# Forum About Russia Politics  Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny)

## Hanna

I read an article about this person and I got curious if you here have an opionion about him?  
It's a blogger who hates Putin and Edinaya Rossia because they are (he says) corrupt.  
He wants to start an Arab spring in Russia, and plans to become politically active in real life.  
Has he got a chance? What do you think about him and his quest? Do you know people who support him? 
What's the name of his blog?

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## Doomer

He's a clown
And he's in jail (so much for being a president)
I personally don't like politicians/people playing politicians who just criticize government with no real opposition program - he's the one

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## Ramil

He deserves a bullet for that alone:  

> He wants to start an Arab spring in Russia

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## Hanna

So when non-Russian media present him as a kind of Russian internet freedom hero, it's a bit exaggerated...? 
He sounded great from the article I read; I mean, against corruption.  
I notice that most people here are quite unhappy with the way that Russia is governed (and with Edinaya Rossiya).... and with corruption. So I am trying to form an opinion about what would be a good alternative... This sounded like a possibility.  
If Navalnij is no good, then I guess it is back to the KPRF. Basil77 explained that they are, at least, a serious and well-organised alternative, even if the historical legacy and the name is offputting to lots of people.  
And anyway, who am I to worry about this? Europe is getting less democratic and more messed up every year. Perhaps I should worry about this instead of Russia, lol!

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## BappaBa

> I personally don't like politicians/people playing politicians who just criticize government with no real opposition program - he's the one

 +500

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## it-ogo

> So when non-Russian media present him as a kind of Russian internet freedom hero, it's a bit exaggerated...?  
> He sounded great from the article I read; I mean, against corruption.  
> I notice that most people here are quite unhappy with the way that Russia is governed (and with Edinaya Rossiya).... and with corruption. So I am trying to form an opinion about what would be a good alternative... This sounded like a possibility.  
> If Navalnij is no good, then I guess it is back to the KPRF. Basil77 explained that they are, at least, a serious and well-organised alternative, even if the historical legacy and the name is offputting to lots of people.

 There is no good alternative. That is the characteristic difference between democracy and authoritarianism: the former always has an acceptable alternative, the latter has no alternative even when the system is 100% corrupt - any change will make even worse. That is the way system works. It is called zugzwang in chess.

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## nulle

> He wants to start an Arab spring in Russia

 Putin will not step down peacefully while he is alive.  

> There is no good alternative.

 In short-term maybe.
But in long-term democracy is the only way.
But first - Russians should learn that to take a dump you need to go to a toilet - that elections should be fair.

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## Doomer

> Russians should learn that to take a dump you need to go to a toilet - that elections should be fair.

 I'm trying to understand how these two things might be connected
Could you enlighten me?

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## Crocodile

> I personally don't like politicians/people playing politicians who just criticize government with no real opposition program - he's the one

 This is called the catch 22: if you want to fight the injustice the government does, you have to criticize the government, and then propose an alternative, but the alternative had been largely discredited 10 years ago, so today there seems to be no alternative, so stop criticizing the government and accept the injustice it does.  ::  
Navalniy had done some practical work of fighting the real cases of corruption, but of course that could not change the big picture. So, Navalniy deserves respect for his anti-corruption efforts, but once he got into the game of try and change the big picture, he got caught up in the politics which is way above his abilities. And he seems to have made everybody angry. I think that is because Navalniy is a fair person, but there's no fair in politics and he lost quickly to the more seasoned politicians. Today his reputation is ruined and it would be very difficult to restore it back to what it was, since each and every step he would take would now be perceived with a bias.

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## Doomer

> Navalniy had done some practical work of fighting the real cases of corruption, but of course that could no change the big picture. So, Navalniy deserves respect for his anti-corruption efforst

 Could you shed some light on his "practical work of fighting the real cases of corruption", please?

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## Crocodile

> Could you shed some light on his "practical work of fighting the real cases of corruption", please?

 Sure, not a problem: 
"_В ноябре 2009 года Навальный опубликовал в своём блоге запись о закупках в 2007 году банком ВТБ в Китае буровых установок через посредническую компанию за цену, в полтора раза превышающую рыночную[48][49].  Сумма хищений, по его оценкам, составила 156 миллионов долларов.  Навальный также опубликовал копии документов, связанных с этой сделкой[50]. УБЭП ГУВД Москвы, проводившее расследование по факту данной сделки, сообщило, что нарушений не обнаружено[51]. По утверждению члена Консультационного совета акционеров ВТБ Олега Анисимова, сославшегося на слова Андрея Костина, отчасти вследствие этих сделок руководитель «ВТБ-Лизинга» был уволен[52][53][54]. 
16 ноября 2010 года Алексей Навальный опубликовал документы, по его  словам, содержащие сведения о крупных хищениях в ходе реализации проекта  трубопроводной системы «Восточная Сибирь — Тихий океан» (ВСТО), реализуемого естественной монополией «Транснефть»[55][56]. Навальный заявил, что общая сумма хищений по всем документам, которые у него имеются, составляет более 120 млрд руб[57]. По словам Навального, эти документы являются результатом внутренней проверки строительства ВСТО экспертами «Транснефти»[57]. Вслед за заявлением Навального последовал ряд публикаций в СМИ. 
По состоянию на 2 мая 2011 года, проект «РосПил» заявляет об общей сумме  обнаруженных махинаций в 1,6 млрд рублей, сумме остановленных махинаций  (оцениваемая как общая сумма отменённых конкурсов) в 337 млн рублей[источник?]. За полгода существования проекта (на середину июня 2011) рассмотрена 41 госзакупка.  
30 мая 2011 года Навальный запустил интернет-проект «РосЯма»,  направленный, по его словам, на побуждение российских властей к  улучшению состояния дорог. На страницах проекта пользователям  предлагается размещать фотографии повреждённых участков дорог с  указанием места снимка. После этого система автоматически генерирует  текст жалобы, которую предлагается подать в ГИБДД.  Через 37 дней (установленный действующим законодательством срок  рассмотрения жалобы) система также автоматически генерирует письмо в  прокуратуру, которое предлагается отправить в случае отсутствия реакции  на жалобу[74]._"

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## Hanna

> He's a clown
> And he's in jail (so much for being a president)
> I personally don't like politicians/people playing politicians who just criticize government with no real opposition program - he's the one

 Why do all of you imply that his reputation is ruined? What did he do?    

> I går kväll hade över 38.000 anmält på Facebook att de deltar i mötet som hålls på Sacharovprospektet nära Trädgårdsringen.

    (38,000 people joined a Facegroup group about attending one of Navalnyi's meetings on the "Sacharov prospekt".). This sounds like an impressive figure to the Swedish journalist who wrote it, I guess.... But from a Russian perspective I guess it's not really that much. Maybe the journalist misunderstood how normal people percieve Navalniy. 
Oh well.

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## Doomer

> Sure, not a problem: 
> "[I]В ноябре 2009 года Навальный опубликовал в своём блоге запись о закупках в 2007 году банком ВТБ в Китае буровых установок через посредническую компанию за цену, в полтора раза превышающую рыночную[48][49].  Сумма хищений, по его оценкам, составила 156 миллионов долларов.  Навальный также опубликовал копии документов, связанных с этой сделкой[50]. УБЭП ГУВД Москвы, проводившее расследование по факту данной сделки, сообщило, что нарушений не обнаружено[51]. По утверждению члена Консультационного совета акционеров ВТБ Олега Анисимова, сославшегося на слова Андрея Костина, отчасти вследствие этих сделок руководитель «ВТБ-Лизинга» был уволен[52][53][54].

 ну давайте разбираться
1. существует некий договор (причем его подлинность неизвестна, но допустим что он реальный)
2. по этому договору компания ОАО «ВТБ-Лизинг» покупает у компании ООО «Велл Дриллинг Корпорейшн» буровые установки, каждая 15 233 000 долларов США
3. не существует никаких доказательств что компания ООО «Велл Дриллинг Корпорейшн» покупала буровые установки у китайской компании "Honghua Group Limited", все это лишь домыслы господина Навального
4. также не ясно позволяют ли административные и политические возможности компании ОАО «ВТБ-Лизинг» покупать установки напрямую у компании "Honghua Group Limited"
5. также нет никаких доказательств за какую сумму ООО «Велл Дриллинг Корпорейшн» покупало буровые установки, а только домыслы господина Навланого
6. опять же не уточняется почему компания ООО «Велл Дриллинг Корпорейшн» не должна зарабатывать на перепродаже буровых установок
7. учитывая что ООО «Велл Дриллинг Корпорейшн» и "Honghua Group Limited" это зарубежные компании и проверить их работу у российских властей нет никакой возможности, о чем г. Навальный прекрасно осведомлен, он может смело писать любую фигню и потом ссылаться на бездействие властей 
у меня нет времени искать документы по остальным вещам, но например проект РосЯма это чистой воды популизм

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## Doomer

> Why do all of you imply that his reputation is ruined? What did he do?

 it depends on what kind of reputation you are talking about
For me he was always making chaos and still making it

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## Hanna

> it depends on what kind of reputation you are talking about
> For me he was always making chaos and still making it

 Do you mean because he has a blog that critisizes the government? Do you think it should be banned?     

> He deserves a bullet for that alone:

 Huh?? You  don't like Edinaya Rossia though, or did I misunderstand you? What's the  problem with having a blog that critisizes them?  
My opinion is that politicians must be under public scrutiny. I don't  know whether democracy is the right thing for Russia or not, but surely  corruption is a bad thing from any perspective. I think it's good that  he exposes corruption!

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## Crocodile

> 1. ну давайте разбираться [...] 
> 2. у меня нет времени искать документы по остальным вещам

 Там же ссылочка стоит. Вот она ещё раз - Навальный - ВТБ. Информирую. и все документы там. Всё отсканировано и выложено.  
А дальше самое главное - "_В результате признаков состава преступления или правонарушения в  действиях менеджеров банка ВТБ и «ВТБ Лизинг» не обнаружено, отчитались в  УБЭП_" (ВТБ отбивается от миноритариев :: Статьи :: )
Обрати внимание, что "_не обнаружено_", а не то, что подлинность документов, представленных Навальным, оспаривается  УБЭП. 
Тут главное нам с тобой договориться, что я считаю инициацию официального расследования - реальным практическим шагом по борьбе с коррупцией. А то, что она (т.е. коррупция) реально существует, а не является плодом фантазии ЦРУ, надеюсь споров не вызовет.  ::    

> проект РосЯма это чистой воды популизм

 Вряд ли. Ведь документы реально генерируются, а дороги реально разбиты. А вот обвинение Навального в том, что он - ещё один американский проект - это как раз популизм.  ::

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## Marcus

> You don't like Edinaya Rossia though, or did I misunderstand you? What's the problem with having a blog that critisizes them?

 Ramil said about "arab spring".
Arab spring eith chaos, violent radicals and bombardments is a disaster whether you like Edinaya Rossiya or not.
Tomorrow there will be a meeting against any attempts to make some revoluthions here. I'm thinking of going to this meeting, but I'm too lazy to go there. The problem here is that active people are not the majority.

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## Marcus

Navalny uses the issue of corruption for other purposes and those purposes are just frightening, I can't agree with them. So does all the prowestern opposition.

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## Crocodile

> Navalny uses the issue of corruption for other purposes and those purposes are just frightening, I can't agree with them. So does all the prowestern opposition.

 That's why I said Navalniy is no politician. It is beyond his abilities. A real politician would be able to convince his purposes are enlightening and the other politicians' purposes are frightening, but Navalniy can't do it.

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## Doomer

> Там же ссылочка стоит. Вот она ещё раз - Навальный - ВТБ. Информирую. и все документы там. Всё отсканировано и выложено.

 я то их почитал, а вы?
все мои комментарии были на сновании предоставленных "документов"

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## Doomer

> Вряд ли. Ведь документы реально генерируются, а дороги реально разбиты.

 правильно, только толку от генерации документов - ноль целых ноль десятых
потому что ремонт дорог это бюджетная статья, которая принимается раз в год и писать жалобы каждый день это просто спам, который ничего не изменит  

> А вот обвинение Навального в том, что он - ещё один американский проект - это как раз популизм.

 а кто-то его в этом обвиняет?
я не видел

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## Ramil

> Do you mean because he has a blog that critisizes the government? Do you think it should be banned?  Huh?? You  don't like Edinaya Rossia though, or did I misunderstand you? What's the  problem with having a blog that critisizes them?

 No problems with that. But he went further. In order to gain some cheap popularity he saddled himself with ultra-nationalists and attended the so called 'Russian march', but that's up to him. Now he calls people to the streets to repeat what happenned in Egypt or Lybia - practically, he incites an open rebellion agains the government. A man who pushes his own country into the civil war deserves only a piece of rope and a handy tree branch.

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## Ramil

> правильно, только толку от генерации документов - ноль целых ноль десятых
> потому что ремонт дорог это бюджетная статья, которая принимается раз в год и писать жалобы каждый день это просто спам, который ничего не изменит 
> а кто-то его в этом обвиняет?
> я не видел

 Не знаю, но опубликованная его якобы взломанная якобы переписка по меньшей мере даёт повод задуматься.

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## nulle

> A man who pushes his own country into the civil war deserves only a piece of rope and a handy tree branch.

 Do you see any other way to force Putin & co. to resign?
He certainly does not want that, because he knows that the new leaders will try to prosecute him.
Just like they are now prosecuting Mubarak...

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## Doomer

> Do you mean because he has a blog that critisizes the government? Do you think it should be banned?

 No, banning anybody's blog is not a good way of taking care of things. Everybody should be able to say what they want (just make sure not to break a law when you speak things) and he is breaking some laws. For example: extremism, violation of coat of arms. And I don't see why he shouldn't be punished for that, after all he's calling for "justice" then let's justice do the job
Making caricature of Coat of arms is completely anti-patriotic and has nothing to do with current government and I don't see how it would help Russian people to build a strong country   

> My opinion is that politicians must be under public scrutiny. I don't  know whether democracy is the right thing for Russia or not, but surely  corruption is a bad thing from any perspective. I think it's good that  he exposes corruption!

 Corruption exposure is good but he's not cooperating with government but goes against it, thus I don't think his target is corruption
And yes, I know that government is corrupted but not every one of them, after all they just people like you and me
His actions are too provocative and it is an open question what they bring more: good or bad, for people in Russia

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## Ramil

> Do you see any other way to force Putin & co. to resign?

 Resign and be replaced by whom? What will follow this resignation?   

> He certainly does not want that, because he knows that the new leaders will try to prosecute him. Just like they are now prosecuting Mubarak...

 Those leaders of opposition... they are not qualified to run this country. In fact, between them and Putin I would chose Putin even though I despise him. Who's able enough to replace him? Not Navalny, certainly. When you remove a leader you must have a replacement candidate or you'll end up with chaos and turmoil. I don't see such a leader yet.

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## Basil77

> *More Indications of the Depth of U.S. Involvement in the Russian Unrest* 
> Earlier this week, I reported on  Aleksei Navalny, and an NYT profile that dubbed him "The Man Behind the Russian Protests."
> Given certain facts in the profile, I speculated Navalny might have CIA  connections. Now comes further information that shows that Navalny is a  recipient of US government funding. At LRC, Daniel McAdams reports: Thanks to the intrepid and indefatigable Tony Cartalucci for digging deeper (as true journalists once did) into the bogus "Russia Blogger is Putin's worst nightmare"  press orgy to discover that this brave Russian do-gooder coining the  memorable "party of crooks and thieves" slogan to describe Prime  Minister Putin's United Russia party is a long-time recipient of US government semi-covert largesse via  its corrupt color revolution machine the National Endowment for  Democracy (sic). "Democracy activist" Alexey Navalny, according to his "Yale World Fellow" profile,  "is also co-founder of the Democratic Alternative movement and was  vice-chairman of the Moscow branch of the political party YABLOKO,"  which received funding from the National Endowment for Democracy according to cables made public via the whistleblower website, Wikileaks. 
> Navalny's  main collaborator, Ilya Yashin, is also a recipient of NED's Russia  regime change funding as head of the Moscow branch of the People's  Freedom Party and leading member of the "Strategy 31" campaign.  Cartalucci points out that NED's own webpage advertises "Strategy 31" as a major recipient of US government funding.Bottom  line, the many legged Empire is operating everywhere, except for  possibly, central L.A. and certain parts of Auburn, Alabama.

 EconomicPolicyJournal.com: More Indications of the Depth of U.S. Involvement in the Russian Unrest 
And sorry, but I can't hold myself to post this:

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## Hanna

Unbelievable!!! Well, after reading Basil77's post, I see what you all  mean. 
I really want to give the US the benefit of the doubt and not be too "anti-American" but they are practically making it impossible.  
I still think that somebody needs to stand up against corruption in Russia, but it should be somebody who really cares about the country, not some CIA implant! 
The story I read was in a Swedish paper, but I saw the exact same story on the BBC website just now. Clerarly the story abut this "hero" is doing its round around the world.  
Based on all this, I'd be quite tempted to throw him in prison myself, if I was Russian (I mean honestly, accepting money from the CIA!!) But that's probably exactly what the CIA psychological warfare experts want, because then he becomes a martyr...  
Too bad Russia doesn't exile people to Siberia anymore. Otherwise he could be sent on a nice all-expenses-paid holiday & stay in a nice hotel (no need to mistreat people), and have his uprising in Omsk, or something.....

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## Eric C.

It appears, the thing is, anyone who dares to contradict the wisest commie (then united Russia) party in Russia automatically receives certain amounts of money from the CIA, and there's no way to fix it in any possible future. At the same time, receiving money from the U.S. and especially CIA is considered the heaviest crime one can ever commit on there. So, those of you guys who wish for a truly multi-party system, parliament and democracy can just find some other place to live around the world, coz anyone who begs to try any changes to implement this actually fails before the first try.

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## Doomer

> I still think that somebody needs to stand up against corruption in Russia, but it should be somebody who really cares about the country

 precisely
you got the exact point
If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?

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## jnllll

> precisely
> you got the exact point
> If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?

 I think it is universal opinion in Russia that corruption is equivalent of government .

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## Doomer

> I think it is universal opinion in Russia that corruption is equivalent of government .

 it is not
it is an opinion of majority but not everyone
if everybody in government is corrupted then who's gonna fight corruption?
I personally think that things changing for good in Russia but very slowly

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## Hanna

I read the article that Basil77 linked to and I actually believe the points they are making. 
It is impossible to ignore the evidence - I've seen it in media almost daily and I have known people who have had internship (well paid!) with some of the organisations mentioned, in the 1990s. The scenario reads like a conspiracy theory, but it's actually not.  
I wonder what normal Americans would think about their country meddling in this way overseas, while neglecting their own citizens at home. I am guessing 95% haven't got any idea of what's going on.    

> *Conclusion*   It is quite  clear that the National Endowment for Democracy, Freedom House, the  Foreign Policy Initiative, and even the US State Department whose new foreign affairs advisory board  is full of think-tanks representing overt corporate-financier  interests, are not interested in "democracy," "human rights," or  "freedom" in Russia, but rather removing the Kremlin out of the way, and  reestablishing the parasitic feeding on the Russian people and its  economy they enjoyed after the fall of the Soviet Union.

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## jnllll

> it is not
> it is an opinion of majority but not everyone
> if everybody in government is corrupted then who's gonna fight corruption?
> I personally think that things changing for good in Russia but very slowly

 Не берусь спорить...
Вообще, судить о том, что происходит в политике - это как судить о том, что происходит на дне грязного, непрозрачного пруда только лишь по расходящимся на его поверхности кругам, но и даже на эти круги смотря через мутные, искажающие очки прессы и телевидения.

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## nulle

When Russian ruling elite can't think of anything better - they can always resort to good old anti-americanism.

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## Hanna

> When Russian ruling elite can't think of anything  better - they can always resort to good old anti-americanism.

 Well, the Americans are basically serving it to them on a platter, so can you blame the Russians? The US has meddled there for over a century.  
If the US did not constantly meddle, there would be no reason for any anti-americanism. 
For example, whoever heard of anti-Canadianism or anti-Brazil or even anti-China? 
Those countries are large and important, but do not consider themselves by default justified to meddle in the affairs of countries around the world, or at least they wait until their input is sought.  
Also, the outcome of the American meddling is usually not beneficial for the county in question, despite fluffy talk about freedom, democracy and human rights.  
"By their fruits, ye shall know them... " 
Look at the state of Middle East, Central America - classical American meddling grounds.  
Russia would be a great deal wiser to solve its problems internally than accept any kind of help from the USA.

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## Crocodile

> я то их почитал, а вы?
> все мои комментарии были на сновании предоставленных "документов"

 Ну, не то, чтобы я сильно вчитывался... так, по диагонали. Что касается проверки документов, я полагаюсь на специалистов из УБЭП. Если документы не в порядке, тогда в проведении проверки было бы отказано, именно на основании неполности или сомнительности документов. А если проверку невозможно провести из-за того, что иностранные компании отказываются предоставлять свои документы, тогда именно это и должно говориться в заключении. Правильно? Проверка была проведена, и заключение гласит, что никаких нарушений не обнаружено. Правильно действовал менеджмент, используя услуги киприотов в процессе поставки буровых установок. Ибо, как известно, Кипр - один из мировых центров добычи нефти, а киприоты - лучшие посредники для оптовых закупок. Кроме того, как известно, у России вообще неважные отношения с Китаем, и поэтому услуги посредников являлись жизненной необходимостью.  ::

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## Crocodile

> правильно, только толку от генерации документов - ноль целых ноль десятых

 Я лишь говорил о том, что Навальный делал практические шаги по борьбе с коррупцией. Не о том, что у него это прекрасно получалось. Ты не мог бы мне назвать того, кто делал или делает это очень эффективно?   

> потому что ремонт дорог это бюджетная статья, которая принимается раз в год

 Правильно, а вот ты, например, можешь получить хоть какую-нибудь информацию о том, сколько на это было выделено денег и сколько на что было потрачено? Ничегошеньки мы не знаем об этой статье. Может, что раз в год и принималось, но дороги плохие.    

> и писать жалобы каждый день это просто спам, который ничего не изменит

 Раз уж использовать интернетные мемы, тогда это не спам, а DDoS-атака. Ежу понятно, что если написать жалобу на плохие дороги, то никто не ответит, а если и ответит, то только то, что денег на ремонт нет. А DDoS-атака, как ей и положено, привлекает всеобщее внимание, заставляет [немножко] потеть высоких руководителей и таким образом создаёт какую-то практическую движуху. В отличие от глухого "ну, всё равно коррупция была, есть и будет, поэтому давайте с ней жить и вообще ничего не делать."   

> а кто-то его в этом обвиняет? я не видел

 Ну, приехали.  ::  навальный американский проект - Google Search даёт 4,470,000 результатов. Даже Кургинян успел отметиться на то же дерево. Так, что часть твоих налоговых денег шла и идёт в карман Навального.  ::

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## Crocodile

> Не знаю, но опубликованная его якобы взломанная якобы переписка по меньшей мере даёт повод задуматься.

 И это пишет человек, становление которого происходило в 90-е?  ::

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## Crocodile

> And sorry, but I can't hold myself to post this:

 Do you endorse that?

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## Crocodile

> If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?

 I think he is fighting the government using its weakness, which is widespread corruption. And that is totally legitimate. He is definitely not fighting "Russian values" for the lack of this term. There's no such thing as national values. If you think I'm wrong, please name at least five Russian values and then five Chinese values.  ::  There are other national things, like national character, but no national values.

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## Doomer

> There's no such thing as national values. If you think I'm wrong, please name at least five Russian values and then five Chinese values.  There are other national things, like national character, but no national values.

 If there is no such thing as national values then one would be more than enough, isn't it?
But I'll name two, easy ones
patriotism is first
culture will be second

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## Crocodile

> If there is no such thing as national values then one would be more than enough, isn't it?
> But I'll name two, easy ones
> patriotism is first
> culture will be second

 So, based on what you just said, what are the Russian values? What Russian values does Navalniy fight?

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## Doomer

> So, based on what you just said, what are the Russian values?

 I hope you can read, they written above  

> What Russian values does Navalniy fight?

 both of what I wrote

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## Crocodile

> both of what I wrote

 I honestly fail to see how he does that. Also, those "values" are as much Russian as they are Chinese, Australian and Zulu. I want to see specific examples of how Navalniy fights culture. Is he burning books in public or something?  ::

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## Doomer

> I honestly fail to see how he does that. Also, those "values" are as much Russian as they are Chinese, Australian and Zulu. I want to see specific examples of how Navalniy fights culture. Is he burning books in public or something?

 Perhaps you would have wanted to see something like матрешка or олимпийский мишка but if the values can be used in any country it doesn't make them invaluable but makes more sense in them
Patriotism can be a value of any country but the way it's expressed is different in any country
He never has done anything to support patriotism in Russia but have done some things which considered anti-patriotic (by me at least) violation of Russian Coat of Arms is one of them 
кстати по поводу его яростной борьбы с коррупцией, тыц - Навальный - жулик. Доказано! - YouTube

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## Throbert McGee

> There's no such thing as national values.

 Is that really true? I would point out that Americans tend to value individualism over loyalty to the extended family/clan, for example. So isn't that an "American value"? (Although not in the sense of being exclusively American and not found at all in other nations -- only in the sense that it is characteristic of America [and some other countries], but is far from being globally universal.)

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## Basil77

> Do you endorse that?

 Of course I am.  :: 
It's a shame that it's a fake. 
P.S. I'm joking of course.

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## Hanna

> Is that really true? I would point out that Americans tend to value individualism over loyalty to the extended family/clan, for example. So isn't that an "American value"? (Although not in the sense of being exclusively American and not found at all in other nations -- only in the sense that it is characteristic of America [and some other countries], but is far from being globally universal.)

  Entrepreneurialism and a "money is king" attitude are American values, I think.  
But Russia is really diverse and had a relatively extreme and unusual history over the last 100 years. Maybe because of all the changes they've been through, it's just hard for them to identify with a particular national value. 
But for what it's worth I think Russians seem relatively romantic about relationships, really value poetry and literature, and try to help out their family members throughout their lifetimes. They think it's important to always "be there" for their friends, regardless what the friend needs. And I think they value education a lot.  
I am comparing to other European countries, particularly in Northern Europe and thoaw things are what stand out to me.

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## jnllll

> кстати по поводу его яростной борьбы с коррупцией, тыц - Навальный - жулик. Доказано! - YouTube

 Я знаю как некоторые могут играть словами, чтобы создавалось впечатление правдивости слов. И вот несколько соображений, которые не дают мне относиться к ролику серьёзно. 
1. 

> "На сайте роспил . инфо висит красивая цифра: мы не дали украсть 338 миллионов рублей "

 Где на сайте сказано, что эти 338 миллионов относятся именно к тому делу о котором идёт речь в ролике?  
2. 

> "15 марта 2011 года ООО строительно-торговая компания "Мегатек" подало жалобу в комиссию УФАС..."
> "жалоба А.А.Навльным была подана 28 марта 2011 года"

 Хотелось бы, для начала, достоверно узнать, дейтвительно ли эти жалобы ПОДАНЫ (а не РАССМОТРЕНЫ) в указанные сроки, .  
Ну а в конце порадовал комментарий 

> "Возможно, он это сделал для отчёта перед *Заказчиком*".

  Тут открывается очень широкий простор для следствий. Например:  
 - значит и "Мегатек" подал жалобу (возможно) по заказу *Заказчика*  
 - если Навальный не исполняет с рвением заказы *Заказчика*,(а только лишь присваивает чужие заслуги, то есть фактически саботирует (возможную) подрывную деятельность *Заказчика*), значит он (возможно) таки работает на благо Родины. 
ну и так далее.

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## Crocodile

> Is that really true? I would point out that Americans tend to value individualism over loyalty to the extended family/clan, for example. So isn't that an "American value"? (Although not in the sense of being exclusively American and not found at all in other nations -- only in the sense that it is characteristic of America [and some other countries], but is far from being globally universal.)

 I see your point. In my opinion, a value is a social property, not a national property. Like, a democratic society would value individualism and the society of slaveholders would value obedience. Using a raw approximation, at the same point in time the Northern Americans valued equality whilst the Southern Americans valued bourne supremacy. I think, a nation is too broad a term, which spans multiple societies, cultures and subcultures.

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## Doomer

> ну и так далее.

 Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

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## Crocodile

> Perhaps you would have wanted to see something like матрешка or олимпийский мишка but if the values can be used in any country it doesn't make them invaluable but makes more sense in them

 Please, remember that you're talking to a very simple-minded crocodile, so sometimes I have hard time following your lightning-fast and three-levels-deep thought. In such cases, you have to walk me through it in a simpler manner.  ::  How, on Earth, have you jumped from Navalniy's fight with the present Russian government to crocodile's probable perception of матрешка or олимпийский мишка? What do they have to do with each other? Btw, neither матрешка nor олимпийский мишка are values. The former is a toy and a latter is a mascot of Moscow Olympic Games of 1980.   

> Patriotism can be a value of any country but the way it's expressed is different in any country

 Patriotism can only be a value in patriot's eyes. Or in the government officials' eyes in order to send the patriots to promote or defend those officials' interests. A value is a social property.   

> He never has done anything to support patriotism in Russia but have done some things which considered anti-patriotic (by me at least) violation of Russian Coat of Arms is one of them 
> кстати по поводу его яростной борьбы с коррупцией, тыц - Навальный - жулик. Доказано! - YouTube

 Alright, so since you have cited a dirty propaganda, let me explain how the propaganda works using a simple example:  _DOOMER DECEIVES RUSSIAN PATRIOTS - PROVEN 
A Russian-speaking forum member Doomer repeatedly occused Navalniy of being non-patriotic. But, let's look at Doomer himself. He had specified his location as Chicago, IL. Doomer himself is not a Russian patriot because he left Russia and did not want to share the fate of his motherland during the turbulent times. He prefer to live in the US and is being paid US dollars. Can anybody expect Doomer to honestly care about Russian patriotism? Of course, not! Doomer is no judge for Navalniy who is getting prosecuted for his care for Russia. Unlike Doomer, Navalniy lives in Moscow and actively participates in the political life of his motherland. And Doomer is trying to disguise himself as a Russian patriot just to fight Navalniy and derail the real patriots' actions._  
You see how the propaganda is being created? So, please do not insult the other forum member's intelligence by re-posting some dirty propaganda. Thanks in advance.  ::

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## Doomer

как я уже и говорил ранее: свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
если вы заметили я не стараюсь вас убедить что то что я говорю это истина, я лишь высказываю свое мнение
вы же постоянно требуете доказательств правоты моего мнения  ::  Если вы так уверены что правы вы, то зачем вам доказательства обратного? 
I think I cannot be called patriot, I'll live with it. But I haven't created the video from the link I posted I just found it

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## Crocodile

> как я уже и говорил ранее: свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
> если вы заметили я не стараюсь вас убедить что то что я говорю это истина, я лишь высказываю свое мнение
> вы же постоянно требуете доказательств правоты моего мнения  Если вы так уверены что правы вы, то зачем вам доказательства обратного?

 Because I hope we have a discussion. A sane discussion is different from the fanatics' slogans primarily in that each opinion should be logically [and otherwise] supported. Therefore, the point of the sane discussion is primarily to form an opinion and verify it. What if your opinion about Navalniy is totally right and mine is wrong? Whilst the dogmatic slogans exchange is more like: "I'm right and I don't listen to anybody, because I know I'm right. So, why are you asking me to support my opinion? I only want to express myself shouting out my slogans as loud as I can!" I mean, I don't think Navalniy is God, and, like I said, he managed to anger many people including myself. He had participated in a nationalistic Russian March thus aligning himself with the nationalists. And I'm not a nationalist, so I got angry of him.  ::  So, you're more than welcome to criticize my opinion (of course not using some dirty propaganda) and I am always happy to test my opinion for strength. And probably dump my opinion for yours.

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## Doomer

Let's start from the beginning
here is my post which created the discussion
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?"
The only part which caught your eye was Russian values, that's strange but that's fine
I'm gonna re-phrase my thought
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption"
I think he does not
I also posted the video about it and I also explained my thoughts (on the first page) about the way he delivers information to readers in ЖЖ  
Now let's see your point of view

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## Crocodile

> Let's start from the beginning
> here is my post which created the discussion
> "If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?"
> The only part which caught your eye was Russian values, that's strange but that's fine

 You see, when I saw a word "analyze" I jumped. Wow! Someone else wants to analyze! I would really appreciate the analysis. So, in order to come to terms I started from the most obvious one - the term "Russian values" which seemed strange to me. Then the conversation drifted away to the Olympic mascot.    

> "If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption"

 Yay! Let's analyze his actions. Your phrase implied that you have done that analysis, so would you be kind enough to share it?   

> I also posted the video about it and I also explained my thoughts (on the first page) about the way he delivers information to readers in ЖЖ

 Right, and as those were tested for strength (by jnllll and me), you seemed to give up on both, did I get you right?   

> Now let's see you point of view

 http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%B0%...73/#post226671 
Start reading from: "_Navalniy had done some practical work [...]_"   

> I already asked if you actually read "the document" he provided and you didn't replay, why so?

 I actually have => http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%B0%...tml#post226902

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## jnllll

> Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
> Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

 Дело вовсе не в том, что есть разные мнения. (Я вообще не высказывал никакого мнения, а просто отметил сомнительность аргументации в ролике. В действительности, я не знаю кто прав - вы или Crocodile. )
Так вот, дело в том, что на подобные явления есть только одна - истинная - точка зрения. Потому что, к примеру,  если в закрытой бочке сидит кошка, она останется кошкой независимо от того, какой *версии* придерживается каждый из отгадывающих загадку "Кто сидит в бочке?". И если эти отгадчики желают действительно разгадать загадку, то они должны обосновывать свои *версии* логически на основе фактов (о чём писал Crocodile), а не выражать свои мнения относительно того, кого бы они *хотели* увидеть в бочке.

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## Doomer

> Yay! Let's analyze his actions. Your phrase implied that you have done that analysis, so would you be kind enough to share it?

 I did, on the first page Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny) 
one more thing  

> Ну, не то, чтобы я сильно вчитывался... так, по диагонали. Что касается проверки документов, я полагаюсь на специалистов из УБЭП. Если документы не в порядке, тогда в проведении проверки было бы отказано, именно на основании неполности или сомнительности документов. А если проверку невозможно провести из-за того, что иностранные компании отказываются предоставлять свои документы, тогда именно это и должно говориться в заключении. Правильно? Проверка была проведена, и заключение гласит, что никаких нарушений не обнаружено.

 you see, then people start repeating some BS w/o actually reading documents it may just become substitution of the truth 
This is the link from the article you quoted about УБЭП - http://www.rbcdaily.ru/2010/01/27/finance/454822
And here is a quote from it
"Вчера на встрече консультационного совета топ-менеджеры ВТБ предоставили миноритариям решение УБЭП ГУВД г. Москвы по данным запросам, рассказал один из участников встречи. В заключении УБЭП говорится, что правоохранительные органы рассмотрели заявление г-на Навального и провели соответствующую проверку. В результате признаков состава преступления или правонарушения в действиях менеджеров банка ВТБ и «ВТБ Лизинг» не обнаружено, отчитались в УБЭП."
One guy presumably from that meeting told somebody that he saw the УБЭП conclusion and that conclusion says that there is no crime in actions of the management
1. The only thing which we have here are words from unknown person
2. That person may interpret the documents as he like if he actually saw the document
3. Let's assume that he did see it and let's assume that the document does say that
I just want to ask the big question what is the crime that Навальный found in the documents and how he can back up his words?
Because I went through those documents he posted and I've seen precisely zero evidence 
BUT
here is another quote from the same link
«Поэтому решение УБЭП официальной важности не имеет», — считает Алексей Навальный.
So basically what he's saying is that УБЭП is bunch of incompetent morons who know nothing and have no authority 
So step-by-step
1. He puts loads of shady documents on his site which prove nothing
2. He forces УБЭП to go through the documents
3. He gets obvious conclusion
4. And finally he says that conclusion has no authority 
Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

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## Crocodile

> I did, on the first page

 Ok, seems like we're going in circles.  ::

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## jnllll

> Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

 Снова создаётся впечатление, что вы вместо кошки хотите увидеть в бочке что-то другое.
Это ведь то самое другое (то есть отличное от вашего) мнение Навального, о существовании которого [мнения] вы говорили следующее  

> Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
>  Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

 И странно теперь слышать как вы отзываетесь об этом мнении подобным образом  

> Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

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## Doomer

> _I did, on the first page_

  

> Ok, seems like we're going in circles.

 so this is the only thing from my whole post which is interesting to you?
I don't see how we can have a discussion about analyzing which you calling me upon

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## Doomer

> И странно теперь слышать как вы отзываетесь об этом мнении подобным образом

 это не мнение, мнение это когда никто не идет в правоохранительные органы
а когда идет, то такое мнение называется, в данном конкретном случае, бездоказательное обвинение или клевета

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## Crocodile

> so this is the only thing from my whole post which is interesting to you?

 Yes, kind of.  ::  
The Cypriot middlemen are definitely not required to purchase the 30 drilling stations from China. At least, not for that price. Navalniy was able to gather some documentation about that hoax and submitted an official request. Why do you think that is not a practical step to fight/drag attention to the corruption? I think that definitely is. Had Navalniy planned to make some political capital out of it? Definitely, yes. Had he made more political capital than he should? Maybe yes, maybe no. But, he had done some practical steps to fight the specific cases of the corruption. That is how our conversation started and in your analysis you have to address that.   

> I don't see how we can have a discussion about analyzing which you calling me upon

 Unfortunately, what you mentioned, cannot qualify for the analysis. You were trying to proof that Navalniy had known in advance there was no corruption in that case (aka the BS, клевета, etc.), and unfortunately you haven't proved that. At least, a simple-minded crocodile like myself can't get it from your analysis. I think you missed the elephant here.  ::  The documents were satisfactory to initiate the official investigation. That's all that was required from those documents. Do you personally think the Cyprus middleman was required? Do you know what is an "offshore scheme" and what would be the best place for such artificial offshore company to get its registration? Why to skip this thing in your analysis? 
=> http://www.offshore-now.com/offshores.htm  _"... где не разглашается информация об учредителях,          директорах компании и ее деятельности, а управление может осуществляться по          Генеральной Доверенности. Этот механизм используется для налогового планирования, а          также для множества других целей. "_ 
=> Оффшор Кипр. Оффшоры и оффшорные компании на Кипре.

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## Doomer

> The Cypriot middlemen are definitely not required to purchase the 30 drilling stations from China.

 says who?  

> Why do you think that is not a practical step to fight/drag attention to the corruption?

 Because I think it is the second target and the first target is to make a public comment about "poor work" done by governmental structures   

> You were trying to proof that Navalniy had known in advance there was no corruption in that case

 That's incorrect
I'm trying to tell that he KNEW in advance that nothing can be proven in that case thus knew the result of investigation and knew that he will be able to pose himself as "a hero fighting corruption while government don't want to do anything"  

> The documents were satisfactory to initiate the official investigation.

 That's again, incorrect
The only thing which need to be done to start an investigation is an application. There is no need to provide ANY other documents  

> Do you personally think the Cyprus middleman was required?

 IDK but my thinking about it will not prove or analyze anything, does it? 
Maybe it was the trace of corruption in this case but I'm repeating again, look what he's doing - HE'S TARGET IS NOT A CORRUPTION

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## Crocodile

> says who?

 _Clusseter Ltd._   

> 1. Because I think it is the second target and the first target is to make a public comment about "poor work" done by governmental structures 
> 2. Maybe it was the trace of corruption in this case but I'm repeating  again, look what he's doing - HE'S TARGET IS NOT A CORRUPTION
> 3. I'm trying to tell that he KNEW in advance that nothing can be proven in  that case thus knew the result of investigation and knew that he will  be able to pose himself as "a hero fighting corruption while government  don't want to do anything"

 To be honest, I'm not sure we can find out what his real goals are, that might also be a tough job for his psychoanalyst, and definitely not a source for the _factual analysis_. Who knows? Perhaps, he initially wanted to impress his girlfriend and then by saying A he was dragged into saying B. From where we stand, the job of finding out his so-called 'real goals' can only be pure speculation.   

> The only thing which need to be done to start an investigation is an application. There is no need to provide ANY other documents

 Really?!!! If I submit a request to investigate why Putin is doing this and that, my application will be rejected right away for the reason of incompleteness, because it has to have a MERIT which has to be _factually supported_. Hence the enclosed documentation.   

> IDK but my thinking about it will not prove or analyze anything, does it?

 The analysis is first and foremost a cognitive process. Your thinking is a requirement.  ::

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## Doomer

> _Clusseter Ltd._

 meaning noone I guess  

> To be honest, I'm not sure we can find out what his real goals are

 well, I'm just speculating here, same as you
I told you my thoughts and I provided my analysis, if you don't like it that doesn't mean that it's a lie   

> Really?!!! If I submit a request to investigate why Putin is doing this and that, my application will be rejected right away for the reason of incompleteness, because it has to have a MERIT which has to be _factually supported_. Hence the enclosed documentation.

 I guess you don't have enough knowledge about how the things work
1. you submit an application which must be accepted
2. if preliminary investigation is required (before opening a case) it supposed to be done
3. this application must be examined and decision should be made about opening a CASE
4. If case is opened then further investigation will be done 
So, when Навальный submitted an application (step 1) УБЭП did preliminary investigation (step 2) and didn't find состав преступления thus didn't open the CASE. There were some time spent between step1 and step2
If you submit an application about Putin that spent time between 1 and 2 might be just 30 seconds that's it. Also from my understanding you can't open a criminal case for certain people while they holding certain posts 
One more thing, for some incidents one don't even need step1, УБЭП must react just on verbal or written information which is enough to be suspicious
For example if one says that he or she is going to kill somebody it is enough information to move to step2 and no documents required

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## Crocodile

> well, I'm just speculating here, same as you
> I told you my thoughts and I provided my analysis, if you don't like it that doesn't mean that it's a lie

 That doesn't mean it's a lie, that's correct. If I say something like: "the space amoeba had just safely landed on the asteroid XZ-2011" that does not mean it's a lie. It's just I haven't provided enough evidence to support that. I also agree we're both speculating to some extent, which make our conclusions more probable or less probable in the end. I'm insisting on the fact that Navalniy had significantly drawn attention to the corruption issue and even coined a slogan. Both of us agree (I hope) that the corruption issue is real and is widespread. Ramil posted more on that some time back, something that he witnessed if I remember it correctly. Then, it's up to the government bodies to investigate. Do they want to do it, it's another matter. I suppose, you're right in that Navalniy produced documentation which was not sufficient to build a court case, because otherwise he would just bring the matter to court and demand compensation as a shareholder. But, I would still insist he had done some practical steps as opposed to doing nothing and just crying "Corruption!"

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## Doomer

> I'm insisting on the fact that Navalniy had significantly drawn attention to the corruption issue and even coined a slogan. Both of us agree (I hope) that the corruption issue is real and is widespread.

 I agree to this  

> But, I would still insist he had done some practical steps as opposed to doing nothing and just crying "Corruption!"

 You said before (and I hope you mean it now) that he has done some practical steps to FIGHT corruption
Well, as you said - you didn't provide enough evidence to that 
I just only insist that he has done some practical steps to PR himself and also to oppose Russian people against Russian government. I may just sound silly but from my point he's trying to bring chaos and destruction instead of real positive and creative actions 
Obviously if all the evidence would be easy to find he would be either in jail or powerful politician (depending on evidence). Right now he's just a clown with dangerous ideas or how some sources say:   :: )
блоггер-атомоход, гигант мысли, отец русской демократии, вождь «хомячков и бандерлогов», профессиональный скандалист, поцреот, юрист, самоопределённый совок, миноритарный акционер, толстенный тролль зажравшихся чиновников и госкорпораций в промышленном масштабе, шило в *опе правящей илиты, автор постов, каментов и мемов, борец с человекоподобными роботами, жертва инквизиции, неисправимый лурко**, Д'Артаньян и просто красавец-мужчина.

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## Hanna

This is getting interesting! Obviously the article that I read about Navalny did not explain the full story about him.  :: 
And it is really very typical that he is presented as a modern day Russian folk hero, standing up against corruption and dictatorship.. 
When really, most regular Russians don't even like him! (judging from the comments here...)  
Could you list the main irritating things that he done... I mean the things that made you dislike him?  
I got: 
He was inciting an Arab spring which might lead to civil war. 
He is making accusations without proper supporting evidence.. 
Something that involved a drill and China... ? 
What else?

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## Doomer

> What else?

 a liar and an offender maybe? Фальшивый адвокат Навальный / Новости / Труба &mdash; Карельская компьютерная сеть Ситилинк

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## Hanna

Oh dear. 
Well, are you reading what non-Russian media are writing about him?  
 " *Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny: Uniting Nationalists and the Urban, Educated Middle Class* " 
" *How Alexey Navalny is changing Putin's Russia* " 
" *Russian protest hero Alexei Navalny presses on with anti-corruption efforts against oil firm* "  
There is a serious gap between what the Russians here are saying about Navalny and how he is presented in Western media.  
I choose to believe the Russians at MR. 
But this is like a case study for a Media in Politics class... What the h-ck is going on? 
And meanwhile, according to RT.com:  *" December was an Information War Against Russia "*
‎

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## mishau_

He's grouping around Russian nazi. Not a good move actually; that reveales he's becomning a politican not a simple civil activist.

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## jnllll

> a liar and an offender maybe? Фальшивый адвокат Навальный / Новости / Труба — Карельская компьютерная сеть Ситилинк

  

> maybe...

  Хм.. У вас ещё есть сомнения? По-моему, анономному ролику надо доверять беспрекословно.

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## mishau_

После выборов Путина Навальному кранты. Думаю все эти выходки на Болотную и Сахарова так не останутся. Достаточно посмотерть как имеют, навример, Удальцова уже сейчас. Думаю надо задуматься, тем кто что-то пишет во всяких твиттерах-шмиттерах.

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## Hanna

He's now sentenced to  5 years in prison for corruption!
(but he is an anti-corruption activists). Frankly this does not look very flattering for Russia. Is he locked up because he's a powerful opposition member, or is he a fraud and even corrupt himself?  
I haven't followed this, and am not prejudiced, but I can definitely see how this will look in Western Media, and it seems suspect to me!

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## it-ogo

The main cause of that process was to provide Russian TV a reason to say "you see, he is a corruptioner". Just keep in mind that Russian courts are definitely not a proper tool to identify corruption. With no exception, politics or not. The system of "justice" is 100% corrupt. Occasionally it can provide some adequate sentences for violent criminals (if they didn't bother to pay enough) but that is all.

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## Paul G.

> Is he locked up because he's a powerful opposition member, or is he a fraud and even corrupt himself?

 Both things.
In fact, he's a swindler, but it was not proved by the court. I mean, it was not proved properly. So, although he's a little bit roguish, a judge acted in violation of the law. 
I guess, if Navalny wanted to be a real activist, he had to pay more attention to his skeletons in the closet. Otherwise your enemies will try to use them against you. Sure thing.

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## Hanna

> Just keep in mind that Russian courts are definitely not a proper tool to identify corruption.

 Ok since this is a language forum:   Just have to laugh because this was such a typically [educated] British way of phrasing it. If you'd said "not quite" or "not necessarily" instead of "definitely", it would have been 100% UK British way of totally axing Russian courts for being extremely corrupt. I.e. the art of understatement, lol.  
You say it, but you didn't actually say it... That's an aspect of (UK) English that most non-native speakers never learn, even after decades in Britain. Americans don't really use it either.    

> Both things.
> In fact, he's a swindler, but it was not proved by the court. I mean, it  was not proved properly. So, although he's a little bit roguish, a  judge acted in violation of the law. 
> I guess, if Navalny wanted to be a real activist, he had to pay more  attention to his skeletons in the closet. Otherwise your enemies will  try to use them against you. Sure thing.

 Thanks for the input. It's interesting how different the perspective of "Western" media is vs, what Russians say on MR!

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## it-ogo

> Ok since this is a language forum:   Just have to laugh because this was such a typically [educated] British way of phrasing it. If you'd said "not quite" or "not necessarily" instead of "definitely", it would have been 100% UK British way of totally axing Russian courts for being extremely corrupt. I.e. the art of understatement, lol.  
> You say it, but you didn't actually say it... That's an aspect of (UK) English that most non-native speakers never learn, even after decades in Britain. Americans don't really use it either.

 Don't you mean that the art of being direct is not quite a top priority in British tradition?

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## Hanna

> Don't you mean that the art of being direct is not quite a top priority in British tradition?

 Oh no, youtube quotes don't work anymore.. or is it just me?

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## Hanna

Alexei Navalniy and his brother Oleg get received suspended prison sentences for a corrupt deal whereby they overcharged the company Yves Rocher for mail deliveries that they then outsourced to super cheap couriers.  
Yves Rocher then sued the brothers. Interestingly Navalny runs a popular anti-corruption blog. However, he still managed to act in a corrupt way himself, in his dealings with this French company.  
As far as western press is concerned, this is political persecution of a major opposition figure in Russia. But wait, how did "Putin" convince Yves Rocher to participate? 
The Guardian  

> *Putin critic’s supporters say prison sentence for his brother shows  Kremlin returning to Soviet-era practice of punishing relatives*

 Well, did her cheat a French company, or not? 
If he did, the sentence is fair. If not it is political persecution.  
But why would a French company sue somebody in order to pursue political persectution of dissidents in Russia. Looks to me that Navalniy actually did rip somebody off and in that case he's not very credible to be blogging about anti-corruption.

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## RedFox

Ой, да это цирк какой-то, а не суд. У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает. Но в Новый Год, как известно, невозможное возможно.  ::

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## Hanna

> Ой, да это цирк какой-то, а не суд. У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает. Но в Новый Год, как известно, невозможное возможно.

 Is he definitely guilty of the crime he was convicted for? Dishonest business dealings with Yves Rocher?

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## Lampada

_"Алексея на 3 года условно (за раскрытие шубохранилищ) - чтоб народ не шел на площадь,
братана Олега - берут в заложники 3.5 реально. Кто скажет, что дело политическое?
Брат политикой не занимался."  _ СТАНИСЛАВ САДАЛЬСКИЙ - Умно однако.

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## bytemare

> Alexei Navalniy and his brother Oleg get received suspended prison sentences for a corrupt deal whereby they overcharged the company Yves Rocher for mail deliveries that they then outsourced to super cheap couriers.

 This itself is a common business practice.  Freight is negotiable and companies mark up freight.  There has to be something else going on.

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## Hanna

Well Yves Rocher didn't think it was normal. 
They thought it was so unacceptable that they sued.  
Edit - according to Swedish media, Yves Rocher say they have no complaint against Navalny. That is looking incredibly bad on Russia, if it is true. Is the crime fabricated?! Or did they just dig up some crime that was so insignificant that not even the victim complained...

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## RedFox

> Is he definitely guilty of the crime he was convicted for? Dishonest business dealings with Yves Rocher?

 Definitely not. All the case is just nonsense. If I buy something from John at a price of $1, and then I sell it to Bob at a price of $1.5, that means... I am guilty of corruption. LOL.  ::

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## hddscan

> Ой, да это цирк какой-то, а не суд. У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает. Но в Новый Год, как известно, невозможное возможно.

 It looks like the Russian government wants Navalniy to continue his opposition deeds but at the same time they want to limit what he's doing, trying to scare him off a little bit. Russia needs opposition badly but at the same time fears opposition when it gets too "radical".
I suspect that word that should describe this: the government wants to groom Navalniy

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## dtrq

> Ой, да это У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает.

 По какому именно закону? Вчера в медиа (либеральных, в основном) этот вопрос поднимался, говорят и по пять условных бывает и все по закону.

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## 14Russian

> It looks like the Russian government wants Navalniy to continue his opposition deeds but at the same time they want to limit what he's doing, trying to scare him off a little bit. Russia needs opposition badly but at the same time fears opposition when it gets too "radical".
> I suspect that word that should describe this: the government wants to groom Navalniy

 Want him to continue 'his opposition deeds?'   Why?   For distraction?   To make it seem like they 'tolerate' "opposition?" 
'I suspect that word that should describe this: *the government wants to groom Navalniy*' - this makes sense to me.   You might re-phrase this part, though:  "I suspect that word that should describe this"  ::  
I believe I understand your point, though.   They want to 'buy' his allegiance or 'invite him over?'   I understand he might be too 'pro-Western' or look at having a more open relationship with the West.   How would Putin et al. deal with that?   He studied at Yale?   The only thing, though, is that many Kremlin cronies have gone abroad for business or education.   Many oligarchs have trips to the UK for e.g.   So, going to the USA shouldn't bother too many Russians?   Imho, the problem is that it's very near-impossible to be a true opposition force in Russia.   Ones that try are often jailed.   Not threatened with prison, they actually get a sentence.   That is, one is to assume that they refuse to be bought off or to 'cooperate.'   So, it could be described as such:  'either compromise and share power or get the full extent of the law thrown at you' (even if it is via 'tricks' etc.).   Putin has changed the laws or modified them extensively to curb expression and have 'wording' so that they can criminalize any criticism.    
One last question:   how many Russians do you think have the idea that the government wants to 'groom him?'   What do they think are his motives or how would he respond to the Government's policy on him?  In bold display, thousands in Russia protest Alexei Navalny sentence - LA Times Conviction of Putin foe sets off protest in Moscow 
It seems that Western media is prepared to make him look like a persecuted 'political prisoner' so that could be another reason why they don't want to push on him too harshly?

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## Basil77

> Well Yves Rocher didn't think it was normal. 
> They thought it was so unacceptable that they sued.  
> Edit - according to Swedish media, Yves Rocher say they have no complaint against Navalny. That is looking incredibly bad on Russia, if it is true. Is the crime fabricated?! Or did they just dig up some crime that was so insignificant that not even the victim complained...

 First, when saying that Yves Rocher have no complaint against Navalny his lawyers show INTERNAL(!) letter from one of Yves Rocher managers to CEO that Navalny didn't do anything bad, besides the case is bad for reputation and so let's say that we have no complaints. CEO said that the case is valid. And to the question if he guilty or not... I knew people who got prison sentences for far less then that:   

> Сразу бросаются в глаза две вещи, которые Навальный старательно обходит стороной. 
> Во-первых, Олег Навальный действительно являлся топ-менеджером на «Почте  России» и мог воспользоваться служебным положением для  принуждения  Ив  Роше заключить договор с ООО "Главподписка". Подсудимые этот факт никак   не опровергают. 
>     Во-вторых, следствием установлено, что денежные средства, полученные от  Ив Роше фирмой Навального, были спешно "легализованы". Двадцать  миллионов были выведены на счета ООО "Кобяковская фабрика по  лозоплетению", которое принадлежит родителям Навального. В частности, по  договору аренды помещения 78 метров со ставкой аренды 300 000 рублей в  месяц. 
>     Чтобы понимать порядок цен, ставка аренды в бизнес-центре класса "А" в  хорошем районе Москвы - в два с половиной раза (!) меньше, чем в подмосковном Кобяково. 
>     Учитывая взаимозависимость арендатора и арендодателя, очевидно, что  имела место мнимая сделка с целью вывода незаконно заработанных денег.

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## Antonio1986

... In 2012, The Wall Street Journal described him as "*the man Vladimir Putin fears most*" ... Wikipedia/ English Version

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## Hanna

> First, when saying that Yves Rocher have no complaint against Navalny his lawyers show INTERNAL(!) letter from one of Yves Rocher managers to CEO that Navalny didn't do anything bad, besides the case is bad for reputation and so let's say that we have no complaints. CEO said that the case is valid. And to the question if he guilty or not... I knew people who got prison sentences for far less then that:

 But if the alleged victim doesn't have a complaint, then why prosecute? 
Even if they decide they don't want the negative publicity - that's their call.  
Le Monde writes about this here Comment le procès d'Alexeï Navalny est devenu « l'affaire Yves Rocher » 
in a fairly unbiased way, I think. 
Apparently the prosecution comes after Yves Rocher asked some Russian official about getting out of a disadvantageous contract, if I understood correctly. Russia is Yves Rocher's second largest market after France. The case was looked into and the alleged corruption was discovered. But Yves Rocher didn't sue Navalny or report them to anticorruption watchdogs, or anything. 
It looks like Navalny probably did behave a bit dishonestly, but nobody even sued him for it or complained about it. So why prosecute? 
Or am I missing something here?  
This looks like abuse of the justice system to punish somebody who is politically inconvenient. I don't like it, and frankly I don't see why Putin with his 80% approval ratings would resort to something as shady as that. 
I don't normally by into the criticisms of Russia in Western press, and it's obvious to me that most Russians don't even care about having Western democracy anyway. They'd rather have stability and economic growth.  Fine!  
 But this time it looks like they are on to something. Who cares if Navalny overcharged a company that doesn't care about having been overcharged?  
If the powers to be in Moscow wants to stop Navalnys activism they ought to be open about it, not whip up something like this. It undermines peoples faith in the justice system too, and it's petty. It gives Russia a bad reputation abroad.  
If I understood the facts in this correctly then I disagree with the actions of the Russian state in this. 
Some Russian in Luxembourg has started a petition against Yves Rocher about this. Part of the petition says:   

> On 4 December 2012, Bruno Leproux, general director of Yves Rocher  Vostok, requested that the Investigative Committee of Russia look into  the possible losses that Yves Rocher may have incurred in 2008-2012 as a  result of its partnership with the firm Glavpodpiska. One of  Glavpodpiska's shareholders was Alexey Navalny, who by 2012 had become  the leader of the Russian opposition and was under constant pressure  from the Russian authorities. 
> This request provided a formal  pretext to start a criminal case against Alexey Navalny. Despite the  legal prosecution, Navalny did not end his political activity and was  then placed under house arrest. It has now been six months since he was  barred from using the Internet, talking with anyone apart from close  relatives, or making any comments to the press.
>  An internal investigation carried out by Yves Rocher Vostok showed  that the accusations were groundless and that no financial damage was  inflicted. Nevertheless, Yves Rocher is taking an extremely passive  position in court: it has not demanded that justice be restored and it  has not filed a request to drop the case due to lack of grounds. With  its inaction, Yves Rocher is allowing a  political process to develop  which will let Vladimir Putin dispose of his main and most principled  opponent - Alexey Navalny.

 Seems very odd to say that "Putin's main opponent" is a blogger.

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## Basil77

> But if the alleged victim doesn't have a complaint, then why prosecute? 
> Even if they decide they don't want the negative publicity - that's their call.

 They DO have a complaint. It's one of their managers who doesn't make a final decision who just offered their CEO to cancel the complaints. So the complaint is still valid. Second, everyone somehow forgot that besides two sides: Yves Rocher and Navalny's company there's a third side which also got losses: Почта России. It's a state company where Navalny's brother worked. It's him who make sure that Navalny's company got this very questionable contract and for that he got 3 years of real prison sentence because it's a clear case of corruption. 
Вкратце, насколько я понял из материалов дела в открытых источниках, схема была следующая:
У Ив Роше возникают проблемы с доставкой заказов клиентам через Почту России (что неудивительно, всем известно как она у нас работает). Олег Навальный, который на тот момент является в Почте России большой шишкой, настоятельно рекомендует Ив Роше заключить договор с коммерческой фирмой-посредником, через которую проводить все сделки с почтой России, во избежание дальнейших проблем с доставкой. Совершенно случайно эта волшебная компания, которая так замечательно умеет решать все проблемы с доставкой через Почту России принадлежит его родному брату Алексею. Договор заключается и компания Алексея за короткое время получает от Ив Роше около миллиона долларов за свои посреднические услуги по "решению проблем". Чтобы не платить налоги с прибыли, а также на всякий случай (вдруг лохи-французы поймут, что их обвели вокруг пальца и попросят деньги вернуть), фирмой Навального заключается договор аренды маленького помещения у фабрики, принадлежащей его родителям, с месячной ставкой в 30(!) раз превышающей рыночную. Соответственно, деньги со счёта фирмы Навального выводятся на счёт его родителей как плата за аренду помещения. Схемка в общем-то простая, как валенок, и такое происходит сплошь и рядом. И сажают за такие дела и чиновников-воришек, как брат Навального Олег, и и бизнесменов-решальщиков, как сам Навальный, каждый год десятками, если не сотнями. Вот только по поводу других никто не поднимает такой дикой истерики. В СССР за такие дела бы к стенке поставили сразу, а тут: "условно", домашний арест и всё такое. Было бы о чём кричать.

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## Hanna

Ok I am very much in favour of Russia clamping down hard on corruption. As far as I am concerned, anyone corrupt should get a hard punishment until people get the message. It's pathetic that a European country is as corrupt as Russia apparently is. I am very glad that they are dealing with it.  
The question is whether they would have prosecuted normal citizens for the crimes that Navalny and his brother apparently committed? Or did they get targetted because they are opposition figures?  
I believe in honesty and transparency in politics and if the authorities want to stop Navalny's blog they should just be honest and say "this type of writing is illegal, cease it or you'll go to prison". Like China does.  
On the other hand, I am aware that there is a huge media campaign in West against Russia, trying to depict a dictatorship in which anyone who opposes Putin is sent to a labour camp like some kind of flashback to the 19th century.  
I am trying to figure out what happened here:  
A corrupt person, who happens to be an anti-government person got justly sentenced for fraudulent business practices....?  
Or an innocent anti-government blogger was targetted with trumped corruption charges to scare him off his anti-government activities.   
And note: With the state of democracy in the EU, in Sweden and the UK I don't think I am in a position to point a finger at Russia. "Let him who is free from sin cast the first stone". Hence, I just want to understand what happened .

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## bytemare

This is what I was talking about when I said earlier that there HAS to be more to the story than just inflating shipping charges.  I've read Russian media but I didn't see any additional information there as compare to non Russia media.   

> On the other hand, I am aware that there is a huge media campaign in  West against Russia, trying to depict a dictatorship in which anyone who  opposes Putin is sent to a labour camp like some kind of flashback to  the 19th century.

 I would be interested to see any mainstream media that actually portrays this.

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## Hanna

> I would be interested to see any mainstream media that actually portrays this.

 Putin just imprisoned an innocent man to silence his opposition-leader brother - Vox  Alexei Navalny, Enemy Of Vladimir Putin, Thrown In Jail On Way To Protest Rally In Moscow  Pussy Riot band members sent to remote prison camps | World news | The Guardian  Russia is built like a prison camp, says freed Pussy Riot member Nadezhda Tolokonnikova 
Among Despots and Demagogues Bland despoter och demagoger - DN.SE

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## bytemare

This is mainstream media? 
Oh well at least I can read about zombies one on of those sites.  And see nice pictures of Taylor Swift  ::

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## Hanna

> This is mainstream media? 
> Oh well at least I can read about zombies one on of those sites.  And see nice pictures of Taylor Swift

 No sorry, you are right. The reporting on Russia is very balanced, nuanced and fair. 
Something that the free world and unbiased press can be really proud off. 
A leader who has the support of 89% in his country is portrayed as a despot, in comparison with Obama who enjoys 25%. 
Fair, free unbiased press. ::  Move on people, no agitation here....      (Картинки, неуместные на этом форуме, вытерты.  Л.)

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## bytemare

I didn't say it was balanced or nuanced or anything like that.  Actually, the only thing I commented on was: 
"trying to depict a dictatorship in which anyone who opposes Putin is  sent to a labour camp like some kind of flashback to the 19th century" 
I never heard of that magazine either.... it's kind of funny how it has that picture and above it the sentence about pit bulls  ::   But really, it's quite easy to find such silly magazines in the west as well as the east.  Just go to mail.ru and see all of the crazy news about "the west."  But I don't see much mainstream news that says that everyone in Russia is going to labor camps.

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## Hanna

> I didn't say it was balanced or nuanced or anything like that.  Actually, the only thing I commented on was: 
> "trying to depict a dictatorship in which anyone who opposes Putin is  sent to a labour camp like some kind of flashback to the 19th century" 
> I never heard of that magazine either.... it's kind of funny how it has that picture and above it the sentence about pit bulls   But really, it's quite easy to find such silly magazines in the west as well as the east.  Just go to mail.ru and see all of the crazy news about "the west."  But I don't see much mainstream news that says that everyone in Russia is going to labor camps.

 
You never heard of Spiegel, Newsweek. The Week, Daily Mail or the Sun. 
Ok, I am wasting my time here (Вытерто. Л.). What do you think uneducated people who read the headlines and spend five minutes skimming these articles will think?   
The Russians voted for this man, and 80% say they approve of him as a president. Russia is no threat to anyone in the EU and certainly not the USA - that's really all we need to know.  
These papers are agitating in a way that would make Goebbels proud.

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## bytemare

> You never heard of Spiegel, Newsweek. The Week, Daily Mail or the Sun. 
> Ok, I am wasting my time here or you are just being stupid on purpose. What do you think uneducated people who read the headlines and spend five minutes skimming these articles will think?   
> The Russians voted for this man, and 80% say they approve of him as a president. Russia is no threat to anyone in the EU and certainly not the USA - that's really all we need to know.  
> These papers are agitating in a way that would make Goebbels proud.

 Like I said, I don't see anywhere where it's written about some flashback to the 19th century.  As for news from the UK I'm familiar with the BBC. 
I don't disagree that he was voted into office and has a high approval rating, and I also don't see any threat from Russia to the EU.   And yes, you have some crazy papers there, I agree  ::

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## 14Russian

> You never heard of Spiegel, Newsweek. The Week, Daily Mail or the Sun. 
> Ok, I am wasting my time here or you are just being stupid on purpose. What do you think uneducated people who read the headlines and spend five minutes skimming these articles will think?   
> The Russians voted for this man, and 80% say they approve of him as a president. Russia is no threat to anyone in the EU and certainly not the USA - that's really all we need to know.  
> These papers are agitating in a way that would make Goebbels proud.

 _(Вытерто. Л.)_   You read RT.    ::    All those sources are offset by the biased Russian (Kremlin-influenced/controlled) media... they have Russia Today (RT) when they want it in English.  ::

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## 14Russian

What about what the Moscow Times says?:  ::  Yves Rocher Has Rouge on Its Face | Opinion | The Moscow Times

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## dtrq

There's popular conspiracy theory "Navalny is a Kremlin project", recent events make it quite plausible. At least it's more plausible than "they threw his brother in prison to make him step back". 
Also I think Oleg will get conditional sentence after the appeal.

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## Hanna

> (Картинки, неуместные на этом форуме, вытерты.  Л.)

 What!!! 
They were front page covers of mainstream magazines! 
What was inappropriate about them?  
I was accused of simply making up that there is agitation against Russia in Western press.  
I posted the magazine covers to show that there is a very clear pattern of villification of Russia and Putin, as demonstrated by these magazine covers.  
Then you delete them.  
How can I participate here, if I am not allowed to defend myself from accusations, and if mainstream English newspapers are considered inappropriate.  
I think you should explain in detail what was wrong with posting those covers. It's certainly not clear to me. 
The post was on topic and the pictures were deemed appropriate for European and American magazines, so it's hard to see why they should be censored here.

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## Lampada

> ..I posted the magazine covers to show that there is a* very clear pattern of villification of Russia and Putin*, ... .

 Hanna, you said it yourself.

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## Hanna

> Hanna, you said it yourself.

 And what's wrong with having this opinion, and trying to prove it right when I am accused of making it up? 
That's exactly what debating in forums is about, and I did it by posting some pictures that very clearly illustrated the point.  
The only explanation I can see, is that you disagree with what I was saying and that you use the moderating priveligies to censor the opinion. That is not ok for me.  
Anyone who disagreed could for example have shown picture of Russian villifications and exaggeration regarding Ukraine, i.e. - it seems to be clear that Russian papers are relatively one-sided in their coverage of Ukraine, but is it worse, or less serious than what happens in Western media regarding Russia at the moment? Rather than censor me, why not allow somebody to respond?  
I totally sympathise that you might be pissed off with Russia for events in Ukraine because of your own background or politicial views in general. There is no doubt that Russia is pursuing a geopolitical agenda in Ukraine, and that Ukrainians have legitimate historical grievances. But I can't accept that this should mean that I am censored in what I write here.

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## Lampada

> And what's wrong with having this opinion, and trying to prove it right when I am accused of making it up? 
> That's exactly what debating in forums is about, and I did it by posting some pictures that very clearly illustrated the point.  
> The only explanation I can see, is that you disagree with what I was saying and that you use the moderating priveligies to censor the opinion. That is not ok for me.  
> Anyone who disagreed could for example have shown picture of Russian villifications and exaggeration regarding Ukraine, i.e. - it seems to be clear that Russian papers are relatively one-sided in their coverage of Ukraine, but is it worse, or less serious than what happens in Western media regarding Russia at the moment? Rather than censor me, why not allow somebody to respond?  
> I totally sympathise that you might be pissed off with Russia for events in Ukraine because of your own background or politicial views in general. There is no doubt that Russia is pursuing a geopolitical agenda in Ukraine, and that Ukrainians have legitimate historical grievances. But I can't accept that this should mean that I am censored in what I write here.

 А *по теме* у тебя есть что сказать?

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