# Forum Learning Russian Language Resources for Studying Russian Russian Names  Foreigners making patronymics

## Harpobeamer

I heard that people who ARE NOT Russian should NOT even attempt to give themselves a patronymic, because it is insulting. But I just read in a Russian self-teacher book that "there is nothing stopping you from creating" your own patronymic. So tell me, is it bad or is it OK for an un-Russian to make a patronymic for themselves? *sigh* Not that I am about to give myself one and walk around telling people I have one. Thanks!
H.B.

----------


## scotcher

I've heard of people doing that, but it seems kind of pointless to me. Your name is your name. I mean, you don't change your name from John to Jean when you visit France. And what if your father had a completely un-Russian sounding name? My father's name was Keith, but I would feel a right berk calling myself Iain Keithovich  ::  
On the other hand, most of the Russians I met while I was there seemed to have a hard time understanding that 
a) I had a first name they'd never heard before (many of them flatly refused to use it, instead using the closest Russian equivalent, Ivan), and
b) That my middle name isn't a patronymic, it's just a middle name, and as such means absolutely nothing (well, it's actually my grandfather's name, but that just confused matters even further).

----------


## MasterAdmin

I don't see anything wrong or insulting if a foreigner wants to have a patronymic. But often it just doesn't sound Russian and is funny.

----------


## mike

Well, it can't hurt when you're still learning Russian, but it seems kind of dumb once you visit the country.  Look at high school foreign language classes, where they make you "get into it."  There were kids outside the god damn Spanish class who kept calling me Miguel for four years, and then other kids would hear them and think that was really my name.  It wasn't so bad, but if I ever took a trip to Barcelona I wouldn't go around calling myself that like a tourist yutz.

----------


## garmonistka

It might be useful to give yourself a patronymic if for example you are a doctor or a professor, because it makes it easier for people to address you in a respectful manner? Or do people address foreigners differently?

----------


## Dogboy182

how would mine sound ? "Матт Кербинов"   ::  looks like somthing from the new terminator movie.

----------


## jejik

The president's name of my compony is Andre, but it is very uncomfortable to address him so. Luckily his father was from Poland and his name was quiet Russian. We call him Andre Antonovich.

----------


## z80

> The president's name of my compony is Andre, but it is very uncomfortable to address him so. Luckily his father was from Poland and his name was quiet Russian. We call him Andre Antonovich.

 You don't work for the UN do you Jejik?   ::

----------


## jejik

No I work for a telecommunication company.

----------


## Oddo

how about Эдмунд Ричардович? Does that sound stupid? (don't say that the Edmund bit is stupid cos it's my real name not one I'm making up)

----------


## Tu-160

Эдмунд Ричардович looks just amazing. Almost Russian name but a bit difficult to pronounce.

----------


## mike

Well anyone who names their kid Edmund in this day and age must really hate their son, so I see no reason why you should show him any respect.

----------


## Oddo

:P What's wrong with Edmund? It's not like I'm called Edwin..haha...and at least you won't get teachers confused at school..in our class there is a Matthew Burgess and a Matthew Burt next to eachother in the register and a Ben Davey and Ben Francis next to eachother in the register. There's only two other Edmunds in thw whole school..

----------


## mike

I don't know, it sounds like something you'd name your kid in the seventeenth century.

----------


## Oddo

I guess that's just an american thing. We laugh at names like Bob Junior and Chuck (whatever that's supposed to be short for) maybe only Tv characters are called stuff like that though..

----------


## Propp

Эдмунд Ричардович -- this sounds really cool!  ::  Like an English king's name (made in Russian manner in order to be more funny and amazing).

----------


## mike

> I guess that's just an american thing. We laugh at names like Bob Junior and Chuck (whatever that's supposed to be short for) maybe only Tv characters are called stuff like that though..

 Chuck is short for Charles--it's a nickname (and one I don't think anyone's used since the 60s).  It's like Ethel or Gerty or Lemuel or Edna or Vera.  Nobody names their kids those things anymore.

----------


## Oddo

in any case, Edmund is not a common name here, but people think of it as perfectly normal. I think its not that uncommon in France, but they spell it Edmond (yuk!)

----------


## emka71aln

Actually, it seems to me that old fashioned names are getting popular again in the US, so Edmund is actually a pretty cool name to have.   
Does anything like this ever happen in Russia, where names go in and out of "style"?

----------


## Oddo

argh that's what I'm saying! It's *NOT* regareded as old fashioned here.[/b]

----------


## JJ

> Actually, it seems to me that old fashioned names are getting popular again in the US, so Edmund is actually a pretty cool name to have.   
> Does anything like this ever happen in Russia, where names go in and out of "style"?

 Sure it does. For example a female name Anastasiya was out of style for a long time. I almost don't meet women of 40 years old named like this. But my grandma was Anastasiya, she was born in 1911 and I met some girls of 18-23 named Anastasiya too. I've called my young daughter Anastasiya.  ::

----------


## Oddo

Anastacia is a nice posh girls' name in English. is it derived from Russian?

----------


## JJ

> Anastacia is a nice posh girls' name in English. is it derived from Russian?

 This is not russian name actually. This is an ancient Greek name and it means "(she) rised from the dead". Nastya is diminutive form of Anastasiya.

----------


## TheMoonMonst3r

I see nothing wrong with foriegners making patronimics if they are living in Russia, to adapt to their culture.  Who cares if it sounds funny.  Maybe you could lie and make up your own patronimic.   
(ie if my fathers name was John, I would not be Джоночев, I would change it to Иваночев)

----------


## JJ

> I see nothing wrong with foriegners making patronimics if they are living in Russia, to adapt to their culture.  Who cares if it sounds funny.  Maybe you could lie and make up your own patronimic.

 The german's names don't sound funny. The governor of my region is Эдуард Эргартович Россель, he is russian german and his name sounds not bad.  

> (ie if my fathers name was John, I would not be Джоночев, I would change it to Иваночев)

 Джон->Джон*ович*, Иван->Иван*ович*

----------


## TheMoonMonst3r

> Джон->Джон*ович*, Иван->Иван*ович*

 You're right

----------


## Gollandski Yozh

> Originally Posted by Oddo  Anastacia is a nice posh girls' name in English. is it derived from Russian?   This is not russian name actually. This is an ancient Greek name and it means "(she) rised from the dead". Nastya is diminutive form of Anastasiya.

 I read that most girls' names in Russian aren't really Russian. There are only three exeptions: Vera, Lyubov' (Lyuba) and Nadezhda. All others are of Greek or other origin.

----------


## JJ

> Originally Posted by JJ        Originally Posted by Oddo  Anastacia is a nice posh girls' name in English. is it derived from Russian?   This is not russian name actually. This is an ancient Greek name and it means "(she) rised from the dead". Nastya is diminutive form of Anastasiya.   I read that most girls' names in Russian aren't really Russian. There are only three exeptions: Vera, Lyubov' (Lyuba) and Nadezhda. All others are of Greek or other origin.

 Йожык, you are right that a lot of female names are not Russian, but you're wrong about only 3 exeption.  ::   There are many names like Lyudmila (Людмила - людям мила - people like her, Svetlana (Светлана - the root is свет - light), Lada (Лада - from old russian pretty, lovely), Vlada (Влада - the root is влад- like in a word владеть - to own, posses), Rada (Рада - from the word радость - joy) and so on.

----------


## Pravit

in a lot of Russian literature there seems to be some character that is either french or german and they have a weird patronymic...whats her face, the Marmeladov's landlady was German and she had a patronymic like "Yohanovna", and also I think Lara's mother had some weird french or german patronymic.. 
By the way, Oddo, it seems "Nicola" or some variant of it is an extremely popular name in the UK. Is that true?

----------


## mike

> in a lot of Russian literature there seems to be some character that is either french or german and they have a weird patronymic...whats her face, the Marmeladov's landlady was German and she had a patronymic like "Yohanovna", and also I think Lara's mother had some weird french or german patronymic.. 
> By the way, Oddo, it seems "Nicola" or some variant of it is an extremely popular name in the UK. Is that true?

 What's weird about Yohanovna?  The name Johann is very common in Germany.  Or it used to be in the 19th century; I don't know about now.

----------


## Oddo

> in a lot of Russian literature there seems to be some character that is either french or german and they have a weird patronymic...whats her face, the Marmeladov's landlady was German and she had a patronymic like "Yohanovna", and also I think Lara's mother had some weird french or german patronymic.. 
> By the way, Oddo, it seems "Nicola" or some variant of it is an extremely popular name in the UK. Is that true?

 Nicola and Nicole are both fairly common names in the UK, for example my next door neighbour is called Nicole and my sister's friend is called Nicola

----------


## Pravit

Do the Brits really pronounce "Schedule" "Shedule" and not "Skedule"?
You'd think its from the "Sch" german thing, but they don't say "Shool"  ::

----------


## mike

I've heard them say "schism" like "shizm" too.  Technically it is supposed to be pronounced "sizm" but "skizm" is more common.  However, neither schism nor school nor schedule are from German.  They're Latin words loaned from Greece, and as we all know the Latin diphthong ch (kh in Greek) is equivalent to the Russian hard h.  So, it is grammatically incorrect to say "shedule" (not to mention annoying).  For once it is the Americans who are pronouncing something right   ::

----------


## Propp

Yes, in this case Americans are definitely right.  ::

----------


## Oddo

pronounciation is defined by common use, not by which language its from... speaking of common use changing meaning: 
On being elected president - Nixon: "I can't believe the enormity of what has happened" 
enormity is actually supposed to mean absolutely wicked and terrible. Perhaps he might have chose a more flattering word.... 
PS: americans, stop saying tomayto. It makes my brain melt...

----------


## mike

> pronounciation is defined by common use, not by which language its from... speaking of common use changing meaning: 
> On being elected president - Nixon: "I can't believe the enormity of what has happened" 
> enormity is actually supposed to mean absolutely wicked and terrible. Perhaps he might have chose a more flattering word.... 
> PS: americans, stop saying tomayto. It makes my brain melt...

 If pronunciation is defined by common use, then why should the US be the ones who change?  According to the Encyclopedia Britannica 69% of the 427m native English speakers in the world are from the United States.  A two-thirds majority makes it seem pretty commonplace to me.   ::   
Note: in all there are 1.5 billion English speakers, but it would be both impossible to estimate how many say "tomayto" versus "tomahto," and silly to regard a non-native speaker's opinion (for the same reason no one would consider our opinions on Russian grammatical issues).

----------


## Propp

> pronounciation is defined by common use, not by which language its from...

 But why then do you pronounce "character" as "Karakter"? Pronounce [*ch*aracter] if you are so logical.  ::     

> PS: americans, stop saying tomayto. It makes my brain melt...

   ::

----------


## Tu-160

We should make our own Russian rules of pronounciation English words. Word "tomato" we will pronounce like "pomydoro". It will become a newest and most modern English dialekt  ::

----------


## Oddo

> If pronunciation is defined by common use, then why should the US be the ones who change?  According to the Encyclopedia Britannica 69% of the 427m native English speakers in the world are from the United States.  A two-thirds majority makes it seem pretty commonplace to me.    
> Note: in all there are 1.5 billion English speakers, but it would be both impossible to estimate how many say "tomayto" versus "tomahto," and silly to regard a non-native speaker's opinion (for the same reason no one would consider our opinions on Russian grammatical issues).

 1.The tomayto thing just gets on my nerves.
2. Who is this non-native speaker? Does one now need to be american to be a native speaker or is the dumbing-down of America so widespread that an average american cannot recognise the british flag?
3. If the encylopedia is correct then the US has nearly 300,000,000 native english speakers

----------


## mike

> Originally Posted by mike  If pronunciation is defined by common use, then why should the US be the ones who change?  According to the Encyclopedia Britannica 69% of the 427m native English speakers in the world are from the United States.  A two-thirds majority makes it seem pretty commonplace to me.    
> Note: in all there are 1.5 billion English speakers, but it would be both impossible to estimate how many say "tomayto" versus "tomahto," and silly to regard a non-native speaker's opinion (for the same reason no one would consider our opinions on Russian grammatical issues).   1.The tomayto thing just gets on my nerves.
> 2. Who is this non-native speaker? Does one now need to be american to be a native speaker or is the dumbing-down of America so widespread that an average american cannot recognise the british flag?

 A non-native speaker is someone who does not speak English as a first language.  To me at least, the grammatical usage preferences of these people are negligible (and incalculable).  And it's not that America is dumbed down (well, perhaps it is, but not in this case), but that you apparently can't read your own language.  The sentence I wrote was rather straightforward and I have no idea how you took it to be talking about you.  I think you need to take the language stick out of your pooper, Edmund.   

> 3. If the encylopedia is correct then the US has nearly 300,000,000 native english speakers

 Very sorry, that was a typo.  It's *3*27m.  Or more exactly, 326,652,000.  The number of native-English speakers in the US is 224,900,000.  This accounts for 68.85%.  To put things into comparison, the UK had 56,830,000 native English speakers (or 17.39%).  Note that these numbers are from 1995, and have probably increased.  I have no idea where I would begin to find more recent data, but I doubt the percentages have changed significantly.

----------


## Rose

Why o why do Brits and Yanks always end up scrapping on message boards?   PS the ay in stead of ah makes my brain melt too, but shh

----------


## emka71aln

Is it even fair to compare Americans vs British, since Americans don't all talk the same?  You can hear something in New England, then go down south and it sounds completely different, and then go out west and it sounds like neither of the first two.  Example: Do you call it pop, coke, or soda?  Do you say Hey, Hi, Howdy, or Hello?  The first year I lived in North Carolina I couldn't understand half of what my English teacher said cause she had such a strong AMERICAN southern accent.  Go figure.  So, all of this bickering should really be broken down much further.

----------


## Jasper May

As if the whole of England speaks the same... I believe I read somewhere that England has one of the biggest varieties in accents per head.

----------


## drafter

One of my daughters is named Johanna, but we pronounce it with an english J instead of a german J.  Not too uncommon these days.

----------


## Oddo

there aren't really many different British accents. All of the south-east speaks londonish english (like me) the south-west is similar. All of norht england is fairly uniform, slightly different vowels, but nothing much. The only difficulties are strong irish or scottish accents (like Glaswegian! Totally incomprehensible!) 
PS Joanne and Joanna are both common names here too

----------


## Jasper May

To say the whole south-west of England speaks the same is to say that all the southern States of America speak the same. Maybe to a londoner there's no difference between a dorset, devonshire and cornish accent, but there is. And Liverpudlian couldn't be more different from Brummie...

----------


## Pravit

Interesting to know, are there dialects within England? Methinks there aren't.

----------


## змма

I've lived in england and there are a huge amount of dialects

----------


## Pravit

Dialects as in "Hey, he's from a different region, he's really hard to understand, uses words I've never heard of, and speaks incorrectly"?

----------


## змма

yes

----------


## Jasper May

Then it's no dialect...

----------


## змма

There are many dialects in the UK 
Scots Gaelic
Manx Gaelic
Cornish
Welsh

----------


## bad manners

> There are many dialects in the UK 
> Scots Gaelic
> Manx Gaelic
> Cornish
> Welsh

 These are not dialects. These are languages that have nothing to do with English.

----------


## scotcher

Scots (not Gaelic, or English spoken with a Scottish accent) is certainly a dialect. Up intil the 17th century it was officially considered a separate language, until English cultural imperialism began to stamp it out.  
Usage varies today along a spectrum from Scottish-accented English, which all English speakers can understand without difficulty, to a Scots/English mix whereby many old Scots words are used in favour of English words but the basic language remains English, which other English speakers are able to understand to an extent, though with difficulty (the majority of Scottish people speak this hybrid), to the extreme end of the scale which is pure Scots, and is entirely unintelligible to anyone who doesn't speak it (including most Scottish people). 
Moves are afoot in the Scottish Parliament to protect Scots in the same way that other minority languages (such as Gaelic) are protected in law, but this has so far proved fruitless due to the presistent prejudice that assumes that Scots is just English spoken by the ignorant (exactly the reason it was stamped out in the first place). Kind of ironic considering Scots' Law is almost entirely written and practiced in Scots.

----------


## waxwing

Of course Gaelic is not a dialect, but a different language, and the same for Welsh but.. 
What is Geordie, if not a dialect?
There are many dialects in the UK... aren't there?

----------


## Oddo

most of these so called dialects are just accents. I don't believe I said that Liverpool and Brummie sound the same - if I did I take it back, I meant only to say that they are easily intelligible. 
P.S. I am not from London, I am from Kent, but the accent is still virtually the same. It is a "home-counties" accent found in Kent, Surrey, Sussex, London etc. It is known to other parts of the country as "posh southerner speak"

----------


## amazon princess

Can we get back on track with the whole purpose of this thread please? Ok first of all, my name is Maricruz Serrato, how would it be in cyrillic? Also, I have a little problem...or question I should say...my biological father's last name was Perez but my stepfather adopted me and therefore I now have his last name. If I were to give myself a patronymic, which would be appropriate to use? Efrain (bio-father's name) or Felipe (stepdad)? Help!  ::   Oh and I am going to be a professor in Russia...

----------


## garmonistka

> Can we get back on track with the whole purpose of this thread please? Ok first of all, my name is Maricruz Serrato, how would it be in cyrillic? Also, I have a little problem...or question I should say...my biological father's last name was Perez but my stepfather adopted me and therefore I now have his last name. If I were to give myself a patronymic, which would be appropriate to use? Efrain (bio-father's name) or Felipe (stepdad)? Help!   Oh and I am going to be a professor in Russia...

 what subject? In the near or distant future?  ::

----------


## PsiLord

> my name is Maricruz Serrato, how would it be in cyrillic?

 Hmmm, guessing a 'standard' Spanish pronunciation, maybe _Марикруз Серрато_ would do. But I might be mistaken — I've seen the names of Brazilian actors and actresses spelt in Russian in ways that I wouldn't have guessed if I were to base myself on the original Portuguese pronunciation... I've even had _Марсель_ suggested for my own name in the past, but _Марсел_ sounds much closer to the way I pronounce it myself, so that's what I go around with.

----------


## Propp

I think, it is Марикрус, because z in Spanish sounds like [s].
Perhaps Brasilian name should be Марсел indeed, because they have very distinct hard consonant "л" there. But many Russians don't know this and try to use more soft consonant "ль" like in Spanish or French. Besides Марсель is an official name of the very well-known city in France.
The translators from Portuguese should know this anyhow.

----------


## translationsnmru

> how about Эдмунд Ричардович? Does that sound stupid? (don't say that the Edmund bit is stupid cos it's my real name not one I'm making up)

 You can found quite a few Edmunds in Russia. "Ричард" is less common, but you can find some Richards too (and I mean native Russians). So this combination is not improbable.  
By the way, 200 or so years ago it was very common thing for Russian to call all the foreigners "по имени-отчеству".

----------


## PsiLord

What would be the rules for the formation of a patronymic? I mean, sometimes the name the patronymic derives from remains the same plus the ending, but sometimes there seem to be a change in the spelling altogether — would these be regarded as exceptions or are there phonological / spelling rules for them, too? And would there indeed be such rules that would allow one to make up a patronymic from a given name, or does it take some 'native-like feeling' for such a task? 
TIA!  ::

----------


## Larissa

My name is Lori but if I take the closest Russian name to mine and my made up patronymic, my dad's name is Phil it would be Лариса Филиповна which I don't think sounds too bad.   ::

----------


## Alware

> My name is Lori but if I take the closest Russian name to mine and my made up patronymic, my dad's name is Phil it would be Лариса Филиповна which I don't think sounds too bad.

 One of my school teachers had that name Лариса Филип*п*овна

----------


## Tambakis

My dads name is Landon, is it just me or does that sound really weird?

----------


## BlackMage

My name is Steve, but for Russian class we are assigned Russian names.
Evidentally Steve = Дмитрий.

----------


## olga

i thought Steve would be степан?

----------


## BlackMage

Maybe so.  I just showed up to class and the teachers like what name do you want.  And I read down the list and found Дмитрий.  Thats about it.

----------


## Jasper May

I do not know thee, Mr SmartDude Sir, but shouldn't it be 'evidently'? Took me a whole minute to figure out what was wrong about that word. I'm not too bright.

----------


## ElenaSerleva

I personaly have nothing wrong with forigners making patronymic. But I just have to wonder, why would they want to follow our Russian ways, when they have their own?

----------


## Der Meister

Whats happens if you're a junior? I'd be Norman Normanovich?

----------


## Indra

> Whats happens if you're a junior? I'd be Norman Normanovich?

 Sure

----------


## Porosenok

> I personaly have nothing wrong with forigners making patronymic. But I just have to wonder, why would they want to follow our Russian ways, when they have their own?

 I think the big intrest is mainly because it is 'different' than what we are used to. For me atleast, its always fun and interesting to see how your name would sound look, in another language. 
I think its really cool that so many people are open minded/interested into Russian culture (and other countries), instead of criticizing things they are not used to.

----------


## Friendy

At school I liked making patronymics for foreign scientists.  ::

----------


## Angel_of_Death-NZ

And I liked drawing funny pictures in textbooks.

----------


## Friendy

> And I liked drawing funny pictures in textbooks.

 I drew black eyes to the characters in my English textbook pics. (with pencil so that I could erase them later, but some people did it with pen)

----------


## TheMoonMonst3r

When I took spanish we had a text book and there was one picture that had some latina women running... sorta like this picture.   
I drew police car behind them sorta like this picture.    
Anyways if I had oppurtinity to move to Russia and change the name I behold now it would be "Cocky Cockovich Cockovsky".  Кокий кокович коковский

----------


## Angel_of_Death-NZ

i remember seeing in a history book a ww2 pilot giving a 'peace' sign with his fingers...so i scrathed out the index finger so now he is flippin the world off!!! lol.  in my drivers ed book there was so much more drawings lol.

----------


## ElenaSerleva

> Originally Posted by ElenaSerleva  I personaly have nothing wrong with forigners making patronymic. But I just have to wonder, why would they want to follow our Russian ways, when they have their own?   I think the big intrest is mainly because it is 'different' than what we are used to. For me atleast, its always fun and interesting to see how your name would sound look, in another language. 
> I think its really cool that so many people are open minded/interested into Russian culture (and other countries), instead of criticizing things they are not used to.

 I agree with you. I think it is wonderful that American/English etc. etc. are experimenting with the ways of other cutures. I am from Russia. I was born and reaised in Lenengrad/St. Petersburg. And I myself love experimenting with forigen cultuers (i.e-American). But, I always remember my true roots.

----------


## boisebret

How about**:   
Брет Нелсоновиш? 
My middle name is actually Nelson, which is my father's first name....

----------


## Friendy

> How about**:   
> Брет Нелсоновиш? 
> My middle name is actually Nelson, which is my father's first name....

 It would be "Нелсон*овна*". "Нелсонович" is masculine.

----------


## boisebret

If I'm a man, taking my father's name, SHOULDN'T it be masuline??

----------


## Friendy

Oh, I'm so sorry  :: , somehow I didn't doubt (without any reason obviously) that Bret was a female name, sorry.

----------


## boisebret

So the masculine patronymic you supplied me, would work??

----------


## Anna

> So the masculine patronymic you supplied me, would work??

 Yes, Брет Нелсонович, it would.

----------


## boisebret

Anna: 
Спасибо! 
Bret/Брет

----------


## QWERTYZ

скорее даже Брет Нельсонович 
ведь одноглазому адмиралу тоже мягкий знак добавили ...

----------

