# Forum About Russia Politics  Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

## Hanna

Apparently Crimea's parliament voted to join the Russian Federation, and this will be ratified/ voted on in a local referendum in Crimea on 16 March.  
I guess we can assume that the population will stand behind this suggestion (correct me if this is wrong!)  
The question is: What on earth will Russia do about this?!  *
What are the possible scenarios for this?*    For South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Pridnestrovie Russia has NOT annexed them, even if they probably wouldn't have minded (not sure what the situation is...)So what would be different about this, if anything?The propaganda war against Russia is overwhelming at the moment. Will this affect Russia's response?Could Russia just reject their request to join the federation?How much would it upset the new Ukrainian government, regular people in Ukraine and the West?Could this lead to war?  
What does Russian media think and  
What do people here think?

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## it-ogo

Russia will ensure the necessary result of the referendum and than Crimean status will be pending for the observable future. That would allow to ignore the necessity of thorough simulation of many aspects of social functioning in Crimea. Putin believes that Russia does not need more of Russia, but Russian militaries need one more offshore colony with no control from any legislation, strong society or even civil buerocracy. So Russian military and government elite will do there what can make problems to do in Moscow while local population will be given some financial support for good behavior and allowed to go on with their private lives.

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## Crocodile

I think everybody is shocked, more or less. It seems that Russia wants to have more pieces on the table to get out stronger from the subsequent negotiations. We don't know much at this point, but maybe to put more pressure on the EU/US with an option of separating the East Region. As you know, there could be no open discussion about that option in Ukraine as an open attept for that kind of free speech is illegal in the free and fully democratic Ukraine. The Security officers put in custody those who dare to openly speak about that. For example: Задержан лидер пророссийских активистов Донецка Губарев - BBC Russian - Лента новостей

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## it-ogo

> Задержан лидер пророссийских активистов Донецка Губарев - BBC Russian - Лента новостей

 Oh, that is the guy, who headed assault on the Donetsk Regional Administration, beaten and thrown out clerks and was sitting few days in that building saying that he is the authority. detail_a36b79828be952ccd627fe91d16381d9.jpg Lenta.ru: Бывший ССС 
His real problem is that he went against Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine and REAL Donetsk power.

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## diogen_

> For South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Pridnestrovie Russia has NOT annexed them, even if they probably wouldn't have minded (not sure what the situation is...)
> So what would be different about this, if anything?

 Sure enough, Crimea will become a part the Russian Federation.   

> The propaganda war against Russia is overwhelming at the moment. Will this affect Russia's response?

 Certainly, the  wording “in response” will be rather strong but not that aggressive as you can imagine.   

> Could Russia just reject their request to join the federation?

 Are you kidding?   

> How much would it upset the new Ukrainian government, regular people in Ukraine and the West?

 They will have to put up with the fait accompli in the long run. Khrushchev giveth, Putin taketh away.   

> Could this lead to war?

 Only in case the USA should make such a  snap decision as to send its troops to Ucraine ::

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## Crocodile

> His real problem is that he went against Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine and REAL Donetsk power.

 Let's do an experiment, shall we? If you insist the the Security does not care about those who calls on the locals to set a referendum, could you make a huge sign on your door and balcony asking for the local referendum? Referendum can't be that bad, right? You're not a threat to any "аллигарх", so that should be ok.  ::  
Usually, when a person is a threat to anybody in power, they 'make him a criminal', by slipping in drugs or something like that, then arresting him and beating the proof out of him during the investigation.  
If you go on insisting the security does not care about expressing their opinion in public, I can provide more: [url=http://dumskaya.net/news/sbu-predupredila-prorossijskih-aktivistov-odessy-033327/]СБУ

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## Hanna

> Sure enough, Crimea will become a part the Russian Federation.   
> Certainly, the  wording “in response” will be rather strong but not that aggressive as you can imagine.   
> Are you kidding?   
> They will have to put up with the fait accompli in the long run. Khrushchev giveth, Putin taketh away.   
> Only in case the USA should make such a  snap decision as to send its troops to Ucraine

 
Super helpful responses, thanks for sharing your thoughts. 
Apparently the USA has sent a war ship to the Black Sea. I expect they don't come there very often... or?     
As far as I know, such ships are usually only deployed to make a statement. 
However they HAVE been used for real, for example in the Gulf Wars.  
I can see a scenario where the USA claims they want to "deploy peacekeepers" in Crimea, or something like that to. Although I doubt they would get anywhere near the shores of Crimea if the Russian navy base has anything to say about it....  
In the Cold War there was usually stalemate most of the time. But right now, anything can happen. And Crimea is definitely a Queen on the chessboard. Or at least a tower.  *
I am so upset on behalf of the Ukrainians. All of this must be intolerable.* 
They have good reasons and every right to be suspicious of Russia. On the other hand, their entire capital is smashed up. *Somebody* orderered the shooting of civilians with sniper rifles. Some yobs are in power who might very well be extreme nationalists, possibly Nazis, and the whole country is about to get into the clutches of the IMF, Washington and Brussels. The poor will get poorer and everything more expensive while everyone helps themselves to anything that's worth any money internationally.    
Hard to blame those who resign and think _"sod all this, I can't take any more, my grandmother was Russian so just give me a f-ing Russian passport"_.   

> His real problem is that he went against Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine and REAL Donetsk power.

 Never heard  of him but I'll take a wild guess that he is a crook and very corrupt. What's going on with the Imperial uniform? Akhmetov, some kind of Muslim or something? Is he Russian or what? 
I'll read the article, but it will take me a while...  ::   

> Khrushchev giveth, Putin taketh away.

 Yes indeed - seems to have been quite a trend with Soviet l eaders, to give Russian land to other Soviet republics!!! 
I never knew that this had happened at all, anywhere until recently. I always assumed the Soviet republics were based on actual ethnic groups or traditional borders.

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## Hanna

One comment on that referendum:  
Options seem to be: 
Join Russian Federation
Stay in Ukraine 
Wouldn't it be good to have an option for "Independence", or "Wait and decide later" or something?  
Or do you think it's better to just be done with it and get a clear yes or no.

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## Paul G.

> Stay in Ukraine 
> Wouldn't it be good to have an option for "Independence", or "Wait and decide later" or something?

 That's wrong information.
The second question is "Crimea gets back to the Constitution of 1992". In fact, it's kinda independence. Ukrainian Nazis (under second president of Ukraine, mr. Kuchma) trampled Crimea's law and the Constitution of 1992 was abrogated. Also, Ukrainian Government ignored results of the referendum of 1991, when the people of Crimea voted for federal status of Crimea.
So, current situation around Crimea (from the direction of Ukraine) is illegal and all this shit is just a result of ignoring the people's wills. The people of Crimea wants to be associated with Russia (no matter in what form).

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## DDT

Crimea will stay with Russia I predict.  Ukrainian Warship Defects To Russia - Business Insider

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## Crocodile

> Crimea will stay with Russia I predict.

 It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic. The possible annexation of Crimea by Russia could just as well serve the 'goat' in the subsequent negotiations between Russia, EU and the US. In a way similar to: "Oh, you don't like to extend the autonomy of Crimea calling it the annexation? Ok, let's take a course to the annexation so that you will be happy when we step back to the Crimea becoming independent." 
The term 'goat' comes from an old Jewish-Hassidic joke which describes a poor man coming to a Rebe and asking for an advice: 
- Rebe, I am so poor and I have many children and live in a small place, there is no space for everybody, so what should I do?
- Do you have a goat?
- Yes, Rebe.
- Ok, take the goat into your house and make it live with you in the house. Come back to me after a week. 
After a week the poor guy comes back to Rebe who asks: 
- So, how do you do?
- Oh, Rebe, now it is truly terrible with the goat at home, there's no space at all.
- Ok, now take the goat back to the yard and come back to me after a week. 
After a week a happy poor guy comes to Rebe and thanks him for his advice: 
- Thank you very much, Rebe! Now, my house became much more spacious!

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## Hanna

Well who can blame the Crimeans for wanting to avoid crazy nationalists from Kiev, speak their own language and least but not last, some Russian oil money raining over them from Moscow....  
Seems Russia has picked up on the fact that it probably doesn't matter if everyone and their dog in Crimea votes "Yes" , the referendum will be called illegal whatever happens.  
And that means Crimea is stuck in limbo, or Russia will have to become the number 1 American (and European too) hate object, beating Iran and North Korea, even....

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## diogen_

> Akhmetov, some kind of Muslim or something? Is he Russian or what?

 His nationality is “unspecified”. My best guess he is ½ Jew, ¼ Tatar, ¼ Russian or something even more convoluted. 
_http://finance.bigmir.net/budget/32752-Tatarin-Ahmetov-popal-v-TOP-samyh-bogatyh-evreev

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## Throbert McGee

> It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic.

 But... an independent Crimea could vote to join NATO and lease Black Sea bases to the US Navy, right? I'm not sure whether it's likely that Crimeans would actually vote that way, but in principle they could -- so would Russia take that risk? Or are you saying that Russia would recognize Crimea's independence only on the condition that Crimea agreed *не спать с ВМСами США*?

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## Crocodile

> but in principle they could

 Based on what I know, presently the vast majority of Crimeans would prefer Russian military to any other military. There's been long history of the military presense of Russians in Crimea. After a few generations, the Crimean Tatars would probaly make the majority of Crimeans, and the Crimean Tatars strongly associate themselves with Turkey. So, if in the future Turkey would still be a NATO member (and there still will be NATO), then yes.  ::

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## DrBaldhead

The main reason Crimea would want to join Russian Federation is fear. The fear that one day their capital would be visited by yet another "friendship train" now armed with the weaponry taken from seized arsenals of Ukrainian police forces and stomp their hopes for autonomy privileges to the ground. 
I understand their disbelief towards Kiev. The brigands who recently have risen to power via violence and deception now try to teach them about what is legitimate and what isn't. It's actually even hard to take seriously.

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## UhOhXplode

First, I consider the interim government in Kiev as illegitimate since the Russian speaking Ukrainians were not included. Also, Crimea has the right to self-determination. I mean, Crimea was part of Russia since the time of Catherine the Great and when Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 it wall all part of the USSR. Anyway, I think Crimea would have a better future with Russia and joining the Russian Federation would protect them from NATO and the US. And yeah, President Putin and the Russian parliament would be very happy to accept Crimea as part of Russia.
Btw, I stopped reading western media when the crisis got ugly. It's full of anti-Russian propaganda. Does anyone know what's up with Rossiyskaya Gazeta? When I click the link all I get is something about the site being hacked into. I hope they get back online soon.

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## Amy6710

> Btw, I stopped reading western media when the crisis got ugly. *It's full of anti-Russian propaganda.*

 No kidding... driving me nuts!

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## Hanna

> No kidding... driving me nuts!

 I can't get over this madness whereby if you want a half way realistic news program about current events / international politics, you have to turn to RUSSIAN media. I know they don't openly criticise Putin at RT or Rossiya 24, but you can turn with confidence to any other international publication for that, so it's not a problem as far as I am concernèd. Or at least, there is a workaround..... Who, alive in 1985 would ever have seen this coming? 
RT is better and more innovative and independent journalism than you can get in any British, European or American news channel these days. "Breaking the set" never even mentions Russia, but it would NEVER make it on any other channel.   
I don't necessarily WANT to watch RT or Russia 24 and I am definitely no massive fan of Putin, but I can't bear being lied to by corporate media, or even worse, by the BBC or other European state TV, using our actual licence money to manipulate us. As long as RT remains the most truthful international news channel, I will watch it. 
Until some native Western European media starts doing balanced reporting, and stops serving US and local corporate interests I guess I am stuck with Russian news channels. And media is getting worse, not better so it will be a while...

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## diogen_

> Does anyone know what's up with Rossiyskaya Gazeta? When I click the link all I get is something about the site being hacked into. I hope they get back online soon.

 There were reports about massive DoS attacks at Russian news sites. 
I bet some ignominiously disgraceful Ukrainian hackers are those responsible for these outrageous instances of misdemeanor. The worst is over however, and, hopefully, right now you can get uninhibited access to the site with the link: http://www.rg.ru

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## diogen_

> It might be, but I think there's still slim chances that won't happen and Crimea will become an independent republic.

  

> Russian Finance Minister Anton Siluanov said Monday that the regional budget of the Crimean government was running a 35 billion ruble ($1 billion) deficit and that Russia would develop a plan of financial aid for the region by the evening.

 Russia Revitalizes Project to Build Bridge to Crimea | World | RIA Novosti 
Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

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## UhOhXplode

> I can't get over this madness whereby if you want a half way realistic news program about current events / international politics, you have to turn to RUSSIAN media. I know they don't openly criticise Putin at RT or Rossiya 24, but you can turn with confidence to any other international publication for that, so it's not a problem as far as I am concernèd. Or at least, there is a workaround..... Who, alive in 1985 would ever have seen this coming?
> RT is better and more innovative and independent journalism than you can get in any British, European or American news channel these days. "Breaking the set" never even mentions Russia, but it would NEVER make it on any other channel.  
> I don't necessarily WANT to watch RT or Russia 24 and I am definitely no massive fan of Putin, but I can't bear being lied to by corporate media, or even worse, by the BBC or other European state TV, using our actual licence money to manipulate us. As long as RT remains the most truthful international news channel, I will watch it.
> Until some native Western European media starts doing balanced reporting, and stops serving US and local corporate interests I guess I am stuck with Russian news channels. And media is getting worse, not better so it will be a while...

 RT, Российская газета, and Pravda always have more logical news feeds but I still like to read all sides of any issue. My Russian isn't good enough yet to listen to Russia 24 - even if I do recognize some of the spoken words and phrases - but I will include that too when my Russian improves. 
For news on Ukraine, I've been using RT, Российская газета, Pravda, Christian Science Monitor, Washington post, New York Times, and Reuters mostly. Then I decide what makes sense and what doesn't. But it's very difficult to find any useful news or logic in the US news sources right now. Also, I get a lot of misinformation and bad feedback from my US friends but that's cool. I know what I know and that can't change. It would not hurt the US if Ukrainian opposition did or didn't win so I don't consider it that important here. Imo, it's only important to Russia and Ukraine. But I do respect the strong Russian-Ukrainian ties and Crimea's right to self-determination. I don't get how anyone can be American and not believe in self-determination.
Btw, I'm not a massive fan of Putin either. But if I was a Russian, I know I would vote for him. He's amazing!   

> There were reports about massive DoS attacks at Russian news sites.
> I bet some ignominiously disgraceful Ukrainian hackers are those responsible for these outrageous instances of misdemeanor. The worst is over however, and, hopefully, right now you can get uninhibited access to the site with the link: http://www.rg.ru

 Thanks!  ::  It's finally back online, yay!   

> Russia Revitalizes Project to Build Bridge to Crimea | World | RIA Novosti
> Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

 Thanks for the heads up on the new bridge!  ::  I'll be watching for more news about that.

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## DrBaldhead

I declare the oncoming referendum in Crimea illegitimate, because it defies the international law! If separating a region via a referendum defies the international law, we're reclaiming the former USSR borders.

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## 14Russian

Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics....  hide, hide.... 
1) Seriously, who is responsible for the referendum wording and questions?   Who decides how it's worded and what the questions are? 
2) it was carefully crafted to make sure that there was no 'status quo' option.   Yes, probably only the Tatars want that or the few Ukrainianian nationalists who are brainwashed, themselves (the opposite of the brainwash machine by the Kremlin) to reach out to the US and UN minions but still.... fair is fair. 
Well, you lose again with the truth and most logical points presented... За твоё здоровье!

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## DrBaldhead

> Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics....  hide, hide....

 You didn't get the joke, did you?  ::

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## edvalais

Some of the references to "Ukrainian Nazis" in this thread are unfortunate, given the clear similarity between Russia's attempt to annex Crimea and Hitler's Anschluss with Austria. Professor Zubov described this recently in Vedomosti: 
«Нам надо опомниться и остановиться. Наши политики втягивают наш народ в страшную, в ужасающую авантюру. Исторический опыт говорит, что ничего не обойдется так. Мы не должны вестись, как повелись в свое время немцы на посулы Геббельса и Гитлера. Ради мира в нашей стране, ради ее действительного возрождения, ради мира и настоящей дружественности на пространствах России исторической, разделенной ныне на многие государства, скажем «нет» этой безумной и, главное, совершенно ненужной агрессии» 
Then, in a rather unpleasant confirmation of the threat he was describing, Zubov was sacked for expressing his opinion. This is just the latest in a series of incidents hacking away at free speech in Russia - think of the fate of Dozhd, think of the ludicrous internet ban for Navalny. How long will it be until Russia holds her own answer to Kristallnacht? 
Russians - you are better than this. You deserve better.

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## SergeMak

> Then, in a rather unpleasant confirmation of the threat he was describing, Zubov was sacked for expressing his opinion. This is just the latest in a series of incidents hacking away at free speech in Russia - think of the fate of Dozhd, think of the ludicrous internet ban for Navalny. How long will it be until Russia holds her own answer to Kristallnacht? 
> Russians - you are better than this. You deserve better.

 Do you know why Kharkov's ex-governor Dobkin is put under home arrest? Why Kharkov's mayor Kernes is put under home arrest?

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## edvalais

I didn't know about this, SergeMak, but I've looked it up online. The only sensible reply that I can give is that I object to people being wrongly arrested. If this has happened in this case, then I deplore it. I believe in the rule of law and human rights - ask yourself whether these exist in Russia (or Ukraine). 
The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that some Russians invoke the "fascist" threat in Ukraine, while backing action which , in my opinion, is reminiscent of fascist Germany.  
Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany.  смутные времена!!!

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## SergeMak

> I didn't know about this, SergeMak, but I've looked it up online. The only sensible reply that I can give is that I object to people being wrongly arrested. If this has happened in this case, then I deplore it. I believe in the rule of law and human rights - ask yourself whether these exist in Russia (or Ukraine). 
> The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that some Russians invoke the "fascist" threat in Ukraine, while backing action which , in my opinion, is reminiscent of fascist Germany.  
> Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany.  смутные времена!!!

 They were arrested for their speeches about possibility of federalization of Ukraine which maybe the only way to prevent a break up of the country. Dobkin was going to take part in presidential elections and his arrest is a means of eliminating a candidate who has a strong backing from people from the Eastern part of the country. So as you can see the methods of the new Kiev's power are quite undemocratic not to mention about their alliance with odious "Right sector" and their indulgence to brigandish actions of some armed groups from the Maidan.
And you are wrong that no Russian criticizes Russia on this forum. I don't do this in this branch of the forum, because this branch is devoted to the situation in Ukraine. You can read a lot of critics towards Russia in another branch of the forum, devoted to discussing democracy in Russia.     
There is another consideration about self-critics. The events in Ukraine showed to Russian people what horrible things unbridled protests can lead to. Suddenly many people realized that it's better to have stability under authoritarian power than chaos of anarchy. So the Ukrainian Maidan actually delivered a very destructive blow on the movement of protest against authoritarism in Russia.  *Actually professor Zubov was not sacked.* Here is the proof http://grani.ru/Politics/Russia/m.226186.html

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## Hanna

> Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany.  смутные времена!!!

 Ed, I think you are sitting on some rather high horses here....!  
Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves? 
What "dark forces" are you referring to, exactly? That's like saying Homeland Security came will come and get UhOhXplode and Deborski because they sometimes diss the USA. About as likely I would say. Or less, actually.  
I don't think you used this site very long. Many Russians here are extremely critical of many things. Some people here are completely anti-establishment, in Russia and in general. Another thing is, there is a time and place to dish out the worst dirt on your country, and maybe it's in a forum for language learners. Have you checked Livejournal, the Russian sector?  
Another thing to consider is that Putin actually has the majority's support, more or less, in Russia. So statistically most Russians here ought to more or less tolerate him. It's also the issue how you represent your country to strangers. Maybe you don't start with serving up all the dirt to begin with. The site is for people who want to learn about Russia. 
Most of us already know the negatives, from media.

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## edvalais

Serge, thanks for your reply. I'm British, so I know from the Northern Ireland troubles how destructive sectarian conflict can be. I'm old enough (4 ::  to remember hearing IRA bombs explode in London. Is the Ukraine a very complicated problem? - you bet! But I don't think that the referendum this weekend is going to help. I can also add that Putin's record on "fair and honest" elections isn't very impressive. Re Zubov's sacking/firing, here is what he told Slon: 
– Как вам сообщили об увольнении? 
– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу. 
– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»? 
– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно. 
Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.  
As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

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## Hanna

> Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.  
> As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

 Well, Russia has a different experience and view on some of the phenomenons you discuss. 
I don't support the idea that anything Western is necessarily better. Better in the West, maybe. But better for Russia? That's for the Russians to decide. I don't care and it's not my business.  
Plus governing Russia is completely different challenge than even the UK. Can't apply the same logic - besides, how democratic is the UK really, if you sincerely think about it. Two near identical parties, and plenty of stuff going on that everyone knows the majority wouldn't agree with, if they had any real influence.  
I agree with your view of Russian apathy about corruption. But it's easy for me to judge it, or get worked up, coming from one of the least corrupt countries in the world. I try not to, even if it disgusts me.  
Not super interested in Olympics so I didn't read the thread, but it more or less worked pretty well and no terrorist attack, so I guess it's a success.

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## UhOhXplode

> Oh no, Baldy is using Obama pics....  hide, hide....
> 1) Seriously, who is responsible for the referendum wording and questions?   Who decides how it's worded and what the questions are?
> 2) it was carefully crafted to make sure that there was no 'status quo' option.   Yes, probably only the Tatars want that or the few Ukrainianian nationalists who are brainwashed, themselves (the opposite of the brainwash machine by the Kremlin) to reach out to the US and UN minions but still.... fair is fair.
> Well, you lose again with the truth and most logical points presented... За твоё здоровье!

 I don't know which was finnier. The picture or your reaction, LMAO!    

> Ask yourself another question: why does no Russian on this site openly, directly criticise Russia? To what extent does auto-censorship play a role here? The same dark forces which inhibit open debate here were, again in my opinion, at play in 1930s Germany.  смутные времена!!!

 Tbh, I've never seen anything deleted (censored) here that wasn't irrationally hostile or disrespectful. Btw, I read an article yesterday in Nezavisimaya Gazeta that wasn't very flattering to President Putin or the State Duma. The author was speaking out for equality and human rights in Russia. No, I honestly don't see the Russian people as being brainwashed and I don't believe they're any more apathetic than Americans. There are people in both countries that get disgusted with government or just don't care. 
But sometimes people are so concerned with the differences between 2 countries that they can't see the similarities. Russia and the US are strong allies with strong economic ties. And no, I wouldn't feel any more threatened or restricted living in Russia than I do living in the US. Have you seen the list of the 50 most dangerous cities in the world in 2013? There are 4 US cities in that list but no Russian cities are listed. From Business Insider: Most Dangerous Cities In The World - Business Insider 
And don't forget, allies are friends and friendship is based on mutual respect and understanding. My 2 favorite countries on the European continent are Russia and France and I wouldn't want to change either one.   

> What "dark forces" are you referring to, exactly? That's like saying Homeland Security came will come and get UhOhXplode and Deborski because they sometimes diss the USA. About as likely I would say. Or less, actually. 
> Another thing to consider is that Putin actually has the majority's support, more or less, in Russia. So statistically most Russians here ought to more or less tolerate him.

 LOL! It's always a possibility that anyone that speaks out too much could be picked up by Homeland Security. I mean, they already know how often we brush our teeth and they can detain US citizens indefinitely without a trial. So yeah, I really don't believe it could be any worse in Russia. Anyway, I think it's very interesting that our country hates what it calls "dictators" and also hates people that speak out against things the government does - I think that's called a double standard, LOL! 
@ the OP:
Russia has a lot invested in Crimea which, imo, gives them the right to get involved in the Ukrainian crisis. The US/EU won't lose anything if Crimea does join the Russian Federation... except maybe the possibility of building new NATO bases. Tbh, I don't really see Russia as any threat to the west so I think the NATO buildup needs to stop. The western powers already said they don't have "the appetite" for a military confrontation with Moscow.   

> But despite NATO reconnaissance aircraft patrolling the Polish and Romanian borders and U.S. naval forces preparing for exercises in the Black Sea, Western powers have made clear that, as when ex-Soviet Georgia lost territory in fighting in 2008, they have no appetite for risking turning the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War into a military conflict with Moscow.

 Ukraine forms new defense force, seeks Western help - chicagotribune.com 
So why extend hostilities over something that's inevitable. Tbh, I don't think they will... at least, not for very long. The countries are already too dependent on each other economically to risk any serious sanctions. It's like dominoes - if one country falls so will the others. How many Senators wanna lose their new homes or yachts over something they can't change? Obviously not very many since the visa-bans had to be imposed by Executive Order. Obama wouldn't have done that if Congress was backing him up.
Anyway, here's the latest news I've seen on the Crimean situation: West prepares sanctions as Russia presses on with Ukraine takeover - chicagotribune.com http://www.rg.ru/2014/03/14/lavrov-site.html 
It's Saturday and 04:38 in Moscow right now. The Referendum is only a day away. 
EDIT:
Some more interesting news. Russia downed a US surveillance drone over Crimea: http://news.yahoo.com/russia-says-in...180430584.html

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## Basil77

> Professor Zubov.

 After listening his almost a hour long speech on "Эхо Москвы" I desided for myself that he is Novodvorskaya level "liberast" and not worth listening to. Gosh, he claimed that Bandera and Ukrainian Guerilla Army (ОУН-УПА) was good guys, just patriotic. He directly said that all atrocities and murders of УПА was НКВД provocations. Even Poles who have zero reasons to like  or white-wash НКВД never say such bullsh1t.

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## it-ogo

> After listening his almost a hour long speech on "Эхо Москвы" I desided for myself that he is Novodvorskaya level "liberast" and not worth listening to. Gosh, he claimed that Bandera and Ukrainian Guerilla Army (ОУН-УПА) was good guys, just patriotic. He directly said that all atrocities and murders of УПА was НКВД provocations. Even Poles who have zero reasons to like  or white-wash НКВД never say such bullsh1t.

 Мне бабка рассказывала - дед был военнослужащим, их часть стояла в конце 40-х где-то под Самбором, кажется, а она - учительница младших классов - там в школе и для местных и для детей офицеров. Так вот однажды в деревянный столб возле школы, по которому любили съезжать дети, обхватив руками, повтыкали какие-то лезвия и несколько детей располосовало руки до кости. А на следующее утро появился батальон НКВД, всех собрали, и агитаторы разъяснили, что это вредительствуют бандеровцы. Потом пошли по хатам, и кого-то повязали и увезли. С тех пор она и боялась бандеровцев. Нелюди же - в собственном селе, собственных детей не пожалели!

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## Basil77

> Мне бабка рассказывала - дед был военнослужащим, их часть стояла в конце 40-х где-то под Самбором, кажется, а она - учительница младших классов - там в школе и для местных и для детей офицеров. Так вот однажды в деревянный столб возле школы, по которому любили съезжать дети, обхватив руками, повтыкали какие-то лезвия и несколько детей располосовало руки до кости. А на следующее утро появился батальон НКВД, всех собрали, и агитаторы разъяснили, что это вредительствуют бандеровцы. Потом пошли по хатам, и кого-то повязали и увезли. С тех пор она и боялась бандеровцев. Нелюди же - в собственном селе, собственных детей не пожалели!

 Я тоже слышал много всяких историй, например как бандеровцы в 52м захватили школу во Львове, связали учителей и стали с живых срезать куски мяса и заставлять детей есть. То, что происходило на подконтрольной Союзу территории можно при желании всё списать на провокации НКВД. Но как объяснить резню на Волыни  и в  Галиции в 43-44гг.? Какой там мог быть к чёрту НКВД? Вы там от своего УкрТВ что совсем с "з глузду з'їхали", как говорит бабушка моей жены? 
З.Ы. Ладно, хватит про ужасы. Вот лучше весёлая картинка в тему:

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## SergeMak

> Serge, thanks for your reply. I'm British, so I know from the Northern Ireland troubles how destructive sectarian conflict can be. I'm old enough (4 to remember hearing IRA bombs explode in London. Is the Ukraine a very complicated problem? - you bet! But I don't think that the referendum this weekend is going to help. I can also add that Putin's record on "fair and honest" elections isn't very impressive. Re Zubov's sacking/firing, here is what he told Slon: 
> – Как вам сообщили об увольнении? 
> – Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу. 
> – И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»? 
> – Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно. 
> Hanna - you ask: "Are you saying they are some kind of brainwashed people who can't or won't think for themselves?" Have a look at the thread on the Sochi Olympics where one Russian here says - and he insists he's serious - that he would like all information in the media to be controlled by the people in power. So yes, I would say some Russians ARE brainwashed - or, worse, would want to be. Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes. The word I would use to describe Russians' reaction to the clear-cut corruption in their country is "apathy". They don't care - as long as it doesn't affect them personally. My point is that it will eventually affect them. If the turmoil in Ukraine shows anything, it is that politics and the kind of politicians who run a country can make a direct difference to individuals and families.  
> As for your point that this is a "forum for language learners", well, this is a thread in a section about "politics", therefore I decided to contribute to it. There appears to be no purely linguistic element in it. If, for some incredible reason, my Russian friends take issue with what I've written, they are of course free to say so, unless the Duma has passed another law to inhibit free speech - so there! (I love you really.)

 I'm also not too young, 45 soon and I served in Afghanistan so I can remember hearing explosions of jet-proppelled missiles and I still remember the sign "Made in USA" written on a stabilizer of one of them that luckily hadn't exploded. So tell your stories to someone else. Russian people know much better than you from the experience of two Chechen wars how destructive separatism can be.
As for Crimean affairs I don't see any ground for destructive protests of local people against joining RF. There is no language, religion or historical ground for it.
I say more. If the US had not poked their nose into inner Ukrainia bussiness if they hadn't finance Maidan, if they hadn't press toward inclusion Ukraine in NATO, there would be no separatism in Crimea at all. 
Now, about Zubkov. I don't know the level of your Russian, but I can see it is not high enough to understand that there is no actual confirmation of his being sacked in your excerpt.
So let me translate it to you: 
– Как вам сообщили об увольнении?  
(-What way were you informed about your sacking?) 
– Самым обычным образом. Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. И на завтра я вызван к проректору, видимо, по этому вопросу. 
(-A very usual way. I was said to write an application to leave the service on my own will, or to wait till they will sack me according to an article in the law. I answered that I would write nothing myself, let them sack me the way they wish. And I am called to the prorector on tomorrow, apparently to discuss this matter.) 
– И вам пояснили, что увольнение связано с вашей заметкой в «Ведомостях»?
(- Did they explain to you, that your sacking is connected with your article in "Vedomosti"?) 
– Это мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно.
(- They said me starightforward that everything's about this article. But they didn't tell me any detail. Well, everybody understood everything). 
So, as you see, the man, according to his own words was put under pressure, but for the moment when this interview was taken, his was not sacked yet. And he wasn't sacked later. Actually he wasn't sacked at all, wich was writen in my prooflink. Moreover, we know that the professor was put under pressure only from his own words. So, it's for you to decide whom to belive. I belive to the facts, and the facts say that he was not sacked. 
I'm sorry to say it to you, but the rest of your post shows that it's you who is brainwashed.

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## it-ogo

> Я тоже слышал много всяких историй, например как бандеровцы в 52м захватили школу во Львове, связали учителей и стали с живых срезать куски мяса и заставлять детей есть. То, что происходило на подконтрольной Союзу территории можно при желании всё списать на провокации НКВД. Но как объяснить резню на Волыни  и в  Галиции в 43-44гг.? Какой там мог быть к чёрту НКВД? Вы там от своего УкрТВ что совсем с "з глузду з'їхали", как говорит бабушка моей жены?

 Ну я-то ТВ вообще никакое не смотрю - лет двадцать как. Разница между твоей и моей историей - что я свою получил из первых рук, и готовые выводы меня не устроили. И дети порезанные были вполне реальными - уж извини, но бабке своей я верю. Интересна твоя реакция - я тебе рассказываю историю без комментариев, а ты мне - "а у вас там негров линчуют". Я вроде как за резню на Волыни ничего и не говорил. Или ты меня с Новодворской перепутал? Собирательный образ врага? 
Что я думаю, так это когда провокация становится технологией, поставленной на поток мощным централизованным государством с диктатором во главе и молчаливой поддержкой общества, таковое государство уделывает на раз-два любых любителей - и по количеству и качеству акций, и по уровню цинизма. Собственно, именно поэтому разобщенные украинские группы интересов никак не противники российской машине правды.  
А что нужно Западу - мы уже увидели. Ему нафиг мы не нужны, и он изо всех сил пытается спасти лицо, почему Путина на место не поставил. И вот уже западные СМИ повторяют путинский бред об ущемлении интересов "этнических русских" и русскоязычных и типа фашистах в Киеве. Еще плюс один в пользу Пу.  
Ну, что же, если Пу реально поплыл, теперь он аннексирует Крым, будет копить армию на дальнейшие завоевания и кончится все как с Гитлером. Если же еще относительно в себе - сделает из Крыма оффшор для финансовых махинаций, кормления генералов и неподотчетных вообще никому и ничему мероприятий, и будет продолжать тратить огромные ресурсы чтобы гадить нам в суп, чтобы не дай бог Украина не зажила по-нормальному, тогда его Русская Национальная Идея пойдет прахом невзирая ни на какие машины правды.

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## edvalais

Thanks for the translation, Serge. Perhaps you could translate this for me: 
"Профессора кафедры философии МГИМО Андрея Зубова уволили из высшего учебного заведения спустя несколько дней после того, как в одном из федеральных СМИ им была опубликована статья, в резкой форме критикующая возможность ввода российских войск в Крым." 
For many other similar reports, simply enter "зубов увольнение" in google or yandex.  However, if you still sincerely believe that the professor hasn't been sacked, perhaps you should contact him and give him the good news. 
I think it's pretty unwise to refer to the Chechen wars when you insist that Russia's Anschluss of Crimea is a good thing. The wars weren't that pleasant, by all accounts. Of course Anna Politkovskaya could tell us about that, but she was murdered on Putin's birthday, as you no doubt know. 
Let me try to explain in another way why I have real worries about the way Russia is moving. Putin, in my opinion, is at the top of a very simple, very crude "vertical of power". OK, this is inevitable if he's President. But the checks and measures which operate in other countries - the constitution, the legislature, even the courts - in Russia are controlled by Putin. The whole edifice is corrupt. At the moment, according to other people on this thread, Russians support Putin, but at some stage this whole rotten structure will fall down. What will happen to Russia then? Ironically, the best description of this was by Putin himself in his Munich speech: 
"Однако что же такое однополярный мир? Как бы ни украшали этот термин, он в конечном итоге означает на практике только одно: это один центр власти, один центр силы, один центр принятия решения. 
Это мир одного хозяина, одного суверена. И это в конечном итоге губительно не только для всех, кто находится в рамках этой системы, но и для самого суверена, потому что разрушает его изнутри. 
И это ничего общего не имеет, конечно, с демократией. Потому что демократия – это, как известно, власть большинства при учете интересов и мнений меньшинства."

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## Basil77

> Ну я-то ТВ вообще никакое не смотрю - лет двадцать как. Разница между твоей и моей историей - что я свою получил из первых рук, и готовые выводы меня не устроили. И дети порезанные были вполне реальными - уж извини, но бабке своей я верю. Интересна твоя реакция - я тебе рассказываю историю без комментариев, а ты мне - "а у вас там негров линчуют". Я вроде как за резню на Волыни ничего и не говорил. Или ты меня с Новодворской перепутал? Собирательный образ врага?

 Я воспринял твою историю, как попытку усомниться в зверствах бандеровцев, ты уж извини. Я вот тоже расскажу историю, которую слышал из первых рук, от деда моей жены. В 43м ему было 10 лет и он был в немецкой оккупации. Когда немцы получили люлей под Курском и начали драпать, часть СС, которая базировалась в их селе, получила приказ уничтожить всех жителей и сжечь село перед отступлением. В селе также было много полицаев, дед их называет бандеровцами. Ну так вот, дед рассказывал, как мать их сгребла в охапку и спряталась в кустах на огороде, пока немцы жгли их дом. Потом одного немца отправили прочесать огород. Он заглянул в кусты, увидел насмерть перепуганную бабу с детьми, поводил дулом автомата, сделал вид, что их не заметил, развернулся и ушёл. Не захотел брать грех на душу. А на другом конце села зачистку проводили бандеровцы. Так вот, там не выжил никто.

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## UhOhXplode

> Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes.

 I know it's popular in the US to call the adoption ban a retaliation for the Magnitsky Act but I don't believe that. Russia's response was to ban certain Americans from entering Russia.
Did you read about the Russian baby that was abused by the American homosexual couple that adopted him? Google "Mark Newton" or "Peter Truong". Do 3 year olds really beat themselves to death? Google "Maxim Kuzmin". 
Or maybe the 7 year old that was beaten to death by his adoptive parents in Texas? Google "Ivan Skorobogatov". Or maybe the 6 year old that was beaten to death? His adoptive mother was only charged with involuntary manslaughter. Google "Alex Pavlis".
It's a huge list of dead and abused Russian orphans that led to that adoption ban. If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

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## edvalais

> I know it's popular in the US to call the adoption ban a retaliation for the Magnitsky Act but I don't believe that. Russia's response was to ban certain Americans from entering Russia.

 Well, with respect, I believe the ban on adoption was a direct response to the Magnitsky Act. If Magnitsky had never happened, Americans would still be able to adopt. As for the ban on some Americans entering Russia, how many of these Americans hid the proceeds of illegal activities in the US in Russia? I would say roughly zero. How many of the Russian Magnitsky fraudsters hid money in the US? All of them? Half of them?   

> If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

 You're kidding, right? If there is abuse anywhere the perpetrators need to be punished. I hope that anyone abusing Russian orphans is given an exemplary prison sentence. Nevertheless, if I were a Russian orphan I would pray that an American would adopt me, rather than staying in the orphanage.  В интернет попало шокирующее видео избиения сирот в российском интернате - Новости мира на 1+1 - ТСН.ua

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## Lampada

> ...It's a huge list of dead and abused Russian orphans that led to that adoption ban. If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

 Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list?  How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу. 
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

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## edvalais

> Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list?  How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу. 
> И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

 You express much more eloquently what I was trying to say! 
It may seem that I'm being "anti-Russian", but I'm in fact trying to be "pro-children". I would much rather that a British orphan was adopted by a properly-vetted Russian couple than remain in care in the UK. (There have been scandals in UK children's homes too.) 
I'm also not being "anti-Russian" when I criticise politics in your country - I'm "pro-democracy". I equally deplore what's happening in Guantanimo etc. Democracy should have no nationality.

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## UhOhXplode

> Well, with respect, I believe the ban on adoption was a direct response to the Magnitsky Act. If Magnitsky had never happened, Americans would still be able to adopt. As for the ban on some Americans entering Russia, how many of these Americans hid the proceeds of illegal activities in the US in Russia? I would say roughly zero. How many of the Russian Magnitsky fraudsters hid money in the US? All of them? Half of them?

 Everyone has an opinion but there's no proof that the adoption ban was a response to the Magnitsky Act. But there's proof that it could have been a response to the abuse and deaths. I could be wrong but my conclusion is based on what I know about it... and that's not very much.
I know almost nothing about the Magnitsky act or the people who were affected by it so I can't comment on that.   

> You're kidding, right?* If there is abuse anywhere the perpetrators need to be punished. I hope that anyone abusing Russian orphans is given an exemplary prison sentence.* Nevertheless, if I were a Russian orphan I would pray that an American would adopt me, rather than staying in the orphanage.  В интернет попало шокирующее видео избиения сирот в российском интернате - Новости мира на 1+1 - ТСН.ua

 It's good that the authorities are investigating the abuse in that orphanage. But it happens in other orphanages too.
Btw, I'm happy you feel as strongly about this issue as I do. I had a friend that was abused by his adoptive family. They moved so I don't know where he is now but I'm sure he's not happy. That shouldn't be happening to any kid anywhere. 
I've never been in an orphanage and I didn't watch the video in the link. But yeah, I have heard about them and I know I wouldn't want to be in one... or be adopted. It sounds kinda scary either way.   

> Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list?  How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу. 
> И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

 I got dragged into a thread about the adoptions by a friend at another site. I didn't read all the articles and I refuse to watch videos about that topic. If there are hundreds and thousands of good adoptions then that makes me happy. And I agree orphanages should be a safe place for kids with people that really care about them. I'm not a girl or a mom but I'm not a monster either. It disturbs me to hear about the bad things that happen. Kids should be protected and safe.

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## 14Russian

Очень хорошее видео!

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## SergeMak

> Thanks for the translation, Serge. Perhaps you could translate this for me: 
> "Профессора кафедры философии МГИМО Андрея Зубова уволили из высшего учебного заведения спустя несколько дней после того, как в одном из федеральных СМИ им была опубликована статья, в резкой форме критикующая возможность ввода российских войск в Крым." 
> For many other similar reports, simply enter "зубов увольнение" in google or yandex.  However, if you still sincerely believe that the professor hasn't been sacked, perhaps you should contact him and give him the good news.

 Why didn't you provide the link to your quotation? Maybe because of a fear that people with brains can read *the whole article* and then look at the source of the information and its date and make their own conclusion?
Well here are my reasons:
1. The URL of the article you've mentioned is here: Скандал! Профессор МГИМО Андрей Зубов уволен из вуза после публикации своей нашумевшей антивоенной статьи, в которой он резко осудил решение Владимира Путина о вводе российских войск в Крым - Газета "ВЕДОМОСТИ Урал" г. Екатеринбург
And here is the whole text:
***
Профессора кафедры философии МГИМО Андрея Зубова уволили из высшего учебного заведения спустя несколько дней после того, как в одном из федеральных СМИ им была опубликована статья, в резкой форме критикующая возможность ввода российских войск в Крым. Об увольнении сегодня, 4 марта, на своей странице в социальной сети Facebook сообщила дочь профессора Ирина Бобринская. 
«Через зав. кафедрой философии моему отцу, Андрею Зубову, передано, что ректор МГИМО* увольняет* его из института», - написала Ирина Бобринская. 
***(end of quote)
As you can see the first sentence of the article contradicts the very words of the professor's daughter. She said "увольняют" - it is the present tense which in Russian is always imperfect, so there is no evidence in her words that her father is already sacked. Go and study Russian! And don't tear words from their context. A part of the truth is not the truth, and what is not the truth is a lie. 
2. Let's now read some other sources on the subject, for example this one dated a day later - 5/03/2014:  http://newsland.com/news/detail/id/1333806/
Here is the text:
***
Ректор МГИМО Анатолий Торкунов *опроверг увольнение* профессора Андрея Зубова, опубликовавшего ранее статью с критикой позиции России в отношении Украины. Об этом сообщает «Интерфакс». 
По словам Торкунова, Зубов продолжает работать в вузе, и никаких уведомлений о его увольнении со стороны администрации не поступало. 
«Естественно, позицию, которую он высказывал, многие не разделяют, — и я как историк не разделяю ее тоже. Но все процедуры, связанные с приемом и увольнением на работу, осуществляются в соответствии с законом», — заявил Торкунов, добавив, что «удивлен поднятым вокруг этого шумом». 
4 марта об увольнении 62-летнего профессора кафедры философии Андрея Зубова из МГИМО сообщила дочь ученого Ирина Бобринская. По ее словам, Зубову об увольнении сообщил заведующий кафедрой философии. Сообщение подтвердил сам Зубов в интервью изданию Slon. "Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. <...> Мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно", — рассказал Зубов, отметив, что на следующий день он должен явиться к проректору.
***(end of quote)  *So the man isn't sacked, don't lie, or else people won't respect you.*   

> I think it's pretty unwise to refer to the Chechen wars when you insist that Russia's Anschluss of Crimea is a good thing. The wars weren't that pleasant, by all accounts. Of course Anna Politkovskaya could tell us about that, but she was murdered on Putin's birthday, as you no doubt know.

 First, I didn't say that "Anschluss of Crimea is a good thing". I consider it as the lesser evil. Second, there is nothing pleasant about any war, and there is no Russian who is dreaming about war with anybody. I don't know much about the murder of Politkovskaya, all I know is that political murders have happened in different countries including the most democratic ones. Let me remind you for example about Martin Luther King.
By the way I suddenly realized that I don't know the date of Putin's birthday. And it's quite strange, because I do remember the dates of Lenin's, Stalin's and Hitler's birthdays, but I've never ever heard about Putin's one. Maybe he is really a modest man? Can a modest man be a dictator?     

> Let me try to explain in another way why I have real worries about the way Russia is moving. Putin, in my opinion, is at the top of a very simple, very crude "vertical of power". OK, this is inevitable if he's President. But the checks and measures which operate in other countries - the constitution, the legislature, even the courts - in Russia are controlled by Putin. The whole edifice is corrupt. At the moment, according to other people on this thread, Russians support Putin, but at some stage this whole rotten structure will fall down. What will happen to Russia then? Ironically, the best description of this was by Putin himself in his Munich speech: 
> "Однако что же такое однополярный мир? Как бы ни украшали этот термин, он в конечном итоге означает на практике только одно: это один центр власти, один центр силы, один центр принятия решения. 
> Это мир одного хозяина, одного суверена. И это в конечном итоге губительно не только для всех, кто находится в рамках этой системы, но и для самого суверена, потому что разрушает его изнутри. 
> И это ничего общего не имеет, конечно, с демократией. Потому что демократия – это, как известно, власть большинства при учете интересов и мнений меньшинства."

 I think you demonise Putin. Russia is a huge country, it's physically impossible for a single person to check everything in such a country.

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## Hanna

@EdValais
I really don't know why you consider it necessary to put yourself in  judgment over Russia. It's really not that horrible, and it is certainly  not in any way a threat against Europe. 
Russia has significantly less people in prison than the USA. 
Russia has not been caught out spying on the world
Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions. 
Russia doesn't have drone programs to assasinate people it doesn't like in foreign countries. 
Russia has no history of invading one country after another for phony reasons, in order to gain control of natural resources and strategic locations. 
Russia doesn't have ~100,000 soldiers stationed in Europe and over 250 military bases across the globe, including places where they are very clearly not wanted. 
Russian's lives have improved over the last decade, compare with the USA.

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## edvalais

Serge, you seem to be saying that Zubov still has a job to go to on Monday. Personally, I doubt it. 
Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

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## Hanna

> Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

 "Fuck the EU". Wow, it seems they really respect us. The language about the UK is probably even more insulting. This was the tip of the iceberg.  
And there are some other top class ones by everyone from Bush to either one of the Clintons. 
So can you give a concrete example of something like that, by a Russian leader?

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## edvalais

> "Fuck the EU". Wow, it seems they really respect us. The language about the UK is probably even more insulting. This was the tip of the iceberg.  
> And there are some other top class ones by everyone from Bush to either one of the Clintons. 
> So can you give a concrete example of something like that, by a Russian leader?

 Maks -  
I could have really fun listing Putin's other crass and tactless comments, but here's just one to illustrate how he sometimes conducts himself abroad. And this matters - when people think of Russia, they think of Putin.   Get circumcised, angry Putin tells reporter | World news | The Guardian

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## SergeMak

> Serge, you seem to be saying that Zubov still has a job to go to on Monday. Personally, I doubt it. 
> Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

 I say you understand nothing in Russia, beginning with the language. As for Zubov, he is a pensioner, so he doesn't need to work for living. I read his article, his comparison of Putin with Hitler is a gross exaggeration and has nothing to do with reality. I think all he wants is to gain cheap popularity .

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## it-ogo

> Я воспринял твою историю, как попытку усомниться в зверствах бандеровцев, ты уж извини. Я вот тоже расскажу историю, которую слышал из первых рук, от деда моей жены. В 43м ему было 10 лет и он был в немецкой оккупации. Когда немцы получили люлей под Курском и начали драпать, часть СС, которая базировалась в их селе, получила приказ уничтожить всех жителей и сжечь село перед отступлением. В селе также было много полицаев, дед их называет бандеровцами. Ну так вот, дед рассказывал, как мать их сгребла в охапку и спряталась в кустах на огороде, пока немцы жгли их дом. Потом одного немца отправили прочесать огород. Он заглянул в кусты, увидел насмерть перепуганную бабу с детьми, поводил дулом автомата, сделал вид, что их не заметил, развернулся и ушёл. Не захотел брать грех на душу. А на другом конце села зачистку проводили бандеровцы. Так вот, там не выжил никто.

 Угу. Ну, если быть немного в курсе истории, к тому времени все горшки между УПА и оккупационной немецкой администрацией были побиты до состояния стрельбы on sight, а сам Бандера еще с 41-го сидел в Заксенхаузене, хотя и на особых условиях. Впрочем меня это мало трогает. Никто не обязан "разбираться в сортах г-на" - ты не обязан отличать УПА от полицаев, меня от Новодворской, а я тебя от, скажем, PaulG. B любом случае, судьбы всех героев и моей и твоей историй, скорее всего, уже давно решены так или иначе, и обвинять или оправдывать их - дело бессмысленное. Все, что мы можем - это делать для себя выводы из истории ВМВ. И я бы сделал, например, такие:
- От государства, строящего свою идеологию на шовинизме и использующего войска для защиты "соотечественников" от воображаемых кого-то там на территориях соседних государств, не следует ожидать ничего хорошего ни соседям, ни собственным гражданам.
- Всегда найдутся люди, готовые сотрудничать с оккупантами в качестве полицаев или марионеточных правителей, наличие их не означает, что от оккупации будет хорошо хоть кому-то, включая самих оккупантов.
...
Ну, насчет провокаторских и пропагандистских возможностей диктаторского государства я уже говорил.

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## edvalais

> I say you understand nothing in Russia, beginning with the language. As for Zubov, he is a pensioner, so he doesn't need to work for living. I read his article, his comparison of Putin with Hitler is a gross exaggeration and has nothing to do with reality. I think all he wants is to gain cheap popularity .

 Zubov didn't compare Putin with Hitler - in fact he is very careful to distinguish the two: 
"Гитлер и Путин – это совершенно разные люди, у них совершенно разные цели и устремления. Но то, что события внешней политики конца 30-х годов в жизни Германии и в современной жизни России схожи, очень похожи институционально – это так. Я в этом абсолютно уверен и готов доказать это как профессионал." 
Your comment about Zubov's age (which suggests a rather unpleasant attitude towards pensioners) doesn't seem to advance the argument, therefore let's put it quietly in the bin. 
You think Zubov will return to work on Monday - I don't. We can't both be right. Let's wait and see.  ::

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## DrBaldhead

> Угу. Ну, если быть немного в курсе истории, к тому времени все горшки между УПА и оккупационной немецкой администрацией были побиты до состояния стрельбы on sight, а сам Бандера еще с 41-го сидел в Заксенхаузене, хотя и на особых условиях. Впрочем меня это мало трогает. Никто не обязан "разбираться в сортах г-на" - ты не обязан отличать УПА от полицаев, меня от Новодворской, а я тебя от, скажем, PaulG. B любом случае, судьбы всех героев и моей и твоей историй, скорее всего, уже давно решены так или иначе, и обвинять или оправдывать их - дело бессмысленное. Все, что мы можем - это делать для себя выводы из истории ВМВ. И я бы сделал, например, такие:
> - От государства, строящего свою идеологию на шовинизме и использующего войска для защиты "соотечественников" от воображаемых кого-то там на территориях соседних государств, не следует ожидать ничего хорошего ни соседям, ни собственным гражданам.
> - Всегда найдутся люди, готовые сотрудничать с оккупантами в качестве полицаев или марионеточных правителей, наличие их не означает, что от оккупации будет хорошо хоть кому-то, включая самих оккупантов.
> ...
> Ну, насчет провокаторских и пропагандистских возможностей диктаторского государства я уже говорил.

   ...Наши соотечественники, хотим - защищаем, хотим - нет. Кому какое дело? А вы можете дальше сидеть и жалиться всяким богатеям, что вас  опять чем-то недоодарили.

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## SergeMak

> Zubov didn't compare Putin with Hitler - in fact he is very careful to distinguish the two: 
> "Гитлер и Путин – это совершенно разные люди, у них совершенно разные цели и устремления. Но то, что события внешней политики конца 30-х годов в жизни Германии и в современной жизни России схожи, очень похожи институционально – это так. Я в этом абсолютно уверен и готов доказать это как профессионал."

 I don't know where you got this qoutation, it's not from the article, and since you're following again your good habit of not providing links to you quotation, I "quitely put it in the bin".
Actually, (and I am sorry for my mistake) there was no direct comparison between Putin and Hitler in the notorious article. Actually, there was no mention about Putin at all, there was a comparison between the political processes that took place in Germany on the eve of "Anschluss" and in Russia now, which I think is quite a gross exaggeration. You can make sure about it if you take the labour to read the article: ВЕДОМОСТИ - Андрей Зубов: Это уже было
As you can see, the text of the article is not blocked and everyone can read it freely.     

> Your comment about Zubov's age (which suggests a rather unpleasant attitude towards pensioners) doesn't seem to advance the argument, therefore let's put it quietly in the bin.

  I don't have any unpleasant attitude to pensioners. I reminded about his age to make it clear that Zubov doesn't lose too much from his alleged retirement which is inevetable sooner or later because of his age, compared to the preferences he can get playing a role of a "martyr of conscience". Articles in respected Western magazines, lections in prestigious Western universities, maybe even full-time job in one of them - isn't the game worth the candles?
Compare this with the case of Kharkov's ex-governer Dobkin who is put under home arrest and against whome Kiev's power incriminates "encroachment on territorial integrity and inviolability of Ukraine, committed by a representative of the authorities», which is a crime that if proved means up to 5 years of imprisonment. All because of his words about federalization.   

> You think Zubov will return to work on Monday - I don't. We can't both be right. Let's wait and see.

 I don't care about Zubov. He is a man from the "elite", his "standard of life" is incomparably higher than that of simple Russian citizens as I am. So he can care of himself without my help.  ...and I will be the most friendly, kind and mild chap you can found on this forum.

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## Lampada

Напоминаю всем, что неуважительное обращение друг с другом в дискуссиях здесь неприемлемо и против правил форума, каковы бы ни были политические позиции оппонента.

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## edvalais

Moving on from petty squabbles... I invite Russians on this forum to consider the impact Putin's adventure in Crimea is having on your economy. Have a look at this weekend's Financial Times for a full analysis: 
- yields on Russia's 10-year government bonds are now at 9.7% (compared with less than 8% in January)
- the rouble is at 36.7 to the dollar, almost a record low
- Russian equities have lost 20% since the start of the year
- $55bn in private capital could flow out of Russia this quarter alone 
Add to this the very real risk that foreign banks will cut credit to Russian companies, and you get the general picture. Sad, dangerous times.

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## Lampada

> Moving on from petty squabbles... I invite Russians on this forum to consider the impact Putin's adventure in Crimea is having on your economy. Have a look at this weekend's Financial Times for a full analysis: 
> - yields on Russia's 10-year government bonds are now at 9.7% (compared with less than 8% in January)
> - the rouble is at 36.7 to the dollar, almost a record low
> - Russian equities have lost 20% since the start of the year
> - $55bn in private capital could flow out of Russia this quarter alone 
> Add to this the very real risk that foreign banks will cut credit to Russian companies, and you get the general picture. Sad, dangerous times.

 Это офф-топик.  Если хочешь, открой новую тему.

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## edvalais

> Это офф-топик.  Если хочешь, открой новую тему.

 This week's turmoil in Russia's stock and capital markets is a direct consequence of her desire to annexe Crimea. It is a reaction to the possibility of economic sanctions against Russia. I don't see how this is off-topic, sorry. However, if you don't wish people to discuss the consequences of "Crimea joining the Russian Federation" (the title of this thread) then, being a good boy, I will desist.

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## Lampada

> This week's turmoil in Russia's stock and capital markets is a direct consequence of her desire to annexe Crimea. It is a reaction to the possibility of economic sanctions against Russia. I don't see how this is off-topic, sorry. However, if you don't wish people to discuss the consequences of "Crimea joining the Russian Federation" (the title of this thread) then, being a good boy, I will desist.

 Ладно, пусть здесь остаётся.  Я добавлю что-нибудь к названию темы.

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## 14Russian

> This week's turmoil in Russia's stock and capital markets is a direct consequence of her desire to annexe Crimea. It is a reaction to the possibility of economic sanctions against Russia. I don't see how this is off-topic, sorry. However, if you don't wish people to discuss the consequences of "Crimea joining the Russian Federation" (the title of this thread) then, being a good boy, I will desist.

 Your points are unpopular to the regulars so you're being re-directed?  ::     Same as your 'free speech' topic being moved from 'Politics.'  LOL   I think the economics of Russia regarding the Crimea developments is relevant.   At the very least, there will be repercussions so that the West can save face as they did say there will be consequences.   They need to do even something minor.

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## SergeMak

A good time to begin to study Chinese. 我学汉语 你呢?

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## Lampada

> A good time to begin to study Chinese. 我学汉语 你呢?

 Nice!

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## SergeMak

> Nice!

 谢谢!  ::

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## Lampada

> 谢谢!

  Агащаз.  Мне от вас вполне достаточно.  Это уже пусть, кому интересно, гуглят.

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## SergeMak

It's "thank you" in Chinese.
What about the economic situation in Russia, it began to worsen a month before the Crimean events. And not only in Russia. Kazakhstan's currency also was devalued.
As for sanctions... Of course we hope to escape them, but even if we won't... I think sanctions for economy are like a fast for the body - they help to lose redundant  weight and strengthen one's heart and spirit.

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## Lampada

> It's "thank you" in Chinese.
> What about the economic situation in Russia, it began to worsen a month before the Crimean events. And not only in Russia. Kazakhstan's currency also was devalued.
> As for sanctions... Of course we hope to escape them, but even if we won't... I think sanctions for economy are like a fast for the body - they help to lose redundant  weight and strengthen one's heart and spirit.

 Да? Чем хуже, тем лучше? В интернете говорят, что всё было заранее обдумано и просчитано.  Я думаю, что ни для кого не лучше.  Мои стаки точно вниз пойдут.

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## SergeMak

Well, maybe it was beforehand thought and counted only by who? Isn't it strange that Putin talks more than an hour with Obama over the phone in the dead of the night and on the next morning the mysterious "green men" hold the Crimean Parliament? Then Putin communicates with Merkel and Crimea decides to go for the referendum. Don't you think that the world leaders are fooling us?
Maybe they are trying to convince their peoples that the inevitable worsening of the economies of their countries is not the consequence of the next turn of the world financial crisis which they cannot cope with, but fault of Russia, a traditional scarecrow for the Westerners and let Russia keep Crimea as a moral compensation?

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## Lampada

> Well, maybe it was beforehand thought and counted only by who? Isn't it strange that Putin talks more than an hour with Obama over the phone in the dead of the night and on the next morning the mysterious "green men" hold the Crimean Parliament? Then Putin communicates with Merkel and Crimea decides to go for the referendum. Don't you think that the world leaders are fooling us?
> Maybe they are trying to convince their peoples that the inevitable worsening of the economies of their countries is not the consequence of the next turn of the world financial crisis which they cannot cope with, but fault of Russia, a traditional scarecrow for the Westerners and let Russia keep Crimea as a moral compensation?

 Ой, не смешите мои тапочки!  Путин правит по указке Обамы? А до Обамы? А что будет после Обамы? Обаме чуть больше друх лет осталось.  
Честно говоря, я политикой вообще не интересуюсь и в ней не разбираюсь.  Важно, как политика отражается на жизни людей.  От разных резких перемен часто не приходится ждать хорошего.

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## SergeMak

Обама вообще клоун, который ничего не решает. Господа, которые принимают решения, которые озвучивает Вашингтон, на публике не любят светиться. Положение Путина довольно шаткое. Если бы он был хоть на 10% таким деспотом, как его рисует Запад, то есть где-то на 5% от уровня Сталина, все эти наши грефы, христенки, набиулины, зурабовы и прочая шушера давно пилила бы вековые ели лобзиком в Сибире. А так как этого не происходит, значит Путин всех устраивает, включая Меркель и Обаму.

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## Lampada

> Обама вообще клоун, который ничего не решает. Господа, которые принимают решения, которые озвучивает Вашингтон, на публике не любят светиться. Положение Путина довольно шаткое. Если бы он был хоть на 10% таким деспотом, как его рисует Запад, то есть где-то на 5% от уровня Сталина, все эти наши грефы, христенки, набиулины, зурабовы и прочая шушера давно пилила бы вековые ели лобзиком в Сибире. А так как этого не происходит, значит Путин всех устраивает, включая Меркель и Обаму.

 Можно считать, что страсти улеглись, Крым празднует победу.  А нам здесь можно уже переходить из Политики в другие разделы. 
Серёжа, примите отдельное приглашение!

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## SergeMak

Все только начинается, но спасибо за приглашение.

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## Paul G.

(preliminary information)

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## Hanna

Well, I am convinced by this referendum. It's definitely the will of the majority on Crimea to become Russians. Good luck to them. I hope Russia will treat them really well.  
Sure, I can spot that there was  no third option on the ballot, and that the campaigning situation gave Russia an edge. Defininitely a lot of money was spent on some very populistic campaigning. But looking at the convincing figures, the high level of participation and the exultation in people celebrating, it's still definitely the will of the majority. 
And it doesn't matter if it had been done _perfectly_ by the book.... The EU and USA, and in extension, media in these countries would never have approved of the referendum regardless. Might as well not bother trying.  
As for Ukraine ..this type of thing that happens, if a counry alienates minorities and exerts language oppression. The EU collectively  knows this, but supported coup makers that they know don't tolerate minorities. I think the EU did Ukraine a disservice, and that many Ukrainians let themselves be manipulated.  
Hopefully the new government in Kiev will consider how they treat minority people in Ukraine in light of this.  
It wouldn't surprise me if this referendum and the outcome will serve as a catalyst for other European areas that also find themselves in the wrong country, or would like independence. There are plenty. 
So this will be the THIRD country that a 35 year old+  Crimean is a citizen of, without actually moving!

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## UhOhXplode

I totally do respect the Crimean Referendum and the results. I read the document, issed by the Council of Ministries in Simferopol, that ordered all the soldiers to disarm and turn in their weapons for the duration of the referendum. I also read that there were 135 International observoers and that the voting was peaceful. Btw, it trumps the bloody US military coup of the monarchy that led to the annexation of Hawaii. If our country can destroy their government, kill most of the Hawaiians, and claim those islands then yeah, I think a referendum for peaceful annexation is totally valid. 
Anyway, I've already edited my geopolitical world map and my map of Russia to include Crimea as part of the Russian Federation. And I added Севастополь, Симферополь, and Керчь to my list of Russian cities. This is history happening! Crimea FTW!

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## it-ogo

> Well, I am convinced by this referendum.

  

> I totally do respect the Crimean Referendum and the results.

 Well, OK, I understand, you have no experience in voting during foreign military occupation. But at least you can try to think about the following questions. 
1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only native Crimean ethnos. After WWII ALL of them (the whole ethnos) were brought away from Crimea with many casualities and without possessions to elsewhere (mainly to the Central Asia) by Russian (Soviet) militaries (nowadays it is called "ethnic cleaning"). The survivors came back recently and up to now they many times showed their position as anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian and were very active in public actions etc. Namely just before invasion and after the runaway of Yanukovich they were making intensive anti-Russian mass protests. Now the question: why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about 100%? 
2) In the elections before the invasion the pro-russian party of contemporary Crimean "government" gained 3% of votes. What exactly made other 92% of population change their opinion so drastically? (If you say it is the revolution against Yanukovich, remember that the similar revolution in 2004 didn't cause such an effect).

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## Suobig

> Well, OK, I understand, you have no experience in voting during foreign military occupation. But at least you can try to think about the following questions.

 Were there any information of people being threated or forced to vote one way or another?    

> Now the question: why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about 100%?

 Yes, why are they so quiet? May be something were offered to them and that offer was accepted? Or you think russian army threatened them with genocide in case of wrong behavior?   

> 2) In the elections before the invasion the pro-russian party of contemporary Crimean "government" gained 3% of votes. What exactly made other 92% of population change their opinion so drastically? (If you say it is the revolution against Yanukovich, remember that the similar revolution in 2004 didn't cause such an effect).

 Did that party had any real power or financial resources for election campaing? Or were they just bunch of blabbers trying to capitalize on pro-russian rhetoric? Didn't Region Party have pro-russian rhetoric (esp. in Crimea), being direct competitor of these pro-russian parties?

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## Ramil

> Now the question: why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about 100%?

 They've been simply bought. Their leaders have already received several million dollars 'for building a mosque' and I expect they will receive some extra in the near future. Putin gave personal guarantees that their current property will remain 'as is' (which means that everything they had illegally appropriated before will remain theirs de-jure). I'd say this is more than enough to change sides. I doubt they were too patriotic about Ukraine anyway. As for the rest of the population - they all know that salaries and pensions are generally higher in Russia that they had been in Ukraine during Yanukovich's rule and certainly they will be much higher now. Everybody voted by their purse and I don't blame them. I would do the same.

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## it-ogo

> They've been simply bought. Their leaders have already received several million dollars 'for building a mosque' and I expect they will receive some extra in the near future. Putin gave personal guarantees that their current property will remain 'as is' (which means that everything they had illegally appropriated before will remain theirs de-jure). I'd say this is more than enough to change sides. I doubt they were too patriotic about Ukraine anyway. As for the rest of the population - they all know that salaries and pensions are generally higher in Russia that they had been in Ukraine during Yanukovich's rule and certainly they will be much higher now. Everybody voted by their purse and I don't blame them. I would do the same.

 You have points, (but it was not you who was asked to think about that). So some militaries came and Putin said: "you see, Ukraine can't protect you from my militaries but you will be allowed to continue with your lives and even to keep your posessions (behold my generosity!)  if your behavior satisfies me". Now the next question to our Western readers: can you still support such kind of referendum? Do you still believe it shows the free will of anyone? 
And one point to you, Ramil: if those people believed that their votes will really be taken into account (or even registered and counted) by anyone wouldn't they be much more difficult to buy? 
My point is: when foreign militaries come and a powerfull dictator makes clear they are here to stay whatever anyone else can think about that, there is no way to make any expression of free will. Maybe crimean population has an opinion (maybe they are happy or not), but the one who now in charge doesn't need it really, and everyone understands that, so we can't reliably find out anyone's opinion. All they can is to relax and try to enjoy the situation. 
All we see is nobody in Crimea is ready to spend their lives fighting the Russian army for now. And that is the kind of social agreement dictators usually deal with.

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## Ramil

There was no choice whatsoever. *To fight for what? For whom?* They've told everything's going to be if not better but the same at least. You really think they'd be supporting Ukrainian cause in this situation? I really doubt they were bullied into vote and I really doubt many people in Crimea now are disappointed about how the things have turned out.

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## it-ogo

> There was no choice whatsoever. *To fight for what? For whom?* They've told everything's going to be if not better but the same at least. You really think they'd be supporting Ukrainian cause in this situation? I really doubt they were bullied into vote and I really doubt many people in Crimea now are disappointed about how the things have turned out.

 As for Tatars - they can fight, for example, for not being cleaned again. You can easily see even at our forum that ethnic cleaning is not something tootally inacceptable for the most of contemporary Russian citizens. Though those few Crimean Tatars I knew personally were very peaceful people. 
Yes, I beleve that most locals doesn't care about Ukrainian cause, and just want to live and hope for better. I believe even that in 1941 in territories captured by Germans situation was the same and if Hitler cared for referendum and provided some informatonal and organizational efforts, most people would come and vote for joining Reich without direct threat and being arrested etc. If people are not actually provided with a choice, the majority just do whatever current authority wants them to - just in case. 
Before invasion there was a choice - and there were discussions, political life, demonstrations even a kind of quarrels and fights in Crimea. After invasion all of that stopped - there is nothing to discuss anymore, everything is quiet and even crime rate dropped down (  ::  ), just some armed men without signs here and there. Well, the society of slaves has many pros against the society of citizens, yes.

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## Ramil

> As for Tatars - they can fight, for example, for not being cleaned again. You can easily see even at our forum that ethnic cleaning is not something tootally inacceptable for the most of contemporary Russian citizens. Though those few Crimean Tatars I knew personally were very peaceful people.

 Noone's going to cleanse them. You know it, they know it, and I know it as well. So stop bullshitting people.   

> I believe even that in 1941 in territories captured by Germans situation was the same and if Hitler cared for referendum and provided some informatonal and organizational efforts, most people would come and vote for joining Reich without direct threat and being arrested etc.

 Then why so many people on occupied territories went underground and joined resistance?  
P.S. I'm just stating my point. I'm not going to argue with you since you apparently have set your mind to stone about several things that I simply do not agree with. 
P.S.S. There was NO invasion, by the way. According to treaty with the Ukrainian government Russia could station up to 25,000 servicemen in Crimea. From a political standpoint Russia did nothing wrong (I'm not questioning abstract morality of the whole situation since I do not believe there is a place for such things in politics - just the so called 'internationa law'). There was a coup in Kiev, the official government was overthrown and some political opportunists seized the power without vote. There was nobody official in Kiev to negotiate with so Russia simply took the necessary actions to protect its assets in Crimea. As for the referendum - it just happenned alongway. That is the consequence of illegal and unconstitutional actions that took place in Kiev.

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## it-ogo

> Noone's going to cleanse them. You know it, they know it and I know it as well. So stop bullshitting people.

 I knew that noone would attack Ukraine from the East when we experience difficult time to cut a part of territory and cause/support all kind of troubles on the rest of our territory. My knowledge was wrong. Rules are in the process of change and noone knows where it comes. Why not some cleansings? Who will mind? Will you?

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## Ramil

> I knew that noone would attack Ukraine from the East when we experience difficult time to cut a part of territory and cause/support all kind of troubles on the rest of our territory. My knowledge was wrong. Rules are in the process of change and noone knows where it comes. Why not some cleansings? Who will mind? Will you?

 As I said - that's pure bullshit.

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## it-ogo

> As I said - that's pure bullshit.

 I know, that's pure bullshit - you will never protest against any crime of your rulers and state. That's why mr. Poo can do whatever he likes and cleanse whoever he likes.

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## Ramil

> I know, that's pure bullshit - you will never protest against any crime of your rulers and state. That's why mr. Poo can do whatever he likes and cleanse whoever he likes.

 You protested much as it appears. There's no use in crying over a spilled milk. Still there will be no cleanings. I was speaking of them, not protesting against anything.

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## SergeMak

About professor Zubov once again. He is a responsible editor of a 2-volume book "History of Russia" which in the beginning was created under the guidance of Solzhenitsin, but lately he decided to distance himself from that project. The reasons for that is in his letter:

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## UhOhXplode

> Well, OK, I understand, you have no experience in voting during foreign military occupation. But at least you can try to think about the following questions. 
> 1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only native Crimean ethnos. After WWII ALL of them (the whole ethnos) were brought away from Crimea with many casualities and without possessions to elsewhere (mainly to the Central Asia) by Russian (Soviet) militaries (nowadays it is called "ethnic cleaning"). The survivors came back recently and up to now they many times showed their position as anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian and were very active in public actions etc. Namely just before invasion and after the runaway of Yanukovich they were making intensive anti-Russian mass protests. Now the question: why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about 100%? 
> 2) In the elections before the invasion the pro-russian party of contemporary Crimean "government" gained 3% of votes. What exactly made other 92% of population change their opinion so drastically? (If you say it is the revolution against Yanukovich, remember that the similar revolution in 2004 didn't cause such an effect).

 You are right, I don't have any experience voting in an occupied country but I have "voted" when my safety (and maybe even my life) was threatened. When 2 college dudes attacked my friend, I "voted" to help him. I coulda just walked away and been safe but I didn't. My ribs were bruised and my jaw was fractured but I didn't stop fighting. Sometimes you have to do what's right even if it hurts. 
1. I don't know anything about the history of the Crimean Tatars yet. But don't forget, the population of Hawaii is only 10% native Hawaiians because most of them were killed in the military coup staged by the US. So if the annexation of Hawaii by America was legal then how can anyone say that the annexation of Crimea by Russia isn't? At least the Crimean people had the chance to vote. The Hawaiians didn't. Btw, the native Hawaiians still want their islands back but it probably won't ever happen.
Anyway, I don't think the UN or International Laws would allow ethnic cleaning now so the Tatars are safe from that. I also read that a lot of Ukrainians work in Russia because the jobs in Ukraine don't pay them enough.So Crimeans may have a better chance to have better jobs now. 
2. I don't know very much about the Orange Revolution because I haven't studied that yet. But it's also possible that their opinions were different before the pro-Russian movement because they were afraid what might happen to their families if they spoke out against the government. I do know that in American history, the revolutionaries met secretly so that the British wouldn't know who they were till they were ready to attack. So maybe the Crimeans changed their opinion because they were afraid of the Russians. But maybe they were just hiding their real opinions till they knew that Russia would back them up. I don't know but those Crimean voters seemed way too happy for people that are living in fear so I think they were just hiding their real opinions... till now.
In the military it's called "the element of surprise". 
I study a lot of history (even military history) and I've even been reading Sun Tzu's book, The Art Of War. But my favorite topic is Russian history so I know I'll learn a lot more about the USSR in the future. US history was easy because it only covers less than 300 years. Russian history is more than a thousand years so that's gonna take a lot longer.

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## DDT

> *Somebody* orderered the shooting of civilians with sniper rifles. Some yobs are in power who might very well be extreme nationalists, possibly Nazis, and the whole country is about to get into the clutches of the IMF, Washington and Brussels. .

   Yes the yobs are the US/EU/Globalists. The Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs is aware and mentioned this in a phone call to a US stateswoman. The USA spent 5 Billion Dollars inciting the Ukraine riots. Don't think for a minute that they did not also provide the snipers to shoot a both the police and the protestors.

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## Lampada

> ... Don't think for a minute that they did not also provide the snipers to shoot a both the police and the protestors.

 
Привет!

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## maxmixiv

> Russia simply took the necessary actions to protect its assets in Crimea

 Took actions and in passing the whole peninsula  :Confused:

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## DDT

Leaked EU’s Ashton Phone Tape: Kiev Snipers Were Hired by US Supported Opposition Leaders  Leaked EU’s Ashton Phone Tape: Kiev Snipers Were Hired by US Supported Opposition Leaders | Global Research

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## SAn

Моя версия происходящего такова: 
Несколько лет назад мы с женой отдыхали в Крыму, и решили перекусить в Макдоналдс. Простояв в очереди до кассы, мы заказали, помимо всего прочего, картофель-фри с сырным соусом. На что кассир заявила: «Сколько можно повторять... У нас нет сырного соуса! Здесь вам не Россия. Здесь Украина. В украинских Макдоналдсах нет сырного соуса». Вся очередь, услышав это, загалдела: «Как нет сырного соуса?!», «Как Украина?!», «Разве Крым — это Украина?!», «Почему в Украине всё так плохо?!», «А я сколько раз говорил, что Крым надо присоединять к России!». Ну и далее в этом духе. 
Вот так и началась вся эта заварушка вокруг Крыма...

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## Ramil

> Took actions and in passing the whole peninsula

 No way. It was the locals who voted yesterday. Russian soldiers simply made sure there was no threats to their naval base and the civilians considering the absence of legitimate power in Ukraine.

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## Ramil

> Это всё из-за сырного соуса...

 Да, думаю, ты изолировал главную причину.  ::

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## maxmixiv

Есть ещё такое мнение: Мнение: Не надо жертвовать

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## maxmixiv

> Russian soldiers simply made sure there was no threats to their naval base and the civilians considering the absence of legitimate power in Ukraine.

 Of course  ::

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## Hanna

> They've been simply bought. Their leaders have already received several million dollars 'for building a mosque' and I expect they will receive some extra in the near future. Putin gave personal guarantees that their current property will remain 'as is' (which means that everything they had illegally appropriated before will remain theirs de-jure). I'd say this is more than enough to change sides. I doubt they were too patriotic about Ukraine anyway. As for the rest of the population - they all know that salaries and pensions are generally higher in Russia that they had been in Ukraine during Yanukovich's rule and certainly they will be much higher now. Everybody voted by their purse and I don't blame them. I would do the same.

 
Yes, of course. The same way that "Yes to EU" was bought in a number of countries. Public opinion magically turning in just a few months. 
I was part of it myself, using populistic arguments and expensive campaigning because I thought at the time, it was the right thing.  
I understand that the Crimea vote is partly, or even largely about money, as well as language and nationalism for 40+ people. Nothing new under the sun!  
Nevertheless, it DOES reflect the will of the people.  
There were international observers in place, obviously not the EU "approved" ones since they would never have been allowed to go there, but political scientists from a wide variety of countries, including countries quite hostile to Russia, like Poland Estonia and Czech Republic. As well as several long standing EU countries. There is no way that whole group would have been hood winked.  
Even if you account for any possible irregularities, the participation was high, and the number of votes were overwhelming.  
The Swedish main paper who were there reporting, WANTED to find somebody who had voted No to interview, but had to admit they didn't actually  anyone. BBC found one woman wearing a full middle eastern style hijab, who voted no. I doubt she'd be any happier in Ukraine than Russia though. 
The other point to consider is that none of this would have happened if there hadn't been a coup d'etat in Ukraine. And I very much doubt the coup d'etat would have taken place if the EU and USA hadn't come to cheer it on. They created this situation, and those Ukrainians who were stupid enough to smash up their capital for a coup d'etat one measly year before the next election.  
Remains to see if the situation in Eastern Ukraine can be resolved to a level that satisfies the majority, so there is no repetition of this.     

> Well, OK, I understand, you have no experience in voting during foreign  military occupation. But at least you can try to think about the  following questions. 
> 1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only  native Crimean ethnos. After WWII ALL of them (the whole ethnos) were  brought away from Crimea with many casualities and without possessions  to elsewhere (mainly to the Central Asia) by Russian (Soviet) militaries  (nowadays it is called "ethnic cleaning"). The survivors came back  recently and up to now they many times showed their position as  anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian and were very active in public actions  etc. Namely just before invasion and after the runaway of Yanukovich  they were making intensive anti-Russian mass protests. Now the question:  why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are  distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining  Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come  to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about  100%? 
> 2) In the elections before the invasion the pro-russian party of  contemporary Crimean "government" gained 3% of votes. What exactly made  other 92% of population change their opinion so drastically? (If you say  it is the revolution against Yanukovich, remember that the similar  revolution in 2004 didn't cause such an effect).

 I read up on the Crimean tatars. Don't quite get why they should be any more loyal to Ukraine than Russia though? Seems to me they ought to want complete independence for Crimea, or some kind of union with Turkey. As Russian citizens today, in modern times, they have nothing to worry about, and can join with many other minorities to make sure they get their fair share, and some, of the cake!  From what I see out of Kiev, they'll have more rights in Russia, and they'll get more support for their culture and language. Maybe Russia should consider compensating them for the treatment they received under Stalin. Europe is full of minorities that were oppressed, treated poorly and had their land conquered and stolen  in the past. They are certainly not the only ones. A sincere apology and solid support and commitment for their culture and language is the best that any country can do to make up for the past. My impression is that Russia will try to do that. Otherwise I would be the first to support them in complaining.  
As for now, vs 2004.... Yes, it's interesting. You know I am a Pol. Science geek, and this is about as fascinating as it gets... 
 I think the explanation is:   The revolution in Kiev, and the destruction.EU doesn't offer anything concrete if you scratch the surface. Russia does.Russia is much richer now than in 2004 while this cannot be said for Ukraine. Russia can actually offer them a better standard of living.The language issueSoviet inspired patriotism among over 40s, now directed towards Russia.  Singing songs, waving flags and being part of something big...People are more confident about democratic rights and standing up for themselves.  
With this, I am not saying that Russia is some perfect country, or that I would like MY country to be Russian. What I am saying is that the reasons the Crimeans changed their opinion makes sense to me, and I think this referendum reflects the will of the great majority.  
Allowing the revolution opened up a Pandora's box. It seems to me, that losing Crimea is the direct result of the revolution. Areas take this opportunity when they can don't they? For example Finland took the opportunity in the chaos of the Russian revolution. 
I hope the situation in Eastern Ukraine can be resolved between Ukrainians without Russia getting involved. Once is enough and I certainly took in what it-Ogo said in a previous post 
Also, to it-Ogo I want to say; I totally get that this is emotional and upsetting for you. It's a real pity that it came to it. 
Sure, Russia is opportunistic to take advantage of it. But I think Crimea was too big a prize to reject, when it's practically served on a platter!    
 I also think Crimea was one of the main reasons the EU and USA took an interest in this, but they failed to predict the turn of events. Now, all that remains is a smearing campaign and propaganda war! 
They are virtually ignoring the situation in Eastern Ukraine, clearly it's not "interesting" enough, and the people of Ukraine was never their concern, it was about influence - economic and military.  I think you are justified to be seriously p-d off with Russia, but I hope you also agree that the EU and USA are serious culprits in this.

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## DDT

> 1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only native Crimean ethnos.

   I wouldn't call Tatars native to Crimea. They were invaders (as I am sure you know). The Kievan Rus, Slavs themselves predate the Tartars and have maintained their presence ever since. They the Slavs are the oldest natives of this region, whether they are Russian or Ukrainian. The very first people recorded in Crimea were Cimmerians. Even the Greeks predate the Tartars in Crimea. Also, I think 15% is a little high. Most figures tell us that it is 12%  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol...ates_in_Europe

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## DDT

> Maybe Russia should consider compensating them for the treatment they received under Stalin.

   But if Russia took that line of thinking, where wold it stop?  Then Russia would have to demand compensation back from the Tartars for all the times in history that Tartars trashed the Slavs! Besides, it was not the Russian Federation that deported the Tartars but the Soviet Union.

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## DDT

Ukraine: The facts and understanding them  READ: (Your English will have to be very good to be able to understand some of this  Of Nazis & Communists | Save America Foundation  "Naive protesters who believed the propaganda that EU membership offered a better life are due to lose half of their pension by April.  But this is only the beginning."

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## Ramil

> But if Russia took that line of thinking, where wold it stop?  Then Russia would have to demand compensation back from the Tartars for all the times in history that Tartars trashed the Slavs! Besides, it was not the Russian Federation that deported the Tartars but the Soviet Union.

 A nice line of thought. I think Russia should declare itself an inheritor of the Huns Empire and raise our claims to all of the Eastern and Middle Europe as far as Italy (Attila DID capture Rome after all).

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## Hanna

> But if Russia took that line of thinking, where wold it stop?  Then Russia would have to demand compensation back from the Tartars for all the times in history that Tartars trashed the Slavs! Besides, it was not the Russian Federation that deported the Tartars but the Soviet Union.

 Yes, that's a good point. Well, maybe they could do something symbolic. These people have been seriously messed around over the last 100 years, and deserve an apology and recognition for it. Like I mentioned, they are by far the only ones in Europe. Language oppression, eviction from lands etc was quite common up until early 20th century, and later in some countries. You can't undo the past, but you can help the current generation..   
Was there any merit to Stalin's suspicions and how did they fare in Central Asia?  
However, I read in a blurb about them, that in the 17th century they used to capture entire villages in Ukraine and Russia, and sell the population as slaves to Turkey. Charming!  So the question is, how far back do you go with things like this. 
Maybe best to just let the past rest. But since they were the most reluctant to changing country, a nice gesture would have been appropriate.  
One more observation: Knowing Russian political scientists who are notoriously sharp, on-the-ball and pragmatic, they had a scenario drawn up for exactly this scenario YEARS ago. They didn't start it. But I think they were aware that it was a possibility, and were prepared. And the revolutionaries, the EU, as well as the Crimeans themselves played straight into Russia's hands. What can you say to that? It was darn clever and nobody has been hurt.  
Russia gets one of its crown jewels back, and the Crimeans get more money in their pockets, more stability and no language opression. Win-win for all but Ukraine and Nato.  
 I don't think this was 100% kosher of Russia. But from a political science viewpoint, it is foreign policy at its cleverest. And all the odds here is that everyone will end up better for it. I think it's going to be Christmas for the Crimeans for quite a while to come. With Moscow as Father Christmas. Good luck to them! Hope they get lots of good new hospitals, schools, roads, jobs and whatever else they need!

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## Hanna

Regarding the Sanctions against Russia.  
The "sanctions" seem rather ridiculous, since EU is well too dependent on Russian oil, gas and other natural resources to carry out any serious sanctions. (If there was a feasible alternative to Russian oil and gas they would have used it, but there isn't.) 
However they say the assets of some people from Russia and Crimea will be frozen.  
1) These politicians shouldn't *have* any significant assets abroad to start with, if they are honest! If they are not honest and keep a fortune in stock or assets in Western Europe, then it serves them right to lose it, who cares?   
2) Can the USA actually control all banks in the entire world? I would imagine the people affected saw this coming, and moved their money out of the reach of the US or EU, if that's at all possible.

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## DrBaldhead

Sanctions they say? Do they know that Ukrainian nazi leader Yarosh threats to blow up Ukrainian gas transporting system? "To stop Russia from earning money". 
Aaand leave the EU without up to 40% of its gas. Accidentally. Because his "Right sector" actually never gave a darn about the EU. 
So this sworn enemy of Russia has suddenly become the gun which fires at both directions.

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## Basil77

A very sane opinion from German Bundestag (English subtitles):    
Перевод на русский:   

> Господин президент! Господа! 
> Путин хочет решить кризис на Украине  военным путём. Он не понял, что проблемы человечества не решаются ни  солдатами, ни оружием. Наоборот. И проблемы России так не решаются. Он  мыслит и действует неверно. Мы осуждаем его. Однако это – то же самое  мышление, царившее и царящее на Западе в отношении Югославии,  Афганистана, Ирака и Ливии.  
> На место конфронтации систем пришло  столкновение интересов США и России. Холодная война закончилась, но  подобная противоположность интересов может приобрести схожие черты. США  хотят получить больше влияния и сохранить имеющееся влияние. И Россия  хочет получить больше влияния и сохранить имеющееся влияние. В качестве  стержневых слов в отношении России назову лишь Грузию, Сирию, Украину.  Хотя действия Путина и осуждаются, нужно понимать, каким образом  обострилась ситуация. Я скажу вам недвусмысленно: всё, что НАТО и ЕС  могли сделать неверно, они сделали неверно.  
> Начну с Горбачёва в  1990 году. Он предложил общий европейский дом, роспуск НАТО, Организации  Варшавского договора и концепцию совместной безопасности с Россией. Всё  это НАТО отклонило. Оно сказало: «Хорошо, распустим ОВД, но НАТО  останется». И из оборонительного союза НАТО становится союзом  интервентов. 
> Вторая ошибка: при объединении Германии госсекретарь  США, наш бывший министр иностранных дел Геншер и другие министры  иностранных дел заявили Горбачёву, что НАТО не будет расширяться на  Восток. Это обещание было нарушено. НАТО осуществило резкий рывок в  сторону России.  
> Бывший министр обороны США Роберт Гейтс  поспешный приём восточноевропейских стран в НАТО назвал грубой ошибкой, а  попытку Запада пригласить Украину в НАТО – грубой провокацией. Не я это  заявил, а бывший министр обороны США. 
> В-третьих, было принято  решение разместить ракеты в Польше и Чехии. Правительство России  сказало: «Это задевает наши интересы в области безопасности. Мы не хотим  этого». Запад это вообще не интересовало. И он продолжал своё.  
> Затем  НАТО много раз грубо нарушало международное право в Югославии. Это  признаёт даже бывший канцлер Шрёдер. Сербия не нападала на другое  государство, и не было решения Совета Безопасности ООН. Однако были  бомбардировки, и Германия была задействована в них впервые с 1945 года. А  жители Косова на референдуме смогли принять решение об отделении от  Сербии.  
> Я тогда подверг жёсткой критике нарушение международного  права и сказал вам: «В случае с Косово вы открываете шкатулку Пандоры.  Если вы разрешаете это в Косово, то вы должны разрешить то же самое и в  других местах». Вы меня обругали. Вы не приняли это всерьёз. Причём вы  считали себя победителями в холодной войне, для которых не действовали  прежние нормы. Я говорю вам: баски спрашивают, почему им нельзя провести  референдум, хотят ли они быть частью Испании или нет. Каталонцы  спрашивают, почему им нельзя провести референдум, хотят ли они быть  частью Испании или нет. Конечно, то же самое теперь спрашивают жители  Крыма.  
> ...

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## Hanna

> Sanctions they say? Do they know that Ukrainian nazi leader Yarosh threats to blow up Ukrainian gas transporting system? "To stop Russia from earning money". 
> Aaand leave the EU without up to 40% of its gas. Accidentally. Because his "Right sector" actually never gave a darn about the EU. 
> So this sworn enemy of Russia has suddenly become the gun which fires at both directions.

 
For many of us in Northern Europe it's just *mind boggling* to see politicians and media who are so anti-nazi and anti-nationalism that you can't even have a discussion about immigration, go and hug and support extreme nationalists and open nazis in Ukraine. People who can't tolerate anyone but those who speak the same language, bash Jews and minorities. You get sent to prison for just talking about doing such things in Western Europe. Let alone actually do it.  
The same with media. If somebody says something against immigration or non-European cultures their career is over... But on the same time media goes to Ukraine, and turn these nazis into heroes and freedom fighters.  
The double standard is so obvious and nauseating that you have to have been lobotomized not to notice. 
@Basil77, that German politician is a socialist, surpise, surprise. They are in opposition, so it's Angela's opinion that goes.... Look at how  most of them don't applaud, even though they KNOW it's true. Darn hypocrites.

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## Crocodile

> Croc, how can they become independent with such a deficit?

 Sorry for the late response, I just recently got back to the MR and I have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you guys..  ::  
To answer your question, I honestly have no idea as I am not a professional in Crimean budget and to be honest I have yet a lot to learn in the field of finance. All I said was that I personally noticed many Crimeans were unhappy to be part of Ukraine mainly because of their local interests being constantly ignored and/or diminished. So, my understanding of the situation is that a certain part of the Crimean 'political elite' tried to use the opportunity of the central power in Kiev being weaker than usual to wrestle a better autonomy, but the negotiations failed. Kiev believed they have 'the West and the entire world' on their side so they felt strong. Hence, the moves of the Crimean Parliament were declared illegal and Kiev had opened legal cases against Crimean MPs. So, the Parliament had the only choice left. Apparently, Russia made an offer the Crimean MPs couldn't refuse. 
So, my forecast for Crimea to stay with Ukraine turned out to be wrong.  ::  I though Crimea would be used for negotiations with the EU/US, but it seems those guys were able to strike a different deal. Now, I hear Russia wants to have Alaska back or something like that.. Gosh.. Was that Maidan revolt worth it all? Why not to just wait for Yanukovich's term to expire in less than a year and elect a new leader?  ::

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## diogen_

> Now, I hear Russia wants to have Alaska back or something like that.. Gosh.. Was that Maidan revolt worth it all? Why not to just wait for Yanukovich's term to expire in less than a year and elect a new leader?

 Yes, exactly “something like that” , and its already too late to crying over spilt milk!  It turned out that the debtor indebtedness of California for Fort Ross has not been paid in due time and amassed to a pretty penny by now. The deal can be easily  nullified!!  

> В 1839 году Российско-американская компания приняла решение оставить Росс и продать его. Компания Гудзонова залива не заинтересовалась предложенной ей сделкой. Правительство Мексики, продолжавшее считать землю под Россом своей, не пожелало платить за неё, ожидая, что русские просто забросят колонию. Наконец в 1841 году Росс был продан гражданину Мексики швейцарского происхождения Джону Саттеру[4], основателю поселения Новая Гельвеция, владевшему почти 200 км² земли в её окрестностях[9] за 42857 руб. серебром. В счёт оплаты Саттер поставлял на Аляску пшеницу, но, по свидетельству П. Головина, *так и недоплатил почти 37,5 тыс. руб.*

 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Форт-Росс 
 This exemplifies why the despicable descendant of Kenyan  barmaleys temporarily having a sit on Capitol Hill was so reticent today in his customarily venomous russophobic  diatribes targeted at habitually peace loving Russians guarding peace and rest and comfort of the Crimea peninsula inhabitants!!

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## Полуношник

А Янукович высказался по поводу Крыма? Он считает себя легитимным президентом. Росиия, как я понимаю, тоже. Ведь, если признать, что он не президент, то парламент становится легитимной властью. Так что думает президент Украины об отделении Крыма?

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## E-learner

> Why not to just wait for Yanukovich's term to expire in less than a year and elect a new leader?

  It was more than a year, not that it matters. 
My opinion: 
1. There was no chance whatsoever of even remotely fair elections.
   2. Nevertheless, I don't think this Maidan happened intentionally. I think the opposition was preparing it exactly to the next elections -- "Maidan 2004 version 2". But it happened, and they had no choice but participate. Then Yanukovich signed something with Putin. From what I read about it, I got convinced (maybe not only me) -- the Ukraine became no more than a province of Russia. If the West got that impression too -- this could explain their determination.

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## Crocodile

> From what I read about it, I got convinced (maybe not only me) -- now the Ukraine is no more than a province of Russia.

 What you're saying makes sense.. So you're saying they got to the power last time through the revolution, so they did not want to waste the time [letting Yanukovich sign something they will not respect anyways] and started the revolution right away [for the fear the elections will not be fair]?

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## 14Russian

> A very sane opinion from German Bundestag (English subtitles):

 You mean, insane?   A German politician?  That's what you call sane?   They only care about their profits, their investments in Russia? 
"Когда Австрийская партия свободы Хайдера вошла в правительство, то прекращались контакты и так далее. А в случае с фашистами с Украины ничего не делаем? У «Свободы» тесные контакты с НДПГ и другими нацистскими партиями в Европе. А председатель партии Олег Тягныбок заявил буквально следующее. Я цитирую. Запомните, что он сказал. Начало цитаты: «Берите оружие, сражайтесь с русскими свиньями, с немцами, с жидовскими свиньями и прочей заразой». Конец цитаты.
Повторяю: этот человек сказал - начало цитаты: «Берите оружие, сражайтесь с русскими свиньями, с немцами, с жидовскими свиньями и прочей заразой». Конец цитаты.
Уже сейчас на евреев и левых ведётся охота. И вы молчите? И с этими людьми из «Свободы» вы ещё разговариваете?" 
This has already been proven to be BS - the myth that Svoboda and company are 'nazis' - maybe faux nazis.   Jewish leaders have been on record defending them.   But, of course, you are selective with your sources like the rest of the neo-Soviet BS-ers.

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## Hanna

> Sorry for the late response, I just recently got back to the MR and I have a lot of reading to do to catch up with you guys..

 Haha you are very polite, just jump in.

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## diogen_

Today it’s all over. Crimea IS part of the Russian Federation from now on. All my foresights on this and other “Ukrainian” threads have come true so far. 
Hereby, I solemnly but humbly declare myself The Great Oracle: Diogenes the Wisest or in Russian- Великий Оракул: Диоген Премудрый.   ::

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## Crocodile

/* fanfares sound */ 
Glory! Glory to The Great Oracle: Diogenes the Wisest!  
/* fanfares silent */ 
Knee!! 
/* slamming my tail over diogen_'s head.. */ 
Rise the Knight of the Order of the Large and Sharp Teeth! From this day on you are entitled to add the Tooth to your Coat of Arms!

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## Ramil

> Today it’s all over.

 I wish it was so.  В Симферополе с одной точки обстреляли бойцов самообороны и украинскую военную часть - Газета.Ru | Новости 
If things like that escalate then 'all' begins only now.

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## Crocodile

Everythin's gonna be alright, everythin's gonna be ok: Индексы Европы и

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## Ramil

> Everythin's gonna be alright, everythin's gonna be ok: Индексы Европы и

 Ну да, после таких-то "санкций" только посмеялись все.

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## Crocodile

Дык, люди уже опытные. Один раз на те же грабли не наступают. Сработало со свитой Янука, но сейчас нужно фантазию включать. Потому, будем ждать десятый пакет санкций. Кстати, насчёт стрельбы в Симфе, кто там говорил, что крымчанам никогда ничего не грозило? Ну, посмотрим на реакцию "зелёных человечков"...

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## Ramil

> Ну, посмотрим на реакцию "зелёных человечков"...

 Ну реакция-то, может, и будет. Только на реакцию-то и провоцируют. 
Там по перешейку, как я понял, не проскочишь. А как с "морской границей"? Там, мне кажется, сейчас слона провезти можно, не только снайпера.

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## Twonkybot

I'm sorry but this whole thing confuses me immensely.  What the hell has it to do with the US, run by people who desecrated the indigineous population of America in their pursuit of claiming land they had no right to for one thing.  Secondly, let the people decide as all persons concerned have a point of view.  Let it go to a vote.  What do the people want, not the US, ignore them, they still have ghettos in the South despite all their bravado in the 1990's about aparteid, so tell them to clean up their own garden......

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## Homsa

> Ну, посмотрим на реакцию "зелёных человечков"...

 Troll mode on…
Снайперы такая удобная штука... 
Ну во первых – снайпер всегда вражеский. Ну очевидно же. 
Во вторых – хорошего снайпера не видно. Если снайпера видно – то просто это кто-то пытается промыть хомячкам мозги. Мы то знаем что снайпер – настоящий профессионал. Наемник естественно. 
В третьих – результатам официальных расследований верить нельзя. Потому что во первых и во вторых. Но полученных из интернета данных достаточно для того чтобы узнать правду. Ну во первых же. 
Мне иногда кажется что их и нет на самом деле. А есть только симулякр для деперсонификации убийств. Вроде людей кто то убил, а виноват абстрактный злой «некто». Всем все ясно. Все довольны.
Troll mode off…

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## Crocodile

Well, unfortunately, it is all very controversial.. You see, the Crimean referendum was boycotted by about 15% of the Crimean population (of which the dominant part were the Crimean Tatars loyal to the central power in Kiev). As a result, there's not a slim chance for the Crimean Tatar terrorirsm [supported by whom?] becoming a reality.. Besides, the US is the leader of NATO and guess who just missed their chance to deploy their troops closer to Russia.. Why won't they be upset? Also, Russia and the EU already almost got their peace with each other [and the stocks went up]. Both Russia and the EU are economic rivals of each other but also guess of whom?  ::

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## Crocodile

> Мне иногда кажется что их и нет на самом деле. А есть только симулякр для деперсонификации убийств. Вроде людей кто то убил, а виноват абстрактный злой «некто». Всем все ясно. Все довольны.

 А если что-то с чем-то не клеится, то снайперов можно умножать. При таком раскладе, вообще непонятно, кто в кого стрелял и за что. Интерпретация выбирается произвольно исходя из личных преференций.

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## Homsa

> Интерпретация выбирается произвольно исходя из личных преференций.

  ::

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## Basil77

> This has already been proven to be BS - the myth that Svoboda and company are 'nazis' - maybe faux nazis.   Jewish leaders have been on record defending them.   But, of course, you are selective with your sources like the rest of the neo-Soviet BS-ers.

 I don't give a slightest fvck about "Jewish leaders" you mentioned and their opinion. I know that Svoboda IS nazis, and their nazism turned mainly towards Russians. I know it from my personal expirience.

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## Twonkybot

Sorry could someone explain please, do the Russians or the Crimean people want to unite?  Or is this just a governmental power struggle?

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## Paul G.

> Sorry could someone explain please, do the Russians or the Crimean people want to unite?  Or is this just a governmental power struggle?

 Twonkybot, it seems you live in informational vacuum.
I hope you know (or don't?) that the referendum about consolidation is finished. Results of this referendum: attendance is 83.01%, 97.47% of the people of Crimea voted for the uniting. More information (Russian): Референдум о статусе Крыма (2014)
I know it's hard to believe that Russian people can do something different, unlike European propaganda has been portraying them for the last 500 years.

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## Crocodile

> Sorry could someone explain please, do the Russians or the Crimean people want to unite?  Or is this just a governmental power struggle?

 I think it is all very complex. The Crimeans are about 60 per cent ethnic Russians, 15 percent Crimean Tatars, 20 percent Ukrainians and 5 percent other ethnic groups. The Crimean Tatars are the native peoples of Crimea, but the peninsula has a history of several hundred years being part of the Russian Empire. In 1944 the Tatars were deported en mass into the remote regions of Central Asia as a collective punishment by the Soviet regime which the Tatars strongly associate with Russians. Only in 1991 the Tatars were allowed to repatriate to Crimea which at that time became part of Ukraine. So, the Crimean Tatars do not want to become part of Russia because they strongly associate Russians with the oppression and the genocide. At the same time, the rest of the population are influenced by the two major driving forces: the economic (Russia is a way richer country than Ukraine) and cultural (the majority strongly associate themselves with Russian language and culture). At the same time, Crimea has a long history of their local interests being ignored by the central government in Kiev and the Crimean autonomy only exists on paper. So, part of Crimeans prefer being in Russia to being in Ukraine and the other part the other way around. Hope it clarifies..

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## Lampada

*Charlie Rose | charlierose.com*  _Tom Friedman and David Sanger of the New York Times discuss the ongoing crisis in Ukraine._   
Интересно послушать.  Взвешенный и честный анализ международной обстановки на сегодняшний день.

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## Hanna

> Today it’s all over. Crimea IS part of the Russian Federation from now on. All my foresights on this and other “Ukrainian” threads have come true so far. 
> Hereby, I solemnly but humbly declare myself The Great Oracle: Diogenes the Wisest or in Russian- Великий Оракул: Диоген Премудрый.

 You predicted before New Years, in the Ukraine thread, that Ukraine would lose Crimea to Russia?

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## UhOhXplode

> I think it is all very complex. The Crimeans are about 60 per cent ethnic Russians, 15 percent Crimean Tatars, 20 percent Ukrainians and 5 percent other ethnic groups. The Crimean Tatars are the native peoples of Crimea, but the peninsula has a history of several hundred years being part of the Russian Empire. In 1944 the Tatars were deported en mass into the remote regions of Central Asia as a collective punishment by the Soviet regime which the Tatars strongly associate with Russians. Only in 1991 the Tatars were allowed to repatriate to Crimea which at that time became part of Ukraine. So, the Crimean Tatars do not want to become part of Russia because they strongly associate Russians with the oppression and the genocide. At the same time, the rest of the population are influenced by the two major driving forces: the economic (Russia is a way richer country than Ukraine) and cultural (the majority strongly associate themselves with Russian language and culture). At the same time, Crimea has a long history of their local interests being ignored by the central government in Kiev and the Crimean autonomy only exists on paper. So, part of Crimeans prefer being in Russia to being in Ukraine and the other part the other way around. Hope it clarifies..

 Just one thing to add:   

> Until the late 18th century, Crimean Tatars maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. About 2 million slaves from Russia and Ukraine were sold over the period 1500–1700. Tatars were known for frequent, at some periods almost annual, devastating raids on the Slavic peoples to the north. In 1769 a last major Tatar raid, which took place during the Russo-Turkish War, saw the capture of 20,000 slaves.

 Also, those raids included the killing of Orthodox Christians. Crimea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
What's being clarified for me in this crisis is how little concern the US has for Russia's needs and interests. If I had that little concern for my friends' interests, I wouldn't have any friends.
There will be a lot of difficulties for the Crimean people but they seem to be adjusting to the new situation. Crimea becomes more Russian by the hour - The Washington Post 
But imo, this is only the beginning. I predict there will be more annexations and/or referendums happening soon.  

> Gorbachev added that the referendum set an example for people in Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine, who also should decide their fate.

 http://news.yahoo.com/putin-approves...074249071.html

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## Twonkybot

I have been in a bit of a vacuum recently unfortunately due to having been in a car accident, so I also have alot of catching up to do!  ::  
It seems to me that most nations can point to a time in their history when they wronged others and there comes a time when people need to try and put that behind them rather than letting that rule every future decision.   
Doesn't the result of the referendum speak for itself?  Surely that is a democratic action and therefore uniting a democratic result. 
I'm still confused why a country like the US, who has a rather brutal history itself and rarely democratically decide anything, have any right in speaking out against anything.

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## Ramil

The true face of the EU:  Van Rompuy cancels Russia trip to meet Putin: diplomat &mdash; EUbusiness 
In two words, European Council president Herman Van Rompuy wanted to visit Russia and get a first-hand information about Russian positions.
Now he cancels his visit, because (those bloody) "Russians made it (this mission) *public*." Transparency in such delicate matters can only do harm, no doubt.
Apparently nobody in EU really wants to hear anything that contradicts their official line. Great diplomatic efforts, Mr. Van Rompuy! Applause to EU!

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## Antonio1986

> The true face of the EU:  Van Rompuy cancels Russia trip to meet Putin: diplomat — EUbusiness 
> In two words, European Council president Herman Van Rompuy wanted to visit Russia and get a first-hand information about Russian positions.
> Now he cancels his visit, because (those bloody) "Russians made it (this mission) *public*." Transparency in such delicate matters can only do harm, no doubt.
> Apparently nobody in EU really wants to hear anything that contradicts their official line. Great diplomatic efforts, Mr. Van Rompuy! Applause to EU!

 Given that my country is part of EU I would like to mention that EU countries do not have a *common foreign policy* or a *common defence policy* (i.e. the decisions should be taken unanimously). 
And that guy, who presumably represents EU in reality represents just particular interests of particular countries (Germany not included).
Cyprus is *against sanctions* and respects the cultural, religion, historical and economical relationships with Russia, even if it is a divided country (with serious political problems), with the worst economical position in EU and of course 100% dependence on EU and IMF funds:   Кипр против санкций в отношении  
Russia had the historical right to annex Krym.
Also based on the Realpolitik *Russians* of Ukraine (or of any other country of the region) cannot live in a counrtry that belongs to NATO. It doesn't make sense. 
NATO should have been destroyed when the Warsaw Pact collapsed. The continuation of it's existence means that it stills consider Russia as a potential threat. 
My opinion.

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## Twonkybot

I think it is shame that the US and EU, and yes I will put the UK to some extent in that pot believe that they have some sort of right to meddle in other nations affairs.  In my humble opinion it has absolutely nothing to do with us at all and is a matter for the Crimean people mainly. 
Unfortunately the US have not been happy since the lack of support shown with regards to their intentions in the Syrian crisis which I am glad our government allowed to go to a vote even though the result was not what they wanted as they wanted to support the US.  Gladly the people won. 
Unfortunately anyone as you say who doesn't tow the US line mainly, as in my humble opinion again the EU are generally just minions to the US, becomes an enemy to be discredited. 
I would like to say on behalf of all intelligent, thinking people in the UK, we are not so susceptable to the insidious nature of propaganda these days.  ::

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## Ramil

> I would like to say on behalf of all intelligent, thinking people in the UK

 How many of you are there?  ::    

> , we are not so susceptable to the insidious nature of propaganda these days.

 Well, finally  ::

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## Hanna

> I'm still confused why a country like the US, who has a rather brutal history itself and rarely democratically decide anything, have any right in speaking out against anything.

 Well my friend, you haven't watched enough BBC, or CNN, lately, obviously! 
And you need to listen to what William Hague and Catherine Ashton have to say.
If the USA says it's right, then it's right, never mind precedence, history or common logic. 
Pick up the Daily Telegraph, it will explain all......

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## Twonkybot

LOL...the tabloids & reporting are the propaganda!!  It doesn't necessarily represent the view of the masses.  
If they did we wouldn't have won the decision not to get involved in Syria in the way that the US (and incidentally our own government) were attempting to bully us into. 
You shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers!  ::  
By the way did you notice the trouncing the UK got in the tabloids after that decision and the subsequent attempts to make us feel guilty for it?  ::

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## Paul G.

By the way, there is a remarkable nuance. This process of uniting was named in the official documents as "reuniting" (воссоединение), not "uniting". So you should consider it only in that way.

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## UhOhXplode

> I have been in a bit of a vacuum recently unfortunately due to having been in a car accident, so I also have alot of catching up to do!  
> It seems to me that most nations can point to a time in their history when they wronged others and there comes a time when people need to try and put that behind them rather than letting that rule every future decision.   
> Doesn't the result of the referendum speak for itself?  Surely that is a democratic action and therefore uniting a democratic result. 
> I'm still confused why a country like the US, who has a rather brutal history itself and rarely democratically decide anything, have any right in speaking out against anything.

 I hope the accident wasn't too serious.
Btw, I only added the history of Crimean Tatar raids into Russia as a possible explanation for the distrust that led to their exile. 
This is interesting. The shots that killed both the pro-Russian and the Ukrainian soldier in Crimea yesterday were fired from the same location by a sniper. They also believe that the sniper's a member of the "Right Sector". *cough cough* the snipers on the Maidan *cough cough*.  Задержан один из симферопольских снайперов &mdash; Петр Лихоманов &mdash;

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## Twonkybot

Quite serious in that an articulated lorry tried to write me off but I've been VERY lucky and now just have a residual hip problem, but a bit of pain and immobility is better than being dead in my book!  ::  LOL 
Most of the threads here in the UK are pretty much against the US and those in our own government who have decided to try and speak for us.  I think there is still a residual mistrust of Putin himself but William Hague definitely DOESN'T speak for the masses here.   
It's quite comical that the US called the Russian Federation land grabbers.  We have a saying here in the UK 'pot calling the kettle black' which fits our view of it all quite well.   ::

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## Hanna

> William Hague definitely DOESN'T speak for the masses here.

 He ought to, right, isn't he a democratically elected MP? 
No but seriously, they talk about issues with democracy in Russia. Sure whatever, but I doubt it's any worse than the UK. Two near identical parties to vote for, and after they're elected they do whatever they like anyway. Including running the errands for big corporations and tagging onto American wars that most Brits realise are wrong in every way. 
Anyway, hope you are feeling better!

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## UhOhXplode

> Quite serious in that an articulated lorry tried to write me off but I've been VERY lucky and now just have a residual hip problem, but a bit of pain and immobility is better than being dead in my book!  LOL 
> Most of the threads here in the UK are pretty much against the US and those in our own government who have decided to try and speak for us.  I think there is still a residual mistrust of Putin himself but William Hague definitely DOESN'T speak for the masses here.   
> It's quite comical that the US called the Russian Federation land grabbers.  We have a saying here in the UK 'pot calling the kettle black' which fits our view of it all quite well.

  ::  It's awesome that you survived that! Never trust huge trucks. I got slammed by a small truck last year but it only knocked me into someone's yard and I wasn't hurt. It was like flying, lol.  ::  Still kinda scary and I lost my bike. 
It's important to remember who's pushing the foreign policies in the west... the governments. There are people here that don't agree with what the US is doing in Ukraine (including me and my family) but nobody in Washington DC would ever listen to us. They only listen to other politicians and huge corporations. 
Btw, you're right about the land grabbing thing. All the US land grabbing and invasions keeps a lot of people nervous here. I mean yeah, there are times when the US has to defend it's interests but I don't get how the US could have any really important interests in Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, or Syria. It just doesn't click and I haven't seen anything in the media that really explains it. Also, I don't like the idea of "world police". Why should it be our responsibility to police the world? I think the world would be better if it just policed itself.

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## 14Russian

> I don't give a slightest fvck about "Jewish leaders" you mentioned and their opinion.

 Obviously.

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## Twonkybot

William Hague is an elected MP of one of the around 650 constituencies across the UK for whom he is supposed to represent the opinion of around 80,000 of the UK's popualtion who live in that one area. 
He is in the news due to his job as Foreign Secretary in the Cabinet and I believe it's the Priminister and his advisors etc. who chose the Cabinet members.   
What he states as Foreign Secretary is therefore towing the Cabinet line for the nation and therefore not necessarily the opinion of the nation OR in fact his constituency members. 
This is why although the Cabinet were mostly in favour of joining the US in the Syrian crisis when it was put to a vote in the Commons each one that was an MP were representing a relatively small percentage of the the population with the majority of the other MP's representing their own constituencies voting against. 
That is how basically it is possible for a decision to be made by the populous against Government preferences. 
I think that is sort of how it works anyway in my simplistic brain and how we make a vain attempt at democracy in the UK, but that is obviously as long as it goes to a vote! ;-D LOL 
I think you are right, there isn't alot between any government representative to be honest as it's rather like a game of Risk!  ::

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## Twonkybot

> Why should it be our responsibility to police the world? I think the world would be better if it just policed itself.

 Totally agree!  I've just been on a thread in the UK in which only one person has started saying what we need to do etc. and the rest of us have just said 'Why is it any of our business and who made us judge and jury'.

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## it-ogo

> Why should it be our responsibility to police the world? I think the world would be better if it just policed itself.

 You have a point. Though what about keeping promices? After the collapse of USSR Ukraine got rid of its part of Soviet nuclear weapon. USA instead officially guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders. USA disarmed us for the promice to protect. Now the promice looks broken.

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## Ramil

Yeah, USA's breaking promices. This is unheard of!

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## Crocodile

> Btw, I only added the history of Crimean Tatar raids into Russia as a possible explanation for the distrust that led to their exile.

 Hmm.. I wouldn't immediately agree with that. The Soviet regime at some point in its time used to displace peoples for various reasons, so the real reason remains uknown.  Population transfer in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
 I suspect the historical relationship [of several hunded years ago] between the Crimean Tatars and Slavs were probably the least important in the list of the reasons. 
Besides, what nation have never traded slaves in their history?  ::  
Culturally, the Crimean Tatars strongly associate themselves with Turkey, so if given a chance they would do anything they could to become part of Turkey again.

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## Crocodile

> You have a point. Though what about keeping promices? After the collapse of USSR Ukraine got rid of its part of Soviet nuclear weapon. USA instead officially guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders. USA disarmed us for the promice to protect. Now the promice looks broken.

 "_Some good questions
have no good answers."_ 
                                            Svensei

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## Hanna

> You have a point. Though what about keeping promices? After the collapse of USSR Ukraine got rid of its part of Soviet nuclear weapon. USA instead officially guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders. USA disarmed us for the promice to protect. Now the promice looks broken.

 The USA also officially promised not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, a promise which they broke pretty much immediately after having made it.  
I don't see how nukes would make any difference in this conflict anyway. But it's rather disturbing that some people seem to think it's worth bringing up.  
From one thing to another. Apparently Russia is going to significantly increase the measly state pensions that old people on Crimea are receiving. I don't see how they can survive on 200 USD per month it seems absolutely impossible unless you have no rent and buy nothing apart from cheap groceries. I was glad to see they  will get more money and it's nice that Russia is processing this fast.

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## Crocodile

> Apparently Russia is going to significantly increase the measly state pensions that old people on Crimea are receiving. I don't see how they can survive on 200 USD per month it seems absolutely impossible unless you have no rent and buy nothing apart from cheap groceries. I was glad to see they  will get more money and it's nice that Russia is processing this fast.

 You see, it's yes and no situation. If you hand out money to people, the first thing to happen is the prices will go up. That would probably be it more or less.  ::  
The real improvement of economy would usually corellate with the improvement in infrastructure which will give a chance to people to produce goods and services. Right now, the infrastructure in Crimea is more or less limited to the seasonal rentals of apartments to the visitors. Maybe also selling some food and stuff the visitors would need for their stay. There is virtually no other popular way of making money. Ukraine was never interested in improving the infrastructure in Crimea and Russia might be able to fill that gap to show the rest of the world what Russia is capable of. (Who mentioned Sochi?)  ::

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## Paul G.

Hanna, he (it-ogo) still doesn't understand that the "project Ukraine" is closed. Well, at least the real leaders are arguing about its future (will it be closed or maybe one may give a second chance this fail state under Russian protectorate). Ukraine has never had own responsible elites, there were only thieves, clowns and crystal-clear fools that represent Ukrainian politicum. As we can see, for the last 20 years they learnt to jump together shouting "Кто не скачет - тот москаль" and that's all.

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## Ramil

I have a question too, how long these outraged 'civilized people' will remain outraged? How soon the first 'Hilton' or 'Radisson' will appear in Crimea?

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## Hanna

> Hanna, he (it-ogo) still doesn't understand that the "project Ukraine" is closed. Well, at least the real leaders are arguing about its future (will it be closed or maybe one may give a second chance this fail state under Russian protectorate). Ukraine has never had own responsible elites, there were only thieves, clowns and crystal-clear fools that represent Ukrainian politicum. As we can see, for the last 20 years they learnt to jump together shouting "Кто не скачет - тот москаль" and that's all.

 This is about his country, of course he is upset. Absolutely everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong with this revolution, from the perspective of a decent and patriotic (but not nazi) Ukrainian.  
From a Ukrainian perspective, Russia's behaviour is extremely opportunistic and like a bully, taking advantage of superior strength in a weak moment of the republic. Ukraina could never do the same thing against Russia, and there is plenty of history where Russia has not treated Ukraine very well. I happen to think that Ukraine brought this upon itself, but that doesn't change the fact.  
It-Ogo explained that he changed his position the moment it became clear to him that there were Russian troops operating on Ukrainian soil, because this crossed as line for him. I think that's a logical perspective. 
Although I have a different viewpoint based on how I see the situation, and because I have an axe to grind with EU / USA, I still totally sympathise with the way he feels.  
Who with the slightest amount of patriotism wouldn't be extremely upset at the mere thought of foreign troops on their soil, REGARDLESS of any mitigating circumstances...?  _(well apart from brainwashed Western Europeans who think it's normal to have US bases on their soil decade after decade -  yes, talking about Brits, Germans, Italians & co. ) _ 
Plus it takes courage to stand up and keep defending  your viewpoint the way he has done.  
It seems to me that Crimea is a done deal so I am starting a new thread about Eastern Ukraine.

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## UhOhXplode

> You have a point. Though what about keeping promices? After the collapse of USSR Ukraine got rid of its part of Soviet nuclear weapon. USA instead officially guaranteed Ukraine's territorial integrity and inviolability of its borders. USA disarmed us for the promice to protect. Now the promice looks broken.

 It's wrong to break promises but now Ukraine knows how much the US can be trusted. I'm strill trying to wrap my head around Ukraine giving up it's nuclear status. I wonder if Russia woulda invaded Crimea if Ukraine was still a nuclear power.   

> Hmm.. I wouldn't immediately agree with that. The Soviet regime at some point in its time used to displace peoples for various reasons, so the real reason remains uknown. Population transfer in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> I suspect the historical relationship [of several hunded years ago] between the Crimean Tatars and Slavs were probably the least important in the list of the reasons. 
> Besides, what nation have never traded slaves in their history? 
> Culturally, the Crimean Tatars strongly associate themselves with Turkey, so if given a chance they would do anything they could to become part of Turkey again.

 Thanks for the link. It was just a thought. Even several hundred years doesn't always erase everything. Native Americans still live here on reservations and they have their own laws.   

> The USA also officially promised not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe, a promise which they broke pretty much immediately after having made it. 
> I don't see how nukes would make any difference in this conflict anyway. But it's rather disturbing that some people seem to think it's worth bringing up. 
> From one thing to another. Apparently Russia is going to significantly increase the measly state pensions that old people on Crimea are receiving. *I don't see how they can survive on 200 USD per month* it seems absolutely impossible unless you have no rent and buy nothing apart from cheap groceries. I was glad to see they  will get more money and it's nice that Russia is processing this fast.

 $200 USD per month? That's just fun money. Are prices that much lower in Ukraine? I don't think they are much lower in Russia because we were looking at ads for houses with indoor pools and the prices were about the same in the US and Moscow. People need a lot more than $200 to live on.

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## UhOhXplode

> This is about his country, of course he is upset. Absolutely everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong with this revolution, from the perspective of a decent and patriotic (but not nazi) Ukrainian. 
> From a Ukrainian perspective, Russia's behaviour is extremely opportunistic and like a bully, taking advantage of superior strength in a weak moment of the republic. Ukraina could never do the same thing against Russia, *and there is plenty of history where Russia has not treated Ukraine very well.* I happen to think that Ukraine brought this upon itself, but that doesn't change the fact. 
> It-Ogo explained that he changed his position the moment it became clear to him that there were Russian troops operating on Ukrainian soil, because this crossed as line for him. I think that's a logical perspective.
> Although I have a different viewpoint based on how I see the situation, and because I have an axe to grind with EU / USA, I still totally sympathise with the way he feels. 
> Who with the slightest amount of patriotism wouldn't be extremely upset at the mere thought of foreign troops on their soil, REGARDLESS of any mitigating circumstances...?  _(well apart from brainwashed Western Europeans who think it's normal to have US bases on their soil decade after decade -  yes, talking about Brits, Germans, Italians & co. ) _ 
> Plus it takes courage to stand up and keep defending  your viewpoint the way he has done. 
> It seems to me that Crimea is a done deal so I am starting a new thread about Eastern Ukraine.

 Don't forget, Ukraine has a long history of Russian and European intervention that starts with Oleg of Novgorod conquering Kiev, in 882, to create Kievan Rus'. Since then, Russia has fought with Poland and Lithuania, Germany, and Austria (to name a few) in west/east land grabs that were still happening when the October Revolution began. I think the west half was still under Polish control during WW2 and there were more than 4 Ukrainian States at that time. So it wasn't just Russia that wanted Ukraine.

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## Hanna

> $200 USD per month? That's just fun money. Are prices that much lower in Ukraine? I don't think they are much lower in Russia because we were looking at ads for houses with indoor pools and the prices were about the same in the US and Moscow. People need a lot more than $200 to live on.

 Well maybe you looked at properties marketed at foreigners? I was travelling in that region, and I realised after a while that anything that's translated into English essentially means there is an added 1/3 or sometimes more,  to the price, seriously. Or anything that's aimed at Westerners too, or rich locals or Russians. I certainly wasn't looking for villas with a swimmingpool!  
I wouldn't presume to know this, but I think there are some VERY cheap flats for rent in the ex USSR area. Some people bought their flats for next to nothing and are now living in properties they own but have no mortgage on. So that's great for for them, and their budget. I met a few people in Belarus who told me that they were living on 800-1000 a month (and were unhappy about it). But there, a lot of things are state subsidized and they wouldn't pay the "real" price for it. Don't think that happens in Ukraine. Just listening to all the discussions about gas price in Ukraine, I am getting the impression that it is make or break for a large part of the population. In the UK they just practically doubled the gas price a while back, but it only affected the very poor seriously. Everybody else could absorb the difference.  
I think a lot of people in Ukraine are living very much on the brink of poverty and the it's not easy for many to get a good stable job. You might have hoped that 22 years AFTER the USSR, people would be better off, not worse, but I think for many the situation is quite the opposite and they really have a very dire situation. I read that many millions of Ukrainians are working in Russia because they simply can't get a half decently paying job in the Ukraine. I can't even imagine, how hard that would be.

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## maxmixiv

> $200 USD per month? That's just fun money. Are prices that much lower in Ukraine? I don't think they are much lower in Russia because we were looking at ads for houses with indoor pools and the prices were about the same in the US and Moscow. People need a lot more than $200 to live on.

 Pensions in Russia are just a bit higher. $270 they say, but the spread is huge as always.  Most people I know get the same $200.

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## UhOhXplode

> Well maybe you looked at properties marketed at foreigners? I was travelling in that region, and I realised after a while that anything that's translated into English essentially means there is an added 1/3 or sometimes more,  to the price, seriously. Or anything that's aimed at Westerners too, or rich locals or Russians. *I certainly wasn't looking for villas with a swimmingpool!*  
> I wouldn't presume to know this, but I think there are some VERY cheap flats for rent in the ex USSR area. Some people bought their flats for next to nothing and are now living in *properties they own but have no mortgage on.* So that's great for for them, and their budget. I met a few people in Belarus who told me that they were living on 800-1000 a month (and were unhappy about it). But there, a lot of things are state subsidized and they wouldn't pay the "real" price for it. Don't think that happens in Ukraine. Just listening to all the discussions about gas price in Ukraine, I am getting the impression that it is make or break for a large part of the population. In the UK they just practically doubled the gas price a while back, but it only affected the very poor seriously. Everybody else could absorb the difference.   *I think a lot of people in Ukraine are living very much on the brink of poverty* and the it's not easy for many to get a good stable job. You might have hoped that 22 years AFTER the USSR, people would be better off, not worse, but I think for many the situation is quite the opposite and they really have a very dire situation. I read that many millions of Ukrainians are working in Russia because they simply can't get a half decently paying job in the Ukraine. I can't even imagine, how hard that would be.

 I like to swim!  ::  You were right. I checked out 2 very similar 4 bedroom houses with pools here and near Moscow. The house here (2,495,000 USD) is an older house but the one near Moscow (only 456,309 USD) is modern. That's a huge difference in house prices. I found the Moscow house at a Russian real estate site and I converted rubles to dollars. And yeah, the last time I compared house prices I was checking out houses near Moscow at english sites and the prices were a lot higher.
Btw, it's always better to just pay cash for a house and not have a mortgage. The lawyers can settle the "lost interest" issues and dad said it's always a lot less than the interest they charge with a payment plan.
Not good, the Ukrainian poverty issue. Nobody should have to be poor.   

> Pensions in Russia are just a bit higher. $270 they say, but the spread is huge as always.  Most people I know get the same $200.

 I'm still thinking that prices in Russia must be lower because I don't understand how anybody could live with only $200 or $270 each month. But the only prices I've seen are for houses. I still need to learn more about prices for other stuff.

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## maxmixiv

> prices in Russia must be lower

 Lower than in U.S. you mean?
Well, electronics are more expensive in Russian, air tickets, cars.
While apartments (both to purchase and to keep) probably cheaper. (I don't know much about prices in U.S. ) 
My expenses for 50m*m flat are about $100 a month, but pensioners have discounts and can get along without Internet.
Groceries are on a par I believe.
Single ride by bus costs $.5 here, and for you?

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## Hanna

> Pensions in Russia are just a bit higher. $270 they say, but the spread is huge as always.  Most people I know get the same $200.

 Really - your grandparents live on $200 /month -per person? 
I'd like to know how they do that....

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## Crocodile

And, of course, both Russia and Ukraine are trying to win the hearts of the Crimean Tatars. After Ukraine lost Crimea, and after more than two decades of waiting, the Ukrainian Parliament had finally recognized the Mejlis!! Tada!! (Just after Putin made nice promices to the Tatars including the recognition of the Crimean Tatar language as one of the official languages of Crimea and representation in all state institutions of Crimea.) Isn't Ukraine a nice democratic country which fully respects the right of the aboriginal peoples and their right for the self-determination?  ::   http://www.unian.net/politics/898608...v-ukraine.html

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## gRomoZeka

I'm pretty annoyed with Ukraine's actions right now (to put it mildly). By insisting on declaring Crimea "an occupied territory", boosting national anti-Crimea hysteria, and threatening repeatedly with warfare, bans and whatnot it hurts not Russia but Crimeans, who are still Ukrainian citizens according to Ukrainian government. 
Crimea is indeed in a very vulnerable position economically and geographically, and this situation should be handled with extreme care. The fact that the government seems to be perfectly willing to destroy it not to "give it away" bothers me.

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## Crocodile

> this situation should be handled with extreme care

 I think had the situation been handled with care, not even the extreme care, but just any type of care, Crimea would still be part of Ukraine with well-defined autonomy. Meaning, the power to issue laws (within the limits set by Ukrainian Constitution) and enforce them on their territory. Based on what I know about Crimea, joining Russian Federation is the less of the evils. Sure enough, now the Crimean channel is happy to broadcast the perfectly happy new Russian citizens 'who just found their way home', but in reality it was not that simple. Still, based on the information I get from Crimea, Russian-speaking population voted almost unanimously to be part of Russia, so that was not staged. 
Громозека, рад тебя видеть.  ::

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## it-ogo

> I'm pretty annoyed with Ukraine's actions right now (to put it mildly). By insisting on declaring Crimea "an occupied territory", boosting national anti-Crimea hysteria, and threatening repeatedly with warfare, bans and whatnot it hurts not Russia but Crimeans, who are still Ukrainian citizens according to Ukrainian government. 
> Crimea is indeed in a very vulnerable position economically and geographically, and this situation should be handled with extreme care. The fact that the government seems to be perfectly willing to destroy it not to "give it away" bothers me.

 That was inevitable and predictable. That is the problem of pluralistic societies. No politician is independent enough to make a responcible decision. That was shockingly painful strike on the national consciousness, hysteria was inevitable and politicians just flow in the current. Mr. Poo at once successfully made us degrade almost to the moral level of Russian society. That is the way geopolitics works.

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## Crocodile

> [...] degrade almost to the moral level of Russian society.

 Very nice.  ::

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## it-ogo

> Very nice.

 A reference to my signature.

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## gRomoZeka

Крокодил, взаимно!  ::   

> Mr. Poo at once successfully made us degrade almost to the moral level of Russian society. That is the way geopolitics works.

 "If they respect you, respect them. If they disrespect you, still respect them. Do not allow the actions of others to decrease your good manners, because *you represent yourself, not others*." (_Mohammad Zeyara_) 
I admit that that advice is a bit too idealistic, still I'd say it's not Putin's fault if some Ukrainians behave like animals. It's their own choice. As for the stupidity of our lawmakers...  I'm at a loss for words.

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## it-ogo

> "If they respect you, respect them. If they disrespect you, still respect them. Do not allow the actions of others to decrease your good manners, because *you represent yourself, not others*." (_Mohammad Zeyara_)

 My manners are my tools and my arts, Mohammad. There is a time to represent oneself and a time to express oneself, a time to collect stones and a time to throw them to the parrots. 
As for Ukrainian politicians, i'll keep my opinion of them to the voting cabin, not to the international forum.

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## Basil77

Putin's speech:   

> Federation Council members, State Duma deputies, good afternoon. Representatives of the Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol are here among us, citizens of Russia, residents of Crimea and Sevastopol! 
>     Dear friends, we have gathered here today in connection with an issue that is of vital, historic significance to all of us. A referendum was held in Crimea on March 16 in full compliance with democratic procedures and international norms. 
>     More than 82 percent of the electorate took part in the vote. Over 96 percent of them spoke out in favour of reuniting with Russia. These numbers speak for themselves. 
>     To understand the reason behind such a choice it is enough to know the history of Crimea and what Russia and Crimea have always meant for each other. 
>     Everything in Crimea speaks of our shared history and pride. This is the location of ancient Khersones, where Prince Vladimir was baptised. His spiritual feat of adopting Orthodoxy predetermined the overall basis of the culture, civilisation and human values that unite the peoples of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus. The graves of Russian soldiers whose bravery brought Crimea into the Russian empire are also in Crimea. This is also Sevastopol – a legendary city with an outstanding history, a fortress that serves as the birthplace of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet. Crimea is Balaklava and Kerch, Malakhov Kurgan and Sapun Ridge. Each one of these places is dear to our hearts, symbolising Russian military glory and outstanding valour. 
>     Crimea is a unique blend of different peoples’ cultures and traditions. This makes it similar to Russia as a whole, where not a single ethnic group has been lost over the centuries. Russians and Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars and people of other ethnic groups have lived side by side in Crimea, retaining their own identity, traditions, languages and faith. 
>     Incidentally, the total population of the Crimean Peninsula today is 2.2 million people, of whom almost 1.5 million are Russians, 350,000 are Ukrainians who predominantly consider Russian their native language, and about 290,000-300,000 are Crimean Tatars, who, as the referendum has shown, also lean towards Russia. 
>     True, there was a time when Crimean Tatars were treated unfairly, just as a number of other peoples in the USSR. There is only one thing I can say here: millions of people of various ethnicities suffered during those repressions, and primarily Russians. 
>     Crimean Tatars returned to their homeland. I believe we should make all the necessary political and legislative decisions to finalise the rehabilitation of Crimean Tatars, restore them in their rights and clear their good name. 
> ...

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## UhOhXplode

> Lower than in U.S. you mean?
> Well, electronics are more expensive in Russian, air tickets, cars.
> While apartments (both to purchase and to keep) probably cheaper. (I don't know much about prices in U.S. ) 
> My expenses for 50m*m flat are about $100 a month, but pensioners have discounts and can get along without Internet.
> Groceries are on a par I believe.
> Single ride by bus costs $.5 here, and for you?

 You know more about prices and wages than I do. Dad pays the bills and mom buys the groceries and stuff. Even when I go shopping it's paid for with credit and I never remember how much anything costs. But I do remember that a 591 ml bottle of 7-up costs about $2.00 USD and a single serving can of smoked oysters is about $8.00 USD. But that was at a sandwich shop, not a grocery store. I really need to start looking at prices and make a list. I'll let you know what I learn.
I've never been on a bus so I googled it. Everywhere I go is in a car or a plane (if it's a long trip). Btw, I googled gas prices too. METRO TRANSIT - NORMAN Norman, OK Lowest Regular Gas Prices - GasPriceWatch.com 
I wish I could be more helpful but I don't work (except some chores at home) and I never deal with money issues. 
Oh, and I also remember that dad got me 300 blank Sony DVD's for about 200 USD and my new 23" Acer monitor was about 300 USD. 
Btw. the Federation Council has ratified the Bill to admit Crimea into Russia! There was only 1 "No" vote in the Lower Parliament and the vote of the Federation Council was unanimous!  Совфед одобрил закон о вхождении Крыма и Севастополя в состав  ITAR-TASS: Russia - Russian Federation Council ratifies treaty on Crimea’s entry to Russia

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## 14Russian

> Hanna, he (it-ogo) still doesn't understand that the "project Ukraine" is closed. Well, at least the real leaders are arguing about its future (will it be closed or maybe one may give a second chance this fail state under Russian protectorate). Ukraine has never had own responsible elites, there were only thieves, clowns and crystal-clear fools that represent Ukrainian politicum. As we can see, for the last 20 years they learnt to jump together shouting "Кто не скачет - тот москаль" and that's all.

 "Responsible elites?"   LOL!    Oh, is that what you call them in Russia?  ::  
Also, can you talk about more trade with Asia and how that benefits Russia?   Who do you think will have the surplus?   I want to read your answer... haha

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## Hanna

> "Responsible elites?"   LOL!    Oh, is that what you call them in Russia?  
> Also, can you talk about more trade with Asia and how that benefits Russia?   Who do you think will have the surplus?   I want to read your answer... haha

 Your arrogance is absolutely gobsmacking. Are you actually coming to this forum to teach Russians about THEIR country? Because only you are clever enough to see "the truth" without being a native speaker of the language, or living there! Your behaviour is embarrassing. Pull yourself together.

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## 14Russian

> Your arrogance is absolutely gobsmacking. Are you actually coming to this forum to teach Russians about THEIR country? Because only you are clever enough to see "the truth" without being a native speaker of the language, or living there! Your behaviour is embarrassing. Pull yourself together.

 Blah, blah, blah.... go back to asking your questions pretending you have a genuine interest.    I was talking about simple economics which you probably don't know about either.   Stop replying to my posts.   Your phony self-righteousness is annoying.  ::

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## gRomoZeka

Новая инициатива наших политиков  ::  За поездку в Крым без разрешения можно получить 9 лет тюрьмы | vesti.ua

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## Crocodile

Yup, another historic decision of the 'temporary government'. How those people actually believe they can do it? Do we need a new Maidan to do something with the outcome of this Maidan? Like I said earlier: evolution instead of revolution. Revolution can only replace bad government with very bad government.  ::  
But, we've all heard it-ogo, Russia is now responsible for everything bad happening in Ukraine, not those who seeded the wind and wonder why they harvest the storm.  ::

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## it-ogo

> But, we've all heard it-ogo, Russia is now responsible for everything bad happening in Ukraine, not those who seeded the wind and wonder why they harvest the storm.

 Yeah, I know. Rape victims are mostly responsible for being raped because of their bad behavior, provocative clothes and being too weak to resist. Every sane Russian citizen knows it for sure.

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## Crocodile

Well, Ukrainians who have business with Crimea, have property in Crimea, or relatives and friends in Crimea are now potential criminals. The analogy with the rape victims was just perfect. Oh wait! They aren't criminals until somebody is actually imprisioned or at least arrested! So, the existence of law in Ukraine does not mean anything according to it-ogo. Somebody has to be stupid enough to try and prove to all the law actually exists. I wonder..

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## Hanna

Look at this - quite unbelievable! 
The guy with the ponytail and expensive tie is apparently chairman of the committe for freedom of expression in Ukraine! His name is Igor Mirosjnitjenko. 
I don't really understand most of what they say (Ukrainian) but I think they are accusing the man with the grey tie (boss at a TV station) of being a separatist, not a real Ukrainian and then beat him up until he signs his own resignation.*    *

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## it-ogo

> Well, Ukrainians who have business with Crimea, have property in Crimea, or relatives and friends in Crimea are now potential criminals. The analogy with the rape victims was just perfect. Oh wait! They aren't criminals until somebody is actually imprisioned or at least arrested! So, the existence of law in Ukraine does not mean anything according to it-ogo. Somebody has to be stupid enough to try and prove to all the law actually exists. I wonder..

 Any country has a great collection of stupid laws that does not work. Strange laws and court precedents of USA is a genre classics.  And if we read some recent Russian laws we find even greater insanity incomparable to the Ukrainian one... Stop, no, bad example. Russian insane laws do actually work - in some cases when authorities find them useful. And they are real laws, not just projects.

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## Crocodile

Ok, it-ogo, let's wait for a first penguin to jump down the sea. If he's not eaten by an orca or a leopard seal we will jump too.

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## gRomoZeka

> Look at this - quite unbelievable! 
> The guy with the ponytail and expensive tie is apparently chairman of the committe for freedom of expression in Ukraine! His name is Igor Mirosjnitjenko. 
> I don't really understand most of what they say (Ukrainian) but I think they are accusing the man with the grey tie (boss at a TV station) of being a separatist, not a real Ukrainian and then beat him up until he signs his own resignation.

 Yeah, these are our new brave democratic leaders who took over a horrible dictator Yanukovich. Unfortunately, being "heroes of Maidan" they are virtually untouchable. Some Ukrainian politicians demanded this guy to be prosecuted or at least booted out of his Rada seat, but the chances of it are rather slim.
Recently he had an audacity to say something along the lines of "Oh, do stop mentioning this already. Better think of situation with Russia"... Um, ok...

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## Twonkybot

How about everyone fights for what is right and best for the majority?  An alien concept I know..but...what is best?   Only you who live there know the answer to that!  ::  xx

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## gRomoZeka

> How about everyone fights for what is right and  best for the majority? An alien concept I know..but...what is best? Only  you who live there know the answer to that! xx

 There's no  majority, it was roughly 50/50 in 2004 during Orange revolution, and the  only reason it won was because outside world supported it. I have no  idea what's exact percentage now, probably not much different.  
Ukraine  is very much divided into two parts politically and geographically, and  what is best for one is often worst for the other (or at least _the majority_  there thinks that), so no one wants to be a loser. Crimeans tried to  distance itself from this constant struggle by running off to another  country, but now Ukrainian government declared Crimea an "occupied  territory" with truly draconian punishments for collaborating with enemy  (Russia), prohibiting money transactions, seriously restricting  travelling, etc., so it kinda backfired. I hope they'll abolish these  crazy laws before they take root, though.

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## DDT

> The Soviet regime at some point in its time used to displace peoples for various reasons, so the real reason remains uknown.

 Don't be naive. We know the real reason. Because the tartars were  moslems who they sided with the NAZIS and Hitler, as the moslems of  Bosnia did also. 
There were entire Waffen SS Moslem legions all through the area. 
 The Moslem Grand Mufti of Jerusalem visited Hitler in Berlin and was  given his own Waffen SS Moslem legion to lead in Bosnia and they left a  record of slaughter amongst the Serbian Christians that will never be  forgotten. These Waffen SS legions were filth but Stalin was no better,  that's probably why they sided with Hitler. But once the Tartars got  their own Waffen SS units they committed unspeakable crimes and genocides all over the  region that is not often mentioned in the West. 
 So it wasn't  just that they were allies of Hitler but that they were responsible for  the horrendous acts while wearing the Nazi uniform. You can find the  stories if you want of how they went out at night hunting for people to  torture. They had contests of torturing Christians amongst each other.  Unbelievably, there is a story of a catholic priest that helped the  moslem nazis in Serbia do this and took part in the killing and the contests! Even  the German Nazi SS were horrified by what these criminals did. 
  These people escaped the Nuremberg trials but Stalin took care of them  in his own special way. Probably the only thing that Stalin did that had  a positive outcome.     nazi_fail_8.jpg
Moslem Nazis on their prayer mats.  muftinazi_muslim_troops_1.jpg
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem  inspecting his Moslem SS Division in Yugoslavia.

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## 14Russian

This post is for all you children.   I had a theory that Putinoids have digressed in age and maturity.   That would explain a lot of their behavior and mentality in posts.   The chauvinist attitudes and such.   The USA is bad, yes, and one can use examples of Syria and Iraq.   But, this seems to excuse Russia's actions.   Putin can do whatever he wants and the cheerleading is very loud here!   LOL  Ukraine crisis: Gunfire and grenades up the ante in Crimea showdown - World - CBC News 
What's the excuse here?   Firing shots in the air again?!?   Ooops...  a mistake....  darn... why do I always discharge... ooopsie!    Also, armored vehicles knocking down fences/gates.   Bad driving?   The brakes don't work?    I agree, the new Ukrainian gov't is a farce but not for what you are claiming although, in retrospect, the hostile takeover, while disposing another tyrannical government, seems too similar in scope.   The 'tough talk' is also foolish.   Who is Yatszee fooling?    Anyway, this 'protection of citizens' looks like another fraud, although, since it's Pootin, there's no question of ethics.    
There's too many group thinkers here and they get rattled when you illustrate hypocrisy.

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## Lampada

> This post is for all you children.   I had a theory that Putinoids have digressed in age and maturity.   That would explain a lot of their behavior and mentality in posts.   The chauvinist attitudes and such.   The USA is bad, yes, and one can use examples of Syria and Iraq.   But, this seems to excuse Russia's actions.   Putin can do whatever he wants and the cheerleading is very loud here!   LOL  Ukraine crisis: Gunfire and grenades up the ante in Crimea showdown - World - CBC News 
> What's the excuse here?   Firing shots in the air again?!?   Ooops...  a mistake....  darn... why do I always discharge... ooopsie!    Also, armored vehicles knocking down fences/gates.   Bad driving?   The brakes don't work?    I agree, the new Ukrainian gov't is a farce but not for what you are claiming although, in retrospect, the hostile takeover, while disposing another tyrannical government, seems too similar in scope.   The 'tough talk' is also foolish.   Who is Yatszee fooling?    Anyway, this 'protection of citizens' looks like another fraud, although, since it's Pootin, there's no question of ethics.    
> There's too many group thinkers here and they get rattled when you illustrate hypocrisy.

 Да успокойся ты уже.  Украина тебе ничего.  Приходишь сюда только злить и провоцировать.  И не надоест тебе.

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## Basil77

> Look at this - quite unbelievable! 
> The guy with the ponytail and expensive tie is apparently chairman of the committe for freedom of expression in Ukraine! His name is Igor Mirosjnitjenko. 
> I don't really understand most of what they say (Ukrainian) but I think they are accusing the man with the grey tie (boss at a TV station) of being a separatist, not a real Ukrainian and then beat him up until he signs his own resignation.*    *

 They got mad because TV channel showed Putin's speech (without any comments). Also the guy with ponytail previously worked as sport-commentator at Ukrainian TV and now he is a head of "freedom of speech" committee in Ukrainian parlament. This is how democracy values work in the new Ukraine government.

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## Hanna

Well it looks like Russia lost its G8 seat because of Crimea.  
I really don't know whether it matters or what the G8 does. 
But I noted that China isn't even a member, neither is India, South Korea, Spain, Canada,  Brazil. 
So G8 seems more like a club for the USA + European buddies and Japan.  
Another thing about this is that it seems Belarus is came out in support of Russia in this. What about Kazakhstan?

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## 14Russian

> Да успокойся ты уже.  Украина тебе ничего.  Приходишь сюда только злить и провоцировать.  И не надоест тебе.

 I don't come here to provoke unless you mean to provoke thinking.   Did you read the article?   No?   Probably didn't.    
In the forum, there are tons of messages by those in Russia or claiming to be Russians saying that Putin has done nothing wrong and disputed the UNIDENTIFIED soldiers firing shots and here is a recent article that proves they have shown force and threats - they also injured a Ukrainian serviceman.    
I also posted an article that has been confirmed by both Russians and Ukrainians I communicate with, who support the allegations in the article - of criminal recruits sent from Moscow to Ukraine (especially the Eastern part). 
Some Russians here have avoided the topic.   They are hypocrites and liars - so, I called them out.   Do you know the phrase, 'food for thought?'    Perhaps, people here might consider these arguments - it is an attempt to provoke thought and logic.   A good aim, right?

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## Paul G.

Surprise, surprise!  Argentina to Host Russian Military Bases While America Sleeps

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## Ramil

> In the forum, there are tons of messages by those in Russia or claiming to be Russians saying that Putin has done nothing wrong and disputed the UNIDENTIFIED soldiers firing shots and here is a recent article that proves they have shown force and threats - they also injured a Ukrainian serviceman.

 Хорошо, для тех, кто в танке, я повторю один единственный раз. По соглашению, подписанному между Украиной и Россией о размещении Черноморского флота, на территории Крыма может быть размещено до 25 тысяч человек личного состава. За весь период, начиная с момента, когда государство Украина (с кем было подписано это соглашение) прекратило своё существование, до момента объявления результатов референдума, количество российских военнослужащих в Крыму не превысило эту цифру.
So, it appears, Putin did nothing wrong indeed, despite the fact you feeling butthurt about it.

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## DrBaldhead



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## Lampada

Тема скатилась к взаимным оскорблениям. Закрывается на какое-то время.

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## Hanna

This is a VERY low tidemark of the EU.  *Punishing citizens in Crimea for not voting "correctly" in the referendum!*   

> BRUSSELS, March 25. /Itar -Tass/. *The European Union banned to issue  all kinds of European visas, including Schengen, to Crimeans* in the  embassies and in the visa centers of EU countries on Russian territory,  the press service of the European Commission reports.
>   "According to the decision of the European Council, the EU visa will  be issued only to residents of Crimea in Ukraine, because Crimea is a  part of this country (according to the Brussels)," noted in the EC. On  this basis, the diplomatic mission of the EU in Russia will not issue  the visas to the residents of Crimea in Russian passports.

 Since they can't get an EU visa in Russia, they probably won't be able to get it in Kiev either. 
So the EU essentially BANS Crimeans from the EU because they didn't vote the way the EU would have wanted in the referendum.  
How "democratic!" 
ps - note that there are some grammar mistakes in this quote itar-tass.

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## 14Russian

> Хорошо, для тех, кто в танке, я повторю один единственный раз. По соглашению, подписанному между Украиной и Россией о размещении Черноморского флота, на территории Крыма может быть размещено до 25 тысяч человек личного состава. За весь период, начиная с момента, когда государство Украина (с кем было подписано это соглашение) прекратило своё существование, до момента объявления результатов референдума, количество российских военнослужащих в Крыму не превысило эту цифру.
> So, it appears, Putin did nothing wrong indeed, despite the fact you feeling butthurt about it.

 "По соглашению, подписанному между Украиной и Россией о размещении Черноморского флота, на территории Крыма может быть размещено до 25 тысяч человек личного состава." 
So what?   I already explained what the problem was, not that they had an agreement.   'Butthurt?'    Please.

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## Suobig

Вполне может быть, что вся операция в Крыму была проведена по заранее разработанному плану на случай угрозы базе в Севастополе. Если это так, то это конечно серьезный провал разведки США, которая, судя по всему, никакой информации о подобном плане не имела. Либо была уверена, что руководство России не решится претворить его в жизнь. 
Законны ли были действия России? - Нет, незаконны.
Справедливо ли вышло по результату? - Да, справедливо. Вхождение Крыма в состав России - это торжество исторической справедливости в том виде, в котором я ее понимаю.

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## Hanna

Not sure if I understand you correctly Soubig. 
Yes, I think Russia had a number of military scenarios for taking Crimea. Obviously. This was very skillfully executed. Obviously they were at least partly following an existing script or a pre-planned approach. The only factor Russia couldn't control was Western Media and the statements of Western media, and sanctions. But if this was a poker game, Russia played the hand it was dealt extremely skillfully, for a prize it really badly wanted. A completely blood-free takeover.   
And yes, the way this was done by Russia, was sneaky towards Ukraine. It's understandable that Ukrainians are angry about it.  
However I still approve because 1) it was the will of the people in Crimea and 2) Ukraine allowed itself to once again be descend into chaos, and there was a coup d'etat, so the constitution was no longer valid. If Ukraine can't get its act together, then who can blame the Crimeans for searching for stability, better incomes and language guarantees with Russia.

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## Suobig

Извини. Но мы же договорились, что в политике будем параллельно учить русский (кстати, хороший стимул понять смысл написанного!  ::  ) А то я  бы  сам не против писать по-английски, чтобы попрактиковаться. 
По поводу санкций. Есть один момент, который за пределами России, как мне кажется, не очень хорошо понимают. У русских есть, выражаясь терминологией компьютерных игр, "special ability" — поразительная способность к мобилизации при наличии внешней угрозы. Примеров этому масса. Скажем, Россия смогла за примерно 10 лет — с 1930 по 1941 — создать промышленность, которая смогла на равных соперничать со *всей промышленностью всей континентальной Европы*. И это были не цифры статистики, не показатели ВВП — это было столкновение двух промышленностей в реальной войне с реальным победителем. 
Поэтому введение санкций против России и создание напряженности вокруг неё — это палка о двух концах ("double-edged sword").

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## Hanna

Очень важный вопрос!  ::   Я читала что София Ротару живёт в Ялте ... Будет ли она сменить гражданство?

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## it-ogo

> Очень важный вопрос!   Я читала что София Ротару живёт в Ялте ... Будет ли она сменить гражданство?

 Sofia Rotaru stopped her application for the Russian citizenship because of Putins aggression. She announced openly that she will not live in aggressor's country.

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## Hanna

> Sofia Rotaru stopped her application for the Russian citizenship because of Putins aggression. She announced openly that she will not live in aggressor's country.

 Wow! I read about her complicated ethnic/language background in gossip magazines etc, so I was wondering how she felt about all this. My mother really liked her. I was thinking she might already have Russian citizenship, actually, like dual passport. And I did not know she was a Ukrainian nationalist.   
Assuming the article is true, I think it speaks highly of her character, that she is prepared to upset (?) her Russian fans and supporters by standing up for what she believes in.  
I wonder what will happen in a situaton where a Crimean person doesn't want to change citizenship. 
Will they be stateless, like some of the Russians in the Baltic states, or able to remain as Ukrainian citizens with the same rights as others...? I guess time will tell.  
If the figures from the referendum are correct about 10-15% of adults there didn ot vote "Yes", so may not want to change their citizenship. I guess children are also affected. I hope Russia will make sure it doesn't create a  mirror image of the situation in the Baltics.

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## DrBaldhead

It was announced that those who doesn't want to adopt the Russian citizenship shall be allowed to continue living in Crimea without any fines.

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## it-ogo

Немножко информационной войны. А то что-то затихло.  Крымский татарин, похищенный оккупантами, погиб от ножевого ранения в глаз | Украинская правда 
Наивный крымский татарин решил устроить провокацию: выйти с плакатом против оккупации, получить пару раз в морду от "самообороны Крыма", заснять это на видео, "а потом про этот случай раструбят по бибиси". Обломался, однако. Вежливые люди в камуфляже вежливо увезли его на черной машине. А через 10 дней был найден труп со следами пыток. Это вам больше не фашистская Украина - здесь теперь порядок и стабильность.   

> Законны ли были действия России? - Нет, незаконны.
> Справедливо ли вышло по результату? - Да, справедливо.

 Ну да, всего лишь не надо было выпендриваться. А так - сам виноват.

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## Lampada

> ... А то что-то затихло. ...

 Говорила на днях с подружкой.  Она здесь, родители в Симферополе, на пенсии.  Мама - украинка, папа - русский.  Рассказывает, что крымские пенсионеры, конечно, повелись на б*о*льшую пенсию.  Наверное, большинство крымчан теперь ждут _манны небесной_ из России.

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## Crocodile

> Немножко информационной войны. А то что-то затихло.

 В этом видео - суть информационной войны. Первая интерпретация - оккупанты бесчинствуют. Пора восстанавливать справедливость. Вторая - активисты Правого ссектора  в камуфляже инсценировали похищение, а затем и убили наивного (или проплаченного, как хочешь) человека, задействованного в тёмную. Обрати внимание, что на вежливых людях на обоих ведео не заметно оружия. Т.е. можно предположить пистолеты и холодное оружие, но автоматического, как и подобает настоящим оккупантам, я не заметил. То есть это могут быть кто угодно. Вот тебе, батенька, и информационная война. Как сказал Рамиль, каждому лапшу на уши по вкусу его.

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## Crocodile

> Рассказывает, что крымские пенсионеры, конечно, повелись на б*о*льшую пенсию.  Наверное, большинство крымчан теперь ждут _манны небесной_ из России.

 Вот сволочи, правда?  ::

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## it-ogo

> В этом видео - суть информационной войны.

 Какое видео? Я видео не смотрю, ты же знаешь. Есть был конкретный человек с конкретными именем и фамилией и конкретными все еще живыми родственниками, который пошел в конкретное место с конкретным плакатом, откуда его увезли неопределенные люди. После чего был найден конкретный труп с конкретными следами пыток.  
Теперь можно либо обвинять его родственников (жену и брата) во лжи, либо принять эти факты и проинтерпретировать по-своему. Моя интерпретация была выше. Придумаешь что-нибудь хоть сколько-нибудь правдоподобное за другую сторону исходя из входных данных? Более правдоподобное, чем операция "активистов правого сектора" в Крыму. Сыграешь за адвоката дьявола? 
Впрочем можно и версию активистов обсудить - попунктно. Желаешь?

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## Lampada

> Вот сволочи, правда?

 Нет, обыкновенные, нормальные люди. Как и везде.

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## Lampada

_Майор Станислав Карачевский, который был убит в Крыму_   Светлая память, вечный покой.

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## Crocodile

> Какое видео? Я видео не смотрю, ты же знаешь.

 Ну, ты же сам дал ссылку. Там два видео, для правдоподобности. Мол, вот конкретные люди в камуфляже сажают в машину, посмотрите сами, мы ничего не придумываем, только голые факты.   

> откуда его увезли неопределенные люди.

 Дык, в этом же и вся разница! Ведь, если бы увезли, допустим, зелёные ящеры с хвостами, ты же не кивал бы на русских окупантов? Или, тебе без разницы кто увёз?   

> Придумаешь что-нибудь хоть сколько-нибудь правдоподобное за другую сторону исходя из входных данных? Более правдоподобное, чем операция "активистов правого сектора" в Крыму. Сыграешь за адвоката дьявола?

 При полном отсутствии ключевых исходных данных (=личность товарищей в камуфляже) можно навыдвигать любые версии. В этом и смысл информационной войны. Вот ещё одна: Решат задолжал крупную сумму местному криминальному авторитету и решил, что если он станет политактивистом, его побоятся тронуть, чтобы не переходить дорогу зелёным человечкам. А криминальные товарищи оделись в камуфляж и замочили Решата в лучших традициях за долги. Концов нет. Если кинуть клич про версии, мы тут тебе накидаем ещё штук 10 без проблем и все более-менее правдоподобные. Так, чтобы версия про оккупантов была лишь одной из многих. И чего?

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## it-ogo

> При полном отсутствии ключевых исходных данных (=личность товарищей в камуфляже) можно навыдвигать любые версии. В этом и смысл информационной войны. Вот ещё одна: Решат задолжал крупную сумму местному криминальному авторитету и решил, что если он станет политактивистом, его побоятся тронуть, чтобы не переходить дорогу зелёным человечкам. А криминальные товарищи оделись в камуфляж и замочили Решата в лучших традициях за долги. Концов нет. Если кинуть клич про версии, мы тут тебе накидаем ещё штук 10 без проблем и все более-менее правдоподобные. Так, чтобы версия про оккупантов была лишь одной из многих. И чего?

 Я киваю на тех, кто 
1. Полностью контролирует ситуацию в Крыму (возможность).
2. Кому выгодно, чтобы все было гладко и никто не рыпался (мотив).
3. Кто имеет характерный почерк (умиротворение Чечни). 
Так что как раз все ключевые пункты в нашем распоряжении есть, все три уникальны, а криминальный авторитет высосан из пальца и подразумевает маловероятные совпадения и привлечение лишних сущностей. 
Впрочем, мне бы лучше оставить говорить за себя Пауля. Лучшего антироссийского агитатора (своим примером) я не знаю. 
ПС Кстати, я наткнулся где-то на обсуждение того видео, которое ты мне подкинул для размышления, там где школьники скачут. Это оказался не Киев, а Дрогобыч, а запись была изрязно подредактирована за счет тех эпизодов, где одни школьники урезонивают других - тех, которые "на гіляку". Но это же мелочь, правда?

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## Crocodile

> Нет, обыкновенные, нормальные люди. Как и везде.

 Совершенно верно. Если люди в массовом порядке решили сменить вывеску в надежде на лучшее будущее для себя и своих детей (ака колбаса), так в чём проблема? Есть у них гарантии или таких гарнтий нет, кто знает? Они, пожалуй, намного меньше предатели, чем, допустим, мы с тобой.  ::

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## Basil77

> 2. Кому выгодно, чтобы все было гладко и никто не рыпался (мотив).

 Тело нашли до референдума и тут же раструбили по всем укросми о зверствах оккупантов. Если бы нужно было по-тихому заставить замолчать, то просто закрыли бы в СИЗО под каким-нибудь предлогом.

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## it-ogo

Насчет качества приведенного материала как информационного оружия. Паршивое оружие. Народ же обычно не тексты читает и ссылки раскручивает, а видео и картинки смотрит. А картинка там по твоему утверждению невразумительная. Я же говорю - обломался мужик, никто ему в морду не давал на камеру. Тихо увезли и убили.

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## Ramil

1. Возможность была у кого угодно
2. Мотива у нынешних крымских властей не было никакого. 
3. Характерный почерк - перо в глаз тоже может иметь кто угодно. 
На мотиве, как раз, хотелось остановиться поподробнее. Кому был выгоден этот инцидент? Впрочем, у прогрессивной мировой общественности не вызывает сомнений, что убил нацмена на оккупированной исконно-украинской земле лично Путин.

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## Crocodile

> 1. Полностью контролирует ситуацию в Крыму (возможность).
> 2. Кому выгодно, чтобы все было гладко и никто не рыпался (мотив).
> 3. Кто имеет характерный почерк (умиротворение Чечни).

 Доказательства, увы, далеки от совершенства.  
1. Полный контроль может быть только в фантастических фильмах из Голливуда. Обычнно, правая нога не знает, что делает левая рука. А в армии тем более. 
2. Выгодно многим. Например курултаю и меджлису. Они сразу заявили, что протестов не будет. Вместо этого, они пойдут другим путём признания себя как коренного народа через ООН с последующими требованиями размещать войска на своей территории только с их согласия. Думаю, в перспективе, заноза для России очень приличная. Протестные выступления - это нужно только Киеву. Больше никому. 
3. Характерный почерк имеет любой, кто прошёл соответствующее обучение. В Украине немало людей, прошедших, допустим, Афганистан. Есть люди, прошедшие и Чечню, забыл? Ну, и просто если был хороший инструктор во время подготовки. Кстати, убить со следами пыток вполне может и криминал. И просто мудаки. 
И вообще, захватить могут те, кого попросили захватить. А убить могли те, кого попросили убить. Концов нет. Доказательства каждый выдумывает по мере своих способностей. Или воспринимает готовые.

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## Sibiriak

Специально для «it-ogo» лично от меня, собственного сочинения 
Безумен «мир» убийцами воспетый
В нём нету чести и предательство в цене
При лжи дремучей, по крови сограждан
Прошли во власть стервятники войны 
Ваш «мир иллюзий» на костях построен
Не слышите вы собственный народ
Вам власть нужна - продаться подороже
Судьба страны для вас вопрос второй 
Славянский Мир у вас стал под запретом
Разрушен подло братский наш союз
Вы тех, кто был готов плечо подставить
Предали мелко, даже глазом не моргнув 
Равны вы были меж родных народов
Но видимо быть вместе не судьба
Вы выбрали робами быть в Европе
Мы равными вас видели всегда

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## Lampada

> Совершенно верно. Если люди в массовом порядке решили сменить вывеску в надежде на лучшее будущее для себя и своих детей (ака колбаса), так в чём проблема? Есть у них гарантии или таких гарнтий нет, кто знает? Они, пожалуй, намного меньше предатели, чем, допустим, мы с тобой.

 Нет, ни мы не предатели, ни все те, кто из своих родных земель по разным причинам во всякие времена уезжает. Ты, мне _кается_, тут троллишь немного.  ::

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## it-ogo

> Тело нашли до референдума и тут же раструбили по всем укросми о зверствах оккупантов. Если бы нужно было по-тихому заставить замолчать то просто закрыли бы в СИЗО под каким-нибудь предлогом.

 Это когда госаппарат уже под полным контролем и сам занимается подавлением. А когда госаппарат еще крымский, ненатренированный, неразъясненный, не адаптировавшийся к новым реалиям, и Порядок обеспечивают недавно высадившиеся группы, получается именно так - по законам военного времени.

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## Ramil

Есть такой хороший фильм, называется Wag the dog (уже старый довольно). C Хоффманом и Де Ниро. 
Очень рекомендую посмотреть всем, кто ещё верит в какие-то там идеалы. В лёгкой комедийной манере показана, в сущности, правда о том, каким образом делается политика. Впрочем, вру. На самом деле, всё гораздо грязнее.

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## Crocodile

> Нет, ни мы не предатели, ни все те, кто из своих родных земель по разным причинам уезжает. Ты, мне _кается_, тут троллишь немного?

 Ну, совсем немного. Если чуть-чуть, то не считается, о'кей?  :: 
Лично мне, в своё время, в советском военкомате, когда бумаги готовил на ПМЖ, так прямо и сказали - мол, предатель, будешь служить в армии вероятного противника.  ::

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## it-ogo

> 1. Возможность была у кого угодно
> 2. Мотива у нынешних крымских властей не было никакого. 
> 3. Характерный почерк - перо в глаз тоже может иметь кто угодно.

 Во время тщательно спланированной военной операции по захвату территории на этой самой территории, уже прочно контролируемой войсками захватчика возможности всех, кроме оного захватчика крайне ограничены. 
При чем здесь крымские "власти"? Я о них вообще ничего не говорил. 
Почерк - исчезновение - труп со следами пыток. Террор. Такое бывало в Латинской Америке во времена эскадронов смерти. В современной Европе это есть только в России.

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## Basil77

> Это когда госаппарат уже под полным контролем и сам занимается подавлением. А когда госаппарат еще крымский, ненатренированный, неразъясненный, не адаптировавшийся к новым реалиям, и Порядок обеспечивают недавно высадившиеся группы, получается именно так - по законам военного времени.

 Хорошо, допустим. Всё-равно выкидывать тело 15 числа, за день до референдума в место, где его тут же нашли как-то нелогично. То, как его сажают в машину снято с 2х ракурсов и не мобильными телефончиками, а профессиональными камерами. Кто снимал, интересно? Закрыть можно было не только в СИЗО, а хоть в Севастополе на гауптвахте на базе ЧФ. Ты сам себе противоречишь - с одной стороны "полный контроль России", с другой "госаппарат не под контролем". И, наконец, тело обнаружили 15-го, а через 2 дня неизвестные снайперы там же в Симферополе убивают 2х человек. Я допускаю, что могла действовать одна и та же диверсионная группа.

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## Lampada

> Ну, совсем немного. Если чуть-чуть, то не считается, о'кей? 
> Лично мне, в своё время, в советском военкомате, когда бумаги готовил на ПМЖ, так прямо и сказали - мол, предатель, будешь служить в армии вероятного противника.

  Знакомо.  Моему папе, после тридцати пяти лет работы начальником большого отдела, прошедшего всю войну, сказали:  "Кому мы доверяли!".   Обидно было за него. Уезжать даже не его идея была, а его жены.

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## Ramil

> Во время тщательно спланированной военной операции по захвату территории на этой самой территории, уже прочно контролируемой войсками захватчика возможности всех, кроме оного захватчика крайне ограничены. 
> При чем здесь крымские "власти"? Я о них вообще ничего не говорил. 
> Почерк - исчезновение - труп со следами пыток. Террор. Такое бывало в Латинской Америке во времена эскадронов смерти. В современной Европе это есть только в России.

 В то, что ты сильно поглупел за последнее время, я всё равно не поверю, так что можешь не прикидываться. В Крыму сейчас бардак и мутная водичка. А в мутной водичке рыбка ловится. 
И не надо на каждый труп вешать ярлык "Террор". На лицо - явный криминал без всякой политики. Как раз труп со следами пыток - весьма убедительное свидетельство криминальной расправы. Уж за что его там пытали и убили - я не знаю. А уж политику с каким-то протестом на труп могли и после смерти повесить какие-нибудь упоротые украинские патриоты. 
Впрочем, провокацию я тоже не исключаю. Единственное, что я исключаю на 99%, так это то, что это убийство по поводу протеста и из-за протеста.

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## Crocodile

Basil77, респект. Размышляешь. Случайно подготовку в органах правопорядка не проходил?

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## Crocodile

> В то, что ты сильно поглупел за последнее время, я всё равно не поверю, так что можешь не прикидываться.

 +1
Стопудово, ит-ого прикидывается. Я уже говорил.

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## it-ogo

> Доказательства, увы, далеки от совершенства.

 Это не доказательства, а основания для подозрения. На основании которых, например, может производиться задержание или арест. Доказательства могли бы быть получены в ходе независимого открытого расследования.   

> 1. Полный контроль может быть только в фантастических фильмах из Голливуда. Обычно, правая нога не знает, что делает левая рука. А в армии тем более.

 Ну да. Чтобы сделать это, не нужен весь аппарат. Нужна группа с заданием отслеживать и пресекать и крутыми ксивами.    

> 2. Выгодно многим. Например курултаю и меджлису. Они сразу заявили, что протестов не будет. Вместо этого, они пойдут другим путём признания себя как коренного народа через ООН с последующими требованиями размещать войска на своей территории только с их согласия.

 Ничего не понял - в чем выгода-то и как это связано?   

> Думаю, в перспективе, заноза для России очень приличная.

  ::  ООН - заноза для России? С каких пор? СБ блокируем, прочее - игнорируем.   

> Протестные выступления - это нужно только Киеву. Больше никому.

 Какие протестные выступления? Потерял нить твоих рассуждений.   

> 3. Характерный почерк имеет любой, кто прошёл соответствующее обучение. В Украине немало людей, прошедших, допустим, Афганистан. Есть люди, прошедшие и Чечню, забыл? Ну, и просто если был хороший инструктор во время подготовки. Кстати, убить со следами пыток вполне может и криминал. И просто мудаки.

 Угу. Рожа его не понравилась.  Кстати, как там насчет статистики убийств со следами пыток по Крыму до аннексии?

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## Basil77

> Basil77, респект. Размышляешь. Случайно подготовку в органах правопорядка не проходил?

 Спасибо. Да нет, куда там. Я даже в армии не служил - только военная кафедра в институте. Просто качество пропаганды со стороны украинских и западных СМИ что-то в последнее время совсем упало ниже плинтуса. Постоянно пытаются втюхать ну совсем уж полную туфту. Похоже на истерику.

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## Ramil

> Спасибо. Да нет, куда там. Я даже в армии не служил - только военная кафедра в институте. Просто качество пропаганды со стороны украинских и западных СМИ что-то в последнее время совсем упало ниже плинтуса. Постоянно пытаются втюхать ну совсем уж полную туфту. Похоже на истерику.

 ... ибо все признаки того, что их западные кукловоды таки собираются их кинуть. Оставаться один на один со своим любимым украинским народом, думаю, они по каким-то причинам не хотят.

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## Crocodile

> Доказательства могли бы быть получены в ходе независимого открытого расследования.

 Независимое открытое расследование. Угу. И когда ты этого сказочного зверя видел?   

> Нужна группа с заданием отслеживать и пресекать и крутыми ксивами.

 Как вариант - да. Или любая другая маленькая группа. И где же тезис о полном контроле над ситуацией? Полного контроля не было, нет и не будет. И для совершённого преступления полный контроль и не нужен, как ты только что правильно и объяснил. Пункт первый из оснований для подозрения выпадает.    

> Ничего не понял - в чем выгода-то и как это связано?

 Ты утверждал, что только оккупационным силам выгодно, чтобы никто не рыпался. Меджилсу выгодно тоже самое - всё решать мирным путём. Почему? Потому, что именно из-за этого изначально и появились зелёные человечки утром 27-го февраля. Смотрим "независимые СМИ" - педивикию:
"В центре Симферополя 26 февраля произошла массовая драка между крымскими татарами (преимущественно из Меджлиса крымских татар), поддерживающими новую украинскую власть, и представителями пророссийских организаций, выступающими против неё. Среди сторонников Меджлиса был замечен флаг УПА, а также лозунги «Слава Украине! — Героям слава!»[156] В ходе возникшей потасовки 30 человек получили ранения разной степени тяжести и двое погибли. Среди погибших — пожилой мужчина (от сердечного приступа) и задавленная толпой женщина с пророссийского митинга (разрыв селезёнки)[157]. Заседание Верховного Совета автономии, на котором ожидалось принятие решения в защиту русского языка и за углубление самостоятельности региона, оказалось сорванным сторонниками Меджлиса. Для возобновления работы крымского парламента возникла необходимость в усилении его охраны. По всему полуострову стали формироваться «отряды самообороны» из представителей русскоязычного населения." 
Как пришли человечки на следующее утро - меджлис сразу сказал: будем сидеть тихо, ибо все решения сейчас будут приниматься на таком уровне, что протесты могут только помешать.   

> ООН - заноза для России? С каких пор? СБ блокируем, прочее - игнорируем.

 До сих пор только две страны с условно развитой индустриальной экономикой могли позволить себе чихать на ООН: Израиль и ЮАР. Обе эти страны стабильно поддерживались (и поддерживаются) теми, кого ООН по настоящему не волнует. Как только поддержка ЮАР закончилась - там всё развалилось. Обрати внимание на то, что перед Олимпиадой выпустили всех, в защиту кого могли быть настоящие протесты. Ну, так протесты были в защиту геев. Сейчас позиция РФ понятна - подождём пока утрясётся истерия, тогда результаты референдума будут признаны (лет через 10). А если будет такое, что коренной народ в РФ угнетается, то это же царский подарок для всех протестующих.    

> Угу. Рожа его не понравилась. Кстати, как там насчет статистики убийств со следами пыток по Крыму до аннексии?

 Без понятия. Тебе такая статистика известна? Во время крымских преступных войн такого было много. Может, ещё остались специалисты?

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## it-ogo

> Хорошо, допустим. Всё-равно выкидывать тело 15 числа, за день до референдума в место, где его тут же нашли как-то нелогично. То, как его сажают в машину снято с 2х ракурсов и не мобильными телефончиками, а профессиональными камерами. Кто снимал, интересно? Закрыть можно было не только в СИЗО, а хоть в Севастополе на гауптвахте на базе ЧФ. Ты сам себе противоречишь - с одной стороны "полный контроль России", с другой "госаппарат не под контролем". И, наконец, тело обнаружили 15-го, а через 2 дня неизвестные снайперы там же в Симферополе убивают 2х человек. Я допускаю, что могла действовать одна и та же диверсионная группа.

 Интересно, кто снимал. Мое предположение я озвучил - хотели устроить скандал, ожидали, что морду набьют, но недооценили серьезность произошедших изменений. 
Под контролем территория - под контролем военных и спецслужб. Аборигены уже под физическим контролем, но еще не под организационным и психологическим. Для тишины нужен страх, а не "закрыть в СИЗО". 
Ага. Диверсионная группа из Киева. То есть "подросток из Львова", правильно? Давай рассмотрим.  Возможность. У Киева нет военных, готовых организовать эффективное сопротивление противнику. Временное правительство только что пришло к власти, если это можно так назвать и не контролирует вообще ничего. Везде разброд и шатание. Зато есть диверсионная группа убийц с абсолютно секретными опорными базами в Крыму, настолько крутая и профессиональная, что их до сих пор не поймали - при наличии видеозаписей, политической важности дел и исключительной милитаризации полуострова. Крайне сомнительная возможность.  
Или это не Киев, а некая ультраправая националистическая организация? Заранее побеспокоилась о паролях и явках в Крыму. О, это неприятные ребята. Музычко "на революцию" тачки отжимал и с гаишников дань брал. Фарион детишек за русские имена ругала. Тягнибок жидов поносил (впрочем, в глазах россиян это, скорее, плюс). Только вот таких крутых операций и такой крутой агентурно-партизанской работы за ними не числится как-то. Нет ни опыта, ни достаточной организации. Пиздеятели они, а не террористы. В отличие от. 
Еще более сомнительно.  Мотив. Что это дает? Видео невразумительное. Информационный повод можно получить гораздо легче. Вон, российское ТВ посмотреть - поучиться информационной войне. Из пальца любой ужас высосут. К чему такие затраты? НАТО впутать? НАТО уже умыло руки. Плевать им на нас - никто с ядерно-газовым Путиным бодаться не будет. На "референдум" повлиять? Даже не смешно.  Почерк. Террор в политических целях в современной Европе использует только Россия. 
ПС Как там твои родственники из-под Сум? Рады тебе, или глаза отводят?

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## Lampada

> Отлично. И не стыдно тебе позорить отца, воевавшего против нацистов, поддержкой украинской нацистско-бандеровской хунты?

  Не надо учить меня жить, и никого не надо.  Молодой ишо.

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## Basil77

> Возможность. У Киева нет военных, готовых организовать эффективное сопротивление противнику. Временное правительство только что пришло к власти, если это можно так назвать и не контролирует вообще ничего. Везде разброд и шатание. Зато есть диверсионная группа убийц с абсолютно секретными опорными базами в Крыму, настолько крутая и профессиональная, что их до сих пор не поймали - при наличии видеозаписей, политической важности дел и исключительной милитаризации полуострова. Крайне сомнительная возможность.

 У Киева есть СБУ и Наливайченко, который вручал погоны молодым офицерам СБУ вместе с послом США и наставниками из ЦРУ:   
 Наливайченко отстранили от этой должности только осенью, когда даже овощ Янук понял, что Штаты его сейчас сольют, а его глава СБУ их прямой агент. Послушай интервью товарища, который был главой СБУ, пока отстранили Наливайченко, очень познавательно. А сразу после путча Наливайченко вернулся на ту же должность. По сути и не уходил.  В то, что у службы безопасности государства размером с Украину нет хотя бы нескольких хорошо подготовленных диверсионных груп для выполнения грязных специальных задач я не верю. Особенно с учётом активной помощи для подготовки кадров от друзей с фото выше. Забросить группу в Крым на надувной лодочке с мотором из Херсона, высадиться на безлюдном берегу, сдуть лодку и спрятать в тайнике, и.т.д. можно было без всяких проблем.   

> ПС Как там твои родственники из-под Сум? Рады тебе, или глаза отводят?

 А с какой стати они не должны быть мне рады? Они бы до потолка скакали от счастья, если бы Сумскую область Путин к России присоединил. Вот только нереально это. Если ты думаешь, что я счастлив от того, как развиваются события, то ты сильно ошибаешься. Только, ты винишь во всём Россию и Путина, а я - продажных украинских олигархов, агрессивную политику США и придурков с майдана. И очень переживаю за людей на Украине. Вот так.

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## it-ogo

> Независимое открытое расследование. Угу. И когда ты этого сказочного зверя видел?

 Ну, можно сделать вид. Например, когда Музычко застрелили, Аваков повыкладывал там всякую оперативную видеосъемку, обещал все документы по делу обнародовать по мере хода разбирательства, потому как дело важное и вопрос о доверии власти... А что там Путин говорит о расследовании дела Решата Аметова? Какие документы выкладывает?   

> Как вариант - да. Или любая другая маленькая группа. И где же тезис о полном контроле над ситуацией? Полного контроля не было, нет и не будет. И для совершённого преступления полный контроль и не нужен, как ты только что правильно и объяснил. Пункт первый из оснований для подозрения выпадает.

 Угу. Берешься организовать диверсионную группу для работы в Крыму из торонтских парней, раз это так просто? Группа должна быть независима только в процессе непосредственной работы с клиентом. Все остальное время она должна иметь транспорт, кормежку, лежку, прочее снабжение, контакт с командованием и абсолютные ксивы от всех проверяльщиков. Иначе она палится в течение суток или меньше. Почему-то мне опять кажется, что ты сачкуешь. В смысле не заботишься о достоверности аргументации.    

> Ты утверждал, что только оккупационным силам выгодно, чтобы никто не рыпался. Меджилсу выгодно тоже самое - всё решать мирным путём. Почему? Потому, что именно из-за этого изначально и появились зелёные человечки утром 27-го февраля.

 Так ты все-таки настаиваешь на версии "отрядов самообороны Крыма"? Ну конечно, молниеносный ночной захват полуострова Крым хорошо экипированными людьми с бронетранспортерами конечно же был вызван задавлением толпой женщины и сердечным приступом пожилого мужчины.    

> Как пришли человечки на следующее утро - меджлис сразу сказал: будем сидеть тихо, ибо все решения сейчас будут приниматься на таком уровне, что протесты могут только помешать.

 Извини, я не думаю, что Меджлису это НАСТОЛЬКО выгодно. И что у них есть террор-группы, действующие без ведома общины (т.е. родственников  покойного).   

> Без понятия. Тебе такая статистика известна? Во время крымских преступных войн такого было много. Может, ещё остались специалисты?

 Это в девяностых? Может быть. Хотя в Донбассе в то время при общей суровости нравов такое все-таки было редкостью. Сейчас это сенсация.

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## it-ogo

> У Киева есть СБУ и Наливайченко, который вручал погоны молодым офицерам СБУ вместе с послом США и наставниками из ЦРУ:

 Ну, если ЦРУ вручает погоны, то все. Это убийственный аргумент.   

> Наливайченко отстранили от этой должности только осенью, когда даже овощ Янук понял, что Штаты его сейчас сольют, а его глава СБУ их прямой агент. Послушай интервью товарища, который был главой СБУ, пока отстранили Наливайченко, очень познавательно. А сразу после путча Наливайченко вернулся на ту же должность. По сути и не уходил.  В то, что у службы безопасности государства размером с Украину нет хотя бы нескольких хорошо подготовленных диверсионных груп для выполнения грязных специальных задач я не верю. Особенно с учётом активной помощи для подготовки кадров от друзей с фото выше.

 А ты веришь, что государство размером с Украину и с таким соседом, как Россия добровольно отказалось от ядерного оружия? Я теперь тоже не верю. Мы - страна идиотов. Мы искренне верили, что сможем прожить безо всей этой дряни.   

> Забросить группу в Крым на надувной лодочке с мотором из Херсона, высадиться на безлюдном берегу, сдуть лодку и спрятать в тайнике, и.т.д. можно было без всяких проблем.

 Неужели проще, чем выкинуть пять сотен качков с арматурой из донецкой обладминистрации?   

> А с какой стати они не должны быть мне рады? Они бы до потолка скакали от счастья, если бы Сумскую область Путин к России присоединил. Вот только нереально это. Если ты думаешь, что я счастлив от того, как развиваются события, то ты сильно ошибаешься. Только, ты винишь во всём Россию и Путина, а я - продажных украинских олигархов, агрессивную политику США и придурков с майдана. И очень переживаю за людей на Украине. Вот так.

 Да верю, потому и разговариваю с тобой. 
Россия сейчас действительно не империалистическая держава - она не в состоянии содержать новые территории и народы и у нее нет достаточно мощной идеологии и экономики для этого. Даже Крым для России - очень большая нагрузка, а военного значения он не имеет, что бы там ни говорили. Турецкий флот минимум на порядок круче черноморского российского, не говоря уже про прочее НАТО. Для США и НАТО Россия не соперник, но и интересов особых здесь у них нет - они просто стараются не связываться с Россией, "чтобы не воняло". Так что единственные цели аннексии Крыма - временное поднятие персонального рейтинга Путина и дестабилизация Украины для поддержания нас в нищете и убожестве, чтобы собственное российское население не сильно интересовалось внутренними проблемами, а злорадствовало по поводу соседа и пугалось ЦРУ и т.п.

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## Basil77

> А ты веришь, что государство размером с Украину и с таким соседом, как Россия добровольно отказалось от ядерного оружия? Я теперь тоже не верю. Мы - страна идиотов. Мы искренне верили, что сможем прожить безо всей этой дряни.

 А Украина добровольно и не отказывалась. Только 2 страны в мировой истории отказались добровольно - ЮАР и Казахстан. Украина очень долго брыкалась, но на неё сильно давили те же американцы, которым проще было контролировать одну Россию. Плюс для содержания ядерного оружия нужны приличные средства, которых у Украины просто нет. Будапештский меморандум только в 97м подписали - 6 лет переговоры шли. Так что не надо про "добровольно". В России тогда тоже, кстати, на всех ядерных объектах американские инспекторы сидели безвылазно.   

> Неужели проще, чем выкинуть пять сотен качков с арматурой из донецкой обладминистрации?

 Если бы только с арматурой, то давно бы уже выкинули, как в Харькове. Там у ребят только один газовый пистолет и был. Ты видео смотрел? В Донецкой ОГА у них как минимум несколько АК и гранат имеется. Поэтому Ахметов там и носится сейчас между ними в качестве посредника - свои миллиарды спасает.

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## it-ogo

У нас тут тоже войска какие-то попоявлялись. Народ им еду таскает. Ожил заброшенный в 90-х военный аэродром, вертолеты какие-то постоянно. Говорят истребители, хотя вряд ли - полосы-то не чинили невесть сколько. Неужели Ярош с Рамилем правы и Московская империя нас без большой крови не отпустит?

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## Basil77

> У нас тут тоже войска какие-то попоявлялись. Народ им еду таскает. Ожил заброшенный в 90-х военный аэродром, вертолеты какие-то постоянно. Говорят истребители, хотя вряд ли - полосы-то не чинили невесть сколько. Неужели Ярош прав и Московская империя нас без большой крови не отпустит?

 Большую кровь если развяжут, то только у вас внутри, хотя я в это не верю. А вот Путин на это не пойдёт. Ты понимаешь, что в России 90% до сих пор считает украинцев своими соотечественниками? Я когда вижу ту ненависть, которая брызжет из некоторых украинских комментов и СМИ, мне просто страшно становится. Тут и близко нет такого по отношению к украинцам. Если Путин развяжет войну и погибнут люди, неважно наши солдаты или украинцы - Путину крышка в политическом смысле. От его рейтинга не останется и следа.

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## Homsa

> Ты понимаешь, что в России 90% до сих пор считает украинцев своими соотечественниками? Я когда вижу ту ненависть, которая брызжет из некоторых украинских комментов и СМИ, мне просто страшно становится. Тут и близко нет такого по отношению к украинцам.

 Тут собственно вопрос: Все ли кто активно не любил Януковича – бандеровцы? 
Просто если нет, то против кого совет федерации разрешил ввести войска? 
Нет, я конечно верю что в глазах россиян это решение выглядит чтобы побить всех плохих и помочь всем хорошим… Но в глазах украинцев это выгладит чтобы побить всех нас и посадить подконтрольное себе правительство. 
Страх и ненависть это такая естественная и такая человеческая реакция… Чему уж тут удивляться? Русофобских настроений в Украине сейчас предостаточно, и как бы виноваты в этом не украинцы а человеческая природа. Ну и угроза введения войск. Ну и прецедент что это  могут быть не пустые обещания.

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## Ramil

Если бы вопрос стоял либо правительство, подконтрольное Москве, либо независимое правительство, праведный гнев украинцев можно было бы понять. Но сейчас-то вопрос стоит либо правительство, подконтрольное Москве, либо правительство, подконтрольное Брюсселю (или Вашингтону - один хер).

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## Homsa

> Если бы вопрос стоял либо правительство, подконтрольное Москве, либо независимое правительство, праведный гнев украинцев можно было бы понять. Но сейчас-то вопрос стоит либо правительство, подконтрольное Москве, либо правительство, подконтрольное Брюсселю (или Вашингтону - один хер).

 Я, собственно, не пытался объяснять "как оно все на самом деле". Просто хотел сказать что рост антироссийских настроений – естественная реакция возникшая в ответ на "решительность в отстаивании своих геополитических интересов". 
А по поводу того почему нет такой активной "противобрюссельской" реакции... Так вроде никто к нам танками заезжать и не собирался. Самое страшное чем грозили Януковичу – заморозить дипломатические отношения (и личные счета). Согласитесь, совсем не одно и то же.
Внезапно перспектива войны разозлила украинцев сильнее. Странно.

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## Ramil

А откуда сведения о перспективах войны?

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## Homsa

> А откуда сведения о перспективах войны?

 "- Они готовят пушку!
 - Зачем?
 - А!!!!! Они будут стрелять!" 
Совет федерации проголосовал за разрешение на ввод войск в Украину. 
Вы можете возразить, что обещать и жениться это не одно и то же, но это вам лично все понятно. С другой стороны и ваш прогноз относительно крыма не сбылся. А вроде очень логично звучал. 
В последнее время столько всего странного происходит… Ничего не понятно. Страх порождает гнев, Гнев ведет к темной стороне силы…

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## it-ogo

> Я когда вижу ту ненависть, которая брызжет из некоторых украинских комментов и СМИ, мне просто страшно становится. Тут и близко нет такого по отношению к украинцам.

 Видишь ли, интернет и реальная жизнь - две большие разницы. Мы тут в Донбассе России вполне симпатизировали, теперь - больше молчим. Знаешь, как о покойнике. В интернете же можно немного сбросить условности. Ненависти и презрения к Украине и украинцам в рунете всегда хватало - искать особо не приходилось. И я понимаю, что в реальной жизни и тон и разговоры совсем другие.   
Но сейчас я как-то разговелся посмотреть российское ТВ. Знаешь, иногда ложь - это просто ложь. Не другая интерпретация, не другое мнение, не истерика испуганного человека, не закидон придурка, а откровенная, равнодушная, технологичная, высокопрофессиональная, циничная ложь. Везде. Сплошным потоком. У нас все очень разное, у каждого свои закидоны и мнение. Можно выбирать, что нравится, и всегда можно найти перл в навозе - в самых неожиданных местах. У вас же все одинаково. The wall. 
Кто-то говорил, что общество адаптировалось к этому и серьезно не воспринимает. Не знаю. Не вижу.

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## Ramil

> "- Они готовят пушку!
>  - Зачем?
>  - А!!!!! Они будут стрелять!" 
> Совет федерации проголосовал за разрешение на ввод войск в Украину. 
> Вы можете возразить, что обещать и жениться это не одно и то же, но это вам лично все понятно. С другой стороны и ваш прогноз относительно крыма не сбылся. А вроде очень логично звучал. 
> В последнее время столько всего странного происходит… Ничего не понятно. Страх порождает гнев, Гнев ведет к темной стороне силы…

  
Наверное, стоит объяснить. 1 марта никаких гарантий того, что на территории Украины не начнётся Приднестровье образца 1992 года, никто дать не мог. Ситуация менялась не то, что ежедневно, но ежеминутно. Наверное, рассматривались и варианты того, что вооруженным силам России действительно пришлось бы вмешаться (хотя бы для обеспечения безопасности границы). Президент страны, являясь верховным главнокомандующим, по Российским законам не может использовать армию за границей без одобрения парламента. Поскольку, случись что, времени на все (пусть и формальные, с точки зрения многих) процедуры не было бы, решили подстраховаться заранее. 
С вашей колокольни, конечно, такое голосование виделось эквивалентом объявления войны, хотя, опять же, с юридической точки зрения, на Украине произошел государственный переворот, и власть захватили хер знает кто (это мягко сказано). Теперь же, как я понимаю, все СМИ поют о неминуемом вторжении. Враг у ворот и все дела. Все украинцы со страхом вглядываются на восток, нет появились ли там ещё российские танки, а эти "хер знает кто", отвлекая ваше внимание внешней угрозой и призывая украинцев сплотиться для отражения агрессора, уже наподписывали кучу обязательств, которые ваш, избранный в мае президент, будет вынужден выполнять (иначе, боюсь, он ВНЕЗАПНО опять окажется "нелегитимным").

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## Ramil

> Но сейчас я как-то разговелся посмотреть российское ТВ. Знаешь, иногда ложь - это просто ложь. Не другая интерпретация, не другое мнение, не истерика испуганного человека, не закидон придурка, а откровенная, равнодушная, технологичная, высокопрофессиональная, циничная ложь. Везде. Сплошным потоком. У нас все очень разное, у каждого свои закидоны и мнение. Можно выбирать, что нравится, и всегда можно найти перл в навозе - в самых неожиданных местах. У вас же все одинаково. The wall. 
> Кто-то говорил, что общество адаптировалось к этому и серьезно не воспринимает. Не знаю. Не вижу.

 На самом деле, я даже где-то горжусь тем, что, хоть на локальном уровне, наши научились вести более-менее успешную информационную войну. Не смотрю телевизор вообще, но горжусь. В отношении же освещения событий в интернетах, "калейдоскопа" мнений на украинских ресурсах я тоже не вижу. Везде та же самая "стена", только с противоположным вектором. Вернее, есть у вас ещё и "наши" агенты в СМИ, но на то и информационная война.
Надеюсь, что рано или поздно, Россия сможет влиять и на общемировой информационный фон и вбивать в мозги свою, "правильную" точку зрения. Ну а зачем ещё нужно телевидение? Не для объективного же освещения событий, в самом деле.

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## Homsa

> Наверное, стоит объяснить...

 Да не стоит. 
Объяснений может быть вагон и маленькая тележка. И у каждого они свои. Дело ведь не в том есть объяснения или нет. Дело в том, что такая реакция  естественна.  Нет, ну в самом деле, если бы Япония "восстановила историческую справедливость" при помощи зеленых человечков в вопросе курил, то антияпонские настроения в России были бы результатом государственной пропаганды или поднимались бы из глубин дремучего патриотизма?

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## Basil77

> Тут собственно вопрос: Все ли кто активно не любил Януковича – бандеровцы?

 Да нет, конечно. В последний год Януковича презирали или ненавидели абсолютно все - и на западе Украины, и на Востоке, и в России. Вот только майдан поддерживали далеко не все. А уж когда там начали "Беркут" цепями избивать, давить тракторами и закидывать коктейлями Молотова, стало понятно, где по-настоящему большое зло, а где мелкий пакостник.   

> Просто если нет, то против кого совет федерации разрешил ввести войска? 
> Нет, я конечно верю что в глазах россиян это решение выглядит чтобы побить всех плохих и помочь всем хорошим… Но в глазах украинцев это выгладит чтобы побить всех нас и посадить подконтрольное себе правительство.

 Против тех, кто может начать поступать с обычными людьми так же, как с "Беркутом" в масштабах всей страны.   

> Страх и ненависть это такая естественная и такая человеческая реакция… Чему уж тут удивляться? Русофобских настроений в Украине сейчас предостаточно, и как бы виноваты в этом не украинцы а человеческая природа. Ну и угроза введения войск. Ну и прецедент что это  могут быть не пустые обещания.

 После 1-го марта я понимаю - оккупанты, пропаганда в СМИ и.т.д. Но я ещё в январе видел десятки видео с майдана с криками про "на ножi" и "на гiляку". Сейчас то понятно, даже на школьных линейках такое орут. А в январе-то почему тысячи сопляков такое верещали?

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## Ramil

> Да не стоит. 
> Объяснений может быть вагон и маленькая тележка. И у каждого они свои. Дело ведь не в том есть объяснения или нет. Дело в том, что такая реакция  естественна.  Нет, ну в самом деле, если бы Япония "восстановила историческую справедливость" при помощи зеленых человечков в вопросе курил, то антияпонские настроения в России были бы результатом государственной пропаганды или поднимались бы из глубин дремучего патриотизма?

 Поднимались бы. Речь-то о большой войне с Россией. Как если бы после Курил заговорили бы о планах отторжения в пользу Японии всего Дальнего Востока. Пропаганда-пропагандой, но одно дело давний срачик по поводу Крыма (несправедливо отобранного, по мнению Украины), другое - на полном серьёзе говорить о боевых действиях на Российско-Украинской границе.

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## Crocodile

> Как сопоставить "гражданское противостояние" в понимании г-на Венедиктова и реальность[...]
> По мнению Венедиктова А. А., половина граждан (протестующие) имеют одну позицию, половина (Беркут) - другую.[...]
> О какой гражданской войне идет речь?

 Честно говоря, ты задаёшь хорошие вопросы, но для того, чтобы получить хороший ответ, тебе нужен Венедиктов. Мы тут тебе ничем помочь не можем. Максимум, что возможно сделать, это попробовать найти собственную интерпретацию слов Венедиктова. Но, для какой-то осмысленной дискуссии, всё же хорошо было бы сбавить градус. Я вот тут недавно программу Шустера смотрел, так там один из выступающих сказал другому (тот, типа, призывал к поиску компромисса) замечательную фразу: "Вы со своей кремлёвской речёвкой уже здесь никого не удивите." В чём тогда был смысл дискуссии? Унизить оппонента? Это я к тому, что вот, допустим, предложу я тебе какую-нибудь вразумительную интерпретацию позиции Венедиктова, тебе это, собственно хочется услышать? Или ты уже для себя всё решил, и тебе любые аргументы до лампочки?

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## Hanna

So as of tomorrow, it's going to be Ukraine Army + ex Berkut + Blackwater/Akademi, against local pro-Russia supporters and the risk of Russia getting involved.  
I think Ukraine will crush this rebellion, and everything will go back to normal until the presidential elections. It doesn't sound like there are enough people who actually support the explicitly pro-Russia and referendum request.  
Then in the elections, a pro-West government wil be elected, and they'll be back to the same position as after the Orange revolution.  
Let's see if I am right or wrong!  
One part of the country can't be happy unless the other is unhappy, it seems. 
How much political circus can people take? 22 years must be close to the upper limit!

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## Basil77

> So as of tomorrow, it's going to be Ukraine Army + ex Berkut + Blackwater/Akademi, against local pro-Russia supporters and the risk of Russia getting involved.  
> I think Ukraine will crush this rebellion, and everything will go back to normal until the presidential elections. It doesn't sound like there are enough people who actually support the explicitly pro-Russia and referendum request.  
> Then in the elections, a pro-West government wil be elected, and they'll be back to the same position as after the Orange revolution.  
> Let's see if I am right or wrong!  
> One part of the country can't be happy unless the other is unhappy, it seems. 
> How much political circus can people take? 22 years must be close to the upper limit!

 I'm currently watching stream from Odessa. It's from "Hromadske" (!) TV (very anti-Russian). There are at least 50-70 thousands pro Russian protesters  (the column is 10-15 people wide pass for about a half of a hour or so):

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## Lampada

Оффтопик отделён.  См. http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%BE%...8%D0%BA-22429/

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## it-ogo

*Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, в Крыму вода грязная (видео)*Kramatorsk.INFO - новости Краматорска. Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, в Крыму вода грязная (видео)

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## SergeMak

> *Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, в Крыму вода грязная (видео)*Kramatorsk.INFO - новости Краматорска. Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, в Крыму вода грязная (видео)

 Ну и что это, как не откровенная брехня в эфире украинского ТВ?

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## Basil77

> *Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, в Крыму вода грязная (видео)*  Kramatorsk.INFO - новости Краматорска. Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, в Крыму вода грязная (видео)

 Ну вот зачем факты передёргивать? Где он сказал, что в Крыму грязная вода? Он сказал, что там инфраструктуре пипец, что правда. Я, кстати, вчера все 4 часа прослушал полностью, и так умилился, что даже накатил за императора. Хотя последние 10 лет его внутреннюю политику  терпеть не мог.

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## it-ogo

> Ну и что это, как не откровенная брехня в эфире украинского ТВ?

 Ну, во-первых, это ретрансляция выступления Путина с российских каналов, так что если брехня - все претензии к ним и Путину. 
Во-вторых, это вполне может оказаться правдой, другой вопрос, что ради блага крымчан Путину не стоило бы публично заострять на этом внимание. Но, видимо, Сочи все-таки важнее. 
Интересно также его отношение к шахтерам.

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## Basil77

> Интересно также его отношение к шахтерам.

 Очередное доказательство того, что человек слышит только то, что хочет услышать. Что же говорить про тех, кто слушает в переводе. По-моему абсолютно ясно, если послушать не нарезку, а полный текст, что Путин рассказывал о таком отношении к шахтёрам прежних хозяев Крыма. И недвусмысленно выразил таким отношением возмущение.

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## SergeMak

> Ну, во-первых, это ретрансляция выступления Путина с российских каналов, так что если брехня - все претензии к ним и Путину. 
> Во-вторых, это вполне может оказаться правдой, другой вопрос, что ради блага крымчан Путину не стоило бы публично заострять на этом внимание. Но, видимо, Сочи все-таки важнее. 
> Интересно также его отношение к шахтерам.

 Это наглядная иллюстрация к тезису о том, что пол-правды есть неправда, а также демонстрация методов фальсификации фактов, используемых украинскими ТВ.
Вот что было сказано на самом деле: 
1. Ответ на вопрос жительницы Севастополя о том, что должно быть сделано для развития не только туризма, но и других отраслей экономики Крыма: Прямая линия с Владимиром Путиным 17 апреля 2014 - YouTube 
2. Ответ на вопрос жительницы Сочи о том, не нанесет ли поддержка туризма в Крыму ущерба сочинским курортам и местному населению, занятому в сфере обслуживания туристов:  Прямая линия с Владимиром Путиным 17 апреля 2014 - YouTube 
Как видите, украинские ТВ еще те брехологи, а кто за ними попугайничает - вряд ли достоин уважения, увы...

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## it-ogo

> Очередное доказательство того, что человек слышит только то, что хочет услышать. Что же говорить про тех, кто слушает в переводе. По-моему абсолютно ясно, если послушать не нарезку, а полный текст, что Путин рассказывал о таком отношении к шахтёрам прежних хозяев Крыма. И недвусмысленно выразил таким отношением возмущение.

 Ааа... то есть сам придумал и тут же другому приписал.   

> Это наглядная иллюстрация к тезису о том, что пол-правды есть неправда, а также демонстрация методов фальсификации фактов, используемых украинскими ТВ.

 Какая разница, что говорит украинское ТВ? У россиян, а теперь и крымчан все равно доступа к нему нет. Важно, что говорит Путин на столь популярной и всенародно обожаемой передаче, как линия с Ним. А говорит он, что в Крыму сейчас просто отвратительно (разумеется виноваты в этом бендеровцы), и что Россия непременно все исправит и многое сделает. В результате россияне гордятся своей Родиной, облагодетельствующей Крым, но отдыхать туда не поедут. Потому что может и сделают, но когда - неизвестно, а просто отвратительно там уже сейчас. 
Так что суть месседжа укроТВ передало правильно.

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## SergeMak

> Какая разница, что говорит украинское ТВ? У россиян, а теперь и крымчан все равно доступа к нему нет. Важно, что говорит Путин на столь популярной и всенародно обожаемой передаче, как линия с Ним. А говорит он, что в Крыму сейчас просто отвратительно (разумеется виноваты в этом бендеровцы), и что Россия непременно все исправит и многое сделает. В результате россияне гордятся своей Родиной, облагодетельствующей Крым, но отдыхать туда не поедут. Потому что может и сделают, но когда - неизвестно, а просто отвратительно там уже сейчас. 
> Так что суть месседжа укроТВ передало правильно.

 Ничего подобного! УкроТВ сказало, что Путин призвал россиян ехать отдыхать в Сочи, а в Крыму - сплошная антисанитария в санаториях и на пляжах и вода грязная, а это ложь.
Следуя вашей логике, волнения в Турции, Египте, Таиланде тоже Путин устроил, чтобы русские туристы ехали отдыхать в Сочи, так что ли? 
Это во-первых. Во-вторых, никто в России украинское ТВ не запрещал. Подключайте кабельное ТВ и смотрите на здоровье, также можно смотреть укр.ТВ в Интернете.
В-третьих, мне кажется, наоборот, многие россияне захотят этим летом рвануть в Крым в расчете задешево отдохнуть на пустующих пляжах. Что же касается отдыхающих из Украины - все в руках ваших новых властей.

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## Basil77

> Ааа... то есть сам придумал и тут же другому приписал.
> Какая разница, что говорит украинское ТВ? У россиян, а теперь и крымчан все равно доступа к нему нет. Важно, что говорит Путин на столь популярной и всенародно обожаемой передаче, как линия с Ним. А говорит он, что в Крыму сейчас просто отвратительно (разумеется виноваты в этом бендеровцы), и что Россия непременно все исправит и многое сделает. В результате россияне гордятся своей Родиной, облагодетельствующей Крым, но отдыхать туда не поедут. Потому что может и сделают, но когда - неизвестно, а просто отвратительно там уже сейчас.
> Так что суть месседжа укроТВ передало правильно.

 Он абсолютно ясно сказал, что в ближайшие годы будет такое разделение: Сочи - для белых воротничков, Крым - для синих. То есть капитализм в действии. А нас ещё обвиняют, что мы тут новый совок строим. И авиабилеты до Симферополя уже реально по $200 в оба конца. Это действительно халява. Рапортуют, что на майские уже 70% мест в санаториях и гостиницах забронированы.  Плюс убрали таможню в Керчи, теперь переправа на машине занимает меньше часа (раньше стояли чуть ли не сутками). Ехать из Москвы на машине через Украину по Харьковской трассе где-то на 250 км ближе, но с учётом стоимости бензина на Украине  + $20 за страховку и очереди на таможне через Краснодар и Керчь получается дешевле и быстрее, как ни странно. К тому же у вас там на Симферопольской трассе россиян постоянно грабили лже-менты, у меня двоюродного брата в позапрошлом году чуть не убили. У нас тут давно ничего подобного нет. Это Украина в 90х застряла. Поживём - увидим, короче.

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## Lampada

http://en.ria.ru/photolents/20140321...-Pictures.html    
The Swallow's Nest decorative castle in southern Crimea  The Swallow's Nest decorative castle in southern Crimea       
The Nikitsky Botanical Garden in Yalta, southern Crimea The Nikitsky Botanical Garden in Yalta, southern Crimea      
Livadia Palace, a summer retreat of the last Russian Emperor Nicholas II, hosted the 1945 Yalta Conference of the Soviet, US and British leaders was held there in 1945 Livadia Palace, a summer retreat of the last Russian Emperor Nicholas II, hosted the 1945 Yalta Conference of the Soviet, US and British leaders was held there in 1945

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## Lampada

A 19th-century fountain in Gurzuf      Assumption cave monastery in Bakhchisarai.      Apricot trees in blossom

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## Lampada

Tulip field in Crimea.     Catherine’s Head rock on the southern slope of Mount Demerdzhi in Crimea.      Mountain lake in Crimea.

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## Lampada

The Genoese fortress in Sudak built in 1371-1469      Juma Jami Mosque built in 1552 in Yevpatoria, western Crimea.      Ruins of the Greek city of Chersonesos Taurica founded in Crimea by Greek colonists more than 2,500 years ago.       Sunrise on South Mountain Demerdzhi in Crimea.        Horse riders in Ai-Petri mountains in Crimea.

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## xdns

Viral autotune remix of the first speech of Crimea's new attorney general:     Learn more about Natalia Poklonskaya and internet craze she inspired.

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## Hanna

This is pathetic! Anyone who brings this up should be ashamed of themselves. I bet that poor woman is feeling wretched and utterly humiliated. She is a petite blonde with big eyes. So what! Hasn't anyone in Russia or Ukraine seen a pretty woman before? All this attention is ruining  her career and professional reputation. People should leave her alone  to do her job. It doesn't matter what you look like, in this day and age everybody needs to have a job to support themselves. Including goodlooking women!  
Or do you think she should sell out and cash in on her looks to marry some foreign rich guy?  This is a woman with personal integrity and it's really upsetting that people won't respect her for it.  
In her role as a prosecutor she should be judged based on that and not her looks. I got really pissed off when I saw RT bring up this story not once but twice. Shameless populism and really bad journalism worthy of a gossip magazine.  
Please don't mention this woman again - she has nothing to do with the politics of Crimea and she said herself that she wants to be judged on the merits of her performance.  If you like her, you should respect that.

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## Hanna

I would LOOOOOVE to go hiking in Crimea! The nature is totally unbelievable, and in such a compact area too. Beatiful landmarks and architecture too and then a beach to relax on afterwards.  
There is one big regret about Crimea joining Russia: Visa requirement. Ukraine didn't require visas from EU citizens but Russia does, and you need to get one before you leave your country of residence. Just a hassle and a shame.  
And I guess the whole Ukraine crisis has set back the prospect of Russia <-> EU visa-free regime with five years at least.

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## dtrq

> I bet that poor woman is feeling wretched and utterly humiliated.

 AFAIK, no, she like it and repost pics on twitter, actually. 
Why a woman would feel humiliated because of popularity?

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## Basil77

> AFAIK, no, she like it and repost pics on twitter, actually. 
> Why a woman would feel humiliated because of popularity?

 She said clearly in TV-interview that she neither have twitter account nor facebook or other social network accounts. Also she said that she don't like all this attention. Those twitters are obviously fake.

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## SergeMak

Прошлым летом отдыхал в Крыму. В Ласточкино Гнездо народ не пускали - только на смотровую площадку на скале за дворцом. Причина в том, что обнаружена трещина не то в скале, не то в фундаменте дворца и в любой момент эта яркая достопримечательность Крыма может упасть в море. У украинского государства, как всегда, не было денег на спасение памятника.

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## it-ogo

Интересный пост. Крымчанка жалуется на трудности переходного периода, но воспринимает их стоически и не "раскаивается". Действительно, эти трудности - временные и как-нибудь разрешатся. Если делаешь цивилизационный выбор, такие вещи принимать во внимание не следует. 
Гораздо интереснее будет, когда в Крым на отдых хлынут российские патриоты - поддержать крымчан в их нелегком выживании - и, приняв, начнут объяснять крымчанам, как они спасли Крым от бендеровцев, а теперь жертвуют своим отдыхом, только чтобы им помочь, и бюджетными деньгами, чтобы вытащить Крым из г---а. И что крымчане за это теперь должны быть им по гроб благодарны. Вот это будет настоящая проверка, - если крымчане это скушают с удовольствием - значит действительно россияне. 
Что-то похожее наблюдалось в Австрии после аншлюса, и именно после этого австрийцы перестали считать себя немцами. 
П.С. Татары что-то бузят. Видимо с ними таки недодоговорились.  http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/04/21/7023141/

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## Полуношник

> Прошлым летом отдыхал в Крыму. В Ласточкино Гнездо народ не пускали - только на смотровую площадку на скале за дворцом. Причина в том, что обнаружена трещина не то в скале, не то в фундаменте дворца и в любой момент эта яркая достопримечательность Крыма может упасть в море. У украинского государства, как всегда, не было денег на спасение памятника.

 Трещина в скале - это классика. Я уверен, деньги найдутся.

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## BappaBa

> И что крымчане за это теперь должны быть им по гроб благодарны. Вот это будет настоящая проверка, - если крымчане это скушают с удовольствием - значит действительно россияне.

 Да, сильно твоя свидомость болит, не зря на вас 5 лярдов амеры потратили.

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## it-ogo

Россия запретила Джемилеву въезд в Крым http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/04/22/7023214/ 
Депортация пока что не массовая...

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## Basil77

American goverment cancelled announced in September 2013 tender for reconstruction of Sevastopol public school #5 into USA Navy ingeneering facility:  https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=2bb691b6  1c59be3a68180bd8c614a0cb&_cview=1    P.S. For me, personally, this fact alone justifies all Putin's actions in Crimea.

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## it-ogo

Минобороны РФ подтвердило начало военной операции по "возвращению Крыма" 20-го февраля 2014 года. Янукович тогда еще был действующим президентом Украины. Также это дата начала расстрелов людей на Майдане.

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## Crocodile

> Минобороны РФ подтвердило начало военной операции по "возвращению Крыма" 20-го февраля 2014 года. Янукович тогда еще был действующим президентом Украины. Также это дата начала расстрелов людей на Майдане.

 Нда, дадут кому-то по башке очень сильно за эту ошибку с датами. Ну, ничего, удар будет удержан, пропаганда что-нибудь придумает. Вот, эксперты же подтвердили, что можно стрелять в милиционеров, а попасть себе в сердце два раза. А доказательство такое, что у человека на спусковом курке своего собственного пистолета были свои собственные отпечатки пальцев. Вот как оно бывает.   

> При этом стрелял активист в милиционеров, но попал себе в сердце. По словам Баганца, эксперты подтвердили именно вторую версию.  *Все пули*, по словам заместителя генпрокурора, как найденные в теле погибшего, так и на месте его гибели, *были выпущены из пистолета активиста*. Кроме того, «*генетические признаки клеток на спусковом механизме* пистолета ПМ, изъятого у подозреваемого Музычко, являются смешанными и *содержат генетические признаки образца крови Музычко*», — приводит доказательства Баганец.

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## RedFox

O_O Это посильнее, чем "упасть на нож, 5 раз подряд"!

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## Crocodile

> Россия запретила Джемилеву въезд в Крым http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/04/22/7023214/ 
> Депортация пока что не массовая...

 Угу. Массовая депортация - это, видимо, когда всем россиянам скопом в определённых возрастных рамках запрещают въезд в Украину. (Или не запрещают? Там в один день то разрешают, то запрещают. Без поллитра не разобраться.) 
Я всё жду когда ты перестанешь упорствовать в своём желании не соглашаться с очевидным - с тем, что в руководстве [как минимум обеих] государств сидят преступники. (И у них идут преступные разборки.) 
Кстати, если тебе не сложно, когда перепостиваешь материал, по возможности читай оригинал. Там ни слова про Крым. Написано про запрет въезда на территорию РФ.  ::

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## Basil77

> Нда, дадут кому-то по башке очень сильно за эту ошибку с датами.

 С медалькой этой вообще история тёмная. Минобороны информацию о ней до сих пор официально не подтвердило. Единственное видео, где нечто подобное фигурирует:    
Как можно заметить, медаль там выглядит совершенно иначе. Хотя, официальных опровержений пока тоже не слышно. 
С другой стороны, подготовительная фаза операции вполне могла начаться 20 февраля. Другое дело, что окончательное решение перейти к активной фазе наверняка принималось всё-таки позднее. Ну и, если медаль всё-таки настоящая, то, конечно, это было глупо - указывать на ней такую дату.

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## Hanna

> American goverment cancelled announced in September 2013 tender for reconstruction of Sevastopol public school #5 into USA Navy ingeneering facility: P.S. For me, personally, this fact alone justifies all Putin's actions in Crimea.

 omg, Yes. I know it's not my country and not my business but I have to admit that I agree with Basil77. If this had gone on, there would have been a full fledged NATO base there within a few years.  Apologies to it-ogo but it really makes me sick.
Clearly there is NO sea that NATO can leave alone.  
NATO is using the Ukraine situation as an excuse to be zooming around with warships in the Baltic Sea, where they have NO business. That's MY sea, I grew up on the shore of that. I don't want NATO there!!!  It's a matter of time before they set up shop in some old USSR naval base in one of the Baltic state and turn the whole Baltic sea into a playground for war games, annoying Russia and creating unnecessary tensions. I firmly believe in neutrality for our countries, and the status quo as it was was GOOD.  
But NATO just can't leave our little sea alone, and clearly they had designs on the Black Sea as well! As far as I am concerned it's good that Russia stopped it in the Black Sea. What the hell business does the USA have there;  their country is on the other side of the freaking Atlantic!  
It wouldn't surprise me if they set something up in the Baltic states now, as a revenge that they couldn't get what they wanted in Crimea. We are probably next on the "roadmap" and if they target the Baltics they'll get whatever they point at and Russia will not (want) to do anything about it. Maybe I am reading too much into it but I get furious just thinking about the idea.    

> Минобороны РФ подтвердило  начало военной операции по "возвращению Крыма" 20-го февраля 2014 года.  Янукович тогда еще был действующим президентом Украины. Также это дата  начала расстрелов людей на Майдане.

 Oh dear. Who's going to get one of these medals then? 
I am guessing Russia is planning the parade of all parades for 9 May in Crimea. 
I think Russia should be really careful in all dealings concerning Crimea with Ukraine. It was good to read that everyone who wants to keep their UA citizenship can do that.

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## it-ogo

> omg, Yes. I know it's not my country and not my business but I have to admit that I agree with Basil77. If this had gone on, there would have been a full fledged NATO base there within a few years.  Apologies to it-ogo but it really makes me sick.

 I feel myself an idiot. As many times as I read that text I didn't find anything about turning school into NATO facility. All I found is a facade renovation and windows replacement. 
In the late 90s our scientific laboratory won NATO grant and got about $3000 for trips and expendibles. In exchange we mentioned that grant in the acknowledgements section of our scientific articles and that is all. We deal with fundamental physics, that was never secret and up to now our laboratory did not turn into NATO facility. Probably I missed something.   

> Oh dear. Who's going to get one of these medals then?

 Well one is given to Aksenov, the formal ruler of Crimea after invasion (that one with a party of 3% rating on the last elections in Crimea.)

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## Ramil

> I feel myself an idiot. As many times as I read that text I didn't find anything about turning school into NATO facility. All I found is a facade renovation and windows replacement.

 With the abundance of 'free speech' some of us has lost the ability to 'read between the lines'. What? The US Navy dept. suddenly felt charitable enough to simply go and rennovate a school on the other end of the world? Yeah, sure.

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## it-ogo

> With the abundance of 'free speech' some of us has lost the ability to 'read between the lines'.

 With the absense of free speech some of you has lost the ability not to read between the lines and clouds.   

> What? The US Navy dept. suddenly felt charitable enough to simply go and rennovate a school on the other end of the world? Yeah, sure.

 Yeah, sure. Sometimes they just do that as my experience says. Probably they spend some money to improve their reputation. Nevertheless I was able to benefit from that for free. And the school wasn't.

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## Ramil

> Yeah, sure. Sometimes they just do that as my experience says. Probably they spend some money to improve their reputation. Nevertheless I was able to benefit from that for free. And the school wasn't.

 Amen. That Blessed Who Believes. I don't.

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## it-ogo

> Amen. That Blessed Who Believes. I don't.

 What exactly don't you believe in? Our grant?

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## Ramil

> What exactly don't you believe in? Our grant?

 The good intentions of the US Navy dept.

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## Hanna

Maybe I was reading a lot into the renovation of a school, but it was to become a NATO school, wasn't it? 
And with a broke, anti-Russian government in Ukraine, how long until the US could bribe themselves to set up a small facility in Crimea... and before you know it, you are stuck with a base that you couldn't get rid of come hell or high waters... 
I don't know why they haven't set something up in the Baltic states - it's probably on its way. 
I know they are lobbying like MAD for Sweden and Finland to join NATO. What's happening in Ukraine right now is playing right into the hands of the NATO lobbyists. The public opinion against NATO has never been weaker - people really bought into the "dangerous" Russia and terrorism talk. Plus a few papers have openly started supporting it. I am afraid that it's only a matter of time.  
They really DO want to surround Russia with their bases. All evidence supports it. 
And once their bases are in your country, you are nothing but a pawn in the game! So long as your interests don't majorly conflict with the USA's - fine. But if you ever have interests that seriously conflict with the USA, you have a big fat Trojan horse, possibly with nukes on your territory. Or a neighboring country. It really spooks me. That is the reality in Continental Europe, but in Scandinavia we have been mostly free from that - but that bugs them! 
In Japan they can't get the USA out of Okinawa. In Afghanistan, the USA hangs on like a leech clinging to its host against even the wishes of their own handpicked guy. They are still around in the shadows in Iraq with privately employed soldiers. They have to bribe and play dirty not to get evicted from Central Asia and many Europeans would be very happy to see the back of them.  *I swear they had their eyes on Crimea. I have no doubt about it, and many commentators support it.* 
If NATO wasn't so darn expansionist and aggressive, Russia could stop being some kind of paranoid chess player who may or may not be 'cheating" with green men and other tricks. I think the Eastern Europeans made a mistake when they joined NATO in the general mayhem of the 1990s. They should have taken a decade to let things settle and think everything through. But they got more or less hijacked, going against the agreement between the US and Russia about NATO expansion in the East. As a result we are seeing an increasingly paranoid Russia, and it seems justified to me at least. I think NATO was just about to get its clutches into Ukraine and that they've been pulling strings for a long time to get to that point.

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## Crocodile

> Россия запретила Джемилеву въезд в Крым http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/04/22/7023214/ 
> Депортация пока что не массовая...

 Я тут ещё вот что вспомнил (извини за длинную копипасту):   

> Ю́рий Алекса́ндрович Мешко́в (род. 25 октября 1945 года, УССР, СССР) — крымский государственный и политический деятель. В 1994—1995 годах первый и единственный Президент Республики Крым (АРК в составе Украины).  
> На январь 1994 были назначены первые президентские выборы в республике. Началась предвыборная кампания. Кандидат в Президенты Крыма Ю. А. Мешков пережил покушение: возвращаясь вечером с заседания, получил удар металлическим прутом по затылку.  
> Будучи хорошим, ярким оратором, Мешков быстро завоевал популярность у населения Крыма. 30 января 1994 года, возглавив избирательный блок «Россия», победил во втором туре выборов Президента Автономной Республики Крым, получив 72,9 % голосов.  
> Политической предвыборной платформой Мешкова при этом стал курс на сближение с Россией, вплоть до полного присоединения. В частности, Юрий Мешков был намерен ввести в Крыму рублёвую зону, заключить с Россией военно-политический союз, предоставить жителям Крыма российское гражданство, ввести московское время, и т. п.  
> Вскоре после избрания на пост президента, в интервью газете «Крымский курьер» Мешков заявил:  
> «Крымчане сделали свой выбор, проголосовав за единение с Россией, за восстановление экономических отношений, за восстановление военно-политического союза с Россией, за всё то, что было провозглашено РДК ещё в августе 1991 года. Это позволит прежде всего спастись всем гражданам Республики Крым от окончательного краха того, что раньше называлось экономикой. Естественно, этого достичь невозможно, если следовать курсу, предложенному киевским руководством на отрыв от России».  
> Юрий Мешков был лишён поста 17 марта 1995 года, в соответствии с Законом Украины «Об отмене Конституции и некоторых законов Автономной Республики Крым», которым фактически ликвидировался суверенитет Республики Крым (1992—1995 гг.) и она преобразовывалась в Автономную Республику Крым — лишённую суверенитета административно-территориальную автономию в составе Украины.  
> 2 июля 2011 года Юрий Мешков приехал в Симферополь, в связи с гибелью его жены Людмилы. После приезда Мешков встретился с журналистами и дал пресс-конференцию, в ходе которой сделал ряд заявлений политического характера.   *13 июля 2011 года Окружной административный суд Крыма поддержал постановление Службы безопасности Украины о выдворении гражданина Российской Федерации Мешкова с территории Украины с ограничением въезда на 5 лет.*  
> 12 марта 2014 года, после объявления незасимости Крыма и в преддверии проведения референдума о статусе Крыма, Юрий Александрович Мешков получил возможность вернуться в Крым. В аэропорту Симферополя он сказал: «Народ Крыма вернул мне Родину».

 Понимаю, что, конечно, не пускать популярного политика домой в Крым на пять лет - это можно только Украине, ибо есть демократия и свобода слова, а РФ нельзя ибо ни демократии не свободы слова нет. Это я так, к слову.

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## Полуношник

Кадыров построит новую мечеть в Севастополе Кадыров построит новую мечеть в Севастополе - Новости общества и общественной жизни - МК 
Это им вместо ремонта школы.

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## Crocodile

Так запретили въезд или нет?   

> "Решением президиума Государственного совета Республики Крым был утвержден список лиц, чье пребывание на территории Крыма является нежелательным. В этот список бывший лидер Крымско-татарского меджлиса, а ныне народный депутат украинского парламента Мустафа Джемилев не входит. Поэтому любые обвинения с его стороны крымской власти о том, что мы своими решениями препятствуем его свободному въезду или выезду на территорию Республики Крым, являются безосновательными", — пояснил заместитель председателя Государственного совета Республики Крым Константин Бахарев.

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## BappaBa

Беременные анижедети ни разу не фашисты, просто им нужны Крым и Кубань. И мотивчик такой знакомый, да, Лампада?

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## Lampada

> Беременные анижедети ни разу не фашисты, просто им нужны Крым и Кубань. И мотивчик такой знакомый, да, Лампада?   ...

 Вот только что познакомилась:  
Звучит натурально, но кто-то считает, что это подделка.

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## Crocodile

> Звучит натурально, но кто-то считает, что это подделка.

 Интересно, а авторететное мнение ит-ого для тебя больше ничего не значит? Он абсолютно серьёзно и с уверенностью заявил, что работа СБУ - это обманывать собственное население. Вроде, ты читала и не возражала. А данный разговор предоставлен именно СБУ: Баркашов советует "впарить" Донецку итоги референдума - BBC Russian - В мире
Выводы каждый делает сам.  ::

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## Sibiriak

09.05.2014 БЕЗ КОММЕНТАРИЕВ: ВЛАДИМИР ПУТИН ПРИБЫЛ В СЕВАСТОПОЛЬ

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## Hanna

Well, I got home yesterday, just in time to watch most of the* voting in Eurovision* and had quite the shock....  http://www.youtube.com/results?sourc...oed+eurovision 
I could NOT believe my ears, when the audience in Copenhagen *booed every time a country voted for  Russia or Belarus!*  
I didn't hear either song, so I can't say if they were good, but I fairly am sure it was not the_ songs_ that were being booed.  
It happened several times. I am not aware that any country has been deliberately booed before, and I've watched this darn thing at least 20 times.  
And obviously, the bearded lady from Austria: Media in some countries run stories saying that Russia and Belarus tried to stop this transsexual from being in the final. I have no idea whether it's true or not. Definitely a futile struggle, they should not have bothered, if they did. "LGBT"  is the chicest thing you can be at the moment, and anyone who says anything about it will have their character assasinated in media.  
Probably the booing was not even related to supposed discrimination of this transsexual though, but Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, where they've been told that Russia is an evil villain.  
Also the commentators made some rather snarky comments on the feed I listened to, which they would not have made against any other country, I'm pretty sure. 
Googled and voila, yes - others noticed, several papers wrote about it.  
Apparently there was booing in the semi-finals too, even more - I didn't watch that.  
I wonder how much of the Eurovision budget Russia pays - guessing it's  quite a fair chunk, the big countries pay the most. Maybe Russia should  just pull out and take its money with it. It's just humiliating for the  artists and the country. Or do you go on, in a situation like that to  not give in to bullying? I don't know but I have NEVER seen a country  get booed in Eurovision. 
It was before my time, but several fascist dictatatorships used to  particpate: Spain, Greece and Portugal back in the days. I doubt anyone  booed them. During the Cold War era a few Eastern countries participated  on and off and I vaguely recall it. No booing then either.  Media did not stir people up with agitation like they practically do today.

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## UhOhXplode

@ Hanna: There was obviously a lot of uncivilized people at Eurovision this year. And any musical contest that attracts political thugs loses it's rep as a legit contest. Eurovision = Epic Fail in 2014. 
Anyway, I'm not all over pop music but I definitely thought Shine owned Rise Like A phoenix. And whatever that Conchita Worst thing was could give someone nightmares! I hope I never see anything like that again! 
The Donetsk and Lugansk referendum votes started at 08:00 (their time). The Donetsk voting stations will be open till 22:00 (their time) but some places will have to close at 15:00 (their time) due to dangerous conditions in cities like Slavyansk. And only 8 voting stations could be opened in Mariupol. All the cities are on high alert for provocations intended to disrupt the vote.
Anyway, we should start hearing something after 14:00 (my time) - 00:00 (Moscow time)... I think I'm getting jet lag.

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## eisenherz

regarding Eurovision; in my opinion 'Austria' was actually one of the the best performances/song and Conchita a deserving winner (though personally I liked the contribution from Holland the most). As too the booing on points to Russia I find that just as wrong and misplaced as Russia/Belarus trying to have Conchita disqualified/discredited before the final.

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## eisenherz

> I wonder how much of the Eurovision budget Russia pays - guessing it's  quite a fair chunk, the big countries pay the most. Maybe Russia should  just pull out and take its money with it. .

 the way I understand is that the orginal sort of founding countries pay the big chunk of the budget. i think Sweden, German, France, Italy, Spain and some others are amongst them. they pay the most - and in return they have automatic entry to the finals. Russia has a massive budget; but for themselves and not as contribution to the event. If Russia should pull out makes no difference financially to the event; but culturally it would be a loss.

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## Lampada

Крым пережил первый наплыв туристов - Первый канал   http://www.1tv.ru/news/social/258485

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## Sibiriak

Севастополь Крым Уникальные кадры 1993 года

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