# Forum About Russia Culture and History  Marriage?

## TiaraNEug

Lately I've been hearing a lot of talk about marriage and age in the US. Too young, too old, too big of an age difference between the two...every possible pessimistic reference to marriage-I've heard. I was wondering what the typical age is in Russia to start thinking about or to get married? Are people as psycho there as they are here? Are girls as obsessed with their wedding day as we are over here?

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## VendingMachine

> Lately I've been hearing a lot of talk about marriage and age in the US. Too young, too old, too big of an age difference between the two...every possible pessimistic reference to marriage-I've heard. I was wondering what the typical age is in Russia to start thinking about or to get married? Are people as psycho there as they are here? Are girls as obsessed with their wedding day as we are over here?

 Nowadays men usually marry in their mid to late thirties, women marry in their late twenties to early thirties. That's only true about professional people. Peasants are virtually married as soon as they are born - to their mum, dad, their family pets and the neighbour's goat, a-a-a-a-a-a-aren't they?

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## JJ

> I was wondering what the typical age is in Russia to start thinking about or to get married?

 For men - it's usually after a military service or graduating the university, from 20 to 30, for women - it's from 19 to 25. I married when I was 21. My wife's sister married 3 years ago when she was 20. My cousin married in 1997, he was 24... and so on. Most of the people I know got married before 25, I know only 2 exeption among my friends and relatives.  

> Are people as psycho there as they are here? Are girls as obsessed with their wedding day as we are over here?

 Actually I don't know how the people are psycho there.  ::

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## VendingMachine

> For men - it's usually after a military service or graduating the university, from 20 to 30, for women - it's from 19 to 25. I married when I was 21. My wife's sister married 3 years ago when she was 20. My cousin married in 1997, he was 24... and so on. Most of the people I know got married before 25, I know only 2 exeption among my friends and relatives.

  That's very unusual, at least here in St Petersburg, perhaps that's just a Urals thing? I know loads of women in their late twenties and early thirties who aren't married yet. Most of them are urban professionals - lawyers, managers, interpreters, etc. I think people are getting married later these days, definately not in their early twenties. When you're 20-27 you're supposed to screw around like a rabbit, you certainly don't want any marital ties to pin you down (that goes for both men and women as far as I can see). 
Also, I've noticed that ugly people tend to marry very early, as if they were desperate, you know. I remember all the mingers from school got hitched as soon as they graduated.

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## TiaraNEug

Mingers...what a weird word. 
Getting married in your early to mid 20s makes sense to me. It's the same way around here, though. All the independant women seem to think that they can survive without a man, blah blah blah. Lawyers, doctors and women in such professions sometimes find it hard to find a man that they could marry without feeling superior to him. Id there that superiority complex in Russia too? 
It seems to be a growing trend -for women especially lately- to decide that they don't need/want to get married. Or they get married and divorced a good 5 times. I hate that. 
What happened to the good ol' good ol' days?

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## JB

Went to a (Moscow) school graduation ceremony in June and my friend who teaches there said 1/2 the female graduates were already engaged. Everytime my American girlfriends (18-22 year olds) visit me in Moscow the older Russian relatives start talking about how it's time to find them a husband. Most of my Russian girlfriends in University are engaged and those who are in their early 30's (all professionals) have been married since their early 20's. None are ugly, none are peasants, and none have ever screwed around like rabbits. All are happily monogamous.

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## DDT

> Lawyers, doctors and women in such professions sometimes find it hard to find a man that they could marry without feeling superior to him. Id there that superiority complex in Russia too? 
> ?

 Just as I suspected. There are no real men left in California.

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## VendingMachine

> Went to a (Moscow) school graduation ceremony in June and my friend who teaches there said 1/2 the female graduates were already engaged. Everytime my American girlfriends (18-22 year olds) visit me in Moscow the older Russian relatives start talking about how it's time to find them a husband. Most of my Russian girlfriends in University are engaged and those who are in their early 30's (all professionals) have been married since their early 20's.

 Ha-ha-ha, now that's bollocks, cos in Russia, as you should know, there is no practice of getting engaged as such. And never mind what those silly older Russians say.    

> None are ugly, none are peasants.

 Men often see female beauty differently from women, so your opinion hardly counts for anything in this case.   

> and none have ever screwed around like rabbits. All are happily monogamous.

 There's nowt as queer as fowk  ::

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## VendingMachine

> Mingers...what a weird word.

 British word, you wouldn't know anything about it.   

> Getting married in your early to mid 20s makes sense to me.

 Doesn't make sense to me though. (And therefore it shouldn't make sense to you either.)   

> It's the same way around here, though. All the independant women seem to think that they can survive without a man, blah blah blah.

 No, it's not that over here. Professional women do want to get married but after they've made a career (more or less).   

> Lawyers, doctors and women in such professions sometimes find it hard to find a man that they could marry without feeling superior to him. Id there that superiority complex in Russia too?

 No, doesn't exist here at all. As I said above, it's not about women thinking they can get by without a man, it's about women preferring to settle down when they are more or less secure careerwise.   

> What happened to the good ol' good ol' days?

 People tend to live longer these days. Consequently they are finding it more and more of a challenge to stay married to just one person for the rest of their lives -  because most people are hardly monogamous by nature. I've heard a radio program on this and there was this professor of psycology saying that soon the norm for the vast majority of people will be to get married, have children, get divorced and get married again and possibly have some more children. That's the way of the world, Tiara.

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## TiaraNEug

VM-Sometimes I think the only reason you respond is to hear your own keyboard keys make the cool click click click sound as you type (or not make the sound, depending on how old/new your keboard is). 
Since my question has been answered (thank you), I'm over this conversation because the "supposed to be new and improved VM" has once again ruined the topic by turning a simple conversation into a budding arguement with his uninvited ridiculous posts.   ::

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## Angel_of_Death-NZ

im 18 and have yet to kiss a girl  ::    im not ugly...hope not.

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## Линдзи

> VM-Sometimes I think the only reason you respond is to hear your own keyboard keys make the cool click click click sound as you type (or not make the sound, depending on how old/new your keboard is). 
> Since my question has been answered (thank you), I'm over this conversation because the "supposed to be new and improved VM" has once again ruined the topic by turning a simple conversation into a budding arguement with his uninvited ridiculous posts.

 Curiously enough, the vast majority of VM's post _was_ perfectly sensible, guard his JB-baiting.  The world seems to have been turned on its head.  First I'm agreeing with DDT, now VM...at this point, I'm just waiting for the temple to be rebuilt and the horsemen to show up.   

> Originally Posted by TiaraNEug  Getting married in your early to mid 20s makes sense to me.   Doesn't make sense to me though. (And therefore it shouldn't make sense to you either.)

 No kidding.  Even beyond VM's swinger persona, there are plenty of superb reasons not to marry young, the primary, in my opinion, being that YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO YOU ACTUALLY ARE.  While a person certainly changes over the entire course of his or her life, the late teens/early twenties see a monumental character shift for most people.  The adjustment to adulthood (or the rejection thereof) vastly changes people.  If you marry at, say, age 22, you're doing your spouse a tremendous injustice.  They'll find themselves married to a stranger with your name just a few years later.   

> Originally Posted by TiaraNEug  It's the same way around here, though. All the independant women seem to think that they can survive without a man, blah blah blah.   No, it's not that over here. Professional women do want to get married but after they've made a career (more or less).

 Same here, really.  Please ignore Tiara's Phyllis Schlafly-esque ramblings.  Beyond the fact, of course, that it _is_ possible to survive without a man (the hell?  It's not like all the single women in the world are curling up and dying), most "independent women" that I know, myself included, want to marry...eventually.  I want to marry someone that I love and who makes my life richer and more interesting.  But I'm not looking to marry for SURVIVAL. I can damn well feed and clothe myself.  I can be happy by myself.  This isn't the year 1200.  I want to find out what career is best for me, what lifestyle suits me, where I want to live, etc.  And frankly, it's not fair to me or to a potential spouse for me to marry before I do that.  Am I supposed to drag him around the globe on my quest to find myself?  Pshaw.  Not to mention that I'd rather marry someone older and more situated.   

> Originally Posted by Phyllis Schlafly   Lawyers, doctors and women in such professions sometimes find it hard to find a man that they could marry without feeling superior to him. Id there that superiority complex in Russia too?   No, doesn't exist here at all. As I said above, it's not about women thinking they can get by without a man, it's about women preferring to settle down when they are more or less secure careerwise.

 What, Tiara, do you want to marry someone who wants you barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen all your life?  It's not about a "superiority complex."  It's about finding an equal.  That doesn't necessarily mean someone who is your equal career-wise, but someone who respects you and whom you can respect.  Doctors and lawyers have demanding professions.  Any spouse of a doctor or lawyer, male or female, is going to have to be willing to respect the demands of the profession.  Sometimes that's hard to find.   

> Originally Posted by Phyllis Schlafly   What happened to the good ol' good ol' days?   People tend to live longer these days. Consequently they are finding it more and more of a challenge to stay married to just one person for the rest of their lives -  because most people are hardly monogamous by nature.

 I rather suspect VM is right, alas.  But in any case, I'm not sure what "good ol' days" you're talking about, Tiara.  When _was_ this era of perfect domesticity?  To what time do we need to turn back the clocks?

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## VendingMachine

> VM-Sometimes I think the only reason you respond is to hear your own keyboard keys make the cool click click click sound as you type (or not make the sound, depending on how old/new your keboard is). 
> Since my question has been answered (thank you), I'm over this conversation because the "supposed to be new and improved VM" has once again ruined the topic by turning a simple conversation into a budding arguement with his uninvited ridiculous posts.

 Tiara, sometimes I think the only reason you ask questions on this forum is to check if the others are aware of your presence. What pisses me off about you is that you act as if you owned your discussions. Try to grasp the following: any discussion you start no longer belongs to you once the question has been posted, everyone has the right to contribute and discussions can and do take new turns. As usual, the following very simple rule applies - if you can't stand the heat, get the <censored> out of the kitchen. 
And remember this, lady - I post what I like and when I like and I need no invitation from anyone including you to do so. My behaviour here is regulated by the rules of this forum which I have a printout of in a very expensive wooden frame that you can't even afford and will probably have to work for decades to be able to buy on hire purchase while affluent old me casually strolled into that posh Faberge store and bought it cash up front - it hangs on the wall next to that famous portrait of my pitbull where I can always see it.   ::   ::   ::   
Re: "supposed to be new and improved VM" -  shouldn't you knock off the booze? I'm as mean as I used to be.

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## Garee

> And remember this, lady - I post what I like and when I like and I need no invitation from anyone including you to do so. My behaviour here is regulated by the rules of this forum which I have a printout of in a very expensive wooden frame that you can't even afford and will probably have to work for decades to be able to buy on hire purchase while affluent old me casually strolled into that posh Faberge store and bought it cash up front - it hangs on the wall next to that famous portrait of my pitbull where I can always see it.      
> Re: "supposed to be new and improved VM" -  shouldn't you knock off the booze? I'm as mean as I used to be.

   ::   That's the best insult I've heard all week.

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## JB

Lindsay, I think that while VM's view (except for the silliness that only the ugly marry young and 20-27 is the time to do it like bunnies)is logical to the American and British culture, the reality in Russia is more along the lines of JJ's post.
Marriage for women in Russia also seems to be not only a partnership for love but also survival. Very few single women there have the economic independence that American women have. Also the culture is much more macho than America.
My Russian girlfriends are amazed by the American culture of female independence. They think we are crazy for doing what they consider a man's job, i.e. fixing our own pipes and cars, carrying heavy packages instead of giving them to our husbands, opening doors for men etc, and they can't imagine doing these things without a man. They also express worry for women who aren't married by the age of 25, and pity for any female over 30 without a husband. Their deadline for "all the good ones are taken" seems to fall a lot earlier than the American version.

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## Линдзи

> Lindsay, I think that while VM's view (except for the silliness that only the ugly marry young and 20-27 is the time to do it like bunnies)is logical to the American and British culture, the reality in Russia is more along the lines of JJ's post.

 Oh, quite.  But I'm not arguing that he's right about _Russia_.  I'm agreeing with the reasons he gave for not becoming a child bride.

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## JJ

> That's very unusual, at least here in St Petersburg, perhaps that's just a Urals thing? I know loads of women in their late twenties and early thirties who aren't married yet.

  

> They also express worry for women who aren't married by the age of 25, and pity for any female over 30 without a husband.

 As my father said "В 20 лет ума нет - и не будет, в 30 лет жены нет - и не будет, в 40 лет денег нет - и не будет".  ::  Everything is good in its season. The singles over 30 have their own life and habits but marry always changes them and IMHO, it's harder to change something in your life over 30 than at 20. Also, it's no good for a woman's health to give birth to her 1st child over 30.

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## VendingMachine

> blah blah blah ... the reality in Russia is more along the lines of JJ's post

 I wonder what exactly you know about the "reality" of life in Russia - I mean you who recently put a foot in it again by telling that cock and bull story of Russians getting engaged. To anyone who has ever been to Russia and bothered to learn about our culture that statement should sound rediculous as there is no tradition of getting engaged in Russia - people meet, people date, people get married - but there's no custom of getting "engaged" in the Western sense of that word.   

> fixing our own pipes and cars, carrying heavy packages instead of giving them to our husbands, opening doors for men etc

 Well, I dunno, yesterday I was going to install a new kazi (the U-bend was leaking), but instead I had sex with my girlfriend and naturally she wanted to be nice to me in return so she did all the plumbing herself, I only had to pilot test it afterwards. Also she did the washing up and later helped me to adjust the polar mount of my satellite dish. She then cooked a superb borscht and we drove to my stately home in the country (the village of Twatskoye, north of Berkinovo) where she tieded up in her toolshed, cleaned out the soot from the chimbley and chopped up some wood. On the way home we stopped to buy copious amounts of expensive computer hardware - I payed with her credit card for whatever piece of equipment she pointed at (naturally she carried the stuff back to the car herself and she ran in front of me to open the door for me). Coming home she did the ironing and cooked a wonderful dinner. After that she fixed my DVD player. Somehow I still can't get rid of the feeling that the woman is bone lazy.

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## VendingMachine

> Also, it's no good for a woman's health to give birth to her 1st child over 30.

 Not true. If a woman stays off fags and booze she's healthier than a 20 year old who does it all. My mum had me when she was 32 - no complications whatsoever, the healthiest birth in ages she was told by the midwife. But I've seen some 20 year olds have problems because of their shitty lifestyle. Basically that "you should have kids before you're 30" applies only to peasant women and those who drink and smoke. Consider this: I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems but I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK - all those women lead a very healthy, active lifestyle and look better than your average peasant 20 year old one does.

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## waxwing

bone idle .. and i think it should be 'khazi' but can't be bothered to check

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## VendingMachine

> bone idle .. and i think it should be 'khazi' but can't be bothered to check

 bone-lazy -- czech this out: http://www.kidsseek.co.uk/d.php?word=bone-lazy (c) так что садись, waxwing, три. 
as for kazi vs. khazi - I was going to spell it khazi but changed me mind.
(kazi - 14,700 google hits, khazi - 2,090 google hits - draw your own conclusions Mr Pathetic Spellchecker)

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## JJ

> Originally Posted by JJ  Also, it's no good for a woman's health to give birth to her 1st child over 30.   Not true.

 Just ask any gynecologist about this. It's much safer for health to give birth the 1st child before 30.

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## waxwing

You're paranoid VM, I was trying to help you refine your wonderful command of the language ..  
Your link on 'bone lazy' is very weird: at the top it says 'definitions of the word bone-lazy' and then lists definitions of 'bone' and 'lazy' but none of 'bone-lazy' or 'bone lazy' ..   :: 
I don't believe in 'bone lazy', I've only ever heard bone idle, but go ahead and prove me wrong, I'll learn something. That link was just silly. 
About khazi, it's not so easy to get a definitive answer, as I suspected. Well not in 5 minutes  ::  I'd love to know the etymology though; I always vaguely suspected it was Indian, but maybe not.

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## VendingMachine

> Just ask any gynecologist about this. It's much safer for health to give birth the 1st child before 30.

 I have asked - my friend is a gynecologist. Here's what he said. It's not about age at all, only stupid people would say so. It's about the fitness of the woman's organism. Consider this: many centuries ago people's life expectancy was much lower,  30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds. For those people the optimal child bearing age was, say, 14 - 17. Today people live longer and healthier lives - and consequently the optimal child bearing age is later in life than it used to be. Now, where does this "30 years old" come from? It comes from the fact that many women in our society will have worn out their organisms with booze and fags by the age of approximately 30. However, _and this is very important, so pay attention_, there's nothing special about the figure of 30 itself - if they smoked and drank more than they do
it'd be a different figure, say 21 or something. Theoretically a 40 year old woman can be healthier than a 20 year old one and it is perfectly possible for the mechanisms in her body which are responsible for the alas inevitable decrease in her organism's ability to conceive and bear a child not to kick in yet - a 20 year old one may well have set those mechanisms in motion while a 40 year old one hasn't. Now, that's in theory, but in practice we have a society where only a handful of people choose not to poison themselves with nicotine and alcahol - naturally the majority of women are uncapable of producing offspring by the time they hit 30. I repeat, there's nothing special about the number 30, it's all about the fitness of the woman's organism. If most people continue to knock it back like f@cking goldfish and smoke like f@cking chimneys gynicologists will be screaming a different figure, much less than today. However, those women who do look after themselves (drink a lot of mineral water, eat tons of veg and fruit and stuff like sushi, etc) can and do have healthy babies well into their 30s. Alas the majority in this country belongs to the social layer I call "bogstandard peasants" and it won't be long before this riff-raff is incapable of having children at all. However, I personally know many women in their late thirties and forties who look better than the majority of 20 year olds and who successfully had children in their early thirties.

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## VendingMachine

*waxwing* 
Here you go Mr Doubting Moustafa:  

> ...Any political reporter who is so bone-lazy that he simply reproduces Alistair Campbell'spress releases unedited should resign and take up childminding...

  

> The Irish were mocked as "bone lazy boggers"...

  

> Even bone-lazy kids will love these excavation kits...

  

> Is this recognised by the teaching profession, or are the kids
> who try to bunk-off just considered bone lazy?

  

> 'I don't hate thee,' said Tim uneasily, 'but I do love fighting; I'd liever thee'd fight than come another mile. Don't thee come any farther, I've been bone lazy all day, and thee's been at work. And I say, Stevie, I'll help thee with the potatoes to-morrow, to make up for this bout.'

 (this one's from http://www3.shropshire-cc.gov.uk/etexts/E000312.htm) 
Just google around. You're pathetic. 
Regarding khazi vs. kazi neither is correct, should be khasi, but it doesn't really matter.

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## scotcher

"Bone idle" is far more common. I've heard "bone lazy" once or twice, but it doesn't sound right (to me) and I've always just dismissed the writer as illiterate, or just plain bone idle.

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## VendingMachine

> "Bone idle" is far more common. I've heard "bone lazy" once or twice, but it doesn't sound right (to me) and I've always just dismissed the writer as illiterate, or just plain bone idle.

 Heard? The writer? You mean like what in _bukes_? And do they come with nice jackets, those _bukes_?  
Still the idiom exists (google around and see for _thissen_) - therefore it's один нул в мою пойза! OK, I have a penchent for rare idioms (read 'elite') but ye hannae got nane, which is worse.

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## Janice McNay

VM wrote: 
  "...many centuries ago people's life expectancy was much lower, 30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds. " 
  The reason that life expectancy was so much lower in times past was because of the extremely high infant mortality rates.  Hundreds of years ago, it was not considered very unusual for people to live into their eighties. It was much less common, of course, but it was far from unheard of.  
   Thirty-year-olds were not considered to be like today's 80 year olds. Yesterday's 80 year olds were considered to be like today's 80 year olds.   
  By the way, the age that is, statistically speaking, the best age for a woman to give birth is at the age of 26. At this age, mothers' and babies' mortality rates are lowest.

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## VendingMachine

> The reason that life expectancy was so much lower in times past was because of the extremely high infant mortality rates.

 And why was that the case, have you ever wondered? Because people were generally rather unhealthy.   

> Hundreds of years ago, it was not considered very unusual for people to live into their eighties. It was much less common, of course, but it was far from unheard of.

 Depending on how many hundred of years we go back. Everything is relative.   

> Thirty-year-olds were not considered to be like today's 80 year olds.

 They were. Believe me, I happen to know. In the meantime, re-read what I wrote above.   

> By the way, the age that is, statistically speaking, the best age for a woman to give birth is at the age of 26. At this age, mothers' and babies' mortality rates are lowest.

 Depends on the country. In some countries the quality of life is still pretty much mediaeval and different rules apply. And again we go back to the general state of people's health and how it changes with age - in different societies it's different. I'll give you an example to illustrate my point - while in Holland a 20 something y.o. woman with false teeth is a rare but not a freak occurance, in Russia it's totally unheard of. A 30 y.o. woman from Holland with false teeth is sadly becoming the norm, but in Russia it's still unheard of. Naturally a Dutch woman will not want to put off having babies until she's 30 for she risks scaring them to death (and here's a high infant mortality rate for you).

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## DDT

> The reason that life expectancy was so much lower in times past was because of the extremely high infant mortality rates.  Hundreds of years ago, it was not considered very unusual for people to live into their eighties. It was much less common, of course, but it was far from unheard of.  
>    Thirty-year-olds were not considered to be like today's 80 year olds. Yesterday's 80 year olds were considered to be like today's 80 year olds.   
> .

 Thankyou Janice, you are right. I become so tired of even the most learned historians distortion of the life expectancy rate of past peoples.

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## JB

Well slap me with a Big Mac but I could have sworn that when two people agree to get married, are planning a wedding and reception, are looking for a home and buying the stuff to put in it and live there together after the wedding, that they are "engaged" to be married. Russians don't have the same cutural traditions as Americans (or Chinese, or Mexicans, or Arabs)and don't call it by the same name, but the process and outcome still result in marriage. 
The incidence for birth of a trisomy 21 infant in a 20 year old woman is 1/1600. The incidence increases with each year of maternal age and is 1/370 at the maternal age of 35 years. The incidences of trisomy 13 and trisomy 18 also increase with maternal age.
The optimal physical age for a woman to give birth is in her 20's. Maternal and infant morbidity and mortality increase after that. Variables such as an unhealthy maternal life style, substance abuse, and pre-existing conditions (family history, current health problems, etc) can increase the health risks to mother and fetus but a healthy mom and a healthy lifestyle do not decrease the risks due to maternal age.
Infertility is also a real problem for women who wish to get pregnant after 30. Living the VM lifestyle (doing it like bunnies all through your 20's)causes repeated (usually silent) infections of the female reproductive organs that results in scarring and infertility.(and the big lie is that condoms will protect you). Incurable sexually transmitted infections such as herpes, HPV, and hepatitis C can also seriously increase the morbidity and mortality for mom and baby.

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## Janice McNay

VM wrote: 
"They were. Believe me, I happen to know. In the meantime, re-read what I wrote above." 
  Ok. I've re-read what you wrote above. Am I to believe you merely because you so emphatically state, "I happen to know." ?
   At the risk of making myself the target of some withering diatribe by you, I must say that I remain unimpressed.
   You really 'know' only if one of these is true: 
                    A). You have a working Time Machine, or:
                    B).You are several hundred years old.
   Unless one is true then, no, you do NOT know.

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## VendingMachine

> VM wrote: 
> "They were. Believe me, I happen to know. In the meantime, re-read what I wrote above." 
>   Ok. I've re-read what you wrote above. Am I to believe you merely because you so emphatically state, "I happen to know." ?
>    At the risk of making myself the target of some withering diatribe by you, I must say that I remain unimpressed.
>    You really 'know' only if one of these is true: 
>                     A). You have a working Time Machine, or:
>                     B).You are several hundred years old.
>    Unless one is true then, no, you do NOT know.

 A toadstool is more intellegent than you. Obviously you don't know what scientific analysis is and you've never heard of radioactive dating and other ways scientists use to determine a) the age of the fossil/remains, etc, b) when the organism died and c) its diet, d) state of health, etc. Go back to school, child and next time do your homework.

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## VendingMachine

> Well slap me with a Big Mac but I could have sworn that when two people agree to get married, are planning a wedding and reception, are looking for a home and buying the stuff to put in it and live there together after the wedding, that they are "engaged" to be married.

 So brace yourself a good hard slap with a Big Mac across your chevy chase. Therem take it! It's not the same thing AT ALL.   

> The optimal physical age for a woman to give birth is in her 20's. Maternal and infant morbidity and mortality increase after that. Variables such as an unhealthy maternal life style, substance abuse, and pre-existing conditions (family history, current health problems, etc) can increase the health risks to mother and fetus but a healthy mom and a healthy lifestyle do not decrease the risks due to maternal age.
> Infertility is also a real problem for women who wish to get pregnant after 30. Living the VM lifestyle (doing it like bunnies all through your 20's)causes repeated (usually silent) infections of the female reproductive organs that results in scarring and infertility.(and the big lie is that condoms will protect you). Incurable sexually transmitted infections such as herpes, HPV, and hepatitis C can also seriously increase the morbidity and mortality for mom and baby.

 I'm sorry, but you're not a particularly bright individual if you can't distinguish between age as such and the fact that certain processes tend to start/finish at/by a certain age in the majority of people from a particular country/social group, etc. You should be aware of the fact that people age differently depending on such factors as a) cultural baggage, b) way of life, c) quality of life, d) quality of medical service, e) .... 
Nowadays there's a tendency among progressive people to lead a very active and healthy lifestyle and those problems hit them much later in life. In fact those problem hit them when they should hit them according to their organism's constitution - it's not in your late twenties that it's normal from the point of view of mother nature for you to develop those conditions, but much much later in life, however, because most people are PEASANTS and don't give a sh*t about their own bodies, they tend to prematurely kickstart those processes by drinking copious amounts of alcahol and smoking like f*cking chimneys and never, I repeat, never ever working out (most people's idea of working out is to scratch their @rse a coupla times while watching a stupid mind-numbing gameshow). Indeed it turns out that by their mid twenties their bodies are a f*cking wreck. And in comes our JB and screams about women having problems with childbirth at that age. It's not because those problems hit women at that age, it's because they lead a lifestyle that deplores their bodies and accelerates all distructive processes in their organisms and for a sizeable majority of those peasants at this point in time and history (as seen projected unto a particular cultural/social backdrop) it JUST HAPPENS to be mid twenties-early thirties. THOSE PROCESSES ARE NOT PROGRAMMED BY NATURE FOR A CERTAIN AGE, THEY ARE TRIGGERED BY THE OVERALL FITNESSES OF THE ORGANISM, and just because it takes your typical peasant 20-something years to bring her organism to the point when those processes are accelerated doesn't mean that 20-something is the nature's way - it's mearly the riff-raff's choice. 
As for silent infections and all that BS - you do not get infections from people who wash their backsides, you only get them from filthy animals which, in fact, most of those peasants indeed are. But I'm not bothered about peasants pissing barbed wire - progressive people shag only progressive birds and those don't sleep with bogstandard riff-raff.
And as I said before I KNOW LOADS OF WOMEN WHO GAVE BIRTH WHEN THEY WERE OVER 30 AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING CONCEPTION). True, those were active mums who preferred carrot juice to beer but that's the kind of people we're talking about - progressive elite vs. bogstandard riff-raff. 
Anyway, that's what a professor of gynecology and his many colleagues all over the world think. I'm afraid, JB, your backward opinions describe you as a redneck midwife forever stuck in the stoneage of quack medical theories.

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## Janice McNay

A quote from that fellow who really knows how to argue, yet always does it with high intellectual air and graceful gentlemanliness: 
--"A toadstool is more intellegent than you. Obviously you don't know what scientific analysis is and you've never heard of radioactive dating and other ways scientists use to determine a) the age of the fossil/remains, etc, b) when the organism died and c) its diet, d) state of health, etc. Go back to school, child and next time do your homework."-- 
What do.... “radioactive dating and other ways scientists use to determine a) the age of the fossil/remains, etc, b) when the organism died and c) its diet, d) state of health, etc”  have to do with the point you are attempting to argue? 
 Remember, your  point: "30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds."   Nothing is a surer sign that you have no idea how to further your argument concerning this question than your resorting to the insults you hurled at me.  A toadstool may be more intelligent than me, but I know when I have the winning side: when my opponent can be no more than vicious.

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## JB

VM, you are either trying real hard to sound stupid, or you really are stupid. Only the very young and very uneducated would believe "The VM Guide to Obstetrics". Knowing "loads of women who gave birth when they were over 30" is a joke right? Why don't you type that up and send it into Lancet. I bet they can't wait to publish it !  ::  
As for your professor of gynecology, buy him a copy of William's Obstetrics (required reading for 1st year medical students).
 And you and your progressive birds should never worry about taking a trip down to the polyclinic for any of those silly STD tests. Because only peasants get AIDS and all those other poor people diseases.  ::

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## майк

To be fair, the vast majority of the posts by *VendingMachine* are interesting, informative and based on reasonable argument. I don’t think that the entity VM is paranoid waxwing, it's just somebody who in the real world would get it's lights punched out. But friendliness is not VM’s thing: standing of course behind the apparent anonymity of the Internet. 
I'm sorry I missed appointment by you to the role of 'Mr Pathetic Spellchecker' VM (waxwing beat me to it) - nevertheless here are some points for discussion: -   

> I mean you who recently put a foot in it again by telling that cock and bull story of Russians getting engaged.

 Usually the expression in English is, ‘put your / his / her / their / my foot in it again’. Looks weird with put *a* foot in it…’   

> To anyone who has ever been to Russia and bothered to learn about our culture that statement should sound rediculous as there is no tradition of getting engaged in Russia.

 ‘To anyone who has ever been to Russia and bothered to learn about our culture that statement *would* sound ridiculous. Briefly '*Should*' is used to indicate obligation ('_I should go_') or used in a polite form ('_I should like to go but I can't_').   

> she tieded up in her toolshed, cleaned out the soot from the chimbley and chopped up some wood.

 she tidied up...   

> I payed with her credit card for whatever piece of equipment she pointed at.

 Similar mistake again - Past tense and past participle 'paid' or 'payed' - To let out (a line) by slackening. I think VM meant, 'I paid with her credit card'.   

> the woman is bone lazy.

 Normally, in English, one would say - is ‘bone idle’ or ‘a lazy bones’. Bone lazy exists, quite a few hits on Google. The misuse of ‘payed’ is frequent – many hits on Google.   

> I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems but I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK

 Did VM mean to write ‘I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems *and* I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK'? 
'I know not a single woman' - is that an unmarried woman or 'I do not know any woman'?   

> alcahol

 'alcohol' - I haven't corrected typos but the VM machine made this mistake more than once.   

> it's mearly the riff-raff's choice

 'merely'

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## waxwing

> Originally Posted by VendingMachine  To anyone who has ever been to Russia and bothered to learn about our culture that statement should sound rediculous as there is no tradition of getting engaged in Russia.   ‘To anyone who has ever been to Russia and bothered to learn about our culture that statement *would* sound ridiculous. Briefly '*Should*' is used to indicate obligation ('_I should go_') or used in a polite form ('_I should like to go but I can't_').

 I think the use of 'should' here is absolutely normal, and it's the sense of obligation. In other words, you should feel ashamed of yourself if you don't know this (having been to Russia and learned about the culture).   

> Originally Posted by VendingMachine  I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems but I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK   Did VM mean to write ‘I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems *and* I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK'?

 I'm not trying to vouch for this sentence as exemplary English, but that seems like an unnecessary correction. He's just contrasting the fact that he has no acquaintances who meet the first criterion but he has some that meet the second. There are already two 'and's in the sentence  ::    

> 'I know not a single woman' - is that an unmarried woman or 'I do not know any woman'?

 Of course he means the latter. I think that's OK too (if unusual). But I'm not 100% sure about it.

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## майк

> I think the use of 'should' here is absolutely normal, and it's the sense of obligation. In other words, you should feel ashamed of yourself if you don't know this (having been to Russia and learned about the culture).

 VM's original sounds a bit strange in the rhythm of the text but I agree, I was being too picky. Personally I would have said, 'ought to' because of the various meanings of 'should'.   

> Originally Posted by майк        Originally Posted by VendingMachine  I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems but I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK   Did VM mean to write ‘I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems *and* I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK'?   I'm not trying to vouch for this sentence as exemplary English, but that seems like an unnecessary correction. He's just contrasting the fact that he has no acquaintances who meet the first criterion but he has some that meet the second. There are already two 'and's in the sentence

 I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems but I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK  
'I know of no woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems', is the same as, 'All the woman I know who gave birth after 30 had no problems'? If so, 'but' should be 'and' 
AND 
I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK.  
I don't think I have the logic wrong. I'll find out any moment no doubt. *But* means (_inter alia_) 'in contrast' and '*and*' means (etc etc) 'in addition to.....'

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## waxwing

Well, OK, imagine that VM knows 100 women (just imagine  :: ):
Perhaps he knows that 8 of them had children after 30 and had no problems. About the other 92 he has no special information (he may not even know if they're mothers).
Then this statement:  

> I know not a single woman who gave birth after 30 and had problems but I know a lot who gave birth to their first child in their early thirties and it was OK.

 is perfectly reasonable, if lazily expressed. I say 'lazily' because it doesn't distinguish between knowing a woman who fits/doesn't fit the criterion, and knowing _that_ a woman fits/doesn't fit the criterion.
In any case, this kind of logic slippage is perfectly normal in everyday discussion. People often put it like "I don't know of a single woman who.."  
"I don't know [of] any women who prefer broccoli to chocolate" <-- it's quite possible that the speaker does know such a woman, but is unaware of her unusual preference. 
I hope I have not dragged us even farther away from the point....  ::

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## майк

> I hope I have not dragged us even farther away from the point....

 The point was a slanging match about....well, it's up there, or down there, either way works. 
The 'logic slippage' yields this: With my 'AND' VM's statement means that he doesn't know a women over 30 who has experienced a problem and he knows many whose first-child birth was problem free. But, the same statement with the original 'BUT' relies on the first clause being founded on a blissful ignorance in general of the birthing problems of the over 30s. I get it  ::  Anyway waxwing I'm too bone-lazy to go on!

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## VendingMachine

Now, would you like to correct your mistakes, Mr Grammatical?   

> With my 'AND' VM's statement means that he doesn't know a women over 30 who has experienced a problem and he knows many whose first-child birth was problem free.

  

> 'All the woman I know who gave birth after 30 had no problems'

  

> If so, 'but' should be 'and'

 How you managed to get through high school is just past me... 
Shall I give you a hand with your punctuation?  

> Anyway waxwing I'm too bone-lazy to go on!

 @Janice:  

> but I know when I have the winning side: when my opponent can be no more than vicious

 That's because the only lingo you understand is that of viciousness. You can't even follow my line of reasoning, you're completely deprived of the ability to think logically and that's why you fail to see the connection between what I've been saying here and what's clear as daylight to anyone who has at least an ounce of grey matter in their top paddock. Consider yourself written off as a total social and academic failure. 
As for you, JB, I can only recommend that you go back to square one and re-read my postings because you have once again demonstrated your inability to grasp the simple truth that I've been trying to explain to you all along, namely that the connection between the figure of 30 and the fact that certain things happen inside a woman's body when she's that age is dictated only by the fact that in this day and age the majority of women will have deplored their organisms by that very age and that many years ago this figure was different from what it is today and that it is constantly changing - slowly but inevitably changing. All those 30 y.o. women I was talking about had bodies of your average 20 year olds - there's no contradiction here with science which gives reference to age groups only in the social context of our societies because the average person is assumed to develop this and that condition by this and that age, etc. and it is possible to have lived 40 years on this planet and have a body whose major readings are the same as those of a 20 year old. Unfortunately you're too thick to undertsnad such a simple fact. So please send your midwifing colleagues my love - next time y'all go out onto the porch to git some beer from the fridge. I'm a fixin to come round to yo' ranch and stroke yo' dawg someday...

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## майк

> Now, would you like to correct your mistakes, Mr Grammatical?

 Frankly VM, that response is so lacklustre, it's useless. It's almost a compliment. Come on, get a grip!   

> How you managed to get through high school is just past me...

 Yes, it gets used: 20 hits in your Google. You might consider: -
is just beyond me..., or maybe
just passes me by...
just passed me by...   

> Shall I give you a hand with your punctuation?

 Of course! That is why I am here! And whether in English or Russian. You may agree with me that the conversation is not always as erudite as it might be but there are, at least, some excellent opportunities for language development. The density of your invective leads much to be desired but, VM, you are highly skilled in English and, my guess is, even more adept at Russian. So, crack on, correct at will. 
btw is it 'adept in' or 'adept at' - does it matter? 
Anyway *VM*, apart from being diverted by my despicable grammar, did you give any consideration to the logic of my proposals?

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## joysof

> But, like *joysof*, friendliness is not VM’s thing: standing of course behind the apparent anonymity of the Internet.

 What?! An unnecessary jibe? You're learning, clearly.

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## майк

> What?! An unnecessary jibe?

 Yes. I agree. I stand by the previous thread but I apologise *joysof* for referring to it here.

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## VendingMachine

> Frankly VM, that response is so lacklustre, it's useless. It's almost a compliment. Come on, get a grip!

 If there's anyone here who needs getting a grip, it's you. What I did is give you the taste of your own medicine. What, you found it hard to swallow?   

> How you managed to get through high school is just past me...

 I don't give an airborne act of fornication how many google hits it produces, all I know is that my English teacher - a true Englishman born and bred - says so.   

> Of course!That is why I am here! And whether in English or Russian.

 I'm sorry to disappoint you, *mike*, but I don't speak English - I speak a language _related to English_ - it's called Veyemglish - it's a totally different language with its own vocabulary and grammar. You wouldn't know anything about it.   

> Anyway *VM*, apart from being diverted by my despicable grammar, did you give any consideration to the logic of my proposals?

 No, I didn't. Should I?

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## VendingMachine

And one more thing, *mike* - you speak of anonymity, so I dare you to look me up when you come to St Pete. Look me up if you dare.

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## Линдзи

> And one more thing, *mike* - you speak of anonymity, so I dare you to look me up when you come to St Pete. Look me up if you dare.

 Hee.  Are you listed under V for "VendingMachine" or M for "Machine, Vending"?   

> But, like *joysof*, friendliness is not VM’s thing: standing of course behind the apparent anonymity of the Internet.

 No, a reasonable expectation of literacy and intelligence are joysof's thing.  Alas that _certain_ people around here can't meet such standards.

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## VendingMachine

> Originally Posted by VendingMachine  And one more thing, *mike* - you speak of anonymity, so I dare you to look me up when you come to St Pete. Look me up if you dare.   Hee.  Are you listed under V for "VendingMachine" or M for "Machine, Vending"?

 Ha-ha-ha-ha   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::  You've made my day with that joke, Линдзи. You and the woman I love who has just agreed to become my wife. I'm the happiest man in the world now, so let us wipe the slate clean, Линдзи, shall we? I'm sorry I called you a cowgirl. You're not a cowgirl. You must be a very nice and intelligent woman and you have a grand sense of humour. 
Anyway, *mike* can just pm me and I'll tell him how to find me, but I know he won't cos he ain't got the bottle. 
P.S. JB - we're still at war.   ::

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## Линдзи

> Ha-ha-ha-ha       You've made my day with that joke, Линдзи. You and the woman I love who has just agreed to become my wife. I'm the happiest man in the world now, so let us wipe the slate clean, Линдзи, shall we? I'm sorry I called you a cowgirl. You're not a cowgirl. You must be a very nice and intelligent woman and you have a grand sense of humour.

 Oh, Vendy!  But...but...it can never be.  Ours is a love forbidden. We're from different worlds!   You're a vodkomat!  I'm a schoolteacher!  _Don't you understand_?!  If I let myself love you, _I'll lose myself_! 
Damn you, Vendy, for making me think...for making me think that we had a _chance!_   ::

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## VendingMachine

Ahem, Lindzi, I'm sorry, Lindzi, I don't know how to put this, but, erm, would you like to re-read my post? It wasn't...erm, actually, well, you see, there's this other girl...erm...not you...right...it's her I'm marrying. Wow, I said it! Well, it wasn't that difficult after all [wipes sweat off his forehead]

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## Janice McNay

“Janice:
...“ ‘but I know when I have the winning side: when my opponent can be no more than vicious. ’ ” 
 “That's because the only lingo you understand is that of viciousness. You can't even follow my line of reasoning, you're completely deprived of the ability to think logically and that's why you fail to see the connection between what I've been saying here and what's clear as daylight to anyone who has at least an ounce of grey matter in their top paddock. Consider yourself written off as a total social and academic failure.” 
   You are igoring the question. You were trying to defend this statement: "30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds." 
   Because you know you made an error in this assertion, you no longer try to defend it. Instead, you dismiss me. That makes you no less wrong, nor your assertion no more defensible.
   It is sad that a person of your obvious intelligence should lack utterly the ability to admit a mistake.

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## Линдзи

> Ahem, Lindzi, I'm sorry, Lindzi, I don't know how to put this, but, erm, would you like to re-read my post? It wasn't...erm, actually, well, you see, there's this other girl...erm...not you...right...it's her I'm marrying. Wow, I said it! Well, it wasn't that difficult after all [wipes sweat off his forehead]

 [softly] I...I understand.  I... 
No, don't say anything. 
[awkward pause] 
Well, I guess...see you around, VM.  [walks away, pauses, glances back over shoulder] And...VM?  Take care of yourself.

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## VendingMachine

> You are igoring the question. You were trying to defend this statement.... "30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds." 
>    Because you know you made an error in this assertion, you no longer try to defend it. Instead, you dismiss me. That makes you no less wrong, nor your assertion no more defensible.
>    It is sad that a person of your obvious intelligence should lack utterly the ability to admit a mistake.

 The statement you're refering to needs not to be defended - to anyone with a brain it's an axyom, nevertheless I patiently explained to you why that statement is true and I'm not going to do it again because I can see you simply can't be arsed to effing scroll back and re-read my explanations. I'm walking on air tonight so I'll skip that rude comment I was going to make. And it's you who's made a mistake and won't admit it - but that's OK, I know that some Westerners are like that.  
P.S. Dinnae ye find it a wee bit ironic thit yer surname shuid mean 'no' in English - fut wi yer havin made sae muckle negative an' ill-heartit posts an' aw? Ken fut ahm talkin aboot?

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## Janice McNay

Your attacks on my intelligence do not bother me. I expected nothing better from you; anyone having the temerity to disagree with you receives the same treatment. 
I have re-read, again, your posts concerning the following opinion you gave. This is the root cause of our current disagreement:  "...many centuries ago people's life expectancy was much lower, 30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds.   
I have no disagreement with the former part of your statement. I vehemently disagree with the latter part.
   You refuse to defend this statement any further. If this statement were true, it would mean that much of our view of the past would have to be changed. History’s prism would shift, not drastically, but enough.  But, your assertion about how people around 30 years of age were then seen is false. 
   Rather than throwing more insults my way, you really ought to try enlightening me further.  You wrote this:  "They were. Believe me, I happen to know. In the meantime, re-read what I wrote above." 
Then, this:
A toadstool is more intellegent(sic) than you. Obviously you don't know what scientific analysis is and you've never heard of radioactive dating and other ways scientists use to determine a) the age of the fossil/remains, etc, b) when the organism died and c) its diet, d) state of health, etc. . 
I still do not see what radiocative (carbon) dating and other ways of determining the age of fossils has to do with your assertion that: 30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds.  I await from you further explanation or further insults. I expect only further insults because you know the facts are not with you.
  By the way, my Irish accent is much better than your execrable satirization of it.

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## Линдзи

Janice.  Two things. 
1)Did you notice the part upthread where VendingMachine claimed to speak a language called "Veyemglish"?  Or that he comes from the village "Twatskoye"? Such things are what we in the business refer to as _clues_.  Not to rob you of fresh prey, VM, but...Janice, seriously.  Adjust your debating fervor accordingly.
2)I should hope your Irish accent sounds more Irish than what VM wrote, because what he wrote was clearly intended to be _Scottish_.  Are you an American?

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## Janice McNay

I am an Irish woman and I now live in US

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## JB

VM, no matter how many times I read your posts, I still can't find any scientific truth or fact to your uneducated version of physiology. A good looking healthy woman of 30 is still 30. Her bones, tissues, ovarys and uterus are 30, not 20. If she gets pregnant at 30 she's using a 30 year old egg. No amount of exercise or carrot juice will make that egg 20 and there is no way to slow the aging of the eggs. You can look at her and think she looks younger than 20, but when she goes to the surgery her insides look 30.
And no matter how hard you try to convince yourself that you aren't aging, when you fall off your high horse and end up in the morgue, the forensic pathologist will open your gut and find a 45 year old. (except when he saws open your skull he will find the brain of a 16 year old)

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## JB

Also VM, when I get home next week and tell my Moscow girlfriends that they are not engaged to be married because it doesn't exist in Russia, they will want an explanation. So what do you suggest they call this time of buying rings and hiring caterers?  ::

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## JB

Looks like a lot of those "progressive people" who don't get STDs are turning up HIV positive.   www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/11/15/013.html

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## JJ

> I have asked - my friend is a gynecologist. Here's what he said. It's not about age at all, only stupid people would say so. It's about the fitness of the woman's organism. Consider this: many centuries ago people's life expectancy was much lower,  30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds.....
> ...........................
> .....in their early thirties.

 If he said so, I wouldn't trust my wife to such a "gynecologist". I could criticize a lot of BS he said (for example about "the optimal child bearing age is later in life than it used to be" - the species Homo Sapiens has no changes last 50000 years, so this statement has no sence) but I won't. Just ask him to read this article of the World Health Organization http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/EM ... vanced.htm they say there that "The optimal childbearing age is 20–25 years" and "The risk of bearing a child with certain chromosomal disorders increases as women age. The most common of these disorders is Down syndrome." It has no connection to "the fitness of the woman's organism" it depends on age only.

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## VendingMachine

> Also VM, when I get home next week and tell my Moscow girlfriends that they are not engaged to be married because it doesn't exist in Russia, they will want an explanation. So what do you suggest they call this time of buying rings and hiring caterers?

 It's not called "engagement" in Russian, it's called приготовления к свадьбе while your Western engagement is usually referred to as помолвка - they use that term in the yellow press for, say, the British royalty, but Russian people talk about _приготовления к свадьбе_ and that's not the same thing even technically.

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## VendingMachine

> Originally Posted by VendingMachine  I have asked - my friend is a gynecologist. Here's what he said. It's not about age at all, only stupid people would say so. It's about the fitness of the woman's organism. Consider this: many centuries ago people's life expectancy was much lower,  30 year olds were considered to be very very old, like today's 80 year olds.....
> ...........................
> .....in their early thirties.   If he said so, I wouldn't trust my wife to such a "gynecologist". I could criticize a lot of BS he said (for example about "the optimal child bearing age is later in life than it used to be" - the species Homo Sapiens has no changes last 50000 years, so this statement has no sence) but I won't. Just ask him to read this article of the World Health Organization http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/EM ... vanced.htm they say there that "The optimal childbearing age is 20–25 years" and "The risk of bearing a child with certain chromosomal disorders increases as women age. The most common of these disorders is Down syndrome." It has no connection to "the fitness of the woman's organism" it depends on age only.

 For f@cks sake, here we go again... No offence, man, but it really pisses me off when a seamingly intelligent person can't follow a simple argument (I suppose you're only pretending to p*ss me) - I told ya once I told ya a hundred times, didn't I? - the figure of 25 is there just because 99% of those peasants are practically walking corpses at that age what with the booze and fags. It's not about the age itself, centuries ago it was another figure, all right?, it's about how quickly you wear your body out (and that goes for the egg, *JB* - a 30 y.o. egg with some women can be a lot healthier than that of your average peasant 18 y.o. and that's a fact, I've a lot of mates in the gynecological profession, including some of our top boffins, to back that up plus my own private observations - happy 30+ mums all around and no one's screaming bloody murder.)

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## VendingMachine

*Janice*
Re: our argument 
Scientists have discovered that there was once a time on Earth when 30 year olds had all the chronicle deseases of today's 80 year olds  and they wouldn't take part in hunts, etc. 18 year olds were considered middle aged then. This doesn't in any way shatter the view of human history at all. And by the way, all that knowledge, Janice, can be had from books virtually for free. I suggest you use them. Start by loaning some from the public library where you live.    

> By the way, my Irish accent is much better than your execrable satirization of it.

 Well, frankly, I didn't mean it to sound as if I was taking the p*ss or something, I only wanted to make you feel comfortable. Which part of Ireland are you from originally?

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## VendingMachine

> The most common of these disorders is Down syndrome." It has no connection to "the fitness of the woman's organism" it depends on age only.

  - age is but an indicator of how processes in your organism develop over time - there's a 'clock' age and a 'physiological' age - your 'clock' age is there to basically save you from going nuts, nothing else, because we, humans, are crap at handling eternity. The fact that a certain cell gets from A to B in terms of its condition is all about 'physiological' age and corresponds to different readings on the 'clock' age meter for different people. If it wasn't so I wouldn't be seeing so many happy couples where the woman gave birth to her first child in her late twenties to early thirties. Of course in the country where most of its peasant population snuffs it in their fifties it may indeed come as a shock to some. Hell, 99% of those peasants think that when you're 30 you're a goner. As for the human race not changing for the last 5000 years, that is only true chromosome-wise and no one's arguing about _that_, but that's doesn't contradict what I was saying recently regarding the 30 year olds of yore corresponding to the 80 year olds of today. 
Summing up, I must admit I am unpleasantly surprised that so many of you know sod all about such simple things - we were taught most of that stuff at primary school. But then it's not your fault, I suppose - most of you have never had the opportunity to benefit from our once glorious Soviet education system (once the best education system in the world), and as for you, JJ - shame on you, mate, you shouldn't have played truant through your biology classes. (I especially liked the stuff they taught us about reproduction and since ours was a special school we also had labs! Of course not all of it was fun - we would sometimes get routine tasks like 'furtilise a dissected frog', but our teacher was a woman of parts and the things we'd do to get an A...  ::  )  
Anyway, why isn't anyone congratulating me on my coming wedding? Do it before I change my mind.

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## JB

VM, since your high school biology class was a LONG time ago I'll cut you some slack about not remembering basic anatomy and physiology. But you should really read real scientific studies instead of the back of your health food and vitamin boxes. Also there is an internationally accepted process for conducting scientific research and your knowledge of a few "happy couples" doesn't meet the criteria for a study. And if eggs didn't age at a predictable rate then all those 35+ year old healthy women from all over the world wouldn't be paying invitro clinics thousands of dollars to implant them with donar eggs from younger women (along with the risk of trisomy 21(down's) and trisomy 18 old eggs have a lot of problems).
As for your dissertation on the effects of aging on women throughout history, it is so random and nonsensical that I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
VM, you and Ponce De Leon just won't face reality, there is NO FOUNTAIN of YOUTH!!   ::

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## JB

VM, all of my Russian girlfriends are fluent in English and want me to converse in English so they can learn all of the latest American terms and slang. When we discuss their upcoming marriage and preparations we call it "engaged". This simple little word covers the concept of both помолвка (betrothed) and приготовления к свадьбе (preparations for the wedding).

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## JB

VM, on your "engagement"......... 
Congradulations on finding the most masochistic female on the planet!  ::

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## VendingMachine

> Congradulations on finding the most masochistic female on the planet!

 Go to hell JB. I will not have you say bad things about my fiancee.   

> When we discuss their upcoming marriage and preparations we call it "engaged". This simple little word covers the concept of both помолвка (betrothed) and приготовления к свадьбе (preparations for the wedding).

 Thing is - and its high time you understood this - there's no tradition of betrothal in Russia. As I've already told you, betrothal translated as помолвка is only used about Western couples especially by the yellow press - it has no counterpart in the Russian tradition whatsoever. The reason they say "engaged" is because our ways are incompatible and the best you can do to avoid lengthy explanations is bugger that difference and pretend the foreign term applied. (Just goes to show how 'well' you know our culture.)   

> VM, all of my Russian girlfriends are fluent in English and want me to converse in English so they can learn all of the latest American terms and slang

 What kind of slang would a middle-aged woman know and actively use I wonder...    

> VM, you and Ponce De Leon just won't face reality, there is NO FOUNTAIN of YOUTH!

 JB, can you at all follow my posts? At no point did I talk about a "fountain of youth" - all I did say was that you SHOULDN'T URINATE INTO THE POND LIFE GAVE YOU. 
As for my 'studies' as you called them - just stick to pulling peasant babies with a pair of tongs, will ya - call me a male chauvinist pig but I don't discuss science with midwives. 
P.S. And as for those clinics they are just good businesses. I've seen good businessmen with a great gift of the gab who could sell sand to bedouins in bloody Sahara.
You know, when I was born some 'learned midwives', who had better have stuck to their knitting, told my mum I'd never be able to walk - not only did I begin to walk when most babies do, but I also became a pretty good crosscountry runner at high school.

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## JB

Moscow is a BIG international city with a rapidly changing culture and the times are changing old man. The old Russian traditions are morphing as fast as the fashions. English words, phrases and concepts are used daily. Conversation, TV, radio and advertisements are all using this and the young and modern Russians all understand perfectly. (My 70yr old Russian aunt on the other hand complains that she can't understand any of it).
Now perhaps in smaller cities this isn't the case. But since My friends and I live in Moscow we speak a modern combo of English and Russian mixed with English.
I will be glad to discuss science with you when you can read and understand it. But since your science education is a 30yr old faint memory from high school it will take you a while to catch up to my medical education at 3 of the world's most renowned University Medical Centers.

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## VendingMachine

> Moscow is a BIG international city with a rapidly changing culture and the times are changing old man.

 Who's this old man you're talking about? How are the times changing him? Punctuation, JB. Казнить нельзя помиловать...   

> The old Russian traditions are morphing as fast as the fashions. English words, phrases and concepts are used daily. Conversation, TV, radio and advertisements are all using this and the young and modern Russians all understand perfectly.

 That's how it was in the 60s - in this day and age, however, most hippies are dead along with their ugly Russian-English creole and the majority of Russians gravitate (again) towards all things nice and Slavic. A few English ads here and there are the final throws of agony of the English language on our soil.   

> (My 70yr old Russian aunt on the other hand complains that she can't understand any of it).

 I bet she could speak in a way that you wouldn't understand a single word of - and that would be pure Slavic.    

> Now perhaps in smaller cities this isn't the case. But since My friends and I live in Moscow we speak a modern combo of English and Russian mixed with English.

 _Ловлю тебя на слове_ - give us a few examples of this imaginary dialect of yours, could you?   

> I will be glad to discuss science with you when you can read and understand it. But since your science education is a 30yr old faint memory from high school it will take you a while to catch up to my medical education at 3 of the world's most renowned University Medical Centers.

 Nothing but hot air and personal insults. And how come the learned don is only a bloody midwife then? *Я плакаль*... 
P.S. JB, do you realise that because of you three bright but poor young boys or girls didn't get a place?

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## BJ

Blimey, I go away for a while and what do I find - VM is going to get married. What next - Dogboy as President, Lindsay as Secretary of State?
Congratulations VM. I hope you and your wife to be will be very happy. Of course I am heart-broken as will be many members of this forum now one of the most eligible batchelors has been snapped up. It is so rare that someone with such an elegant turn of phrase, amusing wit and charming personality comes along. We should have known you'd be betrothed before long. Is DDT taken?

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## DDT

Even though I am a most beautiful man ....and brutaly handsome, I remain unattached due to my commitment to world peace and the brother and sisterhood of humankind. 
And I also, take offence at your remark that insinuates that I would be second choice after the venerable Mr. VM or for that matter anyone else. You see, it is well known, in society circles, that I have recently had to hire small group of assistants  to help clear a path through the gaggle of young ladies who congregate in the lobby downstairs waiting to catch a glimpse of me as I leave my penthouse abode.

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## BJ

How can I make it up to you DDT? ( I apologise for being fickle, VM but that's women for you- the mere suggestion of a brute and a penthouse has made me go weak at the knees - or could that be my arthritis?)

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## JB

Sorry VM, but I've no more time to continue this silly discussion. My plane leaves in the morning and I have a lot of packing to finish. 
And as for your BS on the state of modern Moscow culture, well old guys that don't get out of the house much can't be expected to know what's going on.   ::  
I am not a midwife and have never claimed to be. I am a Registered Nurse/ Obstetrics and Gynecology specialist. I have been involved in many research programs conducted by international specialists in OB, GYN, and Neonatal health, that have resulted in major changes and life saving improvements in health care. I will also be working in this area in Russia in the near future. 
How is it that after all your comments about your hobby of "shagging" so many females that you are suddenly getting married? And how did you find a girl that wants to marry a man who refers to women as "pussys galore"?

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## BJ

Lighten up JB. You keep rising to the bait. You're FEEDING him. You outrank him in so many ways but he's so full of self-satisfied importance you can NEVER win, in his eyes anyway. Accept VM for what he is and laugh with him and at him.

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## JB

Don't worry BJ, I just use VM for entertainment when I'm bored  ::  . I also laugh everytime I read his fantasies about Russia. But I have to catch a plane in 9 hours and won't have the time to play while in Moscow. So maybe he'll find another person to joust with and keep this forum lively!

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## VendingMachine

> My plane leaves in the morning and I have a lot of packing to finish.

 Always pack in advance, scout.   

> And as for your BS on the state of modern Moscow culture, well old guys that don't get out of the house much can't be expected to know what's going on.

 Yeah, typical of you, innit. Some time ago I asked you to translate something for me which would have tested your command of Russian and exposed you as a lier, now it's a similar situation - I asked you to give an example of this new generation "Russian English slang" thing that's allegedly all the hype in today's Moscow - one short sentence would have sufficed - and surely someone like you who's got it all sorted would have come up with something better than this weak excuse of yours of having to catch a plane. You didn't have time to write one short sentence, yet you banged out a full-blown post instead. _Please observe this, ladies and gentlemen, this woman never backs up her claims - she told a lie and is now conviniently "busy packing"._. Thanks, JB, a better proof I could not have wished for.   

> I am not a midwife and have never claimed to be. I am a Registered Nurse/ Obstetrics and Gynecology specialist. I have been involved in many research programs conducted by international specialists in OB, GYN, and Neonatal health,

  Did you mean Neanderthal health perchance? And in the quiet words of Turkish, if you're not a midwife you **** well should be.   

> ...that have resulted in major changes and life saving improvements in health care.

  Sure. And Baron Muenchhausen was a famous traveller. He was also a notorious lier. Brag brag brag brag brag brag brag...   

> I will also be working in this area in Russia in the near future.

 Of course you will. And on that day Satan will be skating to work.   

> How is it that after all your comments about your hobby of "shagging" so many females that you are suddenly getting married? And how did you find a girl that wants to marry a man who refers to women as "pussys galore"?

 I thought you didn't wish to continue with this discussion:  

> Sorry VM, but I've no more time to continue this silly discussion

 I wouldn't be the master of suspence if I told you everything right away. Sorry, gal, can't just tell you everything, gotta keep you coming back for more. We'll be returning to this subject in the near future. Right after you come back from that "Moscow" of yours. Bwahahahahahah...

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## JB

Come back from Moscow? Dear VM I live in Moscow. I arrived home  on the 21st and am currently enjoying this great city!

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## VendingMachine

> Come back from Moscow? Dear VM I live in Moscow.

 You would be home if Moscow was your home, since it's not, you're only paying it a flying visit (in your dreams, of course, since you've never, not once, have given me a single authentic proof that you've been to Moscow.) Something's telling me that even Moscow would have achoo'd you out in a matter of seconds. You know what they say about Moscow? _Moskva slezam ne verit._ Know what that means? Know who said that and why? How do _you_ connect to that phrase? Would you like to talk about it?   

> ...and am currently enjoying this great city!

 Oh how stupid this is, trying to flatter me by singing sycofantic odes to this, erm, well, city. (Rhetorical) question is, would Moscow be enjoying you, JB...

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## Линдзи

> You know what they say about Moscow? _Moskva slezam ne verit._ Know what that means?

 It means that that stupid whiny chicks named Katia are desperate to snag a man?

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## waxwing

Remarkably accurate deduction.
After extensive double-blind randomised trials I can confirm that, yes, stupid whiny chicks named Katia are indeed desperate to snag a man with confidence at 3 standard deviations.

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## JB

That movie was a total snooze. As for proof of my being in Moscow, I think the Administrator can tell where everyone is writing from.

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## VendingMachine

> As for proof of my being in Moscow, I think the Administrator can tell where everyone is writing from.

 Oh really? What the admin can tell is what IP the post came from, however, he can't prove that the person in that chair in front of that PC with that particular IP was you. You may have asked someone from Moscow to post your messages for you. You send him/her your messages via ICQ or MSN or Jabber or via email, whatever, and they post them here. I once needed to convince someone I was posting from Pretoria at a South African forum while in reality I was living in Copenhagen at the time. However, I had some e-pals in Pretoria. Can you guess what I did? I'm sorry, you're not in Moscow at the moment. In fact, JB, you've never been to Moscow.

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## VendingMachine

> It means that that stupid whiny chicks named Katia are desperate to snag a man?

 No my dear, that saying goes way back before that film was produced and it means roughly the same as "osov*ye*liye ne tz*y*dyat po kirzov*o*mu k*o*li v*o*chni ne zm*o*gayut'" - that's what I was driving at, not that IMHO silly film.

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## BJ

VM, I'm really worried about you. Have you been taking your medication?

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## VendingMachine

> VM, I'm really worried about you. Have you been taking your medication?

 What medication? I'm on no medication. I'm fighting fit, JB.

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## BJ

But clearly dyslexic. Unlike JB I don't claim to be living in Moscow just dreary Yorkshire. Having a good rant now and again obviously keeps you in fine fettle, VM. I prefer other forms of exercise.

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## VendingMachine

> But clearly dyslexic.

 As a matter of fact I am dyslexic. And for someone with as bad a case of dyslexia as mine I'm coping rather well.    

> Unlike JB I don't claim to be living in Moscow just dreary Yorkshire. Having a good rant now and again obviously keeps you in fine fettle, VM. I prefer other forms of exercise.

 Aye, it does. And wot other forms might tha be talkin' about? I knaws all yer dirty tricks yer arch nazzards get up to down t'pit. Don't tha try to pull t'wool over ma eyes, lad - I's Yorksire too.

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## JB

WOW! I never even thought about getting friends in other countries to write fake postings for me!  ::   Seems like a lot of work though.... So I guess those who don't believe I'm in Moscow will just have to take my word for it , or maybe have another person meet me at Cafe Max (Novoslobodskaya) where I'm posting from.

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## joysof

> Cafe Max (Novoslobodskaya)

 Takes me back, that does. Does the surly brunette with the outstanding pout still work there, JB? Could you scowl at her from me?

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## JB

Which one?  ::

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## VendingMachine

> WOW! I never even thought about getting friends in other countries to write fake postings for me!

 This line of defence doesn't really work with us. Sorry.   

> So I guess those who don't believe I'm in Moscow will just have to take my word for it , or maybe have another person meet me at Cafe Max (Novoslobodskaya) where I'm posting from.

 And how will those who come to Cafe Max know that the crazy foreigner they meet is actually you, and not your friend/agent, huh? You've lived a lie all these years, so why should we trust you? Give me one reason why we should.

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## BJ

You were wasted in the police VM. With your talents you should have been in the FSB - or maybe you are?

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## chaika

JB- I stayed near the Novoslobodskaya metro when I was there last year for a month. Is that Cafe Max the one on the second floor, across the street from the metro? I went there a couple of times. I never did make it into Ruby Tuesday's, though.

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## JB

Yes, 2nd floor across from metro. Stairs are next to the 1st floor flower stand.

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