# Forum About Russia Politics  question on how russians dress compared to americans

## TaintedDoughnuts

a friend of mine who used to live in russia told me once that russians can spot an american on sight just by looking at them and how they dress themselves.  is this true? i dont really find it hard to believe, i was just wondering what exactly makes us stand out? how do russians dress and what do americans do differently? i think someone told me not tucking our shirts in is something americans do different. is this true? thanks a bunch!

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## Dogboy182

Big cameras, rude manners, disrespect, and just generally lower IQ's i think are some of the first things they spot.

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## ekalin

Generally, natives can identify tourists easily just by looking in any country... 
When americans (well, not only americans) come to tropical countries, they tend to wear some T-shirts that only tourists could use... And they are always sun burnt.

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## TaintedDoughnuts

*sighs at dogboy*  i knew i should have put a disclaimer at the bottom not to include negative stereotypes, but i had hoped people werent so narrow minded on this forum.  you're sterotyping millions of people from a few idiots who only care about themselves.  lets try this again.  excluding tourists, and only concentrating on americans who travel to russia for other reasons such as education, business, family, etc., what do americans do differently in their dress and the way they look/carry themselves?
P.S. thanks for the reply ekalin : ) thats the kind of things i was wondering about, although not the only thing

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## z80

I think its peoples attitudes .  
People from different countries have very different attitudes, and some times they clash, IE Germans in Australia. 
Australians don't give a shit, Germans want everything to be perfect.

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## TaintedDoughnuts

lol yeah i think thats true. how many Germans are there in Australia anyway?

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## z80

Too bloody many. They come here for holidays. Is it just me or a Germans really racesist?

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## Dogboy182

> *sighs at dogboy*  i knew i should have put a disclaimer at the bottom not to include negative stereotypes, but i had hoped people werent so narrow minded on this forum.  you're sterotyping millions of people from a few idiots who only care about themselves.  lets try this again.  excluding tourists, and only concentrating on americans who travel to russia for other reasons such as education, business, family, etc., what do americans do differently in their dress and the way they look/carry themselves?
> P.S. thanks for the reply ekalin : ) thats the kind of things i was wondering about, although not the only thing

 
 wow lets just ignore everything negative in the world, lets just put everything bad out of site and just push it away. even if your friend looks dumb just lie! tell them they look good. i'm so tired of daisy growers sugar coating everything, and not looking at the whole picture. it's the same soccer moms that love to ban video games that are so bad because it's wrong to steal cars or say "butt" in a video game. well, i say america is retarted, im tired of retarted americans, and i wish my own country wasn't so retarted.  it's freakin embarassing.  ::

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## z80

haha, dogboy, I think you may be on to somthing there.

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## Scorpio

> a friend of mine who used to live in russia told me once that russians can spot an american on sight just by looking at them and how they dress themselves.  is this true? i dont really find it hard to believe, i was just wondering what exactly makes us stand out? how do russians dress and what do americans do differently? i think someone told me not tucking our shirts in is something americans do different. is this true? thanks a bunch!

 If you'll smile 24 hours a day, anybody will know you're american   ::

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## JB

Russian fashion is much more up to date and european in comparison to American style. The Russian girls here are always dressed well, never sloppy. Even in casual clothes they look like a fashion statement.

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## raskolnik

from the few russians ive seen on tv and pictures it seems that the women, well kinda dress like guys a bit. the prime example would be the button up shirt, saying that my exposure is very limited

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## JB

The only place I see the girls dress even close to conservative is at church. But even there it is common for the babushki to chase them down and yell at them for being too revealing.

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## Dogboy182

Jealous sea hags

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## JB

It's their job to protect The Faith.  (They're rewarded by being indestructable. You should see them stick their hands into the center of a blazing candle stand and pull out the melted ones without even getting singed!)

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## jejik

1) Most (of cause not everyone) of Russian women always use cosmetics (even on the beach) and they think a lot about how they look. 
2) Women look after their man (husbands and sons) too. 
And my personal opinion: when I was in Thailand we where sitting on the bench near the shop -- the most dirty and untidy tourist always speak English. I don't know why.  
but... 
Americans that live in Russia for a lot time (I have a lunch every day with a group of them) differ from Russians only by the smile.

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## Dogboy182

i went to my russian friend sergeys house last friday, i saw his great grandparetns, i smiled at them when i met them... man i felt like an idiot... the whole freakin room was all awkward. but it seems like russians at my school smile alot, well more than normal, at least, to me anyways.

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## woolliamser

I'm English, not American, but when I was in Russia I noticed that at first everyone immediately knew I was a foreigner. When I bought some clothes in Russia that changed and people actually stopped me to ask directions etc. 
The main difference I noticed was that the Russians tended to wear darker colour clothes (in my beige skirt and red coat I was obviously a foreigner, in a black skirt and black coat I could be more Russian). 
I also noticed that the Russian women did wear makeup on occasions I wouldn't bother. They were extremely smart, neat and attractive.  
In Britain I can usually spot American tourists because they're the only ones wearing shorts in London. They seem to have different hair styles too, and walk with more confidence, somehow. The British usually only wear shorts when they are the loud tourists in southern Spain!   ::  Germans have a unique shape for glasses! 
Ok, ok, stereotypes: but there are genuine differences between different nationalities, caused by their history, their geographical location, their language etc. It would be awful if we all became the same, some average culture. Of course there are individuals who don't obey the stereotypes: stereotypes are based on an average of the entire population, they're only wrong if you assume they apply to individuals or if they are out-dated!

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## Aaa

...just like most Americans can spot foreigners here in the U.S.: 
1) We can smell you!!!  Americans consider most of the rest of the world to be hygeine-challenged.  Even the japanese, who are cleanliness fanatics, don't brush their teeth as well as Americans. 
Besides, average American food is bland compared to most of the world.  We don't usually reek of cabbage and onions and garlic and curry and chilies and leeks and limburger and vinegar.  We eat chicken and potatoes and carrots, hamburgers and hot dogs, ham sandwiches and bibb lettuce salads with thousand island.  We don't sweat out our food!  
2)  Smile!  How are those teeth?  American teeth, for the most part, are straight, white, and clean.  No tartar.  We pay a lot of dentists a lot of money.  
3)  Got an ashtray?  Americans don't smoke.  Those who do are careful about where they smoke, and do their best to disguise the odor.  
4)  Stand the **** back!!  American personal space during conversation is approximately 120% to 300% that of other countries.  In polite conversation with someone you don't wish to mate with, you shouldn't be able to smell their lunch when you talk!  
5)  I don't get the "unstylish" or "low IQ" comments.  Americans are brash, and uncaring about other cultures, but low IQ?  Unstylish?  There is a certain segment of the American population which adheres to what we affectionately call "Eurotrash" style, where you wear black and little else.  But beyond that, we go with fashion moguls such as Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, and Donna Karan.  Preppy is in in the U.S.  So is pop.  Both are colorful and anti-"Eurotrash".  So we end up sticking out, so what?  It's a two-way street.

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## mike

Man, I must be a weirdo.  Except #s 3 and 4 none of those apply to me   ::  I haven't been to the dentist since I was 11, I don't even look at what clothes I own, and I consider the spice rack to be the single most important part of the house.  And I probably am going to get a pretty bad reaction from you Puritans, but on weekends I don't even shower or change my Friday clothes unless I have to go somewhere.  That's Mike's time, damn it. 
That thing about personal space is really funny.  Where did those percentages come from?  I keep imagining like two people having a casual conversation and then a scientist appears out of nowhere and is like "EXCUSE ME, FOLKS" and sticks a tape measure between their faces and jots down a bunch of notes.

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## JB

Mike, PLEASE go to the dentist!!!!  ::

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## mike

Psh, what good's a dentist.  Pay $50 for a checkup so he can discover all the cavities I already know are there and charge me another few hundred to fill them.  They're worse than doctors, and I haven't been to one of _them_ since I had to get a physical and immunization for high school-- and even that was only because it cost 50 cents at the public clinic.  I'm going to raise my kids on dental hygiene the same way I was:  brush twice a day and that's good enough.  If you have a cavity and it's a loosening baby tooth, close your eyes and squeeze something tight with both hands while I wrap my forefingers in toilet paper and get to work.  Otherwise stop whining about it.

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## JB

Look in the mirror and picture yourself with no teeth, or gold teeth (very fashionable in Russia).

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## russkayalove

Too many American women dress like men (wear jeans and t-shirt).  I can't even wear a decent skirt without getting stared at or whistled at! I wish more American women would dress like ladies so that the rest of us who like to would not look like we're trying too hard, or we're overly dressed.

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## JB

russkayalove,
So you dress like a girl but get mad when men notice? Perhaps you should just wear the baggy jeans and t-shirt.

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## raskolnik

along with fashion trends and such comes (usially) hair style. thus how clued up are russians there   ::   it seems that guys are VERY keen on the side parting, thoughts?

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## TaintedDoughnuts

> wow lets just ignore everything negative in the world, lets just put everything bad out of site and just push it away. even if your friend looks dumb just lie! tell them they look good. i'm so tired of daisy growers sugar coating everything, and not looking at the whole picture. it's the same soccer moms that love to ban video games that are so bad because it's wrong to steal cars or say "butt" in a video game. well, i say america is retarted, im tired of retarted americans, and i wish my own country wasn't so retarted.  it's freakin embarassing.

 wow you obviously have some pent up frustration...chill out, man.  i was just saying by not including negative stereotypes that i didnt want people to go off on a tangent about american tourist stereotypes.  ive already heard those things a million times and i just wanted to know what was different about the average, at least somewhat polite and nonobtrusive american going to russia for reasons other than travel.  i in no way wanted to ignore everything negative. far from it. i *wanted* you to include negative stuff, just as long as its not a bunch of untrue crap like big cameras and disregard for everything around them.  instead of saying _negative stereotypes_ i should have said something else, but i didnt expect someone to explode on me about it.  anyway i agree that a lot of america is retarted.  im embarrased to go anywhere out of america because i know all the stupid things america has done that we are known for.  thats actually part of the reason i was asking this question, because i want at least try to show a few people when i go to russia that not all americans are those idiots with big cameras and loud mouths.  oh well everyone probably already stopped reading already so im going to stop.

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## russkayalove

> russkayalove, 
> So you dress like a girl but get mad when men notice? Perhaps you should just wear the baggy jeans and t-shirt

 . 
No, I don't get mad, maybe I shouldn't have added that exclamation mark in there. The stairing is just annoying, especially if its by other women. The whistleing, well that's actually kindof flattering, but either way, alot of American men just need to get control of themselves. It's not like I wear a skirt every day, but my main point is that I wish more American women would dress nicely, supposedly like how the Russian women do (and the ones I know do).  Maybe then the men here wouldn't bust a nut every time they saw a woman looking like a woman!  ::   ::  
Tainteddounuts, don't worry about Dogboy, you'll have to get used to him. He's just a raging, underaged alcoholic. (JK Dogboy)   ::

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## z80

> 2) Women look after their man (husbands and sons) too.

 Jejik, Do the men look after there women right too (Obviously generalizing a bit here). 
Just in some counties I have noticed that the woman is expected to look after her husband, but the man doesn't seam to cherish his wife or look after her too much. 
People like that pi$$ me off.

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## Dogboy182

Русскаялюбовь, Покажи мне картина твоя. тогда я сообщу тебя  если ты красивая или ни.   ::

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## z80

Like we were saying, there a lot more rude than other people. 
And dogboy, if you only chose go go out with people that, in your opinion, look good, you will miss out on so much in life!

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## Dogboy182

ohh trust me, i have lowered my standards for girl, like водил под землей... i still can't get a girlfriend. did u see my pic? i think thats half the problem.

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## z80

Hell you are an ugly bugger arn't you !! But I bet I can beat that !!! Wait till I get home and put my photo up there. I should be made to put a warning sign on my self so as not to scare young kids.

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## jejik

> Originally Posted by jejik  2) Women look after their man (husbands and sons) too.   Jejik, Do the men look after there women right too (Obviously generalizing a bit here). 
> Just in some counties I have noticed that the woman is expected to look after her husband, but the man doesn't seam to cherish his wife or look after her too much. 
> People like that pi$$ me off.

 I mean that they look after their appearance, but, if you want to know, my husband and my father often say me what I must wear, especially if we will meet his frends or  collegues.

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## z80

A man telling a woman what to wear? That'll be the day. 
Woman have much better dress sence than men.

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## z80

So would a woman be considered an equal to her husband?

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## jejik

The woman must be pretty. And who knows how to do it it better then a man?

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## z80

The woman.  
Trust me on that one. 
So whould you / Most Russian woman concider them selfs equal to there husbands?

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## jejik

You didn't understand me at all, why equal? I must be pretty... the friends of my husband must see that I am pretty. Is it bad?

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## z80

I don't know.  
Does your husband have to be hansome when you take him to met people? Do you get to tell him what to ware then?

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## jejik

Yes, why not?   ::  I think it differ foreigners from Russians.  ::

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## z80

Oh good. 
Yes it's diferent every where in the world. 
Speaking for my self and the majority of Australia men, I think we can dress our selfs not very good.

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## JB

Jejik, 
What happens when you get old and are no longer pretty?  Will the men in your life treat you differently?

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## jejik

Why do you think that old woman can't be pretty? She may be elegant, well dressed and so on. As I remember English and American history -- the lady must have a lot of  values (and always to be elegant is one of them)/

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## JB

I do think that older women are pretty. But men think differently than I, and if your husband's friends do not think you are pretty, (now or 20 years from now), how does that affect you or your husband?

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## jejik

Ok... some Russian tradition... it is like Indian woman must be plump. 
If my dress is good -- it costs some money, the better the dress- the more money, if I had a good hair style - it costs some money, if I have a good shoes -it cost some money, if I have a lot of jewelry - it costs some money. The better I look - the more money my husband must spend on me, the more money he must earn. Well dressed woman is an index of men success.  
Of course, everything in this explanation exaggerate a lot, but You must understand that  Russians already don't think why their wifes and daughters must be smart. They must be... because all other women are. 
It is not the problem of my own family. I know a lot of girls whose parents look how they dress when they go to parents friends or relatives. All the relatives must think that a family has  prosperity and they know how to bring up thier children.  
And some Russians, who are here, am I right?

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## raskolnik

personal pride in appearance is good, nothing wrong with wanting to leave the house looking respectable. you score kudos with partner and people make positive judgments about you when they look at you.

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## JB

Beyond looking good, my experience with Russian women is that they are usually more educated and smarter than their husbands.  But these women never stand up for themselves when the men treat them like idiots. Of course they complain when we are alone with other women but they never say anything to the men. They also wait on their husbands like a servant. I have one friend who even irons her husband's t-shirts!

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## jejik

::   ::  Almost all Russian women iron their husband T-shirts (And it is a big surprise for me that in other countries men iron them themselves), but all the other is ravings of a madman. I don't know any woman who bahave herself as you say, and I don't know why do you think they are more educated? It is the same as in any other country, my husband is a surgeon and a lot of his friends too, I am a philologist, the godfather of our child is a judge, and the mother -- phytopatholog and so on and so on. Who of us is more educated?

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## JB

My Russian girlfriends are lawyers, university professors, engineers etc.  They are married to truck drivers, auto mechanics and men who have not been to university.   
Don't get mad about the t-shirt ironing.  For American women to be asked to iron a t-shirt would be an insult.  All t-shirts are permanent press and come out of the drier wrinkle free.  Also many men here help with the house work if their wife works outside of the home.

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## jejik

Do you want to say that in the USA lawyers don't marry truck drivers? Then you think more about what your relative will say then we.  Don't forget that people in Russia usually marry when they are about 22-23, when they are students. I get married at 19 and become a mother in 20, and belive itsn't strange at all for Russia. My husband was 24. Most people at this age haven't any profession or education at all ( I mean my age) and believe a lot of women (especially if their grandmothers and grandfathers didn't have University education) will marry a lorry driver if he can earn money, don't drink much and love her.

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## JB

It is true that in America it is not common for a lawyer, doctor, or any highly educated professional to marry someone who is not at their level in society.  America has a strong class system with distinctly different layers. Each class adheres to it's own life style.  You can distinguish someone's class by their taste in music, tv and sports.  It is easy to tell a person's upbringing by such small things as their table manors.

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## Aaa

> It is true that in America it is not common for a lawyer, doctor, or any highly educated professional to marry someone who is not at their level in society.  America has a strong class system with distinctly different layers. Each class adheres to it's own life style.  You can distinguish someone's class by their taste in music, tv and sports.  It is easy to tell a person's upbringing by such small things as their table manors.

 Not common, but definitely not unheard of.  And there's lots of class switching in the U.S.  Plenty of suburban kids who slack off, fail out of college, work at the gas station, and become "white trash".  Plenty of rural or poor kids who have two parents who work as say a plumber (or truck driver), and say a secretary or receptionist, who have a decent combined income, and push their kids to excel in school and go to college.

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## z80

I would have no problem marrying a smarter woman, then she can stay at work, and I will look after kids and house. 
I would love to do that.

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## mike

> It is true that in America it is not common for a lawyer, doctor, or any highly educated professional to marry someone who is not at their level in society.

 Oh, all my dreams of working 6 hours a day with little responsibility are spoiled.   ::

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## JB

The mobility within the class system is pretty much within the middle class.  Lower middle class can become upper middle class with education and an increase in professional status. But don't confuse income or profession with class. A destitute aristocrat will still have the manners and habits of the upper class even when eating at McDonalds, while a person raised in a lower class will easily be recognized by the higher class no matter how much money he has. 
Also a person who marries someone of a lower class may be the subject of ridicule and gossip by his/her own class, as in the marriage of John and Jackie Kennedy. 
Aren't we Americans a snobby bunch!

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## z80

Except with in the top 5% of our socioty, I don't think people care to much who you mary and what socail back ground they come from.

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## Dogboy182

so, if a russian family had only 1 son... would the parents make the son do chores around the house such as cleaning the kitchen, doing the dishes, and doing luandry? or would they chop wood, and cut grass (im just trying to find out how much easyer my life would be if i was russian   ::

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## z80

Your life would probably be harder.

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## Dogboy182

doubt it... do eveything, if my mom would at least do the woman work *i,e dishes washing things, vacuum* i would have a much easyer time when im done slaving in the yard.

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## z80

Dude, get over it. Just think of all the people your age right now that have been kidnaped and are fighting in a war, or the kids that don't have sweet f-all to eat and stuff. 
If you have food, clothes and shealter, your doing alright.

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## Dogboy182

im not alright, where is my russian book huh? wheres my damn grammar mastering kit! i'd much rather be in a war, than stuck sitting here all day. at least in war u get to kill things, and get exercise. and get to shoot guns, alot, right now im just rotting away.

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## z80

You only rot away at your own choice.  
Get out and do somthing then, I don't know what, I just sit on my computer all day, but I like that, so I don't think of it as rotting away.

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## emka71aln

16 and rotting away all summer?  Hmmm.....sounds like it's time for someone to get a job.  You know, it IS possible to work part time and learn Russian all in one summer.

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## z80

how long do your "summer" hollidays go for?

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## Dogboy182

for both of your informations... i have submitted 7 applications and gone to 2 interviews in the past week. and second, theres nothinh wrong with sitting infront of the computer, but its starting to be nicer outside, and i want to go outside but none of my computer geek friends do, so i just waste the days.

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## z80

See thats what windows are for.  
You can open them, and then like, air and stuff out side, comes inside. 
Windows, a practical alternitive to going out side !

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## Dogboy182

Посмотри в окно 
ну и что.

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## z80

I painted my windows black so that the sun wouldn't come in. 
I hate the sun.

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## Dogboy182

ненавидишь солнце? 
ты покупаешь краски в магазине покупаешь щетки краски ты хочешь красить твою квартиру черную.

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## JB

Well Dogboy,  if you lived in Russia you probably wouldn't have to do "women's work" but you had better start saving your money to support the wife and kids you'll have when you turn 20.

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## z80

Rasing kids and stuff when your only 23 would be bloody hard.

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## Dogboy182

yea, kids ... great, but a wife, who can argue with that? кто будет спорить с презервативом?

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## russkayalove

> you had better start saving your money to support the wife and kids you'll have when you turn 20.

 Wife and kids at twenty, wow! I know a few (very few), but I could'nt imagine having a husband and kids right now. Where did this comment come from? I can't read Russian yet... so yea. How could you manage to really do anything with your life if you had kids at 20, like go to school and work. It would be very hard.

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## z80

Why do people think that once you have kids your life is over. I guess I'm a few years above 20 now, and I have been looking after a friends daughter after she had an illness, and it's great. I love it. 
Once she goes back with her mother then I'll probably adopt or somthing.

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## JB

russkayalove, I got this from page 4, see jejik's last post. 
z80, kids ARE great! I have always worked with kids and love it.  I also have my own who are my best friends.  ::

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## In Love With Russia

That reminds me of something that happened.  A friend of mine went to New Zealand, and he wasn't trusted by the people.  Later they found out that he was Canadian and not American like they thought.  Afterwards, it was all smiles and laughs.  I don't know why this happened, but it did.

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## z80

Thats common in this part of the world too.  
I think it's got  to do with the American sailors, and when ever theres an American ship docked in a port, the city nearest that port has lots of rapes and assults.  
Unfortunatly, this sort of puts the rest of the Americans in a bad light as well. 
From an NZ perspective, America is not trusted, and is seen as a very corupt country.

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## TheMoonMonst3r

> Originally Posted by TaintedDoughnuts  *sighs at dogboy*  i knew i should have put a disclaimer at the bottom not to include negative stereotypes, but i had hoped people werent so narrow minded on this forum.  you're sterotyping millions of people from a few idiots who only care about themselves.  lets try this again.  excluding tourists, and only concentrating on americans who travel to russia for other reasons such as education, business, family, etc., what do americans do differently in their dress and the way they look/carry themselves?
> P.S. thanks for the reply ekalin : ) thats the kind of things i was wondering about, although not the only thing   
>  wow lets just ignore everything negative in the world, lets just put everything bad out of site and just push it away. even if your friend looks dumb just lie! tell them they look good. i'm so tired of daisy growers sugar coating everything, and not looking at the whole picture. it's the same soccer moms that love to ban video games that are so bad because it's wrong to steal cars or say "butt" in a video game. well, i say america is retarted, im tired of retarted americans, and i wish my own country wasn't so retarted.  it's freakin embarassing.

 How many soccer moms do you know that banned a video game with the word "butt" in it? 
I live in this damn country, and I don't know of ANY video games being banned. 
By the way, what's up with you and soccer moms?  Is your mom a soccer mom?  How many soccer moms do you know?

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## Dogboy182

i was using that as an example. if could comprehend things with the slightest bit of sarcasm, i was meaning they ban things for the stupidest reasons. like, i hate how. whever some kid cuts off his finger, or throws boiling water on his friend. they say he "was immatating a stunt he saw on jackass" ok i have seen every episode of jackass, and seen the movie also. no where in there did anyone throw bioling water on anybody. (i saw this on the news last night) it just надоело me so much !!

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## mike

> i was using that as an example. if could comprehend things with the slightest bit of sarcasm, i was meaning they ban things for the stupidest reasons. like, i hate how. whever some kid cuts off his finger, or throws boiling water on his friend. they say he "was immatating a stunt he saw on jackass" ok i have seen every episode of jackass, and seen the movie also. no where in there did anyone throw bioling water on anybody. (i saw this on the news last night) it just надоело me so much !!

 Actually, kids _do_ imitate what they see on television.  There are hundreds of moronic teenagers running around with camcorders making their own spinoffs of Jackass and imitating pro wrestlers and anyone else.  Do you remember a few years back when those two kids put a frog in a blender and burned down their house or something after watching it on Beavis and Butthead, and afterwards the show had to put that disclaimer up?  These shows aren't getting banned because frantic housewives are overreacting, it's because our teenagers and children are idiots.  Is Grand Theft Auto going to encourage kids to be violent?  No, probably not.  I happen to like the GTA games and I think all those annoying religious groups like the PMRC and annoying religious individuals like Joe Lieberman who happen to be Southern Baptists or Orthodox Jews and therefore know what's best for an entire country should go jump off a cliff.  But once you break down the barriers of censorship then the market becomes a free-for-all sensationalism contest rather than a competition for quality (ever wonder why there's no literary classics these days, and the bestsellers are pieces of fictional polemic swill like Slander and Stupid White Men).  And who ever heard of an entertainment conglomerate showing individual social responsibility when it's more profitable to include as much profanity, sex, and violence as possible?  One need only compare the films of yesterday to the Vin Diesel-esque gorillas that are paid exorbitant amounts to poorly imitate two-dimensional characters on the screen today.  No talent?  Throw in some explosions.  Weak story?  Spray one of the bustier female extras with a hose. 
By the way, stereotyping is funny.  As long as you don't actually believe one race or religion or national identity is inferior to another then who cares what jokes you make about the other?

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## Vijak

There are many Russians in Berlin... eastern half of the city belongs to 
them. You can allways recognize the Russian players they dress allways
completely black.

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## JB

Hollywood is also very Russian.  When we go to Russian parties or events black is always the majority of outfits. Especially black leather jackets for both men and women.

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## z80

Party at z80's house.

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