# Forum About Russia Immigration to Russia  work for americans in Russia - prestigious-->humble

## kidkboom

This question has been asked before in different ways, but it's been a long time since I've seen the topic discussed. So, sorry if I'm being repetitive. But I've nigh-on exhausted my own ability to research this topic, and I'm really curious what you all might know about the topic, that I don't. 
The topic is Work - particularly, work securable by Americans in Russia. I've been thinking about this for years, and I'm deeply interested in the idea of a prolonged stay in Russia. Granted this won't be immediate, as anything worth doing takes a fair amount of planning, preparation and hard work. But before those three important parts comes another, simpler part - an understanding of the undertaking. 
Now, I've heard about the general need for English teachers in Russia. I've never thought of myself as being the "teacher" type, and my skillset as education is concerned is different.. But this is a hurdle that can be overcome, with hard work. And if it becomes clear that teaching English is the only, or the best route, to being able to stay and work for a period of time in Russia, I'm definitely willing to do that work. My skill and experience are strong, actually, in areas that I'm not sure would be greatly beneficial, namely sales/customer service, and hospitality.. So, I'm thinking as far as experience and education I'll be starting from scratch, either way I approach the situation. 
What kinds of work are available or conceivable in Russia, for an American? Is there a need for Americans in anything beyond teaching English? Is it rare to hear of an American working in Russia? Does it seem a tenable situation - as for instance Russians who come to New York or Chicago for work? - or does it seem less tenable - like an American working in Denmark (LOL) ? 
(Currently I work in hospitality and a branch of my company opened in Moscow recently. However, these branches are owned individually, so there's no ground gained by my working for the corporate office. It does help a bit, to show experience in the industry. But ultimately the person who would decide to employ me at this hotel would be one man, either the owner or his second-in-command; so though I would like to work in Russia in the industry I'm currently in, I'm not sure it's much of an option. On top of that, it's likely that this hotelier would hire native Russians first, over foreigners, unless he had a good reason not to. And it's easy to get help in hospitality from India, which is more local and has a long history of hospitality. So I'm saying this to explain why I'm open to any industry, and not dedicated to hospitality..)  
By the way, I don't demand a career from this, and I don't demand "prestigious" work. I'm willing to do what it takes as far as education and such before attempting this, but I'm not adverse to more "humble" types of work. I'm red-blooded; I won't blanche at waiting tables. =) 
Sorry if this is a silly question, or if I've asked this before - I'm interested in starting some discussion on the topic. (Surely I'm not the only American who thinks it would be great to live in Russia?)

----------


## Eric C.

Hmm, could you specify what kind of salary you're expecting?

----------


## Ramil

I don't think English teachers are needed that badly. My mailbox (for paper mail) is full of spam offering (among other things) 'learning English in 2 weeks using an advanced method from native Engilsh speakers'. Learning English is not a problem at all here.
Secondly, it's rather hard to get officially employed for a foreigner, because of the law stating that if you plan to employ a foreign person you must prove that you won't be able to find a suitable candidate among residents.
Third. Your income as an English teacher won't probably cover your living expenses (although I can only judge by the number of 'offers' in my spambox - the competition is hard, as I imagine). 
There may be some demand for English teachers in smaller cities but your earnings there would be less. Substantially.
If you feel like it, you can try some business here (import some goods from the US), but again, it must be something unique (something that is not made in China  ::  ) 
The best way would be to get employed by an American company who works in Russia and come work here.

----------


## kidkboom

@ eric - Honestly my desire was not much more than to be able to live there for a period of time, so the cost of living would have to be met.. Ramil mentioned I suppose that often teachers don't make enough for this... Teachers are underpaid here in USA too, of course... But there is the infamous story of a time not too long ago when teachers in Russia were being paid in vodka.. (Of course I'm not suggesting this, haha) 
@ Ramil - thank you for the information in your post.. So after reading this, I'm thinking that having somewhat exclusive hospitality certification like CHA or some such might be a better shoe-in-the-door..?  Also I've just read a lot about visa laws and work/visa laws in russia, and it seems a hotel or an employer can be functional in bringing a person in and helping them with having/maintaining the correct paperwork.. It sesms a long shot but maybe there is some merit in the hospitality edge of things.   
Then again, maybe not - =) A lot to consider.. and subsequently more research =) 
{RAMIL} "If you feel like it, you can try some business here (import some goods from the US), but again, it must be something unique (something that is not made in China  ::  ) " <-- "Hm, made in america, let me think... come on, man, think, there's got to be something!!" =))

----------


## Ramil

> {RAMIL} "If you feel like it, you can try some business here (import some goods from the US), but again, it must be something unique (something that is not made in China  ) " <-- "Hm, made in america, let me think... come on, man, think, there's got to be something!!" =))

 Bring dollars. Lots of them, they still have some substantial value here  ::

----------


## Eric C.

> Bring dollars. Lots of them, they still have some substantial value here

 I beg to assume he meant you gotta find something "made in America" in the US. =))

----------


## Hanna

> Bring dollars. Lots of them, they still have some substantial value here

 I assume they are "made in America" and not China, lol.... (but these days, who knows?)

----------


## Neilan

You will struggle to find employers willing to officially employ you as someone has already said - I have been offered an admin job in Moscow with a good salary for me (60,000 rub per month) however it's completely unofficial work or in Western terms illegal work! However that is the situation with many employees in Russia, even Russian employees! I'm in two minds whether to take it or not simply for the lack of stability. I don't have a wealthy family (quite the opposite actually) and if they decide they don't like me or don't want to pay me, then they can do what they want ''vse bez ofitsialnogo oformlenia'' so I don't have a leg to stand on! 
I've worked in a language school in the province before and I'd actually recommend you do something along those lines! You can actually make very decent money because if you choose the province wisely, you'll likely be the only native speaker there and the school is likely to pay you fairly as you'll bring them business! I worked in a language school whilst I was a student in Russia and the pay was not bad for a small town ! 250 roubles per academic hour (each class is 2 academic hours) so 500 roubles per lesson.. I walked away with about 25 000 roubles per month and was still able to study and party  ::  When you compare 25 000 roubles with the average earnings in the smaller towns it is a particularly substantial income! 
You won't make your fortunes doing it but if your aim is to have enough money to live and be able to enjoy yourself for a short period of time 6 months/1 year/2 years then it's a great option! Of course by all means try to get into language schools in Moscow where they'll pay you 1800 roubles per lesson lol but it's a struggle as the competition is very high and unless you come with all sorts of CELTA's and TEFLS' and degrees, you're likely to find that there'll be somebody else who has something you don't waiting in the queue!  ::

----------


## capecoddah

Sochi 2014 Olympics. 
That's what _this_ Crazy Hotel Worker is thinking. 
Why not? I hire 4 Russians every summer. 
Maybe sell condoms on the side ::

----------


## Marcus

English teachers are demanded very highly. It is easier to find private lessons, if you are a teacher of English than almost any other subject and prices are high.

----------


## Valda

> My skill and experience are strong, actually, in areas that I'm not sure would be greatly beneficial, namely sales/customer service, and hospitality.. So, I'm thinking as far as experience and education I'll be starting from scratch, either way I approach the situation.

 Не обязательно, сможете найти работу в этом областью в России если ваш русский достаточно хорошо, но не знаю если это рекомендовано.

----------


## Pavel_B

Why didn't anyone mention renting price in Moscow? Smallest and dirtiest condo in Moscow outskirt costs about $1000 a month. A foreigner from Germany, who works in our company, have to pay $500 a month for the small room in the two bedroom condo which he shares with alcoholic owner. Food price is slightly higher than in the Europe and clothes is also costs more than in Europe. I haven't been in the US but my coworkers who been there told me that cost of living is lower in the US while the incomes are higher.

----------


## Hanna

> Why didn't anyone mention renting price in Moscow? Smallest and dirtiest condo in Moscow outskirt costs about $1000 a month. A foreigner from Germany, who works in our company, have to pay $500 a month for the small room in the two bedroom condo which he shares with alcoholic owner. Food price is slightly higher than in the Europe and clothes is also costs more than in Europe. I haven't been in the US but my coworkers who been there told me that cost of living is lower in the US while the incomes are higher.

 Ok so what is the rent for a nice flat 2 bedrooms (not luxury but clean and renovated) in a good area?
Do Russians count bedrooms only when describing flats, i.e a "two bedroom" flat has three rooms because there is also a living room? Or do they count all rooms, i.e "three room flat" which includes the living room?  
What is the age of most houses is Moscow and what is considered good vintage for a house? I.e. good soundproofing between flats, high ceiling, no plumbing problems etc.  
People who move to other countries need to find out what to expect before they move, if not be prepared to put up with the unexpected without complaining! Anyway, as far as I am aware the housing situation in Moscow is infamous going back at least 50 years if not a decade. I.e. a shortage of houses. How could anyone not have heard of it. The prices you are describing are still better than London, and from what I understand - New York, Tokyo and lots of other industrialised cities of the same size.

----------


## Hoax

> Ok so what is the rent for a nice flat 2 bedrooms (not luxury but clean and renovated) in a good area?
> Do Russians count bedrooms only when describing flats, i.e a "two  bedroom" flat has three rooms because there is also a living room? Or do  they count all rooms, i.e "three room flat" which includes the living  room?  
> What is the age of most houses is Moscow and what is considered good  vintage for a house? I.e. good soundproofing between flats, high  ceiling, no plumbing problems etc.  
> People who move to other countries need to find out what to expect  before they move, if not be prepared to put up with the unexpected  without complaining! Anyway, as far as I am aware the housing situation  in Moscow is infamous going back at least 50 years if not a decade. I.e.  a shortage of houses. How could anyone not have heard of it. The prices  you are describing are still better than London, and from what I  understand - New York, Tokyo and lots of other industrialised cities of  the same size.

 When we rent a flat we count all the rooms that are available there,  living room is very often used as an additional bedroom. When you rent a  2-room flat you will have a living room with a convertible sofa and a  bedroom, that's all. If they say they have a 1-room flat for you, there will be the only room indeed (with a convertible sofa again, they are very popular here =) The rooms will be a bit bigger than people usually  have in Europe (because we have less of them in our appartaments) but  not much, and if the building is a so called Khrushchyovka than the rooms will be tiny, dirty and you will know everything about your neighbours in no time without meeting them at all.  
The  renting price of acceptable 1-room flat starts from 600$. The renting  price of flats you described starts from 1000$ a month, the closer to  the center the higher price will be. Moscow is a huge citty, people  living far from the center spend two hours to get to job and then two  more hours to get back home in the evening. Of cause people would prefer  to live closer to their jobs and there are no vacant land for building  apartaments there, that is why the flats in the center cost a fortune.  
Unless it is a new and expensive residential compaund (like this one)  the houses will be old. Some new areas are being build up at the edge  of the city but the houses there are of bearing-wall construction and  they don't have any soundproofing at all, that is why Russian people  like carpets that much.  img_lublino2.jpg

----------


## Basil77

> Ok so what is the rent for a nice flat 2 bedrooms (not luxury but clean and renovated) in a good area?
> Do Russians count bedrooms only when describing flats, i.e a "two bedroom" flat has three rooms because there is also a living room? Or do they count all rooms, i.e "three room flat" which includes the living room?  
> What is the age of most houses is Moscow and what is considered good vintage for a house? I.e. good soundproofing between flats, high ceiling, no plumbing problems etc.  
> People who move to other countries need to find out what to expect before they move, if not be prepared to put up with the unexpected without complaining! Anyway, as far as I am aware the housing situation in Moscow is infamous going back at least 50 years if not a decade. I.e. a shortage of houses. How could anyone not have heard of it. The prices you are describing are still better than London, and from what I understand - New York, Tokyo and lots of other industrialised cities of the same size.

 We count all rooms except kitchen, toilet and bathroom, livingroom included. "Clean and renovated" flat in Moscow with two bedrooms and a livingroom would cost you about $2 000 - $3 000 to rent a month and about $ 700 000 to buy. But this kind of flat is considered a luxury. The same flat in typical "commieblock" neighbourhood would cost slightly less: about $ 1 700 -$2 000 to rent and about $ 500 000 to buy. The same flat in the town where I live (50 km east from Moscow) will cost about $700-$1000 a month to rent and about $200 000 - $250 000 to buy. Note that the average monthly salary in Moscow is about $1000-$1500 a month (in my town it's $500-$800 a month), so most people just can't afford to rent a flat. "Working class" people live in flats wich they inherited from their parents/grandparents or have to rent just a room. At the same time most "blue collar" jobs in Moscow occupied by Middle Asia immigrants who usually live in sewers, attics, garbage cans or rent a 1-room flat for 20-30 people. 
 Moscow buidings you could classify by following categories: 
 1) Old houses (pre-revolutionary era) - extremly expensive but at the same time often in bad condition, if not recently renovated (wooden beams in overlaps and such things), most of them are not used for living anymore but remade into offices and other public places.     
 2) Stalin era buildings - very expensive and usually good (high celing, big rooms, houses are elegant and located in prestigious neigbourhood). These houses were built for Soviet elite of that times.    
 3) Khrushchev era buildings - most ugly ones, with very small flats, usually has 5-floors and without an elevator. Could be pretty expensive if located in "prestigious" neghbourhood (near metro station or so). There is an urban legend that Soviet builders have "borrowed" the design for these from Nazi Germany architects who designed it as a barracks for their future "slavische untermenschen" slaves. The bitter irony is that the people who defeated Nazis often lived in worse living conditions at that time.    
4) 1970-1980 era buldings - slightly upgraded versions of "krushchevkas", has more floors, an elevator, rooms, kitchen and facilities are bigger, every flat has a balcony. I live in such a flat.    
5) Modern "economy class" buildings - ok flats, but often are built with a very bad quality.    
6) Modern "luxury class" buildings - pompous and very expensive, quality of building can be bad too (leaking pipes, сracking walls, etc.)

----------


## Hoax

Basil77, I guess the topicstarter doesn't mean the luxury property, I was serching for a flat about a year and a half ago and it was about 18-20k for a 1-room flat conviently located near the МКАД (Moscow ring road) - Tushinskaya/Shukinskaya/Mitino subway stations. I guess the same price will be for the flats in the place like Lyublino, though I don't like the southern part of the city at all. Those in the area of Prospect Mira were a bit more expensive and and for 35-40k it was possible to find a 2-room flat , that is about 1150$ 
The only problam is that we don't earn enough to ren flats even for 800$ a month   ::

----------


## Basil77

> Basil77, I guess the topicstarter doesn't mean the luxury property, I was serching for a flat about a year and a half ago and it was about 18-20k for a 1-room flat conviently located near the МКАД (Moscow ring road) - Tushinskaya/Shukinskaya/Mitino subway stations. I guess the same price will be for the flats in the place like Lyublino, though I don't like the southern part of the city at all. Those in the area of Prospect Mira were a bit more expensive and and for 35-40k it was possible to find a 2-room flat , that is about 1150$ 
> The only problam is that we don't earn enough to ren flats even for 800$ a month

 The question was about  "clean and renovated" flat with 2 beedrooms and a livingtoom. The closest analog I can think of is трёшка в доме бизнесс-класса с хорошим ремонтом и мебелью. So I posted the prices for such type of flat. The flats you described are usually located in very ugly houses wich halls and elevators are covered with graffity and piss, garbage near house's front doors etc. Flats for rent in such houses usually has very ugly if any furniture, very dirty and with cocroaches.

----------


## Hoax

I would never consider those flats you give as an example. You forget or don't know that there are a lot of new apartaments built, in Mitino for example and Strogino (And also in the south of Moscow though I still haven't change my oppinion about that part), some even have grannies guarding the entrance hall and protecting walls from graffity and piss, there is one where my uncle rents a flat.

----------


## Basil77

I still stand that average renting price in Moscow for a decent 3-rooms flat would be no less than $1700 a month. A friend of mine inherited 2-rooms flat in Kuzminki from his grandmother (it's an ordinary flat in a panel house buit in early 80s) and he leases it for 50 000 roubles (about $ 1600) a month. He says there isn't a problem at all to find a customer for such a price.

----------


## Hanna

> I still stand that average renting price in Moscow for a decent 3-rooms flat would be no less than $1700 a month. A friend of mine inherited 2-rooms flat in Kuzminki from his grandmother (it's an ordinary flat in a panel house buit in early 80s) and he leases it for 50 000 roubles (about $ 1600) a month. He says there isn't a problem at all to find a customer for such a price.

 This would be an absolutely acceptable rent for me, on my current London salary. No problem, I could be more. 
However, I doubt I'd get the salary I'm getting now, if I was a Russian person doing this job in Moscow! So it's not really comparable.  Probably, I'd get about half and then I that rent would be a stretch.  
What is included? Heating, Water, electricity, gas? Any taxes for just living?  
I took a 1 bedroom flat after returning to London. I really don't like this building, and the plumbing is* terrible.* There is a mobile phone mast on the roof, very bad for health. 
But I'm saving money and at least I am in one of the best areas of town. It sounds like Moscow is worse than London, but probably not by much. 
I often compare with Sweden, and Sweden has the same Wild West situation with rental flats that Moscow seems to have. People get/got rental contracts from the state. They can basically never lose the contract unless they forfeit paying the rent and they are obviously not living there for several years. If the person who has the contract dies, a relative who is registered as living with the person who died can take over the contract. 
So everybody is after such a state contract; they are traded, bought illegally and any number of shady arrangements. Meanwhile private lets are very regulated and overpriced, and everything is getting privatised, so the best thing to do is to buy a place.   
Although the actual flats in Sweden are better quality than London, the supply/demand is totally messed up.
The housing styles in Sweden are much more similar to Russia than the UK, but the equivalent of "Khrustevska" are a bit better quality, I think. Not much though. They had a plan to build 1 million flats in 5 years, and the result is quantity over quality. Only immigrants and very poor people live there now.  
I stayed in a flat of the post war Stalin era when I was in Minsk. 2 rooms, good sized and high ceilings, facing the street. It wasn't a grand building, but it was very nice indeed. If I could live like that in London I'd absolutely love it. I probably could afford a mortgage for a similar type of flat in Stockholm, but never in London. Very good location too, next to the Peace monument.  
Definitely no noise from the neighbours and it had been fully renovated to an excellent standard. I think it had original parquet floor. No fireplaces. I was really surprised how good the quality was. The plumbing was good too.  
You entered the house from a nice yard behind the building, with a little park, playground etc. But for such a nice building it had an very ugly front door (painted steel) and the stairs were spartan and quite ugly. Not vandalised, just ugly. I have no idea how the owner got hold of the flat, and I am pretty sure he charged me at least double the real rent for staying there. The other inhabitants were locals, but at least half the cars parked outside had German or Russian license plates. No idea what the deal was with that.    
I have a positive view of Russia as a place to live - if you have money! And also Belarus and to a lesser degree Ukraine (saw a lot of poverty there). However, these are terrible places to be poor! What if something happened.... 
I think it would be really scary to live somewhere that has literally NO social security and people are totally dependent on friends and family if something happens. I don't know what the exact healthcare situation is.  
Moscow property prices will probably continue to go up, up, up - since there simply isn't enough supply to match the demand.

----------


## Hanna

> I still stand that average renting price in Moscow for a decent 3-rooms flat would be no less than $1700 a month. A friend of mine inherited 2-rooms flat in Kuzminki from his grandmother (it's an ordinary flat in a panel house buit in early 80s) and he leases it for 50 000 roubles (about $ 1600) a month. He says there isn't a problem at all to find a customer for such a price.

 Thanks for your super-informative posts!  
This would be an absolutely acceptable rent for me, on my current London salary. No problem, I could be more. 
However, I doubt I'd get the salary I'm getting now, if I was a Russian person doing this job in Moscow! So it's not really comparable.  Probably, I'd get about half and then I that rent would be a stretch.  
What is included? Heating, Water, electricity, gas? Any taxes for just living?  
I took a 1 bedroom flat after returning to London. I really don't like this building, and the plumbing is* terrible.* There is a mobile phone mast on the roof, very bad for health. 
But I'm saving money and at least I am in one of the best areas of town. It sounds like Moscow is worse than London, but probably not by much. 
I often compare with Sweden, and Sweden has the same Wild West situation with rental flats that Moscow seems to have. People get/got rental contracts from the state but there isn't enough supply so the system is corrupt. 
The housing styles in Sweden are much more similar to Russia than the UK, but the equivalent of "Khrustevska" are a bit better quality, I think. Not much though. They had a plan to build 1 million flats in 5 years, and the result is quantity over quality. Only immigrants and very poor people live there now.  
I stayed in a flat of the post war Stalin era when I visited Minsk. 2 rooms, good sized and high ceilings, facing the street. It wasn't a grand building, but it was very nice indeed. If I could live like that in London I'd absolutely love it. I probably could afford a mortgage for a similar type of flat in Stockholm, but never in London. Very good location too, next to the Peace monument. Definitely no noise from the neighbours and it had been fully renovated to an excellent standard. I think it had original parquet floor. No fireplaces. The plumbing was good too.  
You entered the house from a nice yard behind the building, with a little park, playground etc. But for such a nice building it had an very ugly front door (painted steel) and the stairs were spartan and quite ugly. Not vandalised, just ugly. I have no idea how the owner got hold of the flat, and I am pretty sure he charged me at least double the real rent for staying there. The other inhabitants were locals, but at least half the cars parked outside had German or Russian license plates. No idea what the deal was with that.    
I have a positive view of Russia as a place to live - if you have money! And also Belarus and to a lesser degree Ukraine (saw a lot of poverty there). However, these are terrible places to be poor! What if something happened.... 
I think it would be really scary to live somewhere that has literally NO social security and people are totally dependent on friends and family if something happens. I don't know what the exact healthcare situation is. 
Moscow property prices will probably continue to go up, up, up!   

> The question was about  "clean and renovated" flat  with 2 beedrooms and a livingtoom. The closest analog I can think of is  трёшка в доме бизнесс-класса с хорошим ремонтом и мебелью. So I posted  the prices for such type of flat. The flats you described are usually  located in very ugly houses wich halls and elevators are covered with  graffity and piss, garbage near house's front doors etc. Flats for rent  in such houses usually has very ugly if any furniture, very dirty and  with cocroaches.

 Something should be done. People who have to live in buildings like that may end up being depressed or becoming alcoholics. It's disgusting. It's anti-social behaviour. I am all in favour for really hard punishments for people who vandalize public property. 
As for me, if I ever lived in Russia, it probably wouldn't be in Moscow -- it just doesn't really attract me.

----------


## Doomer

> Something should be done. People who have to live in buildings like that may end up being depressed or becoming alcoholics. It's disgusting. It's anti-social behaviour. I am all in favour for really hard punishments for people who vandalize public property.

 Majority(at least half) of Russian population lives in places like that. It is really favorable for philosophical thoughts, maybe that's what's called "Russian soul"  ::  
You hit bullseye about depression and alcoholism. I just remembered a joke from Soviet time about alcoholism  
Наш папа - трансформатор
220 получает, 127 отдает,
А на остальное гудит!   

> As for me, if I ever lived in Russia, it probably wouldn't be in Moscow -- it just doesn't really attract me.

 Moscow is the only place in Russia where you can get somewhat acceptable living conditions
In other places people survive, not live: buying new clothes is considered a big deal, a car is a luxury object, you need to retrench everything for a year to afford somewhat decent vacation, most people cannot afford to buy a house, to buy a flat you need two persons working full time (salary of one person is not enough to cover mortgage), etc.  
If I'm not mistaken average salary of a well educated person working in Moscow is around $2000 per month(after taxes), however if you go away from Moscow to other regions, the salary will drop to $300-$1200, depending on the place. Food and clothes cost about the same as in Moscow, the only difference is real estate prices
Marriage is often a way to survive (because both people work)
You can do the math 
Most Russians don't give a damn about "free will", "human rights", "spying government" and other stuff like that, their minds occupied by more down-to-earth problems like what to eat today, how to pay your bills, how to make lives of your kids a little easier and brighter
I don't think you'll like to live there, Hanna, you are from another planet called "European civilization". China would probably understand Russia better than Europe. 
PS:
In other thread I said that you should move to Russia because they don't care about your fingerprints and I see you considering it. That was a joke, Hanna.
To give you a straight answer on this: Hell no f-ing way you should move to Russia or even consider it. Count your blessings and thank Christ, Buddha, Allah and Ganesha that you don't live in Russia this time. 
PPS: 
I really hope that Russia will be better in time, because I really miss Russian culture, language and my friends but that probably won't happen in my lifetime, sorry for the sorrow post

----------


## Eric C.

> Majority(at least half) of Russian population lives in places like that. It is really favorable for philosophical thoughts, maybe that's what's called "Russian soul"  
> Moscow is the only place in Russia where you can get somewhat acceptable living conditions
> In other places people survive, not live: buying new clothes is considered a big deal, a car is a luxury object, you need to retrench everything for a year to afford somewhat decent vacation, most people cannot afford to buy a house, to buy a flat you need two persons working full time (salary of one person is not enough to cover mortgage), etc.  
> If I'm not mistaken average salary of a well educated person working in Moscow is around $2000 per month(after taxes), however if you go away from Moscow to other regions, the salary will drop to $300-$1200, depending on the place. Food and clothes cost about the same as in Moscow, the only difference is real estate prices
> Marriage is often a way to survive (because both people work)
> You can do the math 
> Most Russians don't give a damn about "free will", "human rights", "spying government" and other stuff like that, their minds occupied by more down-to-earth problems like what to eat today, how to pay your bills, how to make lives of your kids a little easier and brighter
> I don't think you'll like to live there, Hanna, you are from another planet called "European civilization". China would probably understand Russia better than Europe.

 You're right man, leftists can understand what sh*tty life feels like for others, but not for themselves.

----------


## Hanna

> I don't think you'll like to live there, Hanna, you are from another planet called "European civilization". China would probably understand Russia better than Europe. 
> PS:
> In other thread I said that you should move to Russia because they don't care about your fingerprints and I see you considering it. That was a joke, Hanna.
> To give you a straight answer on this: Hell no f-ing way you should move to Russia or even consider it. Count your blessings and thank Christ, Buddha, Allah and Ganesha that you don't live in Russia this time. 
> PPS: 
> I really hope that Russia will be better in time, because I really miss Russian culture, language and my friends but that probably won't happen in my lifetime, sorry for the sorrow post

 
I take your point on this Doomer. Yeah, I certainly would not want to live in Russia on a teacher's salary, or a some average administrators salary. I realise Western Europe is better off in this respect. I don't necessarily want to live there at all, but I wouldn 't rule it out either. It's got some qualities that I like; climate, nature, people (well, some..), and cool with such a big country. St Petersburg is less than an hour by plane from where I grew up, but like 5 times bigger or something like that.  
I have no idea what to make of the current government in Russia. How democratic they are, or aren't... and whether this matters a lot or not. How corrupt they are or aren't (seems to me, probably "a lot) and what their vision for the future is.  
Here is why I think there might be hope for the future though: 
Russia is very rich in natural assets and has a well educated population. If people can be convinced to stay in the country, if corruption can be reduced and if foreign companies are not allowed to exploit natural assets without re-investing locally (as happens in Africa etc) then the prognosis should be good. Another 10-15 years maybe. 
Also, Russia isn't living above its means in the same way as Western Europe is. The debt could backfire on us any time. There are more potential Greeces, and they are in a worse shape than Russia right now.  
Since Putin will probably stay in office for another 8 years, I hope he uses that time to really clamp down on corruption and stop anti-social behaviour.

----------


## maxmixiv

> Since Putin will probably stay in office for another 8 years, I hope he uses that time to really clamp down on corruption and stop anti-social behaviour.

 I am afraid these things are not in his plans. Too small problems for such big person. Worse of all is the people are getting used to the fact, their cities, entrances, nature are doomed to be dirt, stinky and inconvenient. Almost got used. 
Though we are renovating our flats and dachas vigorously  ::

----------


## Marcus

Ханна, но мы не такие уж несчастные. В России тоже много своих возможностей.

----------


## Hanna

> I am afraid these things are not in his plans. Too small problems for such big person. Worse of all is the people are getting used to the fact, their cities, entrances, nature are doomed to be dirt, stinky and inconvenient. Almost got used. 
> Though we are renovating our flats and dachas vigorously

 Well I actually haven't been to Russia in modern times (I was meaning to, in 2011, but I got stuck with visa problems lol - so I ended up staying in Belarus instead — at least they speak Russian...) 
I was in Ukraine and Belarus and I lenjoyed both, for different reasons. I realise Russia is quite different. Of course, I am not blind to the problems I saw in Ukraine and Belarus either. Ukraine so big and so much renovation needed. Belarus; how long can they keep their system going the wind of the rest of Europe?  
I think all three countries will go their different ways; they have embarked on quite different routes and the people are just not the same (I used to think so, but there is a big difference).  
It's sad to hear that there are such big differences between the big towns in Russia, and the countryside. 
It's hard to relate to what the difficulties are for people in their everyday lives - I simply can't imagine it because I just don't have enough experience. I see on TV people living in houses that look like you'd freeze to death in the winter and scraping by on $500 /month. I can't even imagine how they manage.  
If I lived in Russia I would probably be reasonably comfortable since I have a good job in IT. But who knows what kind of a person I'd be if I'd been through everything that happened in the ex-USSR in the 1990s. I probably wouldn't have had the same opportunities. People who survived those hard times and managed to create a good life one way or another really have my respect.  
I'm just very fascinated by the Russian speaking culture, the language and the people. Really can't explain it - it's a bit like people say they are "anglophiles" or "francophile". Well I guess I am a "russophile", lol! 
However I am not naive enough to think that it would be a good idea to move to Russia without a very good plan, budget and a solid job offer, and even under such circumstances I'd think twice. There'd have to be a good reason, not just because it seemed cool. It's not for the faint-hearted, I think!

----------


## Doomer

> If I lived in Russia I would probably be reasonably comfortable since I have a good job in IT.

 Are you saying that you would have a good job in IT if you'd move to Russia? 
Also what does "good" mean here? Well payed or something else? 
I think it would be harder to find a job for foreigner than for native in any country
There are many smart IT guys in Russia but it doesn't mean that they make good money, it all depends on location, all roads lead to Rome, I mean to Moscow  ::

----------


## 14Russian

What is your interest in Russia, Hanna?   You don't seem to know much about it.    ::  
How is Ukraine and Belarus different?   Isn't Ukraine more like Western Europe nowadays?   The EU is pumping money into the other countries so while the cartel benefits, many of these countries are in financial trouble.   They have different systems but similar problems.

----------


## 14Russian

> I am afraid these things are not in his plans. Too small problems for such big person. Worse of all is the people are getting used to the fact, their cities, entrances, nature are doomed to be dirt, stinky and inconvenient. Almost got used. 
> Though we are renovating our flats and dachas vigorously

 I was talking to a Russian about the loss of hot water for extended periods in the summer.   That might happen the odd day in some countries.   So, when will Putin sell off some of his assets so that you can afford hot water some days?

----------


## Hanna

> Are you saying that you would have a good job in IT if you'd move to Russia? 
> Also what does "good" mean here? Well payed or something else? 
> I think it would be harder to find a job for foreigner than for native in any country
> There are many smart IT guys in Russia but it doesn't mean that they make good money, it all depends on location, all roads lead to Rome, I mean to Moscow

 I am not moving to Russia, don't worry about it. Just speculating  ::    

> What is your interest in Russia, Hanna?   You don't seem to know much about it.

 No, right you are, I don't know a thing about it. So what is the real story about Russia and what do you base your insights on?

----------


## maxmixiv

Hanna, if you decide to come to Omsk some day...  http://www.gorod55.ru/board/rabota/v...iod=0&userId=0
hint: 10000р = $300   

> when will Putin sell off some of his assets so that you can afford hot water some days

 Putin might be Tsar, but he is not a magician.
Nothing can be done about it.

----------


## Hanna

To clarify what I said earlier on this: I have no particular plans to move to Russia although I wouldn't rule it out, if something good came along.  
One of the reasons I picked up Russian back in 2009 was that everybody in IT in Scandinavia seemed to have dealings with Russia/Ukraine. I read several articles about senior figures in the IT world in Scandinavia saying they wished they had studied Russian because it would have come in handy, it's a sought after skill etc. Cool, I thought. I know the basics, why not?! I thought it would be useful and interesting, I kind of liked Russian in school, despite finding it incredibly hard. I was inspired to pick it up. I had some vague notion that it would be useful in my career, but in reality this seems doubtful to me today. 
However at that time 2008 or 2009, I was not up to date on the situation in Russia whatsoever, so it was interesting to inform myself and find out the real story behind the headlines.  
So sure, with regards to moving there, you should never say never! 
But in reality, due to my poor language skills, I could not compete with locals on equal terms (I have a management job). The only realistic way I could get a good job in Russia would be in some kind of expat arrangement whereby I would come in as a representative for a foreign company, and again, I struggle to see why I would be offered such a job. Anyone with solid business level skills in Russian would be better qualified, plus, it's a job for someone with thicker skin than me...  
And as Doomer points out; it's not like there aren't talented people in Russia with the same skills that I have! Only if a company wanted to implement some methodology or way of working that's new to Russia (Read: American/British/European methodology...)  would I have an advantage! And I personally have never liked situations where senior people from abroad come in and tell local people how to work. I wouldn't be good at doing it myself!. So the whole idea of me working in Russia is basically a non-starter; moving to Russia is not comparable to relocating to another EU country like France or Luxembourg. I mean; the visa issue to start with! 
Basically such a move would be complicated on many different levels and I just don't have enough incentive. Things may change in the future, but right now it does not seem realistic. 
Also; the housing situation and traffic in Moscow is quite offputting. 
But again, never say never!  
And on the money front: Living on a very low salary?! Are people in IT management jobs doing that in Russia?  It's one thing to keep a budget, to save and use the savings later. It's quite another to live on a tight budget simply because it's the only way you can survive. Obviously I would not swap my current situation for something highly economically disadvantagous, as a single woman. That would just be irresponsible and stupid.

----------


## maxmixiv

> Are people in IT management jobs doing that in Russia?

 Some companies offer 10x salaries than the others. But if you want really "good money" you HAVE to pass to Moscow first. Or, become "big local boss" of some big enterprise.

----------


## Doomer

> And on the money front: Living on a very low salary?! Are people in IT management jobs doing that in Russia?  It's one thing to keep a budget, to save and use the savings later. It's quite another to live on a tight budget simply because it's the only way you can survive. Obviously I would not swap my current situation for something highly economically disadvantagous, as a single woman. That would just be irresponsible and stupid.

 Yes, people are
Again, all roads lead to Moscow but even Moscow is not panacea. And if you move to Moscow you need to be able to digest Moscow's lifestyle that is not suitable for every person.
Moscow is New York of Russia, if you know what I mean.

----------


## Hanna

> Yes, people are
> Again, all roads lead to Moscow but even Moscow is not panacea. And if you move to Moscow you need to be able to digest Moscow's lifestyle that is not suitable for every person.
> Moscow is New York of Russia, if you know what I mean.

 Yes, I don't think Moscow would appeal that much to me, as a place to live. Too big and too crowded & hectic. London is too much for me really, and I understand Moscow is even bigger.  
I have visited St Petersburg (really liked it!) but it was a very long time ago, and a lot of things have probably changed beyond recognition. I have heard it's got lots of nice wine bars, nice cafes and quite good shopping. Also that part of town was fixed up (it was quite noticeably run-down when I was there - definitely no winebars or chic cafes). I'll definitely go there sometime soon. 
I also visited Kiev (cool, funky bustling, historical city - but I didn't see enough of it!) and Minsk (elegant, clean, safe and lots of parks/green areas).  
Some places in Russia I want to see: Samara, Kazan, Viborg, Novosibirsk, Omsk.... spa towns on the Black Sea. Plenty more actually. It's just like the USA: So much variation, so many cool places.

----------


## Marcus

In Moscow IT specialists make good money, I think.

----------


## Hanna

> In Moscow IT specialists make good money, I think.

 Yeah, but you know, I'd probably not be thick skinned enough for it anyway! 
The business / office climate in Russia is quite tough, isn't it?

----------


## Hanna

I have another comment on quality of life in Russia: 
Ok, as I've  said -- I've never been in Moscow, and last time I was Russia, it was a  different country - not comparable with now. 
So all I have to judge  on is TV, media and what people are saying here -  so there is a  possibility that I got the wrong end of the stick:  
However -- Looking at TV from Moscow, it certainly doesn't seem like most people are poor. 
On  the street scenes from Moscow that I am seeing on TV, people are  wearing nice clothes: There are cafés, shops, department stores etc. It  doesn't seem different from the rest of Europe - in fact a lot of people  are better dressed. I've seen interviews from regular people's homes  and they have nice kitchens, modern furniture, living rooms filled with  tech stuff, including large TVs - kids with computers in their rooms,  people have specialist sports equipment and sometimes even a dacha. Same  living standards as Western Europe, but minus the consumer debt that a  lot of people have. 
People here are talking about holidays abroad and technical gadgets they are buying. 
All  this seems to suggest that middle class and upper class people now have  a perfectly acceptable lifestyle and that this came about *very* fast (comparing with the miserable scenes from the 1990s).  
 I realise that Moscow is quite different from smaller cities, and that people have higher incomes.  
It  definitely seems like the majority of people are reasonably off. Also, I  think Russian households have less consumer debt, and Russia as a  country has almost no foreign debt at all. Also my impression is that  there is an underclass in Russia - immigrants, retired people and low  skilled workers who are quite poor and struggle from paycheck to  paycheck. Also - my impression is that outside of the biggest cities,  incomes are lower and people don't necessarily have the lifestyle I  described above - but still eating, heating their houses and paying rent  comfortably.

----------


## dtrq

Strong belief in Russia being one of the poorest countries is one of traits of Russian mentality  :: 
Plus, being middle class citizen here doesn't mean you are not living in typical "хрущобы"-commieblock с зассаным подъездом.

----------


## Hanna

> Strong belief in Russia being one of the poorest countries is one of traits of Russian mentality 
> Plus, being middle class citizen here doesn't mean you are not living in typical "хрущобы"-commieblock с зассаным подъездом.

 Yes, you lot need to snap out of it.  ::  I don't believe it's that poor. At least not for regular people with normal intelligence, education and willingness to work. (but my impression is, that it's bad for pensioners, and that's terrible!).  
Russia is doing a lot better than many other places in Eastern and Southern Europe as well. Like Romania, Bulgaria, Portugal, Greece. Moldova and Latvia.  
Russia has no national debt and is flowing with oil, gas and valuable minerals. People are educated.  My country has no oil and gas.   Look at Norway, the richest or second richest country in Europe. They have only a fraction of oil and gas compared with Russia. And they are rolling in money. Plus, unlike Western Europe, you are getting richer, not poorer.  
And about these square grey apartment blocks - yes they are ugly, but all countries have them, Eastern Europe just has more. Because industralisation happened faster and later than some other places. 
And the problem with them is not so much they layout but how they are treated and who lives in them.  
If people pee in the stairs, and vandalise, if there is rubbish and litter around and it's run down - then it's grim and horrible. 
Like the house in Lilya 4-ever , if you've seen that film - soooo depressing and horrible  (but that was in the 1990s) and I think it was supposed to be a "noir" film. Also, it was filmed in Estonia, not Russia. They just pretended it was in Russia.   
I was in Belarus 2 years ago and saw tons of houses like that. I am used to seeing them in Sweden, but they are always vandalised and full of grim looking people and immigrants. Depressing.  
However, in Belarus, they had fixed up these houses, painted and renovated, planted bushes and flowers outside and generally made it nice with parks and playgrounds. The people who lived there looked nice and respectable. With this in mind; as long as the ceiling is high, and not a claustrophobic feel, I would think it's allright. I'm living right now in a building from the 1920s which is listed as having architectural value (surprising, it's ugly!) so everything is from the 1920s, they are not allowed to change anything. Driving me crazy and I'm moving soon.

----------


## xdns

Here is the (quite sad) summary of current state of affairs in Russia from the latest Global Wealth Report 2013 by Credit Suisse:   

> *No sign of growth* 
> At the time of transition there were hopes that Russia would convert to a high skilled, high income economy with strong social protection programs inherited from Soviet Union days. This is almost a parody of what happened in practice. Efforts were made at the outset to distribute state assets equitably: most of the housing stock was given away to residents and shares in Gazprom were allocated to Russian citizens. But other choice assets in resource-rich companies went to the chosen few, and subsequent developments in a nation notorious for weak institutions have reinforced the importance of political connections rather than entrepreneurial talent. 
> While recent performance has been bearish, the period since 2000 as a whole has seen robust growth fuelled by a
> world hungry for the natural resources that Russia has in abundance. Using constant exchange rates, household wealth has risen over sevenfold, from USD 1,650 in 2000 to USD 11,900 today. Wealth per adult is above the post-crisis low, but still remains below the peak in 2007 when the US dollar bought less than 25 rubles: now it buys 33. 
> The quality of wealth data for Russia is mixed. Financial balance sheets are now available and indicate that gross
> financial assets average a little over USD 4,000. There is less information on real assets, but our estimates suggest that they are twice as high. Personal debt grew by a factor of 20 during 2000-07, and although it seems low in absolute terms, at USD 2,550 per adult, it amounts to 19% of gross assets. 
> Russia has the highest level of wealth inequality in the world, apart from small Caribbean nations with resident
> billionaires. Worldwide, there is one billionaire for every USD 170 billion in household wealth; Russia has one for every USD 11 billion. Worldwide, billionaires collectively account for 1%–2% of total household wealth; in Russia today 110 billionaires own 35% of all wealth.

----------


## Hanna

I have actually worked for CSFB which you are quoting. One word: Bull$hit. You can't trust a word that any bank says, seriously. See my post about the Max Keiser show. The man might be mad and rude, but he's right.  
I'm not saying there is no truth to what they write, but half the time the analysts are plain wrong about what they say; or they write something up in order for it to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. 
They have one word on their minds: Profit. Anything else is secondary. Including truth and integrity. The bank analysts didn't see the 2008 crisis coming at all, just for starters.  
You should judge your country based on your own standards and expectations. I read that there is a new credit rating agency starting, to fairly assess the BRIC countries, since they are routinely put down by the US based existing credit ratings agencies. The new one was Chinese-Russian, I think.  
I'm aware of the inequality problem in Russia though, and it's tragic. How utterly ironic, after 70 years of socialism, that such a thing should happen. The system needed improving, not scrapping - that's my view. 
So the fruits of 70 years of "building communism" are sold for peanuts to corrupt people who became oligarchs, while the people who did the actual work are struggling to survive on $1000 /month with market prices for heating and food. In hindsight it's so obvious that it was insanity, isn't it! Any other course of action would have been smarter. It was as if all of Russia just capitulated and didn't care what happened anymore - apart from the oligarchs. But for the last 10 years or so, there's been a great comeback and I for one am happy to see it, since I like Russia!  
What's done is done, so I guess Plan B is to just try to become a competitive market economy. 
Seems to me that Putin is trying his best but that you need to get rid of the oligarchs and corruption. 
I think you should do it the Russian way. In a way that suits Russia's needs, not according to what international banksters say... And don't be defeatist. 
Sorry I'm ranting a bit, it's just my personal view - please take with a pinch of salt! I'm sure everyone in Russia has considered all these things many times over, and my view is nothing new.

----------

