# Forum About Russia Society  Question for Russian techies - Russian IT industry?

## Hanna

One of the main factors that inspired me to start studying Russian was that I was so impressed some Russian developers that I have met through work. They have stood out as miles ahead of Brits, Indians, Americans I've worked with. Plus the internet is packed with awesome freeware and shareware that was developed by Russians.  
I think this is an area where Russia could become really big - and not as an outsourcing country but as an inventor.  
I have head that St Petersburg is developing an IT industry - this is particularly interesting for me, but I also want to hear about other places.  
Does anybody work in IT? What sort of job do you do, for what type of company or organisation?  
Where are the big IT centres in Russia?  
Do most households in Russia have a computer that's got internet? 
What are your thoughts on the future of IT and software (hardware?) production in Russia?

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## BappaBa

> Where are the big IT centres in Russia?

 Zelenograd http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd     

> Do most households in Russia have a computer that's got internet?

  http://rumetrika.rambler.ru/publ/art...l?article=3764

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## mishau_

> What are your thoughts on the future of IT and software (hardware?) production in Russia?

 Hiring young skillful developers these days for me is not so easy, because they do obtain their cerificates, but they can't  develope a simple "hello world" program.  
However, our educational system is amied to start an enginierning project from scratch, I mean that any engineer could examine an unfamilair problem and find the solution. So it's directed to solving predominatelly unique tasks in a number of areas. What our educational system is missing is that it doesn't teach you how to put your invention on a production line, how to rule your staff, how to standardize your solution, and so forth.  So, concretely about IT, yes, you can find a decent solution, but it will come with ungly user interface or you can come across a product with excellentely graphical design but also with totally bad program architecture. 
An interesting fact, I talked to people who work in IT consulting spheres. They told me that such companies as microsoft, ibm, sap have very good systems, but they can't compete with the Russian 1C. They say 1C is horrible to work and support, but it meets all the businnes requirements of Russian reality.

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## Ramil

::  
1C is a spawn of hell. I know that!

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## delog

> They say 1C is horrible to work and support

 They are right  ::  This stuff can't be called programm. I'd prefer to mention WinRar, FineReader, CuneiForm, Lingvo, Kaspersky, dr.Web, True Image, Outpost Firewall... Tetris  ::   

> What are your thoughts on the future of IT and software (hardware?) production in Russia?

 Hardware production have no future in Russia, imho, because it requires the huge starting sums which concentrated in hands of Roman Abramovich and other people arranged around oil feeding trough. But software production have the radiant future in Russia. I think so. But *mishau_* is right - we know how to make, but we not know how to sell. It is the big problem in Russia as concerns not only the IT industries. We are bad businessmen.

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## mishau_

> We are bad businessmen.

 I'd say bad managers, not businessmen, to be more exactly. We can make profit, but we can't provide infrastucture. We know how to find new clients, and we've no idea how to ecourage them to stay, and so on and so on  
WinRar, FineReader, CuneiForm, Lingvo, Kaspersky, dr.Web, True Image, Outpost Firewall... 
Good but I'd like to show off this:  http://www.neuroproject.ru/index.php 
Simple and genious.  
These guys develop software for those http://www.neuroshell.com/ 
It's very intersting (for me) to try to get some buck on it. Genetical Programming, Genetical Algorithm and Neuroshells in businness;

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## Hanna

Lots of interesing information! 
So it's all in Zelenograd? 
Nothing in St Petersburg as I had thought? 
What about somewhere further East? 
It's silly to think that Russians are worse businessmen than anybody else. I don't think so... If the Chinese can do it, for goodness sake.... 
I also agree that the Asians have already cornered the hardware industry...  
Mishau's comments were interesting. 
Agree that university training in programming appears to be useless - this is true in the UK. I thought Russia was more serious and had stricter acceptance / examination criteria at universities. Plus everyone knows that Russia is great for maths/physics and some of these people go into computing.  
But I agree - it's a universal problem: Some people who can drag and drop a bit in Visual Basic call themselves programmers... And get hired because they are cheap. 
And the people in India -oh my good. You have to spell everything out to them word by word - as if they were a robot or something! I don't see how they could be running anything other than outsourcing businesses if they cannot think for themselves. 
That's why I've liked working with Russian techies because management has been very easy. In most cases the people I've worked with have been much better technically than me, so they have 'told' me what I needed to manage and I just go ahead and plan and communicate accordingly Plus the BS less than most English people do, instead tell the truth about problems immediately. Several guys don't really seem to take a female manager very seriously though, but that's a different story... I don't need a lot of respect anyway - just good results.  
I also agree that the user interface is not usually these guys' strong point. 
Luckily if you know this, you can get them working with a good graphical designer from the beginning. After all - this is the easy bit in development and it's not even very important for bespoke business software.   *Interesting to hear about 1C  - the SAP of Russia? * 
If media stories in Europe could shift AWAY from negative "Russia-is-an agressive-dictatorship" type of reports and instead portray Russia as a normal country... then I think Russian software could really become big in Europe. Of course, some serious marketing would be needed. But a lot of people would be ver pleased to have an alternative to US vendors. A seriously good trade agreement with the EU and mutual relaxation of visa restrictions would also help. Not sure if that's on the table at all.  
Also - Like it or not; a decent proportion of people in the IT industry have to be able to speak decent English. Good communications is key.  
IT sales as I've seen it is usually complete NONSENSE! Not difficult. *Anybody can do it if they don't mind bulls**ting. *  (i do, unfortunately)   

> Formula:  (this is how the companies that I've worked for have done it)
> 1) Tell the customer (in the bid) that you can build (or you have) a software that can meet practically all their needs. Use complicated technical jargon that is hard to understand but that contains lots of cliches that the customer will recognise. 
> 2) Give them a MUCH lower price (half) than what you know that the real price will be. State that "extras" will be billable separately according to standard change control practices. (=they will end up paying the full price through change control) 
> 3) Make sure the male colleagues go out and get drunk with the customer, or at least spend some social time together, like long lunches or golf. If you are a woman, flirt a bit with the boss at the customer's.

 Simplified but true. The rest is down to luck.  
If D. Medvedev thinks that Russia is too dependent on energy exports, (I read that he does..) then in my opinion he really should try to support the software industry in every way possible.
It's the future.

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## mishau_

> Lots of interesing information! 
> So it's all in Zelenograd? 
> Nothing in St Petersburg as I had thought? 
> What about somewhere further East?

 Not exactly, St Petersburg is a great school. The school. They usually win omni-Russian and international IT olympic conpetitions and so on. The Kazan school is also great, but if you have a surname such as Ivanov, Petrov and so on, it is hard for you to get a good job there. And also Novosibirsk (Новосибирск). And in Youkraine -- Kiev school (Киев), Kharkiev (Харьков).

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## Hanna

Thanks again for explaining! I'm guessing you work in IT, huh? I do too - used to be a programmer, now I am a project manager. 
Guessing from the comment about Kazan that there is a slight discrimination against ethnic Russians in Tatarstan. I have never met a Tatar as far as I know... But in Swedish "tatar" it's used for gypsies (tsigani) - not sure how that happened since it's clearly not the same people.

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## mishau_

> Thanks again for explaining! I'm guessing you work in IT, huh? I do too - used to be a programmer, now I am a project manager. 
> Guessing from the comment about Kazan that there is a slight discrimination against ethnic Russians in Tatarstan. I have never met a Tatar as far as I know... But in Swedish "tatar" it's used for gypsies (tsigani) - not sure how that happened since it's clearly not the same people.

 Tatars and gypsies were formerly nomads. I think that the way Russians live Kazan is such not because of a nationality issue, but rather due to a sort of clan system. Yes, I do some businnes on IT, now and then, moslty in business intergation spheres. However, now I'm meaning to switch to stock speculation or a sort of, but I'm still undecided which is better: to buy and sell securities or to buy and sell invented strategies (based on IT) or both.

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## Ramil

> I have never met a Tatar as far as I know...

 You did.  ::  Virtually at least. I'm not a 100% Tatar though, only by 50%.

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## Hanna

Oh cool!   ::   It's a "virtual" honour to meet you!
Anna Akmatova was Tatar, right?  She is fantastic! 
And Zemfira! _(I really like her - thanks for the tip earlier - I checked her bio on  Wikipedia and it was mentioned in the wiki blurb.)_  
Tatar look the same as "regular" Russians - or?  If people talk the same and look the same - then I can't imagine that there are any serious problems between the groups.  
Anyway, do you work in IT too?

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## Ramil

> Tatar look the same as "regular" Russians - or?

 Some do, some don't. A person who has been living in Russia for a long period of time would distinguish one from another I think.   

> If people talk the same and look the same - then I can't imagine that there are any serious problems between the groups.

 There isn't any frictions between these ethnic groups. At least none that I know of. If there are - they are rather minor.   

> Anyway, do you work in IT too?

 No, although I used to work in that sphere too.

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## it-ogo

> Anna Akmatova was Tatar, right?

 Well, she liked to derive her origin from Tatars. But in fact she had not much Tatar blood (if she had). "Akhmatova" is her pen-name, the real last name is Gorenko.   

> If people talk the same and look the same - then I can't imagine that there are any serious problems between the groups.

 There are assimilated Tatars who live all across the xUSSR and differ mainly in names and there is no other noticeable difference between them and other Russian-spoken community.  And there are Tatars from Tatarstan and nearby around, they keep language and culture (more or less) and... I don't know much about them.  ::

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## Оля

> Tatar look the same as "regular" Russians - or?

 I definitely wouldn't say so.

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## Hanna

Olly is back!    ::   (I didn't see any posts by you for a while, and I didn't post myself either).  
The Tatars are a little bit mysterious I think.
There seems to be no simple answers about them.  
In "Brat" there was a figure called Tatar. In fact, Danila's brother... So I guess they were both Tatars then, or?

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## it-ogo

> In "Brat" there was a figure called Tatar. In fact, Danila's brother... So I guess they were both Tatars then, or?

 No. 
I my experience Tatars usually have specific names (I mean first names in addition to the ethnic last names). There are either Tatar traditional names (like Ramil  ::  ) or Communist-style names (like Marat in favor of French revolutioner... well, it sounds almost like traditional Tatar name Murat) or some western European names including exotic ones (like Roald). They avoid common Russian names (like Danila).

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## BappaBa

> Tatar look the same as "regular" Russians - or?

 Who is who? =) 
Сергей Шакуров  
Юрий Шевчук

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## Оля

> Сергей Шакуров

 Он татарин????????   ::

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## BappaBa

> Originally Posted by BappaBa  Сергей Шакуров   Он татарин????????

 Оль, он Каюмович. Я сам недавно узнал.   

> Родом Сергей Каюмович из Тетюшского района, однако, как признался, в родных краях он не был уже 40 лет. 
> - Я и по-татарски не знаю ни слова, ну, может быть, пару ругательных, - улыбается актер.

 http://www.tatarstan.kp.ru/2005/09/10/doc81968/ 
Еще один супер-актер: Геннадий Рашидович Сайфулин

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## Ramil

Рашид Нургалиев - министр внутренних дел РФ

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## Оля

> Оль, он Каюмович. Я сам недавно узнал.

 Я знала его отчество, но как-то никогда не задумывалась, почему оно такое.  ::  Ну все-таки он наверняка не 100% татарин, мама русская, наверняка.
Обожаю его, воть.   ::

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## Hanna

So they *sometimes* have a little bit darker complexion than average Russians, and they have higher cheekbones... 
I don't think I would notice it. 
If I met these people somewhere in Europe, and had to guess their nationalities, then I would guess: 
Геннадий Рашидович Сайфулин --German. 
Сергей Шакуров --- Scandinavian
Юрий Шевчук ---- Greek
Рашид Нургалиев (without uniform!) is harder, but I would probably guess he was Greek or Turkish. He could even be Lapp, I suppose, because he's got slightly Asian looking eyes and high cheekbones.  
I guess that's what happens when one single country is larger than the whole European continent.

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## BappaBa

> Я знала его отчество, но как-то никогда не задумывалась, почему оно такое.  Ну все-таки он наверняка не 100% татарин, мама русская, наверняка.

 Да, мама, похоже, русская.  

> Обожаю его, воть.

 + мильён. =)

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## mishau_

> I would immediately guess that Геннадий Рашидович Сайфулин was German.

 Hahahahaha   ::     

> Рашид Нургалиев (without uniform!) is harder, but I would probably guess he was Greek or Turkish. He could be Lapp, I suppose, because he's got slightly Asian looking eyes...

 ohohohohohhahahahaha   ::   ::   ::   
Sometimes it's very amusing to know what foreigners imagine about us.   ::   
ok, 
I know a Tatar girl that worked for a municipality as the head of the administrative department; and she was so stupid that her chief finally demoted her. She came from Tatarstan and she thought that people grabed millions here in Moscow  and she demanded a personal car and other things. She told her chief that puplic transport was uncomfortable for people like she was. 
Anyhow, she was a beautiful girl and I think the predecessor of her chief gave her that position because of some other things, not because of her skills. Actually, the predecessor was fired as being embroiled in a corruption row. 
And one more story if i'm not too boring. 
One day there were the Days of Belaruss in Moscow, and there were a lot of concerts and other public entertainment. A chief of municipality who was a Tatar gathered his staff and tole them: "please take part in entertainments, support our slavic brothers". Then after a short pause and he corrected himself: "I mean YOUR slavic brothers".   
Портрет татарина    
Портрет Аслу

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## Ramil

I'm a bit familiar with the ethymology of the word Tatar. The truth is that the present ethnic Tatars called themselves the Bulgars (Булгары - the stress is on у) I don't know whether the rumors that the population of present Bulgaria has migrated from the middle Volga to the Balkans fleeing from the Mongols invasion are true, but the Slavs called Tatars nearly all tribes that dwelled beyond the Volga river. The Slavs heard their native tongues and they heard 'tar-tar-tar'. There is a term 'татаро-монгольское нашествие' which describes an ivasion of Genghis Khan who drove all the tribes he met in his march to the West into his army. So one could find a representative of nearly all nations that lived to the East from the Volga river there, but the Slavs called all of them either Tartars or Mongols.

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## Оля

> If I met these people somewhere in Europe, and had to guess their nationalities, then I would guess: 
> Геннадий Рашидович Сайфулин --German. 
> Сергей Шакуров --- Scandinavian
> Юрий Шевчук ---- Greek
> Рашид Нургалиев (without uniform!) is harder, but I would probably guess he was Greek or Turkish. He could even be Lapp, I suppose, because he's got slightly Asian looking eyes and high cheekbones.  
> I guess that's what happens when one single country is larger than the whole European continent.

 Remember that not everyone of these people is 100% Tatar. For example, Сергей Шакуров's mother was Russian. Also, I don't know if his father was 100% Tatar. His appearance is completely Russian/European for me. And I want to add that he's a great actor.  ::

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## Hanna

> Портрет Аслу

 100% looks Italian!   ::   ::   
Thanks Ramil - the explanation about Bulgaria makes a lot of sense. That fellow, Nurgaliev could be Bulgarian too. I just didn't think of it because I hardly know anybody from there, and I haven't been there. But I dated a guy from there for a short while, here in London. He looked quite a bit like Nurgaliev, although younger.

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## mishau_

> Originally Posted by Johanna  Tatar look the same as "regular" Russians - or?       
> 			
> 				If people talk the same and look the same - then I can't imagine that there are any serious problems between the groups.
> 			
> 		  There isn't any frictions between these ethnic groups. At least none that I know of. If there are - they are rather minor.

 http://news.km.ru/v_kazani_proshel_antirusskij_mar  _В столице Татарстана 12 октября прошел очередной, 20-й по счету т. н. «День памяти защитников Казани», павших при взятии города войсками Ивана Грозного, ежегодно используемый татарскими националистами для пропаганды своих идей, попахивающих откровенной русофобией._ 
Я также помню бесконечные попытки отделения Татарстана, и введение латиницы в качестве татарского алфавита, и в конце концов, татары - большей частью мусульмане, а тарарский язык - второй по распространённости в России после русского - ближе к узбекскому. Правда, сколько слышал татарскую речь, все звуки в произношении похожи на русские, поэтому в непривычки кажется что это русский со словами задом наперед.  
Johanna, any1, would you like to try to learn the Tarar language?  ::   http://www.tatar.com.ru/index.php

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## Ramil

> http://news.km.ru/v_kazani_proshel_antirusskij_mar

 I'm aware of this, but I travel there quite often and I have many relatives (my father's branch) living there. Tatarstan simply cannot separate from Russia even if the Tatars really wanted to (which they don't. Besides, the republic has a great deal of autonomy from the center). There are few nationalists but nobody takes them seriously enough. Do not forget that a great deal of Russians, and other nationalities live in Tatarstan and the fact that many Tatars are interbred with other ethnic groups and a great many of Tatars live outside Tatarstan in other parts of Russia - in Siberia, for example.

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## mishau_

> I'm aware of this, but I travel there quite often and I have many relatives (my father's branch) living there. Tatarstan simply cannot separate from Russia even if the Tatars really wanted to (which they don't. Besides, the republic has a great deal of autonomy from the center). There are few nationalists but nobody takes them seriously enough.

 I know a guy, Russian, who grew up in Kazan and he suffered from constant hooligan attacks when he was a teenager because he was Russian. Here in Moscow we, teenagers, also liked to beat everyone from farther disctricts, but if we were from the same yard, the same street, we never fought, no matter what nationality we were.   

> Do not forget that a great deal of Russians, and other nationalities live in Tatarstan and the fact that many Tatars are interbred with other ethnic groups and a great many of Tatars live outside Tatarstan in other parts of Russia - in Siberia, for example.

 I know a Tatar who lives next door. He is an alcoholic and he drinks so much that any Russian drunkard could be full of jealosy. However, he is not a bad pal at all. Never pays debts though.

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## mishau_

Just dug up this for you, Johanna, right a few days ago.  hope it's easy enough for you to understand
17-18 октября в Кирове прошла XII Открытая командная олимпиада школьников по программированию. Олимпиада, которая проходила в 12-ый раз, является традиционной и уже получила всероссийское признание, ее участниками и призерами наряду с учащимися школ Кирова и Кировской области являются школьники из Москвы и Московской области, Казани, Ижевска, Чебоксар, Набережных Челнов, Сыктывкара, Нижнекамска, Озерска.
В этом году *первое место* заняла команда *г. Казани*, лицей при КГУ (Ключников, Баширов, Грачев). Второе место заняла команда г. Мытищи, Мытищинская Школа программистов (Ермичев, Ляпин, Журавлев). Хозяевам турнира - г. Кирову в этом году досталось лишь третье место (Тарасов, Южанин, Суворов), а лучшая Московская команда - на 6 месте.   ::  
А питерцы чёт ваще в углу мира. 
Мытищи also win a lot in Russian olympiads. I din't know.  http://www.informatics.ru/

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