# Forum About Russia Culture and History  Moscow Housing

## BJ

I have just watched a really interesting TV program about 'super houses' in Moscow that described the expensive apartments being built and the extravagant dachas arising in the woods around Moscow. However, it made me wonder how much space the average Moscow family now has. The program was talking about  one room apartments but is this actually one room plus bedrooms or just one room to live, eat and sleep? Can anyone suggest what sort of living space the following imaginary (not necessarily average) family would have - father (quite senior in bank), mother ( lecturer at Moscow State) daughter (student at Moscow State) plus one set of grandparents. Is it likely that grandparents would live in same apartment?

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## translationsnmru

> I The program was talking about  one room apartments but is this actually one room plus bedrooms or just one room to live, eat and sleep?

 In Russia, "one-room apartment" typically means one general-purpose room, a bathroom and toilet (sometimes separate, sometimes in the same space), a hall and a kitchen. People usually eat in the kitchen, except on special occasions, so the room is used to live and to sleep in.    

> Can anyone suggest what sort of living space the following imaginary (not necessarily average) family would have - father (quite senior in bank), mother ( lecturer at Moscow State) daughter (student at Moscow State) plus one set of grandparents. Is it likely that grandparents would live in same apartment?

 Well, there are banks and banks, and there are bankers and bankers, you know, but a typical high-ranking executive in a bank would have a nice income and be able to afford a good apartment. If the grandparents actually live with them (which is not too likely, but not impossible either) I'd say such a family would have an apartment of at least 6 or 7 rooms (including bedrooms). Actually, I have seen a smaller family occupying a larger apartment, but that particular family wasn't really typical.

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## BJ

::  Thank you!

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## JB

The apts and dachas you saw on TV are probably not typical of the average income Russian family. I checked into new apt buildings at the end of various metro lines (maybe a 10-20 min marshutka ride to the station) and they are starting at $50000 for a one room flat (1 small living/sleeping room, 1 toilet, 1 bath, kitchen and entry hall). The apts in the city center are renting for $750-$4000 a month depending on age, remont and facilities (parking, security etc are expensive). You can rent apts for much more than $4000 if you want a building with a health spa or other luxury services.
As for dachas, anything that looks like a big house in America is for the rich. Currently they pay little or no taxes on these but the government is talking about starting to tax them which will be very expensive. Also there has been a story on the Moscow news about the rich building dachas in ecologically sensitve or protected areas. It seems all they had to do was give government agencies and inspectors a few "gifts" and their private communities on the lake shore were OK'd.

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## bad manners

> As for dachas, anything that looks like a big house in America is for the rich.

 No Russian house will look like "a big house in America". They may look like big houses for the American rich, though. If a house, in Russia, looks like an American house, it is not a house but a summer cabin. 
The reason is simple: an average "big house in America" is made of something hardly distinguishable from paper affixed to a fragile framework. Houses are not built like that in Russia or anywhere in Europe.

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## BJ

The most revolting house on 'Super Homes' - the program I watched, was a place that rivalled Versailles on the inside but on the outside was incredibly ugly. The guy who'd built it was so paranoid about security that he'd made it look like a laboratory on the outside and had put it in the heart of his factory. On the inside - there was a tennis court, 3 swimming pools and enough gold leaf to sink a battleship. Interestingly there were his and hers bedrooms. Don't the rich sleep together? The beds were so ornate they looked like they belonged in a museum. It was the most revoltingly decorated place I've ever seen. New Russian - it was called. It was as it the more you spent, the more it was desirable. Someone should teach this guy the expression - less is more. Still, he seemed quite personable!

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## translationsnmru

> Interestingly there were his and hers bedrooms. Don't the rich sleep together? The beds were so ornate they looked like they belonged in a museum. It was the most revoltingly decorated place I've ever seen. New Russian - it was called. It was as it the more you spent, the more it was desirable. Someone should teach this guy the expression - less is more. Still, he seemed quite personable!

 Nouveau riches always imitate the nobility  :: . Having separate bedrooms was quite common in many noble families in Russia, which borrowed this custom from France, I believe.  
"New Russians" are notorious for their lack of taste, which has become a subject of hundreds of jokes.

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## VendingMachine

> The apts in the city center are renting for $750-$4000 a month depending on age, remont and facilities (parking, security etc are expensive). You can rent apts for much more than $4000 if you want a building with a health spa or other luxury services.

 Bollocks. You can rent an apartment starting from $150 a month - you have to speak fluent Russian though (or at least show the landlord you're really trying to).   

> As for dachas, anything that looks like a big house in America is for the rich.

 For the rich is what looks like a sodding Castle Anthrax, what looks like a "big house in America" is for Uncle Vanya and his horti-f..ing-cultural pervertions.   

> Currently they pay little or no taxes on these but the government is talking about starting to tax them which will be very expensive.

 Oh yeah? Little or no taxes? What the hell do you know? Stick to inventing and dishing out trivia about your own country. Your clumsy attempts at spinning yarns about Russia are exactly what they are - clumsy attempts. I'm not a billionaire but I own an apartment in St Pete and pay a lot of tax.   

> Also there has been a story on the Moscow news about the rich building dachas in ecologically sensitve or protected areas. It seems all they had to do was give government agencies and inspectors a few "gifts" and their private communities on the lake shore were OK'd.

 Seems. Seems to you or the muckrakers at that despicable rag?  Look, how about we give some "government agencies" a "gift" or two to help you overcome your compulsion to shamelessly lie about my country?

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## solaris

> The reason is simple: an average "big house in America" is made of something hardly distinguishable from paper affixed to a fragile framework. Houses are not built like that in Russia or anywhere in Europe.

 As an engineer working on construction projects in Russia, I would object to the standard of building in Russia being compared to that of the rest of Europe.  The quality of construction works in Russia is frankly shameful, and I'm talking about new buildings as well as old. 
At first this comes as a surprise given the number of 'GOSTs' and 'SNiPs' and other statutory codes which need to be followed during the engineering.  However the emphasis is all about having the right paperwork in place rather than designing decent buildings and employing competent contractors with the necessary equipment and skills for the physical execution of the works. 
You would not believe the number of public bodies which are needed to certify a building design.  Elsewhere in Europe, if you have planning permission to build something, then although you must follow the local rules the actual risk of the building standing-up or falling-down remains with you as the designer throughout its life.   Here in Russia, the attempt is still being made to shift this responsibility onto the state, so everything must be reviewed and signed and countersigned and counter-counter signed, and this process is incredibly long-winded simply because there also appears to be a culture in Russia where no-one wants to accept this responsibility. 
As an example, I saw a simple report dated Mar 2003 which had nine countersignatures, and the last was dated October 2003.  So this process took seven months just to get through a few basic formalities - in the rest of Europe, this could have been done in a few days if someone had walked the document around (and it would only have needed two or three signatures !) 
There's also no driving force to get works completed.  I've been in St P on and off for around 10 months, and the central section of Sredny Prospect on Vasilyevsky Island has been closed all that time, and for some time beforehand, for a simple reconstruction of a few hundred metres of roads and tramways, work that would have taken no more than a month or so anywhere else.  And looking at the lack of progress, I can see it's still at least one year away from completion.  I'm assured this is not due to budget constraints, and that the city of St P actually returned a budget surplus last year.  A budget surplus (!!!) -  in a city with an infrastructure in such a poor condition as this simply beggars belief. 
The temptation is to think that all of this bureaucracy, and taking one's time with dozens of reviews at every stage etc, would actually result in better control and safer, higher-quality construction.  However, in reality the exact opposite is true.  Buildings are poorly designed, extremely poorly built and finished, and there's also a high human cost.  There is no safety culture here at all, avoidable accidents and injuries are commonplace and human life appears to be very cheap on construction sites. 
So, I'm not an American, but give me a US building from '....paper affixed to a fragile framework.....' anytime.  Chances are it will have been properly designed, built to a high standard and that no-one was killed during its construction.

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## Scorpio

> As an engineer working on construction projects in Russia, I would object to the standard of building in Russia being compared to that of the rest of Europe.  The quality of construction works in Russia is frankly shameful, and I'm talking about new buildings as well as old.

 I don't know much about new style construction, but the old building (especially brick ones) are GOOD. Even the 5-floor building (brick, not panel ones) build in 1950-60's are still in good condition, do not need reconstruction, and probably will stay for another 50 years.

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## bad manners

> Originally Posted by bad manners  The reason is simple: an average "big house in America" is made of something hardly distinguishable from paper affixed to a fragile framework. Houses are not built like that in Russia or anywhere in Europe.   As an engineer working on construction projects in Russia, I would object to the standard of building in Russia being compared to that of the rest of Europe.

 I was not talking about Russian vs European. I was not talking about quality, either. I was talking about paper walls, which do not exist anywhere in the world -- except in America, and, traditionally, in Japan. And in some third world countries, perhaps.   

> So, I'm not an American, but give me a US building from '....paper affixed to a fragile framework.....' anytime.  Chances are it will have been properly designed, built to a high standard and that no-one was killed during its construction.

 ... somebody will be killed when it is 40 below zero with a few tons of snow and ice on the roof. With the water supply and sewerage frozen out weeks before that, which implies frozen crap all over that properly designed house. High standard, indeed.

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## bad manners

> As an example, I saw a simple report dated Mar 2003 which had nine countersignatures, and the last was dated October 2003.  So this process took seven months just to get through a few basic formalities - in the rest of Europe, this could have been done in a few days if someone had walked the document around (and it would only have needed two or three signatures !)

 The second statement is a lie. In most countries in Europe, that would take a few months, too. In most countries, you need an approval by the local authorities, and that implies getting that through the city hall, which in turn must have a quorum that will vote favourably. And they will not assemble and vote just like that.   

> There's also no driving force to get works completed.  I've been in St P on and off for around 10 months, and the central section of Sredny Prospect on Vasilyevsky Island has been closed all that time, and for some time beforehand, for a simple reconstruction of a few hundred metres of roads and tramways, work that would have taken no more than a month or so anywhere else.

 In how many countries have you seen a complete revamp of a few hundred metres of a major thoroughfare with tram lines (sic!) that is exposed to extreme climatic conditions done in one month or so?

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## JB

VM, don't you live in St. Petersburg? How do you know so much about Moscow housing? As for apts for $150/month, there are lots of advertisements for these but they are just a scam. You call the agent's number (usually a cell phone) and you are told you must pay the rent first and then you will be given the address.  ::   Or you must pay a fee for a list of available apts (which of course don't exist). And since my Russian husband speaks fluent accent free Russian, he does all the talking when checking out our housing options.
And the stories about taxes and bribing building inspectors by wealthy dacha owners are from Moscow newspapers and TV news programs. These stories have been on the Moscow news all summer so you had better call them up and tell them you want them to stop "shamelessly lying".
Do many of the new dachas look like American houses? Well I guess that is a matter of personal opinion. My opinion is yes, they look like a typical large house in a wealthy American neighborhood. 
Bad manners,maybe you can tell us how you know so much about American building standards? And since housing construction styles, rules, and laws differ in every state please specify which state has homes built of "paper affixed to a fragile framework". And roofs collapsing and sewers bursting at 40 below? Many places in America have winters just as cold as Russia (with just as much snow) and the houses have been standing for hundreds of years.

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## Kamion

> VM, don't you live in St. Petersburg? How do you know so much about Moscow housing? As for apts for $150/month, there are lots of advertisements for these but they are just a scam. You call the agent's number (usually a cell phone) and you are told you must pay the rent first and then you will be given the address.   Or you must pay a fee for a list of available apts (which of course don't exist). And since my Russian husband speaks fluent accent free Russian, he does all the talking when checking out our housing options.
> And the stories about taxes and bribing building inspectors by wealthy dacha owners are from Moscow newspapers and TV news programs. These stories have been on the Moscow news all summer so you had better call them up and tell them you want them to stop "shamelessly lying".
> Do many of the new dachas look like American houses? Well I guess that is a matter of personal opinion. My opinion is yes, they look like a typical large house in a wealthy American neighborhood. 
> Bad manners,maybe you can tell us how you know so much about American building standards? And since housing construction styles, rules, and laws differ in every state please specify which state has homes built of "paper affixed to a fragile framework". And roofs collapsing and sewers bursting at 40 below? Many places in America have winters just as cold as Russia (with just as much snow) and the houses have been standing for hundreds of years.

 Big mistake, big mistake. Now you have not only woken the beast, you did that with your first post, but now you

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## bad manners

> which state has homes built of "paper affixed to a fragile framework".

 Look around where you are now.   

> Many places in America have winters just as cold as Russia (with just as much snow)

 Such as?   

> and the houses have been standing for hundreds of years.

 ... and look exactly like those paper things, right?

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## solaris

> The second statement is a lie. In most countries in Europe, that would take a few months, too. In most countries, you need an approval by the local authorities, and that implies getting that through the city hall, which in turn must have a quorum that will vote favourably. And they will not assemble and vote just like that.

 . 
If you'd read what I'd written then you had have seen that I mentioned that planning permission was initally necessary, via 'City Hall' as you call it.  What I'm talking about is during the engineering of the building, long after the planning permission has been granted.   

> In how many countries have you seen a complete revamp of a few hundred metres of a major thoroughfare with tram lines (sic!) that is exposed to extreme climatic conditions done in one month or so?

 It's called Project Planning - an alien concept here, unfortunately - by the way, the local guys in the office here tell me this road has actually been closed for years for these works !!  And since when has St Petersburg had 'extreme climatic conditions', by any standard ?  It's not in Siberia. 
Don't understand the (sic) here - what do you call them in Russia or wherever if not tram lines ??? 
And I need someone from the States to comment on this, but wasn't several miles of the Santa Monica freeway totally rebuilt in only a few months after an earthquake around 10 years or so ago ?  Now that's what I'd call a 'major thoroughfare'.

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## Scorpio

> VM, don't you live in St. Petersburg? How do you know so much about Moscow housing? As for apts for $150/month, there are lots of advertisements for these but they are just a scam. You call the agent's number (usually a cell phone) and you are told you must pay the rent first and then you will be given the address.   Or you must pay a fee for a list of available apts (which of course don't exist). And since my Russian husband speaks fluent accent free Russian, he does all the talking when checking out our housing options.

 And why read an advertisements (in boulevard papers, I guess) instead of going to ANY decent realty agency?

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## bad manners

> The second statement is a lie. In most countries in Europe, that would take a few months, too. In most countries, you need an approval by the local authorities, and that implies getting that through the city hall, which in turn must have a quorum that will vote favourably. And they will not assemble and vote just like that.
> 			
> 		  . 
> If you'd read what I'd written then you had have seen that I mentioned that planning permission was initally necessary, via 'City Hall' as you call it.  What I'm talking about is during the engineering of the building, long after the planning permission has been granted.

 Oh, now you're not saying that it takes "2-3 days" to get the initial paperwork done in Europe. All that you need to do now is compare the total time it takes to get all paperwork done in Europe and Russia. In my experience, it can easily take a year to go through all the gyrations in Europe. Which may include such things as "Hello, has Mr Farber signed my papers?" -- "Oh, sorry, no, and he just left for a two-month vacation" -- "Then could someone else sign those papers, say his deputy Mr Grosser?" -- "In theory, he could, but Mr Farber dislikes when this kind of papers gets signed by someone else, so Mr Grosser will not do it" -- "Does that mean the papers will not be signed until Mr Farber is back?" -- "Unfortunately, yes, sir." Of course, when you know Mr Farber or Mr Grosser _personally_, and better yet happen to be a _good friend_ of them, then you might do it faster, sometimes a lot faster.   

> [quote:lrw5x9kn]
> In how many countries have you seen a complete revamp of a few hundred metres of a major thoroughfare with tram lines (sic!) that is exposed to extreme climatic conditions done in one month or so?

 It's called Project Planning - an alien concept here, unfortunately - by the way, the local guys in the office here tell me this road has actually been closed for years for these works !!  And since when has St Petersburg had 'extreme climatic conditions', by any standard ?  It's not in Siberia.[/quote:lrw5x9kn]
Indeed. The climatic conditions in St. Petersburg, Russia are just as pleasant and nice as in Santa Monica, California.   

> Don't understand the (sic) here - what do you call them in Russia or wherever if not tram lines ???

 The (sic!) was to emphasise the presence of the tram lines, something that you missed completely. They make road construction orders of magnitude more difficult.   

> And I need someone from the States to comment on this, but wasn't several miles of the Santa Monica freeway totally rebuilt in only a few months after an earthquake around 10 years or so ago ?  Now that's what I'd call a 'major thoroughfare'.

 Tram lines, routine 30 degrees below zero in winter, freezes and thaws, salt on the road? Having reading comprehension problems, solaris?

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## JB

bad manners, in answer to your questions;
places in USA with a "chilly" winter are Alaska, Montana, North Dakota, etc,etc
"paper houses" may be found somewhere in the US (perhaps as part of an artistic expo) but each state has laws that dictate safety standards and requirements specific to their climate and natural hazards
In California we have laws that allow buildings of any kind that are reinforced to withstand EARTHQUAKES. Most houses are a combo of wood and plaster construction because not only are they still standing after a big quake but they are cool, easy to maintain, and best suited to our climate (dry and warm)
There are brick and stone block buildings but the steel reinforcement required for these is expensive. We have many older buildings from 100-300 years ago that are brick or adobe that are still in use but if a big quake hits them they will be a pile of ash. So the law requires that these be reinforced with steel if it is a public building. We also have a few buildings that the Russians built in Northern California that are wood and still standing (and still being used).
And yes the Santa Monica Freeway was rebuilt quickly (and to higher, safer standards) after an earthquake.  But we do have an advantage of a warm dry climate so You will have to compare Russian building practices with a state that has a similar climate (Alaska, Montana, North Dakota, etc)

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## bad manners

> "paper houses" may be found somewhere in the US (perhaps as part of an artistic expo) but each state has laws that dictate safety standards and requirements specific to their climate and natural hazards
> In California we have laws that allow buildings of any kind that are reinforced to withstand EARTHQUAKES. Most houses are a combo of wood and plaster construction because not only are they still standing after a big quake but they are cool, easy to maintain, and best suited to our climate (dry and warm)

 I call them "paper houses" because, like I said, the material is hardly distinguishable from paper. I mentioned a fragile framework, too. And you do not see houses like that except in America and Asia. So what is wrong with my statement?   

> There are brick and stone block buildings but the steel reinforcement required for these is expensive.

 Just like houses that must sustain 40 below zero.   

> And yes the Santa Monica Freeway was rebuilt quickly (and to higher, safer standards) after an earthquake.

 You might want to have a look at the numerous ad hoc decrees issued by the governor to facilitate that process. As far as I know, that has never been duplicated anywhere in the US.   

> You will have to compare Russian building practices with a state that has a similar climate (Alaska, Montana, North Dakota, etc)

 I actually asked you to compare a typical house you can find in those states with a typical house in California. You ignored that.

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## JB

Please explain what these materials are that are "hardly distinguishable from paper". If you could tell us exactly where in the US (city, state) these can be found and what exactly do you mean by "a fragil framework" I will try to answer your questions. 
I have owned and remodeled many houses in California (and had one house custom built) and have never run across anything that resembles "a paper house with a fragil framework". Houses in California are required to withstand earthquakes, fires, floods and landslides. In the mountains they are designed to withstand heavy snow and freezing temperatures.
And as for comparing housing laws from one state to another, that would take up way too much space on this forum and bore everyone to tears. In a nutshell, states with snow have housing codes to make the occupants safe from all the problems snow can cause.  States with earthquakes have laws to keep people safe from buildings collapsing during earthquakes.  Which means your more likely to find a solid brick house in Montana than in Alaska.  ::  
And the government passing emergency legislation to rapidly repair a city after a natural disaster is a good thing. In America the federal government agents show up quickly with lots of money for the state and for individual residents after a natural disaster. So everyone gets the repairs done quickly and can get back to a normal life.
Does this happen in Russia?

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## bad manners

> Please explain what these materials are that are "hardly distinguishable from paper". If you could tell us exactly where in the US (city, state) these can be found and what exactly do you mean by "a fragil framework" I will try to answer your questions.

 What questions? The only questions that I had in this thread were "such as", which you have answered satisfactorily, and "and look exactly like those paper things, right?", which you have not answered. If you feel like answering the second question, you can substitute "paper thing" with "typical house in California".   

> Houses in California are required to withstand earthquakes, fires, floods and landslides.

 I do not remember about earthquakes, floods and landslides, but a recent fire in California consumed a lot of houses. Built to a high fire safety standard, aren't they?   

> Which means your more likely to find a solid brick house in Montana than in Alaska.

 It was your statement about some mythical houses in Russia that looked like "big houses in America". All your further clarifications simply confirm that no such thing exists.   

> And the government passing emergency legislation to rapidly repair a city after a natural disaster is a good thing. In America the federal government agents show up quickly with lots of money for the state and for individual residents after a natural disaster. So everyone gets the repairs done quickly and can get back to a normal life.
> Does this happen in Russia?

 Yep. 
Except that the original statement was about some road construction in St. Petersburg, Russia, which was not a result of a natural disaster. And that is now being compared with the best American performance following a natural disaster. Can it be more biased?

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## JB

When were you last in California (and what is your experience in home construction)?
A fire storm will consume everything in it's path and melt solid steel into a puddle. But a lot of houses in last years fires were spared because they were built to the newer fire codes.
Those mythical big houses in Russia are in my mythical Moscow neighborhood (Altufevo).

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## bad manners

> Those mythical big houses in Russia are in my mythical Moscow neighborhood (Altufevo).

 "a combo of wood and plaster construction"?

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## JB

The framing on the new ones under construction is wood, some are using cement block and/or brick for outside walls. Those that are completed on the outside but not the interiors have workers covered in plaster carrying what looks like tools for plastering walls, walking in and out of the houses. 
On the completed homes some of the outsides are finished in a smooth or textured material that looks like stucco. Some appear to to be all wood replicas or stylized copies of historical Russian country houses and one looks like a log cabin (a very large 2 story log cabin).

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## bad manners

Is it simply a layer of plaster (or should I say sheetrock?) attached to a skeleton-like frame or is it plaster attached to a thick wooden or brick wall?

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## solaris

> The (sic!) was to emphasise the presence of the tram lines, something that you missed completely. They make road construction orders of magnitude more difficult.

 Orders of magnitude ?  A 600 mm RC slab on grade ?  Get an engineering degree.   

> routine 30 degrees below zero in winter

 Do you actually know where St Petersburg is ?  Get a map, too

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## bad manners

> The (sic!) was to emphasise the presence of the tram lines, something that you missed completely. They make road construction orders of magnitude more difficult.
> 			
> 		  Orders of magnitude ?  A 600 mm RC slab on grade ?  Get an engineering degree.

 I could. Costs only a few grand. Is it how you got it?   

> [quote:26dcp38r]routine 30 degrees below zero in winter

 Do you actually know where St Petersburg is ?  Get a map, too[/quote:26dcp38r]
I don't need that. I spend a lot of time in that city. In winters, too. 
Any other biased comparisons?

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## solaris

> I could. Costs only a few grand. Is it how you got it?

 Unfortunately not.  Most places you have to actually do some work....   

> don't need that. I spend a lot of time in that city. In winters, too.  
> Any other biased comparisons?

 Biased comparisons ?  That's rich from someone claiming that St P is 'routinely 30 degrees below', and who says he's been there - or does anything below zero feel cold to you ?

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## bad manners

> Biased comparisons ?  That's rich from someone claiming that St P is 'routinely 30 degrees below', and who says he's been there - or does anything below zero feel cold to you ?

 http://meteo.infospace.ru/wcarch/html/e ... 2&x=10&y=9 
31-Dec-2002: -26.0
01-Jan-2003: -26.5
02-Jan-2003: -23.8
03-Jan-2003: -24.1
04-Jan-2003: -21.2
05-Jan-2003: -21.0
06-Jan-2003: -25.4
07-Jan-2003: -26.5 
25 below zero and colder, in the city centre. In the northern part, it was a few degrees colder. And that was just a week that _I remember_ it was cold, you can find many such weeks (and colder) any year. The average winter temperature may be higher, but there are a few weeks each year when it is very cold. Another nasty aspect of St. Petersburg's weather is that everything freezes and then thaws dozens of times, which essentially explodes the roads from inside. Having tram lines makes it a lot worse, because the thermal expansion of rails is significantly greater than that of the adjacent road; plus the gaps between the rails and the road are easily accessible to water. 
I do not see a major difference between "-25 and colder" and "-30". I do see a major difference between "-25 and colder, wet climate" and "always above zero, dry climate".

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## JB

bad manners, you need to build a few houses before you start asking dumb questions about sheetrock and plaster. What exactly is a "thick" wooden wall? Logs? Layers of boards? And the wood framing on a house IS it's skeleton. And what do you mean by plaster "attached" to a brick wall?

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## bad manners

> bad manners, you need to build a few houses before you start asking dumb questions about sheetrock and plaster. What exactly is a "thick" wooden wall? Logs? Layers of boards? And the wood framing on a house IS it's skeleton. And what do you mean by plaster "attached" to a brick wall?

 My questions make no sense for you because you have no idea how houses are built outside the US. In the US, it is mostly sheetrock attached to a skeleton-like frame. In Europe, such frames are only used for very large buildings, not for one-family houses. The basic element of a small to average European (Russian) house is the wall, _solid_ and _thick_, one-two feet thick in fact. 
The basic difference between a European and an American house can be easily seen when you want to attach something heavy to a wall. In Europe, all you need to do is make sure there are no wires or pipes where you're going to drill or simply pound a nail in.

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## solaris

> Having tram lines makes it a lot worse, because the thermal expansion of rails is significantly greater than that of the adjacent road

 http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=1317 
For your enlightenment.... 
'....Steel and concrete complement each other in many ways. For example, they have similar coefficients of thermal expansion so preventing the problems the Romans had with bronze.....'

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## bad manners

Since when are the intra-city roads made of concrete _entirely_? Engineering degree, eh?

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## JB

Well bad manners why don't you come on over to my Moscow neighborhood and tell all those guys putting up wood frames that they don't know how to build a house in Russia. I'm sure they'll be glad to rebuild those (large, single family homes) according to your directions.  ::

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## bad manners

Have your vision checked, JB. Being unable to distinguish between a house and a summer cabin should be alarming for you. Being unable to distinguish between a paper screen and a two-foot wall should be even more so.

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## JB

On your reccomendation I had my vision checked, and was certified by the doctor as definately able to tell the difference between a house for year round use and a summer dacha. But I'm still looking for those paper houses you keep talking about. Maybe you could post a picture?

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## scotcher

Just watch the news over the weekend. I'm sure Frances intends to show us all exactly how strong and well-built American houses are when she hits Florida tomorrow  ::

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## JB

Maybe we could take a load of TNT and place a few sticks in the strongest houses in 25 different countries and prove once and for all that nobody can build a house that is indestructable!  ::

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## bad manners

You do have a problem with your vision, JB. Or else I don't know how you could miss the bit about wall thickness. Well, there is an alternative, though. It is either your vision or your brains.

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## JB

Nope, I went to the neurosurgeon and he said the only problem with my brain was that I was lacking  the neuro receptors necessary to avoid internet conversations with fools.

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## JB

How do you know so much about Moscow housing bad manners? Do you live there? Work there? Build houses there? (darn, I wish I could get a neuron transplant!)

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## bad manners

So how many times more are you going to evade answering the question on wall thickness, JB?

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## JB

I will "evade" the topic of wall thickness for eternity bad manners because discussing anyhing with you rapidly degenerates into a boring contest of you trying to "prove" that you are the only authority on anything and everything about Russia. The truth must be that all of us who live in Russia, visit Russia, or have any thoughts or observations about Russia are stupid, lying, morons. I am surprised that you are so tolerant of our silly discussions. Yet you continue to "evade" answering any questions that would give us insite into your knowledge and authority on Russia.

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## bad manners

Quite remarkable. I must prove my "authority" on Russia when I merely ask about wall thickness. Nice try, JB.

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## DDT

Let me ask you this, Bad Manners. 
 I am visiting family right now and they have just bought a brand new Condominium.  ..............I can hear the guy upstairs...... peeing, everytime. Do you have this type of "entertainment" in Russia?

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## bad manners

I am not in Russia, and I do not have this type of entertainment. I can sometimes hear extremely loud sounds emitted from adjacent apartments in an apartment block... peeing, thankfully, is not an extremely loud sound. When I was in Russian apartment blocks, I had similar experience: only extremely loud sounds could cross apartment boundaries.

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## JJ

> Let me ask you this, Bad Manners. 
>  I am visiting family right now and they have just bought a brand new Condominium.  ..............I can hear the guy upstairs...... peeing, everytime. Do you have this type of "entertainment" in Russia?

 How can they live like that?  I lived in so-called "старые дома" - "the old-buildings", they were made about 50-60 years ago, there was absolutely quiet, so my new apartments a little bit surprised me. When I moved to my new apartments I was disappointed with loud sounds from everywhere - in the midnight I even could hear slightly like my neighbors shouting at each other (actually they are good neighbors), that's all, but hear peeing...  ::  I have no words! I live in a standart apartment block made in the 1996, so the sound proofing is not so perfect like in the old or the new ones.

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## DDT

I don't know a whole lot about building and maybe they do have earthquake codes here but  I saw this condominium complex as it was being built a few years  ago,  while visiting here.  I thought to myself, "Who the hell would buy a cracker box like that to live in?". I could see the cheap materials that were being used. The plywood was at least as good as card board.   Well here I am staying in it right now. The fact is they all seem to be like this these days.  I was talking about this  several years ago with two friends of mine who had come to the US from Scotland. They were roofers by trade. They used to say that "if they built houses like this back in Scotland they would be condemmned for human habitation".  I moved into an apartment once and the walls were so thin that I moved out again  the very next morning. And this was in Los angeles. So much for earthquake proof.

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## JB

I would love to find an affordable "old home" in Moscow! We live in a 1980's jumbo-plex with bad pipes and thin walls.  Every morning we hear the neighbors arguments, howling dogs, and closet doors squeaking. If anyone knows of a flat for sale in an old (1940's-50's)building, let me know.

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## JJ

> I would love to find an affordable "old home" in Moscow! We live in a 1980's jumbo-plex with bad pipes and thin walls.  Every morning we hear the neighbors arguments, howling dogs, and closet doors squeaking.

 Maybe you lived in so-called "коммуналка", in the one big apartment for several famileis? I lived in my own apartment, the room walls there were made of bricks and they are about 20+ cm thick + plaster. There was no sound from another apartments.

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## JB

Thank God it isn't a communal apartment. I would have jumped out the window (we're on the 22 floor) long ago. We still live there but put it up for sale and are looking for a new flat to buy. I think it was just built cheaply and everything is finnally falling apart. (Or maybe it was always like this?)

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## bad manners

Didn't you say that you were looking for housing in LA rather than in Moscow?

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## JB

Hubby is in Moscow selling the flat and looking for new, I am in LA visiting family and checking out the housing market. Unfortunately both are VERY expensive and we are not having any luck. We may have to find another country.  ::

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## bad manners

Well, expensive in Moscow is a fraction of expensive in LA. On the other hand you might get a mortgage loan in LA, which you cannot in Moscow. What a choice. How about selling the flat in Moscow and relocating to somewhere else in Russia, where you can buy a palace for the same money?

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## JB

We are looking at some of the small cities outside of Moscow, but riding the electrichka to work everyday will get to be a drag in a very short time.  And LA prices have gone throught the roof this summer. We may have to wait a few months until both markets cool down.

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