# Forum About Russia Politics  KGB and Russian mafia

## Sean

Is there a connection between the Mafia and the KGB. It's just a theory I heard spouted once not really sure if it's true but I'm doing an essay on the subject and if there is some valididity it might be worth looking into for me. Just interested to know what you all think.

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## VendingMachine

> Is there a connection between the Mafia and the KGB. It's just a theory I heard spouted once not really sure if it's true but I'm doing an essay on the subject and if there is some valididity it might be worth looking into for me. Just interested to know what you all think.

 If I said yes, would you believe me? If I said no, would you believe me? This is a silly question.

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## Lampada

"Google knows everything!" (c.)

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## Alex_Ivanov

How something that doesn't exist can be connected to something that doesn't exist? Just curious...   ::

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## MasterAdmin

> Is there a connection between the Mafia and the KGB. It's just a theory I heard spouted once not really sure if it's true but I'm doing an essay on the subject and if there is some valididity it might be worth looking into for me. Just interested to know what you all think.

 I think it's valid for yellow press.

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## kalinka_vinnie

KGB?

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## Scorpio

"KGB" and "Russian mafia" are very similiar in one aspect: they don't exist. 
KGB ceased to exist in 1991. (It's supetceded by lot of organisations, including SVR, FSB, RUOP/ORB, OBNON, etc.) 
"Russian mafia" was and remains another myth.

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## scotcher

You mean there's no organised crime in Russia? 
Da konechno...

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## Scorpio

> You mean there's no organised crime in Russia? 
> Da konechno...

 Of course, there *is* an organised crime in Russia (as well as anywhere else).
But "organised crime" and "mafia" don't have same meanings for me.

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## JB

Russian organized crime is alive and well in Los Angeles. Smuggeling drugs and Russian prostitutes (these girls are getting top dollar in Hollywood!) through Mexico is very easy. Also Russian auto repair shops are very good at laundering money.

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## VendingMachine

> Russian organized crime is alive and well in Los Angeles. Smuggeling drugs and Russian prostitutes (these girls are getting top dollar in Hollywood!) through Mexico is very easy. Also Russian auto repair shops are very good at laundering money.

 Are you involved in any of those activities? No? Then why are you talking about something you've no experience of nor in?

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## kalinka_vinnie

All I know is that Norway, for example, has a big problem with Russians smuggeling Russian women and forcing them to be prostitutes. And we call them the Russian mafia. No, VM, I have no experience in this, but trust me, the problem is very real.

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## waxwing

I hate to say this, but - if you have no experience, why exactly should we trust you?   
Just be careful you don't get your information from the media, because in my experience that can be very warped. At least, you can't rely on it. 
PS "smuggling" - you can also use "trafficking"

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## kalinka_vinnie

Don't have to trust me, I am just a random guy on the internet. So are we all, might as well not even ask for help on this forum, how can you trust us? 
I, for some reason, do trust the Norwegian media. Our "free press" has no reason to lie about human trafficking, and if one media outlet lies, the others would be pretty fast to point it out. That is what competition is about

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## waxwing

> but trust me

  

> Don't have to trust me

  ::    

> I, for some reason, do trust the Norwegian media. Our "free press" has no reason to lie about human trafficking, and if one media outlet lies, the others would be pretty fast to point it out. That is what competition is about

 What I'm talking about is often much more subtle than that, although sometimes it can be quite extreme. If you ever watch the American media, you may see things that you find to be breathtakingly untrue. A good example is the story of Private Jessica Lynch in Iraq. Your arguments apply just as much to the American media as they do the Norwegian media (this is my presumption - I actually know nothing of the Norwegian media), so something must be wrong somewhere... 
One of the keys to this little puzzle is that the public at large are generally utterly uninterested in the objective truth of a situation (this is especially true if the story concerns something outside the normal sphere of their everyday life). They want to see what reinforces their world view, or sometimes what titillates them and satisfies their salacious appetites. 
You have pointed out the positive aspect of the "free market" model of media, and I am pointing out the negative aspect - if media is a commodity bought by consumers, then the most successful supplier will certainly not be the one who most accurately presents the truth - unless the truth happens to be the most entertaining angle, which it rarely is. 
So your media certainly *does* have a reason to lie about human trafficking.
Although it probably isn't  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

[quote=waxwing] 

> but trust me

  

> Don't have to trust me

  :: 
[/quote:21oqrbx7]
Sorry if it is unclear: I want you to trust me, but you don't have to.   

> What I'm talking about is often much more subtle than that, although sometimes it can be quite extreme. If you ever watch the American media, you may see things that you find to be breathtakingly untrue. A good example is the story of Private Jessica Lynch in Iraq. Your arguments apply just as much to the American media as they do the Norwegian media (this is my presumption - I actually know nothing of the Norwegian media), so something must be wrong somewhere... 
> One of the keys to this little puzzle is that the public at large are generally utterly uninterested in the objective truth of a situation (this is especially true if the story concerns something outside the normal sphere of their everyday life). They want to see what reinforces their world view, or sometimes what titillates them and satisfies their salacious appetites. 
> You have pointed out the positive aspect of the "free market" model of media, and I am pointing out the negative aspect - if media is a commodity bought by consumers, then the most successful supplier will certainly not be the one who most accurately presents the truth - unless the truth happens to be the most entertaining angle, which it rarely is. 
> So your media certainly *does* have a reason to lie about human trafficking.
> Although it probably isn't

 I disagree. First of all, you cannot compare Norwegian media to American media, it's like comparing grapefruits to coconuts. Second of all, you are generalizing the term "media". I consider myself rather careful in chosing my sources of information. American television in general I can't stand, so most of my american news I get from certain internet newspapers and National Public Radio. These are what I consider the more neutral media outlets and do not have this "sensationalism" taint to it, as TV Journalism does. Tabloids are useless. Pick the media you trust, not all American media is bad! 
That said, human trafficking in Norway is not "sensational news" as something like Jessica Lynch was. We have known about our problem for about 10 years now and the government has taken several measures to stop it from happening. heck, maybe they have been telling us these stories all this time to sell more newspapers. OK, next time I am in Norway I will go to a Russian prostitute and ask her state of affairs, that way I can gain the experience you desire. But you still wouldn't trust me, since you have no way of knowing if I am telling the truth.    ::   ::

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## DDT

> [ and National Public Radio.

   ::   ::

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## Scorpio

> Russian organized crime is alive and well in Los Angeles. Smuggeling drugs and Russian prostitutes (these girls are getting top dollar in Hollywood!) through Mexico is very easy. Also Russian auto repair shops are very good at laundering money.

 Not surprised. As I read (in plenty of sources) the crime situation in Los Angeles is exactly like this.  :: 
The only thing I want to emphasize: if these gangs of criminal are operating in USA, why are they "Russian mafia"? For me they look more like *american mafia* (although of "russian" origin).
Not to mention calling "mafia" a gang of thugs... Isn't it lame. 
Of course, everything I said applies to Norway as well.

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## VendingMachine

> No, VM, I have no experience in this, but trust me, the problem is very real.

 Yes, and so are the flying sourcers. I suggest you explore the link between the flying sourcers and the so-called Russian mafia. Success attend you.

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## JB

I don't get my information from any media I get it straight from people who work in the LAPD Vice Squad and from the district attorney who is in charge of prosecuting Russian organized crime (and I have no idea why he refers to them as the "Russian Mob" and "Russian Mafia"). They are not American citizens or legal residents so they cannot be "American Mafia". I haven't been told any stories of Russian girls here being forced into prostitution. They all seem to move about freely and all have Russian passports and only call their pimps when they need to be bailed out of jail. A few hours out of jail they set up shop (and computers) in a new location and are back in business.

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## VendingMachine

> I don't get my information from any media I get it straight from people who work in the LAPD Vice Squad and from the district attorney who is in charge of prosecuting Russian organized crime (and I have no idea why he refers to them as the "Russian Mob" and "Russian Mafia"). They are not American citizens or legal residents so they cannot be "American Mafia". I haven't been told any stories of Russian girls here being forced into prostitution. They all seem to move about freely and all have Russian passports and only call their pimps when they need to be bailed out of jail. A few hours out of jail they set up shop (and computers) in a new location and are back in business.

 For pity's sake, JB, choose your hobby once and for all - pulling babies with forceps or tackling organised crime. Don't do both things.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  No, VM, I have no experience in this, but trust me, the problem is very real.   Yes, and so are the flying sourcers. I suggest you explore the link between the flying sourcers and the so-called Russian mafia. Success attend you.

 Well, there are plenty of people who say that they have experienced flying saucers, but that doesn't make it true, does it? 
I don't understand why you deny that Russia has mafia! And now you are denying that Norway has a problem with human trafficking by Russians, just because YOU have never heard of it before?

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Not surprised. As I read (in plenty of sources) the crime situation in Los Angeles is exactly like this. 
> The only thing I want to emphasize: if these gangs of criminal are operating in USA, why are they "Russian mafia"? For me they look more like *american mafia* (although of "russian" origin).
> Not to mention calling "mafia" a gang of thugs... Isn't it lame. 
> Of course, everything I said applies to Norway as well.

 Your statement holds true if the the mafia is only limited to America, using illegal American goods and breaking only American laws. the Russian mafia has to originate from Russia, it would have to expand its influence from Russia to other parts of the world, or else I agree it isn't Russian mafia, since it has nothing to do with Russia, apart from ethnicity. But if they are using Russian passports, getting narcotics from Afghanistan through Russia and all the leaders are Russian citizens, it certainly isn't American mafia! 
mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics.

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## JB

The Russian's that are involved in organized crime in Los Angeles return to Russia regularily.  They also stay in Russia if they find the American cops are getting close to catching them.

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## VendingMachine

> mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics

 No, matey, that's not mafia, that's organised crime. You get mafia only when crime is so organised that it uses its tentacles to grab certain politicians, congressmen/MPs/etc. by the balls and they (politicians) become part of the same criminal network. Now, Russian politicians don't operate in Norway, so if Norway has a trafficking problem as you discribed it means that _Norway has its own mafia and they are in control_. The Russian organised crime could put down roots in Norway because they found a way of getting Norwegian politicians into their network, thereby building a real mafia in Norway - _Norwegian mafia_.

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## VendingMachine

> The Russian's that are involved in organized crime in Los Angeles return to Russia regularily.  They also stay in Russia if they find the American cops are getting close to catching them.

 So that basically means that your society is a wonderful breeding ground for organised crime. It offers niches for different ethnic groups. But who's behind those niches? Who keeps them warm while their owners are keeping low profile in Russia? Who receives bribes for minding the shop while the owner's away? Who offers those niches to criminal gangs from abroad. Russian mafia my arse.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics
> 			
> 		  No, matey, that's not mafia, that's organised crime. You get mafia only when crime is so organised that it uses its tentacles to grab certain politicians, congressmen/MPs/etc. by the balls and they (politicians) become part of the same criminal network. Now, Russian politicians don't operate in Norway, so if Norway has a trafficking problem as you discribed it means that _Norway has its own mafia and they are in control_. The Russian organised crime could put down roots in Norway because they found a way of getting Norwegian politicians into their network, thereby building a real mafia in Norway - _Norwegian mafia_.

 I don't know where you got that definition from, because all the dictionaries have a much broder definition of mafia (my definition was taken from websters) 
Actually here is an intersting article from http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Russian_Mafia   

> The Russian Mafia is a name given to various groups of organized criminals in Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. They are seen to be very influential.  
> The Russian Mafia appears to be organised in similar ways to the legendary Italian mafia. However it is believed to be a very loose organisation with internal feuds and murders, which are often brutal, being commonplace.
> ...
> Since the mid-90s the Russians have been trying to expand into America, most often via the trafficking of drugs and illegal weapons. This has led to some brutal wars with the organisations already present, including the Italian Mafia and the Japanese Yakuza.
> ...
> The term Russian Mafia is considered offensive by many ethnic Russians, since a large percentage (some estimates claim this number to be close to 90%) of the alleged "Russian" mafiosi, especially in the United States, claim to be ethnic Jews from the former Soviet Union, and due to strong anti-semitic feelings in parts of Russia, many Russians do not feel that Jews are authentically Russian. 
> ...
> The so called "Russian Mafia" appears to be no more "Russian", per se, than Cosa Nostra is "English" or "American" Mafia, as far as much of the Russian public is concerned. The term "Russian-speaking" or "Soviet" Mafia may better describe the situation.

 This seems to show the essence of our discussion!!! But can we trust internet sources?

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## Pravit

Actually, I thought most of the "Russian mafia" are really from former Soviet republics like Armenia, Georgia, etc.

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## Scorpio

> Originally Posted by Scorpio  Not surprised. As I read (in plenty of sources) the crime situation in Los Angeles is exactly like this. 
> The only thing I want to emphasize: if these gangs of criminal are operating in USA, why are they "Russian mafia"? For me they look more like *american mafia* (although of "russian" origin).
> Not to mention calling "mafia" a gang of thugs... Isn't it lame. 
> Of course, everything I said applies to Norway as well.   Your statement holds true if the the mafia is only limited to America, using illegal American goods and breaking only American laws. the Russian mafia has to originate from Russia, it would have to expand its influence from Russia to other parts of the world, or else I agree it isn't Russian mafia, since it has nothing to do with Russia, apart from ethnicity. But if they are using Russian passports, getting narcotics from Afghanistan through Russia and all the leaders are Russian citizens, it certainly isn't American mafia!

 As for me, the much more important question is: *where (and how) people are conducting some criminal activities?*
For example, here is some (purely hypotetical) situatuation. Imagine a groups of emigrants from former USSR (where they were worked in a car service, for example). In USA they (being unable to find any better employment) became to sale drugs or run prostitutes. So (even if they all remain Russian citizens, and have only Russian passports), why they should be desribed as "Russian mafia"? For me (even if they are "mafia" -- see below), they definitely are 100% "American mafia". Because they didn't do anything illegal back in Russia -- only when they moved to USA, they began to.   

> mafia means a secret organization of criminals, for example dealing with illicit trading of narcotics.

 So, according to your definition, even 2-3 schoolboys selling marijuana to their classmates are mafia?
This is the reason, why I call it lame. 
Let me quote some authoritative sources -- for example, Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?to ... =Mafia&ct=  *Mafia 
hierarchically structured society of criminals of primarily Italian or Sicilian birth or extraction. The term applies to the traditional criminal organization in Sicily and also to a criminal organization in the United States.  
The Mafia arose in Sicily during the late Middle Ages, where it possibly began as a secret organization dedicated to overthrowing…*

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## JB

The Russian's in Los Angeles that are involved in organized crime are not nice "immigrants" who couldn't find a job and got into drug running and prostitution as a side line  ::  . These guys are here illegally, usually on work visas from the money laundering business fronts that are owned by their crimminal Russian friends. Also without visas they come into California through Mexico. They travel back and forth between America and Russia because they have businesses (criminal, illegal) in BOTH countries. These are not stupid amatures.
And as for Britannica's definition, that is about 50 years behind the times. The US Feds pretty much took the power out of the Italian mafia a few years back when they were all busted for tax evasion. Now the big problems are with the Chinese, Mexican, and Russian mafias.

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## DDT

> [
> So, according to your definition, even 2-3 schoolboys selling marijuana to their classmates are mafia?
> This is the reason, why I call it lame. 
> Let me quote some authoritative sources -- for example, Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?to ... =Mafia&ct=  *Mafia 
> hierarchically structured society of criminals of primarily Italian or Sicilian birth or extraction. The term applies to the traditional criminal organization in Sicily and also to a criminal organization in the United States.  
> The Mafia arose in Sicily during the late Middle Ages, where it possibly began as a secret organization dedicated to overthrowing…*

 Yes, finally a spark of truth has entered into this discussion. "MAFIA" is an Italian word describing  certain Italiians. No one seems to agree on what the word means, some say that it means "honour" or "manly" some say it is an Arabic word that means "Refuge" dating back to the 9th century when Muslim invaders were at the doorstep of Rome. But the fact remains that to be truly considered Mafia you had to be sanctioned by the Dons and there was usually a bloodline connection somewhere. 
The Japanese have  their Yakuza, the Italians have their Mafia. If there are organized groups of Russian families, you will have to come up with another name for them because these names are taken. Or better yet,why don't you go and find a bunch of Russian speaking thugs committing criminal acts and asked *them* what their name is?

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## JB

The word "mafia" has been incorporated into the English and Russian languages, just as the words "cafe", "taxi" etc. It no longer refers to only Italian criminals, but is used to describe organized criminals of many ethnic groups.

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## DDT

> The word "mafia" has been incorporated into the English and Russian languages, just as the words "cafe", "taxi" etc. It no longer refers to only Italian criminals, but is used to describe organized criminals of many ethnic groups.

  I'd like to see you tell that to the *real* Mafia.

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## JB

Exactly who is the "real" mafia? I have never heard that any group of Italian organized criminals call themselves "The Mafia". One of my Italian friends in high school even warned me not to use that term in her house because her grandfather and uncles had "businesses" in Chicago.  
Also the DA, LAPD and press routinely refer to the Chineses Mafia, Mexican Mafia, and Russian Mafia along with the Italian Mafia. 
In California and Mexico the 2 major Mexican rival groups or "mafia" call themselves "The Mexican Mafia" and "Nuestra Familia".

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## DDT

The American branch of Mafiosi call themselves *La Cosa Nostra*.  
Sure, the cops and the press always get it wrong. Who cares what terminology they use. Everybody is "the Mafia" to them, now. I prefer not to operate on their level.  It is an insult to all involved and to my intelligence as well.

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## JB

You prefer not to operate on whose level? What in the world are you talking about?

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## DDT

On the level of the average Local News broadcast in America.
 Broadcasting their diet of Velveeta cheese and Big Macs for all the 300 lb heifers dragging their chublette kids through Wal-Mart on their way to the next sale aisle in order to buy another mismatching set of lime green tights and hot pink tank top so she can look “sexy” for her soft and doughy like, slightly abusive boyfriend who is more interested in watching basketball on their big screen TV that they can’t really afford, than talking to her, the mother of his children and a couple of other guy’s as well. Oh yes, how alluring she will be as she goes to fetch him another six-pack of light beer and a pint of Ben and Jerry’s New York Cheese Cake ice cream for herself. He will not know where to look, at the TV or at his girlfriends protruding and gelatinous like  belly so “conveniently” left bare. But unfortunately this romantic moment will only be ruined by his sharp criticism of her as she dares to hand him a can of his beloved beverage while a hoop is being made. 
The talking heads on  TV, the district attorneys and spokes cops are talking to the above people when they use words like Russian Mafia, Chinese Mafia, Japanese Mafia. It is just about as convenient for them to use this terminology as it is for the  Miss Piggys in spandex to feed her kids at McDonald’s. And if you find this description of Mafia in your dictionary, it is about selling the latest edition to the masses not Mafia,.....  darling.

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## JB

Reality check.....
I didn't read it in the newspaper, didn't hear it on TV. I heard it from the people who are experts in organized crime (judges, district attorney, lawyers, police officials) over cocktails at private parties.

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## DDT

> I heard it from the people who are experts in organized crime (judges, district attorney, lawyers, police officials) over cocktails at private parties.

 Hmm...."experts in organiized crime" . I wonder what makes them experts. You don't suppose the fact that  all those you mentioned have been known to have been "bought off" by the *Mafia* at one time or other has anything to do with that do you? 
But you are missing the point. I know that these people use the word "Mafia" in that way. They are just simply  *wrong*. Perhaps it's the cocktails.
Experts using an incorrect term does make the term correct. Take the word *nuclear* for example. It is correctly pronounced just as it looks. However many semi- illiterate boobs including respected news anchors and even President Bush himself insist on saying "Nuc*U*lar". Does it make it right simply because Bush says it that way? No. And niether are Russians Mafiosi, just organized.

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## JB

I'll be seeing some of these people this weekend. After working for many years in law enforcement and the judiciary they'll be glad to hear that you don't consider them experts on organized crime (even though fighting the various "mafias" has been the main focus of their careers). 
And I won't even mention the "bought off" accusation. That is beyond stupid.

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## DDT

I think that the history of the  corruption of the LAPD  going back to prohibion times (i.e. real Mafia) is self evident and has been of lately the standard to which current allegations are measured. 
It is well known that the LAPD has been trying hard to overcome the stigma of their former corruptness. Good god, their hiring practises take a year or so to complete with batteries of tests, written psychologogical, oral psychological, an evaluation before a board. Not to mention a background investigation that goes through every detail of your life and anyone who knows you also. Oh and the polygragh which is their biggest downfall as it can easily be beat by anyone trained......this is where the "bad eggs" can slip through while keeping out some of the good guys.  
Anyway now I'm drifting away from "Russian Mafia"
but if you still think the LAPD is squeaky clean are clean here are a few sites to visit.  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... boyer.html http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/rampart/ 
And a site about the real Mafia. http://www.search-international.com/Art ... merica.htm*r*

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## JB

I never said the LAPD or ANY police force in any part of America is squeaky clean. But your example is of an incident in the local gang unit, not vice and organized crime units. And corruption in one department of the police force does not mean that everyone in the whole LAPD or District Attorney's office is on the take. 
Do you have any examples of these people taking payoffs from the "Russian Mafia" in Los Angeles?

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## DDT

> Do you have any examples of these people taking payoffs from the "Russian Mafia" in Los Angeles?

 No I don't. But that is my whole point. Russian criminals are not Mafia. They probably don't have the power to buy cops and politicians. But the real Mafia did (maybe still does) have that power and is documented.

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## JB

So you have a reference to the Italian ("real") Mafia buying off the cops and DA in Los Angeles within the last 20 years? 
And the Russia Mafia has a lot more cash than those punk gangs in your previous reference.

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## DDT

> So you have a reference to the Italian ("real") Mafia buying off the cops and DA in Los Angeles within the last 20 years?

 None.  The LAPD are a different breed these days, with a "new" set of problems. I think, though they (the Mafia)  still are supposedly powerfull, they don't have the weight that they used to have. Most of the families were broken up and some imprisioned by the 1980's. But there was plenty of corruption at one time, just ask Serpico. 
Wouldn't this be more appropriate name for Russian organized crime, "Solntsevskaya"? Or doesn't it have enough of that tabloid feel for the cravings of our sensationally starved citizens?

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## JB

Here's a few sites I found relating to "Russian Mafia". It seems even Pravda can't stop using that phrase.... http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/9 ... mafia.html  www.tarquingunnell.co.uk/MafiaPage-RussianMafia.htm

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## DDT

> Here's a few sites I found relating to "Russian Mafia". It seems even Pravda can't stop using that phrase.... http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/21/9 ... mafia.html  www.tarquingunnell.co.uk/MafiaPage-RussianMafia.ht      m

 Pravda? Well they're wrong too but I expect no less  from them. Here is a quote from the second site you listed to show you why "mafia" should not be used to describe Russian crime syndicates. It is confusing. 
" *The Brighton Beach area of New York City became the hub for Russian organized crime in this country during the mid-1970s. There, Russian criminals developed a working relationship with the La Cosa Nostra (LCN) which allowed them to establish fuel tax fraud schemes in certain areas of New York. The LCN forced the Russian criminals involved in these frauds to pay a large portion of their proceeds as a "tax" to operate. * " 
Here we find Russian criminals doing buisiness with  the real Mafia, La Cosa Nostra. They are separate entities and need to be labelled that way in order to accurately reflect the situation we have here. When we say "La Cosa Nostra" we know specifically that we are dealing with Italian-American branch of the Mafia out of sicily. When you say, "Russian Mafia" , you have blurred the lines.   
Anyway, I read an official report from the FBI on organized crime just recently and they did not use the word "Mafia" when referring to Russian Organized Crime.

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## Scorpio

> The Russian's in Los Angeles that are involved in organized crime are not nice "immigrants" who couldn't find a job and got into drug running and prostitution as a side line  . These guys are here illegally, usually on work visas from the money laundering business fronts that are owned by their crimminal Russian friends. Also without visas they come into California through Mexico. They travel back and forth between America and Russia because they have businesses (criminal, illegal) in BOTH countries. These are not stupid amatures.

 Of course, there are some professional criminals (and with criminal "roots" in Russia, actually).
But I can remember only *one* professional criminal of this sort: Vyacheslav Ivan'kov (aka "Yaponchik"). BTW, when he tried to really do something illegal in USA (I don't remember, what) he was placed into jail without much hesitation.  :: 
Looking at the problem from other side, I heard (personally) about *many* cases, when people were lured into some kind of criminal business only when they came to USA.   

> And as for Britannica's definition, that is about 50 years behind the times.

 I wonder, why people spend their own money (essential amount, AFAIK) for such an obsolete source of information.  ::

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## JB

The use of the term "mafia" in reference to organized crime syndicates of all nationalities is well established in the language of both Russia and America. It doesn't matter what the reference books say or how loud the linguists bemoan the "improper" use of the word. Very few people base their use of language on these experts opinion, and will continue to say "mafia" in reference to organized crime groups. But it seems some experts have differing opinions. Webster's New World Dictionary defines mafia as "any exclusive or dominating group".
If you want to learn about the extent of Russian organized crime in America just Google "Russian mafia in America" and you will get articles that talk about more than "just one" professional Russian criminal.

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## Scorpio

> The use of the term "mafia" in reference to organized crime syndicates of all nationalities is well established in the language of both Russia and America. It doesn't matter what the reference books say or how loud the linguists bemoan the "improper" use of the word. Very few people base their use of language on these experts opinion, and will continue to say "mafia" in reference to organized crime groups. But it seems some experts have differing opinions. Webster's New World Dictionary defines mafia as "any exclusive or dominating group".
> If you want to learn about the extent of Russian organized crime in America just Google "Russian mafia in America" and you will get articles that talk about more than "just one" professional Russian criminal.

 Very well, I took your advice. 
Among first 10 links, given by Google, at least 6 are announcing book, called "Russian Mafia in America: Immigration, Culture, and Crime" (James O. Finckenauer, Elin J. Waring) The announce for book is free to download (for example, www.wjin.net/Pubs/3228.doc). So, let's read, what the authors themselves are writing:  _The most interesting, and perhaps most surprising, finding of this study is that the authors do not find that a Russian Mafia exists.  They find a distinction between “organized crime and crime that is organized.”  They find that Russian emigres involved in criminal activity are criminal entrepreneurs and extortionists who do not have the honor and respect of their community (most of whom, of course, are law-abiding).  There is little evidence that these Russian criminals are corrupting U.S. officials, and the illegal markets in the U.S. (e.g., drugs and gambling) do not lend themselves to domination by the Russians because of considerable competition from other criminal groups._ 
Isn't this exactly what I said? 
Another link is to BBC news report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_repo ... /70485.stm), mostly containing usual ranting about "there may be thousands of mafia groups in Russia". Do they saying anything about "Russian Mafia" in USA? Surely, they do! Prepare for big surprise:  _Mafia invades New York 
When the Russian mafia began to move into the United States it chose Vyacheslav Ivankov, known as Yaponchik or "Little Japanese", to head its New York operation.  
He was convicted in November 1997 in a Ј3.5m ($5.9m) extortion case..._ 
and so on. 
Remaining 2 links don't seem to be containg anything interesting. 
No comments are needed, I think.  ::

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## JB

You shouldn't limit yourself to only one search engine. I did a Yahoo search and found J.Finckenauer's CV, which is quite impressive except for that the fact that his "study" is based on only 3 east coast states. And since he is a university professor and at the time he wrote his book he was in academia and not law enforcement, I thought you might like to see what the California Attorney General was saying at the same time (1996). http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/rusorg1.htm#tc

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## Jca

> I'll be seeing some of these people this weekend. After working for many years in law enforcement and the judiciary they'll be glad to hear that you don't consider them experts on organized crime (even though fighting the various "mafias" has been the main focus of their careers). 
> And I won't even mention the "bought off" accusation. That is beyond stupid.

    

> I think that the history of the corruption of the LAPD going back to prohibion times (i.e. real Mafia) is self evident and has been of lately the standard to which current allegations are measured.

 Following the reasoning in these pages, denying everything, how can you asure that this corruption of the LAPD has ever been so, were you there, DDT, to confirm that? Are the experts that wrote on this corruption really experts or simply some guys bought by obscure organizations with obscure interests?
I'd add, how we know our galaxy is 100.000 light years long, who's the expert that has measured it? And who bought that expert to say so? ... 
Ok, let's call it organized crime, like the one in Malaga and other cities in southern Spain. Are you going to deny they are there commiting crime, laundering money, involved in prostitution? Where's the problem in admitting that?

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## the paul

> Is there a connection between the Mafia and the KGB. It's just a theory I heard spouted once not really sure if it's true but I'm doing an essay on the subject and if there is some valididity it might be worth looking into for me. Just interested to know what you all think.

 It is absolutely true. Putin's personal friends head key Russian enterprises and the whole industries. Oficially they represent the state in state-owend companies, but in fact... Russia get sunk in corruption, 'cause theese KGB guys controll everything. But you will never hear it in the news (try to guess why   ::  ) They control the media!

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## the paul

Try to read this (if you familiar with Russian). Sorry, don't have English translation... http://www.compromat.ru/main/internet/forumy.htm
This will help you to understend a real scale of the corruption and propaganda.

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## Scorpio

> Try to read this (if you familiar with Russian). Sorry, don't have English translation... http://www.compromat.ru/main/internet/forumy.htm

 Let me quote: 
"А на русских веб-форумах - разгул ненависти, ксенофобии, расизма, антисемитизма, пропаганды насилия, аморального хамства и беснования." 
Doesn't this statement look like a bit of overgeneralisation for you?   

> This will help you to understend a real scale of the corruption and propaganda.

 I'll better like to underst*a*nd, why some people become so hysterical, when somebody is expressing opinions different from their own.

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## the paul

I'll better like to underst*a*nd, why some people become so hysterical, when somebody is expressing opinions different from their own.[/quote]
U'*d* better speak out loud of your love to PUTIN, kid

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## the paul

"А на русских веб-форумах - разгул ненависти, ксенофобии, расизма, антисемитизма, пропаганды насилия, аморального хамства и беснования." 
Doesn't this statement look like a bit of overgeneralisation for you? 
It doesn't look like overgeneralisation *TO* me.

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## mishau_

> Is there a connection between the Mafia and the KGB.

 Just a version.  It might be a clan. They have something in St. Petersburg, I'm sure. A kind of clan business or so. The moneys directed to St. Petersburg have lately increased. And Chubais is still chief of the United Energy Systems. Many big enterprises now are newly reregistrating in St. Petersburg to leave their taxes there. Key figures of Moscow's government are being swept out to regions. Shantsev, Boss, who else? Now they are going to move the Constitutional court to SPB and then the pocket state duma may follow as well in order to supply the clan legislatively. Maybe it was them who made Eltsin to resign.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> "А на русских веб-форумах - разгул ненависти, ксенофобии, расизма, антисемитизма, пропаганды насилия, аморального хамства и беснования." 
> Doesn't this statement look like a bit of overgeneralization for you? 
> It doesn't look like overgeneralisation *TO* me.

 Не знаю, у тех веб-форумах, которые я навещал, не было никакого ксенофобии, расизма, и т.п. Что, gramota.ru такой же? и тут наши русские спокойные, как большие панды... низнаю. 
а наш Скорпио не ребенок  ::  
And since we have started to correct each other's English in public:   

> Doesn't this statement look like a bit of overgeneralisation for you? 
> I'll better like to understand, why some people become so hysterical, when somebody is expressing opinions different from their own.

 Doesn't this statement look like a little overgeneralized [exagerrated] to you? 
I would like to better understand why some people become so hysterical when sombody expresses opinions that are different from their own.   

> This will help you to understend a real scale of the corruption and propaganda

 This will help you to understand the real scale of corruption and propaganda.   

> It is absolutely true. Putin's personal friends head key Russian enterprises and the whole industries. Oficially they represent the state in state-owend companies, but in fact... Russia get sunk in corruption, 'cause theese KGB guys controll everything. But you will never hear it in the news (try to guess why  ) They control the media!

 It is absolutely true. Putin's personal friends head key Russian enterprises and whole industries. Officially they represent the state in state-owned companies, but in fact... Russia gets sunk in corruption, because these KGB guys control everything. But you will never hear about it in the news (try to guess why) They control the media!

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## the paul

[quote=kalinka_vinnie] 

> "А на русских веб-форумах - разгул ненависти, ксенофобии, расизма, антисемитизма, пропаганды насилия, аморального хамства и беснования." 
> Doesn't this statement look like a bit of overgeneralization for you? 
> It doesn't look like overgeneralisation *TO* me.

 Не знаю, у тех веб-форумах, которые я навещал, не было никакого ксенофобии, расизма, и т.п. Что, gramota.ru такой же? и тут наши русские спокойные, как большие панды... низнаю. 
а наш Скорпио не ребенок  ::  
And since we have started to correct each other's English in public:   

> Doesn't this statement look like a bit of overgeneralisation for you? 
> I'll better like to understand, why some people become so hysterical, when somebody is expressing opinions different from their own.

 Doesn't this statement look like a little overgeneralized [exagerrated] to you? 
I would like to better understand why some people become so hysterical when sombody expresses opinions that are different from their own.   

> This will help you to understend a real scale of the corruption and propaganda

 This will help you to understand the real scale of corruption and propaganda.   

> It is absolutely true. Putin's personal friends head key Russian enterprises and the whole industries. Oficially they represent the state in state-owend companies, but in fact... Russia get sunk in corruption, 'cause theese KGB guys controll everything. But you will never hear it in the news (try to guess why  ) They control the media!

 It is absolutely true. Putin's personal friends head key Russian enterprises and whole industries. Officially they represent the state in state-owned companies, but in fact... Russia gets sunk in corruption, because these KGB guys control everything. But you will never hear about it in the news (try to guess why) They control the media![/quote:lqzp1s1l] 
Thank you very much, man! Nice of you to correct my spellin! What do you use? Prompt (C) I guess? Good boy! You'd better watch yourself man...

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Thank you very much, man! Nice of you to correct my spellin! What do you use? Prompt (C) I guess?

 What do you mean "what do you use"? I use the big thing between my two ears (Baldrick: "oooh... your nose!"   :: ). I am a native speaker   ::     

> You'd better watch yourself man...

 Now who is playing the KGB intimidation tactics?   ::   
BTW, when I was in peters, I went into a toy store once. All of a sudden, there came like 5 guys all dressed in black with gold necklaces and such. I quietly went out. Outside, there were two other thugs standing guard at the enterance and a nice mercedes was parked, as well as a not so nice lada with pitch black windows. Mafia? I guess the mafioso just wanted a toy for his kid   ::

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## mishau_

Probably you saw them knocking over the shop to take away their tribute given. As for their kinds, you know, their fathers prefer salesmen to come to them with the goods their order. And if they are discontented with the goods, the salesmen may never return. They may find their deaths in the fireplace, for example.

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## the paul

What do you mean "what do you use"? I use the big thing between my two ears (Baldrick: "oooh... your nose!"   :: ). I am a native speaker   ::   
Sorry man, but you don't look like native speaker

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Sorry man, but you don't look like native speaker

 Ah, again it happens. I thought that Russians of all people would understand my avatar! Это же  Владимир Толоконников! Повторяю, это -  *Владимир Толоконников*. Он не похоже на меня, даже совсем не близко. Он сыграл Шарикова в "Собачье Сердце". Все думали что умер, но эта фотография доказывает что он жив!!!

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## Scorpio

> I'll better like to underst*a*nd, why some people become so hysterical, when somebody is expressing opinions different from their own.

 U'*d* better speak out loud of your love to PUTIN, kid[/quote] 
Well,
 a) For being a kid I'm a little too old (35);
 b) No, I don't love PUTIN so much to speak out loud about it;
 c) But whom I absolutely despise are the cheap arrogant demagogues like you. That's for speaking out loud, dude.

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## the paul

> Originally Posted by the paul  I'll better like to underst*a*nd, why some people become so hysterical, when somebody is expressing opinions different from their own.   U'*d* better speak out loud of your love to PUTIN, kid

 Well,
 a) For being a kid I'm a little too old (35);
 b) No, I don't love PUTIN so much to speak out loud about it;
 c) But whom I absolutely despise are the cheap arrogant demagogues like you. That's for speaking out loud, dude.[/quote] 
Then do it for KGB's sake, kid.   ::

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## mishau_

He's not Sharikov any more. He's father Akim, unless I'm mistaken.  ::    http://www.rg.ru/2004/11/26/tolokonnikov.html  
He is Sharikoff

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## kalinka_vinnie

в моем сердце, он всегда будет Шариков   ::   ::  Так, что он уже стал отцом? Сколько у него щенков?   ::  Да, да, знаю, что _играет_ роль отца...  ::  Что, шутки не понмиаете?   ::   
И Павел, не надо извиняться передо мной, я зла не держу!   ::

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## JJ

> Then do it for KGB's sake, kid.

 Moron.

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## mishau_

> Так, что он уже стал отцом?

 Судя по новому аватару, он стал президентом.  ::

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## capecoddah

Try THIS link, from both sides of the International Date Line http://russianlaw.org/ROC.htm 
I'd tell you what I've seen in the past, but I'm not allowed to. (Kinda like the old joke, "I'd tell ya, but then I'd have to kill ya") 
Just come up with a nice name and agree on it.  ::   Then send it to all the English speaking newspapers. Mob works for me, <criminal set>, pretty easy translation too.

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## mishau_

Great site! 
Russian criminals have been implicated in numerous murders, attempted murders, assaults and extortion and the Iraq war preparation.   ::

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## capecoddah

Three names coutesy of 'The History Channel'
"Thieves World"
"Mafiya"
and my personal favorite "Redfellas"

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