Sorry if this is off topic :oops:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hVn ... qn22XjN8IA
Beslan marks it's third anniversary.
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Sorry if this is off topic :oops:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hVn ... qn22XjN8IA
Beslan marks it's third anniversary.
The committee wants to place the blame on Putin when they should be campaigning against the Islamic terrorists who took the school hostage in the first place. It sounds to me like typical "Opposition Party" tactics.Quote:
The committee also issued an emotional letter demanding that apologize to the 186 children killed in the massacre.
These people sound like the Democrats here in the USA who want to blame Bush for Hurricane Katrina.. :lol:
Bush caused Katerina! :evil:
I knew that all along!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
yeah.....and he also started a war he can't finish......
Well, what about Kennedy? Did Bush kill him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaica
they have been for a while now, they blame Putin for a failed hostage rescue claiming it was the Russian government that caused the high death toll.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
the forum at www.pravdabeslana.ru/phorum is like a Putin hate site.
Wow, 3 years on already. Of all the terrible things terrorist have inflicted upon the people of the worl, this one sticks in my mind as one of the worst.
Putin has to take some responsibility for the debacle which transpired, same as with the Kursk, more lives may have been saved if rescue
attempts had been planned out better. Accepting help offered wouldnt have been a bad thing either.
That's funny, the forum about Beslan has all the threads locked except one. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaica
lol :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
There's a well-known name for this: "Stockholm syndrome".Quote:
"There is no forgiveness for the authorities for allowing Beslan," one said. "The federal security service and interior ministry are responsible for terror," read another.
This is sympathising with your captors or agressors. Simply suggesting the authorities should take some responsibility for the way events were handled does not automatically mean you have sympathy with the terrorists who murdered these people. The two do not go hand in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
What is the point of having a government if they are not going to handle crisis to the best of their ability?
Of course they did. What makes you assume that they let those kids get killed by terrorists on purpose. Sure, things could have gone better. There is always room for improvement but I'd say that it is counter productive to begin a campaign against Putin.Quote:
What is the point of having a government if they are not going to handle crisis to the best of their ability?
What if:
If your house is being robbed and you call the police. The police comes, breaks down your door, shoots the burgular with machine guns shooting up your apartment at the same time. Even knocking over your cherished ming vase from the 1st century inherited for millions of generations. Then takes the body of the burgular, draws it out to the streets leaving your apartment in shambles. Would you not demand an apology from the police or some sort of reimbursement? :?:
Probably not. And I sure would not blame it on Putin, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Kalinka's analogy is a bit incorrect: we are discussing not "robbery", but extremely brutal hostage taking, and not "burglars" (which want a bit of your property, and not more), but terrorist fanatics, having no respect to hostages lifes, and no care to their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
More appropriate analogy: if terrorists captured you, tied a pack of explosives to you, and kept you for 3 days without food and drink. The police released you, and killed terrorist -- but, unfortunately, wounded you badly. Who is right in this situation: police or terrorist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
I would not take the blame out on the Police if I was wounded as long as the terrorist was killed.
sure, the Police make mistakes, when under an extreme amount of presure like that (having over 1000 hastages, most of them young children) someone is going to die during the operation in order to save others. I think bashing Putin over Beslan is out of line. It was noted that the terrorists set off one of the bombs by accident, the Russian forces took action and if they did not take action agains the terrorists more hostages would have died.
This is what I heard too. Then eyewitnesses say that the terrorists just started shooting at the kids when they ran away. What do these "protesters" think that the police should have done? These "protesters" make me sick. If I was Russian Police I would really give those protesters something to worry about. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jamaica
yeah, at the end they started shooting the kids :(Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
sick pigs that hurt children.
The Russian forces saved a lot of the hostages, what the protesters need to understand is that some died in order to save others.
Why do you think I assume they let the kids be killed on purpose?Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
Why do you think expressing my opinion is beginning a campaign against Putin?
I am doing neither of these things.
In matters like this you cant simply shrug your shoulders and say 'oh well, they did their best'. If this really is Putins best then he should step aside quickly to allow someone much better, it wouldnt be hard to find!
I believe this could have ended with more lives saved and this is not the only time there could have been a better outcome to a crisis. The desisions that were made were not adequate for what was needed. But I say thist not as an attack, but as a way of suggesting lessons should be learned so there is no repeat of the mistakes made.
I agree with all of that. Id rather be wounded during an attempt to free me then die at the hands of hostage takers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaica
Of course the police are only human, as is Putin and I would not wish to be the one having to make decisions in a crisis like this. But anyone who believes what happened was the only thing that could have happened is an unwilling student.
This siege ended in an uncontrolled mess, thats what happened. But it is possible that a better control on this situation, as far as was possible, may have ended it if not sooner, then certanly with at least a few less deaths.
Yes, the terrorists started shooting at everyone, the kids, civilians and police, we saw footage over here, not the worst of what happened but it was bad enough to feel sick to the stomach at what was happeneing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
As for what the police should have done. Not be there in the first place. Instead a highly trained and sophisticated unit who deales solely with these situations should have been sent in. I'm not saying the police were incompetent, I think they were heroes, very brave men. But they didnt have the training needed to be able to deal with this terrible situation. They did their best, but were unable to prevent the terrorists becoming spooked and a spooked terrorist is a killing machine. I dont know if the bomb went off accidentaly or deliberately, but it appears to have happened just after civilians attempted to rescue the hostages. The civilians, as brave as they were, should never have been that close to the building.
Again, I'm not anti anything nor a 'protester', but I am a realist who knows lessons can always be learned towards a better outcome for the next hostage situation.
in a situation like that, or any hostage situation for that matter, we cant even begin to imagine the stress put on these people. its not as simple as it seems while watching it on TV. there are also many factors we cant appreciate. no matter how well trained you are there will always be a chance of error and lives can always be lost. the majority was saved and the terrorists got what they had coming. im sure they reviewed the situation later and discussed other potential courses of action, as is standard. short of being a military tactician, ill hold back any advice on such matters
I'm not here to justify any of the actions of any of the parties in that horrible situation, but why is it that the taking and killing of hostages at a school is terrorism, but the wholesale bombing of the civilian population of Chechnya is not?
Is it in the least bit surprising that the some Chechens would pursue revenge?
Again, I'm not defending revenge, I'm just questioning some of the attitudes about this situation.
It is counter-terrorism :| I am dead serious. Federal forces didn't carpet bomb any part of Chechnya. There were two cities that were heavily damaged by the artillery fire (Grozny and Gudermes) but there had been several ultimatums issued and all the civilians who wanted to leave had left before shelling begun.Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb
The most heavily bombed areas were mountains where little or no civilian targets were present.
Chechens are very much alike the Sicilians. Vendetta (blood feud) is a part of their historical heritage so there is little that can be done. If an older brother gets killed the remaining brother is OBLIGED to revenge. He may not want it himself but it's what he is expected to do.Quote:
Is it in the least bit surprising that the some Chechens would pursue revenge?
Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation. In 1991 some opportunists took control over it by military force and declared the so called independence from the Federal Government. Crimes of all kinds flourished there, and the Chechens themselves suffered the most. Chechnya became the southern terminal for drug traffic through Russia to Europe, there were abductions, murders and so on. During 1995-1996 some attempt was made to restore order and it failed. As a result the Khasavurt truce has been signed (it became possible only after Johar Dudayev, the Chechen leader had been effectively removed from the scene by a radar-guided missile) and Yeltsin withdrew the army from Chechnya, but terrorist attacks continued. In 1999 there were series of explosions, and later Dagestan (the neighbor republic) was INVADED by substantially large military contingent (several thousands armed men). It is unknown still how many Chechens had been killed there by the criminals during 1996-1999 since the government didn't control the situation there but there were many. And finally, in 1999 troops were sent to counter the invasion to Dagestan and to restore order in Chechnya. It wasn't the Russian government who had started this conflict but it had to put an end to this and succeeded. It was war and people die at war. But deliberate killing of children is not the act of war - it's a vile crime committed by people who didn't deserve the right to be called human and it cannot be justified. The terrorists' bodies were never given back to their families, they were buried in pig skins instead - a very suitable coffin for them.Quote:
Again, I'm not defending revenge, I'm just questioning some of the attitudes about this situation.
From your post I deduct that since you have not enough life experience and do not know how tell right from wrong, you therefore have decided everybody is wrong! You sound like a "fence sitter". Grow some balls and pick a side, man!Quote:
Originally Posted by paulb
A very nice "touch."Quote:
The terrorists' bodies were never given back to their families, they were buried in pig skins instead
by your logic paulb, perhaps the Iraqis have a right to terrorist attacks on the US?? two wrongs dont make a right
Believe it or not, DDTushka, but sometimes everybody is wrong! And it takes balls to see the that and not get fooled by one side.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
For pure example, I am sure some Iraqi civilians don't like Al-Qaeda beheading their children just because they saw them smoke, and they probably don't appreciate having their weddings bombed by americans. For them it is easier to see that neither one is right...
Well Kinky ol Boy, there is always somebody who is "Wronger" !!! :D
And that person happens to be you! :lol: :PQuote:
Originally Posted by DDT