Это написано только про женщин. Видимо, растительный покров на теле атрофируется от постоянных эпиляций. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
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Это написано только про женщин. Видимо, растительный покров на теле атрофируется от постоянных эпиляций. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
I feel honored to be under your firm guidance, but I am probably a lost cause. After all, I am sane enough to make my own conclusions based on personal experience and using sources of information that I can trust. I wouldn't fall to your propoganda, although it is useful to have some form of entity on the extreme other side of the spectrum that does nothing but refute anything anybody says.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
I am talking about battles long fought and dogs deep buried. I'll let them lie, I am just stating that your track record doesn't bring about the highest level of confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Who cares about the 60s?? If 200 people die when they are 20 and 200 when they are 100, what's the average age they die? I know PERSONALLY of young Russians that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in Russia is low. It is tragic, but I don't see why it should be russophobic. However, I am always willing to let you go as the exception that proves the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
I am sure the media exaggerates, but in every lie their is a grain of truth. You seem to forget that I used to live in Russia, so I have a pretty good basis of comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
You truly are a comedian, I really take your remarks as they are: pure comical value! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Ye're missing the point, man - any newspaper thit screives shite aboot this kintra is a crappy Mickey Moose paper. Endae ...ing story, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotcher
I know PERSONALLY of young Norwegians and Americans that have died in their 20s tragically and for no reason. [Accidents happen everywhere, you know.] Therefore it is easy to believe that the average mortality age in the US and Norway is low.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Wait a minute, let us clarify one point - you used to say you had lived in Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
I have just received news of an American dying at the age of 17. You folks certainly die young over there.
How wonderfully illogical. If you look at any mortality statistics, be it Russian or American, you'd see that in fact these countries have long life expectancy values.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
You see, my conclusions are based on pure logic. I have experienced Russian life, its hazards, as well as western life, with its hazards. I know people in both countries, I know their family histories. Based on this knowledge plus statistics given from NGOs, UN, etc. etc. who can arguably be called reliable (I mean, why would they say things were better in the Soviet Union than now? Are they communists, pray?) I come to a very logical conclusion. You have no basis for your arguments. They are ultimately flawed.
Huh? I used to say? I haven't stopped saying that yet, sir!Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Look, it seems like you are more reacting to the stream of Western media articles that keep putting Russia in a bad light and you are just backlashing. I can understand, I'd also find that very irritating if someone was constantely critisizing my country. However, going to the extreme and deny that obvious problems exist isn't going to win anyone over. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
It's hard to consider this article as an example of even a semi-decent analysis. Just some numbers thrown together in a huge pile together with anecdotes, faulty interpretations and pure absurdities. I don't deny the existence of a demographic problem in Russia, but the gravity of the situation as pictured and the overall we-are-all-gonna-die tone of the article are beyond criticism. I'll just take a couple of examples from the page 1:
1. Sergei Mironov, chairman of the upper house of Russia's parliament, said last year that if the trend didn't change, the population would fall to 52 million by 2080.
"There will no longer be a great Russia," he said. "It will be torn apart piece by piece, and finally cease to exist."
Why would he say that the trend will not change? The very graph on the right side of the page shows that the trend is changing and it's highly volatile. It's like me having got a 60% return on an investment this year saying, OMG, if this trend continues, I'll be a millionaire in 10 years. OK, I admit, Sergei Mironov is a show-off or a complete idiot, but why quote him? What is the message here? We, the editors, practically agree?
2. That may be an overstatement, but there are serious questions about whether Russia will be able to hold on to its lands along the border with China or field an army, let alone a workforce to support the ill and the elderly.
Is China going to war with Russia? Russia has a territory of 6,592,800 sq mi, while Canada has a comparable territory of 3,854,085 sq mi. The population of Canada is about 30 mln people. Are we soon going to be invaded by the US? Why the workforce would not be able to support the old population, if it dies before the retirement age? Any numbers to support this statement? Or it's just conjured out of thin air?
I could go on if I cared enough.
This article reminded me of the russian-style reporting we have already talked about, and what do you know, the 4th page says "Yakov Ryzhak of The Times' Moscow Bureau contributed to this report" which explains a lot to me. Welcome to the tabloid domain.
There is a reason why I don't read the LA Times. But the underlying facts are still the same.
OK, some numbers may be real, but they are hardly news. All this has been discussed at length on different levels, and even some changes in immigration policies were introduced by the government. That is a known problem but it doesn't justify the doomsday articles entitled "a dying population" implying that there are millions of Russians who are lining up to jump off a ledge. Reading that is like living with a hysterical person who would throw a fit every time you cough or sneeze and demand to drop everything and check it with a doctor immediately and write a will. I understand why people are so annoyed, you may not call that type of person quite insane, but something is not right in the head.
kalinka_vinnie, you do not understand this coutry very well.
Here is an interesting paper on mortality in Russia during the 90s showing that the economic crisis had a profound affect on longevity. The good news is that longevity is once again on the increase.
http://longevity-science.org/Gavrilova-PAA-2001.pdf
The tables are all at the end of the article.
Russia
Year Males Females
1991 63.5 74.3
1992 62.0 73.8
1993 58.9 71.9
1994 57.6 71.2
1995 58.3 71.7
1996 59.8 72.5
1997 60.8 72.9
Compared to some other countries
India 1994-1997 62.4 63.4
China 1994-1997 69.0 73.0
Tunisia 1994-1997 69.5 73.3
United States 1997 73.6 79.4
No need to get defensive about this problem, as everyone knows what a stressor economic struggle can be. Anyway the sources are Russian researchers, so don't blame the west for these statistics.
More on the subject here: http://longevity-science.blogspot.com/
There is no economic struggle. Come to Russia and see for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
No doubt sponsored by your people. I know this type of "researcher".Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
You mean Russia is not a relatively poor country?Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
I don't think it's poor. What's "poor country" anyway? :roll: Do you mean all Russians are poor and starving?Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Nah, I just reckon VendingMachine is being a little narrow minded here. He may be lucky enough not to have any financial issues but the truth is there's a big chunk of the Russian population that does.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
...the funniest thing that sometimes certain people would get incensed by such articles, but then they would read exactly the same thing in some Russian newspaper (which would blame the situation on 'america' and 'liberals') and quote it all around...
Unfortunately the problem is there, although I wouldn't relate it too much to the economy -- the trend started back way before perestroika, and it's present pretty much all over Europe... Reversing it depends of course on the economy and the policies that are taken.
It's the one ranking low on world's standard of living charts. It's a purely economic characteristic and can be measured easily. Russia qualifies.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Laxxy is right in that the population growth rates are not necessarily directly linked to the economic success of a given nation, and articles of that kind are not intellectual reading.
Aye, sir, it is illogical. But you know what? I used your very own sentence, your very own so-called logic - I simply swapped American/Norwegian for Russian. There's a good Russian proverb that applies here, but I'd better keep it to myself for fear you might faint.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
I'm not "lucky enough" - I earn my daily bread in the sweat of my face. My financial prosperity comes from several well run businesses. As for the chunk in question - sure there is one but it's much smaller than you think and certainly people like me vastly outnumber those who belong to that "chunk" as you put it.Quote:
Originally Posted by busurero
My dear western ignorami friends, it is time to learn the truth about this glorious country. I invite you all - please come to this great country and see for yourself. I will personally see to it that you like your experience here.
I understand what you're saying, VM... but get off your "high horse" about Russia. I know you dislike Westerners, and me, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Yep... I've seen some bad stuff in rural Russia... but you've definitely got a "chip on your shoulder", against the U.S.
Siberia is the heart of Russia... more resources and potential than any Western nation... if I could promise you that Russia would benefit equally as a true and fair partner in harvesting Siberia, (timber, precious metals) would you agree?
IF!!!... I could guarantee that the USA would assist and become true partners with Russian businesses, with NO imperialistic actions by the corporations... would you agree that partnerships could be constructed between Russian and U.S. companies to harvest Siberian resources?
Or would you always hate anything Western, and refuse any possibility of
doing business with anything Western?
There comes a time when a business partnership (when all survive) is much better than waste.
VM... you're ignoring the long-term situation... but I expect that you will disagree with me because you've disagreed with me in the past. Because I am Westerner (U.S.), will you always refuse to do business with me?? Even if it is a good business decision?
Even if that business may save and feed your family, friends and workers? Because you're dealing with "Dobry"? (VM and I have had our differences)
Difficult choice. But this is a choice of Russian and U.S. cooperation.
Personally, I prefer constructing business partnerships, to harvest the natural resources in Russia, with protection/preservation for the Russian ecology. Benefit both nations, protect the Russian wilderness, and solidify business friendship.
I'm a dreamer... but it is very possible, certainly.
Think of it as the difference between hunting a wolf alone... or with a companion. :wink:
VM ate his companion ( and companion's wife) :P
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo
I do not dislike Westerners, otherwise I wouldn't be here. Alright, me laddo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobry
I have been, am and intend to go on doing business with Westerners.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobry
There's only one tiny minute detail which you're overlooking - the wolf is not yours, it roams not in your wood but in mine. You're welcome to come to this wood and look at this wolf and stroke its fur but you're not allowed to come and hunt it. By the same token I'm not allowed to come to your pond and catch your shrimp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobry
:wink: I understand, VM.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
But sometimes it is good to have a companion and friend to watch your back. Your wolf can easily sneak up and attack a single person. With a companion, your wolf has much more difficulty. And maybe... I have a rifle that will kill your wolf... a rifle you don't know...
And, if I could choose... I would choose to let you catch as much shrimp as you need, from my sea. Take a few lobsters also... I want my friends to be fed. Understand?
Trust... it is all about trust... and trust must begin at the beginning... the most basic needs. If you trust me enough... I will hand you a good rifle to kill the wolf... save your flock... and we both eat.
We trust each other... share with each other... we live.
We don't trust each other... we die.
Basic survival.
If I can squeeze my post between the wolves and the rabid shrimp...
Well, now that is a killer argument that has "I give up" written all over it. In neon.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
I think you need to clean your glasses, VM, my previous post explained in plain English why your logic fails. If you want, I can copy and paste into this post again so that you won't miss it this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
Apply your Russian proverbs, bridgekeeper, I am not afraid!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalinka_Vinnie
We are practically a big family already.
Actually I would rather you gave us drilling technology. There are enough rifles in Russia :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobry
You are right it's all about trust. But the West doesn't seem to trust anyone that isn't part of the West. And that's just the problem. Everyone else is either seen as uncivilised (19th centuary) or undemocratic (20th centuary), or whatever.
There was plenty of trust in the 90's, but we all know how that turned out didn't we? Again, after 9/11, Putin extended his hand only for it to be abused.
While this may be simplifying the situation, you cannot pin this thing all on us. All that Russia ever got from Europe is invasions (and a few cultural bits and bobs). And Europe seems to pronounce Russia guilty until proven innocent on everything it does.
If we could start over, and build our trust on mutual respect (i.e. not trying to force each others way of life on each other), then I would be the first to sign up. But with the current state of afairs in the world, it's unlikely to happen :cry:
What I would like to add...Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
This is not bad news but well-known facts in Russia.
The Soviet press usually told the truth about the West, too... well, you know... unemployment, economic crisis, homeless people etc. But if you tell a part of the truth, this becomes propaganda. Vinnie, of course you are right. There are a lot of problems in Russia. You lived here and you saw our problems. And I'm sure you like Russia a lot (viking's genes :D ). But agree with me, there are some differences between criticism and propaganda. Unfortunately, articles about Russia in western newspapers look like "enemy propaganda". That's why you can see so many opponents here. That's why we don't discuss our problems here. Here we defend our motherland. :)
If this topic had started with your question about one of our problem, I think we would have started flaying our authorities, police etc. But this topic started with a western article. It looked like the order "Fire!" :)
Yes, I give up - I cannot argue with a man who doesn't want to understand.Quote:
Well, now that is a killer argument that has "I give up" written all over it. In neon.
I think it is you who should do it - I find it truely amazing that you construct an argument yourself but can't really follow it when a similar argument is being directed at you.Quote:
I think you need to clean your glasses, VM, my previous post explained in plain English why your logic fails. If you want, I can copy and paste into this post again so that you won't miss it this time.
First asnwer this question, knigget - African or European swallow?Quote:
Apply your Russian proverbs, bridgekeeper, I am not afraid!
Too many times we've been told lies by all these "dobries" out there and now they're talking about "mutual trust". We know who our friends are - they don't have to suck up to us all of a sudden.
VendingMachine, че-то ты совсем разошелся! Поменьше наездов, побольше аргументов! :wink:
ЗЫ. А Калинку не обижай, он понимает в российской жизни побольше некоторых, хоть и со своей колокольни. :)
Аргументов я приводил более достаточно. Человек уперелся голову в стену и не хочет посмотреть иначе на людей и на ситуацию.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Он разбирается в реалиях этой страны как, например, я разбираюсь в процессах обработки китового уса. В этой стране он, увы, никогда не был, и я это уже доказывал как-то давно тут. Но самое страшное не его незнание (зание можно преобрести, я могу их ему легко передать), а его нежелание узнать страну и людей. Вот это жал.Quote:
ЗЫ. А Калинку не обижай, он понимает в российской жизни побольше некоторых, хоть и со своей колокольни. :)
Всегда проще охаять, разобраться и узнать правду не хочется, особенно если она разрушает его представления.
1. Был. Есть бесспорные доказательства.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
2. Он не дает никакого повода для наездов.
У меня есть доказательства обратного. Те, кто действительно были (а таких я знаю оччень много - почти все прошли через сеть моих отелей), рассуждают иначе. А что есть наезд?
I agree, Alexander :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander
It DOES seem that the western press has had an increasing surge of negative articles about Russia, be they factual or not. They might be inadvertently painting a too grim picture, making people think that life in Russia is a curse :wink:
Luckily we at this forum are smart enough to make our own conclusions, after all we are here to learn the language and culture of this great country!
Ты наверно про себя говоришь? Если обо мне, ты ошибаешься, друг мой. Я всегда готов изменить своё мнение, если я вижу факты. К сожалению, ты предлагаешь только свое слово, что всё совсем не так как все остальные (включая русское государство) говорят и как я сам видел собственными глазами.Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine
блин, теперь я не был в России? Ух ты, хитрый ты человек. Значит я лгу? Все, которые бывали в России должны думать как ты? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by VendingMachine