# Forum About Russia Society  Are Russians too conservative?

## starrysky

Well, starting a thread is the last thing I feel like doing now, since I don't have that much time but I've read a comment about Russians today on another forum that said:   

> ...no amount of oil and gas can fix Russia's problems. The oligarchy will become richer, not the people en masse... the nation is at large racist, anti-gay, and anti what not. For the most part it is an ignorant, superstitious, ultra-conservative nation.

 It got me thinking, esp. in light of the thread on homosexuals... Do you think it's true? Do we need to change and become more progressive as a society? Is the Western model, say, of family life necessarily the best one? I disagree with the "ignorant" part and I don't think the majority of Russians are racist. I have met individuals who are. I was once dating a guy who saw fit to ask me on the third date about whether I could marry a "coloured" ("цветной") man. I was really shocked at this. Digging deeper I learned that he didn't have a very high opinion about people with darker skin. I was young, green, and naive and didn't know that racism still existed. I'd just read "To Kill a Mocking Bird" by Harper Lee so the mere fact that anyone should have such ideas was very strange -- like, what age are you living in, man? He wasn't exactly Russian by descent, as a matter of fact, but there are enough Russian jerks as well, so... 
I do think that such individuals are rare, though. I was reading comments on the film "Slumdog Millionaire" a few days ago and the majority were very favourable except for one who said something along the lines "не хочу смотреть кино про чурок" -- what a disgusting word, that.     
I have now become quite an Indophile (yes, yes, I know, у кого, что болит...) and the thing that strikes me is that they seem to have very conservative views in marriage, for example. But to me, it's a good thing -- marriage and family are considered a sacred thing there and people aren't in a hurry to get a divorce every time a little disagreement comes up. So in this respect, I think India shouldn't lose its traditions and identity. The castes, on the other hand, are def. a thing to be shed... Well, what about Russia?

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## Crocodile

> But to me, it's a good thing -- marriage and family are considered a sacred thing [...]

 The biggest problem is that there's no objective measure. I mean, the only objective (biological) measure is reproductivity, but based on that there should be no divorces, only the fittest should reproduce, etc. There would be no place for love (and desire). I personally perceive that as an inhumane society. Why? Because I've been raised in Russian culture where love is important. In the caste system, love can or cannot be important based on the other more sacred factors. I recently spoke with an Indian colleague and he said that presently in India you can as a couple ignore the caste system if you love each other, but you would have to leave your parents (for whom the caste is more important than love) and move to another place where nobody knows you.    

> Do we need to change and become more progressive as a society?

 What is a progressive society? People en mass rarely reflect on what they are doing, let alone on what type of society they are. They form their opinions based on very arbitrary factors, such as who can say things cooler, stricter, funnier and louder. Other things are just the society customs. For example: inmates in Russian jails despise "roosters", but almost anyone can become a "rooster" after being "put down". And those very same "roosters" are "being used" by those very same inmates! How's that working with the logic? No logic. The society custom.

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## Vincent Tailors

> Do we need to change and become more progressive as a society?

 Of course not. What a dumb question.

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## Medved

> Are Russians too conservative?

 *Yes* 
The DOT.

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## Оля

I think the main questions here are - What is "conservative" and what is "progressive"?

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## Crocodile

> The DOT.

 => Period. (I think)

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## Medved

A little explanation of what Russians hate (at least me): 
1. A man should f..k a woman and there are no other combinations. Never.
2. Yes, I am a rasist a bit. I strongly HATE some folks.
3. If a woman would paid for me in a restaurant or something, she would insult me very hard. I say it.
4. The marriage has 2 sides: the public one and the private one. I would be very glad if one takes part in th public one, but, ....you know what.... 
Okay, that's enough.

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## Crocodile

> Okay, that's enough.

 Would you care to justify your point of view? I mean, what you just mentioned is not even conservative.   ::

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## mishau_

Conservative, but not tto much. The society is splitted into two implacable camps: commy and pro-Western people. The pro-Western people copy blindly everything from the West, while the commy part denies everything that does'n smell with naphthalene.  And there are a lot of people in between. Regardless political view, most Russians consider things to be better quality if those things were made in Germany, France, America, Japan and other countries.

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## Оля

> The society is splitted into two implacable camps: commy and pro-Western people.

 Ha ha ha ha ha   ::

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## SAn

> ...no amount of oil and gas can fix Russia's problems. The oligarchy will become richer, not the people en masse... the nation is at large racist, anti-gay, and anti what not. For the most part it is an ignorant, superstitious, ultra-conservative nation.

 Why we need to love gays and negroes to live better? 
I first seen a negro when I was a child (approximately 7-8 years old). I was shocked, cried, and ran to my mother. She explained me that far away are living black-skinned people (called negroes), and sometimes they are going to Russia, even into our small town Taganrog. 
So, if they are so good, why they are scaring small children? 
Concerning the gays... Imagine old Soviet film. A young girl crying to a soldier going to a war: «I love you! I will wait you forever!» The soldier answering: «I want to say you something important! I am a gay...» and doing deep kiss to another soldier. Cannot imagine? Me too. 
P.S. What is «anti-what-not»?

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## starrysky

Thanks for replies, everyone.   

> The biggest problem is that there's no objective measure. I mean, the only objective (biological) measure is reproductivity, but based on that there should be no divorces, only the fittest should reproduce, etc. There would be no place for love (and desire). I personally perceive that as an inhumane society. Why? Because I've been raised in Russian culture where love is important. In the caste system, love can or cannot be important based on the other more sacred factors. I recently spoke with an Indian colleague and he said that presently in India you can as a couple ignore the caste system if you love each other, but you would have to leave your parents (for whom the caste is more important than love) and move to another place where nobody knows you.

 Thanks for the insight, Croc. The reason I mentioned India is because I was quite struck with the respect they seem to have for marriage, just to compare Bollywood couples who seem to be pretty constant and the Hollywood ones who are splitting right, left and centre... I do think that respect for family and marriage are things that should be upheld... supported and promoted. I grew up seeing and hearing so much about divorce, and seeing beautiful and seemingly reasonable couples breaking up, I was quite convinced I should never marry at all -- what for, if you're gonna split up anyway.     

> What is a progressive society? People en mass rarely reflect on what they are doing, let alone on what type of society they are. They form their opinions based on very arbitrary factors, such as who can say things cooler, stricter, funnier and louder. Other things are just the society customs. For example: inmates in Russian jails despise "roosters", but almost anyone can become a "rooster" after being "put down". And those very same "roosters" are "being used" by those very same inmates! How's that working with the logic? No logic. The society custom.

 These things are sort of biological -- you can see them in hens, for example: hierarchy, pecking order, Alpha and Omega hens, who can peck whom, etc. It's supposed to reduce aggression -- when everyone knows their place in the scale of things (at least, that's what we were told in ecology lessons). But human beings can build a better society.   

> Of course not. What a dumb question.

 I'm not sure I know what you mean... Do you mean that Russians are anti-gay and racist and so on but there's no need to change it or that we are nothing of the sort? If the latter, I wish _I_ could be as confident as you and refute such accusaions with a simple "stuff and nonsense."   ::  This opinion about Russians as racists seems to be rather spread. At least I'm a bit tired of reading such things. It's not as though there are no skinheads in GB, for instance.    
Threads on Russian are habitually closed at the message board I took that quote from because they frequently degenerate into dubbing Russians "racist" and so on. Like this one.   

> Period. (I think)

 Uh-huh. Or "full stop" in British English.   

> So, if they are so good, why they are scaring small children?

 *amused*Have you seen no black people in pictures or cartoons, like "Каникулы Бонифация"? I was at a practice in school a few years ago and they had a black girl staying. She was SO popular, kids were fighting amongst themselves to be her friend, to sit with her, to walk round the school with her and so on.     

> P.S. What is «anti-what-not»?

 whatnot = и т.п.

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## gRomoZeka

> I first seen a negro when I was a child (approximately 7-8 years old). I was shocked, cried, and ran to my mother.

 What???? Why?  ::  
И разве негры виноваты в твоей тонкой душевной организации?   ::    

> Concerning the gays... Imagine old Soviet film. A young girl crying to a soldier going to a war: «I love you! I will wait you forever!» The soldier answering: «I want to say you something important! I am a gay...» and doing deep kiss to another soldier. Cannot imagine? Me too.

 You mean like this?  ::

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## Ленивец

The American Conservatism consists of these basic values: 
1. Religion. This is not that popular in Russia.
2. Traditional family, sexual life values. Ok, here we're similar.
3. Personal freedom fondness, it, among everything, implies conservative attitude to a government role in a society - the smaller it is the better. It's completely different from the mainstream Russian point of view.
4. Financial self-responsibility. This is not what most Russians see as a value. "Putin must divide the oil and gas revenues equally among all the citizens"
5. Nationalism. The American nationalism has much in common with the Russian one (not ethnically oriented), and, at the same time, much different, since the Russian's directed towards the state: 'I'm a soldier of a victorious empire, ave, Caesar!'

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## Crocodile

I think of myself as a rather conservative person. (I mean I'd be only sightseeing in Amsterdam.) So, being absolutely straight, I don't understand at all what those gay guys find in each other. However, if _I_ don't understand, it doesn't necessarily mean _they_ are wrong, so my conservatism dictates: if in doubt, don't do anything (hostile or otherwise) towards them with respect to that matter.  
As for the black guys living in Russia... well, people migrate from place to place. It's a fact. And if someone doesn't happen to acknowledge that simple fact, I'd suggest that racist person *go back to his Africa*! (Since that's where the parents of all the presently living humans have come from [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve ]).

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## SAn

> You mean like this?

 Yes, I mean... Oh no!   ::

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## Basil77

My answer on the question of the topic: yes, we are conservative indeed, speaking about myself at least, cause when I'll see such news event happening in Russia I guess it willl be the Apocalypse eve  ::  :  Drunk female bishop caught driving during the lent

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## SAn

Russians are free in comparison with Americans: We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to rasism.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]We can slap the bottom of nice girl-colleague and she will smile to us. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to sexual harassment.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]We can download and watch any pirated movie from the Internet (I even have a small computer permanently connected to a flat-panel TV, so I just need to type movie title and wait 15 minutes until it is downloaded). Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to computer piracy.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]In every student dormitory we have local computrer network with all learning materials, scanned textbooks etc. I have read terrible stories about american students paying huge fines for that due to copyright infringement.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]I don't know how in Moscow, but in Taganrog most of satellite receivers are sold with hacked firmware, so they automatically download channel keys from the Internet. Sellers do it because they know that no sane person will buy satellite receiver if he will need to pay separately for the channels. It is as stupid as paying for the air you breath. So we are free to watch any satellite channel for free.[/*:m:1kfpxk9a]
Americans live in a fear of law. And they are trying to make the whole world live like that. Life got worse!

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## Basil77

SAn, sorry but you are a sick bastard. Please, keep that idiotic "jokes" of yours for yourself. Stop terrorizing people with your stupid "humor"!  ::

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## SAn

Ok, I have removed it. Sorry if hurted your feelings. 
Instead a have added interesting fact about hacked satellite receivers.

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## Оля

> We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes.

 Idiots are free to do anything in any place. 
I wonder who are those "we" though. Are you many? Or is it only your family?

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## Hanna

*Well you should judge YOUR country by YOUR standards, right?* 
If Russians begin to have a problem with any of this, then it's a problem; if not - whoever made that comment should mind his/her own business! Personally I have not noticed that Russians are particularly conservative or intolerant. 
All those things that are referred to as lacking in Russia are part of the concept known as "political correctness" (PC) in English. That refers to having a set of values that are socially acceptable.... People who don't conform to these opinions are generally hung out in media, or considered strange by others. I do not agree with some of this, but I generally keep that to myself.   *Example of political correct values right now:* *Homosexuality is just the same* as heterosexuality, homosexuals should have all the same rights and be able to be open about their relationships. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]*Men and women are the same* in every way and traditional gender roles are wrong..[/*:m:8mev4g1k]*Skin colour* is irrelevant. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]*Democracy* (per Western definition) is the only acceptable form of government.. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]*All religions are ok*, apart from strict Islam or fundamentalist Christianity.  [/*:m:8mev4g1k]Capitalism is right, but there should be some protection for the people who are not able to cope in a capitalist society, i.e. people who cannot find a  job, or people who are victims of unfortunate circumstances. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]Be paranoid about islamist terrorists! They hate us and want to kill us! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]Be paranoid about peadophiles... They might snatch your child! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]Be paranoid about Iran, North Korea... (axis of evil) might nuke us! [/*:m:8mev4g1k]Because of the above *objects of paranoia* and to protect people from them... it should be allowed to spy on people who are potential terrorists and detain them without trial... Also because of this, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are acceptable. [/*:m:8mev4g1k]Be mildly concerned about *human rights* and lack of democracy in Russia, China etc... +be a little bit concerned about anything that the Russian army does...[/*:m:8mev4g1k] 
+some more.  *So Russia falls a bit short on a few of these..*  (meaning that it does not live up to some of these ideals)  But Russia has a different perspective, and different experiences!  Why would / should you have the same view on things as someone from Holland or Canada etc?  And what right has anyone to critisise your viewpoint?  You are not forcing it on anyone else, and those who don't enjoy living in Russia can leave and live somewhere else... So what's this persons problem?

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## SAn

> Idiots are free to do anything in any place. 
> I wonder who are those "we" though. Are you many? Or is it only your family?

 И чего же вы всё серьёзно так воспринимаете...
Заметьте, кстати, что я никого не назвал «sick bastard» или «idiot», к примеру. 
Я получаю удовольствие, вызывая у людей эмоции (положительные или отрицательные — не важно). Поэтому рождаются сообщения наподобие того, что я написал выше. Вам придётся к этому привыкнуть.

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## Basil77

> И чего же вы всё серьёзно так воспринимаете...
> Заметьте, кстати, что я никого не назвал «sick bastard» или «idiot», к примеру.

 Лучше бы уж назвал. Знаешь, во всяком общении, включая и общение на форуме, существуют определённые рамки, или это уже не общение, а базар. Я считаю, что каждый имеет право на свои собственные представления о том, что смешно, а что нет, поэтому не комментировал твои предыдущие посты, хотя чувство юмора у тебя, ИМХО, очень
своеобразное. Но твоя последняя "острота", это уже не просто моветон, а вообще полный финиш - дальше уже ехать некуда, что называется. Так что извини, если я тебя оскорбил, но я остаюсь при своём мнении и своих слов назад не возьму.

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## Ramil

> Я получаю удовольствие, вызывая у людей эмоции (положительные или отрицательные — не важно). Поэтому рождаются сообщения наподобие того, что я написал выше. Вам придётся к этому привыкнуть.

 Ну... раз так, тогда вот:   
 :"":  :"":  :"":

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## Lampada

Кончайте базар! Всем дружить!  ::

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## it-ogo

> Кончайте базар! Всем дружить!

 ... в тряпочку! 
(Типа еще один юморист...)

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## mishau_

Самые консервативные в современной Руси - это ряженые нагаечники. У них даже телесные наказания есть.
(только вы меня не выдавайте, а то поймают и высекут  ::  )

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## Crocodile

> Thanks for the insight, Croc.

 You're most welcome, Ma-starrysky.   ::

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## Throbert McGee

> Russians are free in comparison with Americans: We are free to go to the center of city and cry than we hate negroes. Americans can't do it. They will go to a prison due to rasism.[/*:m:2r0ur5hw]

 Go to prison? Don't be f***ing ridiculous, dude.  
The Negroes would strip the meat from your bones with their razor-sharp teeth (after first paralyzing you with the fast-acting neurotoxins in their poison glands) before the police could even *think* about arresting you.

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## starrysky

> Why we need to love gays and negroes to live better?

 Are you serious or joking here, SAn? 'Cause it's a strange question. Would answers like, "because we are all human beings, all in one boat, so treat others as you would like to be treated", ring a bell with you?     

> *Well you should judge YOUR country by YOUR standards, right?* 
> If Russians begin to have a problem with any of this, then it's a problem; if not - whoever made that comment should mind his/her own business! Personally I have not noticed that Russians are particularly conservative or intolerant.
> ...
> All those things that are referred to as lacking in Russia are part of the concept known as "political correctness" (PC) in English.
> ...
> Why would / should you have the same view on things as someone from Holland or Canada etc?  And what right has anyone to critisise your viewpoint?  You are not forcing it on anyone else, and those who don't enjoy living in Russia can leave and live somewhere else... So what's this persons problem?

 Rrrright. I just realized this thread pretty much reiterates Croc's "Политкорректность или политкорявость"... Sorry, Crocodile-ji.   ::   ::   
Regarding the right to criticize... or absence thereof... It's a valid point but the attitude "моя хата с краю, ничего не знаю" is never going to work now. The international community, the EU officials/observers are always worried now about what's going on in all parts of the world, be it the arrest of generals in Turkey or military coup in some African country; and anxious to promote democracy, impose Western values, equal rights for men and women and so on.  
As I said, I wouldn't worry if it wasn't just one person voicing this opinion about Russia but it seems to come up quite often so that's why I got curious if it has any foundation. 
All right, when in doubt, go to Wikipedia (yes, yes, I know it's notoriously unreliable):  Racism Racism in Russia Racism in Europe   

> In May 2006, Amnesty International reported that racially motivated killings in Russia were "out of control" and that at least 28 people were killed in 2005.[1]In 2006, Amnesty International registered 252 victims of racist crimes, of which 21 died. In February 2007, President Vladimir Putin asked the Federal Security Service to combat racism,[2] but hate crimes still increased. From January 1 to July 31, 2007, Amnesty International registered 310 victims of neo-Nazi and racist crimes in Russia; 37 of those victims died as a result of attacks. Amnesty International criticize Russian police for not doing enough to combat racist crimes, and for often ignoring reports from civilians about threats and crimes.[3] According to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, from January to March, 2008, 49 people were killed in assaults by radical nationalists, 28 of them in the greater Moscow area, and an estimated 118 people in total were killed in the whole of 2008. However, it is worth noting that the Moscow Human Rights Bureau focuses almost exclusively on victims of ethnic minority backgrounds, therefore a number of racist attacks on ethnic Russians may go unreported. 
> The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, "half of the world's total", according to western news agencies.[4][5]. The director of the Human Rights Bureau, Alexander Brod, stated that surveys show xenophobia and other racist expressions are prevalent in 50 percent of Russians.[6]

 Bleak outlook, ain't it?

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## gRomoZeka

> The number of Russian neo-Nazis is estimated at around 85,000, "half of the world's total", according to western news agencies.[4][5].

 Bleh.. I checked the sources 4 and 5.  *#4* says "_According to Semyon Charny_ of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, there are an estimated 70,000 skinheads in Russia".  *#5* states that "there are now an estimated 50,000 to 70,000 neo-Nazis, half of the world's total".
Wikipedia decided to add 15 thousands more just to be on the safe side. Well done.   ::   
So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total"). No sources of this information are given, and how mister Charny got this number is a mystery. He could say 200 thousands for all I know.  The others seem to choose a number to their liking betwen 50,000 and 100,000. 
I wonder how many Nazis/skinheads in Russia for real. I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life, while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them. Are there any reliable sources?

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## Basil77

> ..I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life..

 So am I. I saw them only on TV.

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## mishau_

> while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them.

 No you do not remember correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you.  ::   
Though I was called once to witness in a skinhead case.

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## gRomoZeka

> No you do not remeber correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you.

 Ha-ha, sorry. It was an educated guess.   ::  
Well, let's say that there was someone who had an opposing point of view. )

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## Throbert McGee

> So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total").

 "There are lies, there are _damned_ lies, and there are statistics." 
(Or, "in the original Klingon"  ::  :  Ложь, проклятая ложь, и статистика.) 
Often attributed to Mark Twain, but although Twain loved the quote and helped popularize it, he himself gave credit to Disraeli. But the witticism can't be found in any of Disraeli's published writings, and the real author is probably the celebrated Mr. A. Nonymous. 
Anyway, "half of the world's neo-Nazis are in Russia" reminds me of "50% of American students can't find the U.S. on a world map" -- it's a pseudo-statistic based on [s:vm9v5vqm]sloppy[/s:vm9v5vqm] "creative" methodology, and therefore a type of lie -- but arguably a "noble lie", since the purpose is *to shame one's countrymen into self-improvement*. In other words, it's a form of national self-criticism, which is why statistics of this type are widely repeated without skepticism-- people understand them to be a moral challenge, and not an attack. 
P.S. Some skeptics have pointed out that the widespread popularity of "50% of American students can't find the U.S. on a world map" in TV news reports and newspaper editorials probably tells us nothing useful about the actual state of geographic education in the U.S., but *does* prove beyond the smallest doubt that most American journalists flunked "Statistical Analysis 101"!   ::

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## Crocodile

> I just realized this thread pretty much reiterates Croc's "Политкорректность или политкорявость"... Sorry, Crocodile-ji.

 (Removed my shoes first.) Namaste, Ma-starrysky.  (And gave a gift with my two hands to the eldest woman of your house.) I would hope we'd be moving somewhere in either of the threads. And yours is in English, so don't worry - by no means you steal my thunder. (And even if you do, I care for it as much as Ramil  .   ::  )

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## mishau_

> Originally Posted by mishau_  No you do not remeber correctly, perhaps you memory plays some tricks on you.    It was an educated guess.

 Yes, it was an anecdotal case.  ::

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## starrysky

> So it seems that the number of neo-Nazis is uncertain (but regardless of what it is it's always "half of the world's total"). No sources of this information are given, and how mister Charny got this number is a mystery. He could say 200 thousands for all I know.  The others seem to choose a number to their liking betwen 50,000 and 100,000.

 OK, I know I'm a real "тормоз" in replying to this   ::   but I hear there's an upsurge of hate crimes in connection with the recent bombings. Not just towards Muslims but just people with swarthy skin. I don't care how many skinheads there are _exactly_, it seems that the rate of crimes is high enough. It irritates the heck out of me that such "уроды" even exist. Why don't you all guys care? Just because it doesn't touch you personally? I remember gRomoZeka getting all riled up about cameras in supermarkets and the whole paranoia stuff. Well, here we have people dying and being beaten on a regular basis and no one seems to care. This problem doesn't touch me  personally either (as long as I don't marry an Asian-looking guy, for example). But the mere fact that such things happen!

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## Crocodile

> Why don't you all guys care? Just because it doesn't touch you personally?

 I agree with you, but it's a rhetoric question, isn't it?

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## Pretty Butterfly

Other countries have problems with racist groups, but stories like this suggest Russia has a bigger problem than most. 
And for those who don't think this is a problem, well, when you treat other people as less than human you dehumanise yourself. Killing someone because you don't like the colour of their skin is not acceptable wherever you happen to be.

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## gRomoZeka

> Why don't you all guys care?

 M-m, who are you talking to? Or was it a rhetorical question?

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## Seraph

> "...What is a progressive society? People en mass rarely reflect on what they are doing, let alone on what type of society they are. They form their opinions based on very arbitrary factors,...."

 Which raises a question for me, what is confirmation bias  in Russian?  Can't find it in Ru wikipedia.  If people examined their confirmation biases more, there would be less trouble.  Maybe.

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## starrysky

> M-m, who are you talking to? Or was it a rhetorical question?

 No, it's not exactly rhetorical... I put this question for everyone who posts/-ed in this thread. Do you care or do you not? And if not, why? *oh god, I feel I'm gonna get on my soapbox* 
It seems to me that people are really lukewarm about this sort of thing while there is reason to be worried.   ::  Don't remember if I mentioned this before but I once heard a story about how a father and his little daughter were attacked by a gang of skinheads. They beat the man to death right before his daughter's eyes. I remember I was horrified when I read this. I just imagined how I'd feel if it was my dad and I. I suppose it doesn't touch you deeply when you just hear such stuff in the news but at least there are books and films, like "To Kill A Mockingbird" by Harper Lee (excellent  screen adaptation, btw), which really help to put yourself in the shoes of a person who faces racism/prejudice. Racism and prejudice are very hard to get rid of and I suppose they will always exist but I still think we are a sort of backward country when it comes such things and would do better to take notice and try to improve as a society. 
Or take the thread on women in politics. It seems there were just a couple of people "for" women in politics, while others said "politics is dirty and women shouldn't participate." Maybe I don't remember correctly, there was no poll. But that was the impression I got. That's just so old-fashioned. So men get to decide about how women's everyday life is affected, huh? How is that fair?   ::   And women themselves don't think they can/should step up and do something. Just like slaves were so used to being slaves, they couldn't imagine any other life.   

> Which raises a question for me, what is confirmation bias  in Russian?

 What is confirmation bias?   ::   
Yes, Crocodile is right -- people en mass are fairly... eh... amoebic in any country. An ordinary person can't do all that much. We all have too many personal problems and work to care about any other stuff. Like, no one takes the drug-addiction or alcoholism problem seriously until someone from their close circle becomes a drug addict or an alcoholic. Alcoholism is mostly joked about and nearly everyone drinks anyway. I used to have a close relative who was a drug addict and sometimes was wondering (bitterly) why the society at large seems so indifferent. It's like you're completely on your own with this and no one cares. Now I no longer live with this, I also don't care that much. No, I sympathise with people who are going through it but what can I do? Participate in a peaceful demonstartion at most.

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## Crocodile

> It seems to me that people are really lukewarm about this sort of thing while there is reason to be worried.

 What can I say... Women are better than men in this regard.   ::     

> No, I sympathise with people who are going through it but what can I do? Participate in a peaceful demonstartion at most.

 There is a one huge problem with politics - it's so much up to the interpretation that no statistical lie could ever match that. Say, you participate in a peaceful demonstration and hold out the sign that reads: "Say NO to drugs!" What's going to happen? At the best, the politicians would just ride that wave. The left-wing politicians would blame the right-wing for the negligence of the issue and the other way around. That would do nothing to the very aggressive pyramid-style distribution chain of the drugs. At the best, the police would run a show unveiling another insignificant portion of the chain. So, the drugs would cost a little more to the drug users (because of the shortage) and the profit margin for the rest of the pyramid would raise. Some of the drug users would run out of money, so they would turn to the cheaper (and even more health-damaging) alternatives to the drugs. Or become criminals to get the money they need so desperately.  
The solution to the drug problem is well-known. The one that destroys the drug distribution pyramid. But no government would currently have the guts to implement it.   ::   
I personally stopped participating in demonstrations long time ago.   ::

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## Seraph

> Which raises a question for me, what is confirmation bias  in Russian?
> 			
> 		  What is confirmation bias?

 confirmation bias :"is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true"  from wikipedia. 
I should mention that not all confirmation biases are bad.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias article is available in  
    * Deutsch
    * Español
    * Français
    * 한국어
    * Íslenska
    * עברית
    * 日本語
    * Polski
    * Svenska 
not Russian.

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## starrysky

> There is a one huge problem with politics - it's so much up to the interpretation that no statistical lie could ever match that. Say, you participate in a peaceful demonstration and hold out the sign that reads: "Say NO to drugs!" What's going to happen? At the best, the politicians would just ride that wave. The left-wing politicians would blame the right-wing for the negligence of the issue and the other way around. That would do nothing to the very aggressive pyramid-style distribution chain of the drugs. At the best, the police would run a show unveiling another insignificant portion of the chain. So, the drugs would cost a little more to the drug users (because of the shortage) and the profit margin for the rest of the pyramid would raise. Some of the drug users would run out of money, so they would turn to the cheaper (and even more health-damaging) alternatives to the drugs. Or become criminals to get the money they need so desperately.

 Well, I guess drugs are like alcohol -- they'll never go away. So all the crimes connected with them will continue, and if you're unlucky enough to come in any kind of connection, well, that's just your luck.  
But on other social issues -- I do sort of believe in the power of people. Like, I've recently watched this Hindi film (oh boy, I've a way of dragging my interests into any discussion  :: ) -- "Rang De Basanti", which is about a group of young people who are really disillusioned about the state of things in their country. (Seems India is just as corrupt as Russia). So, at first they don't think they can do anything but then tragedy strikes, which prompts them to take action. The point is -- that movie (a mere movie!)seemingly made an impact on Indian people, awakening their political consciousness and what-not.   

> Rang De Basanti had a noticeable impact on Indian society. A study of bloggers behavioral patterns during the first month of the film's release revealed a significant increase in public ire towards government and politicians for constantly being mired in corruption and bureaucracy and their inefficiency in providing basic amenities. Intense political discussions spurred on by the film's influence were observed in these patterns.[63] While commenting on this, writer D'Silva said that the film "has struck a chord somewhere".[92] Besides instigating political thought and discussions, it evoked social awakening for many. Some discussions rallied on how citizens should support and contribute to non-governmental organizations and exercising simple citizen duties of paying taxes and voting, while the others contemplated on how to become more responsible towards the country.[63] Unlike other Indian films with jingoistic overtones, several young Indians could relate well to the characters of this film.[93] 
> While such reactions were observed on the Internet, youth activism took to streets to protest on public interest issues. *A direct impact was on the 1999 Jessica Lall Murder Case, one of the high-profile murder cases in India. A month after the film's release, a court acquitted the main accused because of inefficient prosecution and hostile witnesses.[94] This sparked intense civil protests and media campaigns that sought his re-arrest. Taking cue from the scene in which the protagonists hold a silent, candlelight vigil at New Delhi's India Gate, one such group of demonstrators carried out a similar rally to voice their protest.[95]* Shortly thereafter, a survey was conducted to assess reasons for the sudden upsurge in people's social involvements. Eighteen percent of the respondents felt that movies like Rang De Basanti were the main reason behind it.[96] Another such massive youth activism was seen in the Priyadarshini Mattoo rape and murder case where similar rallies were organized in India, United States and around the world.[97][98] Following the release of the film, another social outcry was against the introduction of reservations for socially backward classes in educational institutions.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rang_De_Basanti 
I think it's pretty impressive... Especially, the protestants managing to overturn a court's decision and making the muderer son of a high-ranking official go to jail. Somehow I can't imagine such a thing happening in Russia. Though we _are_ supposedly a more progressive society.    

> confirmation bias :"is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true" from wikipedia.

 Aaah,  thanks for the clarification, Seraph.

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## WhiteRook

> Go to prison? Don't be f***ing ridiculous, dude.  
> The Negroes would strip the meat from your bones with their razor-sharp teeth (after first paralyzing you with the fast-acting neurotoxins in their poison glands) before the police could even *think* about arresting you.

 All true. I've seen movies about that. Blade and Blade II.

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## Hanna

> [I remember Olya saying that she's never seen a skinhead in her life, while mishau_ (if I remember correctly) was sure that Russia is swarming with them. Are there any reliable sources?

 She lives in the biggest city on the European continent and she has never seen a skinhead?!! That's very strange. 
But I think it was more common in the late eighties and nineties than it is now. 
They are not dangerous if you are 'white'. Largely it's just confused teenagers.  It's a shame though, and one has to wonder how much of that ideology stays with them after they stop outwardly being a skinhead. It's considered a working class thing in most countries I think. 
Apparently there are plenty of skins both in Russia and the US. At least that's what I've read in the papers. In the Northern part of Europe there are plenty of them too -- just kids who don't like immigrants/refugees and have nothing better to do... 
They get into fights with gangs of immigrant kids who are just as stupid as they are. They drink a lot too.... There are some examples of skins who are criminal but usually they are not. 
Even Britain has some skins and largely they are just confused idiots.  
Some skins attacked me late at night at a train station when I was about 17 or so. It was scary but nothing happened in the end, they backed off and left. I am certainly white enough but they wanted money and accused me of being an anarchist. 
If you don't know what they look like, you can easily recognise them from the jacket and the haircut.  
Are you sure you don't have those in Moscow?

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## Wowik

> Are you sure you don't have those in Moscow?

 Таких?   ::

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## Basil77

Или таких (перепостил отсюда):

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## Lampada

Вот вам вроде бы традиционно наряжённая невеста:  _...Церковное венчание предполагает и соблюдение ряда правил относительно платья невесты. Венчальный наряд не должен быть ярким, тёмным и красным. Лучше выбрать платье светлых пастельных тонов, желательно, белого. Спина, плечи и руки до локтей должны быть закрыты. ... _   ::

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## it-ogo

> *Спина, плечи и руки до локтей должны быть закрыты.* ...  [/i]

 Ага! Пупок, значит, таки можно наружу выставлять.

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## Hanna

::  OMG that bride has her suspenders and string knickers showing! Nothing wrong with such underwear in in themselves.....  but showing it IN CHURCH, at one's wedding??? Very tacky in my opinion! 
She ought to have had her marriage outside... on the beach or something.  
I doubt she is religious at all, or she'd realise that that is a disrespectful way to dress in church.

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## mishau_

Not religious, at least superstitious pagans at cinical atheists.

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## Crocodile

> I doubt she is religious at all, or she'd realise that that is a disrespectful way to dress in church.

 Well, the minister doesn't seem to mind...   ::

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## N0va

> Of course not. What a dumb question.

 Agreed. It is the best the way it is.

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## Nerms

> Why we need to love gays and negroes to live better? 
> I first seen a negro when I was a child (approximately 7-8 years old). I was shocked, cried, and ran to my mother. She explained me that far away are living black-skinned people (called negroes), and sometimes they are going to Russia, even into our small town Taganrog. 
> So, if they are so good, why they are scaring small children?

 I know this is an old response but i fell out my chair laughing about this reponse.  Im still laughing.

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## Demonic_Duck

Just to confirm... you are trolling, right, SAn? I mean, no-one could actually be that stupid in reality... could they?

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## fabriciocarraro

Well, you guys are russian and you can tell me. 
I'm brazilian and married to a russian women. I have the ordinary brazilian (latin) skin, not black, not white, we call it "moreno". Last year I was in Moscow (in the summer), and everyone was telling me to be carefull with people there, because they might want to beat me up or something like that. 
In the end, nothing happened, not even a police check, but I'm not sute if this was because ALL the time I was with my (very) russian wife, or because things are getting better, or they were just lying? Other chance, maybe people are nicer in the summer? [ :: ] 
We're going to Moscow again in this summer, probably July/August. I intended to go on a football match, like CSKA x Spartak, or some game like that. Would I have any problems at a stadium? 
What I mean is, was I just lucky that I didn't suffer with any prejudice last year, or no?

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## Marcus

I'm also "moreno", and I was beaten three years ago because of it. It was at seven pm in the park on Sunday, where there were a lot of people (probably, it saved me).

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## fabriciocarraro

This fact really worries me =/

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## Basil77

I think the problem with neo-nazis in Russia way too much exaggerated by Western media. I for one never saw them IRL, only by TV.

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## Marcus

Basil77, have you read my previous post?

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## Crocodile

> Basil77, have you read my previous post?

  Yeah, that's the thing. The are no neo-nazis in Russia unless you were beaten by them. And thus starts all the casuistry: "no, there's no neo-nazism in Russia, these young kids weren't any nazis, they were just a bit drunk on Sunday night and just got stupid, so there's no danger to the tourists beyond the regular caution" or "yes, the neo-nazism is very strong in Russia, there are lots of organizations who promote the neo-nazism among the youth and induce them to riot and establish another nazi state; all the tourists should be aware of that and prepare accordingly".  ::

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## Marcus

Крокодил, при чём тут туристы? Тем более белые? 
Я не хочу сказать, что они повсюду. В Москве живёт огромное количество выходцев из Средней Азии, и ничего. Русские в Чечне, например, жить не могут. На Западе действительно преувеличивают роль этих организаций, тем более что они везде существуют. 
Но отрицать их существование нельзя. Базил 77 сказал, что это всё выдумки, что задело меня, поскольку я только что привёл собственный опыт.

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## Marcus

Крокодил, при чём тут туристы? Тем более белые? 
Я не хочу сказать, что они повсюду. В Москве живёт огромное количество выходцев из Средней Азии, и ничего. Русские в Чечне, например, жить не могут. На Западе действительно преувеличивают роль этих организаций, тем более что они везде существуют. 
Но отрицать их существование нельзя. Базил 77 сказал, что это всё выдумки, что задело меня, поскольку я только что привёл собственный опыт.

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## Crocodile

> Крокодил, при чём тут туристы? Тем более белые? 
> Я не хочу сказать, что они повсюду. В Москве живёт огромное количество выходцев из Средней Азии, и ничего. Русские в Чечне, например, жить не могут. На Западе действительно преувеличивают роль этих организаций, тем более что они везде существуют. 
> Но отрицать их существование нельзя. Базил 77 сказал, что это всё выдумки, что задело меня, поскольку я только что привёл собственный опыт.

  Ну, это я в том смысле, что туристы бывают не только белые. Самое главное - никто толком не знает какова роль и размах этих организаций. Один вариант - никаких организаций вообще нет. Примерно это Basil77 и сказал. Вторая (популярная в других местах), что роль этих организаций очень велика и они чуть ли не курируются правительством. Разумеется, истина посредине. Но, мне хотелось бы кое-что показать. Вот смотри, ты - очевидец и пострадавший. А теперь тебе вопрос: почему ты решил, что на тебя напали нео-нацисты?

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## Marcus

Они кричали: "Россия для русских" и ничего, кроме избиения мне не сделали: ничего не забрали, не отняли.

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## Crocodile

> Они кричали: "Россия для русских" и ничего, кроме избиения мне не сделали: ничего не забрали, не отняли.

  Ну, а если они просто прочитали этот лозунг на столбе около пивного ларька? Да и решили, под мухой (+ делать нефига совсем) пристать к непохожему на них гражданину? Ведь, если, допустим меня кто-то спросит: "а чем ты на работе занимаешься?" - я же не сделаю вывод, что это его прислала разведывательная организация и он собирается меня вербовать. Правильно? Где же уверенность в том, что это были именно нео-нацисты? Вот Basil77 их только по телеку-то и видел. А может тем чувакам в телеке заплатили + дали выпить, так они ради прикола и сделали вид, что неонацисты. Мало ли чего либерасто-журналисты придумают, чтобы влиять на народ. Значит - промыли тебе мозги подлюги-журналюги, выдумывающие сенсации на пустом месте, вот тебе и почудились неонацисты в простых, чуть подвыпивших ребятах. А мало ли из-за чего бьют с подпития? Чего увидят, с того и бьют. Могут при случае побить и за ирокез и за его отсутствие. Чем будешь крыть такую логику?  ::

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## Marcus

Они были трезвые и действовали организованно и целенаправленно.

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## Crocodile

> Они были трезвые и действовали организованно и целенаправленно.

 Я понимаю, что для тебя - участника событий - это очевидно. Но кажется ли тебе, что это может быть объективно доказано, например в суде? И потом, вот допустим, Васька и Гришка сделали дуду начитались на форуме всякого про коловрат, да и решили перейти от слов к делу. Действовали организованно и целенаправленно. Но почему ты решил, что они неонацисты и принадлежат к какой-то организации? Кроме того, мне интересен твой дальнейший опыт: ты пробовал обратиться в полицию милицию по факту нападения?

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## Marcus

Травмпункт обратился в милицию, но я не помнил нападавших хорошо, поэтому толку от меня было мало.

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## Crocodile

> Травмпункт обратился в милицию, но я не помнил нападавших хорошо, поэтому толку от меня было мало.

  Ну, ладно. Смысл моего троллизма заключался в том, чтобы показать тебе, что то, очевидно для одного, вполне может являться несуществующим для другого. Для тебя неонацизм - реальность, а для других - выдумка из телевизора. Это всё к нашему предыдущему разговору об СССР. Надеюсь, ты не обиделся на мои неуместные подколки.

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## fabriciocarraro

Neo-nazis or not, either way this is a very worrying thing for us not russians.  
I see your point, Crocodile, but you must agree with me that this is not a thing you hear so much about other countries. Can we say there are no neo-fascists in Italy? No, we can't. But have you ever heard something like "Hey, be careful in Italy, they might attack you."? I haven't.

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## Ramil

You can be beaten in Russia regardless of the color of your skin. Even a perfectly white law abiding person can be beaten any time. That's a sad fact. But. If a white man beats the other white man this won't be called nazism. 
Crocodile, there are, perhaps, a few hundred people in Russia who CAN be called neo-nazis. They have ideology, they have a consistent political program, they rally the followers, etc. That's politics and they don't beat people just to make an example. What concerns the other so called neo-nazis - their ideology is non-existant at all. They were probably affected by some nazi or xenophobic propaganda and they're not overly bright in general. Still, neo-nazism represents politics while those who attack foreighners or caucassians on the streets - aren't. They would attack a white man immediately after they'd beated someone with different skin color. That's just a belligerent street mass of young lumpens who suck at anything useful. Dare I call this 'neo-nazism'? I doubt it. 
P.S. This post is for clarification of the terms only. This won't make any difference for those who would be unlucky enough to get beaten.

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## Crocodile

> Still, neo-nazism represents politics while those who attack foreighners or caucassians on the streets - aren't.

 I agree with that definition. The neo-nazism would strive to get the power first and then attack the foreigners or the caucassians on the streets or at their homes on a large scale in a lawful manner. Those who do that now on the small scale are just the enthusiasts of the neo-nazism.  ::

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## fabriciocarraro

I agree, Ramil. 
As I said, _"Neo-nazis or not, either way this is a very worrying thing for us not russians."_. Even for russians then. 
Forgive me the words, but that's really fucked up. =/

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## it-ogo

> I agree, Ramil. 
> As I said, _"Neo-nazis or not, either way this is a very worrying thing for us not russians."_. Even for russians then. 
> Forgive me the words, but that's really fucked up. =/

 So, what you need is a street violent crime statistics to compare with your own city. If you have an exotic look you are in bigger danger because you attract more attention. But a man wearing bright pink bodystocking will be in a much bigger danger anyway. 
But I don't think you should expect any spite from common people for you being "moreno".

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## fabriciocarraro

I hope so, it-ogo! =) 
Probably my city would be more dangerous in numbers than Moscow or Piter, the thing is that here you would never be beaten or robbed just because of your skin color.  
Anyway, I've been in Moscow for 1 month, going out everyday with my wife, and nothing happened at all, not even strange looks, so I'm not THAT scared, you know? But my father-in-law told me to be careful if I wanted to go to a football match, or better not go, because of those things.

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## Hanna

Fabricio you are from Sao Paulo, Brazil - right? 
From the things I have heard, I believe that is a more dangerous city than Moscow! I know a woman whose brother got kidnapped in Sao Paulo in the 1980s. Her family paid ransom to the kidnappers, but the brother was never returned, probably killed. I have also heard about people using chauffeured cars in the city because there is such a big risk of being mugged (rich people, probably, but still... )   
Of course, it is worrying if random dark skinned people are attacked for no reason in Moscow. Not sure how true that is... but if there IS truth to it, then I wouldn't want to go there if I was black or mixed race. Heard many horrible stories of muggings and shady setups in Russia in the 90s but I THINK such things have stopped now, or are less common.  
I once met an African man who had studied in Moscow. He had a good impression of Moscow and did not mention anything about racism.

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## Basil77

> Базил 77 сказал, что это всё выдумки, что задело меня, поскольку я только что привёл собственный опыт.

 Я такого не говорил. Я сказал, что западные сми преувеличивают масштаб проблемы и остаюсь при своём мнении. Мне очень жаль, что с тобой случилась неприятная история. Кстати, только сегодня слушал по радио начальника московской милиции и он сообщил интересные факты: 47% преступлений против личности в Москве совершаются приезжими, большинство из которых принадлежит к "неславянским", так сказать, национальностям. Около 70% населения Москвы  - этнические русские (для сравнения в среднем по России - более 80%). Из этих цифр можно сделать два нехитрых вывода: Москва - гораздо более мультикультурный город, чем среднестатистический российский крупный город. И второй: русские гораздо чаще оказываются жертвами насилия со стороны приезжих, чем сами становятся преступниками. Только почему-то если несколько русских бьют кавказца - они нацисты, а если несколько кавказцев бьют русского, они просто хулиганы. Я не оправдываю ни тех, ни других: и то и другое отвратительно. Просто либерастическое нытьё про засилие русских фашиков уже достало.

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## fabriciocarraro

> Fabricio you are from Sao Paulo, Brazil - right? 
> From the things I have heard, I believe that is a more dangerous city than Moscow! I know a woman whose brother got kidnapped in Sao Paulo in the 1980s. Her family paid ransom to the kidnappers, but the brother was never returned, probably killed. I have also heard about people using chauffeured cars in the city because there is such a big risk of being mugged (rich people, probably, but still... )   
> Of course, it is worrying if random dark skinned people are attacked for no reason in Moscow. Not sure how true that is... but if there IS truth to it, then I wouldn't want to go there if I was black or mixed race. Heard many horrible stories of muggings and shady setups in Russia in the 90s but I THINK such things have stopped now, or are less common.  
> I once met an African man who had studied in Moscow. He had a good impression of Moscow and did not mention anything about racism.

 Hanna, read the topic, some posts back you can read one guy that said he was beaten for not being russian, because of his skin.  
As I said back some posts also, probably São Paulo is more dangerous in numbers than Moscow, but the "reasons" for it are not the same. Here, one would NEVER be beaten/robbed/etc because of his/her skin color. You probably would be robbed if you go with a fancy Iphone, jewelery, in the middle of a favela. The same in the bad areas of Moscow. The same in the bad areas of New York. Anywhere.

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## Marcus

Их называют нацистами по факту. У них не было никаких причин меня бить. Мы даже не разговаривали, и я их никак не задел. Я был с другом (белым), и они его не тронули. Они ничего у меня не взяли и кричали: "Россия для русских".

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## Marcus

Хотя это тоже справедливо:  

> В Москве живёт огромное количество выходцев из Средней Азии, и ничего. Русские в Чечне, например, жить не могут. На Западе действительно преувеличивают роль этих организаций, тем более что они везде существуют.
> Но отрицать их существование нельзя.

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## Vadim M.

А ещё такие "скинхеды" бывают.
Осторожно! Это видео не способствует укреплению дружбы между народами. YouTube - &#x202a;"Ты русский?" Если "да", то нокаут&#x202c;&rlm;  
Всякого у нас можно найти.

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## Hanna

I just discovered something... interesting... or disturbing, not quite sure.  
Russians are the new idols of the anti immigration movement in Northern Europe! I had no idea these people were so keen on Russia. I was just scrolling the massive Scandinavian forum for everything and anything under the sun and decided to check out the latest from the national socialists or whatever they call themselves these days (they always change names).  
Apparently the perception is that "Russia has protected Europe against Moslem invasion for centuries..." "Russians fight wars with a singlemindedness that others lack", "Russians are the strongest single group within the white movement etc, etc". They are talking about "our Russian brothers" and lots of other things along those lines. Interesting, since this movement hated Russians about 20 years ago. But now they are planning trips to Russia etc.  
I can't be fussed to translate it because these posts are generally quite stupid...  but I have never seen a Western European person express so much admiration for Russia as these people do.  
This makes me wonder whether racism in Russia isn't a bigger problem than I had understood.

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## Crocodile

I read one of their books recently and I have to admit I haven't had such good laughs in a while.  ::  There are so many things to quote, so I'm not sure which one is the best. This one came up right away:   

> Важно отметить, что Свастика не  только религиозный символ. Это символ несущий знание о формах мироустройства.  Астрономы наблюдают множество галактик в форме Свастики. И наша галактика  (Млечный Путь) имеет Свастичную форму. Только с Земли эту форму не увидишь. Наше  Солнце находится в одном из Свастичных рукавов, а сама наша солнечная система  лежит в плоскости вращения нашей Свастичной галактики. Мы видим с Земли Млечный  Путь только как полосу. А структуру Млечного Пути можно увидеть только с планет,  перпендикулярных плоскости вращения, например, с планет созвездия Большой и  Малой Медведицы. *Именно оттуда пришли наши предки и принесли знания о Свастике.*  Это макрокосмос.

  ::

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## it-ogo

> ...This makes me wonder whether racism in Russia isn't a bigger problem than I had understood.

 Maybe because of historical lack of democracy in comparison to the West Russia has a tradition of low responsibility in political ideas. It means that it is more usual for a Russian to have an extreme political idea of any sort and degree of insanity. And in common life people are usually more tolerant to your "bugs in the head", unless you are making some direct violence.

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## Marcus

> Maybe because of historical lack of democracy in comparison to the West Russia has a tradition of low responsibility in political ideas. It means that it is more usual for a Russian to have an extreme political idea of any sort and degree of insanity. And in common life people are usually more tolerant to your "bugs in the head", unless you are making some direct violence.

 Какая ещё "демократия"и тем более её недостаток? "Демократия" - не более чем пропагандистский термин, использующийся Западом для самовозвеличивания и самооправдания. Какая на Западе политическая ответственность у простых людей?

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## Marcus

> Interesting, since this movement hated Russians about 20 years ago. But now they are planning trips to Russia etc.

 They probably know nothing about Russia, so their opinion is not based on Russian reality.

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## Basil77

> I just discovered something... interesting... or disturbing, not quite sure...

 Don't pay much attention, 99% of those people are just stupid schoolboys. The really disturbing is the remaining percent, wich are very cynic adult people who are using those kids for playing dirty political games playing on the worst strings of human nature.

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## sperk

These groups see that all Western countries are doing their utmost to flood their countries with non-whites while Russian isn't, hence they think Russians are racists and that Russia is the "last hope." Problem is they don't know any Russians, don't speak Russian and have never been there. The occasional high profile racially motivated attack confirms their views. But they aren't aware of nationalist/racists (whatever label) being put away, sometimes for life depending on the crime(s), as the 
Western press wouldn't touch those stories with a 10 foot pole.

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## Marcus

There are a lot of immigrants from Central Asia and some other places in Russia too. The difference is we don't have developed social policy for immigrants. So they rarely move here with families, they just work here and send money home.

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## fabriciocarraro

Have you guys seen what happened? _
"На 90-й минуте матча «Крылья Советов» - «Анжи» (0:3) в защитника махачкалинцев Роберто Карлоса с трибуны кинули банан.  ВИДЕО СКАНДАЛЬНОГО ЭПИЗОДА СМОТРИТЕ ЗДЕСЬ 
Футболист в знак протеста ушел с поля. Сел на скамейку запасных и накрылся полотенцем. 
Напомним, что в начале сезона Роберто Карлосу уже пришлось испытать подобные эмоции. Тогда в Санкт-Петербурге в рамках второго тура во время поднятия государственного флага РФ бразильцу протянул банан неизвестный, которого найти так и не удалось. За тот инцидент «Зенит» был оштрафован на 300 тыс. рублей. "_ 
I also felt outraged for him.

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## Hanna

Fabricio, that is just silly, childish, rude behaviour. Somebody should give them a slap so they remember for next time! I don't think it's racism precisely, is it? Wouldn't they have treated a white Brazilian the same way, or what do you think? There is nothing political about a banana, is there?

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## it-ogo

And what exactly is so wrong about those bananas? Is banana a symbol of something abusive?

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## it-ogo

Ah, so he was black and it is because bananas are originally from Africa as well as black people? Well, if someone in Afrika will give Russian guy a bottle of vodka, I doubt it will be taken as abusion, unless it is a vodka of extremely bad quality.

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## it-ogo

> _
> "На 90-й минуте матча «Крылья Советов» - «Анжи» (0:3) в защитника махачкалинцев Роберто Карлоса с трибуны кинули банан. 
> Футболист в знак протеста ушел с поля. Сел на скамейку запасных и накрылся полотенцем._

 One more point. That is a guy who is making sport show, a star. He is expected by public to be "a real man". In that situation he had several options to earn respect from simple public. He could take a banana and make with it something funny, he could throw a banana back, he could show a middle finger or a fist to the banana thrower, he could just ignore the situation - that would be good enough. Instead he behaved like a spoiled child.  
After that he must be ready to expect much more bananas from his former fans, I think.

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## Hanna

> Well, if someone in Afrika will give Russian guy a bottle of vodka, I doubt it will be taken as abusion, unless it is a vodka of extremely bad quality.

 Well on the one hand, I see the connection Africa > Banana > Roberto Carlos > mixed race guy.. 
(but it is actually quite far fetched, and bananas are just..... silly! ) And Roberto Carlos is not even particularly black, is he? He looks a bit like a Southern European person to me. Greek maybe.  
But Russians and vodka is the sort of example I was thinking of, but I couldn't think of a good example.  *And is it racism on football matches, when the fans from other countries make the Nazi salute and shout "Sieg Heil" to the Germans? It happens every time they have an international game.*  
Personally I think both the bananas and the hitler salutes are tasteless, and the vodka would be an expensive joke. 
People who can't behave like adults and respect a professional player like Roberto Carlos should be banned from games.

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## it-ogo

> Well on the one hand, I see the connection Africa > Banana > Roberto Carlos > mixed race guy.. 
> (but it is actually quite far fetched, and bananas are just..... silly! ) And Roberto Carlos is not even particularly black, is he? He looks a bit like a Southern European person to me. Greek maybe.

 Then I don't get the point at all.
Of course people who throw fruits to the football players should be penaltied if caught. That's all. No connection to the topic.

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## Basil77

> He could take a banana and make with it something funny, he could throw a banana back, he could show a middle finger or a fist to the banana thrower, he could just ignore the situation - that would be good enough. Instead he behaved like a spoiled child.

 If you'd watch the video you'd see that he actually trew it back before he left the stadium.

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## it-ogo

> If you'd watch the video you'd see that he actually trew it back before he left the stadium.

 I can't watch video from where I am now. So first he did right second he did wrong.

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## fabriciocarraro

The connection is banana -> monkeys -> black people. I don't know if you guys are just being silly with the vodka example, it has nothing to do with it.
It is definitely about his race, not about being brazilian. If it was Kaká there, this would NEVER happen.  
I don't know if you guys follow football news, but I do, and that happens A LOT, not only in Russia, but with non-white people everywhere. The most famous example is Eto'o, the camaronese. Also, the supporters from Zenit had already declared that they don't want black people on the team, and their coach agreed. 
I totally agree with Roberto Carlos' behaviour in this situation. It is not the first time that this happened, and it is indeed very offensive. If he would keep "being ok" with this issue (and it's not a minor one) it would never stop happening. I agree with you Hanna, these people should be banished.  
One example about Eto'o here: YouTube - &#x202a;Eto&#39;o being abuse!&#x202c;&rlm;

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## fabriciocarraro

This is what the other team (Krylya Sovetov) posted on their official website today:  _"Мы сделаем все, чтобы найти этого подонка! 
Футбольный клуб "Крылья Советов" приносит свои искренние извинения капитану команды "Анжи" Роберто Карлосу за инцидент, произошедший в конце матча и носивший явно провокационный характер. Мы негодуем вместе с ним, вместе с футболистами и болельщиками "Анжи", да и вообще вместе со всеми здравомыслящими людьми, которым омерзительны подобные проявления расизма. Самарских болельщиков всегда отличало самое доброжелательное отношение к футболистам разных национальностей. В "Крыльях Советов" играли и играют представители более чем тридцати стран всех континентов, и в клубе и вокруг него всегда были дружелюбие и взаимопонимание. Да и сегодняшней игре предшествовал товарищеский матч между болельщиками "Крыльев Советов" и "Анжи", который прошел в самой доброжелательной обстановке. Аплодисментами были встречены на стадионе "Металлург" главный тренер команды "Анжи" Гаджи Гаджиев, капитан команды Роберто Карлос и камерунский защитник Бенуа Ангбва, который был любимцем публики в свою бытность игроком "Крыльев Советов". И эта безобразная расистская выходка подонка, которого и человеком-то назвать сложно, омрачила сегодняшний футбольный матч и вызвала глубокое возмущение всех болельщиков "Крыльев Советов". Руководство футбольного клуба "Крылья Советов" заверяет, что приложит все усилия, чтобы найти и наказать подонка, оскорбившего замечательного уважаемого футболиста, которого обожают во всем мире, в том числе и в нашем городе. 
Просим всех, кто может оказать содействие в поиске человека, чей поступок возмутил всю футбольную общественность, обратиться по телефону +7 (937) 173-46-74 офицеру безопасности ПФК "Крылья Советов" Тагиру Хусаинову. 
Благодарим за понимание и великодушие Роберто Карлоса, общавшегося после матча с самарскими болельщиками, и футбольный клуб "Анжи", разместивший на своем сайте в высшей степени корректную и благородную оценку этого инцидента."_

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## sperk

"Racism in Brazil is of the worst kind" Open Mic: Brazilian Football and Racism | Bleacher Report

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## Vadim M.

А я бы до всей этой истории и не подумал бы, что бананом можно оскорбить.
Я с детства очень люблю бананы!

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## fabriciocarraro

> "Racism in Brazil is of the worst kind" Open Mic: Brazilian Football and Racism | Bleacher Report

 Who wrote that? A brazilian, living here? I don't think so, but if he's brazilian he does not follow football, you know why? Because he didn't know that our goalkeeper in the World Cup of 1950 was black (Barbosa), we had black and mixed guys since our first World Cup in 1930 (Araken Patuska, for example), our best player of all time (and probably the best in the history of football) is Pelé, and guess his color? 
I have NEVER heard anything bad about Pelé being black or anything like that, and I don't remember anyone saying bad things about Dida, or Romário, or Nilton Santos, or Garrincha, or Djalma Santos, or Jairzinho, or Robinho, or Ronaldinho, or......etc etc etc because of their color. 
Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

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