# Forum About Russia Culture and History  Russian Firarms

## 44 Canon

Alright guys, here is your Russian firearm thread.
 I'll address some history, mechanics, use dynamics etc.
..................................................  ...................... 
Alright, here we go:  *HISTORY*  *Mosin Nagent M-91*
 Although ugly as sin and cheap to buy ( sometimes as little as $39.99 ), the Mosin Nagent M-91 has probably made more determination of the worlds fate then any other rifle has all on it's own.
 M-91 stands for: Model 1891.
 Based on the massive Berdan II black powder rifle, it was introduced in the the Russian armed forces in 1891 and was adopted by many armed forces who made many variants of it.
 It was a scrawny and "funky" looking rifle, yet high quality for it's time and chambered for the 7.62x54 Soviet cartridge, the .300 Win Mag of it's day.
 Although affective in combat, the high quality made it hard to keep up production of, and was extremely short in supply in WW II, so much that they often pared Russian soldiers up in to teams of 2 and 3, with only one Mosin Nagent rifle among them.
 Between late September of 1942 and early February of 1943, the M-91 would make as large of an impact on the fate of the world as the Normandy Invasion. The bloodiest battle in the history of mankind, and ultimately one of the most important began at the industrial City of Stalingrad, marking the beginning of 4 1/2 winter months of pure hell on earth, ultimately claiming an estimate of one million, forty thousand lives, leaving only sixty thousand survivors.
 Had the Russians lost this battle, the Soviet Union would have been at Hitler's disposal and Normandy probably never would have happened.
  Despite the high efficiency of the German army against Russian troops, they found themselves at the mercy of Russian snipers, armed with Scoped M-91s, who hid in rubble and killed German commanders crippling entire German units. The most famous of all were, Anatoly Chekov, who made an extremely vast range of kills ( over 200 ) and Vassili Zaitsev who made the most important, including German sniper Heinz Thorwald, an event which inspired the movie: Enemy at the Gates.
 Although the last major use of the Rifle ( as far as I've herd of ) dates to the 1950s, the rifle is well used for various purposes to this day.  *SKS*
 The SKS was created by Sargie Simonov in 1945, as an attempt to put an affordable semi-auto main battle rifle in to soldiers hands. It was used throughout the later part of WW II and on through the cold war. It is chambered for the 7.62x39 Soviet cartridge, which was designed for the gun.  *AK-47*
 AK-47 stands for: Avtomat Kalashnikove model 1947. It was created by Mikhail Kalashnikove in 1947. Although often compared to the SKS, it was ultimately based on the German STG-44 assault rifle and possibly the utmost pioneer of .22 Caliber combat rifles, originally chambered for the 5.45x39 Soviet cartridge.
 The first dependable model was to high in quality and expensive to mass produce as they wanted to, therefore, later modifications were made to reduce the cost of production. They also made later models in 7.62x39 Soviet. Over time, the Kalashnikove action had found it's way to other east European countries and to the middle east and Asia, ultimately resulting in hundreds of different AK variants, including: The Romanian AKM-74, the Russian AKM-74U, the Norinco ( Chinese ) MAK-90, the Maddi ( Egyptian ) AKM-104 etc.
 Despite it's lack of accuracy, in the Viet Nam war, it had proven to be highly affective against US troops armed with the newer, much higher quality M-16 rifle, where US troops often abandoned their M-16s for AK rifles taken from dead enemy troops.
 The Kalashnikove action, legendary for it's strength, reliability and insensitivity to dirt and abuse, became the central basis for virtually all East European military automatic rifle actions including the SVD ( Dragunov ) Sniper rifle, PK series machine guns Saiga shotguns and the higher quality Vepertm rifles only to name a few.
 The Kalashnikove style action is used still to this day by both civilized and 3rd world military forces. 
..................................................  ....   *FAQ*
* Q. What are the most common Russian military cartridges? 
A. 5.45x39 Soviet, 7.62x39 Soviet, 7.62x54 Soviet, 7.62x25 Tokarev, 9x18 Makarov, and 14.5 ( pretty much the same thing as the .50BMG. 
* Q. Are all AKs full-auto? 
A. No. Most civilian ones are semi-auto, and military ones have different rates of fire. AKs are very common in my life, and when I here of an AK rifle, I think of a semi-auto rifle. 
* Q. Is the AK the best combat rifle in the world? 
A. Different strokes for different folks. In short, no. The newer HK assault rifles, such as the SL-8, G-36, M-91 etc. are better then AKs in every way. Lighter, better balance, tougher, more reliable and accurate. 
* Q. I herd their is such thing as a shotgun AK. Is this true. 
A. Yes. It's called the Saiga. They make it in 12 gauge and 410 gauge. 
* Q. Is Mikhail Kalashnikove still alive? If so, what kind of guy is he? 
A. Last I checked, he is still alive. I have seen interviews with him and him interacting with people. Seams like an average Joe.  
* Q. Do they make a .22LR AK? 
A. Yes. Armscor makes an AK-22. 
* Q. Are Original Mosin Nagent rifles available to US citizens on the market? 
A. Yes. Big 5 Sporting Goods carries them. 
* Q. What is the difference between the German and Russian Makarov pistol? 
A. Their are quite a few. The main ones are that the Russian one usually comes with adjustable sights and can take double stack magazines. 
* Q. Is the 9x18 Makarov the same thing as the 9mm Luger/Para? 
A. No. The 9mm Luger is the 9x19. The .380ACP is the 9x17, so the 9x18 is perfectly in between the 9mm Luger and .380ACP. 
* Q. Is it true that the Russians used a magnum powered semi-auto handgun. 
A. You could say that. The 7.62x25 Tokarev is well considered a magnum powered handgun round, and has been used by the Russians. 
* Q. What was the finest rifle ever used by the Russians? 
A. Like anything, it depends upon what for. In general, I myself find the SVD to be the finest. 
* Q. What is the finest pistol the Russians ever used? 
A. Alike the above, it all depends. I THINK the Russians used the CZ-52 at some point. If so, I would say that would be it, hands down. If not, then probably a cross between the Makarov and the Tokarev. 
* Q. Is the Makarov pistol simply called the Makarov, or is their another name for it? 
A. The real name for it is the Baikal IJ-70. 
* Q. Did the Russians ever make SMGs? 
A. Yes, they made some of the finest ever. One older model is called the PPSH-41. They also make one that is just as good ( maybe even better ) called the Bizon.
 The PPSH-41 was made in 7.62x25 Tokarev. The Bizon is made in .380ACP, 9x18 Makarov, 9mm Luger and 7.62x25 Tokarev.  
* Q. Is Russian military ammo really damp, blackish, or is that just for movies? 
A. The Russians use steel cased ammo for economic reasons. It has a dark green ( almost grayish ) corrosion resistant coating on it. They also sometimes use a cheaper, thinner brass, although you usually see this in the hands of middle eastern forces. 
* Q. Do the Russians make any hunting ammo for civilians that fit military rifles? 
A. Yes, they have a few companies who do, although most of them are nothing more then military surplus ammo with holes drilled in the tips. Wolf and Bear are the most common companies who make this ammo, although others do as well. 
* Q. Are their any Russian companies who make airguns? 
A. Yes, IZH, and Anics make airguns. 
* Q. Is it true that AK-47 Ammo bounces around in peoples bodies when they hit? 
A. In short, no. Any bullet can change course upon impact, and the 5.45x39 is no exception in either direction.
  This rumor generally comes from 2 sources. One is that .22LR and .22 Magnum bullets have been known to swish around in peoples skulls and be a bit better about course changing then most bullets. The other ( and most relevant ) is that the 55gr 5.56 bullet was designed very specifically to work with the M-16s rifling to rotate when traveling, causing it to split in to two pieces of twisted metal upon impact with bone, which then will spin around through the targets body like blenders wrecking havoc. However, this round will only do this when fired from the M-16/AR-15 and only 55gr or lighter ball bullets.  
* Q. What is the overall best combat rifle round? 
A. Opinions differ. To the best of my studies and experience, I would have to go with the 8mm Mauser, followed closely by the 7.62x51 NATO/.308. Unfortunately, few good combat rifles exist in 8mm Mauser, while many exist in 7.62 NATO. 
* Q. Are their any bullets ( Russian or not ) that are listed as one caliber but are truly another? 
A. Yes. The .380ACP is actually .355 ( .36 Caliber ), the .38 Special is actually .357 ( .36 caliber ), the .44 Magnum is actually a .430 ( .43 Caliber ) and the .50BMG is actually 510 ( .51 Caliber.
 Their are many others, but that's just a few.

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## JJ

I didn't read it carefully, I am sorry I am using my friend's computer and we are drinking some beer  ::  but I see at least 2 mistakes. First, AK-47 and Sturmgewer-44 have absolutely diffrent scheme. Second, they make Saiga in 12, 20, and .410 gauge.

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## waxwing

Somebody get on the phone to Michael Moore. He needs to make a documentary about this guy  ::

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## Tu-160

> Russian Firarms

 Еловое вооружение русских :Ы:

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## 44 Canon

> First, AK-47 and Sturmgewer-44 have absolutely diffrent scheme.

  They do have quite a few differences, but none the less, the AK-47 was based on it.
 Go search around, their is quite a bit of information on the relationship between the 2 rifles.    

> Somebody get on the phone to Michael Moore. He needs to make a documentary about this guy

 LOL. I'de love to have my way with that guy. He's a total nutcase.   

> Second, they make Saiga in 12, 20, and .410

  Yes. They also make the Saiga in .308 and other rifle chamberings. EAA imports quite a few different variants of the Saiga. 
 you can look at what the Saiga is made in here at these links:  http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/r ... ndex.shtml  http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/s ... ndex.shtml

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## майк

> *AK-47*

 Overall length: 870mm
Length of barrel: 415mm
Length of sighting line: 378mm
Weight of magazine empty: .42kg
Weight of magazine loaded: .92kg
Overall weight with loaded magazine: 4.8kg
Chamber pressure: 4550psi
The 7.62mm kalashnikov rifle fire a 7.2662mm round and one ...
Muzzel velocity: 710m/s, 2380ft/s
Specified rate of fire: 600 rounds per minute
600 rounds per minute, 600 rounds per minute
Service ammunition is divided into full cartridge and special purpose cartridge
Full ammunition is *used to destroy personel*
Special ammunition depending upton its construction is designed for target
identification and correction of fire, ignition of fuel and hightly flammable objects and for destroying lightly armoured targets.
Tracer cartridges are used for target indication, fire adjustment, signal purposes and destroying personel. And destroying personel.
Tracer bullets can ignite, can ignite
The path of the bullet is indicated by a red flame.
AP incendary cartridges are used for destroying fuel, gasoline and for
destroying targets protected by thin armour
The standard cartridge for the AK-47 is the M43
Bullet weight: 122 grains
Powder weight: 25 grains
Standard markings: full ... and ... No colour
Tracer model: 3453?
API model BZ: black and red tip
Special cartridges: Plastic blank with metal case
Finland: Red, Germany: Black, Egypt: White.
Shortrange cartridges: full, round nosed, laquered steel case, white tip.
Tracer: round nosed, laquered steel case, white about green tip. 
There are three basic models of the AK;
AK47: Machine receiver, no bayonet lug, polished bolt and bolt carrier, side ...
AKM: Stamped receiver, bayonet lug, ... bolt, ... tail full grip, side a...
RPK: Squad MMG, larger barrel, equiped with 70 round drum loading, 40
round box magazine or may even a 74 round magazine. Despite those specifications, its ....
Extensive experiance ... approx 800 rounds per minute. 
Destroy personel
Destroy personel
Destroy personel  Finland Red, Egypt White - lyrics by Sisters of Mercy

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## 44 Canon

Here is some history of the AK-47 from different angles:  http://www.vodka47.com/biography.htm  http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/AK-47 
Like most guns of that time, the AK-47 was developed off of a series of techknowledgies, which many of came directly from the STG-44, which the AK-47 was mostly structured after.

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## bad manners

> First, AK-47 and Sturmgewer-44 have absolutely diffrent scheme.
> 			
> 		   They do have quite a few differences, but none the less, the AK-47 was based on it.
>  Go search around, their is quite a bit of information on the relationship between the 2 rifles.

 The only similarity between the two is the gas action and some external similarity. The rest is totally different. Gas action is not something that first appeared on StG-44, and the looks, well... the Mosin riffle mentioned above is very similar to, say, Mauser K98 -- does that mean the Mauser was based on the Mosin?

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## 44 Canon

You confirmed exactly what I stated about the relationship between the AK and the STG-44, in addition to the placement of the gas system ( or would the M-1 Carbine or Garands have made better sense?
 The Mosin Nagent and Mauser K-98 are later evolutions of much deeper design evolution. Ultimately, the Enfield .303 Rifles, Springfield M-1903, Mauser K-98 and Mosin Nagent have intertwined history behind their designs, among other Bolt-Actions.
 At the time of the AK-47, their was little history to go by regarding gas-operated rifles.
 Their are 3 main gas systems used throughout history. One is common in Europe, the other 2 are common in the US.
 The ones in the US, use a rotating bolt and are operated by a bolt carrier. The rotating bolt, you could say is literally the same sort of bolt as on a bolt-action rifle, except in stead of having a handle, it USUALLY just has a connector that fits in to the bolt carrier, which then operates the bolt. These actions usually have the gas piston below the barrel ( see the M-1 Garand and M-14 ) or occasionally, on the side, such as the M-1 Carbine. The gas piston or ram is impacted by gas and pressed against the bolt carrier, launching it back cycling the action.
 Another is the same thing, except instead of having a gas piston or gas ram in a separate housing ( the tub seen on top of AK barrels, or below M-1 Garand barrels ),  it is located on the bolt carrier it's self, where the gas is channeled directly against it, cycling the action. The M-16 and Desert Eagle use this sort of action.
 European action is much different. It has a straight bolt, which puts shells in to the chamber just like a recoil operated firearm. The bolt is locked down by a straight moving bolt carrier, which USUALLY goes forward after the bolt has chambered a round, locking the action down while at it. Then the gas ram is charged by gas/gun blast and presses against the gas piston, launching the bolt carrier back, cycling the action.
 Their are 2 different variants, an open one and a closed one. At the time, the only true examples their were of the open one were the G-43 and the VERY NEWLY designed SKS.
 The only example of the closed one was the STG-44. Mikhail Kalashnikove very specifically chose to do a closed action design, and the therefore, based it after that of the STG-44.
 The rest of the gun was built entirely on notes and various characteristics of that evolution series, which had been under way for a few years.

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## translationsnmru

> *HISTORY*  *Mosin Nagent M-91*
>  Although ugly as sin and cheap to buy ( sometimes as little as $39.99 ), the Mosin Nagent M-91 has probably made more determination of the worlds fate then any other rifle has all on it's own.
>  M-91 stands for: Model 1891.

 In Russia, it was was called "Трёхлинейная винтовка образца 1891 года" Later Soviet modifications were called Mosin Rifle Model 1891/1930.     

> It was a scrawny and "funky" looking rifle, yet high quality for it's time and chambered for the 7.62x54 Soviet cartridge, the .300 Win Mag of it's day.

 Soviet cartridge in 1891?  ::   It was a *Russian* cartridge  :: . 
And, by the way, you forgot to mention that Mosin rifle was a repeater with a 5-round magazine.    

> b]SKS[/b]
>  The SKS was created by Sargie Simonov in 1945, as an attempt to put an affordable semi-auto main battle rifle in to soldiers hands. It was used throughout the later part of WW II and on through the cold war. It is chambered for the 7.62x39 Soviet cartridge, which was designed for the gun.

 Several errors here. 
1) Sergei Simonov
2) SKS was created in 1944
3) It was only used briefly durinfg WWII, and only the experimental batch made for testing purposes. It was only in 1949 that SKS became a standard issue in the Soviet Army (along with AK).
4) The 7.62x39 rounds were not made for SKS, it is the other way around. First, the new intermediate cartridge was designed and approved for use in 1943. It is often called "cartrige model 1943" in Russia (Патрон образца 1943 года). After that, several firearm designers started making the firearms for this cartrige.    

> *AK-47*
>  AK-47 stands for: Avtomat Kalashnikove model 1947. It was created by Mikhail Kalashnikove in 1947. ...and possibly the utmost pioneer of .22 Caliber combat rifles, originally chambered for the 5.45x39 Soviet cartridge...
>  They also made later models in 7.62x39 Soviet.

 The original AK-47 was designed for 7.62x39 rounds. The 5.45 ammo simply did not exist back then. Do your homework  :: . It was AK-74 that was made for 5.45.     

> * Q. Are all AKs full-auto? 
> A. No. Most civilian ones are semi-auto, and military ones have different rates of fire. AKs are very common in my life, and when I here of an AK rifle, I think of a semi-auto rifle.

 You can think whatever you please, but AK is full auto. The civilians models based on AK (Saiga etc) are *not* AK. They are *based* on AK, and that's that   

> * Q. Is the Makarov pistol simply called the Makarov, or is their another name for it? 
> A. The real name for it is the Baikal IJ-70.

 Baikal is the name of the exportation model. The *real* official and original name is "Пистолет Макарова" (Makarov Pistol) or "ПМ" (PM)   

> * Q. Did the Russians ever make SMGs? 
> A. Yes, they made some of the finest ever. One older model is called the PPSH-41. They also make one that is just as good ( maybe even better ) called the Bizon.
>  The PPSH-41 was made in 7.62x25 Tokarev. The Bizon is made in .380ACP, 9x18 Makarov, 9mm Luger and 7.62x25 Tokarev.

 There were many other models as well.     

> * Q. Is it true that AK-47 Ammo bounces around in peoples bodies when they hit? 
> A. In short, no. Any bullet can change course upon impact, and the 5.45x39 is no exception in either direction.
>   This rumor generally comes from 2 sources. One is that .22LR and .22 Magnum bullets have been known to swish around in peoples skulls and be a bit better about course changing then most bullets. The other ( and most relevant ) is that the 55gr 5.56 bullet was designed very specifically to work with the M-16s rifling to rotate when traveling, causing it to split in to two pieces of twisted metal upon impact with bone, which then will spin around through the targets body like blenders wrecking havoc. However, this round will only do this when fired from the M-16/AR-15 and only 55gr or lighter ball bullets.

 You got mixed up here. The AK-47 bullet does not bounce around in the victim's body, but the AK-74 bullet does. It was designed this way.

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## bad manners

> The only example of the closed one was the STG-44. Mikhail Kalashnikove very specifically chose to do a closed action design, and the therefore, based it after that of the STG-44.

 He started the design as early as in 1943, and while he obviously had seen StG-44 before 1947, saying "it was based on StG-44" is simply wrong. Gas action, closed or not, had been known for quite some time before StG-44. I may even grant you that the appearance is similar because he liked some ergonomics of StG-44, but the mechanics is totally different. Suffice it to say that you can use AK-47 to paddle through dirt for weeks and it will just work, and StG-44 had to be cleaned after every few clips, and even then it had a tendency to jam.

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## waxwing

badmanners, how is it that you know absolutely EVERYTHING?
What kind of Faustian deal have you struck to gain this omniscience?
You are an expert on :
English
Russian (well, duh)
dentistry
firearms
history (of the entire world, probably) 
and just about everything else that has ever been discussed here. 
So, if I were to strike up a discussion or write a paragraph on something really obscure, let's see, PWR nuclear reactors, you'd be able to correct several points. Right? 
Mind you, please don't think I object to your corrections, certainly not in this thread...

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## bad manners

> badmanners, how is it that you know absolutely EVERYTHING?
> What kind of Faustian deal have you struck to gain this omniscience?
> You are an expert on :
> English

 I take that as a compliment.   

> Russian (well, duh)

 That too.   

> dentistry

 Experienced customer. And my natural curiosity.   

> firearms
> history (of the entire world, probably)

 Not the entire world, but quite a bit on anything European-related. Especially the military part of it. And firearms naturally occur there all the time -- but I do not really care much about them per se.   

> something really obscure, let's see, PWR nuclear reactors, you'd be able to correct several points. Right?

 Right. I hold an advanced degree in mathematics and is deeply interested in physics (especially astrophysics and cosmology).

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## waxwing

Of course, it was a compliment if anything, or more just an expression of surprise -  but don't forget Kipling's advice about praise  ::  
Did you get to do any fun maths/phys like relativity etc.?

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## Pravit

He also seems to be an expert in computer programming, mind you, and at least one other European language. Although that "is" in his last sentence did seem a bit odd...  ::

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## JJ

> Like most guns of that time, the AK-47 was developed off of a series of techknowledgies, which many of came directly from the STG-44, which the AK-47 was mostly structured after.

 I've read links but I found them less informative than  this one - AK-47 and  this one - Sturmgehver-44.
And look at these pics:   
Don't you think the 1st and the 2nd pics are more similar than the 1st and the 3rd pics? At least they are bent both but AK is not.  ::

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## bad manners

> Although that "is" in his last sentence did seem a bit odd...

  ::  How very mean of you, Pravit. How many more typos and grave grammatical crimes have been committed by others in this very thread?

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## joysof

Aye, and he calls _me_ a pedant. Cheek of it, really.

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## Pravit

Alas, but there is honour among pedants!

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## joysof

Can't tell you how pleasing it is to see a 'u' in 'honour'. Kudos due.

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## Pravit

Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.

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## Alexi

> Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.

 I'm confused, which means I'll blame America   ::   
Is 'honour' spelt _honour_ in America and _honor_ everywhere else, or is it vice-versa?..

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## Friendy

> Originally Posted by Pravit  Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.   I'm confused, which means I'll blame America    
> Is 'honour' spelt _honour_ in America and _honor_ everywhere else, or is it vice-versa?..

 "Honor" is the American spelling and Pravit used the British one.

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## Alexi

> Originally Posted by Alexi        Originally Posted by Pravit  Yeah, ever since Waxwing made me an "honourary Britisher" I began to spell correctly.   I'm confused, which means I'll blame America    
> Is 'honour' spelt _honour_ in America and _honor_ everywhere else, or is it vice-versa?..   "Honor" is the American spelling and Pravit used the British one.

 Wow! Now I know the correct spelling for Australia!..

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## waxwing

While we're on this subject, I should mention that a local University teacher has asked me for help in setting a thesis/dissertation to one of her students. She wants it to be about the importing of American idiom (and other language features) into British English. Anyone got any suggestions for good web links on that kind of thing? 
Alexi, another similar example is color/colour. These kind of spelling variations come from words which have a 'French-style' spelling which is not phonetically obvious; there are lots of them. Another one is center/centre.

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## Friendy

> Wow! Now I know the correct spelling for Australia!..

 Which one?

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## Alexi

> These kind of spelling variations come from words which have a 'French-style' spelling which is not phonetically obvious; there are lots of them

 Yes, we French... I mean, Australians are a dying breed.   ::     

> Which one?

 You know, I'm actually not sure... again.   ::   I'd say 'honour', but 'honor' seems pretty acceptable too. 
I just guess 'honour'/'honor' is a word I don't encounter very much, compared to 'centre' and 'colour', which is interesting.

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## 44 Canon

> The original AK-47 was designed for 7.62x39 rounds. The 5.45 ammo simply did not exist back then. Do your homework . It was AK-74 that was made for 5.45.

 I stand corrected.   

> I may even grant you that the appearance is similar because he liked some ergonomics of STG-44, but the mechanics is totally different.

  Yeah, that's what I said.
 Mechanics wise, their not very different. I work with gas systems hands on all the time. The vast majority of the European gas systems are all the same basis which is the closed straight bolt. This includes the AK, STG-44, FAL, G-3, STG-58, G-36, SL-8 and I believe even the Enfield SA-80 uses the straight bolt, closed action. The mechanical difference between these actions is very minor 80% of the time. Gas powered firearms that are dirt sensitive and need to be cleaned often are usually ones that have tight action, poorly fit recoil springs or both. Alike some of the mouser autos of it's time, the STG-44 has tight action. The AK has some of the better recoil springs for the job and very loose and rugged action. All you need is stiff recoil springs and tighter machining on the very design and the AK will be just as sensitive. Like so, MOST European autos that are abuse and ammo sensitive can have these problems fixed just by action tuning, replacement of the recoil springs and sometimes trimming the gas ram a bit.   

> You got mixed up here. The AK-47 bullet does not bounce around in the victim's body, but the AK-74 bullet does. It was designed this way.

  The 5.45x39 DOES NOT have this feature and was never designed to. It does have a hefty energy transfer, but so do all high power rounds, including the 7.62x39.
 Actually, their is no bullet on earth that is designed to actually bounce around in peoples bodies, and very few actually do by high %.
 The 5.45x39 cartridge DOES tend to swerve through the target, but so do many light weight rounds.
 I have put thousands of rounds from various firearms and ammo brands and types ( including Russian surplus guns and ammo ) and very few have truly had actual bounced around. The most consistent ballistics I have seen out of any of them was from the M-1 Carbine, where shooting at a tar bucket at 70 yards, it tumbled to some extent upon impact almost every time.
 In terms of actual flat out deflecting in different direction upon entry, the only round I have really seen do this more often then once in a while is the 7.62x39 Soviet fired from an SKS.
 One I have not actually tested is the AR-15 and 5.56 rounds. I have on the other hand examined cavities made by other shooters, shortly after fire and the very light grain bullets make a mess from hell almost 100% of the time when penetrating solid surfaces.
 The 55gr 5.56 round was specially designed and engineered to do this from ground zero, and the M-16 was designed specifically to work with this round.
 The M-16 uses a 1-7 twist that rotates the bullet while in flight, causing the rear of the bullet to rotate and when it hits bone, it splits from the rear forward in to fragments of twisted metal, which spin through the targets body like a blender.    

> It was only used briefly during WWII, and only the experimental batch made for testing purposes. It was only in 1949 that SKS became a standard issue in the Soviet Army (along with AK).

   And you never contradicted what I said.   

> You can think whatever you please, but AK is full auto. The civilians models based on AK (Saiga etc) are not AK. They are based on AK, and that's that

  Saiga is based on the Kalashnikove action, but it's not exactly a civilian only firearm ( at least not the shotguns, which ARE used by the Russian military.
 Just about every AK model that exists in other countries armed forces exists in the hands of American citizens, I can even direct you to some places who carry them.
 Maybe I worded myself wrong, and should have said "yes and no", but the fact is, AKs exist in both rates of fire.

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## translationsnmru

> [quote:1ost0kdk]You got mixed up here. The AK-47 bullet does not bounce around in the victim's body, but the AK-74 bullet does. It was designed this way.

  The 5.45x39 DOES NOT have this feature and was never designed to. [/quote:1ost0kdk]  
Take an original army 5.45x39 cartridge, extract the bullet and cut it lengthwise. You'll see that there is an empty space in the front part of the bullet. It was made this way in order to shift the center of gavity to the rear part of the bullet. When such a bullet hits a body, it changes its orientation: it starts moving sideways and, then botton first. 
needless to say, it changes the direction of its motion as well. You can see a picture of a cavity made by such a bullet here: http://oskarweapons.narod.ru/defeatcapable.htm#2   

> The 5.45x39 cartridge DOES tend to swerve through the target, but so do many light weight rounds.

 Well, ok, we agree then that it does swerve, right? That is what I wanted to say. It does not bounce, but it does swerve. I am happy with this definition  :: . And it WAS designed this way, see above.      

> [quote:1ost0kdk]You can think whatever you please, but AK is full auto. The civilians models based on AK (Saiga etc) are not AK. They are based on AK, and that's that

  Just about every AK model that exists in other countries armed forces exists in the hands of American citizens, I can even direct you to some places who carry them.
 Maybe I worded myself wrong, and should have said "yes and no", but the fact is, AKs exist in both rates of fire.[/quote:1ost0kdk] 
I am quite willing to belive  that some stores in US sell AK clones or mutilated AKs with the automatic fire function disabled. But it must be a mere handful compared to millions AKs all over the world that do have this function. I guess you can find similarly changed F14s or other assault rifles as well. Does it makes them non-automatic as well?  
The original AK, as well as AKM, AK-74, AKSU etc, etc, all have a switch that lets you switch between automatic and single fire.  
In the countries where fully automatic weapons cannot be legally sold to civilians, this swich can be removed or jammed to disable the automatic fire function. But just as I told above, it is just a handful compared to millions and millions of full-auto AKs. 
Even the name itself—"Avtomat Kalashnikova"—suggests that it is an automatic weapon, because only fully automatic firearms (assault rifles and SMGs) are called "avtomat" in Russian.

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## translationsnmru

On a different note:  

> A. Yes. Armscor makes an AK-22.

 You might want to add to your FAQ that there is also a modification of AKM chambered for 5.56x45 NATO rounds. I think Izhmash used to make them, not sure if they still do. I have also heard of numerous clones made in different countries for this 5.56 NATO cartridge. 
And just for history lovers: the first prototype of assault rifles was Avtomat Fyodorova, a fully automatic rifle chambered for 6.5mm Japanese rifle cartrige. Its design was completed in 1916, but because of the revolutions that took place in 1917, only a little more than 3 thousand of these rifles were ever manufactured.

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## 44 Canon

I am aware of the 5.56 AK. I have a friend who has a Norinco MAK-90 chambered for this round. It's the finest shooting .22 Caliber combat rifle I've ever fired.
 Below is a picture of it taken at one of our get togethers:   
 I've seen them for sale for 1000 dollars. I among other people have questioned why so expensive. Now that I've fired one, I can see why.   

> I am quite willing to believe that some stores in US sell AK clones or mutilated AKs with the automatic fire function disabled. But it must be a mere handful compared to millions AKs all over the world that do have this function.

  Their are millions of them in the US. The Kalashnikove rifle is one of the many military rifles that is in endless supply in the US.
 They now make single stack variants do to the AW ban but the ones that have been imported, which consist of probably 80% or more of the worlds retired AKs have been imported to the US prior to the AWB and are still readily available. I believe that all that has been done is they have had semi-auto trigger groups made and installed.
 Probably as much as 40% or more of the AKs in existence are in the hands of American civilians and companies.
 When you get a chance, take a peak at a shotgun news or gunlist magazine. You will see more AK, G-3 and STG-58 style rifles in their then anything else, and every one you see represents hundreds, maybe even thousands of them in stock. 
You can also check out some of these guys:  http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop/c ... id=Firearm  http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/rifles/ak47/ak47.html  http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Rifles.html  http://catalog.jgsales.com/     

> Well, ok, we agree then that it does swerve, right? That is what I wanted to say. It does not bounce, but it does swerve. I am happy with this definition . And it WAS designed this way, see above.

  I understand.   

> Take an original army 5.45x39 cartridge, extract the bullet and cut it lengthwise. You'll see that there is an empty space in the front part of the bullet.

  Yeah, I know. I've done just that. The 7.62x39 also has this feature.   

> I guess you can find similarly changed F14s or other assault rifles as well. Does it makes them non-automatic as well?

  F-14? F-14 is a fighter jet. You must be referring to the M-14?
 They make a few civilian variants of the M-14, the Springfield M-1A, the Armscorp M-21A ( which is one of the US military current Sniper Rifles ), Norinco M-305 etc.
 The Springfield M-1A however is built using match grade parts and I am not sure what the M-21A uses but I THINK they are pretty similar to the M-1A, while the Norinco M-305, which is probably the better die hard rifle of the bunch uses it's own parts.
 Fulton Armory Makes an M-14 that uses their own design receiver and USGI parts, and supposedly, is the finest M-14 variant out their out of the box. M-14 rifles are a very high-end rifle and probably the most versatile rifle on earth, so people who own them usually put allot of money in to them and research their parts and have mixtures of different brands and quality parts. According to the people who have been in to M-14s the longest, know them the best and have seen all the different variants, all seam to agree that the best one is one with a polytech receiver, heat treated and assembled by Fulton Armory.
 The M-1A is made primarily as a target rifle, so while it's one of the better quality makes, it's not the best of them for multi-purpose use. I've also seen one that exploded on the shooter, who did nothing wrong.   

> And just for history lovers: the first prototype of assault rifles was Avtomat Fyodorova, a fully automatic rifle chambered for 6.5mm Japanese rifle cartrige. Its design was completed in 1916, but because of the revolutions that took place in 1917, only a little more than 3 thousand of these rifles were ever manufactured.

  Yeah, if my memory serves me correctly, that rifle used roller-lock action. IMHO, that and roller-bolt ( which both use the same principal ) are the very best auto actions out their. I am working on a .454 Casaul auto-pistol that uses roller-lock action.

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## bad manners

> Probably as much as 40% or more of the AKs in existence are in the hands of American civilians and companies.

 Quit smoking that stuff, Canon. Fast!

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## 44 Canon

Do some actual research on this, fast.

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## bad manners

I did. Figures vary between 30 and 100 million AKs in existence. If we take your "40%" that means between 12 and 40 million of them in the USA, let's take 26, the average. Because they are not used by the US military, that means they are almost entirely possessed by the US civilians. According to www.census.gov, there are about 100 million "occupied housing units" in the USA. Which means, _according to you_, that every fourth household possesses an AK. 
I start wondering why I am arguing with you, as you so obviously live in a parallel world.

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## 44 Canon

If you visit the central and southern US, the numbers of households who have AKs are quite vast indeed.
 In addition, their are plenty of people who own multitudes of AKs, in fact, a large portion of people who own AKs, maybe even the majority own between 3 and 10 of them, and I've met a number of people who collect AKs, and have over 20, and lets not forget the millions currently in the possession of American companies, awaiting sale, where a large portion of them are being kept by companies for parts sale as well as a very alive market for AKs.
 Their are also organizations who have them for sports, acting, and even the black market.
 Their is an estimate of between 1 and 6 million AK-47s in the US ALONE, and the 47 isn't very common.

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## bad manners

The more you say on the issue the more detached from the reality you appear.

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## 44 Canon

> The more you say on the issue the more detached from the reality you appear.

  Once again, words without reason.
 Why is it that I am always doing the explaining, while you are always  just spitting crude stuff out, impulsively, offering poorly researched information when pressured to actually do your homework? Pride maybe? 
 The statistics you based your assumption on themselves were flawed, basing the number of them made as the present number in existence, where many have been destroyed throughout history.
 You yourself also failed to note the numbers of them in the possession of companies and the consideration of multitudes owned by individuals, as well as illegally owned AKs, which probably consume the majority of AKs in the country.
 You also based your assumption on my estimate being at approximately 40% rather then what I really said ( As much as ) which I would probably argue to be somewhere between 27% and 40%.
 Your math was fundamentally flawed, do to the fact that you neglected to make a thural examination, but rather, a quick round up of information, probably on a search engine to try to discredit me on a field that I have been in for years and happen to know the ins and outs of.

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## bad manners

My math is based on what I can find. What is your assumption based on? On your personal acquaintance with less than a thousand of weirdoes? One thousand weirdoes by 20 AK makes twenty thousand AKs, what does it tell us about something measured in tens of millions? Your data are nothing but statistical noise, yet you are promptly willing to generalise that onto the very grand scale. Same for your "in the possession of companies". 
Simply consider that most of the AKs in world are made for and owned by the Russian, Chinese and other large and small armies, then you will see that your statement is equivalent to “26-40% of the lorries worldwide are used by the US citizens for recreation”.

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## 44 Canon

I'll give you part of it. 
 The vast majority of the retired AK rifles in the world that are not destroyed, are sent to the US for sale to American citizens. This of course includes small exceptions which wined up on the black market and in various other countries that do not prohibit civilian ownership of them.
 This is because most countries who actually make and use AKs are poor and on less then hostile terms with the US, therefore, sell them to American importers. We have also bought brand new AKs from many of them. That alone covers an extremely large % of the worlds AKs.
 For a period of time, Norinco and Polytech use to make AK rifles specifically for the American market. The man ( a good friend of mine ) I got my Desert Eagle from is personal friends with one of the major importers of Polytech back when they were imported, and mentioned them receiving thousands apron thousands at a time for years, moving at a rapid pace.
 Now, all that set aside, and just my personal experience.
 I myself have seen as much as 700 stock turn over since late 1999, all consisting of between 300 and 5,000 Aks pher stock. You witness these by identifying when they come in and when their out of stock. I have shallowly monitored this over the last 2 years, and have still seen well over 100.
 Prior to 1999, the AK market was even larger, and was like so for decades, and I only witnessed a very small portion of it.
 Keep in mind that as many as were sold, it is very likely that the majority are still in the hands of companies, awaiting sale.
 I can go all day on how I come to my estimate, but I really need to get back to work.
 Either way, the very mixed statistics that are out their, seam to agree with me in general.

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## BJ

44 Canon - can you explain how you marry your fascination with arms with your Christian principles

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## bad manners

Like I said, all your "facts" are but statistical noise. Here are some real facts for you: 
Americans own about 30 million semi-automatics--about 15% of all guns. Semi-autos are used for the same purposes as other firearms: target shooting, hunting, and protection. AR-15s, M1As, and M1s are the most popular center-fire target rifles in America, easily outnumbering all other rifles in the annual National Rifle and Pistol Championships. 
Source: NRA, http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=59 
Now let's take that apart and see what it might mean with regards to AKs. If those three particular models "easily outnumber" all the others, then they represent at least 50% of the semi-auto rifles. That in turns means that no model in all the "other rifles" can be more than (50% / 3) / 2 =  approx. 8% of that number. We have to divide by 3 because there are 3 "most popular", and then by at least 2 to have it "less popular". So that makes 2.4 million at most. Even if take your "companies", they will hardly keep more than half that number for future sales, so that makes 3.6 million. It is only 7% of 50 million, the latter being a very conservative estimate of the number of AKs worldwide.

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## waxwing

Most of them are floating around the Middle East and Central Asia, probably. Not that I'd really know. Most of the freedom fighters in Iraq are using them, aren't they?

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## 44 Canon

Perhapse, you are right on this one BM. I'll give you the benafit of the doubt.

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## 44 Canon

Finely got pictures of that Makarov. It has a set of my oak grips on it and a finish touch up I did immediately after picking it up, which includes the white lettering and HK style safety finish.           
 This is a very small but well made gun.

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## joysof

Guns. Splendid. What's next - plastic explosives in portrait? A nail-bomb? Or he could cut out the middle man and give us some close-up shots of a gaping entry-wound or two. Pervert.

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## Tambakis

I live in Texas, and I'm quite comfortable with guns, but you my friend really do scare me.

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## 44 Canon

Sounds more like you my friend are a chameleon. 
 BTW.
 I've been in the gun business for years. No one seams to be afraid of me.
 In fact, I actually have a growing reputation and may be responsible for designing or creating features on one of your guns or guns that someone you know has.

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## Tambakis

I'll be sure to tell all of my gun totin' relatives...I mean kin, to keep an eye out for the name 44 canon. Yes...

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## 44 Canon

OK. You run along now.

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## wallo

Untill what year the TT-33 was in use, untill what year the SKS was in use, and the AK-47 and AKM was in use? 
Other thing here in Mexico the Army use G-3 rifles of caliber 7.62 NATO it is very powerfull and the Naval Infantry uses M-16 of 5.56 NATO.

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## 44 Canon

By What means discontinued.
 The Tokarev pistol I believe saw service in the Soviet military clear up in to the mid 1970s, 1980s ( guns like this tend to gradually dissolve from service over time ) and was replaced by the IJ-70 and the later OTS pistols.
 I could be wrong but I think some forces are still using the SKS.
 Soviets quit fiddling with the gun in the 1950s I believe.
I have not played much with the Kalashnikove production dates since it's not a gun I am very fond of.
 Most south American countries use G-3, FAL, STG-58 etc. series rifles.
 Their great guns, but a little limited in versatility.
 Personally, I am a fan of the M-14, but if I had to go with a G-3 style weapon, it'de be a HK-91 or CETME.   

> 44 Canon - can you explain how you marry your fascination with arms with your Christian principles

  I must have missed this one.
 First off, I am first a scientist. I believe in facts, suspect on evidence and have faith in the creator and what I know about him.
 Now, perhaps you should imagine asking the same question to all the Christians who wrote the Constitution of the United states and brought fourth the 2nd amendment ( the right of the people to keep and bare arms.
 Christianity has a very long history of use of weapons, not including the heretics who used their religion to their own liking.
 Their are quite a few areas in the bible ( both old and new testament ) that somewhat COMMAND that people be ready to defend themselves, their homes, way of life and families through whatever means are necessary at the time.
 Their have been a few instances in history where Christians took up arms to fight off tyrants both from without and within, probably the most famous of all was the French war with Britain lead by Gen. Joan of Ark.
 Those who DO NOT remain armed and ready to defend themselves are ALWAYS the victims of tyranny eventually.
 Anti-gun groups have ALWAYS sought to only do harm to innocent people or sell themselves to a higher dictatorship on the rise who seek to harm innocent people. The most famous and clear example of this was the German Nazis who disarmed all "undesirables" in Germany before they were willing to conduct the holocaust.
 The Dutch and Polish had developed registration systems and civilian arms limitations which the Nazis used to their own advantage and some speculation exists that had they not had those restrictions ( what most people today think of as "sensible" gun restrictions ) they may have been able to defeat the Nazis. Even today, Dutch I have spoken with admit that they are now just as vulnerable to invasion as they were in WW II and are just hoping that it never happens ( it ALWAYS happens eventually.
 Britain was in very bad shape, where their gun rights were stripped to bare minimum and the NRA wound up coming to their rescue as the Germans threatened invasion.
 Ultimately, armed citizens throughout the war fought, as well as armed soldiers and many Germans were killed.
 If you think that is a work of evil, then consider this. Had they NOT fought the Germans, by refusing to fight, we would have allowed our families to be slaughtered ( a biblical no-no ) as well as ourselves probably and Christianity would no longer exist today.
 When forces of evil arise, it is the Christians RESPONSIBILITY to bring them down when met by them, which no unarmed country has been able to do on their own in a very long time.
 On the other side, a man who owns a full-auto AK-47 with a bayonet on it is guilty of no crime. He has not harmed anyone by having it. To take it from him and imprison him for having it is punishment of an innocent man, and that makes YOU the evil doer.
 It's like having Alcohol ( which in society claims more lives every year through reckless use then guns ),  having it is not a crime. It's what you do with it.
 As for me, I am a sorter. I shoot for sport. Not animals but mostly long-range silhouettes. In addition, the majority of my gun hobby revolves around gun smithing, making high-quality custom sports firearms.
 My only violent ambissions with firearms is to defend my loved ones if ever endangered ( which I seek and hope to never have to do.
 What is anti-Christian about any of that?

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## BETEP

> The Tokarev pistol I believe saw service in the Soviet military clear up in to the mid 1970s, 1980s ( guns like this tend to gradually dissolve from service over time ) and was replaced by the IJ-70 and the later OTS pistols.

 The production of Tokarev pistol (TT) in the USSR was finished in 1952. The replacement of TT by ПМ in the Soviet Army was finished in 60s. Actually, some quantity of TT pistols is keeping in special reserve stores up to now.     

> I could be wrong but I think some forces are still using the SKS.

 I think it's true.

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## Nova

> It's like having Alcohol

   ::  
What's the point in having alcohol if not for drinking? Guns if not for shooting? War if not for killing?  
I don't think Jesus would agree to "wage war" like the world.  Even in what we think is good for our loved ones.  God always knows what is better, and defending the US or any country in God's name is irrational, because a Christian's Kingdom isn't here, it's in Christ.  (yeah, you could say i'm a tad bit opinionated).  Jesus even told Peter to put his sword away when he cut of that servant-guy's ear(Malchus, i think his name was)..and then he healed him!  "And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.  But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' and he touched the man's ear and healed him."(from the gospel of Luke chapter 22).  And in the gospel of Matthew, in chapter26, it says..."Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.  Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" 
I see absolutely nothing wrong with guns for sports, hunting, etc... I do see something and everything wrong with "In the name of Jesus, die!"
i don't think you can tame evil by practicing it.
that's my understanding. but i'm sure some/many disagree.

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## TheCardinal

You forgot one of my favorite rifles, the SVD Dragunov: http://www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm 
Unfortunately real Russian ones are nearly impossible to find over here and if you ever do it's likely to cost you $3,000+  ::  
and, if you didn't forget it, then, please excuse my missing it because I just skimmed over those four pages pretty quickly.

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## BETEP

> You forgot one of my favorite rifles, the SVD Dragunov: http://www.world.guns.ru/sniper/sn18-e.htm 
> Unfortunately real Russian ones are nearly impossible to find over here and if you ever do it's likely to cost you $3,000+

 I depends on what are you gonna do with that. The accuracy of SVD is not good but it has reliable automatics and could be loaded with any sort of cartridges. The earlier ones have different rifling and better accuracy but they could not shoot any of incendiary bullets.

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## 44 Canon

IMHO, the Vepertm is a better gun in every way.
 More accurate, more controllable, better balanced and uses a more common cartridge.
 Either way, M-25A Sniper rifle IMHO is the best sniper rifle on earth of it's profile.
 Just as powerful, just as reliable, much lighter, far more accurate, better balanced.
 Unfortunately, it's 3x as expensive as the Dragunove costing around $2500 or more.
 The Dragunove has it's potential though. I wouldn't mind seeing a Mosin Nagent M-91 barrel drilled and tapped in to an SVD.
 On the other hand, Norinco and Polytech have been known for making some highly accurate, high performance ( and now highley expensive ) Kalashnikove rifles and I wouldn't be surprise if they don't make a high-performance SVD as well, although I've never looked for or seen one.

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## 44 Canon

> What's the point in having alcohol if not for drinking? Guns if not for shooting? War if not for killing?

  I use every gun I own yet have never shot anyone.
 As one reputable defense instructor once said: "like fire alarms, you can have a gun all your life and never need it but in the event that you do, it can be a matter of life or death for you or your loved ones." 
I can really go on and on with you about where God and Christ as one support and oppose the use of weapons in different ways.
 On thing the bible NEVER did was state that Gods people not own weapons nor be prepared to defend themselves, their homes, their families and ways of life. In fact, the bible orders that you do that.
 I made a post in the politics section about how American ownership of firearms right now is a major barrier that is keeping international carnage from happening, and that the anti-gun movement is rigged to enable world dominance.
 This is a tactic the bible thurally addresses ( Satan and evil working like a wolf in sheep's skin ) using fundamentals to make gun control look good and Godley when in reality, it will work to one day enable the uprising persecution of Christians and another international holocaust.   

> Jesus even told Peter to put his sword away when he cut of that servant-guy's ear(Malchus, I think his name was)..and then he healed him! "And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' and he touched the man's ear and healed him."(from the gospel of Luke chapter 22).

  Yeah, HE ( referring to Christ and God as one ) also ordered David to KILL goliath, dispatched Sampson to fight off an army, ordered his people to take down the walls of Jericho and allegedly sent St. Joan of Ark out to kill thousands of people.
 Lets not forget about Arch Angel Michaels little friend.
 It's one thing to blow up on another in anger like St. Peter did ( while Christ CHOSE to be taken in ) but their comes a point where you have to defend good and peace with violence, not because you want to but because you have to.
 I use guns for plinking and smiting and that's it. If the US or UN ever DID try to pull a holocaust on Christianity or the world, your attitude towards me and millions of other American CHRISTIANS being armed will very quickly take a big turn.
 The United States of America was founded by Christians and it was these Christians who made the right to keep and bare arms the second most important and critical amendment of the constitution of this country, and for a reason.   

> I see absolutely nothing wrong with guns for sports, hunting, etc... I do see something and everything wrong with "In the name of Jesus, die!"

  In that blunt of terms, I agree with you 100%.
 Going out and killing people in the name of God is wrong. Defending your home and lifestyle in the name of God is not. The right to keep and bare arms is not their so Americans can go pick fights with others. It's their for when others come and pick fights with us, and gun owners are as human as you and everyone else. In fact, gun enthusiasts like myself and most of my gun buddies  are very skilled in using our weapons and are superior to most people in combat abilities as result and although I myself never had the problem to get rid of most people from my experience like martial artists become more laid back, less of basket cases and far more friendly, peace loving and willing to work things out as result.

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## Nova

> It's one thing to blow up on another in anger like St. Peter did ( while Christ CHOSE to be taken in ) but their comes a point where you have to defend good and peace with violence, not because you want to but because you have to.

 sorry, but i disagree...Peter didn't do that out of anger..it is easily noticed in context that it was done to defend his cause (not God's, but his own).  So, should we defend our cause with weapons? Or should God be our Defender? 
one other thing- you cannot defend good and peace with violence. that is being a hypocrite.  no, you don't have to.  you may want to, even, but you do NOT have to.   
and even if there is mass persecution (and yes, there is), of Christians, God can defend.  in fact, the message of Christ is spreading more rapidly in places where persecution floods the streets. where in the bible does God demand that you arm yourself with physical weapons?  
and your loved ones should include both your neighbors and enemies. no?

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## 44 Canon

> one other thing- you cannot defend good and peace with violence. that is being a hypocrite. no, you don't have to. you may want to, even, but you do NOT have to.

 This concept has been proven wrong many of times.
 You may also want to recall the famous story of the Christian on his roof during a flood. 
 The bible displays that God has ordered human being to wage violence in defense of Gods kingdom on earth, and that's a FACT.
 Also, let me specify one line of yours:    

> you cannot defend good and peace with violence. that is being a hypocrite.

  What you are saying is that we should have just let Hitler rampage and slaughter everyone he wanted to.
 If you are unwilling to defend yourself, your family and way of life, someone else will take it by force.
 It is because of some of the most fierce blood baths in the history of mankind that you are allowed religious freedom, to express your opinion and even live in your own home. Maybe even exist. 
 Christ did acknowledge that military, war and defense do have their places in Gods kingdom. He also laid down rules for them: Be content with your pay and do not bully.
 Yes, the US military is breaking both rules, but that's the military, not individual citizens ready to defend their homes, which is the constitutional way our defense is meant to be and the reason why the right to keep and bare arms is their.   

> Unfortunately real Russian ones are nearly impossible to find over here and if you ever do it's likely to cost you $3,000+

  I would check your import laws and figure out what Russian currency is to American.
 SVDs can be bought here in the US for as little as $500-$600 at times. You will probably have trouble finding a company willing to export one, but if you get on the good side of an American citizen who has a few, you might be able to talk him/her in to sending you one and for a good price. You might also get some goodies with it that may not be available in Russia such as synthetic stocks, trigger enhancements etc.
 Another option ( if your currency is good enough to American ) would be to see if you can order in an M-25A sniper rifle ( an M-14 with a scope on it. Although they LOOK more basic then the SVD, they are MUCH better all around then the SVD and Marstar in Canada has Norinco M-305s for $399.
 All you need to convert an M-305 to an M-25A is a scope mount and a scope, and if you demand the fancy pistol grip stock, show me proof that they can legally be exported to Russia and I'll send you one ( I make one of the best on the market.   
 M-25A Sniper rifle is one of the most versatile rifles on earth, and one of the most accurate military rifles on earth with comparable reliability to the AK-47.   

> The earlier ones have different rifling and better accuracy but they could not shoot any of incendiary bullets.

 Now, I must ask why you, civilian might want to use incendiary ammo in a sniper rifle.
 For military combat use, I can see where they might come in handy for an AK, but even in military, incendiary ammo in a sniper rifle doesn't make sense as something useful enough to worry about.
 I know that many people enjoy using them as fireworks ( my self included ) but I would still worry about doing that in things like shotguns where you get more for your money.
 Otherwise, you may find a use for them if you're a strategic criminal, but in that case, the Spetsnaz will find a use for you, and after seeing how they treat violent criminals, I wouldn't want to be in their path.

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