# Forum Other Languages English for Russians - Изучаем английский язык Learn English - Грамматика, переводы, словарный запас  Oy, Britishers, help me out here!

## Pravit

I was wondering if British English differentiated East Asians(people from countries like China, Japan, Korea, etc.) and South Asians(people from countries like India, Bangladesh, etc.). In American English the term "Asian" seems to be applied to both of them, which is rather strange, since the only thing "Asian" they have in common is living in the geographical region "Asia."

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## scotcher

Not really no, the term depends very much on context (or extra modifiers) here too.

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## Antono

The same applies for Europeans.  ::  
For many US Americans, the centre of the world is their country which they call (incorrectly) America.
I recently heard from a US-American girl that she had to learn most things she knows about geography and the world in general on her own, because it wasn't taught properly in school.

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## Евгения Белякова

I live in the US too. I also agree that adleast in my school, they do not properly teach geography to us. Of course everyone knows what China, Japan, Australia, Spain, France and well known countries like that. But some of the Americans, in my school, don't know what Ukraine is, they don't know Lithuania, Latvia, Kazakhstan, Romania. Mind that I am talking about my school, I am not stereotyping all Americans so don't get mad.

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## DDT

I must say, Евгения, that it is only recently that Americans found out where Australia exists and that they speak the English language. I remember being asked by Americans.
"How did you learn to speak English so well?".
"If you're from Australiia, how come you're not black?"
"Did you come to America on a train?" 
Siince "Baywatch", I no longer have to endure these questions.

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## Евгения Белякова

::  I didn't know that. I have a friend from Moldova, a small country near  my country Ukraine. She says she is Russian because nobody knows what Moldova is. A friend of mine doesn't know what Белоруссия is.

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## DDT

I had lunch yesterday with three Moldovian brothers. One of wich has only been in the US for four weeks and speaks no English . The other two brothers have been here for 8 and 11 months and speak ok English. But unforntunatly one brother who has attended 6  years of  University in Moscow and received his degree there, can only get a job as a taxi driver here in the USA. I know of nurses from Russia who, in America can only work in the lab taking blood. (with my sister)

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## Propp

It reminds me a dialogue: 
American: Where are you from?
Stranger: I'm from Argentina.
American: Oh! Argentina, kangaroos!

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## DDT

Exactly Propp. 
In answer to your question Pravit. Perhaps things are changing, I don't know. But, when I was in school there was a distinct difference between  countries like India and Ceylon and countries like China, Japan and Korea. In every day speech we never referred to some one from India as Asian just as we never referred to ourselves as Asian even though Australia is sometimes defined as part of S.E. Asia.

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## Pravit

The humorous thing is that while browsing through an Asian-American forum, I noticed that the people there of East Asian descent seem to classify Indians as "Asian-Americans" as well. And they all seem to have the same misconceptions of Russia as your average American joe.  
About teaching geography in American schools, I remember that they made them remember where each country was, but they didn't teach anything about the cultures and peoples of these countries. I also remember from "World History" class that most of it was focused around Western European history.    ::  
BTW, I thought Brits used the term "Oriental" to talk about East Asians, although the term is a bit derogatory in the US now. Not so much derogatory as out-of-date - it would be like calling a black man a "Negro."

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## Евгения Белякова

When you say Indians do you mean those from India? I am having trouble understanding. Why would they be American? You mean the ones living in America? I'm a bit lost.   ::  
@Propp: that's funny   ::

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## Pravit

Yep, those from India or of Indian descent. Since I was talking about Asian-Americans, I was getting tired of tacking on "-American" to the end of everything. Indian-Americans to be specific.

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## waxwing

> BTW, I thought Brits used the term "Oriental" to talk about East Asians, although the term is a bit derogatory in the US now. Not so much derogatory as out-of-date - it would be like calling a black man a "Negro."

 No difference it seems, out of date for us too.

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## Angel_of_Death-NZ

I think the main problem with children not learning their stuff is because we have MTV...also most of the World Geography teachers at my school are football coaches and have to teach that class or else they couldnt coach football.  Football coaches know nothing, but their classes are extremely easy.

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## Antono

Евгения, the Indians in the USA are called native Americans. The governmentt has an own office dealing with them, it's called "Bureau for Indian Affairs", if I remember correctly.

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## DDT

> Евгения, the Indians in the USA are called native Americans. The governmentt has an own office dealing with them, it's called "Bureau for Indian Affairs", if I remember correctly.

 That's funny. If they are not "Indians", why is the agency called Bureau of *Indian* Affairs? 
Well I'll tell ya. Because that is their name and has been so since Christopher Columbus mistakenly thought he was in the Indies when he landed in the new world. Recently, certain groups of do gooders have tried to get people to stop using the word "Indians" and use "Native Americans" instead.  Well the problem for them is that most Indians don't want another "name" because they like the one they have been using. I have lived and worked with many Indians over the years  and have never heard them call each other Native Americans yet. And whats more, if I were to meet an Indian and refer to him or her as a Native American, I am sure they would only thnk that I was trying to "suck up" to them in some fashion. And God forbid if I had to work with them every day after that,  the jokes about me would never end. I don't know any Politicaly Correct Indians. 
The term Native American applies to any person born in America. For you are native to where you are born. This, the early Americans knew. In their time those who had not come from England but had been born on American soil were called native Americans.  So, if you want to differentiate, you can use "American Indian" and the meaning will be clear.

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## Евгения Белякова

Antono, I know that Indians in the USA are called Native Americans.  ::   Many people I know call them Indians though, even though that's not the right name. DDT, I agree. American Indians is a good way to call them.

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## Линдзи

And on the other hand, I know a number of Native Americans who resent having the name "Indian" applied to them. 
Anecdotal evidence is not the soundest base for generalizing.

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## DDT

> And on the other hand, I know a number of Native Americans who resent having the name "Indian" applied to them.

 Oh I'm sure you do. There are a few around. But they are not *real* Indians. Just like the cowboys you know are not *real* cowboys.  ::

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## Линдзи

> Originally Posted by Линдзи  And on the other hand, I know a number of Native Americans who resent having the name "Indian" applied to them.   Oh I'm sure you do. There are a few around. But they are not *real* Indians. Just like the cowboys you know are not *real* cowboys.

 Uh, righto.   
If I cared what your definition of "real Indian" was, your opinion might make some difference to me (or to my Native American coworkers and neighbors), but luckily I don't care a whit.  But you can go ahead and post a big long poorly thought-out far right rant on the topic if it makes you feel like a man.

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## DDT

In all honesty we all know that the Indians you are talking about exist but in my experience they are just the "squeaky minority" and do not speak for the rest. (My experience by the way includes   living with, working with everyday, basically living on a Shoshone/Paiute reservation, and working cattle with them on Indian land  ( and let me tell you that "holding rodear" (look it up) with them is an experience), and being the only white guy with a bunch of Indians for miles around.  And not to mention using reservation hospitals, stores and post office and such. Oh lets not forget going to town with them (usually 60 miles or more) and drinking with them (not something for the weak hearted) so don't try this at home kids!. I have lived like this from British Columbia to Arizona. 
So, my Indians can whip your Indians any day, so there!
PS So if this  is "far Right" . Then by your reckoning I can only conclude that most Indians are the same. But why must you always make things political?

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## Линдзи

There, don't you feel like more of a man?  You got to condescend to me, use some "cowboy" terminology, ramble on about "masculine" activities such as drinking and living out in the Wild Wild West.  I'm glad to have made your day a little brighter and more testosterone-filled! 
Incidentally, I know what "rodear" means, o wise one.  See, I *a)* used to train horses and *b)* speak Spanish.  Any other, um, "obscure dialect words" you want to trot out on your cowpony? 
And all this because I wanted to illustrate the inherent unsoundness of anecdotal evidence in debate.  Whooo.

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## DDT

> Incidentally, I know what "rodear" means,

 Well, I am impressed. It is everyday language amongst Buckaroos, not obscure.
And since you have kindly offered your services, I do have another word to trot out. How about "cavvy" ?   I am pretty sure this is the spelling we use. Is this a word that is clearly familiar to Spanish speakers?  Or has it become obscure? 
PS And yes, I do feel more manly now and I owe it all to you.

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## brett

In response to the original question of British reference to Indians.The only source I have is television programs.There is a British show called 'The Kumars' which is done by Indians.I'm sure they refer to their British status as being Asians (of some sub-group reference).
And about the American Indian vs Native American issue.I was of the impression that the word 'indian' was simply another word for native, indigenous or aboriginal.I'm not really sure how specific to the country India it was meant to be.Many places start with the letter combination 'ind'.India, Indonesia, Indo-China, West Indes, South American Indian.I suspect that it is just another word for native 'in general'.  ::  .I think it's the early century film industry that dirtied the word 'indian'.Who really knows whether it's REALLY appropriate.Nobody has given us 'reasons' to to say Native instead of Indian.We're just 'demanded' to say yay or nay.So neither name-caller can really be blamed.
I'll just concur DDT's experiences of Australia.People from India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka are NOT refered to as Asians here.There's a huge distiction.I think that people form these countries just get umbrella'd as Indian, or they're called black.Rarely, if ever, Asian.
And, there was a post (sorry, I forgot to check your name) that mentioned Australia as a country that all Americans knew about.Only since the 2000 Olympics did Americans seem to know where Australia was.Moreso now since our country joined the G.W Bush-licking Co.To hammer home the point; Before either of these events, I saw an episode of Jay Leno where everyday New Yorkers were asked easy questions.One question was "Where is Australia located?", Leno asked, handing the map to a passer-by.And where did the guy point to? CANADA!  ::  Oh my!
He even gave him the clue "Australia is a COUNTRY.Do you still want to stick to your original answer".Why, yes he did! I don't expect Americans to know where Australia is, but I do expect them to know that 'Canada' is where Australia ISN'T.

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## DDT

I am not aware if the word "Indian" ever meant "native" .  The way I heard the story was that Christopher Columbus set out to  find a shorter trading route to India and the Indies and since he knew the world was round he went in the opposite direction than was usual to get there. When he reached the first dry land (central America)  he assumed that he was in some uncharted region but close to India and  he began to call the local inhabitants "Indians". Apparrantly the name has "stuck" for over 500 years.

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## Pravit

> He even gave him the clue "Australia is a COUNTRY.Do you still want to stick to your original answer".

 Eh? Canada is a country too. But that's pretty bad, anyway. 
About "Ind" meaning native, no, it doesn't. It refers to things that are related to India. I believe it's from the word "hind" - "hindi" - "hindu" etc. You notice this word "hind" in Arabic and I believe Farsi as well, to refer to India. The mixup with American Indians is usually explained with the Christopher Columbus story; however, I'm sure there's some different explanation that is not commonly known.

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## DDT

Oh!, I nearly forgot. That is also why the West Indies are named so.  It took them some time to figure out that they were nowhere nere that East Indies but had stumbled across an entirely new continent.

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## Евгения Белякова

Where are the American Indians origianlly from? Some place in Asia, right?

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## scotcher

> Where are the American Indians origianlly from? Some place in Asia, right?

 Only in the sense that all of us are originaly "from" somewhere in Africa.

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## DenisM

> Originally Posted by Евгения Белякова  Where are the American Indians origianlly from? Some place in Asia, right?   Only in the sense that all of us are originaly "from" somewhere in Africa.

 Для тех, кто интересуется: Patterns of Hominid Dispersal

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## brett

[quote="Pravit"]
[quote\]Eh? Canada is a country too. But that's pretty bad, anyway.[quote\]
The guy may have initially thought Australia was a TOWN in Canada.But when the clue came that Australia was a COUNTRY, that excuse disappeared. 
Then I guess the word Indian was born in the same light as the the word Gypsy, with people mistaking the Rom ethnic group for Egyptian pilgrims.Hence, (E)gyp(t)sy.In this case, I prefer the reference Native American, I guess.But Lynda, even if your friends don't like the word Indian, do not think it unfair to presume the person using it to be 'morally' at fault.Do you agree that it's not just the speaker that has to be sensitive, but the reciever aswell? ::  Not everyone says the same word with the same lack of heart.

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## Sir Krist

they can do there own things like kill someone then run to a resurvation and get away with it cause we dont have jurisdiction over there but, that dont happen often.  
I live next to a reservation, one chief had his left foot cut off for not converting to catholism and some people that didnt convert got pushed off clifs by thier own people! 
PS this forum dont grow much doesent it?

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## nightfaerie

> I think the main problem with children not learning their stuff is because we have MTV...also most of the World Geography teachers at my school are football coaches and have to teach that class or else they couldnt coach football. Football coaches know nothing, but their classes are extremely easy.

 same here. exactly.  
= = = = = = = = = = = = =  
Well I feel as a half "Native American" I should put in my two cents... And really, the ones I know who resent being called Indians are the same obnoxiously politically-correct types that are found in other cultures as well - the ones that would rather call an old man a "youth-challenged male individual". Honestly, it's just a word. I personally don't think either one of those terms are derogatory anyways -  no one really means it in a bad way that I know of, it's simply a way of referring to the thing your talking about so that the other person understands.  
And if you want to be TECHNICAL, I'd be more obliged to be offended by the term Native American, since it was Columbus who came here and killed us and then afterwards named it America, and so really before we came we lived in whatever _we_ called the country, not "America".  
But seriously, most people really don't care that much. As long as you don't call me a buffalo-hugging wigwam monger or something 
haha actually I'd probably laugh if you said that...but you get the picture

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## DDT

> haha actually I'd probably laugh if you said that...but you get the picture

   ::   ::

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## Sir Krist

as far as kids go, I think its both parents/kids. 
for instance a "kid" kills 10 ppl with a gun. ppl automatically say its the games but, who is buying the games.  
But the KID """STILL HAS CHOICE""" and there fore it would be the kids fault to pull or not pull the triger.

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## Propp

> Honestly, it's just a word. I personally don't think either one of those terms are derogatory anyways -  no one really means it in a bad way that I know of, it's simply a way of referring to the thing your talking about so that the other person understands.

 Tell this to *Afro-americans* who were initially suposed to be called 'negros' , which means simply "black" btw.

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## Pravit

"Afro-American" and "Negro" are not derogatory, and educated people would not find these terms derogatory. They are simply outdated.

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## Propp

> "Afro-American" and "Negro" are not derogatory, and educated people would not find these terms derogatory. They are simply outdated.

 Yes, if you use them in Harlem you'll quickly get the idea of their "outdateness".   ::

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## Pravit

Who lives in the US, you or me?  ::  Uneducated people might find them offensive, just as uneducated Asians might find the term "Oriental" offensive. But I said educated people would not find them derogatory, only outdated.

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## Joel

People butcher the language.  Every word seems to change its meaning every so often. Bitch and gay are 2 perfect examples.

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## Angel_of_Death-NZ

thats whats so funny about old books.

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## brett

> thats whats so funny about old books.

 I bought a second-hand German grammar book from 1969. It didn't even mention the 'du' (informal) form of 'you'  :: . Only 'sie' (formal). It's 'so anal' by today's standards. Though it probably was retentive even back then too. I only bought it for 2$, though.

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## Pravit

Man, I have a German grammar book from 1914. They print the German in "Fraktur."

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## Angel_of_Death-NZ

Im talking about how old books use words such as "gay", "bastard", and "bitch" in ways we dont use today.  It makes it funny when a 1920s book reads "I was so gay when that old bitch made it home."

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## DDT

*Gay* is my sister's name therefore I only use this word as its original meaning intended out of respect for her.

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## Propp

The same is with "голубой" and  "кончить" in Russian, for example. 15 years ago it would be normal for a university professor to say "на этом я хотел бы кончить". 10 years ago there were many giggles in the auditorium. Today I don't think anyone ever say "кончить" instead of "закончить" in this case. And when even senior people have to use the word "голубой" in the most neutral meaning, they always stumble over it and look embarassed.  ::

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## TATY

Because there are many many many more Pakistanis, Indians, Bangledeshi's etc. in the UK than East Asians. We use the term Asian for West Asians, or Pakis.
We call East Asians, Orientals, Chinks, or Slant-eyes  :P

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## Pravit

> We call East Asians, Orientals, Chinks, or Slant-eyes

 Fuck you.

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## brett

> We call East Asians, Orientals, Chinks, or Slant-eyes
> 			
> 		  Fuck you.

 You spelt it wrong. It's f@#$%&*k you! And you call yourself a linguist.  ::

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## Pravit

I wonder if the reaction from the forum would have been the same had he said "We call Africans n*ggers." 
BTW, TATY, I don't know what passes for funny in the UK these days(I thought British humor was of the "witty", or good type), but randomly stopping by a semi-dead post to spout some racial slurs and then slapping on an ambiguously gay smiley doesn't count as "funny" in my book. I knew you were an idiot, but I figured you knew such words are highly offensive.

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## Joel

He probally would have got a negative reaction if he said anything bad about any race.

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## Pravit

He said something bad about Asians, yet the only negative reaction was from me(and yes, I am an East Asian, if you haven't figured it out by now, TATY).

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## Joel

I honestly didnt even pay attention to his post untill you said something.  Although im not East Asain and it dosent offend me personally, it does bother me to see racism and stereotyping.  TATY I hope you honestly dont feel that way.

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## майк

> Because there are many many many more Pakistanis, Indians, Bangledeshi's etc. in the UK than East Asians. We use the term Asian for West Asians, or Pakis.
> We call East Asians, Orientals, Chinks, or Slant-eyes  :P

 I don’t know who TATY intended to be included in the ‘We’ above, but it does not include me. The words ‘Pakis’, ‘Orientals’, ‘Chinks’ and ‘Slant-eyes’ are offensive. Please don’t use them. 
Statistics on ethnicity in the UK: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=764   

> He said something bad about Asians, yet the only negative reaction was from me

 I’m sorry Pravit that I didn’t respond earlier, but I have been away from this Forum and I have only just seen the post.

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## Pravit

At least good old Maik has his head screwed on straight. For a moment there, I had almost lost hope in the British  ::

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## DDT

Wait a minute, since when and why would "Orientals" be included as  offensive? I mean, if you are from the Orient you pretty much have no choice other than to be Oriental.

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## майк

> Wait a minute, since when and why would "Orientals" be included as  offensive? I mean, if you are from the Orient you pretty much have no choice other than to be Oriental.

 I understand your point DDT. I did think about that myself for a bit, but 'orientals' sounds offensive to me. 
Have a look here for a view: dictionary.reference.com >>> n. often *Oriental* _Often Offensive_. An Asian. 
My own view is that if there could be any doubt, don't use it.

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## Pravit

I don't consider the word "Oriental" to be offensive, actually, just out-of-date, as I've said a couple times in this thread.

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## brett

My friends and I mock each other with words that in other mouths, we simply would not trust. Or, we use the terms in affectionate expression. But... we've been provided with evidence of each other's neutrality of attitude. So, the exchange is known to be affectionate, and most often  a play on racism itself. But, it needs to be realized that with strangers, it's different. Many people have only experienced such words coming out of the mouths of people who just don't give a cr@p about their racial experience. And strangers haven't experience any reason to trust our usage. So, offence is a plausible response to expect. 
In written word, much more care needs to be taken. Because, the 'way' one says the same word changes it completely, and who you're with when you say it. *TATY*'s post was at least carelessly expressed. But, I thought there was enough ambiguity as to it's seriousness that I left it alone. Admittedly *TATY*, from a stranger's pint of view, it didn't 'sound' like you cared if it came across that way. I'm not saying you don't care. But, the point is, it's hard to tell. Facial and tonal expressions don't come across on the page. So, it 'reads' like you don't care, even if you actually do.

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## Pravit

I can understand people using such terms in the context of close friends joking about with each other, but even in that sense I don't like it. But it is certainly not acceptable coming from someone you don't know. Even if taken in the context of an attempt at humour, it was a really crappy one. And you are likely to piss off more people than you amuse. For this reason I suggest you not to use the term "n*gger" with black people, even if you are joking around. As part of the overwhelming White majority you do not know the offense that these words cause and you should not use them.

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## DDT

The whole thing is just a tad rediculous to me. I grew up in a culture where it was well known that  no one was considered any better than any one else. We all had a "name" of some sort, and taking offence to it was unthinkable and we all got along better than two frogs in a pond. 
But I guess I'll just have to scratch out another word from my English vocabulary..........at this rate English will soon become quite an  easy language to learn!!LOL

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## brett

In Australia things aren't (at least, weren't) as emotionally charged as other places. Aussies couldn't give a flying f@#k about nothin'. There are always extremes of course. The police kill Aboriginal people off like flies in some areas.
I'm not saying it's the same, but I was actually a minority at my high school, believe it or not (despite being white). The Lebanese would ask "Are you a skip?" (Aussie) as their foreplay to deciding whether or not to try beat me up. Rather than deem them racist, I deemed them egoistic in general. Though, that's easier to do for some, I admit. What elicites response from me is unchecked arrogance. Attitudes that have become acceptable, when really they're destructive. I generally save my energy for the covert stuff that can actually have a chance at tricking people into accepting secretly destructive behaviour. So, Pravit (and others) my lack of response to the post wasn't ambivalence, but confidence in it's inability to trick someone into thinking "oh, he's got a point there". I know some don't feel in a postion to be diplomatic. But I do, so I do resist the urge to get upset when I can. So *TATY*, you don't have to admit you were serious, but can you perhaps realize where they are coming from? You've admitted somewhere that you were gay on this forum. Surely there's times when certain words get to you more than it would get to a straight person. 
If I don't think my response will give something new to the table, I stay quiet. That's why I didn't say "that sucked". It wouldn't be new info., so it wouldn't disarm a bad attitude.
I do think DDT has a point. Such words gain strength based on the heat of the responses it recieves. Which isn't to presume one should just let it slide. It's just something to be aware of.
On the football field, if I called a black guy "so and so", I'd have been suspended for the whole season. But, black guys knowinly demeaned us white players because we weren't alowed to respond in kind. If we told the referee, we'd be laughed off. And no-one stops you from calling the big prop forwards 'fat sh@ts'. I do hate arrogance, but no more in relation to race than in relation to a 'nerd' being allowed to be outcast. We're allowed to disrespect people who don't have a civil rights movement behind them. That's what tests my resolve. I don't specify who I stand up for. I only stand up if I think the arrogance has a chance at working.

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## DDT

> The police kill Aboriginal people off like flies in some areas.
> .

 An interesting side note. Did you know that Aboriginal Police Trackers cannot seem to be able to track a wanted person if he is another Aborigine? Somehow they always lose them in the rocks or something. The police have to bring in a white tracker if they want to catch the guy..
Apparrantly, as good as the Aboriginal trackers are they are only reliable when tracking a white criminal.  Funny how that works! ....Just a little Aussie culture to lighten things up!

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## brett

I saw an (alleged) Chinese man in the bush today. Reading this thread reminded me of the irony of slurs toward Asians in Australia. Why irony? Many 'Asians' here are more Aussie than white people are. This guy was, for a start, in the bush. He was wearing floppy hat and shirt, and was cutting up a felled tree to prevent danger of the drying leaves causing a bush fire. As one would. I know heaps of REAL true blue Aussie blokes who'd rather drink a beer than think ahead and prevent a bush-fire. 
I started to conversed with this guy. His Aussie accent was broader than mine was. By a long way. About 45yrs worth of accent. (I'm betting he's never been to China in his life). To think that he'd be the one that people call out of car windows "go back to your own country". He's more Aussie than alot of the rich people that live around my area who wouldn't want to get their hands dirty so would opt to call "The Tree Surgeon" instead.   ::   
White red-necked beer-drinking Aussies who call "go back to your own country" from their cars don't go near the bush. Except the ones that go in there to actually 'start' the bush- fires.  ::  (Woah, low blow. Beneath the racism radar, because it was directed against whites).  :: 
I thought the irony, and the timing of this meeting was cute, so I thought I'd share it.

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## Pravit

Understood. But, you see, I needed at least one non-Asian person to agree with me, otherwise it would make me seem like I was jumping at trifles and that such behaviour is acceptable among non-Asians. However, I think TATY got the point, since he's shut up about it and doesn't wish to grace this thread with another response. And I agree with you that he would probably be irritated by the use of words like "fa*got" or "queer." Anyhow, it was interesting to hear about things down under. Are there a lot of Asians there?

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## brett

I've heard statistics at around 6% of the population being Asian. But if one was to find statistics for Asians a given 'city' (hence excluding outer semi country suburban areas) population, looking around, I'd say Sydney could be anywhere between 10-13%. It's all the large towns rolling up and down the coastlines of Australia that have not so many Asians. So, the 6% overall statistic does no justice to the Asian feel of the capital cities of the States. At least Sydney, anyway. Theres a huge Arabic population, perhaps 3% of the state of NSW (Sydney's state). Same deal, it 'feels' much larger, because they're all located in the inner suburbs. And, Greeks. Melbourne (Australia's second largest city) is the second largest Greek city in the world. Only Athens in Greece itself has more. But keep in mind, that probably says more about Greece not really having major 'cities', per se. Greece's population would be sprawled evenly throughout it's nation, rather than localized into one city. So, it's a bit of a 'glamorous' claim. Nevertheless.

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## DDT

Don't forget about the Italian population who, as far as I'm concerned, without, there would have been no good food in restaraunts or coffee, in the entire country. 
Speaking of which...hey Brett, are those two cafe's on Kellog Street in Kings Cross still popular?

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## brett

> Don't forget about the Italian population who, as far as I'm concerned, without, there would have been no good food in restaraunts or coffee, in the entire country.

 Unfortunately though, these days it's never the Italians who run the Italian restaurants. It's some businessman getting trigger happy with the 2 minute frozen pasta packs.
But, Leichardt is Kicking BIG TIME!!! Wow. They have a whole courtyard with 20 restaurants jam-packed Fri-Sat night. One thing I dislike about Italian restaurants though, is they have a tendency toward good looking 'male' waiters. That sucks! Though, I guess the women need to cop a break some of the time. It's usually men that are well served in regards to the waiting business. 

> Speaking of which...hey Brett, are those two cafe's on Kellog Street in Kings Cross still popular?

 I don't know that place well, I don't frequent you mum's neck of the woods.

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## DDT

Oh yes, I remeber Leichardt, That's where the cops used to tell me to go to pick up my car after it had been stolen for Saturday night joy rides.

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## Линдзи

> Understood. But, you see, I needed at least one non-Asian person to agree with me, otherwise it would make me seem like I was jumping at trifles and that such behaviour is acceptable among non-Asians.

 I agree with you 100%, of course.  I didn't respond because I came across this thread when your stunning    

> Fuck you.

 was the last posted item, and it seemed to pretty much the most succinct and appropriate response.  Didn't have much to add, really.

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## DDT

I would have to agree with that one. I think Pravitt pretty well got the point across there.  But I, being the wonderful and considerate fellow that I am, was  not so sure that Taty was trying to be mean, so I gave him "the benefit of a doubt" on that one.

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## Линдзи

> I would have to agree with that one. I think Pravitt pretty well got the point across there.  But I, being the wonderful and considerate fellow that I am, was  not so sure that Taty was trying to be mean, so I gave him "the benefit of a doubt" on that one.

 Oh, I wasn't giving him the benefit of the doubt at all.  But "Umm...DOUBLE fuck you!" seemed like a rather feeble response, ergo my silence.  I supposed I could have banged out a tirade about the Power of Words, but let's face it, Taty doesn't care, or he wouldn't have posed that shit.

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## DDT

I did not mean to say that you were giving the benefit of a doubt. I meant that I was. I did not want to believe that Taty meant it that way. Perhaps I am naive, though.

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## brett

Obviously, insensitivity does need to be addressed. But there is a difference between insensitivity and fascism. If not in principal, in degree. And we're all insensitive to some degree. 
And on the issue of TATY's non-response since. Maybe it's because we're all paying him out. No matter if you are a bad person or not, you still do have the right to stand up for yourself. And ignoring us may very well be his way of doing so. But as Pravit has already said, he's probably already got the message. No use us flogging a dead horse. Though, sometimes flogging dead horses is irresistable when we've nothing better to do. (Which explains the amount of posts I'm contributed to this thread. Just one would probably have been enough from me, really).  ::

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## TATY

Hello. I haven't replied becuase I don't view this part of the forum much, and haven't looked at this thread since I last posted. Anywho, I wasn't being serious. Lighten up people.

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## RobbHammack

> (Which explains the amount of posts *I'm contributed* to this thread. Just one would probably have been enough from me, really).

 "I'm contributed" = mixed tenses, anyone? it should be "I've contributed" 
--Feel free to ignore me, I make worse mistakes when speed-typing all the time   ::   
--Robb Hammack 
P.S. for those who don't regognize me, there's a good reason - I'm new here!
Just learning the Russian alphabet so far, so most of the stuff in the russian forums is beyond me (but not for long!) I do, however have a good to exellent grasp of English (American Variety) and will be glad to help with english whenever I can.

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## Евгения Белякова

What is your native language RobbHammack?

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## Pravit

Brett makes a lot of typing mistakes, but he is a native English speaker, dear RobHammack. 
TATY: I am aware that it was a joke, but many people(including myself) find those terms offensive, so *don't use them.*

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## RobbHammack

I'm an American ;o) 
I'm aware it was just a typo, which as I said (and Pravit *ALREADY* caught me in another thread) I make more than my share!
Sorry if my meaning (humor rather than a serious correction) didn't come thru. 
I've had no formal training in english or language in general, beyond some (mostly forgotten) classes in high school - but I've been a voracious reader for most of my 41 years and have always been interested in etymology of words and phrases. 
I became interested in the Russian language recently due to SPAM, lol
For some reason, my mailbox was flooded with spam about "beautiful russian brides" - then I was asked at work to take a look at some source code (I'm a Software Developer) and found that the comments were in Russian! 
I'm happily married with three kids, so I don't think a "Beautiful Russian Bride" is in my future, but dang some of them are cute!  I became interested in just WHY they were looking for "A Foreign Prince" instead of the guy next door, so I started to do some reading via online translator in public forums for russian women - I'm sure I don't have to tell people here how hard it is to get the true idea of what they are trying to say that way!  Anyway, it convinced me to at least attempt to learn russian before my brain completely fossilizes. 
Robb

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## RobbHammack

> What is your native language RobbHammack?

 Hard as it may be to believe, American English!
I've just started to study the Russian alphabet, but I think your forum name in translit would be Yevgeneya Belyakova ? is that somewhat close?
(I'm doing it from memory here - about an hours study yesterday) 
--Robb

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by Евгения Белякова  What is your native language RobbHammack?   Hard as it may be to believe, American English!
> I've just started to study the Russian alphabet, but I think your forum name in translit would be Yevgeneya Belyakova ? is that somewhat close?
> (I'm doing it from memory here - about an hours study yesterday) 
> --Robb

 Yes, you are almost right: Yevgen*i*ya Belyakova 
Translit style depends on context, and personal preferece.
At uni, I have to use the hideous American Library Congress system, in which case it would be:
Evgeniia Beliakova 
For everyday use, her name would most likely be:
Yeveniya / Yevgenia Belyakova 
Another example:
Борис Ельцын. The first time I saw this is cyrillic, I was like "who's that?" until I reliased, it was Boris Yeltsin:
In the American Library Congress system it is: Boris El'tsyn. 
If you showed that to a non-Russian speaker, it's most likely they wouldn't recognise it.
Yeltsin is a more phonetically based transliteration, used for mass-media and general popular culture. 
Transliteration is a annoying though. Do you know how akward it is to find information in English on Максим Горький???
Gor'kii
Gor'kiy
Gorky
Gor'ky
Gorki
Gor'ki
etc.

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## RobbHammack

> Yes, you are almost right: Yevgen*i*ya Belyakova

 Ahhh...   I suppose it's because of the position in the word (stress
) that и transliterates to an i rather than a long e?  Do you know any good links for determining what is stressed in a word you don't know? I mean, is there any rule that covers general cases? 
--Robb

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## Pravit

There are no strict rules for transliteration; Yevgeneya Belyakova is as good a transliteration as Yevgeniya Belyakova, Jevgenija Beljakova, Evgenia Beliakova, and so on. Given that most English-speakers pronounce "ey" as "ee", it works fine. 
"I" in transliteration almost always represents long "e", and "e" short "e"(this  is a rule in almost every transliteration of any language). This is so people won't be confused between the two types of "e." So if you see the name "Dmitri", don't pronounce it "Dmitrai."

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## TATY

> There are no strict rules for transliteration; Yevgeneya Belyakova is as good a transliteration as Yevgeniya Belyakova, Jevgenija Beljakova, Evgenia Beliakova, and so on. Given that most English-speakers pronounce "ey" as "ee", it works fine. 
> "I" in transliteration almost always represents long "e", and "e" short "e"(this  is a rule in almost every transliteration of any language). This is so people won't be confused between the two types of "e." So if you see the name "Dmitri", don't pronounce it "Dmitrai."

 Yes, but in translits to English, И going to E is very dodgey.
I think Robb got confused between the way he was taught that И "is pronounced like a long e, as in f*ee*t" and it's transliteration as I.
Remember И in Ukrainian and Belorussian is I.
But anyways, because in English pronunciation is so messed up, there will always be problems. 
In other languages, i.e. Spanish, they can get close pronunciations due to there regular spelling. Also, as in Spanish vowels are accented to indicate stress, stress can be conveyed. 
E.g. in Spanish, Ивaн would be written Ivan (Because due to Spanish stress rules, the stress would be on the A anyway).
But Владимир would be Vlad

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## brett

There was a woman in my French class who'd make zero effort to shed her Aussie accent. No, I'm not saying one's native accent should be undetectable. I'm merely saying that the target language's pronunciation should be. She'd say "s'il vous plait" as "seal voo plate", and "merci beaucoup" as "muhr seee booo kooop". I can't stress enough the whininess and flagrant Aussie un-Frenchness of her accent. No matter how many times the teacher told the whole class not to stretch the 'eee' and 'ooo' vowels to the end of the bloody earth, and to not hit the end consonants, this woman would continue to do so. It would be utterly incomprehensible to someone in France. Everytime she spoke, I'd ask her, in my head, "Why are you even here?. Are you going to make a cultural leap or not?". Perhaps I should have asked aloud, because I don't think the teacher pressed the issue enough to her. I think this woman was under the false impression that she was, infact, speaking French. I speak English AND French now... and she was speaking neither.
I tried to be patient with her, but she just didn't seem to be even trying to meet the language half way, so it 'pissed me off no end', just as you with that Russian student. Just a _little_ effort is all I need to see, inorder to not be pissed-off by such cases.

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## TATY

> There was a woman in my French class who'd make zero effort to shed her Aussie accent. No, I'm not saying one's native accent should be undetectable. I'm merely saying that the target language's pronunciation should be. She'd say "s'il vous plait" as "seal voo plate", and "merci beaucoup" as "muhr seee booo kooop". I can't stress enough the whininess and flagrant Aussie un-Frenchness of her accent. No matter how many times the teacher told the whole class not to stretch the 'eee' and 'ooo' vowels to the end of the bloody earth, and to not hit the end consonants, this woman would continue to do so. It would be utterly incomprehensible to someone in France. Everytime she spoke, I'd ask her, in my head, "Why are you even here?. Are you going to make a cultural leap or not?". Perhaps I should have asked aloud, because I don't think the teacher pressed the issue enough to her. I think this woman was under the false impression that she was, infact, speaking French. I speak English AND French now... and she was speaking neither.
> I tried to be patient with her, but she just didn't seem to be even trying to meet the language half way, so it 'pissed me off no end', just as you with that Russian student. Just a _little_ effort is all I need to see, inorder to not be pissed-off by such cases.

 I can't stop imagining Kath and Kim speaking French now.

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## DDT

> I can't stress enough the whininess and flagrant Aussie un-Frenchness

 "muhr seee Bloody booo kooop, mate! "

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## brett

DDT's got a signature now! Is that the slogan on the car license plates in the State of  The Food Is Not Bad Really? If so, where on earth do you fit the bloody license number?

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## DDT

Numbers? We don't need no steenking numbers!

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by brett   I can't stress enough the whininess and flagrant Aussie un-Frenchness   "muhr seee Bloody booo kooop, mate! "

 jaaa beet dans laa roo Raiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirmzy.

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## brett

That last bit looked Arabic. Ramses' street. I guess Ramsy St. was once inhabited by Egyptians, till Kylie and Jason moved in. I'd have probably moved out , too. You guys watch that show more than we do. I asked my next-door neighbour last week, and he said it's still running.   ::  And no, not re-runs. I mean... it's still going!
As an Aussie, I'd just like to say "  ::  "!

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## TATY

> That last bit looked Arabic. Ramses' street. I guess Ramsy St. was once inhabited by Egyptians, till Kylie and Jason moved in. I'd have probably moved out , too. You guys watch that show more than we do. I asked my next-door neighbour last week, and he said it's still running.   And no, not re-runs. I mean... it's still going!
> As an Aussie, I'd just like to say "  "!

 It is very popular here. It is shown on BBC1 (the main BBC channel) at 1:45 and repeated at 5:35 I loves it. 
NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYBOURS SHOULD BE THERE FOR ONE ANUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURTHER, THATS WHEN GOOD NAAAAYBOURS BECOME GOOOOOD FRAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRNDS

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## DDT

Are you taling about that Aussie sit-com "nieghbours" is that show still going, or is it in Reruns now? Is the character played by Warren Blondell still on?

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## TATY

> Are you taling about that Aussie sit-com "nieghbours" is that show still going, or is it in Reruns now? Is the character played by Warren Blondell still on?

 I am actually watching it right now.

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## DDT

Really? I have not seen it in years. Well actually I hardly ever watched it but Warren used to be a friend of mine in real life. The last thing that I remember him telling me is that he was going to join the Bondi Beach Fire Department. He was tired of the TV crowd.

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