# Forum About Russia Politics  Another one bites the dust...

## Бармалей

Ужасно...  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061007/ap_ ... ist_killed

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## Rtyom

Как страшно жить...

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## kalinka_vinnie

Русские, объясните, пожалуйста, почему всех честных людей в России убывают.  Что происходит у вас???

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## Chuvak

> Русские, объясните, пожалуйста, почему всех честных людей в России убывают.  Что происходит у вас???

 There are no honest people at all in any country !!!  ::

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## gRomoZeka

Почему же всех? Думаю, еще немало честных людей осталось живых и здоровых.   ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Почему же всех? Думаю, еще немало честных людей осталось живых и здоровых.

  ну не могут всех убывать сразу и одновременно, ты подожди годик и посмотрим сколько ещё осталось...   ::

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## Chuvak

> Originally Posted by gRomoZeka  Почему же всех? Думаю, еще немало честных людей осталось живых и здоровых.      ну не могут всех убывать сразу и одновременно, ты подожди годик и посмотрим сколько ещё осталось...

 Ну не могут всех убить сразу (одновременно), ты подожди годик и посмотрим сколько еще останется

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## Ramil

> Русские, объясните, пожалуйста, почему всех честных людей в России убивают.  Что происходит у вас???

 О покойниках надо говорить либо хорошо, либо никак. Я ничего говорить не буду. 
Царствие небесное, рабе божьей Анне.  ::

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## DagothWarez

> О покойниках надо говорить либо хорошо, либо никак. Я ничего говорить не буду.|

 Я тоже.

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## Guin

> О покойниках надо говорить либо хорошо, либо никак. Я ничего говорить не буду.

 И я лучше  помолчу...

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## Lampada

Ужас!  Пусть земля ей будет пухом.

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## Lampada

Ещё одна смелая женщина Wafa Sultan:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Negt6IzxPTo&eurl=

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## basurero

Какая сумасшедшая страна.   ::

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## Dogboy182

I can't believe people actually feel bad for her. If anything she was hurting more than helping. What does turning people against the military and against the war help? Killing, abducting, torturing of civilians ins't right/ But its war, and a war that Russia is struggling to win. 
By exposing all these "atrocoties" she is just turning the public opinion away from the war. She might as well write a "FREE CHECHNYA OF OCCUPIERS" sign and wear it around. 
I don't feel bad for her at all. Did she also write about how the cells are too small, and the meals not warm enough in Guantanomo bay? Or how maybe Nur- Pashi Kulayev, The only hostage taker to survive inside the beslan school, and who ALSO served in the Russian Army prior to becoming a lowlife dirtbag, Should be set free because he surendered instead of fighting to the death. 
Screw that and the soft hippy crap. Let me share a story with you that one of my teachers told me...  
One of my Pashtu teachers, is from Nangerhar Afghanistan and about 28 years old. She told our class stories, about how when she was 8, 9, 10 years old, she and her family used to bring water, food, supplies to the Mujahadin fighters. She said after school her mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, uncle, aunts, everyone... would make a huge dinner and her and her brother would hike off into the woods and deliver the food to the Mujahadin, and then sneak back after dark. 
Then one day she said she came home from school and the Russians were at her house. They shot her grandma and grandpa and took one of her uncles. 
She was fishing for sympathy... but wouldn't get any from me. 
She had just spent 10 minutes telling us about how everyone in the village knew where the fighters were, and helped them by supplying and feeding them. Then you try and complain that the Russians killed your family. 
Well Wah wah wah cry me a river. If you play with fire you're gunna get burned. 
Now this is just 1 story, and I know every family has a diffrent story. And I know not all families were as guilty as hers. But I think they kinds had it comming. 
The same goes for civilians in Chechnya. If you feed, supply, clothe, or help/ aid in any way somebody who's whole goal in life is to kill Russians, Americans, Britts, whoever... Then you are just as guilty as the perpetrators themselves. We even have a law about this in America, called. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION. If you drive the car for a bank robber, you are just as guilty as the guy who had the gun. 
Now I'm sorry for the people whos lives were truly ruined by bad judegment/ bad leadership of Russian military officers. But you know what, I garuntee not every single civilian in chechnya is/was as innocent as they seem. 
Anyone ever seen the movie Блокпост? How about Грозовые ворота?? Perfect examples of how chechen civilians aid terrorists. And they too deserve to be punished. 
So im not going to cry for this reporter who most likely did more harm than good. Good riddance to her.

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## din

so dogboy, I guess you'd be firmly in the british camp if you were around during the american revolution?  
hang around free republic much?

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## Бармалей

> So im not going to cry for this reporter who most likely did more harm than good. Good riddance to her.

 If you can't distinguish between fighting in a warzone and ambushing a woman in an elevator and murdering her in cold blood, then damn. Just damn. I'll be the first to tell you that I didn't necessarily find her to be the most unbiased of people or without fault. She was hardly your conventional "neutral observer" in her coverage. But to say "good riddance" to someone simply because of what they write is really idiotic. My reason for opening this post wasn't to promote her views or debate Chechnya. Like I said, I have issues with that. But the calculated murder of someone who simply writes unpopular things is disturbing, both for the act itself and for the fact that something like that can happen. Something is truly rotten in the state of Russia...

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## Dogboy182

> so dogboy, I guess you'd be firmly in the british camp if you were around during the american revolution?  
> hang around free republic much?

 
What does that even mean? 
I suppose you're reffering to Chechnyas struggle to become free from Russia. How am i supposed to answer such a hypothetical question like that? Wow what an intelligent thing to ask. Hey, Mr. Im so smart with my Very intriguing  questions, Riddle me this... 
So you go ahead and grant Chechnya Independance, Then Dagestan, Then Tatartsan. Then how about you give Vladivostok back to the Chinese, and Alaska back the US, and just keep giving land away that is rightfully Russia's untill all thats left is Moscow and a single rail line to St. Petersburg, surrounded by 70 some odd free republics. Yea sounds like a good plan. 
The American Revolution was entirely diffrent anyways. The British never OWNED America. America was the homeland of many Frnech immgrants, as well as British, Spanish... etc. All of which had Army forts and interests here. The war against the British has almost nothing in common with the war in Chechya.   

> If you can't distinguish between fighting in a warzone and ambushing a woman in an elevator and murdering her in cold blood, then damn. Just damn. I'll be the first to tell you that I didn't necessarily find her to be the most unbiased of people or without fault. She was hardly your conventional "neutral observer" in her coverage. But to say "good riddance" to someone simply because of what they write is really idiotic. My reason for opening this post wasn't to promote her views or debate Chechnya. Like I said, I have issues with that. But the calculated murder of someone who simply writes unpopular things is disturbing, both for the act itself and for the fact that something like that can happen. Something is truly rotten in the state of Russia...

 I didn't say she deserved to die either. I said she simply had it comming... And when you write about topics so controversial in a growing, changing country like Russia. Well, play with fire, get burned. 
Simple as that.

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## din

> Originally Posted by din  so dogboy, I guess you'd be firmly in the british camp if you were around during the american revolution?  
> hang around free republic much?   
> What does that even mean?     
> 			
> 				If you can't distinguish between fighting in a warzone and ambushing a woman in an elevator and murdering her in cold blood, then damn. Just damn. I'll be the first to tell you that I didn't necessarily find her to be the most unbiased of people or without fault. She was hardly your conventional "neutral observer" in her coverage. But to say "good riddance" to someone simply because of what they write is really idiotic. My reason for opening this post wasn't to promote her views or debate Chechnya. Like I said, I have issues with that. But the calculated murder of someone who simply writes unpopular things is disturbing, both for the act itself and for the fact that something like that can happen. Something is truly rotten in the state of Russia...
> 			
> 		  I didn't say she deserved to die either. I said she simply had it comming... And when you write about topics so controversial in a growing, changing country like Russia. Well, play with fire, get burned. 
> Simple as that.

 you're basically saying that if someone doesn't agree with the status quo, and they speak up about it, they should be punished by the state.  you're saying that the means justify the ends as long as the status quo remains intact.  youi're trying to argue that things are black and white and that's never been the case.   would you like me to make it a little simpler?  I'm not sure I can, but I can try.

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## Dobry

I am not replying to any message... I'm just having thoughts. 
My thoughts return to _"V for Vendetta"_.  The power of thoughts. 
I cry for her.  I hate violence of any and every form. 
The lessons of Christ, Ghandi, Kung, Bonhoeffer, Wesley, and many others... were good, and relevant, and most importantly peaceful, with no violence... free thought, free speech, and the peaceful exchange of ideas for all of us to have better lives... and all of them devoted their lives to this idea. 
And my visa will probably be revoked for saying this.    ::

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## Dogboy182

> Originally Posted by Dogboy182        Originally Posted by din  so dogboy, I guess you'd be firmly in the british camp if you were around during the american revolution?  
> hang around free republic much?   
> What does that even mean?     
> 			
> 				If you can't distinguish between fighting in a warzone and ambushing a woman in an elevator and murdering her in cold blood, then damn. Just damn. I'll be the first to tell you that I didn't necessarily find her to be the most unbiased of people or without fault. She was hardly your conventional "neutral observer" in her coverage. But to say "good riddance" to someone simply because of what they write is really idiotic. My reason for opening this post wasn't to promote her views or debate Chechnya. Like I said, I have issues with that. But the calculated murder of someone who simply writes unpopular things is disturbing, both for the act itself and for the fact that something like that can happen. Something is truly rotten in the state of Russia...
> 			
> 		  I didn't say she deserved to die either. I said she simply had it comming... And when you write about topics so controversial in a growing, changing country like Russia. Well, play with fire, get burned. 
> Simple as that.   you're basically saying that if someone doesn't agree with the status quo, and they speak up about it, they should be punished by the state.  you're saying that the means justify the ends as long as the status quo remains intact.  youi're trying to argue that things are black and white and that's never been the case.   would you like me to make it a little simpler?  I'm not sure I can, but I can try.

 You accuse me of making it black and white, but put words in my mouth? Again, please show me where I said "Because of beliefs she deserved to die" Where did I say "Down with free speach, she needed to be punished by the state".  
I said, Her opinion wasn't popular and she had it comming!  And for this you might as well have called me a communist. You obviously don't even know what you're talking about, seeing as you dropped the revolutionary war argument and try to label me as the one who has labeled. Heres another idea Mr. riddler. How about you just stop talking untill you can post two things that coincide with each other or show some facts to back it up. 
She was unpopular, she had enemies, she got killed. It happens, I say again, repeat, I say again... Maybe you don't understand english that well (seeing as you're probably American its most likely the case. Это она заслужила *сама!* Понятно? выбрала свой путь и это была ведь ей дорога... Всё, конец связи.

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## DDT

Yay Dogboy! If you was a bitch dog I would kiss you! 
You hit the nail right on the head with your post. ::   
 I think that this reporter was treading on thin ice that finally gave way under her.

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## Dogboy182

> Yay Dogboy! If you was a bitch dog I would kiss you! 
> You hit the nail right on the head with your post.  
>  I think that this reporter was treading on thin ice that finally gave way under her.

 Why thank you. Though, I'm not making excuses for anybody. If I went around promoting Anti Steve Erwin campaigns and talked about how horrible of a guy he was and that I'm glad he's dead, I'm gunna piss a lot of people off. And if someone whacked me for it, Well then its my fault. I earned it. 
I just don't get why people are so surprised.

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## Dobry

A bunch, 
No, not surprised... 
...but death is death... and that's all there is.  I've seen people die.  No honor, no glory, no justification... only death. 
I just don't like seeing, hearing, reading of people killed, again and again, both sides... over ideas, thoughts.  Her death was not justified, in my opinion.  Surprised?  No.      ::   
Was her death real?  Yes, I understand it from your point of view.  But her death was wrong.  She is dead now, and she is no longer allowed a dissenting voice.   
You are. 
Yes... I grieve for her, and her family. 
I am going to back-off ever so slightly, because I understand both sides very well.  I have seen nor heard any information that this killing or murder, was justified... or maybe from a burglar or thief... or whether this  a random action from a criminal.  The news stated that the cause/reason for the killing was not clear. 
But yes, I'm North American... and I want to believe that there are certain human traits that are "universal"... which includes preservation of human life.   
I don't understand why such reality exists... but I'm listening. 
Dobry

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## gRomoZeka

> you're basically saying that if someone doesn't agree with the status quo, and they speak up about it, they should be *punished by the state*...

 Isn't it biased in some way to be sure without any proofs that she was killed by the *state*?
Well, probably she was, but in that case I don't think her articles were the only reason.
In modern Russia there is no need in extraordinary bravery or honesty to write or say the things she wrote and said. Really. Basicaly she said almost something of common knowledge (at least I think it's well-known that during guerrilla warfare civilians are often hurt).

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## kalinka_vinnie

Doggie, 
So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:   

> I can't believe people actually feel bad for her. If anything she was hurting more than helping. What does turning people against the military and against the war help? Killing, abducting, torturing of civilians ins't right/ But its war, and a war that Russia is struggling to win...
> ...
> I don't feel bad for her at all...
> ...
> So im not going to cry for this reporter who most likely did more harm than good. Good riddance to her...

 I know you wrote that about a Russian war, but your statements are general in nature and I can't possibly imagine you think any differently for the US war. 
So in your mind we should probably callously murder most democrats, including both Clintons, as well as the majority, if not all, of journalists and TV-reporters worldwide? Just because they publicly dissent the war in Iraq? 
Now if we step back into the 21st century for a while, there are good reasons why there should be dissenting journalists exposing truth about military operations, in any democratic and free country. 
Firstly, in your mind Abu Grahib should have been covered up and never let out in the public, right? Because it's a war and these things happens. NO. The military is not a safe haven for sick **cks to go around and feed their sick fantasies! The military is supposed to be our finest, our bravest and our greatest men and women fighting for our values. Uh-huh, we see what great values these people are bringing, and only through public uproar can we turn the military back into what it should be, the example of the nation. 
Secondly, the public and the individual have every single right in the world to dissent against a war they feel is unjust, unnessecary and immoral. If Bush decided tomorrow to invade England because of suspected WMDs there, you'll be all in favor right? Because you got to support the troops! That is a load of puppy poo, my friend. If you don't agree with a war you should speak out against it, and I am getting pretty tired of people exclaiming that those people are un-patriotic unamerican and generally a homosexual leftie. Support the troops, I agree, after all they are not to blame for the war, but be critical of the government at all times!

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## Bisquit

Как человека ее, конечно, жалко, но как журналиста - ничуть.

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## Dogboy182

> Doggie, 
> So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:

 
DUDE I NEVER said she DESERVED IT. Even in my quote that "proves" it doesnt prove anything! It just reiterates what I already said, and admitted to. 
And your argument is flawed too. First of all, I am againt the Iraq war. So is about 75% of the American public. That is our right as American citizens.  
Now if someone of a group of people started going around (Actually they do, we get protested outside our base all the time) and started saying how American Soldiers were just babykillers, they target civilians in Iraq/Afghanistnan, they are all gunna burn in hell. Whatever. If they got killed, WELL THEN OK! For the last time. They had it comming. 
There is a diffrence between "Deserving to be punished" for something, and to have "An obvious demise" looming in y our future. 
This lady was in a dangerous business in an unstable country. It was bound to happen. She didn't deserve it, but it happend. I'm not suprised, and frankly, I don't really care. Hopefully at least 1 scared soldier who doesn't trust his commander and is forced to do things he doesnt want to do everyday can sleep easier at night knowing this chick isn't going to try and put him in jail for following orders. 
Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.  
And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?

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## Dobry

> Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.  
> And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?

 Yes, I was... yes I have an idea what it's like... and no, I don't think you said she deserved it.  No worry.   
It was an unfortunate, unjustified death... but death is death, we mourn, and we move on.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Doggie, 
> So you're saying that everone in America who dissents with the Iraq war, and publically speak about it, deserve death because of demoralization of the troops? I know these aren't your exact words, but that is definitely what you are thinking. Here are your quotes to prove it:   
> DUDE I NEVER said she DESERVED IT. Even in my quote that "proves" it doesnt prove anything! It just reiterates what I already said, and admitted to. 
> And your argument is flawed too. First of all, I am againt the Iraq war. So is about 75% of the American public. That is our right as American citizens.  
> Now if someone of a group of people started going around (Actually they do, we get protested outside our base all the time) and started saying how American Soldiers were just babykillers, they target civilians in Iraq/Afghanistnan, they are all gunna burn in hell. Whatever. If they got killed, WELL THEN OK! For the last time. They had it comming. 
> There is a diffrence between "Deserving to be punished" for something, and to have "An obvious demise" looming in y our future. 
> This lady was in a dangerous business in an unstable country. It was bound to happen. She didn't deserve it, but it happend. I'm not suprised, and frankly, I don't really care. Hopefully at least 1 scared soldier who doesn't trust his commander and is forced to do things he doesnt want to do everyday can sleep easier at night knowing this chick isn't going to try and put him in jail for following orders. 
> Is anyone else here in the military? No shutup then. You don't have any idea what its like.  
> And again, please show me where I said she deserved it... because you know everyone has still failed to prove any points worthwhile. Whos next?

 Maybe I am reading too much into your words, but when you say "good riddance", it certainly doesn't givet the impression that you don't care. But the point is that some of these soldiers aren't doing this kind of stuff on orders of their superiors,and  I can't see why Russian soldiers are any better than the Americans. Heck, the Russian soldiers even used to sell guns to the Chechens! Hold people accountable for their actions!

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## DDT

Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood. 
 We don't know the full story of this woman but it was a dangerous game she was playing. It is possible  that her death may even  save lives at some point in the future, who knows. I don't know anough about the full situation "to get all worked up" over her.

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## kalinka_vinnie

I am not more 'worked up' about this murder than other contract killings in Russia. I was more sad for the banker that got gunned down. It just seems like any person trying to stem corruption or expose the truth in Russia get callously murdered. Its despicable and must stop!

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## DagothWarez

Я думаю наиболее вероятны две причины, по которой ее могли убить. 
Первый вариант – что ее замочил кто-то кому она дорогу перешла.
Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине. На действия спецслужб “иностранных друзей” не похоже – слишком грязная работа.
В крайнем случае, деньги с “товарищами по борьбе” не поделила.

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## gRomoZeka

> Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине.

 +1 
True. Government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but opposition does.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by DagothWarez  Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине.   +1 
> True. The government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but the opposition does.

 Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

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## gRomoZeka

> True. The government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but the opposition does.

 Thanks.

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## DagothWarez

> Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

 Ну например можно было бы не прятать в Англии Бориса Абрамовича с Закаевым. Не выделять деньги на подрывную деятельность в России, а то всегда, знаешь ли, такой соблазн их поделить. 
Я вот что-то не помню, чтобы Путин кого-то хоть пальцем тронул, невзирая на то сколько помоев на него вылили. 
Не надо лодку раскачивать. Ну его на фиг. Спокойствие нужно и тишина и отсутствие постоянного давления на Россию.

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## Propp

1) http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/01/05/29/2996/220586.html 
2)
"Liberty, the freedom of speech, democracy, as well as national interests, moral rules and independance" -- all this has LONG ago became a small change in the Big Politics, and people who don't get it should either sit at home, tending their own business ie watching movies, reading books, drinking, smoking, f...ing, working or stealing, helping or avoiding police etc, OR take into account what sometimes happens when you poke your nose in different things and be prepared to it. I personally don't take an active interest in politics, but I've read that even many journalists from so called "democratic camp" considered this woman too naive, straightforward and sometimes even "crazy".
I knew once a woman (very funny woman indeed, once she tried to organize illegal brothels in Moscow) who was the first wife of notorious journalist Babitsky, who working on radio Liberty "boldly critisized the ruling regime". She told me that he earnestly admitted that he decided to work for "liberal west" because they offered him more money than "totalitarian east"; he would work for another side, but on the second thought he came to conclusion that West would always pay more, because in possible future USA and Europe will have more funds than Russia. So he become "a voice of freedom".
There are several versions of this murder, one of them concerning Chechen trace (perhaps she wrote something about one clan, or better say TRIBE of those "innocent free-loving democratic" people, that insulted another tribe -- may be pro-Puting one,  ruling now, it is freely admitted here -- and the second one concerning the possible provocation with the purpose of making grounds for the West to interfere with future president elections in Russia under pretext of "undemocrartic trends".
Or may be she, being naive, just didn't share cash with whom it should be shared.
Anyway, it is a horrible murder, but being such, I don't think it should be a cause for "undemocratic horrible Russia" whining.

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## laxxy

> Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.

 Well, but sometimes this IS right. And, more importantly, it puts the pressure on the soldiers to actually DO things the right way -- even when it seems less efficient to them. Same applies to the US in Iraq, for example.   

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.   Ну например можно было бы не прятать в Англии Бориса Абрамовича с Закаевым.

 А их никто и не прячет -- они живут себе как свободные люди, с доказательствами же Путин позорно облажался  ::    

> Я вот что-то не помню, чтобы Путин кого-то хоть пальцем тронул, невзирая на то сколько помоев на него вылили.

 It's a bit too early for you to know about something like that  ::  although the whole story with building explosions is indeed quite fishy. 
Впрочем винить режим в данном убийстве вряд ли стоит имхо. Скорее всего тут надо смотреть чем она конкретно сейчас занималась.

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## Dogboy182

> Why are you all beating up on the Dog? It is a well known fact that many journalists actively try to undermine their own governments. Right or wrong this jepardizes the lives of their own soldiers, their own flesh and blood.  
> We don't know the full story of this woman but it was a dangerous game she was playing. It is possible that her death may even save lives at some point in the future, who knows. I don't know anough about the full situation "to get all worked up" over her.

 Thanks for the props. And the sanity.   

> Still, something must be done to stop these professional killings... no matter who is behind them.

 I don't see you getting all worked up about genocide in Africa, or human rights in Beloruss or N.Korea. What about evil scientists in CERN swtizerland trying to make a mini black whole that could potentially swallow the earth... Or even Russian mafia in America for that matter. 
People kill each other, People live, People die. When will hippies realize!? Recognize! Who knows who did it and why? Who cares? She died. OK get over man.

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## DagothWarez

> А их никто и не прячет -- они живут себе как свободные люди, с доказательствами же Путин позорно облажался

 Может Путин и облажался. Вернее в прокуратуре облажались. Возможно, так не самые умные люди и не вполне понимают, как надо заниматься подобными делами. Но уж чего-чего, а Борис Абрамович это просто легенда 90-х. Он сам и есть 90-е. Столько всего натворил, пробы негде ставить. 
Теперь конечно. Свободный человек.

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## Dobry

The evolution of this thread reminds of V's quote, from _V for Vendetta_... 
"_People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people._ " 
Sounds poetic at least.    ::   
Were we beating up on the Dog?  I think some of us disagreed with him, but most of us know his toughness, resilience and ability to stand his ground in an argument.   
He's one of the best posters on this forum, and I know he's got the scars to show from it. 
Several of us, including myself, disagreed with him in this thread.  
But Dog earned my respect a long time and many posts ago.  So I feel O.K. that I can disagree with him, and yet still buy him a beer later.

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## Dogboy182

And yea no one said that it was govt. orderd. But If it was then that's pretty sweet. Putin needs to flex his muscles more often. 
Long live the glorious leader!! Crush those who oppose him!! 
He can fly better than GW!  
And doesn't fight like a girl.  
Here is putin defending stalingrad from facist opressors!  
Armani and got nothing on the POOTY POOT!  
Who dares oppose him? They shall meet the same fate!

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## laxxy

> Originally Posted by laxxy  А их никто и не прячет -- они живут себе как свободные люди, с доказательствами же Путин позорно облажался    Может Путин и облажался. Вернее в прокуратуре облажались. Возможно, так не самые умные люди и не вполне понимают, как надо заниматься подобными делами. Но уж чего-чего, а Борис Абрамович это просто легенда 90-х. Он сам и есть 90-е. Столько всего натворил, пробы негде ставить. 
> Теперь конечно. Свободный человек.

 Оно конечно да. Но поскольку те кто остался ничем не лучше, а любое нормальное обвинение неизбежно вытянуло бы на свет божий и их дела, то не удивительно что такого обвинения и не было  ::  впрочем оно подозреваю и к лучшему, сам же про стабильность пишешь  ::

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## DagothWarez

> Оно конечно да. Но поскольку те кто остался ничем не лучше, а любое нормальное обвинение неизбежно вытянуло бы на свет божий и их дела, то не удивительно что такого обвинения и не было  впрочем оно подозреваю и к лучшему, сам же про стабильность пишешь

 Почему обвинения не прохиляли в суде я конечно не в курсе, делать мне больше нечего следить за всякой ерундой. Может ума не хватило, а может и какие другие причины. Тут тоже конечно братва осталась та еще. 
Но и уж конечно Боря никак не невинная жертва режима. Черт тот еще. С рогами и копытами.

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## laxxy

> Originally Posted by laxxy  Оно конечно да. Но поскольку те кто остался ничем не лучше, а любое нормальное обвинение неизбежно вытянуло бы на свет божий и их дела, то не удивительно что такого обвинения и не было  впрочем оно подозреваю и к лучшему, сам же про стабильность пишешь    Почему обвинения не прохиляли в суде я конечно не в курсе, делать мне больше нечего следить за всякой ерундой. Может ума не хватило, а может и какие другие причины. Тут тоже конечно братва осталась та еще. 
> Но и уж конечно Боря никак не невинная жертва режима. Черт тот еще. С рогами и копытами.

  ::   ::   ::   ::

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## ST

играешь в Ил-2, *Dogboy182*?   ::

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## DagothWarez

> Armani and got nothing on the POOTY POOT!  
> Who dares oppose him? They shall meet the same fate!

 Более того.
Путин очень нежен и добр. Любит мягкие игрушки.  
Он подходит для работы президентом такой большой страны, потому что его голова как луна способна заслонить собой пол России.   
У него есть классные очки НАСТОЯЩЕГО шпиона.  
Он умеет заразительно смеяться.  
Он единственный кто переспал с Кондолизой Райс.  
Путин хоть и дружит с мужчинами, но он не гомосек.

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## Бармалей

I like this one, personally: PUTIN JUDO HEADBUTT! http://www.kommersant.com/gallery.asp?i ... s_id=43734

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by DagothWarez  Второй – выборы на носу и “революционерам” (олигархам в изгнании) понадобилась “жертва режима”. Вроде Гонгадзе на Украине.   +1 
> True. Government doesn't gain anything from that murder, but opposition does.

 +1 
Больше всего мне это убийство напоминает создание очередного мученика в борьбе за "свободу и демократию". Жестокому режиму Путина и "кровавой гэбне" меньше всего нужна была её смерть.
Более того - это убийство вредит имиджу режима и не приносит никаких политических результатов. Независимо от того, что она могла "накопать", её бы просто тихо задвинули, а результаты журналисткого расследования объявили бы ложью и провокацией (повторяю - абсолютно всё равно, какими материалами она располагала, соответствовала ли эта информация действительности или была недостоверна - это не важно) важно другое - "кровавой гэбне" её смерть не нужна. Зато от её смерти много выигрывают оппоненты существующему режиму. А есть старый добрый вопрос: WHO GAINS FROM THE CRIME?

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## Dogboy182

> играешь в Ил-2, *Dogboy182*?

 
Каждый день!!! фобля! поверь мне!!!! Я люблю эту игру иза всех сил моего тела, души!! 
Я второй! Кто нибудь, уберите его от моего хвоста!!
- Второй, это четвёртый, подьтверждаю!!
- Второй, выпольняю! 
Это второй, я подбил его!!! Разрешите пасадку!
Второй - Это диспетчер. Пасадку подьтверждаю... следите за самалётамии на поласе... 
Я третьий... Разрешите пасадку!
Третьий - это диспетчер, пасадку не разрешаю, ухадите на второй круг... 
Это третьий, ухожу на следующий круг...  
Oh man! I love it =)))

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## Оля

> Я второй! Кто нибудь, уберите его от моего хвоста!!
> - Второй, это четвёртый, подьтверждаю!!
> - Второй, выпольняю! 
> Это второй, я подбил его!!! Разрешите пасадку!
> Второй - Это диспетчер. Пасадку подьтверждаю... следите за самалётамии на поласе... 
> Я третьий... Разрешите пасадку!
> Третьий - это диспетчер, пасадку не разрешаю, ухадите на второй круг... 
> Это третьий, ухожу на следующий круг...

 Это на каком языке?..

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Dogboy182  Я второй! Кто нибудь, уберите его от моего хвоста!!
> - Второй, это четвёртый, подьтверждаю!!
> - Второй, выпольняю! 
> Это второй, я подбил его!!! Разрешите пасадку!
> Второй - Это диспетчер. Пасадку подьтверждаю... следите за самалётамии на поласе... 
> Я третьий... Разрешите пасадку!
> Третьий - это диспетчер, пасадку не разрешаю, ухадите на второй круг... 
> Это третьий, ухожу на следующий круг...   Это на каком языке?..

 На пАцанском  ::

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## Scorpio

> Русские, объясните, пожалуйста, почему всех честных людей в России убывают.  Что происходит у вас???

 Калинка, вы хотели сказать "убивают"? 
Ну, во-первых, честных людей в России полно, и, на мой взгляд, их становится больше с каждым днем. 
Во-вторых, я бы, пожалуй, не стал бы употреблять слова "честность" и "Политковская" в одной фразе. Впрочем, это мое мнение. 
В-третьих, ответ на вопрос "Кто убил?" следует искать в вопросе "Кому выгодно?" 
Кто убил в сентябре 2000 г. украиского журналиста Георгия Гонгадзе, например? Непохоже, что для украинских властей от этого была какая-то выгода -- выгодно это было исключительно оппозиции во главе с Ющенко и Тимошенко. Нет ничего удивительного, что когда эта парочка пришла к власти, убийство никто не собирается раскрывать, а ключевые свидетели по этому делу совершают самоубийства (несколькими выстрелами в голову, да еще и предварительно переломав себе пальцы на руках). 
Кто убил ливанского политика Рафика аль-Харири? А кто получил выгоду от его смерти? США и Израиль, так мне кажется. 
Кто убил Политковскую (да еще и, как будто специально, в день рождения Путина) -- как вы думаете?

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## ST

*Оля*-это фразы из игры...   ::    *Dogboy182*-крут!  ::

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## Оля

> *Оля*-это фразы из игры...

 "подьтверждаю", "выпольняю", "третьий" - фразы из игры?   ::

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## gRomoZeka

> Каждый день!!! фобля! поверь мне!!!! Я люблю эту игру иза всех сил моего тела, души!! 
> Я второй! Кто нибудь, уберите его от моего хвоста!!
> - Второй, это четвёртый, подьтверждаю!!
> - Второй, выпольняю! 
> Это второй, я подбил его!!! Разрешите пасадку!
> Второй - Это диспетчер. Пасадку подьтверждаю... следите за самалётамии на поласе... 
> Я третьий... Разрешите пасадку!
> Третьий - это диспетчер, пасадку не разрешаю, ухадите на второй круг... 
> Это третьий, ухожу на следующий круг... 
> Oh man! I love it =)))

 Черт, даже мне захотелось поиграть!!!    ::

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by ST  *Оля*-это фразы из игры...   "подьтверждаю", "выпольняю", "третьий" - фразы из игры?

 Наверное локализация хреновая. Я в играх ещё не такое встречал. Более того - сам эти игры переводил. Например, делал самую раннюю локализацию X-COM Interceptor. За всю работу получил $100  ::  Тогда мне это казалось круто.

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## Dogboy182

> *Dogboy182*-крут!

   ::     

> Черт, даже мне захотелось поиграть!!!

 Ааа кому не хочется в защиту участвовать великого нерушимого советского союза в течение велекой отечественной войны!?  ::     

> Это на каком языке?..

  The one that all the cool kids talk =)

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## Ramil

> Ааа кому не хочется _ (по)участвовать _в защите_ великого нерушимого Советского Союза в течение Великой Отечественной Войны!?

 Порядок слов в русском языке - вещь хоть и не важная, но иногда нужная. 
А кому не захочется поучаствовать в Великой Отечественной Войне в защиту великого нерушимого Советского Союза.

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## DagothWarez

> Порядок слов в русском языке - вещь хоть и не важная...

 но иногда важная

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## Оля

И не нужная, но иногда нужная.

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## DagothWarez

> И не нужная, но иногда нужная.

 И иногда порядок, а иногда беспорядок.

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## Оля

> И иногда порядок, а иногда беспорядок.

 И иногда всегда, а иногда не всегда   ::

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by DagothWarez  И иногда порядок, а иногда беспорядок.   И иногда всегда, а иногда не всегда

 Сегодня - всемирный день психического здоровья

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## Bisquit

http://www.compromat.ru/main/prismi/politkovskaya.htm

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## Lampada

http://www.svobodanews.ru/Article/2006/ ... 59833.html

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## Ramil

> http://www.svobodanews.ru/Article/2006/10/10/20061010000059833.html

 Ну то, что Бабицкий ничего другого написать не мог, это я понимаю. И эта статья лишь подтверждает всё, что было сказано выше. Именно из-за её автора. Ещё один выкормыш Борис Абрамыча. Сам БАБ ещё не высказался? 
В догонку можно также запостить сюда творения Валерии Новодворской, так сказать, "для комплекту".
Я искренне соболезную родным и близким погибшей. Не считаю правильным и умесным пляски на крышке её гроба некоторых лиц, однако попытки сделать из неё "мученицу за свободу и права человека" считаю осквернением самих этих понятий. Господ Березовского, Бабицкого и Ковалёва считаю преступниками, которых надо судить. Отдельное чувство омерзения вызывает первая тройка бывшего политического блока СПС. 
Извините за откровенность.

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## Lampada

http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.html?docId=712003

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## Lampada

http://www.polit.ru/news/2006/10/11/grajd.html
Интересно, что она, оказывается, имела двойное гражданство.
Кто-то её поддерживал, кто-то был против её деятельности, но, я хочу надеяться, что все осуждают убийство, любое убийство.

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## Scorpio

Ramil, +1. 
А по поводу плача и истерики на могиле Политковской -- ну, мне почему-то все время приходят на ум вот эти строки:  _- Похороны получились великолепные, - сообщил Куделка. - А
лучшую речь произнес лейтенант Рэднов.
- Не сомневаюсь. Он над ней, наверное, корпел уже несколько месяцев._ 
Л.М. Буджолд. "Осколки Чести".
Классика фантастики, рекомендую всем прочитать.

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## charlestonian

Последняя ее статья: http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/ ... -s11.shtml

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## Ramil

> Последняя ее статья: http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/ ... -s11.shtml

 [Краткий пересказ]
Россия сажает бывших преступников и террористов на руководящие посты чеченских силовых ведомств, а они вместо того, чтобы и дальше заниматься терроризмом теперь преследуют своих кровников. Чеченцы, даже без участия России продолжают резать друг друга, может пострадать имидж "геноцида чеченского народа". Бардак!
Однако теперь в Чечне есть чеченцы-сторонники федералов. Такими темпами Чечня может и вовсе не отделиться от России. Какая досада...
[Конец пересказа]

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## Lampada

> Originally Posted by charlestonian  Последняя ее статья: http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/ ... -s11.shtml   [Краткий пересказ]
> Россия сажает бывших преступников и террористов на руководящие посты чеченских силовых ведомств, а они вместо того, чтобы и дальше заниматься терроризмом теперь преследуют своих кровников. Чеченцы, даже без участия России продолжают резать друг друга, может пострадать имидж "геноцида чеченского народа". Бардак!
> Однако теперь в Чечне есть чеченцы-сторонники федералов. Такими темпами Чечня может и вовсе не отделиться от России. Какая досада...
> [Конец пересказа]

 В общем понятно:  убили за то, что писала неправду.

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian  Последняя ее статья: http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/ ... -s11.shtml   [Краткий пересказ]
> Россия сажает бывших преступников и террористов на руководящие посты чеченских силовых ведомств, а они вместо того, чтобы и дальше заниматься терроризмом теперь преследуют своих кровников. Чеченцы, даже без участия России продолжают резать друг друга, может пострадать имидж "геноцида чеченского народа". Бардак!
> Однако теперь в Чечне есть чеченцы-сторонники федералов. Такими темпами Чечня может и вовсе не отделиться от России. Какая досада...
> [Конец пересказа]   В общем понятно:  убили за то, что писала неправду.

 ты действительно так считаешь?   ::

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## Lampada

> Originally Posted by Lampada        Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian  Последняя ее статья: http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/ ... -s11.shtml   [Краткий пересказ]
> Россия сажает бывших преступников и террористов на руководящие посты чеченских силовых ведомств, а они вместо того, чтобы и дальше заниматься терроризмом теперь преследуют своих кровников. Чеченцы, даже без участия России продолжают резать друг друга, может пострадать имидж "геноцида чеченского народа". Бардак!
> Однако теперь в Чечне есть чеченцы-сторонники федералов. Такими темпами Чечня может и вовсе не отделиться от России. Какая досада...
> [Конец пересказа]   В общем понятно:  убили за то, что писала неправду.   ты действительно так считаешь?

 Где там правда, а где нет, я имею слабое представление:  пять дней назад я не знала, что была такая Политковская.  
Значит, убили за то, что писала правду?
Я, конечно, считаю, что человек злодейски убит.
Кстати, ещё известно, что *абсолютной* правды нет.

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## gRomoZeka

> пять дней назад я не знала, что была такая Политковская.

 Я тоже о ней услышала только после убийства.  ::  Зато теперь из нее сделали знаменитость...

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## Ramil

> Где там правда, а где нет, я имею слабое представление:  пять дней назад я не знала, что была такая Политковская.  
> Значит, убили за то, что писала правду?
> Я, конечно, считаю, что человек злодейски убит.
> Кстати, ещё известно, что *абсолютной* правды нет.

 Честно, я понятия не имею, кто и за что её убил (даже в смысле догадок). Для меня ясно - только одно. Действующей власти её убивать не было никакого резона. 
А потом, за 90% всех заказных убийств в России стоят денежные мотивы. Просто так не убивают, и уж тем более журналистов. На них вообще в России как-то перестали обращать внимание - их толпы и каждый что-то своё бормочет. По крайней мере я не встречал людей, которые серьёзно относились бы к журналистским публикациям. Практически всё, что сейчас публикуется - заказной и проплаченный материал (тем более политические статьи).
Так что я больше склоняюсь к тому, что кто-то с кем-то просто не поделил денег, а Политковская пострадала.

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## Scorpio

> Последняя ее статья: http://2006.novayagazeta.ru/nomer/2006/ ... -s11.shtml

 Ну, прочитал (букв было много, но осилил  ::  ). 
Мораль: оказывается не все, кто в Чечне воюет на стороне федеральной власти, сплошные ангелы! Оказывается, некоторые из них раньше и похищениями людей занимались, и от кровной мести пытаются скрыться! Здравствуйте -- без Политковской мы про это не знали. Правда, про то, что похищениями людей они занимались как члены дудаевских банд (и кровная месть им грозит именно за те времена) -- про это в статье, понятно, ни слова нет. 
Очень пикантно то, что большинство обвинений в адрес этих людей подкреплено ссылками на "прокуратуру". Какую, простите, прокуратуру -- Чечни? Но она же, вроде, как и все силовые ведомства Чечни, только и занимается, что под контролем Москвы уничтожает бедный чеченский народ? Нестыковочка какая-то получилась. 
Конец статьи совершенно убойный по своей тупости:   

> Таким образом, чеченизация — это курс на расширение войны.

 Немного непонятно, 1) зачем российской власти "расширение войны"; 2) и почему, если уж она так этого хочет, жизнь в Чечне явно становится все более мирной -- вопреки усилиям той самой власти, что ли? 
Вывод: статья -- пример редкого интеллектуального и морального убожества. Такую стряпню сожрут только в Стокгольме -- городе, в честь которого назван "синдром заложника". 
P.S.: в недоумении: а где же громкогласно обещанные фотографии пыток и всяких прочих зверств? Вместо них -- Кадыров с какими-то людьми, а главное -- жирная черная спина в майке с надписью "Кадыровский спецназ". Ужас -- аж дрожь пробирает! Но на "пытки", увы, все-таки не тянет. Нет, чтобы пару отрезанных пальцев или ушей на столе Фотошопом пририсовать... Деградирует "Новая газета", это факт.
[/quote]

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## Vincent Tailors

Российские спецслужбы с гордостью рапортуют об уничтожении еще одного тайного агента ЦРУ.

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## Scorpio

Небольшое дополнение к теме: решил зайти на форум "Новой газеты" и высказать свое мнение о статье.
Жму на ссылку (http://otkpblto.ru/) -- вижу вот что  *ДЛЯ УЧАСТИЯ В ФОРУМЕ НЕОБХОДИМО ЗАРЕГИСТРИРОВАТЬСЯ!!! Нажмите соответствующую ссылку вверху страницы.* 
Зарегестрироваться только чтобы просмотреть дискуссию?!! Что-то новенькое для меня. Ну ладно, пробую зарегистрироваться...  *Обнаружена ошибка:
Администратор форума запретил в данное время новые регистрации.* 
Самое милое: все это постоянно сопровождается гордой надписью вверху страницы:  *ОТКРЫТО.RU
Форум "Новой газеты"* 
Написали бы уж прямо: Добро пожаловать, или Посторонним вход воспрещен...

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## DagothWarez

Во блин. Оказывается еще в 2005 году писали.  http://www.compromat.ru/main/prismi/pol ... anevzl.htm 
"Путем организации покушения (либо физической ликвидации) в отношении Политковской А.С"
Оригинал этого материала
© "ru_politics", 07.04.2005 
Секретно 
Аналитическая справка
"О попытках Невзлина Л.Б. дестабилизировать обстановку на территории Российской Федерации"
Анализ поступающей информации свидетельствует о непрекращающихся попытках находящегося в международном розыске Невзлина Л.Б. (1959 г.р. Постановление о розыске обвиняемого от 15.01.04 г.) дестабилизировать обстановку на территории Российской Федерации, с целью подрыва основ конституционного строя.  
В ходе реализации оперативных мероприятий, выявлены основные намерения Невзлина по реализации планов по подрыву конституционного строя и дискредитации высшего руководства страны.  
Анализ полученной информации о целях готовящихся провокаций позволяет реконструировать замысел Невзлина Л.Б. и предпринять меры оперативного вмешательства.  
По оперативным данным, Невзлин Л.Б. ведет активную подготовку провокационных акций, которые намечены на сентябрь-октябрь 2005 г.  
Предполагаемый сценарий «революции Невзлина» выглядит следующим образом.  
1. Провоцирование политического кризиса на территории Москвы среди оппозиции, либерально настроенной интеллигенции, политических деятелей, журналистов, студенчества;  
На основании полученных данных, Невзлин намерен спровоцировать кризис  
в указанных слоях населения путем организации покушения (либо физической ликвидации) в отношении Политковской А.С. обозревателя издания «Новая газета».  
Как утверждают источники, фигура Политковской А.С. определена Невзлиным с учетом двух важных обстоятельств:  
- журналист Политковская А.С. долгое время находится в остром конфликте с представителями всех силовых ведомств РФ (МВД, МО РФ, ГРУ и т.д.)  
- журналист Политковская А.С. находится в состоянии острого конфликта с руководством страны;  
- ее очевидная связь с чеченским подпольем;  
В обоих случаях предмет конфликта – не всегда обоснованные публикации Политковской А.С. и ее общественная деятельность, выпуск книг и брошюр с острой критикой и обвинениями руководства России в массовых нарушениях прав человека, коррупции и т.п.  
Таким образом, при всей неоднозначности личности Политковской А.С, акция (покушение) в отношении Политковской вызовет, по замыслу Невзлина, необходимый резонанс в России и за рубежом.  
Невзлин, основываясь на конфликтах Политковской А.С. с руководством спецслужб и военных ведомств, определил, что фигура Политковской является в данной ситуации ключевой, т.к. совершение в ее отношении силовой акции немедленно поставит под подозрение абсолютно весь силовой блок, на который опирается в своей деятельности Президент РФ В.В. Путин, и может вызвать серьезный политический кризис в Москве и по всей России.  
Источники подтверждают, что согласно сценарию Невзлина, после акции в отношении Политковской А.С. последует:  
2. Организация массовых протестов и демонстраций (с участием не менее 80-100 тыс. человек) в Москве, с требованиями немедленной отставки всех силовых министров и дирекции ФСБ, а также организация бессрочных палаточных городков возле соответствующих министерств и ведомств.  
По расчетам Невзлина, деятельность Политковской широко известна за рубежом, что позволит без дополнительных финансовых затрат, гарантировано получить острую информационную волну из-за рубежа и негативную прессу «всем силовикам и Путину». Происшествие, связанное с именем Политковской, вызовет мощную волну протеста в зарубежных правозащитных организациях и органах представительной власти США и стран Европейского сообщества.  
Таким образом, по расчетам Невзлина, высшее руководство страны окажется в ситуации, где, с одной стороны: из-за покушения на Политковскую автоматически обеспечивается давление на Кремль со стороны интеллигенции, либералов и радикальной антипутинской оппозиции. С другой стороны: давление международного сообщества из-за известности Политковской за рубежом, как журналиста и правозащитника, борца за мир в Чечне.  
Также, все силовые ведомства находятся под подозрением в организации покушения (ликвидации) Политковской, поскольку находятся с ней в конфликтных отношениях.  
3. По сценарию дестабилизации обстановки, московские выступления поддерживаются частью российских регионов – московские протесты усиливаются представителями субъектов РФ – в столицу пребывают делегаты от региональных представительств правозащитных движений и политических партий либерального толка.  
Массовые акции в Москве призваны:  
а) парализовать деятельность органов власти;  
б) толкнуть руководство страны на радикальные шаги с целью наведения порядка и обеспечения общественной и государственной безопасности;  
4.Все попытки наведения порядка в Москве будут истолкованы как открытая попытка руководства России выйти за рамки конституционного поля с целью установления военной диктатуры.  
При активной политической и информационной поддержке зарубежных источников, предполагается реализация жестких обвинений в адрес высшего руководства страны в организации покушения на одного из самых известных журналистов и правозащитников (Политковская) с целью установления диктатуры.  
5. В целях усиления подозрений в адрес Кремля и силовиков (их причастности к преступлению), в России планируется бесплатное распространение среди населения книг, сборников статей Политковской А.С. о боевых действиях в Чечне, а также ее книга о Президенте РФ В.В. Путине. По расчетам организаторов, население получив книги, прочтет их, и сопоставит покушение в отношении Политковской с содержанием ее работ, после чего возникнет устойчивое мнение о причастности силовых ведомств и спецслужб к данному преступлению.  
Таким образом, при таком воздействии на ситуацию Кремль, по расчетам Невзлина, должен оказаться в условиях жесточайшего выбора:  
- либо сдача позиций (отправка силовиков в отставку, уход Путина с поста)  
- либо силовая локализация массовых протестов и революционного движения.  
Так, по замыслу Невзлина, любая попытка Кремля блокировать и снять возникшую ситуацию, должна будет провоцировать жесткую негативную реакцию (давление) со стороны международного сообщества, тем самым обеспечивая широкую поддержку и защиту возникшему революционному движению в России.  
Действие по кольцевой схеме «Проест оппозиции в России – попытка Кремля локализации ситуации – негативный резонанс за рубежом» предполагается применять до тех пор, пока Кремль не пойдет на очевидные уступки.  
Первый этап давления – отставка всего силового блока (подозрения в покушении на Политковскую);  
Второй этап требований — уход с поста Президента РФ В.В. Путина;  
Для создания массовости и привлечения к протестным действиям наибольшего числа населения Невзлиным предполагается, помимо политических выдвинуть требования социального характера – ориентировано на организации левого толка […]

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## gRomoZeka

> Во блин. Оказывается еще в 2005 году писали. http://www.compromat.ru/main/prismi/pol ... anevzl.htm

 Секретные материалы в открытом доступе? Не смешите...
Я сама могу пачку таких "секретных" материалов написать.   ::

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## DagothWarez

> Секретные материалы в открытом доступе? Не смешите...
> Я сама могу пачку таких "секретных" материалов написать.

 И ты прав. Но все равно же интересно, что об этом уже писали год назад.

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## Lampada

"За информацию об убийстве журналистки Анны Политковской заплатят 25 миллионов рублей"  http://www.rg.ru/2006/10/09/politkovska ... anons.html

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## Chuvak

> "За информацию об убийстве журналистки Анны Политковской заплатят 25 миллионов рублей"  http://www.rg.ru/2006/10/09/politkovska ... anons.html

 Интересно, сколько за убийство заплатили   ::

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## charlestonian

She could be next...  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 3/002.html

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## gRomoZeka

> She could be next...  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 3/002.html

 Боже, где журналисты их находят?   ::  
Первый раз слышу об этой номинантке на Нобелевскую премию. Кто-нибудь о ней знал?

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## DagothWarez

> Первый раз слышу об этой номинантке на Нобелевскую премию. Кто-нибудь о ней знал?

 Вааще первый раз слышу. 
Блин, а когда нобелевку дают, уведомляют по почте? А то вдруг и мне дали, я не знаю?

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## kalinka_vinnie

правила быть кандидатом нобелкевки простая: 
кому-то тебя надо рекомендовать комитету. 
всё. 
уведомляют, конечно, в прессе, и какой-то банкир в Бангладеш получил премию. А потом будет большая вечеринка в Осло, где наручят тебе нобелевку! 
так, что не ожидайся

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by charlestonian  She could be next...  http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 3/002.html   Боже, где журналисты их находят?   
> Первый раз слышу об этой номинантке на Нобелевскую премию. Кто-нибудь о ней знал?

 нет, но не увидивляюсь, что не знал. Я ведь не следую за Чечнию. А ты?

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## DagothWarez

> Я ведь не следую за Чечнию. А ты?

 Я тоже не “следую за Чечнию” (whatever that means) но за милльон бакинских енотов готов.

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## gRomoZeka

> Originally Posted by gRomoZeka  Боже, где журналисты их находят?   
> Первый раз слышу об этой номинантке на Нобелевскую премию. Кто-нибудь о ней знал?   нет, но не увидивляюсь, что не знал. Я ведь не следую за Чечнию. А ты?

 А я удивляюсь.   ::  
В моем представлении человек, претендующий на получение Нобелевской премии, должен совершить нечто значительное (совершить, а не задумать).  
А всякие никому не известные борцы за права человека и журналисты, кропающие сомнительные статейки, этого недостойны.   
Что значительного совершила г-жа Юсупова? "Нas spent the past several years gathering evidence of human rights abuses in Chechnya"? Ха! Ну и что дальше?

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## kalinka_vinnie

ничего дальше. Повторяю - все могут быть кандидатами (вклучая DragothWarez)! Только один человек получает премию  ::  
Как мне известно, Юсопова не поличала премию. Что в этом тогда удивительно? 
а ты тоже не слышала про: Мухаммаду Юнусу? http://top.rbc.ru/index.shtml?/news/soc ... _bod.shtml

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## gRomoZeka

> а ты тоже не слышала про: Мухаммаду Юнусу? http://top.rbc.ru/index.shtml?/news/soc ... _bod.shtml

 Да-а..   ::   ::  
Обмельчала нобелевка.   ::

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## Оля

> правила стать кандидатом нобелевки простые:  кто-то должен тебя_ рекомендовать комитету. 
> всё. 
> уведомляют, конечно, в прессе, и какой-то банкир в Бангладеше получил премию. А потом будет большая вечеринка в Осло, где тебе вручат нобелевку! 
> так_ что не ожидайся (такого слова нет; может быть, ты хотел сказать "не удивляйся"? "жди и не удивляйся"?...)

  

> Я ведь не следую за Чечнию.

 Эта фраза вообще непонятна   ::

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## Оля

> ничего дальше. Повторяю - все могут быть кандидатами (вклучая DragothWarez)! А премию получает только один человек_  
> Как мне известно, Юсопова не получила премию. Что в этом тогда удивительного?

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## Lampada

[quote=Оля] 

> Я ведь не следую за Чечнию.

 Эта фраза вообще непонятна   :: [/quote:270cil62]
Я думаю, что КВ спутал _следовать_ со _следить_.  Он хотел сказать _Я ведь не слежу за событиями в Чечне_.

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## kalinka_vinnie

::  да... не слежу и даже не следую!   ::

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## adoc

I am quite surprized by the fact that she was killed.  I was once referred to her articles by someone who labeled her as a "courageous investigative journalist".  Naturally, I read two or three of her articles and I did not find anything investigative about them.  Just some general bs I could compose in a certain bitchy mood without having to even get up from the chair.  I mean, anyone can write that type of opinions, there are terabytes of that crap based on zero specifics everywhere on the web.  I finally concluded that the person who recommended her has no slightest idea of what investigative journalism is.  
I dunno, maybe my opinion was formed too fast, but at a first glance her work did not look like something of outstanding value.  And now she is killed for being an investigative journalist?  Kinda hard to believe.  Is there a proof of that?  Was there a note found somewhere saying "die, you, ...ummm... investigative journalist".  Is it possible that she simply borrowed the wrong person's money and did not return?

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## Lampada

Я слушала, как Жириновский выражал своё мнение об этом убийстве.  По его словам, убили просто потому что её фамилия хорошо известна в стране, а цель у того, кто заказывает подобные убийства (он верит, что это либо Березовский, либо кто-то другой заграницей): дискредитировать тех, кто у власти, продемонстрировать, что в стране сейчас нет порядка, и потом не будет из-за слабости президента.  Он предрёк, что поближе к выборам, будет ещё много таких заказных убийств.  Террор в общем.   ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

> I am quite surprized by the fact that she was killed.  I was once referred to her articles by someone who labeled her as a "courageous investigative journalist".  Naturally, I read two or three of her articles and I did not find anything investigative about them.  Just some general bs I could compose in a certain bitchy mood without having to even get up from the chair.  I mean, anyone can write that type of opinions, there are terabytes of that cr@p based on zero specifics everywhere on the web.  I finally concluded that the person who recommended her has no slightest idea of what investigative journalism is.  
> I dunno, maybe my opinion was formed too fast, but at a first glance her work did not look like something of outstanding value.  And now she is killed for being an investigative journalist?  Kinda hard to believe.  Is there a proof of that?  Was there a note found somewhere saying "die, you, ...ummm... investigative journalist".  Is it possible that she simply borrowed the wrong person's money and did not return?

 Well even if she might have been unbeknownst to us, she did win a couple of international prizes for her work. Journalistic prizes that is. So she couldn't have been a total whacko and was soomewhat known in the journalistic circles...

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## gRomoZeka

> Well even if she might have been unbeknownst to us, she did win a couple of international prizes for her work. Journalistic prizes that is. So she couldn't have been a total whacko and was soomewhat known in the journalistic circles...

 That's just politics.
I'm sure she wouldn't win her prizes if she critisized chechen terrorists. 
For some reason West considers the fact she criticized Russian government worthy of reward regardless of the value of her materials.

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## kalinka_vinnie

I knew someone would say that!   ::  Bring out the evil 'West' with no independent institutions capable of independent thought... we've heard it before. What does the 'West' mean anyway? If I, a citizen of "the West" say that I saw skinheads beating an Asian in Russia, I'd be blown off as some Westerner criticizing Russia. I have a so-called hidden agenda...  
The fact is that you are talking just politics, because you have don't know what she received the prizes for, who gave it to her and for what reason  ::   ::  
Am I right? After this post you will probably do some research, but I am just reacting to your "automatic reaction" to blame the West of partisanship...

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## gRomoZeka

> I knew someone would say that!   Bring out the evil 'West' with no independent institutions capable of independent thought... we've heard it before.

 Who said it's evil.   ::  But it is politics anyway.

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## Бармалей

Вот. Ужасы продолжает...  ::   А конечно, я знаю, что кто-либо скажет "А чё? Сколько убийств было в Нью Йорке или Лондоне?!? Американцы и Европейские просто хотят критиковать Россию, пока они игнорируют свои проблемы. " А конечно он будет прав в каком-то смысле -- тем не менее, я считаю, что пять из шестых крупные лица, а для этой причиной, эти убийства важнее чем типичные...  http://www.russiablog.org/2006/10/itart ... .html#more

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## gRomoZeka

> Вот. Ужас_ продолжается...  _Конечно, я знаю, что кто-нибудь скажет: "А чё? Сколько убийств было в Нью Йорке или Лондоне?!? Американцы и европейцы просто хотят критиковать Россию, пока (?) они игнорируют свои проблемы. " И, конечно, он будет прав в каком-то смысле -- тем не менее, я считаю, что пятеро из шести -- крупные лица (фигуры, etc.), а по этой причине_ эти убийства важнее, чем типичные...  http://www.russiablog.org/2006/10/itart ... .html#more

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## Бармалей

Главный Вопрос:
Что хуже -- убийства в России или Бармаленина грамматика?    ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

нет, это просто не выносимо! Давай делаем интернетный протест убийств в России!!!

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## DagothWarez

> нет, это просто не выносимо! Давай делаем интернетный протест против убийств в России!!!

 Вопрос только против кого протестовать. Боюсь, что того, кто убил наши протесты, вряд ли сильно волнуют.

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## kalinka_vinnie

мы не против кого, а против того, что в России убивают людей! Особенно журналистов и банкиров! У меня знакомые журналисты в России, теперь боюсь за их жизнь!

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## DagothWarez

> мы не против кого, а против того

 А как можно протестовать не против кого, а против того? Мы же не протестуем против дождя или зимы. Мы протестуем против кого-то, против чьих то действий.

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## basurero

> "А чё? Сколько убийств было в Нью Йорке или Лондоне?!?

 Я предполагаю, что количество убийств в России намного больше, чем в Англии или в Америке, особенно убийств заменитых людей.

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## Scorpio

> нет, это просто не выносимо! Давай делаем интернетный протест убийств в России!!!

 А вы читали Ильфа и Петрова?
У них в одном рассказе есть замечательная фраза: "Не надо бороться за чистоту улиц -- надо подметать."

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## Оля

> бармалеева грамматика

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## Оля

> нет, это просто невыносимо!

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## Bisquit

Мы уже протестовали все 90 годы - работать пора.

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## adoc

> Well even if she might have been unbeknownst to us, she did win a couple of international prizes for her work. Journalistic prizes that is. So she couldn't have been a total whacko and was soomewhat known in the journalistic circles...

 She might have won a prize or two, I don't know much about journalistic prizes.  However, whatever I read did not represent a tiniest threat to the Russian government. In all honesty, given the degree of trust the russian media has among Russians (justifiably so), it would not represent a threat to a local milkman.  And now how do we learn about the Hollywood style assassination of the famous journalist who would give her life for truth and her beloved country? Right, from the media again.  It just doesn't add up. I bet in the end it'll turn out that a crazed neighbor killed her over a cat. Unfortunately, that wouldn't cause a sensation.

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## Bisquit

Guys, I want to say something of critisizing Russia in Western media.
I've read Western papers on www.inosmi.ru & www.inopressa.ru for 3 years. I also sometimes visit English papers' websites to read original publications. I think that 80% of publications of Russia is bias. It's not sheer lie, they are too smart to write something like that, but 
1. Western journalists rarely ask Russian newsmakers of their opinion. They seldom ask ordinary Russian people what they think of some political or social event in Russia. On the contrary, they tend to use so-called "experts on Russia". (Oh, Is there any school or university that gives the degree in "experting on Russia"?) These "experts" are either Russians who work in Western funded NGOs, or Westeners who visit Russia two or three times a year to meet with Russian "experts". The fact is that both of these groups are not independent. NGOs can't be independent since they are funded, directly or indirectly, by Western governments.  Most of these people are virtually unknown in Russia and their opinion has not credibility among ordinary Russians. Politkovskaya is a good example. It's very easy to pose oneself as an "expert" if nobody knows you and you say or write something that pleases people in the West. 
2. Most of Western journalists don't speak Russian or their Russian is very poor and, therefore, they can't read Russian quality press (both state controlled and oligarchs controlled) or directly ask questions to Russian people. 
3. Most of Western journalists live in Moscow spending their time in night clubs or with whores. They seldom visit other cities exept Moscow or SPb and, therefore, have no consistent view on life in Russian province.

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## paasikivi

I wondered how she could survive so long. If one doesn't keep one's mouth shut, one soon ends up in the graveyard, it was like that in Stalin's Russia, it is the same in China, in today's Russia (thanks to Putin) and in all totalitarian countries.  
In my country most people think that she did important work in revealing the atrocities of Putin's army. Of course, my opinion may be affected by the fact that I live in a country which has been oppressed by Russia for the last 100 years.

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## Bisquit

I wonder why nobody of Western journalists revealed atrocities of Chechen terrorists in 90s. Oops, sorry. That was Paul Khlebnikov.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Well even if she might have been unbeknownst to us, she did win a couple of international prizes for her work. Journalistic prizes that is. So she couldn't have been a total whacko and was soomewhat known in the journalistic circles...   She might have won a prize or two, I don't know much about journalistic prizes.  However, whatever I read did not represent a tiniest threat to the Russian government. In all honesty, given the degree of trust the russian media has among Russians (justifiably so), it would not represent a threat to a local milkman.  And now how do we learn about the Hollywood style assassination of the famous journalist who would give her life for truth and her beloved country? Right, from the media again.  It just doesn't add up. I bet in the end it'll turn out that a crazed neighbor killed her over a cat. Unfortunately, that wouldn't cause a sensation.

 You don't have to be a threat in order to irk some sleezeball to order a hit job on you. Pat Robertson poses no threat to noone, but he's received dozens upon dozens of death threats; just because he is a religious wacko. I highly doubt it is a Russian government conspiracy to silence the critics, but rather a Zhirinovsky type who used a little of his personal wealth to deal with a person he thought was annoying. Shut her up once and for all. 
BTW, from who else but the media would we learn about the assasination? I don't have friends working in the Moscow police department to give me such information...   ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Guys, I want to say something of critisizing Russia in Western media.
> I've read Western papers on www.inosmi.ru & www.inopressa.ru for 3 years. I also sometimes visit English papers' websites to read original publications. I think that 80% of publications of Russia is bias. It's not sheer lie, they are too smart to write something like that, but

 I don't know, Bisquit, I've seen those websites. But they don't seem to publish all articles about Russia, they only do select ones. For example, I tried to find the New York Times article (a very serious and respected newspaper) about the protection of the Kamchatkan trouts (see my topic), published October 16th, but it wasn't there. I am wondering whether they select articles on purpose that concern them directly and therefore seem more critical... I don't know.    

> 1. Western journalists rarely ask Russian newsmakers of their opinion. They seldom ask ordinary Russian people what they think of some political or social event in Russia. On the contrary, they tend to use so-called "experts on Russia". (Oh, Is there any school or university that gives the degree in "experting on Russia"?) These "experts" are either Russians who work in Western funded NGOs, or Westeners who visit Russia two or three times a year to meet with Russian "experts". The fact is that both of these groups are not independent. NGOs can't be independent since they are funded, directly or indirectly, by Western governments.  Most of these people are virtually unknown in Russia and their opinion has not credibility among ordinary Russians. Politkovskaya is a good example. It's very easy to pose oneself as an "expert" if nobody knows you and you say or write something that pleases people in the West.

 True, most news agencies can not afford to have Russia 100% staffed. But if you look at all the main media outlets, you'll see that they do have people on the ground and in Russia.   

> 2. Most of Western journalists don't speak Russian or their Russian is very poor and, therefore, they can't read Russian quality press (both state controlled and oligarchs controlled) or directly ask questions to Russian people.

  That's what translators are for, but you are right they can't directly talk to every single person.   

> 3. Most of Western journalists live in Moscow spending their time in night clubs or with whores. They seldom visit other cities exept Moscow or SPb and, therefore, have no consistent view on life in Russian province.

  Now that I find offensive. I am sorry, but that is a profound lie. I am personally aqcuinted with journalists covering Russian news. Yes, they are based in Moscow (naturally, that is where politics happen), but they travel every place where things happen. My friend did a story on Norilsk (traveled there), Vladivostok (water shortages in 2004) as well as countless of provincial towns and cities since he got assigned to cover Russia. Night clubs and whores   ::  Who is biased now, eh?   ::  
Make sure you read stories from well-known newspapers and not "the Exile" or "The Weekly Standard" which are totally unknown in the "West" and which I found on your inosmi.

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## adoc

> BTW, from who else but the media would we learn about the assasination? I don't have friends working in the Moscow police department to give me such information...

 That's the problem.  In many aspects Russia remains a closed society, even for its own citizens. There is no freedom of information legislation, authorities are not very cooperative, the working practices of Russian journalists are way under par (and believe me, I talked to them, and I was less than impressed by these conversations. Basically, my conclusion is that if under pressing deadlines they cannot get the info they want, and it is often the case considering the reasons I mentioned above, they just make sh|t up.  Their idea of opposing spins is to spin the other way. Well, that is all understandable, 20 years ago none of objective reporting was even necessary, so now there are probably only very few people out there to teach acceptable reporting standards to young professionals).  
The western media also doesn't get much to go on, I wouldn't be surprized if an average foreign reporter is already happy if he's simply let into the country.  So, naturally, with the lack of sufficient reader's interest and resources, they take the unchecked "dissenting" sources as a countermeasure to the government bs and hush-hush and publish that. Of course there is going to be bias everywhere. 
I just want to wait and see, it is most likely someone's personal vendetta, not a high-profile political scandal.

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## Chuvak

> Главный Вопрос:
> Что хуже -- убийства в России или Бармаленина грамматика?

 I will ask you a counter-question: Have you ever assassinated someone with you grammar ???

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## Бармалей

> Originally Posted by Бармалей  Главный Вопрос:
> Что хуже -- убийства в России или Бармаленина грамматика?      I will ask you a counter-question: Have you ever assassinated someone with you grammar ???

 Not yet, but I've put several people into comas with it...  ::

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## Rtyom

ASSasinated... Hahahaha

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## Scorpio

> I wondered how she could survive so long. If one doesn't keep one's mouth shut, one soon ends up in the graveyard, it was like that in Stalin's Russia, it is the same in China, in today's Russia (thanks to Putin) and in all totalitarian countries.

 What a horror. You just forgot to add to your list the "liberated" Afghanistan and "liberated" Iraq. In the Iraq 26 reporters were assasinated only in this year (or, maybe, previous year -- can't remember exactly). (This is a bit more, than in entire Russia for last 5 years.)   

> In my country most people think that she did important work in revealing the atrocities of Putin's army.

 I don't know, what is "Putin's army" -- I guess, he doesn't have a personal army of his own.   

> Of course, my opinion may be affected by the fact that I live in a country which has been oppressed by Russia for the last 100 years.

 Hmm, it is getting interesting. What is your country -- Finland? And which way it was "oppressed by Russia for the last 100 years"??

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## Guin

Where Is America's Politkovskaya?

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## Python

Главная проблема том что, Россию всегда шетают виновный до время когда она доказанна невиновный. 
Проблемы есть, конечно, как у всех стран, ну ситуация вроде бы меняица

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## Бармалей

Yikes. Another one, guys: http://www.russiablog.org/2006/10/dalne ... .html#more 
I'm starting to think that it's better to be that lady who sells the toilet paper for the public toilets than anybody important in Russia today -- they have a bad habit of ending up dead.  ::

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## Оля

> Главная проблема в том, что_ Россию всегда считают виновной, пока не докажут, что она невиновна. 
> Проблемы есть, конечно, как у всех стран, ну ситуация вроде бы меняется

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## Guin

Anna Politkovskaya and the Self-Defense of Democracy 
The russian translation of the article is here: http://inosmi.ru/translation/230708.html

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## Scorpio

John Laughland. " Who killed Anna Politkovskaya?"  http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=67

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## scotcher

John Laughland. Paid mouthpiece of the world's worst pieces of excrement. 
Good Lord, now there is a journalist no-one would mourn.

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## Scorpio

> John Laughland. Paid mouthpiece of the world's worst pieces of excrement.

 Scotcher, I wonder what made you so upset? And did you even look at this article before starting to insult its author? 
I wonder, if it is really your idea of "freedom of word"? Despite I completely desagree with hordes of journalists, which now try to depict Politkovskaya as kind of ex-heroine -- I'm not going to call them "mouthpieces of the world's worst pieces of excrement", or likewise. Rude insults look like very poor arguments for me.

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## scotcher

I'm not upset Scorpio, I am quite able to dimiss out of hand any article written by that whore without generating any emotional response at all, and since we've been through my reasons for considering him a whore in the past, I see no reason to do so again.

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## Lampada

> ... Rude insults look like very poor arguments for me.

 *+1*

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## laxxy

> Originally Posted by Scorpio  ... Rude insults look like very poor arguments for me.   *+1*

 In this case I would call it a correct and very reasonable description, rather than an insult though (I haven't read the article, but I do recall the name).
The argument being that if a person has never been observed writing anything but trash in the past, one might not be that interested in his new creations.

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## adoc

In politics, the question whether to call someone a whore or a paid professional is a matter of semantics or personal allegiance.

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## scotcher

> In politics, the question whether to call someone a whore or a paid professional is a matter of semantics or personal allegiance.

 Or personaly morality. 
My own personal morality tells me that when a journalist is consistently and knowingly dishonest, and goes from placing a certain ideological slant on a story to constructing entire polemics around pure, self-conscious, custom-built falsehoods, then they have crossed the line between paid proffessional and whore. 
Your milage may vary, of course. That's entirely up to you.

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## Scorpio

> In politics, the question whether to call someone a whore or a paid professional is a matter of semantics or personal allegiance.
> 			
> 		  My own personal morality tells me that when a journalist is consistently and knowingly dishonest, and goes from placing a certain ideological slant on a story to constructing entire polemics around pure, self-conscious, custom-built falsehoods, then they have crossed the line between paid proffessional and whore.

 I can only wonder, how the person with such a strong moral principles can read "normal" mainstream Western press (or watch TV reports and so on). Because "open dishonesty", "ideological slants", "custom-builts falsehoods", etc, etc -- everything is much easier to find there.

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## scotcher

> I can only wonder, how the person with such a strong moral principles can read "normal" mainstream Western press (or watch TV reports and so on). Because "open dishonesty", "ideological slants", "custom-builts falsehoods", etc, etc -- everything is much easier to find there.

 Haha, now who is upset?  
Your real name is John Laughland and I claim my

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## ReDSanchous

What I'm going to ask now has nothing to do with the killing of the journalist but anyway, it's connected to the name of this thread. Can someone explain to me what Queen meant by "Another One Bites The Dust"? The literal translation doesn't work here at all. The thing is I recall seeing some sort of discussion of the name of the song but no one seemed to draw to any logical conclusion at the time.  Maybe, those guys were not English speakers and couldn't fathom the hidden meaning if there's such a meaning in the name. The lyrics don't help much either.

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## scotcher

"To bite the dust" means to fall to ground prone, either wounded or dead. Queen certainly didn't coin the phrase. 
[edit] lookee here
[/edit]

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## ReDSanchous

Thanks a lot for clarifying this to me! The problem was that I was simply lazy to look the phrase up in my English dicitionary.

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## charlestonian

He is one more: 
Journalist Plummets to His Death 
By Natalya Krainova / Staff Writer 
A Kommersant journalist who covered military affairs and had more than once angered government officials fell to his death Friday from a fifth-floor window of the apartment building where he lived. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 5/002.html

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## DDT

Hmmm......I would have thought that if   he wanted to kill himself that he would have jumped from a higher building. I don't think that 4 floors is all that high and there is no guarantee that he would not have survived as a quadriplegic or something.

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## Lampada

> Hmmm......I would have thought that if   he wanted to kill himself that he would have jumped from a higher building. I don't think that 4 floors is all that high and there is no guarantee that he would not have survived as a quadriplegic or something.

 *+1*  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

Funny how Russia has the highest death rate for journalists... I think the only country with a higher death rate is Iraq... 
ещё интереснее, что ничего не пишутся в Известиях про него. Только "выпал из окно". точка...

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## ReDSanchous

> Funny how Russia has the highest death rate for journalists... I think the only country with a higher death rate is Iraq... 
> ещё интереснее, что ничего не пишется в Известиях про него. Только "выпал из окна". точка...

 By the way, does anyone carry out any kind of statistical research of a death rate for journalists, embassy workers etc anywhere in the world? It'd be interesting enough to learn how many journalists have died while on assignment in foreign countries in the last, say, 10 years.

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Funny how Russia has the highest death rate for journalists... I think the only country with a higher death rate is Iraq... 
> ещё интереснее, что ничего не пишется в Известиях про него. Только "выпал из окна". точка...   *By the way, does anyone carry out any kind of statistical research of a death rate for journalists, embassy workers etc anywhere in the world?* It'd be interesting enough to learn how many journalists have died while on assignment in foreign countries in the last, say, 10 years.

 I am pretty sure that Russian KGB or whatever they call it nowadays, keeps track of that.

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## ReDSanchous

> Originally Posted by ReDSanchous        Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Funny how Russia has the highest death rate for journalists... I think the only country with a higher death rate is Iraq... 
> ещё интереснее, что ничего не пишется в Известиях про него. Только "выпал из окна". точка...   *By the way, does anyone carry out any kind of statistical research of a death rate for journalists, embassy workers etc anywhere in the world?* It'd be interesting enough to learn how many journalists have died while on assignment in foreign countries in the last, say, 10 years.   I am pretty sure that Russian KGB or whatever they call it nowadays, keeps track of that.

 Sadly, we can't access their reports unless one of the forum members is Russia's intelligence operative.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Funny how Russia has the highest death rate for journalists... I think the only country with a higher death rate is Iraq... 
> ещё интереснее, что ничего не пишется в Известиях про него. Только "выпал из окна". точка...   By the way, does anyone carry out any kind of statistical research of a death rate for journalists, embassy workers etc anywhere in the world? It'd be interesting enough to learn how many journalists have died while on assignment in foreign countries in the last, say, 10 years.

 I am sure I have seen it somewhere... wait! Found it! Check this link from the Committee to Protect Journalists  http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed_archives/stats.html 
I was mistaken, Russia is third after the likes of Iraq and Algeria! Of course this is from 1992 to today. Last year "only" two journalists got murdered. 
1. Iraq: 93
2. Algeria: 60
3. Russia: 44
4. Colombia: 39
5. Philippines: 32
6. India: 22
7. Bosnia: 19
8. Turkey: 18

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## ReDSanchous

[quote=kalinka_vinnie][quote=ReDSanchous][quote="kalinka_vinnie":3n66sv95]Funny how Russia has the highest death rate for journalists... I think the only country with a higher death rate is Iraq... 
ещё интереснее, что ничего не пиш[color=red]е[/color]тся в Известиях про него. Только "выпал из окн[color=red]а[/color]". точка...[/quote]
By the way, does anyone carry out any kind of statistical research of a death rate for journalists, embassy workers etc anywhere in the world? It'd be interesting enough to learn how many journalists have died while on assignment in foreign countries in the last, say, 10 years.[/quote] 
I am sure I have seen it somewhere... wait! Found it! Check this link from the Committee to Protect Journalists 
[url="http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed_archives/stats.html"]http://www.cpj.org/killed/killed_archives/stats.html[/url] 
I was mistaken, Russia is third after the likes of Iraq and Algeria! Of course this is from 1992 to today. Last year "only" two journalists got murdered. 
1. Iraq: 93
2. Algeria: 60
3. Russia: 44
4. Colombia: 39
5. Philippines: 32
6. India: 22
7. Bosnia: 19
8. Turkey: 18[/quote:3n66sv95]
Well, at least, the gap between the 1st place and the place Russia takes is big enough not to go to the stake over this.

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## DDT

Firstly, I wonder where the USA is on this list and also do you think that it has anything to do with journalists in Russia refusing to use "Ё" ?

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## Ramil

> Firstly, I wonder where the USA is on this list and also do you think that it has anything to do with journalists in Russia refusing to use "Ё" ?

 All journalists refusing to use "Ё" are routinely murdered by orders from FSB. 
USA has classified all information about it   ::  ::  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

> 1. Iraq: 93
> 2. Algeria: 60
> 3. Russia: 44
> 4. Colombia: 39
> 5. Philippines: 32
> 6. India: 22
> 7. Bosnia: 19
> 8. Turkey: 18

 Well, at least, the gap between the 1st place and the place Russia takes is big enough not to go to the stake over this.[/quote]
Yep, but remember that Iraq is in a state of war and 32 journalists were killed last year alone...

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## ReDSanchous

> Firstly, I wonder where the USA is on this list and also do you think that it has anything to do with journalists in Russia refusing to use "Ё" ?

 I think it's got so much to do with the refusal to use "ё". I haven't yet collected sufficient information about this, so I can't give you any proof of what I've just said.   

> Yep, but remember that Iraq is in a state of war and 32 journalists were killed last year alone...

 I do remember this. Even if Irag was not at war with America (though I think it should be vice versa, i.d. America is at war with Iraq), Russia would still compare very unfavourably on this list. It's real hard for me to imagine that Russia can be so close to a country like Columbia when it comes to murder rates.

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## Scorpio

> I do remember this. Even if Irag was not at war with America (though I think it should be vice versa, i.d. America is at war with Iraq), Russia would still compare very unfavourably on this list. It's real hard for me to imagine that Russia can be so close to a country like Columbia when it comes to murder rates.

 How much people are in Columbia, and how much -- in Russia?  :: 
If we are really talking about murder *rates* -- this means, what actual murder rate in Russia is much lower.

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by ReDSanchous  I do remember this. Even if Irag was not at war with America (though I think it should be vice versa, i.d. America is at war with Iraq), Russia would still compare very unfavourably on this list. It's real hard for me to imagine that Russia can be so close to a country like Columbia when it comes to murder rates.   How much people are in Columbia, and how much -- in Russia? 
> If we are really talking about murder *rates* -- this means, what actual murder rate in Russia is much lower.

 *How much people are in Columbia, and how much -- in Russia?* 
I don't know, never bought them  ::   ::   ::

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## Basil77

> *How much people are in Columbia, and how much -- in Russia?* 
> I don't know, never bought them

 In that case more proper question will be: "How much is to order a murder in Columbia and how much in Russia?"   ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

Scorpio is right, if you compare murder rates of journalists vs. bankers/businessmen/foreigners it really pales in comparison!    ::

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## ReDSanchous

I couldn't complain more, guys! But anyway, the figures seem outrageous and it's very disappointing to see Russia high on the list of murder rates regardless of the difference in population. And Columbia doesn't claim that it's on the way to prosperity and that it's approaching the developed world these days. Some people here in Russia do claim this.

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## charlestonian

> I couldn't complain more, guys! But anyway, the figures seem outrageous and it's very disappointing to see Russia high on the list of murder rates regardless of the difference in population. And Columbia doesn't claim that it's on the way to prosperity and that it's approaching the developed world these days. Some people here in Russia do claim this.

 Long live the king...Putin!  ::

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## ReDSanchous

I personally don't think he is the only person in Russia to blame for the outrageous stats. Putin's not that bad, I believe. Not as bad as he's portrayed outside Russia.

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## charlestonian

Check this out ya'll http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 2/007.html

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## ReDSanchous

To be honest, I haven't heard of this story! The article's very brief, I think, to develop a good understanding of the story. Has anyone heard anything of that journalist? Maybe, it's just me watching very little news nowadays...
Even though I don't know much about htis case, I would say that she might claim whatever she pleases but I'm already starting to think that the idea of leaving Russia through political asylum simply because you're a jounalist might soon become very popular with those who are not content with what they have in Russia and wishing to go to a better place. Again though, these are all my tentative conclusions.

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## charlestonian

> To be honest, I haven't heard of this story! The article's very brief, I think, to develop a good understanding of the story. Has anyone heard anything of that journalist? Maybe, it's just me watching very little news nowadays...
> Even though I don't know much about htis case, I would say that she might claim whatever she pleases but I'm already starting to think that the idea of leaving Russia through political asylum simply because you're a jounalist might soon become very popular with those who are not content with what they have in Russia and wishing to go to a better place. Again though, these are all my tentative conclusions.

 And, if they wish to leave Russia, can you blame them???

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## charlestonian

Putin Blamed in Politkovskaya's Diaries http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 3/018.html

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## Wowik

http://www.mk.ru/numbers/2651/article93896.htm

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## ReDSanchous

> Originally Posted by ReDSanchous  To be honest, I haven't heard of this story! The article's very brief, I think, to develop a good understanding of the story. Has anyone heard anything of that journalist? Maybe, it's just me watching very little news nowadays...
> Even though I don't know much about htis case, I would say that she might claim whatever she pleases but I'm already starting to think that the idea of leaving Russia through political asylum simply because you're a jounalist might soon become very popular with those who are not content with what they have in Russia and wishing to go to a better place. Again though, these are all my tentative conclusions.   And, if they wish to leave Russia, can you blame them???

 I didn't mean that! I reckon everyone has a right to do whatever they want. If for some reason you are not satisfied with your life in your native country, you can make an attempt to immigrate. If you succeed in getting a passport of another country where you think life's better, you're lucky. 
To my way of thinking, too many people leave Russia on financial grounds rather than for fear of getting killed because of their political views.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> http://www.mk.ru/numbers/2651/article93896.htm

 опять Березовский!? У вас только один антикрист, что ли?

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## Оля

> антихрист

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## Wowik

> У вас только один антикрист, что ли?

 Ант́ихрист

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## charlestonian

Flowers and an Appeal for Politkovskaya 
By Nabi Abdullaev / Staff Writer 
About 300 people gathered Saturday on Pushkin Square to commemorate the six-month anniversary of reporter Anna Politkovskaya's death and to call on the authorities to bring her killer to justice. 
Click here to read story http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2 ... 9/002.html

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