# Forum About Russia Politics  North Korean strike timed?

## Nerms

Days after an apparent new nuke plant was revealed (in N Korea) we get an artillery strike apparently killing 2 civilians.  Was this timed?

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## Hanna

South Korea and the USA were carrying out a military exercise RIGHT on the border of North Korea. North Korea warned them; "if you fire rockets over our airspace, then we will retaliate." SK and the US fired rockets over North Korean airspace, despite the warning... . North Korea retaliated, as they had said they would. 
The story as it appeared in mainstream Western papers was heavily skewed. Ie propaganda.   *Why must the USA and South Korea have exercises on the border of North Korea?*  
I think it is because they want every opportunity to depict North Korea as a very dangerous and evil country, to pave the way for future US control of North Korea.  In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone. But they are sitting on some prime real estate in Asia and I think the US would love the idea of occupying the WHOLE Korean peninsula, not just the South. Very snug location at the crossroads of Asia, on the border with China and very close to Vladivostok.  
I think both North Korea and South Korea are playing very clever mind games with each other. 
As for the nuclear capabilities of North Korea: What a joke. Nobody in the world is afraid of that. Using nukes is suicidal and the only reason a country wants it is as a deterrent to an invasion.  South Korea already has US nukes. Furthermore North Korea says it wants nuclear power because it can't afford oil and has sersious energy shortages. *  What have Russian papers been saying about this? *

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## Ramil

Nothing special, I think N. Korea facing upcoming food shortage needs some action to tell its people that they're hungry because of the southerners and the Americans.

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## Nerms

From my understanding North Korea fired missles over Japan.  I also believed we warned them not to as well.  Based on that we are then free to start bombing whatever we see fit.  Because we warned you.  Or is that propadanga?  I also believe these excercises have been occuring for sometime say 40 years.  Seems a little late to start shelling cilivians. 
Why must the USA and South Korea have exercises on the border of North Korea?
Where else would they be held Las Vegas?  These joint excerises have been going on for some time.  This is not some new phenomenon.  
As for the nuclear capabilities of North Korea: What a joke. Nobody in the world is afraid of that.
One nuclear bomb is no joke.  And that is plenty to be worried about.  Actually i dont think its sucide to fire a nuke if the otherside does not have one.  S Korea nor Japan have a nuclear device.  I am pretty sure if the N Korea did fire a nuclear bomb at the South the reprecussions would not be sucide.  Because the US would not fire a nuke at them.  Cant China would probably declare war on the US.            
In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone.
That cant be true.  If you want to be left alone you dont sink your neighbors sub.  Shell there people.  Attempt to fire missles over Japan immediately after you just successfully underground tested a nuclear bomb. You dont threaten them with anniliation on a regular basis.  Maybe thats what you call trying to be left alone...but i dont. 
Furthermore North Korea says it wants nuclear power because it can't afford oil and has sersious energy shortages.
Its possible and easier to do this an not have weapons grade material.  That has not been the approach they have taken.  Rather they have gone out of there way to develop weapons grade material.  Now who is spewing propaganda. 
But they are sitting on some prime real estate in Asia and I think the US would love the idea of occupying the WHOLE Korean peninsula, not just the South. Very snug location at the crossroads of Asia, on the border with China and very close to Vladivostok.
How exactly are we going to own this real estate?  Do we own Germany?  Do we own France?  Do we own Japan?  Do we own South Korea?  Do we own Afghanistan?  Do we own Iraq?  If anything all of these places have become are worst competiors and headaches for us. 
I am not sure how you sleep at night.  You rush to the defense of a horrible dictator.  But i suppose you probably think that is propaganda as well.

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## Ramil

Well then, before I start, I wan't to state that I am most certainly not advocating N. Korea here.
Still, I'm pretty sure that US owns Iraq and Afghanistan, and probably France and Germany as well ))) What I mean is that US 'diplomacy' dictates many things other countries have to live with. Some Western European countries are more skilled at this game sometimes manage to work around this 'American inconvenience' and even try to swindle back some benefits. What concerns so called 'third world' I would say that US not merely owns the puppet governments they put there but in some sense they govern these countries. CIA controls nearly two thirds of world's heroin production and still they say they want 'peace' in Afghanistan.  ::  It's all for money.
Now, about North Korea - I seriously doubt North Korea poses a threat to anyone but themselves. Who in Washington would want to have a united Korea there with further integration of the South-East Asia? Who would want to weaken US political influence there? US military would then have to pack and leave the region entirely and the US military is the only thing US economical powers rests upon right now. If they really wanted, the North Korean government could be overthrown within several weeks from within. But nobody in the West wants that. Having some limited conflict there gives US a legitimate reason to stay there, ask for funding of this in Congress, to give jobs to tens of thousands of military and civilian personnel, etc. It is economically impractical for the US to unite Korea. A little war would be even better, but wars tend to get out of hand so they're very careful right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the North was provoked (but you won't see this on Fox News).

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## Nerms

How exact do we diplomatically dictate anything to Germany? Are you saying we rig there elections? If we dictate what goes on how then did the Euro come about? This is the prime competion for the dollar and has caused the dollar to to become less stable because of it. Which has caused the value of dollars being held by the welath billionares to become worth less valueable on the open market. Certainly if we controlled Europe we would not have let the EURO come about. The only influence we have there is the influence they give us. Which is considerable less then you think it is. Far less then owning it. If we dipolamtically controlled Europe we should also have unbeliable trade deals with them. Which we dont. We run a trade defict with them and have for a long time. How exactly can we be so damn powerful as you allege and be so completly incompentent.  
Here we go with the military complex theory again. For one I have met many US generals as a military brat. In large part they are not that smart. You act like they are some master puppeters. The military is only 5% of the US ecomony. 5% of the economy is not the crazy gestalt you make it out to be. Yet again if it is how exactly did Obama or Clinton get elected. For that matter how did this crazy insane military complex let the Soviet Union collapse. You probably think that 911 was in inside job also. Also i am not going to argue with someone who thinks the CIA controls 2/3 of the herion production. That is outright conspiracy clap trap.

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## Ramil

As for Europe -- I didn't say you control their economy, but US probably CAN ruin any european economy within days (this is already a form control). Then there's NATO. US dollar isn't worth a tenth of its current market value. Then, when US says that this country is bad and noone's to deal with it everyone else obeys even against their interests and sometimes -- against plain logic.  Third world deals with dollars because if they don't there will be another 'peace keeping operation' in their region. And of course us dollar is the ONLY reserve world's currency and everyone's aware of that. Euro cannot compete with dollar, in fact Euro is probably even less stable to begin with. Federal Reserve prints green paper in trillions and exchanges them with something of real value (oil, gold, energy plants, real estate, etc). IN EXCHANGE OF GREEN PAPER!
Do you think the rest of the world is just so stupid that nobody sees that? Everybody knows, but who's going to argue with  aircraft carriers and cruise missiles scattered all over the world? 
About heroin - you can dig out the stats. During the period of American occupation the heroin production has QUADRUPLED there. Taliban used to burn the fields and was the only government there who managed to actually reduce it. (No, I'm not a Taliban sympathizer, but I don't flee from the facts). Americans have their faults but they were never known to give anything for free. It's against their nature. So when they say that the military's there to protect someone else's interests I laugh.  
You say that the generals are not that smart, that's true for the most of them, but I doubt those who make real decisions are that stupid, and of course there're politicians around to order things around.

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## Hanna

_Interesting comment above. Yes, I think that the US could ruin any European country it choose to, pretty quickly if it wanted. And if financial sanctions and  media propaganda didn't do the job, then they have more soldiers in Europe than any individual European country and plenty of weapons, including nukes._ 
But I didn't know any of those facts about the Afghan heroin! Go figure! 
Nerms you are debating with people who are not American and don't see the world from an American perspective.  
Why would we want America to dominate our countries, or anyone elses?
We are able to look at America objectively, while you have a biased view since it's your own nationality and since you watch news channels like Fox (propaganda news, according to everyone east of the atlantic).  
I'd like it better if North America consisted of smaller countries, like Europe, instead of one giant country that can never seem to get enough control over the the world (financially, in terms of oil and politically)  
I *hope* that the financial downturn will cause America to lose it's grip over the rest of the world and become a normal country that minds its own business instead of telling everybody else how to run their countries while cringing them junk culture/food and buying up their natural resources.

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## Nerms

I lived in Europe for 5 years.  I am well aware of European's opinion.  Which was quite a shock when i lived there.  What i learned then is what I am relearning now.  Its pointless to argue.  I do not concede the point.  But i will concede its pointless to argue.   
I can say one thing the economic downturn is kicking us hard.  I know this because i can just look around at my work at stores.  So i am sure you should be happy about that.  But if everything you say is true....you should be more afraid of us now more then ever.   
I will now go eat my wheaties with my apple pie while watching american football and fox new while polishing my .45 and singing God Bless America.  Or whatever the current sterotype of an American is.

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## Ramil

Personally I don't see a single reason why US need so many military bases scattered all over the world, but well, if you really need them badly -- it's up to you. I know you'll need them for defense against those who hate all Americans, but really, maybe it's time to think it over and ask yourself why half of the world hates USA? (I used to be one of them too, but reconsidered. It's your politicians that I don't disagree with, but many Americans I know personally and from this forum are quite nice, actually). 
But as they say, being determines consciousness, so you'll never see the world from my perspective and I'll never see it from yours.   ::  One thing I can agree with you -- the arguments ARE pointless. So, I'll just go put my fur hat on, drink some vodka and go scare a few bears from the streets singing the International.

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## it-ogo

> I will now go...

  

> So, I'll just go...

  :: 
A real gentleman is eager to take a pedestrian path go even before another gentleman provides him with the destination. 
I wonder where Hanna is going to go...

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## sperk

> I wonder where Hanna is going to go...

 В Америку! ::

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## it-ogo

Nope, she'll go to her Swedish family to have a *Smörgåsbord with herring and eel listening ABBA and Ace of base.*

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## Ramil

> *Smörgåsbord*

 ZOMG! That's how they call it. )))

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## Hanna

> Nope, she'll go to her Swedish family to have a *Smörgåsbord with herring and eel listening ABBA and Ace of base.*

 Haha!!! After that I'll have sex under the midnight sun, ride a raindeer and brush my blonde hair... It's so great in Sweden!!! 
(oops I am in exile in the UK and it's raining all the time.... and the whole country is falling to pieces with the new Tory governments "reforms".)

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## Crocodile

> Haha!!! After that I'll have sex under the midnight sun, ride a raindeer and brush my blonde hair...

 Way to go, Brünhild!  ::

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## Eric C.

> In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone

 Do the people of N. Korea want to be left alone with that dictatorship? I bet you wouldn't. If the crappy dictator turns the people into animals and doesn't actually plan to turn them back, then I suppose, intervention of the world community is really needed.

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## Nerms

To save some of your time Eric.  You are about to engage in arguing with a brick wall. 
Ill try an explain where they are coming from.  To allieviate your curiosity. 
They think the people in North Korea probably dont live under that much hardship.  Its probably just US propaganda so we can sell more McDonalds hamburgers or to sell more military aircraft etc.  They will then say they probably have more rights then Americans, why dont you liberate yourselves first.
And even if they did live under great hardship( which remains to be seen) a war is far worse then the cure.  Its better that the situation be left alone and let it sort itself out naturally.  Military presense itself is what causes Kim to act the way he does.  If we left, things would be much better for them anyhow.  Kim would likely be nicer to them feed them more in there cages.  And even if we ejected Kim its likely the ensuing chaos some new dictator would emerge.  This is there great wisdom.  They feel the US is a loose cannon who cant see farther then the barrel of there gun.  That the US is far more of a dictator then Kim has or ever will be.  This belief system in large part comes from a strong pacifist tendency that has developed for many reasons.  That concludes my explaination, I hope i saved some time of your life.

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## Ramil

Nerms, you're laying a bit thick. We're not that unreasonable.    

> Do the people of N. Korea want to be left alone with that dictatorship? I bet you wouldn't.

 They would. You wouldn't probably believe it, but they ADORE their government (most of them). There is some dissent, of course, but they're told that their lives are miserable because of the South and the Americans and they believe it. It's hard to believe for you, maybe, because you don't know how propaganda brainwashing can affect human minds, but those like me who was born in the USSR times will understand and believe this. In order for N. Korean government to fall you'd need several years of heavy couter-propaganda campaign first. Military assault on North Korea will only strengthen their resolve - they will defend not only their home, but the very core of their ideas about what's right and what's wrong.
Asians do not think individually, but consider themselves as a part of whole, a nation. They have collectivist minds and individual values do not loom very large in their views.

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## Hanna

I have actually been in North Korea. It was in the late 1980s or maybe 1990, and I was in my teens. It's very poor country! Everything new looked like it was modelled on the USSR although the quality seemed worse. However, they had really nice public facilities like a swimming pool complex, amusement park, adventure playgrounds and some good museums, both in the capital and in another city that my brother and I went to. There were colourful murals and mosaics on the walls and traditional costumes were common.  
All the people we spoke to seemed really sweet, honest and friendly. We spent a great day on the beach there - that was just like in any other country. However we were with a guide all the time. There were almost no shops, anywhere. We were taller than absolutely everyone in the whole country! 
I didn't know anything about the country before arriving, other than my that my father warned my brother and I not to say anything negative about Kim-Il-Sen (president) because it would be offensive to the North Koreans and might cause trouble for him. Kim Il Sen was like a god there, but my brother and I had never even heard of him. It seemed silly to us and we joked about it quite a lot.  *
But the adoration of the people for Kim Il Sen felt very genuine. He is a liberation hero to them.*  It seemed like the whole country had a one united purpose; restoring national pride after Japanese occupation for decades, and rebuilding the country which was flattened by the USA in the Korean war. It felt a bit like the whole country was in a big project together.  *
There was so much pride in their country - despite it being poor* - which they knew. The thing they were proud about was how fast they rebuild the country from total destruction.  Japan as a colonial power treated Korea terribly... and just when they were beginning to recover from that; the whole country is bombed to pieces by the USA. Who can blame them for being a bit paranoid?   
I came away thinking the country was poor, a bit strange but that the people were very proud, but nice. I don't think the average person there felt very oppressed - at least not when I was there. But of course, I didn't ask.. and there might be plenty of people who felt that way, that i never saw.  
But from media reports its clear that they have quite gruesome prisons; a bit like "gulags". Probably the state meddles far too much in peoples life, but that's true for lots of countries.  *
The biggest problem they have now must surely be that they have food shortages and no medicines or oil/electicity. Anyone who really cared about North Koreans should try to help with that.*  
The Koreans should be left to sort out their differences without any meddling by any other country. I neither support North Korea, nor would I wish it to be overthrown. How the Koreans live in their own country is not my problem. 
On the flight back to Japan my dad said that North Korea owed his company millions; it just took delivery of some goods a few years earlier, and never paid a penny. The trip had been about trying to secure payment in return for spare parts that they needed.  *Plus, I agree with Ramil: Asians LIKE to be in a collective and follow a leader who they worship. It's part of their culture...*Happens in Japan too, in businesses and with the emperor before that. And in China etc.

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## capecoddah

I've been in North Cuba and I know it doesn't work. _Turn in your Che Guevara shirt and be done with the classless society garbage.__You would be better off drinking heavily with me and Ramil looking for UFOs. (Yes, I'm still looking forward to that) _

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## gRomoZeka

> The Koreans should be left to sort out their differences without any meddling by any other country. I neither support North Korea, nor would I wish it to be overthrown. How the Koreans live in their own country is not my problem.

 I can't agree more.
USA interference only fuels the conflict between two Koreas, and the image of N. Korea as evil country is blown out of proportion. I also don't particularly like that USA keeps ruining other states by breaking them into pieces in the process of "peacemaking."

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## Hanna

I disagree with everything you say but the UFO smiley is very funny.    

> I've been in North Cuba and I know it doesn't work.

 _Aren't you breaking American law by going there? Or did you go to some US controlled island nearby, rather than Cuba itself? _  
So you "know" it doesn't work? On what basis? On the grounds that there aren't enough McDonald's and big gas-guzzling cars? Not enough commercials on TV and super-obese people walking the streets? No American airbase just outside the capital?  
People are NOT starving in Cuba, they  have no drug wars like in Mexico, better organized than Haiti or Jamaica ever were, no beggars like elsewhere in South America, low crime, free decent education and free health care. No sweat-shops like elsewhere in Latin America.  They even dropped the death penalty.  
Some say a society should be judged on how it treats its poor and needy: In Cuba, anyone is guaranteed a job, a roof over his head, free medical care and free good education, suited to his abilities.  
               One of the main reasons that it still a poor country is that the worlds largest economy, and their neighbour, has done its' best to strangle their economy, for what, 50 years?  Economic blockade etc. And even tried to invade their country! Maybe you should look closer to home before you criticize Cuba! 
             The people there overthrew one corrupt government before, and no doubt they will do it again if they get sufficiently unhappy! Personally I would guess that perhaps they are comparing their situation with the rest of Latin America, and with the experience of Eastern Europe in the 1990s.  And based on that they prefer to keep the status quo for the time being despite the problems.   
They still have their dignity as an independent country and there is good hope that things may improve in the future.  I understand people are really well educated there and that can only be good for the country. Apparently they also started co-operating with Venezuela which has plenty of oil.

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## Eric C.

> USA interference only fuels the conflict between two Koreas, and the image of N. Korea as evil country is blown out of proportion. I also don't particularly like that USA keeps ruining other states by breaking them into pieces in the process of "peacemaking."

 WTF? Was it US who cut the peninsula into two pieces? The US was the one who tried to keep the commie cancer off the other part of the country after it had been cut. The whole nation of South Korea should say thanks to the US for not being rabbits looking for grass for their dinner.

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## Nerms

Hanna, 
If the purpose of you writing these posts is to vent, then vent away.  If the purpose is to get your comrades up in arms then continue to do so.  "IF" the purpose of your posts is to change American minds you have now gone down a road that will do the opposite.  Before this post even started i was willing to concede we (the US) needed to close most our bases around the world.  You can check under a different view of the US...or something like that....one of my post was near the end.  You are now changing my mind in the opposite direction.  I am beginning to think we need those bases to protect ourselves from people like you.  And i suspect if someone was on the fence you have shoved them to the side you dont want them on. 
Its your call thou.  I believe in free speech, and dont want you to feel silenced.

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## it-ogo

> Hanna, 
> If the purpose of you writing these posts is to vent, then vent away.  If the purpose is to get your comrades up in arms then continue to do so.  "IF" the purpose of your posts is to change American minds you have now gone down a road that will do the opposite.  Before this post even started i was willing to concede we (the US) needed to close most our bases around the world.  You can check under a different view of the US...or something like that....one of my post was near the end.  You are now changing my mind in the opposite direction.  I am beginning to think we need those bases to protect ourselves from people like you.

 So, basically USA need all those bases around the world to protect USA from Swedish girls, who don't like militarists?

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## Nerms

No from people all over the world who have her exact mind set.

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## it-ogo

> No from people all over the world who have her exact mind set.

 That is from pacifists?

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## Eric C.

> I disagree with everything you say but the UFO smiley is very funny.     _Aren't you breaking American law by going there? Or did you go to some US controlled island nearby, rather than Cuba itself? _  
> So you "know" it doesn't work? On what basis? On the grounds that there aren't enough McDonald's and big gas-guzzling cars? Not enough commercials on TV and super-obese people walking the streets? No American airbase just outside the capital?  
> People are NOT starving in Cuba, they  have no drug wars like in Mexico, better organized than Haiti or Jamaica ever were, no beggars like elsewhere in South America, low crime, free decent education and free health care. No sweat-shops like elsewhere in Latin America.  They even dropped the death penalty.  
> Some say a society should be judged on how it treats its poor and needy: In Cuba, anyone is guaranteed a job, a roof over his head, free medical care and free good education, suited to his abilities.  
>                One of the main reasons that it still a poor country is that the worlds largest economy, and their neighbour, has done its' best to strangle their economy, for what, 50 years?  Economic blockade etc. And even tried to invade their country! Maybe you should look closer to home before you criticize Cuba! 
>              The people there overthrew one corrupt government before, and no doubt they will do it again if they get sufficiently unhappy! Personally I would guess that perhaps they are comparing their situation with the rest of Latin America, and with the experience of Eastern Europe in the 1990s.  And based on that they prefer to keep the status quo for the time being despite the problems.   
> They still have their dignity as an independent country and there is good hope that things may improve in the future.  I understand people are really well educated there and that can only be good for the country. Apparently they also started co-operating with Venezuela which has plenty of oil.

 I reread your post, Hanna, having come up with a single argument:* they get paid $15 a month.* 
If you have counter-arguments, you are welcome.

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## it-ogo

> I reread your post, Hanna, having come up with a single argument:* they get paid $15 a month.*

 So, if you bomb them a little, it will solve the problem?

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## Nerms

Her and people with her views of vitrole and hate towards the US can quickly leap to a gun or a nuke.  Her and people like her's support of dictators around the world leaves me with little room to move.   Our views on good or bad are so alien, i am beginning to think its safer to keep those bases.  Why take a chance?

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## Nerms

after all what do you have to worry about.  apparently we are to stupid and fat to make it to the battlefield.  will have a heart attack before we get there and the worlds problems will be over right.

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## Eric C.

> So, if you bomb them a little, it will solve the problem?

 Their economy doesn't work because something's stopping it. If _something_ is destroyed, that might start solving the problem.

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## Nerms

she and people like her would say $15 a month is not what gives people there human diginity.  That would be her counter argument.  which i would agree with.  But if you cant practice your religion or speak against castro and in general if your not free to just be yourself then you really dont have much human diginity.  Of course then the argument they will make is that is a complete fabrication.  And then here we are deadlocked.  And of course the US caused it all.  And your wrong about some sort of blockage.  I can goto cuba if i wanted.  I would need premission.  The thing as an American that cant do is sell or buy from them without premission.  Also Hanna if you wanted or anyone else in the world wanted to goto Cuba they are free to.  Tourist from around the world go there all the time.

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## gRomoZeka

> And your wrong about some sort of blockage.  I can goto cuba if i wanted.  I would need premission. The thing as an American that cant do is sell or buy from them without premission.

 How does it make her wrong? Economical blockage is exactly what she was talking about. United States embargo against Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
PS. Do you mean that you need a permission to go to Cuba from your government? Or did you mean Cuban visa?

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## Nerms

On the propaganda box the state issues us in the US.  They had 1 Cuban exiled doctor (now a US citizen) who goes there (Cuba) to render medical assistance performing cataract surgery and mostly eye related issues.  He knows there is a risk that who could get put in jail.  But they leave him alone because he promises to not say anything against the regieme.  But again this is probably just US propaganda.

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## it-ogo

> Her and people with her views of vitrole and hate towards the US can quickly leap to a gun or a nuke.  Her and people like her's support of dictators around the world leaves me with little room to move.   Our views on good or bad are so alien, i am beginning to think its safer to keep those bases.  Why take a chance?

 It does not guarantee the result. While she exists you can not feel safe. You have to kill all those people like her until they did not kill you. Then you should settle a control over all who remained and check each month with lie detector, and if they suddenly start to support dictators or hate US, kill immediately. This is the only way to save democracy.   

> Their economy doesn't work because something's stopping it. If _something_ is destroyed, that might start solving the problem.

 There were some financial problems in USA recently. Also the system of medical care is a bit... insane. Maybe small bombing would help?

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## Romik

Eric C.  

> I reread your post, Hanna, having come up with a single argument: they get paid $15 a month.

 Maybe you should do it again (reread)? How can they earn more if there is "Economic blockade"? I'm against communism but your point isn't fair in that conditions.

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## Nerms

if she was referring to an ecomonic blockade (US Cuban goods in out) then yes we have that.  If you are referring to a "blockade" where no one is allowed in or out then that would be incorrect.
I could charter a boat to Cuba and do what i wanted etc.  nobody would stop me except maybe the cubans.  But I am supposed to inform the US goverment of my intention to goto Cuba. When, where, and for how long.  The VISA would be another matter.  The reprecussions of going without informing them are unknown to me.  The could of course deny me the request if the felt inclined to.  But yet again I am an American this could all be propaganda.

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## Eric C.

> There were some financial problems in USA recently. Also the system of medical care is a bit... insane. Maybe small bombing would help?

 The US economy does work. Also, the health care system is excellent, in my opinion (and those who happened to need to be put in a hospital with a non-lethal disease and were smart enough to be carrying insurance would agree with me, unlike those in the third world who are dying because of lack of proper medical equipment and medical staff doing nothing to help them). Also, I didn't say anything about bombing.

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## Nerms

> It does not guarantee the result. While she exists you can not feel safe. You have to kill all those people like her until they did not kill you. Then you should settle a control over all who remained and check each month with lie detector, and if they suddenly start to support dictators or hate US, kill immediately. This is the only way to save democracy.

 I do not subsribe to that belief.  You say i do, but you would be wrong.  I will safer with my gun and my eye on those who hate the US.  This is called planning for the worst and hoping for the best.  Until such a time that i feel the hatred towards the US is gone.  And dictators such as Kim, Castro, and Chavez are no longer the proxy weapons of those who hate us.

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## Nerms

> Eric C. 
> Maybe you should do it again (reread)? How can they earn more if there is "Economic blockade"? I'm against communism but your point isn't fair in that conditions.

 Are you saying if you cant trade with the US then its impossible for you to earn more?  Other people trade with Cuba...just not the US.  As is our right to decide who we wish to barter or not barter with.

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## Nerms

> It does not guarantee the result. While she exists you can not feel safe. You have to kill all those people like her until they did not kill you. Then you should settle a control over all who remained and check each month with lie detector, and if they suddenly start to support dictators or hate US, kill immediately. This is the only way to save democracy.  
> There were some financial problems in USA recently. Also the system of medical care is a bit... insane. Maybe small bombing would help?

 You prove my point you relish our suffering and pain.  Your comment and Hanna's comment to the same about wishing the US ecomony to suffer and by extension the people who live here.  How else should i react?  Rejoice that you wish us to suffer.  Another reason why i am keeping my eye on you guys.  Our economy is not what it once was largerly because we engage with free trade with china and india.  Which has helped to pull many of them from unbelievable conditions.  And as a consequece has further reduced the number of blue collar jobs that are available here.  Our medical system may not be perfect but people do recieve care here even if they cant afford it.  The may get strapped with a large bill (which happened to me) but unless the hospital does not follow the law they will recieve the same treatment as i or any other person(even illegal aliens) would recieve.

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## Nerms

United States embargo against Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
is a link to the embargo.  Maybe wiki is in on the propaganda. 
Here is a link to some of what the N Koreans have been upto.  Maybe the guardian is in on the propaganda.  Timeline: North Korea – key events since the end of the Korean war | World news | guardian.co.uk 
Here is another link to the Korean war from wiki propaganda Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Hanna

@Eric and Nerms   So 10 years from now, when the US is even deeper in debt to China,  they might consider writing some of it off, in exchange for the right to have a few military bases on US soil. 
Since you think it's completely ok for richer countries to put military bases on the territory of poorer countries, you wouldn't mind a few million Chinese soldiers and Chinese nukes spread out evenly across they US, right....? Just to protect you!  
     You might even be so lucky as to have a Chinese base next door. And Chinese dominance of your media would be cool, right? Also mandatory Chinese from grade 1 in school... or are you anti-Chinese? Then when they demand that you change your laws to accommodate Chinese financial interests or face economic sanctions,  you won't mind that either, will you?  (That's what the USA just did to Sweden.) 
It could be a bit like this... and it might be useful to memorise this song too, you never know!  ::  That's it comrades, bye for now - I'm off to see my pal O*s*ama and cook up a really nasty plan. _ (In case you didn't know, he's an asylum seeker in Sweden; they sent him on a free "Swedish for immigrants" course at the ice hotel in Lapland...)_   *
     PS - What's to say you can't get a lot for $15**?* Nothing other than the current capitalist system.  Clearly in Cuba it's enough to get by on for a month. Maybe bear that in mind next time you fill up the tank in your car.  _Note to any US internet monitoring agencies, like Menwith Hill reading this: I am NOT serious, thanks!_

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## Nerms

I was hoping to abandon most of those bases in order to save tax dollars and not increase our debt.  But its clearer to me now from your hate for the US and the harm you wish to be heaped upon us now requires more viligance.  
You only re-enforce my beliefs that i need to be careful about you guys.  You probably think Osama Bin Laden is a freedom fighter.  What i can see more clearly is he is your proxy fighter...much like all the afermentioned dicators.  In your heart indicated from your words you wish them to harm us.  Yet again threats againist my country with Chineese domination only re-enforces my belief that we need those bases. 
If your aim was to change US minds let me say EPIC FAIL.

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## Nerms

Sweden – United States relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here is the evil relations we have with your country.  Here is what you are throwing away.  Why would we force you to follow chineese financial policy?  I doubt even we follow any such policy.

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## Nerms

Berlin Wall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
Here is a symbol of injustice or maybe its propaganda...im not sure when your indoctornation started.  They try to leave and our shoot in the back.  Why didnt the US oppose this unification.  Seems like it would be in the US interest to me. 
Here is more recent take on it. Floating Cubans   International Rescue Committee | The International Rescue Committee goes to crisis zones to rescue and rebuild. We lead refugees from harm to home.
Are they liars as well.  North Korean Prison Camp Escapee Tells of Horrors, Worries About Those Left Behind - washingtonpost.com
are they liars.  Crossing Heaven’s Border ~ Helping North Korean Defectors | Wide Angle
are they part of the propaganda machine as well

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## gRomoZeka

> But its clearer to me now from your hate for the US and the harm you wish to be heaped upon us now requires more viligance.

 Sorry, but how other people's dislike of the US foreign policy, which is in no way can possibly turn into actual confrontation (can you seriously imagine Sweden in war with USA? I can't) gives you the right to hold other countries at nukepoint?
In a way your posts are very disturbing. I'm starting to think that maybe we need our own bases in case you'll want to prevent some imaginary threat by bombing us a little. The most powerful state in the world which is clearly a bit paranoid and not afraid to use brute force - it sounds dangerous. ... Looks like a vicious cycle of distrust.

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## Nerms

Here is your hero in action BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | North Korea refuses US food aid
maybe the BBC is a pack of liars  North Korea Food Aid Revived, Without U.S. - ABC News U.S.: N. Korea rejects American food aid - World news - Asia-Pacific - North Korea - msnbc.com AFP: US willing to resume food aid to North Korea http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/18/wo...a/18korea.html VOA | North Korean Defections Continue Amid Food Shortage | News | English US working on food aid plan for North Korea | Reuters
here is more evil doing..and i dont think you are right about the US having cut off food aid to N Korea even recently i believe we are one of the few left that is still giving them food.  which i dont agree with.

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## Ramil

He's got a point here. US's feeding North Korea more than anyone else (with possible exception of China). 
[trolling mode on]
Or it could also be that US is so afraid of North Korean nuclear weapons that it's willing to give food to them so they wouldn't attack.  :: 
[trolling mode off] 
Seriously though, I think that the only thing that's stopping US from invading North Korea is a military defense pact signed between North Korea and China.

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## Nerms

> Sorry, but how other people's dislike of the US foreign policy, which is in no way can possibly turn into actual confrontation (can you seriously imagine Sweden in war with USA? I can't) gives you the right to hold other countries at nukepoint?
> In a way your posts are very disturbing. I'm starting to think that maybe we need our own bases in case you'll want to prevent some imaginary threat by bombing us a little. The most powerful state in the world which is clearly a bit paranoid and not afraid to use brute force - it sounds dangerous. ... Looks like a vicious cycle of distrust.

 Yes i agree.  Distrust indeed.  Thankful you have all caused me to see the light.  THANK YOU!

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## Eric C.

> PS - What's to say you can't get a lot for $15? Nothing other than the current capitalist system.  Clearly in Cuba it's enough to get by on for a month. Maybe bear that in mind next time you fill up the tank in your car.

 Wow, maybe my year income would be enough to buy up their whole country? xD

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## Eric C.

> Sorry, but how other people's dislike of the US foreign policy, which is in no way can possibly turn into actual confrontation (can you seriously imagine Sweden in war with USA? I can't) gives you the right to hold other countries at nukepoint?

 Hmm, I think most of Swedes like the US. There are some exceptions, though, which just prove the rule.

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## Nerms

Its very unlikely we would invade.  For one we are to busy elsewhere.  Two our ecomony is in the toliet.  Three the chineese would never allow it.  We would end up taking on the whole chineese army.  Our military is 500,000 with 250,000 tied down.  We would be outnumbered at least 10 to 1.  Its more like we will tit for tat at some point.  Sink one of there vessels etc.

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## Nerms

the nuclear information project: withdrawal of US nuclear weapons from South Korea
for those that incorrectly believe we have nukes in S Korea. 
And for those who dont know Japan finally confirms secret nukes pact with U.S. - Washington Times
And for those that think that i only put what makes the US look good out there.  Or that i am blind to everything and unreasonable.

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## Hanna

Nerms: Either the school system in the USA is even worse than I thought, or you are being stupid on purpose... 
Are you not able to to see that there is a difference between; 
     1) dislike, dissatisfaction  AND
     2) hate 
and then 
     1) Dislike of a country's foreign policy  VERSUS
     2) Disliking a country itself VERSUS
     3) Disliking all people of a particular nationality.  
I really only dislike the USA's* foreign policy*.... the rest of what I said was just to tease you a bit since you were being really silly.  
The US foreign policy is dictated by American corporate interests, not by the will of the American people. (They don't even know where countries like Vietnam, Honduras and Iraq are located....   And I doubt they could give a good explanation as to why the USA needs airbases in Spain or Germany). The same business interests that manipulate US foreign policy also manipulate US mass-media, since they own most of it.  
Sure, there are alternatives, which is good, but most people only read what's easily available and then take it at face-value. That's why so many Americans have the incredibly narrow-minded view of the world that you have. In Europe people are more exposed to different types of opinions, through access to the media of neighbouring countries, and thanks to contrasts between state media and privately owned media. 
I think the USA as a country has many good points - things that I would like to see more of in Europe. I think that Americans (for the most part) are open, friendly and outgoing. Please believe me when I say that I don't wish any harm at all to the USA or it's people!  
I just would very much like: 
    1) That they US closed down it's military bases in Europe and 
    2) That it stopped meddling in the affairs of other countries, through sanctions, covert operations or war and occupation.    
.... and then just a little bit more humility on the part of some American citizens when they visit international internet forums.  
But basically for the US to behave like a normal country rather than "the country to rule them all". 
I can't understand why this viewpoint is so provocative to some Americans, such as yourself.

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## Nerms

Ah a little bit of reason from the otherside.  I will explain what i think so you can understand.  So the next time this comes up with some other hothead American you will understand.  When you say you hope for the US economy to suffer i start to take that personal.  When you start picturing Castro  Kim, Osama bin Laden as just as bad as us or better you have cross the line again with me.  When you start bragging about or economic collapse and how China is going to take us over.  I start getting mad.  When you say we are all brainwashed and without any real data to back that up.  I am left to think you have must have some sort of hatered for my country.  Rather i think it is you have some issue with facts.  If you say i am brainwashed and give facts i cannot contradict....then aybe i will start to see your side.  This is general how people see reason.  Calling someone brainwashed and talking about America thru innuedo rather then facts is going to make them upset.  My country is not perfect and i do think going into Iraq was not the right way to work that.  I am glad Saddam is gone but in the end it wasnt really worth it.  If you think i am unthinking there is one expression that i offer you. 
You say you want us to leave these military bases.  I pretty much do to.  It cost us a lot of money.
You say you want us to act like a normal country.  That is very hard for us to do because right now South Korea's pissed off beyond belief as are the Japanese and we are there ally much the same as China is North Korea ally. We cant just abandom them.  What cross words to you offer China or North Korea  None.  You offer only your venom for the US.  Weather you know it or not many countries plead to us for help.  As many as those that hate us.  It diffcult for us to just tell them to take a jump in the lake.  I dont hate you or really anyone really.  I dont hate the N Korean or even the Cubans.  I know they are trapped.

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## Seraph

The point here is that there are a lot of things you won't read in popular media.  Just what is it that he is supposing?

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## Nerms

Well i agree with the guy who says trust nothing.  You may not know but i was already aware of the 3rd building..  He says that was not in the new media here.  He is wrong i saw it here.  9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Pentagon - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics
That is my retort to his report.  Which is mostly just supposition

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## Hanna

Ok Nerns, the Chinese example really pissed you off? 
And I was only suggesting that it might happen in the future. This is already happening in Europe, and your country is doing it.  
If I change the word "Chinese" to "American" in the example, then you have the exact same situation that we currently have in Europe.  If it is changed to "Russian", then we have the example of the situation that existed in Eastern Europe for a while.  
Example:   

> ...you wouldn't mind a few million Chinese,  Russsian,  American soldiers and Chinese, Russian, American nukes spread out evenly across the US  Europe, right....? Just to protect you from Western imperialism Iran and North Korea (yeah, right..)  
>         You might even be so lucky as to have a Chinese,  a Russian, an American base next door. And Chinese American dominance of your media would be cool, right? Also mandatory Chinese, Russian English from grade 1 in school... or are you anti-Chinese American? Then when they demand that you change your laws to accommodate Chinese American financial interests or face economic sanctions, you won't mind that either, will you?

 Now, can you sympathise with the frustration that many Europeans feel about the situation with the bases and the bully-boy tactics of the US? You yourself go off on a spin at the mere _thought_ that this might happen in your country. It's already happening here. Some of the stuff that America supports is just as off-putting to us as the activities of China are to you. And that is after our media is already completely dominated by US content and opinions for a long time, and after our laws have been changed to accommodate the US dominance.

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## Misha Tal

Quick note for our "reasonable" Americans: 
In 1988, an Iranian civilian airplane was shot down by US missiles over the Persian Gulf. All hands were lost, which means 290 innocent passengers, the majority of whom were Iranian. Among the numerous excuses the Americans made up for the incident, the most ridiculous one was that they had mistakenly identified the Iranian Airbus as an F14 fighter. (Gee, that's brilliant, enit? It's like mistaking a cow for a cat!) The American crew received medals of honor for a neat butchering.  Wikipedia-Iran Air Flight 655 
Incidentally, do you guys happen to know where the Persian Gulf is actually located? I mean really knowing, not just having a vague idea about somewhere far away. *That's what your troops have been doing: saving the American people from the impending danger of civilian airliners flying on the other side of the planet.*

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## Eric C.

Misha, if you're living in Iran, you must know that your women are murdered in an awful way, by stoning, for having sex or expressing their opinion on religion issues. That's much worse than single incidents like one in your example, which is, however, terrible. But do you hate the Ahmad's regime at least as much as the US foreign policy? To make it logical, you must.

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## Misha Tal

> But do you hate the Ahmad's regime at least as much as the US foreign policy? To make it logical, you must.

 Last summer, I was a few meters away from getting arrested. The other two guys beside me were not that lucky.

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## Crocodile

[troll mode on]   

> Last summer, I was a few meters away from getting arrested. The other two guys beside me were not that lucky.

  Misha, you might be surprised, but there was a lot of hype in the media that the opposition to Ahmadinejad in the last election was all sponsored and directed by the US and Europe. Below are just some of the points which were put forward: 
1. Many of the placards were in English. Why not in Farsi? Allegedly, to show the 'work' to their masters/sponsors in the US. 
2. The opposition demanding not to accept the legitimate election results was directed by the US to ultimately put a puppet government similar to Orange Revolution in Ukraine. Allegedly, the pro-US government would allow the US to loot Iranian treasures.  
So, Misha, who were you working for? 
[troll mode off]

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## Misha Tal

> So, Misha, who were you working for?

 To tell you the truth, Crocodile, I need a crocodile's stomach to digest all that cr*p. Tell me one thing: do you want me to reply right here, at the unpleasant risk of getting OFFTOPIC rants, or should I start a new thread?

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## Crocodile

> To tell you the truth, Crocodile, I need a crocodile's stomach to digest all that cr*p. Tell me one thing: do you want me to reply right here, at the unpleasant risk of getting OFFTOPIC rants, or should I start a new thread?

  Probably, a new thread would be better. This one is about the N.Korea, after all. But you're right and I'm sorry for the off-top. So, yeah, go ahead with a new thread.

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## Eric C.

> [troll mode on]  
> Misha, you might be surprised, but there was a lot of hype in the media that the opposition to Ahmadinejad in the last election was all sponsored and directed by the US and Europe. Below are just some of the points which were put forward: 
> 1. Many of the placards were in English. Why not in Farsi? Allegedly, to show the 'work' to their masters/sponsors in the US. 
> 2. The opposition demanding not to accept the legitimate election results was directed by the US to ultimately put a puppet government similar to Orange Revolution in Ukraine. Allegedly, the pro-US government would allow the US to loot Iranian treasures.  
> So, Misha, who were you working for? 
> [troll mode off]

 I truly hope that for you, troll and  mean the same.

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## Misha Tal

> Probably, a new thread would be better. This one is about the N.Korea, after all. But you're right and I'm sorry for the off-top. So, yeah, go ahead with a new thread.

 Here's what I'm gonna do: I'll dig out that old thread about Iran, re-post your points there, and try to deal with the whole garbage objectively. I suppose it's gonna take me a while, so thanks for your patience!  ::

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## Crocodile

> I truly hope that for you, troll and idiot mean the same.

  See, Ramil, the food is coming. So easy.  ::  (That's why I'm not trolling anyone - it's so easy and boring.) 
Eric, you wouldn't be so reasonably balanced when you'd read all those forums (especially the BBC Russian) at the time of the last Iranian elections. And you have yet to learn about the so-called Orange Revolution in Ukraine and the way it's ended to understand what those guys were talking about. Perhaps, it-ogo could explain better.

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## Nerms

Misha,  You are correct the US story does not make much sense.  The iranian account to me seems to be the more logical one. 
Hanna,  maybe your are right about us bullying.  This newest wikileak indicates we kinda bullied Angela Merkel a little.

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## Hanna

_Wikileaks ROFL! 
Bradley Manning is the real war hero of the Afghanistan war._ __ 
Give Misha a break with all this stuff already!  He never signed up as the official spokes-person of Iran! He's already said several times that he thinks the regime is too oppressive and I can almost guarantee you that he doesn't want to see anyone stoned. Besides, he can dislike BOTH the Iranian government and the US policies, can't he?  *The Iran thread WAS very interesting though* and I think that people should bear in mind that there is a smear campaign against Iran in Western media. Nothing they do there is any worse than what happens in Saudi Arabia _(in fact, it's more moderate in Iran, I think?)_. Only difference is that the Saudis are buddies with the US whereas Iran isn't...  I for one think it's nice that there ARE countries that follow some other philosophy than just pure consumerism, materialism etc. I am more afraid of being abducted by aliens than I am of a nuclear attack on Europe by Iran.....   

> Misha,  You are correct (....) Hanna,  maybe your are right

  Are you feeling OK Nerms? ::  
As for me, I need to be banned from the Political Forum or I will never  learn any Russian because I get so distracted by all my ranting....  Seriously is it possible to ban someone from just one lounge but not the  whole forum?

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## Crocodile

> Here's what I'm gonna do: I'll dig out that old thread about Iran, re-post your points there, and try to deal with the whole garbage objectively. I suppose it's gonna take me a while, so thanks for your patience!

 Sounds good to me. If you feel like I'm forgetting things and I'm left out of that talk, please drop me a note.  ::

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## Lampada

> I truly hope that for you, troll and  mean the same.

 This is sad.

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## Basil77

> I just would very much like: 
> 1) That they US closed down it's military bases in Europe and 
> 2) That it stopped meddling in the affairs of other countries, through sanctions, covert operations or war and occupation. 
> .... 
> But basically for the US to behave like a normal country rather than "the country to rule them all".

 Hanna, they just can't do that. The US goverment need this foreign policy to support the qurrent Status Quo: the USA consumes more than 1/3 world resourses (while the USA population is less than 1/20 of world's population) and  pays for these resourses with green paper that actually cost nothing.

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## sperk

1) That they US closed down it's military bases in Europe
These countries are free to tell the US to leave, like Thailand and the Philippines did.

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## Ramil

> 1) That they US closed down it's military bases in Europe
> These countries are free to tell the US to leave, like Thailand and the Philippines did.

 O'RLY?  ::

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## Eric C.

> O'RLY?

 Maybe it's a matter of interest of some group that everyone think they can't?

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## Misha Tal

@*Hanna*: 
Thanks for your understanding! Two points, though:   

> I can almost guarantee you that he [i.e. I, Misha Tal] doesn't want to see anyone stoned.

 Why "almost", Hanna? You think there might be a small probability that I would feel somehow gratified to see people stoned?  ::  Joking aside, if that woman is not already dead, it's only because many people like me have forcefully confronted the government.   

> Nothing they [i.e. the government of Iran] do there is any worse than what happens in Saudi Arabia _(in fact, it's more moderate in Iran, I think?)_. Only difference is that the Saudis are buddies with the US whereas Iran isn't...

 Most Iranians get furious as hell when they are compared with Arabs. In fact, one of the reasons that the apes in our government are so hated over here is their crooked alliance with Arabs. As regards Saudi Arabia, I don't think of that country more than of a medieval tribe. We have 2500 years of political history, and have been struggling for democracy since the Persian Constitutional Revolution, while the Saudis have yet to learn what the word "democracy" means. If we've been trying to get our elections clean, Arabs can happily live without any elections at all. 
Maybe I shouldn't go that far. Our philosophizing *Crocodile* thinks it's racism. I think it's more of a national grudge. By the way, hardly any country is devoid of that kind of historical rancor. Perhaps except for the few countries that have no history to speak of. 
I'm afraid I've gone way beyond the topic at hand which was a screwed up topic anyway. I'll do the rest of today's program, as promised, in the Iran thread. 
*************************************  _@Lampada, or whoever responsible for keeping the forum clean: 
Sorry, folks! Got a bit carried away. It's politics talk, ya know..._

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## Ramil

> Maybe it's a matter of interest of some group that everyone think they can't?

 Theoretically they can, but many countries depend on that money US pays for its bases. Not only money, but trade preferences, investments, etc. Diplomats offer all kinds of betefits when they want a base on your territory and they're pointing out many 'disadvantages' of refusal. Local governments usually start seeing the point immediately. And sometimes they make an _offer one cannot refuse_. (c) Mario Puzo

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## Crocodile

> Perhaps except for the few countries that have no history to speak of.

 It's rather interesting you mention it again and again. If there's nothing to speak of, why to mention it so much?  ::

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## Hanna

> 1) That they US closed down it's military bases in Europe
> These countries are free to tell the US to leave, like Thailand and the Philippines did.

 I will write something about Misha's comment later, but briefly, since I am at work:  
Okinawa -- - really wanted to get rid of US bases; 
Kyrgizstan --- wanted rid of them too.. but in the end they got an offer they "couldn't refuse" since it's such a poor country.
South Korea  --- demonstrations about it all the time... Let the Koreans sort out their own problems! Or let China/Japan/Russia mediate, i.e. neigbours.
Germans --- mostly don't like it, but because of the War, they are reluctant to come out too strongly. 
Spain --- I've personally witnessed demonstrations against it; that's what first made me interested in the issue.  *
Only place I know that doesn't care, is the UK....*  
Some people believed they were needed during the Cold War... (But note: Scandinavia  was doing just fine without it -- right next to the USSR, so I don't  believe that was strictly true)  Either way, that's not a valid concern  anymore.

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## Misha Tal

> It's rather interesting you mention it again and again. If there's nothing to speak of, why to mention it so much?

 Whadya mean, again and again?! That's the first time I said anything like that around here! 
But I can see your general point, and you're right. It's almost the same with all Iranians. Given the rotten state of our country, all that's left for us to be proud of is our past. 
Mind you, UFO's don't exist either. People mention them again and again. :: 
******************
EDIT: Oh right. I just remembered I'd said that stuff before. Can't help it.

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## Crocodile

> EDIT: Oh right. I just remembered I'd said that stuff before. Can't help it.

 Thanks, I was just about to start copy-pasting stuff, but you were quicker.  ::    

> Mind you, UFO's don't exist either. People mention them again and again.

 So, perhaps UFO does exist as well as that small country is worth mentioning?  ::    

> But I can see your general point, and you're right. It's almost the same with all Iranians. Given the rotten state of our country, all that's left for us to be proud of is our past.

 I'm not so pessimistic. I know some Iranians and most of them are good and smart people. I believe in Iranian future. It's so happened that the Revolution made Iran kind of isolationist or, perhaps, the other side expands too aggressively, not sure. It's all subjective, I guess.

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## Hanna

...... and as a reward for going ahead with the totally un-necessary, and knowingly provocative military exercise on North Koreas border, South Korea is awarded with an awesome free-trade agreement with the US:_ Obama hails breakthrough on South Korea trade talks‎_

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## Crocodile

> ...... and as a reward for going ahead with the totally un-necessary, and knowingly provocative military exercise on North Koreas border, South Korea is awarded with an awesome free-trade agreement with the US

 Yes, yes, that was rather obvious right from the start. The omni-evil US was behind those outrageous attacks on peacefully working and sleeping N.Korea in which the land belongs to the peasants and the factories belong to the workers.  ::

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## Ramil



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## Hanna

:: Oh cut it off Croc, I am not saying that North Korea is a great country in any way. But what's the point in provoking it on purpose? Who benefits, other than war hawks!  
Nato has been known to *try* doing the same thing in relation to Russia; coming up with ridiculous "reasons" and justifications to having military exercises near Russias borders and missile bases in Poland etc etc. 
Do you think that's good too, or is it just North Korea that it is ok to provoke on purpose? That would be double standards!

----------

