# Forum About Russia Politics  Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

## Hanna

I made a comment earlier that I'd write a post about this. This is that post..  _
Ok, as I've mentioned before, I'm originally Swedish and my country (+the rest of Scandinavia) have quite strong links with the Baltic States. They belonged to Sweden for quite a while and there's always been trade and exchange. A relative of mine for instance, was born in Estonia. Sweden is currently the biggest investor in the Baltic States)._   *Regarding the status of Russian language and the treatment of Russians:* 
The Balts are idiots in this respect (sorry any Balts who read this).  
If they can't treat linguistic minorities in their countries right, then they should leave the EU!!    EU started as a peace project and it is totally against any form of discrimination for any reason.  
The EU knows that the Baltic states discriminate against Russian speakers. EU is trying to stop it, but perhaps not as strongly as is needed. (Frankly, there are some double standards and prejudice in Europe regarding Russia. As we know.) 
Improving the treatment of Russians in Balticum was actually a condition for these countries when they were going to join the EU. But it looks like it was "lip service" only. _(lip-service means you say you are going to do something, but then you don't do it...  Or you pretend to agree with something.. )_  
The best thing that could happen would be if Russian speakers in these countries *sued their government at the European Court in Strasbourg.* Then they would get attention to their situation and support from other parts of Europe. There are many minorities that would support this group out of principle.   What the Balts are doing is against European legislation.. For several reasons they are "getting away with it" right now.  
The other, more practical reason why this is wrong is shown by economic examples from modern European countries.  * Language / bilingual skills are GOOD for smaller countries* -- in particular if the language of a larger neighbour is spoken.   Luxembourg and Switzerland are the top examples of this. Switzerland and Luxembourg are among the very richest countries per capita in Europe. Their langauage policies have helped them greatly.  * Estonians really like Finland because it has a similar language*.  There are tons of Estonians in Finland... *While they are there they should look at how Finland treats the Swedish speaking minority* (just 10% of the population).   These 10% can completely ignore learning Finnish if they want to! They can get all their information and schooling in Swedish. They can work in a Swedish speaking environment if they really want to. All the regular Finns have to study Swedish in school for 4 years and can usually speak basic or good Swedish.    *This system is democratically chosen in Finland* because the Finns realise that it's beneficial. It means they can have strong ties and good relations with Sweden. The Finns are pretty disgusted at how Russians in the Baltic states are treated.  
The old Swedish ambassador to Moscow is currently running a* campaign to convince all Nordic leaders to put pressure* (economical, if needed) on the Baltic states to stop their blatant discrimination.)  In Scandinavia we go out of our ways to support the Saami people (native) and avoid any other  discrimination. We should not allow an area that we support financially to do this either,  
However the campaign is not getting as much attention as it ought to, and some people have started having prejudice against Russia (which, interestingly, they did not have during the USSR times... weird...)  
There was sympathy in Scandinavia for the Baltic states during USSR era because we knew that they had been incorporated into the USSR against the will of the majority. *But this is old news now* (=meaning it's no longer relevant)  and Baltikum was not exactly the third world anyway! They had a rather cushy position in the USSR, as I understand it. They had good educational facilities, several resorts and modern houses built for poor people.. In fact, I actually visited Latvia during USSR times and it seemed more or less like any other European state apart from less shops, restaurants and advertising.   As for their grievance against Russia: Yes, it's understandable, BUT ---  *these countries have practically ALWAYS been under foreign control*, throughout history. Sweden had them for quite a while -- Germany has also controlled them, and Poland too. Russia just happens to be the latest country to do it! 
They need to get over it and accept the situation as it is, including the fact that they have a Russian speaking minority. 
My country is in a position to put pressure on them and I hope Sweden, Finland and the rest of the EU will support the rights of this ethnic minority. Just like it is supporting national minorities elsewhere in Europe. Anything else would be horrible double standards.   _Tallinn bronze soldier, old location..._

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## Оля

What makes the problem even bigger, is that the Russian "minority" in the Baltic states is not quite a minority, in fact... Because 30% is much enough. 
Also, I have heard on TV that Russians can't get a job there if they don't know the official state language. Everyone MUST know it. You even must speak in it in cafés, shops and so on. I don't know if that's absolutely true, but I saw at least one piece of reporting on TV, and it was an incident in the Latvian or Estonian airport where some Russian asked for a cup of coffee (in Russian, of course), and... it provoked a scandal of some kind. I don't remember details now.   ::

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## Hanna

Well I think they can speak whatever language they want in shops, but there is a language requirement for most jobs, and more importantly, for citizenship.  The citizenship issue is particularly disturbing. The Russian speakers need Estonian citizenship to get a passport, which essentially means that without knowing Estonian, they cannot travel! Compare with Canada, Spain, Finland which have no such requirement for linguistic minorities.  I was in Tallinn in 2000 approx. and I heard plenty of Russian spoken. I seriously think about half of Tallinn might be Russian speakers.   *Here are some vids from both "sides"*:   
A story on this from Russian TV (in English). 
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkWkxueHw1I[/video:3pyk4mxf]  
Dual language news in Estonia (this is good sign!) Headlines on a day in Aug. 09
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk7ZXucMfXc[/video:3pyk4mxf]  
Estonian "Information Video" by someone with poor English skills. 
The message is that Russia is orchestrating troubles among Russian speaking Estonians.  
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cW-OLi1FVs[/video:3pyk4mxf]  
A comment by a Finn (native Swedish speaker!)  about "Soviet Story", a widely shown documentary from the Baltic States. I saw this film on TV somewhere and it's very hostile to Russia. I don't understand more than about half of what he's saying.. 
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzlAhQ81Bwk[/video:3pyk4mxf]  
Good example of the the type of reports that are that are shown across Western Europe. 
This is Deutsche Welle (German TV) in English. As you can tell, it's a bit suspicious of Russia. 
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5y3BFhtnYE[/video:3pyk4mxf]  
Some insane divers in Lithuania who speak a mix of Russian and Lithuanian: 
(I'm including it mostly because it's funny - he doesn't realise there is ice under the water... )
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MzGHO0bukY[/video:3pyk4mxf] 
A clip from something called Euronews (I don't know about this channel)
Integration of Russians in Estonia.
[video:3pyk4mxf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leHp5IJK0DA[/video:3pyk4mxf]

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## Оля

> I saw at least one piece of reporting on TV, and it was an incident in the Latvian or Estonian airport where some Russian asked for a cup of coffee (in Russian, of course), and... it provoked a scandal of some kind. I don't remember details now.

 Damn, I mixed up everyting!
Here's a TV report about that incident (unfortunately it's in Russian):
[video:37sqzpuf]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKCkGRhx2Uc[/video:37sqzpuf] 
Shortly, it was that some _Latvian_ asked a cup of coffee and a piece of cake in the Riga airport, and he was so angry that the barmaid spoke bad Latvian that he splashed his coffee in her face.

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## Ramil

> Also, I have heard on TV that Russians can't get a job there if they don't know the official state language.

 Olya, do you think it's possible to get a job in Russia if you don't know Russian? Officially, I mean? Russia too has a law that obliges every immigrant who wants to work here to know Russian. I think it's a right thing. You have to speak to other people if you work.

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## scotcher

It.s hardly a blak and white issue. 
The Baltic states are in breach of the rules they agreed to when they joined the EU. That's a scandal and what is a bigger scandal is the way the rest of the EU has largely turned a blind eye to the issue. 
On the other hand, the language requirements for citizenship are actually trivially easy. I've seen the exam papers and there's nothing in there that an averagely intelligent human being couldn't manage in a matter of a few weeks, and there are a whole raft of exemptions for elderly people or those with learning difficulties. The fact is that the vast majority of ethnic Russians have already done it and attained citizenship. Those that haven't aren't refusing because it's too onerous, but because they want to make a political statement. That is of course their right, but it's also their own choice. 
And lastly, it is supremely hypocritical of the Russian authorities and media to continually and hysterically complain that these states are failing to meet EU standards when the Russian state only holds itself to much, much lower standards in the first place. I would rather be a non-Latvian in Latvia than a non-Russian in Russia any old day of the week.

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## Оля

> Olya, do you think it's possible to get a job in Russia if you don't know Russian?

 Russia is not in the EU.   ::  
Then again, Wiki says that the most numerous ethnic minority in Russia makes 3%. Three is not thirty.

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## Hanna

> Originally Posted by Ramil  Olya, do you think it's possible to get a job in Russia if you don't know Russian?   Russia is not in the EU.   
> Then again, Wiki says that the most numerous ethnic minority in Russia makes 3%. Three is not thirty.

 Yes, exactly. We already know that Russia has alls sorts of problems that currently don't exist in the EU. That wasn't the point.  
The point is that the Baltic states have made certain commitments to the EU, and that they have ongoing obligations which they don't appear to be keeping. Also that there is quite a lot of agitation against the Russian minority which would be unthinkable in countries such as Spain, Finland, Belgium etc which also have linguistic minorities.  
Practically all countries in Europe have been invaded and occupied by a neighbour within the last few hundred years. In this case it happened while the allies were fighting Nazism.. Many countries have experienced much rougher times than the Baltic states did in the USSR. However the Balts are still acting the victim and exploiting old European fears about the "evilness" of Russia. In my view they are doing the rest of the EU a serious disservice. Poor relations with Russia is bad for everyone on our continent.  
What they ought to do is accommodate the Russian minority in any way possible and use them to create good relations with Russia. If indeed Russia is consciously manipulating this group (as is suggested in the videos above), then it probably wouldn't work if the group felt fully part of Latvia and appreciated/included despite the langauge problems.  The fully inclusive approach has worked extremely well for Finland and many other countries. I think also Kazakhstan. I don't know much about it, but it seems things are good for the ethic Russians there..(?)   *
It was pretty silly that the Riga airport (from the video that Olya posted) had signs in Latvian and English but not in Russian.* This is no doubt done deliberately. I bet at least 1/3 of flights from that airport are for Russia... Not to mention the 30% Russian-speaking Latvians. 
@scotcher - are you planning emigration to the Baltic states? (and naturalisation too!) Which country's test did you see?

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## scotcher

You find petty nationalism eveywhere, and it often has a linguistic aspect. Just this week the Slovakian government upset its own ethnic Hungarian minority by passing a law that restricts the use of Hungarian(or rather, promotes the use of Slovak, but it amounts to the same thing), and those are both EU countries with much less reason for mutual antagonism than the Baltic states and Russia. In fact given the history of the Baltic states I think it would be astounding if there_ wasn't_ a nationalistic drive to limit the use of Russian.    

> @scotcher - are you planning emigration to the Baltic states? (and naturalisation too!) Which country's test did you see?

 No, but I was in Latvia recently visiting friends and one of them (an ethnic Russian) had just sat the test, so he showed me his study materials and a sample test paper from last year.

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## Dogboy182

My favorite thing about the Baltic states is how they were the single biggest supporters of Nazi's outside of the 3rd Reich itself. Tens of thousands of willing Baltinians volunteered to join the SS hoe-down gun show party and to kill everyone that moved, yet they are the only countries (well, mostly Latvia and Lithuiana) who have never answered for their crimes and furthermore have monuments to these SS soldiers. Its even stranger that no one from the west even asks questions about this either. Though its known that divisions of Baltic SS death squads roamed Ukraine and Belrus' making shashlik of every peasant both sides of the Dnepr' till they were finally annexed into their rightful home and beatin into submission like the whiney temper-tamptrum throwing three year olds they love to act like.  
But hey we all make mistakes righ? Lets forgive them and let em right in to the EU. Yeah, I'd say thats my favorite thing about them there Baltic states.  
Oh and wtf they have bank holidays in Latvia? wtf?  
Sorry I just saw this thread and couldn't hold back. Grr  ::   ::   ::

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## scotcher

Jesus. I used to think you'd stop being a moron when you got a bit older, but apparently not.

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## Dogboy182

I used to think that most people had better things to do with their lives than check a forum 15 times a day and make pithy comments about other peoples opinions and personal experiences but, hey, apparently not.  
Some things never change old man, get over it.

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## Lampada

> I used to think that most people had better things to do with their lives than check a forum 15 times a day ...

 We are *not* like the most people, I think.    :"":

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## Hanna

> My favorite thing about the Baltic states is how they were the single biggest supporters of Nazi's outside of the 3rd Reich itself (...)

 Ok true, but remember, most of them did not know at the time, how truly bad the Nazis were... They just thought that they preferred Germany over the USSR. And after the war, from what I understand, the USSR sent those Baltic people who were known Nazis to very grim labour camps for many years before they were allowed to return. Some were shot I think.  
The sad thing is that there seems to be a lot of neo-nazis around in the Baltic states today and they really ought to do something about that.

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## Dogboy182

Well, apparently there are neo-nazi's in Russia too which makes absolutely no-nense. But that's another topic. 
I'm just saying, even if they preferred their German chums to the Russians, they still carried out their mass killings with a smile on their face. 
At any rate, I was mostly reminded of this http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/j ... _5-09.html 
When Bush (ok ok not the best example of a decent human being) visited the memorial to the Lithuanian (I think, it doesn't matter anyway) SS soldiers like a day before he went to Moscow.  
Anyways who cares. I spent 24 hours in Riga once once and it was 25 hours too much.

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## Hanna

> Bush (ok ok not the best example of a decent human being)

 In my opinion there are two things that makes him likeable (and it sure isn't his politics) 
1) he's a Christian
2) he used to be a gambler and alcoholic but he reformed...  
I checked your links to the PBS story. I get incredibly IRRITATED that America is meddling in this region which is CLEARLY in Russia's sphere of interest, or possibly the EUs.  Frankly this region is none of the US' business, and they are SO out of order to be meddling there.  
Russia allowed these countries to leave the union without any trouble. In connection with that, there was some kind of deal  or agreement between the US and Gorbachev that the US would not interfere in the the USSRs old sphere of influence...  But surprise, surprise; a few years later the US is out fishing for new NATO members in the exact area they promised to stay away from! And then we get the Georgia war where the US was involved up to its' ears. This was one of the worst cases of media manipulation I've seen in my entire life and it's very tragic that many sensible Europeans swallowed the American view without even considering other options.  
The US has meddled (politically and by military means) in Central Asia, Ukraine, Georgia and the Baltic States. Just like in the Cold war they are sponsoring media etc to influence people in this region. For instance "Radio Free Europe" which targets the ex-USSR area sounds like some kind of EU initiative, but it was in fact started by the CIA and is pushing the pro-US agenda in every way that it can.   
I don't dislike American people at all, in fact I like them a lot. I have a lot or respect for many things about the US. But I hate American meddling everywhere in the world and their darn military bases that are still around in Europe by the hundreds. (Luckily not in my native country fortunately, and for the record, I sure don't want any Russian bases there either.)

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## sperk

> But I hate American meddling everywhere in the world and their darn military bases that are still around in Europe by the hundreds.

 America is running an empire on borrowed money, it's just a matter of time...

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## Lampada

> Originally Posted by Johanna  But I hate American meddling everywhere in the world and their darn military bases that are still around in Europe by the hundreds.   America is running an empire on borrowed money, it's just a matter of time...

 Типун тебе на язык.     ::

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## Hanna

The bad relationhip between Russia and the Baltic States has a very disturbing result, even on the environment.  
The Russia --- Germany gas pipeline cannot go overland through the Baltic states and Poland, since Russia just doesn't trust the Baltic countries to be any more reliable with the gas than Ukraine has been.  
As a result the pipeline is planned to run under the Baltic Sea. 
The trouble is that this means construction is MUCH more expensive and* the risk of oil spills is greater* and the results of a leak more dangerous.  
Sweden and Finland don't want this pipeline in along our coastlines, but haven't got much to put up against either Germany or Russia... There is too much at stake.  If this trouble between the Baltic states and Russia did not exist and they had normal relations, then the pipeline could be run overland which is so much better. The Balts and Poland could even make some money on the transit fees. Also the underwater pipeline is going to increase the military tensions in the Baltic Sea again since the pipeline needs to be monitored and guarded.
Everybody loses - particularly the sea animals in case of accidents...    ::

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## Dogboy182

> 1) he's a Christian
> 2) he used to be a gambler and alcoholic but he reformed...

 And I really loved Lenin because he was an Atheist. 
And, I've met Bush (breifly). I actually serviced Air Force one about 2 years ago when it stopped here in England. 
At anyrate, his breath smelled like Whiskey. Sorry to tarnish your image of his clean Christian ways.

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## Hanna

One thing to mention about this is that the Estonians & co always brag about their knowledge of Russian as soon as they leave the country. They put it on their CV and generally mention it a lot..  I've also heard many Baltic people say that they LIKE the Russian language, litterature and film and that the Russian language training in the USSR days was very good. I don't know how/when/if younger people learn Russian nowadays, but in fact, all Baltic people I know speak Russian - probably fluently.  With all that in mind you might think that they might be able to be a bit more open-minded! 
I met an Estonian guy today who was a friend of a friend --  and I asked his opinion about this. He said that the real problem was that many of the Russian speakers in Estonia are criminals or unemployed and that they aren't interested in being part of society in Estonia. Since I don't know very much about the situation with criminality and unemployment in Estonia I couldn't say anything in response. This guy said that he personally didn't mind speaking Russian though.   
It doesn't help these Russians that the Baltic languages are REALLY strange and probably incredibly hard to learn. They're not Slavic languages and they're not Germanic either... I don't really know what they are. Estonian sounds a bit like Finnish and I am not too sure if I could tell Latvian and Lithuanian apart. I think it would be a really advantageous thing for these tiny countries if they were officially bilingual, like Luxembourg for instance. Too bad they are too narrowminded to think clearly at the moment.

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## nulle

There is a popular joke in Latvia.
"Ja Latvijā būs divas oficiālās valodas, tad tikai latvieši runās divās valodās."
"If there are two official languages in Latvia, then only Latvians will speak in two languages".
Soviet times were basically like that.

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## Marcus

> There is a popular joke in Latvia.
> "Ja Latvijā būs divas oficiālās valodas, tad tikai latvieši runās divās valodās."
> "If there are two official languages in Latvia, then only Latvians will speak in two languages".
> Soviet times were basically like that.

 Тогда Латвия была частью Советского Союза, где русский язык играл огромную роль. Сейчас это не так, поэтому такой ситуации не будет.

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## Marcus

> It doesn't help these Russians that the Baltic languages are REALLY strange and probably incredibly hard to learn. They're not Slavic languages and they're not Germanic either...

 Эстонский язык совершенно не похож на русский, а латышский и литовский довольно близки, по крайней мере в грамматике.

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## nulle

First week of collecting signatures to make russian official ended - and only ~11 000 people signed.
They need another ~130 000 signatures to start a referendum - looks like that most russians simply do not care about this issue.

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## Hanna

I started this thread before I had been to Latvia. The information that I had read was very much biased in favour of the Russian speakers, presenting them as a mistreated minority. What I noticed in Latvia was that the majority there are actually bilingual, and practically minded enough to make an effort to communicate with the other language group. I heard Latvians speak Russian and Russians speak Latvian. I heard a bit of complaints from both sides, but nothing radical. The country is not about to fall apart over this.  
On the petition that Nulle mentions: Well if the people concerned don't care about it, then neither do I.  *
I was certainly under the impression that they were being discriminated against,* linguistically, but too unused to democracy to figure out what to do about it. If these people are happy to speak Latvian in all situations, then that's fine by me.  
I read a Russian speaking newspaper in Latvia and they were rather laidback about the language issue, although it was mentioned a few times there was no big drama, just a concern about education in Russian. * PS - Nulle* _do you know any good online computer / electronics retailer in Latvia? I would like to buy something that I saw in Latvia that is not avaialble in Sweden.._

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## BappaBa

> First week of collecting signatures to make russian official ended - and only ~11 000 people signed.
> They need another ~130 000 signatures to start a referendum - looks like that most russians simply do not care about this issue.

 Куда пропал? Не хочешь назвать окончательное количество подписавшихся?

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## Marcus

> Не хочешь назвать окончательное количество подписавшихся?

 Сколько их по вашим данным?

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## Marcus

> I started this thread before I had been to Latvia. The information that I had read was very much biased in favour of the Russian speakers, presenting them as a mistreated minority. What I noticed in Latvia was that the majority there are actually bilingual, and practically minded enough to make an effort to communicate with the other language group. I heard Latvians speak Russian and Russians speak Latvian. I heard a bit of complaints from both sides, but nothing radical. The country is not about to fall apart over this.  
> On the petition that Nulle mentions: Well if the people concerned don't care about it, then neither do I.  *
> I was certainly under the impression that they were being discriminated against,* linguistically, but too unused to democracy to figure out what to do about it. If these people are happy to speak Latvian in all situations, then that's fine by me.  
> I read a Russian speaking newspaper in Latvia and they were rather laidback about the language issue, although it was mentioned a few times there was no big drama, just a concern about education in Russian. * PS - Nulle* _do you know any good online computer / electronics retailer in Latvia? I would like to buy something that I saw in Latvia that is not avaialble in Sweden.._

 Ну, это вы как-то необъективно говорите. Во-первых, я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат. Во-вторых, то, что люди могут говорить по-латышски, не исключает того, что им не нравится, когда их язык не уважают и стремятся вытеснить. Кроме того, не уважают историю, говорят, что они оккупанты и т. д. Но это не значит, что это для них вопрос жизни и смерти и что они из-за этого устроят восстание.

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## BappaBa

> Сколько их по вашим данным?

 ЦИК: есть данные о 183 000 подписей за русский язык - DELFI   

> К вечеру четверга Центральная избирательная комиссия располагала данными  о 183 046 подписей за проект поправок к Сатверсме, предусматривающих  введение второго государственного языка, сообщил глава ЦИК Арнис  Цимдарс.
> Между тем, для передачи проекта на рассмотрение Сейма и дальнейший референдум требуется только 154 379 подписей.

 Естественно, нацики в любом случае не допустят, чтобы русский язык стал вторым государственным.

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## Romik

> Ну, это вы как-то необъективно говорите. Во-первых, я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат. Во-вторых, то, что люди могут говорить по-латышски, не исключает того, что им не нравится, когда их язык не уважают и стремятся вытеснить. Кроме того, не уважают историю, говорят, что они оккупанты и т. д. Но это не значит, что это для них вопрос жизни и смерти и что они из-за этого устроят восстание.

 Если им не нравится языковая ситуация и интерпретация истории, то пусть едут в Россию, где всё правильно для них.

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## Crocodile

> Если им не нравится языковая ситуация и интерпретация истории, то пусть едут в Россию, где всё правильно для них.

 Это, конечно, логичное высказывание, но уж очень недальновидное, как мне представляется. Ибо вместо ожидаемой массовой эмиграции вполне можно получить сепаратизм, т.е. попытки создания национальной автономии на территории Латвии.  ::

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## Marcus

> более 180 000 *граждан* Латвии.

 Важный момент - неграждане не участвует, а они все как один русскоязычные.
Статья в википедии о негражданах Латвии: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%...2%D0%B8%D1%8F)

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## Romik

> Это, конечно, логичное высказывание, но уж очень недальновидное, как мне представляется. Ибо вместо ожидаемой массовой эмиграции вполне можно получить сепаратизм, т.е. попытки создания национальной автономии на территории Латвии.

 Ты хочешь что-бы они создали русскую автономию в Латвии  ::

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## Crocodile

> Ты хочешь что-бы они создали русскую автономию в Латвии

 Именно!  ::  На сегодняшний день подобные вопросы решаются именно так. Или в обществе худо-бедно достигается консенсус, или возникает сепаратизм в обнимку с терроризмом. Моральная сторона вопроса уже как бы решена, ибо "нацики".  ::

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## nulle

> Важный момент - неграждане не участвует

 Of course not - I'm not allowed to vote in Russia too...  

> я не уверен в цифрах Нулле, и это не окончательный результат

 It was a correct number after first week.
Most signatures were gathered during last week (more than 100 000) - after massive hate mongering campaign (probably financed by Kremlin). ir - Infografika: Parakstu vākšanas aktivitāte - you can see history here. 
I think that all this is stupid provocation - to destabilize situation - because everyone knows that there is exactly zero chance to win this referendum - even if every non-citizen is allowed to vote.
You need 750k votes, but there are not that many Russians here.
And Latvians will not vote for russian to be official - we remember soviet times too well...  http://rus.tvnet.lv/novosti/kommjent...idjeointjervju

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## Crocodile

> And Latvians will not vote for russian to be official - we remember soviet times too well...

 Well, since you're on that topic, would you be able to elaborate on how the recognition of Russian as another official language would resurrect the soviet times?  ::

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## Hanna

One funny thing that I heard several times was that each person spoke in his own language. 
So they could carry on a discussion like this for a while, in several cases, on the tram or once in a shop. 
But then if a Russian-speaking person from Russia, Ukraine etc happened to visit they would have a hard time convincing the Latvian speaker that they genuinely could not understand Latvian and had never studied it. Obviously a bit awkward. Several Russian speakers mentioned that this happened totheir relatives from Russia were visiting.  
My personal view is that both sides should make an effort to accommodate the other and try to leave the past behind. As a bilingual and Russian speaking EU country they have great opportunity to be a gateway between East and West.  
In Liepaja (see below) the language groups got on really well and it was completely impossible to guess who was Latvian and who was Russian. In Riga, the two groups were a bit more segregated from each other - that was my impression. In Daugavpils, everyone was Russian speaking.    
;

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## Eric C.

> Well, since you're on that topic, would you be able to elaborate on how the recognition of Russian as another official language would resurrect the soviet times?

 "What wasn't completed by our swords will be completed by our schools" (c) 
I may be mistaken with the exact wording, though.

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## Crocodile

> "What wasn't completed by our swords will be completed by our schools" (c)

 Huh? The Russian-speaking people in Latvia constitute the minority. That saying you mentioned should actually work the other way around.  ::

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## Eric C.

> Huh? The Russian-speaking people in Latvia constitute the minority. That saying you mentioned should actually work the other way around.

 Minorities happen to become majorities, especially when treated like they never could.

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## nulle

> One funny thing that I heard several times was that each person spoke in his own language.

 Like this  ::  GUSTAVO/Влади "No lupam lasi - глупо, но класс" - YouTube
I speak to my landlord like that all the time. And resort to russian ONLY when she does not understand anything at all what i'm saying (happens quite often).
Person who owns at least two apartments here is not a tourist and should know local language.  

> The Russian-speaking people in Latvia constitute the minority.

 They are not a minority in largest cities.
In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian. 
And about tourists:
It is simple - If someone asks me if I understand his language - I will assume that he is a tourist.
Otherwise I will assume that he is a local and answer in Latvian.

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## Romik

> Minorities happen to become majorities, especially when treated like they never could.

 Well, that happens, but is this illegal or contradicts the EU agenda?   ::

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## Marcus

> They are not a minority in largest cities.
> In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian.

 And their language is considered foreign.

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## Romik

> And their language is considered foreign.

 In Moscow - Tajik, Uzbek, Armenian, Georgian languages also are considered foreign, don't you mind it?  ::

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## Eric C.

> In Moscow - Tajik, Uzbek, Armenian, Georgian languages also are considered foreign, don't you mind it?

 
So, you're Russian, but don't pretty much like Moscow, right? =) 
PS. I'm NOT getting personal, just curious.

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## Eric C.

> Well, that happens, but is this illegal or contradicts the EU agenda?

 I wasn't saying it's illegal, but I guess it's kind of not very good for the former majorities. Moreover, in certain areas acting in the way to become a majority IS illegal for minorities.

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## Romik

> So, you're Russian, but don't pretty much like Moscow, right? =) 
> PS. I'm NOT getting personal, just curious.

 You seem not the one who can understand such kind of things.  
I'm Russian and I feel the same way to Moscow as normal Englishmen to London when it's flooded by foreign people with different culture.

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## Romik

> I wasn't saying it's illegal, but I guess it's kind of not very good for the former majorities. Moreover, in certain areas acting in the way to become a majority IS illegal for minorities.

 For the EU it's ok and going on exactly that way.
You can't say Somalis in Sweden like "Guys, it's unfair, your birth rate is three times more than the natives', keep equality!"   ::

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## Hanna

> For the EU it's ok and going on exactly that way.
> You can't say Somalis in Sweden like "Guys, it's unfair, your birth rate is three times more than the natives', keep equality!"

 Well, despite the sorry state of public health care in Sweden, it actually manages to maintain one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. 
The Somalis don't use birth control and where they came from has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world. 
The should adapt to the new circumstances, instead of continuing like they were still in Somalia. I think they should start wearing more European clothes as well. If they leave Africa because the situation there is bad, then they ought to try to change a bit to be more like the country they have moved to, in order to get a better life.

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## nulle

> I'm Russian and I feel the same way to Moscow as normal Englishmen to  London when it's flooded by foreign people with different culture.

 And the same way latvians feel to Latvia when it was flooded by foreign people in Soviet times making Latvians almost minority in their own country...

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## Marcus

During the Soviet period there were very many migrations. That's why in Latvia as well as in any other part of the Soviet Union there were many new people and many people left Latvia. It was very unfair not to give the citizenship even to the third generation automatically.

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## Hanna

> And the same way latvians feel to Latvia when it was flooded by foreign people in Soviet times making Latvians almost minority in their own country...

 Was that comment really necessary?  Remember we are here to help each other...
At some level you have to like Russian language or culture, or you wouldn't be at this forum. If I am wrong about that, then maybe a nationalistic Latvian forum would be better. I am not saying this because I think I am a perfect forum member myself. But I think we have had lots of discussions about everything that's been happening between Latvia and Russia/USSR and at some level this is a Russian forum after all, so let's be a bit polite.

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## Eric C.

> Was that comment really necessary?  Remember we are here to help each other...
> At some level you have to like Russian language or culture, or you wouldn't be at this forum. If I am wrong about that, then maybe a nationalistic Latvian forum would be better. I am not saying this because I think I am a perfect forum member myself. But I think we have had lots of discussions about everything that's been happening between Latvia and Russia/USSR and at some level this is a Russian forum after all, so let's be a bit polite.

 That comment was necessary to fight the hypocrisy which arises on here from time to time. You can't actually say "I don't stand for immigrants flooding the country with their culture, except for the immigrants X". Think about it.

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## nulle

> It was very unfair not to give the citizenship even to the third generation automatically.

 They got the best apartments outside of normal queue (which they were allowed to keep) - while latvians had to live in communal apartments, and  also many other privileges (like special shops where you could buy deficit goods that were unavailable to locals) at that time - Was this fair?
And people who are born in independent Latvia (after 1991) to non-citizens can get citizenship if their parents wish so (they just have to fill some forms and that's all - I bet that Russian TV channels that say that Latvia is a fascistic country - does not tell you this.).   

> and many people left Latvia.

 Yes, they run away from occupying red army and fleed to the West.  

> At some level you have to like Russian language or culture, or you wouldn't be at this forum.

 Russian culture is one thing - I'm not against it.
Occupation by foreign army and ethnic cleansing - another... 
Hanna - I have visited Latvian nationalist forums.
And many of them (most radical) think that all soviet time migrants should be deported from Latvia.
The same thing that Chechens did to Russians in their own country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#Demographics
From 23% to 3% in 20 years. 
My views are too moderate for them...   

> You can't actually say "I don't stand for immigrants flooding the  country with their culture, except for the immigrants X". Think about  it.

 Yes Hanna - it is hypocritical that you do not like Somalis and afghans which your democratically elected government allowed in your country.
But you do not have anything against people that were intentionally sent to Latvia by totallitarian occupying power to weaken and oppress our country.

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## Marcus

> that were intentionally sent to Latvia by totallitarian occupying power to weaken and oppress our country.

 They were invited by Latvian government in order to help Latvia to build its economy. They all worked, built a lot of things in Latvia, they've always paid taxes. After 1991 they were discriminated during privatization, there were more unemployed among them.

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## nulle

> They were invited by Latvian government in order to help Latvia to build its economy

 Yes - and Red army liberated us in WW2.
This "Latvian government" was just Kremlin puppets and could not do anything that Moscow did not like - otherwise - death sentence (under Stalin), imprisonment or if you were lucky - you got fired and replaced by person that was loyal to occupants.

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## Marcus

> This "Latvian government" was just Kremlin puppets and could not do anything that Moscow did not like - otherwise - death sentence (under Stalin), imprisonment or if you were lucky - you got fired and replaced by person that was loyal to occupants.

 Modern Latvian government are American puppets.

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## Eric C.

> Modern Latvian government are American puppets.

 Oh c'mon, why are there so many Russians wishing to start back the cold war?

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## nulle

> Modern Latvian government are American puppets.

 Last time Latvia declared neutrality - it got 50 years long occupation.
So this time Baltic states chose to be part of NATO military alliance.  

> Oh c'mon, why are there so many Russians wishing to start back the cold war?

 Because it is benefical for Russia's rulers to say that there are only enemies around Russia.

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## Marcus

> Because it is benefical for Russia's rulers to say that there are only enemies around Russia.

 They don't say like that.

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## Romik

> And the same way latvians feel to Latvia when it was flooded by foreign people in Soviet times making Latvians almost minority in their own country...

 That were others times, there were strategic things, anyway you had to be occupied if not by Russia then it would be another one. And if you didn't happen to be a minor you would do the same thing.
You weren't annihilated, you had your state, your population grew. Now you are free and disappear ...

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## Romik

> Modern Latvian government are American puppets.

 You seem hypocritical, you want Central Asians to be Kremlin puppets but mind Baltics to be American.

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## Romik

> Well, despite the sorry state of public health care in Sweden, it actually manages to maintain one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world. 
> The Somalis don't use birth control and where they came from has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the world.

 Yeah Sweden is good for them.  ::    

> The should adapt to the new circumstances, instead of continuing like they were still in Somalia. I think they should start wearing more European clothes as well. If they leave Africa because the situation there is bad, then they ought to try to change a bit to be more like the country they have moved to, in order to get a better life.

 This is wishful thinking but they don't break your laws wearing their clothes and carrying on their customs. They are desired but they don't have to adapt as you like.

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## Crocodile

> Minorities happen to become majorities, especially when treated like they never could.

 Would you be able to be more specific with: "when treated like they never could?" What does it mean?

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## Crocodile

> They are not a minority in largest cities.
> In Rīga and Daugavpils you can easily live using only Russian.

 You see, in Quebec or Montreal you can live easily using only French, and in Toronto and Vancouver you can live easily using only English. However, both English and French are official languages in Canada. So, no contradiction here.  
Also, I was kind of expecting an explanation from you on how the introduction of Russian as a second official language would bring back the Soviet times. So, would you kindly be able to explain? 
I mean, I got some 'school' explanation from Eric, and I'm open to that discussion, but since you were the one who played out the 'Soviet times' card, I think you should be responsible to elaborate your opinion upon request, won't you agree?  ::

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## Eric C.

> Would you be able to be more specific with: "when treated like they never could?" What does it mean?

 When the minorities get enough rights to bring them upon the majorities, and make them losers in their own game, mainly.

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## Crocodile

> When the minorities get enough rights to bring them upon the majorities, and make them losers in their own game, mainly.

 Do you have an example from the real life you might be referring to? I mean, a political example at least somewhat similar to the situation in context.

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## Hanna

> Yes Hanna - it is hypocritical that you do not like Somalis and afghans  which your democratically elected government allowed in your country.
> But you do not have anything against people that were intentionally sent  to Latvia by totallitarian occupying power to weaken and oppress our  country.

 _Call me a racist if you want, but yes - I would happily switch 1 Somali for 5 Russians in my country because the Russians could fit and have a lot more in common with the rest of the population and could contribute more to the economy. In fact, there are quite a lot of Russians around, judging from how oftern I hear it spoken in Stockholm. We are all Europeans, I don't see a problem, it's the same as with the intra EU migration.   
As for people getting apartments from the queue, yes - I would get one in 7 years with my queue current position..... While the immigrants jump straight to the front of the queue, particularly if they have more children than they can afford... My grandparents worked to build up this system which now benefits mostly immigrants. 
Oh well!!!! Fortunately I can afford to buy a flat soon, if I stay here, but not everyone is so lucky.  
As for what happened or not after the 2nd world war  - it is not for me to say. 
Personally I think that the Red Army should have withdrawn from the Baltic States, or held a referendum to ch_eck_ what people wanted. But as we all know, referendums were neither recommended by the ideology.... neither was it Stalin's style.... And all this was 65 years ago. Time to move on...._

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## Eric C.

> Do you have an example from the real life you might be referring to? I mean, a political example at least somewhat similar to the situation in context.

 It's been happening all around, just give it a good look. I'd avoid talking about particular cases to maintain political correctness.

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## Hanna

Croc -  positive discrimination for some jobs, lowering the requirements so ethnic minorities can become policemen or firemen etc. Immigrants jumping to the front of the queue for state apartments because they are somehow more worthy than the citizens of the actual country in question. These types of things create resentment. Not sure if Canada does that but it happens a fair bit around Europe.

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## Pavelov

> _Call me a racist if you want, but yes - I would happily switch 1 Somali for 5 Russians in my country because the Russians could fit and have a lot more in common with the rest of the population and could contribute more to the economy. In fact, there are quite a lot of Russians around, judging from how oftern I hear it spoken in Stockholm. We are all Europeans, I don't see a problem, it's the same as with the intra EU migration.   
> As for people getting apartments from the queue, yes - I would get one in 7 years with my queue current position..... While the immigrants jump straight to the front of the queue, particularly if they have more children than they can afford... My grandparents worked to build up this system which now benefits mostly immigrants. 
> Oh well!!!! Fortunately I can afford to buy a flat soon, if I stay here, but not everyone is so lucky.  
> As for what happened or not after the 2nd world war  - it is not for me to say. 
> Personally I think that the Red Army should have withdrawn from the Baltic States, or held a referendum to ch_eck_ what people wanted. But as we all know, referendums were neither recommended by the ideology.... neither was it Stalin's style.... And all this was 65 years ago. Time to move on...._

 Yes, why can't you criticize your own government?    Sweden and other 'EU' countries are just as bad as the Soviet and post-Soviet.   In fact, the policies of countries like Sweden are destroying their own countries in order to profit via banks and special interest groups.    
At least, the Baltic countries and now Russians are protesting.   Swedes an other EU citizens sit on their hands and do nothing. 
Personally, I think the citizens of the Baltic citizens should direct any complaint against both governments since both want that friction and division.    But, they are similar so any hostility is pointless unless directed towards the Governments who want the conflict.

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## Hanna

Of course I critisize my useless government!!
Just not in a Russian forum, and normally mostly to my countrymen....

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## Romik

> Of course I critisize my useless government!!
> Just not in a Russian forum, and normally mostly to my countrymen....

 Hanna I thought in Sweden people are more able to influence on the policy. Why the society wouldn't elect those who will first of all care about their own people instead of sheltering every other?

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## Ramil

> Hanna I thought in Sweden people are more able to influence on the policy. Why the society wouldn't elect those who will first of all care about their own people instead of sheltering every other?

 A common misconception. No society can elect a decent and honest leader. Any leader will be either inept or corrupt or both. This is universal.

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## Crocodile

> It's been happening all around, just give it a good look. I'd avoid talking about particular cases to maintain political correctness.

 Oh, come on!  ::  In politics, unless you have a sound case beefed up with some good examples, you would be named a populist or a demagogue, agree? Instilling concerns without proper justification supported by some convincing precedents is essentially obscuring the reality and is called mystification. A very well-known and time-proven technique practiced by Shamanism.  ::  And we're talking about a very noticeable slice of Latvian population. So noticeable, that we can't even agree if they are a minority or a majority. 
After all, what does it mean 'an official language?' That means that should a citizen request a government service in either of the official languages, the government is obliged by law to provide that service to him or her. That is all to it. It does not mean all schools have to switch to Russian and forget about Latvian. Below please find a partial list of countries which had adopted several official languages. Please, notice that in neither of those countries there's a concern of going back to the Soviet times:  ::  
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic (several municipalities have official bilingualism: Czech and Polish)
Kosovo
Luxembourg (three official languages)
Malta
Cameroon
Chad
Burundi 
Kenya
Rwanda  
In fact, in my opinion, adoption of Russian as a second official language and subsequently granting a citizenship status to the Russian-speaking community in Latvia has NOTHING TO DO with going back to the Soviet times. Unless, of course, _nulle_ would finally wake up and clearly explain otherwise.  
Having said that, I can definitely recognize there are _cultural_ wars going on in Latvia. Not resurrection of the Soviet times, but purely _cultural_ debate. And using _political_ means in a _cultural_ debate, in my opinion, is at the very least a dishonest practice. It's more or less like saying: "Oh, your favourite book is more popular than mine, so I'm going to call the publisher and blackmail him, so he would stop publishing your favourite book." Does it make sense?

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## Hanna

> Hanna I thought in Sweden people are more able to influence on the policy. Why the society wouldn't 
>  elect those who will first of all care about their own people instead of sheltering every other?

 _Rant warning! Don't ask me any more questions about this, I don't want to rant any more lol!!! _ 
<Begin Rant>Actually, it's a very strange political phenomenon. All the "internationalism" and pro-immigration views started in the 1970s under a particular prime minister who was "internationalist" as an extension of his socialist views. He got everyone with him in the political climate of the time. Anyone escaping right wing dictatorships could come to Sweden... At the time, Sweden was very rich and needed workers, so it was not a problem. This was politically fashionable and uper-idealistic with lots of singing Kumbaya and internationale... Media was 100% for it and people thought that the foreigners were interesting. And they gave SO much in foreign aid, it's mind boggling to think about. All this just continued and still today, it's impossible to say anything serious against immigration or foreign aid- you'd be labelled an racist and ostracized. My view is that each nation is responsible for its own citizens and maybe helping out its neighbours. To allow people from all over the world to arrive and support them financially is just stupid.
<Rant++>We are giving foreign aid to China, the worlds 2nd biggest econonomy, and the Chinese are buying our factories. How insane is that???? First the state bails out these companies, then the Chinese buys them...! Apparently the idea of the foreign aid is to support democracy in China... I don't even care about that. This country is so retarded I am not sure I actually want to live here. There'll be nothing left for my grandchildren, we're just giving it away to Somalis, Afghanis and rich Chinese... <end Rant>

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## mishau_

*В Латвии Деда Мороза оштрафовали за дискриминацию государственного языка*  
Организаторы праздника с участием Деда Мороза из Великого Устюга были оштрафованы за дискриминацию государственного языка.   В Латвии Деда Мороза оштрафовали за дискриминацию государственного языка | Европа | Deutsche Welle | 03.01.2012

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## Hanna

Actually I think that Nulle has some good points regarding Latvia during the Soviet times. 
I mean, the bit about Russians getting superior housing in Latvia, and some cultural or language insensitivites.  
But: That was over 20 years ago and this is a forum about Russian language and culture primarily. Russians during this period did not treat Latvia any worse than it treated Russia itself. Let's move on. 
But there is certainly no confusion regarding what the Baltic people think about having been part of the USSR and nobody will leave this forum with any doubt about that... 
And I want to mention that I've actually made a new friend who happens to be Latvian (but she speaks Swedish too). I told her about my interest in Russian language and she offered to help. She said that she is really glad she can speak Russian because it's really helpful in her life. She also said she doesn't blame modern Russia or Russian people for things that happened 50 years ago.

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## nulle

> Организаторы праздника с участием Деда Мороза из Великого Устюга были оштрафованы за дискриминацию государственного языка.

 Yes - I heard about this.
Sometimes National Language Center goes too far - this was a pretty stupid decision...  

> Russians during this period did not treat Latvia any worse than it treated Russia itself.

 The problem is with people like this one: TV5: Krievu fašists par latviešu valodu - YouTube 
Who still think that Latvian independence is some kind of historical error and want USSR and their privileges back.  

> she doesn't blame modern Russia or Russian people for things that happened 50 years ago.

 I also do not blame them - except those who think that Stalin and what he did was right.

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## Marcus

> I mean, the bit about Russians getting superior housing in Latvia, and some cultural or language insensitivites.

 And what did this superiority consist of? What made Russians superior over Latvians?

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## nulle

Immigrants from Soviet Union did not need to learn local languages - Russian was enough and only Latvians needed to know both.
Also as I said - immigrants got apartments outside of normal queue.
Soviet ideology was basically the same as in Nazi Germany.
Only "master race" were Russians not Germans.

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## Lampada

> ...Soviet ideology was basically the same as in Nazi Germany.
> Only "master race" were Russians not Germans.

 It's not true basically, but you entitled to your opinion.

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## Marcus

> Immigrants from Soviet Union did not need to learn local languages - Russian was enough and only Latvians needed to know both.

 Latvians could understand Russians, while Russians did not understand Latvians - Latvians had an advantage!

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## mishau_

> Soviet ideology was basically the same as in Nazi Germany.

 Not the same, otherwise the Baltics wouldn't stll worship the German SS.  20100226110101.jpg

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## nulle

> It's not true basically, but you entitled to your opinion.

 Maybe in Russia it was not true (russian speakers were "master race" after all).
But in occupied territories it was like that.
Soviet long term goal was to make russian speaking "soviet nation".
And looks like they already succeeded in Belarus. 
Mishau - what does http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuperjanov_Battalion have to do with nazis?

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## mishau_

ss_galichina.jpg

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## nulle

Mishau - looks like you do not like Putin - but you are repeating his propaganda here...

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## Marcus

> Only "master race" were Russians not Germans

 That's why the Soviet Union was ruled by a Georgian for many years.

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## Hanna

I am almost certain that the Soviet Union made a very big issue out of promoting the idea that it was a union of quite different states.  
And to say that the USSR was fascist like is just crazy talk - nobody hated fascism more.  
I think the USSr actually tried to make a point out of recognizing the local countries. 
I remember it from watching some kids stuff from there in my childhood and I found it very fascinating to have a massive country that was made up of different peoples. My country was not like that - everyone was the same back then. Remember watching programs with Soviet kids in national costumes etc -- I had a big fascination for such costumes as a child so I still remember it to this day. Something about a puppet that visited children across the USSR. And there was talk about "we are a big family" and lots of idealistic concepts like that.  
Perhaps it was the Russians that had the last word, and Russian language used as the main language, but it definitely seemed like the tried to value all the different cultures and teach kids about it. At any rate, lots of other countries have done a much worse job of it. 
It would be interesting with a thread about minority people in Russia, for example. I still find the idea of one country-many nationalities very fascinating.

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## Marcus

> Perhaps it was the Russians that had the last word

 No.  

> and Russian language used as the main language

 Yes. There had to be a common language, Russian was bigger than all the other taken together. But other languages were supported.

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## mishau_

> Soviet long term goal was to make russian speaking "soviet nation".

 No it's your wishful thinking. Soviet long term goal was totally different. "A spectre is haunting _Europe_-the spectre of _Communism" - the author is?_ 
Please read some history books first in order not to seem so ignorant. You could start with Second International for instance, though I don't think you'll ever bother -- much easier to throw uneducated inventions here.

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## Hanna

> "A spectre is haunting _Europe_-

 I think Latvians would rather give their whole country to the USA as a vassal state and sell themselves as slaves to international capitalism, than read a single word written by that particular author, or even look at the front page of the book in question...

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## Marcus

> I think Latvians would rather give their whole country to the USA as a vassal state and sell themselves as slaves to international capitalism

 They have already done it.

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## Eric C.

> I think Latvians would rather give their whole country to the USA as a vassal state and sell themselves as slaves to international capitalism, than read a single word written by that particular author, or even look at the front page of the book in question...

 In the nowaday world, those who are not "slaves of international capitalism" are slaves of hunger, thirst and cold weather. It's good and very convenient to speak out on how evil those corporations and businesses are while you in fact use them everyday to maintain the basics of your life. Go move to a third world country and live on up to $3 a day, then you can say how much you enjoy being out of the "big greedy filthy capitalism".

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## Hanna

I am currently a slave to international capitalism, but under decidedly better conditions than those that manufacture the goods that my employer sells. They work in Bangladesh and similar places for a few dollars a day. Should I be satisfied with the unfairness of that? 
With pollution, greed and exploitation? *I choose the red pill!*  
Ok, just to give an example that's relevant, and an alternative. People in the USSR for example, did *not* work international corporations and they had an acceptable standard of living for a few decades, as far as I know. 
Even though they were not rich, they were also relatively free from worries about job and housing, I think. They had free healthcare, good education and decent holidays. That's more than many in the USA, for example.  
What if that had ended differently and they would have continued to improve their standard of living like in the 1960s? It is not entirely unfeasible. With better leadership, that might have happened.  
Giving up and giving in to corporations and international capitalism is not the _only_ option. T
There are alternative movements today - ecological, religious etc. 
We do not have to be slaves to capitalism.  
And what happened with the Latvians and the other Balts the minute the USSR disintegrated? Every corporation in Scandinavia cooked up an idea of how to profit from the new situation and the fact that the Balts were in really dire straits. And the Germans too. 
Cheap textile production, foreigners bought their property there for bargain prices, outsourcing of programming... buying their antiques and art for prices below the real value, you name it. Previously honest Baltic people became crooks and ruthless criminals.  
I am not so sure how much more dignified their situation really is, compared to in the Soviet  past. I guess they are more pleased with the situation and that's what matters. But Latvia for example is in terrible debt, up to their ears with the IMF etc. All the Scandinavian banks opened up there, and in my opinion did not behave very ethically. Before, they were part of the Soviet* Union*, now they are part of the European *Union*. Both of these are superstates that limit national freedom. The European court can overrule any Latvian court. The European Union itself is not democratic in the way that it is governed. It's a meritocratic bureacracy. Whether there is really more democracy now is debatable.  
 I saw some seriously poor people in Latvia. They would probably have had a much more dignified lifestyle in the USSR. I visited Jurmala before the end of the USSR, in my childhood - it was a bit grey and no good shops. But there wer no beggars or dirt-poor people around. And I think many buildings were in a better state of repair. The feeling I strongly recall was of coming from a small country to a superpower country, similar to visiting some part of the USA perhaps. Now, when visiting Latvia, the feeling is quite different.  
It's a shame about the military bases and excessive Soviet military installations in the Baltic states. It's really ugly and can totally sympathise that the Balts must have hated having them there. I would have.

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## heartfelty

(Deleted. L.)

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## Marcus

The population of Latvia has decreased significantly, many people have left the country since the fall of the USSR. But the unemployment is very high. How can it be?

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## Eric C.

> The population of Latvia has decreased significantly, many people have left the country since the fall of the USSR. But the unemployment is very high. How can it be?

 Do you know why "there was no unemployment in the USSR"? That's very well covered in that old Soviet joke, "How come the Soviet people know no unemployment? Because everyone has something to do - the first one builds something, the second one takes down what the previous one has built, the third one rebuilds what the previous one has taken down, etc."

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## Eric C.

> Austerity.  Everywhere that austerity went, recession was sure to go. 
> General situation in Europe.  Austerity pushed onto peripheral states has lead to slowdowns/recessions/depressions.  This is a political action to shape the future of Europe.

 Hmm... Sure, if you throw off your money, it will help.

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## nulle

> than read a single word written by that particular author, or even look at the front page of the book in question...

 Latvians were force-fed all this commie bullshit long enough - and reality shows that communism DOES NOT WORK.   

> They have already done it.

 How? There are no privileged migrants from USA, Americans do not deport or execute anyone, they do not forcefully conscript Latvians and send them to war, they do not go and take away our land or property. (Unlike Russia in 1940s)   

> But the unemployment is very high. How can it be?

 Many people are working illegally (especially in rural areas) or abroad (in Schengen area there are no border controls) and are not informing government about it - so this number is not very accurate.  

> very fascinating to have a massive country that was made up of different peoples

 All enslaved under Russian fascists.  

> But there wer no beggars or dirt-poor people around.

 Of course not - they were immediately arrested by police (also Jūrmala was a popular tourist resort at that time (High-ranking Communist party officials liked to spend holidays there)).  

> But Latvia for example is in terrible debt, up to their ears with the  IMF etc. All the Scandinavian banks opened up there, and in my opinion  did not behave very ethically.

 Thanks to crooks from Tautas Partija (they are no longer in government) (we were not the only one - Greece has the same problem).
No - Scandinavian banks are fine - Russian on the other hand are a completely different matter.
One month ago Bankas Snoras in Lithuania and Latvijas Krājbanka in Latvia went bankrupt because of criminal actions of their owner Vladimir Antonov (Russian criminal).
Problems with Parex (also an "eastern investment") also increased the debt.
That's why "investment from the East" is not healthy - I hope our new government will realize that.

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## nulle

> Austerity pushed onto peripheral states has lead to slowdowns/recessions/depressions.

 So - problems caused by reckless spending should be fixed with even more reckless spending?   

> Before, they were part of the Soviet* Union*, now they are part of the European *Union*.

 Only this time it was our decision to join the EU - they did not send tanks here.  

> Even though they were not rich

 Of course - commie occupants robbed them.
My grandparents lost everything when they were deported to Siberia.
Many people who returned form Siberia later found their former houses and flats already occupied by "liberators" and were forced to live in communal flats instead. (only in 1990s they (or their descendants) got their properties back if they lived long enough). 
Now I'm planning to start my own business - 30 years ago commies would throw me in a prison for that.   

> It's a shame about the military bases and excessive Soviet military installations in the Baltic states.

 Of course - it was an occupied territory after all - local "burgeous nationalists" and "fascists" needed to be kept in check.
And Hanna - you said that beach in Liepāja was nice - in Soviet Times most of Kurzeme's beaches were off-limits to everyone except military (trespassers were shot) - to prevent people escaping to dirty, burgeous, capitalistic Sweden.

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## Marcus

> Many people are working illegally (especially in rural areas) or abroad (in Schengen area there are no border controls)

 Those who work abroad can't be counted as working people in Latvia.

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## mishau_

> Only this time it was our decision to join the EU - they did not send tanks here.

 Почему люди считают, что старны Балтики должны быть чем-то лучше Афганистана, Ирака и Ливии? В конце концов, вхождение Прибалтики в состав СССР не противоречило международным правилам на тот момент, и было признано всеми странами, включая США. В отличие, скажем, от вторжения в Ирак, которое ООН не санкционировал. Думаю мы можем поставить Балтийские страны и страны востока в один ряд - если раньше над Прибалтикой глумился Советский Союз, то теперь будет глумиться США. Особенно, если принять во внимание, что страны Восточное Европы, включая Балтику, считаются в ЕС странами второго сорта.

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## Marcus

Сама Латвия участвовала в куче агрессивных войн: в Ираке, Афганистане и т. д. Или поддерживали их в НАТО. Вопрос: у них были какие-то интересы в Ираке, или они очень боялись Саддама Хусейна?

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## Eric C.

> Почему люди считают, что старны Балтики должны быть чем-то лучше Афганистана, Ирака и Ливии? В конце концов, вхождение Прибалтики в состав СССР не противоречило международным правилам на тот момент, и было признано всеми странами, включая США. В отличие, скажем, от вторжения в Ирак, которое ООН не санкционировал. Думаю мы можем поставить Балтийские страны и страны востока в один ряд - если раньше над Прибалтикой глумился Советский Союз, то теперь будет глумиться США. Особенно, если принять во внимание, что страны Восточное Европы, включая Балтику, считаются в ЕС странами второго сорта.

 Would you mind describing how they are gonna do that? Exile Latvians to Alaska/Guantanamo? Take away their property? Have Americans eventually settle down in their houses?

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## mishau_

> Take away their property?

 Just destroy their property as we see in other contries.   

> Exile Latvians to Alaska/Guantanamo?

 For those ones who will dare resist why not.

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## nulle

> Those who work abroad can't be counted as working people in Latvia.

 Yes - if they inform our government - but many choose not to.

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## Hanna

> Особенно,  если принять во внимание, что страны Восточное Европы, включая Балтику,  считаются в ЕС странами второго сорта.

 Ok, I obviously don't think that, or I wouldn't be studying an Eastern European language. I don't think most people feel that way. In IT at least, we know that the Eastern European collegues are usually first class.  
However,  in the 90s I did, for a while. At the time it seemed that everyone in  Eastern Europe had just lost every sense of dignity in the pursuit of  dollars... Of course, I did not know just how desperate their situation  there situation was. And probably, the great majority never did this.  But it was like Jekyll and Hyde transformation.... I had believed that  Eastern Europeans were clever people, idealistic about socialism for the  most part, and lived very peaceful lives. And then suddenly every  Eastern European you meet is a crook!  
In exactly that vacuum,  the EU started emerging on the scene as a new political power (it became  a "union") and it was time for my country to join. I was active  together with lots of friends at Uni. Something had to  replace the ideological and power vacuum that the early 90s had created,  and for many, the EU was that entity. 
I am not sure what to make  of the situation now. Eastern Europeans are as intelligent and hardworking as everyone else in Europe, possibly more so, in some cases. But their countries are used as cheap  manufacturing locations, for outsourcing and as a source of manpower for  jobs that are hard to fill in Western Europe. This is not what my  friends and I envisaged at all. But at the same time it is really good that the "iron curtain" is gone and all Europeans can travel and interact freely.    

> Почему  люди считают, что старны Балтики должны быть чем-то лучше Афганистана,  Ирака и Ливии? В конце концов, вхождение Прибалтики в состав СССР не  противоречило международным правилам на тот момент, и было признано  всеми странами, включая США. В отличие, скажем, от вторжения в Ирак,  которое ООН не санкционировал.

 Yes, I think there is no  difference between the behaviour of the USA & co in the Middle East.  Possibly they are worse. As stated, what happened in the Baltic States  was agreed in the peace negotiations between the allies after the war,  if I am not mistaken. How ethical such an agreement is, is another story  though. But no country refused to acknowledge the annexation.  
And  in the case of Latvia, I think the bases were probably ok while they  were still active. It's what happened after that, that is disturbing. And the fact that they were there against the will of the locals. Similar to Afghanistan now.  
 I  saw some families living in squalor. I would not surprise me if these  places were deliberately abandoned on purpose, by everyone in power. The  families still living there are probably those with nowhere else to go.  It was rather sad. In Daugavpils I saw a massive EU project to do with  renovating an old fortress. Next to the fortress lived a group of  Russian speaking EU citizens in miserable conditions...
I don't care  about renovating some fortress!! I would like to see my tax money used to  have those people re-housed and in a job training program, or  repatriated to Russia in a dignified way, if Latvia is not prepared to  support them.  

> Of course - it was an occupied territory after all - local "burgeous nationalists" and "fascists" needed to be kept in check. And Hanna - you said that beach in Liepāja was nice - in Soviet Times  most of Kurzeme's beaches were off-limits to everyone except military  (trespassers were shot) - to prevent people escaping to dirty, burgeous,  capitalistic Sweden.

 Well, the situation with that beach seems a bit unclear. I was told lots of different stories about whether the beach was closed or not. People who grew up there in Soviet times talked about having played on the beach in their childhood, so clearly some parts of it had been open, at least. I think it was only a small part of the beach that was closed off. There was a very nice park and a sanatorium located exactly where the military zone was supposed to start. Seems like a strange location.  
Ok back to Latvia = lots of old radar towers, and a few lookout towers to keep track of what was going on in town were still around. Plus a large military town, called "Karosta"  - this was definitely closed off, all the signs of this were still visible although the town was in a very sorry state.  
Here is an intersting fact. When I was in Karosta I saw a few guys out running who looked completely out of place. They looked _very much_ like American marines although I did not hear them speak. They ran into what looked like a military complex but it has no marks to say what it was. Hm!?  
The Baltic people who got asylum in Sweden during the Cold war, were  mostly crooks, sadly. The first wave of people that left in 1945 were  just regular farmers etc. Some were native Swedish speakers. Good people. But after that, most of the  people that left were in trouble with law and didn't fancy a Soviet  prison.... That was the popular opinion at that time, anyway. When they  came to Sweden they could claim political asylum, and to some extent the  USSR was probably happy to see them go.

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## Seraph

> So - problems caused by reckless spending should be fixed with even more reckless spending?

  You are making a false dilemma.  Either austerity or reckless spending.  This is incorrect.

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## nulle

At least in Latvia there were two options - spend (recklessly) as previous government (unsustainable in long term) or cut spending (austerity) to keep the debt at reasonable level.  

> it seemed that everyone in  Eastern Europe had just lost every sense of dignity in the pursuit of  dollars

 It is understandable.
After a poor life in USSR - where anything imported from the West was almost idolized (plastic bags, jeans, etc...)  

> I had believed that  Eastern Europeans were clever people, idealistic about socialism for the  most part

 George Orwell coined a great term - doublethink.
In public people were idealistic about socialism, but secretly they hated it. 
Anyway - if you lived in SU you at least partially had to be a crook.
There were long queues and deficits in shops - many necessary goods were hard to obtain.
So friends or acquitances who worked in distribution were very valuable.
You could bribe them and get the goods you needed.
Stealing from kolkhozes also was popular (my parents did it when they worked there - their pay was not great and they could get food without standing in a long queue).
If you knew a mechanic - you also could get parts for your car much easier.
This so-called "blat" was everywhere. 
So - naturally - people continued to act the same way after Soviet Union collapsed.
In capitalist economy - these actions are corruption.
In soviet socialist economy these helped people to survive.  

> I  saw some families living in squalor. I would not surprise me if these   places were deliberately abandoned on purpose, by everyone in power.

 At least in Daugavpils mostly russians are in power. 

> and as a source of manpower for  jobs that are hard to fill in Western Europe

 And Latvian companies import even cheaper workers from Ukraine and Belarus.
(Latvia also is attractive for them, because they have more rights (at least compared to Belarus) and they can speak Russian here)   

> or  repatriated to Russia in a dignified way

 To get most of Russians living here to move to Russia - you need a different process called "forced deportation"  ::  - because they simply do not want to go there - life here is better - most of people who wanted to live in Russia are already there. 
Those who want to leave - go in the opposite direction - to the EU.
(Some of Russians I know work in Ireland and UK - and they say that they are not stupid to go to Russia - EU is much better).

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## xdns

> Anyway - if you lived in SU you at least partially had to be a crook.
> There were long queues and deficits in shops - many necessary goods were hard to obtain.
> So friends or acquitances who worked in distribution were very valuable.
> You could bribe them and get the goods you needed.
> Stealing from kolkhozes also was popular (my parents did it when they worked there - their pay was not great and they could get food without standing in a long queue).
> If you knew a mechanic - you also could get parts for your car much easier.
> This so-called "blat" was everywhere.

 I've just remembered funny Soviet short film about beefy factory worker who is trying to steal an engine from his workplace and skinny schoolboy who ruins his plans:

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## nulle

> Сама Латвия участвовала в куче агрессивных войн: в Ираке, Афганистане и  т. д. Или поддерживали их в НАТО. Вопрос: у них были какие-то интересы в  Ираке, или они очень боялись Саддама Хусейна?

 Taking part in NATO missions allows Latvia to have smaller military budget than required by NATO.
And NATO also provides security to Baltic airspace - Baltic Air Policing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
Better question would be - what Ukraine, Mongolia and Kazakhstan did there?
Even Switzerland participated in Afghanistan war...

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## nulle

TVNET :: Политика - В Евросоюзе соберут подписи за русский язык как официальный
LOL

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## Hanna

I think that Nulle grew up and went to school at the exact time when hating Russia, USSR etc was practically a mandatory religion in the Baltic states. I.e. late 90s until now.  
I guess they needed a few years to re-write some school books and re-educate a few teachers, but after that it was probably full speed ahead with the anti-Russia/USSR/Socialism agenda. 
And in with the pro-USA/NATO/capitalism agenda.... ! 
Which means that it probably doesn't matter how wrong things go with capitalism, how disgustingly the US behaves etc... Because one can spend all ones time complaining about everything that was wrong in the USSR, etc, etc. 
I think a broader perspective would be better. Not everything about the USSR was bad, it had some good points. It can't have been some kind of living hell to live there, just a bit restrictive and insular - although with a sense of security that is now lost.  
Also - here is another interesting point: From what I gathered reading newspapers at the time, most if not all of the Baltic states had more or less ready-made governments in exile standing by to take over... these people had lived in the USA and in Sweden, perhaps also Germany during the Soviet time. One of these countries (forgotten which) got a president who was even struggling with the language. 
Why would Baltic people vote for people who had grown up outside of the countries, who did not know anything about their daily struggles and who can't possibly have been known to them at all? These candidates came in with financial backing from various types "pro democracy" groups... It can't have been particularly hard to woo people who had no experience of election campaigns or cynical politicians that make promises they don't intend to keep. It really smells of rotten fish!  
I personally think the Balts to some degree have been taken for a ride by Western Europe and others. But they are too busy complaining about Russia and the USSR to notice it! For example, when the IMF wanted to force their loans on the Icelandic and the Irish, the citizens in both these small countries said "P$$ off", because they realised it was cr*p and didn't want to have it. 
In Latvia it seems like they just let the EU, World bank and USA tell them what to do...

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## nulle

> It can't have been particularly hard to woo people who had no  experience of election campaigns or cynical politicians that make  promises they don't intend to keep. It really smells of rotten fish!

 That's true - many people who got power right after USSR collapse were real crooks and treated inexperienced voters like idiots. (Pretty much the same like Putin treats his voters now: "I and Medvedev just decided to switch places and I do not care what you, imbeciles, think" ).
Also many politicians tried to get popularity using nationalistic slogans (which are still effective now, sadly :/ ). 
This situation improved in recent years at least between Latvian voters. (Most of Russian voters still vote like this: "I don't care that they are crooks, at least they are Russian").  

> most if not all of the Baltic states had more or less ready-made governments in exile standing by to take over

 Former commies mostly took the power. 
IMF did not force a loan on Latvia - our government went and asked for it, because thanks to their inept actions no one else wanted to lend to Latvia - pretty much like Greece now...  

> I guess they needed a few years to re-write some school books and  re-educate a few teachers, but after that it was probably full speed  ahead with the anti-Russia/USSR/Socialism agenda.

 At least in my school no one preached that we should hate Russia/USSR.
Russian language also was a mandatory subject. (at least in my school) (now it is not) 
USSR itself made people hate it - with their inefficient economy and poor living conditions. (and I say "their", because it was not our country, but foreign occupying power)
And Baltic people had extra reasons - forced russification, KGB and occupation army everywhere, and privileged immigrants that treated locals as second-class citizens. 
In 1940 - there were ~200 000 Russians in Latvia - Soviet Union "imported" 700 000 more during soviet times making Latvians almost minority in our own country - another reason to hate USSR.
Imagine that someone imported 4 000 000 foreigners in Sweden against wishes of Swedish people and made their language first official in Sweden.
Or imagine that in Russia someone imported 80 000 000 Chinese and made Chinese language official in Russia.  
But anyway - Hanna - what are you trying to say?
That Latvia is a failed state and we cannot govern it properly?
And that we should just give up and ask Russia to incorporate us once again?

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## Doomer

*nulle*, Latvia was alway a political prostitute
Look up history
XII-XVI centuries. Latvia was invaded  by crusaders and ancient Germany considered Latvia as a part of their orders. Natives were turned into slaves
XIV-XVIII centuries. Latvia is a part of Poland and Sweden, divided in half *XVIII-XX centuries. Latvia is a part of Russian Empire. By that type Latvia already been Russian and Russian people considered Latvia as part of their land*. Руссо-Балт 
In the World War I Latvia gets occupied by Germans. Germany considered Latvia as United Baltic Duchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The first time when Latvia actually tries to get independent is a year 1918 - Latvian War of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. By that time Russia is in civil war 
Imperial Russia is on Latvian side which automatically makes Latvia an enemy to new Bolshevik RSFSR government
And actually RSFSR finally agrees on Latvian independence - Latvian–Soviet Peace Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
As you probably would hate to accept, without Russia, Latvia would never have any chance to be independent 
Right now Latvia is selling itself to stronger allies. I guess old habits die hard

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## Hanna

Good response Nulle!
And no, I do not think that you "should just give up and ask Russia to incorporate us once again". 
Clearly that is NOT what Baltic people want. It's good that your countries are independent. Russia should respect your independence (I think it does) and the Russian speaking minorities should accept that they are minority and have a certain historical legacy to be a bit careful with.  
I just get a bit provoked by all your antiRussia comments on this Russian website. I mean, is this really the ideal place to vent your frustrations?  
Also, I am saying that the Baltic states, including you for example seem a bit too suspicious and hateful towards Russia and Russians. Oppressing the current Russian minority and discriminating against their language is not ok simply because Latvians think that their country was poorly done by the USSR. That's my point. 
I mean, you want to be a bit mature about the past - for example like SouthAfrica is - they decided to let bygones be bygones and look to the future instead.

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## xdns

I think that the Russian language in Latvia should at least be promoted to the official status within municipalities with high percentage of native Russian speakers. By doing so the authorities would show respect to the significant part of the population. Stubborn denial of any official status for the Russian language is stupid, because you just can't ignore demands of the third part of the population. But the language is just one of many integrational issues in Latvian society, alongside with non-citizens and involvement of Russian community representatives in government. Ignoring these problems alienates native Russian speakers of Latvia and makes them feel like they are the second-class people in their own country. This could lead to aggravation of tensions in Latvian society and even to civil unrest.

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## xdns

Interestingly, recent months saw an exacerbation of the struggle for equal rights in Latvia, particularly the collection of signatures for changing the status of the Russian language and for granting citizenship to all non-citizens unconditionally (so called "zero-option"). It's even referred to as Russian atmoda in online discussions to draw a parallel with the periods of Latvian national awakening, implying that it's now Russian Latvians' turn to awaken. They've become more vocal than ever. It's interesting what will come out of it - equal rights for everyone and integration based on mutual respect of two communities or deeper disintegration of already dysfunctional Latvian society? Frankly speaking, there are only three ways to deal with the situation in Latvia:
1) to assimilate Russians into the Latvian society, but it'll not work because they don't want to;
2) to get rid of Russians somehow, and there are just two options - either deportation (that means civil war) or encouraging them to leave, for example by offering them some money, kind of an incentive fee, but it would be too costly, because Latvian population is already shrinking and the country just can't afford to lose more taxpayers and pay for that too - it's an economical suicide;
3) to integrate Russians into the Latvian society.
I think the third alternative is the best and Latvian authorities make statements in the same vein, but their "integration efforts" are reduced to absurdity and rely mainly on repressive measures like language police slapping a fine on people for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work (yes, they really have that! o_O), institute of non-citizenship, political boycott etc. In other words, they're speaking of integration, but trying to achieve ill-conceived assimilation, and fail at both. They should change their flawed approach and take Russian Latvians into consideration to build a coherent society.

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## Hanna

Very funny incident to do with the Latvian language issue came up at work today. It went like this.  
(Steering group meeting)  *Global HR manager*:  Oh, and I have some exciting news for you: It's finally official! We  are expanding to Latvia, so you need to sort out a Latvian version of  the software by xx date.  *Me*: Oh, actually, then we  have to add EUR 35k  to the project budget because I am almost certain  that Latvian is not an existing language from the vendor.  *My boss*: 35k!!!!  *Me:*  Yes, there is quite a lot of work to add a new version from scratch,  actually, and it's the same price as I just added to the budget for  purchasing a Bulgarian version. *My boss*: How  many people live in Latvia??? Don't they speak Russian too?  I know  someone from Latvia and he speaks Russian! Lots of people were speaking  Russian when I was there. How about if we tell them that they can have  either the Russian or the English version? *(Clueless) HR manager*:  But there _is_ a Latvian language, isn't there? The policy is that all of  our employees should get the software in their own language. There is  no guarantee that they speak either Russian or English! It's really a  core value for us.  *My boss*: Well if there are 300  new employees in Latvia, then the price is EUR 150 per person to follow  that policy! And they already speak Russian.  *Me*:  The best thing to do might be to speak to the new manager there and ask  what they recommend... I've heard that the language situation in Latvia  is quite sensitive...  *HR Manager*: Ok I will take care of that.  
This company is very big and successful, but the IT department is really backwards. For  what it is worth, I thought the Russian idea was really crap, and I was  shocked that the Global HR manager was not 100% certain that Latvian  was a real language!! The right thing to do is definitely to add Latvian.

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## nulle

> There is  no guarantee that they speak either Russian or English!

 Actually I haven't met any Latvian that don't understand at least one of them.
Everyone that works in IT industry in Latvia know English.
 And I don't really care about localized versions - a lot of IT terms lack a proper translation - and our linguists usually come up with new words that sound funny or retarded.  ::   

> all your antiRussia comments on this Russian website

 If I like/know Russian language, that does not mean that I have to like Soviet Union or Russian government (especially if it is unfriendly to my country).  

> let bygones be bygones and look to the future instead.

 Many Russians that live here do not want that - they want their soviet time privileges back.
And that's why they started this referendum that will achieve absolutely nothing, and will waste 4 000 000 $ of taxpayer money (that could be spent a lot better - to renovate some russian school or something like that).
I will go and vote against too.   

> you just can't ignore demands of the third part of the population.

 People who immigrated illegally want to demand something?
They should be grateful that they were not deported (like Czechoslovakia did with migrants that settled during Nazi occupation).
We also have most liberal naturalization policy in the EU - you only can have problems with it if you don't know Latvian.
Those who did not immigrate during soviet times got citizenship with no questions asked (more than 200 000 russians).
All russians are NOT non-citizens. 
Also many non-citizens do not want to naturalize (even if they know language), especially those who live near Russian border.
They do not have to buy a visa to travel to Russia.
So they can go and buy much cheaper fuel and other goods in Russia.
And can visit their friends and relatives living in Russia.   

> equal rights for everyone

 All Latvian *CITIZENS* have absolutely equal rights - does not matter what their native language is.  

> like language police slapping a fine on people for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work

 Yes - it is shameful that 20 years after we got independence we still need something like that.
And that some people don't learn language of a country they are living in.
xdns - what would you do if you called emergency service and got someone who does not understand russian on the other end?  

> political boycott

 LOL WHAT?
Mayors of Rīga (capital) and Daugavpils (2nd largest city) both are ethnic Russians. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ушаков,_Нил_Валерьевич http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кулакова,_Жанна_Михайловна
And also - ~1/4 of our parliament are ethnic Russians too (last time they even elected one who does not know Latvian lol).

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## xdns

I agree with you that it's a shame to live in independent Latvia without knowledge of the Latvian language. But I think that Latvian authorities should swap sticks for carrots. How about abolishing language police and introducing free Latvian courses instead? How about tax deductions - the higher your level of Latvian (B2, C1 etc.), the lower your taxes? People should have an incentive to learn the Latvian language. It is a job for the minister for integration to devise approaches that really work and integrate, not alienate people, after all! And in the same time Russian should be at least made official in several places with significant Russophone population, according to European practices of minorities' treatment (described, for example, in the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages). 
I think that the forthcoming referendum is considered by many Russian Latvians as a way to draw attention to the shortcomings of Latvian society. The authorities apparently gave them no other chance to be heard, because their representatives are excluded from the government (I meant THAT political boycott, on the state level).

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## nulle

> How about abolishing language police and introducing free Latvian courses instead

 There are free language courses (and in Russian schools 60% of lessons should be in Latvian).
The problem is with the biggest carrot - Russia and its propaganda:
"Latvia is a failed state",
 "Latvians are fascists",
 "Latvians cannot govern themselves properly",
"It was a mistake to secede from USSR",
"wait a bit and you will receive citizenship and Russian as an official language (so you will not have to learn Latvian)". 
And open border with Russia for non-citizens also is a good reason remain non-citizen.   

> How about tax deductions - the higher your level of Latvian (B2, C1 etc.), the lower your taxes?

 That is a quite radical proposal - I haven't heard anything like that even from Latvian nationalists  ::   

> because their representatives are excluded from the government

 If you mean Harmony centre - they were excluded because their economic policy was incompatible with that of current government.
(the same way democrats or republicans exclude each other in US).
And they refused to sign government declaration, which contained things like:
"All government parties recognize that Latvia was unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union"
"Latvian should be only official language in Latvia"
In 2010 they also had to agree on similar declaration - and they refused.   

> The authorities apparently gave them no other chance to be heard

 10 000 citizens can submit any bill to the parliament.

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## Hanna

> Actually I haven't met any Latvian that don't understand at least one of them.
> Everyone that works in IT industry in Latvia know English.
>  And I don't really care about localized versions - a lot of IT terms  lack a proper translation - and our linguists usually come up with new  words that sound funny or retarded.

  The users of this software will mostly be people who work in shops....  (??) Not likely to be university graduates etc
Do you think it would make sense to offer the software in EITHER Latvian and Russian instead? They are given a legal text to agree to - which they must understand. Also, they need to do quite a lot of administration inside the software. As a comparison, most of the Dutch users do not read English well enough to use the software in English - and they are known for a very high level of English there. For Hong Kong, for example, the users can choose "HK English" or "HK Traditional Chinese". Perhaps for Latvia, we should do "Latvia - Latvian" and maybe also "Latvia - Russian". Not a lot of extra trouble since a Russian version already exists. But a really nice and unexpected gesture towards the native Russian speakers. And I totally agree with the point that everyone in Latvia speaks Russian, in particular people in shops. It was quite impressive to hear people switch back and forth. This particular company is incredibly sensitive to cultural stuff and I am almost certain that they will want to have a Latvian version even though it's terrible economy to translate for such a small market, and does not make a lot of practical sense. 
The software is only rolled out in a few countries so far, but it's being phased in gradually and Latvia on the grounds of being a new market jumps to the top of the queue. Latvia is the first Baltic expansion so there is no precedence from the other countries.    

> People who immigrated illegally want to demand something?

 Latvia is choosing to look at this situation from a very strange (to outsiders) perspective. Everyone realises that the people in question were either moved to Latvia for work- perhaps not even according to their own preference, but as a work posting. Others read information by the perfectly legal (at the time) state saying "Move to Latvia - lots of opportunities... " etc. and they heeded it in good faith. It is not fair to call them "illegal immigrants today". Particularly since most of these "illegal immigrants" were born in the country or lived there for many decades.   

> Ушаков,_Нил_Валерьевич

  Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.   

> they want their soviet time privileges back.

 Can you give some examples?   

> And they refused to sign government declaration, which contained things like:
> "All government parties recognize that Latvia was unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union"
> "Latvian should be only official language in Latvia"

 I think it's petty, ridiculous and immature for a country to require political parties to sign up to stuff like that just because they have a axe to grind. Other countries do not require political parties to agree to statements of this nature. 
 The whole point of politics is that you have different opinions on events past and present!  If these voters do not support those opinions, why should they? In a democracy it's free to have your own opinion about different matters. 
It's a bit similar to the anti-immigration parties across Europe which represents large parts of the population but are not given the same democratic rights as other countries to participate in debates etc.  
All Latvia is doing is putting a lid on a sensitive question. The Russian speakers in Latvia did not have a lot of experience with democracy and accepted a treatment that would have been unthinkable and would have created riots had anyone tried it in Western Europe. But times are changing and by alienating them and not respecting them, Latvia is creating a smoldering situation that might explode at a later time.

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## Eric C.

As for the software, I fail to see why not just ship it with all the languages it's localized for at the moment, so that you could just add Latvian and make the Latvian version release right away.

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## Hanna

@Eric - This is a bespoke SAA solution. There is a licencing issue, extensive customization and data migration, a translation and review period, a number of legal aspects and lots of other complicated considerations involved. This is a global corporation with an extremely large number of employees, all of whom will be using this. Obviously I simplified the situation a bit since this is not a discussion about IT management.

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## mishau_

Mixture of attempts to look democratic and with ethnical dictatorship.

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## xdns

> There are free language courses (and in Russian schools 60% of lessons should be in Latvian).

 I've just read that there were free (except for the schoolchildren and the unemployed) Latvian language courses in Riga in late 2011, and people are invited to sign up for similar courses scheduled for 2012. These courses are funded with Riga's money, so it's not a nationwide initiative. In online discussions Russian Latvians welcome this decision and regret that there were no such free courses for the last 20 years (!). Are they mistaken?   

> "It was a mistake to secede from USSR",
> "wait a bit and you will receive citizenship and Russian as an official language (so you will not have to learn Latvian)". 
> And open border with Russia for non-citizens also is a good reason remain non-citizen.

 There are also some non-citizens with a firm stance against naturalization despite having sufficient knowledge of Latvian to pass the exams. 
They just find it offensive that they were not granted citizenship without any questions after living in the country for 50-60 years and even voting for Latvian independence in 1991 (yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia, and they couldn't imagine at the time that they would have to earn their citizenship afterwards)!  
What about language inspections - it is a very sensitive issue from the Russian Latvians' point of view. Some people complain that officers asked them embarrassing questions about their descent. Also they say that Russian businessmen in Latvia tend not to hire native Latvians because they may file a complaint about insufficient use of the Latvian language at work. Clearly language police is perceived by Russian Latvians as an offensive force, and they unanimously agree that the authorities should better spend taxpayers' money on popularization of the Latvian language instead. Love cannot be forced. 
And what about privileges - I've heard about one particular privilege that Latvians had in Russia during Soviet times. They could enroll in the topmost universities (like MSU in Moscow) competing only with their fellow Latvians (there were reserved places for different ethnic minorities from across the Soviet Union), whereas Russians had no such special treatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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## nulle

> Mixture of attempts to look democratic and with ethnical dictatorship.

 Unlike Russia - Latvia is democratic. Election rigging like in Russia is simply unthinkable here.
And if there is ethnical dictatorship - why Russians better stay here and not move to Russia? (even those who live near the border - they could move only couple of kilometers (less than 100) and be in Russia)
Some even apply for Russian citizenship to get Russian pension (age of retirement is lower in Russia), but still stay here...  

> Everyone realises that the people in question were either moved to  Latvia for work- perhaps not even according to their own preference, but  as a work posting. Others read information by the perfectly legal (at  the time) state saying "Move to Latvia - lots of opportunities... " etc.  and they heeded it in good faith. It is not fair to call them "illegal  immigrants today".

 Yes, and that's why we gave them permanent residence permits and allowed them to stay here. (Unlike some Central-Asian republics which started to simply lynch Russian immigrants and throw them out of their homes (Tajikistan) )
We understand that many of them did not even know that Baltics was occupied territory - USSR propaganda was really powerful.
This problem was not created by Latvians, but by USSR and we handled it as best as we could.
And remember that 400 000 of them voted AGAINST Latvian independence - and we allowed them to stay too...
Hell, we even allowed retired military officials to stay (only those who served in active military service had to leave).  

> I think it's petty, ridiculous and immature for a country to require  political parties to sign up to stuff like that just because they have a  axe to grind. Other countries do not require political parties to agree  to statements of this nature.

 Country did not require them to sign up.
Other political parties (who had majority) required them.
And this "stuff like that" are foundations of Latvia - party that does not respect them have no place in government - don't care that they claim to represent Latvia's Russian population (they are not representing - Russians join and vote for other parties too).
There is huge difference between - 
"Latvia declared independence in 1918 and was unlawfully occupied by USSR and later - in 1990 restored independence"
"Latvia voluntarily joined USSR in 1940 and ceased to exist, in 1990 a new country called Latvia seceded from USSR and declared independence".
Latvians and most of our political parties (regardless of ideology) and Western world agrees to first version.
Russia and Harmony Centre agrees to second.
These two views are not compatible and there is not anything to discuss about them.  

> Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

 He says that his nationality is Russian and he is former non-citizen.
I, personally don't like him, not because he's Russian, but because he is wasting my tax money on unnecessary shit...
And also because he says that Latvian should be the only oficial alnguage, but at he same time he also went and signed this petition for russian to be official.

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## Marcus

Many people have moved to Russia despite the fact that no one is waiting for them here. 

> and even voting for Latvian independence in 1991 (yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia, and they couldn't imagine at the time that they would have to earn their citizenship afterwards)!

 They are punished for that and that's fair.

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## nulle

> that would have been unthinkable and would have created riots had anyone tried it in Western Europe

 Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia   

> Many people have moved to Russia despite the fact that no one is waiting for them here.

 Not from Latvia.
Place where I live feels almost like Russia - you can meet Russians everywhere - they do not want to go to Russia...   

> yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia

 And many received citizneship.
Anyway - I agree that maybe Latvian government should have done something differently back then.
Like giving citizenship to those who voted for Latvian independence.
But you have to understand situation back then.
Occupation army everywhere, huge number of immigrants that do not know Latvian and who voted against independence, Latvians almost minority in their own country (52% in whole country, ~30% in Rīga), KGB/OMON killing people in Lithuania, many more people remembering soviet crimes and atrocities...
And also - Latvians did not want to give power to Russians anymore (nationalism was way more stronger back then).
(Even now many people refer to Soviet period as - "krievu laiki", (Russian times)) 
But if you look at all these post-Soviet conflicts (Tajikistan, Chechnya, Georgia, Nagorno Karabakh, etc) in 1990s and Yugoslavia - Baltics handled this situation very well.

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## Marcus

> they do not want to go to Russia...

 People usually leave the country when there is no other variant or when they can get something significantly better. There are some Russians even in Tadjikistan. 

> And also - Latvians did not want to give power to Russians anymore (nationalism was way more stronger back then).

 Russians did not rule. Look at the Soviet leaders. Most of them are not ethnic Russians.
And actually, do you suffer the presence of these people? Would it be better if all the Russians were exiled?

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## Полуношник

A court* removed a candidate from a ballot** because she lacks the required language skills: Candidate confirms she will appeal decision removing her from ballot, cabrera, english, appeal - News - YumaSun. 
*Arizona Supreme Court. 
**The ballot to the San Luis city council.

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## Marcus

> Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

 Он Нил, а не Нильс.

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## nulle

Nils Ušakovs - is Latvianized form which is written in his passport and all official documents.
Many foreign names and surnames are changed like that.

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## Marcus

s is the nominative ending in Latvian.

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## Doomer

> Nils Ušakovs - is Latvianized form which is written in his passport and all official documents.
> Many foreign names and surnames are changed like that.

 Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарикас! Шарикас! - Гавс! Гавс!

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## nulle

В центре событий с Анной Прохоровой 29.01.2012 - YouTube
I'm not surprised anymore that people like mishau think that we in Latvia are idolizing Nazis...

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## CoffeeCup

> Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарик! Шарик! Молчание. - Шарикас! Шарикас! - Гавс! Гавс!

  ::

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## mishau_

> And if there is ethnical dictatorship - why Russians better stay here and not move to Russia?

 Этот прием в демагогии называется "неявное умолчание" - возражение против некоего утверждения, которое в моей фразе явно отсутствует. 
- Вы утверждаете, что у вас болит рука. Что же вы ее не отрубите?
- Раз нет хлеба, ешь пирожные!

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## xdns

Referendum for the Russian language as the second state language in Latvia is scheduled for tomorrow. It's time to remember some not so fair things about the language situation in this country. Here are some facts: 
1. Russian language descriptions on goods and meds are often hidden behind a sticker with Latvian language description. Funny enough, there may be descriptions in ten other languages, but only Russian is routinely chosen to be removed in that way.
2. Center for the state language forbade to publish social advertising designed to raise awareness of cancer in Russian.
3. There are no signs in Russian and no way to communicate with the authorities in Russian even in overwhelmingly Russophone municipalities.
4. Language "police" fines employers for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work (I wonder how do they measure it...).
5. Higher education in Russian is forbidden in educational institutions funded by the state while higher education in EU languages is allowed. 
So I'm not surprised that Russian Latvians are not very happy with such treatment of their native language. I think it's impossible to win the referendum, but may be it will show the authorities that there is the need for a change though.

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## xdns

The results are here: as it was expected, ~75% voted against Russian as a second state language, while ~25% voted in favor. So Latvian language remains the sole state language of Latvia. This referendum has record-breaking high turnout (~71% of voters), mainly because chief political forces successfully campaigned against the two state languages solution. However, it is likely that Russian Latvians will continue their struggle to promote the Russian language to some official status within at least some parts of Latvia.

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## nulle

I actually was surprised about the results - didn't think that turnout and votes against would be so high.  

> but may be it will show the authorities that there is the need for a change though.

 Yes - there might be a change - now people are considering to stop state-funded education in Russian altogether. 
And  according to constitution results should be interpreted a bit  differently, because  required 50%+1 votes should be from ALL voters,  not just from those who went to referendum.
And that means that only 17% of all eligible voters supported official status for Russian.    

> So I'm not surprised that Russian Latvians are not very happy with such treatment of their native language.

 Poor  Russians - my landlord still speaks to me only in Russian, because she  knows Latvian poorly - do you think I should be happy? 
And anyway - what do you think would be fair?
Latvians  should forget Latvian language and speak only Russian to not offend  someone - ребята давайте жить дружно Stalin/Putin style? 
And here Russians are more respected than they are in Russia - we do not steal their votes in elections/referendums like партия жуликов и воров does in Russia.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZHL...layer_embedded

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## Marcus

> And here Russians are more respected than they are in Russia - we do not steal their votes in elections/referendums like партия жуликов и воров does in Russia.

 We just don't allow some of them to vote.

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## xdns

> And anyway - what do you think would be fair?

 Find those bastards who put stickers right over the descriptions in Russian on packages of various merchandise in Riga shops and take their glue away for a start  ::

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## xdns

Btw, referendum clearly highlighted cities that are in dire need of official status of the Russian language within their limits: Riga (36% votes in favor), Daugavpils (85%), Jelgava (25%), Liepaja (20%), Ventspils (20%), Rezekne (60%) etc.

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## Hanna

It would have been more fair to make this a regional decision in that case. 
It seems to me that the Russians tend to live in the 3-4 largest cities and in some of those they are majority. 
While the rest of the country is mainly Latvian.  
This is so tragic - both for Latvians who are still hurting and very much hung up on the past. 
And the Russian-speakers who have to pay for "the sins of the fathers" by putting up with language discrimination that would not be acceptable anywhere else in Europe.

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## nulle

> We just don't allow some of them to vote.

 Every citizen can vote - does not matter what his nationality is.
Everyone else is free to naturalize and get citizenship at any time - ~150k already did.
(and of course everyone can also get citizenship of another country - like 30k+ citizens of Russia that currently live here)
And as I said - many don't want a citizneship, because they can visit Russia and the EU without a visa (no Russian or EU citizen can do that) - obtaining it is a messy and long procedure (and in the past they were extempt from conscription in army).  

> Find those bastards who put stickers right over the descriptions in  Russian on packages of various merchandise in Riga shops and take their  glue away for a start

  ::  - it is not as big issue as you make it to be - maybe some isolated cases :P 
Hanna - you see the results of referendum - only 17% are in favour - the rest don't want Latvia to be officially multilingual - 800k+ people clearly said - NO - not authorities, not politicians, just ordinary voters like me - the rest who did not participate - in this case - their (in)action still counts as NO...
And I remind once more - percentage should be calculated from whole eligible voter count - ~1,5 million - not just those who took part in referendum - because for constitutional referendums to succeed - at least 50% of eligible voters (that's 750k people) must take part and at least 50% of eligible voters must vote "FOR".
That's why most of the remaining 500k did not participate, because there was a zero chance for this referendum to succeed (we don't even have that much Russians here (only ~550k and 300k of them - citizens) - and not all of them supported this referendum)  

> It would have been more fair to make this a regional decision in that case.

 It's not possible, because you still need to change the constitution - and organize another referendum like this.
Unless there is a revolution or something like that - parliament alone simply cannot pass a law like that - a referendum is needed. 
And in a way - those who supported this referendum - shot themselves in a foot.
Because they demanded equal status to Russian and Latvian everywhere (completely ignoring another minorities) instead of something more moderate.
And also used aggressive rethorics - "русские идут!", "мы им покажем!", "300 тысяч или больше голосов «ЗА» станут для них нокаутом. Да, это шоковая терапия, но другого языка они не понимают." i.t.d...
So - now people will be against to even more moderate proposals.  

> and very much hung up on the past.

 In this case - it's the Russians who want to live in the past - this referendum asked to restore language policy of Soviet Union - "Russian ūber alles - the rest should die out" - but Soviet Union is long dead and people should understand that and move on.
We want to move to the West, they want to move to Soviet Union.
And we see what happened in Belarus and Ireland - and we don't want that here. 
I like how this Russian blogger put it: http://shiropaev.livejournal.com/90104.html  

> Что означает в Латвии русский язык как второй государственный? А это  значит, что совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации,  могут позволить себе оставаться совками. Это значит, что у них будет  законное право не знать и презирать латышский язык, «положить болт» на  латышскую культуру и саму Латвию, в которую они когда-то приехали просто  как в одну из провинций необъятной красной империи. А главное,  повторяю, у них будет законное право и возможность оставаться вечно  вчерашними, советскими людьми, принципиально не желающими ментально и  психологически интегрироваться в Европу, в западный образ жизни. Русский  язык для них – всего лишь средство *сохранения своей совковой  идентичности*.

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## mishau_

> I like how this Russian blogger put it: Алексей Широпаев - Язык Москвы     
> 			
> 				Что означает в Латвии русский язык как второй государственный? А это значит, что совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации, могут позволить себе оставаться совками. Это значит, что у них будет законное право не знать и презирать латышский язык, «положить болт» на латышскую культуру и саму Латвию, в которую они когда-то приехали просто как в одну из провинций необъятной красной империи. А главное, повторяю, у них будет законное право и возможность оставаться вечно вчерашними, советскими людьми, принципиально не желающими ментально и психологически интегрироваться в Европу, в западный образ жизни. Русский язык для них – всего лишь средство *сохранения своей совковой идентичности*.

 Нашел, кого цитировать - нациста-антисемита. ::   
"... совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации, могут позволить себе оставаться совками" 
Думешь, он русских имел в виду? Хрена - евреев! Стропаев-таки убежден, что Россию создали _жиды,_ как _Проект_ по порабощению представителей арийской расы, и ящерики уже почти полностью одолели.  
Тем временем, "совки, понаехавшие в Латвию за годы советской оккупации", дают 50% в бюджет Латвии. Фактически, страна живет на деньги русскоговорящих людей. А если учесть, что трудоспособное население из Латвии постоянно убывает (в направлении ФРГ), вопросов возникает еще больше. Фактичкески, русскоязычных людей, содержащих официальных латышских нелюдей, власти выводят из правовой среды в среду этнического противостояния. Причем, противостояния не толлко русских латышам, но противостояние "своих" и "врагов всего латышского", куда попадают и сами латыши, поддерживающие требования русских.

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## nulle

> Думешь, он русских имел в виду?

 Of course not - совки - Soviet people without nationality and with common language - Russian - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

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## Hanna

The funny thing is Nulle - as much as you don't like Russian, you understand it perfectly well - lots of people elsewhere in the EU would really envy you this... And before you know it, it might come in very handy for your career or some other reason - for example while travelling etc.

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## nulle

Я не против русский язык.
I do not like chauvinists who apparently don't know what country they are living in.
Most of the people who went to this referendum and voted against - know Russian - but they don't want to be required to know it, because we are not a part of Russia. 
I do not want to get fined, because I might not know Russian well enough - and if this referendum succeeded - "language police" would be required to test proficiency of both Russian AND Latvian (And they usually do it only when someone complains). 
If there was a referendum to make English a second state language - I would go and vote against too. 
It is not like - well, most of people here know Russian so they should use this language instead.

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## CoffeeCup

> I do not want to get fined, because I might not know Russian well enough - and if this referendum succeeded - "language police" would be required to test proficiency of both Russian AND Latvian (And they usually do it only when someone complains). 
> It is not like - well, most of people here know Russian so they should use this language instead.

 You are pathetic. You do know that it is nothing but letting Russians speak Russian and eliminating any "language police" on the spot. But you are scared to death that any progress in treating Russians as people but not as a second class (like NONcitizens) will take place. This will force you automatically admit your Nazi's presumptions in such a treatment. And in the nightmare dreams you see how it can be with you treated the same way you treated others.

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## xdns

> Я не против русского языка. 
> I do not want to get fined, because I might not know Russian well enough - and if this referendum succeeded - "language police" would be required to test proficiency of both Russian AND Latvian (And they usually do it only when someone complains).

 Do Finns in Finland get fined for insufficient use of the other national language - Swedish? Do Swedes in Finland get fined for insufficient use of Finnish? Is there language police at all? Also, do Finns in Finland call Swedes invaders because Sweden owned Finland for about half the millennia? 
AFAIK, the answer is no.
I think that Finland is happy with two national languages. So my call to Latvia is this: follow Finland's example! But apparently Latvian society is not ready to show magnanimity now. Maybe in the future...

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## Hanna

I don't know what I dislike more: Russians claiming that Latvians are Nazis, or Latvians black-painting Russians making false accusations and discriminating against Russian speakers!  
And Nulle, you keep forgetting, that as far as the Soviets were concerned, they liberated you guys and did you a favour by incorporating you in the USSR. 
It was not like they occupied you and started exploiting the country, like say, the Nazis did. Whether it can really be called an "occupation" is doubtful. I guess the mistake they made was to not hold a referendum about whether Latvians wanted to be part of the USSR, or remain independent. But as we know, referendums is not exactly part of the communist ideology. The Soviets acted fully in line with their ideology, which they believed was a great ideology. They thought they were helping you. I suppose you could call it "a well meaning mistake".  The whole idea was that all the Soviet republics were equal, but as far as I understand, the Baltics were considered particularly nice because of the gorgeous coastline and the more "European" feel. They built schools, libraries, hospitals, sports centres etc. You have mentioned people being deported, but as the Russians here have pointed out, this happened to anyone in the USSR that was considered suspect and it was not a particular slight against Latvia. And it affected only a minority. Other Latvians benefited from free education and support in their endeavours like sports or art that they might not have been able to afford as peasants in pre-war Latvia. And don't forget that all other countries accepted the annexation of Latvia as juste and legal at the time. Whether this was morally right or not, I do not know, but from the point of view of the USSR, they were genuinely liberating you and annexed the Baltics in a legal way.   *Gosh I am getting rather fed up with this discussion - I think we have covered it from every possible angle now!*  
As for Finnish: Sweden was fully planning to make Finland Swedish speaking. No Swedish speakers learned Finnish and many Finns changed language to Swedish. 
The Finns were not treated that well - in fact, many there apparently thought belonging to Russia was an improvement to belonging to Sweden, because Russia more or less left them alone and did not try to change things, whereas Sweden had meddled quite a bit.  
They take a few years of mandatory Swedish in school and this helps them to remain a part of the rest of Scandinavia - otherwise they could not understand the other languages. Some don't like the mandatory Swedish. All of the Finns defend the right of the native Swedish speakers there to speak their own language. It's part of their national identity to have two languages and they like it.  
All of the native Swedish speakers learn Finnish before adulthood and even if it is not their preferred language, they can speak it if it is necessary. 
The Finns can all understand basic Swedish, some are happy to speak it with strangers, others not.  
The fact that Finns speak Swedish has helped their economy massively, helps peoples individual careers and means that there are lots of marriages and friendships between Finns and Swedes. I studied there for 6 months, for example. Lots of Finns study in Sweden.

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## xdns

Not only schools and hospitals were built in Soviet Latvia - factories as well. For example, RAF - Riga Autobus Factory, founded in 1949. Vans made by RAF were used as shuttles, ambulance cars etc. everywhere in the USSR. Unfortunately for Latvia, RAF lost in the competition with the Russian company GAZ (founded in 1932 in Nizhny Novgorod), failed to conquer the new Russian market and went bankrupt in 1998.

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## nulle

> but letting Russians speak Russian

 No one is forbidding them to do that - Russian speakers can and do provide service to other Russian speakers in a language they prefer - no one is punished for that.
In some shops employees have little flags on their uniforms that indicate their language skills - find one who has Russian flag and you will get service in Russian without any problem.
But Latvians should not be required to do that - if they do - that is a nice bonus, but Russians should not demand that.
If you think that Russian working in some government institution or customer service should only speak to me in Russian - then NO - they should speak to me in Latvian or get fired. 
Speaking Latvian in Latvia IS NOT A DISCRIMINATION.
Just like speakin Russian in Russia is not a discrimination.   

> Maybe in the future...

 When Russian tanks will come in?  ::   

> It was not like they occupied you and started exploiting the country, like say, the Nazis did.

 They did exactly that - and they invaded BEFORE Nazis came in - in 1940 when they and Nazis were ALLIES - USSR propaganda tries to not mention that.   

> but from the point of view of the USSR, they were genuinely liberating you and annexed the Baltics in a legal way.

 But USSR does not exist now.
And from Latvian and most of Western world point of view they occupied us illegally.
Only cowards like Sweden admitted (at least for some time) that occupation was legal - USA and many other countries did not.  

> And it affected only a minority.

 Almost everyone have at least one relative that was deported or otherwise persecuted by USSR.
Not to mention that these deported people and their descendants were later discriminated against even after Stalin's death.
But it does not matter how many people were deported - that was a crime against humanity - equal to Holocaust.
Pre-war Latvian government never did anything like that.  

> They built schools, libraries, hospitals, sports centres etc.

 So did pre-war Latvian government - but they did not kill people.
And so does current government.
Before invasion - standard of living here was much higher than in USSR.  

> Other Latvians benefited from free education

 Education was free in pre-war Latvia too.
And it is free now - I did not have to pay a single lat for my university degree.   

> The whole idea was that all the Soviet republics were equal

 but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others.  

> Not only schools and hospitals were built in Soviet Latvia - factories as well

 Factories which proved to not work in free market, because of shitty production quality.
And stuff RAF made was just terrible compared to anything that was manufactured in the West. 
Btw xdns - thanks for correction  ::

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## nulle

And Hanna - your post looks like:
If you said this to some woman after she was raped:
"Well, you are not the only woman that was raped. And you probably enjoyed this a little bit, didn't you. And the man that did this to you - he looks rather charming, and you should understand him - he really wanted sex - he did not do it because he hates you. You should make it best out of this situation. And look how you are dressed - maybe it was partially your fault"

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## Hanna

> And Hanna - your post looks like:
> If you said this to some woman after she was raped:
> "Well, you are not the only woman that was raped. And you probably enjoyed this a little bit, didn't you. And the man that did this to you - he looks rather charming, and you should understand him - he really wanted sex - he did not do it because he hates you. You should make it best out of this situation. And look how you are dressed - maybe it was partially your fault"

 Ok, interesting.  
But here is another version of this story:  
The rapist denies the rape and has not been convicted. There are mixed views as to what actually took place.  
Yet, 20 years after the rape, the woman is still talking obsessively about the rape, hating all men, discriminates againts men whenever she gets the chance and blames men for everything that is wrong in her life.  
My point is rather that I understand and sympathise with her frustration and sadness but I think it's time she moves on, for her own good, for the good of her children and for the good of the innocent men who happen to cross paths with her.

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## xdns

We are now opening a contest for the best metaphor for Latvia-Russia relations  :: 
My turn: Russian Latvians remind me of divorced couple's children who love both their parents and can't decide with whom to live and whom to see only on weekends. 
Poor little baby Linderman... Sorry, I can't stop thinking up silly things  ::

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## Marcus

> but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others.

 Prove.  

> They did exactly that

 Nonsense.

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## Hanna

I can't believe there is only one Latvian person on this forum and the thread has been going for 5 pages.  
You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle. They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have, (even if I think I have said everything I have to say about this matter, about 5 times in this thread).  
If all Latvians were like you, you would never have been in the USSR in the first place.

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## nulle

> You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle

 Intersting - when I joined one Latvian nationalist forum - they called me a russophile, because I said that ideas like "deport all Russians to Russia" are nonsense.
But here my rather moderate views are called 10/10 patriotism  :: 
And there are Russian politicians that think like me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbuyye3Fxa0   

> but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others.                        Prove.

 Here we go again. Maybe in Russia it was not the case, but in occupied territories it was.   

> Poor little baby Linderman

 Btw this "baby Linderman" is a member of Национал-большевистская партия which is banned even in Russia.
And he was its Russian branch leader for some time.
He even spent some time in Russian prison for his activities there. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Линдерман,_Владимир_Ильич  

> They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have

 There are a lot of Russians that do not like USSR - why should I?

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## Ramil

> Intersting - when I joined one Latvian nationalist forum - they called me a russophile, because I said that ideas like "deport all Russians to Russia" are nonsense.

  ::  Does it mean that you simply like to troll people? (no offense, but turning your head into stone about any subject is not the best way find the truth. Besides, there are at least two different truths to any subject).

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## BappaBa

Слишком гуманна была Советская власть к тварям стрелявшим ей в спину. Отсидели свой пятерик, и опять пользовались всеми правами наряду с остальными гражданами СССР. А теперь их узколобые детеныши врут про оккупацию.

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## xdns

> When Russian tanks will come in?

 Oh, you're crying wolf...   

> Btw this "baby Linderman" is a member of Национал-большевистская партия which is banned even in Russia.
> And he was its Russian branch leader for some time.
> He even spent some time in Russian prison for his activities there. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Линдерман,_Владимир_Ильич

 I read about Linderman. FSB kicked him out of Russia to his birthplace - Latvia.
Btw, Linderman has a medal "Defender of barricades" because he was participating in 1991 events in Riga as a journalist for the Russian version of the "Atmoda" newspaper.
I understand that there was no fighting and barricades had mainly symbolic meaning, but nevertheless Linderman participated in protests for the Latvian independence and against USSR membership among many other Latvians and Russian Latvians. 
PS: Linderman is a Jew born in Riga, but Russian is his native language.
PPS: He has Lenin's first name and patronymic. It is just a coincidence I think, but very fortunate one. Apparently, he is a life-long revolutionary.

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## nulle

"Kremlin's historian" Dyukov - please - no one takes him seriously...   

> Besides, there are at least two different truths to any subject.

 That is if you think like in Orwell's "1984". 
I choose not to believe falsified history,

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## Ramil

> I choose not to believe falsified history,

 Oh, no, you choose not to believe OUR falsified history, but you're ready to believe some alternative history (also falsified) that suit you better.

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## xdns

> but Russia and Russian speakers were more equal than others. Prove. 
> Here we go again. Maybe in Russia it was not the case, but in occupied territories it was.

 I browsed Wikipedia and found out that leadership of the Latvian SSR was predominantly Latvian, not Russian.
While Latvian SSR existed there were 11 Latvian and 3 Russian leaders (chairmen, speakers etc.) - I tell them apart by surnames, so I may be wrong, but only slightly.
Interestingly, all leaders of the Communist party of the Latvian SSR were Latvians exclusively.
I agree that there was political dominance of Moscow and there was no democracy, but Latvian SSR was governed mostly by native Latvians. 
So in which respect were Russians more equal than others in the Latvian SSR? 
On the other hand, it looks like there was no economic dominance of RSFSR over the rest of SSRs.
Why RSFSR should buy those RAF vans if not to support Lavian SSR's economy? There were enough car making factories in RSFSR, but USSR's leadership strived to improve economies of all the republics, so they encouraged bilateral trade between every two SSRs.

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## Eric C.

> Слишком гуманна была Советская власть к тварям стрелявшим ей в спину. Отсидели свой пятерик, и опять пользовались всеми правами наряду с остальными гражданами СССР. А теперь их узколобые детеныши врут про оккупацию.

 Did those Latvians shoot at the Soviets' backs anywhere else than in Latvia? You know, if some guy broke in my house, and turned violent before the police arrived, I would have to shoot at his back too, and so would everyone I guess.

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## Xjy

> You definitely score 10/10 on the patriotism scale, nulle. They should give you a medal for joining a Russian forum and sticking to your guns for as long as you have, (even if I think I have said everything I have to say about this matter, about 5 times in this thread).  
> If all Latvians were like you, you would never have been in the USSR in the first place.

 You can get "free" citizenship for special services to the nation. Nulle's trolldom might count... 
Anyway, Hanna's position on this question - no question about the need for Latvian localization, and no question about the wrong-headedness of the current policies towards the Russian-speaking minority - is absolutely correct and wouldn't be questioned by anyone with any understanding of the National Question in general, language planning policy theory, nation-building, language acquisition, civic  rights or plain old democracy. 
A good presentation of the situation in Latvia can be found in this article (pdf, quick view):  https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...tdt9hJYNn2A16g 
or direct for download here:  sh.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:128103/FULLTEXT01 
One thing that is clear from this (and this expression will be mine, not the author's) is that official Latvian language acquisition policy towards Russian-speakers is like teaching someone a language by writing some words on a baseball bat and smashing it into the learner's mouth. 
I've just returned from a three-four day trip to Riga. I'm very interested in languages and was hoping to find some good materials for learning the language and something about it. Especially I hoped to find some hot-shit learning materials in Russian. The Soviet legacy in language teaching is excellent - I've seen this clearly myself in relation to textbooks in Hungarian and Czech from the days of the Stalinist occupation. I found nothing. A couple of short, not very clearly thought out textbooks for English speakers. I was extremely disappointed. I knew the Latvian majority practises discrimination against the Russian-speaking population, but the extent of this discrimination horrified me. Vindictive doesn't begin to cover it. I'm still interested in the language for linguistic reasons, but from now on I study with a clothes-peg on my nose.  
It was fascinating to see what a miserable place Riga was - as far as the faces and demeanour of the people were concerned. But I suppose if you've been enjoying the benefits of capitalist freedom and democracy for twenty years and feel totally betrayed in every respect you've got every right to look miserable. People aren't even this glum in Helsinki a bad week in November. 
The thing that best sums it all up for me is that the State Language Centre is part of the Ministry of Justice, and has policing and punitive powers. State Language Inspectors spying on and harassing members of a national minority going about their daily business. 1984. (A book I almost bought in Latvian to practise reading using a familiar text, and regretted not buying from the moment I left the bookshop. I couldn't find the Master and Margarita in Latvian, but given the state of affairs in the  country 1984 would have been more appropriate...)  
Thanks for listening. Paldies. Спасибо!

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## mishau_

In that regard I think Latvians are more interested to treat their Russian ppl as the untermenchen than let them be culturalized.

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## nulle

> I browsed Wikipedia and found out that leadership of the Latvian SSR was predominantly Latvian, not Russian.

 There is a nice Russian word to describe it - показухa.
The real leaders were in Moscow.  

> So in which respect were Russians more equal than others in the Latvian SSR

 Not Russians, but Russian speaking migrants from the rest of the USSR.
Because Latvia and other Baltic states were colonies of the USSR.
And immigrants came here to colonize our land.
That's why they had privileges - better job opportunities and faster access to cars and apartments.
They settled mainly in largest cities and towns - for local Latvians it was problematic, because of propiska system - thay had to stay in rural areas and smaller towns.
(Of course some Latvians got apartments in Riga too, but immigrants got them faster than normal queue - that's why some areas of Riga that were built during Soviet times (including area where I live) feels like Russia.)
So this is a bullshit argument that Soviets built houses, schools, infrastructure and factories for Latvians - they built these for Soviet migrants.
Late 1980s protests against Riga metro was not because Latvians do not like rapid transit (It is a pity that it was not built), but because it would mean even more immigration from the USSR.
Military, police, OMON and KGB officials had even more privileges - they were basically above the law. (Many were sent here from the rest of USSR to keep colonies in check) 
Now "former" chekists, former military and criminals are forbidden from naturalization. (Russia should have done the same with their KGB officials and communist party members)   

> State Language Inspectors spying on and harassing members of a national minority going about their daily business.

 You are trolling. That might be some Latvian radical nationalist's wet dream - thankfully that's not the case.
"Language police" only act if someone complains - it is more like customer service quality control.

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## BappaBa



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## nulle

About Waffen SS:
Nuremberg tribunal (which USSR also was a part of) decided that Waffen SS is a criminal organization *EXCEPT* Latvian and Estonian Legions.
They  were conscripted illegally (against Hague convention which prohibits  enlisting inhabitants of occupied territories - USSR also committed that  crime by conscripting Latvians into Red Army).
Many legionnaires were later tasked to guard German war criminals. LOUISiana Digital Library : Item Viewer OMTPJ-P-25
All Western countries recognize it.
The only country that is screaming about Waffen SS and nazism in Latvia is... surprise, surprise... Russia.
No  one else is paying any attention or commenting about  Latvian Legion Day - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - only Russia - every  year after Putin got power (in 90s even Russia did not care).
Even Israel is not saying anything. 
And,  I think, everybody knows how (in)famous Mossad is for hunting former  Nazi criminals and people that, they think, are threat to Israel.
Look what they did to get this guy: Adolf Eichmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And yet - they do not pay any attention to Latvian and Estonian Legionnaires - and these people aren't even hiding. 
And all Russia can is to spread propaganda, because they do not have any evidence to prosecute these people.

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## Pavelov

Actually, it's good for Latvians to have the cajones to stand up to the Bolsheviks and too bad they don't to the EU.   But, here, they celebrate and remember standing up to the Bolsheviks who were the real tyranny.  Mad March: Nazi SS &#39;glorified&#39; in Latvia - YouTube 
Even after the many millions they ended up killing, the Soviet luvers here still refuse to acknowledge.    Some Latvians still are conditioned by these brainwashers (hence, it is the tyrants who want to ban such marches and protests) and they are the real fascists. 
Who is more democratic, after all? 
Russians don't study their own history.   Shame.

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## mishau_

Эстонцы все шутят... _
День памяти жертв нацизма и сталинизма, отмечавшийся в Эстонии 23  августа, ознаменовался скандалом. На сайте местной газовой компании  GasTerm появилась фотография из концлагеря Освенцим, снабженная подписью  о преимуществах газового отопления. Снимок позднее убрали (на сайте был  опубликован небольшой комментарий с извинениями), а исполнительный  директор фирмы выступил с объяснениями. Из объяснений можно было сделать  вывод, что особого сожаления он не испытывает: представитель фирмы  назвал произошедшее "легкой провокацией" и рассказал анекдот про Гитлера  и счет за газ._

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