# Forum About Russia Politics  Jewish genocide against Russia, Ukraine..........
My relatives and my fellow Christians were murdered in the USSR under Jewish Marxism between 1917-1945, and many of the Marxists came to Russia from New York to do this to Christians in 1917 after Jacob Schiff, the Jewish anti-Christian maniac banker who owned The Guaranty National Trust, the largest bank in the United States, financed Lenin and Trotsky $35 million for the Red Revolution and the mass killing of these Christian souls. We must never forget this! Nicholas Utin, a Jew, the First Russian Marist, 1860's to 1870's.
Instrumental in Creating a Russian Section in the First Communist International. 
'In the 1860s and '70s, Jewish activists occupied some of the highest positions in the fledgling Russian revolutionary movement. The "pioneer of Russian-Jewish revolutionary action" was Nicholas Utin, a baptised Jew who was instrumental in creating a Russian Section in the First International. Known as the first Russian Marxist, Utin was prominent in the struggle of the International's Marxian wing against the anarchistic tactics of Bakunin. ' 
-- Philip Mendes, THE NEW LEFT, THE JEWS AND THE VIETNAM WAR, 1965-1972, Lazare Press, North Caulfield, Victoria, Australia, p 10 from material printed originally in Parkin, A.L. The Origins of the Russian-Jewish Labour Movement. F.W.Cheshire Pty Ltd. Melbourne. 1947. p80.   
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Jewish Founders of the Russian Social-Democratic Movement in 1883
Hesya Helfmann, Jewish Assassin of Czar Alexander 
"Utin was followed by a great number of Jews including Mark Natanson, the founder of the Russian Narodnik movement, Paul Axeirod who together with George Plckahnov and Vera Zasulitch formed the "Triumvirate" of the founders of the Russian Social-Democratic movement in 1883, Rosalie Bograd who married Plekhanov, Meir Molodetsky, Gregory Goldenberg, Mw Deutch, Vladimir Jochelson, Aaron Sundelievitch, and Hesya Helfmann, who was among those sentenced to death for the assassination of Czar Alexander." 
-- Philip Mendes, THE NEW LEFT, THE JEWS AND THE VIETNAM WAR, 1965-1972, Lazare Press, North Caulfield, Victoria, Australia, p 10 from information found in: Parkin, A.L. The Origins of the Russian-Jewish Labour Movement. F.W.Cheshire Pty Ltd. Melbourne. 1947. pp8O-84; Feuer, Op Cit, pp157-158; Ascher, Abraham. "Pavel Axelrod: A Conflict Between Jewish Loyalty and Revolutionary Dedication" in Russian Review 24 1965, pp249-265; Schapiro, Leonard. "The Role of the Jews in the Russian Revolutionary Movement" in Slavonic and East European Review 490 (Dec 1961), pp 148-167.   
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Jewish Socialism in 1980-1900.
Revolutionary Emotion and Socialist Protests Among Jewish Student Youth. 
'In the following two decades - in the '80s and '90s - the "explosion of revolutionary emotion among Jewish student youth" crystallised into a movement of Jewish socialism, the first of its kind in Jewish history.'4 Patkin traces the origins of "Jewish Socialism" to the "two explosive elements - mass misery and intellectual doctrine" which had existed in Jewish life for many previous generations. These explosive elements had often produced mass revolts against the rich and the powerful in communal affairs, one example being the emergence of the Chassidic movement, Jewish socialism reflected the extension of Chassidism as a doctrine "for the poor" into a "revolutionary situation of social protest and resentment."' 
-- Philip Mendes, THE NEW LEFT, THE JEWS AND THE VIETNAM WAR, 1965-1972, Lazare Press, North Caulfield, Victoria, Australia, p 10, from material gathered in Parkin, A.L. The Origins of the Russian-Jewish Labour Movement. F.W.Cheshire Pty Ltd. Melbourne. 1947. p80.   
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THE JEWISH GULAG WORK CAMPS FOR THEIR USSR POLITICAL PRISONERS  http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhibit/gulag.html Found on this site on July 12, 1998 
The Soviet system of forced labor camps was first established in 1919 under the Cheka, but it was not until the early 1930s that the camp population reached significant numbers. By 1934 the GULAG, or Main Directorate for Corrective Labor Camps, then under the Cheka's successor organization the NKVD, had several million inmates. Prisoners included murderers, thieves, and other common criminals-along with political and religious dissenters. The GULAG, whose camps were located mainly in remote regions of Siberia and the Far North, made significant contributions to the Soviet economy in the period of Joseph Stalin. GULAG prisoners constructed the White Sea-Baltic Canal, the Moscow-Volga Canal, the Baikal-Amur main railroad line, numerous hydroelectric stations, and strategic roads and industrial enterprises in remote regions. GULAG manpower was also used for much of the country's lumbering and for the mining of coal, copper, and gold. Stalin constantly increased the number of projects assigned to the NKVD, which led to an increasing reliance on its labor. The GULAG also served as a source of workers for economic projects independent of the NKVD, which contracted its prisoners out to various economic enterprises. Conditions in the camps were extremely harsh. Prisoners received inadequate food rations and insufficient clothing, which made it difficult to endure the severe weatherand the long working hours; sometimes the inmates were physically abused by camp guards. As a result, the death rate from exhaustion and disease in the camps was high. After Stalin died in 1953, the GULAG population was reduced significantly, and conditions for inmates somewhat improved. Forced labor camps continued to exist, although on a small scale, into the Gorbachev period, and the government even opened some camps to scrutiny by journalists and human rights activists. With the advance of democratization, political prisoners and prisoners of conscience all but disappeared from the camps. [NOTE: The communists had their concentration camps in service since 1919 all the way up to and including the Gorbachev period.]   
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INHUMANE CONDITIONS IN THE GULAG SYSTEM INVENTED BY JEWS RUNNING THE USSR:  http://sunsite.unc.edu/expo/soviet.exhi ... resid.html Found on this site on July 12, 1998 
To the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolshevik) We appeal to you, asking you to pay a minimum of attention to our request. We are prisoners who are returning from the Solovetsky concentration camp because of our poor health. We went there full of energy and good health, and now we are returning as invalids, broken and crippled emotionally and physically. We are asking you to draw your attention to the arbitrary use of power and the violence that reign at the Solovetsky concentration camp in Kemi and in all sections of the concentration camp. It is difficult for a human being even to imagine such terror, tyranny, violence, and lawlessness. When we went there, we could not conceive of such a horror, and now we, crippled ourselves, together with several thousands who are still there, appeal to the ruling center of the Soviet state to curb the terror that reigns there. As though it weren't enough that the Unified State Political Directorate [OGPU] without oversight and due process sends workers and peasants there who are by and large innocent (we are not talking about criminals who deserve to be punished), the former tsarist penal servitude system in comparison to Solovky had 99% more humanity, fairness, and legality. [...] People die like flies, i.e., they die a slow and painful death; we repeat that all this torment and suffering is placed only on the shoulders of the proletariat without money, i.e., on workers who, we repeat, were unfortunate to find themselves in the period of hunger and destruction accompanying the events of the October Revolution, and who committed crimes only to save themselves and their families from death by starvation; they have already borne the punishment for these crimes, and the vast majority of them subsequently chose the path of honest labor. Now because of their past, for whose crime they have already paid, they are fired from their jobs. Yet, the main thing is that the entire weight of this scandalous abuse of power, brute violence, and lawlessness that reign at Solovky and other sections of the OGPU concentration camp is placed on the shoulders of workers and peasants; others, such as counterrevolutionaries, profiteers and so on, have full wallets and have set themselves up and live in clover in the Soviet State, while next to them, in the literal meaning of the word, the penniless proletariat dies from hunger, cold, and back-breaking 14-16 hour days under the tyranny and lawlessness of inmates who are the agents and collaborators of the State Political Directorate [GPU]. If you complain or write anything ("Heaven forbid"), they will frame you for an attempted escape or for something else, and they will shoot you like a dog. They line us up naked and barefoot at 22 degrees below zero and keep us outside for up to an hour. It is difficult to describe all the chaos and terror that is going on in Kemi, Solovky, and the other sections of the concentrations camp. All annual inspections uncover a lot of abuses. But what they discover in comparison to what actually exists is only a part of the horror and abuse of power, which the inspection accidently uncovers. (One example is the following fact, one of a thousand, which is registered in GPU and for which the guilty have been punished: THEY FORCED THE INMATES TO EAT THEIR OWN FECES. "Comrades," if we dare to use this phrase, verify that this is a fact from reality, about which, we repeat, OGPU has the official evidence, and judge for yourself the full extent of effrontery and humiliation in the supervision by those who want to make a career for themselves. [...] We are sure and we hope that in the All-Union Communist Party there are people, as we have been told, who are humane and sympathetic; it is possible, that you might think that it is our imagination, but we swear to you all, by everything that is sacred to us, that this is only one small part of the nightmarish truth, because it makes no sense to make this up. We repeat, and will repeat 100 times, that yes, indeed there are some guilty people, but the majority suffer innocently, as is described above. The word law, according to the law of the GPU concentration camps, does not exist; what does exist is only the autocratic power of petty tyrants, i.e., collaborators, serving time, who have power over life and death. Everything described above is the truth and we, ourselves, who are close to the grave after 3 years in Solovky and Kemi and other sections, are asking you to improve the pathetic, tortured existence of those who are there who languish under the yoke of the OGPU's tyranny, violence, and complete lawlessness.... 
To this we subscribe: G. Zheleznov, Vinogradov, F. Belinskii. 
Dec. 14, 1926 
True copy   
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Christians Arrested by Jewish Bolshviks Are Still Prisoners of Injustice The Sunday Times of London, June 28 1998  
by Mark Franchetti Vorkuta  
 Original Source for This Story Was Found on the Internet, July 2, 1998, at this Link: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/page ... ml?1500530  
Stalin's Forgotten Prisoners... 
THROUGHOUT his tortuous 10 years of hard labour in Stalin's gulag, Pavel Negretov dreamt of the new life that would begin on the day he finished his sentence for anti-communist activities. Still a young man, he imagined himself starting afresh in Moscow, far from the horrors he had endured. That new life never came. More than half a century later, Negretov remains stranded in Vorkuta, in the Arctic Circle, where he was sent to work in barbaric conditions in the coalmines of Russia's far north. Now 75, he has yet to be granted the residence permit he needs to move with his wife to the Russian capital. Negretov is not alone. Hundreds of former opponents of Stalin's dictatorship, including 250 in Vorkuta, have been left to their hard lives in remote regions to which they were exiled in the 1930s and 1940s. Most have struggled ever since to return to their home towns and villages. Thousands have died of old age without being allowed to resettle. "There are queues of former political prisoners waiting to leave Vorkuta," said Yevgenia Khaidarova, of the local branch of Memorial, a human rights organisation that helps victims of Soviet repression. "The scene is the same all over Russia. These people are caught in limbo, living in a terrible vicious circle - they can't resettle without a propiska [residence permit], which they could get only if they had a flat in the city they wanted to go back to." Those dispatched to the gulag had their flats confiscated by the authorities. With their homes, they lost their right to live in the places where they had grown up with their families. If they were affluent, they could buy a privatised flat. Deprived long ago of any opportunity to establish themselves, however, they are poor. If they moved without an official permit, they would have no legal right to work or to receive vital benefits, including healthcare. Like the overwhelming majority of Russians, they depend on the state to provide them with homes. So they wait in the frozen Arctic, hoping forlornly that one day the state will find them a flat somewhere - anywhere - other than Vorkuta. Isolated from the outside world by inhospitable tundra, 100 miles north of the Arctic Circle and more than 1,000 miles from Moscow, Vorkuta is a place where winter lasts for 10 months and the temperature falls regularly to -40C. It is completely dark for weeks on end. Like the other labour camps scattered across the northern wastes and christened the gulag archipelago by Alexander Solzhenitsyn, a camp survivor himself, Vorkuta was uninhabited until geologists found huge coal reserves beneath its frozen earth. Slave labour was the only way to develop the mineral wealth. The first prisoners were sent to Vorkuta in 1931 on a journey that took six months and claimed thousands of lives. They were crammed first into cattle trains, then onto barges along several rivers and completed the last 50 miles on foot. Between 1934 and 1954 2m were sent away to toil in Vorkuta's 80 mines - petty criminals, political opponents of Stalin and the hapless, innocent victims of senseless purges, "guilty" of anything from simply being related to a foreigner to having turned up late for work. "My first year and a half was the hardest," recalled Negretov, who arrived in Vorkuta at the height of winter after being arrested in Ukraine in 1946 for collaborating with an anti-communist group. "I thought I had landed in hell. "There were three shifts of eight hours. We were escorted at gunpoint in the snow from our barracks to the mines. It was always pitch-dark, with freezing temperatures, but the wind was the most terrible thing. I used to wonder why my parents had brought me into this world. I was skin and bones, and covered in ulcers." The inmates slept in pairs to keep warm, using one jacket as a mattress on the floor and the other as a blanket. "We kept our boots under our heads to stop other prisoners from stealing them, and pulled our trousers down over our feet to prevent frostbite," Negretov said. "Every morning an angry corporal would wake us up, shouting. That was the worst time - waking up to another day, exhausted." Every day in Vorkuta, prisoners starved, froze to death, were executed by guards or were killed digging in the mines. Memorial, which was headed by Andrei Sakharov, the dissident nuclear physicist, until his death in 1989, has obtained access to archives in an attempt to calculate the toll. The initial estimate is half a million dead. Today, the graves are marked by numbered, nameless wooden crosses in seven cemeteries that surround a city of 180,000 people built on bones. "I have been here 52 years, and I have dreamt all my life of living in a city like Moscow or St Petersburg," said Negretov. "Our state has no conscience. It has forgotten about us and the Russian people as a whole. We have no democracy, only greed for more power. And who is Boris Yeltsin? A former Communist party boss. Power has not changed hands." Since the advent of glasnost, the Russian government has rehabilitated most former zeks - as gulag inmates were known - formally recognising them as innocent victims of repression and providing them with minimal compensation and the right to a proper pension. But it has done little to help them resettle. Negretov fought until 1995 to be rehabilitated. He was awarded

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## Линдзи

Wow, all those vague psuedo-intellectual articles really convinced me!  I think I'll go start a pogrom in my very own neighborhood!  
Uh, oh, my senator here in Wisconsin is Jewish!  So I guess our capitalist American republic is also an evil Jewish conspiracy! 
Oh, holy hell.  Do you know what just occurred to me?  I'm a Catholic!  My very CHURCH was started by Jewish people!  Well, fuсk me.  I'm just going to have to commit suicide now. 
Goodbye, cruel Jewish world!

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Its pathetic to deny the facts. The fact is that, jews commited genocide against Russia, Ukraine. And should with every right, claim rightfully astronomical payments from Israel and jewish community for the genocide commited from jews to Russia and Ukraine. To begin with, take all possesions from jews in Russia, like Abramovitch.

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## Линдзи

Oh, obviously.  You have me 100% convinced.  Because there were a few Jewish people involved in Bolshevism, all Jews are responsible and ought to pay the former USSR all their money.  And then die. 
Aw, dammit, but Christians carried out genocide against the native peoples of the Americas!  And obviously all Christians living today, no matter what their heritage, even, are responsible for it.  So, I guess we'd better take all their money and kill them, too.  Better make your peace with your God quickly, kiddo.  The Hague is on it's way to your house. 
Also, dumbаss, do you know the definition of "genocide?"  I'm pretty sure there are still a WHOLE FRIKKIN' LOT OF ethnic Russians running around. 
Psycho.

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Idiots cant be convinced about facts. The fact is that the genocide against Russias and Ukraines pravoslavs were commited by mostly jews. Russia and Ukraine has every right to claim astronomical payment from jewish community for this. Only antirussian monsters dont care about this.

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## Линдзи

I don't buy the premise of your argument, but even if it were true and not total bigoted BS, people are not responsible legally nor morally for the crimes of their ancestors.  To say that they are is to delve into complete and utter ridiculousness.  My dad's family is German; am I to try to atone for WWII?  Especially when you throw in the fact that my grandparents and great-grandparents weren't even Nazis?  I'm going with "no" on this one.  My responsibility, as the rest of the world's responsibility, is only to learn from the tragedies of the past and fight not to repeat them.  If your grandfather robbed my grandfather, are you supposed to go to jail for it? 
I realize no amount of REALITY is going to convince you that the crimes of the Soviet Union are not some evil Jewish plot (I suppose it does NO good whatsoever to point out that neither Lenin nor Stalin were Jewish?  Or even that Stalin was a _Christian_ theology student before going into politics?) but I am curious what twist in your mind suggests that Jewish people should be expected to atone for ancestral crimes, but not other ethnic/religious groups.  Why only Jewish people in Russia?  Why not expect all Europeans in the Americas to give up all property to Native Americans, to make up for the systematic exermination of many tribes?  Or all Japanese people living in China to give up all property to the Chinese, to make up for Nanking?   
And once again, not to pick nits, but I don't think you understand the word "genocide."  Genocide is the systematic effort to wipe out a race or ethnic group.  I can come up with no historian who would suggest that the Soviet Union, even at the height of any terror, was attempting to wipe out Russians.  You can make a case for genocide in the case of some of the non-Russian ethnic groups that Stalin dislocated, but certainly not in the case of ethnic Russians.  Genocide is mass murder, but mass murder is not always genocide.  The Communist campaign against the Orthodox church is also not an example of genocide.  It is an example of repression, often using techniques of terror.  An effort to exterminate a religion is not necessarily an effort to exterminate all members of that faith; the idea was to stop people from practicing and propagating the religion, not to kill anyone who had ever crossed him or herself. 
Your argument makes no sense on any level.  I suggest that you consider long and hard the prejudices and lapses in logic that have led you to this conclusion.

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The german history is full of genocide, towards russia and other countries. Many jews promots ustasas genocide towards pravoslav serbs, most germans hate pravoslavs, the satanistic hate towards serbs (and they dont care much for russians either) from germans is amazing, most germans celebrate ustasa (croatian nazis). Many jews wants money for suffering in concentration camps. It is only fair, that jewish community pays astronomicaly for the suffering they have caused Russia, Ukraine and other countries. Why shouldnt indians get payed and a lot of their land given back, it is only fair.

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## carperdiem

Sorry to but in but.... GO ЛИНДЗИ GO! ! ! :P

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The new Tzar, Alexander III, was so infuriated with the Jews that he issued the following statement which is quoted from the Encyclopedia Britannica, page 76, Vol. 2, 1947 edition:  
[quote]  
"For some time the government has given its attention to the Jews and to the* relations the rest of the inhabitants of the empire, with a view of ascertaining the sad condition of the Christian inhabitants brought about by the conduct of the Jews in business matters. During the last 20 years, the Jews have gradually possessed themselves of not only every trade and business in all its branches, but also of a great part of the land by buying or farming it. With few exceptions, they have as a body devoted their attention, not to enriching or benefiting the country, but to defrauding, by their wiles, its inhabitants, and particularly its poor inhabitants ! This conduct of theirs has called forth protests on the part of the people, as manifested in acts of violence. The government, while on the one hand doing its best to put down the disturbances and to deliver the Jews from oppression and slaughter, has also on the other hand, thought it a matter of urgency and justice to adopt stringent measures in order to put an end to the oppression practiced by the Jews on the inhabitants, and to free the country from their malpractices, which were. as is known, the cause of the agitation." 
Quote from "Jewish Communal Register", 1918:  
Title: Schiff Finances Enemies Of Czar  
Kehillah (Jewish Community) of New York City 356 SECOND AVENUE New York City  
"Schiff, Jacob Henry, was born In 1847, at Frankfort on-the- Maine, Germany. He received his education in the schools of Frankfort. In 1866 he came to America, where he settled in New York City. Here, he joined the staff of a banking house. In 11173, he returned to Europe where he made connections with some of the chief German banking horses. Upon returning to the United States, he entered the banking firm of Kuhn, Loeb and Company, New York of which he later became the head. His firm became the financial reconstructors of the Union Pacific Railroad, and since then is strongly interested in American railroad"  
Mr. Schiff's principle of "community of interests among the chief railway combinations led to the formation of the Northern Securities Company, thus suppressing ruinous competition. The firm of Kuhn, Loeb & Co.. floated the large Japanese War Loans of 1904-5, thus making possible the Japanese victory over Russia Mr. Schiff is director of numerous financial companies, among them the Central Trust company. Western Union Telegraph Company, the Wells Fargo Express Company. He has been severer time vice-president of the New York Chamber of Commerce.  
Mr. Schiff has always used his wealth and his influence in the best interests of his people. He financed the enemies of autocratic Russia and used his financial influence to keep Russia from the money market of the United States.  
When last year, Mr. Schiff celebrated his seventieth birthday, all the factions of Jewry in the United States and elsewhere united in paying tribute to him.  
[end quote]

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## JB

Hey Eagle, have you looked under your bed lately?  THEY may be under there waiting to get you!   ::  
Seriously dude, if you are christian I think you need to go spend a lot of time in confession then work on living a life that spreads the love and kindness that Christ preached instead of the BS and hate you're puking up on this forum.

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Jb, pathetic comments aint gonna help the russian people getting paid from the jewish community the money they have every right to claim. Jews have commited genocide towards Russia and Ukraine, and should get paid astronomicaly by the jewish community.

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## Jasper May

If only Mike was back now. Sure, he could be a pain in the arse, but at least he knew how to deal with these kinds of people.  ::  Or couldn't bad manners and VendingMachine come to the rescue here?  ::

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## bad manners

I am not gonna help, but then I am not gonna interfere, either. I do not think that the Jews were the end-all evil for the Russians (the Ukrainians, etc), the Russians have always been pretty keen on wiping off old scores by wiping off old foes, especially when the state goes for an iron hand. After all, this phrase has existed for ages:  "Нам, русским, хлеба не надо: мы друг друга едим и тем сыты бываем." 
On the other hand, I do think that a bit of Jewish bashing is in order. How many Jews were killed by the Germans? And how many Byelorussians? And who is receiving the compensation now? And who were financing Germany in the thirties? And always start that stink about "anti-Semitism" when their dirty deeds get to be scrutinized? While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades?

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## chrisd234

I think that im really scared, ive seen hundreds upon thousands of people spreading this type of information around the internet, and then a thousand more people are better informed. Revolutions start everday because of this. Who ever said pen is mightier than the sword was wrong, it was cutting and pasting articles!!! cutting and pasting is mightier than the sword. all it takes its about 100 typical internet users who see the post and say "What the H@ll??? thats like 20 pages long im not reading that" and then they click away from it and the revoloution has begun!!!! 
MASTER RUSSIAN!!!!!!!!  ::

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Chrisd324, your comments is typicall for ignorant pro/american. The genocide, commited by jews towars Russia and Ukraine is nothing that is written about in (specially) in western media. Its no wonder that the jews together with americans, are the most hated in the world.

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## chrisd234

yes

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## Jasper May

I'm sorry you feel that way, bad manners. In fact, I would've thought an educated person such as yourself wouldn't partake in primitive 'Jews-bashing'. Could you tel me more about the genocide in Belarus? AFAIK, the Germans only exterminated the _jews_ in Belarus.

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## chrisd234

well put, very well said! now if you dont mind i'm going back to answering all statements with yes or no.  
No

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## Линдзи

Ah, yes, bad manners.   Clearly the solution here is Jew-bashing.  Jew-bashing has been hugely sucessful historically in solving countries' problems.  I mean, all that killing of Jewish people during the Black Plague, it cleared the disease right up!  And the German concentration camps totally solved all of Germany's economic problems!  And Russia's pogroms...oh, _wait_, I just remembered.  Actually, it didn't solve anything, it just led to a bunch of asshоles killing a bunch of innocent Jews.  My mistake! 
And we can just jump over the whole part of the debate where you and Eagle accuse me of being a crazy American Zionism-supporter, etc., because I do think that a few Jewish leaders have done plenty of nasty stuff, historically and in the present.  But _here's the thing_ - I'm not a *bigoted lunatic*, so I'm not about to say that all Jews are responsible for the actions of, say, Sharon.  Or Trotsky.  (I don't even know if Trotsky was Jewish, honestly, and I don't care, but Eagle seems to be basing a huge part of his accusations on it.) The suggestion that an entire ethnic group should be held responsible for the actions of a few of its members is ludicrous.  I'm of Western European Catholic descent, but I'm not to blame for what my ancestors did on the Crusades.  You're a Russian, bad manners, but you shouldn't be blamed for Stalin's relocation of the Crimean Tatars.  So why in the *hеll* are you people suggesting that all Jews share some collective guilt? 
(Not to mention that I _still_ don't understand why Eagle thinks the Russian Revolution was a Jewish plot.  I'm sorry, Eagle...your conspiracy theory makes no sense.) 
There are bad Jewish people! 
There are also bad people of *every single other ethnic, social, religious and racial group on the entire planet!* 
Clearly, the only way of ending human evil is true genocide, wiping out the entire human race in one fell swoop.  But since that's not an option,  stop blaming entire groups of people for what individual members of those groups did.  *It's monumentally stupid* to do so. 
Jesus.

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## chrisd234

"Jesus" NO "JESUS FREAKIN CHRIST" YES

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## Линдзи

Hee, Chris.  Sometime I'll explain my Theory of Blasphemy, but I suspect that this is neither the time nor the place for such a treatise.

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## chrisd234

I apologize if i offended you. seriously, not sarcastically. I guess i should kinda keep my smart comments to myself when it concerns such matters. Hope you dont you hate me now! thanks for pointing that out 
Chris
YES

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## Линдзи

Offended me?  Judas on a pogo stick, NO.  I _like_ blasphemy.  I was serious when I said I'd post my treatise on it some time. 
You = not offensive 
Racist hatemongering = offensive 
Hope that clears my position up   ::

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## chrisd234

haha! very much so.  great minds think alike dont they!!!!

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## bad manners

Линдзи, I don't know why you are ascribing me what I have never said. In particular, I have not called you any name nor, indeed, have I addressed you in this thread so far. 
The word "bashing" that I used, which was perhaps slightly too energetic, was used figuratively. I actually meant "critique". I am sick of hearing that they poor Jews have suffered more than any other people. 
Now, I suggest that you get your facts straight before you continue. Such as me and Stalin being Russian. Grossly incorrect. 
That said, I totally agree that saying that an entire ethnicity is guilty of something is but idiotic, and that the theory that the Russian Revolution (which one?) was a Jewish plot, while does have a touch of sympathetic madness, fails to be anything but madness. 
Jasper, Byelorussia lost one quarter to one third of its population, and Ukraine somewhat less. Overall, the USSR lost 27 million in that war, of which no more than 9 million were battle losses. The rest is the result of the German policy in the occupied territories. The Holocaust is estimated to have killed 6 million Jews. Even if we assume that they all were Soviet Jews, there are still 13 million killed in the USSR.

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## Линдзи

Ah, when I said "Russian" regarding Stalin I meant "Pоссиянин."  Translation faux pas.  In my mind citizenship is dominant over ethnicity when defining one's nationality, but as was established in the "Why do you look so old" thread, that is clearly not the case for all of us here. 
And it occurs to me that I have no idea where you are from.  So basically, I recant this one sentence:     

> You're a Russian, bad manners, but you shouldn't be blamed for Stalin's relocation of the Crimean Tatars.

 but the intention behind it remains, and it seems a bit petty to pick that out as the major flaw in my argument.   

> The word "bashing" that I used, which was perhaps slightly too energetic, was used figuratively. I actually meant "critique". I am sick of hearing that they poor Jews have suffered more than any other people.

 Fine, you're sick of hearing about it.  But that's not the issue in this thread; the issue is whether Jews bear all guilt for the USSR's crimes against humanity.  To which I can easily reply, "Durrr, no."  That you want take this as an opportunity to go ahead and "bash" (figuratively, of course, how could anyone _not_ infer that you actually meant "critique"?  Stupid us) strikes me as a bit creepy, honestly.  A real critique is based on concrete fact and well-constructed logic, not a nutter's ravings. 
And no, I don't find his madness sympathetic at all.

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## bad manners

> but the intention behind it remains, and it seems a bit petty to pick that out as the major flaw in my argument.

 Did I not say that I fully agree with your argument?   

> Fine, you're sick of hearing about it.  But that's not the issue in this thread; the issue is whether Jews bear all guilt for the USSR's crimes against humanity.

 And I said quite clearly in the very first message of mine in this thread that I do not think the Jews (as a whole) guilty of anything in the USSR. Why don't you try and read what I write for a change?   

> That you want take this as an opportunity to go ahead and "bash" (figuratively, of course, how could anyone _not_ infer that you actually meant "critique"?  Stupid us) strikes me as a bit creepy, honestly.  A real critique is based on concrete fact and well-constructed logic, not a nutter's ravings.

 _I_ did not want to go ahead and bash anyone. Read what I write, for fuck's sake!

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## drew881

> . 
>  Overall, the USSR lost 27 million in that war, of which no more than 9 million were battle losses. The rest is the result of the German policy in the occupied territories. The Holocaust is estimated to have killed 6 million Jews. Even if we assume that they all were Soviet Jews, there are still 13 million killed in the USSR.

 Yes, Germans killed many more Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians than Jews.  However, it was not done in the systematic force that the Nazis setup in Poland to kill jews.  Specifically, gassing, shooting and burying jews in mass graves was a system that was well studied, adjusted, and perfected, so that the Nazis could immediately kill jews in the most efficient way.  As Germany occupied territory in RUssia and further east, yes there were labor camps set up (I have been to one in Latvia which the USSR set up a memorial for), but nothing on the scale of the death camps that were used in Poland to exterminate Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and other races.

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## Линдзи

> On the other hand, I do think that a bit of Jewish bashing is in order.

  

> _I_ did not want to go ahead and bash anyone. Read what I write, for @@@@'s sake!

 Wow, I apologize DEEPLY (and sarcastically) for my lack of reading comprehension.  Whatever, I'm done with this thread.  Eagle, you are deluded about this matter, and bad manners, you are clearly unwilling to take ownership of your own words.  Listening to hatemongers raises my blood pressure far too much, and I'd prefer to live a long healthy life. 
Enjoy your bigotry.

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## VendingMachine

> You're a Russian, bad manners, but you shouldn't be blamed for Stalin's relocation of the Crimean Tatars.

 Actually, Stalin was Georgian - kind of nullifies your argument - not that you would ever agree with this, especially in the light of a certain recent thread where you lot have flatly refused to see the difference between the "Russians" and the Russians... 
P.S. I don't even expect you to answer this, so save your breath.

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## VendingMachine

> Originally Posted by bad manners  . Overall, the USSR lost 27 million in that war, of which no more than 9 million were battle losses. The rest is the result of the German policy in the occupied territories. The Holocaust is estimated to have killed 6 million Jews. Even if we assume that they all were Soviet Jews, there are still 13 million killed in the USSR.   Yes, Germans killed many more Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians than Jews.  However, it was not done in the systematic force that the Nazis setup in Poland to kill jews.  Specifically, gassing, shooting and burying jews in mass graves was a system that was well studied, adjusted, and perfected, so that the Nazis could immediately kill jews in the most efficient way.  As Germany occupied territory in RUssia and further east, yes there were labor camps set up (I have been to one in Latvia which the USSR set up a memorial for), but nothing on the scale of the death camps that were used in Poland to exterminate Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and other races.

 Indeed, the Germans killed 6 million in a systematic way and 13 million asystematically. Drew, get your head examined.

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## Jasper May

> Actually, Stalin was Georgian - kind of nullifies your argument

 It doesn't. It was an example. The intent of that example was clear, so it still remains an argument. If she had either said "You're Austrian, bad manners (which he isn't, I know)" or "you're German, bad manners, but you shouldn't be blamed for Hitler's deeds", the point would have been made. Nitpicking is far too easy.

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## VendingMachine

> Actually, Stalin was Georgian - kind of nullifies your argument
> 			
> 		  It doesn't. It was an example. The intent of that example was clear, so it still remains an argument. If she had either said "You're Austrian, bad manners (which he isn't, I know)" or "you're German, bad manners, but you shouldn't be blamed for Hitler's deeds", the point would have been made. Nitpicking is far too easy.

 Now, morons come in packs... Опять двадцатьпять! Georgian != Russian. Russian != Georgian. Warum versta je dat niet? It's like saying "bad manners, we know you're Japanese, but you shouldn't be blamed for Pinochet's deeds". Маразм крепчал, и танки наши быстры...

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## bad manners

I still do not understand why I was in that argument in the first place, I denounced the theory of "national guilt" in my first message. That went unnoticed and now I am a firmly established hatemonger only because I thought a bit of fairness would not hurt. I can but say that the Zionist propaganda works brilliantly.

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## Jasper May

Waarom begrijp ik dat niet? Maybe you think Russian=Georgian and viceversa, but apparently VendingMachine doesn't. But never mind.

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## drew881

> killed 6 million in a systematic way and 13 million asystematically. Drew, get your head examined.

 How can you deny this?  Did the nazis set up a vast concentration and death camp system across the occupied territories of the Soviet Union?  They set up some camps, but it was nothing like the situation in poland.  The warsaw ghetto for example, auschwitz, etc...Sure the Nazis killed many Russians when they entered villages, probably lining them up and shooting them, and there were the insertion troops but the extermination of jews was on another level.  The nazis did this as well in territories before entering the Soviet Union, but it wasnt efficient enough, thus evolving to death camps, and the switch from shooting/hanging to gassing.  Im not saying that the murder of Russians was asystematic, but that it wasnt nearly as planned out.

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## bad manners

I can only suggest what VendingMachine has already suggested, drew881. Have you ever heard of railroads? Those that were transporting the citizens of the USSR out of the country to Germany where they worked to death? In those same death camps and certain other places? Have you ever heard of another great German invention, the mobile gas chamber? Have you ever heard about the German practice of gathering the population of a village in a barn, and setting the barn on fire? 
And what is so special about a system if another one (the less systematic one, according to you) is far more frightening?

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## begemot

Maybe people overlook how effective Hitler was in killing Russians because Stalin was so much better at it?

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## VendingMachine

Hey, I got it - if you want to become a dictator, make sure you kill your millions without planning it out beforehand, wantom killing on the spot, way to go! You won't be seen as such a bad guy in the end!

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## JJ

> Maybe people overlook how effective Hitler was in killing Russians because Stalin was so much better at it?

 This is a good example of brainwashing. The Stalin's guilt is exaggerated. Let's count. Hitler killed 30 mln russians let's imagine that Stalin equals Hitler, then Stalin killed 30 mln russians too. So, they both killed 60 millions, it is about a 1/2 of USSR in that times. Guys tell me how it could be that in less than 30 years population of USSR increased  to 280 million people? Are we, russians, faster than rabbits?  :: 
BTW, the old generation remember 3,5 million germans who were captives and worked in every city, but nobody told me about millions Stalin's prisoners.

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## Jasper May

Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians? Can't believe that for one moment. Not that I'm an apologist, but that's far too much.

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## begemot

I didn't say Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler, I said he was more effective at it.   
I wonder where you guys think all this brainwashing takes place.  In school so much attention was focused on Hitler's crimes that those of Stalin barely got a footnote.  Since the US was allied with Stalin, no one was eager to say he was as bad as Hitler. And those on the political Left in Western Europe and the US bent over backward to make excuses for that regime. Every American kid knows what Hitler was and what he did, I'd be embarrassed to find out how many even know who Stalin was. 
According to some of the "ideas" floated in this forum, the Jews control the Western media and are brainwashing Americans against Stalin (for what purpose?), but wait, Bolshevism itself was a Jewish attack against Christians!  So I guess the Jews didn't get their act together on this one.... 
It boggles my mind why any Russian would want to defend Stalin.  Forced collectivization, politically induced famine, resettlement of ethnicities, the purges, the gulag, the decapitation of the Red Army before WWII, his refusal to believe that Hitler would attack or prepare adequately for it. ...And even after the bravery and sacrifice of the Russian army and people bailed him out, how did he repay returning Soviet soldiers?? Russia won WWII in spite of Stalin, not because of him. We all know what even Lenin thought of him. 
All this is well-documented for anyone who cares to know. I guess the books of Conquest, Radzinsky, Getty, etc. are all just brain-washing Jewish propaganda??

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## JJ

> Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians? Can't believe that for one moment. Not that I'm an apologist, but that's far too much.

 ".....В ходе исследований этим коллективом, состоящим из представителей Госкомстата СССР, Академии наук СССР, Министерства обороны. Главного архивного управления при Совете Министров СССР, Советского комитета ветеранов войны. Союза обществ Красного Креста и Красного Полумесяца, были уточнены категории людских потерь, произведена оценка полноты данных о населении страны в 30–40–е годы, внесены потери в расчеты количества населения на начало и на конец Великой Отечественной войны, выверены по архивным источникам имевшиеся оценки отдельных потерь.  
В результате проделанной работы людские потери Советского Союза во время Великой Отечественной войны, высчитанные методом демографического баланса, были оценены в *27 млн. человек*, в том числе потери военнослужащих Вооруженных Сил — *8 700 тыс. человек*. " Look here
After this all BS about Holocost looks like an egregious lie. And they make money on it.

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## Alexander

> Originally Posted by Jasper May  Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians? Can't believe that for one moment. Not that I'm an apologist, but that's far too much.   ".....В ходе исследований этим коллективом, состоящим из представителей Госкомстата СССР, Академии наук СССР, Министерства обороны. Главного архивного управления при Совете Министров СССР, Советского комитета ветеранов войны. Союза обществ Красного Креста и Красного Полумесяца, были уточнены категории людских потерь, произведена оценка полноты данных о населении страны в 30–40–е годы, внесены потери в расчеты количества населения на начало и на конец Великой Отечественной войны, выверены по архивным источникам имевшиеся оценки отдельных потерь.  
> В результате проделанной работы людские потери Советского Союза во время Великой Отечественной войны, высчитанные методом демографического баланса, были оценены в *27 млн. человек*, в том числе потери военнослужащих Вооруженных Сил — *8 700 тыс. человек*. " Look here
> After this all BS about Holocost looks like an egregious lie. And they make money on it.

 Интересно, здесь есть кто-нибудь из русских (украинцев, белорусов, казахов, азербайджанцев...) у кого дед на на войне не погиб? Мои - оба. Один под Москвой, другой - под Курском.

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## bad manners

Since my messages are being deleted in this thread without leaving a trace, I am not going to participate in this discussion. I would still suggest that the wise guys like begemot read books that derive their data from verifiable sources rather than baloney falsifications.

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## joysof

> After this all BS about Holocost looks like an egregious lie. And they make money on it.

 What does this mean? Who is 'they' and what is the 'BS'?

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## Jasper May

I can take a lot, but when people start denying the holocaust, I'm off. I'm no Jew, but I know Jews who've lost their (grand)parents in Auschwitz, and you're not going to tell me that all of them are lying (and that it's all some big world-wide Jewish conspiracy). Incidentally, that's another thing that pisses me off, conspirationalists. 
Have a good discussion.

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## begemot

> suggest that the wise guys like begemot read books that derive their data from verifiable sources rather than baloney falsifications.

 What would recommend, BM, the Краткий Курс? 
I saw and enjoyed your rant before it was deleted. If you take the time to abuse me again, could you please do it in Russian? I'm trying to learn.

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## bad manners

> What would recommend, BM, the Краткий Курс?

 That would be a huge step forward for you. Anything is a step forward compared to your rectal literature.

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## Gollandski Yozh

OK, I just returned to this forum just to find anti-Semitism! WTF is wrong here?! Where are the mods to close these kind of threads down and BAN the stupid f*cks who post such BS? Racism sucks! Racism has no place at masterrussian IMO. I am sorry to see the mods don't seem to agree.

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## Pravit

There are no mods as of now besides MasterAdmin, who ultimately gets to decide what is proper content for his site anyway. However, please do note that the forum is undergoing a maintenance and most posts made during this maintenance will be deleted. After the maintenance is done, I think it's safe to say that all the recent flamewars that have been popping up will be regulated a bit more. What is with all the flamewars going on lately, anyway?

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## Exalangumna

Hey, without Russian Jews, we wouldn't have Fiddler On the Roof:P

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## JJ

> Интересно, здесь есть кто-нибудь из русских (украинцев, белорусов, казахов, азербайджанцев...) у кого дед на на войне не погиб? Мои - оба. Один под Москвой, другой - под Курском.

 My grandma lost 2 brothers in that war. Her third brother had dead some years after the war becouse of his wounds.

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## JJ

> What does this mean? Who is 'they' and what is the 'BS'?

 BS mean bullsh#t. "They" means "jews".

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## joysof

> Originally Posted by joysof  What does this mean? Who is 'they' and what is the 'BS'?   BS mean bullsh#t. "They" means "jews".

 Really? Which Jews? Jerry Seinfeld, Woody Allen and the Weinsteins? Einstein, perhaps, or Disraeli? Or me? I don't think I've ever made any money whatsoever out of the Holocaust. Lost two family members though. Perhaps the cheque's in the post. 
I am becoming increasingly fed up of scattergun anti-Semitism on this forum. It's even more galling when it comes from someone who is here regularly: I can dismiss the wandering nuts from my mind much more swiftly than I can you.

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## bad manners

> I am becoming increasingly fed up of scattergun anti-Semitism on this forum. It's even more galling when it comes from someone who is here regularly: I can dismiss the wandering nuts from my mind much more swiftly than I can you.

 joysof, I do not think there is real anti-Semitism here. Nobody is denying the Holocaust. What is being told is that the Holocaust, while significant in itself, is smaller in the scale than the "asystemic extermination" the Nazis were practicing in the USSR. What is being told also is that the Jews have been able to use the fact (the fact, which is not disputed!) of Holocaust very favourably _politically_, unlike the Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians/etc, and there is a conflict between these two facts.

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## joysof

> joysof, I do not think there is real anti-Semitism here.

 I hope you're right. Taken together, however, I find JJ's posts here anti-Semitic in sentiment.

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## JJ

> I find JJ's posts here anti-Semitic in sentiment.

 You didn't get right what i said. I just want to say that becouse of the Holocaust "advertising" everybody forget 27 mln (see what Jasper wrote:"Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians?") russians, ukrainians, belorussians, tatars, jews, etc. from the USSR. And after all u call me as "anti-Semit". Moreover I don't feel hatred against germans and jews in spite of the fact that Adolf Shekelgruber (Hitler) killed 3 of my relatives and he was a jew.

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## joysof

> Originally Posted by joysof   I find JJ's posts here anti-Semitic in sentiment.   You didn't get right what i said.

 I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).   

> Moreover I don't feel hatred against germans and jews in spite of the fact that Adolf Shekelgruber (Hitler) killed 3 of my relatives and he was a jew.

 Not true. Urban myth. Had some - not much - Jewish ancestry.   

> I just want to say that becouse of the Holocaust "advertising" everybody forget 27 mln (see what Jasper wrote:"Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians?") russians, ukrainians, belorussians, tatars, jews, etc. from the USSR.

 This is the bit I'd like you to explain. Which ''advertising'' and by whom?

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## Линдзи

Q:  Was Hitler part Jewish?
A: (short answer) Maybe, and what difference does it make? 
If my family gets killed by our neighbor in a fit of rage over surveyers boundries, and your family gets killed by a serial killer who offed 5 other families, we have both suffered essentially the same loss.  Your pain does not diminish mine or vice versa. 
It is not the Jewish people's fault the losses in the Soviet Union are not as publicized as the Holocaust.  If you want to blame someone blame the Soviet leadership that notoriously fudged figures.  Or the Allies who didn't take heed of Soviet suffering or assign the USSR the same level of heroism they did more Western nations.  Anyway, Jewish people died right along side ethnic Russians, Bielorussians, Tatars, и.т.д. in the USSR.   
I don't see how it is possible to blame Holocaust historians and activists for wanting the world to know about what happened in the concentration camps during WWII; after all, many of you here are saying that you wish your own suffering was as notorious.  So instead of getting into a who-suffered-more contest, perhaps it would be better to simply educate people about the USSR's travails?  One suffering does not cancel out or diminish the other; it is possible to feel sympathy and horror at more than one event.  Historians often (although not often enough, honestly) point out that the activities Nanking rival the worsts atrocities of the Nazis, but they do not say "therefore we should ignore the concentration camps in Europe and focus only on Nanking," they say "we should study Nanking _in addition_ to the events in Europe."

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## bad manners

> If you want to blame someone blame the Soviet leadership that notoriously fudged figures.

 The USSR always insisted on 20 million total losses. While less than the actual 27, it is still huge. And that figure was continually circulated in Soviet publications since fifties. So maybe we should blame the "free democratic" press of the USSR’s Cold War enemies, who did everything to diminish the role played by the USSR in WWII.   

> Or the Allies who didn't take heed of Soviet suffering

 Head on.   

> I don't see how it is possible to blame Holocaust historians and activists for wanting the world to know about what happened in the concentration camps during WWII;

 Because they are distorting the truth. Those same camps killed a lot more Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians than Jews, yet those activists almost never mention the fact, which leads many to believe that the camps was created solely for the Jews and nobody but the Jews.    

> So instead of getting into a who-suffered-more contest, perhaps it would be better to simply educate people about the USSR's travails?

 Explain how. Like buy a couple of pages in the Life magazine? The only way the USA (let's just take one country) may be educated about that is by making the topic mandatory in the school program, at educational channels, and so on. That needs a go by the state officials, not just wishful thinking at some internet forum unheard of in the USA.

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## JJ

> I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).

 You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".   

> Not true. Urban myth. Had some - not much - Jewish ancestry.

 I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.   

> This is the bit I'd like you to explain. Which ''advertising'' and by whom?

 Ok, try to do this:
go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising? Don't forget that USSR lost 27 million people and it mentions almost 30 times rarely than Holocaust. The Holocaust victims mention more often than all victims that awful war.
I don't know to whom it is profitable but the facts....

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## Линдзи

type in "world war two victims" and you get  2,950,000 results
type in "soviet world war two victims" and you get 600,000  results
type in "i smell like fish" and you get 1,170,000  results 
I don't disagree that the Holocaust gets a lot of press, but I don't know anyone who doesn't realize that others perished right along side the Jews in the camps.  And while I agree that Soviet suffering may well be underreported, I'm not sure an internet search is the best way of making your point, unless your point is that hott naked asian grrrls are sexxxy in pr0n.  Search words can be manipulated to show any results.

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## joysof

> Originally Posted by joysof  I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).   You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".

 It was hard to construct any sort of 'argument' when all you had done to that point was toss in a few gnomic hints about 'Jews' and 'Holocaust BS'. Thank you for the explanation.   

> Ok, try to do this: 
> go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com 
> type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results 
> then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results 
> then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results. 
> So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising?

 This is tantamount to saying that your local hospital ‘advertises’ coronary heart disease ('Look at all those leaflets...'). The Holocaust happened - you’re with me on this one, right? -  and is worth writing about, as, needless to say, is what happened in the Soviet Union. Fashions come and go in the study of history (who would have thought thirty years ago, for example, that people would be so obsessed de nos jours with the minutiae of their ancestors’ daily lives?); to put this down to of any sort of concerted ‘Jewish effort’ is ridiculous and I would hope that you’re not trying to do so. 
Besides, I've read several very good books about Soviet casualties in WWII. Not sure the notion that there's a deficiency in this department holds water.   

> I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.

 Thames Television? Esteemed Purveyor of trash TV to the masses? There are better sources, no?

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## Mihkkal

Well, I was planning to write something long about this - but then I realized I can _mostly_ just say "Go Lindzi!". 
I see the logic of states paying money to victims of their own earlier misdoings - like the USA giving compensation to the Native Americans - but if _individuals_ were to carry the guilt of their forefathers/foremothers, what should f.ex. a German/Jew or any kind of Metis do? Should we sue ourselves?  
There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It _is_ kind of annoying (not to say _unfair_) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism". 
For one thing, this is proposterous because Arabs are semittes too.
And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet.  PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel. 
Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)? It's true, isn't it? Given, it is also true that fundamentalist Protestants might have even more responsibility for the military/economical support to Israel - but when people point this out, they are never called anti-christian. 
I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.  
Regarding the WWII thing, it _is_ true that the massacres of gypsies, soviet-citizens and other groups are not dealt with enough when we learn about the Holocaust. I do, however, not think that this is a part of any Global Jewish Conspiracy - it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...

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## Mihkkal

> it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...

 I did of course mean: Soviet-citizens, GYPSIES and homosexuals...

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## joysof

> There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It _is_ kind of annoying (not to say _unfair_) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism".

 Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel? I brought up anti-Semitism in response to comments about 'Holocaust BS'.   

> And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.

 Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?   

> Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)?

 Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?   

> I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.

 Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

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## VendingMachine

> Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

  

> Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

  

> Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

  

> Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

 As the old joke goes, товарисчи, наши враги говорят, что я читаю свои речи по пластинке...по пластинке...по пластинке...

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## Mihkkal

*joysof wrote*  

> Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?

 *bad manners wrote*  

> And always start that stink about "anti-Semitism" when their dirty deeds get to be scrutinized? While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades?

 I think this was a reference to Israel. I can't really see what else it could be refering to - as far as I know, the Jewish republic of Yevrenia has never led racist/segregationalist policies, and as far as I know there aren't any other sovereign/autonomous Jewish lands than these two. 
Even so: This thread is about anti-semitism, and that's what people get accused of every time they criticize Israel and/or the Jewish neocons in the USA.  
I agree that it would be anti-semittic if one said Israel and the Jewish neocons are behaving badly _because_ they are Jewish - however, most critics are simply saying that they're behaving badly. So I can, in a way, agree with some of what bad manners is saying here. 
However, I don't think that one shouldn't lump all Jews into one "bag" and give them the blame for everything Israel does - and I think bad manners is in danger of doing just that, when he/she makes "they" in one sentance mean "jews in general" while in the next it clearly means "Israel"/"the Israeli government(s)".

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## bad manners

> However, I don't think that one shouldn't lump all Jews into one "bag" and give them the blame for everything Israel does - and I think bad manners is in danger of doing just that, when he/she makes "they" in one sentance mean "jews in general" while in the next it clearly means "Israel"/"the Israeli government(s)".

 Your point is well taken. However, it has become a custom to identify "Russians" with "Russia" (even if they live in the US), and whenever a statement about some bad things in Russia is made, this is immediately attributed to all the Russians. So it is only fair to treat the Jews in the same way. I understand that it goes against the western tradition of double standards towards Russia, but this thread _is_ about double standards.

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## drew881

Israel and Israelis (not jews) 
Russia and Russians  
not Russia and Eastern Orthodox christians.  That would be your comparison.  You are taking a country and labeling a whole people of a religion,  Not a good comparison, and there is your flaw.  Now of course most of Israel is jewish, but you are still making assumptions.  Your logic of saying if people identify Russians with Russia does not hold up.  Thats simply an excuse you are making for generalizing facts about jews.

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## bad manners

[quote=[url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jew[/url]] 
2 entries found for Jew.
To select an entry, click on it. 
  Jew
  Wandering Jew    
Main Entry: Jew 
Pronunciation: 'j

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## joysof

[quote=bad manners][quote="[url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jew[/url]":2mqvu6g8] 
2 entries found for Jew.
To select an entry, click on it. 
  Jew
  Wandering Jew    
Main Entry: Jew 
Pronunciation: 'j

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## joysof

> Even so: This thread is about anti-semitism, and that's what people get accused of every time they criticize Israel and/or the Jewish neocons in the USA.

 Most of the prominent members of the American neo-conservative faction are Christian fundamentalists. Now _there's_ a dangerous bunch.

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## bad manners

> I think you're being deliberately provocative now. I, like most Jews, only qualify under #3. I am no more an Israelite than you are a Spartan. I presume the caps in #1 are yours? Needs to be made clear.

 No. Please consult the original URL. This article means no more than the word in question is as fuzzy as "Russian", and the political tradition of identifying the Jews with Israel exists independently of any statements of mine or yours or whoever.   

> This 'only fair' nonsense doesn't hold up, bad manners; twice you've used it now in separate threads and its only purpose is obfuscation. Something about two wrongs and a right springs to mind as an immediate refutation, but then you know that already.

 As I have just indicated, this identification exists regardless of my views. However, as you should already know, I strive for accuracy, and I am willing to correct my statement so as to avoid any incidental allusions: "While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades _within their national state since the very moment they got a free hand there_?"

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## Frances

I'm having a hard time following this thread so I won't pretend to try and sort anything out, but I just thought I would throw two cents in for whatever it's worth. 
It appears that there may be some misunderstanding as to the term "Israelite" vs. "Israeli".  "Israelite" is the ancient name for the Jewish race.  The term "Jew" has replaced this term in the modern vocabulary.  Those who are currently considered "Israelis" are citizens of Israel and may or may not be of Jewish lineage. 
Anyway, If there is any confusion as to these terms I hope this helps clear it up. 
Frances

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## joysof

> I'm having a hard time following this thread so I won't pretend to try and sort anything out, but I just thought I would throw two cents in for whatever it's worth. 
> It appears that there may be some misunderstanding as to the term "Israelite" vs. "Israeli".  "Israelite" is the ancient name for the Jewish race.  The term "Jew" has replaced this term in the modern vocabulary.  Those who are currently considered "Israelis" are citizens of Israel and may or may not be of Jewish lineage. 
> Anyway, If there is any confusion as to these terms I hope this helps clear it up. 
> Frances

 Thanks, Frances. I'll pass that on to my parents' rabbi.

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## joysof

> Originally Posted by joysof  I think you're being deliberately provocative now. I, like most Jews, only qualify under #3. I am no more an Israelite than you are a Spartan.   No. Please consult the original URL. This article means no more than the word in question is as fuzzy as "Russian", and the political tradition of identifying the Jews with Israel exists independently of any statements of mine or yours or whoever.

 If it exists, it exists erroneously. By all means identify Israel with Judaism, but not vice versa.   

> No. Please consult the original URL.

 Did. Mistake mine.   

> As I have just indicated, this identification exists regardless of my views. However, as you should already know, I strive for accuracy, and I am willing to correct my statement so as to avoid any incidental allusions: "While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades within their national state since the very moment they got a free hand there?"

 Would now be a good time to admit freely that Zionism is as dangerous for the world at large as Islamic fundamentalism? No? Ok.

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## bad manners

I do not even think that Z-thing exists. Do not put words in my mouth, please. All I ever wanted to say is that there are grounds for criticism, and that criticism should not be labeled "anti-Semitism". No more, but no less.

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## Jasper May

You know, I think I'm actually agreeing with bad manners. Jews aren't devils, but they aren't saints either. Western White people ditto. Black people ditto. It really irritates me when black people think they're being discriminated against every time they're accused of something. Never mind whether they're guilty or not, they're discriminated against. So they sue. And they win, somehow. Probably because no white person wants to be branded a racist.
Some goes for jews. As I said, there are a lot of good, nice jews and black people, but in the same ratio to bad ones as white people. 
Jesus, this sounds childish. But you get my point.

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## joysof

> You know, I think I'm actually agreeing with bad manners. Jews aren't devils, but they aren't saints either. Western White people ditto. Black people ditto. It really irritates me when black people think they're being discriminated against every time they're accused of something. Never mind whether they're guilty or not, they're discriminated against. So they sue. And they win, somehow. Probably because no white person wants to be branded a racist.
> Some goes for jews. As I said, there are a lot of good, nice jews and black people, but in the same ratio to bad ones as white people.

 All of which goes without saying. I would only add that it's very easy *not* to have a chip on your shoulder about discrimination when you're a white male of good Christian stock. A history of persecution doesn't, of course, justify a persecution complex, but surely it makes it easy to understand?

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## joysof

> I do not even think that Z-thing exists. Do not put words in my mouth, please. All I ever wanted to say is that there are grounds for criticism, and that criticism should not be labeled "anti-Semitism". No more, but no less.

 Who's putting words in your mouth? Oy gavult, we're largely of one voice here, you and I. That Israeli policy in all its forms has a Zionist bent is difficult to deny, though. Criticism of Sharon and every single one of his predecessors is justified, necessary and is, I quite agree, not fit to be labelled anti-Semitic. Suggestions that the Holocaust was to any extent the figment of a grasping imagination is a different mater entirely. 
Anyway, this - you'll be pleased to note - is my last word on the subject.

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## Jasper May

> a white male of good Christian stock.

 Who says I am? I am  ::  though, and I agree. I don't have any comment to make regarding this, but I think the maximum timelimit within which compensation (of any kind) can be demanded should be set at ~50 years. Just a thought.

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## mike

Points: 
I will not comment on all of the ridiculousness of Eagle's original statements.  I have seen this kind of idiotic garbage on Pravda's forums many times and it is what made me decide to never bother posting there thirty seconds after I registered.  It suffices to say that the early socialist movements that Marx drew upon when formulating Communism were all Christian (St-Simon, Fourier, et al).  It also suffices to say that the first Christian church itself advocated selling one's property and living communally with each other.  Where did Marx get the phrase "to each according to his need?"  From the book of Acts in the New Testament itself!  I quote from the King James Version (Acts Chapter 4, Verses 34-35): "Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, [a]nd laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."  This Jewish conspiracy even seems to go back to those damned evil apostles!  But wait, it gets worse.  This conspiracy runs to the very top, it is so foul and corrupt.  Some of its propaganda has the audacity to soil our good Christian texts with terrible lines like (this is from Luke Chapter 6, Verse 30): "Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again." Here again we see more of this kind of leftist nonsense in verses 34-35: "And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil."  You are probably thinking, what kind of crazy bullshit is this?  If bankers did this it would mean the end of their existence.  Sadly, I'm afraid, it just keeps going on like this.  "Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."  And on (Luke Chapter 18, verse 22): "Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me."  A couple verses down: "For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." 
Even God himself seems to be some kind of a secret member of the evil empire that is conspiring to consume us all.  He says in Isaiah Chapter 3, Verses 14 and 15: "The Lord will enter into judgment with the ancients of his people, and the princes thereof: for ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil of the poor is in your houses. What mean ye that ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor? saith the Lord God of hosts."  In Ezekiel Chapter 18, Verses 8-9 the rotten bastard says: "He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, [h]ath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God."  What the fuck?  Without usury capitalism could not exist.  It would be some sort of Benjamin Tucker pseudocommunist individualist evil bad place.  Fuck you, God.  You're an evil Jew conspirator like all the rest. 
To conclude, before I never speak to Eagle again, it is true that a lot of Jews are prone to the ideas of socialism and communism.  This has more to do with often coming from communal kibbutzim backgrounds, as well as being among the few people of the 19th century who could actually read and write.  This same argument, which is completely ridiculous and irrelevant, is often lodged against the upper classes of Russia and Europe.  Somehow, it is said, their wealthy backgrounds make their philosophies on the poor irrelevant.  This argument may hold water *now* with the creation of public schools, but back then there was not a universal literacy rate and it is quite understandable that nobody else would be capable of formulating a complex socioeconomic theory based on exhaustive historical analyses of class conflict when they are busy working in a shoe factory 14 hours a day since the age of 6.  That kind of a lifestyle makes it sort of hard to work in a French philosophy class or two at the local university (which they would probably never see unless they are cleaning the shit out of the water closets or something).  Considering the Jews did quite well for themselves in Europe (save Lutheran Germany) financially in the 19th century, it is not surprising to see that these two backgrounds (educated and Jewish) would overlap.  It is also not surprising that when these Jews immigrated to the United States and were forced to take up manual labor jobs, they did not immediately forget everything they had learned and were not as complacent with their positions (not that non-Jews were not constantly revolting against their bosses since the dawn of civilization:  Wat Tyler, the Molly McGuires, the French Revolution, and on and on ad infinitum).  If you want to blame socialism and communism on anything, try blaming it on just about every primitive and tribal society in the world, every medieval city and village in Europe prior to the rise of feudalism, and the harsh realities of capitalism.  Or was Mao Zedong's birthname Mao Bernstein-Zedong?  Che Guevarastein?  Ho Chi Minhdelbaum? 
***** 
The Russians captured by the Nazis suffered a terrible fate.  The Germans practically ignored the Geneva Convention entirely when it came to treatment of Soviet POWs because of the shrinking of the Eastern Front closer to Germany's borders.  In fact, as the war came closer to ending, most of the Russian prisoners, who were often-times lent out to German farmowners as slave labor, were simply shot in pits and other grisly endings so that they could not be liberated by the advancing Red Army. 
Also, most of the communists in German and those captured by German forces (including just about anyone in Soviet borders who was not a soldier) were sent to the same concentration camps as the Jews.  In total, ~20m people died collectively in the Holocaust, of which only 6m were the Jews.  They were the largest _single group_--which is why they are often portrayed as the target of the attacks; I'm sure had there been a few more million Gypsies or handicaps exterminated our outlook of the Holocaust and the stigma around Nazism would be drastically different.   

> Because they are distorting the truth. Those same camps killed a lot more Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians than Jews, yet those activists almost never mention the fact, which leads many to believe that the camps was created solely for the Jews and nobody but the Jews.

 I find this hard to believe considering most of the eastern camps had Ukrainians for guards.  As for distortion of truth, it is more about the Cold War and trying to promote heroism in history.  The US is glad when it actually gets a chance to provide some excuse for being involved in a war.  And while the Holocaust had absolutely nothing to do with US involvement in Europe in WW2, it is used as the ultimate justification for it after the fact to which nobody can give any argument against.  As for the Soviet losses, we do not want to speak of them because Russians were Communists at the time, not because they were non-Jews.  These same outlets of entertainment, news and education that some of you claim are controlled by Jews and thus are giving a 100% Jewish bias to the Holocaust forget that these same outlets also spent 80 years making it seem like a few million dead Communists is not such a bad thing (does anybody remember the slogan, Better Dead than Red?).  As another example, millions of homosexuals were exterminated in the concentration camps too.  History books (in schools) do not speak of them either.  Not because their deaths were less significant, but because it is not something we necessarily wanted to evoke sympathy for or make children think is "moral."

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## Линдзи

1)Whoa, it's Mike!  Awesome!
2)Whoa, Mike, this thread was like a thousand years old.
3)Whoa, Mike, good points!

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## Friendy

> 1)Whoa, it's Mike!  Awesome!
> ...
> 3)Whoa, Mike, good points!

 I can only but sign under these words. 
When I first saw Mike's post, for a moment I thought my eyes are playing tricks on me or that I was not completely awaken yet.

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## bad manners

Frankly, I did not read his post except the final paragraph. I agree with the last paragraph. However, this silent ignoring the truth is distorting the truth. Which, like it or not, has created an end-all excuse for anything if a person or a group of persons may call himself or themselves 'Jewish'.

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## BJ

Mike you are wrong about school books not talking about extermination of homosexuals in the camps. School history books in the UK do talk about this, plus the ill treatment/torture/ murder of gypsies, tramps, nuns, priests and trade union leaders - at least the books my children brought home did

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## Pravit

> I have removed Eagle and all related posts from our community.

 Eh? What's this? It seems that not only our old moderator has been resurrected here.

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## Friendy

> Originally Posted by MasterAdmin  I have removed Eagle and all related posts from our community.   Eh? What's this? It seems that not only our old moderator has been resurrected here.

 I'll tell you for sure that eagle's posts in this thread were never removed. Probably MasterAdmin was talking about some other of his posts.

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## Pravit

Rather spooky. Is Mike going to come back with an army of zombie forumers, such as z80, garmonistka, vbouldr, Tron_somenumber, and Bunny? And heaven forbid - his zombie wife Russkaya_Love!  
I suggest we grab flashlights and head for the spooky roller disco.

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## Friendy

> I suggest we grab flashlights and head for the spooky roller disco.

   ::   Is it a hint on a Bored Corp. Cubicle Party flash cartoon?

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## Pravit

Not really, actually. There are spooky roller discos everywhere. 
And if I remember right, Mike hates "Dilbert." Although that's probably not what you're referring to.

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## Friendy

> Not really, actually. There are spooky roller discos everywhere. 
> And if I remember right, Mike hates "Dilbert." Although that's probably not what you're referring to.

 I was referring to this.

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## mike

> Frankly, I did not read his post except the final paragraph. I agree with the last paragraph. However, this silent ignoring the truth is distorting the truth. Which, like it or not, has created an end-all excuse for anything if a person or a group of persons may call himself or themselves 'Jewish'.

 There is a book I saw in Borders, I forget the title, but it was by a Jewish rabbi and dealt with how the Holocaust has been turned into little more than a money-making inaccurate historical setting much like the Old West or King Arthur's Camelot or what-have-you.  His thesis is that the reason they portray it as Jews vs Nazis or US vs Nazis is because it creates a very convenient backdrop of black and white "good vs evil" (much like the Old West and Camelot--the fake ones, of course, not reality) to make films and television shows, books, political analogies and rhetoric, etc.  I wanted to buy the book, but I had recently cut my hair very short and my brother was visiting from the Coast Guard (so he had a shaved head), and we both have blue eyes so I spent ten minutes deliberating before deciding I would pass on getting it.  Unfortunately, therefore, I cannot give a better description of his view.

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## mike

> Pravit wrote:
> Not really, actually. There are spooky roller discos everywhere. 
> And if I remember right, Mike hates "Dilbert." Although that's probably not what you're referring to. 
> I was referring to this.

 I don't _hate_ Dilbert per se.  I just find it (and most other comic strips) to be rather formulaic and trite.  Allow me to sum up Dilbert for you:  Average guy has sassy talking non-human friend (Dogbert, Catbert, Ratbert--well, Ratbert is not his friend he just works in the Human Resources Dept at the company), makes observations about life that are rather obvious and unfunny, works in crappy job, has stupid boss and quirky friends.  Now let's see how this formula relates outside of Dilbert.  Make "sassy talking non-human friend" a cat, you have Garfield.  Make it a robot, you have Robotman.  Make it a tiger, replace work with school and boss with father, you have Calvin and Hobbes.  Take out father, make tiger dog and you have Peanuts.  Make the sassy talking non-human character a penguin you have Bloom County.  Make slight modifications like this you can pretty much describe everything from Cathy to Ziggy.  The only thing worse than these cookie cutter comics seemingly created by the newspapers like some sort of Mad Lib are the ones that have observations that barely qualify as jokes, like Family Circus.  The punchlines in Family Circus are just like, "Hey Mommy, look at that cloud.  It looks like mashed potatoes, I sure wish I could eat it!" or "I don't know who this Al Kida guy all the growed ups are talking about is but he can't have *my* freedom!  I hid it under the bed with my pet frog, James." or "Pastor Jones says Grandma's not really dead, she's just a ghost made out of dotted lines that does creepy shit in the background of the strip when I'm talking about her."  You know, since we're talking about concentration camps and exterminating people, maybe we ought to construct one specifically for people who find Family Circus funny.  We could save a lot of time tracking them down and transporting them by just installing Zyklon-B pumps into the air conditioning systems at all the country's retirement homes.   

> And heaven forbid - his zombie wife Russkaya_Love!

 Yeah, that's funny in more ways than you can possibly realize.  I can't divulge too much information, but allow me to put it this way:  if she isn't a "zombie" by now there's no way in hell I'm paying the other $25,000.  In other words, if she isn't "consumed by an overwhelming desire to rise from the grave and eat the brains of the living" at this precise moment then I defy them to come get the money from me.  I would really like to see those greaseball lowlifes come over here and

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## mike

hey, this is mark again.  just wanted 2 let everybody know i am fine.  do not call the police or anytihng i am kewl.  relly.  welp, now i must go i have to go live in the himilayas beacuse i decided to be a monk so i will be gone.  forever.  please do not email me or anything like that because budists can't use email, only ms dos and all they let us run is oregon trale.  well, догспит аня everyone.  i have 2 go now.

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## Friendy

> Originally Posted by Pravit   And heaven forbid - his zombie wife Russkaya_Love!   Yeah, that's funny in more ways than you can possibly realize. I can't divulge too much information, but allow me to put it this way: if she isn't a "zombie" by now there's no way in hell I'm paying the other $25,000. In other words, if she isn't "consumed by an overwhelming desire to rise from the grave and eat the brains of the living" at this precise moment then I defy them to come get the money from me. I would really like to see those greaseball lowlifes come over here and

 As far as I can figure out from this (but I'm not good at guessing those kind of riddles) it's about a sue or something like that. It's really scaring and depressing that internet conflicts can come to that  ::  , it probably means that internet is not as free and independent (at least in some countries) as I thought it to be.  
Of course, it's very hard and painful to lose an intelligent, valuable and charismatic forumer  ::  , but the world is not standing still, maybe someday they'll let the monks use internet and visit forums (actually I know some monks, not Buddhist though, _do_ visit forums) and maybe sometimes, say, once in a year (of course the more frequently the better) we'll be receiving an extremely intelligent, reasonable, broad-minded, thought-provoking, fair, unbiased, with amazing sense of humor post from the only monk on this forum. 
Thanks for everything, Mike, good-bye and good luck in everything you want to achieve.  ::  
P.S. If all that monk-thing was a joke then ignore the last two paragraphs of this post.

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## Pravit

Dear Friendy,
I've been to Thailand and the monks(Buddhist, naturally) there can use internet and computers if they want to. As long as it has to do with learning.  
Dear Mike,
I like monks. Alas, I'm also terrible at riddles. What happen?

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## mike

> I like monks. Alas, I'm also terrible at riddles. What happen?

 Clue #1:  My name is not Marc.

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## Friendy

> I like monks. Alas, I'm also terrible at riddles. What happen?
> 			
> 		  Clue #1:  My name is not Marc.

   ::   ::   ::  
Well, since you chose to distort the words in that post I thought you were distorting your name too. A little strange way to do it, but...
Clue #2(3, 4 ...) is not needed.  ::

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## IozefDzhugashvili

> My relatives and my fellow Christians were murdered in the USSR under Jewish Marxism between 1917-1945

 This is exactly the same thing fascist germany used against the USSR, are one of those few that belive communism is a jewish conspiracy? i think the psuedo-fascist national bolshevik movement would be deeply hurt.. dont forget, alot of right winged christians, jews and muslims embraced fascism. 
i dont think russia is any better off these days

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## Paxan

Eagle
OK we got it already.

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