# Forum General General Discussion  Israel-Lebanon conflict

## SummerKiss

Hundreds of innocent people die in both countries but it seems that world leaders are not going to stop their geopolitical games and will continue that cruel bloodshed.  
With whom are you? Whould be interesting to know all kinds of opinion.

----------


## Ramil

I'm on the side of civilians who suffer both in Israel and Lebanon.

----------


## voshliya

> Hundreds of innocent people die in both countries but it seems that world leaders are not going to stop their geopolitical games and will continue that cruel bloodshed.  
> With whom are you? Whould be interesting to know all kinds of opinion.

 I am jewish so.....
but what's happening is terrible on both sides
all those conflicts will continue until the earth exploses
What' s about America and Russia?With whom are they?
In France most of the people and our government is with the Liban

----------


## DDL

I'm on Israel's side. They've been bending over backwards to try to keep peace there, but it's about time they stood up for themselves again. I'm just waiting for their victory and hoping there aren't too many losses on their side (I have an Israeli friend who helps keep me up to date).

----------


## Remyisme

> I'm on Israel's side. They've been bending over backwards to try to keep peace there, but it's about time they stood up for themselves again. I'm just waiting for their victory and hoping there aren't too many losses on their side (I have an Israeli friend who helps keep me up to date).

 Thank you man.

----------


## tdk2fe

Isreal is just as much of a terrorist group as Al-Qaida.  Check this out:  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... mised+Land 
And no, i'm not anti-semetic.  I'm just not somebody who agrees with a nation that commits war crimes in the name of self-defense.   
tdk

----------


## Lampada

> Isreal is just as much of a terrorist group as Al-Qaida.  
> ...
> tdk

 Ааа, глянь, а я думала, что Израиль - страна, союзник США.

----------


## tdk2fe

It is.  But there are a lot of people in the USA that don't agree with the current policy of unconditional support for Isreal.   
tdk

----------


## Lampada

> It is.  But there are a lot of people in the USA that don't agree with the current policy of unconditional support for Isreal.   
> tdk

 Зато они, наверное, были согласны с ответом своего правительства на убийство в Бейруте двухсот сорока одного солдата в 1983 году.

----------


## DDT

It is pretty plain to see that Israel wears a White hat. 
What is hard to see is why there is so much negative said about Israel. That is what should really be the topic of discussion.

----------


## Lampada

> It is pretty plain to see that Israel wears a White hat. 
> What is hard to see is why there is so much negative said about Israel. That is what should really be the topic of discussion.

 Наверное, лучше вернуться к русскому языку.

----------


## tdk2fe

@DDT: 
It's the same thing as why there is so much bad stuff said about America.  The two countrie's situations are pretty much identical - a few crazy people kidnap soldiers / kill thousands of innocent people.  The response?  Invasion of a foreign country.   
tdk

----------


## DDT

> It is.  But there are a lot of people in the USA that don't agree with the current policy of unconditional support for Isreal.   
> tdk

 Yes, but they are defective people, like many of the interviewees in your film. I mean what would you expect a reporter from "The Village Voice" to say?  ::

----------


## tdk2fe

I'm not just talking about people in the film.  I agree, it obviously has a bias, but the facts remain.   
tdk

----------


## DDT

Oh come now! There were no real facts presented in the film. It was simply a sham to beguile the gullible and people who know nothing of Israel and history.

----------


## scotcher

You want to know why Israel gets a proportionally harder time for acting just as badly as the terrorists they are fighting?

----------


## Lampada

> You want to know why Israel gets a proportionally harder time for acting just as badly as the terrorists they are fighting?

 Да? Точно также? Что то я не слышала о том, что Насбулла разбрасывает листовки, предупреждающие о предстоящей бомбёжке?  
Isreali warplanes drop leaflets over Lebanon warning local residents to flee.

----------


## JJ

Well, maybe they drop leaflets with something like "surrender, don't panic, stay home", ah?

----------


## basurero

I'm with Lebanon. Israel needs to chill a little.

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

I'm on the fence like usual. Both sides are in the wrong. The total destruction of Lebonon is uncalled for, but so is Hizbollah's terrorism. 
No one side can claim to be in the right. Give me one argument and I can counter it with with ten.

----------


## DDT

Where is that chick who started this whole argument?

----------


## Plastic-Saint

I personally think its funny... Hezbollah wasn't expecting the jews to pull an America  ::  But joking aside, I'm with Israel and anyone who crushes millitant muslims and the countries that harbor them knowingly.

----------


## DDT

I know! What did Hezollah think? That Israel would *not* clobber them?

----------


## Ramil

I wouldn't be surprised to discover that there are some CIA agents stirring Hezbollah to do some mischief to keep the Middle East boiling hot. That would be to noone's interest in bigger politics to have calm and peaceful Middle East. While there is oil in there, there would never be any peace. 
Israel is just a "hostage" of the situation. It must respond to such attacks for it is strongly dependant on the USA financially and politically. 
And I have some suspects also on whose money exactly Hezbollah performs its activity

----------


## scotcher

> I know! What did Hezollah think? That Israel would *not* indiscriminately clobber anyone unlucky enough to find themselves in Lebanon?

 Fixed that for you, Sprinkles.

----------


## basurero

Эта тема должна быть разрушена.

----------


## Ramil

> Эта тема должна быть разрушена.

 Ты имеешь ввиду закрыта (closed) или разрушена (destroyed) ?  ::

----------


## basurero

И то, и другое. Должна быть закрыта ядерной бомбой.

----------


## Ramil

> И то, и другое. Должна быть закрыта ядерной бомбой.

 Now THAT is what I call the ultimate solution to the Middle East Problems. Sink it below the sea surface.  ::

----------


## ST

недавно смотрел ОРТ, сказали что Израли(е)тяне называют реактивные снаряды хамаза "катюшами"   ::

----------


## Alware

> недавно смотрел ОРТ, сказали что Израильтяне называют реактивные снаряды хамаза "катюшами"

----------


## Орчун

I'm on the side of Lebanon.Israel had betta stop it

----------


## SummerKiss

I'm on the side of Lebanon and I pray for piece. However it looks like there are too many sides who are interested in continuation of the conflict and destruction of infrastructure and economy of Lebanon, which has grown stronger and started to develop recently.

----------


## Remyisme

I'm on no side, i just wish them to stop bombing my city, so i could start going to work.

----------


## SummerKiss

> I'm on no side, i just wish them to stop bombing my city, so i could start going to work.

 Which city are you from?

----------


## Remyisme

Haifa

----------


## SummerKiss

> Haifa

 I hope piece will come soon.  
Thats why I'm so shocked! While big bosses in ties and suites cant divide money, land and authority and play that bloody game simple citizens are locked in the shelters, they cant work they cant have fun they cant live their normal life! And the world is staying silent.......

----------


## prospector

> It is pretty plain to see that Israel wears a White hat. 
> What is hard to see is why there is so much negative said about Israel. That is what should really be the topic of discussion.

 Plain to see if you're totally biased or deluded I guess. 
The Israelis are busy destroying a people's right to self-determination while nobody in the West notices or cares. They don't want the Palestianians to have their own state and have been tightening their grip on the land for years. Settlement continues all the time in a desire to create a "greater Israel". The Palestianians will be forced to live in apartheid like Bantustans. That's the Israeli "plan for peace".    
So, in 50 years people who have yet to be born and have nothing to do with past conflicts will be forced to live like animals, penned in to fragmented scraps of land that are totally dependent on Israel. Most will probably have to work inside Israel as second class citzens with no say in the state that effectively rules them. Israeli "democracy" won't extend to them. 
Israel's policies are ensuring discontent and conflict will persist for generations in the Middle East.

----------


## Dogboy182

How can you say isreal is a terrorist state?  
Theres a diffrence between Hezbollah Bombing innocent civilians at bus stops with suicide bombers and isreal accidently killing civilains by collateral damage with bombs. Sure accidents happen, soldiers get nervous and sometimes civialians die. Even sometimes there are murders... But 98% of the time, isreal is acting in self defense. Im pretty sure Isreal never send any suicide bombers to perpously target civilians. 
Why not bash Russia while you're at it? You going to call Russians terrorists for trying to contain the situation in Chechnya? 
So, some civilains in Chechnya die. Zachistki kill a lot of uneeded people. But they kill even more people who deserve it. Russian goverment claims there are never more than 2000 active terrorists in checnya at one time. Most of them right, and then rotate back into the civilian world. 
What im saying is, its sad that Chechen, Palistinian, Lebanese civilians have to die. But lets be real. They  are the agressors. In 1991 Russia didnt say "Hey chechnya, go ahead, try to break off and be independant... OH JUST KIDDING" and start bombing a bunch of civilians. 
As soon as the people of chechnya get rid of this dilousion of some great islamic nation, completely free from Russian control... the sooner there will be peace. 
Same goes with Lebenon and Palestine. The sooner they get over the fact that, THERE IS more than just 1 god "allah" and that isreal isnt going anywhere anytime soon, the sooner they can get off their insane radical islamic horse and there will be peace. 
And im sure someone is going to post  story about how a group of russian soldiers beheaded a suspected sniper in chechnya and sent his disfigured body back to his family. But before you go all hippy on us, please spare the sob story and know that I, or 99% of anyone else who is forced to serve in defense of their country would do the same thing to anyone suspected of killing their brothers.  
*Note. Im not a supporter of either Isreal of Lebenon. Isreal wasn't even there 100 years ago, and I can understand how the muslims are mad of the jews presence in the region. But lets be real. The muslims here in both cases are the agressors. How many airplanes has Isreal hijacked? schools have they bombed? suicide bombers have they funded? Thats right hippies. Get over it. Dont start a fight if you can't finish it*

----------


## Vadim84

In case somebody here doesn't know how to spell the name of the state in question, it's "Israel"

----------


## DDT

> But before you go all hippy on us

   ::

----------


## DDT

> Isreal wasn't even there 100 years ago, and I can understand how the muslims are mad of the jews presence in the region.

 But there wasn't a State of Jordan either. And Musilms are* not* all pissy about that. The Middle East probelm is all about Muslim intolerance of religion. If it is not Muslims hating lews it is Shia against Sunni.

----------


## DDL

> The Middle East probelm is all about Muslim intoerance of religion.

 Totally agree, DDT. 
The Muslims see it as their duty to murder anyone that doesn't agree with their religious views. 
Anyone that says that Israel is a terrorist nation should quit listening to the biased media and do some research for themselves.

----------


## Scotland to Russia

I'm with Lebanon on this, Israel are killing more civillians than Hezbollah, The are bombing the south Lebanese cities to basically make them uninhabbitable, it's a disgrace. 
And bombing the U.N. today? What are Israel playing at, ridiculous. 
A ceasefire should be called by the strong nations immediatley. 
I hope syria and Iran step in to help Lebanon and stop them mindlessly destroying everthing and everyone.

----------


## DDT

> Haifa

 Don't worry Remy, I'll fight for you!

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

Hezbollah has to stop deliberatly hiding behind women and children, they are indirectly responsible for their civilians' deaths. However, bombing UN observers is quite a no-no! I doubt Hezbollah was hiding behind them.

----------


## Dogboy182

> In case somebody here doesn't know how to spell the name of the state in question, it's "Israel"

 Well thats stupid spelling if you ask me. 
And true about the civs... Though its sad its hippocritical. You don't see IsrAEl chaining civilians to the sides of tanks and helecopters in an effort to deflect or  block bullets, and then complain about civilian casualties. 
Why do the terrorists do this? 
Oo0o0o You bombed a school!! Well if you wouldn't have taken that school over 5 months ago and started stockpiling weapons there it wouldn't have got bombed.

----------


## Haksaw

I stand with Israel. The fanatical extremist Muslims have been preparing for years for this war; they wanted it. If for "Peace" you roll over and "turn the other cheek", they are going to kill you. The Hezbollah want to annihilate the Jews, and the next step is the elimination of Chrisitians and "the West".[

----------


## Plastic-Saint

> I hope syria and Iran step in to help Lebanon and stop them mindlessly destroying everthing and everyone.

 Do you think they could really hope to stop our beloved Israel? ...lol... especially whilst ol' crusadin' george is in the white house? I think not... unless they have a death wish...(which they might.. false ideals of what their religion offers the 'martyr' and all...)

----------


## capecoddah

Frank Zappa Dumb All Over 
You can't run a country 
By a book of religion 
Not by a heap 
Or a lump or a smidgeon 
Of foolish rules 
Of ancient date 
Designed to make 
You all feel great 
While you fold, spindle 
And mutilate 
Those unbelievers 
From a neighboring state  
*To poof them out of existance 
*While leaving their real estate just where 
we need it* 
*To use again* 
*For temples in which to praise 
OUR GOD* 
*("Cause he can really take care of 
business!")*  
Hey, we can't really be dumb 
If we're just following *God's Orders* 
Hey, let's get serious... 
God knows what he's doin' 
He wrote this book here 
An' the book says: 
*He made us all to be just like Him," 
so... 
If we're dumb... 
Then God is dumb... 
*(An' maybe even a little ugly on the side)*
[/url]

----------


## Орчун

hell *uck  ::  ! Israel was founded by some given lands,there wasn't a country called Israel in near future,they didn't even need to fight for land or their country as they had already got the power with the help of USA.I call Israel as ''The little USA'',but Israel is just a puppet country...

----------


## Lampada

Интересная статься в "Известиях":  http://www.izvestia.ru/sokolov/article3094927/  *Сладкая и соленая вода* 
Максим Соколов 
Российские споры касательно ливанской войны усугубляются долгой традицией шизофренического отношения к нашим и к израильским проблемам.  Хоть наши левые, хоть наши правые как будто специально задавались целью опровергнуть слова о том, что не может из одного источника течь и сладкая, и соленая вода. Текла, да ещё и как. 
Леволибералы, огласив весь набор доводов насчет слезинки чеченского ребенка (а равно и моджахеда): "Российская военщина известна всему свету, как мать говорю и как женщина, требую их к ответу", - как только речь заходила о делах арабо-израильских, тут же забывали про свою заутреню в защиту мира и переходили на язык тель-авивских ястребов и военщину к ответу отнюдь не требовали, равно как и слезинка палестинского ребенка их мало волновала.  
На противном фланге наблюдалось то же самое. Люди, применительно к российским делам провозглашавшие приверженность интересам общегосударственным, требующим в известных случаях и самой жесткой защиты, в том числе и вооруженной рукой, и отвергавшие всякие иностранные попытки поучения в тех же чеченских делах, столь же чудесно преображались, лишь только речь заходила об Израиле. Вместо рьяного государственника перед нами являлся совершенный лорд Джадд (только что тем же государственником обруганный) со стандартным набором общечеловеческих поучений - "только политический диалог", "недопустимость применения силы", "сопрягать надо, сопрягать" etc. 
Такая странная история доктора Джекила и мистера Хайда имеет корни в советском прошлом. Тогда все было проще. Арабисты и борцы с израильской военщиной могли заниматься своим делом без лишних сомнений, поскольку не было ситуации стеклянного дома, мешающей бросаться камнями в других. Когда не было риска самому оказаться в роли израильской военщины, выступать против нее было хорошо. В 90-е гг. мы сами оказались в этой роли, и в сочетании со старыми обычаями вышла шизофрения. Точно так же диссидентствующей общественности, когда она аплодировала Израилю, и помститься не могло, что на территории РСФСР появится нечто вроде палестинских патриотов и с ними что-то придется делать. Когда они появились, "Мир Чечне!" и "Хэвену шалом алейхем" тоже вступили меж собой в шизофренические отношения. 
Различие между левыми и правыми тут неизбывно. Одни говорят: "Кто исполнен истинным духом общечеловеческим, тот найдет в себе способность и словами, и жестами, и всем своим видом так подействовать на несчастного темного брата, сумеет произвести на него такое потрясающее впечатление, что он сразу постигнет свою ошибку и откажется от своего ложного пути". Другие возражают: "Слова-то были бы тут, пожалуй, вполне неуместны. А что касается жестов, производящих потрясающее впечатление, то лучше залпов картечи, воля ваша, для данных обстоятельств ничего не придумаешь".  
Лично я полностью придерживаюсь второго мнения. Когда речь идет о безопасности страны, без жестов, производящих потрясающее впечатление, бывает, что не обойтись, и когда Израиль стоит перед такой необходимостью, наносить ему удар в спину было бы не только низко, но и довольно глупо. У России не так много естественных союзников, чтобы ими с легкостью прокидываться непонятно ради чего. В контексте "ради чего" про арабскую верность просьба не рассказывать. Но в любом случае лучше, когда и та, и другая позиция отличаются последовательностью. Если уж леволибералы, то пусть будут как европейцы, которым равно милы хоть Ичкерия, хоть Хезболла - лишь бы пнуть ненавистную военщину. Если уж государственники и националисты, то такие, которые признают и за другими нациями право на безопасность. Особенно если эти нации, подобно Израилю, нам ничего плохого не сделали. Мерьте какой угодно меркой, но только единой - без шизофрении. 
Подвижки в этом смысле пошли. Леволибералы еще не сочувствуют Хезболле, но уже и не приветствуют израильскую военщину. Наши державники еще не поют осанну Цахалу, но уже не разворачивают мощную борьбу за мир. Сразу ждать чего-то большего было бы трудно, но признаки излечения от шизофрении наблюдаются. Процесс будет постепенный, чтобы встать с головы на ноги, нужны промежуточные телодвижения, но лучше так, чем никак. Лучше и нам, и Израилю.  
16:15 25.07.06

----------


## DDT

> hell *uck  ! Israel was founded by some given lands,there wasn't a country called Israel in near future,they didn't even need to fight for land or their country as they had already got the power with the help of USA.I call Israel as ''The little USA'',but Israel is just a puppet country...

 There wasn't a country of Jordan either and it was drawn up at the same time as Israel. As a matter of a fact most of the countries in the  Middle ERast had there lines drawn up for them. Biut I don't see any Arabs trying to get rid of Jordan.
Wake up man, this is not about land ....it is about religion.

----------


## Орчун

Yup right,gotcha.you also said that man  

> As a matter of a fact most of the countries in the Middle ERast had there lines drawn up for them.

 Especially this was what i was trying say

----------


## Mordan

usual hippie comments... they are boring
I cry ... and pray for peace... Israel kills more civillians, they are evil... blah blah blah. uneducated people. 
has anyone played Sid Meiers Civilizations? (I , II or III)

----------


## Mordan

I don't why? But all this crying and whining reminds me of all those articles saying that heat is killing people here Europe. Jeez so what? I mean who gives a flying f***? 
oh well probably "consciousness for the masses", I guess. it is sad that here kids and sadly parents, don't have enough common sense to understand that when weather is hot you are supposd to drink more water.

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

> I don't why? But all this crying and whining reminds me of all those articles saying that heat is killing people here Europe. Jeez so what? I mean who gives a flying f***? 
> oh well probably "consciousness for the masses", I guess. it is sad that here kids and sadly parents, don't have enough common sense to understand that when weather is hot you are supposd to drink more water.

 Why is it sad if you don't give a flying f***?  ::   
Time to be a little less selfish, Mordanchik!

----------


## zomby_pengy

well of course all the muslims want to do is kill anyone who isn't muslim...its written as a command in their koran(or however you spell that). They beleive that if they kill everyone who isn't muslim, and better yet, 'martyr' yourself by commiting suicide in order to take others' lives, you get rewards from Allah. like 10 wives or something like that...

----------


## basurero

> in their koran(or however you spell that)

  

> like 10 wives or something like that...

 Exactly. You know nothing about Islam so don't open your mouth. 
Christianity is no better than Islam.

----------


## zomby_pengy

im just stating a fact, i've read the koran before. all im saying is what it says. 
I didn't say anything is better than anything.

----------


## DDT

> in their koran(or however you spell that)
> 			
> 		  [quote:3bo2smtl] like 10 wives or something like that...

 Exactly. You know nothing about Islam so don't open your mouth. 
Christianity is no better than Islam.[/quote:3bo2smtl]
And it doesn't sound like you know anything about Christianity. 
We can argue all day long about what bad things Christians did and what bad things Muslims did, so I think that it is better to go straight to the source  and judge the actions of Jesus against Mohammed.  *Jesus: * 
Never had an army.
Never killed anyone.
Never ordered anyone to kill anyone.
Never stole anything.
Never raped anyone. 
Never told his deciples it was ok to rape anyone.
Never was a child molestor. *Said*, "Treat people the manner that you would want them to treat you." 
"Love your enemies."   *Mohammed:*
Built a great army.
Went on about 20 campaigns of war, killing and mutilating as he went.
Ordered the death of hundred or thousands of prisoners. (900 Jews in one place)
Stole and looted camel trains or caravans to finance his first expeditions.
Raped women after first hacking the husbands into pieces in front of them.
Told his warriors that Allah said it was OK for them to rape hunreds captive women as long as they didn't ejaculate in them.
Had sex with an 8 or 9 year old girl who still played her dolls, when he was 56 years old. Her name was Aisha. *Said:*
Christians and Jews are nothing more than pigs and apes. Search them out ant kill them where ever you find them.   
So before you go equating Christianity with  Islam and then "throwing the baby out with the bath water" I suggest you dig quite a bit deeper than where ever you have been digging.

----------


## basurero

Лол, ок ты прав. 
Религия просто меня раздражает и мне охота было оскорбить кого-нибудь..... Я знал, что кто-то выругает меня за то, что я написал....    ::

----------


## DDT

> Я знал, что кто-то меня выругал бы за то, что я написал....

 Конечно! Это точно, поскольку как этот форум должен  использоваться. ::  
(er.......you might need to correct that!)

----------


## Chuvak

> Я знал, что кто-нибудь меня выругал бы за то, что я написал....
> 			
> 		  Конечно! Это точно, поскольку так этот форум и должен  использоваться!!!. 
> (er.......you might need to correct that!)

----------


## basurero

Спасибо. Правилен ли следующий вариант? 
Я знал, что кто-нибудь меня* выругает* за то, что я написал....

----------


## Chuvak

> Спасибо. Правилен ли следующий вариант? 
> Я знал, что кто-нибудь меня* выругает* за то, что я написал....

 Absolutely right !!!   ::

----------


## basurero

> Originally Posted by basurero  Спасибо. Правилен ли следующий вариант? 
> Я знал, что кто-нибудь меня* выругает* за то, что я написал....   Absolutely right !!!

 Элвис Жив!

----------


## Mordan

> Why is it sad if you don't give a flying f***?   
> Time to be a little less selfish, Mordanchik!

 it is sad because 
1) it shows people are uneducated and are lacking common sense
2) the news feed themselves on emotional stuff, bad events, negative energy. I hate it. It does not bring good waves and helps making this world like it is today.

----------


## Kamion

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  
> Why is it sad if you don't give a flying f***?   
> Time to be a little less selfish, Mordanchik!   it is sad because 
> 1) it shows people are uneducated and are lacking common sense
> 2) the news feed themselves on emotional stuff, bad events, negative energy. I hate it. It does not bring good waves and helps making this world like it is today.

 But if the media informs the public that there are many heat-related deaths at the moment, than people can exercise extra caution. You can

----------


## Kamion

Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing to express my deepest concern about the killing of more than 300 civilian Lebanese, including dozens of children, by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon in the week since 12 July. Hundreds of other civilians have been injured during those attacks as well.
During their air strikes, the Israeli forces have also damaged civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon. They have deliberately targeted and destroyed dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities.  *Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes*, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut.  Such attacks are a blatant breach of international humanitarian law and *some amount to war crimes*. 
I took this from Amnesty International

----------


## Alware

[quote=Kamion]Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing to express my deepest concern about the killing of more than 300 civilian Lebanese, including dozens of children, by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon in the week since 12 July. Hundreds of other civilians have been injured during those attacks as well.
During their air strikes, the Israeli forces have also damaged civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon. They have deliberately targeted and destroyed dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities.  *Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes*, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut.  Such attacks are a blatant breach of international humanitarian law and *some amount to war crimes*. 
I took this from Amnesty International

----------


## Lampada

Интересно, как бы Швеция или Турция реагировали на военное нападение с соседней страны и на призывы к их уничтожению?

----------


## Alware

> Интересно, как бы Швеция или Турция реагировали на военное нападение с соседней страны и на призывы к их уничтожению?

 Аналогия не совсем уместна. Почему например ты оправдываешь действия Израиля, а представители мусульманского мира и европы их осуждают? Это не вопрос того что "на самом деле" и не того что правильно а что нет. А вопрос самодентификации высказывающегося ИМХО.

----------


## Kamion

[quote=Alware][quote=Kamion]Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing to express my deepest concern about the killing of more than 300 civilian Lebanese, including dozens of children, by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon in the week since 12 July. Hundreds of other civilians have been injured during those attacks as well.
During their air strikes, the Israeli forces have also damaged civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon. They have deliberately targeted and destroyed dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities.  *Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes*, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut.  Such attacks are a blatant breach of international humanitarian law and *some amount to war crimes*. 
I took this from Amnesty International

----------


## Lampada

> Originally Posted by Lampada  Интересно, как бы Швеция или Турция реагировали на военное нападение с соседней страны и на призывы к их уничтожению?   Аналогия не совсем уместна. Почему например ты оправдываешь действия Израиля, а представители мусульманского мира и европы их осуждают? Это не вопрос того что "на самом деле" и не того что правильно а что нет. А вопрос самодентификации высказывающегося ИМХО.

 Уже и спросить нельзя. 
Кстати, ты хочешь сказать, что объективным в данной теме быть нельзя?
"самодентификация"?  Опять новое слово.

----------


## voshliya

[quote=Kamion][quote=Alware][quote=Kamion]Dear Prime Minister,
I am writing to express my deepest concern about the killing of more than 300 civilian Lebanese, including dozens of children, by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon in the week since 12 July. Hundreds of other civilians have been injured during those attacks as well.
During their air strikes, the Israeli forces have also damaged civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon. They have deliberately targeted and destroyed dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities.  *Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes*, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut.  Such attacks are a blatant breach of international humanitarian law and *some amount to war crimes*. 
I took this from Amnesty International

----------


## prospector

> And God (fitting expression), so many americans here are unbelievably brainwashed.

 ...and most seem to think that Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, al-Qaeda, Syria etc. are totally indistinguishable from each other and part of one uniform Muslim conspiracy against the West. When the reality is a lot more complex. For example, al-Qaeda are a Wahhabist movement who view Shias with contempt and see them as not being real Muslims. That's why Zarqawi and the foreign fighters in Iraq target car bombs at Shia civilians in an attempt to provoke outright civil war in the country. Hezbollah is a Shia organisation and has no admiration for or connection with al-Qaeda. Even Hamas has no real links with al-Qaeda and is solely focused on its fight against Israel while al-Qaeda has little real interest in the Palestinian cause, being more concerned with the overthrow of pro-Western governments in the rest of the Middle East. 
Just allowing Israel to bash Hezbollah isn't necessarily going to make things any better, in fact there's a grave risk it will make matters much worse. Lebanon is a fragile multiethnic society that is still recovering from years of civil war and could fall apart again in the face of this onslaught, creating another failed state for al-Qaeda fighters to operate in. Also perhaps Bush and his pals should stop and think how the Shias in Iraq feel about seeing their brothers in Lebanon bombed relentlessly by Israel day after day (now with American supplied bunker busting bombs). The Sunni population is already in revolt at the American presence there, how much worse will it be for American soldiers on the ground if the Shias turn against them too?

----------


## DDT

> That is precisely the argument I dislike the most.

 That's because this is where you lose the argument            

> ...and most seem to think that Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, al-Qaeda, Syria etc. are totally indistinguishable from each other and part of one uniform Muslim conspiracy against the West. When the reality is a lot more complex.

 It doesn't really matter about their personal squabbles with each other!!
They are all united in their cause to destroy Israel
their hate for USA and their love for  the man Mohammed who raped his enemies wives. And that pretty mush somes up the kind of people you are spending valualble time defending.     

> Just allowing Israel to bash Hezbollah isn't necessarily going to make things any better,

 Er......yes it is.  They won't be able to launch rockets into Israel from South Lebabnon anymore.Duh!

----------


## detail

Hazbollah is the same Basayev, Raduyev, Dudayev. They must be dead.

----------


## prospector

> Originally Posted by prospector  ...and most seem to think that Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, al-Qaeda, Syria etc. are totally indistinguishable from each other and part of one uniform Muslim conspiracy against the West. When the reality is a lot more complex.   It doesn't really matter about their personal squabbles with each other!!
> They are all united in their cause to destroy Israel
> their hate for USA and their love for  the man Mohammed who raped his enemies wives. And that pretty mush somes up the kind of people you are spending valualble time defending.

 You seem a little confused, I'm not defending the actions of any of these groups, just seeking to explain the relationships and the complexity of the situation. Perhaps, if someone had explained the realities of the situation in the Middle East to Bush and his supporters they mightn't have blundered into Iraq and made such a right royal mess of it all. (That's a hell of a big 'if' though!)   

> Originally Posted by prospector  Just allowing Israel to bash Hezbollah isn't necessarily going to make things any better,   Er......yes it is.  They won't be able to launch rockets into Israel from South Lebabnon anymore.Duh!

 The rockets are still flying over, if things were as simple as you suggest then why didn't Israel's massive campaigns in Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 not succeed in bringing peace and security to Israel's northern border? And if Israel couldn't crush Hezbollah in the 90s, what's changed now that would allow them to do it? 
In any case, Israel's response goes way beyond just attacking rocket launching sites and stockpiles, the wholesale destruction of Lebanon's infrastructure is threatening the very stability of the country, that's not going to make Israel any more secure. 
Also, why did Israel agree to a prisoner swap with Hezbollah before? This set a precedent for this activity. If Israel refused such an arrangement then, it might make her insistence on no negotiations now a little easier to understand.

----------


## Орчун

First off all we should seperate muslims from hezbollah.Hezbollah is on the extreme point.I'm a muslim,and my perception of Islam is totally different from them.And also most of muslims in Turkey agree with me.

----------


## Mordan

[quote=Kamion] 

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  
> Why is it sad if you don't give a flying f***?   
> Time to be a little less selfish, Mordanchik!   it is sad because 
> 1) it shows people are uneducated and are lacking common sense
> 2) the news feed themselves on emotional stuff, bad events, negative energy. I hate it. It does not bring good waves and helps making this world like it is today.

 But if the media informs the public that there are many heat-related deaths at the moment, than people can exercise extra caution. You can

----------


## Kim_2320

> Hundreds of innocent people die in both countries but it seems that world leaders are not going to stop their geopolitical games and will continue that cruel bloodshed.  
> With whom are you? Whould be interesting to know all kinds of opinion.

 There really should be change in the Middle East. I'm tired of hearing about bombings and shootings happening on the news. Why couldn't everyone just live in peace? It's way easier. But no, people are too greedy and selfish to realize it.

----------


## ST

today there was a interesting article at lenta.ru..."ixbt.com was hacked by Arabian hackers" http://www.lenta.ru/news/2006/07/28/hack/
But later, owners of "ixbt" said, what "it was only joke"...i`m not sure in it, thought...   ::

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by SummerKiss  Hundreds of innocent people die in both countries but it seems that world leaders are not going to stop their geopolitical games and will continue that cruel bloodshed.  
> With whom are you? Whould be interesting to know all kinds of opinion.   There really should be change in the Middle East. I'm tired of hearing about bombings and shootings happening on the news. Why couldn't everyone just live in peace? It's way easier. But no, people are too greedy and selfish to realize it.

 Conflict is necessary to keep arabs in a "stone-age" without industry, technologies and power. Nobody in the West really wants solid and developed Middle East on the world map.
That's where Israel fits - that's the "splinter" in the ass unable to be torn out and nagging constantly. This it the instrument using which one coudld really keep arabs under control.
Policy is fun, isn't it?

----------


## SummerKiss

> Originally Posted by SummerKiss  Hundreds of innocent people die in both countries but it seems that world leaders are not going to stop their geopolitical games and will continue that cruel bloodshed.  
> With whom are you? Whould be interesting to know all kinds of opinion.   There really should be change in the Middle East. I'm tired of hearing about bombings and shootings happening on the news. Why couldn't everyone just live in peace? It's way easier. But no, people are too greedy and selfish to realize it.

 Because people are fighting not for those kidnapped soldiers and even not with terrorism, they are fighting for land and authority in the region.  
Moreover, if Israel wants just to protect itself from Hezbolluh terrorists why the hell they bombed the only one international airport, roads, bridges and fuel reservoirs that led to the ecological disaster in Lebanon!!???!!! 
And finally, this is not the question of religion. 40% of lebanese are chrisitian.

----------


## DDT

Oh Summerkiss, so pretty but knows nothing of war! 
 In war they bomb the all the things  that tie their enemy to their friends and supply lines. That means, in this case, bridges and roads that lead to Syria or reinforcements,  communications systems and yes, even airports.  
Anyway, my dear, what did you come here to MR for? To start all this trouble.....Hmmm? Perhaps you are a spy sent by another Russian language site in order to stir up trouble with the peaceful citizens of MasterRussian......hmmm.!!!????  ::  
I mean i haven't seen * her* make a post related to Russian language yet!!!! .......oh well!

----------


## prospector

> 300 people died drowning on the beaches of France since June. (http://www.lefigaro.fr/france/20060728. ... etant.html) . Where is the public outcry for this horrible statistic? Why don't you care for those poor people who died a terrible death drowning the salty water??? 
> It is not that I don't care about people. I'm trying to give you the intuition to understand why I don't care.

 There's nothing revelatory about this observation. Tens of thousands of people die in car accidents every year, people are murdered, raped and tortured every day somewhere in the world. Just because we know this, is no justification for becoming desensitized or indifferent to images or reports of human suffering in places like Lebanon, or elsewhere. Yes, human life is cheap in this world, it's snuffed out without a thought every minute of every day but if we become totally indifferent to it, then we cease to be fully human and become more like the leaders and governments that perpetuate these conflicts for their own selfish ends. It should stop us from becoming overemotional or too carried away with our response and maintain a perspective on things, but not indifferent and unmoved.   

> Lebaneses played with fire harboring terrorists. Now it is payback time.

 Lebanon has only recently escaped the control of Syria and still remains in its shadow to a large degree. It's also an ethnically diverse country. The Lebanese army is weaker and less well-equipped than Hezbollah. To think you can just bomb Lebanon into taking on Hezbollah is crazy. You're more likely to boost support for them (while the bombing campaign is in progress anyway). If this was a more homogeneous and powerful state like Egypt that was harbouring Hezbollah, then perhaps Israel's approach to the conflict might make a bit more sense.

----------


## basurero

В том случае, если человек, которого ты ненавидишь, украл у тебя перо, ты избил бы его насмерть?   

> I mean i haven't seen make a post related to Russian launguae yet!!!! .......oh well!

 Как россияне относятся к этой теме?

----------


## mashamania

Relax, DDT. The Isreali-Lebanon conflict is all over the news. It's only natural the topic would come up eventually. I don't think SummerKiss came to start trouble, especially with such a passive name. She did say she was looking to practice her English, and talking about what's happening on the news is good practice. 
Of course, casualties are part of war, but one can also be excessive in war and over-react, especially the one with all the modern weapons, as they can do far more harm with less effort. If a criminal takes a civilian hostage, you shouldn't kill the civilian along with the criminal just to get the criminal. Of course, that's easier said than done, especially in war. 
Many Lebanese are Christian, yes. But Hezbollah is a militant Islamic group. I think it is about land and religion. In the Middle East, it's difficult to set aside religion as a major factor for many things.

----------


## Mordan

> passive name

 SummerKiss?   ::   
for me this name only smells trouble   ::

----------


## uno

> Because people are fighting not for those kidnapped soldiers and even not with terrorism, they are fighting for land and authority in the region.

 Please oh please don't say it's about oil.   ::   Somebody on bbcrussian.com got their comment posted on the main site concerning this conflict that as long as there is oil in the middle east there will be war. You can't compare this situation with the IRAQ Conflict Arguments. It's an apple and an orange of a difference. 
Oh and Israel's retaliation is not just for these 2 soldiers, it's more or less for years of continued terrorist attacks that seem to happen every week over a period of many years. Anyone want to count up all the dead innocent civilians there? 
And please don't say that Israel is interested in conquering Lebanon's territory. Also, keep in mind that Israel in the past has forced its own citizens out of large territories of land in a gesture for peace.

----------


## DDT

This guy knows the truth. He was a PLO Terrorist but has since become an advocate for Israel.   http://www.shoebat.com/bio.php  

> In 1993, Walid studied the Tanach (Jewish Bible) in a challenge to convert his wife to Islam. Six months later, after intense study, Walid realized that everything he had been taught about Jews was a lie. Convinced he was on the side of evil, he became an advocate for his former enemy.

----------


## Alware

> Originally Posted by Alware        Originally Posted by Lampada  Интересно, как бы Швеция или Турция реагировали на военное нападение с соседней страны и на призывы к их уничтожению?   Аналогия не совсем уместна. Почему например ты оправдываешь действия Израиля, а представители мусульманского мира и европы их осуждают? Это не вопрос того что "на самом деле" и не того что правильно а что нет. А вопрос самодентификации высказывающегося ИМХО.   Уже и спросить нельзя. 
> Кстати, ты хочешь сказать, что объективным в данной теме быть нельзя?
> "самодентификация"?  Опять новое слово.

 Объективным быть можно. Но если кто-то говорит, что он "За Израиль" или "За Ливан", то объективизма здесь нет никакого. 
самоидентификация Sorry for that typo  ::

----------


## DDT

The media only seems to want to tell The Arab side of the story these days. It seems that the younger a person is the more he or she hates Israel. 
Let’s not forget at this time that almost one million Jews  were expelled from Arab countries in 1948.  Watch the trailer. http://www.shoebat.com/trailer_exodus.php   http://www.pierrerehov.com/exodus.htm

----------


## Dogboy182

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14082298/ 
Now lets quote a song by adam and dave 
"What I like about jews, they're real cool guys. Abused by the Germans and the Romans but they took it in stride! Yea!" 
Ok that was a joke, but the matter at hand here Isn't. It seems like most other countries know how to forgive and forget, But radical islam can't and won't. Thats why when this sh*t happens, it has to be stopped at its roots. Nothing against the people and the innocent citizens of Muslim countries. I go to school everyday and learn from some pretty cool people who are from Afghanistan. 2 are doctors, many other have worked for the red cross, or BBC or CNN. They watch "Married with children" and quote Seinfeld. One even had family killed by the taliban and was arrested and shot before escaping and comming here to America. 
Nobody has anything personal against the Ismlamic fath, its radicals in general. It sucks that innocent people on both sides, in both Lebenon and Isreal have to die. But if its to get people like this guy and thousands others off the streets, or killed. Then its what has to be done. It wont stop unless somebody stops it. 
Once again, its not the Jews, or the Buddhists, or Christians (as scary as they are) who are indescrimanantly killing innocent people, its the radicam muslims and countries who support them need to be gone.

----------


## SummerKiss

[/quote]Anyway, my dear, what did you come here to MR for? To start all this trouble.....Hmmm? Perhaps you are a spy sent by another Russian language site in order to stir up trouble with the peaceful citizens of MasterRussian......hmmm.!!!????  ::  
I mean i haven't seen * her* make a post related to Russian language yet!!!! .......oh well![/quote] 
I came here to improve my english and to discuss the topics which I am interested in. I wanted to know the opinion of other people here and I did it. If you dont want to take part in "all this trouble" just dont answer. And if you look better you'll find my other topics.

----------


## Dogboy182

You english is pretty good =)

----------


## Alware

Догбой, а кому принадлежит эта бандитская рожа на твоём аватаре?  ::   ::   ::   ::

----------


## SummerKiss

> Originally Posted by basurero     
> 			
> 				 in their koran(or however you spell that)
> 			
> 		  [quote:324iesdl] like 10 wives or something like that...   Exactly. You know nothing about Islam so don't open your mouth. 
> Christianity is no better than Islam.

 And it doesn't sound like you know anything about Christianity. 
We can argue all day long about what bad things Christians did and what bad things Muslims did, so I think that it is better to go straight to the source  and judge the actions of Jesus against Mohammed.  *Jesus: * 
Never had an army.
Never killed anyone.
Never ordered anyone to kill anyone.
Never stole anything.
Never raped anyone. 
Never told his deciples it was ok to rape anyone.
Never was a child molestor. *Said*, "Treat people the manner that you would want them to treat you." 
"Love your enemies."   *Mohammed:*
Built a great army.
Went on about 20 campaigns of war, killing and mutilating as he went.
Ordered the death of hundred or thousands of prisoners. (900 Jews in one place)
Stole and looted camel trains or caravans to finance his first expeditions.
Raped women after first hacking the husbands into pieces in front of them.
Told his warriors that Allah said it was OK for them to rape hunreds captive women as long as they didn't ejaculate in them.
Had sex with an 8 or 9 year old girl who still played her dolls, when he was 56 years old. Her name was Aisha. *Said:*
Christians and Jews are nothing more than pigs and apes. Search them out ant kill them where ever you find them.   
So before you go equating Christianity with  Islam and then "throwing the baby out with the bath water" I suggest you dig quite a bit deeper than where ever you have been digging.[/quote:324iesdl] 
Where did you read all that about muhammed??? It seems to be a special Karan.

----------


## SummerKiss

> You english is pretty good =)

   ::  спасибо

----------


## Dogboy182

your *   ::   ::   :P  oops.   

> Догбой, а кому принадлежит эта бандитская рожа на твоём аватаре

 Well its mine ofcourse! On one of my many vacations to the steppes of kazakhstan.

----------


## Alware

> your *     :P  oops.     
> 			
> 				Догбой, а кому принадлежит эта бандитская рожа на твоём аватаре
> 			
> 		  Well its mine ofcourse! On one of my many vacations to the steppes of kazakhstan.

 Nice pic!
Next time you are  there take a pic of medeo.

----------


## basurero

What does здрасте mean in your signature?

----------


## adoc

> Как россияне относятся к этой теме?

 It is so popular, it makes me regret that I am not an arms dealer.

----------


## Dogboy182

> What does здрасте mean in your signature?

 
I dont even know if its a real word. Its just a shorter, (cooler) more impolite way to say Здраствуйте (did i mention easier?). 
Ive only ever really heard it in songs, or teenagers talking. But hey, songs, and teenagers are cool. So, i guess its cool. 
Здрасте здрасте, я ваш догбой
поверьте мне, я ж не голубой...

----------


## Alware

> Originally Posted by basurero  What does здрасте mean in your signature?   
> I dont even know if its a real word. Its just a shorter, (cooler) more impolite way to say Здраствуйте (did i mention easier?). 
> Ive only ever really heard it in songs, or teenagers talking. But hey, songs, and teenagers are cool. So, i guess its cool. 
> Здрасте здрасте, я ваш догбой
> поверьте мне, я ж не голубой...

 he he he  ::   
Ну, здрасте, приехали!!!

----------


## Dogboy182

hey i guess alware says it too! 
So i was right after all, cool people say it.  ::   
Жаль что уехал так рано из радного казахстана...
я шас живу в маленькой области, которая называется "Вобля". 
Люди всегда смеются надо мной, когда узнавают я и откуда... Но я говорю в ответ... "Ну что ***". 
Its just a river   ::

----------


## prospector

> And please don't say that Israel is interested in conquering Lebanon's territory. Also, keep in mind that Israel in the past has forced its own citizens out of large territories of land in a gesture for peace.

 Well, I don't think Gaza counts as a large territory. With its 1.5 million or so Palestinian inhabitants, it was total fantasy to think that Israeli settlement there could ever achieve anything (not unless the long term intention was to expel the existing population into Egypt or something like that). So I assume you're talking about the Sinai area. Well, that did secure peace with Egypt and proves that a "land for peace" deal can work, and remember Egypt was Israel's greatest enemy in earlier wars. If someone suggested in the 1950s or 60s that Egypt would accept Israel's existence, they would probably have been dismissed as mad. 
As regards Lebanon, I don't think anyone is suggesting Israel wants to conquer its territory but clearly Israel has a different attitude to the West Bank. The course of the wall and the expansion of settlements prove that. And ultimately all these conflicts are interconnected, An outbreak of violence on one front can trigger clashes on another. There has to be a comprehensive peace deal for the Middle East that addresses all outstanding issues, including Syria, Lebanon and the Palestinians. 
Israel might say that they have no partner to negotiate with, and it's true that while Hamas refuses to accept the existence of Israel and to renounce violence there is little hope of peace. But Israel's determination to continue building settlements and annexing land on the West Bank is also a huge obstacle to agreement. Locking up 2.5 million Palestinians behind walls into pockets of land in the West Bank, enveloping them inside the state of Israel but without any voice in that state is insane. It's also immoral and totally unworkable.  
And lastly, you don't have to expand settlements and deny Palestinians their own state in order to keep Israel secure. Any agreement could still see Israeli forces along the Jordan valley to ensure no weapons or rockets got through to those opposed to the peace.

----------


## TATY

I think the reason why the wall makes inroads into the West Bank is just to keep Jewish settlements on the Israeli side of the wall. Israel is small, yes, but it has lots of space, it is nowhere near full. Israel doesn't currently have any need for more land. The only reason it would want to take extra land is for buffer zones. As soon as Israel pulled out of Gaza, millitants started firing rockets out into Israel.  
The original plan the British came up with was to divide Palestine 50-50 between the Jews and Arabs, with Jerusalem as a UN adiminstered multi-faith city. The Jews agreed, but the Arabs said they wanted all or nothing.  
Also, we must remember that after the Arabs invaded Israel from all sides in the 60s, Israel pushed them all back and captured huge amounts of land (like the Sinai Peninsula which is bigger than Israel itself). But Israel gave it all back (except the Golan heights, which was to act as a buffer zone between Israel and Syria).  
I do not particularly agree with what Israel is doing right now, but Israel is in a difficult and unique position. It is surrounded by countries that hate it and want it destroyed. Eygpt officially does not, but the people of Eygpt do. If Israel seems weak to countries like Iran and Syria, they'll try and invade or bomb it. What Israel is doing at the moment is sending a message to Iran, Syria, and everyone else in the region, that they don't take no sh*t from anyone. Of course, thousands of civillians on both sides have take the direct consequences.

----------


## DDT

> Where did you read all that about muhammed??? It seems to be a special Karan.

 Well my little possum, one can find everything one wants about Koran, Hadith and Mohammed here:- http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/islam.htm http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/index.html http://www.prophetofdoom.net/ http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index. ... Q&id_cat=3

----------


## Kamion

> Originally Posted by Kamion  
> That is precisely the argument I dislike the most.   That's because this is where you lose the argument

 You

----------


## DDT

Well if you think about it Kamion, there really are no rules in war. War is the proof that, on Earth, there are no  enforcable rules. 
It is only in recent history that anyone gives a hoot about "collateral damage". Take WWII for example. Civilian deaths were more or less ignored. ie Bombing of London, Dresden, Berlin, Pearl Harbour, Darwin, Hiroshima.  
Perhaps it could even be said that when civilians know that they will get killed too, along with their armies, they will be less likely to start a war in the first place!

----------


## Vladi

No problem for me: with the victim and against the opressor. Yesterderday the opressor was Hitler, against Hitler. Nobody wants to know which was the behaviour  of every country towards the Jews when Hitler was in the power (USA, Switzerland, as well as many other countries have reasons for not speaking about it); after WWII they accord (out of their bad conscience) being splendid giving them Palestine, why not Arizona, Baden-Wurtenberg; Sicily or Scotland ?. It is easy make charity with other's pocket. From then on the victim becames executioner. And every day more. 
One thing is Jewish people and other completely different is the State of Israel, as well as a grandfather can be a very honest person and the grandson a delinquent, and v.v. As for 'the terrorist'; it is a word who indicates a delinquent if he loses and a hero if he wins. Terrorist is whoever fights against me. Terrorist where called in their era and by the occupant, of course, the americans who opposed with weapons to the presence of Spanish power in America, now they are heroes; the Spaniards who opposed to the presence of Napoleon in Spain, now they are heroes ; the Jews who opposed to the presence of British power in Palestine,  now they are heroes. the French who opposed to presence of German troops in France; now they are heroes. the  Russians who fighted in civil dress against occupier; etc, etc.

----------


## Kim_2320

> Originally Posted by Kim_2320        Originally Posted by SummerKiss  Hundreds of innocent people die in both countries but it seems that world leaders are not going to stop their geopolitical games and will continue that cruel bloodshed.  
> With whom are you? Whould be interesting to know all kinds of opinion.   There really should be change in the Middle East. I'm tired of hearing about bombings and shootings happening on the news. Why couldn't everyone just live in peace? It's way easier. But no, people are too greedy and selfish to realize it.   Because people are fighting not for those kidnapped soldiers and even not with terrorism, they are fighting for land and authority in the region.  
> Moreover, if Israel wants just to protect itself from Hezbolluh terrorists why the hell they bombed the only one international airport, roads, bridges and fuel reservoirs that led to the ecological disaster in Lebanon!!???!!! 
> And finally, this is not the question of religion. 40% of lebanese are chrisitian.

 Yeah, maybe you're right. But I'm mostly talking about the US wars.

----------


## TATY

> No problem for me: with the victim and against the opressor. Yesterderday the opressor was Hitler, against Hitler. Nobody wants to know which was the behaviour  of every country towards the Jews when Hitler was in the power (USA, Switzerland, as well as many other countries have reasons for not speaking about it); after WWII they accord (out of their bad conscience) being splendid giving them Palestine, why not Arizona, Baden-Wurtenberg; Sicily or Scotland ?. It is easy make charity with other's pocket. From then on the victim becames executioner. And every day more. 
> One thing is Jewish people and other completely different is the State of Israel, as well as a grandfather can be a very honest person and the grandson a delinquent, and v.v. As for 'the terrorist'; it is a word who indicates a delinquent if he loses and a hero if he wins. Terrorist is whoever fights against me. Terrorist where called in their era and by the occupant, of course, the americans who opposed with weapons to the presence of Spanish power in America, now they are heroes; the Spaniards who opposed to the presence of Napoleon in Spain, now they are heroes ; the Jews who opposed to the presence of British power in Palestine,  now they are heroes. the French who opposed to presence of German troops in France; now they are heroes. the  Russians who fighted in civil dress against occupier; etc, etc.

 Jews used to live and at the time lived in the area that became Israel. There was once a Jewish civilisation there. So saying "Why not give them land in Europe or America" doesn't really work. Also Israel is a very small piece of land with very few natural resources, (no oil etc.) 
The Arabs don't really care about the land itself, what they care about is Jews living in there region. It's not because of what Israel is doing in the Gaza Strip or West Bank, or what it is doing in Lebannon now. All they care about is that they are Jews and in "their region", and they want them out. As soon as the State of Israel was declared the Arab countries invaded.

----------


## Ramil

> Terrorist is whoever fights against me. Terrorist where called in their era and by the occupant, of course, the americans who opposed with weapons to the presence of Spanish power in America, now they are heroes; the Spaniards who opposed to the presence of Napoleon in Spain, now they are heroes ; the Jews who opposed to the presence of British power in Palestine,  now they are heroes. the French who opposed to presence of German troops in France; now they are heroes. the  Russians who fighted in civil dress against occupier; etc, etc.

 You're being wrong in definition of terrorism.
It's the form of POWER based on POLITICAL violence. The word Terror means fear. It is the policy of inspiring fear in people to achieve your goals. That needs to be distinguished from military action which goal is to eliminate enemy activities. Terrorists bombs schools and bus stops, but rocket attacks of Hezbollah resembles more an aggression that terrorism. Indeed the attacks come from another country. 
Neither terrorism label can be sticked on Israel for it's just strikes back. The conflict has nothing to do with terrorism. It's just a simple war.

----------


## TATY

> Originally Posted by Vladi  Terrorist is whoever fights against me. Terrorist where called in their era and by the occupant, of course, the americans who opposed with weapons to the presence of Spanish power in America, now they are heroes; the Spaniards who opposed to the presence of Napoleon in Spain, now they are heroes ; the Jews who opposed to the presence of British power in Palestine,  now they are heroes. the French who opposed to presence of German troops in France; now they are heroes. the  Russians who fighted in civil dress against occupier; etc, etc.   You're being wrong in definition of terrorism.
> It's the form of POWER based on POLITICAL violence. The word Terror means fear. It is the policy of inspiring fear in people to achieve your goals. That needs to be distinguished from military action which goal is to eliminate enemy activities. Terrorists bombs schools and bus stops, but rocket attacks of Hezbollah resembles more an aggression that terrorism. Indeed the attacks come from another country. 
> Neither terrorism label can be sticked on Israel for it's just strikes back. The conflict has nothing to do with terrorism. It's just a simple war.

 I am not so sure. 
Israel is striking millitary targets. The problem is Hizbullah is woven into Lebanese society, so to hit Hizbullah, you have to hit residential areas. 
Hizbullah on the other hand are just trying to kill Israeli civillians by firing rockets into Israeli towns and cities. 
Also, Hizbullah is not acting on behalf of Lebannon officially, and is therefore considered to be carrying out terrorist actions.

----------


## prospector

> I think the reason why the wall makes inroads into the West Bank is just to keep Jewish settlements on the Israeli side of the wall. Israel is small, yes, but it has lots of space, it is nowhere near full. Israel doesn't currently have any need for more land. The only reason it would want to take extra land is for buffer zones.

 Yes, it's hard to see why Israel needs to develop so many new communities in a disputed area when there's plenty of land within Israel itself. I think there's more to it than just buffer zones though. There is a strong ideologically driven movement within Israel that sees all of the West Bank as rightfully belonging to the Jewish state. It has pushed for and succeeded in establishing numerous settlements throughout the West Bank since that territory was captured in the 1967 war. These settlements necessitate a significant military presence to protect them and result in a major impact on Palestinian life through checkpoints, delays and travel restrictions etc. This only fuels more resentment and bitterness towards the Israeli presence among Palestinians. Also, the settlers are often very hardline and extreme in their views and some have carried out attacks on Palestinian civilians in the past. All in all, it doesn't seem like a good policy for promoting peace and harmony given past history!    

> As soon as Israel pulled out of Gaza, millitants started firing rockets out into Israel.

 Yes, this was wrong and doesn't help the Palestinian cause one bit. But the shelling of civilians on a beach in northern Gaza a few weeks ago didn't help either. I believe that was the reason Hamas gave for breaking its truce.   

> The original plan the British came up with was to divide Palestine 50-50 between the Jews and Arabs, with Jerusalem as a UN adiminstered multi-faith city. The Jews agreed, but the Arabs said they wanted all or nothing.

 The Arabs should have accepted that but regardless of what should have happened in the past there's still an issue to be addressed in the present. Israel acquired not just more land in the 67 war but also a large Palestinian population. What is it going to do now? Keep them under military rule forever? Give them the same rights as Israeli Arabs and make them full citizens of Israel? or give them their own state? If they are to have their own state then it should be a real viable state and not some fragmented entity encircled by walls and Israeli settlements.   

> Also, we must remember that after the Arabs invaded Israel from all sides in the 60s, Israel pushed them all back and captured huge amounts of land (like the Sinai Peninsula which is bigger than Israel itself). But Israel gave it all back (except the Golan heights, which was to act as a buffer zone between Israel and Syria).

 Israel was willing to give up most of the Golan Heights for a peace deal with Syria but talks reached an impasse over control of the right bank of Lake Tiberias, I think. There are settlements in the Golan Heights as well but no large Arab population (most fled during the war).    

> I do not particularly agree with what Israel is doing right now, but Israel is in a difficult and unique position. It is surrounded by countries that hate it and want it destroyed. Eygpt officially does not, but the people of Eygpt do. If Israel seems weak to countries like Iran and Syria, they'll try and invade or bomb it. What Israel is doing at the moment is sending a message to Iran, Syria, and everyone else in the region, that they don't take no sh*t from anyone. Of course, thousands of civillians on both sides have take the direct consequences.

 Yeah, Israel is in a difficult position with people like Ahmadinejad saying the crazy things he does but it's not helping matters the way it treats the Palestinians. And every injustice that ensues from that unresolved conflict is beamed around the Arab world increasing the animosity towards Israel among the public in countries like Egypt. If the Palestinian issue had been settled the same time as the peace with Egypt, there mightn't be the daily diet of shootings and attacks that we have today and many moderate Muslims might have come to accept Israel. I mean there are Muslim Israeli citizens who live quite happily there so it shouldn't be impossible.

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by Vladi  Terrorist is whoever fights against me. Terrorist where called in their era and by the occupant, of course, the americans who opposed with weapons to the presence of Spanish power in America, now they are heroes; the Spaniards who opposed to the presence of Napoleon in Spain, now they are heroes ; the Jews who opposed to the presence of British power in Palestine,  now they are heroes. the French who opposed to presence of German troops in France; now they are heroes. the  Russians who fighted in civil dress against occupier; etc, etc.   You're being wrong in definition of terrorism.
> It's the form of POWER based on POLITICAL violence. The word Terror means fear. It is the policy of inspiring fear in people to achieve your goals. That needs to be distinguished from military action which goal is to eliminate enemy activities. Terrorists bombs schools and bus stops, but rocket attacks of Hezbollah resembles more an aggression that terrorism. Indeed the attacks come from another country. 
> Neither terrorism label can be sticked on Israel for it's just strikes back. The conflict has nothing to do with terrorism. It's just a simple war.   I am not so sure. 
> Israel is striking millitary targets. The problem is Hizbullah is woven into Lebanese society, so to hit Hizbullah, you have to hit residential areas. 
> Hizbullah on the other hand are just trying to kill Israeli civillians by firing rockets into Israeli towns and cities. 
> Also, Hizbullah is not acting on behalf of Lebannon officially, and is therefore considered to be carrying out terrorist actions.

 If government cannot control its land/population that means that its power is weak. 
The core of the discussion is WHY Hezbollah is marking civilian targets? To inspire fear in Jews? I really doubt it. Who pays them? And WHY?

----------


## TATY

Then why do you think Hizbullah is targetting civillians in Israel? I think they are hoping to kill people and as a by-product, instill fear into the rest of the population. A large proportion of the population ofnorthern Israel has fled to more southern parts.

----------


## DDT

> There is a strong ideologically driven movement within Israel that sees all of the West Bank as rightfully belonging to the Jewish state. It has pushed for and succeeded in establishing numerous settlements throughout the West Bank since that territory was captured in the 1967 war.

 Well Duhhh!  ::   ::    You probably are not old enough to remember but I am. *But* I remember when Israel first annexed West Bank and Gaza. It was clear from the beginning that these lands were to be permanent part of Israel. No one tried to hide this fact back then. The Israeli government was encouraging settlement of these lands and promised any settlers that they would get full backing of the government and that they would not be left high and dry at a future date by Israel giving the lands back to Arab control. 
At first the West Bank was never referred to as *occupied* but in recent years the media has begun using this word to describe West Bank and Gaza. The media has been biased against Israel increasingly since the late 70's and 80's. 
Unfortunately our beloved media has been trying to socially engineer us now for years and by the intolerance I have seen for Israel here, I see it is beginning to work. 
Israel seized the West Bank and Gaza in the legitimate defense of herself and under international laws of war, had the right to annex those lands. Just as the Allies did after WWII ....and every other war in history.

----------


## prospector

> There is a strong ideologically driven movement within Israel that sees all of the West Bank as rightfully belonging to the Jewish state. It has pushed for and succeeded in establishing numerous settlements throughout the West Bank since that territory was captured in the 1967 war.
> 			
> 		  Well Duhhh!     You probably are not old enough to remember but I am. *But* I remember when Israel first annexed West Bank and Gaza. It was clear from the beginning that these lands were to be permanent part of Israel. No one tried to hide this fact back then. The Israeli government was encouraging settlement of these lands and promised any settlers that they would get full backing of the government and that they would not be left high and dry at a future date by Israel giving the lands back to Arab control. 
> At first the West Bank was never referred to as *occupied* but in recent years the media has begun using this word to describe West Bank and Gaza. The media has been biased against Israel increasingly since the late 70's and 80's. 
> Unfortunately our beloved media has been trying to socially engineer us now for years and by the intolerance I have seen for Israel here, I see it is beginning to work. 
> Israel seized the West Bank and Gaza in the legitimate defense of herself and under international laws of war, had the right to annex those lands. Just as the Allies did after WWII ....and every other war in history.

 This is not just about land, it's about people. There are around 2.5 million Arabs who live in the West Bank. Should they be made citizens of Israel? Or would you perhaps prefer to see them driven out into Jordan to make way for total annexation and settlement of the territory by Israelis? Do you think it was a mistake not to drive them out of their homes at the time of the six day war? 
Oh, and by the way, Israel only ever formally annexed East Jerusalem. Olmert is only now talking about defining Israel's final borders.

----------


## basurero

> Originally Posted by basurero  What does здрасте mean in your signature?   
> I dont even know if its a real word. Its just a shorter, (cooler) more impolite way to say Здраствуйте (did i mention easier?). 
> Ive only ever really heard it in songs, or teenagers talking. But hey, songs, and teenagers are cool. So, i guess its cool. 
> Здрасте здрасте, я ваш догбой
> поверьте мне, я ж не голубой...

 You can also say "здравствуй" can't you? 
Is this cool too?

----------


## Dogboy182

> You can also say "здравствуй" can't you? 
> Is this cool too?

 Not really, no.

----------


## DDT

What about, G'day there chickies!"  
Is that cool! ......Huh? ::   
Coz if it is I'm gonna use it on this Russian chick that just emailed me today looking for a date or $250 bucks, whichever comes first!  
I wonder how she got my address because I never give that one out.

----------


## Plastic-Saint

For the most part I have to agree with DDT's postings in this thread... He is right completely about the media's trying to shift people's opinions on Israel... its kind of worrisome as I believe Israel should exist and I don't think Islam should be tolerated: radical or not. Especially not when "tolerating" it means bowing to every whim of the muslims. I hope Israel keeps going, this is the only way to teach the islamist groups out there what will happen if they push them... and if Iran or Syria get involved I'll be cheering as we join in with Israel and bomb them all flat! 
No hard feelings to any muslims out there~ but I think your religion is the fruit of a crazy man's mind and only serves to endanger civilization.   ::   
--Peace

----------


## Alware

> What about, G'day there chickies!"  
> Is that cool! ......Huh?  
> Coz if it is I'm gonna use it on this Russian chick that just emailed me today looking for a date or $250 bucks, whichever comes first!  
> I wonder how she got my address because I never give that one out.

 And how much are your first dates usually cost? Less than $250  ::  
What a spender!  ::   ::   ::

----------


## DDT

> And how much do your first dates usually cost? Less than $250  
> What a spender!

 They usually charge by the hour!  ::   ::   
Actually I think she/he is a going to try to scam me for visa money.   ::   ::   ::  
I think I will play this player!  ::

----------


## prospector

> For the most part I have to agree with DDT's postings in this thread...

 "For the most part":  what parts of what he's saying are you not entirely in agreement with? 
Just curious...   

> He is right completely about the media's trying to shift people's opinions on Israel... its kind of worrisome as I believe Israel should exist

 So because the media try to highlight some of the injustices that Israel perpetrates against non-Jews living in the West Bank, this must mean that they are opposed to your belief that Israel should exist? Are you incapable of grasping the concept that one may be critical of someone or something without wishing their destruction? It shouldn't be that difficult to get your head round.  
What precisely do you mean when you say?  

> I don't think Islam should be tolerated: radical or not.

   

> Especially not when "tolerating" it means bowing to every whim of the muslims.

 Please cite examples of where the USA and its allies have been "bowing to every whim of the Muslims"??   

> I hope Israel keeps going, this is the only way to teach the islamist groups out there what will happen if they push them... and if Iran or Syria get involved I'll be cheering as we join in with Israel and bomb them all flat!

 So you'll be cheering while civilians are getting blown to pieces. What a wonderful specimen of humanity you are! 
Of course, I shouldn't really be surprised seeing as you're living in a part of the world where fanatical support for Israel is an essential part of another screwed up belief system that sees Israel's existence as an essential condition for the second coming of Christ.   

> No hard feelings to any muslims out there~ but I think your religion is the fruit of a crazy man's mind and only serves to endanger civilization.

 Yeah, I'm sure they'll be mightily relieved to hear that  ::

----------


## basurero

> For the most part I have to agree with DDT's postings in this thread... He is right completely about the media's trying to shift people's opinions on Israel... its kind of worrisome as I believe Israel should exist and I don't think Islam should be tolerated: radical or not. Especially not when "tolerating" it means bowing to every whim of the muslims. I hope Israel keeps going, this is the only way to teach the islamist groups out there what will happen if they push them... and if Iran or Syria get involved I'll be cheering as we join in with Israel and bomb them all flat! 
> No hard feelings to any muslims out there~ but I think your religion is the fruit of a crazy man's mind and only serves to endanger civilization.    
> --Peace

 You should not be tolerated on this earth, in fact, you should be wiped off the map. I refuse to acknowledge your existence.

----------


## Dogboy182

So how about those mets?

----------


## DDT

Plastic-Saint wrote:  

> No hard feelings to any muslims out there~ but I think your religion is the fruit of a crazy man's mind and only serves to endanger civilization. Laughing

 You got that right! He suffered from bad headaches too, I can only guess what that was. He attracted all the loosers with  the rewards of being able to raid camel trains and rape captive women! You would have to be a total looser to join that religion as an adult. Unfortunately most Muslims are brainwashed into it as children and stay that way. 
But here is one that didn't, Wafa Sultan. This chick kicks ass!! (but of course Islamic nuts are trying to kill her now) http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/inter ... tner=rssus http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1050

----------


## TATY

There are Arabs who live in Israel proper (i.e. not in the West Bank or Gaza), by the way. 
Some hippy girl at university who is a member of the "Friends of Palestine Society" assured me that ALL Arabs in Israel lived in the West Bank or Gaza and under no circumstances were permitted to enter the main part of Israel. That's funny, because as well as the many thousands of Arabs living in Israel proper, I read an article on the BBC news site which had a Palestinian man saying Israeli road blocks were making it take him hours and hours to get to Tel-Aviv where he often did business. I.e., people are allowed to travel from the Palestinian territories out into Israel. Also, how does she think these suicide bombers manage to target places like Tel-Aviv? 
Of course there are strict regulations governing where Arabs can live and such and also governing the movements of residents from the Palestinian territories into Israel. 
And I hear and read lots of talk about the Arabs living in Gaza and West Bank being those who were kicked off their land by the Jews when Israel was formed. Yes probably most of them are. But there was also a large influx of Arabs from neighboring countries under the British mandate. The modern term Palestinian does not refer to a specific ethnicity. It is just an Arab who lives in Palestine. So, an Egyptian family who moved to Palestine in say 1940, and then after the formation of Israel moved into the Gaza strip, would be called Palestinian, and there descendants would be too. 
But also, I am quite uncomfortable with certain people's blatant Islamophobia. I must say I sort of agree with the points raised, but it isn't done in the most sensitive way. If you are born into a religion it is very difficult to see any fault in it. I believe all religion is a load of crap, but I wouldn't go up to a Christian and shout "JESUS WAS JUST A CARPENTER WHO TALKED TO MUCH AND WASN'T EVEN THE SON OF GOD AND YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR OWN MIND AND DO WHATEVER SOME INACCURATE ANCIENT BOOK TELLS YOU". 
ALSO! 
I saw an interesting piece on the BBC news yesterday (the BBC was criticised a couple of years ago, by the way, for being too pro-Israel), about how it is not the Jewish lobby in America that drives the country's support for Israel, it is in fact crazy evangelical Christians who believe in something called "End time theology". Basically in the Bible it says for Jesus to return to Earth the Jews must be gathered in Israel, and also that when he returns he will judge the gentiles (non-Jews) treatment of the Jews. Thus, these evangelical Christians (who there are a lot of, and in very high places) are very pro-Israel. Couple with that they are likely to be very pro-American and therefore hate Muslims because of 9/11.

----------


## Kirill2142

About 60 (!) Lebanese were killed in bomb shelter today... More than 20 children... So DO YOU SUPPORT Israel?

----------


## Орчун

> For the most part I have to agree with DDT's postings in this thread... He is right completely about the media's trying to shift people's opinions on Israel... its kind of worrisome as I believe Israel should exist and I don't think Islam should be tolerated: radical or not. Especially not when "tolerating" it means bowing to every whim of the muslims. I hope Israel keeps going, this is the only way to teach the islamist groups out there what will happen if they push them... and if Iran or Syria get involved I'll be cheering as we join in with Israel and bomb them all flat! 
> No hard feelings to any muslims out there~ but I think your religion is the fruit of a crazy man's mind and only serves to endanger civilization.    
> --Peace

 holy *uck,u spittin some crap   ::

----------


## Орчун

All you must respect the religions even budism!I'm a muslim,and im quite pleased with being a muslim.My perception of Islam ain't contains any radical *hit *uck radical islam supporters.Btw u plastic saint,Islam ain't smth that you know,you know *uckin nothing about Islam!

----------


## Орчун

> Phff. Muhamed was a loser anyways. he was banished by his people and the only others who listened to his crazy ravings were camels hustling nomads.

 ,  
hahaha bull*hit   ::  you're really well tought about Islam.I wonder that idiot who tought u all that *hit  ::

----------


## DDT

> There are Arabs who live in Israel proper (i.e. not in the West Bank or Gaza), by the way.

 Yes and they, Arabs with Israei citizenship, seem to be quite content. Unlike Jews who live in Arab countries.   

> But also, I am quite uncomfortable with certain people's blatant Islamophobia. I must say I sort of agree with the points raised, but it isn't done in the most sensitive way.

 Ah!.......that would be me! I don't have a problem with slamming Islam anymore than I have a problem slamming Jim Jones or that other crazy cult  that all killed themselves because Aliens from the comet Halebop were coming to save their souls or Hitler's Nazi Party or the Pope and early Catholics for that matter.  
Why hell, the neo nazis get slammed everytime they comb their hair like Hitler and they haven't done a fraction of the damage that Islam has. Muslims follow the teachings of a homicidal lunatic and so do neo nazis. Why should we give Islam a break?    

> but I wouldn't go up to a Christian and shout "JESUS WAS JUST A CARPENTER WHO TALKED TO MUCH AND WASN'T EVEN THE SON OF GOD AND YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR OWN MIND AND DO WHATEVER SOME INACCURATE ANCIENT BOOK TELLS YOU".

 I think you would.....if Christians were spreading their religion by rapings, beheadings, fatwahs and jihads!     

> I saw an interesting piece on the BBC news yesterday (the BBC was criticised a couple of years ago, by the way, for being too pro-Israel),

 By the extreme radical left!     

> About 60 (!) Lebanese were killed in bomb shelter today... More than 20 children... So DO YOU SUPPORT Israel?

 Er ........yes!

----------


## Орчун

Everybody's free to support any side.What makes me go crazy is some members' thoughts on Islam.They know nothing about Islam.Islam (I'm referring to non-distorted Islam)  is totally different from what they know.

----------


## Vadim84

> All you must respect the religions even budism!

 Nobody has to respect anything!
And what do you mean by the word "*even*"?
Buddhism is probably the most peaceful religion in the world.

----------


## DDL

I can't think of it being better said, DDT.  
Did anyone notice that while everyone is squawking about the 60 killed Lebanese (and some of them probably supporters of Hizballa) no one ever talks about Israel's losses? 
Does no one realize Israel is acting in self-defense? 
My Israeli friend is having to take cover for his life, and is seeing Israeli soldiers being killed every day.   

> Originally Posted by TATY  There are Arabs who live in Israel proper (i.e. not in the West Bank or Gaza), by the way.   Yes and they, Arabs with Israei citizenship, seem to be quite content. Unlike Jews who live in Arab countries.        Originally Posted by TATY  But also, I am quite uncomfortable with certain people's blatant Islamophobia. I must say I sort of agree with the points raised, but it isn't done in the most sensitive way.   Ah!.......that would be me! I don't have a problem with slamming Islam anymore than I have a problem slamming Jim Jones or that other crazy cult  that all killed themselves because Aliens from the comet Halebop were coming to save their souls or Hitler's Nazi Party or the Pope and early Catholics for that matter.  
> Why hell, the neo nazis get slammed everytime they comb their hair like Hitler and they haven't done a fraction of the damage that Islam has. Muslims follow the teachings of a homicidal lunatic and so do neo nazis. Why should we give Islam a break?         Originally Posted by TATY  but I wouldn't go up to a Christian and shout "JESUS WAS JUST A CARPENTER WHO TALKED TO MUCH AND WASN'T EVEN THE SON OF GOD AND YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR OWN MIND AND DO WHATEVER SOME INACCURATE ANCIENT BOOK TELLS YOU".   I think you would.....if Christians were spreading their religion by rapings, beheadings, fatwahs and jihads!          Originally Posted by TATY  I saw an interesting piece on the BBC news yesterday (the BBC was criticised a couple of years ago, by the way, for being too pro-Israel),   By the extreme radical left!          Originally Posted by Kirill2142  About 60 (!) Lebanese were killed in bomb shelter today... More than 20 children... So DO YOU SUPPORT Israel?   Er ........yes!

----------


## Dogboy182

> About 60 (!) Lebanese were killed in bomb shelter today... More than 20 children... So DO YOU SUPPORT Israel?

 
YEP. 
If Lebenon wasnt hiding terrorists it wouldn't have ever happend. 
Sept 1st 2004  
344 People were killed in a school by Islamic extremists including over 150 children, 4 aid workers, and 11 Russian Military members. 700 were hospitalized... Do you still feel sorry for countries that hide terrorists???

----------


## prospector

> There are Arabs who live in Israel proper (i.e. not in the West Bank or Gaza), by the way.

 Close to 20% of the Israeli population are Arabs and seem to be reasonably well integrated into Israeli society, particularly in Haifa. (In fact several of those killed by Hezbollah rockets have actually been Arabs). They have full citizenship and have political representatives in the Israeli parliament. But the situation for those Arabs who live outside Israel proper is very different. They are not Israeli citizens and do not have any political voice inside Israel itself despite being controlled by that state. Israel did not want to make them citizens because it would greatly diminish the Jewish majority and over time could even have resulted in an Arab majority within Israel.   

> Some hippy girl at university who is a member of the "Friends of Palestine Society" assured me that ALL Arabs in Israel lived in the West Bank or Gaza and under no circumstances were permitted to enter the main part of Israel. That's funny, because as well as the many thousands of Arabs living in Israel proper, I read an article on the BBC news site which had a Palestinian man saying Israeli road blocks were making it take him hours and hours to get to Tel-Aviv where he often did business. I.e., people are allowed to travel from the Palestinian territories out into Israel. Also, how does she think these suicide bombers manage to target places like Tel-Aviv?

 The "hippy girl" is obviously misinformed and should really get her facts straight before assuring anyone of anything.   

> Of course there are strict regulations governing where Arabs can live and such and also governing the movements of residents from the Palestinian territories into Israel. 
> And I hear and read lots of talk about the Arabs living in Gaza and West Bank being those who were kicked off their land by the Jews when Israel was formed. Yes probably most of them are. But there was also a large influx of Arabs from neighboring countries under the British mandate. The modern term Palestinian does not refer to a specific ethnicity. It is just an Arab who lives in Palestine. So, an Egyptian family who moved to Palestine in say 1940, and then after the formation of Israel moved into the Gaza strip, would be called Palestinian, and there descendants would be too. 
> But also, I am quite uncomfortable with certain people's blatant Islamophobia. I must say I sort of agree with the points raised, but it isn't done in the most sensitive way. If you are born into a religion it is very difficult to see any fault in it. I believe all religion is a load of cr@p, but I wouldn't go up to a Christian and shout "JESUS WAS JUST A CARPENTER WHO TALKED TO MUCH AND WASN'T EVEN THE SON OF GOD AND YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR OWN MIND AND DO WHATEVER SOME INACCURATE ANCIENT BOOK TELLS YOU".

 Yeah, you don't choose the religion you're born into and even if you disagree with a religion, there's no need to be so deeply offensive. If someone attacks your beliefs in such an outrageously offensive manner as has been displayed in this thread, you're more likely to believe it more rather than change your mind. This type of thing only polarizes opinion further and creates bad feeling.   

> ALSO! 
> I saw an interesting piece on the BBC news yesterday (the BBC was criticised a couple of years ago, by the way, for being too pro-Israel),

 I must say, I never thought of the BBC as being pro-Israel.   

> about how it is not the Jewish lobby in America that drives the country's support for Israel, it is in fact crazy evangelical Christians who believe in something called "End time theology". Basically in the Bible it says for Jesus to return to Earth the Jews must be gathered in Israel, and also that when he returns he will judge the gentiles (non-Jews) treatment of the Jews. Thus, these evangelical Christians (who there are a lot of, and in very high places) are very pro-Israel. Couple with that they are likely to be very pro-American and therefore hate Muslims because of 9/11.

 Yes, this is what I was referring to in my previous post. This theology is known as Dispensationalism and is very popular among Evangelical Christians. The idea is that Christ will come again and the Jews will accept him and convert to Christianity at that time. The 1967 war had a huge impact on the popularity of these ideas. The fact that Israel could prevail over so many Arab armies and achieve such a crushing victory was considered to be the result of God's intervention and proof that the Dispensationalist interpretation of the Bible was true and a clear sign that Christ would come again. In fact some Evangelicals fully expected it to happen in 1967. Since that time the Evangelicals have strongly supported Israel and have been deeply hostile to the Palestinian cause. I even remember reading somewhere that some Evangelical groups make collections to fund and support Israeli settlements in the West Bank. In earlier years though, Evangelicals had been some of the strongest anti-Semitic voices in the US. How times change!

----------


## basurero

> Yeah, you don't choose the religion you're born into and even if you disagree with a religion, there's no need to be so deeply offensive. If someone attacks your beliefs in such an outrageously offensive manner as has been displayed in this thread, you're more likely to believe it more rather than change your mind. This type of thing only polarizes opinion further and creates bad feeling.

 Yes I agree completely. Even though I don't exactly agree with everything Islam represents, I am not going to go around hassling it because If I had been born there I would be a Muslim too.  
Anyway, whether you hate them or not they aren't going any where any time soon...   

> I saw an interesting piece on the BBC news yesterday (the BBC was criticised a couple of years ago, by the way, for being too pro-Israel), about how it is not the Jewish lobby in America that drives the country's support for Israel, it is in fact crazy evangelical Christians who believe in something called "End time theology". Basically in the Bible it says for Jesus to return to Earth the Jews must be gathered in Israel, and also that when he returns he will judge the gentiles (non-Jews) treatment of the Jews. Thus, these evangelical Christians (who there are a lot of, and in very high places) are very pro-Israel. Couple with that they are likely to be very pro-American and therefore hate Muslims because of 9/11.

 This seems to me to be just as twisted as some of the Islamic beliefs. Would these people be willing to finance the killing of innocent civilians just so their prophecy might come true? Just like the Lebanese government harbours terrorists so they can wipe out the Jews or whatever.

----------


## Dogboy182

> Yeah, you don't choose the religion you're born into and even if you disagree with a religion, there's no need to be so deeply offensive. If someone attacks your beliefs in such an outrageously offensive manner as has been displayed in this thread, you're more likely to believe it more rather than change your mind. This type of thing only polarizes opinion further and creates bad feeling.

 What are you talking about? Anyone can believe whatever they want. You believe that just because someone is born somewhere automatically makes them brainwashed cyborgs to religion? 
One of my teachers from Afghanistan told us about how he doesnt believe in Islam, and after going through school and being forced to read the koran he saw how it couldn't make sense and chose to be an athiest. This was in the 70's. When the USSR came into afghanistan in the 80's he moved to Rostov on don, and after the collapse of the USSR he moved to America. 
Alot of people are weak(er) than others, thats why they turn to things like, Religion, or Emo to guide thier lives. Others think for themselves and make their own decisions

----------


## DDT

That's righr. Anyone can decide to use their brain and believe differently. Check this ex Mus woman out! Her name is Wafa Sultan:- Click here  and here  and here too mofo's

----------


## Yazeed

I find it ironic that people who say that Islam is backward and whatnot are being exactly that in discussing ISlam. 
It was quite difficult for me, a Muslim, to read through this thread and not be offended.  If you disagree with my religion, that's fine, but there is no reason to be overtly offensive and make insensitive comments, especially to those who did nothing and simply try to carry on a normal life. 
I'm not out to kill all non-Muslims, and neither is any Muslim I know.  Though it's become a bit burdersome to stand up for my religion, I'll still do it out of my sheer belief that perhaps one day you'll change your mind.   
But if you want to believe that Islam is this evil religion that's set on dominating the world, then by all means, you have the right to believe whatever, but don't go berserk and insult Muslims.  
If you disagree with Islam, say it!  But don't resort to vulgarity, it's unnecessary and it does hurt some people.

----------


## DDT

> If you disagree with Islam, say it!  But don't resort to vulgarity, it's unnecessary and it does hurt some people.

 Well it is hard not to use vulgarity when the guy you worship raped is captives wifes and molested an 8 year old girl, Aisha. I'd call that vulgar, wouldn't you?  
If you want to follow a mass murderer I suggest that you do it in secret and not complain when somebody mentions that he was a mass murderer.  
If  you don't like it why don't you try Buddhism ?

----------


## Ramil

Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.
It's just very convenient for certain people (non-islamic, by the way) to stir arabs into religious frenzy. By offending religious sense of all arabic world one could never hope for any peace there. 
What will young arab children in Lebanon learn from their teachers? That killing is wrong? That jews and arabs will have to learn to live together? No, they will learn that jews are bad because they've bombed their school/home.  They don't care about the causes of the war. Neither they care for Hezbollah, Government and other adult matters. They just want to go out and play. They should be taught how to be tolerable and not how to hate. By bombing arabs jews would accomplish nothing but raising another generation of jews-haters.
There are much more arabs than jews in the Middle East and Israel might run out of bombs but it won't kill all arabs. 
It's good there are USA which support Israel pouring huge amounts of money in that boiling pot every year, but what will jews do if USA due to some worsening of economy reduces or stops completely the funding of Israel? I'm afraid that in this case Israel will simply cease to exist.

----------


## Yazeed

> Originally Posted by Yazeed  
> If you disagree with Islam, say it!  But don't resort to vulgarity, it's unnecessary and it does hurt some people.   Well it is hard not to use vulgarity when the guy you worship raped is captives wifes and molested an 8 year old girl, Aisha. I'd call that vulgar, wouldn't you?  
> If you want to follow a mass murderer I suggest that you do it in secret and not complain when somebody mentions that he was a mass murderer.  
> If  you don't like it why don't you try Buddhism ?

 I will not dignify this with a response.. 
But, I'm just curious, where did you find this info? I'd be interested to know.

----------


## Ramil

> Then why do you think Hizbullah is targetting civillians in Israel?

 Becayse they got paid for that. It's very simple. There is a category of people who will do everything for money. 
There may be several reasons for that. 
- to destroy developing Lebanon economy
- to sabotage the efforts for peace of some moderate islamic governments (and Israel's also)
- to keep the Middle East unstable
- to distract the world from some other disgustful thing taking place in the world right now.
- ... 
I would never accept the nothion that all this war is just about religion and religious hate between jews and arabs. 
Wars happen because of three and three things only: power, money and territory.

----------


## Alware

> I will not dignify this with a response.. 
> But, I'm just curious, where did you find this info? I'd be interested to know.

 Dear, Yazeed. I'm defenitely not intended to offend you. But I think, if youre an educated muslim you shouldnt just get offended. But tell us how it really written in Koran. Because offended blind believers cut throats insted of teaching IMHO

----------


## Yazeed

> Originally Posted by Yazeed  I will not dignify this with a response.. 
> But, I'm just curious, where did you find this info? I'd be interested to know.   Dear, Yazeed. I'm defenitely not intended to offend you. But I think, if youre an educated muslim you shouldnt just get offended. But tell us how it really written in Koran. Because offended blind believers cut throats insted of teaching IMHO

 'How' what is written in the Koran? 
Just to add to what I have stated.
I hate terrorism, and it truly makes me angry to see Muslims terrorists committing atrocious acts.  My family, my relatives and the peeople I know share these feelings.  This is a small, small friction of Muslims who are terrorists.  You can come up a thousand Muslim terrorist group and each has a thousand members, it still would be less than 0.01%.   
I hate fundamentalists, and I would help anyone against Islamic fundamentalists, but please don't put the moderate Muslims in the same picture as these terrorists.

----------


## Alware

> 'How' what is written in the Koran?

 The life of Muhammed.

----------


## SummerKiss

> Originally Posted by TATY  Then why do you think Hizbullah is targetting civillians in Israel?   Becayse they got paid for that. It's very simple. There is a category of people who will do everything for money. 
> There may be several reasons for that. 
> - to destroy developing Lebanon economy
> - to sabotage the efforts for peace of some moderate islamic governments (and Israel's also)
> - to keep the Middle East unstable
> - to distract the world from some other disgustful thing taking place in the world right now.
> - ... 
> I would never accept the nothion that all this war is just about religion and religious hate between jews and arabs. 
> Wars happen because of three and three things only: power, money and territory.

 ABSOLUTELY RIGHT

----------


## DDT

> But, I'm just curious, where did you find this info? I'd be interested to know.

 Yes, he had most or all of his detractors killed in similar fashion. This lady was just a poet that he didn't like. The story is taken from Hadith.   

> Muhammad was enraged at their criticism. When he heard the verses composed by Asma Bint Marwan he was infuriated and screamed aloud, "Will no one rid me of this daughter of Marwan!" That very night a gang of Muslims set out to do the dirty deed. They broke into the poets' house. She was lying in in her bedroom suckling her newborn child, while her other small children slept nearby. The Muslims tore the newborn infant off her breast and hacked it to pieces before her very eyes. They then made her watch the murder of all four of her children, before raping and then stabbing her repeatedly to death. After the murder when the Muslims went to inform the Prophet, he said "You have done a service to Allah and his Messenger, her life was not worth even two goats!"

 http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar1.html http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter.aspx?g=401&i=41023 http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index. ... le&sid=142 http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm   

> Sahih Bukhari
> •	"Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years old). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, 'Best wishes and God's blessing and a good luck.' Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage)." [7]
> •	"Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)." [8]
> •	Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 "Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)."
> •	Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236. "Narrated Hisham's father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic – consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old."
> •	Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65 "Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained

----------


## Kirill2142

> Originally Posted by Kirill2142  About 60 (!) Lebanese were killed in bomb shelter today... More than 20 children... So DO YOU SUPPORT Israel?   
> YEP. 
> If Lebenon wasnt hiding terrorists it wouldn't have ever happend. 
> Sept 1st 2004  
> 344 People were killed in a school by Islamic extremists including over 150 children, 4 aid workers, and 11 Russian Military members. 700 were hospitalized... Do you still feel sorry for countries that hide terrorists???

 More than 20 children were killed! Do you think they supported terrorists?
Why did they attack bomb shelter? Was it necessary to kill'em?

----------


## Kirill2142

> My Israeli friend is having to take cover for his life, and is seeing Israeli soldiers being killed every day.

 They're soldiers! They have to take part in the battle, and sometimes they are killed. It's common at war, isn't it?

----------


## Gordon Freeman

D'u know Nostradamus or someone like this? (I don't know the original name of him in English). He predicted that the Third World War would come from the the Middle East (the Near East). And every big war comes in the beginning of the century. Strange coincidence, ah? Maybe it would be better to destroy either Lebanon or Israel to prevent the war?
Just think - to kill 1 million of people and save 10 millions or save 1 million and kill 10 millions of people (so that one million will die at war later). And it is predicted that the Armageddon would come just after the war! You can disagree with me, you can agree. Everyone who read this will think - omg, maybe this is true?

----------


## basurero

OMG, maybe this is true?  ::

----------


## prospector

> Yeah, you don't choose the religion you're born into and even if you disagree with a religion, there's no need to be so deeply offensive. If someone attacks your beliefs in such an outrageously offensive manner as has been displayed in this thread, you're more likely to believe it more rather than change your mind. This type of thing only polarizes opinion further and creates bad feeling.
> 			
> 		  What are you talking about? Anyone can believe whatever they want. You believe that just because someone is born somewhere automatically makes them brainwashed cyborgs to religion? 
> One of my teachers from Afghanistan told us about how he doesnt believe in Islam, and after going through school and being forced to read the koran he saw how it couldn't make sense and chose to be an athiest. This was in the 70's. When the USSR came into afghanistan in the 80's he moved to Rostov on don, and after the collapse of the USSR he moved to America. 
> Alot of people are weak(er) than others, thats why they turn to things like, Religion, or Emo to guide thier lives. Others think for themselves and make their own decisions

 Well, I'd contend that if you look around at the world today you'll see there are rather a large number of brainwashed cyborgs to religion. Most people will follow the faith of their family and community, it's the default behaviour of humans. I don't like it myself and wish people could learn to think for themselves and not blindly follow the preachings of religious leaders or ancient religious texts. But for that to happen, people have to have access to other viewpoints, to books and information sources that challenge them to think critically about the beliefs they absorbed from their parents. I was fortunate enough to be born in a developed country with a very good educational system and to parents who didn't spend a huge amount of time trying to indoctrinate me to their beliefs (They rather naively thought if they were good Christians I would automatically follow their faith and they weren't obsessed with religion anyway). There were other factors as well which meant I had a lot of time to think about these things and developed an interest in them due to the particular environment I grew up in. Not everyone is as fortunate (although perhaps if you're religious you mightn't feel fortunate is the right word). So, it's rather simplistic to just say anyone can believe what they want. Often, it's not that easy. Some families can really do a good job of locking a kid's brain into a particular religious viewpoint in the early years of life. But everyone is different, there are some people who would think for themselves no matter what they were programmed to think. But I believe they are exceptional and are not representative of the vast majority of people. 
And lastly, I'm not saying that all religious people are unthinking automatons. I might feel that a lot of their ideas don't add up or are very inconsistent but it doesn't mean I think they are wrong about everything. I have religious friends who can think very carefully about things and come to their own conclusions, and often see things much clearer than me about particular issues, but I still feel when it comes to the big questions of life they are uncomfortable about challenging their beliefs and are often content to believe unusual things on the basis of faith and faith alone.

----------


## mashamania

> and are often content to believe unusual things on the basis of faith and faith alone.

 That's because most religions are concerned mainly about things like the afterlife and God. You really can't investigate on your own about those things, like you can about more human sciences, for obvious reasons, i.e. unless you've died and come back to life, etc. So faith is really the only option about such topics.  
You really can't investigate on your own about them to find out for yourself if they're true or not, even if you have the time and don't have to work for a living like most people around the world, so people rely on what religious figures have to say about those things, like the founders of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, etc, who claim to have in some way had an experience of the afterlife or claim to have spoken to God, like Jesus, Moses, etc.

----------


## DDT

> Wars happen because of three and three things only: power, money and territory.

 So, you are telling me that The 80 or so wars that Mohammed started (26 of wuich he personally participated) were over power, money or territory? 
That would make Mohammed a terrorist and all Muslims guilty by association wouldn't it?

----------


## DDL

> Originally Posted by DDL  My Israeli friend is having to take cover for his life, and is seeing Israeli soldiers being killed every day.   They're soldiers! They have to take part in the battle, and sometimes they are killed. It's common at war, isn't it?

 Let me re-write that - soldiers AND civilians. My friend, who is still only a boy, is fearing for his life. 
If someone attacked your country, surely you would attack back, would you not? Self-defense, not terrorism.

----------


## Kamion

> D'u know Nostradamus or someone like this? (I don't know the original name of him in English). He predicted that the Third World War would come from the the Middle East (the Near East). *And every big war comes in the beginning of the century*. Strange coincidence, ah? Maybe it would be better to destroy either Lebanon or Israel to prevent the war?
> Just think - to kill 1 million of people and save 10 millions or save 1 million and kill 10 millions of people (so that one million will die at war later). And it is predicted that the Armageddon would come just after the war! You can disagree with me, you can agree. Everyone who read this will think - omg, maybe this is true?

 Uh, maybe not. The second world war is what I would call a big war, and it began 1939. Besides, Nostradamus said loads of things. Most of them weren

----------


## Yazeed

> Originally Posted by Yazeed  
> But, I'm just curious, where did you find this info? I'd be interested to know.   Yes, he had most or all of his detractors killed in similar fashion. This lady was just a poet that he didn't like. The story is taken from Hadith.     
> 			
> 				Muhammad was enraged at their criticism. When he heard the verses composed by Asma Bint Marwan he was infuriated and screamed aloud, "Will no one rid me of this daughter of Marwan!" That very night a gang of Muslims set out to do the dirty deed. They broke into the poets' house. She was lying in in her bedroom suckling her newborn child, while her other small children slept nearby. The Muslims tore the newborn infant off her breast and hacked it to pieces before her very eyes. They then made her watch the murder of all four of her children, before raping and then stabbing her repeatedly to death. After the murder when the Muslims went to inform the Prophet, he said "You have done a service to Allah and his Messenger, her life was not worth even two goats!"
> 			
> 		  http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar1.html http://www.prophetofdoom.net/chapter.aspx?g=401&i=41023 http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index. ... le&sid=142 http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm 
> [quote:21poqkso]
> Sahih Bukhari
> •	"Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years old). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, 'Best wishes and God's blessing and a good luck.' Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage)." [7]
> ...

 [/quote:21poqkso] 
This is another false attribution to Mohammed.  Just like a number of people come up with racist writings and attributed the Talmud to justify anti-Semitism, people distort hadiths because it further advances their cause against Muslims.  I see your sources are quite unbiased and very impartial in judgement.   
To quote from submission.org   

> The source of the above information can only be the Hadiths books which are nothing but lies attributed to prophet Muhammad. It has no support in Quran. It does not make practical sense. Any person at the age of six is still a child who is incapable of taking crucial decisions which are essential for marriage under Quranic guidance, like taking solemn pledge, ascertaining mutual attraction, agreeing to the dowry (including adjustment thereto), ascertaining whether the opposite person is an idol worshipper  or not and many other issues. Further, marriage involves taking serious responsibilities on the part of both the spouses concerning the upbringing of the family, which a child of the age of 6 or 8 or whatever is incapable of taking.

----------


## Yazeed

> Originally Posted by Yazeed  'How' what is written in the Koran?   The life of Muhammed.

 http://www.submission.org/muhammed/

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil  
> Wars happen because of three and three things only: power, money and territory.   So, you are telling me that The 80 or so wars that Mohammed started (26 of wuich he personally participated) were over power, money or territory?

 More or less so.   

> That would make Mohammed a terrorist and all Muslims guilty by association wouldn't it?

 Mohammed was a prophet of God or so muslims think. I wouldn't question that. But he was probably the only "saint" person in Asia of that time. Wars are not the deed of one man. There were also his followers who DID make war upon the heathens mostly for gold, power and territory. International policies existed even those days. And giving all due regard to Muhammed - he was just a man and he was compelled to follow rules dictated by the reality.  
The influence of Muhammed could just as well have been used by other forces to their own interest.   
And don't forget the fact that apart from being a prophet, Mohammed was also a major politician of that time and some of his steps were rather political than spiritual. (Jesus had a political experience too, by the way). 
Terrorism is efforts of a person or a group of persons directed to force local population into obedience through fear. (that's a more or less strict definition of the word).  
In the name of Jesus Christ there were committed much more atrocities than muslims  happen to do up to date. Islam is a young religion that tries to fit into the modern world. Give it a chance. It's a matter of 1, at most 2 more generations. Christianity has been more or less civilised by the middle of the XIX century, i.e. 1800 years since Jesus had been born. Muslims are making much greater progress.

----------


## basurero

> Originally Posted by Ramil  
> Wars happen because of three and three things only: power, money and territory.   So, you are telling me that The 80 or so wars that Mohammed started (26 of wuich he personally participated) were over power, money or territory? 
> That would make Mohammed a terrorist and all Muslims guilty by association wouldn't it?

 George Bush is a terrorist. Therefore all Americans are terrorists by association.  ::

----------


## Dogboy182

Correction... And even more so correct... Predident Bush is an idiot. He graduated from harvard with the "gentleman's C". Thus my conclusion, making all Americans idiots.  ::

----------


## mashamania

> Terrorism is efforts of a person or a group of persons directed to force local population into obedience through fear. (that's a more or less strict definition of the word).

 Perhaps you're being too technical with the word "terrorism." Not everything that inspires terror or fear is terrorism in the political sense. Every war inspires fear as war is an ugly and frightening venture. But soldiers targeting other soldiers is just part of war and not terrorism. 
Terrorism means more the purposeful targeting of civilians and civilian structures which have no military use imo.

----------


## DDT

> This is another false attribution to Mohammed.  Just like a number of people come up with racist writings and attributed the Talmud to justify anti-Semitism, people distort hadiths because it further advances their cause against Muslims.  I see your sources are quite unbiased and very impartial in judgement.

 It's funny how muslims say that anything bad that mohammed did is just a distortion, when it comes right out of their own writings ::   ::   
Talmund is not Tora and followed by only a few Jews. Whereas Hadith is respected and quoted alongside Koran in Islam in general. The proof of this comes in the form of Sharia Law practiced by many Muslin countries, including the New Afghanistan government, sadly! 
Muslims speak out of both sides of their heads when it comes from Hadith. напремер: When Hadith says that MOhammed was pleased that the poet and her children were slaughtered, a cleric might say that "Well, that is only Hadith". But the next day the cleric will use Hadith to prove a point about mofo Mohammed!  
Claiming that  

> This is another false attribution to Mohammed

  is just pathetic and only fools those who  have no knowlege of mohammed not to mention the fact that this is the typical response from a muslim. History proves otherwise and there really is no explanation for mohammeds despicable behaviour other than,  well, that he was a moron.
Like most religious people, be they Christian or Muslim, you need to do more research on your cult.......oops sorry, religion.    

> Originally Posted by DDT  
> George Bush is a terrorist. Therefore all Americans are terrorists by association.

 The anaolgy doesn't quite work. You see firstly GW doesn't target civilians in order to cause terror. However, *if*  he was a terrorist, only the republican party would also be terrorists by association.  
Just in the same way the nazi party and neo nazis  are guilty of racism anti semitism and share the blame with Hitler for atrocity. 
Therefore in the same way muslims share the blame of mohammed's atrocites because they damn near worship him as if he was god.

----------


## basurero

So if all muslims are guilty of terrorism, whether they believe in the murder of innocent civilians or not, then surely all Americans must be guilty of terrorism (war crimes: whatever you want to call it), whether they support Bush or not.  ::

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil  Terrorism is efforts of a person or a group of persons directed to force local population into obedience through fear. (that's a more or less strict definition of the word).   Perhaps you're being too technical with the word "terrorism." Not everything that inspires terror or fear is terrorism in the political sense. Every war inspires fear as war is an ugly and frightening venture. But soldiers targeting other soldiers is just part of war and not terrorism. 
> Terrorism means more the purposeful targeting of civilians and civilian structures which have no military use imo.

 People tend to mistake other forms of violence with terrorism. Greedy for sensations journalists whose common IQ level is being not more than 20 gladly stick a "terrorism" label on every possible situation (the word is being popular after all). 
Terrorism is when you have some goals and you choose to frighten people to achieve these goals. When soldiers aim at other soldiers - that is an act of war. When soldiers aim at civilians purposedly - that is a terrorism.

----------


## Ramil

> Therefore in the same way muslims share the blame of mohammed's atrocites because they damn near worship him as if he was god.

 There is no other god but God and the Mohammed is the _prophet_ of God. 
You would have been beaten with stones in some Arabian country for speaking heresies about worshiping Mohammed as a God. 
And I would repeat - Christians have committed much more atrocities in the name of Jesus Crhist than muslims did. Why don't you mention that? Why don't you call all christians terrorists? 
Christian inquisitors burned their own people not to mention "heathens" whose deaths score is uncountable. Christians committed genocides of peoples in Southern America during the spanish dominion over the region - whole nations were wiped out, christians killed thousands of people in crusades and generally two world wars were started by the christians. 
It was christians who used nuclear weapons on civilians. Why don't anybody say that Christianity is a criminal religion then?
I am an orthodox crhistian myself, but I wouldn't deny the historical facts and use double standards in relation to the Islam.

----------


## prospector

> Therefore in the same way muslims share the blame of mohammed's atrocites because they damn near worship him as if he was god.

 This is a very disturbing mindset to see someone adopt and is really the first step on the road to dehumanising an entire people and justifying violence against them. It reminds me of the way many Christians believed that all Jews carried a communal guilt for the death of Christ. This widespread belief in Europe acted as the justification for terrible acts of violence against Jews throughout the ages. I can see you've learned nothing from history.

----------


## SummerKiss

http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?mid=8366322  
an interesting article for those who would like to read in Russian a bit  ::

----------


## DDT

> So if all muslims are guilty of terrorism, whether they believe in the murder of innocent civilians or not, then surely all Americans must be guilty of terrorism (war crimes: whatever you want to call it), whether they support Bush or not.

 I just told you why! Because all Americans did not vote for him or in other words, follow his religion of republicanism. Muslims have to hold Mohammed (the leader of their party) blameless for the atrocities he committed. That is like nazis holding Hitler blameless.
How does one feel when they meet a guy wearing a swaztika? They feel insulted and repulsed because they know that this guy thinks that what Hitler did was good. 
It is the same when  muslim tries to tell me that Islam is the "true" way.            

> And I would repeat - Christians have committed much more atrocities in the name of Jesus Crhist than muslims did. Why don't you mention that? Why don't you call all christians terrorists? [/quote

 Firstly because what christians did is another subject. The subject of my post was Mohammed. Christians are not the subject of why Mohammed was a criminal and not a prophet. 
Secondly, I am not talking about the atrocities of Muslims here, only the atrocities of MOhammed himself. If you want to equate that to Christians  I don't see how because Jesus never participated in War, rape, torture and looting. Nor condoned them. 
There is no comparison between Jesus and Mohammed. What Christians or Muslims do on their own is irrelevant. And the fact is Christians did more good for the world than Islam did for the world anyway! But I can see that it is easy for some people to turn this into a Christian Witch hunt because of what Roman Catholics did who weren't exactly Christians anyway. But that would be a little over your head and another subject.

----------


## mashamania

> It was christians who used nuclear weapons on civilians.

 The non-orthodox and non-catholic Christians.

----------


## DDT

> Originally Posted by Ramil  It was christians who used nuclear weapons on civilians.   The non-orthodox and non-catholic Christians.

 It was the Allies who used nuclear weapons through the USA. That encompasses a whole lot of people of all creeds and colour. 
And, by the way, dropping that Bomb freed my family from  sure death in Japaneese prison camps  in Burma. Who knows if I would have even been born if not for that bomb!

----------


## mashamania

> http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?mid=8366322  
> an interesting article for those who would like to read in Russian a bit

 It won't be a world world until the other side can fight back. Nor until a major power joins the war, otherwise it's just another regional conflict imo.

----------


## adoc

Break it up kids

----------


## basurero

> I just told you why! Because all Americans did not vote for him or in other words, follow his religion of republicanism.

 And not all Muslims support the slaughter of innocent children in Lebanon. Are they terrorists still?

----------


## SummerKiss

> Originally Posted by SummerKiss  http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?mid=8366322  
> an interesting article for those who would like to read in Russian a bit    It won't be a world world until the other side can fight back. Nor until a major power joins the war, otherwise it's just another regional conflict imo.

 I hope so, but to my opinion its not just a regional conflict. Israel is just a toy in somebody's hands. That situation leads to destabilization in the whole region.

----------


## Орчун

Summerkiss I'm totally agree with you.  

> Israel is just a toy in somebody's hands

  That's absolutely true.

----------


## Plastic-Saint

Alright, sorry for not being around to respond to every poke at my last post but I'll try to cover all the bases: 
 I believe the first question was something like _"What exactly don't you agree with 100% about DDT's opinions?"_ 
 I do not believe there is any real proof that Muhammed married Aisha at 6 nor consumated said marriage at 9. BUT being as he is saying his sources are Hadith I have no way of knowing until I have collected all known Hadith of the prophet and checked for his claims.... which I am plain and simply not interested in doing. 
The next most interesting I found was _"All you must respect the religions even budism!I'm a muslim,and im quite pleased with being a muslim.My perception of Islam ain't contains any radical *hit *uck radical islam supporters.Btw u plastic saint,Islam ain't smth that you know,you know *uckin nothing about Islam!"_ 
I'm going to work in reverse through this gem: I do know something about Islam, I own and have read two english translations of the meanings of the Qur'an given to me by devout Muslims as gifts. I have also discussed Islam, the Qur'an, Muhammed as well as Isa(Jesus) with muslims not limited simply to members of my uni's MSA(Muslim Student Association) but also their sponsors from the local Muslim community.(well educated people) ~~ At one point I even almost said the shahadha and "reverted"(as you can tell my perspective has changed)... Also, the wordage you use "you must respect the religions  *even budism*"(it is Buddhism by the way) makes me want to ask.. Why *even* buddhism? One of the most peaceful spiritual paths in existence and it is your *even*... why not, say... "even Asatru"? or "even Hinduism"? Also... do you realize that by respecting these religions you are going directly against the word of God(Allah) as per the Qur'an? The only religions you can *respect* are those of "the Book"~ Judaism, Christianity, and of course the final revelation Islam. To wrap it all up: I don't *have* to respect all religions... If I did then I would just be a doormat for people who believe I'm evil or that I shouldn't be taught certain scientific theories...  
Next attack/statement.. to the person who said he believes my existence shouldn't be tolerated: Come on over and try to stop it from being tolerated, even embraced. ^^ 
Everyone quoting casualties on the lebanese side: Their people started a war. In war there are casualties. Anways, many of those children would have probably grown up enamored by hezbollah or some other group anyways and if not joined them at least supported them... yeah sure its sad for innocents to die, but if it leads to the downfall of groups like Hezbollah: Acceptable Losses. (just like the israeli civilians and children dieing are acceptable losses) 
To the people who keep pushing facts about Christian atrocities into the conversation: Who cares? I know I don't. I'm not a christian and I see what those people did in the name of jesus as intolerable just as much as I see islamist's current actions... I think Israel should exist mostly because I think the West and Western interests need a physical presence in the region; not for religious reasons. These arguments hold no bearing on the conversation anyways. 
~~Peace

----------


## SummerKiss

> Everyone quoting casualties on the lebanese side: Their people started a war. In war there are casualties. Anways, many of those children would have probably grown up enamored by hezbollah or some other group anyways and if not joined them at least supported them... yeah sure its sad for innocents to die, but if it leads to the downfall of groups like Hezbollah: Acceptable Losses. (just like the israeli civilians and children dieing are acceptable losses)

 Is a kidnapping of 2 soldiers a real reason for beginning of war and massacre??? I dont think so, because if it was like that, Russia should start total bombing of Ukraine immediately, just because they are stealing our natural gas! 
For all those who blame Russia for Chechnia. First of all its a part of our country and not a sovereign state. And secondly, we never bombed innocent civilians, villages or schools or hospitals or other infrastaructure of the country, on the countrary! hundreds of our soldiers died saving chechenian children.

----------


## Dogboy182

> Russia should start total bombing of Ukraine immediately, just because they are stealing our natural gas!

 Hell yea! 
Then make it a republic under the control of the Russian goverment again. 
Украинцы всех стран... Сдайтесь!   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::

----------


## SummerKiss

> Originally Posted by SummerKiss  
>  Russia should start total bombing of Ukraine immediately, just because they are stealing our natural gas!   Hell yea! 
> Then make it a republic under the control of the Russian goverment again. 
> Украинцы всех стран... Сдайтесь!

 For what???? It was their decision to be independant, so now its time to pay for it and pay a real price for our natural resources.

----------


## Dogboy182

You didn't  get the joke....  
Пролетерии(Spelling) всех стран - соединись! 
See... it's funny!

----------


## SummerKiss

> You didn't  get the joke....  
> Пролетерии(Spelling) всех стран - соединись! 
> See... it's funny!

   :: )) hehe you know I work for Gazprom so I just could not get that jokeeee

----------


## mashamania

> I dont think so, because if it was like that, Russia should start total bombing of Ukraine immediately, just because they are stealing our natural gas!

 Yeah, but if you start bombing Ukraine, the hell with the atrocities, what's more important is Russia would lose a customer for its natural gas.  ::  lol jk. 
But I'm only partly joking because that's why it's important to have economic ties with countries around the world and particularly with your neighbors, even if you don't have the same religion or political system. Countries are be less willing to bomb each other if it means losing billions of dollars in trade. Sad to say, that is a better deterrent for war than the prospect of atrocities. But of course the problem in the Middle East is Israel is an ostracized member of the neighborhood. What the Middle East needs is more capitalism and less fanaticism, imo.

----------


## Plastic-Saint

SummerKiss: No, the kidnapping of 2 soldiers isn't good enough a reason to go to war. But, Hezbollah has been attacking and harassing Israel for a very very long time... the kidnappings and subsequent bloody fleeing across the border into lebanon were simply the last straw in a massive pile of straws that broke the proverbial camel's back. _**EDIT/Addition: After a bit of thought... the kidnapping of 2 soldiers is good enough reason for some sort of military action to try and free them... if for no one else than their families.**_ 
"But of course the problem in the Middle East is Israel is an ostracized member of the neighborhood. What the Middle East needs is more capitalism and less fanaticism, imo." 
Really, that is the problem. I agree. If the rest of the Middle East would get over having jews in "their" region and everyone would start exchanging goods and ideals we could see some sort of peace... but the fanatics show no sign of dampening their fervor any time soon, unfortunately.

----------


## SummerKiss

> Originally Posted by SummerKiss  I dont think so, because if it was like that, Russia should start total bombing of Ukraine immediately, just because they are stealing our natural gas!   Yeah, but if you start bombing Ukraine, the hell with the atrocities, what's more important is Russia would lose a customer for its natural gas. 
> But I'm only partly joking because that's why it's important to have economic ties with countries around the world and particularly with your neighbors, even if you don't have the same religion or political system. Countries are be less willing to bomb each other if it means losing billions of dollars in trade. Sad to say, that is a better deterrent for war than the prospect of atrocities. But of course the problem in the Middle East is Israel is an ostracized member of the neighborhood. What the Middle East needs is more capitalism and less fanaticism, imo.

 Hehe come onnn, Unkraine is not owr main natural gas customer, on the contrary we loose large amount of money selling gas by low prices. 
What the Middle East needs is more capitalism and less fanaticism - with that I agree, but the lebanese economy was growing up and now after such destruction it will be thrown 15 years back.

----------


## prospector

> "But of course the problem in the Middle East is Israel is an ostracized member of the neighborhood. What the Middle East needs is more capitalism and less fanaticism, imo." 
> Really, that is the problem. I agree. If the rest of the Middle East would get over having jews in "their" region and everyone would start exchanging goods and ideals we could see some sort of peace... but the fanatics show no sign of dampening their fervor any time soon, unfortunately.

 If Israel would stop treating most of its Arab population as a conquered people, subjecting them to an oppressive military presence, restricting their movements, denying them any democratic voice in the state that rules them and kicking them out of their homes to make way for expanding settlements, it might be a whole lot easier for people in the region to accept Israel's presence. Israel's own treatment of its Palestinian population has fuelled resentment and hostility towards it. The images of death and destruction in Lebanon only add to this - regardless of who started it or whether the campaign is justified or not. 
When I was younger and first started to learn about the Middle East, my sympathies were overwhelmingly with Israel. However as I started to learn more about Israel's behaviour in the West Bank and Gaza and particularly the impact of settlement activity on Palestinian life my views changed completely. While most Americans hear very little if anything about this, everyone in the Middle East knows about it. The unresolved Palestinian-Israeli conflict is what keeps all of this going and provides the fanatics with just the reports and images they need to help spread their ideologies.

----------


## mashamania

> but the lebanese economy was growing up and now after such destruction it will be thrown 15 years back.

 True. And seeing your homeland crushed to rubble will only plant bitter seeds in your heart, even if you are a Lebanese against Hezbollah.

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by SummerKiss  but the lebanese economy was growing up and now after such destruction it will be thrown 15 years back.   True. And seeing your homeland crushed to rubble will only plant bitter seeds in your heart, even if you are a Lebanese against Hezbollah.

 I seriously doubt it. Seeing your homeland crushed to rubble will inspire even more hate agains those who actually crushed it, i.e. Israel. And Hezbollah would seem like their defender. It always happens this way. To think that by destroying a house would make its owner hate hezbollah - is a gross error.

----------


## DDT

That is what mashamania is saying, Ramil!

----------


## Ramil

> That is what mashamania is saying, Ramil!

 Oops, I didn't catch the point then, sorry.

----------


## DDT

You are forgiven........go and sin no more, my son!

----------


## Remyisme

Pray for our people, guys, there were number of rockets boomings, not far from my house, I first thought it was just near my house, but it really happened like about 20 min walking from my house, in a muslim neighbourhood, over 60 hurt it's pretty close.

----------


## Орчун

Israel should stop bombing anymore.I just can't stand it!god damn,im feeling sorry for those 1000 people were killed by Israel!

----------


## DDT

> Israel should stop bombing anymore.I just can't stand it!god damn,im feeling sorry for those 1000 people were killed by Israel!

 You can't stand it? What the hell do you care you are not getting bombed. If you care so much go join Hezbollah where you belong.

----------


## mashamania

> Originally Posted by Орчун  Israel should stop bombing anymore.I just can't stand it!god damn,im feeling sorry for those 1000 people were killed by Israel!   You can't stand it? What the hell do you care you are not getting bombed. If you care so much go join Hezbollah where you belong.

 You shouldn't be helping Hezbollah recruit members, DDT. They have enough members!  ::

----------


## Орчун

> Originally Posted by Орчун  Israel should stop bombing anymore.I just can't stand it!god damn,im feeling sorry for those 1000 people were killed by Israel!   You can't stand it? What the hell do you care you are not getting bombed. If you care so much go join Hezbollah where you belong.

 
Hell f*** u and HEZBOLLAH!!!I'm not a *ucking supporting the radical islamist!whadda f*** u know ha?u think that all people against Israel's bombing s*** are on the side of Hezbollah?hell a big NO!!!Israel is killing innocent people more than Hezbollah members!!!

----------


## Lampada

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3063 
"Hizballah’s blitz against Israel peaked Sunday, Day 26 of the war, killing 15 Israelis, injuring more than 200 – men and women, Jews and Arabs 
August 7, 2006, 12:04 AM (GMT+02:00) 
They fired at least 250 rockets across northern Israel, four times as many as the Germans ever dropped on Britain in one day during World War II. An estimated 13 heavy 220 mm rockets from Syria hit seven buildings in Haifa.  
Israel struck back fast and took out the launchers at at Burj Rahal northeast of the Lebanese port of Tyre which fired at Haifa. DEBKAfile’s military sources report that Hizballah no longer bothers to conceal the launch sites of its heavy missiles. Their crews are under orders to execute “suicide launchings,” accepting that the moment they let their rockets fly they will be exposed to reprisal. Hizballah is now bent on maximizing the number of Israeli casualties.  
Eight hours earlier, Hizballah launchers in four separate command posts coordinated their rocket fire on an Israeli reservist unit unloading trucks outside Kibutz Kfar Gileadi near Kiryat Shemona, killing 12 soldiers and injuring 13.  
Our sources also disclose that Hassan Nasrallah has ordered all members of his senior command, military and political alike, to go underground, disconnect their phones and refuse media interviews in the present period which he sees as marking the decisive stage of the war."

----------


## Siriusly

As the famous [meaning- crook, scoundrel, lowlife] lawyer, Clarence Darrow once said: "I never wished anyone dead, but I sure enjoyed reading their obituaries." So it will be for all you successful people; where as, us humble [losers] will die with respect!

----------


## DDT

You just have to keep this thread going don't you! Do you really think that posting photos of the victims of war means anything other that war sucks, you moron. Did you bother to post any photos of blown up Israelis, who by the way are intentionally targeted by Hizballah? You want to side with the sub-human scum that hide behind women and kids and fire off rockets at civillians, that's fine! 
 Well, now I will post a little story of how the Israeli soldier fights. 
 Late last Saturday night, an Israeli commando unit landed by helicopter on a beach near the Lebanese city of Tyre. None of the soldiers wore military markings. All had grown beards, so observers would think they were just another group of Hezballah jihadis.  
After landing, the soldiers made their way to a building that housed a three-man Hizballah rocket-launcher crew. From intelligence reports, the commandos knew the trio was holed up in a second-floor apartment.  
The Israeli commander was the first through the door, and promptly took a bullet through a lung. The Israelis fired back. When the smoke cleared, all three Hezbollah members were dead. The Israeli commander was still breathing — but only barely. Another commando was also seriously wounded.  
As the commandos left — their two wounded on stretchers — they were attacked by Hizballah gunmen spilling out of nearby buildings. Israeli helicopter gunships hovering nearby laid down a covering fire, allowing the commandos to retreat to their original landing area. After a military doctor performed emergency surgery that saved the commander's life, the whole team flew back to Israel. 
Israel easily could have dropped a bomb on the building and taken out their targets while they slept.  
Why didn't Israel do just that? Because as well as serving as a barracks for Hezbollah, the building also contained civilians. And Israel didn't want to spill their blood. Hezballah may wage war while hiding behind women's skirts and baby rattles. But Israel stubbornly adheres to a more humane creed.  
This is not a new policy that Israel adopted in response to the July 30 Qana bombing. Israeli soldiers employed the same humane methods in one of the first major engagements of this war.  
On June 26, Israeli infantrymen assaulted the outskirts of Bint Jbail, a major Hezbollah hub near the border. Israel could have flattened the town easily prior to its soldiers' advance — it lies well within range of its army's artillery, not to mention the Israeli air force. But according to a high-ranking Israeli officer, the carpet-bombing option was ruled out because several hundred Bint Jbail civilian residents had ignored Israel's warning to flee. As in Tyre, Hizbollah was using them as human shields.  
The result? Battalion 51 of Israel's Golani Brigade was ambushed by dozens of Hezbollah gunmen wielding anti-tank missiles. In the hellish close combat that followed, eight Israeli soldiers died. Like the 23 Israeli soldiers who lost their lives in the warrens of the Jenin refugee camp in 2002, the men of Battalion 51 died so that Arab civilians could live. *Not one of Israel's enemies would have taken the same risks under similar circumstances.   *

----------


## Plastic-Saint

Yet again DDT is right~ 
  To the person saying Israel should stop bombing: looks like this monday you get your wish as the U.N. steps in with Nazrallah's pal Kofi Annan making sure the war stops. Of course if Hezbollah continues to launch missiles across the border into Israel, not even aiming at specific targets besides cities or platoons; I don't think Israel should honor this U.N. peace treaty in that case. It is easy to say "Israel should stop" but do you think Hezbollah will? Doubtful unless they fear killing and injuring U.N. peacekeepers. 
  Also about the tragic photos of the lebanese conflict: a large majority are fakes anyways so it isn't like we can trust what we see. when photographers are getting people to pose in order to amplify the tragedy of the conflict and adding things to photos and scenes... what does a picture I didn't take myself prove to me? 
Also~~ how long do you really want to keep this thread going? ...lol...

----------


## Remyisme

listen to this, nice song:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WxQcWNHmAo

----------


## Serbian_Wolf

Jews where killed by Hitler and Germany not by Palestine's wright? Why don't you give them a part of Germany instead of Palestine?  Saudi king Ibn-Saud told Roosvelt.  
I can do nothing else then totally agree whit him.  
Zionism and the "Arab Problem"  
The lure of Zionism blinded many to the fact that Palestine was already inhabited. By 1897, that 10,000 square mile area had been under Turkish rule for nearly four centuries and contained 600,000 people, 95% Arab (predominantly Muslim) and 5% Jews.5 By 1918, after the first two waves of Jewish immigration, the percentage of Jews rose to approximately 10%. Ownership of about half the land was in private Arab hands, 2.6% was privately owned by Jews, and while the remainder was State property under the Ottoman law, much of it had been farmed by generations of Arab villagers.  
The greatest moral challenge to Zionism was (and remains) that a seemingly noble, and to some, intensely spiritual, vision--the restoration of the Jewish people to their ancient homeland--could be fulfilled only at the expense of another people, the Arab inhabitants of Palestine. While a few Zionists accepted the fiction that Palestine was "a land without people" waiting for "a people without a land,"6 most were aware of an indigenous population, but argued that Jewish need and rights to a homeland Jews had been unjustly deprived of 1900 years earlier outweighed the claims of the Arabs. Others ignored the problem, their priority being to create a Jewish socioeconomic infrastructure in Palestine by encouraging immigration, acquiring land, building Jewish institutions, and developing the capacities of Jewish labor.  
If you want to read the whole Article here is the link.  http://www.soci.niu.edu/~phildept/Kapitan/history.html

----------


## SummerKiss

> Jews where killed by Hitler and Germany not by Palestine's wright? Why don't you give them a part of Germany instead of Palestine?  Saudi king Ibn-Saud told Roosvelt.  
> I can do nothing else then totally agree whit him.

  ::  what a good idea! 
Congratulations to everybody! The war is over....and Gog bless Lebanon.

----------


## DDT

How interesting! A Muslim and a Serb finally united .........against Jews!  ::    
Too bad your idea is a moot point since the movement for Israel to again be the Jewish homeland started long before Hitlers Germany.

----------


## Serbian_Wolf

Who's muslim???

----------


## DDT

Summer Kiss is.....! 
PS Nice avatar!

----------


## Serbian_Wolf

Ok!   ::   maybe so,but nevertheless it doesn't jusstify the actions. IT would be something like if todays Italy claimd the territories of the once Roman empire or the Turk's Ottoman empire.

----------


## Serbian_Wolf

Thank you!   ::

----------


## DDT

> Ok!    maybe so,but nevertheless it doesn't jusstify the actions. IT would be something like if todays Italy claimd the territories of the once Roman empire or the Turk's Ottoman empire.

 But the thing is the entire region was lost to Britain and her allies after the Ottoman Empire was defeated in 1917. If you object to Israel you must also object to Jordan. 
However no one objects to Jordan. Why?  
Because Jordan is falls under the Muslim unbrella 
Arabs live peacefully inside Israel and even have seats in the Knesset. Imagine this situation in reverse. Muslims would not tolerate a Jew in a leardership role. This is not about land Palestinians. This is about Islamic intolerance to non-Muslims.

----------


## Ramil

Jews found perhaps the only place in the world where everyone else wants to kill them all, as slowly and painfully as possible. Why didn't they settle for some other place, I wonder? 
Israel is arid and infertile place with bad climate. Why of all places, they've picked that tiny strip of land for the state.  
Or someone with a rather perverted sense of humor have picked the place for them  ::

----------


## SummerKiss

> Summer Kiss is.....!

 Hehe yeah...definitely

----------


## Serbian_Wolf

Well that's the old dilemma what's older the "Chicken or the egg"???   
The British claimed that Palestine was meant to be excluded from the area of Arab rule, as it is technically located west of Damascus: for obvious reasons the Zionists took the same position. The Arabs interpreted the letter as it reads: Lebanon, not Palestine, is to the west of Damascus and the other areas mentioned. 
In any case, the interests of the colonial powers took precedence over promises made to the Arabs. While accepting the principle of Arab independence laid down in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, the Sykes-Picot Agreement, signed by Britain, France and Russia in 1916, divided the area into zones of permanent colonial influence. The agreement recognized French interests in Greater Syria and northern Iraq, while acknowledging British designs on a belt of influence from the Mediterranean to the Gulf to protect its trade and communications links with the Indian subcontinent. The Sykes-Picot Agreement specified that most of Palestine was to be entrusted to an international administration. The agreement clearly contradicted the promises made to Sharif Hussein of Mecca. 
To further complicate matters, in a totally deceitful move British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour in 1917 issued a letter to a prominent British Jew, Lord Rothschild, promising Britain’s commitment and support for a Jewish home in Palestine. Known as the Balfour Declaration, the letter calls for the "establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people . . . it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine...”

----------


## Орчун

War is over.Hope this continues on...  ::

----------


## Ramil

> War is over.Hope this continues on...

 Don't worry, there are always good chances for another one.

----------

