# Forum About Russia Politics  Future of Eastern Ukraine? /  Будущее Восточной Украины?

## Hanna

Let's see if we can predict how this will end.... 
Nobody can see who voted for which option, so please vote for whatever option you think is most likely...

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## Basil77

I think no one can predict this right now. Imho, one thing could help though: if European Union stopped to act like USA's lapdog and started to carry more pro-european policy, it would certainly help to solve the current crisis.  Quid prodest, as Romans used to say. It's obvious that neither EU, nor Russia or certanly nor Ukraine will gain profit from current Ukrainian crisis. USA gain visible profits in either outcome: stable and democratic Ukraine as a bridge for strong cooperation between EU and Russian Federation makes USA a spare link in this chain. In the current scenario USA get: 1) scared Europe who needs protection from "evil" Russia, 2) market for their shale gas, 3) reason to put their military bases in Ukraine, Baltics, Poland, Finland, Sweden etc., 4) strong arguments for internal consumption to spend more money on military. And these are only the  most obvious profits.

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## Hanna

> I think no one can predict this right now. Imho, one thing could help though: if European Union stopped to act like USA's lapdog and started to carry more pro-european policy, it would certainly help to solve the current crisis.

 I think the events in Ukraine has revealed the true colours of the EU once and for all.
It's certainly crushed any illusions that I had about the EU anyway.  
Just pick the option that you think is most likely at the moment  - it's anonymous..
I think you can even change your vote later if you want.

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## Basil77

> Just pick the option that you think is most likely at the moment  - it's anonymous..
> I think you can even change your vote later if you want.

 Sorry, I can't do that because I think that at least 3 of your options currently have quite similar possibilities to become true.

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## Crocodile

Unfortunately, I can't answer that question. I lost my prediction credibility when I predicted Russian military will withdraw after Crimea would become more autonomous within Ukraine.  ::

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## Hanna

> Unfortunately, I can't answer that question. I lost my prediction credibility when I predicted Russian military will withdraw after Crimea would become more autonomous within Ukraine.

 It's a strong person who is able to admit that he was mistaken. Just because you were wrong that one time, doesn't mean you always will be! Your prediction for Crimea was perfectly reasonable and realistic. What actually happened was a lot more unexpected.

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## Gribnik

I think the 2nd and 3rd options will more-or-less have the same result. It's impossible to predict what will happen because we have already seen some crazy turn of events and I would not be surprised if any of these scenerios will come true.

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## it-ogo

I can't agree with some of your formulations, in particular 2 and 4. It implies that now "Eastern Ukraine" has its own will and ability to implement it. In fact it is now an "area in chaos": people are disoriented and terrorized by Russian diversants destroying the infrastructure and arming and organizing local poorest people and criminals into gangs and directing that gangs with no purpose apart pure destruction. 
In my opinion options of 2 and 3 can become available only after achieving option 1. The population most probably would support option 1 if asked (60%) or 2 which is mainly the same. Actual support from population of option 4 is close to 0 but it is possible as a result of massive Russian military invasion. Option 5 has some support (about 20% but unstable) though I don't believe that Putin is crazy enough for that. He is not going to take responsibility for those people, he just decieve them through Russian press to use as tools.

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## diogen_

According to the Putin plan, Ukraine must become a federation, but Kiev is still defiant, which is pushing the country  to the bottomless abyss of uncertainty and chaos. ::

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## Hanna

> I can't agree with some of your formulations, in particular 2 and 4. It implies that now "Eastern Ukraine" has its own will and ability to implement it. In fact it is now an "area in chaos": people are disoriented and terrorized by Russian diversants destroying the infrastructure and arming and organizing local poorest people and criminals into gangs and directing that gangs with no purpose apart pure destruction. 
> In my opinion options of 2 and 3 can become available only after achieving option 1. The population most probably would support option 1 if asked (60%) or 2 which is mainly the same. Actual support from population of option 4 is close to 0 but it is possible as a result of massive Russian military invasion. Option 5 has some support (about 20% but unstable) though I don't believe that Putin is crazy enough for that. He is not going to take responsibility for those people, he just decieve them through Russian press to use as tools.

 Cheers, ok I'll re-phrase the options if you suggest better wording. I didn't give it too much thought, just put down all possible outcomes that occurred to me.  
So the last option is  - if you believe it will continue like today indefinitely, or get even worse, i.e. every town is occupied and the UA army on the war path against the protesters etc.
I guess that is that nobody can or wants to do anything to solve the situation. I.e. Kiev can't and Russia won't.  
I guess it's a real blessing that there are no moslems living there, else you'd have the jihad brigade arriving too.....

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## Hanna

So the most likely future for Eastern Ukraine, according to MR members so far, is a decline into general chaos and/or civil war for the forseeable future. According to "our man in Eastern Ukraine" that's already happened. 
Around 10 people died so far. Hope there hasn't been too much damage to property and buildings and that society continues to function.

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## Eric C.

It's the last option first, then the first option at last. =)) 
Certain groups at the east of Ukraine, led by { unknown so far } thought they could take too much on themselves deciding on the relationships between different parts of the country they're living in. That's obviously breaking the law, and it's only a matter of time for those groups to be disarmed and stopped. Until then, it's option F); but eventually, it will be option A) anyway.

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## diogen_

> It's the last option first, then the first option at last. =)) 
> Certain groups at the east of Ukraine, led by { unknown so far } thought they could take too much on themselves deciding on the relationships between different parts of the country they're living in. That's obviously breaking the law, and it's only a matter of time for those groups to be disarmed and stopped. Until then, it's option F); but eventually, it will be option A) anyway.

 You are too optimistic, I’m afraid.)) The touchstone  is going to become the forthcoming referendum in the Donetsk region (in case it indeed takes place on May,11) that will demonstrate either impotence of Kiev's junta, or its bloody nature depending on the reaction. What exactly will happen next only God knows at the moment, with a few possible scenarios  outlined in the smart nytimes analysis.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/wo...sion.html?_r=0

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## Eric C.

> You are too optimistic, I’m afraid.)) The touchstone  is going to become the forthcoming referendum in the Donetsk region (in case it indeed takes place on May,11) that will demonstrate either impotence of Kiev's junta, or its bloody nature depending on the reaction. What exactly will happen next only God knows at the moment, with a few possible scenarios  outlined in the smart nytimes analysis.   http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/wo...sion.html?_r=0

 Sorry, but I just cannot take those separatist clowns seriously. "Donetsk people's republic"? WTF? It's like I and a few of my friends got drunk and declared a people republic of our own. Totally weird and ridiculous. That "referendum" is a comedian show, nothing more. The real and serious question is, if those separatist groups are actually backed up by anyone, and if so, then whom? If they aren't, a couple of days of intensive anti-terrorist therapy should completely bring them down, and show the rest what armed takeover of buildings gets them. If they ARE backed up by a certain country, and that country does invade in case of a counter terrorist operation, well, then at least everyone will see the real face of that country.

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## diogen_

> Sorry, but I just cannot take those separatist clowns seriously. "Donetsk people's republic"? WTF? It's like I and a few of my friends got drunk and declared a people republic of our own. Totally weird and ridiculous. That "referendum" is a comedian show, nothing more. The real and serious question is, if those separatist groups are actually backed up by anyone, and if so, then whom? If they aren't, a couple of days of intensive anti-terrorist therapy should completely bring them down, and show the rest what armed takeover of buildings gets them. If they ARE backed up by a certain country, and that country does invade in case of a counter terrorist operation, well, then at least everyone will see the real face of that country.

 You seem to seriously overestimate Russian omnipotence in those events and underestimate the role of  local  oligarchs.)) Even pro-junta sources take the referendum seriously.   

> "На 30 апреля намечено *ключевое* событие в сценарии дестабилизации Востока путем "референдума". Заседание Донецкого областного совета, который и должен по замыслу противника инициировать "референдум" по отделению области. Если не будет кворума - то есть если Ринат Ахметов даст команду, то провал сессии будет означать неминуемый провал технологии "референдума". Надеюсь, что руководство Украины понимает, кто является ключевыми фигурами этого спектакля, и проведет более результативные переговоры с депутатами, чем ГРУ РФ",

 На 30 апреля намечено ключевое событие в сценарии дестабилизации Востока путем референдума,

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## Eric C.

> You seem to seriously overestimate Russian omnipotence in those events and underestimate the role of  local  oligarchs.)) Even pro-junta sources take the referendum seriously.   На 30 апреля намечено ключевое событие в сценарии дестабилизации Востока путем референдума,

 Well, if it's completely internal business there, then I don't get why the Ukrainian forces are so shy about going in and putting that freak show to an end.

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## SergeMak

> Well, if it's completely internal business there, then I don't get why the Ukrainian forces are so shy about going in and putting that freak show to an end.

 Maybe because the Ukrainian soldiers don't see "freaks" as you say, but civilian people and they are not prepared to shoot at civilians? On the other hand it's Kiev junta who really are freaks. And the army is reluctant to execute the freaks' orders and shoot civilians, on the other hand, they need to show their obedience lest they be accused of desertion. So they also have to participate in this "freak show".

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## Eric C.

> Maybe because the Ukrainian soldiers don't see "freaks" as you say, but civilian people and they are not prepared to shoot at civilians? On the other hand it's Kiev junta who really are freaks.

 Dude, we should let them mind their business inside their country. That's it. Besides, I can't see how the Donetsk junta with AKMs is ANY better. 
And by the way, will the authorities in your city be tolerant to you if you take an automatic rifle and go assault administrative buildings on your way?

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## SergeMak

> Dude, we should let them mind their business inside their country.

 Such a great piece of advice! Why don't you follow it? Show me an example, dude! Mind your own business!
As for me, I am ethnically half-Ukrainian, so I'll do as I see fit. Get it, dude?

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## Eric C.

> Such a great piece of advice! Why don't you follow it? Show me an example, dude! Mind your own business!
> As for me, I am ethnically half-Ukrainian, so I'll do as I see fit. Get it, dude?

 I didn't know that, so I'm sorry if anything of what I said sounded rude to you. 
So, you live in Ukraine? If so, what area? (if you don't keep it a secret, of course)

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## SergeMak

I live in Russia, as many other people with Ukrainian ancestry, in the city of Orel. I think that about 20 to 30% of the population of my city are of Ukrainian origin, and if you take such regions as Kursk, Belgorod (where my father is from) there are even more ethnic Ukrainians. On the other hand such cities as Kharkov or Zaporozhie have mostly Russian population.

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## Basil77

Похоже всё-таки в Славянске правят бал никакие не ГРУ-шники, а самые настоящие казаки-разбойники. Тамошний командир "ополчения" Игорь Стрелков идейный монархист и Путина, оказывается, терпеть не может. Вот некоторые из его высказываний:   

> Я "присутствовал" при распаде Союза уже во вполне дееспособном (20 лет)  возрасте. Уже тогда был сознательным монархистом, но при всем  антисоветском настрое, меня одолевали противоречивые чувства. С одной  стороны, было удовлетворение тем, что на глазах рушится  антихристианское, антирусское, античеловечное в своей основе  государство. С другой - понимание того, что оно именно РУШИТСЯ... и под  его обломками вряд ли сможет произойти возрождение исторической России.  Еще было острое предчувствие, что люди, которые встали во главе  "революции", есть плоть от плоти самой гнусной разновидности советской  партийной номенклатуры и действуют в сугубо личных корыстных интересах. К  сожалению, это предчувствие полностью оправдались.
> Вполне  сознательно, не смотря на настойчивые приглашения, я не пошел "защищать  Белый Дом" в 91-м (хотя меня кое-кто из тогдашних соратников прямо  обвинил в трусости и даже "измене").
> По моему глубокому убеждению,  большевистская власть по сей день остается в России. Да, она мутировала  почти до неузнаваемости. Да, формальная идеология этой власти сменила  знак на прямо противоположный. Но она остается неизменной в основе: в  своей антирусской, антипатриотической, антирелигиозной направленности. В  ее рядах - прямые потомки тех самых людей, которые "делали" революцию  17-го. Они просто перекрасились, но сути не изменили. Отбросив  идеологию, мешавшую им обогащаться и наслаждаться материальными благами,  они остались у власти. А процесс прямого уничтожения русского народа (и  других коренных народов бывшей Российской Империи) продолжаетсяю  Другими средствами, но настолько "успешно", что оторопь берет.
> В 1991 году был переворот. Контрреволюции до сих пор не состоялось.
> ...нам надо поддерживать Путина? Конечно, нет! Вернее, его можно было бы  поддержать - при кардинальной смене им курса, отказа от компрадорского и  насквозь проворовавшегося окружения... Но вероятность, что он пойдет на  это - ничтожно мала. Вся его политика - это "качели"... он пытается  "раздать всем сестрам по серьгам" - и Западу угодить и на "патриотов"  опереться... Типичная политика латиноамериканского "диктаторчика",  дорвавшегося до власти и никому не желающего ее уступать - потому что  рассматривает ее исключительно как "пъедестал для себя любимого".
> Но  "болото" взорвано изнутри... стоячая вода перемешалась... наряду с  гнильем и грязью, наверх выходят и задавленные слои, которые одинаково  несовместимы ни с Путиным, ни с его "либеральными оппонентами" (которые  суть - всего лишь "разные фланги" одного антироссийского фронта). Мы еще  имеем шанс увидеть и ярких новых лидеров и силы, которые пойдут за  ними. Голосовать на этих выборах можно за кого угодно - они ничего не  решают. Впереди - новая схватка. Стране она обойдется очень недешево...  но ... лучше сгореть, чем сгнить.

   
Похоже, они там решили из Донбасса плацдарм для переворота в РФ готовить. Только этого нам не хватало для полного счастья... ::

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## BappaBa

> It's like I and a few of my friends got drunk and declared a people republic of our own. Totally weird and ridiculous.

 Борис Николаевич, ты?

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## Basil77

> Sorry, but I just cannot take those separatist clowns seriously. "Donetsk people's republic"? WTF? It's like I and a few of my friends got drunk and declared a people republic of our own. Totally weird and ridiculous.

 I agree with ВарраВа. The irony is that it's exactly how modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus was born. And entire "civilized world" was totally ok with it.

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## DrBaldhead

The area will descend into chaos. I consider this outcome quite real because that was the main goal of the powers which had started it all. A new politically unstable, dangerous region right under the borders of geopolitical enemies. The conflicts will go on, spreading hatred and poverty, making a good soil for various extremist organizations. Once again, the US will become the safest place in the world. By the price of safety in any other places.
Yet, I still hope we could solve that problem.

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## Basil77

> The area will descend into chaos. I consider this outcome quite real because that was the main goal of the powers which had started it all. A new politically unstable, dangerous region right under the borders of geopolitical enemies. The conflicts will go on, spreading hatred and poverty, making a good soil for various extremist organizations. Once again, the US will become the safest place in the world. By the price of safety in any other places.
> Yet, I still hope we could solve that problem.

 The only winner in this outcome would be USA.  Russia's best interest is to bring stability to the region as far as possible. I doubt that Russia can do that alone though without cooperation with sane Ukrainian politics (is there left any?) and European Union.

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## Homsa

> Russia's best interest is to bring stability to the region as far as possible.

 С этим трудно спорить. Хотя бы потому что нельзя это подтвердить или опровергнуть. Так что же делается для  этого? Демонстративный отказ от диалога на официальном уровне? Заявления о возможном непризнании результатов выборов? Военные учения на границе? Угроза ввести войска? Отказ призывать ВСЕ стороны конфликта сложить оружие? Не сомневаюсь что для всего этого у вас есть объяснения и что эти объяснения звучат разумно. Просто спросите себя, это все приводит к установлению стабильности, или еще больше «раскачивает лодку»? Что для России «вреднее»: унитарная Украина, или маленькое Сомали под боком?

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## Hanna

> The area will descend into chaos. I consider  this outcome quite real because that was the main goal of the powers  which had started it all. A new politically unstable, dangerous region  right under the borders of geopolitical enemies. The conflicts will go  on, spreading hatred and poverty, making a good soil for various  extremist organizations. Once again, the US will become the safest place  in the world. By the price of safety in any other places.
> Yet, I still hope we could solve that problem.

 Scary if true. I think they need to have that referendum and it needs to be fair, legit and consider all options.  
At  the moment there is so much propaganda and misinformation that I doubt  even the East Ukrainians themselves are sure what they want..    

> I agree with ВарраВа. The irony is that it's exactly how modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus was born. And entire "civilized world" was totally ok with it.

 Well, I think China paid very close attention in 1991, and learned exactly what *not* to do if they want to keep their country together and avoid foreign influence that could split things up.  
And sure, once the USA got a foot in, regional nationalism was their best weapon against Moscow, since it was already there and a bit supressed. Plus also tricking people that scrapping socialism was a sure way to get a condo, a designer wardrobe and a BMW in five years...  
And as you know, whatever the USA likes, we in Western Europe eventually end up "liking", whether we like it on not (pun intended). If not, they have their bases here... So that was never even an option really.  
I am not hostile against Russia, rather I like it, but I would never claim that Ukraine or Belarus ought to be part of Russia unless the people who lived there specifically asked for it...  
If Ukrainians and Belarussians are turned off by things like oligarchs and corruption in modern Russia, or possibly their ancestors were treated badly in the Soviet Union or Imperial Russia, just because they were Ukrainians, then perhaps it makes sense that they turn their back to Russia.  
it-Ogo is completely clear now, that he has a strong Ukrainian identity and the recent events seem to have triggered or re-inforced it. And there are a couple of people from Belarus popping in occassionally. They don't seem to hamper after Russian citizenship either.  
Russia became the victim of the curse of having had an empire and lost it. So many countries had this experience and had to do some soul searching afterwards for decades or centuries even. Who are we now....?  
 There's Yugoslavia. Scandinavia essentially speaks one language and has a joint history.  There are plenty of examples in Western Europe. Belgium. And that's just Europe.  
And it's hard to feel THAT sorry for Russia - it's still the largest country... you've got enough  ::

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## DrBaldhead

> С этим трудно спорить. Хотя бы потому что нельзя это подтвердить или опровергнуть. Так что же делается для  этого? Демонстративный отказ от диалога на официальном уровне? Заявления о возможном непризнании результатов выборов? Военные учения на границе? Угроза ввести войска? Отказ призывать ВСЕ стороны конфликта сложить оружие? Не сомневаюсь что для всего этого у вас есть объяснения и что эти объяснения звучат разумно. Просто спросите себя, это все приводит к установлению стабильности, или еще больше «раскачивает лодку»? Что для России «вреднее»: унитарная Украина, или маленькое Сомали под боком?

 Маленькое унитарное Сомали под боком федеративной республики Новороссия.
Как вам такой прогноз?  ::

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## Homsa

> Маленькое унитарное Сомали под боком федеративной республики Новороссия.
> Как вам такой прогноз?

 Ну зачем же мелочиться? Наносить историческую справедливость, так мегатоннами.

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## UhOhXplode

I voted for the choice that allows both the east and the west to win something. Why? Because this is a struggle between the US, the EU, and Russia to gain advantages in Ukraine. The Ukrainian people that are suffering for this arent even playing the game. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that they are real people with real families, dealing with a dangerous situation that only they understand.
It's very easy for me to sit at my desk and type posts about Ukraine when the most disturbing thing happening in my world is a small thunderstorm outside. Now that's something I can discuss because I'm here and I can see it and feel it. So, should I call what's happening in Donetsk a "freak show"? Or maybe I should just blame Russia for everything bad that happens in the world? That would be so easy for someone who isn't there and can only read about it in the news media. But they could be lying so how much do I really know? 
People are saying that Russia has troops on the Ukrainian border to destabilize Ukraine. Really? If there was a revolution in Mexico, the US would have more troops, military vehicles, and warplanes on the Mexican border than it had in Iraq. And the US would leave them there till the revolution was over.
No country wants violence to spill over the borders into their country. That's something I know. 
2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country. 
3. When Yanukovych was in power, the US and EU warned Kiev not to harm any of the protesters.
4. Hours after the US CIA Director visited Kiev, the new government sent the Ukraine military to attack the protesters in SE Ukraine.
5. After the US Vice President visited Kiev, those military actions against the protesters continued.
6. I haven't seen any news articles about Russian leaders visiting Kiev.
7. The Shell Oil Company and the Chevron Oil Company have strong interests in Ukraine... but only in eastern Ukraine. Monsanto has strong interests in west Ukraine.
8. A ton of money and resources left Russia in the 1990's. I have no reason to believe that the same thing won't happen in Ukraine. 
It's a fantasy to believe that Ukraine will solve it's own issues. Russia has strong and legitimate economic and security concerns. And the US would gain a lot with it's new economic interests and the advancement of NATO. 
With 2 of the most powerful nations on Earth fighting for advantages, I have very little reason to believe that Ukraine will have much to say about it's future.

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## 14Russian

> I voted for the choice that allows both the east and the west to win something. Why? Because this is a struggle between the US, the EU, and Russia to gain advantages in Ukraine. The Ukrainian people that are suffering for this arent even playing the game. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that they are real people with real families, dealing with a dangerous situation that only they understand.
> It's very easy for me to sit at my desk and type posts about Ukraine when the most disturbing thing happening in my world is a small thunderstorm outside. Now that's something I can discuss because I'm here and I can see it and feel it. So, should I call what's happening in Donetsk a "freak show"? Or maybe I should just blame Russia for everything bad that happens in the world? That would be so easy for someone who isn't there and can only read about it in the news media. But they could be lying so how much do I really know? 
> People are saying that Russia has troops on the Ukrainian border to destabilize Ukraine. Really? If there was a revolution in Mexico, the US would have more troops, military vehicles, and warplanes on the Mexican border than it had in Iraq. And the US would leave them there till the revolution was over.
> No country wants violence to spill over the borders into their country. That's something I know. 
> 2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country. 
> 3. When Yanukovych was in power, the US and EU warned Kiev not to harm any of the protesters.
> 4. Hours after the US CIA Director visited Kiev, the new government sent the Ukraine military to attack the protesters in SE Ukraine.
> 5. After the US Vice President visited Kiev, those military actions against the protesters continued.
> 6. I haven't seen any news articles about Russian leaders visiting Kiev.
> ...

 You have good points but you omit one crucial aspect.   Ukrainians have not objected much to the American/Western interference (for whatever reason).   I have discussed the issue with Ukrainians and urged them to be skeptical, cynical and suspicious (to put it mildly) with respect to the interventionist policy of the West.    The 'pro-Russia' side is already but their bias is based on being pro-Soviet or pro-neo-Soviet.   There's no other reason.    
However, other Ukrainians see Russia interfering as entirely negative and the historical relevance justifies the large percentage of the population which are extremely concerned about Russia's interference of the situation.  Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia.   Their rights are trampled.   Many Ukrainians don't want this problem.    They feel they can deal with the other problem, the West's meddling.  
It's up to Ukrainian citizens to realize that neither side gives them a great advantage but they must have the right and freedom to figure it out.   It's obvious and apparent that Russia (read Putin and friends) don't want to give Ukrainians that opportunity.   The Kremlin had full control over Ukraine.   They had two Presidential candidates that were Kremlin-friendly and more or less did what they wanted.   They're not happy not to have that influence.   Putin et al. doesn't care if this conflict blows over into violence.   It's all strategy and trying to control.   The other thing few people mention is how extensive the Kremlin-based media is.   They seem to be everywhere.   It's difficult to get real answers.   But, when one realizes that no one wants these hostile 'pro-Russia' personnel there who have committed violent and aggressive acts, you can notice who is really at fault here.   Ukrainians can deal with their own problems and citizens.   So, Russia should let them.    I am against the interim government and think many Ukrainians need to realize what is going on but Russia/Putin should stay out of it.    
'2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country.'
It would be good but how can they remain neutral or discuss Federalism if Russian provocateurs and unmarked soldiers are attacking their citizens?

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## Hanna

I wonder how Russia is going to have the massive 9 May celebration - that must be a huge thing for the RU military to organise, requiring a large part of the military to be involved (?) ----and keep the allegedly massive buildup of troops (50,000 according to media) at the Ukrainian border. Torn responsibilities? How many actual soldiers are in the Russian military?

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## DrBaldhead

> I wonder how Russia is going to have the massive 9 May celebration - that must be a huge thing for the RU military to organise, requiring a large part of the military to be involved (?) ----and keep the allegedly massive buildup of troops (50,000 according to media) at the Ukrainian border. Torn responsibilities? How many actual soldiers are in the Russian military?

 I think there's no need to worry. The preparations for the 9 May parade are usually started much earlier, so everything is already arranged and troops for it are already selected. 
How many actual soldiers do we have? Who knows? Maybe zero? These days we can afford a superman too  ::  
On a serious note, I dunno. Yet I presume that there's no media to be honest on such a topic right now. For those who are interested, this version of Superman actually comes from Ukraine (instead of Cansas). Soviet Ukraine  ::

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## UhOhXplode

> You have good points but you omit one crucial aspect.   Ukrainians have not objected much to the American/Western interference (for whatever reason).   I have discussed the issue with Ukrainians and urged them to be skeptical, cynical and suspicious (to put it mildly) with respect to the interventionist policy of the West.    The 'pro-Russia' side is already but their bias is based on being pro-Soviet or pro-neo-Soviet.   There's no other reason.    
> However, other Ukrainians see Russia interfering as entirely negative and the historical relevance justifies the large percentage of the population which are extremely concerned about Russia's interference of the situation.  Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia.   Their rights are trampled.   Many Ukrainians don't want this problem.    They feel they can deal with the other problem, the West's meddling.  
> It's up to Ukrainian citizens to realize that neither side gives them a great advantage but they must have the right and freedom to figure it out.   It's obvious and apparent that Russia (read Putin and friends) don't want to give Ukrainians that opportunity.   The Kremlin had full control over Ukraine.   They had two Presidential candidates that were Kremlin-friendly and more or less did what they wanted.   They're not happy not to have that influence.   Putin et al. doesn't care if this conflict blows over into violence.   It's all strategy and trying to control.   The other thing few people mention is how extensive the Kremlin-based media is.   They seem to be everywhere.   It's difficult to get real answers.   But, when one realizes that no one wants these hostile 'pro-Russia' personnel there who have committed violent and aggressive acts, you can notice who is really at fault here.   Ukrainians can deal with their own problems and citizens.   So, Russia should let them.    I am against the interim government and think many Ukrainians need to realize what is going on but Russia/Putin should stay out of it.    
> '2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country.'
> It would be good but how can they remain neutral or discuss Federalism if Russian provocateurs and unmarked soldiers are attacking their citizens?

 Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe. 
You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.  
2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues. 
Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO. 
3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
4. The second serious NATO aggression was in Ukraine. That's still undecided but it has a lot to do with certain factories and the east Russian border security.
5. The third serious NATO aggression is happening now in the Baltic states. The Ukraine crisis is being used to support that threat so it's very important for people to believe that protests are being caused by Russian citizens.
6. What this leads to is an excuse to attack the Russian economy with sanctions. 
It's an amazing Western strategy but I doubt that it will work. President Putin made one of his most brilliant moves when he annexed Crimea. 
Another brilliant move was when he signed the Eurasian agreement with Kazakhstan and Belarus yesterday.
He has also created stronger ties with China and doubled the export of gas to that region. And don't forget the new pipeline deal in Korea. 
Having Crimea deletes a lot of the Western threat to SW Russia. And if the SE Ukrainian conflict is blocking serious talks on Federalization and neutrality, then you want me to believe that Russia is intentionally working against itself. I don't believe that.
Other brilliant moves are the creation of a Russian credit system and switching trade eastward. I've never been more impressed with Russia than I am right now.
But the uncertainty in Ukraine and the build-up of NATO troops in the Baltic states are a serious threat to Russia's ability to defend itself. It's turning NATO's alleged self-defense role into a military act of aggression. 
But what's really scary is what happens next. The NATO aggression will force Russia to re-start the Arms Race. Can you guess what happens next? 
14 minute response time for a nuclear launch detection. Just one misinterpreted signal and welcome to WW3. And there's no hotline setup between Russia and Washington DC to help make a decision.
That's a worst case scenario but anything's possible. And all the pressure on Russia is making it even more likely.
As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!

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## maxmixiv

Какой-никакой а источник информации Список стран по численности действующих войск — Википедия

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## Hanna

> Какой-никакой а источник информации Список стран по численности действующих войск — Википедия

 Baltic States have practically nothing. Yet they claim to be living in fear of Russia!
If they are so scared of that, why don't they all get large armies and bring in military service? 
Belarus on the other hand seems to have a really large military. Who/what are they afraid of..? 
For Scandinavia, actions speak louder than words. After conscription was more or less dropped, the military is tiny. Such a contraction with the Cold War when nothing was ever said about what the "threat" was and Russia was discussed in media in neutral terms. 
Today in media there are constant negative stories about Russia and its military might etc. Yet every Nordic country wants to do business in Russia etc. And the military is tiny, and getting smaller. National neighbour schizophrenia.   
The reason the UK's army is small is because it consists of professionals - but they are good! 
The UK goes for quality, not quantity. No homesick 18-year-olds who'd rather be home with mummy, but professionals who chose that career.

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## Hanna

> Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
> Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe. 
> You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
> Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.  
> 2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues. 
> Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
> 1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
> 2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO. 
> 3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
> ...

 
I liked your comment as usual, but we mustn't forget that it-ogo, the "random sample" person in Eastern Ukraine is really p-d off with Russia at the moment, says the RU military is there locally and strongly against any intervention by Russia.  
I totally missed the news on the Eurasian trading zone.  Well good for them. Everybody needs to be in a union these days...  
As for your comment on Arms Race. Yes, that is the big fear isn't it? I think the ludicrous and totally unnecessary expense of an arms race was partly responsible for the economical problems of the USSR. While they were trying to provide for the population, in terms of basics etc, they felt pressured to continue investing in insanely expensive weaponry to enable them to do things that would have killed off the entire planet. I think the USA is also still suffering from the madness of the arms race - in terms of foreign debt and the arms lobby and multinational corporations. Apparently arms is the US biggest domestic production for export. Typical..  
It's so perverse there are not even words for it. While people are starving or suffering, global warming escalating and horrible diseases, some countries spend these ridiculous sums on dreaming up and building increasingly sophisticated ways of killing each other.   
I just hope nobody is crazy enough to kick off that madness again. And this time the US would not be the winner. China and maybe Russia or India would be. 
The US seems to have started a trend with the drones now. Lots of countries in Asia and Europe are getting them. I actually saw one here in the UK last year, when I was on holiday in Wales. Incredibly creepy, we didn't even spot it until it was really close, and then you could hear a creepy noise from it. 
Welcome to 1984.

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## UhOhXplode

> I liked your comment as usual, but we mustn't forget that it-ogo, the "random sample" person in Eastern Ukraine is really p-d off with Russia at the moment, says the RU military is there locally and strongly against any intervention by Russia.  
> I totally missed the news on the Eurasian trading zone.  Well good for them. Everybody needs to be in a union these days...  
> As for your comment on Arms Race. Yes, that is the big fear isn't it? I think the ludicrous and totally unnecessary expense of an arms race was partly responsible for the economical problems of the USSR. While they were trying to provide for the population, in terms of basics etc, they felt pressured to continue investing in insanely expensive weaponry to enable them to do things that would have killed off the entire planet. I think the USA is also still suffering from the madness of the arms race - in terms of foreign debt and the arms lobby and multinational corporations. Apparently arms is the US biggest domestic production for export. Typical..  
> It's so perverse there are not even words for it. While people are starving or suffering, global warming escalating and horrible diseases, some countries spend these ridiculous sums on dreaming up and building increasingly sophisticated ways of killing each other.   
> I just hope nobody is crazy enough to kick off that madness again. And this time the US would not be the winner. China and maybe Russia or India would be. 
> The US seems to have started a trend with the drones now. Lots of countries in Asia and Europe are getting them. I actually saw one here in the UK last year, when I was on holiday in Wales. Incredibly creepy, we didn't even spot it until it was really close, and then you could hear a creepy noise from it. 
> Welcome to 1984.

 it-ogo has every right to have serious issues with Russia right now since it-ogo has to live with and deal with what's happening there. And yeah, it would be a lot better if Ukraine could deal with it's own problems, without any intervention. But I don't see that going down so I think it's very important to understand why these things are happening. 
I've been trying very hard to stay objective. I haven't seen any solid proof that there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine. But if I do see solid proof then I will believe it. And it is a possibility that wouldn't surprise me. 
Anyway, I spent about 4 hours last weekend listening to a video about NATO and the dangers of eastward expansion. It included what I learned about the conflict in Georgia and the limitations of NATO in the Baltic states.
It's just insane that the EU would push for NATO alignment in it's contract with Ukraine. And the part about having to choose sides. If the EU had left those things out of the agreement, the Ukrainian crisis probably never woulda gone this far. 
And you're right. I read about the Arms Race and Perimeter is still in-place. I think the US has a similar system too. It's just scary. And if a nuclear exchange ever happens, I really don't think there will be any winners. 
Btw, did you know that even North Korea is making drones now? Nothing serious yet but who knows what that can lead to.  North Korea denies drones were sent to South | Air Force Times | airforcetimes.com 
Btw, I think we already passed 1984. I think we're living in the sequel.

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## 14Russian

> Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
> Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe. 
> You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
> Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.  
> 2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues. 
> Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
> 1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
> 2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO. 
> 3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
> ...

 (Вытерто. Л.)  Are you trying to tell me that you can't be a sovereigntist or support sovereignty and be against the interim government?   That is quite a narrow viewpoint.   
Like it or not, Ukrainians have the right to invite NATO or anyone else.   I'm against their action or policy and against the interim government but I am trying to look at it with neutral eyes and supporting their rights.   Russia has no right to interfere or to send provocateurs.  There is no justification. 
The media is full of lies so I don't believe half the stuff in there.   It's better to ask Ukrainians or at least obtain their reaction.  Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian.   I think most of it is media spin and have no reason to doubt it now.  
'Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat.'
LOL!   You obviously talk to no Russians.  
What does rights in the U.S. have to do with this?   I agree that their rights are dwindling (I have already pronounced such a view here before but that topic is redundant here).   It seems you want to deflect criticism of the Kremlin in any way possible.  Quite the tactic  (Вытерто. Л.). You also miss the fact that most pro-Putin views are freely expressed but those against are routinely monitored.   Most are relatively silent at least from public organization or are heavily scrutinized.   There's always the possibility of a hostile response.    
Btw, Russia Today is carefully scripted, monitored and controlled by the Kremlin.   Not sure why you throw out that example.   Russia has a lot of 'controlled Opposition types' in Government and probably in media, also.   
You obviously have a lot to learn about the country.  Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

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## Hanna

What does this supposed oppression and censorship in Russia matter to you 14Russian? You don't live there. Let the people who live there worry about it, and do something about it if it really bothers them. It's nobody else's business. First of all, the extent to which it happens can be debated. Secondly, it doesn't seem to massively bother the Russian population - if it really did, we'd here a lot of noise about it from Russia. I hear the odd Russian expat or token opposition figure mention it, nothing more. Thirdly, who are we to judge?  
Try to express a politically incorrect opinion in Western Europe: 1) it won't be published unless you are famous  2) if you managed to get your point of view published, every other article will assasinate your character 3) if it's radical enough you'll land yourself on a security services watchlist - and the indications are that they can read whoever's correspondence or listen to phonecalls as they please.   Russia has one party that rightly or wrongly keeps winning elections.We have several parties that are almost identical and any serious opposition or manifestations are cracked down on.  
What's the big difference? 
The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. *If you said that you lived in Russia had started a newspaper that was critical of the government and was harassed for it, I'd take you a bit more seriously.* 
But you don't live there and all you do is repeat propaganda. As you know, it annoys me that you come to a forum about Russia to carry out your anti-Russia agitation. Not that you can't hold whatever opinion you like, but it seems downright rude to do it here of all places. Not to mention spam/troll-like 
Anyone English speaking that wants to hear these types of opinions can pick up the nearest newspaper or turn on CNN. I think most people use this forum for the inside story or background. Definitely not to hear the usual anti-Russia rhetoric switched up a notch by you.

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## Lampada

_Опять двадцать пять!_  Народы, не накаляйте форумную атмосферу.  Это нормально, чтобы высказывались различные суждения, но - без переходов на личности, без неуважительных выпадов и без оскорбления чьих бы то ни было патриотических чувств. 
Призываю соблюдать порядок и спокойствие!

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## Hanna

> Призываю соблюдать порядок и спокойствие!

 Ok, sorry if I went too far!

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## DrBaldhead

> You obviously have a lot to learn about the country.  Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

 To be honest, it has become quite boring that some people judge your statements just by "pro-Putin" or not "pro-Putin" criteria. 
We are nation made of people just like everyone else, not a mystical manifestation of a single person's will. And if the latter actually goes along with the will of people, it's just a coincidence (not always a clear one and not always a bad one). Nobody mentions "pro-Obama" Americans or "pro-Yarosh" (or "pro-Timoshenko") Ukrainians, why suddenly there's "pro-Putin"?  

> Народ*Ы*, не накаляйте форумную атмосферу.

 This phrase makes my day  ::  Sounds quite cool, really.

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## Lampada

Почему такая реакция на "народы"?  Всегда были "братские народы" и ничего.

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## DrBaldhead

> Почему такая реакция на "народы"?  Всегда были "братские народы" и ничего.

 Шутка юмора не не понята  ::  Ладно, мои извинения.

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## Lampada

> ... Nobody mentions "pro-Obama" Americans ...

 А чё, есть про-Обама. http://goldenageofgaia.com/into-the-golden-age-of-gaia/*pro-obama*/

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## DrBaldhead

> А чё, есть про-Обама. http://goldenageofgaia.com/into-the-golden-age-of-gaia/*pro-obama*/

 Well, I admit, now you've mentioned them  ::

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## E-learner

> Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian.

   Incidentally, today at my work a matter of Russian as a second state language came up. The idea was met with indignation in no uncertain terms. I was surprised.  All people were Russian-speaking, as it's a city in what is called "Central Ukraine", in the East of it, not that far from the front line. Normally, I would expect apathetic responses like "what for?" or "who cares?" but here we are.

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## Hanna

> Incidentally, today at my work a matter of Russian as a second state language came up. The idea was met with indignation in no uncertain terms. I was surprised.  All people were Russian-speaking, as it's a city in what is called "Central Ukraine", in the East of it, not that far from the front line. Normally, I would expect apathetic responses like "what for?" or "who cares?" but here we are.

 So you are in Central Ukraine, your colleagues are Russian speaking but they get angry at the thought of having Russian as a second state language? 
That seems totally bizarre. Why would they not want their everyday language as a state language? I have never heard of such a thing.

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## diogen_

> Baltic States have practically nothing. Yet they claim to be living in fear of Russia!
>  If they are so scared of that, why don't they all get large armies and bring in military service? 
>  Belarus on the other hand seems to have a really large military. Who/what are they afraid of..?

 These are rather simple questions, IMHO. Baltic States are NATO members with collective defense system, and it's now mainly the US responsibility to protect them in the event of any aggression, in accordance with the charter of the organization. So they can save up a little bit of cash for other more pragmatic purposes that can give a return in the future. It's as simple as that. As for Belarus,  they are  basically afraid of the USA and NATO. It’s  crucial  for most dictators to instill the belief that enemies abound and ready to attack at any moment. That feeling of external aggression allows them to make the population more loyal and obedient to the dictator and ready  to bear the brunt of current economic and political hardships with less complaint, because there is a good reason for it. ::

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## E-learner

> So you are in Central Ukraine, your colleagues are Russian speaking but they get angry at the thought of having Russian as a second state language? 
> That seems totally bizarre. Why would they not want their everyday language as a state language? I have never heard of such a thing.

 First, for those people Russian as a state language, in practical terms, would change _nothing_. In verbal communication it's complete Russian-Ukrainian pluralism with big prevalence of Russian anyway. Official forms and things? Frankly speaking, I can't tell you in which language was the form I filled two weeks ago. Locals are good enough with Ukrainian to not take notice of such things. State language as a matter of principle, not to be "people of second sort"? It doesn't make sense. Nobody feels like a second sort person here because of being a Russian speaker. Maybe because they are Ukrainians and live in Ukraine and it is quite enough for them. 
Second, about them being angry, it's an emotional anti-Russian thing because of the war. They see on Russian TV (Lavrov etc.) that one of the reasons their country is being attacked is that the aggressor wants to make it's language their state language. Isn't that infuriating, on principle?

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## UhOhXplode

> (Вытерто. Л.)  Are you trying to tell me that you can't be a sovereigntist or support sovereignty and be against the interim government?   That is quite a narrow viewpoint.

 No. There probably are people who support sovereignty and oppose the interim government. Did you have an example?    

> Like it or not, Ukrainians have the right to invite NATO or anyone else.   I'm against their action or policy and against the interim government but I am trying to look at it with neutral eyes and supporting their rights.   Russia has no right to interfere or to send provocateurs.  There is no justification.

 I don't like it or dislike it. I'm only concerned about what happens next. And nobody can deny that it would dramatically increase hostilities in a situation that's already explosive.
Everything I've posted in this thread has been facts that can be found in the mainstream Western media. The only emotional statement I've made was this: "As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!"
If you are looking at this with neutral eyes then you must answer these questions:
1. Why doesn't Russia have the right to interfere?
2. What solid proof do you have that Russia is interfering? 
3. What solid proof do you have that there are Russian provocateurs in Ukraine?
4. Why is there no justification for Russian intervention?   

> The media is full of lies so I don't believe half the stuff in there.   It's better to ask Ukrainians or at least obtain their reaction.  Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian.   I think most of it is media spin and have no reason to doubt it now.

 That's why I verify anything I find in the media. I haven't posted anything that can't be verified by the facts. I will also be happy to post links that support any statement I've made. All my sources are bookmarked and very well organized.
And yeah, real-life Ukrainian comments on the crisis are very important. But don't forget that those Russian-speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years UNDER Russian-friendly Ukrainian Presidents. To know how they are living under the interim government, you will have to talk to the Russian-speaking activists.
But how any of the Ukrainians feel about the conflict, only Ukrainians really know. And it wasn't the focus of my debate.     

> 'Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat.'
> LOL!   You obviously talk to no Russians.

 I wasn't talking about buying a new Lamborghini. But if I was, I'd be all over those CEO's to get an Egoista! It totally does own the market!
You obviously play safe. I don't. I won't really know Russia till I've lived there (and I'm not talking about the expat zone). Btw, I cooked my first Borscht and it was the most awesome food I've ever eaten. I'll be making blini tomorrow. Russian food FTW!
I got the Recipes from Russian sites and translated them.   

> What does rights in the U.S. have to do with this?   I agree that their rights are dwindling (I have already pronounced such a view here before but that topic is redundant here).   It seems you want to deflect criticism of the Kremlin in any way possible.  Quite the tactic  (Вытерто. Л.). You also miss the fact that most pro-Putin views are freely expressed but those against are routinely monitored.   Most are relatively silent at least from public organization or are heavily scrutinized.   There's always the possibility of a hostile response.

 What did rights in Russia have to do with this? And it's only one-sided debates that are "tactics". I was just pointing out that all nations are imperfect and that harsh Nationalistic criticism of the nations involved is pointless. 
Please define "pro-Putin views". Anyway, like I mentioned in another thread (I don't remember which one), I have studied both world history and military history and I know a little about politics too. But I do NOT wanna be a politician or a political critic. The only non-civilian interests I have are in the military. 
Anyway, I only need enough freedom to write (fiction, nothing political), study, explore (especially the outdoors), and basically have a happy and productive life (I'm very active and ambitious). So I really don't care what country that's in unless it's North Korea.   

> Btw, Russia Today is carefully scripted, monitored and controlled by the Kremlin.   Not sure why you throw out that example.   Russia has a lot of 'controlled Opposition types' in Government and probably in media, also.  
> You obviously have a lot to learn about the country.  Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

 I threw out the Russia Today example because it was in dad's bookmarks. Since I don't have a serious interest in politics, I get a lot of help with my posts from him. And this isn't school so it's not cheating.
And if the Kremlin is monitoring Russia Today then fine... If they don't mess up the sports section or the cartoons.
What is a "pro-Putin type Russian"? *seriously confused*
But you're right. I do have a LOT to learn about Russia and I'll be learning most of it when I get there. I mean you can read about swimming 24/7/365 but you don't really know what it is till you jump in the water. I didn't really know what 3 meter diving was till I touched the bottom of the pool. And yeah, it was kinda scary but I wouldn't be diving off 3 meter boards if I hadn't tried.

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## DrBaldhead

The only problems I know for Russian language not being a state language:
- Official documentation is written in Ukrainian. It should be noted that not all papers are required to be written in Ukrainian. Also it's quite possible that some organizations ignore such rules and take documents in Russian anyway.
- Scientific projects. Students are forced to write their projects in Ukrainian which might be slight problem.
- Russian movies dubbed in Ukrainian. Nuff said.
I admit that it might not be an important factor.

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## wanja

Ccылка на Жж вытерта.  Л.

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## Eric C.

> The only problems I know for Russian language not being a state language:
> - Official documentation is written in Ukrainian. It should be noted that not all papers are required to be written in Ukrainian. Also it's quite possible that some organizations ignore such rules and take documents in Russian anyway.
> - Scientific projects. Students are forced to write their projects in Ukrainian which might be slight problem.
> - Russian movies dubbed in Ukrainian. Nuff said.
> I admit that it might not be an important factor.

 Besides, as I might guess, the Russian speaking community that resides in Ukraine can speak perfect Ukrainian, in addition to their knowledge of Russian, and therefore either of the two languages being or not being the official state language is really no big deal for them.

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## Eric C.

> Anyway, I only need enough freedom to write (fiction, nothing political), study, explore (especially the outdoors), and basically have a happy and productive life (I'm very active and ambitious). So I really don't care what country that's in unless it's North Korea.

 It might not be the right place to put this up, but since you already touched upon this subject...  Russia Approves Law Imposing Stricter Rules On Bloggers 
So, your freedom to write is being seriously restricted in a certain country, and the scariest part of that is that it only seems to be the beginning...   

> 1. Why doesn't Russia have the right to interfere?
> 2. What solid proof do you have that Russia is interfering? 
> 3. What solid proof do you have that there are Russian provocateurs in Ukraine?
> 4. Why is there no justification for Russian intervention?

 If answers ##1 & 4 aren't obvious to you, then would you mind answering if ANY OTHER country has a right to interfere there, and if such an interference would be justified, and if not, then why?   

> But how any of the Ukrainians feel about the conflict, only Ukrainians really know. And it wasn't the focus of my debate.

 And it should have been. For that conflict is happening on the Ukrainian territory, and it's the Ukrainians who have the final word in that argument.

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## it-ogo

Сижу в интернетах, фильтрую данные и не понимаю, что происходит. Огромное количество свидетельств, что украинские силовые структуры на территории Донецкой и Луганской областей прямо способствуют пресловутым захватам административных зданий. Не просто бездействуют в силу неорганизованности или страха, а именно способствуют захвату и пресекают попытки сопротивления и освобождения (теми же футбольными ультрас или добровольческими формированиями). Речь идет не только об отдельных местных начальниках или милицейских отделах, а о подразделениях самого разного подчинения, включая подчиненные Киеву непосредственно, причем о слаженной работе разных служб в этом направлении.   
Вменяемых объяснений этому явлению у меня пока нет. Надо перечитать "Все, способные держать оружие" и "Миллиард лет до конца света"

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## E-learner

> Речь идет не только об отдельных местных начальниках или милицейских отделах, а о подразделениях самого разного подчинения, включая подчиненные Киеву непосредственно, причем о слаженной работе разных служб в этом направлении.   
>  Вменяемых объяснений этому явлению у меня пока нет.

 Пофантазирую. 
  Ну, раз мы отбрасываем "агентов Кремля в силовых структурах", то получается что Киев (+Вашингтон) намеренно, причём невынужденно форсированно, сдаёт Донбасс. Без договорённости с Москвой, что она не пойдёт дальше, он этого делать не стал бы. А зачем Москве отказываться от остального Юго-Востока? Ну, может, получив практический опыт, считают что недостаточно велики шансы на успех, или слишком велики издержки. Но зато они могут выторговать решение многих проблем по Крыму, НАТО и кто знает что ещё. Правда, придётся объяснять своему народу, почему бросили братский народ на растерзание фашистам. Ну а Донбасс скорее всего придется как-то пристраивать обратно к Украине.
Эта версия имеет смысл только если сознательная сдача началась относительно недавно, а сначала всё было всерьез. 
  Но версия "агентов Кремля/Януковича" или просто развала как-то проще, привычней, надёжней.

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## UhOhXplode

> It might not be the right place to put this up, but since you already touched upon this subject... Russia Approves Law Imposing Stricter Rules On Bloggers
> So, your freedom to write is being seriously restricted in a certain country, and the scariest part of that is that it only seems to be the beginning...

 Thanks for the link.  ::  But I'm not surprised that they defined viral blogs as public media. But what's really interesting in that article is President Putin calling the internet a "CIA project". If anyone else said that I'd call them a nutjob. But Putin was a high-ranking officer in the KGB for 16 years so I'm listening. 
But does the new law affect me as a writer? Even as a Russian citizen it wouldn't affect me because I have no interest in journalism or supporting political unrest. I only write fiction and sci-fi and btw, if I was a Russian citizen I would be a Putin supporter. Very few world leaders have ever impressed me but Vladimir Putin has. Nobody's perfect but I consider him one of the greatest leaders in human history. The hero in my first book is a lot like him.     

> If answers ##1 & 4 aren't obvious to you, then would you mind answering if ANY OTHER country has a right to interfere there, and if such an interference would be justified, and if not, then why?

 In a perfect world, no country would have the right to interfere. But this isn't a perfect world and I'm not an idealist. Poland and Lithuania could claim a right to interfere since they invested a lot of time and resources in Western Ukraine. But it still wouldn't be that important for security reasons. Tbh, no other country has a valid reason to interfere in Ukraine except Russia since they built so much of Ukraine. The Western staged coup of the democratically elected leaders of Ukraine and the new US installed government are a direct threat to Russian national security in a country that wasn't a threat to Europe or the US. Ukraine only wanted modernization. Now what they'll be getting is austerity.
As for the UN, I don't believe it serves anything but the West. I also consider it to be a corrupt organization that only listens to 1/2 of the world (the Western half).    

> And it should have been. For that conflict is happening on the Ukrainian territory, and it's the Ukrainians who have the final word in that argument.

 There are rules for any debate. The topic I chose was undeniable facts and the International arena. I would have to be in Ukraine to discuss the Ukrainian views of the crisis. 
And I disagree with your last statement. Imo, It's the NGO's and other foreign agents operating in Ukraine that will have the final word. I don't believe that it was the Ukrainian people that started the conflict and I don't believe they'll be happy with the outcome.
The only demand I saw from the Ukrainians was for modernization. My question is, why has every country involved refused that demand? And that's as idealistic as I get...
But if I was an idealist then I would say, why not invest in Ukraine from the east and the west and modernize it... instead of using it this summer for NATO military exercises and forcing it into austerity? Yeah that's fiction but it sounds cool.

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## Eric C.

> But what's really interesting in that article is President Putin calling the internet a "CIA project". If anyone else said that I'd call them a nutjob. But Putin was a high-ranking officer in the KGB for 16 years so I'm listening.

 Well, it might be that while the КGВ were figuring out how to put even more anti soviet protesters in jail, the CIA were experimenting on connecting mainframes to each other in a network, and checking on what that got them. Anyway, all the Internet these days might possibly have in common with those experiments from the past is the general idea of the possibility of transferring informational bits over wires, that's it. Calling the entire Internet as it is now a CIA project ( Deleted. L.)   

> The Western staged coup of the democratically elected leaders of Ukraine and the new US installed government are a direct threat to Russian national security in a country that wasn't a threat to Europe or the US.

 Who told you that was a "western staged coup" and specifically that it was an "U.S. installed government"? The Russian media? (Deleted. L.)

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## Lampada

Eric, останови свой непрошенный поток возмущения и оскорблений тех, кто с тобой не согласен.  Предупреждение №1

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## Eric C.

> Eric, останови свой непрошенный поток возмущения и оскорблений тех, кто с тобой не согласен.  Предупреждение №1

 I never meant to insult the person I was having this discussion with. Your red line #1 was about me actually agreeing with the guy (Вытерто. Л.). Your red line #2 was about me speaking in general, I didn't call any names and such, I thought as long as we don't refer to someone on this forum in particular, we're cool. 
So, please, make it warning #0, as there's clearly a misunderstanding here. And I assure you I WILL respect the forum rules, as I've actually been doing for quite a while now.

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## Lampada

> I never meant to insult the person I was having this discussion with. Your red line #1 was about me actually agreeing with the guy (Вытерто. Л.). Your red line #2 was about me speaking in general, I didn't call any names and such, I thought as long as we don't refer to someone on this forum in particular, we're cool. 
> So, please, make it warning #0, as there's clearly a misunderstanding here. And I assure you I WILL respect the forum rules, as I've actually been doing for quite a while now.

 Да, я заметила, но иногда ты стараешься завуалированно пустить насмешку или оскорбить чьи-то чувства. Это _шито белыми нитками_ и читать так же противно, как и открытые нападки. Здесь не место ядовитым уколам, ни в адрес форумчан, *ни в адрес людей, которых форумчане уважают и почитают.*  То, что я вытерла, должно оставаться вытертым.

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## it-ogo

Идут бои на окраинах Славянска.

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## Basil77

> Сижу в интернетах, фильтрую данные и не понимаю, что происходит. Огромное количество свидетельств, что украинские силовые структуры на территории Донецкой и Луганской областей прямо способствуют пресловутым захватам административных зданий. Не просто бездействуют в силу неорганизованности или страха, а именно способствуют захвату и пресекают попытки сопротивления и освобождения (теми же футбольными ультрас или добровольческими формированиями). Речь идет не только об отдельных местных начальниках или милицейских отделах, а о подразделениях самого разного подчинения, включая подчиненные Киеву непосредственно, причем о слаженной работе разных служб в этом направлении.   
> Вменяемых объяснений этому явлению у меня пока нет. Надо перечитать "Все, способные держать оружие" и "Миллиард лет до конца света"

 Есть мнение, что "дама с косой"  со своей бандой (Турчинов, Яценюк & Со) специально раздувают пожар, чтобы сорвать выборы, так как все опросы показывают, что на них победит Порошенко, американцы на него уже сделали ставку. Юля любым способом пытается удеражаться у власти, эта милая дамочка всю страну зальёт кровью ради этого, если понадобится.

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## it-ogo

Вроде бы военные все еще действуют крайне аккуратно: вертолеты сбиваются, а о жертвах с другой стороны не слышно. Тымчук, неофициальный голос СБУ, вещает, что зелененькие после стрельбы по вертолетам получили приказ бросать Славянск на мясо и перебираться в Горловку устраивать там то же самое.   

> Есть мнение, что "дама с косой"  со своей бандой (Турчинов, Яценюк & Со) специально раздувают пожар, чтобы сорвать выборы, так как все опросы показывают, что на них победит Порошенко, американцы на него уже сделали ставку. Юля любым способом пытается удеражаться у власти, эта милая дамочка всю страну зальёт кровью ради этого, если понадобится.

 Есть такое мнение. Дамочка малопредсказуемая. Но по моим прикидкам такой власти у нее одной быть не может. Что касается нашей "хунты", она слишком неорганизованная. Тот же Кролик, например, под Юлей ходит очень недолго. Он - самостоятельная величина, и Юля для него - обуза, так что подставляться ради нее он бы не стал. 
Если предполагать у нее наличие сильного союзника, то это может быть некто, договорившийся с Путиным, что станет абсолютным властителем "Донбасской НР". Вроде бы такой силой и такими амбициями может располагать только Ахметов. Но он по всем прикидкам теряет больше, чем приобретает.

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## DrBaldhead

> Besides, as I might guess, the Russian speaking community that resides in Ukraine can speak perfect Ukrainian, in addition to their knowledge of Russian, and therefore either of the two languages being or not being the official state language is really no big deal for them.

 You might be wrong. The majority of population speaks the mixed language called "сурджик". "Perfect Ukrainian" can be the everyday life language for only 10-15%. Also it's an open question what dialect can be considered "perfect", because there are at least two of them (actually four).
Moreover, the fact that you can speak a language doesn't mean you might want to use it in your daily life. We all speak English here, but it doesn't mean that everyone would be fine with it as the only (the only one, mind you) state language in our countries (well, to a reasonable extent, of course).

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## DrBaldhead

> Вроде бы военные все еще действуют крайне аккуратно: вертолеты сбиваются, а о жертвах с другой стороны не слышно. Тымчук, неофициальный голос СБУ, вещает, что зелененькие после стрельбы по вертолетам получили приказ бросать Славянск на мясо и перебираться в Горловку устраивать там то же самое.

 The defenders of Slavyansk have reported casualties - three militia, two civilians. Also they say that any messages about the city being captured are lies, the fight still goes on.
Yet, even if they are wrong, it's kinda early to relax.  
Just like you, I wish it was fake. However, I doubt it. 
If it's real, I must remind that all these people used to be (or even remain) the citizens of Ukraine (wasn't this guy a former "Berkut" leader?).

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## it-ogo

Турчинов отрапортовал о нескольких погибших сепаратистах без конкретики. Военные разогнали блокпосты по окраинам и подъездам и позахватывали высоты и т.д. стратегические точки. Центр Славянска остается нетронутым, включая здания с заложниками (ОБСЕ-шниками, журналистами, чиновниками, депутатами, бывшей мэршей и просто кем попало). Где-то с двух часов стрельбы нет - все тихо. Оплаченная массовка, видимо, разбежалась. Зомбированные российским ТВ инициативные бабки с дедками завалили центральные улицы всяким хламом, так что легковушкам приходится ездить по дворам, хотя бронетехнике большинство этих баррикад по барабану. Такси работают. Жратву в магазины не подвозят. Дятлы с холодными руками, горячим сердцем и автоматами в неизвестном количестве сидят по населенным блочным жилым домам, целят в окна, изображают снайперов. На площади перед исполкомом человек 20-30 (было днем) присвоили Славянску звание "город-герой", обращаются к Путину, готовят обращения в "Гаагский суд по правам человека" по поводу "хунты", которая собирается добывать у них сланцевый газ, а это "хуже Чернобыля", обсуждают отравленные листовки, разбрасываемые с вертолетов Правым Сектором и т.п.. 
Где-то так. 
Edit: В восемь часов вечера опять началась стрельба в разных местах. Темно уже.

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## diogen_

Насколько я понимаю, фашисты из социалистической националистической лиги, которая заправляет сейчас в Киеве на Майдане незалежности и устраивает факельные шествия, собирается 3-4 числа судить на т.н. "вече" Турчинова и Ко за "преступное бездействие", отсюда и хаотическая спецоперация в Славянске. Посмотрим, что  из этого выйдет.  Пока ополченцы  как семечки щелкают “вертушки” бравых турченят, так что скорее всего им придется брать город без поддержки с воздуха. Но ради кресел не жалко ни солдат, ни мирных жителей. Хунта она и в Африке Украине  хунта. ::

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## DrBaldhead

Slaughter and fire in Odessa! The last four hours have claimed more lives than all the recent fights altogether! 
Fire at one of the buildings in Odessa. "Right Sector" activists set it on fire. More than 30 people died. Those who managed to escape out were caught and killed.   
Corpses on the streets.    

> Дятлы с холодными руками, горячим сердцем и автоматами

 It-ogo, you think it's funny? Here, have some funny blood!

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## it-ogo

Уже и в Краматорске стрельба. Пока что достоверно известно про пару раненых. 
В Одессе безобразие. Нужно будет как следует в этом разобраться. 
Ну что же, вот и настал момент истины. Либо Путин прямо сейчас вторгается к нам и обрекает российское государство на полный ПЦ, либо ограничивается принятием поз, но тогда ему надо будет резко подавлять фашистскую истерию в российском обществе, которую он так тщательно выпестовал. А это означает жесточайшее закручивание гаек. 
П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

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## Eric C.

> На площади перед исполкомом человек 20-30 (было днем) присвоили Славянску звание "город-герой", обращаются к Путину, готовят обращения в "Гаагский суд по правам человека" по поводу "хунты", которая собирается добывать у них сланцевый газ, а это "хуже Чернобыля", обсуждают отравленные листовки, разбрасываемые с вертолетов Правым Сектором и т.п..

 В который раз создается стойкое впечатление что среди первых были захвачены сумасшедшие дома, и оттуда был выпущен весь контингент.

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## Basil77

После сегодняшних событий в Одессе моё терпение лопнуло. С сегодняшнего дня, для меня - мочеголубой флаг олицетворяет только ненависть и фашизм. Лично порвал и смыл в унитаз украинский паспорт жены. Да простит Бог уродов, которые творят такое, прикрываясь украинским флажком. Одно чувство осталось - омерзение.

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## Eric C.

> После сегодняшних событий в Одессе моё терпение лопнуло. С сегодняшнего дня, для меня - мочеголубой флаг олицетворяет только ненависть и фашизм. Лично порвал и смыл в унитаз украинский паспорт жены. Да простит Бог уродов, которые творят такое, прикрываясь украинским флажком. Одно чувство осталось - омерзение.

 Я думаю, лучше дождаться полного исследования всех двух сторон конфликта. Неясно чей флаг там напал первым... (и как правильно заметил it-ogo, сколько одесситов/украинцев среди каждой из сторон)

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## Basil77

> Я думаю, лучше дождаться полного исследования всех двух сторон конфликта. Неясно чей флаг там напал первым...

 Я смотрел стрим. Животные, которые размахивали украинским флагом, подожгли здание и добивали дубинками людей, которые выпрыгивали из окон. Для меня достаточно того, что я видел, чтобы сделать выводы.

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## Eric C.

> Я смотрел стрим. Животные, которые размахивали украинским флагом, подожгли здание и добивали дубинками людей, которые выпрыгивали из окон. Для меня достаточно того, что я видел, чтобы сделать выводы.

 Хотелось бы узнать что предшествовало этим событиям. Из того что я читал, не из рандомной ненависти было подожжено то здание...

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## Basil77

> Хотелось бы узнать что предшествовало этим событиям. Из того что я читал, не из рандомной ненависти было подожжено то здание...

 Я тоже этим интересовался. А предшествовало им то, что ещё неделю назад шли разговоры, что в Одессе готовится провокация. Однако, футбольный матч не отменили, а подвезли как можно больше ультрас. Кроме того, уже почти месяц в Одессу свозили правый сектор и нацгвардию, которые для сегодняшнего действа переоделись в цивильное. Превратили замечательный город в место для побоища, мрази. После сегодняшнего, места для переговоров не осталось, всё, черта пройдена.

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## DrBaldhead

> Лично порвал и смыл в унитаз украинский паспорт жены.

 Это конечно далеко не дубликат бесценного груза уже, но, хочется верить, что она не была против  ::

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## Eric C.

> Я тоже этим интересовался. А предшествовало им то, что ещё неделю назад шли разговоры, что в Одессе готовится провокация. Однако, футбольный матч не отменили, а подвезли как можно больше ультрас. Кроме того, уже почти месяц в Одессу свозили правый сектор и нацгвардию, которые для сегодняшнего действа переоделись в цивильное. Превратили замечательный город в место для побоища, мрази. После сегодняшнего, места для переговоров не осталось, всё, черта пройдена.

 А вот я читал что в Одессе шел мирный митинг за единую Украину под украинскими флагами, а потом толпа сепаратистов, вооруженных битами и травматическим оружием напала на них и начала избивать. В конце концов, убили одного парня выстрелом в голову. После этого сепаратисты штурмовали здание и забаррикадировались в нем. Ну а дальше вы знаете. 
Ну так, чьим источникам верить? Где истина?

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## DrBaldhead

> А вот я читал что в Одессе шел мирный митинг за единую Украину под украинскими флагами, а потом толпа сепаратистов, вооруженных битами и травматическим оружием напала на них и начала избивать. В конце концов, убили одного парня выстрелом в голову. После этого сепаратисты штурмовали здание и забаррикадировались в нем. Ну а дальше вы знаете. 
> Ну так, чьим источникам верить? Где истина?

 Верь Турчинову. Со своими новыми призывами он и тебя скоро "на мирную демонстрацию" отправит, не дай Бог.

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## Basil77

> А вот я читал что в Одессе шел мирный иевсмитинг за единую Украину под украинскими флагами, а потом толпа сепаратистов, вооруженных битами и травматическим оружием напала на них и начала избивать. В конце концов, убили одного парня выстрелом в голову. После этого сепаратисты штурмовали здание и забаррикадировались в нем. Ну а дальше вы знаете. 
> Ну так, чьим источникам верить? Где истина?

 Я ещё раз повторяю - я смотрел стрим, точнее несколько стримов одновременно, и со стороны ульрас, и со стороны ребят с георгиевскими ленточками. С самого начала событий смотрел и перестал, только когда начали выпрыгивающих из окон женщин насмерть дубинками забивать, нервов не хватило смотреть на такое. Мне достаточно того, что я видел. У меня пропало всякое желание спорить после этого. Осталось одно желание - спасти нормальных людей от этой жевто-блакитной мрази.

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## Basil77

> Это конечно далеко не дубликат бесценного груза уже, но, хочется верить, что она не была против

 Мы женаты 12 лет как, и она давно гражданка РФ. Украинский паспорт хранила как сувенир. Я сегодня от сего сувенира избавился. Не хочу после сегодняшнего, чтобы мои дети имели хоть что-то общее с бывшим государством под названием "Украина".

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## Hanna

> П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

 
What a horrible tragedy for Ukraine. 
First of all, I don't know how they can be sure that these people are Russian. Did they have some documentation or something on them. Seems a bit odd to bring your passport as you go to commit illegal activities. 
Secondly; I read that many among the killed where Russian passport holders from Pridnestrovie, a.k.a Transdniestr. No pont speculating though, until the victims are named.  
And whether you would call that "Russians" or not, I don't know - I don't think most there are ethnic Russians - it's a "melting pot".  The article that I read did not discuss what these alleged Russian/Pridnestrovians were doing in this union building in Odessa. It's 1-2 hours by car from there.  Why would they want to go to Odessa to create havoc, what would be the motivation? 
Perhaps they are hoping for Russian intervention all the way to Tiraspol(?)  
(Photo is deleted. Too graphic. L.)    

> Мы женаты 12 лет как, и она давно гражданка РФ.  Украинский паспорт хранила как сувенир. Я сегодня от сего сувенира  избавился. Не хочу после сегодняшнего, чтобы мои дети имели хоть что-то  общее с бывшим государством под названием "Украина".

 Ok but  she/you have family, don't you? Which part of the country do they live  in? Does your wife's family's views concur with hers and yours?  
Putin and Lavrov are so much sharper with foreign policy than the US etc. 
No doubt they have a plan, but what is it? Have they already decided to let things disintegrate into utter chaos and let Ukraine become like some 3rd world  country in Africa - never intervening no matter what? Perhaps it serves Russia in some perverse way.. 
Or are they just waiting for the right moment to step in? Or is there something else going on? Is this a powerplay against NATO? 
What's happening in Ukraine now will go down as Political Science classic history in the future. It's very unique and happening in Europe to boot.

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## 14Russian

> What does this supposed oppression and censorship in Russia matter to you 14Russian? You don't live there. Let the people who live there worry about it, and do something about it if it really bothers them. It's nobody else's business. First of all, the extent to which it happens can be debated. Secondly, it doesn't seem to massively bother the Russian population - if it really did, we'd here a lot of noise about it from Russia. I hear the odd Russian expat or token opposition figure mention it, nothing more. Thirdly, who are we to judge?  
> Try to express a politically incorrect opinion in Western Europe: 1) it won't be published unless you are famous  2) if you managed to get your point of view published, every other article will assasinate your character 3) if it's radical enough you'll land yourself on a security services watchlist - and the indications are that they can read whoever's correspondence or listen to phonecalls as they please.   Russia has one party that rightly or wrongly keeps winning elections.We have several parties that are almost identical and any serious opposition or manifestations are cracked down on. 
> What's the big difference? 
> The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. *If you said that you lived in Russia had started a newspaper that was critical of the government and was harassed for it, I'd take you a bit more seriously.* 
> But you don't live there and all you do is repeat propaganda. As you know, it annoys me that you come to a forum about Russia to carry out your anti-Russia agitation. Not that you can't hold whatever opinion you like, but it seems downright rude to do it here of all places. Not to mention spam/troll-like 
> Anyone English speaking that wants to hear these types of opinions can pick up the nearest newspaper or turn on CNN. I think most people use this forum for the inside story or background. Definitely not to hear the usual anti-Russia rhetoric switched up a notch by you.

 (Deleted.L.) I already know about Western Europe, thanks, but the topic is Russia.   If you want to think the assertions I've made are 'propaganda' I really don't care. (Deleted.L.)

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## Lampada

Ужасно...  Давайте, может быть, остановимся приносить сюда такие страшные плохие новости?  Подождём какое-то время, должно же это закончиться.

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## SergeMak

> П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

  

> Я думаю, лучше дождаться полного исследования всех двух сторон конфликта. Неясно чей флаг там напал первым... (и как правильно заметил it-ogo, сколько одесситов/украинцев среди каждой из сторон)

 Мне как-то без разницы национальность погибших людей. Гибель любого человека есть трагедия. Ясно одно - люди были без оружия и в результате этого погибли. Тот, кто считает, что жизнь человека одной национальности или гражданства ценнее жизни человека другой национальности/гражданства, являет собой редкостную мразь.
Ясно стало одно - в Донбассе, где народ сумел вооружиться, не смотря на все боестолкновения и присутствие регулярных воинских частей, жертв меньше, чем в мирной Одессе. Я думаю, вывод как руководство к действию напрашивается сам собой.

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## Basil77

Насчёт того, кто погиб в Одессе:   

> Большинство сожженых заживо боевиками "Правого сектора" в Одессе -это представители левых организаций - Компартии и "Боротьбы".
> "Одесская  Дружина" жива. Есть раненые, задержанные, перешедшие на нелегальное  положение - но убитых вроде бы нет. Основной удар пришелся по левым -  КПУ и "Боротьбе". Горели в Доме Профоюзов в основном они, сообщают  пользователи соцсетей.
> Тех, кто выжил в Доме Профсоюзов, сажают в СИЗО за терроризм и сепаратизм, сообщает пользователь Павел Жеребин
> Байки  про сожженных якобы российских агентах, что распространяются  украинскими СМИ, опровергают одесские правоохранители и видеоматериалы -  у погибших украинские документы.
> После завершения тушения пожара в  здании Одесской областной федерации профсоюзов обнаружено 36 тел  погибших, сообщает пресс-служба ГУ ГСЧС Украины по Одесской области.
> Всего  после столкновений боевиков "Правого сектора" и антимайдановцев  объявлено о 43 погибших сторонниках федерализации Украины и 174  пострадавших.

 Так же хочу напомнить мой пост почти месячной давности:  

> Первый батальон Национальной гвардии поставил руководству ультиматум : Новости УНИАН

  http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D1%87%...1/index5.html#

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## UhOhXplode

> Well, it might be that while the КGВ were figuring out how to put even more anti soviet protesters in jail, the CIA were experimenting on connecting mainframes to each other in a network, and checking on what that got them. Anyway, all the Internet these days might possibly have in common with those experiments from the past is the general idea of the possibility of transferring informational bits over wires, that's it. Calling the entire Internet as it is now a CIA project ( Deleted. L.)

 1. Arresting protesters is not the only function of an intelligence community. If it was then OMOH could do their job and there would be no need for the ФСБ, ГРУ ГШ, or СВР in Russia now.
2. If that's the only interest the CIA has (or had) in the internet then I have to conclude that the CIA is ignorant, incompetent, or both. Also, the Snowden leaks revealed that there are NSA sock-puppet accounts online.   

> Who told you that was a "western staged coup" and specifically that it was an "U.S. installed government"? The Russian media? (Deleted. L.)

 Forbes magazine, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Guardian, and Business Insider. For example, this article appeared in Forbes magazine and the video speaks volumes.
I have a lot more links to mainstream US articles if you're interested. Washington's Man Yatsenyuk Setting Ukraine Up For Ruin - Forbes      

> Хотелось бы узнать что предшествовало этим событиям. Из того что я читал, не из рандомной ненависти было подожжено то здание...

 I said that emotions should never be allowed to guide a debate but now I have to make an exception.
What preceded the event in Odessa is irrelevant. It was cowardly, dishonorable, and inhuman! Imo, the people that committed that heinous crime should be treated as animals, not humans.
The only excuse for that kind of behavior is not being human. Death before dishonor. The animals that slaughtered those people are worse than dead. And I would rather be shot and killed than to ever do what they did. At least I would still have my honor. 
You claimed that pro-Russians attacked peaceful demonstrators with bats. That's called a street fight. There's a massive difference between fighting and slaughter.

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## Basil77

> I said that emotions should never be allowed to guide a debate but now I have to make an exception.
> What preceded the event in Odessa is irrelevant. It was cowardly, dishonorable, and inhuman! Imo, the people that committed that heinous crime should be treated as animals, not humans.
> The only excuse for that kind of behavior is not being human. Death before dishonor. The animals that slaughtered those people are worse than dead. And I would rather be shot and killed than to ever do what they did. At least I would still have my honor. 
> You claimed that pro-Russians attacked peaceful demonstrators with bats. That's called a street fight. There's a massive difference between fighting and slaughter.

 Absolutely agree. People inside the buliding didn't participate in street fights. They were mostly old ones (Communist party activists). There were many women among them. What a monster one should be to kill with bat injured unarmed old woman who just escaped from burning building? These animals should be eliminated like mad dogs - for better good of society.

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## Basil77

This interview was taken in 1992. For smart people all what happens in Ukraine now was obvious even back then:

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## Hanna

This referendum that is being planned will hardly be recognised by anyone, I should imagine. In this kind of climate, how can there be fair and credible referendums or election? Same reservations as in the Middle East. 
I find it hard to believe that Russia won't intervene if it continues like this for much longer.

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## EfreytoR_S

> This referendum that is being planned will hardly be recognised by anyone, I should imagine. In this kind of climate, how can there be fair and credible referendums or election? Same reservations as in the Middle East. 
> I find it hard to believe that Russia won't intervene if it continues like this for much longer.

 The goal of this whole campaign (i mean recent events in Odessa and South-East) - to drag Russian Federation into war. While world's mass-media blackens everything concerning Russia, it seems obvious that any detected russian force (even peacekeepers) on the territory of Ukraine would be called "Kremlin's butchers" and of course "warriors of light, defending the ideals of humanity" (NATO) would not hesitate to unleash its "holy wrath" on "agressive invaders". And again Europe will be on fire, while USA will trade, enrich, design new atrocities, orchestrating the conflict and dangling its lapdogs with new credits. That's the "Perfect war" by weakminded Western observers. The truth - if Russia intervenes it will be WW3.

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## Hanna

> The goal of this whole campaign (i mean recent events in Odessa and South-East) - to drag Russian Federation into war. While world's mass-media blackens everything concerning Russia, it seems obvious that any detected russian force (even peacekeepers) on the territory of Ukraine would be called "Kremlin's butchers" and of course "warriors of light, defending the ideals of humanity" (NATO) would not hesitate to unleash its "holy wrath" on "agressive invaders". And again Europe will be on fire, while USA will trade, enrich, design new atrocities, orchestrating the conflict and dangling its lapdogs with new credits. That's the "Perfect war" by weakminded Western observers. The truth - if Russia intervenes it will be WW3.

 Yes I think you are right. But we must be really careful to remember that it's only a part of the population even in East and South Ukraine who want Russia there.  
Just because they are against the government in Kiev doesn't mean they want Russian tanks on their street.  
As for the anti-Russian propaganda. Well, Putin is ALREADY being called a "butcher", "like Hitler" and other similar insults. So how much worse could it get? Russia was dropped from G7 and there are economic sanctions. In reality, most of the countries in Europe can not manage without Russian energy and have become dependent on exports to the Russian markets. Serious sanctions will not happen even if it did, I doubt it would be effective. 
In terms of bad will against Russia, that already happened. As far as Western media is concerned, Russia is joining ranks with Iran and North Korea on the "very evil" list..... 
It's propaganda at its very best...  
I see two possibilities if Russia actually gets involved:  
1) It was planned all along, and Russia had figured out that things would go this way and was just waiting for total chaos to strike 
2)  more likely: Various groups are trying to force Russia's hand to make it intervene. Russia did not really want to intervene but is left with litle faith.

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## Crocodile

> В Одессе безобразие. Нужно будет как следует в этом разобраться.
> П.С. Интересно, сколько среди разбившихся и задохнувшихся в Одессе окажется россиян и найдется ли там хоть один одессит?

 Нет там одесситов. Только существа и колорады, не так ли, it-ogo?  http://thekievtimes.ua/society/36873...y-odessoj.html

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## Basil77

> Нет там одесситов. Только существа и колорады, не так ли, it-ogo?

 Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

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## Crocodile

> Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

 Не могу ему сочувствовать так как он тут с пафосом хватался за штурмовую винтовку, желая научить кого-то там уважать правила. Ненависть порождает ненависть, а не уважение к правилам.

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## DrBaldhead

> Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

 Не последний, видит Бог, не последний.

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## Basil77



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## Hanna

My prediction/feeling is that Russia will step in if it gets much worse than this. I don't think it would lead to WWW3 because Ukraine is not in NATO and NATO would not risk a direct confrontation with Russia in an area where Russia is at home turf so to speak.  
If it does, it should help the affected areas to have a completely fair referendum with all choices present on the ballot, to decide what to do. Then respect the outcome.  
I don't think Russia particularly WANTS Eastern Ukraine / Donbass, in the way it wanted Crimea. Russia didn't start any of this, but is obviously trying to use the situation to it advantage, as happened with Crimea.  
If this was a game of chess, and if I hadn't read it-ogo's comments I would just say; do it Russia. NATO must be taught a lesson and Ukraine cannot be allowed to be some kind of European Syria...
But because I read his comments, I feel like it would be a violation if Russia did something.

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## Lampada

> My prediction/feeling is that Russia will step in if it gets much worse than this. I don't think it would lead to WWW3 because Ukraine is not in NATO and NATO would not risk a direct confrontation with Russia in an area where Russia is at home turf so to speak.  
> If it does, it should help the affected areas to have a completely fair referendum with all choices present on the ballot, to decide what to do. Then respect the outcome.  
> I don't think Russia particularly WANTS Eastern Ukraine / Donbass, in the way it wanted Crimea. Russia didn't start any of this, but is obviously trying to use the situation to it advantage, as happened with Crimea.  
> If this was a game of chess, and if I hadn't read it-ogo's comments I would just say; do it Russia. NATO must be taught a lesson and Ukraine cannot be allowed to be some kind of European Syria...
> But because I read his comments, I feel like it would be a violation if Russia did something.

 Так как очевидно, что с каждым днём противостояние (кого с кем мне так и непонятно) разгорается больше и страшнее, у России, мне видится, не остаётся другого выбора, как пустить в ход войска.  Думаю, что это дело недель, может, дней.  Ужас!

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## Basil77

I think it's obvious that people like It-ogo are very small minority in Donetsk and Lugansk regions despite his claims. If it would be otherwise, than why so-called "green men" were welcomed in towns like Kramotorsk and Slavyansk but "legal Ukrainian army" is beeing met by locals like this (warning, lot's of swearing):

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## Basil77

> Так как очевидно, что с каждым днём противостояние (кого с кем мне так и непонятно) разгорается больше и страшнее, у России, мне видится, не остаётся другого выбора, как пустить в ход войска.  Думаю, что это дело недель, может, дней.  Ужас!

  Кого и с кем как раз понятно. Изначально с  момента провозглашения своей независимости в 1991 так называемое государство "Украина" было построено на идее "Украина - не Россия" и на русофобии. 23 года безумной пропаганды и школьных учебников про древних укров, которых поработила ордынская Московия принесли свои плоды. Выросло целое поколение психически больных с зомбированными мозгами. Сейчас на Юго-Востоке идёт противостояние граждан Украины, которые остались нормальными людьми, не смотря на всё это, с полоумными нацистами, которым чуждо всё человеческое. По-моему каждому непредвзятому наблюдателю это должно быть очевидно после всего произошедшего.

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## Hanna

> Ужас!

 Yes  ::  . I really fell in love with Ukraine when I was there. Particularly Odessa,  but Kiev too - the history of it.... I didn't notice that any of this was brewing underneath. Maybe naive of me. I have been planning to return in the future and hike Crimea at the same time.  
Yes, and imagine the 9 May celebrations in the middle of this. Seems Nazism wasn't completely killed off by the Soviet Army. Nothing to celebrate for the Ukrainians. 
Seems Ukraine has been taking "one step forward, two steps back" since 1992.  
And poverty has to be fixed. Saw a woman in Odessa on TV - she said her salary was 92 USD a month. In Europe today. It's not on. I'd rather take double or triple that in roubles if I was her, EVEN if I didn't like Putin or Russia. I'd just pretend he wasn't there. She's got to eat and heat her house in the winter! And Nazis burning buildings in Odessa full of Jews. It's beyond disgusting. 
If Russia was planning to intervene all along, then I think they should do it BEFORE more people are killed or buildings destroyed. 
If Russia is NOT planning to intervene, I think they should say that VERY clearly so the "pro-Russians" know where they stand and adjust their expectations accordingly. 
Right now, if things don't go their way, the leaders may end up spending the rest of their lives in prison.

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## it-ogo

> Нет там одесситов. Только существа и колорады, не так ли, it-ogo?

 Чет ты поплыл. Находишь в инете оскорбляющие твое чувство прекрасного высказывания, приписываешь их мне и находишь в этом занятии глубокий смысл?   

> Не могу ему сочувствовать так как он тут с пафосом хватался за штурмовую винтовку, желая научить кого-то там уважать правила. Ненависть порождает ненависть, а не уважение к правилам.

  За винтовку я хватался, желая сдохнуть, ибо к боевым действиям не пригоден абсолютно. И чем для тебя плоха ненависть? Все же преступники, не так ли? 
Уважать правила? Я? Опять ты что-то выдумываешь. У меня с этим умеренно.   

> Не трогай его сейчас. У него бой в городе идёт.

 Бой не идет. Цирк продолжается. 
Военные снесли блокпост на въезде со Славянска. Потом десант на БМДшках въехал с другой стороны, обойдя огородами. Постоял в одном месте. Туда собралось человек 20 местной алкашни, поматерили их на камеру. Те послушали, потом проехались по городу, изредка постреливая вверх. Колорадчики зачем-то подожгли пару троллейбусов и несколько маршруток - даже не на пути бронетехники. Тоже, наверно, на камеру. Военные убрались и отрапортовали, что что-то там позахватывали. Все. 5 трупов, 17 раненых в больницах города, включая результат вчерашнего замеса в Андреевке. Военные не в счет - у них свои госпитали-морги. (Говорят, что в Андреевке 2 военных еще положили из-за спин мясного щита).

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## Basil77

> Бой не идет. Цирк продолжается.  Военные снесли блокпост на въезде со Славянска. Потом десант на БМДшках въехал с другой стороны, обойдя огородами. Постоял в одном месте. Туда собралось человек 20 местной алкашни, поматерили их на камеру. Те послушали, потом проехались по городу, изредка постреливая вверх. Колорадчики зачем-то подожгли пару троллейбусов и несколько маршруток - даже не на пути бронетехники. Тоже, наверно, на камеру. Военные убрались и отрапортовали, что что-то там позахватывали. Все. 5 трупов, 17 раненых в больницах города, включая результат вчерашнего замеса в Андреевке. Военные не в счет - у них свои госпитали-морги. (Говорят, что в Андреевке 2 военных еще положили из-за спин мясного щита).

  Ну вот ты себя и показал во всей красе. Если для тебя трупы - это цирк, то с тобой всё ясно. Говорить с тобой после этого уже не о чем. 
P.S. Эти так называемые "алкаши" не побоялись выйти к карателям, несмотря на то, что они (каратели) перед этим только что убили несколько местных жителей в Андреевке, которые не пускали их в город. Почему же так называемые "патриоты украины", включая it-ogo, не поступили так же с "зелёными человечками", которых было в Краматорске всего человек двадцать и без всякой боевой техники?

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## Eric C.

> If Russia was planning to intervene all along, then I think they should do it BEFORE more people are killed or buildings destroyed. 
> If Russia is NOT planning to intervene, I think they should say that VERY clearly so the "pro-Russians" know where they stand and adjust their expectations accordingly.

 Maybe not my business, but I think Russia could gain some respect from the Ukrainian people if the Russian army got in AND helped the Ukrainian army put down all the illegally armed individuals on the streets, AND then just quietly stepped off the scene. What are chances that if it intervenes, things will go that way?...

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## Lampada

> Ну вот ты себя и показал во всей красе. Если для тебя трупы - это цирк, то с тобой всё ясно. Говорить с тобой после этого уже не о чем.

 Ничего там не ясно. А к словам цепляться - последнее дело.

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## Basil77

> Maybe not my business, but I think Russia could gain some respect from the Ukrainian people if the Russian army got in AND helped the Ukrainian army put down all the illegally armed individuals on the streets, AND then just quietly stepped off the scene. What are chances that if it intervenes, things will go that way?...

 Zero chances, unfortunately. Russian public opinion after yesterday's massacre in Odessa changed drastically according to what I hear around me. People think that Putin is a pussy and demand full-scale invasion and second Nurnberg tribunal for Kiev junta.

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## Crocodile

> Уважать правила? Я? Опять ты что-то выдумываешь. У меня с этим умеренно.

 Да, я вообще известный выдумщик:   

> As for assault rifle, I can hardly be good enough with it for several medical reasons still I don't think it is so bad way to spend my otherwise worthless life. *Just to remind of rules.*

  

> И чем для тебя плоха ненависть? Все же преступники, не так ли?

 Я призывал не любить тех, кто во власти и не плясать под их дудку. Ты же ненавидишь простых людей. Прости за длинную цитату:   

> А начали мы с того, что маленькая группка обладающих властью вьетнамцев искренне возненавидела другую группку вьетнамцев и всячески старается сжить последних со света. И чем же закончили? Закончили тем, что ненависть маленькой кучки людей, словно смертельный яд, разлилась по огромным пространствам нашей планеты, отравив попутно миллионы других, совершенно непричастных к этому людей. И все эти люди, мигом позабыв про все, что их занимало до этого момента, бросились либо убивать друг друга, либо бороться за мир, публично разрывая на кусочки призывные повестки. А еще они начали платить, платить и платить своими деньгами и своей кровью за чью-то необоримую и необъяснимую ненависть. Выходит, что война, это лишь ответная реакция человечества, как живого вида на возникшую в одной его части смертельную ненависть одних человекообразных к другим? Да, выходит так! И, что самое во всем этом неприятное, так это то, что сама война никак не способна искоренить саму ненависть. Она может только помочь одной части ненавидящих как-то побороть другую часть — ненавидимых. Получается, что войны всех сортов и размеров будут продолжаться в человеческом обществе до тех пор, пока не будет изжита сама ненависть. Не изжита, как образ мысли, как общечеловеческое понятие. Как та же оспа, которую, объединившись, уничтожали врачи всего мира. Вместе! Взялись и уничтожили. Теперь не нужно бороться с этой заразой, ибо оспы в мире нет. И только тогда наступит долгожданный мир, когда наступит эпоха всеобщей любви, поскольку только любовь является антиподом ненависти. Ах, как было правильно написано в Библии: «Возлюби ближнего своего». Как точно сказано, как прозорливо. Жаль только, не прочитал никто эту книгу, не вдумался. А раз читать никто не умеет, то готовьтесь, ребята, к войне, она к вам непременно пожалует.

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## Eric C.

> Zero chances, unfortunately. Russian public opinion after yesterday's massacre in Odessa changed drastically according to what I hear around me. People think that Putin is a pussy and demand full-scale invasion and second Nurnberg tribunal for Kiev junta.

 And then, just for the record, ANY nation that doesn't like anything about Russia can do the same to Russia, right? Sorry, but those people who "demand" that are not very smart, to put it VERY mildly.  
On the latest Ukrainian events, I repeat it one more time, as long as I'm not sure who started the sh*t, I cannot hold any firm opinion, but even at this point I can say the following: any innocent person who died in that conflict is a big loss and horrible tragedy, BUT any attacker with a weapon who used it to bring in violence is not even worth talking about him, and in fact the more of such individuals were wiped off, the better.

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## it-ogo

> а, я вообще известный выдумщик:

 Можешь попробовать прочесть это еще раз - в контексте и с моими нынешними разъяснениями.   

> Я призывал не любить тех, кто во власти и не плясать под их дудку. Ты же ненавидишь простых людей. Прости за длинную цитату:

 Тех, кто во власти я не люблю. Под дудки не пляшу - сижу на стуле. Я ненавижу фашиствующее большинство россиян за то, что они изгадили мне идентичность, и настаиваю на этом своем праве. Человек не должен быть настолько простым.

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## Basil77

> And then, just for the record, ANY nation that doesn't like anything about Russia can do the same to Russia, right? Sorry, but those people who "demand" that are not very smart, to put it VERY mildly.  
> On the latest Ukrainian events, I repeat it one more time, as long as I'm not sure who started the sh*t, I cannot hold any firm opinion, but even at this point I can say the following: any innocent person who died in that conflict is a big loss and horrible tragedy, BUT any attacker with a weapon who used it to bring in violence is not even worth talking about him, and in fact the more of such individuals were wiped off, the better.

 Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.
And don't put analogy with Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Middle-Asian stans (except Kazakhstan) and Caucasus, please. Baltics were always considered as "special snowflakes" even in Soviet Union. Despite some disputable cities, like Narva, no one here consider, say, Estonians our compatriots. But most questions with Baltic countries were succesfully solved in the last years, borders officially marked, etc. Ukraine is completley different case.

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## Eric C.

> Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.

 And I guess the same goes for the other 13 former soviet republics, right? That's an amazingly wrong attitude, you should fix it! It's the artificially created states like the USSR, Checzho-Slovakia, Yugoslavia etc. that is to be considered "the joke". Luckily, most of those are history now. And I don't get you folks, you live in the biggest country in the world and still look for expansion, WHAT FOR???

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## Basil77

> And I guess the same goes for the other 13 former soviet republics, right? That's an amazingly wrong attitude, you should fix it! It's the artificially created states like the USSR, Checzho-Slovakia, Yugoslavia etc. that is to be considered "the joke". Luckily, most of those are history now. And I don't get you folks, you live in the biggest country in the world and still look for expansion, WHAT FOR???

 You guess wrong. This is right only for Belarus, the south-eastern part of Ukraine and the northern part of Kazakhstan wich are historically and mentally our compatriots. And yes, North Caucasus, including Chechnya is considered aliens. You are right about USSR was artificially created. All tensions between former USSR republics happen because of artificially drawn borders by Lenin and Stalin.

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## Basil77

> Я ненавижу фашиствующее большинство россиян за то, что они изгадили мне идентичность, и настаиваю на этом своем праве. Человек не должен быть настолько простым.

 Не хотел больше реагировать на твои посты, но прокомментирую. Если твоя идентичность - это образ цивилизованного европейца, который не имеет ничего общего с монгольскими варварами, живущими по соседству - замечательно. Некоторые вон считают себя наполеонами и александрами македонскими. Таким личностям, как правило, всегда находится место - в местной психиатрической клинике.

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## DrBaldhead

> Zero chances, unfortunately. Russian public opinion after yesterday's massacre in Odessa changed drastically according to what I hear around me. People think that Putin is a pussy and demand full-scale invasion and second Nurnberg tribunal for Kiev junta.

 Sad to admit, he has been quiet for far too long. However, it's understandable. To start WW3 or not to start WW3? A tough question. Figuratively speaking, Russian speaking population in Ukraine is taken hostage. The condition - "Step into the shi~ we've prepared for you, or they shall burn. And when you do, we'll make you pay and apologize for another several decades. Sincerely yours, western friends." 
A clever plan. Clever and inhuman.

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## DrBaldhead

> Я ненавижу фашиствующее большинство россиян за то, что они изгадили мне идентичность, и настаиваю на этом своем праве.

 Гавно не изгадишь.

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## Eric C.

> Sad to admit, he has been quiet for far too long. However, it's understandable. To start WW3 or not to start WW3? A tough question. Figuratively speaking, Russian speaking population in Ukraine is taken hostage. The condition - "Step into the shi~ we've prepared for you, or they shall burn. And when you do, we'll make you pay and apologize for another several decades. Sincerely yours, western friends." 
> A clever plan. Clever and inhuman.

 You do realize you're basically saying people in Ukraine get burned for speaking Russian? How clever is that??? 
I don't think the attitude for Russian speaking people in Ukraine pretty much differs from that for Ukrainian speaking people in Russia. But now imagine the Ukrainian community in Russia demanding that Ukrainian be the second official state language, what would you think?

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## Basil77

> But now imagine the Ukrainian community in Russia demanding that Ukrainian be the second official state language, what would you think?

 Ukrainian is already the second official state language in the subject of Russian Fedration - Crimean Republic along with Russian and Crimean Tatarian, according to new Crimean Constitution:   

> 11 апреля 2014 года на внеочередном заседании Госсовета была утверждена Конституция Республики  Крым .  Конституция состоит из 10 глав и 95 статей, её основные положения схожи  со статьями Основного закона РФ. Согласно новой Конституции, Республика   Крым   (РК) является демократическим, правовым государством в составе  Российской Федерации и равноправным субъектом РФ. Источником власти в РК  является её народ — часть многонационального народа РФ. Республика  Крым  имеет три  государственных   языка  —  русский, украинский и крымско-татарский. Высшим должностным лицом  является глава республики, который избирается депутатами Госсовета  Крыма  сроком на пять лет и не может замещать эту должность более двух сроков подряд[20].

 This means that any official document written in Ukrainian has the same legal power as a document written in Russian.

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## DrBaldhead

> You do realize you're basically saying people in Ukraine get burned for speaking Russian? How clever is that???

 I do realize that you are twisting my words. Don't be silly, you did understand what I meant. 
Moreover, do you really believe that those blood hungry nazi shall stop at Odessa or South-East? Remember "the previous nazi". And don't be amazed when even you will be forced to hide your relation with Russian culture via the language when your turn comes.  

> I don't think the attitude for Russian speaking people in Ukraine pretty much differs from that for Ukrainian speaking people in Russia. But now imagine the Ukrainian community in Russia demanding that Ukrainian be the second official state language, what would you think?

 You mean Ukrainian language that even the majority of Ukraine population doesn't speak? How clever is that?
Also you might have forgot that your government didn't want to give Russian language even the regional status. 
Besides, Crimea now has even 3 official languages: Russian, Ukrainian and Crimean Tatarian. All three are totally equal. As a republic in a federation, they can have it now.

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## UhOhXplode

The results of the police investigation in Odessa:
All the victims were Ukrainian citizens.
All the victims were unarmed.
Most of the victims were 40-60 years old. 
They only occupied the Trade Union building to seek shelter from the attacks of the Right Sector militia. The survivors were beaten with sticks and chains.   

> On the latest Ukrainian events, I repeat it one more time, as long as I'm not sure who started the sh*t, I cannot hold any firm opinion, but even at this point I can say the following: any innocent person who died in that conflict is a big loss and horrible tragedy, BUT any attacker with a weapon who used it to bring in violence is not even worth talking about him, and in fact the more of such individuals were wiped off, the better.

 I'm still watching and waiting for the US to issue a strong condemnation of the massacre in Odessa. I'm only giving them till midnight, tonight. If they don't issue a strong condemnation for the massacre, then I'll be forced to conclude that they are the same as the animals that slaughtered those people. 
It reminds me of what I read in American history - the invasion of the Indian nations and the massacres of the Indian people to create a new nation. And that happened less than 240 years ago - about the same time that Crimea became part of Russia under Catherine the Great. Have you ever read "Trail of Tears"? I talked to an American Indian and he told me that someday they would take their country back. And don't forget, the Mexican people still want California back. They've planted Mexican flags all over that state.
Oh, and you can add Hawaii to that list. It was taken out by a US military coup and the native Hawaiians want their land and government back too. The only response from the US was an official apology for stealing their island nation.
Tbh, I think America has more issues about controlling other country's land than Russia ever will. 
I read a lot of the history of Ukraine (980's - 2014) when I was studying Russian history. The only times that Ukraine had a stable government was when it was occupied by another country (Russia, Poland-Lithuania, Austria, etc). They did setup 4 or 5 States on Ukrainian territory during the Bolshevik period but in every case they fell into chaos and anarchy. And what's happened since 1990 doesn't convince me that they can succeed. The word "Ukraine" means "borderland" and I think that's very appropriate.
Also, nobody could have explained it better than Basil77. It's not about official borders, it's about compatriots. I also read about the Baltic snowflakes, Russian southeastern Ukraine, Belarus, and northern Kazakhstan. Even the President of Belarus said that without Russian, Belarus would cease to exist. The only important borders are Russia and Russian compatriots. When foreigners attack the compatriots they are attacking Russia. 
Special note - I consider the Russian media to be just as valid as the Western media (likely more valid in some ways). The only reason I link so much Western media is to appease pro-West members. 
I hope the crisis can be resolved diplomatically but considering the attitudes of the interim government, the US, and the EU, sometimes I seriously doubt that it can. As always in history, Ukraine is falling again into chaos and anarchy. And it just proves that the US and the EU aren't able to create a stable government... except maybe a severely authoritarian dictatorship (disguised as a democracy) to rule the people by force. Does it remind anyone of Iraq? Saddam Hussein and the interim President probably have a lot in common. He led the Al-Anfal campaign and Yatsenyuk is leading the anti-Russian campaign. The real difference is that Hussein was sentenced to death for what he did.
Also, the US is supporting Yatsenyuk's anti-Russian campaign... against Ukrainian citizens. So the interim government, imo, totally is a Nazi organization.

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## Hanna

> I'm still watching and waiting for the US to issue a strong condemnation of the massacre in Odessa.

 
Well done for having researched who died. So there were no people from Pridnestrovie that died? Ukrainian media said there were several.... 
As for Condemnation of Odessa. 
Well, did you see the RT feature where they asked Americans where Ukraine was on the map? The most common answer was roughly in the region of Kazakhstan or Central Siberia. Others quite happily put it in India or Turkey. 
As for Odessa - they probably think it's the name of a porn star or a restaurant. Or they recognise it from the title of a Robert Ludlum book. 
Ignorance of geography, history and other cultures is really helpful in a country where the government wants to mislead the population in the way that the US does. Ten years into the Afghanistan, most Americans can't find Afghanistan on a map, or name even one neighbouring country.   No doubt there'll soon be a new school shooting or dramatic court case to distract Americans.  
So few Americans are open minded like yourself, and prepared to learn something new without projecting prejudice and propaganda onto it.  
So no, the US won't offer condoleances. EU hasn't either, and at least in the EU people know where Odessa is located. The Swedish foreign minister tweeted something that suggested the burning was Russia's fault. He hates Russia with a vengeance that is bordering on obsession and has allegedly been in the pay of the CIA. William Hague (UK) is another serious Russia antagonist and also commented something snidy instead of offering condoleances. 
Meanwhile apparently the UA embassy in Moscow received tons of flowers which they ignored!

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## Eric C.

> The results of the police investigation in Odessa:
> All the victims were Ukrainian citizens.
> All the victims were unarmed.
> Most of the victims were 40-60 years old. 
> They only occupied the Trade Union building to seek shelter from the attacks of the Right Sector militia. The survivors were beaten with sticks and chains.   
> I'm still watching and waiting for the US to issue a strong condemnation of the massacre in Odessa. I'm only giving them till midnight, tonight. If they don't issue a strong condemnation for the massacre, then I'll be forced to conclude that they are the same as the animals that slaughtered those people. 
> It reminds me of what I read in American history - the invasion of the Indian nations and the massacres of the Indian people to create a new nation. And that happened less than 240 years ago - about the same time that Crimea became part of Russia under Catherine the Great. Have you ever read "Trail of Tears"? I talked to an American Indian and he told me that someday they would take their country back. And don't forget, the Mexican people still want California back. They've planted Mexican flags all over that state.
> Oh, and you can add Hawaii to that list. It was taken out by a US military coup and the native Hawaiians want their land and government back too. The only response from the US was an official apology for stealing their island nation.
> Tbh, I think America has more issues about controlling other country's land than Russia ever will. 
> ...

 Ukraine crisis: death by fire in Odessa as country suffers bloodiest day since the revolution - Telegraph  _At this point, an enraged crowd decided to march on the House of Trade Unions, located beside a park where pro-Russians had set up a small protest camp some weeks ago._ 
It occurs to me, it might be that they confused some peaceful protesters for those aggressive bastards with bats that they had previously been attacked by. If so, that's really a horrible tragedy, unbelievable by its awfulness and ridiculousness --- innocent people died while the real fascist bastards in masks with bats just ran away after committing the attack and killing some of the pro-Maidan activists. 
Though, the whole picture is still very vague, and it would be great if the entire timeline of the Friday events was finally unveiled.

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## Eric C.

> Also you might have forgot that your government didn't want to give Russian language even the regional status.

 What government do you assume is mine?

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## DrBaldhead

> What government do you assume is mine?

 The one you seem to be trying to justify.

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## Eric C.

> The one you seem to be trying to justify.

 Just in case, I'm not Ukrainian. And I'm not trying to justify any government, I'm trying to get the whole picture of what's been happening in that area, but I also have my own opinion of course, which is, people who try to keep their country up and running are prevalent over those trying to tear it to pieces. 
And by the way, I see no point in discussing the Ukrainian interim government much at all, as they have an election in 3 weeks, and so the current one is going off the stage pretty soon.

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## UhOhXplode

> Well done for having researched who died. So there were no people from Pridnestrovie that died? Ukrainian media said there were several.... 
> As for Condemnation of Odessa. 
> Well, did you see the RT feature where they asked Americans where Ukraine was on the map? The most common answer was roughly in the region of Kazakhstan or Central Siberia. Others quite happily put it in India or Turkey. 
> As for Odessa - they probably think it's the name of a porn star or a restaurant. Or they recognise it from the title of a Robert Ludlum book. 
> Ignorance of geography, history and other cultures is really helpful in a country where the government wants to mislead the population in the way that the US does. Ten years into the Afghanistan, most Americans can't find Afghanistan on a map, or name even one neighbouring country.   No doubt there'll soon be a new school shooting or dramatic court case to distract Americans.  
> So few Americans are open minded like yourself, and prepared to learn something new without projecting prejudice and propaganda onto it.  
> So no, the US won't offer condoleances. EU hasn't either, and at least in the EU people know where Odessa is located. The Swedish foreign minister tweeted something that suggested the burning was Russia's fault. He hates Russia with a vengeance that is bordering on obsession and has allegedly been in the pay of the CIA. William Hague (UK) is another serious Russia antagonist and also commented something snidy instead of offering condoleances. 
> Meanwhile apparently the UA embassy in Moscow received tons of flowers which they ignored!

 The Ukrainian media released that news before the investigation was completed. They were all Ukrainians.
LOL @ porn star or restaurant! I needed something to make me feel better and that did. =) It's just that everything I was taught to hate, the US keeps doing. It's almost funny. Wherever I live I'll always have a house to live in but I feel homeless. Have you ever heard "Believe In Nothing" by the band "All That Remains"? It's how I feel. Well, maybe it's easy for older generations to hate on other countries but it's not easy for me or my friends. It's just pointless and I haven't seen anything in Russia to hate. Every time I watch a youtube about life in Russia, I wish I was there and the May Day parade was amazing. I'll be watching on May 9th too since it was the Red Army that saved everyone from the Nazis. The whole world should celebrate that. 
Well, maybe old people in the US are all happy about living in a world full of violence and fear but that's not what we want for our future. And some of us don't want our kids growing up in a country they can't believe in.
So yeah, being open-minded is very important right now to save the world and make it a better place... for ourselves and for our kids, when we have them. I don't know anybody in my generation that isn't concerned about that. 
And yeah, I haven't seen the UK response but I did see what Carl Bildt posted. He's no better than the Right Sector animals that slaughtered those people. It's 19:25 here now so the US has less than 5 hours left to issue a strong condemnation of the slaughter and offer their condolences to the families and friends of the victims. It's a life-changing event for us and we won't give them any more time.  
Oh, and about the location of Ukraine, lol. I'm in a private school and our courses are obviously more advanced than what the public schools offer. I know some public school graduates couldn't even find Vermont in the US on a map, lol! I know something about every country on the European continent and can easily locate them on a map. I also know the history for some of the countries like Russia, India, the UK, China, Germany, Slovenia, Italy, and the Roman Empire. But the country I know the most history of is Russia and I've studied the topography too. I like really cold climates and especially countries that have lots of climate variety and hey, Russia has polar bears and palm trees! =D   

> Ukraine crisis: death by fire in Odessa as country suffers bloodiest day since the revolution - Telegraph  _At this point, an enraged crowd decided to march on the House of Trade Unions, located beside a park where pro-Russians had set up a small protest camp some weeks ago._ 
> It occurs to me, it might be that they confused some peaceful protesters for those aggressive bastards with bats that they had previously been attacked by. If so, that's really a horrible tragedy, unbelievable by its awfulness and ridiculousness --- innocent people died while the real fascist bastards in masks with bats just ran away after committing the attack and killing some of the pro-Maidan activists. 
> Though, the whole picture is still very vague, and it would be great if the entire timeline of the Friday events was finally unveiled.

 I'm very happy to see that you're open-minded about the events. That deserves rep. And I'll be watching for more news on the investigations since there's so many unanswered questions. But I still have very serious issues with anyone that would set someone on fire and beat them to death when they try to escape. Even when one of my friends was slammed, I confronted the dude and demanded to know what was going down before I slammed him. That's the honorable way to fight. 
They shoulda found a way to break into the building and confront them. Imo, torching and beating people isn't an option for humans.
But it's already 20:15 and Saturday night so I gotta bounce.

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## it-ogo

Попытка разобраться в произошедшем в Одессе невзирая на истерики с обеих сторон.  Прямо сейчас! - Что в действительности произошло в Одессе вчера...
Выводы по этому и прочим источникам:
- Боевики, участвовавшие в провокации на Греческой в целом действовали как толпа, но кем-то более-менее уверенно направлялись.
- Провокаторы с огнестрелом, разогревавшие толпу на Греческой, стреляли из-за спин и щитов милиции и координировали с ней свои действия.
- Нет указаний на то, что захватившие Дом Профсоюзов (и горевшие там) имеют отношение к провокации на Греческой. 
- Наблюдения о странном поведении организаторов защиты ДП не вполне убедительны, но достойны внимания (баррикады внутри здания, препятствовавшие побегам при пожаре).
- В предположениях о странном характере возгораний ДП без настоящих экспертов не разобраться.
- Характер отравлений дымом жертв в ДП предполагает крайнюю токсичность этого дыма (нехарактерные позы угоревших и т.д.). Надо разбираться, что горело.

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## it-ogo

> I think it's obvious that people like It-ogo are very small minority in Donetsk and Lugansk regions despite his claims. If it would be otherwise, than why so-called "green men" were welcomed in towns like Kramotorsk and Slavyansk but "legal Ukrainian army" is beeing met by locals like this (warning, lot's of swearing):  Краматорск 3.05 военные вошли в город - YouTube

 Those are people who came from the barricaded central square (3-4 blocks down) within few hours after militaries arrived. Before all the morning a car with a loud-hailer was inviting people to the central square "to protect the city". At that very time the central square remained empty (though armed people were in buildings). That is swearing people in video are ALL unarmed people ready to interfere and abuse militaries. (Well, to be accurate there was one more such group several blocks from there.) Note that those militaries are known for giving up to the unarmed civilians with weapon and armored cars several days ago. Note also that those people are mostly hiding faces from camera and that they know and pay attention where the camera is. 
There were real people from houses in the arcs and passages around but they didn't come close and were silent. Maybe they wanted to talk or whatever but didn't dare to interfere the group of loud and aggressive people.   
These are people came to pro-ukr meeting in our city captured by foreign machine-gunners with unknown schedule that were already known for being ready to shoot and for taking several hostages. Bad place for making movie though, most people in the back didn't get to the camera.  
Our city is about 200,000 total (165,000 voters). 
Our police chief who organized the protection of our meeting now is among the hostages in Slaviansk if alive.  *NOW (after beginning of ATO) all sane people here (independently of their political views) are silent and don't show themselves. All "events" you can see in video FROM NOW are freak show performances.*

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## Hanna

I read somewhere that this is a bit of a "class" issue in Eastern Ukraine, and that fits with what it-ogo is saying. Essentially what I read hinted that the workers are more pro-Russia, and educated people are more pro Ukraine. I didn't quite understand why that would be, but it seems to match with the looks/behaviour of people I've seen on TV, the swearing etc, and the fact that it-ogo (pro-Ukraine) is well educated, English speaking etc.  
Also - an age factor involved; younger people who paid attention in school 1992-today are slightly more likely to be pro Ukraine because of school curriculum etc, and just out of habit.  
Then I  read a long rant by a Russian nationalist who had somewhat conflicting themes. One of his main point was that Russian nationalists looked down a bit on Eastern Ukraine as "backwards", not very clever people, and a "Soviet mentality" (intended as an insult).  
So his reasoning was "why should Russia take risks for such people".  I wouldn't have any idea at all, but there are a lot of Soviet and communist flags showing on TV with the protestors. This type of outlook seems to be popular in Eastern Ukraine. The piece I read explained that this was because of the Donbass being a prestige project in the USSR with people moving there from all over.  
Finally, the Russian nationalist seemed conflicted about who exactly in Ukraine is a "Slavic brother" and who isn't - and who needed to be liberated from what. I don't know a great deal about extreme nationalism in Russia so it was interesting to read that perspective.

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## Hanna

And isn't it tragic how the free press is dead? 
No Western paper will say who put the Union building in Odessa on fire. 
For that we have to turn to the Russian media which may be truthful about a lot of things, but is not necessarily about lots of goings on inside of Russia. 
Anyone who wants a truthful narrative about anything has to spend silly time online trying to read sources in different languages. Or else just give up and believe what you are told without questioning, or become a tin-foil conspiracy theorist who doesn't trust anyone.

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## it-ogo

> I read somewhere that this is a bit of a "class" issue in Eastern Ukraine, and that fits with what it-ogo is saying. Essentially what I read hinted that the workers are more pro-Russia, and educated people are more pro Ukraine. I didn't quite understand why that would be, but it seems to match with the looks/behaviour of people I've seen on TV, the swearing etc, and the fact that it-ogo (pro-Ukraine) is well educated, English speaking etc.

 The reason is obvious: educated people can have an idea of perspectives and real consequences of making our region a rogue state under the control of Russian militaries (there are three such states already so we can compare). Less educated people don't think about that, they just feel abused by Kiev's rebellion and say "why can't we do the same?"   

> Then I  read a long rant by a Russian nationalist who had somewhat conflicting themes. One of his main point was that Russian nationalists looked down a bit on Eastern Ukraine as "backwards", not very clever people, and a "Soviet mentality" (intended as an insult).   So his reasoning was "why should Russia take risks for such people".

 
That is the newest trend Russian press started to introduce step by step. Putin needs an excuse why he will not help "brothers" after so many encouragings and stimulations of "Russian spring".   

> Iwouldn't have any idea at all, but there are a lot of Soviet and communist flags showing on TV with the protestors. This type of outlook seems to be popular in Eastern Ukraine. The piece I read explained that this was because of the Donbass being a prestige project in the USSR with people moving there from all over.

 They appeal to oldest men and women with the nostalgie about USSR. For some reason believe that Russia is something like old good USSR and the most active of them can make many noise as they don't need to work already.   

> No Western paper will say who put the Union building in Odessa on fire.

 And who did? As far as I understand the fire started almost simultaneously in many places of the building. And the defenders intensively used Molotov's cocktails. We have no investigation results for now.

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## Hanna

Thanks for the interesting comments. I have some questions for you - a bit blunt so apologies in advance. Just ignore if you don't want to answer. 
I can understand that Russia may not appeal to you, and that you are patriotic about being Ukrainian.  
However, the negative things in Russia are present in Ukraine too, aren't they? Corruption, oligarchs, poverty, possible lack of democracy (although it expresses itself quite differently in Ukraine, compared to Russia.  
I am not being insulting or patronising, just comparing with other "language minorities" or border areas that I am familiar with. It's a complicated equation, which nationality people end up identifying with..... Clearly, in Eastern Ukraine - it varies from person to person.  
I assume you were born in the USSR, so it's not like Ukrainian is your "birth" nationality, right? And you don't speak Ukrainian in everyday life... So it's hard to understand where the strong Ukrainian patriotism came from? Or is it more a case of "better the devil you know", i.e. Ukraine is marginally better than Russia (why?) Do you despise Russia for some reason? 
What if you'd have stability, significantly more money in your pocket and the bilingual status of your region guaranteed as a Russian citizen? Would that be so bad? I am guessing that's how the miners, pensioners and others reason. Perhaps for you the economic aspect is irrelevant?  
Doesn't it bother you, that foreign countries spur on an undemocratic coup d'etat in your country, that Ukraine doesn't seem to be able to manage its budget regardless of who is in charge and that people in equivalent cities in Russia are better off? I mean, it's been 22 years, and Russia is doing a lot better, at least in the big cities. Whatever else you can say about Belarus, it's stable and everyone has a job. But Ukraine...?!  
I mean, Russia didn't start this, it just reacted to it. It was started by the Western Ukrainians mostly as I understand, and then re-inforced and spurred on by the EU and USA. 
My country also has brother nations, and if things went totally down the drain with foreign meddling, undemocratic rulers, failed economy etc, I'd seriously look towards Norway, Finland or Denmark, swallowing my pride. The nationalism is not an issue, since the countries are so similar culturally, neither is language. Particularly if they guaranteed my language and offered a better living standard, I think I'd make the pragmatic choice. What am I missing here?  
As for what Russia and Putin does - I think Putin has played the silence game for a very long time. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know to do.  
And this situation is "damned if you do, damned if you don't" from the Russian perspective! 
Particularly if, as Basil77 says, domestic opinion in Russia is now in favour of intervention and will think that Putin is a "pussy" if he doesn't. 
Whereas in the international perspective, Putin would launch at the very least the start of the new Cold War, if not a real war.  
it-Ogo, I guess the thought must have occurred to you: 
What will you DO, if Russia actually goes in with troops on the ground? 
Would you join some kind of resistance, physical, or other.... 
Or would you just say "here we go again, 3rd nationality and counting..." and get on with life.... Or look to move West within Ukraine, alt. emigrate...

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## UhOhXplode

> And isn't it tragic how the free press is dead?
> No Western paper will say who put the Union building in Odessa on fire. 
> For that we have to turn to the Russian media which may be truthful about a lot of things, but is not necessarily about lots of goings on inside of Russia.
>  Anyone who wants a truthful narrative about anything has to spend silly time online trying to read sources in different languages. Or else just give up and believe what you are told without questioning, or become a tin-foil conspiracy theorist who doesn't trust anyone.

 Conspiracy theory happens when people get a narrative in the media that doesn't fit the real world. They know someone's hiding something but they don't know what. That's when imagination (and usually fantasy) takes over.
The best way to find real information in the media is keywords and teamwork. For example, my assignment was to help find a US condemnation of what happened in Odessa.
Step 1 - Find all US mainstream media (I have a list) using the search term "Odessa Russia fire".
Step 2 - Copy/paste each article and use search terms "Obama" and "Kerry". 
Step 3 - Speed read each case. If something positive shows up, bookmark it.
The search took less than 30 minutes and I found the article. With just a few people working on 30 minute projects, you'd be amazed at how much relevant news we can collect in just one hour. Everyone contributes something. 
For the first time in a long time there was a virtual media blackout, in the mainstream US media, for what happened in Odessa. But I did find a US condemnation of the event.  

> Secretary of State John Kerry said that the United States condemned violence by militant groups on all sides. “That includes the violence of anyone who lit a fire and caused the death of those 38 people or more in the building in Odessa,” he said.

 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...ref=world&_r=1 
I seriously doubt that President Putin will order an invasion unless he's convinced that the pro-Russians will lose if he doesn't. And it wouldn't be the first time a war was won without boots on ground.

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## it-ogo

> I can understand that Russia may not appeal to you, and that you are patriotic about being Ukrainian.

 I have no much sentiments about specific Ukrainian culture, history and national movement. For me as ethnic Russian, Russian culture is much closer. My position is a question of practice as Ukraine is the only chance for us here in Donbass for the decent life. Also I feel responcibility of Ukraine being its citizen for many years.     

> However, the negative things in Russia are present in Ukraine too, aren't they? Corruption, oligarchs, poverty, possible lack of democracy (although it expresses itself quite differently in Ukraine, compared to Russia.

 In Russia all these things are conserved and accepted by the population. In Ukraine we are trying to fight them. That is the difference. That and the people. The people are different and the difference grows.    

> I assume you were born in the USSR, so it's not like Ukrainian is your "birth" nationality, right? And you don't speak Ukrainian in everyday life... So it's hard to understand where the strong Ukrainian patriotism came from? Or is it more a case of "better the devil you know", i.e. Ukraine is marginally better than Russia (why?) Do you despise Russia for some reason?

 I told you above. I have been in Russia enough many times. The people in Ukraine (even here, in Donbass) are less cruel, more polite, with less xenophobia and more dignity. That was my feeling and that was my first step. The second step was my intellect, which says that Russia now goes VERY wrong way. And the final step was the last events.   

> What if you'd have stability, significantly more money in your pocket and the bilingual status of your region guaranteed as a Russian citizen.

 If there were a Russia of my dream, I'd prefer it to any kind of Ukraine. But Russia is what it is.   

> Doesn't it bother you, that foreign countries spur on an undemocratic coup d'etat in your country,

 The Maidan events are very complicated phenomenon and the definition "an undemocratic coup d'etat" is absolutely marginal in my eyes. The influence of foreign countries were much less, than Russian propaganda says, I think.   

> that Ukraine doesn't seem to be able to manage its budget regardless of who is in charge

 The previous government failed drastically in many areas and the rebellions (both Maidan and current disorders) are the consequences. We need urgent reformations and the spiritual raise of people from Maidan could help to conduct them.    

> and that people in equivalent cities in Russia are better off?

 That is not true. In my knowledge most Russians are much worse "off" despite even of bigger average income (the difference in prices is much bigger). The quality of life in my feeling in Ukraine is better than in Russia in average. The Moscow is rich but the Russia is poor. Some people from Ukraine (including the ones I know) go to work to Moscow (not to the "equivalent cities") and despite of being regularly humiliated there, they like to live "like people in Moscow". Still we have no enough raw oil and gas to support Moscow level of life here. We must work and evolve to live better, no other way.   

> I mean, Russia didn't start this, it just reacted to it. It was started by the Western Ukrainians mostly as I understand, and then re-inforced and spurred on by the EU and USA.

 Ukraine started rebellion against corruption. Russia stroke our back invading Crimea then started and fuelled rebellion against Ukraine to distract everibody from Russia's actions in Crimea.   

> My country also has brother nations, and if things went totally down the drain with foreign meddling, undemocratic rulers, failed economy etc, I'd seriously look towards Norway or Finland, particularly if they guaranteed my language and offered a better living standard. What am I missing here?

 And what if they guaranteed much worse standards? Do you know how many Russian intellectuals found a job and new home in Kiev because of being pressed in Russia? And how many come regularly to do what can't be done in Russia? Ukraine is the only country for them to guarantee both political freedoms and their language. Probably that is the real reason why Putin attacked us. We present danger for his power because Ukraine is becoming more attractive for Russian intellectual and creative class than the very Russia. In return he stroke us with our poorest and least responsible but most aggressive class plus his militaries, propaganda machine and oil&gas money as he did before to Russian intelligencia.   

> What will you DO, if Russia actually goes in. Would you join some kind of resistance, physical, or other.... Or would you just say "here we go again, 3rd nationality and counting..." and get on with life.... Or look to move West in Ukraine, alt. emigrate...

 If Russia actually goes in I feel myself now evil enough to celebrate, as I am sure that it would sign the economical and organizational death penalty of Russia. Then... I am not a combatant neither a resistance organizer. I'll try to emigrate as far as possible to save my family and life from ongoing economical crash of Russia which promises to be very bloody.

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## EfreytoR_S



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## diogen_

> As for what Russia and Putin does - I think Putin has played the silence game for a very long time. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know to do.

 Putin  knows what to do quite well. He patiently expects for the looming failure  of the currently lackadaisical “anti-terror operation” and successive toppling  of the “interim government” by angry  mobs in Kiev. Then,the newly fledged “right sector” junta will  turn out to be responsible for real genocide in some region of Ukraine or other, and he will be able to liberate Novorussia from fascism without any risk of further sanctions and starting off WW3.  ::

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## Lampada

> ...

 Зачем раздувать?  Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

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## Hanna

Awesome response from it-ogo. Now I understand exactly where he's coming from, and I respect this position. I can definitely see that it makes sense.   _Yes Ukrainians are very nice people. I was so surprised. Of all European nations I have visited, that's among the best I have ever been treated by locals, and it was genuine, not for any gain. It was too long ago since I visited Russia, and very different times, so I can't compare with Russia. _ 
I feel like a detached spectator here, since it genuinely doesn't matter to me what happens, and since I can understand both perspectives.  
But it feels unethical somehow, to be _very_ interested in something which has already cost a lot of people their lives, and yet not take a strong position either way.   

> Putin  knows what to do quite well. He patiently  expects for the looming failure  of the currently lackadaisical  “anti-terror operation” and successive toppling  of the “interim  government” by angry  mobs in Kiev. Then,the newly fledged “right  sector” junta will  turn out to be responsible for real genocide in some  region of Ukraine or other, and he will be able to liberate Novorussia  from fascism without any risk of further sanctions and starting off WW3.

 Well, if entering Ukraine is really his "secret" objective, then it's a game of poker. 
He  cannot know for sure what cards will be dealt, or how his opponent will  play. He can have a strategy but only God, not Putin, knows how this  will end.... ! He has a dilemma at his hands. This is partly a "Bay of Pigs" type moment in Russian political history.  
I imagine they have a few scenarios planned out.  At least one includes entering Ukraine, in different ways. Plus another  plan for how to look after Russia's interests without entering  Ukraine... 
As for what Russia can lose. Nothing, I think. 
The  US can never fight Russia in Ukraine, and it seems totally unlikely  that Ukraine can put up any resistanse against Russia on its own. Or  would even bother much trying. Sanctions against Russia that would  actually matter are not a serious option for Europe in 2014. So it's  totally down to Putin and the other leaders in RU how they are going to  handle this.  
I can think of one big obstacle: If the population  in Russia turns against Putin because of anything he does in Ukraine.   But it does not seem likely. Basil77 said it's the opposite; people are  wondering why Putin doesn't move.  
On the other hand I don't  think Russia (Putin) wants all or parts of Ukraine just to make the  country bigger or some kind of safety buffer. This is not the 19th  century... There are other ways to control a country than moving  borders.  
Possibly he wants it purely to stop it from becoming a NATO country or sphere of influence.

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## EfreytoR_S

> Зачем раздувать?  Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

 Верное замечание. Разместил видео для контраста, чтобы увидели, что есть и другая позиция, т.к. почти все без исключения западные СМИ пестрят абсолютно противоположными слоганами, обвинениями и пропагандистскими речевками, где, согласно никогда не теряющему своей популярности тренду, во всем и всегда виновата РФ (СССР, Российская Империя). И по поводу фашиствующих элементов - да, они есть в любой стране. Но тот расцвет и поддержку мирового сообщества, которые эти *элементы* получили на Украине, сейчас сложно найти где бы то ни было. На ум приходят только массовые выступления ККК в США и становление Германии 30-х гг. Согласитесь, аналогии не самые светлые.

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## Basil77

> Зачем раздувать?  Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

 Разница в том, что в мерзостном геополитическом анклаве, который сегодня называются "государство украина," эти элементы являются основой политики действующих властей и к тому же поддерживаются теми лицемерными тварями, которые находятся у власти в западных странах.

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## RedFox

> Зачем раздувать?  Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

 Фашиствующие элементы можно найти где угодно.
А вот реальных фашистов сегодня можно найти только на Украине.

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## RedFox

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...ref=world&_r=0

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## Sergey1981

I live in Russia. Here's my opinion. Putin pursues his object - geopolitical. It's very important for him, and oh yeah, for all Russians! It's very important whose rockets will be placed there - Russian or NATO's... Of course he doesn't care about Ukraine's people destiny, and no matter what he says! But what about new Ukraine's authorities? These are very aggressive people too. They are ready for any bloodshed. Their ideas are really looking like fascism! They will never forgive East!.. 
And now, just imagine: There are simple people are between the devil and the deep sea! I mean Russians and Ukrains... It's just politics and nothing else! Every educated person must understand it!

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## UhOhXplode

I agree that the "Ukraine Crisis Uncensored" video focuses on only one side. But it's the one side that's ignored by most Western media. If outsiders never see something then it's easy to forget it exists. 
And why should Americans or Europeans forget it exists if it's part of what their countries are financing and supporting.
Well, since the interim government has declared war against it's own people and is taking political prisoners (I believe that's called political oppression & authoritarianism), I was very happy to learn that pro-Russian Ukrainians rescued 67 of them from the Ukrainian jail.   

> Earlier, hundreds of pro-Russian activists shouting, "Odessa is a Russian city, one for all and all for one," attacked the police headquarters, forcing open its gate and breaking windows as they called for the release of their detained comrades. In a tense scene filled with arguments but with no shots fired, the separatists took down the Ukrainian flag and convinced the officers to release the detainees, according to a CNN team on the ground. 
> The crowd cheered as the detainees left the police compound, and many were embraced by friends and relatives.

 Ukraine releases protesters; PM visits Odessa - CNN.com

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## Hanna

All English speaking people and Europeans reading this; please tell your friends to watch *RT* to get the other perspective on this. Streaming live, ad free hi-res online. 
Ukraine is a country in Europe, we cannot allow ourselves to be fooled on this. You need both perspectives.   _[And @Russians - perhaps take a peek to see what the BBC or Euronews has to say on this. Not all of it is lies... Euronews streams live and has an audiostream in Russian. BBC World should be available on cable (?)]_ 
If your friends say RT is "Russian propaganda" just ask them if they are so narrow minded that they only want to hear one side of the story, or if their views are so loosely held that they can't handle a bit of propaganda.... 
The propaganda onslaught that you are getting in Western media is so brutal that the only thing that will shake it, is to get the other side of the story, forcefully, and that's what RT does. We can worry about whether it's propaganda or not later. You won't become a Putin zombie just because you watch 30 minutes of RT. I promise.  
How many times are we going to allow ourselves to be fooled about important conflicts by CNN, BBC etc? Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and many more... 
Time to make an active choice about what you information you allow yourself to be subjected to and what you believe. Show CNN & co what you think about their one sided propaganda by changing channel!   

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKuDzXAgdf4

 
To watch this, you have to sign in, verify your age and then I got "not available". 
Censorship much, youtube?

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## UhOhXplode

> All English speaking people and Europeans reading this; please tell your friends to watch *RT* to get the other perspective on this. Streaming live, ad free hi-res online. 
> Ukraine is a country in Europe, we cannot allow ourselves to be fooled on this. You need both perspectives.   _[And @Russians - perhaps take a peek to see what the BBC or Euronews has to say on this. Not all of it is lies... Euronews streams live and has an audiostream in Russian. BBC World should be available on cable (?)]_ 
> If your friends say RT is "Russian propaganda" just ask them if they are so narrow minded that they only want to hear one side of the story, or if their views are so loosely held that they can't handle a bit of propaganda.... 
> The propaganda onslaught that you are getting in Western media is so brutal that the only thing that will shake it, is to get the other side of the story, forcefully, and that's what RT does. We can worry about whether it's propaganda or not later. You won't become a Putin zombie just because you watch 30 minutes of RT. I promise.  
> How many times are we going to allow ourselves to be fooled about important conflicts by CNN, BBC etc? Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and many more... 
> Time to make an active choice about what you information you allow yourself to be subjected to and what you believe. Show CNN & co what you think about their one sided propaganda by changing channel! 
> To watch this, you have to sign in, verify your age and then I got "not available". 
> Censorship much, youtube?

 The best side to watch is every side. And yean, RT has really good coverage for Ukraine.
About that video: It's age restricted. A lot of the Ukraine videos are. You have to get adult permissions to watch them.

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## Hanna

Well this one is not censored so far. 
The complete call where Victoria Nuland discusses who should sit in the UA interim government. The exact people she wants are in, and Klitschko is out, which is also what she's saying.  
Video subbed in Russian, but I am not sure the arrogance of their tone comes across in the translation. It's absolutely unbelievable to discuss leaders of a large European country as if they were children or imbecills, and it certainly shows who is pulling the strings behind the scene in the coup d'etat _(sorry it-ogo, but this is irrefutable proof that there is SERIOUS meddling going on)._      _Then on the other hand, this also shows *somebody* has a very effective monitoring of phone calls set up. And this time it probably wasn't the NSA.... Excellent quality. I wonder how many thousand calls they had to listen to to get that one._

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## Eric C.

> I agree that the "Ukraine Crisis Uncensored" video focuses on only one side. But it's the one side that's ignored by most Western media. If outsiders never see something then it's easy to forget it exists. 
> And why should Americans or Europeans forget it exists if it's part of what their countries are financing and supporting.
> Well, since the interim government has declared war against it's own people and is taking political prisoners (I believe that's called political oppression & authoritarianism), I was very happy to learn that pro-Russian Ukrainians rescued 67 of them from the Ukrainian jail.   Ukraine releases protesters; PM visits Odessa - CNN.com

 That article, however, doesn't shed light on what those cell guys really did on Friday. It says something about their participance in violent clashes though. I can't say for sure if that has actually been proved, but are you completely sure it hasn't? It's disgusting if any of those violent felons are among those "released" ones. 
Besides, do you think assaulting a police department with the purpose of helping the prisoners inside escape is a good idea anywhere? Do you realize what that would get you if you attempted to do that in the U.S. ? Those people used the complete chaos in the city as their cover, and what they did actually showed they aren't really willing to respect the law. And if that's the case, maybe their will shouldn't be respected either?

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## 14Russian

> Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.
> And don't put analogy with Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Middle-Asian stans (except Kazakhstan) and Caucasus, please. Baltics were always considered as "special snowflakes" even in Soviet Union. Despite some disputable cities, like Narva, no one here consider, say, Estonians our compatriots. But most questions with Baltic countries were succesfully solved in the last years, borders officially marked, etc. Ukraine is completley different case.

 I get it now.   So, it's a psychological and mental issue.   " you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke."   So, it was okay when Yanukovych was in power and that when Tymoshenko stole money and made sure that Putin had a cushy deal - that was okay because, in essence, Ukraine was somewhat of a de facto Kremlin government?   Right?   Thus, corruption, killing Ukrainian citizens that don't worship the Kremlin is justified to maintain the status quo and make sure that Ukraine steps in line of what the Kremlin wants.   That makes sense.   deleted. L.

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## RedFox

Deleted.  L.Зачем такие ужасы сюда тащить?

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