# Forum Learning Russian Language Translate This!  How you translate 'Moscow' in Russian letters?

## Meran

How you translate 'Moscow' in Russianletters?
Thanx!
Meran

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## Friendy

Москва

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## TATY

Москоу  :P

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## Darobat

Ты-не-сделаешь.

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## Meran

Is it Москва or Москоу?????   ::

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## Kamion

It

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## kwatts59

Depending on use 
Москва
Москву
Москвы
Москве
Москвой

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## Milanya1

> Depending on use 
> Москва
> Москву
> Москвы
> Москве
> Москвой

 Стихи Дмитрия Сухарева (1980)
Музыка Сергея Никитина 
        Сладострастная отрава - золотая Бричмула,
         Где чинара притулилась под скалою, - под скалою...
         Про тебя жужжит над ухом вечная пчела:
         Бричмула, Бричмулы, Бричмуле, Бричмулу, Бричмулою.

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## Pravit

[quote=Kamion]It

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## TATY

[quote=Kamion]It

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## TATY

> Depending on use 
> Москва
> Москву
> Москвы
> Москве
> Москвой

 Московский
Московская
Московское
Московские
Московского
Московской
Московским
Московскими
Московском
Московскому
Московских

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## Meran

[quote=TATY][quote=Kamion]It

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## Meran

I'll use Москва...

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## kwatts59

> Ehm, I'm a she....   
> I'll use Москва...

 I'm a he....  ::   
Use Москва in the subject of a sentence.
Use Москву in the object of a sentence.
Gender does not matter.

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## Propp

[quote=TATY][quote=Kamion]It

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by Meran  Ehm, I'm a she....   
> I'll use Москва...   I'm a he....   
> Use Москва in the subject of a sentence.
> Use Москву in the object of a sentence.
> Gender does not matter.

 What if she wants to say "The Moscow Kremlin" or "The Moscow State Circus"

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## Rosa Anna

OK. Could someone please explain...
If the name of the city is москва (Mos-kva)(?) than why the ... is it written 
Mos-cow? 
???
I mean.... aren't all we all elsewhere saying it wrong? 
If so...why does it continue is my question.

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## kwatts59

> Originally Posted by kwatts59        Originally Posted by Meran  Ehm, I'm a she....   
> I'll use Москва...   I'm a he....   
> Use Москва in the subject of a sentence.
> Use Москву in the object of a sentence.
> Gender does not matter.   What if she wants to say "The Moscow Kremlin" or "The Moscow State Circus"

 Then she would have to use Московский and gender of the following noun would matter.  I was just giving a couple of examples.   

> If the name of the city is москва (Mos-kva)(?) than why the ... is it written 
> Mos-cow?

 москва is Russian
Moscow is English
That's just the way it is.  I don't know how the kva got replaced by cow in the translation. 
BTW, I missread the reason for Meran's comment "Ehm, I'm a she...."  Sorry about that.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> москва is Russian
> Moscow is English
> That's just the way it is.  I don't know how the kva got replaced by cow in the translation.

 Maybe, just maybe, they thought the ква meant корова and therefore translated it as cow?!??!??

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## chaika

OK, so how do you think they spell the city Cologne in German? 
It's a lucky city that can have its name translated/transliterated and still come out close to correct sounding!

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## Pravit

Dunno, IMO K

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## net surfer

> Maybe, just maybe, they thought the ква meant корова and therefore translated it as cow?!??!??

 No, ква means "frog".

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## kwatts59

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Maybe, just maybe, they thought the ква meant корова and therefore translated it as cow?!??!??   No, ква means "frog".

 So the English name should be Mosfrog.   ::

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## Zhenya

In Swedish it's Moskva, anyway...
In Finnish........Moskova

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## TheMoonMonst3r

> So the English name should be Mosfrog.

 
I'VE BEEN SAYING THAT FOR YEARS.  The capital city of Russia is Mosfrog, and I'll be long gone in the cold dead dirt before I recognize Moscow as a city.

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## TATY

Firstly, Americans tend to pronounce Moscow, like the Germans do Moss-cow. But the most common way to pronoucne the English word Moscow is Moss-ko. That's how it is in British English. 
I believe Moscow comes from Московский (the adjectival form of Moscow) or something. It has the root Moscov, and in Polish and German and other languages, v = w, like Krakow (pronounce Crack-off), therefore you get Moscow. 
The root of Moskva is Moskv, and from this the adjective Moskovskiy is formed with the help of the fill vowel o between the k and v. 
So to conclude, if you take into account that an Eastern European W = an English V, you get Moskwa (this is just as much a valid transliteration as Moskva). 
Moskowskiy ---> Moskow ---> Moscow 
So the Enlgish word didn't come from nowhere. 
Why do we say Rome when it's Roma in Italian, why do we say Hungary when it's Magyarorsz

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## Meran

I just wanna know how I must write that name. I don't will use it in a sentence. What is Goodbye in Russian letters? That's something like Do Swid

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## TATY

[quote=Meran]I just wanna know how I must write that name. I don't will use it in a sentence. What is Goodbye in Russian letters? That's something like Do Swid

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## Meran

No, from The Netherlands

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## GKnight

> OK. Could someone please explain...
> If the name of the city is москва (Mos-kva)(?) than why the ... is it written 
> Mos-cow? 
> ???
> I mean.... aren't all we all elsewhere saying it wrong? 
> If so...why does it continue is my question.

 It could have something to do with the vocabulary of the native speaker's language.  I cannot think of very many English words that do not have a vowel on both sides of a V if it is in the middle of a word.  I think the "kva" sound in Moskva would be difficult for many English speakers who are not familiar with eastern European languages, and Moss-ko is an easier alternative to pronounce.

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## TATY

Moskva isn't at all hard for English speakers to say.

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## Rosa Anna

> It could have something to do with the vocabulary of the native speaker's language.  I cannot think of very many English words that do not have a vowel on both sides of a V if it is in the middle of a word.  I think the "kva" sound in Moskva would be difficult for many English speakers who are not familiar with eastern European languages, and Moss-ko is an easier alternative to pronounce.

 Hi GKnight, 
But we do have sk. Mosk-vah. flask. mask. sky. ski. 
Shrugs.

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## GKnight

It was just a guess I figured I'd throw out there.. 
I know there was a discussion back and forth about the pronounciation of Vitali Klitschko's first name during advertisements when he fought in Germany.  It had something to do with the way Germans had a difficult time pronouncing his name, so they changed the pronounciation of his name for that fight.  American boxing then thought the German pronounciation was correct and began saying his name incorrectly - finally he told everyone the correct way to say Vitali. 
The discussion was between saying "VIT-a-li" or "vi-TAL-i" - I don't know the reasoning for the German pronounciation.. I don't speak German.  ::  
Regarding Moskva - perhaps something similar happened in the pronounciation from various cultures to evolve it to Moss-ko in the USA.

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## Rosa Anna

> It was just a guess I figured I'd throw out there.. 
> I know there was a discussion back and forth about the pronounciation of Vitali Klitschko's first name during advertisements when he fought in Germany.  It had something to do with the way Germans had a difficult time pronouncing his name, so they changed the pronounciation of his name for that fight.  American boxing then thought the German pronounciation was correct and began saying his name incorrectly - finally he told everyone the correct way to say Vitali. 
> The discussion was between saying "VIT-a-li" or "vi-TAL-i" - I don't know the reasoning for the German pronounciation.. I don't speak German.  
> Regarding Moskva - perhaps something similar happened in the pronounciation from various cultures to evolve it to Moss-ko in the USA.

 Florida, huh.. how's the weather?    ::  (answer, fablous (sp) of course)  :: 
I can see where cultures and dialects find it easier to pronounce it all funny instead of learning a closer pronunciation. I mean, I didn't even know the correct "name" was other than Moss-Cow until I found this site. Then I felt cheated. I've never heard an English speaker say Moss-ko though they may. It always sounds like Cow as in livestock. America seemed so intimidated by Russian progress in technology when I was younger that I guess I just sorta figured it was... well, nevermind anyway, I thought it was used so as an insult--because it's perfectly easy to pronounce in English mosk-va. I would like to see it pronounced and understood correctly, not like that's going to happen unless Russia puts it's foot down with the UN or something. If it even bothers them enough.
My pet piev I think.  
Have a great day!

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## TATY

Moss-cow sounds stupid to British people. So does Cra-cow (for Krakow).

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## GKnight

> Florida, huh.. how's the weather?    (answer, fablous (sp) of course) 
> I can see where cultures and dialects find it easier to pronounce it all funny instead of learning a closer pronunciation. I mean, I didn't even know the correct "name" was other than Moss-Cow until I found this site. Then I felt cheated. I've never heard an English speaker say Moss-ko though they may. It always sounds like Cow as in livestock. America seemed so intimidated by Russian progress in technology when I was younger that I guess I just sorta figured it was... well, nevermind anyway, I thought it was used so as an insult--because it's perfectly easy to pronounce in English mosk-va. I would like to see it pronounced and understood correctly, not like that's going to happen unless Russia puts it's foot down with the UN or something. If it even bothers them enough.
> My pet piev I think.  
> Have a great day!

 I agree - why not call places what they are instead of making up other names for them? It bothers me too.   ::   Weather is currently sunny with temperature: 85F/29C, and I'm tired of it.  I miss snow skiing.  Well, I miss snow period!  Having two "seasons" - sunny or raining - is not so wonderful.  Christmas just isn't right when you can go to the beach instead of gather next to the fireplace.  The grass is always greener on the other side..

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## Ядерное лицо

> Originally Posted by Rosa Anna  OK. Could someone please explain...
> If the name of the city is москва (Mos-kva)(?) than why the ... is it written 
> Mos-cow? 
> ???
> I mean.... aren't all we all elsewhere saying it wrong? 
> If so...why does it continue is my question.   It could have something to do with the vocabulary of the native speaker's language.  I cannot think of very many English words that do not have a vowel on both sides of a V if it is in the middle of a word.  I think the "kva" sound in Moskva would be difficult for many English speakers who are not familiar with eastern European languages, and Moss-ko is an easier alternative to pronounce.

  

> Moskva isn't at all hard for English speakers to say.

 It's not that English-speakers can't say the -kv- sound, just that it's very unusual, so at some point in history, the pronunciation of Maskva was changed in our language to suit our ways of pronunciation. 
True, there aren't many words in the English language that have a -v- next to a consonant sound, but there are a few.
Envoy, envy, invaluable, svelte, convey, kvetch, dovecote (remember that I said "consonant sounds": давкоут) and valve - there's a good start. 
The English language just generally doesn't allow the same combinations of consonant sounds as Russian does, e.g. -vm-, -vn-, -vl-, -vr-, -vs- etc. 
Bear in mind that the same thing happens when Russian-speakers try to pronounce English words. The -th- consonant sound and vowel combinations like the /aue/ in "sour", the /au/ in "round", the /aie/ in "fire" can often be mispronounced. 
I'm sure that most people on this board would agree that when you are learning a foreign language, the pronunciation seems weird and uncomfortable, but you adapt in order to speak the new language. When one word is imported to a different language (as would be the case with a place name of a major city like Moscow) then that one word will be mispronounced to fit in more comfortably with the rest of the language.

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## DDT

Interesting, but who was the wanker who first started to pronounce it Moss-Cow? 
It was always Moscow until more recently (2 or 3 decades). It wouldn't surprise me if it was some television news anchor. They have a habit of butchering foreign names.

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## TATY

> Interesting, but who was the wanker who first started to pronounce it Moss-Cow? 
> It was always Moscow until more recently (2 or 3 decades). It wouldn't surprise me if it was some television news anchor. They have a habit of butchering foreign names.

 saying "Moss-cow" instead of "Moss-ko" is such an American thing to do. 
It's like when I hear American's pronounce names like Makowsky (Ma-cow-skee). It's fucking Ma-koff-skee. 
I watched the Russian film Ya shagayu po Moskve dubbed into English (by American actors) and they were all saying Moss-cow, except one guy who said Moss-ko.

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## Indra

> I agree - why not call places what they are instead of making up other names for them? It bothers me too.    Weather is currently sunny with temperature: 85F/29C, and I'm tired of it.  I miss snow skiing.  Well, I miss snow period!  Having two "seasons" - sunny or raining - is not so wonderful.  Christmas just isn't right when you can go to the beach instead of gather next to the fireplace.  The grass is always greener on the other side..

 May I say, not the grass is greener, rather than the snow is whiter - at the moment  ::  Sorry, if it is all incorrect, I meant to say, у нас не столько трава зеленее, сколько снег белее, в данный момент(because there's no grass yet, only snow)

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## FL

> Firstly, Americans tend to pronounce Moscow, like the Germans do Moss-cow. But the most common way to pronoucne the English word Moscow is Moss-ko. That's how it is in British English. 
> I believe Moscow comes from Московский (the adjectival form of Moscow) or something. It has the root Moscov, and in Polish and German and other languages, v = w, like Krakow (pronounce Crack-off), therefore you get Moscow. 
> The root of Moskva is Moskv, and from this the adjective Moskovskiy is formed with the help of the fill vowel o between the k and v. 
> So to conclude, if you take into account that an Eastern European W = an English V, you get Moskwa (this is just as much a valid transliteration as Moskva). 
> Moskowskiy ---> Moskow ---> Moscow 
> So the Enlgish word didn't come from nowhere. 
> Why do we say Rome when it's Roma in Italian, why do we say Hungary when it's Magyarorsz&aacute;g in Hungarian? 
> The genitive plural of Москва would be Москов I think aswell.

 
There are many hypotheses about etymology of 'Moscow'. But no one of them is definitive.   
First of all most common viewpoint is the capital of Russia takes its name from the river Moskva on which it sits. 
Short historical excursus:
Moscow (Moskva) itself was founded in 1147 as one of the outward posts of the Old Russian kingdoms in the forests occupied by native Finno-Ugric tribes, the ancestors of modern Russians (80% of the topographic names in the modern central Russia have the Finno-Ugric roots).
III millenium B.C.  
quote from (The Lost World of Meshchera)
see the link for more details http://www.egorievsk.ru/eng/history/lwmecshera.html 
“
A thousand years ago the political and ethnical map was very different. The forest plains of the North-East of Europe, from the Urals to the Lapland was populated by the Finno-Ugrian peoples, the ancestors of modern Finns, Hungarians, Estonians, Mordvins, Mari, Udmurts and many others, including those living in the Russian North and Western Siberia. 
The earliest written mention - а church document "Tolcovaya Paleya" ( с 13 AD) [7] listed Meshchera with the other nations, populating the territory which would become Russia [8]. Later the chroniclers specified its exact habitat as "along Oka river where it flows to Volga" [11], side by side with Mari, Merja, Mordvin and Murom people. All of them made the Volgo-Finnish tribal union [2] which not later than the first half of the 1st millennium AD considerably diverged culturally and linguistically.  
The Meshchera were not as big in number as their neighbors, but they also consisted of few relating tribes. They occupied both banks of Oka river from the mouth of Pronya to Moksha river and neighboring with the Mordvins and Mourom on the low Oka. Some tribes lived far down South, to the modern Tambov region and up North, bordering with the lands of Merya on Klyazma river. 
The great Volga trade route (Upper Volga - Klyazma - Moscow - Oka) went via lands of Meshchera. The trade and craftsmanship grew up and required a big deal of row materials, especially copper. Some Oka nations, for instance The Mordvins, had develop the feudal society. Meshchera, being at the lower stage of its development, went through the gradual disintegration of its tribal structure. The coming Slavs accelerated all these processes from the c 8-9 AD along Oka to c 10 - 11 AD in the Oka - Klyazma plains.  
At the beginning the Slavs settled apart from Finns, but soon the population started to mix. The Meshcherian burials of c 11-12 AD demonstrate this thought the cultural contacts occurred long before, especially between Baltic, Slavic and Finnish (including Meshchera) tribes along Oka water way. To the 11-12th centuries the aboriginal tribes of the Volga-Oka plains such as Merja and Murom have been disintegrated and assimilated by Slavs. The most part of the Meshchera also has been russified, but its remaining settlements had been surviving long after in the virgin forests of the left low bank of Oka, from Tsna in the West to Gous' in the East. Soon the Old Russian princedoms were organized. The towns of Ryazan, Pereslavl' Ryazansky (the end of c 11 AD) and Kolomna (c 12 AD) were built. In 1152 Gorodets (later called Gorodets Meshchersky and Kasymov) has been built just amidst the lands of Meshchera. The town had mixed population [12]. The Meshchera of the right bank of Oka also was assimilated, not only by Slavs but also by Mordins and from c 13 AD by Tatars.
" 
Meshchera is a bit of eastwards from Moscow.
Moscow territory was territory of other Finno-Ugrian tribe: Merja.
Merja assimilated with Slavs long ago and Merja language was lost.
Most likely "moskva" is from Merja or Meshchera language. 
Explanation of the word “Moskva” from Finno-Ugrian languages has more then century old tradition.
The clearest part of the word is “va” meaning “water”, “river”. In Komi-Zyryan and Komi-Permyak languages till now word “water” has this form “va”. It is easy to recognize the same root in other Finno-Ugrian languages: Mordvin – “vad,ved’ “, Mari – “vud”, Udmurt – “vu”. (This root is common Indo-European by birth.
But the main part (“mosk”) which is the most essntial for the name causes variety interpretations. In the written down in the end of the XIX century Mari legend the name “moskva” was concluded from two Mari words: “maska” – “bear” and “ava” – “mother” and was explained that there were many bears in the place in the old time.
Its weakness side contains Mari linguists long ago proved that Mari word “maska” was borrowed in XVI century Russian word “mechka” – “bear” (Fem).
Also Finnish word “musta” (“black”, “dirty” was attracted to make explanation. In this way it would be “black dirty water”. This explanation was rejected because of hypothesis did not take into account that first and second parts of the word were taken from practically different languages: Finnish which is belong to Baltic-Finnic group and Komi which is belong to Permian languages. http://www.helsinki.fi/hum/sugl/kulonen/Finf13uk.htm 
Eventually there is one more Komi-Zyryan word that is more close then others to the mysterious root “mosk”. The word “mosk” means “a cow”. Thus it presents one more translation variant is “cow’s river”.
An adherent of the explanation was famous historian Klyuchevskiy.
This variant is supported by the most weight arguments then all others because of archaeological facts confirm this linguistic hypothesis.

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## Анатолий

Haven't read the whole thread but I think, the trend is to spell and pronounce the words as in the original language, not just in English. If the originial speling can't be used (different writing system), then the transliteration is used. 
Peking is no longer Beijing. 
In airports they write: Moskva, Roma, Lisboa, Warszawa, Praha, Bucuresti and Beograd as in original languages, not Moscow, Rome, Lisbon, Warsaw, Prague, Bucharest and Belgrade. 
It also the matter of how Russians present Moscow to foreigners. There is a big sign MOSKVA in some Moscow airports but apart from that nobody knows that Moscow is called "Moskva" in Russian. Chinese always called their capital Beijing and trained foreigners to pronounce it properly and nobody thinks it's awkward ot unusual any more. 
I am not from Moskva but I'd like to promote Moskva as the name of the Russian capital and Sankt-Peterburg, not St Petersburg as the name of the famous city on the Neva.

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## Doldonius

> It's not that English-speakers can't say the -kv- sound, just that it's very unusual, so at some point in history, the pronunciation of Maskva was changed in our language to suit our ways of pronunciation.

 Also, it's been changing in Russian over time as well, so "Moscow" may well be a very close transcription of some earlier pronunciation. An 'o' surely was there at some point: моск*о*вский, Моск*о*вия. Consider also a similar pair "церква"/"церковь".

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