# Forum About Russia Culture and History  Cultural observations ... Food

## waxwing

I have spent the last three months living in towns that didn't have a McDonalds.. and I lived to tell the tale! Amazing but true! 
Russia isn't really famous for its cuisine, and честно говоря, that's probably fair. At the same time, it doesn't mean you can't buy (or cook) great food here - you can.
One of the first conversations you're likely to have with people here is about the difference in eating styles - and in average weight! - of Russian and Western people. Everyone has a theory about why Americans, British etc. are so much fatter than Russians. Feel free to offer yours..   ::   
So what are the main Russian dishes?
Well #1 for me is борщ   ::   I'm particularly fond of it because i love beetroot. However I was dismayed to discover, on arriving here, that beetroot isn't actually considered to be the main ingredient of borsch (despite the fact that several dictionaries I've seen have defined it as 'beetroot soup'   ::  ). Usually it contains things like капуста (cabbage), помидор (tomato) and a little meat, maybe carrots onions, stuff like that. It's a perfect antidote to winter.
Other stuff that's very popular:
пирожки - It's a diminutive of 'pirog' or 'pie'. I find the name (or more accurately, the translation) a little misleading because pirozhki don't taste anything like what we mean in England when we say 'pie' - they don't really use pastry, more a kind of doughy substance (like that used in doughnuts). Having said that, there seem to be a million and one variants. The contents are often 'мяса' ( a generic term for meat, often pork but could beef - or horse for all I know   ::  ) or cabbage or often potatoes. Another linguisting derivative is 'пирожное' (sp?) which is a generic term for a variety of little cakes. Often very tasty and cheap. 
пельмени- well I could go on listing food like this forever. Actually I don't really like these. They're a bit like ravioli  
There's stuff like tvarog, kefir and other fermented stuff but I just can't handle them.. maybe other people like it.  
So how much does it cost to eat in Russia? In general, it is cheap compared to the west - anything up to 4 or 5 times cheaper depending on a host of factors.
Firstly, the price differential between restaurants and home cooking is significantly greater than in the West, usually. There are restaurants in Moscow which would be considered expensive in London (and I'm not talking about only the one or two very best restaurants). If you have the right kind of knowledge, you can find cheap places with good fresh food (I recently had *good* borsch for 5 roubles in Stavropol   ::  ) - but generally that's exactly the kind of knowledge that tourists lack.
When it comes to home cooking, the main bargains are traditional Russian foods, for example:
bread - 5 -10 roubles max. for a loaf.
Things like carrots, beetroot, potatoes, apples - all go for a handful of roubles per kilo. Dead cheap.
The real rip off are pre-processed western style foods. In many cases, I have seen such things to be as expensive or more expensive than in London.
I met one spanish student here who claimed he could live on 50R a day for food, and I believe him more or less. I think 100R is a reasonable figure, allowing the odd luxury like a bar of chocolate (15R might be a typical price there). 
Drink is also very cheap. 20-30R gets you a big bottle of beer, and you can get a bottle of champagne for under 100R (and a headache too   ::  ) 
...enough for today ! 
[/b]

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## Friendy

> мяса

 мяс*о*

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## emka71aln

Hey, stop talking about my favorite foods, you're making me hungry and I'm stuck here in the west where foods such as борщ and пельмени (If I butchered the spelling, please correct me) don't exist, except in my imagination.  
Although, I was at the store the other day, and I saw something called Mrs. T's Perogies.  Figured I'd try them, even though they claim to be polish.  Turns out they're pretty close, and good enough to satisfy me until I can get back to Russia and eat some real food.  
And as to why Russians are so much thinner than their Western counterparts - they eat less junk and get more exercise daily.  Can't just sit in a car and order pizza on the average Russian budget.

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## VendingMachine

*waxwing* 
Why didn't you say anything about SHAURMA, SHAVERMA and KEBAB? I mean the real SHAURMA/SHAVERMA/PROPER FALAFEL/KEBAB (yummy!) they serve on a plate with rice and veggies and a piece of pita bread and a glass of freshly squeezed orange/apple/carrot juice, not those horrible falafel miscarriages they sell in kiosks and call 'shaverma', yuck. 
And what about CAVIAR VINDALOO ?

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## joysof

> Hey, stop talking about my favorite foods, you're making me hungry and I'm stuck here in the west where foods such as борщ and пельмени (If I butchered the spelling, please correct me) don't exist, except in my imagination. 
> Although, I was at the store the other day, and I saw something called Mrs. T's Perogies. Figured I'd try them, even though they claim to be polish. Turns out they're pretty close, and good enough to satisfy me until I can get back to Russia and eat some real food.

 I don't mean to invite contention, but surely this is taking Russophilia to a new and dangerous extreme   ::  . 'The West' far outstrips Russia in culinary terms, doesn't it?

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## emka71aln

No contention here, just a little bit of growling from my stomach.    ::   ::

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## pookie123

hmm.mmm....mmmm....i love borsch

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## bad manners

> I don't mean to invite contention, but surely this is taking Russophilia to a new and dangerous extreme   . 'The West' far outstrips Russia in culinary terms, doesn't it?

 Sure thing. Considering that "The West" is what? 'bout 30 countries? Any one country will lose. Even if you single out France it will go down the drains. But a combination of the French and the Russian cuisines may just be it  ::  especially if your throw in the Caucasian stuff  ::  oh and the Wiener Schnitzel... along with Hungarian salami...

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## Alexandr_S

> *waxwing* 
> Why didn't you say anything about SHAURMA, SHAVERMA and KEBAB? I mean the real SHAURMA/SHAVERMA/PROPER FALAFEL/KEBAB (yummy!) they serve on a plate with rice and veggies and a piece of pita bread and a glass of freshly squeezed orange/apple/carrot juice, not those horrible falafel miscarriages they sell in kiosks and call 'shaverma', yuck. 
> And what about CAVIAR VINDALOO ?

 It is not native Russian food! It is Caucasian! But nowadays it is really popular as fast food. 
Although it is not very good for healf, imho.

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## waxwing

I hang my head in shame  ::   for not mentioning blinis .. c krasnoy ikroy .. 
dribble.. dribble 
oh and of course  buterbrot etc. 
but caviar vindaloo?? wtf is that?   ::   ::

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## bad manners

> oh and of course  buterbrot etc.

 Here the full credit is due to our Teutonic friends.

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## VendingMachine

> Originally Posted by VendingMachine  *waxwing* 
> Why didn't you say anything about SHAURMA, SHAVERMA and KEBAB? I mean the real SHAURMA/SHAVERMA/PROPER FALAFEL/KEBAB (yummy!) they serve on a plate with rice and veggies and a piece of pita bread and a glass of freshly squeezed orange/apple/carrot juice, not those horrible falafel miscarriages they sell in kiosks and call 'shaverma', yuck. 
> And what about CAVIAR VINDALOO ?   It is not native Russian food! It is Caucasian! But nowadays it is really popular as fast food. 
> Although it is not very good for healf, imho.

 And who are the Russians if not Caucasian... Anyway, who cares that its origins lie outside Russia? So what? Is chicken vindaloo Anglo-Saxon to the bone? But without it I'd say the English have no food at all, just bubble-and-squeaking fodder. (Well, maybe roast beef with Yorkshire pudding could be their only saving grace). The Scots really rock with their haggis, but. The best food I've ever tasted, by the way.

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## waxwing

> And who are the Russians if not Caucasian... Anyway, who cares that its origins lie outside Russia? So what? Is chicken vindaloo Anglo-Saxon to the bone? But without it I'd say the English have no food at all, just bubble-and-squeaking fodder. (Well, maybe roast beef with Yorkshire pudding could be their only saving grace). The Scots really rock with their haggis, but. The best food I've ever tasted, by the way.

 Vindaloo is insanity. I once bet a friend I could eat one. I lost the bet, and gladly too after my nose went purple.
By the way, you must be taking the p**s about haggis. It's vile.

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## VendingMachine

> By the way, you must be taking the p**s about haggis. It's vile.

 Absolutely not. I was dead serious about it. I absolutely adore haggis. I think it's the best food in the world. I'm sure that if there is a place called heaven they serve haggis there too. And whenever I eat haggis, I always recite that poem by Robert Burns - 'Fair fa' your honest, sonsie face, great chieftain o' the pudding race, etc", it's absolutely delicious. And when I have guests and we're having haggis for dinner we pass it round and introduce it to each other - 'May I introduce my friend Hamish?' and then I recite the poem or if I'm on my own and eating haggis, I also recite the poem before tucking in.

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## VendingMachine

> but caviar vindaloo?? wtf is that?

 It's what Lister ordered in that swanky restaurant in Better Than Life... Yes, I *was* extracting the urine...but only here, elsewhere I was dead serious.

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## roxfan

> Originally Posted by Alexandr_S        Originally Posted by VendingMachine  *waxwing* 
> Why didn't you say anything about SHAURMA, SHAVERMA and KEBAB? I mean the real SHAURMA/SHAVERMA/PROPER FALAFEL/KEBAB (yummy!) they serve on a plate with rice and veggies and a piece of pita bread and a glass of freshly squeezed orange/apple/carrot juice, not those horrible falafel miscarriages they sell in kiosks and call 'shaverma', yuck. 
> And what about CAVIAR VINDALOO ?   It is not native Russian food! It is Caucasian! But nowadays it is really popular as fast food. 
> Although it is not very good for healf, imho.   And who are the Russians if not Caucasian...

 You're confusing an American term (white) and geographical (region of Caucasus). Alexandr_S meant the latter. So it can't be considered Russian food, though it became quite popular in Russia lately.
BTW I think KEBAB comes from Turkey though I'm not sure...

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## Pravit

See what I was talking about in my other post?  ::  
Isn't VendingMachine Russian, though? I'd think Russians would understand the use of that term better.

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## VendingMachine

> See what I was talking about in my other post?  
> Isn't VendingMachine Russian, though? I'd think Russians would understand the use of that term better.

 Well, I've been taught since day one by my English teachers that Caucasian means "of the white race", and isn't related to the Russian word "кавказец" hence the many stupid translation errors in American films dubbed into Russian.

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## VendingMachine

> Originally Posted by VendingMachine        Originally Posted by Alexandr_S        Originally Posted by VendingMachine  *waxwing* 
> Why didn't you say anything about SHAURMA, SHAVERMA and KEBAB? I mean the real SHAURMA/SHAVERMA/PROPER FALAFEL/KEBAB (yummy!) they serve on a plate with rice and veggies and a piece of pita bread and a glass of freshly squeezed orange/apple/carrot juice, not those horrible falafel miscarriages they sell in kiosks and call 'shaverma', yuck. 
> And what about CAVIAR VINDALOO ?   It is not native Russian food! It is Caucasian! But nowadays it is really popular as fast food. 
> Although it is not very good for healf, imho.   And who are the Russians if not Caucasian...   You're confusing an American term (white) and geographical (region of Caucasus). Alexandr_S meant the latter. So it can't be considered Russian food, though it became quite popular in Russia lately.
> BTW I think KEBAB comes from Turkey though I'm not sure...

 Do you mean Russian food in terms of "of Slavic origin" or in terms of "food popular with citizens of Russia, what they eat on a daily basis"? I say that I'm Russian in terms of where I come from, but in terms of having mostly Slavic blood in my veins I'm just about as Russian as I am a Bolshoy Theater prima balerina. True, there is a trickle of Russian blood in my veins, but still... Since I obviously do not qualify by your definition of what Russian is, my culinary preferences are of little importance. OK, fine, my lips are sealed. Stay with your preconceived ideas. 
P.S.
Typical this, innit? First they ask what kind of food Russian people eat, pretending their interest is genuine, then, when they get an opinion which contradicts their preconceived ideas (of borsht and blini s ikroi) in this case,  they become stubborn and won't change their opinion no matter what. Sad but true - most people come to Russia to see their stereotypes of Russia and when they fail to see them (because they've been brainwashed all along and these stereotypes are exactly what they are - stereotypes), they return home thinking they've been cheated on their tour cos they didn't see the 'real' Russia, that is the Russia of their stereotypes. I rest my case.

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## scotcher

I just got back from 3 weeks in a part of Russia with no MacDonalds too (not that I'd eat that filth if my life depended on it anyway). Thought I'd chime in on the thread so far  ::  
Go Go Blanket-Generalisation Mode!! 
Russian food: varied but pretty bland, though practical. I was enormously glad to get home to my own kitchen and fridge though. 
Russian physiques: everyone is pretty thin and fit-looking, apart from every single woman over 35 years old, who are all huge. 
Haggis: rocks, end of story. 
More later, time permitting.

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## KatukovStrikesBack

My Grandfather lives for "boo-by-key". Thumb sized peices of bread smotherd in a 50/50 warm honey-oil mixture with either poppy seeds or crushed wallnuts mixed in.  
Since we have some Irish food fans here, has anyone heard of or eaten cabbage rolls before? Or were these a Russian dish?

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## JB

cabbage rolls can be found in russia, poland and other slavic countries.  Each reipe is a little different but they are all delicious!

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## bad manners

> cabbage rolls can be found in russia, poland and other slavic countries.  Each reipe is a little different but they are all delicious!

 If I am not mistaken, they are called голубцы in Russian. I do not know whether it is because they have a shade of blue (голубой) when cooked, or they have something to do with pigeons (голуби).

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## JB

Not blue and made with beef or pork.  Serve with sour cream, yummy!

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## bad manners

> Not blue and made with beef or pork.  Serve with sour cream, yummy!

 Yummy indeed. But, I seem to recall they may have this greenish-bluish color sometimes. That apparently depends on the kind of cabbage, the filling and the process.

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## KatukovStrikesBack

> Originally Posted by JB  Not blue and made with beef or pork.  Serve with sour cream, yummy!   Yummy indeed. But, I seem to recall they may have this greenish-bluish color sometimes. That apparently depends on the kind of cabbage, the filling and the process.

 Ours usually have a 50/50 meat* and rice filling and are slow cooked in tomato juice (My Grandmother swears by V8 juice. Gives it a spicy flavor). 
*Who knew moose meat tasted so good? You haven't lived till you've had a hotdog made from moose.

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## Tambakis

::  I guess I havn't lived

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## waxwing

> I just got back from 3 weeks in a part of Russia with no MacDonalds too (not that I'd eat that filth if my life depended on it anyway). Thought I'd chime in on the thread so far  
> Go Go Blanket-Generalisation Mode!! 
> Russian food: varied but pretty bland, though practical. I was enormously glad to get home to my own kitchen and fridge though. 
> Russian physiques: everyone is pretty thin and fit-looking, apart from every single woman over 35 years old, who are all huge. 
> Haggis: rocks, end of story. 
> More later, time permitting.

 Where were you scotcher? 
And on the physiques: thin, yes. Fit, no. For that, try somewhere like Brazil. (Note I didn't turn off scotcher's blanket generalisation mode..)

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## waxwing

> P.S.
> Typical this, innit? First they ask what kind of food Russian people eat, pretending their interest is genuine, then, when they get an opinion which contradicts their preconceived ideas (of borsht and blini s ikroi) in this case,  they become stubborn and won't change their opinion no matter what. Sad but true - most people come to Russia to see their stereotypes of Russia and when they fail to see them (because they've been brainwashed all along and these stereotypes are exactly what they are - stereotypes), they return home thinking they've been cheated on their tour cos they didn't see the 'real' Russia, that is the Russia of their stereotypes. I rest my case.

 Actually I'm not at all sure what this is typical of...
Who exactly asked what kind of food Russian people eat? I didn't need to ask, I can see perfectly well with my own eyes.
I didn't really come to Russia with many preconceptions of Russian food - I had only vaguely heard of borsch and caviar, and that's it. So I wasn't 'expecting' to see people eat pirozhki and I wasn't blind to the possibility that they might eat hamburgers or pizzas -which of course many people do. But for non-Russians on this forum, I assumed it's more interesting to discuss foods which are distinctively Russian.
Warning: this post may not be even remotely coherent. This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring..

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## VendingMachine

> This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring.

 DISCLAIMER: Please don't read this post if you're the sensitive type. It contains some very direct and forceful language, reader discretion advised.  *waxwing* 
I'm afraid you won't like what I'm about to say. Also, I'd like you to know that it's with great reluctance that I'm saying this, but it's high time someone said it. Listen, mate, I don't want to be rude but I'm going to ask you to please (pretty please with sugar on) stop making dirty insinuations about the Russian people, especially their 'drinking habits'. If you've landed an accommodation with an alcoholic, well, my condolences, but please don't make sweeping generalizations about the entire people. 
Some people do drink, in fact, every country has its drunkards. You see, the drinking habits of those who drink in Russia (and elsewhere in the world) aren't Russian or <insert your favourite nation or ethnic group here>, they are drunkard's drinking habits, simple as that. A wino is a wino in every nation. He isn't Russian, he isn't German, he isn't Chinese. He's a wino, period. 
I'm a Russian citizen and I don't know anyone who has a drink problem (though of course there are some who do like everywhere else in the world) and I know a lot of people in Russia, far far more than you do (and I've lived in this country much longer than you have). However, I've seen a lot of foreigners lift the elbow in Russia - apparently they think they're 'going Russian' - I can't but pity such people. What's worse, they love to brag about it before their Russian colleagues and fellow expats. Pardon me, but this is sick. (By the way, this only makes you a laughing stock in the eyes of the Russians.) 
It's not my job to police this forum, but I can't just sit quitely while you're badmouthing the Russian people. We don't want to hear odes, critisism is always welcome and incouraged, but lies and slanders will be exposed (2moderator - this will be a clean parliamentary action, forum rules will always be respected). 
Now, you may say I'm overreacting, well, I'm not. I'm sick to my gut with your tales of 'Russian drinking habits' and suchlike and I'm sure the others aren't exactly extatic about them either.
Just ignore them, can't you,  I hear your hiss. I would, if it wasn't for the people who have never been to Russia and want to find out what the people are like over here - I won't have you brainwash them with lies. 
What's his problem, I'm only expressing my opinion, I hear you say. Well, by all means do so, but please do it in the form of IMHO, not in the form of sweeping generalisations and casual remarks which suggest your familiarity with the subject. A casual remark makes people think that what you're saying is common knowledge and happens to be true whereas in reality it may not be the case. 
Allah is my witness that I'm not looking for a fight - I want everyone to please stay calm.   *waxwing* and everyone else who feels like saying something to me in connection with this post, could you possibly email me at 'yazubr STRUDEL yahoo DOT com' (strudel is the @ sign). Thank you.  
To everyone else who's Russian on this board - ну а вы все чего притихли? или waxwing действительно прав, вы все спились к чертям собачьим? вам не обидно, когда такую гнусь тут про вас пишут? ведь это нас всех касается. нет, вы тут все умиляетесь, как круто, типа англичанина бухать научили, молодца паря! вам ведь в лицо плюют. тьфу противно. знаете, есть такое слово быдло? так вот быдло есть везде, с этим ничего не поделаешь. но никакой народ по своей природе не быдло, но почему-то из жителей России это быдло с радостью пытаются сделать, и обидно то, что наши люди при этом стоят и улыбаются как олигофрены. Что конкретно лично сам отдельно взятый waxwing думает о России меня мало волнует, но я считаю неправильным, когда он свои мысли на этом форуме высказывает не в ключе ИМХО, а в ключе общепризнанных и неподлежащих оспариванию фактов. Причем это может быть завуалированно во вроде бы безобидные фразы, брошенные мимоходом, но своей клеветнической сути они не теряют при этом (например, вот этот эпитет "This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring").  
Я не русофил и од в свой адрес не жду. Критику приветствую, но против лжи буду бороться нещадно (для модератора - парламентскими методами согласно регламенту данного форума). Аллах видит я не лезу в драку и призываю всех соблюдать спокойствие. Наболело просто...

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## JJ

> This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring..

 Ok, if u wanna talk about "drinking habits" let's see statistics of the World Health Organization 
Adult per capita alcohol consumption of pure alcohol in litres (2000):
Czech Republic - *14.94 litres*
Denmark - *11.30 litres* (1999)
Finland - 9.72 litres(1999)
France - *13.31 litres*
Germany - *12.45 litres*
Italy - 9.16 litres
Ireland - *15.80 litres* (1999)
Latvia - 9.54 litres
Netherlands - 9.45 litres
Slovakia -*12.11 litres* (1999)
Spain - *11.17 litres*
Switzerland - *11.45 litres* (1999)
UK - 9.73 litres (1999)
US - 9.08 litres *Russia - 10.70 litres* 
Don't see to much CNN propaganda and don't be so brainwashed!
Nothing personal, "Мне за державу обидно!" (©"Белое солнце пустыни")

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## waxwing

Well I was going to apologise for my comment about drinking. Then I read your post again VM and I remembered why I responded to you in the first place. Frankly, you're a bully. Your pretence of being 'offended' by my comment is just a front. 
You know, English people have a bad reputation, not for drinking so much, but for drinking and being violent (football hooligans etc.). If people make jokes about that with me, I just laugh, perhaps ruefully. Does one really need to be so touchy about this? Of course not. There will always be cliches and reality is of course never quite like that. 
But I've lost count of the number of times Russian people here have told *me* that drinking is a big problem in Russia. Once again, you assume it's my preconceptions but I don't get my ideas about Russian food or drink from CNN or the BBC, I get it from living here. 
As for statistics, well, that's certainly interesting. But I remember many times, while living in England, discussing the difference between French and English drinking habits .. the French don't have a reputation for being drunkards, although they drink a lot, it's because of the way they drink - more with food, and over a longer time.
It's not just about how much you drink, but the way you drink it.

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## JJ

> You know, English people have a bad reputation, not for drinking so much, but for drinking and being violent (football hooligans etc.).

 We've got a diffrent view on the same things - England and English people never assosiate with violent people in Russia, such as many another countries don't assosiate with negative. Russians associate England with the Big Ban and Tower, Thems etc, I guess that 9 of 10 russians mostly assosiate English people with Shakespeare, Robin the Hood, Walter Scott, Robert Burns and The Beatles and Backham... But on the contrary  western people usually assosiate Russia with negative.
I think it could be a good theme for a new topic, "what do the russians assosiate with your country?"   

> But I've lost count of the number of times Russian people here have told *me* that drinking is a big problem in Russia.

 Sure it is.And this is a big problem for all countries where the drinking of alcohol is more than 8-9 litres per capita. I wonder why the people in the other countries don't discuss about this with forieners. May be russians more open or more truthful?  ::    

> Once again, you assume it's my preconceptions but I don't get my ideas about Russian food or drink from CNN or the BBC, I get it from living here.

 So what? You are the 1 of 10000 forieners who knows the russian reality in only one region. The other people look, read and listen to the western "free" mass-media and they find there "drunk white bears with balalayka and AK47 walking down the Red Square". Мне за державу обидно!  ::    

> As for statistics, well, that's certainly interesting. But I remember many times, while living in England, discussing the difference between French and English drinking habits .. the French don't have a reputation for being drunkards, although they drink a lot, it's because of the way they drink - more with food, and over a longer time.
> It's not just about how much you drink, but the way you drink it.

 I think it also depends on the laws. Russia has not very stringent laws about drinking in public places, for example.

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## waxwing

> Originally Posted by waxwing  You know, English people have a bad reputation, not for drinking so much, but for drinking and being violent (football hooligans etc.).    We've got a diffrent view on the same things - England and English people never assosiate with violent people in Russia, such as many another countries don't assosiate with negative. Russians associate England with the Big Ban and Tower, Thems etc, I guess that 9 of 10 russians mostly assosiate English people with Shakespeare, Robin the Hood, Walter Scott, Robert Burns and The Beatles and Backham... But on the contrary  western people usually assosiate Russia with negative.
> I think it could be a good theme for a new topic, "what do the russians assosiate with your country?"

 Agreed. There is no doubt that there is a negative association with Russia for most Westerners. It's rather vague, full of cliches and yes, it's perpetuated by the media. They think of mafia, drunkenness, poverty, corruption etc. Not to mention cold of course.
I can understand that this must be, sometimes, very annoying for Russians.  

> Originally Posted by waxwing  But I've lost count of the number of times Russian people here have told *me* that drinking is a big problem in Russia.   Sure it is.And this is a big problem for all countries where the drinking of alcohol is more than 8-9 litres per capita. I wonder why the people in the other countries don't discuss about this with forieners. May be russians more open or more truthful?

 You might be right. But, perhaps I should just explain what I *really* meant by 'Russian drinking habits'. It wasn't 'drinking a lot' - but rather the drinking of vodka, neat, in large measures. This is really unusual to most westerners and it takes some getting used to. Russians often tell me it's 'opasniy' .. and how right they are!  

> Originally Posted by waxwing   Once again, you assume it's my preconceptions but I don't get my ideas about Russian food or drink from CNN or the BBC, I get it from living here.   So what? You are the 1 of 10000 forieners who knows the russian reality in only one region. The other people look, read and listen to the western "free" mass-media and they find there "drunk white bears with balalayka and AK47 walking down the Red Square". Мне за державу обидно!

 Yeah I understand the 'media' problem (see above).

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## scotcher

> Where were you scotcher? 
> And on the physiques: thin, yes. Fit, no. For that, try somewhere like Brazil. (Note I didn't turn off scotcher's blanket generalisation mode..)

 Ivanovo mostly, where my in-laws live, but we also spent time in Yaroslavl and Vladimir, and spent New Year in a pretty wee village called Palex. 
@vendingmachine: I've been to Russia a few times, my wife is Russian, and I have to say it seems *to me* that you are describing Russia as you would like it to be, rather than how it really is.  
Of course not all Russians match the stereotype, but neither is the stereotype completely inaccurate. Indeed, in my experience the greatest proponents of the steroetype are Russians themselves, rather than any nasty lying foreigners. They love the stereotype, they are proud of it, and they love to play up to it, especially whenever there are foreigners present, and that seems to be the case even if they themselves are not particularly heavy drinkers. 
In my, admittely limited, experience a great many Russian men do indeed drink only in moderation, and the vast majority of Russian women drink less than would be considered average in Britain, but there are a whole load of Russian men who drink so much that I am amazed they even stay alive let alone hold down jobs and provide for their families, as they do. And remember that I am speaking as a Scot, another nation with a reputation for producing heavy boozers, who grew up in a pub (my parents co-owned a pub, and we lived above it), so I reckon I'm pretty comfortable with the issues here. 
But, like I said, if you want to blame anyone for the steroetye (as if it'll make any difference anyway), then blame the millions of Russians who come into contact with foreigners in some capacity and do their best to prove it, every... single... time.

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## joysof

Last night, a man was sick on my shoes in the metro. You can keep your WHO statistics - I have all the evidence I need   ::  .

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## VendingMachine

> Last night, a man was sick on my shoes in the metro. You can keep your WHO statistics - I have all the evidence I need   .

 So what? A man puked all over my mate's back on the London underground. Does this make all Brits winoes?

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## bad manners

> Last night, a man was sick on my shoes in the metro. You can keep your WHO statistics - I have all the evidence I need   .

 Anecdot*al* evidence again, joysof? 
I may disagree with VendingMachine on many things, but this is one thing where I concur. Essentially everything the Westerners "know" about the Russians is stereotypes dating back to the 18-19th centuries, which were fabricated by the propaganda of the Western states. For one only reason: Russia was becoming a major player in Europe so the rulers had to make sure the lemmings would hate the Russians _organically_. 
Even the "cold" thing was made up as an excuse by the French losers, for their mass desertions and shameful defeat. Which of course was just _the_ thing for the German losers a century later.

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## JJ

> In my, admittely limited, experience a great many Russian men do indeed drink only in moderation, and the vast majority of Russian women drink less than would be considered average in Britain....

 That's right, waxwing this is one of the drinking habits - the women shouldn't drink too much. In my family women drink about 3-4 times less than men. BTW, my wife never drink.

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## VendingMachine

Well, Scotcher, maybe this is a regional thing again. Coming from St Petersburg, I'd hate to sound like a metropolitan snob, but those places, Yaroslavl, Vladimir, Palex, ahummm, well, they're our "Roossian Doodloy". I mean, what do you expect? You choose the most bumpkin of all places and expect everyone to be nayce and refayned. 
Please don't get me wrong, Scotcher, I don't want to say anything bad about the people who live there, I know some very very nice people from there, were at Uni together, but the region has a reputation for its economic depression with all due consequences.  
But what about Britain? Well, I've been to Liverpool and Manchester a few times (and many more places in Britain too). We've had our car broken into twice within a week (!), every day we could watch gangs of scallies kick 7 shades of sh@te out of each other and whoever happend to be passing by, I've been thrown all sorts of rubbish at while riding a bike... In London my mate got puked all over by some ...-up Cockney tosser. In Cambridge local yobs were accosting foreign students every night at chucking out time. Speaking of chucking out time - it was almost impossible to walk around the centre of Cambridge at that time because there were drunks strewn all over the place, puking, shouting, swearing, singing, urinating - the police were working like an army of paramedics at the scene of a major car crash picking them up and taking them down to the police station. And cor, did bicycles get stolen! 
So what does this say about the British? Are they drunks and hooligans? Are they thieving bastards? Absolutely not. So why is it OK for some of your people to display such clearly antisocial behaviour, drink like there was no tomorrow, and still avoid bringing the national character of the British into question by us? Maybe because we can see the broader picture? Maybe it's because we don't jump to conclusion having seen a few examples which mean basically nothing. 
[personal comment to Scotcher deleted by moderator]   

> Of course not all Russians match the stereotype, but neither is the stereotype completely inaccurate.

 Stereotypes can never be inaquarate. There will always be someone who matches it.  
[edited by moderator]   

> They love the stereotype, they are proud of it, and they love to play up to it, especially whenever there are foreigners present, and that seems to be the case even if they themselves are not particularly heavy drinkers.

 Ha-ha-ha, how little you know about the Russian character yet. What better fun than to pull the leg of an unsuspecting foreigner full of silly stereotypes about you?  That reminds me of how we once told an American tourist that we'd better sprint to the nearest metro station because out of the corner of my eye I had just seen a pack of bears walking along a side street in our general direction. Cor, did the poor berk run! He must've broken the world record, LOL. We laughed heartily, we did. Serves him right for believing silly propaganda. OK, that was fairly juvinile, I accept, but we were just kids at the time... 
Nobody loves this stereotype, I'm convinced that one must be severly disturbed if one believes this could be the case. What you're saying is that we, the Russian people, love it when foreigners say we drink like pigs, which in effect is the same as saying "yes, you're all pigs out there" because only a pig would be proud of it. So what you have just done is insult everyone Russian on this forum. Now, Internet is a great thing, it allows one to be rude to whoever one wishes without getting into serious trouble. 
As for playing up to the drinking stereotype, I'm inclined to disagree with you. Either you're bending the truth or what you've seen in Ivanovo is typical of Ivanovo and the depressed area around it and can be linked to the poor economic situation the people are in there. In St Petersburg drinking is a very non-U thing. Those who drink don't usually brag about it, it's a very non-U thing here, bragging about your drinking. If you drink, it's something you are expected to be ashamed of. (This doesn't apply to many teenage boys trying to look macho, but anyway it is a passing phase for most of them.) If a foreigner asks someone if drinking is a big problem here, most Russians would switch to sarcastic mode because they're sick and tired of this question (likewise of questions like what do you think of Stalin? are you a communist?) and because they think (and unfortunately not without a good reason) that the foreigner already has a preconceived idea about everything in Russia and he's only after more proof of his theories, and being sick to his gut of explaining everything to someone who obviously doesn't want to change his opinion, so why bother, why disspell the myth, why enlighten the ungrateful one? You want to see Russians as drunkards, fine, fine, put on your beer-goggles and halucinate. At the end of the day it's that foreigner who keeps his stereotypes and is made a laughing stock out of behind his back.   

> @vendingmachine: , and I have to say it seems to me that you are describing Russia as you would like it to be, rather than how it really is.

 So far I haven't described Russia as I would like it to be, I'm not Solzhinitsin. Anyway, it'd be pearls before, you know.

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## Jasper May

> Originally Posted by scotcher  [adds VM to his "Ignore: too hysterical for any discussion" list]   [tips off the chief psychiatrist at Bedlam about Scotcher's whereabouts].

 Tsk, tsk. Two grown-up men... You should be ashamed of yourselves.

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## Friendy

> It's not just about how much you drink, but the way you drink it.

 I agree and that is why I think that the statistics that reflects the drinking problems should be "the number of people with drinking problems". On the other hand such statistic is harder to obtain and it will be much more approximate.   *To VendingMachine:*
I think that most people on this forum understand the real worth of stereotypes (I am a big stereotypes-hater myself) and not a single person here said that he believes in "Russians are drunkards" stereotype or smth like that.  Please, read waxwing's posts once again and try to notice that if he said something stereotypical it was in joking mode (which is usually clear from the context) or as he says himself:  

> (Note I didn't turn off scotcher's blanket generalisation mode.)

 And certainly neither he nor anyone here meant to offend Russian people. Almost all foreigners on this forum love Russia and Russians (Would they otherwise be here?). Of course to love doesn't mean to be free of stereotypes. If you really want to fight with stereotypes you should do it in a form of friendly discussion with analyzing, explaining, giving examples and so on (I know you do that too), personal attacks will only make the opposite effect. When you answered Roxfan (btw, AFAIK he is Russian, correct me if I'm wrong) you started with good, understandable and reasonable questions and then suddenly go with: "Stay with your preconceived ideas.", without even finding out what Roxfan meant. How can one feel after that? Of course this makes people think that you are a bully. 
If the person doesn't write "IMO" in his message, it doesn't mean that he is 100% sure of what he says, usually it is clear when one speaks in "IMO mode" or not, and you can't expect everybody to write "IMO" every time he writes something subjective (personally I try to do that often, but that is my conscious choice and I don't expect everyone else to do that). Also don't forget that there is the word "observations" in the thread's title. 
As for drinking stereotypes, I don't think that only foreigners are responsible for them, look at our TV, radio, internet, look at the jokes our Russian citizen make there.
I'm sorry if I sound too moralizing, no way I give myself right to judge anyone, I think I understand your feelings (about stereotypes) and I understand that sometimes it's difficult to keep back emotional outbursts I just want to say that it's really not the case one should feel offended or throw into personal attacks.
P.S. Speaking of duels, they've never been the evidence of manhood to me, I hated them since childhood and think they are cruel and stupid.

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## VendingMachine

*2Friendy* 
OK, I know that having said I was leaving I should've left, but I just couldn't help missing the opportunity to ...comment on your post, Friendy... 
You see, Friendy, the thing is you're completely missing the point here. A proof of waxwing's manhood would be in his owning up to his mistakes and apologising like a man should, not in fighting a duel with me. I offered him a boxing match because I wanted to give him an alternative. You see, if his pride is stronger than him, he'll never apologise, but if he's a gentleman (and I thought at the time that he was), he'll want his name cleared by all means, and what better way to do so for a chap than to put up his dukes and knock his apponent out or get knocked out himself.
You see, fighting his own stubborn self may well prove much harder for him than fighting me, because fighting me means fighting only on the physical level, while fighting himself calls for a serious psycological battle. I did the man a favour by challanging him. If waxwing was a real gentleman, he would've either apologised or, if his pride was stronger than him, he would've accepted my challange. So far he's done neither thing. Which means he's a poof and has no honour. 
My boxing offer still stands. He knows how to contact me - I gave the address in one of the posts in this thread.  
Now, this time it's farewell.   *2Administrator* 
Please delete my account. And best of luck to you, mate, you have behaved very wisely in letting us have our say in this filthy matter.

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## MasterAdmin

I was late to watch this thread. You guys had to continue at least via PM on the forum. I wouldn't have to edit the stuff that way.

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