# Forum About Russia Society  Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

## iCake

I've just run into this "epic" suggestion. What the f**k is going on in this man's head?  the "epic" suggestion 
There is a good Russian idiom about such things - раздувать из мухи слона, which corresponds to the English phrase - blow out of proportion. At least that's my take

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## John_Douglas

> I've just run into this "epic" suggestion. What the f**k is going on in this man's head?  the "epic" suggestion 
> There is a good Russian idiom about such things - раздувать из мухи слона, which corresponds to the English phrase - blow out of proportion. At least that's my take

 Why is it out of proportion? The Russian government passed laws essentially turning a certain class of people into criminals. Some people feel that boycotting the Olympics is a worthwhile step to express their disapproval.

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## Боб Уайтман

> Why is it out of proportion? The Russian government passed laws essentially turning a certain class of people into criminals. Some people feel that boycotting the Olympics is a worthwhile step to express their disapproval.

  And how does it turn them to criminals? Did you ever read what is this law about? It prohibits homosexualism *propaganda* to *underage* (under their 18 ) persons. 
 It is *nowhere* written in the law that being a homosexual is a crime! 
 I would say that any sexual propaganda (not only homosexual) to children is unappropriate, agree?
 Moreover, any public discussion of someone's intimate relations is something ...hm... embarrassing. There are things which are generally not for publicity in the civilized society.
 Let everyone do what they want privately. Why even to talk about that? I have never heard anyone in my country to ask another person about their ...hm... sexual orientation. 
 The US and the UK do have laws prosecuting the so-called "indecent exposure". If someone decides to walk naked through a crowded street in NYC, what would happen? They are going to be arrested by the police, isn't it? But it does not mean that just having ...hm... some intimate parts of body is a crime. The crime is exposing them, right? Especially, when there are underage children around.
 Many people feel discussing someone's sexual preferences publically is as shameful and shocking as walking naked in the town. 
 And now imagine the situation. A man from e.g. Mumba-Yumba tribe from Central Africa (just jokingly) came to the U.S. and walked completely naked exposing his ... you know what. Because in his tribe it is considered normal to walk naked so that everyone could see the shape of his private parts. Quite logically, he was arrested in the U.S. for exposing his ... And after that the tribe leader starts accusing the U.S. government for discrimination of people who have a p..is. Sorry for that. But the whole situation around the anti-gay-propaganda law is very similar.

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## John_Douglas

Sorry I don't agree with you. 
If you're against any sexual propaganda targeting minors, then why have a law specifically targeting homosexual propaganda? The only reason is to single out homosexuals as a group for discriminatory treatment. 
Secondly, pretty much every show on TV, every song on the radio, every movie involves people talking about their sexual preferences. Nobody considers it shameful when a man says "this is my girlfriend and I want to marry her" but if he says "this is my boyfriend and I want to marry him" why should that be shameful? And even if you do consider it shameful, why does that mean it should be a criminal act? Again, it's a discriminatory law, taking rights away from homosexuals.  
That's what people are objecting to, the fact that discriminates against a group of people and reduces their rights.

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## John_Douglas

Я был в Москве в 2007м году, когда многие в западном прессе упрекали  правителство Москвы за то что не разрешили провести гей-прайд парад.  Тогда я не очень симпатично относился к тем западным гей-активистам -  хоть и сам я за равенство прав для геев, считал есть более актуалные  проблемы в российском обществе, при этом Россия более консервативная  страна США или Германия и не стоит осуждать за это, пытаться навязывать  собственные взгляды. 
А вот теперь ситуация совсем другая - новый  закон по-просту лишает гомосексуалистов их человеческих прав. Никто не  говорит, чтобы россияне поменяли свои мнения по поводу геев. Они просто  выступают против несправедливого закона.

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## Lampada

> Я был в Москве в 2007м году, когда многие в западном прессе упрекали правителство Москвы за то что не разрешили провести гей-прайд парад. Тогда я не очень симпатично относился к тем западным гей-активистам - хоть и сам я за равенство прав для геев, считал есть более актуалные проблемы в российском обществе, при этом Россия более консервативная страна США или Германия и не стоит осуждать за это, пытаться навязывать собственные взгляды. 
> А вот теперь ситуация совсем другая - новый закон по-просту лишает гомосексуалистов их человеческих прав. Никто не говорит, чтобы россияне поменяли свои мнения по поводу геев. Они просто выступают против несправедливого закона.

 _правительство
за то, что
за то, что не было разрешено
тогда я неодобрительно/ без симпатии относился к геям-активистам, 
хотя сам-то я и за равенство
актуальные 
страна более консервативная, чем США
не стоит осуждать её за это
попросту
россияне поменяли своё мнение_

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## Doomer

He may suggest to "ban" Olympics in Sochi but it's not going to happen - no country can provide better Olympics in such short time. That's why it's so easy to suggest it
I don't hear any athletes suggesting this BS, because they know that Olympics is not about gays, it's about sport and competition. Nobody suggested to ban Olympics 1980 in Moscow but being gay was punishable by law that time. 
When actors go to politics that's what happen, I would simply ignore him. 
All that gay hysteria is kinda tiring already

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## maxmixiv

> And even if you do consider it shameful

 Yes, I do. Funny, and still shameful.   

> why does that mean it should be a criminal act

 It doesn't.
"Это можно." (тов.Дынин) 
If there's a lot of disgraceful things and authorities take measures to remove some of them, why is it bad idea?

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## 14Russian

Doomer is incorrect (as usual)  ::     There is a movement to transfer the Olympics to Vancouver.  ::    It would be a good thing as the province of BC could add to their debt.   ::  
But, I am still awaiting an answer to my previous question.   Actually, I have two.  1) Why isn't anyone mentioning the propaganda that Russia has on its state TV?   I have made the argument and point that there is 'Western style' propaganda on their TV programs.   If there isn't anyone gay on some of these shows, coulda fooled me.   There's mixed messages in Russia and this is just one example.   Actually, Russians, themselves, should be using this in their defence.   'Hey, look at these programs.... we copy the West.' (except say it in Russian). 
The other question (2) is why aren't these Westerners protesting the Middle Eastern countries, Iran, Israel etc.   These countries sure aren't 'gay-friendly.'   But, everyone is attacking Russia...because, coincidentally, they happen to be hosting the Olympics?   I doubt that is the reason.   It is just easier to criticize them.   So much hypocrisy, so little time.  ::

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## iCake

> The other question (2) is why aren't these Westerners protesting the Middle Eastern countries, Iran, Israel etc.   These countries sure aren't 'gay-friendly.'   But, everyone is attacking Russia...because, coincidentally, they happen to be hosting the Olympics?   I doubt that is the reason.   It is just easier to criticize them.   So much hypocrisy, so little time.

 That is what I agree with

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## John_Douglas

> Yes, I do. Funny, and still shameful. 
> It doesn't.
> "Это можно." (тов.Дынин) 
> If there's a lot of disgraceful things and authorities take measures to remove some of them, why is it bad idea?

 Because it's not the role of the government to define what's disgraceful and what isn't. Everyone has the right to define for themselves what they consider to be a correct way to live. As long as they're not harming anyone else, the government should not intervene.

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## Lampada

> That is what I agree with

 You can drop Israel from the list: *First Official Gay Price March In Israel Sees 600 People* - YouTube ***Pride  
Published on *Jun 30, 2013*   _"Hundreds of Israelis took to the streets on Friday to take part in the first ever official gay pride march in Ashdod in southern Israel.  
More than 600 people marched together in the port city, which has a large religious population. 2000 people had been expected to march in the pride parade in Israel's fifth-largest city.  
At the same time, some 500 people took part in the annual gay pride march in the northern city of Haifa.  
Earlier in June, over 100,000 people took part in Tel Aviv's yearly gay pride event, which in recent years has become a well-known event throughout the world, attracting hundreds of tourists. Jerusalem also holds an annual gay pride event."_

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## Боб Уайтман

> Because it's not the role of the government to define what's disgraceful and what isn't. Everyone has the right to define for themselves what they consider to be a correct way to live. As long as they're not harming anyone else, the government should not intervene.

 A disputable statement. The key words are "As long as they're not harming anyone else". Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But what is "to harm someone"? Physically? Or morally, too?
If someone prefers walking naked, is he harming anyone else? Why does the government put restricitions on this kind of behavior?
Does saying to a child "Oh, boy! You know, being a gay is so cool! There is nothing abnormal in it. Two men can love each other, live together and make a family. Why not to try? The traditional family is outdated" harm the child's psychology?

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## Lampada

> A disputable statement. The key words are "As long as they're not harming anyone else". Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But what is "to harm someone"? Physically? Or morally, too?
> If someone prefers walking naked, is he harming anyone else? Why does the government put restricitions on this kind of behavior?
> Does saying to a child "Oh, boy! You know, being a gay is so cool! There is nothing abnormal in it. Two men can love each other, live together and make a family. Why not to try? The traditional family is outdated" harm the child's psychology?

 You are assuming here, double guessing about children in general. But what about real victims here? Gay children it is. It's a tragedy for them. 
No reply necessary, it's o.k., I do not expect you or anybody else to change their minds.

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## maxmixiv

> But, everyone is attacking Russia

 Yes, indeed, where were they during Olympics in China ?

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## Doomer

> Doomer is incorrect (as usual)     There is a movement to transfer the Olympics to Vancouver.    It would be a good thing as the province of BC could add to their debt.

 Well, sure 
Olympics can be moved theoretically to some village or Vancouver, but in that case probably would be better to cancel them at all
Sochi has the most advanced Winter Olympic stadiums/objects in the world by now (at least that's what athletes from around the world say) 
The thing is there were gay athletes all this time, and Olympics were hold in all the different countries with all the different laws and it didn't bother anybody. I don't see how these Olympics differ from the others  
Why not to ban Olympics in Sochi because Sochi is in Russia, thus athletes who don't speak Russian would have their "human right" to express their thoughts discriminated. Women don't have penises and men don't have vaginas that seems like another discrimination.  That's the same kind of BS. 
If gays wouldn't exaggerate their actions to show that they are gays - it wouldn't bother other people

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## Боб Уайтман

> The thing is there were gay athletes all this time, and Olympics were hold in all the different countries with all the different laws and it didn't bother anybody. I don't see how these Olympics differ from the others

 And Mr Obama's concerns that gay athletes will be "discriminated" in Sochi seem completely meaningless and pointless. How will the Russian government discriminate them? There is no "sexual preferencies" field in Russian visa at all!
Or are they going to come in order to tell Russian children how it is cool to be a gay, rather than to participate in competitions?

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## John_Douglas

> A disputable statement. The key words are "As long as they're not harming anyone else". Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But what is "to harm someone"? Physically? Or morally, too?
> If someone prefers walking naked, is he harming anyone else? Why does the government put restricitions on this kind of behavior?
> Does saying to a child "Oh, boy! You know, being a gay is so cool! There is nothing abnormal in it. Two men can love each other, live together and make a family. Why not to try? The traditional family is outdated" harm the child's psychology?

 If an adult is encouraging a minor to have sex, that's a crime regardless of the gender of the people involved. Just talking about sexual matters in an appropriate way in order to educate, or giving your opinion on families and traditions does not harm anyone. It might create some kind of conflict in the mind of a child, but that's not the same as harming. Children have to learn how to live in the real world and that means dealing with people of different beliefs and traditions. Trying to shelter children from the facts of life will ultimately harm them more by making it harder for them to cope when they grow up.

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## 14Russian

> If an adult is encouraging a minor to have sex, that's a crime regardless of the gender of the people involved. Just talking about sexual matters in an appropriate way in order to educate, or giving your opinion on families and traditions does not harm anyone. It might create some kind of conflict in the mind of a child, but that's not the same as harming. Children have to learn how to live in the real world and that means dealing with people of different beliefs and traditions. Trying to shelter children from the facts of life will ultimately harm them more by making it harder for them to cope when they grow up.

 Blah, blah, blah.   So, what about the Government interference of 'teaching' in schools?   There's sex ed to 'teach' about this or that.   If Government should stay out of it, they should stay out of it completely.   
I think this issue is all about the Russian Government distracting its populace from more serious issues/matters anyway.   I think people should be allowed to protest or parade or march or whatever but without Government money/funding.   If Government is to stay out of issues, then there should not be funding at all.   However, this doesn't happen in the West, does it?!?   The thought process is, once you give an inch, you end up giving a mile.   But, again, as I have said before, the Russian state shows all kinds of 'Western propaganda' but I don't see anyone discussing this.   I also don't see people who are discussing this issue pushing for other countries, say, in the Middle East, to relax laws and such.   It's funny how people always pick and choose which particular issue to have a strong opinion about and which country and so forth.   It's very telling.

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## Throbert McGee

> But what about real victims here? *Gay children* it is. It's a tragedy for them.

 “Whatever else it is, homosexuality is not a contagious disease like the measles. Prevailing scientific opinion is that an individual's sexuality is determined at a very early age and that a child's teachers do not really influence this.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1978 (Opposing a California bill to ban homosexuals from teaching in schools.) 
That was 35 years ago. Although the causes of homosexuality AND heterosexuality are still not known with certainty, the vast majority of scientists studying human sexuality now suspect that orientation (whether hetero or homo) is already becoming "neurologically hardwired" into the brain even before children have learned to speak their own native languages -- or even, to some degree, before a child takes its first breath of air. 
But some people prefer to believe that "gay children" are as imaginary as unicorns -- and the Russian government still wants to follow the зажать уши руками principle when Russian gays try to tell their own life stories.

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## maxmixiv

> I think this issue is all about the Russian Government distracting its populace from more serious issues/matters anyway.

 They do it constantly, but not in case of this law. The law is insignificant, nobody will discuss it inside Russia, as it was said, Russians don't care because it does not influence their lives.

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## UhOhXplode

I think the Winter Olympics will still be in Sochi!  ::  David Cameron rejected the stupid idea! David Cameron rejects Stephen Fry's call for a ban on Russia hosting the Winter Olympics - Home News - UK - The Independent 
Btw, it's not President Putin. I mean, what is a democracy? It means that the majority wins. The majority of the Russian people didn't want to have to deal with gay sex parad4es. So even if there wasn't a law, the majority of the people would still stop the parades. 
And if President Putin said no, you can't have a law against the parades, would he be working for the people or against them? 
There's tons of violence against gays in America and lots of gay people off themselves. Making gay parades legal never stopped that from happening. So if gay parades were legal in Russia then there would still be violence against gays there and in the US. That wouldn't disappear. 
As for me, I think it's all political and the olympics should NOT be all about politics, just sports. And no country has the right to tell another country what to do, period! 
Btw, did anyone notice that we aren't boycotting Middle East oil. And those countries are seriously anti-gay! 
Sochi has the most epic stuff for the Olympics and that's where the Olympics needs to be, period. 
And President Putin did say that the anti-gay-propaganda law would be lifted for the Olympics. I just hope they don't have any parades though cause that's NOT sports.

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## maxmixiv

Да! Миллиарды были изящно освоены доблестными российскими строителями, чтобы провести Зимние Игры в субтропиках!
А теперь нам говорят: мы не приедем! Это просто некрасиво  ::

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## 14Russian

> I think the Winter Olympics will still be in Sochi!  David Cameron rejected the stupid idea! David Cameron rejects Stephen Fry's call for a ban on Russia hosting the Winter Olympics - Home News - UK - The Independent 
> Btw, it's not President Putin. I mean, what is a democracy? It means that the majority wins. The majority of the Russian people didn't want to have to deal with gay sex parad4es. So even if there wasn't a law, the majority of the people would still stop the parades. 
> And if President Putin said no, you can't have a law against the parades, would he be working for the people or against them? 
> There's tons of violence against gays in America and lots of gay people off themselves. Making gay parades legal never stopped that from happening. So if gay parades were legal in Russia then there would still be violence against gays there and in the US. That wouldn't disappear. 
> As for me, I think it's all political and the olympics should NOT be all about politics, just sports. And no country has the right to tell another country what to do, period! 
> Btw, did anyone notice that we aren't boycotting Middle East oil. And those countries are seriously anti-gay! 
> Sochi has the most epic stuff for the Olympics and that's where the Olympics needs to be, period. 
> And President Putin did say that the anti-gay-propaganda law would be lifted for the Olympics. I just hope they don't have any parades though cause that's NOT sports.

 Who cares what Cameron says?  ::    Anyway, I think you miss the point and so I'll explain why I find fault in your argument.  
"It's not about President Putin?"  What does that mean?   The Olympics is all about politics, at least who is granted the location.   But, this issue is about do you agree or disagree with the Government preventing expression and based on what.   About parades:  if you allow one, you have to allow them all.   In the West, these gay parades get state funding and imho, that is unethical.   In some countries, there's loopholes the Government uses and they call it 'tourism' projects or whatever.   Russia wants to prevent these ideas from developing but people should say 'Нет' on their own.   Why does Government always have to do the thinking for the people?   I would be very wary with the Russian government dictating these policies and introducing laws to fight 'propaganda.'   I already proved that the TV programming is in contradiction to what the law supposedly is doing.   So, what is about?   I disagree with Maxim's assertion that this is not for distraction.   It's in the news every day and globally.   The Russians might not care about the issue but the fact that you have the West attacking Russia about it means people will talk about that.   Do you think Putin just woke up one day and decided to implement this law?   No one predicted the consequences?    I doubt it.   He knew this would be one law that the majority would tolerate the prevention of rights since they don't care about that section of society.    
I do think the West should stay out of it, though.  They are hypocrites as always.   They are the first to talk about rights when it's convenient but hypocrisy is a common theme.   
People should be allowed to have their opinions, though, without special interest groups trying to control what people think.

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## UhOhXplode

> *Who cares what Cameron says?*    Anyway,* I think you miss the point* and so I'll explain why I find fault in your argument.  
> "It's not about President Putin?"  What does that mean?   *The Olympics is all about politics, at least who is granted the location.*   But, this issue is about do you agree or disagree with the Government preventing expression and based on what.   About parades:  if you allow one, you have to allow them all.   In the West, these gay parades get state funding and imho, that is unethical.   In some countries, there's loopholes the Government uses and they call it 'tourism' projects or whatever.   Russia wants to prevent these ideas from developing but people should say 'Нет' on their own.   Why does Government always have to do the thinking for the people?   I would be very wary with the Russian government dictating these policies and introducing laws to fight 'propaganda.'   I already proved that the TV programming is in contradiction to what the law supposedly is doing.   So, what is about?   I disagree with Maxim's assertion that this is not for distraction.   It's in the news every day and globally.   The Russians might not care about the issue but the fact that you have *the West attacking Russia* about it means people will talk about that.   Do you think Putin just woke up one day and decided to implement this law?   No one predicted the consequences?    I doubt it.   He knew this would be one law that the majority would tolerate the prevention of rights since they don't care about that section of society.    
> I do think the West should stay out of it, though.  They are hypocrites as always.   They are the first to talk about rights when it's convenient but hypocrisy is a common theme.   
> People should be allowed to have their opinions, though, without special interest groups trying to control what people think.

 That's okay. I always miss the point if it's about politics.  ::  And no, I don't care what Cameron, Obama, Merkel, Putin, Hollande, or anybody else says. But somebody did since they posted that article. Well, here's another article. Even Obama says NO to boycotting the Olympics. President Obama says no to a boycott of 2014 Sochi Olympics - latimes.com 
Btw, did anybody thank Russia for making an awesome place for the Winter Olympics? Okay, I will. Thanks Russia!  ::   ::  
I disagree about the politics thing. It's the International Olympics Committee that decides who will host the games, NOT the governments. Politicians and gay people should NOT be messing up the Olympics!
And btw, imo, the gay sex parades cause more people to get hurt than the new law does. I would never hit somebody because they were gay. I wouldn't even treat them differently. But some people do and gay parades are the best way for people to see who's gay. Then they attack them.  
But it's still RUSSIA'S problem and the only people who should be dealing with it are RUSSIANS. Should Russia have protests and boycotts because nobody will sell me beer? It's my money, right? So why can't I buy beer? They discriminate against me and say I'm too young to buy beer and it's not fair! 
But I didn't write a letter to Russia and tell them to protest for me and boycott stuff. Why? Because it's NOT a Russian issue. It's an American issue about American laws. 
If everything was an International issue then all the countries would be the same and they are not. 
And no. I don't believe that President Putin is using that law to attack gay people. If that was the reason then he would have made it illegal to even be gay. But he didn't. So I think he wrote the law to protect them. If they aren't marching down the street with flags and talking about being gay, then mostly there wouldn't be that much violence.
Btw, the West is NOT right. If the West was right then it wouldn't have huge crime rates, tons of violence, tons of murders, and tons of riots. And the politicians wouldn't have to lie to all the other countries about almost everything.
Imo, America and the EU are total disasters! So why would any other country even listen to the advice of a total disaster? 
Anyway, the Russian people are NOT Americans or Europeans. They are Russians. That deserves a lot of respect. And friendship is all about respect. 
I respect Russians so I trust them to solve their own issues. They are doing that now. 
Oh, and btw, I cancelled my plans to march down the street with 2 hot girls half naked. LOL! I really didn't think anybody would be very interested or boycott the olympics if we just played video games in the den.  :: 
I don't have time for that anyway because I'm still working on my map of the 83 districts of Russia, grammar, and waiting for mom to get back home from shopping so I can put stuff away. Hurry up Saturday night!

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## Hanna

They are completely retarded, there is no logic to their case against Russia AT ALL! 
There is such blatant hypocrisy in this that I hope no MR member is stupid enough to fall for this nonsense.    *1.* *The reporting on this in European / American press is HYPOCRITICAL and lacks principle.* The laws in everyone's chic shopping/sun destination in the Arab Emirates are MUCH worse than Russia. Stoning, prison, or lashes! Not to mention Saudi Arabia, and virtually all other countries in the Middle East and Africa. Which we happily do business with, donate aid to, not to mention Saudi where loads of Europeans work for a couple of years to make fast tax-free money. But you'd better not be gay if you are planning this, or things could end VERY badly. As a male, you could leave without your ____ if you engage in homosexuality while there. So why is Russia singled out?   *2.* * It's NOT illegal or punishable in Russia to be gay! * It's only illegal to make a spectacle of it, or go around promoting it to children, which shows that Russians actually care about their children's lifestyle, innocence and health and have a bit of class! (The pride parades are vulgar and intrusive to people who don't share the sexual orientation of the participants -- the elderly, religious or families with children and others.). Let people live out their homosexual extravagant fantasies, AT HOME where it is not offensive to others.   *3.* *The laws regarding this reflects the majority view of Russian citizens.* No doubt about it. It's called DEMOCRACY for a government to respect people's views in matters like this, rather than listening to media in distant countries, who are just pushing their own nefarious agendas...  ! People who are concerned about democracy in Russia should be pleased that in this case the law has broad support and reflects the views of the majority.   *4. Russia has gay clubs*, a gay scene and people who are living openly gay lifestyles, some of whom are public figures. There is no issue here!   *
Ask yourself instead:* Why is Russia singled out in EU / US media as a country that discriminates against gays? Could it be part of the general agenda to portray Russia as an oppressive, dangerous country to steer clear of and treat with suspicion? 
The general line that Russia is un-denmocratic and brutal? Well let the Russians themselves complain if they have an issue, instead of pretending that we know exactly how everyone else should run their country.  
Look who is talking by the way! The countries who are spying on their own citizens, torturing whistleblowers, drone-bombing innocent people in Pakistan, Afgahanistan and Yemen and supplying terrorists in Syria with weapons... But all this is ok, because we are _so_ democratic and allow these wonderful and enrichening pride parade and encouraging a homosexual lifestyle. There is a rotten smell in this argument, but you are supposed to swallow it..  
Seriously - this whole issue is a joke!* If gay rights is something you are passionate about, then start by looking at the situation in the supposedly liberal Arab Emirates...* Or the African nations that your tax money goes to in the form of aid.

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## scotcher

I find Jews disgusting. I don't mind if they want to be Jewish in private but they shouldn't need to do it in public, and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to discuss Judaism with minors, that should be illegal. That's not oppressive though, right? So long as they're free to be Jewish in the privacy of their own homes then it's not discrimination. And anyway what about Saudi Arabia? They don't accept Jews there at all!

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## Basil77

> I find Jews disgusting. I don't mind if they want to be Jewish in private but they shouldn't need to do it in public, and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to discuss Judaism with minors, that should be illegal. That's not oppressive though, right? So long as they're free to be Jewish in the privacy of their own homes then it's not discrimination. And anyway what about Saudi Arabia? They don't accept Jews there at all!

 Your analogy is just stupid.

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## scotcher

> You analogy is just stupid.

 Great rebuttal.  
(Deleted. L.)

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## Hanna

> I find Jews disgusting. I don't mind if they want to be Jewish in private but they shouldn't need to do it in public, and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to discuss Judaism with minors, that should be illegal. That's not oppressive though, right? So long as they're free to be Jewish in the privacy of their own homes then it's not discrimination. And anyway what about Saudi Arabia? They don't accept Jews there at all!

 It was a rather clever analogy, for sure, but I think I can counter it.  
There is a difference between being a Jew and being homosexual in this context. 
One is offensive to a great deal of people in Russia, and the other isn't.  
And the Jews are not demanding to do a massive Jewish Pride parade and make some dramatic or offensive political and religious gestures that would provoke and offend others.  If they did, then probably that might not be appreciated either.  
Anyway, the Russians have decided that in THEIR country, it's ok to manifest religions like Judaism up to a point, but not have a dramatic homosexual manifestation. 
So what?! It's their country and nobody is harmed or suffers from this. Why is it anyone else's business?

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## Lampada

> I find Jews disgusting. I don't mind if they want to be Jewish in private but they shouldn't need to do it in public, and they certainly shouldn't be allowed to discuss Judaism with minors, that should be illegal. That's not oppressive though, right? So long as they're free to be Jewish in the privacy of their own homes then it's not discrimination. And anyway what about Saudi Arabia? They don't accept Jews there at all!

  

> You analogy is just stupid.

 Don't we have a sense of humor here? Can not recognize sarcasm?

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## Basil77

> Great rebuttal.  
> (Deleted. L.)

 I said that I find stupid to put similarities between nationality or religion and sexual orientation and you switched to personal insults. (Deleted.L.)

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## UhOhXplode

Our country claims that the gay parades and stuff increase awareness and sensitivity. Here's how much it helps.   

> Reported hate crimes committed against individuals because of their sexual orientation increased in 2007 to 1,265, the highest level in five years. Of all hate crimes reported in 2007, the proportion committed against lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) individuals rose to 16.6 percent, also the highest level in five years. According to the FBI's HCSA reports, gay men and lesbians have consistently been the third most frequent target of hate violence over the past decade.

 Hate Crimes Against Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, And Transgender Individuals - Confronting the New Faces of Hate 
Yeah, all that awareness and sensitivity is really helping gay people... not. 
Imo, Russia has the best gay laws in the world right now. America has the worst and it even affects people that aren't gay. Firefighters ordered into ‘gay’ parade back in court 
What happened to the firefighters human rights to Not be forced participate in a gay parade? 
What happened to their human rights to Not be harassed by gay people? 
How much did the gay marchers respect THEIR heterosexual orientation? - They didn't. 
America got the gay but our city didn't. There's only 112,000 people here so there's not enough gays for a gay parade.

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## DrBaldhead

> America got the gay but our city didn't. There's only 112,000 people here so there's not enough gays for a gay parade.

 Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

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## Eric C.

Am I the only one here who's wondering why the Russian officials made such extended use of the word "gay" in the law? They could've stated it as "public expression of one's sexual views or their propaganda to minors is illegal", and no one would've been offended; why did they decide to split the society by making statements like that in the law?

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## Hanna

> Our country claims that the gay parades and stuff increase awareness and sensitivity. Here's how much it helps.   Hate Crimes Against Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, And Transgender Individuals - Confronting the New Faces of Hate 
> Yeah, all that awareness and sensitivity is really helping gay people... not. 
> Imo, Russia has the best gay laws in the world right now. America has the worst and it even affects people that aren't gay. Firefighters ordered into ‘gay’ parade back in court 
> What happened to the firefighters human rights to Not be forced participate in a gay parade? 
> What happened to their human rights to Not be harassed by gay people? 
> How much did the gay marchers respect THEIR heterosexual orientation? - They didn't. 
> America got the gay but our city didn't. There's only 112,000 people here so there's not enough gays for a gay parade.

 In the Baltic States they simply didn't have enough gay people to do a proper parade. And the gay people themselves did not want to be in the parade for the most part. So activists from the UK, Sweden and Germany went there to "help" them get started with gay parades. Lord almighty. Foreign ambassadors and people like Hilary Clinton came to make speeches. It's almost forced on them. Meanwhile all public polls show that nobody is interested. The ANTI-pride protest is usually bigger than the parades themselves as far as I understand. This all seems very un-spontaneous and almost forced.

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## John_Douglas

Democracy is not the same as dictatorship by the majority. It is founded on the principle that everyone is equal before the law. The principle of majority rule does not supersede that. The majority cannot vote to deny the minority's human rights. 
Also it's not about holding gay pride parades. It's about laws that specifically target a group of people for discrimination.

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## UhOhXplode

> Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

 I live in a small city with my parents and the largest building here is 10 stories tall - I think we have 3 buildings that tall but most of the buildings are really old, especially downtown. The most popular music is country music or classic rock - It's not easy to check out new music here but we do get one radio station that has it, yay!  ::  Oh, and the most popular sports are American football and rodeo. 
Trust me, this isn't a city that gay people want to live in. We saw 2 gay dudes in a shop and when we walked in, they stopped talking and looked kinda worried. Now they keep talking in front of me but only if I'm alone.
My State is one of the most anti-gay states in America.
Did you see what happened at the gay parade in Russia? That happens a lot here but there aren't any gay parades.   

> Democracy is not the same as dictatorship by the majority. *It is founded on the principle that everyone is equal before the law.* The principle of majority rule does not supersede that. The majority cannot vote to deny the minority's human rights. 
> Also it's not about holding gay pride parades. It's about laws that specifically target a group of people for discrimination.

 Wrong. That's not the definition of democracy.   

> THE MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY:
> de·moc·ra·cy  \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\  government by the people; especially : rule of the majority. 
> THE OXFORD DICTIONARY:
> de·moc·ra·cy  \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\  Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
> From the French démocratie, from Late Latin dēmocratia, from Greek dēmokratia government by the people (As opposed to monarchy).

 Democracy is NOT about equality. It's only about self government. The Constitution of the United States of America is NOT about equality. And it doesn't even mention equality.
The ONLY American political document that even discusses equality is the American Declaration of Independence.
Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome were also democracies. That type of government was invented in Ancient Greece but the people were NOT treated as equals.   

> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript History of democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
A lot of what I study is Military History. The American Revolution, the military campaigns of Alexander the Great, and the rise and fall of the Roman Empire are part of those studies.
Btw, if you read the U.S. Constiution, you will learn that a unanimous vote is NEVER required to pass a law - unless it's about an amendment to the Constitution.
Translation - All American laws were passed by the majority of the people, NOT by everybody. And a lot of those laws DO TARGET minorities for discrimination.
Some groups that American laws target: Nudists (indecent exposure), exhibitionists (sex in public), alcoholics (DUI), people attracted to animals (beastiality laws), Mormons (can only have 1 wife), etc etc etc etc. 
Russia does not discriminate against gays and it doesn't oppress them either. Russia only discriminates against exhibitionism. 
And btw, if the word "gay" was used a lot in that new law, then maybe it was because the heterosexuals weren't the people who were making all the drama about sex.

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## maxmixiv

> This all seems very un-spontaneous and almost forced.

 Interesting, who is behind this all.
Quote from my favorite American film "Big Lebowski":
"It's all a goddamn fake.  Like Lenin said, look for the person who will benefit.  And you will, uh, you know,  you'll, uh, you know what I'm trying to say.."

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## Lampada

> Not enough gays for a gay parade. *This phrase alone gives me creeps*.

 В самом деле? Так же или сильнее, чем дети на этой фотке?

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## DrBaldhead

> В самом деле? Так же или сильнее, чем дети на этой фотке?

 If the guys from the picture on the left make you concerned about their rights more than the ones from the right picture, you might need to revise your views on hypocrisy such pictures.

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## Deborski

Well, I for one do not support a boycott. 
I would like to see gay athletes perform FABULOUSLY in Sochi with their heads held high!  I hope they win some gold and break some stereotypes! 
Too many people confuse pedophilia with homosexuality and it is patently NOT the same thing. 
A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to small children.  Pedophiles can be straight or gay.  In fact, I had a "discussion" with one pedophile (a Russian *heterosexual* man) right here at MR who openly (and proudly!) stated that he likes to go to Thailand and pay for sex with girls under the age of 13.  He said that he prefers girls before they "ripen" and that a man should try to marry a little girl before she reaches puberty, so that he can "mold her" to himself.  And he thinks that is "natural."  He even bragged about how many virgins he has "deflowered" - one of them, he said, was just nine years old. 
Of course, I was disgusted and horrified at this individual's blatant advocacy of pedophilia and I blocked him.  But I know that a lot of people would agree with him and see absolutely nothing wrong with forcing a little girl to have sex - while at the same time denouncing homosexuality as "unnatural" and "evil" and "harmful to children."  This reasoning makes no sense to me. 
Those of you who claim to be worried about your kids, are going after the wrong group of people. 
I could understand laws against pedophilia because pedophiles sexually ABUSE children!  But if adults want to have gay sex with other adults, why should anyone care?  It's hypocritical to be all up in arms about gays while turning a blind eye to pedophiles.  And pedophilia is rampant in the Russian Orthodox Church, just as it is in the Catholic Church, as Alexander Nevzorov recently pointed out.

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## Hanna

> If the guys from the picture on the left make you concerned about their rights more than the ones from the right picture, you might need to revise your views on hypocrisy such pictures.

 The picture are disturbing in DIFFERENT ways. Obviously the malnourished children are more immediately worrying. 
But it's a historical fact that civilisations that embrace homosexuality and become obsessed with money start to rot from within. 
Ancient Greece, Rome and pre-revolutionary France are well known examples.  
And what's happening to "The West" right now? Rotting from within, I'd say...  
I think the Russians have the right idea. Definitely not persecute gay people, but not encourage it either.  
But I realise the comment really annoys many here who are into polical correctness at all cost. And yeah, the Russian politician who said that Stephen Fry was sick is correct. He's written a book and appeared several times in media to discuss his horrible struggles with bipolar disorders since childhood. He's totally out of it for long stretches of time and he has tried to commit suicide multiple times. He's very talented but he is, in fact, a rather sick man by his own admission. He grew up at an all boys boarding school and having been engaged to a man from that kind of background who was struggling with homosexual temptation, I know a thing or two about how it doesn't in fact only come from within. There are external factors too.

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## Basil77

> And pedophilia is rampant in the Russian Orthodox Church, just as it  is in the Catholic Church, as Alexander Nevzorov recently pointed out.

 Sorry, but that's a bullsh!t. Who is that Nevzorov guy? That clown who used to broadcast "600 seconds" at Leningrad TV channel back in the end of 1980s - early 1990s? He was typical "The Onion"-tier journalist back then. Never heard about him since. Orthodox priests don't have to keep celibate like Catholic priests, most of them are married and have many children. Only Orthodox monks must keep celibate. I never heard about a single pedophile scandal in Russian Orthodox church. I'm not implying that there weren't any cases but for sure it can not be compared to what has happen at Catholic church. And pedophilia is A CRIME that is punished by Russian law. Anyone who try to claim that it's normal should be jailed immediately. I don't see any problem here.

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## Hanna

> boycotted Russia by pouring out their Stoli, even though exported Stolichnaya Premium Vodka is made in the independent country of *Latvia.*

 just what Latvia's long tortured economy needs! It's probably their biggest export product, along with cheap underwear. 
very sad!    
Vandalised street crossing outside the Russian embassy in Stockholm. 
Too bad these brainwashed losers couldn't find their way to the Saudi embassy, where it would make_ a lot more sense_ to protest! 
In  my childhood they were obsessed about antiimperialst struggles in the  3rd world. Then it was multiculturalism and immigration (SO cool and  awesome) and now it's homosexuality.... You cannot open a paper without  reading about it, article after article. It's totally insane and has  lost all proportions.  
The latest insane idea: Not only can  people get a free sex change in the state medical care for the last 15  years. But those who got it previously had to get sterilised as the one  condition for receiving this super expensive treatment for free. 
But  now some genius has come up with the idea that this was discriminatory  and these sex changed people will get massive compensation payments. All  this from the tax payers money, while pensioners have to wait months  for hip replacement surgery or weeks for urgently needed heart surgery.

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## Seraph

> ... it doesn't in fact only come from within. There are external factors too.

  There is no such thing as 'gay gene'. None of it comes from biochemistry.  This is a great problem, the attempt to frame various (many other things could be talked about) as being caused by genes or biochemistry or something.  Scientific frauds.

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## Deborski

> Sorry, but that's a bullsh!t. Who is that Nevzorov guy? That clown who used to broadcast "600 seconds" at Leningrad TV channel back in the end of 1980s - early 1990s? He was typical "The Onion"-tier journalist back then. Never heard about him since. Orthodox priests don't have to keep celibate like Catholic priests, most of them are married and have many children. Only Orthodox monks must keep celibate. I never heard about a single pedophile scandal in Russian Orthodox church. I'm not implying that there weren't any cases but for sure it can not be compared to what has happen at Catholic church. And pedophilia is A CRIME that is punished by Russian law. Anyone who try to claim that it's normal should be jailed immediately. I don't see any problem here.

 And immediately the insults begin.  Can you begin any sentence with something other than an insult, when you disagree?  And why insult me?  Simply because I have an opposing view?  I did not see you insulting or attacking the pedophile who was bragging about raping 13 year old girls...   
This is why I do not care to discuss this subject on this forum.  I get that you are angry about some myth about gay people "taking over your country" but I am not going to be fodder for you to attack. 
Alexander Nevzorov is a distinguished journalist and war correspondent whom I had the great honor and privilege of working with in Leningrad many years ago.  I am very encouraged to see that he is still speaking his mind and has not been shut down by the frothing-at-the-mouth religious right which wants to force everyone to believe exactly as they do.  So naturally, you felt compelled to immediately denigrate his character and insult him too.   
It's a pity that so many people on TV these days, in Russia and in America, are just loudmouthed shills for populist views.  Nevzorov has integrity, and that is exemplified by his ability to stand firmly for the truth even when the majority disagree.

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## Throbert McGee

> There is no such thing as 'gay gene'. None of it comes from biochemistry.  This is a great problem, the attempt to frame various (many other things could be talked about) as being caused by genes or biochemistry or something.  Scientific frauds.

 Biochemistry and genes AREN'T the same thing. 
It's undoubtedly correct that there is no such thing as "A gay gene," singular, that simply turns "gayness" on or off. (Simple explanation: even if such a gene were to appear by spontaneous mutation, it would be selected against, and within 20 or 30 generations, it would become much too rare for the observed rate of 1-5% for homosexual individuals. Another way to put this is that if there IS such a thing as a gay gene, probably less than 1% of homosexuals actually have this gene, and the other 99% are gay for non-genetic reasons --- in other words, "purely genetic" homosexuality is either non-existent, or else it's the rarest form of homosexuality. 
There might be such a thing as a complex of several genes (plural) whose combined effect that increase the odds of someone turning out homosexual -- though, again, it wouldn't be an ON/OFF switch, and some of the people carrying these genes would still turn out heterosexual, but not necessarily because of "external factors" like going to an all-boys school. 
It's also possible that homosexuality is totally non-genetic, AND YET MAINLY BIOCHEMICAL. For example, the levels of sex hormones in the uterus can have major effects on the fetal brain -- yet these hormone levels do not necessarily have anything to do with the fetus's own genetics. 
Finally, I would certainly agree that a lot of gay activists who know nothing about science have jumped on the "genetics" bandwagon. And I agree that the cause of homosexuality remains poorly understood. Nonetheless, I think it's likely that there is a biochemical cause for homosexuality, not because I wish for this to be true, but because I think it's likely that biochemistry plays a huge role in causing HETEROSEXUALITY. 
Let me repeat that another way: I don't believe that most people are born "blank slates" with regard to sexual orientation. I think it's far more likely that some combination of genes and hormones "programs" nearly everyone for heterosexuality, but in less than 5% of children, something goes slightly wrong in this biochemically-controlled process of wiring the brain, and the kid turns out homo. To put it another way, homosexuality is an uncommon (but not rare) side effect of the normal "heterosexualization" process in the fetal brain. 
By analogy, we aren't "blank slates" with regard to the number of fingers we have -- five is the norm for our species -- but neither is the development of five fingers guided by God or Angels in the mother's womb. Unconscious genes and hormones usually interact in a flawless and automatic way to give us five fingers on each hand, but occasionally something goes wrong in this process and a kid is born with only three, or six, or more.  
I would add that a lot of this remains speculative -- because we still don't understand very well how sex-hormones affect the fetal brain in humans. (We have lots of experimental data for other mammals like rats and sheep -- but, obviously, it's not ethical to remove a baby girl's ovaries and pump her full of testosterone in order to "see what happens.") I would tend to guess, however, that sometime in the next few decades, the claim that humans can be "born gay" will either be confirmed beyond doubt or disproven beyond doubt, as understanding of the brain/hormone connection improves.

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## Throbert McGee

> But it's a historical fact that civilisations that embrace homosexuality and become obsessed with money start to rot from within. Ancient Greece, Rome and pre-revolutionary France are well known examples.

 This statement is questionable for at least three reasons: 
(1) Has there ever been a civilization *that wasn't "obsessed" with money*? I would say that caring about money is that's practically a pre-requisite for being civilized.  
2) What does it mean to "embrace" homosexuality? I'm not sure exactly which examples you're talking about in France, but certainly in the loooong histories of classical Greece and Rome, homosexuality was tolerated under certain conditions, mocked in other conditions -- and the degrees of tolerance, when such existed, varied from one era to another. 
(3) Christianity became the state religion of Imperial Rome in 380 AD; Rome was conquered and looted TWICE within the next century (410 by the Visigoths and 455 by the Vandals). By your logical standards, then, the *embrace of Christianity* caused the internal rot of this once-mighty pagan empire much more quickly and devastatingly than any "embrace of homosexuality" did.

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## Throbert McGee

> The latest insane idea: Not only can  people get a free sex change in the state medical care for the last 15  years. But those who got it previously had to get sterilised as the one  condition for receiving this super expensive treatment for free.

 Hmmm. I would've guessed that sterilization is ALWAYS required -- not to prevent them from having kids, but because the testicles and ovaries are the source of the sex hormones that self-identified transsexuals consider to be THE WRONG KIND! For example, M-to-F transsexuals don't want the testosterone that their testicles are making -- they want estrogen, and in fact it's usual for MTFs to receive estrogen by injections. So I would've guessed that removing the testicles or ovaries would be the very first step! Plus, if you're a man trying to pass as a woman, why would you want to have a pair of *яйца* dangling unaesthetically between your legs?  
But possibly I was wrong -- some Googling gives me the impression that some FTMs don't bother having their ovaries removed; they just receive estrogen-blocking shots. Taking out the ovaries not only adds to the cost, but also, obviously, is totally non-reversible, whereas injections can be discontinued. (And, apparently, some self-identified transsexuals do in fact change their minds partway through the long therapy process.)

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## Throbert McGee

By the way, I am rather against the idea of using tax money to pay for transsexual surgery, but ESPECIALLY the idea of paying for procedures like breast implants for "MTFs" -- since fake boobs have no objective health benefits (whereas it MIGHT be justified to pay for their hormone treatment -- hormones have neuro-psychological effects, and therefore giving hormone shots to a clinically depressed transsexual might, in theory, help the depression better than anti-depressant pills alone). 
And with that issue aside, I've also heard that some very anti-gay regimes -- including Saudi Arabia and China, I believe -- have offered to pay for the transsexual surgeries of men arrested for homosexuality, even if these men don't ASK for the surgeries, and don't identify as women! In other words, the surgery is basically a condition for NOT being imprisoned, or for having the sentences shortened. Evidently, the regimes find that the easiest way to deal with homosexual men is to turn them surgically into heterosexual "pseudo-women". 
P.S. But *I don't rule out the possibility that transgender identity is "real", organic, and to some extent neurologically hardwired by fetal hormones*. As I wrote above, hormone/brain interactions are VERY complex even in mammals with brains a lot simpler than ours -- and at the present time, science doesn't understand them nearly well enough to exclude the hypothesis that transsexuals are literally "born that way." Or, perhaps, some percentage of them are "born that way," while others psychologically construct/invent a "trans identity" as their way of dealing with various traumas. In other words, there may be more than one "type of transsexual," just as there may be different types of homosexuality -- some forms that are "in the brain" (neurological) and other forms that are "in the mind" (psychological). Anyway, it's surgery as a THERAPY for "Gender Dysphoria" that I'm skeptical about, and not the claim that "Gender Dysphoria" exists. Part of me suspects that doctors fifty years from now will look back on sex-reassignment surgery as a horrifying sort of pseudoscientific quackery, as we now look back on lobotomies.  
P.P.S. One other thing that occurs to me -- it's important to understand that homosexuality and transsexualism are different/independent from each other, even if one accepts the hypothesis that both may ultimately have biochemical/hormonal roots. For example, some male-to-female transsexuals are attracted to men ("androphilic") ; they live as gay men "pre-surgery", but hope to live as heterosexual women after the surgery. But other MTFs are attracted to women ("gynephilic") -- and they hope to live as lesbians, not straight women.

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## Seraph

Everything that people do depends on biochemistry, but that does not mean that biochemistry is causing everything.   Identifiable non-biochemical factors are evident.

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## Throbert McGee

> Those of you who claim to be worried about your kids, are going after the wrong group of people.

 Just to be a devil's advocate, I'm prepared to admit that in some ways, Gay Pride Parades -- and gay culture in general -- can be Bad For Kids. But, more specifically, they're potentially bad for HOMOSEXUAL kids, while not necessarily being of danger to HETEROSEXUAL kids. 
I mean, to the extent that gay culture encourages promiscuous behavior, for instance, it's mostly "LGBT youth" who are likely to hear this siren-song and possibly behave promiscuously; straight youth don't really pay much attention to the messages that come from gay celebrities and gay media and gay parades. (Of course, heterosexual youth are also exposed to "pro-promiscuity" messages, but in general, THEY get such messages from mainstream heterosexual culture, and not from gay parades.) 
But even while there are problems within gay culture and reasons for objecting to a lot of the stuff that occurs in Pride Parades, I hope it goes without saying that *I do not give the Russian government an atom of credit for acting out of genuine concern for the ~3% of Russian teenagers who are coming to grips with their own homosexuality*. Rather, they're fixated on the notion that heterosexual kids will pick up the "habit" of sodomy the way other pick up the habits of vodka and nicotine -- by trying it, because they saw it advertised on TV.

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## Throbert McGee

> Everything that people do depends on biochemistry, but that does not mean that biochemistry is causing everything. Identifiable non-biochemical factors are evident.

 I've got to log off in a few minutes, but I'll say quickly: I agree that non-biochemical factors, including childhood socialization, are at work both in heterosexual and homosexual development. But I suspect that sexual orientation -- and gender behavior, and the subjective awareness of "being male" or "being female" -- all have biochemical roots that begin to take shape even before birth. (We KNOW that this things can be instinctive in animals whose brains are too simple to think about abstractions like "femaleness" or "opposite-sex-ness"; and it seems improbable to me that after millions of years of evolution, such instincts would have simply disappeared in recent human evolution.) 
I would also insist on the point that although "What causes heterosexuality??" is a question that most people -- even some scientists -- forget to ask, it's just the other side of the same coin as "What causes homosexuality??" Both questions should be asked at the same time, and understanding the neurological basis of the normal case (heterosexuality) will indirectly shed light on the mystery of homosexuality.

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## Deborski

> Just to be a devil's advocate, I'm prepared to admit that in some ways, Gay Pride Parades -- and gay culture in general -- can be Bad For Kids. But, more specifically, they're potentially bad for HOMOSEXUAL kids, while not necessarily being of danger to HETEROSEXUAL kids. 
> I mean, to the extent that gay culture encourages promiscuous behavior, for instance, it's mostly "LGBT youth" who are likely to hear this siren-song and possibly behave promiscuously; straight youth don't really pay much attention to the messages that come from gay celebrities and gay media and gay parades. (Of course, heterosexual youth are also exposed to "pro-promiscuity" messages, but in general, THEY get such messages from mainstream heterosexual culture, and not from gay parades.) 
> But even while there are problems within gay culture and reasons for objecting to a lot of the stuff that occurs in Pride Parades, I hope it goes without saying that *I do not give the Russian government an atom of credit for acting out of genuine concern for the ~3% of Russian teenagers who are coming to grips with their own homosexuality*. Rather, they're fixated on the notion that heterosexual kids will pick up the "habit" of sodomy the way other pick up the habits of vodka and nicotine -- by trying it, because they saw it advertised on TV.

 Most gay people I know are fed up with all the over-the-top flamboyancy too.  They are just people, and they get tired of being stereotyped as "swishy" or as "drama queens" or whatever else.  Those stereotypes do not speak for the vast majority of gays and lesbians, who just aren't all that "fabulous" really.  They don't like being singled out.  I'm sure my friends would agree that promiscuity is not a good thing to teach children.  That said, there are different kinds of gay pride parades.  I've taken part in some of them to show solidarity for my friends, and I didn't see any of the over-the-top, in-your-face wackiness that has been part of other parades.   
But that said, I think a lot of people DO confuse homosexuality with pedophilia and have unfounded fears that gay people want to molest their children.  That was the main point of my comment, because it seems that pedophilia is accepted and even condoned in some quarters whereas homosexuality is scapegoated and largely misunderstood.  The individual who was bragging about all the little baby girls he slept with in Thailand, said that there are many men who are exactly like him, and I don't doubt it.  I do not want to downplay the danger of allowing pedophiles to run free under the guise of it being "natural" to have sex with little girls.  I found it disturbing that I was the only one on that thread who disagreed with him and told him how disgusting he was.  I hear so many people say they are worried about their kids, and yet not a single person other than myself, was upset or concerned about this guy who was openly and proudly a pedophile.  But mention gay rights and suddenly all hell breaks loose!

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## Deborski

OK, regardless of everyone's views on gay rights - I am trying to get to the bottom of what is going on concerning the rules and their application during the games in Sochi. 
There appears to be a major disconnect between what I am seeing in Russian news sources versus what I am seeing in American news media. 
Most of the Russian news stories posted this week state that the new laws will *not* be enforced during the Olympics in Sochi.   
But most of the American stories I am reading say that the laws *will* be enforced. 
I'm not sure where the disconnect lies.  It appears that different officials in Russia are saying different things.  Alexander Zhukov, head of the Russian Olympic Committee, insists that gay rights will not be "interfered with" - if I am translating this correctly - except in the case of foreigners openly "propagandizing" minors.    Жуков пообещал не ущемлять права геев в Сочи -  
But according to an English-edition article from RIA Novosti, which all the American news media is sourcing, the interior minister of Russia has stated that the laws will be enforced.  Russia Confirms Anti-Gay Law Will Be Enforced at Olympics | Russia | RIA Novosti 
Then there is the BBC, which I am hoping has the real story.  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23674661 
Is it possible to get a clear answer about this?  If the laws are going to be strictly enforced, then I would support a boycott because I do not want to see athletes, spectators and journalists arrested for what might be perceived as "spreading gay propaganda." 
But if the laws are going to be suspended during the games, then a boycott seems spurious to me. 
Does anyone have a straight (pardon the pun) answer to this question...?

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## alexsms

I agree that Olympics should be more focused on sports and competition. So appealing to the afore-mentioned law is not quite logical (Cameron also said something like that). But it should be understood that ‘law’ in Russia doesn’t mean that it is introduced to make the life of the people better, and also ‘law’ in Russia is often not executed afterwards. The true meaning of that law to my mind is that powers-that-be are again trying to gain favor with the people (the majority of the people in Russia - due to cultural issues - consider non-straights as very strange and see them as a challenge to traditional relations). Powers-that-be know this and introduce this law to say ‘Hey guys, you see, we feel the same way as you do, we share your values…’ S.Fray is a British national and to him a law means something else compared to what it means to Putin and to many Russians (in Russia it’s often important for powers-that-be to appeal to core traditional values and not to logic, it just happens due to history and culture that these values are not ‘westernized’). So Putin and his clique may in reality have their actual views on homosexuality, it’s just more politically advantageous for them to introduce such a law at this time as way of dialogue with the Russian people (in the same way as him catching a ’21 kg pike’ and stuff like that, implying ‘Hey guys, I am a cool fisherman, that’s how I spend vacation…’).

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## alexsms

> Is it possible to get a clear answer about this?  If the laws are going to be strictly enforced, then I would support a boycott because I do not want to see athletes, spectators and journalists arrested for what might be perceived as "spreading gay propaganda."

 I am not sure as to how the law can be enforced for non-Russian nationals and athletes. There hasn't even been a case for a Russian citizen afaik yet. As someone said earlier in the thread, the athletes are not here to spread propaganda) they are here to show their best sport results.

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## Hanna

I think it's pretty clear that this is just a smear campaign against Russia by media in Western Europe and the USA.  
They can't find a lot of ACTUAL problems in Russia that aren't also present in their own countries. This is one of the few examples.  
And the "politically correct" cliques are very keen to jump on the boat, this is very much the latest and greatest PC topic of concern.   
In reality it's been established very clearly by gay Western people who live in Russia, that there is no actual issue - they are neither persecuted, nor ill-treated unless they make an absolute spectacle of themselves and/or  reach out to minors.

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## Lampada

> ...In reality it's been established very clearly by gay Western people who live in Russia, that there is no actual issue - they are neither persecuted, nor ill-treated unless they make an absolute spectacle of themselves and/or reach out to minors.

 I wish you were right Hanna.  In reality sadly it's not the case. 36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See

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## Deborski

I don't think there is an actual "smear" campaign, but I do think there is a lot of concern and confusion in the West over whether the "propaganda" laws will be enforced during the Olympics in Sochi.  And the confusion arises not just from whether nor not the laws will be enforced, but from the ambiguity of the laws themselves.  How do you define "propaganda"?  Does it relate only to literature or rainbow flags?  From my understanding of the law, it also applies to any pro-gay speech.  So what if someone has a few drinks in a pub and says something pro-gay?  Is he going to be carted off to jail and fined the $30,000 and expelled from the country?  What if a couple of gay American figure skaters are jubilant after winning some gold medals and they KISS in public (heaven forbid!)?  Will they be arrested because some Russian child saw them kiss?  Where does it end? 
These are the kinds if questions I want to know the answers to.  Sure, the games are about sports.  But the fact of the matter is that America, and many other Western countries, have openly gay athletes, especially in events like figure skating.  They are used to being open and honest about who they are and they do not live in shame or hide in a closet.  I am not sure they can just "pretend the gay away" while they are in Sochi.  I'm not even gay myself, and I worry that if I return to Russia I could accidentally speak my mind and find myself jailed, fined and expelled. 
Yes, most Russians are not "raging" homophobes.  I would describe the majority of Russians as "mildly" homophobic in that gay people make them uncomfortable and they prefer not to think about it or be confronted with it.  But there is an element of rage in Russia, as you can see in the photos Lampada shared, as well as in numerous videos of the gay parades held in St. Petersburg and Moscow.  At the 2013 parade in St. Petersburg, there were young dudes wearing black t-shirts that say "by the word of GOD" on them, they were carrying whips and they freely and openly beat the gay protesters with no resistance from police.  This isn't a "smear campaign" this was a Russian video which you can see for yourself.    
I commented on that video and was attacked by several angry Russian guys who called me names a Russian would have been ashamed to call a woman 20 years ago.  They told me that if I ever return to Russia, they would "beat me until I  cry tears of blood."  There was no misunderstanding that.  Quite frankly, I find it appalling.  But as some of my close friends in Russia tell me, normal heterosexual guys do not spend their time chasing gay men to beat them, because they are too busy chasing girls.  So I think these angry, abusive, hateful young men are actually gay themselves, but because of all the shame in their culture about being openly gay - and all the things "manly men" do together, like the баня and drinking vodka - they can not admit they are gay, not even to themselves.  And when they see someone else who dares to be openly gay it enrages them!  They want to quickly shut that person down, even kill that person.   
There are also skinheads in Russia who are kidnapping gay teenagers and torturing them on video.  The videos are posted on youtube and then the kids are *further*  harassed and beaten when they show up in public.  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3658636.html 
So, it isn't that the West is engaging in a "smear campaign" - it's that people in the west are seeing shocking brutality in Russia following the advent of these new "propaganda" laws, and it is outraging people.  I've tried to calm them down - you all know I love Russia despite this stuff - but people turn their rage on me if I say anything positive about Russia right now.   
I think Russian officials are going to need to be much more clear about what rules will be enforced in Sochi, as well as to what degree, because a growing number of people are supporting boycotts.  I do not, and the athletes do not.  In fact, the athletes - some of whom are gay - have stated they *want* to come even if it means they *will* be arrested.  http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...ssia-so-be-it/

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## Lampada

Russia and the* IOC* agree: Athletes and spectators shouldn’t be openly gay at the Olympics. Comments!!! 
Ага, "ж..а есть, а слова нет". ::   
Просто нарываются на неприятности. Там же полиции не хватит.

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## Hanna

> I wish you were right Hanna.  In reality sadly it's not the case. 36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See

 I agree that the pictures are disturbing and I certainly hope that the man who punched a gay person in the face is caught and punished.  
But I don't think this looks any worse than the pictures of the anti-banking demonstrations in London, or the violence against British students who wanted to protest against tuition fees at university. People participating in those demonstrations were even worse beaten up, and two people died during that time, as a result of police violence.

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## Eric C.

Everyone's free to have a choice of their own about anything, but if someone's choice is to make or "adjust" other people's choices as to how they live their lives, their choice MUST be altered; and it's not even close to the gay rights issue being the ONLY example here, the ex-USSR area has tons of others, except for maybe a few countries (the Baltic countries and such); there are some "morality and behavior templates" established by "the society", which many agree to, which is just frightening...

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## Hanna

> I don't think there is an actual "smear" campaign, but I do think there is a lot of concern and confusion in the West over whether the "propaganda" laws will be enforced during the Olympics in Sochi.

 So they should use common sense just like when travelling anywhere a bit different, take the approach of "better safe than sorry".  
I.e. cover up a bit in moslem countries, rather than running around in a tank top and shorts and complaining about being harassed. Don't "jaywalk" or drink alcohol in the street in the USA, don't bring up politics or religion in Northern Ireland and don't chew gum in Singapore.... Etc!   
They should respect the sentiment of the majority in the country they visit, or else don't go. It's not even hard in Russia, since it's quite a diverse country with a near Western culture. All that the gay visitor needs to do is refrain from making a homosexual manifestation or coming on to kids, for two weeks while visiting the Olympic in Russia. How hard is that?  
If a clean slate and flawlessness in the present, in terms of politics is required from all countries that host the Olympics is needed, then hardly no country would be worthy! Certainly not the ones that have hosted it recently, like China, the UK, the United States, Australia etc. Judge not, lest ye be judged!  I'm sure the rest of the world could have dug up lots  of good reasons to boycott each one of the previous and future Olympic hosts.

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## Lampada

> I agree that the pictures are disturbing and I certainly hope that the man who punched a gay person in the face is caught and punished.  
> But I don't think this looks any worse than the pictures of the anti-banking demonstrations in London, or the violence against British students who wanted to protest against tuition fees at university. People participating in those demonstrations were even worse beaten up, and two people died during that time, as a result of police violence.

 There is a slight difference between the anti-banking demonstrators/students and gay people: those demonstrators and students can make their own choice who or what to be.

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## Seraph

Quote from posting of excerpt of interview of Jane Goodall. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV6NYh83k5g 
"Jane Goodall makes some interesting points about homosexuality in nature. 
In chimpanzees, her clear forte, homosexuality is NEVER observed unless
extremely artificial circumstances are forced upon the chimps. 
She states the same is true for cattle and dogs. 
One wonders why this isn't grasped on to by the media... 
...well not really. Who'd want to invoke that kind of outrage? 
How interesting that in fishing for approbation for homosexuality from the
most iconic figure of the application of science to the animal to the
environmentalist world we find a bluntly honest woman who knows her stuff
laying down the facts."  
(another little wrinkle is that not all domesticated groups of those animals she talks about, display non-wild type behaviour.) 
 And so people can view an expert opinion for themselves, without speculation, rationalization, or anything else.
The evidence doesn't support the reductionist view.  It isn't biochemistry. 
Scroll down to question 8. full interview. Jane Goodall: Blessing the Animals - FORA.tv

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## Deborski

> So they should use common sense just like when travelling anywhere a bit different, take the approach of "better safe than sorry".  
> I.e. cover up a bit in moslem countries, rather than running around in a tank top and shorts and complaining about being harassed. Don't "jaywalk" or drink alcohol in the street in the USA, don't bring up politics or religion in Northern Ireland and don't chew gum in Singapore.... Etc!   
> They should respect the sentiment of the majority in the country they visit, or else don't go. It's not even hard in Russia, since it's quite a diverse country with a near Western culture. All that the gay visitor needs to do is refrain from making a homosexual manifestation or coming on to kids, for two weeks while visiting the Olympic in Russia. How hard is that?  
> If a clean slate and flawlessness in the present, in terms of politics is required from all countries that host the Olympics is needed, then hardly no country would be worthy! Certainly not the ones that have hosted it recently, like China, the UK, the United States, Australia etc. Judge not, lest ye be judged!  I'm sure the rest of the world could have dug up lots  of good reasons to boycott each one of the previous and future Olympic hosts.

 The difference between chewing gum in Singapore, or talking about politics in Northern Ireland, or not wearing a burkha in a Muslim country versus not "making a homosexual manifestation in Russia" - is that the first three examples are behaviors which one can choose to refrain from.  Being gay is _not_ a behavior, it is an *identity*.  Yes, I understand that people on this forum will disagree.  But since Throbert has already covered the behavior versus genetic aspects of gay life, I suggest rereading his post again.  They can certainly try to live in a closet, but it's almost impossible.  Could you pretend to be a man while visiting another country?  That would be a more exact comparison than the other ones. 
Additionally, the comment about "not coming on to children" reveals that you are confusing homosexuality with pedophilia.  I already covered this point, above.  Gay people do not have any interest in "coming on to children."   
I have traveled to many countries and I have always respected the laws there.  I worked on an archeological dig in Syria, in 48-C heat and covered my neck, wrists and arms so as not to offend the sensibilities of my Muslim co-workers.  I was not even allowed to mention Israel while I was there, so we referred to it as "Disneyland" lest we offend the religious sensibilities of Muslim people.  But they did not force me to change what I *am*.  That is a big difference. 
To be honest, traveling to Russia frightens even me right now, and I love Russia.  But even I cannot promise that I might not mention the fact that I have close friends who are gay, or say something equally factual and even though it is not intended as a provocation, it could be taken that way.  It isn't only the laws I am worried about, it's the angry skinheads and neonazis like the ones who attacked me after I commented on the video.  I did not say anything that deserved the level of hatred and hostility and threats directed at me.  I have encountered this same hostility right here at MR, on other threads.  It is very sad to me.  The Russia I remember was never this brutal and people were not so cruel.

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## Deborski

I still do not have a clear answer as to how the rules will be applied in Sochi during the Olympics.  I suspect that there is not a clear answer, that Russian officials are saying contradictory things, and that is why media coverage on this is so confusing right now.

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## Deborski

As regards homosexual behavior in nature, there is a plethora of examples of it.  List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../nyreview.html

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## Seraph

Did you listen to what she said?

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## Deborski

Did you read the links I posted?

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## Lampada

> Did you listen to what she said?

 I did. If I understood correctly something changes in species' biology with the loss of natural environment. So it appears that civilization advances also impact humans' biology. And dear Jane is much in favor of slowing population growth.

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## Seraph

The biology is not changed, the genetics not changed.  Behaviour and biology are not the same things.  The interviewer actually was mistaken when he mentioned evolution, as that involves genetic change.  People are confusing behavioural and biological things.  Essentially Jane Goodall is saying something very important about some control groups.   People are drawing incorrect conclusions about what are essentially experimental groups, as they are not paying attention, or don't understand what is being said about the control groups.

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## Eric C.

> The difference between chewing gum in Singapore, or talking about politics in Northern Ireland, or not wearing a burkha in a Muslim country versus not "making a homosexual manifestation in Russia" - is that the first three examples are behaviors which one can choose to refrain from.  Being gay is _not_ a behavior, it is an *identity*.  Yes, I understand that people on this forum will disagree.  But since Throbert has already covered the behavior versus genetic aspects of gay life, I suggest rereading his post again.  They can certainly try to live in a closet, but it's almost impossible.  Could you pretend to be a man while visiting another country?  That would be a more exact comparison than the other ones. 
> Additionally, the comment about "not coming on to children" reveals that you are confusing homosexuality with pedophilia.  I already covered this point, above.  Gay people do not have any interest in "coming on to children."   
> I have traveled to many countries and I have always respected the laws there.  I worked on an archeological dig in Syria, in 48-C heat and covered my neck, wrists and arms so as not to offend the sensibilities of my Muslim co-workers.  I was not even allowed to mention Israel while I was there, so we referred to it as "Disneyland" lest we offend the religious sensibilities of Muslim people.  But they did not force me to change what I *am*.  That is a big difference. 
> To be honest, traveling to Russia frightens even me right now, and I love Russia.  But even I cannot promise that I might not mention the fact that I have close friends who are gay, or say something equally factual and even though it is not intended as a provocation, it could be taken that way.  It isn't only the laws I am worried about, it's the angry skinheads and neonazis like the ones who attacked me after I commented on the video.  I did not say anything that deserved the level of hatred and hostility and threats directed at me.  I have encountered this same hostility right here at MR, on other threads.  It is very sad to me.  The Russia I remember was never this brutal and people were not so cruel.

 I'd say it's still even more than that; no one should have any possible right to tell others whether or not to chew gum, or what clothes to wear (or do anything else of that kind, that is trying to affect someone else's way of life); places where the majority doesn't realize this have serious problems, and one of the world community's priority tasks is to do anything possible to reduce the numbers of such places.

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## Lampada

Is anybody tired of the fact that we don't hear each other? _Гласы вопиющих в пустыне..._

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## Lampada

> The biology is not changed, the genetics not changed. Behaviour and biology are not the same things. The interviewer actually was mistaken when he mentioned evolution, as that involves genetic change. People are confusing behavioural and biological things. Essentially Jane Goodall is saying something very important about some control groups. People are drawing incorrect conclusions about what are essentially experimental groups, as they are not paying attention, or don't understand what is being said about the control groups.

 Не знаю, я не антрополог, но в Гугле есть что-то о биологических изменениях:  *How City Living Is Changing Human Biology | IdeaFeed | Big Think * http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs...nalCode=anthro  _"Culture causes behavior by causing changes in our biology. ... is as much part of human biology as bipedal locomotion, and cultural and genetic influences on ..._ http://www.des.ucdavis.edu/faculty/R...eIsBiology.pdf

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## Throbert McGee

> insists that gay rights will not be "interfered with" - if I am translating this correctly - except in the case of foreigners *openly "propagandizing" minors*.

 Which means what, exactly? (I'm not asking _you_, Deborski!) The question is, what does "propagandizing homosexuality to minors" mean to the Russians responsible for enforcing the law? And does the burden of proof fall on the government prosecutor, to show that someone's speech or behavior "promotes homosexuality to minors"? Or does the burden fall on the defendant, to show that his/her speech does NOT "promote homosexuality to minors"? 
Shhhh.... no one tell the Russian government that THIS is pro-homosexual propaganda:    
0:14-0:20 - "You know, people like YOU were the reason I was afraid to go to school as a child..." _[*wham* *bam* *whack-kick-smack*]_ 
Apparently the clip is also of interest to heterosexual men who like to see women's feet in slow-motion... sorry I couldn't find a shorter version! But, trust me, the_ X-Men_ franchise is nothing but pro-homosexual propaganda from start to finish, even though it doesn't have rainbow flags all over it...

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## Deborski

> Which means what, exactly? (I'm not asking _you_, Deborski!) The question is, what does "propagandizing homosexuality to minors" mean to the Russians responsible for enforcing the law? And does the burden of proof fall on the government prosecutor, to show that someone's speech or behavior "promotes homosexuality to minors"? Or does the burden fall on the defendant, to show that his/her speech does NOT "promote homosexuality to minors"?

 That is exactly my concern.  The law is ambiguous at best.  Just about anything could be construed as "gay propaganda."  For example, I have lots of rainbow colored jewelry - not at all connected to the gay rights movement - but if I wore it in Russia, or if I wore anything multicolored, or if my husband wore his rainbow suspenders, what would happen?  If I'm having a few drinks in a pub and I mention that my husband's uncle is gay, is that "propaganda"?   
I have no idea.  The law is utterly ambiguous and open to anyone's interpretation, I think.

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## Throbert McGee

A more serious thought that occurred to me about the "are people born gay?" question. As Deborski, Lampada, and others living in the States can attest, so-called "ex-gay therapists" who claim that homosexuals can become heterosexual through a combination of prayer, faith, and Freudian psychoanalysis have been controversial for many years. And for the most part, they're controversial because such therapy hardly ever works as promised, and the number of dissatisfied clients goes into the tens of thousands.  
For homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual because it conflicts with their religious faith, this ex-gay therapy may indeed help them to avoid homosexual activity, but it doesn't cause them to lose interest in the IDEA of sleeping with persons of the same sex -- nor does it cause them to develop an interest in heterosexual activity. They just become celibate gays, in other words, which is much less than what the ex-gay therapy advertises. 
Anyway, I think it's worth noting that *the clients of these ex-gay therapists are, in nearly all cases, gay men and women who were raised in extremely conservative religious environments*; who spent their childhoods NOT seeing "pro-gay propaganda," and instead listening to preachers talk about how much Jesus hates the wicked sin of sodomy; but for some mysterious reason...  *...they turned out totally homosexual anyway*, and started to realize when they were 12 or 13 years old or so that falling in love with and kissing and sleeping with someone of the same sex sounded like the greatest possible thing in the entire world. No one put this idea into their head -- in fact, *they grew up completely surrounded by the very opposite of this idea* -- but they just knew. Or, rather, some unconscious part of their brainstem just knew it was true, automatically, on a level that transcended rational will. (When you're a 13-year-old boy sitting in algebra class, незваная эрекция хуже татарина -- why do so many people have trouble understanding this elementary fact, and what it implies about the alleged "choice" of sexual orientation?) 
But anyway, I also wanted to recommend the documentary Trembling Before G-d, about gays and lesbians who came from a family background of so-called Ultra-Orthodox Jews -- also known as the _haredim_, which more or less means "they who tremble" in Hebrew. Not only are their religious views extremely conservative, but they are also known for their tendency to avoid the "secular" world and its media. In short, they grew up with practically zero exposure to the type of "homosexual propaganda" that the Russian government is trying to shield Russian kids from -- yet, *по щучьему велению*, they turned out gay.  
Anyway, the documentary is made for a "general" audience -- i.e., you don't have to be familiar with gay life or Judaism or Ultra-Orthodoxy -- and it brings up some interesting points about, for example, the difference between "homosexuality" and "gay identity," and also examines the seeming mystery of why some gay people from extremely conservative and vocally homophobic religious cultures attempt to remain inside those cultural structures.

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## Deborski

I read about that documentary before, Thobert, but did not watch it yet.  I have seen others.  You're right that "gay therapy" doesn't work.  It often leads to suicide.  And not only is it harmful to the person who is trying not to be gay, it can also hurt a lot of other people, too.  There are frequent stories in the news about conservative fundamentalist types involved in sexual scandals.  Sometimes, they will marry women and have children so that they can maintain their "image" as a family man.  They do this so that they can be accepted by conservative society, hold their jobs, make good money and live well.  But at the same time, they will often have secret affairs with other closeted gays on the side, and sometimes these secrets are exposed on the news.  I'm sure you've heard of the conservative politicians caught having sex with other men in airport bathrooms, etc.  These stories actually happen with alarming frequency.  This is devastating to their wives, their families and everyone they lied to.  It would be a better world, I think, if they could just be openly gay and not deceive so many people!   
Here is an article about just twenty-five of them, although if you google you can find hundreds.  And often it is the most outspoken, virulently homophobic conservatives who ultimately turn out to be closet gays!    Gay Political Scandals: 25 Politicians Who Have Faced Claims About Their Sexuality 
Ted Haggard also comes to mind.  He was the raging, frothing-at-the-mouth homophobe and pastor of "New Life Church."  Disgraced pastor Haggard admits second relationship with man - CNN.com 
I have no doubt that many people live double lives in Russia.  In fact, Anton Krasovsky, a well-known television presenter, just lost his job after he came out on TV:  Антон Красовский: 
Brave man, Krasovsky.  He was punished severely by his employers and now he lives in fear for his life.  But despite his fear, he came out anyway.  I am in awe of his courage, really.  Russian TV Presenter Comes Out on Air, Gets Fired | Advocate.com 
In this column, he explains why he came out in his own words, and he had the guts to say everything.  Reading his story brought me to tears.  So much courage!  I came out because gay people in Russia are suffering – it's time for courage | Anton Krasovsky | Comment is free | theguardian.com

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## Lampada

> For homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual because it conflicts with their religious faith, this ex-gay therapy may indeed help them to avoid homosexual activity, but it doesn't cause them to lose interest in the IDEA of sleeping with persons of the same sex -- nor does it cause them to develop an interest in heterosexual activity. They just become celibate gays, in other words, which is much less than what the ex-gay therapy advertises. ...

 Какие "homosexual activity"?  Тогда какие такие будут heterosexual activity?
 Ужасно коробит, когда в разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс, как вроде бы это самое главное и отличительное в их жизни. 
 Мы уже давно знаем, что геи абсолютно обыкновенные люди, и для них, как и для не геев, главное - это встретить настоящую любовь и иметь романтические, серьёзные отношения.

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## pushvv

>>>разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс
А как иначе оО. Вокруг этого, в сущности, вся проблема. 
А по поводу пропаганды и ортодоксальных обществ... You can not avoid information nowadays. And. Many people can not fit properly in this world. Contradictions may cause interesting ways of thinking.

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## alexsms

> Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

 You mean not enough Jews for a Bar Mitzvah?

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## alexsms

OK, This is the actual law everyone is talking about. There is no word 'gay' or 'homosexual' here)). I think there is no need to translate it? 
Статья 6.21. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних (введена Федеральным законом от 29.06.2013 N 135-ФЗ)  1. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток 
2. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от пятидесяти тысяч до ста тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от ста тысяч до двухсот тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток. 
3. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные иностранным гражданином или лицом без гражданства, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации либо административный арест на срок до пятнадцати суток с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации. 
4. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные иностранным гражданином или лицом без гражданства с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа в размере от пятидесяти тысяч до ста тысяч рублей с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации либо административный арест на срок до пятнадцати суток с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации.

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## maxmixiv

> Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

 не хватило мужской силы    ::

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## Hanna

> The difference between chewing gum in Singapore, or talking about politics in Northern Ireland, or not wearing a burkha in a Muslim country versus not "making a homosexual manifestation in Russia" - is that the first three examples are behaviors which one can choose to refrain from.  Being gay is _not_ a behavior, it is an *identity*.

 Yes, but haven't you checked what the law is about? 
It's NOT outlawing actually BEING homosexual, having homosexual relations or going to gay bars..  
It's some specific acts that it is referring to, that anybody gay or straight, could refrain from doing.  
Just like I can go to Lebanon and refrain from wearing shorts and a tank top, or go to Germany and refrain from constantly bring up the war. Or in the case of Russia; refrain from making a gay manifestation even if I happened to be gay.  
A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.  
However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.  
I agree that if it was illegal to actually BE gay, then that would be wrong, since gay people for the most part cannot change. 
The article goes on to explain that Rusisan lawmakers essentially don't care about foreign views on this as they are trying to please their own "deeply conservative" public about this, and the law is reflecting public opinion in Russia.   _So why would we respect public opinion when we visit North Africa, Northern Ireland and lots of other countries that have quirks.... but not Russia?  
Take the example of Saudi Arabia where all women visting or working there (my sister did, for example) are forced to wrap themselves up in full moslem gear. She didn't like it, but she had chosen to work there and was aware that any other form of dress would have been offensive and against the law. That is a much more radical example of a country that is very rarely critisized. The Russian law is not forcing people to wear special clothing or anything dramatic like that; nor is it meddling in people's private lives, only in how they behave in public. _

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## Deborski

> Yes, but haven't you checked what the law is about? 
> It's NOT outlawing actually BEING homosexual, having homosexual relations or going to gay bars..  
> It's some specific acts that it is referring to, that anybody gay or straight, could refrain from doing.  
> Just like I can go to Lebanon and refrain from wearing shorts and a tank top, or go to Germany and refrain from constantly bring up the war. Or in the case of Russia; refrain from making a gay manifestation even if I happened to be gay.  
> A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.  
> However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.  
> I agree that if it was illegal to actually BE gay, then that would be wrong, since gay people for the most part cannot change.

 Yes, I saw Alex's post about the law.  It's a semantics game, Hanna.   
It's like saying that it's not illegal for you to be a woman.  But if you use tampons, or maxipads, or if you wear dresses or makeup or if you speak about women's rights, you are spreading "propaganda" and should be arrested.  In other words, you can be female, but don't let anyone know you are female or we will arrest you. 
It's similar to the "don't ask don't tell" policy America's military used to have.  It wasn't a crime to be gay, but telling anyone you were gay was a crime. 
In some ways, this new law is even worse than the old Soviet law which simply made it a crime to be gay, because it is extremely ambiguous.  Painting rainbows on someone's fingernails shouldn't matter, shouldn't offend anyone, and certainly shouldn't be interpreted as "propaganda" - and yet, it can be.  It all depends on who is doing the interpreting.  Is it the prosecutor, as Throbert asked?  Or is it the responsibility of the "suspect" to prove it is not propaganda?   
And anyway, beyond the ambiguous wording of the law, there is an undeniable hostility towards gay people right now, as exemplified by all of the articles and pictures already posted in this thread.  The Orthodox Church appears to gives tacit, but unspoken, approval of the persecution of gays, much as churches in America give passive support of individuals who bomb abortion clinics and murder gynecologists.

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## Lampada

> Yes, but haven't you checked what the law is about? 
> It's NOT outlawing actually BEING homosexual, having homosexual relations or going to gay bars..  
> It's some specific acts that it is referring to, that anybody gay or straight, could refrain from doing.  
> Just like I can go to Lebanon and refrain from wearing shorts and a tank top, or go to Germany and refrain from constantly bring up the war. Or in the case of Russia; refrain from making a gay manifestation even if I happened to be gay.  
> A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.  
> However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.  
> I agree that if it was illegal to actually BE gay, then that would be wrong, since gay people for the most part cannot change.

 Thank you for agreeing and understanding that gay people cannot change.  (Most of them at some point would wish they could).  
Their problem though, interestingly enough, is that sometimes gay people are not difficult to recognize even without any gay manifestion.

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## Deborski

> Thank you for agreeing and understanding that gay people cannot change.  (Most of them at some point would wish they could).  
> Their problem though, interestingly enough, is that sometimes gay people are not difficult to recognize even without any gay manifestion.

 That is so true, Lampada.  A close friend of mine is a lesbian and she has told me all about her life and how hard it has been.  She often wished she did not have to be gay.  She was in the closet for many years and even married a man and had two sons, then later came out of the closet and admitted she was only sexually attracted to women.  It took her years to get to the place where she finally found the courage to be honest about who she was.  Her sons, by the way, are good kids!  One of them is a skydiving instructor.  The other one works for a company in Germany.  Despite all that their family went through, they stuck together and supported each other. 
Forcing people to hid who they are creates more problems than it solves, in my opinion.  There are stories in the US media almost every day about some famous conservative politician who has a wife and kids and makes a ton of money, who turns out to be gay.   
I could understand if Russia had passed laws against public expressions of pornography (gay or otherwise), or if they had had passed laws against public indecency, running around naked in public, or publicly displaying sexual toys like dildos, etc.  But instead, the laws are about "пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений".... what does that even mean, "non-traditional"....?  Is a live-in arrangement where the couple is not formally married "non-traditional"?  It's just so ambiguous.

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## Deborski

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/wo...pagewanted=all  _From the article:_ 
 Mixed signals from senior Russian officials over how the propaganda law might be enforced during the Games have undercut assertions by the International Olympic Committee that gay athletes and spectators have nothing to worry about, and have left organizing officials facing harsh criticism and demanding clarifications from the Kremlin. 
There have been comparisons to Nazi Germany as host of the 1936 Olympics inside and outside Russia, including one by Jay Leno during an interview with President Obama last week on “The Tonight Show.” 
“Something that shocked me about Russia,” Mr. Leno told the president. “Suddenly, homosexuality is against the law. I mean, this seems like Germany: Let’s round up the Jews. Let’s round up the gays. Let’s round up the blacks. I mean, it starts with that.” 
Mr. Obama, on Mr. Leno’s show and again at a White House news conference on Friday, noted that Russia was not alone in its treatment of gay people, but he denounced the legislation and said he expected Mr. Putin and the Russian government to prevent any discrimination in Sochi. 
“I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgendered persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them,” he told Mr. Leno. At the White House, Mr. Obama said he opposed a boycott of the Games, but added, “Nobody is more offended than me by some of the antigay and lesbian legislation that you’ve been seeing in Russia.” 
Russian officials say the criticism is unfair and inaccurate. In 1993, Russia repealed the Soviet-era law that made gay sex a crime. 
“This is not about imposing any kind of sanctions against homosexuality,” Mr. Putin said, defending the propaganda law at a news conference in June. “This is about protecting children.” 
He added: “The law does not in any way infringe on the rights of sexual minorities. They are full-fledged members of our society and are not being discriminated against in any way.” 
Gay rights advocates disagree, saying the law is vague and can be used to arrest anyone who appears to support gay rights.

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## Deborski

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater 
For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors. 
Behold, the horror of these painted nails!     
As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about!  Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag!  In fact - worse than that!  It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

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## Eric C.

> A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened. 
>  However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.

 How can it possibly be showing disrespect to a country? (or any particular person at all)

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## Deborski

I do want to thank all the people on this thread who have kept this discussion civil!  I know how volatile this issue is.  It is nice to be able to discuss it without delving into a flamefest of name-calling and character assassination.  Thanks everyone who has the maturity to agree to disagree. 
And Hanna, I really do respect and appreciate the honesty it took to admit that gay people cannot change.

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## Deborski

Swedish Athletes Sport Rainbow Nails In Moscow  http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...3b2_story.html

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## Eric C.

> Swedish Athletes Sport Rainbow Nails In Moscow  World champion Isinbayeva condemns homosexuality, criticizes Swedes for rainbow-colored nails - The Washington Post

 I would consider it huge disrespect for myself if I was spoken for in such a manner. Is anyone entitled to manipulating other people's opinions which they don't even have a clue of? (speaking "for the nation" is really a bright example of this) How do you Russian people even put up with things like that?

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## Eric C.

> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater 
> For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors. 
> Behold, the horror of these painted nails!     
> As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about!  Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag!  In fact - worse than that!  It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

 Judging from the first comments on top, most of the Russians there (if not all) gave their support to the Swedish athlete, and condemned the Russian one for what she said (in fact, it looks more like they were mocking her and making fun of her for that)

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## Paul G.

I've no doubt, my sudden appearance in this thread will close it for sure.

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## Deborski

> Judging from the first comments on top, most of the Russians there (if not all) gave their support to the Swedish athlete, and condemned the Russian one for what she said (in fact, it looks more like they were mocking her and making fun of her for that)

 Cool!  Looks like there have been some additional comments added since I posted.  Glad to see that.  I especially liked this one - great sarcasm:   

> Елена, иди в думу и напиши такой закон, чтобы тебе спасибо сказали все последующие поколения, которых ты оградишь от этой мерзости .

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## Deborski

Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn | Psychology Today _
From this article:_ 
One study asked heterosexal men how comfortable and anxious they are around gay men. Based on these scores, they then divided these men into two groups: men that are homophobic, and men who are not. These men were then shown three, four-minute videos. One video depicted straight sex, one depicted lesbian sex and one depicted gay male sex. While this was happening, a device was attached to each participant's penis. This device has been found to be triggered by sexual arousal, but not other types of arousal (such as nervousness, or fear - arousal often has a very different meaning in psychology than in popular usage). 
When viewing lesbian sex and straight sex, both the homophobic and the non-homophobic men showed increased penis circumference. For gay male sex, however, only the homophobic men showed heightened penis arousal. 
Heterosexual men with the most anti-gay attitudes, when asked, reported not being sexually aroused by gay male sex videos. But, their penises reported otherwise. 
Homophobic men were the most sexually aroused by gay male sex acts.

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## maxmixiv

> Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo

 This is how we comment on EVERYTHING. I guess it is purely of boredom.
Also, I could not find rainbows on her nails.
Also, rainbows is a beautiful  nature's phenomenon and we will not farm out it to neither NATO nor OPEC

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## Deborski

> This is how we comment on EVERYTHING. I guess it is purely of boredom.
> Also, I could not find rainbows on her nails.
> Also, rainbows is a beautiful  nature's phenomenon and we will not farm out it to neither NATO nor OPEC

  ::   ::

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## alexsms

> I would consider it huge disrespect for myself if I was spoken for in such a manner. Is anyone entitled to manipulating other people's opinions which they don't even have a clue of? (speaking "for the nation" is really a bright example of this) How do you Russian people even put up with things like that?

 Agree 100% here, Eric. I've read what this Russian athlete said here Isinbayeva says Green Tregaro's gesture was disrespectful to Russia | Sport | theguardian.com and I do consider it disrespect because she is speaking 'for the nation' as if she is convinced that 'the nation' should think the way she does, and that 'the nation' should have a single opinion which coincides with hers. Speaking for the nation in such a way makes one look stupid. 
As for the rainbow looking nails on the Swede's hands, does it look like 'promotion of something' ?- the word promotion is used by The Guardian to translate the Russian word пропаганда.

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## Deborski

Каспаров: "Бойкотируйте Путина, не игры в Сочи"  _From this article:_ 
Бойкот Сочи, который нужен, – это бойкот Игр мировыми лидерами, знаменитостями и спонсорами. Не приезжайте в Сочи сидеть рядом с Путиным, делая вид, что этот мир отделен от созданного им полицейского государства. Пусть места на стадионах останутся свободными, особенно VIP-секции, которые, как надеется Путин, будут заполнены президентами и премьер-министрами... 
...Политикам нельзя позволить использовать атлетов как щит для собственной трусости. Мир будет наблюдать".

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## iCake

pic_1eb1c3e4d23ca12002f3542f1e3e5ef8.jpg 
Everything will be okay with that. Don't worry  ::  No gay persecutions, apparantly

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## Paul G.

> Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn | Psychology Today

 Definitely, the research was realized by 'the British scientists' (tm# in the interests of gay lobby. (Deleted. L.)

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## Lampada

Snotr : Mobile ::

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## Lampada

> Definitely, the research was realized by 'the British scientists' (tm# in the interests of gay lobby. #Deleted. L.#

 Some the most fervent anti-gays may turned out to be gays themselves. ::       *Anti-Gay Homophobic pastors/politicians who turn out to be gay* 
(Close Captured)

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## Lampada

*Anti-Gay Christian Lives 'Undercover' As Gay For a Year * (close captured)

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## Lampada

> I've no doubt, my sudden appearance in this thread will close it for sure.

 No, it won't be. You can keep trolling and I'll keep deleting it. ::

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## 14Russian

> No, it won't be. You can keep trolling and I'll keep deleting it.

 That's no surprise.   'Don't agree with it and it's deleted.... and allowing certain people to have the last word before closing threads, too.   Also, you're really Russian... lol 
Certain forum categories here are useless to participate in unless you share the mod's p.o.v.   Don't waste your time, Paul.

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## Deborski

> That's no surprise.   'Don't agree with it and it's deleted.... and allowing certain people to have the last word before closing threads, too.   Also, you're really Russian... lol 
> Certain forum categories here are useless to participate in unless you share the mod's p.o.v.   Don't waste your time, Paul.

 It isn't about anyone's point of view.  It's about keeping the discussion civil.  Paul has personally attacked me in several other threads.  I am glad that someone is moderating him and anyone else whose idea of "debate" includes badmouthing people personally, attacking their character and making rude, insulting comments. 
There are plenty of people on this thread who have expressed their opposition to gay rights in much more polite terms, and they have not been "censored" in any way. 
Lampada is doing an excellent job.  I for one, applaud her. 
Also, I am not sure what the "you're really Russian" comment means.  You're really Canadian.  And so what?

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## Deborski

Really, Mr. Putin? HITLER suspended its anti-gay laws during the 1936 Olympics, but Russia won't do the same for next year | Mail Online _
From this article:_ 
As gays and lesbians express outrage that Russia's anti-gay laws will bring a disturbing level of intolerance to the 2014 Olympic Winter Games in the resort town of Sochi, it has emerged that Adolf Hitler, who instituted the most absolutist anti-homosexual laws in history, waived them for the 1936 Olympics in Berlin. 
In on online essay titled 'The Facade of Hospitality,' the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum reports that 'in preparation for the arrival of Olympic spectators, Nazi officials ordered that foreign visitors should not be subjected to the criminal strictures of the Nazi anti-homosexual laws.' 
Hitler has also promised the International Olympic Committee in 1935 that his government would take down anti-semitic signs and banners in Berlin during the summer games, and in Garmisch-Partenkirchen during the winter games, The New York Times reported then.

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## Throbert McGee

> For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors. 
> Behold, the horror of these painted nails!   
> As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about!  Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag!  In fact - worse than that!  It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

 When I read the phrase "rainbow nails", I was thinking of something more like this, with little tiny rainbow stripes on EACH nail: 
The "official" gay flag has exactly SIX colors: красный, оранжевый, жёлтый, зелёный, синий, фиолетовый. (Ironically, in the context of this thread, the colors розовый and голубой DO NOT APPEAR on the flag!) There are also "non-gay" rainbow flags with more than six colors (the "peace rainbow" flag sometimes has 7 or 8 stripes). 
If the athlete hadn't posted her picture with the tag #pride, I would never have guessed that this was some sort of gay propaganda, since her nails appear to have only three colors, and not a "whole rainbow". So, evidently, more than two colors + the word "pride" = insult to Russian feelings.

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## 14Russian

> Agree 100% here, Eric. I've read what this Russian athlete said here Isinbayeva says Green Tregaro's gesture was disrespectful to Russia | Sport | theguardian.com and I do consider it disrespect because she is speaking 'for the nation' as if she is convinced that 'the nation' should think the way she does, and that 'the nation' should have a single opinion which coincides with hers. Speaking for the nation in such a way makes one look stupid. 
> As for the rainbow looking nails on the Swede's hands, does it look like 'promotion of something' ?- the word promotion is used by The Guardian to translate the Russian word пропаганда.

 Yes, it's sooooo horrible of her to say this?:
"When we go to different countries, we try to follow their rules. We are not trying to set our rules over there. We are just trying to be respectful." 
She is overreacting about the fingernails, though.   Let them all colour them pink, rainbow colours, whatever, who cares.

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## Throbert McGee

> In on online essay titled 'The Facade of Hospitality,' the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum reports that 'in preparation for the arrival of Olympic spectators, Nazi officials ordered that foreign visitors should not be subjected to the criminal strictures of the Nazi anti-homosexual laws.'

 Hmm... it's always been my understanding that the anti-homosexual laws of the Nazi regime were seldom applied to non-Germans. After all, persecuting Jewish and Romany gays for their sexuality would have been rather _redundant_, since the Master Plan was to kill ALL of them! And when it came to non-Nordic/Aryan groups who weren't scheduled for extermination, but only for occupation -- like the French, for example -- more gay Frenchmen = fewer French babies = fewer French resistance fighters in 20 years. Of course, there were gays who happened to be among the millions of Jews and Roms and Poles and Communists, but for the most part, they weren't arrested specifically for being homosexual. (I've seen estimates of approximately 50,000 Germans and Austrians who were thrown into Nazi concentration camps BECAUSE they were gay.) 
And, incidentally, while I think that Hanna has been dancing around and understating the damage that this new Russian law does to freedom of speech and the press,* I also think that it's a gigantic exaggeration to bring up the Nazis in this thread.* At this point, I would say the law is "worrisome", but it's far from being a human-rights disaster YET. And, while the law attacks freedom of speech, the "Insult to Religious Feelings" law ALSO attacks freedom of speech*, but it hasn't drawn a call for international boycotts.  
P.S. Hanna -- "You're allowed to publicly say anything you want about homosexuality as long as it's not too positive or supportive" is not far removed, in my opinion, from the Saudi policy that "You can publicly worship any God you want, as long as it's not the Christian God, or the Jewish God, or the Hindu pantheon..."  
P.P.S. I would add that the Russian law against religious insults -- bad as it may be -- is "content neutral" insofar as Christians are prohibited from insulting Islam, AND Muslims are prohibited from insulting Christianity -- so, in theory, everyone wears the same gag. But the "Homosexual Propaganda" law does not even make a pretense of banning propaganda AGAINST homosexuality -- only one side in this debate gets the duct tape:

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## Deborski

Relax Throbert!  I am not comparing Russia to Nazi Germany... _yet_... although I must say that the other day I was pounced on by a group of angry Russian homophobes and one of them said it is a *комплимент* to be called a Nazi.  I reminded him that 11 million Red Army Soldiers died fighting Hitler.  There is definitely a strong neo-Nazi presence in Russia right now, and I do not think it's going "too far" to express concerns that the persecution of gays may not be an end unto itself.  It begins with gays, and who is next?  Jews?  Atheists?  I think we are beholden to make historic parallels where we see them.  The rise of nationalism and religious laws in Russia is grave cause for concern.  Same goes for the religious conservatives trying to take over America as well!

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## Throbert McGee

> Ужасно коробит, когда в разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс, как вроде бы это самое главное и отличительное в их жизни.

 Thank you for making this point, Lampada! However, in my post, I wanted to emphasize that people who are attracted to the same sex can make a choice to be "celibate" (is безврачный the correct term, here?) and *still be homosexual* -- just as people can be celibate and heterosexual. And there are millions of teenagers who are VIRGINS and have never had sexual contact with a person of the same sex nor of the opposite sex -- yet they're still homosexual -- just as there are heterosexual virgins.

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## Marcus

Jews are in power in Russia, as well as in the whole world.

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## Deborski

> Jews are in power in Russia, as well as in the whole world.

 Yes, clearly Obama is a Jew.   ::

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## Eric C.

> Yes, it's sooooo horrible of her to say this?:
> "When we go to different countries, we try to follow their rules. We are not trying to set our rules over there. We are just trying to be respectful." 
> She is overreacting about the fingernails, though.   Let them all colour them pink, rainbow colours, whatever, who cares.

 Do you even realize that one of the main goals of any country is to assure no individual's basic rights (such as the right to be who they are, the right for self-expression, the freedom of speech etc.) are ever violated? What imaginary "rules" can one be talking about like that? Can you imagine one walking over to you on the street and saying, "according to my views, you must not wear these clothes", or, as you're walking out of a night club with a girl, someone getting into your way and saying, "my beliefs forbid you to get laid with this girl" ? How's that? Sounds a bit fascist, doesn't it?

----------


## Hanna

People here think I'm some kind of homophobe because I am against gay pride parades. I was actually engaged to a guy who didn't quite know which team he was batting for (as somebody politely put it) I loved him very dearly and definitely did not stop loving him after I found out what the situation was. I know he essentially couldn't stop himself, and that his love for me, and knowing that he hurt me just made it worse. Ultimately I took the only decision I could do and broke the engagement. But when we spoke about what triggered gay feelings, he said that it was that it was so easily accessible - internet etc - and that it was considered ok nowadays, which made it harder to resist. I can't relate to this level of sexual temptation but I believe he was completely honest.  
 The whole thing really broke my heart.  I see it as a temptation, like alcohol, sweets or drugs are some peoples vice. I realise that some people are only turned on by the same sex and some by both. I don't think what they do is healthy and I don't think it should be promoted. But I also don't think it is for me to pass judgment on. I have my own vices. In some cases I think circumstances bring it out - for example my ex went to an all boys boarding school for practically all his schooling. He believed there was a link.   I certainly don't want to condemn people for it, or criticise or judge anyone.  
I'm just saying don't celebrate it in front of me, because I don't want to know! I don't want to have to travel to work in a bus with gay flags for a week (this happened last year) and I don't want to get leaflets on towns with people in vulgar outfits promoting something that is offensive to many, and belongs in the bedroom, not on the street.  
I am upset that my country is now some kind of gay advertisement and there is a level of fanaticism about the pro-gay stance. I mean it HAD to be a Swedish person doing that rainbow nail thing, didn't it? (she may not be Swedish born, I don't know anything about her - she looks African and has an English name, but nevertheless it's her nationality). But she is celebrated as a heroine now. It also irritates me that Sweden seems hell bent to destroy any Russian goodwill at every opportunity. For the last 20 years it's just been non-stop "how can we piss off Russia for no reason..." (imho)  Nobody would do a manifestation against the wars of the USA, nobody manifested anything in China during the Olympics there, and it has a much worse record then Russia with just about everything. 
I'm finding that I am politically much more on par with the Russians on this forum then most of the rest of the members. Don't know how that came about really. Maybe I was brainwashed by Cheburashka as a kid, lol..... Or I played too much with my nested Russian doll!  *
We have yet to see ONE Russian person who lives in Russia come on here and say they believe the law is wrong.*   *If you are Russian, live in Russia and you think the law is wrong, please make a comment!*

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## Throbert McGee

> OK, This is the actual law everyone is talking about. There is no word 'gay' or 'homosexual' here)). I think there is no need to translate it?

 Thanks for this link, alexsms! 
I decided to translate Part 1 in its entirety, because I wanted to make sure I understood the legal terminology -- I had to leave a few words untranslated. And, also, the Russian sentence structure is a bit difficult to follow, so I added some line-breaks and bullet points for easier reading. The other 3 sections I translated only in summary, for anyone who was totally confused by Part 1, since so much of the language was the same as Part 1. 
 **** (1) The propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations among minors, expressed in the spreading of information directed toward the _formirovanie_ among minors: 
• of non-traditional sexual _ustanovki_ ; 
• [of the] attractiveness  ::  of non-traditional sexual relations; 
• of a distorted conception about the equal social value of traditional and non-traditional sexual relations;  
OR 
• the _navjazyvanie_  of information about non-traditional sexual relations, which causes an interest  ::  in such relationships,   in cases where these activities do not include criminally punishable activity, will result in administrative fines of _[various specified amounts]_.  (2) The activities stipulated in part 1 of this article, when committed with the utilization of mass media and/or informational-telecom networks (including the Internet)... will result in _[higher fines than described in part 1]_.  (3) When the activities in part 1 are committed by a foreigner or a person with no citizenship, the penalty may be an adminstrative fine OR 15 days in prison, AND expulsion from Russia.  (4) Foreigners who use mass-media or the Internet to commit the activities in part 1 may have to pay a monetary fine 10 times higher than in part 3 _[although the 15-day imprisonment and the expulsion from Russia are the same]_.
****
And, by the way, I've used смайлики to add my own "editorial comments" about a few statements marked in red (I consider these phrases to be unbelievably naive about the nature of sexual orientation!) 
I would assume that *формирование* should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives *установок*, *привлекательности*, and *представления* all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar). 
I wasn't sure about *(сексуальные) установки* -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.) 
Could *навязывание* be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.) 
Overall, I must say that this certainly isn't as bad as the proposed law (unsuccessful!) that they tried to pass in Oregon way back in 1992: "All levels of government, including public education systems, must assist in setting a standard for Oregon's youth which recognizes that [homosexuality is] abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse."  
Which is to say, at least the Russian law doesn't MANDATE homophobia, even though it makes it more difficult for homosexuals to speak publicly in their own defense.

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## 14Russian

> Do you even realize that one of the main goals of any country is to assure no individual's basic rights (such as the right to be who they are, the right for self-expression, the freedom of speech etc.) are ever violated? What imaginary "rules" can one be talking about like that? Can you imagine one walking over to you on the street and saying, "according to my views, you must not wear these clothes", or, as you're walking out of a night club with a girl, someone getting into your way and saying, "my beliefs forbid you to get laid with this girl" ? How's that? Sounds a bit fascist, doesn't it?

 LOL!   From her quote, that could apply in many Western countries especially with issues like immigration etc. etc.   Since, you bring it up, it sounds like there are groups who don't want to grant her the same rights (freedom of expression).     Under-fire Yelena Isinbayeva says she was misunderstood - The Globe and Mail

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## Hanna

> When I read the phrase "rainbow nails", I was thinking of something more like this, with little tiny rainbow stripes on EACH nail:

 Yeah I thought so too when I wrote my comment about it. It's kind of a cute look though, if you take the politics out of it.  
But nail salons are not common in Sweden (it's an American - Anglo thing)  and you couldn't do that yourself.. 
From the look of Emma Tregaro's nails she simply used some nail polish she had at home.
Since she was hellbent on doing it, she might as well have done it with style. There's probably an American style nail salon somewhere in Moscow that she could have gone to, to do it properly.

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## Throbert McGee

> But nail salons are not common in Sweden (it's an American - Anglo thing)

 Totally off the thread topic, but nail salons of this type in the States -- I've heard -- owe much of their popularity to (a) Vietnamese boat-people, and (b) actress Tippi Hedren, best known for Hitchcock's _The Birds_! 
The story goes that Ms. Hedren, at a party in the 1970s, met a couple of Vietnamese-American entrepreneurs (a former South Vietnamese general and his wife!) who owned some hair salons in Los Angeles. At the time, their salons only did very simple manicures. Hedren told them that some Hollywood actresses paid hundreds of dollars for ultra-fancy nails with stripes and rhinestones glued all over them, and that Vietnamese girls who only knew 10 words of English could be taught how to give these "Hollywood style" manicures to middle-class American housewives, bringing in a much bigger profit for the salon. 
Tippi's suggestion was a brilliant success, and even now more than half the nail salons in the U.S. are Vietnamese-owned.

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## Deborski

> Totally off the thread topic, but nail salons of this type in the States -- I've heard -- owe much of their popularity to (a) Vietnamese boat-people, and (b) actress Tippi Hedren, best known for Hitchcock's _The Birds_! 
> The story goes that Ms. Hedren, at a party in the 1970s, met a couple of Vietnamese-American entrepreneurs (a former South Vietnamese general and his wife!) who owned some hair salons in Los Angeles. At the time, their salons only did very simple manicures. Hedren told them that some Hollywood actresses paid hundreds of dollars for ultra-fancy nails with stripes and rhinestones glued all over them, and that Vietnamese girls who only knew 10 words of English could be taught how to give these "Hollywood style" manicures to middle-class American housewives, bringing in a much bigger profit for the salon. 
> Tippi's suggestion was a brilliant success, and even now more than half the nail salons in the U.S. are Vietnamese-owned.

 All of the local nail salons are owned by Vietnamese immigrants, at least here in Spokane.  I used to get my nails done when I was working in TV, but these days I don't bother with it often, and when I do, I apply my own acrylic because it's much less expensive than shelling out up to $50 for a professional manicure.

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## Deborski

> *
> We have yet to see ONE Russian person who lives in Russia come on here and say they believe the law is wrong.*   *If you are Russian, live in Russia and you think the law is wrong, please make a comment!*

 Would publicly stating that the law is wrong be an act of "propaganda"?  If so, I would expect it is asking too much of people to come out and say they oppose it.  However, some of my friends in Russia have told me privately that they think the laws go too far.

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## Deborski

> The whole thing really broke my heart.  I see it as a temptation, like alcohol, sweets or drugs are some peoples vice. I realise that some people are only turned on by the same sex and some by both. I don't think what they do is healthy and I don't think it should be promoted. But I also don't think it is for me to pass judgment on. I have my own vices. In some cases I think circumstances bring it out - for example my ex went to an all boys boarding school for practically all his schooling. He believed there was a link.   I certainly don't want to condemn people for it, or criticise or judge anyone.

 I empathize with you that your heart was broken.  I am really sorry that you had to go through that.  But I disagree with your analogy that being gay is like a "temptation" or an "addiction" for chocolates or alcohol.  People are born gay. It isn't something they can shake off.  They are either gay, or they are not gay.  And in my experience, forcing gay people into the closet, forcing them to lie about who they are in the first place, is what creates situations like the one you are describing!  Why did this man try to pretend he was straight in the first place?  If he lived in a society where he could freely be gay, he would have never dated you and he would never have broken your heart! 
And I do not mean this as an attack on you, but when you say that being gay is a "vice" like addiction or a bad habit, you _are_ judging!  Personally, I do not care if people are gay or not.  It makes no difference to me whatsoever.  I am glad to know they are gay up front though, because then there are no guessing games and no one is lied to or hurt.  To me, being gay is like being black or being white.  It is what it is.  A black person can't change the color of his skin, even in a society where being black means that he is discriminated against.  And gay people can't change the fact that they are gay.  Sure, they can be celibate, as Throbert suggested, but why should they have to?  Why can't they be allowed to love and marry and enjoy all the same rights as heterosexual people have?   
I do not support outlandish expressions of a pornographic nature, whether they are gay or straight.  I could fully understand if Russia made laws against pornography in public, or showing pornography to kids. If the gay pride parades contained too much pornography, it would have been easy enough to just outlaw the porn.  But why also outlaw rainbow flags?  It makes no sense to me. 
I'm not telling Russians how to run their country.  I very much doubt that these laws will change.  But at the same time, I am afraid - as a foreigner - to travel to Russia right now.  I don't want to be accused of spreading "propaganda" if I happen to mention that my husband's uncle is gay, or if I wear rainbow earrings or something.  So sure, Russia can keep its laws as is Russia's right as a sovereign country, but to expect that there will be no international reaction to that is naive.

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## Marcus

> Yes, clearly Obama is a Jew.

 The real power is in the hands of those who control the American financial system.

----------


## Hanna

By the way: The people in Finland are not like the rest of Europe on this.  *They are more on the Russian side of this debate.* 
They think everyone in Sweden (brother nation...) has gone totally insane, and become obsessed with this matter. (I agree with them)    The Finns are 100% "be a real man" and almost take it too far at times, with neanderthal behaviour, spitting snuff boozing.  The leading "gay personality" in Sweden, is actually Finnish. You can't turn on the TV without seeing his face within five minutes, and his lover who is also a TV personality.   

> The real power is in the hands of those who control the American financial system.

 Agree, but no point mixing up religion with it. It's hardly religious motives driving the people in question.

----------


## Throbert McGee

One other thought I have for today. Back in January (when the law got its first reading in the Duma), I mentioned the recent death of an American woman named Jeanne Manford, the founder of America's first-ever group for heterosexuals who support gay rights, now known as PFLAG. Mrs. Manford began her efforts in 1972, three years after New York's "Stonewall Riots" in June 1969. Around 1973, the word "gay" in the sense of "homosexual" was used for the first time ever on a U.S. television network (the word had been "underground slang" since approximately the WW2 era). In 1977, on the sitcom _All in the Family_, Edith Bunker attends a cousin's funeral and learns that "Cousin Liz" had been in a relationship with another woman for 20 years or so. In 1980, an 18-year-old public high school boy made national newspaper headlines by suing (and winning) over the right to bring his boyfriend to the school prom. Throughout the 1980s, the phenomenon of AIDS and the need to combat its spread made it increasingly impossible to not discuss homosexuality in mainstream media. By the 1990s, the topic of gay teenagers "coming out" in high school was rather old news -- rarely worth a headline anymore -- having been discussed a million times on talk shows like Donahue and Oprah.  
I might add that in the UK, they struck down anti-sodomy laws in 1967 -- 6 years after the banned-in-America film _Victim_, whose protagonist was a British gay man targeted by a blackmailer. And in the late 1960s, the "flamingly queer" characters of Julian and Sandy attained massive cult popularity on UK radio (ten years before "Mr. Humphries" on BBC TV). 
In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

----------


## Deborski

> One other thought I have for today. Back in January (when the law got its first reading in the Duma), I mentioned the recent death of an American woman named Jeanne Manford, the founder of America's first-ever group for heterosexuals who support gay rights, now known as PFLAG. Mrs. Manford began her efforts in 1972, three years after New York's "Stonewall Riots" in June 1969. Around 1973, the word "gay" in the sense of "homosexual" was used for the first time ever on a U.S. television network (the word had been "underground slang" since approximately the WW2 era). In 1977, on the sitcom _All in the Family_, Edith Bunker attends a cousin's funeral and learns that "Cousin Liz" had been in a relationship with another woman for 20 years or so. In 1980, an 18-year-old public high school boy made national newspaper headlines by suing (and winning) over the right to bring his boyfriend to the school prom. Throughout the 1980s, the phenomenon of AIDS and the need to combat its spread made it increasingly impossible to not discuss homosexuality in mainstream media. By the 1990s, the topic of gay teenagers "coming out" in high school was rather old news -- rarely worth a headline anymore -- having been discussed a million times on talk shows like Donahue and Oprah.  
> I might add that in the UK, they struck down anti-sodomy laws in 1967 -- 6 years after the banned-in-America film _Victim_, whose protagonist was a British gay man targeted by a blackmailer. And in the late 1960s, the "flamingly queer" characters of Julian and Sandy attained massive cult popularity on UK radio (ten years before "Mr. Humphries" on BBC TV). 
> In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

 Part of the reason gays seem like they are so prominent in media right now is because they are _still_ in the process of gaining equality, even in western societies.  the United States has yet to make same-sex marriage legal at the federal level, although it is now legal in a few states (including my own) and several other western countries have legalized it, in Europe as well as South America. But gays were also silenced for decades, and so openly gay people on TV is still a relatively new phenomenon in the west.  Once true equality is achieved, there will be less need for all the protests and hoopla.  In fact, I am already hearing annoyance expressed by a growing number of people in the gay community itself, that gay people on TV are too flamboyant and over-the-top, and do not properly represent the LGTB community.

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## Deborski

I'd like to add that so far no openly gay people have joined in on this thread either, but so what?  Why would they want to come here and say "yes I'm gay" when there are so many people who would clearly judge them and think of them as "filthy" or less than human?  It's been hard enough for me to openly engage in this discussion, and I'm not even gay!  But in other threads, I have been attacked and insulted for saying the same things I have said here.  In fact, off of MasterRussian I have been called some of the most disgusting slurs you can imagine, in both English and Russian. It's as if I am "filth by association" or something.  I do not know what goes through people's minds.  I have gay friends - but that doesn't mean I have sex with them anymore than I have sex with any of my heterosexual friends.  They are just friends, and I support their right to be who they are and what they are, just as much as I stand up for my Russian friends when I hear Americans engage in Russophobia! 
Up to a point, I can take it.  I'm a tough girl after being a TV reporter for all those years... but dealing with all the anger and hate and judgement gets to even me after a while, and so I can't imagine how it would feel if I were gay.  If I were gay, I doubt I would mention it here at all.

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## Hanna

> I empathize with you that your heart was broken.   I am really sorry that you had to go through that.  But I disagree with  your analogy that being gay is like a "temptation" or an "addiction"  for chocolates or alcohol.  People are born gay. It isn't something they  can shake off.  They are either gay, or they are not gay.  And in my  experience, forcing gay people into the closet, forcing them to lie  about who they are in the first place, is what creates situations like  the one you are describing!  Why did this man try to pretend he was  straight in the first place?  If he lived in a society where he could  freely be gay, he would have never dated you and he would never have  broken your heart! 
> And I do not mean this as an attack on you, but when you say that being gay is a "vice" like addiction or a bad habit, you _are_ judging!   Personally, I do not care if people are gay or not.  It makes no  difference to me whatsoever.  I am glad to know they are gay up front  though, because then there are no guessing games and no one is lied to  or hurt.  To me, being gay is like being black or being white.  It is  what it is.  A black person can't change the color of his skin, even in a  society where being black means that he is discriminated against.  And  gay people can't change the fact that they are gay.  Sure, they can be  celibate, as Throbert suggested, but why should they have to?  Why can't  they be allowed to love and marry and enjoy all the same rights as  heterosexual people have?   
> I do not support outlandish expressions of a pornographic nature,  whether they are gay or straight.  I could fully understand if Russia  made laws against pornography in public, or showing pornography to kids.  If the gay pride parades contained too much pornography, it would have  been easy enough to just outlaw the porn.  But why also outlaw rainbow  flags?  It makes no sense to me. 
> I'm not telling Russians how to run their country.  I very much doubt  that these laws will change.  But at the same time, I am afraid - as a  foreigner - to travel to Russia right now.  I don't want to be accused  of spreading "propaganda" if I happen to mention that my husband's uncle  is gay, or if I wear rainbow earrings or something.  So sure, Russia  can keep its laws as is Russia's right as a sovereign country, but to  expect that there will be no international reaction to that is  naive.

 He was Catholic, English and as posh as they come.  It's a fatal mix for messed up sexuality. If it's not one thing it's  another, as many poor women in this country have discovered... Public  schools (meaning traditional English boarding schools) have a lot to  answer for. In retrospect I can see that his sexuality was messed up and  there is more to this story than my brief summary. I know why he acted  the way he did. He loved me and he wanted a wife - that bit was genuine.  We were a perfect couple in all other ways, complemented each other, had fun and a connection I never felt with anyone else. He was not fully gay, obviously... He  didn't think I needed to know and didn't expect it to be an issue. Arrogant, but that's how it goes sometimes.   Unfortunately he broke the computer and I ended up fixing it. You can  work the rest out - did not set out to spy on him. Had that not happened  I would be married to him today and might be none the wiser, as I am not the suspicious type... To his credit he was completely honest  and up front when I confronted him, and full of regrets/ Although I was prepared to give him  a second chance, there was an upper limit and the thoughts of this were  extremely offputting.  
On the flag thing: I have no problem  whatever if a pub discreetly signals that it's gay by a small rainbow  flag - as a pub near my house. There is no need for anyone else to go in there.  
But  I object that I had to travel to work in a gay-flagged bus last year!   That's taking it too far. I happen to be Christian and although I think  Christ would have had compassion with gays I don't want to support  homosexuality either. Sitting in a gay flagged bus is forcing me to take  part of a manifestation that I don't support.  
I also object  that this issue has totally hi-jacked the political parties on the left:  Socialists, Communists (particularly) and Greens are obsessing over  this issue at the expense of really important issues, like social  welfare disappearing, public companies being sold out and much more. It  only concerns a small minority, while selling out state housing affects  half the population. While these parties are trying to prove their  pro-gay credentials the country is being taken over by big business. The  1st May parade, from what I saw in Sweden last year was half Pride  parade and this darn debate took up half the room of the traditional and  extremely urgent issues.
It seems to me like this issue is a Trojan horse and deliberately blown out of all proportions.  *
BTW  - have you noticed that all our Russian friends have dropped out of this discussion?  I think there is a big cultural gap here.*    

> Up to a point, I can take it.  I'm a tough girl after being a TV  reporter for all those years... but dealing with all the anger and hate  and judgement gets to even me after a while, and so I can't imagine how  it would feel if I were gay.  If I were gay, I doubt I would mention it  here at all.

 Well, you know I like you and Lampada a lot. None of us have extreme views on this. We just happen to be on different sides of the absolute centre, so to speak.... We are arguing nicely, so there is no issue.  
I've had too much of gay stuff coming my way lately and I thought Russia's law was refreshing. But the minute somebody starting giving gay people grief for a situation they can't control, I'd be completely against it. Particularly if using the law to do it. Saudi, Iran etc. Not my business, but I feel sorry for gay people there. The Nazis punished people for simply being gay.  
I'm just saying, don't force this on regular people either, in the form of the kind of exaggerated agenda I was describing that I experienced in Sweden. I think Russians became aware that this was going on in some European countries and thought "no thanks".  Edinaya Rossia picked up on it as an easy win with most of the population.   

> Would publicly stating that the law is wrong be  an act of "propaganda"?  If so, I would expect it is asking too much of  people to come out and say they oppose it.  However, some of my friends  in Russia have told me privately that they think the laws go too  far.

 The law had nothing to do with what you say online - it's obvious they just want to curb the excesses of the gay movement in Europe and the USA. Do you think that the Russians believe that someone will come knocking on the door because they wrote on MasterRussian that the law is bad? As far as I can see Russians are bitching away with insane conspiracy theories and insults on politicians on blogs etc. Not to mention radical islamic, left wing and nazi sites. This seems to be going on uncurbed. Much worse stuff than complaining about a silly law. Besides, they don't have NSA and certainly not the manpower even if somebody cared.

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## Eric C.

> LOL!   From her quote, that could apply in many Western countries especially with issues like immigration etc. etc.   Since, you bring it up, it sounds like there are groups who don't want to grant her the same rights (freedom of expression).     Under-fire Yelena Isinbayeva says she was misunderstood - The Globe and Mail

 Of course, she's free to say what she thinks; though it does not mean it can't be somewhat really shocking to lots of people; honestly, I was really surprised by the "normal people" statement of hers too, because I would never think a person with her background could ever make statements of that kind.

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## Deborski

> *Hanna* The law had nothing to do with what you say online - it's obvious they just want to curb the excesses of the gay movement in Europe and the USA. Do you think that the Russians believe that someone will come knocking on the door because they wrote on MasterRussian that the law is bad? As far as I can see Russians are bitching away with insane conspiracy theories and insults on politicians on blogs etc. Not to mention radical islamic, left wing and nazi sites. This seems to be going on uncurbed. Much worse stuff than complaining about a silly law. Besides, they don't have NSA and certainly not the manpower even if somebody cared.

 It isn't that I think the government would come knocking at anyone's door over things they said online.  It's other kinds of social reprisals I am talking about.  I've already experienced a few attacks right here at MR for saying the same things I am saying on this thread.  A few other people appear to be "shunning" me because of my opinions here, apparently forgetting that I do not talk about gays every hour at the day.  I've chatted with some of the people on this site for almost two years now, and I hope that by now they know me well enough that they understand, that just because I am speaking my mind here on this thread, does not mean I am going to talk about gay rights in every other conversation we have.  I get that many Russians will not agree with me.  It's a forgone conclusion, really. 
Fortunately I don't live in Russia, so I don't have to worry about my employer seeing what I say on Facebook, for example, and firing me the next day.  I worry that I would get in trouble if I went to live in Russia again, and I am not even gay, I just have gay friends who I openly support.  I can only imagine what it would be like to be gay living there!  I would have to hide everything about myself and pretend to be straight, or I would be ostracized by the community, and possibly worse.  As I've said before, it isn't just the law - with all of its ambiguous wording - which concerns me, it's the growing numbers of neo-Nazis and skinheads and religious fanatics who beat gay people up, attack them, humiliate them, torture them, etc.  And maybe the law charges some of them, but it certainly doesn't charge all of them.  There is definitely a prevalent attitude that gay people are just "getting what they deserve."  I have even heard that attitude expressed right here at MR.   
I think the law is just the tip of the iceberg really.  As for myself, maybe it's because I am no longer involved with christian religion (I once was, in fact my uncle was a famous Televangelist in the US back in the 1970's - and that is a whole other long story), but I don't really see gay people "taking over."  Sure there are a few movies with gay actors, there are some TV shows about gay people, there are gay pride parades on so on, but it doesn't really bother me.  I can take it, or leave it.  I like "Project Runway" for example, because it's a show about fashion and I love designing my own clothing.  The fashion industry has a lot of gay people in it though, and so "Project Runway" can come across as very "gay."  It doesn't really bother me.  On the other hand, I am not watching gay porn on TV because it just doesn't interest me!  I watched "Brokeback Mountain" and thought it was a good movie, but I don't especially need to watch it again. 
I certainly see many more "manifestations" of religion, living here in the US.  Within a five mile radius of my home there are at least ten churches!  Ten!  And yet the right wing christian community claims all the time that it is being "persecuted" by the "liberals" and their "gay agenda."  I think what they mean by being persecuted, is that they do not have the authority to shut people up.  It isn't as though their churches are all being shut down, and christians are being shot on site.  It's the other way around really.  Admit you are gay, or atheist, or just a non-believer, and you can expect a great deal of persecution here in the states... people will ostracize you, judge you, stab you in the back.  My last workplace was 90% christian.  When people found out I was not a christian, they made my life difficult.    

> *Hanna: * Well, you know I like you and Lampada a lot. None of us have extreme views on this. We just happen to be on different sides of the absolute centre, so to speak.... We are arguing nicely, so there is no issue.

 And I like you as well!  We do not have to agree on this one subject.  I am sure there are many other subjects which we would agree on.  This is just one issue.  It's a big issue, but it too, will pass.

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## maxmixiv

> Relax Throbert!  I am not comparing Russia to Nazi Germany... _yet_... although I must say that the other day I was pounced on by a group of angry Russian homophobes and one of them said it is a *комплимент* to be called a Nazi.  I reminded him that 11 million Red Army Soldiers died fighting Hitler.  There is definitely a strong neo-Nazi presence in Russia right now, and I do not think it's going "too far" to express concerns that the persecution of gays may not be an end unto itself.  It begins with gays, and who is next?  Jews?  Atheists?  I think we are beholden to make historic parallels where we see them.  The rise of nationalism and religious laws in Russia is grave cause for concern.  Same goes for the religious conservatives trying to take over America as well!

 I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only _пуля в лоб_ can cure them.

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## maxmixiv

> Thank you for making this point, Lampada! However, in my post, I wanted to emphasize that people who are attracted to the same sex can make a choice to be "celibate" (is безврачный the correct term, here?) and *still be homosexual* -- just as people can be celibate and heterosexual. And there are millions of teenagers who are VIRGINS and have never had sexual contact with a person of the same sex nor of the opposite sex -- yet they're still homosexual -- just as there are heterosexual virgins.

  :: 
Без*б*рачие (you must use a noun somehow)
Безврачный - is something about Самолечение — Википедия   

> I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar). 
> I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.) 
> Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

 For "установка" , matching words are possibly "aim, guideline". 
"формирование" could be "forming", "shaping", "organizing"
"навязывание" - forcing seems to be appropriate word. Do you remember how Баттерс навязывался в друзья к Стэну, Кайлу и Эрику (after Kenny died for real) ?  
Not sure about any of words because of my poor, poor English  ::    

> In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

 Yes! "Мы перебесимся и станем как вы" (из фильма "Курьер")

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## maxmixiv

> Part of the reason gays seem like they are so prominent in media right now is because they are still in the process of gaining equality, even in western societies.

 Of course they are. Where non-mixed pair competitions for figure skaters? Where men's competitions in Rhythmic gymnastics? 
Why Western World keeps silence?  Already in process of inventing proper costumes I guess?  ::

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## xdns

As far as I remember, deputy Milonov from St Petersburg was among early proponents of anti-"gay propaganda" laws in Russia.
Many people ridiculed him on the Internet:      
В этом городе-герое Ленинграде, Ленинграде
Из окна летят помои и бомжи в парадке гадят
А еще мы стадиона года ждем уже четыре
Говорят, что виноваты голубые 
Из-за них недоедаем, из-за них болеют дети,
Мало Пушкина читаем - так написано в газете
Но защитник благородный есть на страже у морали
Победит кого угодно Виталий 
Припев:
Милонов борется с геями - борется с гея...
Милонов борется с геями - борется!
Милонов борется с геями - борется с гея...
Милонов борется с геями - борется! 
Было очень неспокойно на концерте у Мадонны
Говорят, что содомиты прорвались через кордоны
И плясали оголенно, не скрывая гениталий
Ах, хорошо, что в Ленинграде есть Виталий 
Очень трудно нам, ребята, тяжело, друзья, живется
Даже в школьном амфитеатре про мужицкий секс поется
Даже радуга на небе намекает на плохое
А за ней еще и небо голубое! 
Припев 
Ты живи себе не парься, с мужиком не обнимайся
Моисеева не слушай - позабудь про revolution
Ты живи себе не парься, с мужиком не обнимайся
Моисеева не слушай - позабудь про revolution 
Припев

----------


## xdns

Can't help bringing this up: Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
I think this sarcastic piece perfectly summarises feelings of ordinary heterosexual person about gay parades  ::

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## Deborski

> I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only _пуля в лоб_ can cure them.

 Hahahaha, funny.  But to be clear I am certainly not saying anyone in this thread is a neo-Nazi ))))))

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## Deborski

> As far as I remember, deputy Milonov from St Petersburg was among early proponents of anti-"gay propaganda" laws in Russia.
> Many people ridiculed him on the Internet:      
> В этом городе-герое Ленинграде, Ленинграде
> Из окна летят помои и бомжи в парадке гадят
> А еще мы стадиона года ждем уже четыре
> Говорят, что виноваты голубые 
> Из-за них недоедаем, из-за них болеют дети,
> Мало Пушкина читаем - так написано в газете
> Но защитник благородный есть на страже у морали
> ...

 
That's actually kinda funny... it sounds like it's making fun of the "gay propaganda laws" and making a statement that there are BIGGER ISSUES in Russia which people are being distracted from... to which I would agree.  We have the same problem with different kinds of distractions in America too, which prevent us from discussing more important things.  But certain populist issues will get people's patriotic fervor going and they will forget other problems real fast.

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## Deborski

> Can't help bringing this up: Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
> I think this sarcastic piece perfectly summarises feelings of ordinary heterosexual person about gay parades

 Actually, that article was hilarious!   

> The parade, organized by the Los Angeles Gay And Lesbian And Bisexual And Transvestite And Transgender Alliance (LAGALABATATA), was intended to "promote acceptance, tolerance, and equality for the city's gay community." Just the opposite, however, was accomplished, as the event confirmed the worst fears of thousands of non-gay spectators, cementing in their minds a debauched and distorted image of gay life straight out of the most virulent right-wing hate literature.

 Hahaha.... oh that's so true.  That's why so many gays and lesbians in the US are tired of all this "over the top" wackiness.  I actually think it offends them more than heteros these days, which may explain why the pride parades I've been to are nothing like those described here.  I've never seen giant phallus floats or people waving dildos... ever... our pride parades were just people, walking down the street, carrying rainbow flags.  Of course, I do not live in Los Angeles!

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## xdns

Now, my opinion about recent anti-"gay propaganda" laws in my country: 
I think that our MPs, probably, have nothing more important to do.
So they have to make up these rubbish laws which criminalize so called "gay propaganda", insults of "religious feelings" etc.
They even suggested a law to ban Russian mat on the Internet (I wouldn't be surprised if they approve that law too)!
It is nothing but bigotry and cheap moralism.
Opposition speakers nicknamed current Duma as a "mad printer" because of these non-agenda laws. 
I'm not very fond of gay parades as a heterosexual (they are just not my type of parades  :: ). 
I'm sceptical about gay "marriage", because I think it steals some special "olde" feeling about marriage as a union of woman and man. I do, however, support civil unions for gays. 
I'm undecided about adoptions by gay couples. I think that traditional couples should at least have priority in this matter - because child can't choose by himself and should be given a chance to end up with a traditional family first.   
BUT these scum dressed in all those "God forbid" T-shirts who come to beat harmless campaigners should be put in jail! Our society should not tolerate violence.

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## Deborski

> Now, my opinion about recent anti-"gay propaganda" laws in my country: 
> I think that our MPs, probably, have nothing more important to do.
> So they have to make up these rubbish laws which criminalize so called "gay propaganda", insults of "religious feelings" etc.
> They even suggested a law to ban Russian mat on the Internet (I wouldn't be surprised if they approve that law too)!
> It is nothing but bigotry and cheap moralism.
> Opposition speakers nicknamed current Duma as a "mad printer" because of these non-agenda laws. 
> I'm not very fond of gay parades as a heterosexual (they are just not my type of parades ). 
> I'm sceptical about gay "marriage", because I think it steals some special "olde" feeling about marriage as a union of woman and man. I do, however, support civil unions for gays. 
> I'm undecided about adoptions by gay couples. I think that traditional couples should at least have priority in this matter - because child can't choose by himself and should be given a chance to end up with a traditional family first.   
> BUT these scum dressed in all those "God forbid" T-shirts who come to beat harmless campaigners should be put in jail! Our society should not tolerate violence.

 That about sums up my feelings too.  The laws against "offending the sensibilities of religious people" especially bother me!  But we have a large, very vocal, group of people in the US who would LOVE to have the same "cheap moralistic laws" here.  (great expression by the way.)  I was just reading yesterday how there are seven states which have laws against atheists serving the governments.  Seven states with constitutions which basically say "any man may serve in a civil capacity - provided that he believe in the Almighty God."  I wish I was kidding.

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## maxmixiv

> "any man may serve in a civil capacity - provided that he believe in the Almighty God."

 OMG! I will never visit Olympic games in America, then!

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## 14Russian

> I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only _пуля в лоб_ can cure them.

 What cures the Marxists?   Anyway, what would a lefty be doing talking to Russian 'neo-nazis?'   This thread keeps getting more comical.   
I reiterate, why is it just 'this' issue but neither Westerners nor Russians (here) are complaining about propaganda and denial of rights of others? 
Why is there no vocal protest about other places like the Middle East?   I agree, there is justification to question the law in Russia but there's a peculiar lack of interest to judge anyone else or other countries.

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## Deborski

> OMG! I will never visit Olympic games in America, then!

 Oh relax, Max, we promise not to enforce our laws on foreigners  ::

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## Deborski

> What cures the Marxists?   Anyway, what would a lefty be doing talking to Russian 'neo-nazis?'   This thread keeps getting more comical.   
> I reiterate, why is it just 'this' issue but neither Westerners nor Russians (here) are complaining about propaganda and denial of rights of others? 
> Why is there no vocal protest about other places like the Middle East?   I agree, there is justification to question the law in Russia but there's a peculiar lack of interest to judge anyone else or other countries.

 Clearly you have not seen one of my other recent posts about atrocities going on in Muslim countries.

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## Deborski

8 “Pastafarians” Detained in Moscow During Unsanctioned "Pasta Procession" | Russia | RIA Novosti 
Looks like gays are not the only ones being persecuted by the Russian Orthodox Church...  _From this article: _    

> MOSCOW, August 17 (RIA Novosti) – A “pasta procession” by the Russian followers of the not-so-serious Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was dispersed in Moscow on Saturday by riot police and Orthodox activists, the prankster movement said. 
> The Moscow police press service told RIA Novosti that eight “Pastafarians” were detained for "attempting to hold an unsanctioned rally."

 Does anyone else agree that this is a ridiculous exercise of police power?  And why do "Orthodox activists" feel like they must suppress every group that is not in lockstep with them?  Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state? 
Is simply having FUN "нелзя"?

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## Eric C.

> 8 “Pastafarians” Detained in Moscow During Unsanctioned "Pasta Procession" | Russia | RIA Novosti 
> Looks like gays are not the only ones being persecuted by the Russian Orthodox Church...  _From this article: _    
> Does anyone else agree that this is a ridiculous exercise of police power?  And why do "Orthodox activists" feel like they must suppress every group that is not in lockstep with them?  Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state? 
> Is simply having FUN "нелзя"?

 The problem there is, the state has WAY TOO MUCH control over the people. Once it loses the excessive control, what Orthodox activists think will no longer matter.

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## Doomer

> Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state?

 Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation  

> And why do "Orthodox activists" feel like they must suppress every group that is not in lockstep with them?
> ...
> Is simply having FUN "нелзя"?

 There is a hidden issue here
Russian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster chose abbreviation РПЦ - Русская Пастафарианская Церковь, the same abbreviation which describes Russian Orthodox Church - Русская Православная Церковь 
I do believe that abbreviation has been chosen specifically to mock Russian Orthodox church, alas Russian nationalists are also pro-Orthodox and they don't like being mocked

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## maxmixiv

> Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state?

 Many people. However, "попы умеют дружить"
The talent to choose right friends is crucial if you are going to have limitless power.

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## Deborski

> Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation 
> There is a hidden issue here
> Russian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster chose abbreviation РПЦ - Русская Пастафарианская Церковь, the same abbreviation which describes Russian Orthodox Church - Русская Православная Церковь 
> I do believe that abbreviation has been chosen specifically to mock Russian Orthodox church, alas Russian nationalists are also pro-Orthodox and they don't like being mocked

 But even if they _are_ mocking the ROC, so what?  As long as they are not vandalizing church property (as Pussy Riot did and was harshly sentenced for!) why should it matter what people say?  Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?

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## Doomer

> Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?

 Hm, i guess I need to write it one more time  

> Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

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## Throbert McGee

> I'd like to add that so far no openly gay people have joined in on this thread either, but so what?

  :: *sniffle* If anyone wants me, I'll be over here with the rest of the chopped liver...

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## Throbert McGee

> I'm not very fond of gay parades as a heterosexual (they are just not my type of parades ). 
> I'm sceptical about gay "marriage", because I think it steals some special "olde" feeling about marriage as a union of woman and man. I do, however, support civil unions for gays. 
> I'm undecided about adoptions by gay couples. I think that traditional couples should at least have priority in this matter - because child can't choose by himself and should be given a chance to end up with a traditional family first.

 Hmmm, I'm "queer as a three-dollar-bill" and I agree with you on all of these points. Although on the subject of gay parades, I will admit that the FIRST one I ever attended (just about 20 years ago, when I was in college) was very significant to me. And I think that a lot of other gay people would say that these parades can be valuable when you're just beginning the process of "выход из подполья". But after the novelty wears off, you start to realize: "Wow, this is kind of stupid."

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## Throbert McGee

> That's why so many gays and lesbians in the US are tired of all this "over the top" wackiness.  I actually think it offends them more than heteros these days, which may explain why the pride parades I've been to are nothing like those described here.  I've never seen giant phallus floats or people waving dildos... ever... our pride parades were just people, walking down the street, carrying rainbow flags.  Of course, I do not live in Los Angeles!

 When I lived in NYC (1996-2003), I was surprised at how low-key and even "family friendly" the Brooklyn gay parade was compared with the BIG one in Manhattan, just a few miles away. Another thing to keep in mind about the really huge gay parades in some cities is that they are, to some degree, deliberate imitations of the "Carnavale" and "Mardi Gras" traditions:

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## maxmixiv

> Oh relax, Max, we promise not to enforce our laws on foreigners

 No-no-no, I know I will be fined, expelled, arrested, and then shot by a nasty policeman.

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## maxmixiv

> Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?

 Just learned the beautiful English expression: the swing of the pendulum. Маятник качнулся, and now all people who had no respect in Socialism era, suddenly are "cool". On top of that, our President is a half of our state, and he is fond of church.

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## Basil77

> And immediately the insults begin.  Can you begin any sentence with something other than an insult, when you disagree?  And why insult me?  Simply because I have an opposing view?  I did not see you insulting or attacking the pedophile who was bragging about raping 13 year old girls...  
> This is why I do not care to discuss this subject on this forum.  I get that you are angry about some myth about gay people "taking over your country" but I am not going to be fodder for you to attack. 
> Alexander Nevzorov is a distinguished journalist and war correspondent whom I had the great honor and privilege of working with in Leningrad many years ago.  I am very encouraged to see that he is still speaking his mind and has not been shut down by the frothing-at-the-mouth religious right which wants to force everyone to believe exactly as they do.  So naturally, you felt compelled to immediately denigrate his character and insult him too.   
> It's a pity that so many people on TV these days, in Russia and in America, are just loudmouthed shills for populist views.  Nevzorov has integrity, and that is exemplified by his ability to stand firmly for the truth even when the majority disagree.

 I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

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## Deborski

> I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

 Well, I was acquainted with Nevzorov in Leningrad.  I did not work closely with him, and I did not see this series about prostitution which you are describing.  I did see the expose he did about equestrian sports, and I was impressed with that because I was very involved with equestrian sports when I was a teenager and everything he said about it is true.  People beat horses and treat them horribly, all for the sake of winning a gold medal. 
We can agree to disagree regarding gar rights.  I only ask that we treat each other respectfully.  Once the insults start flying, it causes me anxiety and I will usually leave the conversation.

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## Deborski

This is an excellent movie about Matthew Shepard, the gay man who was beaten, tortured and killed in Colorado several years ago.  His story was a major turning point for the gay rights movement in the United States.  In my younger years, I was homophobic (thanks to religious indoctrination) and as I grew older I remained ambivalent.  But this story really changed my thinking on many levels.  I realized that gay people are who they are, and beating them or persecuting will never change them.  I fear that Russia will have a few Matthew Shepards of its own before attitudes in Russia change.  But I do have faith that most Russians do not approve of violence or cruelty, and that eventually Russia's attitude towards gay people will change.  It may be many years before this happens, but I believe that some day it will. 
I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people.  We have a long way to go even here, where gay people are gaining rights, because gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes even in our "land of the free."  And I am always the first to say when I think America does wrong - such as in the case of our global military aggression.  But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things.  One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

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## Юрка

> I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go...

 1) Европа (и Америка, как часть Европы) хочет, чтобы мы были похожи на них. Но у Европы был свой долгий путь, а у нас свой, совсем другой. 
В Европе было рабство (белые владели чёрными), а у нас нет. 
В Европе долгое время в средние века убивали геев на законном основании, а у нас нет. 
Теперь Европа комплексует по поводу своих грехов, пытается их компенсировать в своей голове запретом слова "чёрный", признанием "браков" и т.д. Но у нас не было этих грехов и поэтому нет этих комплексов. Поэтому нечего компенсировать в своей психике. 
2) Если пигмеев отдать во власть мусульман, то они заставят пигмейских женщин кутаться в балахоны, а мужчин носить штаны. И будут думать при этом, что спасают пигмеев от грехов. На самом деле пигмеи ещё не знают тех грехов, которые уже овладели более "развитыми" мусульманами. Мусульмане кутают своих женщин, чтобы их не украли другие мужчины, чтобы показать свою власть над женщиной и т.д. Пегмеи ещё не могут прокормить несколько женщин, поэтому у них нет многожёнства. У них нет права собственности на женщину и нет похищения людей. У них нет порнографии, так как нет одежды. И так далее. То есть мусульмане будут заниматься бессмысленными вещами, предполагая что их мораль универсальна. Но мораль находится в равновесии с грехом. Каждый военный знает, что средства обороны развиваются вместе со средствами нападения. История развития человечества - это история развития греха и морали. Капитализм, например, научился использовать жажду наживы для развития общества. А у пигмеев ещё рабовладения наверное не было. 
Короче, когда Запад думает, что у него самая сильная мораль, он невольно признаётся, что у него самый развитый институт греха. Я же утверждаю, что разные народы обладают своим опытом в области греха. Поэтому каждый народ вырабатывает свою мораль.

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## maxmixiv

> But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things.

 Do you mean they have some special rights above "ordinary" men?
What these rights are worth if nevertheless  

> gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes

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## Deborski

> Европа (и Америка, как часть Европы) просто хочет, чтобы мы были похожи на них. Но у Европы был свой долгий путь, а у нас свой, совсем другой. 
> В Европе было рабство (белые владели чёрными), а у нас нет. 
> В Европе долгое время в средние века убивали геев на законном основании, а у нас нет. 
> Теперь Европа комплексует по поводу своих грехов, пытается их компенсировать в своей голове запретом слова "чёрный", признанием "браков" и т.д. Но у нас не было этих грехов и поэтому нет этих комплексов. Поэтому нечего компенсировать в своей психике.

 You misunderstand.  We don't want you to be just like us.  It isn't about that at all. 
Gay people are not only living in Europe and in the US.  There are plenty of gay people living in Russia, too.  Shutting them up, killing them, making laws against everything they are will not cause gay people to stop being born. 
It's a pity you will not watch the Matthew Shepard story, or understand the movie.  It's a story of a family, and how they had to face their own homophobia and ignorance when their son was brutally murdered. 
To say that because Europe had slaves, but Russia didn't, is probably true (notwithstanding the Viking Russians who did, in fact, have slaves).  But to say that because Europe and the US did some things wrong, does not mean that therefore gay rights is also wrong.  You are conflating the issues. 
Yes.  Russia does have its own path.  And there will undoubtedly be many Russian boys will will die because they are gay, and because hatred of them is tolerated.  But those boys will also have parents, like Matthew Shepard had, who will grieve the deaths of their children.  And those parents will come to see that it was not their children who were wrong, but the hatred that is wrong.  And some day, perhaps many years from now, even Russia will change.

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## Deborski

> Do you mean they have some special rights above "ordinary" men?
> What these rights are worth if nevertheless

 No.  They do not have special rights above "ordinary men."  There are simply laws in place which make it illegal to beat, kill, torture, and harass people because they are  gay (or black, or Jewish, or any other class of people who have a history of being persecuted in our country).  These laws are necessary now, because gay people are hated more than "ordinary" (ie, heterosexual) men.   
To be even clearer, no rights are being taken away from heterosexual people, just because gays are protected by law.  All these protections mean is that you can no longer fire someone from their job because they are gay.  If they are a bad employee, you can still fire them.  But you cannot fire them just because they are gay.  Without these laws in place, discrimination is allowed and gay people have no legal recourse to fight a wrongful termination, for example.

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## Paul G.

(Deleted. L.) Colorado is not somewhere in Russia, it's in the US. Every American believes if something nasty happens in the "best country in the world", the same things occur much more frequent somewhere else, because the rest world is just a big hole in comparison with the US.   

> But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

 (Deleted. L.) Like George Carlin said: "I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?" 
Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations! 
Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

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## Юрка

> But to say that because Europe and the US did some things wrong, does not mean that therefore gay rights is also wrong. You are conflating the issues.

 Я на этих примерах пытался показать, как формируется "коллективное бессознательное" на Западе. Этот механизм одинаков и в случае чёрных рабов, и в случае геев, и в случае евреев. Сначала Запад допускает многовековую несправедливость по отношению к ним, потом вдруг становится их защитником, используя эту тему во внешней политике для давления на всех окружающих.
Наше же общество так сильно не бросает из крайности в крайность. И такой степени лицемерия мы ещё не научились. 
Вы же пытаетесь перевести разговор на уровень индивидуальной психологии. Фильм наверняка об этом: как конкретные люди борятся в себе сами с собой, уродуют свою психику и т.д. Мне эта проблема кажется не интересной, так как у нас другая церковь, другая традиция. На личном уровне для меня этой проблемы не существует.

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## alexsms

> I would assume that *формирование* should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives *установок*, *привлекательности*, and *представления* all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar). 
> I wasn't sure about *(сексуальные) установки* -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.) 
> Could *навязывание* be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

 *Формирование* means "forming of these 'non-traditional' ideas, attitudes in a child'. Yes, grammatically these 3 words connect to формирование.  *Установка* is a term used in psychology. It means 'established attitude towards something, established idea or thought. In pure sense it's not 'mores', it's related to 'norms' resulting from such attitudes. The word 'attitude' is enough to explain this word. *Навязывание* is 'forcing' or trying to present any information, any thing, trying to sell something when the other party doesn't want to listen to this information and not interested, have no time, etc. Distribution of ad flyers in the street could be an example. Навязывание implies that the doer tries to do it in an active way. _Captive audience_ is a nice way of saying it too.

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## Lampada

> (Deleted. L.) Colorado is not somewhere in Russia, it's in the US. Every American believes if something nasty happens in the "best country in the world", the same things occur much more frequent somewhere else, because the rest world is just a big hole in comparison with the US.  
> (Deleted. L.) Like George Carlin said: "I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?" 
> Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations! 
> Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

 All of the above are lies, twisting the truth, distortion. What is here? Self-deception, confusion or "Don't bother me with facts!"?  ::   
Carlin on gays: "Leave the f... people alone for Christ sake!"

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## 14Russian

> Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

 You have a point there.   That's just one example but those special interest groups on the left, often want special rights and feel they deserve advantages because they're so 'oppressed.'   The mod can censor stuff she doesn't agree with but it doesn't change the truth.

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## 14Russian

> Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

 How many in Russia are that religious?   Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian?  Any who really practice and go to church?
I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia.   The total sum is probably zero.  *(Being sarcastic there:  I am talking about those who I've talked to).

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## Paul G.

> How many in Russia are that religious?   Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian?  Any who really practice and go to church?
> I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia.   The total sum is probably zero.  *(Being sarcastic there:  I am talking about those who I've talked to).

 You are right. I guess there are just approx. 5% of Russian people who are Orthodox Christian, or even less. Also, maybe just 0.001% of them are really care about gays. 
In Russia, this "gay" context is inspired by some political forces (including European and American), which use gays for their political purposes. I mean, as pressure upon the Government (and Putin personally).

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## Throbert McGee

> You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"
>  Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

 I can't find the photo now, but a few months ago I saw a picture of a Russian gay activist carrying a sign with the following slogan:  *Я не горжусь тем, что я гей -- я горжусь тем, что не стыжусь.* 
(I'm quoting from memory; the wording may have been slightly different, but it was close to this.) 
Anyway, my point is that "Gay Pride" (or "Irish Pride", or "Black Pride", or "Jewish Pride") originated as defensive reactions against other people's prejudice:      
So, "Gay Pride" makes sense to the extent that an individual is surrounded by people who say "You ought to be ashamed!"  But I would certainly agree that, as Other People's Prejudice diminishes, the "need" for events expressing "I'm Proud to be _[fill-in-the-blank]_" becomes less obvious. So minorities may lose interest in having special parades -- or, in some cases, these parades cease being political demonstrations and become Mardi-Gras-style events. 
P.S. By the way -- it should be noted that, contrary to popular belief, "No Irish Need Apply" signs were probably quite rare in US history, and *were mainly found in neighborhoods where Irish-American Catholics lived next door to British-American Protestants*. Which is to say that Swedish-American Protestants and Italian-American Catholics had no particular prejudice against their Irish neighbors; anti-Irish hostility, where it existed, was mostly an obsession of certain US Protestants who had (recently) immigrated from the British Isles. (And the prejudice went in the other direction, too -- a lot of Irish-American Catholics hated British-American Protestants, but weren't hostile towards German-American Protestants.)

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## Doomer

> How many in Russia are that religious?   Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian?  Any who really practice and go to church?
> I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia.   The total sum is probably zero.  *(Being sarcastic there:  I am talking about those who I've talked to).

 You can't meet them because you are not in Russia
There are two main reasons why there are not that many hard-core Orthodox Christian immigrants
1. To immigrate you usually have to have high education. And it is proven fact (there were several studies) that the more educated group of people is, the less religious it will be. Educated person finds it hard to believe in something that is not logical 
2. Russian Orthodox church is also pro-national. It's somewhat substitution for patriotism in Russia, the Church is very old and it's been always following very old traditions that kept the spirit of Russia itself for many generations. That means hard-core Orthodox believers are also would be very patriotic to the country (not to the politics but to the country itself). And true patriots just won't leave Russia

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## Deborski

Bigoted Christian Extremists Get Lost At Sea For Months After Leaving US In Protest Of Homosexuality - 
Meanwhile, in America...   

> When the Gastonguay family sailed away from America in May, they believed they were leaving behind a government that supports taxes, abortion, and homosexuality. You see, they’re the kind of Christians who feel persecuted because the government won’t adhere to Biblical law that supposedly outlaws gays and bans a woman’s right to choose. They are also convinced that government controls the churches because being gay and choosing to have an abortion aren’t illegal. So they left the United States in protest and set course for the island of Kiribati, which is between Hawaii and Australia. The family took “a leap of faith” and believed God would answer their prayers to take them to a land where they can practice their extreme and hateful religious beliefs. Well, God responded and it was epic.

   ::  
...and best of all, our US government, who they hated, actually rescued and saved them.

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## Deborski

> *sniffle* If anyone wants me, I'll be over here with the rest of the chopped liver...

 
I'm sorry Throbert!  I had no idea!  It's not as if you are all decked out in rainbows and waving a giant flaming dildo in our faces ))))   
I apologize for my assumption.   ::  
It just goes to show how wrong stereotypes really are!

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## Юрка

В этом законе надо было сделать хитрее: запретить не только рекламу гомосексуальных, но и гетеросексуальных отношений. 
И тогда никто бы не сказал, что это "Law against Gays".

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## maxmixiv

> No.  They do not have special rights above "ordinary men."  There are simply laws in place which make it illegal to beat, kill, torture, and harass people because they are  gay (or black, or Jewish, or any other class of people who have a history of being persecuted in our country).  These laws are necessary now, because gay people are hated more than "ordinary" (ie, heterosexual) men.   
> To be even clearer, no rights are being taken away from heterosexual people, just because gays are protected by law.  All these protections mean is that you can no longer fire someone from their job because they are gay.  If they are a bad employee, you can still fire them.  But you cannot fire them just because they are gay.  Without these laws in place, discrimination is allowed and gay people have no legal recourse to fight a wrongful termination, for example.

 I would love more the law, which forbids to kill *anyone*, and I think you have it. Why not "enforce" it then?
In case of employer-employee relationships, I doubt that the cause of the fire can be proved. Simply lazy gays will be hard to fire. It is eternal issue: in Russia, there are special laws to prevent unfair terminations in respect to women (they tend to suddenly make kids and can miss the work for years, retaining the position), but it is revealed that "fair" termination became also almost impossible.

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## iCake

> В этом законе надо было сделать хитрее: запретить не только рекламу гомосексуальных, но и гетеросексуальных отношений. 
> И тогда никто бы не сказал, что это "Law against Gays".

 Запрет рекламы гетеросексуальных отношений практически равносилен запрету брака между мужчиной и женщиной. А если учесть, что запрет на рекламу направлен в отношении несовершеннолетних, то считай, что сделай они это, то они бы запретили ребёнку жить в семье, как никак реклама  ::

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## iCake

Well, I tried to steer clear of this thread (I know I posted here first  :: ) for as long as I saw it rapidly growing. I didn't read the whole thread but as from what I see I can say that people just forgot what this thread was all about and started to advocate/deny gay rights. At risk to become unpopular I think I have to express my thoughts about all that. 
First of all, the whole thread was not about gay rights but about why it's ridiculous to boycott Sochi Olympics because of the law. Well, I'm gonna tell you why: 
If somebody here really thinks that gay athletes will be persecuted due to this law they need to guess again. Russian high officials are bound to give the police orders to look the other way when it comes to dealing with anything regarding Olympics. Russia is not interested in letting Olympics go astray from what they see perfect Olympic games. That's the matter of the country's image nonetheless! If you look at the history of how Russia held any impoprtant even it will just become obvious. We always try to organize the most lavish, perfect and astonishing events if they're to be international. This is the Russian thing, it's a part of our culture. (Well, the thing is that we don't always undoubtly pull this off but that's another thing to discuss.  :: ) There is nothing to believe it's gonna be different this time or at any time soon.  
Second of all, did somebody here actually examine the law? All it says is that it's prohibited to popularize the notion among juveniles that being a gay is utterly great, awesome and so much better than being dully straight. In other words it's illegal to tell juveniles that they should be gay or to incline them to be gay by any means. And it undoubtly doesn't prohibit anyone from being gay, also it doesn't prohibit anyone from telling an adult that to be gay is great, doesn't prohibit gay clubs as long as they host adults only, doesn't prohibit so called "pride parades" as long as no juveniles are involved and it doesn't prohibit any gay symbolics. Still more it doesn't prohibit a whole load of other gay activities but I think it's enough for now because you've most likely got the point already. 
All what I wrote is based on what I concluded from the actual law text after I'd actully read it. But don't take my word for that, after having read the law text I also happened upon the interview of the initiator of the law, Elena Mizulina.  The interview is in Russian but this site is called Master Russian so I trust you can get at least the main point of the interview and you surely are welcome to ask me to clarify anything you dind't understand there. 
Also, one more thing, I agree that this law is far from perfect so some amendments are surely to come, But what law was perfect in its first edition? Even so sacred American constitution had and I'm sure will have some amendments. 
As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. It definitely doesn't deprive gays of their normal life, that just impose some limits om their interactions with children. And if you ask me I'd say all persons, be they straight or gay, have some certain limits on how they're allowed to interact with children. 
That's all what I had to say. I hope I didn't hurt or abuse anyone but this is my view on the law

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## Lampada

> ...As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. ...

 Опять за рыбу гроши! Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого! Нельзя предложить девочке влюбиться в девочку, если она не родилась геем. Хорошо помню имена мальчиков, в которых я была влюблена в детском садике (Миша Сухинин), в младших классах (Олег Леднёв). В старших классах ни в кого не была влюблена, потом в институте (Толя Серёдкин) и т.д. То же самое про мальчиков. Мой сын ребёнком отнёс все свои "сокровища" *девочке* из другого класса. Потом спрашивал, а что можно сделать, чтобы понравиться кому-то.
Так что этот закон - злонамеренная чушь. И последствия этого закона для детей-геев просто трагические.  
Крис Кристи молодец!  http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...,6276501.story

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## Юрка

> Запрет рекламы гетеросексуальных отношений практически равносилен запрету брака между мужчиной и женщиной.

 Не брака, а публичных обнималок, сосалок, лежалок и т.д.
Кстати, порнография сразу получила бы удар. А то сейчас она не подсудна.  

> И последствия этого закона для детей-геев просто трагические.

 Да. Они не смогут размахивать причандалами на фестивале себе подобных. Такая трагедия...

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## alexsms

> Крис Кристи молодец!

  cool link provided, thanks

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## Doomer

> Опять за рыбу гроши! Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого!

 Well, you are actually wrong
There is no proven fact that it is impossible, as well as there is no proven fact that people born as gays Simon LeVay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Lampada

> Well, you are actually wrong
> There is no proven fact that it is impossible, as well as there is no proven fact that people born as gays Simon LeVay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 _"На колу висит мочало, начинаем всё сначала"._

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## maxmixiv

> Нет такого!

 Ну и тем более, значит закон ни на что не повлияет!
Но бережёного бог бережёт   ::

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## Doomer

> _"На колу висит мочало, начинаем всё сначала"._

 если все время говорить неправду, это не сделает ее правдой
если есть доказательства - попрошу в студию
иначе это просто полемика с попыткой подгона под результат

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## Lampada

> Ну и тем более, значит закон ни на что не повлияет!
> Но бережёного бог бережёт

 Очень сильно может повлиять на детей-геев.  Эти дети часто своих родителей боятся.  И часто, если родители отсталые и трусливые, они от своих детей-геев отказываются.  А Бог далеко.

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## iCake

> Опять за рыбу гроши! Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого! Нельзя предложить девочке влюбиться в девочку, если она не родилась геем. Хорошо помню имена мальчиков, в которых я была влюблена в детском садике (Миша Сухинин), в младших классах (Олег Леднёв). В старших классах ни в кого не была влюблена, потом в институте (Толя Серёдкин) и т.д. То же самое про мальчиков. Мой сын ребёнком отнёс все свои "сокровища" *девочке* из другого класса. Потом спрашивал, а что можно сделать, чтобы понравиться кому-то.
> Так что этот закон - злонамеренная чушь. И последствия этого закона для детей-геев просто трагические.  
> Крис Кристи молодец!  Chris Christie signs N.J. bill banning gay conversion therapy - latimes.com

 Did you even read my post? Or better say did you try to understand what I wrote? The law doesn't say that it's possible to make someone gay nor does it say that it's impossible. That just states that telling a juvenile to become gay is illegal. Can you ever try to abstract from your personal feelings when judging something or trying to prove something? As I said I wrote that text at my own risk to become hated and unpopular by who advocate gay rights here. So it seems that risk has come to pass. I'm so dissapointed. But please, take a look at my post again. Did I state there that I dissaprove/approve of gays? Well, it seems I didn't. What a pity. 
Another time you're trying to strike personally and all you're based on is just your subjective believes. Can you provide any proof that it's 100% impossible to influence someone so that they somehow become gay? Or better yet do you have any proof that homosexuality is something you're born with? Oops, it seems you don't. And I tell you why. There is no such kinds of prooves yet. There might be but not now. And don't you try to tell me that all gays claim they were born gay. It's yet their own subjective opinions they might be sure of that but they might be deluded. Don't you think? 
So without those kinds of prooves your statement is nothing but your personal opinion, which may or may not be true. So it doesn't give you any right to claim anything there  ::  
And for another time I see that you didn't really try to read into my post. Because the main statement there was under "first of all" and was about why it's ridiculous to boycott Sochi Olympics. It is not the thought that was conveyed with the most number of words, which is why you possibly didn't count it as the most important one, but it was definitely the gist of my post. 
Please, don't let your personal judgement cloud your thinking. You're much better than that. 
And I'm going out of here before people tear me apart for nothing. Good day

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## Lampada

> если все время говорить неправду, это не сделает ее правдой
> если есть доказательства - попрошу в студию
> иначе это просто полемика с попыткой подгона под результат

  А погуглить?

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## Doomer

> А погуглить?

 я погуглил и привел научное исследование как факт, что вы говорите неправду
можно найти кучу популизма и очень небольшое количество фактов
я так понимаю что посыл погуглить означает что фактов у вас нет

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## Lampada

*3 Ways to Know if You Are Gay - wikiHow 
"Understand a bit about what science says about being gay*. Studies seem to support a strong genetic component in sexual orientation. A hot area of research currently is in epigenetics, or the study of how non-genetic factors influence the expression of genes. Geneticists hypothesize that homosexuality is linked to "epi-marks," or extra layers of information that determine how genes are expressed.[4] Normally, epi-marks are deleted when genes get passed from parents to children. With homosexuals, scientists believe that epi-marks are not deleted, and instead passed on from either father to daughter or from mother to son.[4]  Scientists also think that having several older brothers increases the likelihood of a man being gay.[5] A male born to into a household of several older brothers is about 2% more likely to be gay, according to researchers at Brock University in St. Catharines, Canada.[5]Scientists strongly doubt that environment plays a role in a person's sexuality.[6][7][8] They believe that a person does not have a choice about whether they are gay, and that — on top of this — gay people do not usually become straight through self-dedication or coercion. Scientists have even determined that there may be an evolutionary benefit to being gay, called the "balancing selection hypothesis."[9]"Sources and Citations  ↑ Cage fighter: "Sex with men doesn’t make you gay or bisexual, just like a cigarette doesn’t make you a smoker" | San Diego Gay and Lesbian News↑ The 5 Stages Every Lesbian Goes Through↑ Julie Bindel: Sexual desire is a social construct | World news | The Guardian↑ 4.0 4.1 Scientists May Have Finally Unlocked Puzzle of Why People Are Gay - US News and World Report↑ 5.0 5.1 Men with older brothers more likely to be gay - Health - Health care - More health news | NBC News↑ Is Your Child Gay?: Scientific American↑ US researchers find evidence that homosexuality linked to genetics | World news | theguardian.com↑ Evolution Of Homosexuality Epigenetics - Business Insider↑ Male Homosexuality Study: Gay Men Have Evolutionary Benefit For Their Families, New Research Suggests↑ I'm From Driftwood - Daily gay, true stories↑ Coming Out Stories

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## Юрка

> А Бог далеко.

 Но Америка близко. Прилетят и расфигачат нас, чтобы мы хорошо себя вели и не обижали сироток.

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## Lampada

> Well, you are actually wrong
> There is no proven fact that it is impossible, as well as there is no proven fact that people born as gays Simon LeVay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Скучно мне во всё это вникать, но одно место привлекло моё внимание: "..._my findings are not to be believed because I am gay_." Смешно!

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## Doomer

> Скучно мне во всё это вникать, но одно место привлекло моё внимание: "..._my findings are not to be believed because I am gay_." Смешно!

 очень жаль что вас привлекают только смешные места и не привлекают факты
я почитал вашу ссылку, она лишь подтверждает мои слова: доказательств нет, а пока нет доказательств утверждать что люди рождаются геями - это давать заведомо ложную информацию. И как бы она не казалась социально-корректной, это все равно ложь

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## iCake

> очень жаль что вас привлекают только смешные места и не привлекают факты
> я почитал вашу ссылку, она лишь подтверждает мои слова: доказательств нет, а пока нет доказательств утверждать что люди рождаются геями - это давать заведомо ложную информацию. И как бы она не казалась социально-корректной, это все равно ложь

 That is what I hinted her at. But this sadly seems to have gone ignored  ::

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## Lampada

> очень жаль что вас привлекают только смешные места и не привлекают факты, я почитал вашу ссылку, она лишь подтверждает мои слова: доказательств нет, а пока нет доказательств утверждать что люди рождаются геями - это давать заведомо ложную информацию. И как бы она не казалась социально-корректной, это все равно ложь

 Каждый не очень образованный в биологии человек тоже имеет право верить избирательно, в том числе и я.
Но равноправие, справедливость и милосердие существуют для всех.

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## Юрка

> Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого!

 А я читал, что в семьях, где всё наоборот, процент отклонений у детей увеличивается с 2% примерно до 20%. 
Реальные маугли, воспитанные волками, не умеют говорить, ходить на двух ногах, улыбаться, испытывать человеческие эмоции и т.д. То есть многое в нашей жизни зависит от усвоенного поведения, а не от генетики.

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## Doomer

> Каждый не очень образованный в биологии человек тоже имеет право верить избирательно, в том числе и я.
> Но равноправие, справедливость и милосердие существуют для всех.

 конечно может, а каждый образованный человек может объяснить необразованному, где тот не прав
теперь вы это знаете, так что не надо повторять неправду как прописную истину, чтобы не плодить еще больше необразованных

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## Deborski

> *iCake:*  Did you even read my post? Or better say did you try to understand what I wrote? The law doesn't say that it's possible to make someone gay nor does it say that it's impossible. That just states that telling a juvenile to become gay is illegal. Can you ever try to abstract from your personal feelings when judging something or trying to prove something? As I said I wrote that text at my own risk to become hated and unpopular by who advocate gay rights here. So it seems that risk has come to pass. I'm so dissapointed. But please, take a look at my post again. Did I state there that I dissaprove/approve of gays? Well, it seems I didn't. What a pity.

 Igor, the thing is - we have already discussed so many of the things that you brought up!  You even said you did not read through the entire thread.  I think you should try to read through the thread before you criticize Lampada for "not reading" your post.  To be honest, I had the same reaction as Lampada when I saw what you wrote.  I don't think it's fair to make statements about her "personal feelings," etc.  Let's not make this personal about anyone's ability to understand, read, etc.  When people start insulting each other, a rational discussion is no longer possible.

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## Deborski

> First of all, the whole thread was not about gay rights but about why it's ridiculous to boycott Sochi Olympics because of the law. Well, I'm gonna tell you why: 
> If somebody here really thinks that gay athletes will be persecuted due to this law they need to guess again. Russian high officials are bound to give the police orders to look the other way when it comes to dealing with anything regarding Olympics. Russia is not interested in letting Olympics go astray from what they see perfect Olympic games. That's the matter of the country's image nonetheless! If you look at the history of how Russia held any impoprtant even it will just become obvious. We always try to organize the most lavish, perfect and astonishing events if they're to be international. This is the Russian thing, it's a part of our culture. (Well, the thing is that we don't always undoubtly pull this off but that's another thing to discuss. ) There is nothing to believe it's gonna be different this time or at any time soon.

 I have been opposed to a boycott all along.  I very much doubt that Russia is going to arrest foreigners in Sochi, because if they arrest everyone who wears a rainbow or paints their nails like rainbows, they would have to arrest thousands of people and they are not going to have the manpower or facilities for that. 
I also think that Russia needs these Games.  They need the tourism and money the Games will generate for the Russian economy, and they need the prestige of the Games because Russia plans to hold more international competitions in the future. 
On the other hand, I would not be surprised if there are some overzealous police officers who DO arrest foreigners during the Olympics and cause a huge scandal.  The very fact that this law has been created, and the fact that there has been so much back-and-forth with officials in Russia and on the International Olympic Committee about how and to what degree the laws will be enforced during the games, has led to a lot of concern and outrage in the west.  I think because people are so outraged about the law, Russia might as well have said "Hey!  All you queers!  Come on over and show us how you feel about this law!"  I think you can expect to see a LOT of protest during the Games, and it is going to be very interesting how Russia will respond to that. 
There is no way to foresee the future, but I predict that there will be a lot of foreigners protesting the laws.    

> Second of all, did somebody here actually examine the law? All it says is that it's prohibited to popularize the notion among juveniles that being a gay is utterly great, awesome and so much better than being dully straight. In other words it's illegal to tell juveniles that they should be gay or to incline them to be gay by any means. And it undoubtly doesn't prohibit anyone from being gay, also it doesn't prohibit anyone from telling an adult that to be gay is great, doesn't prohibit gay clubs as long as they host adults only, doesn't prohibit so called "pride parades" as long as no juveniles are involved and it doesn't prohibit any gay symbolics. Still more it doesn't prohibit a whole load of other gay activities but I think it's enough for now because you've most likely got the point already.

 Alex posted the entire text of the law and we have discussed it at some length already.     

> As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. It definitely doesn't deprive gays of their normal life, that just impose some limits om their interactions with children. And if you ask me I'd say all persons, be they straight or gay, have some certain limits on how they're allowed to interact with children.

 You can't turn a child gay.  A child is either gay or not gay.  Unfortunately, with this law in place, gay children will not receive any support or understanding from society.  They will feel alone, misunderstood, and afraid to admit who they really are.  Some will learn to wear a mask, to pretend they are not gay.  They may even grow up, have families and kids of their own - and have gay love affairs on the side the whole time.  This happens frequently in conservative religious societies where homosexuality is viewed as a "sin."  When their wives and kids find out about their secret gay lovers, there is a great deal of pain and suffering for everyone involved, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself.  The wife and children will (understandably) no longer trust the husband/father who had a gay lover all this time.  The wife will probably divorce the husband, and then the kids will have no father.  And ALL of this will happen because the child was not allowed to be openly gay in the first place, and did not have the support of society.   
I don't think that people are looking at the long-term consequences of these laws.  The laws are a band-aid solution to a problem which really requires skilled surgery and intensive care.  The law is nothing but an appeal to populist ideals, and a distraction from more serious issues. 
Yes, I understand that this is Russia's right to do as it pleases and that my opinion as a "foreigner" is not welcome or appreciated.  But I think, over the next ten or twenty years, Russia will slowly come to understand what I have just said here.  I guess Russia will have to follow its own path, and find out on its own.  It took America and Europe many decades to get to the place where we decided to protect gay people and support them in society, and we are still evolving.  Even with all of our protections and support in place, people are still discriminated against, beaten, and killed because they are gay.  So even in the west, we have a long way to go.

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## iCake

> Igor, the thing is - we have already discussed so many of the things that you brought up!  You even said you did not read through the entire thread.  I think you should try to read through the thread before you criticize Lampada for "not reading" your post.  To be honest, I had the same reaction as Lampada when I saw what you wrote.  I don't think it's fair to make statements about her "personal feelings," etc.  Let's not make this personal about anyone's ability to understand, read, etc.  When people start insulting each other, a rational discussion is no longer possible.

 Okay, I see. I tried to be as distant about gays as I could and then I got nothing but a personal based biased view thrown back at me. Sorry for asking to be as distant in your views as I tried to be. Sorry for asking not to completely distort the gist of what I said. Sorry for being such a jerk who definitely doesn't support homosexuality, although I didn't even said that. Sorry for trying to express my thoughts while holding on to only facts and I'm most definitely sorry for expecting a reply based on facts as well. 
As for the rational conversation I don't see one and I don't think I will. 
Nice chatting about gay rights and great job backing each other up  ::

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## Deborski

> Okay, I see. I tried to be as distant about gays as I could and then I got nothing but a personal based biased view thrown back at me. Sorry for asking to be as distant in your views as I tried to be. Sorry for asking not to completely distort the gist of what I said. Sorry for being such a jerk who definitely doesn't support homosexuality, although I didn't even said that. Sorry for trying to express my thoughts while holding on to only facts and I'm most definitely sorry for expecting a reply based on facts as well. 
> As for the rational conversation I don't see one and I don't think I will. 
> Nice chatting about gay rights and great job backing each other up

 And now who is allowing personal feelings to get in the way?  Come on, Igor, I didn't even accuse you of any of those things.  I just thought it was unfair how you (and Doomer) ganged up on Lampada and made statements about her not understanding.  So, is it ok for you two to "back each other up" but not ok for me to back up Lampada? 
Let's just get away from all the personal stuff.  What I mean by personal is not our opinions regarding gay rights, but people's individual personalities.  Let's not turn this into a flame-fest!  The discussion actually has been quite civil so far.  Not everyone is agreeing with each other of course, but for the most part, we are not attacking each other on a personal level.   
No one is throwing their opinions in your face anymore than you have thrown your opinions out here.  Everyone has a right to agree or disagree.  I am just asking that we not start attacking people's individual personalities or making statements about their personal faults, etc, etc.  Once the insults start flying, there can no longer be a civilized discussion.

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## Eledhwen

Дебора, в Международном Олимпийском Комитете (МОК) есть статья, запрещающая любую политическую или социальную пропаганду. МОК уже отреагировал, как и российские спортсмены. ...Кстати, на универсиаде и чемпионате по лёгкой атлетике никаких протестов и провокаций не было.
Если говорить более серьезно — русские *прекрасно осознают*, что это шаг в сторону пропасти. Это исходит от самих людей, у нас прививка от этой напасти.   

> Unfortunately, with this law in place, gay children will not receive any support or understanding from society. They will feel alone, misunderstood, and afraid to admit who they really are. Some will learn to wear a mask, to pretend they are not gay. ... ...

 Человек, который стал геем или лесбиянкой должен искать помощи прежде всего у психолога, поскольку *что-то сломало* его *естественную* (природную) *программу*. В результате, и в пределе возможно только два варианта:
1. Добровольное или принудительное свидание с психотерапевтом, если человек не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.
2. Человек остается наедине со своей проблемой и никому её не показывает до тех пор, пока не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.

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## Eledhwen

Итак. Человек имеет право на нетрадиционную сексуальную ориентацию, но он не имеет права её пропагандировать и продвигать.
Дебора, понятно почему, или пояснить дополнительно (это не угроза, а аппеляция к знаниям по биологии и социологии)?

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## Deborski

On the subject of "are they born gay or did they choose to be gay" - we can all post links to support our point of view on this.  But the actual scientific studies which have been done (as opposed to wikipedia articles or links to homophobic websites) show that gay people have no choice.  It's actually in their DNA. 
Religious people in the west believe gays can be "cured."  That has been proven wrong again and again with disastrous results.  All that this supposed "therapy" does is indoctrinate people with Bible scriptures showing that homosexuality is a sin, thus shaming the people who are gay to the point where they believe there is something wrong with them.  They will then wear a mask, pretend to be straight, and they will wind up not only deceiving themselves but many other people as well.  Many of the subjects of this "therapy" also commit suicide from all of the shame that is heaped upon them. 
In fact, the largest organization in the US dedicated to so-called "conversion therapy" has closed its doors because it was so unsuccessful, and its leader has even admitted he was wrong.  The Downfall of Exodus International Signals Change | Mia Norton  _From this article: _    

> The concepts taught by Exodus International have been backed by flawed scientific "evidence" that the anti-gay community has used to justify its agenda. In 2003 Dr. Robert L. Spitzer produced a study claiming that in interviewing 200 graduates of reparative therapy, all claimed to have had a decrease in or a complete reversal of homosexual attractions. Exodus International, Focus on the Family and other Christian-right group have clung to this slim shred of documentation that "gays can be cured." Even after Spitzer renounced that position and admitted that the study was not conclusive on the matter, these groups have continued to base their damaging treatments on his flawed and incomplete data. Exodus International has been revered by the Christian right as the leading reparative therapy group in the nation, spurring many splinter groups to crop up and follow in its likeness. Christian organizations have relied heavily on the work of Exodus International to fuel the misconception that homosexuality is a choice and a sin, and that it can and should be changed.

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## Deborski

> Дебора, в Международном Олимпийском Комитете (МОК) есть статья, запрещающая любую политическую или социальную пропаганду. МОК уже отреагировал, как и российские спортсмены. ...Кстати, на универсиаде и чемпионате по лёгкой атлетике никаких протестов и провокаций не было.
> Если говорить более серьезно — русские *прекрасно осознают*, что это шаг в сторону пропасти. Это исходит от самих людей, у нас прививка от этой напасти.  
> Человек, который стал геем или лесбиянкой должен искать помощи прежде всего у психолога, поскольку *что-то сломало* его *естественную* (природную) *программу*. В результате, и в пределе возможно только два варианта:
> 1. Добровольное или принудительное свидание с психотерапевтом, если человек не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.
> 2. Человек остается наедине со своей проблемой и никому её не показывает до тех пор, пока не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.

 
The idea that gay people can be "cured" is, as I have now noted multiple times, outdated and erroneous.  Many psychological studies have already been done to prove this, but I can see that Russia will have to figure this out for itself.  Talk to me about this again in twenty years, if I am still alive then.  Meanwhile, nothing you are saying here is "new" to me.  Americans used to believe the same way back in the 1950's.  Religious conservatives in America still do believe this way.  But the psychology community, the scientific community, agrees that being gay is not a "bad habit" or a "sin" or something that can be "cured."

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## Eledhwen

Откуда такая информация? Ты точно уверена в её достоверности?
Если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить заразить нормальных людей. Не так ли (без эмоций)? В природе такие всегда отфильтровывались (и не только по этой причине) естественным или биологическим отбором.

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## Doomer

> And now who is allowing personal feelings to get in the way?  Come on, Igor, I didn't even accuse you of any of those things.  I just thought it was unfair how you (and Doomer) ganged up on Lampada and made statements about her not understanding.  So, is it ok for you two to "back each other up" but not ok for me to back up Lampada?

 I'm trying to use facts, you trying to use social studies which are not facts
And all I'm saying that there is NO PROOF for either of theories. But you saying: "oh, well, there is no proof, so we make up our own conclusion and that's gonna be the truth". I mean that is exactly what the Church was trying to do to you when you were younger and sadly this is what you are doing now. You supporting your believes with fakes to make yourself feel better.

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## Doomer

> On the subject of "are they born gay or did they choose to be gay" - we can all post links to support our point of view on this.  But the actual scientific studies which have been done (as opposed to wikipedia articles or links to homophobic websites) show that gay people have no choice.  It's actually in their DNA.

 Well, actually there are no facts confirming that being gay is genetic disorder. It's only "believes" and no proof

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## Deborski

> I'm trying to use facts, you trying to use social studies which are not facts
> And all I'm saying that there is NO PROOF for either of theories. But you saying: "oh, well, there is no proof, so we make up our own conclusion and that's gonna be the truth". I mean that is exactly what the Church was trying to do to you when you were younger and sadly this is what you are doing now. You supporting your believes with fakes to make yourself feel better.

 And now you are getting personal and making implications about my level of intelligence/understanding, etc.  Sorry, but I am not going to get into this with you.  I did not reference "social studies" - I am referencing psychological studies and scientific studies.  Whereas, you are just voicing your opinion.  You will choose what to believe in, I guess.  But as long as you are going after me with veiled insults, I am not going to respond to you further.

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## Deborski

> Откуда такая информация? Ты точно уверена в её достоверности?
> Если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить заразить нормальных людей. Не так ли (без эмоций)? В природе такие всегда отфильтровывались (и не только по этой причине) естественным или биологическим отбором.

 As I said, I guess you will just have to find out for yourself.  Come back to me in 20 years and we can discuss it then. 
Meanwhile, gay people can not "infect" anyone.  Being gay is not "contagious."  LOL

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## Eledhwen

А я с ним абсолютно согласен. Дебора, не обижайся, никто тебя не оскорблял. Просто расти над собой, если собираешься жить дальше, даже если что-то кажется непоколебимой догмой. 
У меня тоже проблем хватает, которые надо решать.

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## Doomer

> And now you are getting personal and making implications about my level of intelligence/understanding, etc.  Sorry, but I am not going to get into this with you.  I did not reference "social studies" - I am referencing psychological studies and scientific studies.  Whereas, you are just voicing your opinion.  You will choose what to believe in, I guess.  But as long as you are going after me with veiled insults, I am not going to respond to you further.

 Could you please point me to the article that confirms that being gay is a genetic disorder, because that's what you said earlier  

> It's actually in their DNA.

 psychological studies cannot confirm the medical fact of genetic disorder because psychological studies can only be done on people who actually can respond i.e. not on babies. Thus they might confirm that "gayness" cannot be "cured" but they cannot confirm that people born with it. And that's a big issue and big question. Because if that's either environmental or social then it can be prevented in some cases and people should now that they might have a choice for their children and this is very important.

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## Deborski

The Real Story on Gay Genes | DiscoverMagazine.com   

> Methylation turns off certain sections of genetic code. So even though we inherit two copies of every gene—one from our mother, one from our father—whether the gene is methylated often determines which of the two genes will be turned on. Methylation is inherited, just as DNA is. But unlike DNA, which has an enzyme that proofreads both the original and the copy to minimize errors, methylation has no built-in checks. It can change from one generation to the next and may be influenced by diet or environment. It’s in this mutability that Bocklandt hopes to find the secret, by seeing which flipped genetic switches correlate with homosexuality.

  A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome an... [Science. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI   

> The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

 http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/1...homosexuality/   

> To be specific, the new theory suggests that homosexuality is caused by epigenetic marks, or “epi-marks,” related to sensitivity to hormones in the womb. These are compounds that sit on DNA and regulate how active, or inactive certain genes are, and also control when during development these genes are most prolific. Gavrilets and his colleagues believe that gene expression may regulate how a fetus responds to testosterone, the all-important male sex hormone. They further argue that epi-marks may help to buffer a female fetus from high levels of testosterone by suppressing receptors that respond to testosterone, for example, (thus ensuring normal fetal development even in the presence of a lot of testosterone) or to buffer a male fetus from low levels of testosterone by upregulating receptors that bind to the hormone (ensuring normal fetal development even in the absence of high levels of testosterone). Normally, these epi-marks are erased after they are activated, but if those marks are passed down to the next generation, the same epi-marks that protected a man in utero may cause oversensitivity to testosterone among his daughters, and the epi-marks that protected a woman in utero may lead to undersensitivity to testosterone among her sons.

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## Deborski

> А я с ним абсолютно согласен. Дебора, не обижайся, никто тебя не оскорблял. Просто расти над собой, если собираешься жить дальше, даже если что-то кажется непоколебимой догмой. 
> У меня тоже проблем хватает, которые надо решать.

 I'm sorry, but it does offend me when people make this a personal issue and start attacking me personally, rather than stick to the facts.  Of course, I will not allow this to ruin my day or anything.  But if people start insulting me, I am not going to continue discussing the subject with them.

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## Eledhwen

Проверим.
Но в любом случае, если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить распространиться на нормальных людей. Иначе это приведет к вырождению, а всё начинается именно с толерантности (безвольности).

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## Deborski

> Проверим.
> Но в любом случае, если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить распространиться на нормальных людей. Иначе это приведет к вырождению, а всё начинается именно с толерантности (безвольности).

 Yes, Hitler thought the same thing.  He thought that everyone who was a "mutant" should be rounded up and "weeded out."  And when we start deciding what is a "mutant" and what is "normal" - where does it end up?  For now, you call gay people "mutants."  What about autistic kids?  Should be also weed them out?  What about kids who are born with no legs and no arms?  Should we round them up and put them in concentration camps? 
Where does it end?

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## Eledhwen

Стоп-стоп. Я говорил о запрете пропаганды. Если кто-то — человек нетрадиционной сексуальной ориентации — это его дело, но не надо перекладывать с больной головы на здоровую.

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## Deborski

> Стоп-стоп. Я говорил о запрете пропаганды. Если кто-то — человек нетрадиционной сексуальной ориентации — это его дело, но не надо перекладывать с больной головы на здоровую.

 You specifically stated that you think "mutants" should not be allowed to exist.  I simply replied that Hitler thought the same way.  There is no shifting of blame to anyone.  I was certainly not "blaming" anyone - but it seemed to me that you are blaming people for being gay, and insisting that it's some kind of "disease" or "mutation" which can be fixed and cured.  I'm just asking you to re-examine your own thoughts. 
I will not "стоп-стоп" supporting gay rights in my country.  And if Russia has laws which make it illegal for me to wear something as innocent as a rainbow on my nails, I probably won't travel there any time soon.  It makes me sad, because I love Russia.  But at the same time, I have friends who are gay and I support them.  I am not ever going to stop supporting them. 
In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are.  I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change.  My thinking evolved.  Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

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## Doomer

> The Real Story on Gay Genes | DiscoverMagazine.com

 Thank you but there is still no proof. I read the articles and they were long but if you also read the whole thing you will find what I'm talking about 
Here is an example
You quoting article  

> Methylation turns off certain sections of genetic code. So even though we inherit two copies of every gene—one from our mother, one from our father—whether the gene is methylated often determines which of the two genes will be turned on. Methylation is inherited, just as DNA is. But unlike DNA, which has an enzyme that proofreads both the original and the copy to minimize errors, methylation has no built-in checks. It can change from one generation to the next and may be influenced by diet or environment. It’s in this mutability that Bocklandt hopes to find the secret, by seeing which flipped genetic switches correlate with homosexuality.

 And later the same articles says  

> Ideally, Bocklandt would scan the genome of each individual, looking for a methylation pattern anywhere on any chromosome that shows up repeatedly in the gay member of each twin pair. Unfortunately, at the moment it costs about $10 million a person to map out every base pair of the 46 chromosomes, so Bocklandt is looking only where he suspects to unearth genetic gold. *If he finds a pattern, then he will look at the DNA beneath the methylation.*

 So again it's a theory that might be true and might be not true. And all I'm saying that until it is true you shouldn't say otherwise and that's all I'm saying in this regard 
Moreover he's studying twins, specifically , to prove that it is beyond DNA. Because twins have the same DNA and one of the twins can be straight while the other is gay. And this is a strong argument against "born this way" nature of the cause. However it is also a strong argument against environmental cause, so there is a chance that it is social(for example one of the twins dominating the other) but again, no proof 
PS: However if it is social the Russian law seems to be quite reasonable. I believe some gay people would like to be "not-gay" if they could. If being gay is not genetic but acquired during brain development then it can be prevented. As well as some kids require psychological help to give them a better chance in life (I'm not talking about gays here but rather special eds )

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## Deborski

> So again it's a theory that might be true and might be not true. And all I'm saying that until it is true you shouldn't say otherwise and that's all I'm saying in this regard.

 But it's OK  for you to state adamantly that people are NOT born gay, right?  Just not OK for me to say they they ARE born gay. 
Look, you are entitled to your opinion, Doomer.  And I am entitled to mine.  Just because I am not a geneticist does not mean I am wrong.  And just because this is a science which is still evolving, does not make you right either. 
We will agree to disagree.  But do not try to shout me down and call my opinions BULLSHIT when you cannot "prove" anything either.

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## Doomer

> But it's OK  for you to state adamantly that people are NOT born gay, right?  Just not OK for me to say they they ARE born gay.

 No, you are incorrect
I did not say that people are not born gay, I said that's it is wrong to say that they are. And again because there is no proof. And because it is a sensitive topic these small details matter.   

> We will agree to disagree.  But do not try to shout me down and call my opinions BULLSHIT when you cannot "prove" anything either.

 I am not calling them bullshit I'm calling them conclusions that are not based on facts but rather on personal believes. So it is a religion but not science. 
PS: you don't like to be criticized but it seems to me that you think it is appropriate to criticize the others. I think you should play fair if you want to see respect to your opinions .

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## Deborski

> No, you are incorrect
> I did not say that people are not born gay, I said that's it is wrong to say that they are. And again because there is no proof. And because it is a sensitive topic these small details matter.  
> I am not calling them bullshit I'm calling them conclusions that are not based on facts but rather on personal believes. So it is a religion but not science. 
> PS: you don't like to be criticized but it seems to me that you think it is appropriate to criticize the others. I think you should play fair if you want to see respect to your opinions .

 You've made the statement many times, Doomer.  I am not just responding to your latest comment, but to the many, many times you have said that it's "bullshit."   
It isn't "religion" - that's just silly.  I'm about as far from "religious" as you can get. 
There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not.  How you choose to interpret that evidence, or completely ignore it, is your choice. 
It isn't criticizing you personally to tell you to stop shouting me down.  It's setting boundaries.  Criticizing you personally, would be to make some remark about your intelligence or your emotional control, which I have not, and will not, do.

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## Deborski

Why A Video Of A 15-Year-Old Russian Kid Facing Homophobic Bullying Is So Horrific - SFGate _
From this article:_   

> In the video, which appears to have been shot in the winter in the suburbs of a Russian city, a 15-year-old boy has been lured to a meeting place by the fictional online persona "Uncle Dima." However, once he is there he is met by a gang of young men and women. These young men and women apparently created a fake "Uncle Dima" account on VK, a Russian social network similar to Facebook, to lure the young boy to the meeting place. 
> They imply — though it is difficult to trust them — that the boy was planning to have some kind of sexual conduct with "Uncle Dima" in return for the money to buy a laptop. 
> Clearly under duress, the 15-year-old is then forced to "confess" to being a homosexual. He is forced to reveal his full name, the school he goes to, his parents' names, home address, etc. 
> Perhaps what is most remarkable about the video is that the gang that attacks the boy clearly feels proud of their actions. A number appear clearly in the video, and while one does wear a mask at one point, this may be more for intimidation. At another point an older lady comes into the frame, and she commends the gang for their actions, and tells the boy to be ashamed of himself.

 *Warning, video includes strong language and abuse.*

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## Marcus

> You specifically stated that you think "mutants" should not be allowed to exist.  I simply replied that Hitler thought the same way.  There is no shifting of blame to anyone.  I was certainly not "blaming" anyone - but it seemed to me that you are blaming people for being gay, and insisting that it's some kind of "disease" or "mutation" which can be fixed and cured.  I'm just asking you to re-examine your own thoughts. 
> I will not "стоп-стоп" supporting gay rights in my country.  And if Russia has laws which make it illegal for me to wear something as innocent as a rainbow on my nails, I probably won't travel there any time soon.  It makes me sad, because I love Russia.  But at the same time, I have friends who are gay and I support them.  I am not ever going to stop supporting them. 
> In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are.  I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change.  My thinking evolved.  Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

 Радугу никто не запрещал.

----------


## Doomer

> You've made the statement many times, Doomer.  I am not just responding to your latest comment, but to the many, many times you have said that it's "bullshit."

 It is pointless to make an argument about something which is not here IMHO. As well as accusing me with it  

> It isn't "religion" - that's just silly.  I'm about as far from "religious" as you can get.

 Well if you have a better word for it then use it. I guess I can be silly, or was that another accusation?  

> There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not.

 Again, where is the proof to that? I'm getting tired of these statements   

> It isn't criticizing you personally to tell you to stop shouting me down.  It's setting boundaries.  Criticizing you personally, would be to make some remark about your intelligence or your emotional control, which I have not, and will not, do.

 Well, I wasn't criticizing you I was just making boundaries, everything else is just your interpretations.

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## Deborski

> Радугу никто не запрещал.

  Gays arrested in Russia for wearing rainbow suspenders - AMERICAblog

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## Doomer

> Gays arrested in Russia for wearing rainbow suspenders - AMERICAblog

 reality check  

> After 7 hours of detention, activists were not charged with “propaganda”, but with articles of St. Petersburg administrative code 19.3 (non-compliance with police requests) and 20.2 (participation in illegal demonstration) and released.

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## iCake

del

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## Deborski

*Warning, phallic images and uncontrollable laughter:*

----------


## Throbert McGee

> The law doesn't say that it's possible to make someone gay nor does it say that it's impossible. That just states that telling a juvenile to become gay is illegal.

 Really? Where does it say that? Here's the actual text of Part 1 and the beginning of part 2, as already posted by alexsms (the rest of the law details the different amounts of the fines, depending on the circumstances): _
 1. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток._ _
2. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния [...]_ 
Where does it say ANYTHING about "telling a juvenile to become gay"? The law, if enforced as written, seemingly makes it illegal to publish a written opinion in a newspaper that gay people can lead happy, healthy, and psychologically well-adjusted lives. Because, presumably, the opinion that "gays can be happy" relates to the _привлекательность нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений_ -- and ANYTHING published in a newspaper -- or posted to a non-pay website -- must be considered, in principle, доступно несовершеннолетним. As written, it comes close to the Orwellian concept of "thoughtcrime," since it prohibits the public expression of certain *ideas*.

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## Throbert McGee

> There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not.

 I would say, rather, that there is a lot of evidence supporting the idea that sexual orientation -- *homo or hetero* -- tends to develop long before *the beginning of puberty*. But whether children are literally "born gay", or whether they "become this way" very early in childhood, is an altogether different question.   
And I would point out, by the way, that the acquisition of one's native language -- English, Russian, Chinese, or whatever -- is not the result of genes, nor of fetal hormones; it's something learned very early in childhood. Yet the fact that one's native language is learned from the childhood environment does not make it unlearnable or "correctable." 
I'm a native English speaker, and even if someday I miraculously obtain "near-native" ability in Russian (стучать по дереву!) I will still be a native English speaker -- the grammar of English will always be more familiar to me. (And, under torture, I would say "f*cking Chr*st!" or "I want my mommy!", depending on the degree of pain -- but I'd scream it in English, not Russian!)  
It's also possible, in theory, that a homosexual can learn to enjoy sexual activity with the opposite sex, and thus become "more bisexual" rather than strictly homosexual. But that doesn't mean they lose their same-sex attractions and become heterosexual. (I think that people can probably "shift a bit" on the Kinsey Scale, but there's little evidence that people can move from the extreme homosexual end to the extreme heterosexual end, or vice versa.)  
As far as I know, there's only one SURE way for a gay person to become an "ex-homosexual," or for a straight person to become "ex-heterosexual," or for a native English speaker to become an "ex-native-English-speaker" -- горбатого могила исправит!

----------


## MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY

This link was probably one of the scientific articles that i've read about this article so far, Are People Born Gay? Genetics and Homosexuality 
But anyways, this is how they "are" now, whether they born this way or not.
I personally think saying gay people shouldn't be gay, is like,  for example saying someone should not like ice cream while he/she actually do like it and enjoy it. 
It's their personal business.
And it's the majority of society who (if possible) can change anything in a country. But it definitely needs time depending on the culture of the country.
Just like majority of Sweden, Holland, Norway, Denmark, and..... Supported this idea so now the minority of them who do not support can't do anything but at least they can don't care about it, can't they?! And if they can't respect, at least don't disrespect them "just" because they're gay.

----------


## Throbert McGee

By the way, for people who think this is only about the behavior of foreigners at the Sochi Olympics, I would point out that if Lampada were posting from a Russian Internet account instead of a US one, she would now be liable for fines of *at least a few thousand dollars*, by my estimate,* just for this thread alone!* (Again, I'm assuming that the law were to be enforced exactly as it's written -- in reality, I expect that since Lampada is only a "blog _commenter_" and not a "blog _owner_," it's unlikely she would be fined, even if she were living in Russia. But why should Russians in Russia be fined for creating a blog that challenges homophobic ideas, and presents gay-supportive ideas instead, just because "minors might read it"?)

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## Throbert McGee

> But anyways, this is how they "are" now, whether they born this way or not.
> I personally think saying gay people shouldn't be gay, is like, for example saying someone should not like ice cream while he/she actually do like it and enjoy it.

 ~97% of teenage boys would think you were insane if you told them "naked women aren't sexy; naked men are sexy!" To them, and to their brains, it's it's SELF-EVIDENTLY OBVIOUS that naked men are sexually unattractive, but naked women are the most beautiful sight in the world. 
~3% of teenage boys are "wired the opposite way"; their subjective and unconscious definition of what "sexy" means is backwards. 
And trying to tell either group how they SHOULD define "sexy" is as much a waste of time as telling people they should like raspberry ice cream more than chocolate ice cream.

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## Lampada

> " -- горбатого могила исправит!

  "Горбатого и могила не исправит". ::

----------


## Deborski

Russia: Finnish minister waves rainbow flag at Moscow athletics, despite anti-gay laws - PinkNews.co.uk _
From this article: _    

> The Finnish minister for culture and sports attended the World Athletic Championships in Moscow last week, and on Saturday, despite harsh anti-gay laws, flew a rainbow flag at the event. 
> The Finnish media reports that Paavo Arhinmäki flew the flag whilst watching the women’s high jump final, which featured Sweden’s Emma Green-Tregaro, who made her own show of support for LGBT Russians.

----------


## alexsms

I am in the mood to use different colors in this post.

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## Юрка

Когда у нас был закон, по которому геев в тюрьму сажали за сам факт нетрадиционных отношений, всё "западное сообщество" молчало в тряпочку. А теперь вдруг активизировались. То есть нажим на нас усилился, хотя режим смягчился. К чему бы это и в чём логика?

----------


## Юрка

> In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are.

 Почему Вы называете гомофобией нашу позицию? У меня тоже есть знакомые геи, к которым я хорошо отношусь. Мы же не против них. Они же могут жить счастливо без агитации за свой образ ... жизни? Они могут жить тихо, как простые обыватели, или им неприменно надо бегать с флагом по улице? Им неприменно нужно создавать бесплодные союзы и потом усыновлять кого-то? Им непрменно нужно называть свои союзы семьёй? На каком основании они посягают на гетересексуальный социальный институт, а не создают свой социальный институт? Может потому, что они не могут его создать? Может, не каждое сексуальное действие ведёт к созданию института?   

> I have friends who are gay and I support them. I am not ever going to stop supporting them.

 Вы точно знаете, что они геи? А у нас не принято рассказывать о своей сексуальной ориентации и начинать беседу с фразы "здравствуйте, меня зовут Вася, я гей". Если мне кто-то скажет такое, то я подумаю, что он мне предлагает себя в качестве партнёра.

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## xdns

The mayor of Reykjavik at the Gay Pride in 2011:   
At the Gay Pride in 2012 (supporting Pussy Riot):   
In 2013 wearing the national dress:   
Possible viking reaction (from Asterix and Obelix: God Save Britannia):     ::

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## Lampada

> Почему Вы называете гомофобией нашу позицию? У меня тоже есть знакомые геи, к которым я хорошо отношусь. Мы же не против них. Они же могут жить счастливо без агитации за свой образ ... жизни? Они огут жить тихо, как простые обыватели, или им неприменно надо бегать с флагом по улице? Им неприменно нужно создавать бесплодные союзы и потом усыновлять кого-то? Им непрменно нужно называть свои союзы семьёй? На каком основании они посягают на гетересексуальный социальный институт, а не создают свой социальный институт? Может потому, что они не могут его создать? Может, не каждое сексуальное действие ведёт к созданию института? 
> Вы точно знаете, что они геи? А у нас не принято рассказывать о своей сексуальной ориентации и начинать беседу с фразы "здравствуйте, меня зовут Вася, я гей". Если мне кто-то скажет такое, то я подумаю, что он мне предлагает себя в качестве партнёра.

 "Почему Вы называете гомофобией *нашу* позицию?" 
"*Мы* же не против *них*." 
"*Они* же могут" 
"*Они* могут жить тихо" 
"или *им* надо" 
"*Им*" 
"*Им*" 
"На каком основании *они* посягают" 
"*они* не могут " 
"*они*" 
"А* у нас* не принято"   ::   _
непременно
без агитации своего образа жизни_

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## Юрка

У вас там уже местоимения не политкорректны?  :: )
Лампада, если люди спорят (а тут спорят), то нет ничего криминального, что есть две (как минимум) стороны.
Если же люди спорят, но говорят, что сторона одна, то это лицемерие. Давайте оставим его кому-нибудь другому. Например, чиновникам из Евросоюза. Смешно смотреть, как они деруться за каждый грош, но говорят про единство ЕС.

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## Lampada

> У вас там уже местоимения не политкорректны? )
> Лампада, если люди спорят (а тут спорят), то нет ничего криминального, что есть две (как минимум) стороны.
> Если же люди спорят, но говорят, что сторона одна, то это лицемерие. Давайте оставим его кому-нибудь другому. Например, чиновникам из Евросоюза. Смешно смотреть, как они деруться за каждый грош, но говорят про единство ЕС.

 _неполиткорректны
Они дерутся_

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## Юрка

А зачем Вы исправляете мои ошибки? Это не политкорректно.  ::

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## Deborski

> Когда у нас был закон, по которому геев в тюрьму сажали за сам факт нетрадиционных отношений, всё "западное сообщество" молчало в тряпочку. А теперь вдруг активизировались. То есть нажим на нас усилился, хотя режим смягчился. К чему бы это и в чём логика?

 Yurka, during Soviet times, gay rights had not evolved in the west to the extent that it has now.  Even in the early 1990's, when the USSR collapsed, the majority of Americans were homophobic, although the tide was starting to turn.  I mean, "Philadelphia" - a profound movie which marked a big turning point in the gay-rights movement - did not exist until 1993. 
Today is a much different time in the west, just as it is a different time in your country.

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## Deborski

> Почему Вы называете гомофобией нашу позицию? У меня тоже есть знакомые геи, к которым я хорошо отношусь. Мы же не против них. Они же могут жить счастливо без агитации за свой образ ... жизни? Они могут жить тихо, как простые обыватели, или им неприменно надо бегать с флагом по улице? Им неприменно нужно создавать бесплодные союзы и потом усыновлять кого-то? Им непрменно нужно называть свои союзы семьёй? На каком основании они посягают на гетересексуальный социальный институт, а не создают свой социальный институт? Может потому, что они не могут его создать? Может, не каждое сексуальное действие ведёт к созданию института?

 The difference is that I do not think my friends should have to live "тихо."  I think they should have the same rights I have, to marry, to love, to kiss in public, to adopt children if they want.  I do not think they have some kind of "sickness" and I do not pity them or feel they are inferior to me, or damaged in any way.  If you are not homophobic, then I apologize for my remark.  But when you support laws which force your friends to live in hiding, it is hard for me to understand how you can be considered their "friend."   

> Вы точно знаете, что они геи? А у нас не принято рассказывать о своей сексуальной ориентации и начинать беседу с фразы "здравствуйте, меня зовут Вася, я гей". Если мне кто-то скажет такое, то я подумаю, что он мне предлагает себя в качестве партнёра.

 Конечно, знаю!  In America, gay people do not have to HIDE who they are!  And if they tell me they are gay, it has nothing to do with sex.  They are not trying to "be my partner" except in a platonic sense.  They all respect that I am a "breeder."  One of my closest and dearest friends is a lesbian.  She has never once tried to "cross the line" with me.  Why would she?  She knows I'm straight.  Our friendship has nothing to do with sex.   
And even if a lesbian DID try to come on to me, or mistakenly thought I was gay, I would just tell her "sorry, I am not interested" and that would be the end of it.  Gay people do not want to "convert" straight people.  That is such a silly myth! 
Maybe I should be asking you, how _you_ know that your friends are gay!!

----------


## Deborski

Award-winning German playwright rejects invitation to Moscow over anti-gay laws - PinkNews.co.uk  _From this article:_   

> A German playwright has joined in an international boycott of Russia because of its anti-gay laws, after he refused to visit the country for a performance of his play. 
> Marius von Mayenburg, turned down the invitation to visit Moscow to give a masterclass, and attend a staging of his work. 
> He cited the federal law which bans the promotion of “non-traditional relationships”, as his reason for declining, and noted a solidarity with his LGBT friends. 
> “I work with a lot of artists of non-traditional sexual orientation who are my friends, who I have ties with and who I feel responsible for,” von Mayenburg said in a letter to the Moscow’s Theatre of Nations, and to the Territory international contemporary art festival.

----------


## Throbert McGee

> *Warning, phallic images and uncontrollable laughter:*

    "Well!  I've often seen a cat without a dick," thought Alice; "but a dick without a cat!  It's the most curious thing I ever saw in my life!"

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## Doomer

> The difference is that I do not think my friends should have to live "тихо."  I think they should have the same rights I have, to marry, to love, to kiss in public, to adopt children if they want.

 What to do if the majority disagrees?

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## Deborski

> What to do if the majority disagrees?

 In America, the majority's views are a-changing.  But since you seem opposed to American concepts of equality, maybe you should consider returning to Russia and raising your family there.

----------


## Doomer

> In America, the majority's views are a-changing.  But since you seem opposed to American concepts of equality, maybe you should consider returning to Russia and raising your family there.

 First of all in the US it's half and half
"Concepts of equality?" Please, don't make me laugh. Where were those "concepts" when whites burned blacks alive? And now where are these "concepts" when people look on every Muslim as on a terrorist. You want me to pull up "the scary facts" too? Or maybe you were talking about human rights? What about human rights of civilians in Iraq, shot down from American helicopter for nothing? And the person who told it to the world is now facing life in prison. That's awesome "equality", give me two. Maybe you wanna tell me that it is not what you meant and you disagree with the politics and so on, and I tell - it doesn't make you less American, so it is your fault too and it will be mine if I become American. And in eyes those Iraqi people every American is a murderer, good luck talking about "equality" to them. 
It's not "fashionable" to be a homophobe in the US now because it's a hot topic on the news, and it's very "fashionable" to tell: "look, people, I got gay friends, I'm awesome because of that and what do you got? Just old boring straights? Meh, you probably a homophobic dushbag". 
I'm not afraid to tell: I don't know if I got any gay friends and I don't know if all my friends are straight or they fancy goats, and frankly I don't wanna know. I don't fuck my friends, so I don't wanna know their sexual predilections. And I would appreciate if they keep it to themselves as all normal people do regardless of their sexuality
Would it make a difference to me if I would know? Maybe yes, we all got freedom of speech, so I won't shut up either. There is no such thing as equality and that's partially a good thing. I'm happily married and I really like to think that there is no somebody "equal" to the person I love. What you calling "equality" is called "tolerance". And tolerance is no better than aversion, because it's a big fat lie which makes you feel warm and fuzzy and you don't need to face the truth. It's like Valium for your consciousness which turns bitter truth to sweet hypocrisy.  
PS: Nice hypocritical concern though, I'll try to ignore your low blow

----------


## alexsms

> Когда у нас был закон, по которому геев в тюрьму сажали за сам факт нетрадиционных отношений, всё "западное сообщество" молчало в тряпочку. А теперь вдруг активизировались. То есть нажим на нас усилился, хотя режим смягчился. К чему бы это и в чём логика?

 Оно активизировалось, потому что в настоящее время Россия является участником Европейской конвенции по правам человека (с 1998 года). Логика заявлений таких представителей, как финский министр культуры, немецкий драматург (см. выше), в том, что являясь участником конвенции, Россия, по их мнению, обязана обеспечивать гражданам те права, которые там описаны.  
В советское время с СССР контакты носили другой характер. То, что в советском кодексе был такой закон являлось внутренним делом СССР (за что там сажали на самом деле уточнять не будем, я не смотрел закон, но формулировка вроде бы была довольно точная). 
Сегодня западные представители выражают свою позицию, потому что РФ является участником конвенции.

----------


## Deborski

> First of all in the US it's half and half
> "Concepts of equality?" Please, don't make me laugh. Where were those "concepts" when whites burned blacks alive? And now where are these "concepts" when people look on every Muslim as on a terrorist. You want me to pull up "the scary facts" too? Or maybe you were talking about human rights? What about human rights of civilians in Iraq, shot down from American helicopter for nothing? And the person who told it to the world is now facing life in prison. That's awesome "equality", give me two. Maybe you wanna tell me that it is not what you meant and you disagree with the politics and so on, and I tell - it doesn't make you less American, so it is your fault too and it will be mine if I become American. And in eyes those Iraqi people every American is a murderer, good luck talking about "equality" to them. 
> It's not "fashionable" to be a homophobe in the US now because it's a hot topic on the news, and it's very "fashionable" to tell: "look, people, I got gay friends, I'm awesome because of that and what do you got? Just old boring straights? Meh, you probably a homophobic dushbag". 
> I'm not afraid to tell: I don't know if I got any gay friends and I don't know if all my friends are straight or they fancy goats, and frankly I don't wanna know. I don't fuck my friends, so I don't wanna know their sexual predilections. And I would appreciate if they keep it to themselves as all normal people do regardless of their sexuality
> Would it make a difference to me if I would know? Maybe yes, we all got freedom of speech, so I won't shut up either. There is no such thing as equality and that's partially a good thing. I'm happily married and I really like to think that there is no somebody "equal" to the person I love. What you calling "equality" is called "tolerance". And tolerance is no better than aversion, because it's a big fat lie which makes you feel warm and fuzzy and you don't need to face the truth. It's like Valium for your consciousness which turns bitter truth to sweet hypocrisy.  
> PS: Nice hypocritical concern though, I'll try to ignore your low blow

 OK, Doomer.  It's obvious from your words that you LOVE America.  I apologize for my remark.  Clearly you are very happy living here. 
*backing away slowly*   ::

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## Юрка

> Today is a much different time in the west, just as it is a different time in your country.

 Ну всё, я понял в чём тут дело ("где собака порылась", как говорил Горбачёв). Ваше правительство постоянно обрабатывает своим гражданам мозги, чтобы они к нам не ездили и т.д. Сначала для этого использовались евреи. Делалось всё, чтобы вам было обидно за них. Помню первые телемосты "СССР-США". Там американцы задавали нам шокирующие вопросы типа "Почему вы не отпускаете евреев?! Отпустите их, мы их примем!". Но сейчас этот вариант отработан и исчерпал себя. Кто хотел, уже уехал из СССР, и тему евреев эффективно эксплуатировать уже невозможно. Поэтому отменили поправку Джексона - Вэника. Поэтому в вашем сознании наступили "другие времена". На самом деле времена те же, только роль евреев стали играть геи. Теперь вам обидно за геев. 
Короче говоря, в этой истории объектом пропаганды являетесь вы, а не мы. Вы уже написали, что не поедете в Россию. Это и было целью данной пропаганды. 
P.S. Дебора, Вы же журналист. Как же Вы попались на такие очевидные приёмы манипуляции сознанием?  ::   

> Логика заявлений таких представителей, как финский министр культуры...

 У финнов есть культура и даже министр? Ну хорошо, мы включим его в список Димы Яковлева (аналог списка Магницкого).

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## Doomer

> I apologize for my remark. :

 You "apologize" too much recently
I'm not sure what it means, coming from you

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## Deborski

> P.S. Дебора, Вы же журналист. Как же Вы попались на такие очевидные приёмы манипуляции сознанием?

 Yurka, do you think Russians are not being "manipulated"?  Do you think Putin has nothing but kindness and love for everyone in his heart and that the Russian Orthodox Church is not taking advantage of Russian homophobia to increase its influence and power? 
I find it interesting how many people drag every other issue but the kitchen sink, into this discussion!  Suddenly, it isn't just a discussion about gay rights, but it becomes a discussion about slavery, Jewish oppression, and every other evil America has committed over the past two hundred years!   
I have not brought up Stalin, or the "Gulag Archipelago" or the Cuban Missile Crisis, or Krushchev banging his shoes on the table at the UN. 
It's precisely because I am a journalist, and have an open mind and a deep desire to find the truth, that I was able to conquer my own personal homophobia and reach the conclusion that gay people are not "sick" or "evil" or "possessed by Satan."  Because of my open mind, I also love Russia even right now when it is not "fashionable" - as Doomer says - in the US. * I do not support a boycott of the Olympics in Sochi*, and I have stated this several times in this thread, and on other threads, and on Facebook.  I have even lost some of my American friends because I do not support the boycott or agree that Russians are "evil."   
On the other hand, I have been attacked personally several times now on this forum because of my statements supporting gay rights.  Someone from St. Petersburg, Russia, has even tried to hack into my husband's business website.  That is how much some people here seem to hate me, and apparently my husband too - even though he hasn't participated in this discussion.  What is next, death threats? 
I do not understand all the anger and hatred here.  I have made lots of posts about problems in the United States.  I am not blind to the problems in my own country.  It's just that I do not think allowing gay people to kiss in public, get married, and live openly and honestly is one of the problems.  I think that is one of the things my country is doing right!

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## Юрка

> Yurka, do you think Russians are not being "manipulated"? Do you think Putin has nothing but kindness and love for everyone in his heart and that the Russian Orthodox Church is not taking advantage of Russian homophobia to increase its influence and power?

 Я думаю, что государственная машина англосаксов сильнее подавляет своих граждан, чем наша государственная машина. Чтобы сравнить наши общества, достаточно посмотреть на столовые приборы. На Западе это нож и вилка (произошли от холодного оружия). У нас это ложка (произошла от лопаты). В Китае это палочки (произошли от палочек для письма). Если сравнить элиты, то на Западе это военная аристократия, в Китае бюрократическая аристократия. А теперь риторический вопрос: если в обществе главные военные, а едят оружием, то как там правят своим народом?
Что касается Путина и Православной церкви, то они действуют довольно искренне. Я не верующий, но принимаю многие аргументы Патриарха.   

> I find it interesting how many people drag every other issue but the kitchen sink, into this discussion! Suddenly, it isn't just a discussion about gay rights, but it becomes a discussion about slavery, Jewish oppression, and every other evil America has committed over the past two hundred years!

 Это неотъемлемая часть научного подхода, который я использую для анализа явлений. Явление нужно рассмотреть в развитии, с исторической точки зрения. Нужно выделить общее и сделать обобщение. Короче, я вспоминаю всё и вся не для того, чтобы уколоть Америку.   

> gay people are not "sick" or "evil" or "possessed by Satan."

 Согласен, они не больны и не одержимы сатаной. Но что это меняет? Я не был религиозен и моя "гомофобия" основана не на религиозных догмах. Кстати, и религиозные догмы основаны не на самих себе, а на чём-то другом. Может, на здравом смысле?  

> I do not understand all the anger and hatred here.

 Даю честное слово, что испытываю к Вам только симпатию, а не гнев или ненависть. Наши взгляды совпадают в гораздо большей степени, чем расходятся. Что касается атаки из Питера, то это не я. У меня и мотивов для этого, и навыков.  

> It's just that I do not think allowing gay people to kiss in public, get married, and live openly and honestly is one of the problems. I think that is one of the things my country is doing right!

 Если бы ваша страна считала это своим внутренним делом, то я бы не возражал. Мы бы приехали в США, посмотрели бы на эти безобразия, улыбнулись бы, покрутили бы пальцем у виска, сказали бы "чокнутые американцы" и всё. У нас и мысли не возникло бы "исправлять" и учить вас жить правильно. Но ведь ваша страна (и даже лично Вы) указывает нам, что и у нас должно быть точно так же. Вот что вызывает наше возмущение в этом споре. Скажу больше: мы понимаем, что всё это "цветочки" и прилюдия. А "ягодки" будут потом. Возможно в виде войны. Иначе зачем постоянно делать из нас врагов человечества. 
Когда Вы публикуете видео с избиением геев в России, то какое отношение это имеет к закону? Это явное насилие над человеком и заслуживает уголовного преследования. Но Вы почему-то всё смешиваете в одну "кашу". Если Вы журналист (то есть человек, профессионально работающий с информацией), то лучше отделять "мух от котлет".

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## Юрка

Оказывается в Европе есть ещё здравомыслящие люди. Ссылка на статью.   

> Известный латвийский политик лидер партии «За родной язык!» Владимир Линдерман, чьи выдержки из статьи, посвящённой «гей-революции» «NewsBalt» публиковал ранее, так прокомментировал вышеописанную историю в соцсети Facebook:  
> - Ещё раз повторю свой главный тезис: то, что мы наблюдаем, не является борьбой за права секс-меньшинств. Это лишь обёртка конфеты, а сама конфета - радикальное переустройство мира и ломка самой природы человека. И такой же радужной обёрткой являются гей-парады, а на самом деле новая мировая идеология будет внедряться и уже внедряется полицейскими и тоталитарными методами.

  

> Многодетный отец Ойген М., живущий в городе Хамм, попал в тюрьму за то, что его дочь Мелита пропустила 2 урока сексуального просвещения. Как выясняется, это далеко не единственный случай в Германии. Известно, что в другой школе 8 шестиклассников во время подобного урока потеряли сознание, увидев изображение половых органов.  
> Что же касается Мелиты, то когда она заявила, что не может этого выдерживать и вышла из класса, учительница затащила её обратно силой.

 Интересно, почему западную цивилизацию захватила эта волна "разврата"?
У меня есть культурологическая версия.  
Когда общество религиозно, оно верит в Бога. Если общество перестаёт быть религиозным, то возникает переходный и довольно проблемный период. Дело в том, что вчерашние религиозные фанатики не могут иметь свободное сознание. Им нужно верить во что-то другое с такой же фанатичной верой. Если не в Бога, то во что? В человека. 
Это уже было в России в начале 20-го века. Мы тогда перестали верить и занялись атеизмом, богоискательством, богостроительством (можно вспомнить Толстого), новым искусством и т.д. Большевики тоже обожествляли человека, говорили о том, что он должен покорить природу, изменить ход истории и т.д. Но сейчас мы успокоились. А американцы находятся чуть сзади в этом смысле (лет на 70-100). Признаком разложения религии у них является возникновение кучи религиозных сект. Преследование гомофобов является признаком новой "веры в человека". Так что американцы будут фаршировать нам мозги ещё лет сто.  ::

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## Lampada

> Оказывается в Европе есть ещё здравомыслящие люди. Ссылка на статью.  
> Интересно, почему западную цивилизацию захватила эта волна "разврата"?
> У меня есть культурологическая версия.  
> Когда общество религиозно, оно верит в Бога. Если общество перестаёт быть религиозным, то возникает переходный и довольно проблемный период. Дело в том, что вчерашние религиозные фанатики не могут иметь свободное сознание. Им нужно верить во что-то другое с такой же фанатичной верой. Если не в Бога, то во что? В человека. 
> Это уже было в России в начале 20-го века. Мы тогда перестали верить и занялись атеизмом, богоискательством, богостроительством (можно вспомнить Толстого), новым искусством и т.д. Большевики тоже обожествляли человека, говорили о том, что он должен покорить природу, изменить ход истории и т.д. Но сейчас мы успокоились. А американцы находятся чуть сзади в этом смысле (лет на 70-100). Признаком разложения религии у них является возникновение кучи религиозных сект. Преследование гомофобов является признаком новой "веры в человека". Так что американцы будут ..... нам мозги ещё лет сто.

 Понятно, живём по принципу: "_Бей своих, чтобы чужие боялись". Поговорки _

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## Deborski

> *Yurka:*  Даю честное слово, что испытываю к Вам только симпатию, а не гнев или ненависть. Наши взгляды совпадают в гораздо большей степени, чем расходятся. Что касается атаки из Питера, то это не я. У меня и мотивов для этого, и навыков.

 Вот это главное, что "наши взгляды совпадают в гораздо большей степени, чем расходятся." 
Как касается человек в Санкт-Петербурге, я не имею ввиду, что это было Вы.  На самом деле, я знаю, кто взломал сайт моего мужа.   

> *Yurka: * Если бы ваша страна считала это своим внутренним делом, то я бы не возражал. Мы бы приехали в США, посмотрели бы на эти безобразия, улыбнулись бы, покрутили бы пальцем у виска, сказали бы "чокнутые американцы" и всё. У нас и мысли не возникло бы "исправлять" и учить вас жить правильно. Но ведь ваша страна (и даже лично Вы) указывает нам, что и у нас должно быть точно так же. Вот что вызывает наше возмущение в этом споре. Скажу больше: мы понимаем, что всё это "цветочки" и прилюдия. А "ягодки" будут потом. Возможно в виде войны. Иначе зачем постоянно делать из нас врагов человечества. 
> Когда Вы публикуете видео с избиением геев в России, то какое отношение это имеет к закону? Это явное насилие над человеком и заслуживает уголовного преследования. Но Вы почему-то всё смешиваете в одну "кашу". Если Вы журналист (то есть человек, профессионально работающий с информацией), то лучше отделять "мух от котлет".

 I think a lot of reason for all the outrage in the west is that your new laws happen to coincide with the time when our athletes are preparing for the Olympics in Sochi.  Many of our athletes are gay - especially figure skaters.  People are, understandably, worried about the safety of our gay athletes, spectators, and journalists.  If this had happened at a less auspicious time, outrage might not have been as high as it is now.  There would still be anger and disappointment with Russia, though, just as there is anger with other countries which persecute groups of people, such as in the Middle East, Africa, etc.  The anger is the same when persecution happens in our own countries as well!  When gays, blacks, women, old veterans of war or other innocent and defenseless people are beaten, attacked and murdered, we become outraged about that wherever it happens, and especially when it happens in our own country.  In fact, most Americans are far more outraged about what happens here at home than what happens in Russia, because most Americans do not care about Russia. 
In fact, in the city where I live, people are far more outraged about THIS, than they are about Russia:  http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/23/us/wor...ath/index.html 
As for your comment about "separating the wheat from the chaff" - I have not seen any evidence that the people in the videos were arrested.  Can you show me where the guys in the black t-shirts that say "by the word of GOD" were arrested?  I searched and did not see anything.  On the other hand, the gay protesters - who were not hurting anyone - WERE arrested, and the crowd cheered for the police and the people who were beating the gay protesters.  As a journalist, I absolutely do not believe in covering up the bad for the sake of making abusers look good.  When abuse is silenced for the sake of the abuser's image and reputation, and when the abuse is denied by people who want desperately to believe in the abuser's image and reputation - that is when a journalist is duty-bound to expose the evil!  I think that you want to see Russia as "good and right" and that is why you hate seeing all these pictures of abuse circulating.  It seems that some people are more angry that the photos are hurting Russia's reputation, than they are angry about the victims in the photos who were beaten and persecuted.   

> *Yurka:*  Что касается Путина и Православной церкви, то они действуют довольно искренне. Я не верующий, но принимаю многие аргументы Патриарха.

 I think it is naive of you to believe that Putin and the ROC are "sincere."  I certainly do not believe that Obama is "sincere."  I think he is a fine speaker and orator, and that he has made some good decisions, but that he also perpetuates our policy of global military aggression, which I do not support.  As for churches, historically they want power and control.  The ROC is no different.

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## Deborski

> Russian sport hides its orientation | Russia Beyond The Headlines

 I thought that this Russian-authored article about why gay athletes do not come out publicly was well balanced in its coverage.  Kudos to the writer.   

> Sports psychologist Galina Zavyalova said that gay athletes fear a negative reaction from fans more than from fellow competitors. 
> Alexander Shprygin, president of the All-Russian Association of Soccer Fans, said that these fears are well-founded. “The fan community cannot accept this and can never understand it. In Russian terms, sportsmen are never able to ‘come out,’ as this would lead directly to the end of their careers.”  
> There is more at risk for Russia’s gay and lesbian athletes than the love of fans, however. Members of national teams, even reserve members, receive a significant amount of funding from the federal and regional budgets. Coming out would mean a loss of income as well as coaching and training support.

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## Deborski

So, here is a question in keeping with the original topic:  Assuming that there is no boycott, how does everyone think that the Sochi Olympics are going to unfold?   
Considering what has been happening at Moscow's World Athletics Championships, I think it's foreseeable that a lot of visitors in Sochi are going to openly protest Russia's new laws.  The majority of people will probably not want to cause any trouble, but judging from the reaction in Europe and America right now, I don't think its a stretch to say that a large number of people probably will want to demonstrate support for gay rights.  And by this, I do not mean that they will do anything outwardly harmful, but there is likely to be a lot of rainbow flags, pro-gay t-shirts, and other similar displays of "propaganda."  Of course, there may even be a few (and I would not personally approve of this!) who would try to vandalize Russian buildings, by spraying them with graffiti for example.   
How is Russia going to respond to this?  Will Russia arrest or expel any foreigners who fly rainbow flags or otherwise spread "gay propaganda"?  Or will Russia try to ignore it in an effort to avoid a huge scandal? 
What are your thoughts, everyone?

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## maxmixiv

Думаю, кто очень сильно хочет скандала, тот всегда его устроит. Но футболки и флажки не прокатят! Ибо никакая это не пропаганда. Иностранные вандалы - это вообще дикость какая-то, в голове не укладывается. Нарушителям придётся придумать что-то другое. Хотелось бы только, чтобы соревнования прошли нормально. Люди ждут 4 года и платят большие деньги, не говоря уже о спортсменах, которые света белого не видят - пашут до изнеможения, чтобы выступить достойно.

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## Юрка

> How is Russia going to respond to this? Will Russia arrest or expel any foreigners who fly rainbow flags or otherwise spread "gay propaganda"? Or will Russia try to ignore it in an effort to avoid a huge scandal?

 Такие иностранцы будут приглашены на беседу в монастыри русской православной церкви, а через несколько дней выступят с покаянной речью и заявят о своём желании принять православие.  ::  
А вообще я не думаю, что в Сочи будет много политических акций. В Москве в 1980-ом году таких акций почти не было (я слышал только об одной, когда в автобусе иностранцы развернули какие-то плакаты). Нас боятся, так как воспринимают как полицейской государство. И в данном случае наш имидж сработает на нас.
Кроме того мы будем контролировать основную телевизионную картинку. Поэтому в кадр такие флаги не попадут, и мы этого не увидим в спортивных передачах во время трансляции соревнований.
Иностранцы конечно будут снимать в певую очередь такие флага и скандалы (особенно, если про спорт им снимать будет неинтересно из-за отсутствия медалей у спортсменов их страны). Мы тут можем сказать лишь "нехай клевещут" (как в известном анекдоте).   

> On the other hand, the gay protesters - who were not hurting anyone - WERE arrested

 Что касается наших геев, то я слышал о том, что они не едины во мнении. Значительная часть считает деятельность некоторых активистов вредной их сообществу. Но Америка платит многим нашим организациям за аресты, побои, попадание в кадр и т.д. Поэтому я не удивлён, что Вы знаете об арестах гей-активистов и не знаете об арестах остальных участников уличных беспорядков.  

> In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are. I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change. My thinking evolved. Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

 Россия проходит свой путь по изменению своего отношения к геям. Ещё недавно у нас была уголовная статья, а сейчас о гейх шутят в юмористических передачах типа "Comedy Club" на канале TNT. Вот так, через шутки, и меняется общественное мнение. Но на это нужно время. Америка оказывает медвежью услугу гей-сообществу, фактически останавливая своим вторжением этот естественный процесс эволюции общественного мнения. Я бы назвал это вторжение глупым, если бы верил в то, что Америка хочет помочь геям. На самом деле она их использует. С точки зрения политики это не глупо, а весьма рационально.

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## Lampada

> ... Но Америка платит многим нашим организациям за аресты, побои, попадание в кадр и т.д. ...

 А можно ссылочку на инфо про платежи?

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## Eledhwen

Я вернулся...  *Лампада*, пожалуйста: «Заграница им поможет», Специальный корреспондент. «Болото». Я не помню где там именно, но суть не меняется.  *Юрка*, держи «краба». ::  А то мне не всегда слов хватает. Надеюсь, мои предыдущие сообщения были поняты правильно.

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## Eledhwen

*А теперь опрос, чтобы, наконец расставить точки над “i”:* Лесбиянки, геи, бисексуалы и трансгендеры (ЛГБТ) — это норма?Если бы у вас была возможность выбирать — вы изменили бы свой пол?Следует ли давать ЛГБТ дополнительные права?Следует ли продвигать ЛГБТ-сообщества?Допустимо ли распространение информации, направленное на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок?Оказывают ли влияние ЛГБТ-сообщества на политическую жизнь страны?Оказывают ли влияние ЛГБТ-сообщества на культурную жизнь страны?Допустимы ли однополые браки?Допустимо ли воспитание ребенка родителями одного пола?Может ли ЛГБТ нести угрозу обществу? Почему?

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## Eledhwen

1. Нет, это отклонение от нормы.
2. Нет.
3. Нет, достаточно основных, предусмотренных законом.
4. Нет, как отклонение от нормы.
5. Абсолютно недопустимо.
6. В зависимости от политической и экономической ситуации в стране.
7. Да, хоть и в зависимости от социальной и экономической ситуации в стране.
8. Нет.
9. Абсолютно недопустимо.
10. Да, потому что способно подорвать социальную, национальную, демографическую и политическую обстановку в стране.

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## Eledhwen

> I think a lot of reason for all the outrage in the west is that your new laws happen to coincide with the time when our athletes are preparing for the Olympics in Sochi. Many of our athletes are gay - especially figure skaters. People are, understandably, worried about the safety of our gay athletes, spectators, and journalists. If this had happened at a less auspicious time, outrage might not have been as high as it is now.

 Для начала — вопрос: а все эти люди — они приезжают чтобы соревноваться в спортивных состязаниях или выяснять, кто какого пола?
(Вытерто. Л.) Вся эта история с ЛГБТ в России была намеренно приурочена к Олимпиаде. Это проста привязка к громкому событию, в надежде, что так получится устроить столь же громкий скандал, за которым последуют действия (о чём писал Юрка).   

> How is Russia going to respond to this? Will Russia arrest or expel any foreigners who fly rainbow flags or otherwise spread "gay propaganda"? Or will Russia try to ignore it in an effort to avoid a huge scandal?

 Когда иностранцы приезжают в _нашу_ страну — они обязаны уважать наши законы. Если нет — их ждет наказание согласно закону. Скандала не будет. Если кто-то почувствует себя вседозволенным — он понесет наказание за содеянное преступление.   

> Considering what has been happening at Moscow's World Athletics Championships, I think it's foreseeable that a lot of visitors in Sochi are going to openly protest Russia's new laws.

 А что было на чемпионате мира по лёгкой атлетике? Какой-то скандал? Я не слышал, хотя новости читаю каждый день из разных источников, в том числе и из зарубежных. 
Дебора, (Вытерто. Л.) Я не понимаю: как можно протестовать против закона в _чужой стране_, который нацелен _на укрепление её суверенитета, социальной, демографической и нацинальной безопасности_? Особенно в такой как Россия.
Из твоих слов поучается, что можно приехать в Россию и делать всё что заблагорассудится, не взирая на законы и культуру.(Вытерто. Л.)

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## Deborski

> Дебора, (Вытерто. Л.) Я не понимаю: как можно протестовать против закона в _чужой стране_, который нацелен _на укрепление её суверенитета, социальной, демографической и нацинальной безопасности_? Особенно в такой как Россия.
> Из твоих слов поучается, что можно приехать в Россию и делать всё что заблагорассудится, не взирая на законы и культуру.(Вытерто. Л.)

 Translation services can make understanding difficult.  If you had properly understood my original post, you would have seen that I expressly do NOT support any kinds of vandalism or disrespect by tourists in Russia. * In fact I specifically stated that I do not support it.* 
So deducting my reputation points with this message _"Крайне непозволительное высказывание и призыв о том, что в России приезжему можно делать всё, не взирая на закон, общество и культурy"_ was just another personal attack, like many I have received since I posted my opinions on this thread.  My husband's business website was also hacked, just because someone in St. Petersburg disagrees with me.   
It is getting far too personal here and I see no reason to continue in this discussion.  I accept that the majority of Russians do not agree with me.  But I will add that all these personal attacks, insults, threats and hacking of my husband's business site are not exactly making me feel like Russia is a "safe" place to travel to right now.  Любовь сильнее ненависти.

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## maxmixiv

> But I will add that all these personal attacks, insults, threats and hacking of my husband's business site are not exactly making me feel like Russia is a "safe" place to travel to right now.

 No, and it has never been. Still, it is safer now than in 1990. 
Sites are being hacked ONLY for money, IMHO  ::

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## Deborski

> No, and it has never been. Still, it is safer now than in 1990. 
> Sites are being hacked ONLY for money, IMHO

 My husband's site was hacked as a direct response to my comments in this thread and I know who the hacker was.  He has been reported and dealt with. 
I felt very safe living in Russia in 1990.  But back then, Russian men did not insult me, attack me, call me a "cow" and other worse things.  If that is how they behave on the internet, it makes me wonder what exactly they would do if they met me in person.  I am trying very hard not to judge a whole country by the way some people are acting, because I hate it when people do that to me and my country.  Thankfully, I have enough positive experiences with Russia to know that not all people are this nasty all the time, and that most people can disagree civilly without immediately reaching for the knife! 
I am amazed at how volatile this subject is and how quickly people whom I considered "friends" just a few short weeks ago, are suddenly cursing and attacking me just because we disagree on one subject.  It is as if everything I have said and done over the past two years on this site doesn't matter.  As if all the times that I helped people with their English, and they helped me with my Russian, are without any meaning.  All the video chats I set up, all the times I encouraged my Russian friends, everything I have said and done no longer has any value because I support gay rights.  I do not even support a boycott of the Games, nor do I support people openly disrespecting Russia, nor intentionally breaking laws there.  But from the way some people are reacting, one would think that I had personally rolled into Red Square and painted rainbow graffiti on the Kremlin walls or something! 
I am deeply saddened.  I try to stand up for Russia with my American friends, which is not an easy thing right now.  I have not seen anti-Russian sentiment this high since the 1980's!  So I am caught between that proverbial "rock and a hard place" - not a fun place to be. 
I have no more to add on the gay rights subject.  Clearly it is not a topic which I can discuss safely here.

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## Eledhwen

(Deleted. L.)  *Лампада* и *Дебора* опрос я создал в первую очередь для вас. Уделите, пожалуйста, ему немного времени.  *Дебора*, я процитирую слова Юрия: _Если бы ваша страна считала это своим внутренним делом, то я бы не возражал. Мы бы приехали в США, посмотрели бы на эти безобразия, улыбнулись бы, покрутили бы пальцем у виска, сказали бы «чокнутые американцы» и всё. У нас и мысли не возникло бы «исправлять» и учить вас жить правильно. Но ведь ваша страна (и даже лично Вы) указывает нам, что и у нас должно быть точно так же. Вот что вызывает наше возмущение в этом споре. Скажу больше: мы понимаем, что всё это «цветочки» и прилюдия. А «ягодки» будут потом. Возможно в виде войны._
Таким образом, _уже двое_ человек сказали тебе, что не надо лезть в Россию со своей ЛГБТ-пропагандой. У России сработал инстинкт самосохранения нации, и ответ будет жестким, если кто-то посмеет причинить ей вред. 
Гею или лесбиянке можно безопасно и спокойно жить в России, но продвигать эти ценности здесь не дадут. 
Я повторю свой вопрос: а все эти люди (спортсмены, зрители, журналисты) — они приезжают чтобы соревноваться в спортивных состязаниях или выяснять, кто какого пола?

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## Deborski

И я тоже повторяю то, что я сказала:   

> Translation services can make understanding difficult. If you had properly understood my original post, you would have seen that I expressly do NOT support any kinds of vandalism or disrespect by tourists in Russia. In fact I specifically stated that I do not support it. 
> So deducting my reputation points with this message "Крайне непозволительное высказывание и призыв о том, что в России приезжему можно делать всё, не взирая на закон, общество и культурy" was just another personal attack, like many I have received since I posted my opinions on this thread. My husband's business website was also hacked, just because someone in St. Petersburg disagrees with me. 
> It is getting far too personal here and I see no reason to continue in this discussion. I accept that the majority of Russians do not agree with me. But I will add that all these personal attacks, insults, threats and hacking of my husband's business site are not exactly making me feel like Russia is a "safe" place to travel to right now. 
> Любовь сильнее ненависти.

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## Юрка

> Любовь сильнее ненависти.

 1. Если говорить о нашем отношении к геям, то слово "ненависть" не подходит. Подходит слово "целомудрие".
2. Если говорить о дискомфорте меньшинства (геев) в нашем обществе, то мне не понятно, почему его нужно заменить на дискомфорт большинства (гетеросексуалов). 
3. Мне не понятно, почему мы ответственны за то, что геи испытывают дискомфорт от бесплодности их союзов.

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## Lampada

> 1. Если говорить о нашем отношении к геям, то слово "ненависть" не подходит. Подходит слово "целомудрие".
> 2. Если говорить о дискомфорте меньшинства (геев) в нашем обществе, то мне не понятно, почему его нужно заменить на дискомфорт большинства (гетеросексуалов). 
> 3. Мне не понятно, почему мы ответственны за то, что геи испытывают дискомфорт от бесплодности их союзов.

 Твоё отношение к геям называется "целомудрие", т.е. целомудренное?  Интересно.  _Мне непонятно..._  Здесь_ непонятно_ - одно слово.

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## Deborski

> 1. Если говорить о нашем отношении к геям, то слово "ненависть" не подходит. Подходит слово "целомудрие".
> 2. Если говорить о дискомфорте меньшинства (геев) в нашем обществе, то мне не понятно, почему его нужно заменить на дискомфорт большинства (гетеросексуалов). 
> 3. Мне не понятно, почему мы ответственны за то, что геи испытывают дискомфорт от бесплодности их союзов.

 My comment was to Eledhwen - because he sounds like he is full of hate.  As I already said, I have no further comment regarding the gay rights issue.  This topic has become too volatile, and too many personal accusations and attacks have been made.  I am done with it.

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## maxmixiv

> 1. Если говорить о нашем отношении к геям, то слово "ненависть" не подходит. Подходит слово "целомудрие".

 Ну "наши" бывают разные, и отношение у каждого своё. Я бы сказал "настороженность", и опасение в один прекрасный день проснуться в мире, перевёрнутом с ног на голову.

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## Deborski

I will add one more thing.  Perhaps Russians should be less concerned about gay protesters at the Games in Sochi, and more worried about Chechen terrorists. 
Saudi Arabia is threatening Russia over its support of Syria's government:  Saudis offer Russia secret oil deal if it drops Syria - Telegraph 
According to this article, Saudi Arabia is basically telling Russia "Stop helping Assad and we will give you oil.  Keep helping Assad, and we will tell our Chechen friends to terrorize your citizens during the Winter Olympics in Sochi." 
Excerpt:     

> As-Safir said Prince Bandar pledged to safeguard Russia’s naval base in Syria if the Assad regime is toppled, but he also hinted at Chechen terrorist attacks on Russia’s Winter Olympics in Sochi if there is no accord. “I can give you a guarantee to protect the Winter Olympics next year. The Chechen groups that threaten the security of the games are controlled by us,” he allegedly said.

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## Lampada

> Ну "наши" бывают разные, и отношение у каждого своё. Я бы сказал "настороженность", и опасение в один прекрасный день проснуться в мире, перевёрнутом с ног на голову.

 Значит эти страны, закрашенные красным, синим, голубым, все перевёрнутые верх ногами? Что-то не верится. По крайней мере, то, что я вижу вокруг вполне нормальное. 
"_Sixteen countries now have the freedom to marry for same-sex couples nationwide (Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, Norway, Sweden, Portugal, Iceland, Argentina, Denmark, France, Brazil, Uruguay, and New Zealand - plus Britain, which has passed a law that has not yet taken effect), while two others have regional or court-directed provisions enabling same-sex couples to share in the freedom to marry (Mexico and the United States). Many other countries provide some protections for such couples. As more and more countries and parts of the United States win the freedom to marry, we see that families are helped, and communities and countries made stronger, by protecting all loving committed couples. Click the map to enlargen it. (Last Updated: August 2013)" http://www.freedomtomarry.org/landsc.../international_

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## Throbert McGee

> Оказывается в Европе есть ещё здравомыслящие люди. Ссылка на статью.

  

> (from the article by Linderman) Многодетный отец Ойген М., живущий в городе Хамм, попал в тюрьму за то, что его дочь Мелита пропустила 2 урока сексуального просвещения. Как выясняется, это далеко не единственный случай в Германии. Известно, что в другой школе* 8 шестиклассников* во время подобного урока *потеряли сознание, увидев изображение половых органов*.

  ::   
What, was there a carbon-monoxide leak from the school's heating system? Were the children using large quantities of heroin and vodka? Did the "изображение половых органов" consist of video clips from Japanese "tentacle porn" anime, instead of anatomical illustrations from standard biology texts?     
Seriously, I'm having trouble understanding how *EIGHT children passed out* after seeing pictures of human genitals. I mean, it's possible that ONE child might have a hysterical fainting reaction to nakedness because his parents happened to be crazy religious fanatics and they used to burn him with cigarettes if he touched himself "down there" -- but EIGHT children in the same school? In my experience, *the normal response of sixth-graders to pictures of sex organs is loud, howling laughter, not loss of consciousness*. 
I think there must be more to the story than Mr. Linderman says. Could it be that the children were only PRETENDING to faint, for reasons known to themselves?  
But, at any rate, I think that: 
(a) "sex-ed" lessons showing pictures of the sex organs are, in general, suitable for шестиклассники -- who, I assume, are about 11 years old, and therefore near the age of puberty (when their own sex organs will begin doing "strange" things); however 
(b) parents should be able to keep their children out of sex-ed lessons -- if the above story is true, Melita's teacher acted wrongly by forcing the girl back into the classroom    

> Признаком разложения религии у [американцев] является возникновение кучи религиозных сект.

 Um.... we had "heaps" of religious sects *even in colonial times, before the US existed*. We've also had at least three or four major "Revivals" in American Protestantism, and we invented dozens of new religions in the 19th century -- most of which have disappeared, although the Jehovah's Witnesses are still around, while the Mormon Church has been extremely successful in spite of the very obvious evidence that Joseph Smith was a "bullshit artist." So it seems strange to say that the large number of sects is a symptom of religion in decline, at least in the American context.

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## Throbert McGee

> А теперь опрос, чтобы, наконец расставить точки над “i”:

  

> (1) Лесбиянки, геи, бисексуалы и трансгендеры (ЛГБТ) — это норма?

 Хмммм... да, или нет, смотря как слово "норма" определяется.   

> (2) Если бы у вас была возможность выбирать — вы изменили бы свой пол?

 Нет! Я очень рад о том что я родился мальчиком и (благодаря какому-то неизвестному влиянию) оказался гомосексуальным мужчиной. ОДНАКО, если бы в "загробной приёмной" Ангел Реинкарнации подошел бы к мне с вопросом, "Ты хочешь родиться девочкой в следующей жизни?", я ответил бы, "Давай-ка, почему нет, интересно попробовать, мне будет новое..." (А если б этот Ангел спросил, "Ты хочешь родиться гетеросексуальным мальчиком?", тут я ответил бы тоже:  "Давай-ка, почему нет, интересно попробовать, мне будет новое...")   

> (3) Следует ли давать ЛГБТ дополнительные права?

 Словосочтение "давать дополнительные права" как-то не переводится на пиндостанский, извините... ("We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights")[/QUOTE]   

> (4) Следует ли продвигать ЛГБТ-сообщества?

 Следует ЛГБТ-ским людям продвигать свои сообщества -- своими деньги, из своих карманов. Все остальные люди не обязаны продвигать ЛГБТ-сообщества.   

> (5) Допустимо ли распространение информации, направленное на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок?

 Что значит "направленное на формирование нетрадиционных сексуальных установок"?     

> (6) Оказывают ли влияние ЛГБТ-сообщества на политическую жизнь страны?

 Да -- иногда к лучшему. (But I admit that LGBT politics as they developed in the States have often been foolish or counterproductive.)   

> (7) Оказывают ли влияние ЛГБТ-сообщества на культурную жизнь страны?

    _ 
"Гипотенос, греческий бог прямого угла"_ -- oh, sorry, my mistake, this ISN'T an ancient pagan statue. It's actually_ "Jesus, My Super-Sexy Lord and Savior"_ by Michelangelo. (The golden тряпочка was NOT part of Michelangelo's original design -- it was added later.)   

> ( Допустимы ли однополые браки?

 Государство должно принять законы, признающие однополые союзы/партнерства. А будет лучше всем, по-моему, если в законе такие союзы не назовутся "браками".    

> (9) Допустимо ли воспитание ребенка родителями одного пола?

 Почему нет? Ведь 99% геев и лесбиянок были воспитаны гетеросексуальными родителями -- а всё-таки оказались "нетрадиционными". HOWEVER, as I wrote in another thread back in January, I don't think it's a good idea to allow gay adoptions in Russia UNLESS and UNTIL Russian society is willing to speak openly about the fact that some heterosexual parents have sisters or brothers who are gay, which means that a certain percentage of Russian children have gay aunts and uncles. If the existence of these "non-traditional" aunts and uncles is something that absolutely must be kept Top Secret (like nuclear launch codes!), then how can a society possibly have a rational argument about the pluses and minuses of gay parents raising children?   

> (10) Может ли ЛГБТ нести угрозу обществу? Почему?

 Да -- но, пожалуй, гетеросексуальный развод и внебрачные беременности несут угрозу куда больше и хуже. (And does Russia have laws against telling minors that getting drunk is fun and normal?)

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## alexsms

> Нет! Я очень рад о том что я родился мальчиком и (благодаря какому-то неизвестному влиянию) оказался гомосексуальным мужчиной

 at last! a first official cumin' out here?

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## Lampada

> at last! a first official cumin' out here?

 It was never a secret here.

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## Lampada

Bitter Scalia Leaves U.S. : The New Yorker  ::   
WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) 
" Justice Antonin Scalia dropped a bombshell on the Supreme Court today, announcing his decision to resign from the Court “effective immediately” and leave the United States forever. 
Calling this week “by far the worst week of my life,” Justice Scalia lashed out at his fellow-Justices and the nation, saying, “I don’t want to live in a sick, sick country that thinks the way this country apparently thinks.”
Justice Scalia said that he had considered fleeing to Canada, “but they not only have gay marriage but also national health care, which is almost as evil.”  *He said the fact that nations around the world recognizing same-sex marriage are “falling like deviant dominoes” would not deter him from leaving the United States: “There are plenty of other countries that still feel the way I do. I’ll move to Iran if I have to.”* 
Throwing off his robe in a dramatic gesture, Justice Scalia reserved his harshest parting shot for his fellow-Justices, screaming, “Damn you! Damn each and every one of you to hell! You call yourself judges? That’s a good one. You’re nothing but animals!”
Breathing heavily after his tirade, he turned to Justice Clarence Thomas and said, “Except you, Clarence. Are you coming with me?”
Justice Thomas said nothing in reply."

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## alexsms

> It was never a secret here.

 got it, i have misunderstood the "queer as a three-dollar-bill" phrase. I thought it meant the opposite.

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## Юрка

> I am done with it.

 Да, я понял это. Достали мы Вас окончательно.  ::   

> and we will tell our Chechen friends to terrorize your citizens during the Winter Olympics in Sochi.

 Даже не знаю, что опаснее: угрозы саудовских террористов или угроза геев раскрасить всё цветами радуги.  :: 
Но характерный факт: геи и террористы каким-то чудесным образом оказались в одной компании. Один умный человек сказал: "не важно, что делать, важно с кем". 
Кстати, Рамзан Кадыров тоже обещал нам обеспечить безопасность в Сочи на Олимпиаде.   

> Seriously, I'm having trouble understanding how *EIGHT children passed out* after seeing pictures of human genitals.

 Смотря как показать сей предмет. Видимо, порнуха была ещё та. Я помню себя: порнографию я увидел впервые в 17-18 лет. До этого была только лёгкая эротика. Так вот, от порнухи мне тогда поплохело. Не затошнило, но что-то похожее. Так что, похоже на то, что к немцам мы в культурном смысле ближе, чем к американцам. Европа всё же.  

> we had "heaps" of religious sects *even in colonial times, before the US existed*.

 Возможно, что разложение религии началось уже тогда, ведь это не секундное дело, а исторический процесс. Три-четыре века для него - это не много. А то, что Европа вытесняла секты со своей территории, говорит о том, что Европа чувствовала угрозу для себя (для своей религии) уже тогда.

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## Deborski

> *Юрка: *  
> Да, я понял это. Достали мы Вас окончательно.

 It isn't that you "got" to me.  It's that I have been ganged up on and personally attacked more than anyone else in this thread!  I decided that I do not wish to discuss this topic with people who cannot reason and can only throw insults and do nasty things like hack my husband's website or encourage a mass exodus from this site - just because they disagree.  I have said all I need to say about gay rights anyway.  If you really "достали меня окончательно" I would have left this forum altogether.  Instead, I have simply moved on to less volatile topics.  Amazingly - the war in Syria is LESS volatile than this discussion about gay rights!  I guess it is easier to talk about thousands of people being gassed to death, bombed and murdered - than to discuss two men kissing in public.  Sad commentary on humanity, if you ask me.   

> Но характерный факт: геи и террористы каким-то чудесным образом оказались в одной компании.

 This is one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever seen.  Where in hell do you come up with these crazy ideas??? _ Господи...._

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## alexsms

> It isn't that you "got" to me.  It's that I have been ganged up on and personally attacked more than anyone else in this thread!_.._

 нормально всё-на, сейчас выпьем, добавим и разойдёмся...

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## alexsms

> ... encourage a mass exodus from this site _...._

 Я, как герой фильма Брат-2: "Мне здесь нравится, я хочу здесь жить! Я тут останусь!"

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## Deborski

> нормально всё-на, сейчас выпьем, добавим и разойдёмся...

 Ну, да, на данный момент всё спокойно на Дону... слава богу...

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## alexsms

> Ну, да, на данный момент всё спокойно на Дону... слава богу...

 вот. это по-нашему, знали мы, что ты настоящая казачка.

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## Throbert McGee

> Возможно, что разложение религии началось уже тогда, ведь это не секундное дело, а исторический процесс. Три-четыре века для него - это не много. А то, что Европа вытесняла секты со своей территории, говорит о том, что Европа чувствовала угрозу для себя (для своей религии) уже тогда.

 "Religions are kept alive by heresies, which are really sudden explosions of faith. Dead religions do not produce them." Gerald Brenan (1894-1987) British writer  
On the other hand, to the extent that a SPECIFIC religion is associated with national identity, and exists as an "established" church, then perhaps it's true that the appearance of new sects is a "threat." If Russian Orthodox Christians leave the church and embrace American-style Pentecostalism (a Protestant sect), then to some Russians this must be proof that religion is "decaying" in the Russian soul -- and a "net loss" for Russian identity. 
Whereas Brenan would take the conversion to a non-Orthodox variety of Christianity as proof that some Russians continue to be intensely interested in religion, and in having a relationship with God/Jesus. 
PS. Regarding the German children who fainted during sex-ed class -- perhaps you're right. It's difficult to be sure because neither of us actually knows what the pictures looked like, and whether they were truly of a pornographic character.  But, incidentally, the first name of the father was given *Оймен* as in the story. And after thinking about it, I realized that this is actually the Cyrillic form of *Öğmen*-- a Turkish name. To me, this puts a different spin on the story; there was a "cultural clash" between the German school administrators and _a non-German immigrant family._

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## Deborski

Russia Raids Gay People's Homes | Advocate.com  _From this article:_   

> A notice allegedly from the government says any person who suspects that a neighbor or tenant disseminates "homosexual propaganda" should contact the police immediately. 
> "Increase your vigilance when you talk to your neighbors, when you are checking your mail and in elevators," the notice says, according to a translation. "You can easily become a target of homosexual propaganda. There is one step from being homosexual and to start propaganda of homosexualism and molesting decent people." 
> Russian prosecutors reportedly raided the home of activist and lawyer Nikolai Alexeyev. According to Reuters, officials ransacked Alexeyev's home and removed several pieces of electronic equipment.

 Has anyone heard of or seen this notice?  Honest answers, please.

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## DrBaldhead

> Has anyone heard of or seen this notice? Honest answers, please.

 I've heard of it. That Nikolai Alexeev you speak of is one of the main activists of the gay movement in Russia. He is well known for leading several gay pride organizations and struggling for the legalization of all kinds of gay rights - propaganda, marriage and, unfortunately, much more. 
It should be noted that this guy is not just an ordinary deviant. He was taken by the police several times and even tried to sue Russian Federation in ECtHR. Almost every month he tries (and fails) to organize a gay parade in different cities across Russia thus making people quite angry. Even other gay organizations dislike him sometimes because his activities tend to cause more hate rather than admiration towards the sexual minorities. He is the type who struggles for the idea more than for people.
I would say even more - most of the modern "antigay" laws are actually the consequences of his actions too.
As for me, I don't like him. I wouldn't mind if this crazy man was removed from the society - it could make the life of both normal and deviant people much more peaceful.

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## Lampada

Политическое убежище для российских геев в США  
Comments!    ::

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## Юрка

Раньше наши люди, чтобы уехать, прикидывались евреями (доставали справки из синагоги?). Теперь будут прикидываться геями. Поди проверь.  ::

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## Lampada

> Раньше наши люди, чтобы уехать, прикидывались евреями (доставали справки из синагоги?). Теперь будут прикидываться геями. Поди проверь.

 Отправляйте всех своих геев и не заморачивайтесь! Пусть себе спокойно делают, что хотят, целуются, женятся, усыновляют детей, рисуют картины, пишут музыку, танцуют и т.д. Представляю, как их будет радостно встречать в Америке ЛГБТ-сообщество.
Этот антигейский закон может оказаться благословлением для всех, особенно для гомофобов.     _ "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" 
"The New Colossus" is a sonnet by American poet Emma Lazarus (1849–87), written in 1883. In 1903, the poem was engraved on a bronze plaque and mounted inside the lower level of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty._

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## Paul G.

(Deleted. L.)
В Америке в большей части штатов законодательно *запрещены* браки между геями, а в некоторых не только всякая пропаганда такого образа жизни, но и присутствует уголовная ответственность за половые контакты с лицом другого пола (что в России отменено больше 20 лет назад). Калифорния, которая является "землей обетованной" для геев - банкрот. А геям предлагается ехать в США, где их будут дискриминировать и поселять в гетто, ведь только там они могут реализовать свои права человека. 
Особенно показательно в этом плане выступление эталонного полезного идиота в радужных подтяжках на Russia Today (на самом деле, страдающего какими-то нарушениями психики). Его так волновали "права геев" в России, что он напрочь забыл о дискриминации геев в США.

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## Lampada

> (Deleted. L.)
> В Америке в большей части штатов законодательно *запрещены* браки между геями, а в некоторых не только всякая пропаганда такого образа жизни, но и уголовная ответственность за половые контакты с лицом другого пола (что в России отменено больше 20 лет назад). Калифорния, которая является "землей обетованной" для геев - банкрот. А геям предлагается ехать в США, где их будут дискриминировать и поселять в гетто, ведь только там они могут реализовать свои права человека. 
> Особенно показательно в этом плане выступление эталонного полезного идиота в радужных подтяжках на Russia Today (на самом деле, страдающего какими-то нарушениями психики). Его так волновали "права геев" в России, что он напрочь забыл о дискриминации геев в США.

  ::  Disinformation and wishful thinking. 
But anyway, not to worry, just let them go! 
Again, it's not your problem? Just forget about it.  ::

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## Юрка

> Again, it's not your problem?

 Кхе-кхе.. А нам можно так отвечать американцам, когда они заводят песнь о наших законах?

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## Deborski

> I've heard of it. That Nikolai Alexeev you speak of is one of the main activists of the gay movement in Russia. He is well known for leading several gay pride organizations and struggling for the legalization of all kinds of gay rights - propaganda, marriage and, unfortunately, much more. 
> It should be noted that this guy is not just an ordinary deviant. He was taken by the police several times and even tried to sue Russian Federation in ECtHR. Almost every month he tries (and fails) to organize a gay parade in different cities across Russia thus making people quite angry. Even other gay organizations dislike him sometimes because his activities tend to cause more hate rather than admiration towards the sexual minorities. He is the type who struggles for the idea more than for people.
> I would say even more - most of the modern "antigay" laws are actually the consequences of his actions too.
> As for me, I don't like him. I wouldn't mind if this crazy man was removed from the society - it could make the life of both normal and deviant people much more peaceful.

 According to the article I posted, it isn't just Alexeev whose home was raided.  Is it true that citizens have received notices advising them to report their gay neighbors?

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## Lampada

> ... I wouldn't mind if this crazy man was removed from the society - it could make the life of both normal and deviant people much more peaceful.

 If you refer _deviant to gay people_, it mean that you just have not read that thread in its entirety. Being homosexual is not being deviant.  *Homosexuality is biologically natural, not deviant * Вспомним Раневскую:  _"Лесбиянство, гомосексуализм, мазохизм, садизм - это не извращения. Извращений, собственно, только два: хоккей на траве и балет на льду."  
"Актеры обсуждают на собрании труппы товарища, который обвиняется в гомосексуализме: "Это растление молодежи, это преступление".
"Боже мой, несчастная страна, где человек не может распорядиться своей ж....,"- вздохнула Раневская.     _

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## DrBaldhead

> According to the article I posted, it isn't just Alexeev whose home was raided.  Is it true that citizens have received notices advising them to report their gay neighbors?

 I haven't received anything.  
Actually, the police is not a threat to Alexeev. As I said earlier, such problems aren't new for him. But, suddenly, this has bombed him out instantly.

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## Deborski

Meet the Russian gay teen fighting back against Putin | Gay Star News 
This article is about a gay teenager living in Russia, whose name is Kirill.   

> Kirill said: ‘Life as an LGBT teenager in Russia is not sweet and pleasant. The adoption of this law has affected my life, I understand now we cannot live in this country. Prior to the adoption of the law I thought that everything can change.’ 
> While many countries continue to become more tolerant of homosexuality by introducing marriage equality, Russia has continued to regress its LGBT rights. Kirill agrees: ‘There is a growth of homophobia going on in Russian society, homosexuality is a taboo topic again.’ 
> Being openly gay in Russia has meant Kirill has lost all of his friends. ‘My environment is not tolerant towards gays. My mother pretends she does not know, she’s a homophobe.’ 
> Kirill only knows other gay people like him through social networking. 
> ‘Using Facebook and Twitter has great significance for me, it’s free of Russian conspiracy. I’m happy that access to these social networks is unlocked in Russia,' he said.

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## Lampada

> Кхе-кхе.. А нам можно так отвечать американцам, когда они заводят песнь о наших законах?

 It depends, and I think you know it by now. My post was not meant to be insulting, upsetting or disrespectful, was it?     ::

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## Deborski

> I haven't received anything.  
> Actually, the police is not a threat to Alexeev. As I said earlier, such problems aren't new for him. But, suddenly, this has bombed him out instantly.

 My main concern was whether there was any truth to the part about people receiving notices from the government to report their gay neighbors.  Clearly Alexeev is a different case.  But if the government starts knocking on people's doors just because they are gay, then that is outright intimidation and persecution.  I hope it is not true.

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## Deborski

> It depends, and I think you know it by now. My post was not meant to be insulting, upsetting or disrespectful, was it?

 I think the whole point here, is that we can have this discussion like mature adults, and we do not need to stoop to name calling, insulting each other, or making threatening comments.  Criticizing something the Russian government does, is not the same thing as criticizing Lampada, or criticizing Dr. Baldhead, or any of the individuals posting on this thread.  Everyone should have a right to their opinion, and the right to disagree.  But when it becomes personal, and threats are made or there is character assassination going on, then it is right and correct that the moderator should step in.  I think Lampada has done an excellent job of trying to keep this discussion civil!

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## Throbert McGee

> But if the government starts knocking on people's doors just because they are gay, then that is outright intimidation and persecution. I hope it is not true.

 The notice explains that "propaganda of homosexuality" can take many forms -- among them, the wearing of *яркая одежда*, "bright clothing"! Also note the filled-in blank with the precise number of homosexuals in the building (1)!   
I would guess that this is some sort of malicious joke against a resident of the building who "looks gay", and that the notice wasn't posted in ANY other buildings in the city.

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## Throbert McGee

> I haven't received anything. 
> Actually, the police is not a threat to Alexeev. As I said earlier, such problems aren't new for him. But, suddenly, this has bombed him out instantly.

 WOW! Thank you very much for posting those links. I have heard of both Alekseev and Michael Lucas, but was not aware of Alekseev's recent bizarre change in behavior. (I've never seen Mr. Lucas's, um, "work," but I've read a few articles written by him for LGBT news media here in the States.)

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## Throbert McGee

> Политическое убежище для российских геев в США  
> Comments!

 One comment: Roman Mamonov is very handsome!  ::  Russia's loss, America's gain...

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## Lampada

*"Охота на ведьм".* Средневековье, мрак.  ::  
Безграмотно!  "в течении многих лет".

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## Throbert McGee

> Breathing heavily after his tirade, he turned to Justice Clarence Thomas and said, “Except you, Clarence. Are you coming with me?” *Justice Thomas said nothing in reply*."

  ::  That was the best part! (For Russians: Clarence Thomas is known for two things in his career as a Supreme Court Justice: *always* agreeing with Mr. Scalia, and almost never authoring written opinions of his own -- not even very short ones. (It's very common for SCOTUS Justices to attach brief thoughts or clarifications of their own as additions to the court's majority decision.)

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## Eric C.

> *"Охота на ведьм".* Средневековье, мрак.

 I bet those Soviet morons hate "heterosexual propaganda" too. Ask them what they think of straight porn movies.  ::

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## Throbert McGee

Прочитав ещё раз сообщение Юрки #270, мне жаль что не могу дать 100 "Likes"! Конечно, я не соглашаюсь с Юркой во всём, и по-моему, он не понимает гомосексуализм настолько хорошо, как он считает. А мне нужно было 7-8 лет (т.е., с начала половой зрелости до студенческих дней), по меньшей мере, чтобы вполне понять СВОЮ гомосексуальную ориентацию. Поэтому не следует требовать, чтобы натуралы "переварили" такой сложный предмет за неделю! 
Во всяком случае, Юрка сделал несколько отличных и зорких наблюдений. Мне особенно понравились:   

> Кроме того мы будем контролировать основную телевизионную картинку. Поэтому в кадр такие флаги не попадут, и мы этого не увидим в спортивных передачах во время трансляции соревнований.Иностранцы конечно будут снимать в певую очередь такие флага и скандалы (особенно, если про спорт им снимать будет неинтересно из-за отсутствия медалей у спортсменов их страны).

 As it happens, some LGBT activists in the US have written, "Oh, we should send openly gay reporters and celebrities to do the TV coverage in Sochi -- Rachel Maddow, Anderson Cooper, Greg Louganis, Ellen DeGeneres..." But as Юрка correctly points out, this might please gays back in America, but the Russian public would never see the American-produced broadcasts with these gay American "celebrities" (most of whom are probably unknown in Russia anyway); they'll be watching the Russian-produced coverage of the Olympic Games.    

> Что касается наших геев, то я слышал о том, что *они не едины во мнении*. Значительная часть считает деятельность некоторых активистов вредной их сообществу.

 Also very well said. I would imagine that most LGBT Russians are not very concerned about whether they have a civil right to kiss in public, but are interested in much more practical and basic questions like: "Where can I find a doctor/psychologist who is non-homophobic and who feels comfortable speaking with openly gay patients?" Or: "My parents found out that I'm LGBT and they won't talk to me. Can anyone recommend a sympathetic priest/rabbi who they might listen to?" Or: "My partner and I need a lawyer who has experience with giving legal advice to same-sex couples."    

> Ещё недавно у нас была уголовная статья, а сейчас о геях шутят в юмористических передачах типа "Comedy Club" на канале TNT. Вот так, *через шутки, и меняется общественное мнение.*

 I've often said that the creators of _South Park_ should get some kind of Nobel Prize for the brilliant way that they have attacked homophobia _while making fun of gay people at the same time!_ (One of my favorites: The episode in which Satan visits heaven and asks, "God, do you think I should leave my boyfriend Chris and go back to Saddam Hussein?! I love them both and I can't decide...")   

> Россия проходит свой путь по изменению своего отношения к геям.  *Но на это нужно время.*

 YES!! And, who knows -- perhaps Russia (and Russian gays) will, in the long run, do a better job of it, and avoid some of the mistakes made by the LGBT Community in America. For example, I would argue that the AIDS epidemic among homo/bi men in the States might have been a hundred times smaller -- literally, deaths in the 4 figures, not the 6 figures -- if our gay culture had developed along a more gradual and conservative path. Instead, there was a radical ideology of Sex-Without-Limits, as a result of which HIV (which is, in fact, not very easy to pass from one person to another) spread very quickly.    

> Америка оказывает медвежью услугу гей-сообществу...

 The only thing I disagree with is "Америка оказывает..." -- maybe you should have written "Американские гей-активисты оказывают..." I mean, for the vast majority of Americans, this is a пофиг controversy. And Obama is talking about it mainly to make himself look good in the eyes of progressive/Democratic voters, IMHO. (From a human-rights perspective, Russia's so-called "No Promo Homo" law is obviously much less alarming than, for example, the so-called "Kill the Gays" legislation in Uganda -- so if a Republican were in the White House now, I doubt that the Russian law would be getting much attention.)

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## Throbert McGee

> Instead, there was a radical ideology of Sex-Without-Limits

 I know the word маятник, but I'm not sure how to say "the pendulum had over-swung" -- does *маятник качнулся слишком далеко* sound okay? Anyway, I believe the pendulum is swinging back in America. LGBT culture has lost a lot of its ultra-radicalism; something like 25% of gays vote Republican; and very gradually, some religious conservatives have become willing to say: "Maybe God made you gay, but that doesn't mean He made you to be a total _whore_ -- if you're going to be gay, *Jesus wants you to be monogamous!!*"

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## Deborski

> The notice explains that "propaganda of homosexuality" can take many forms -- among them, the wearing of *яркая одежда*, "bright clothing"! Also note the filled-in blank with the precise number of homosexuals in the building (1)!

 
That reminds me of the kinds of scare tactics the McCarthyists used during America's "red scare" - when they were persecuting supposed "communists."        
Here is the text of the now-infamous "How to Spot a Communist" pamphlet which was circulated in the 1950's.     

> How to Spot a Communist 
> Events of recent years have made it obvious that there is no fool-proof way of detecting a Communist. The Communist individual is no longer a "type" exemplified by the bearded and coarse revolutionary with time bomb in briefcase. U.S. Communists come from all walks of life, profess all faiths, and exercise all trades and professions. In addition, the Communist Party, USA, has made concerted efforts to go underground for the purpose of infiltration. 
> If there is no fool-proof system in spotting a Communist, there are, fortunately, indications that may give him away. These indications are often subtle but always present, for the Communist, by reason of his "faith" must act and talk along certain lines. 
> While a preference for long sentences is common to most Communist writing, a distinct vocabulary provides the more easily recognized feature of the "Communist Language." 
> Even a superficial reading of an article written by a Communist or a conversation with one will probably reveal the use of some of the following expressions: integrative thinking, vanguard, comrade, hootenanny, chauvinism, book-burning, syncretistic faith, bourgeois-nationalism, jingoism, colonialism, hooliganism, ruling class, progressive, demagogy, dialectical, witch-hunt, reactionary, exploitation, oppressive, materialist. This list, selected at random, could be extended almost indefinitely. 
> While all of the above expressions are part of the English language, their use by Communists is infinitely more frequent than by the general public. 
> In addition to these very general principles common to Communist tactics, a number of specific issues have been part of the Communist arsenal for a long period of time. These issues are raised not only by Communist appeals to the public, but also by the individual Party member or sympathizer who is a product of his Communist environment. They include: "McCarthyism," violation of civil rights, racial or religious discrimination, immigration laws, anti-subversive legislation, any legislation concerning labor unions, the military budget, "peace." 
> While showing standard opposition to certain standard issues, the U.S. Communist has traditionally identified himself with certain activities in the hope of furthering his ultimate purposes. Such hobbies as "folk dancing" and "folk music" have been traditionally allied with the Communist movement in the United States. 
> A study such as this can lead to only one certain conclusion: There is no sure-fire way of spotting a Communist. The principle difficulty involved is the distinction between the person who merely dissents in the good old American tradition and the one who condemns for the purpose of abolishing that tradition. 
> ...

 And, as *Lampada* alludes - it's the same tactics used during the middle ages when "witches" were the ones being persecuted.   
Humankind has always had a penchant for scapegoating those who are "different."  And the best way to do that, is to spread terrifying lies about them:  _Witches can place curses on you!  Communists will brainwash you!  Gay people will turn you into a homosexual!_ 
I wish we would just evolve already.  But, I am not holding my breath.

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## Throbert McGee

By the way, the idea came to me that maybe the best strategy for Russian LGBT activists is to spread a rumor that *homosexuality was originally invented in Russia* -- just like radio, Sputnik, TV, the Internet, and elephants -- until Americans STOLE THE IDEA AND TOOK ALL THE CREDIT!!! 
Россия, родина гей-слонов!!!  ::  ::  ::  ::  ::

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## Eric C.

> That reminds me of the kinds of scare tactics the McCarthyists used during America's "red scare" - when they were persecuting supposed "communists."        
> Here is the text of the now-infamous "How to Spot a Communist" pamphlet which was circulated in the 1950's.     
> And, as Lampada alludes - it's the same tactics used during the middle ages when "witches" were the ones being persecuted.   
> Humankind has always had a penchant for scapegoating those who are "different."  And the best way to do that, is to spread terrifying lies about them.  Witches can place curses on you!  Communists will brainwash you!  Gay people will turn you into a homosexual! 
> I wish we would just evolve already.  But, I am not holding my breath.

 Deb, commies are a different story.  ::  One is not born commie. One can willingly stop being a commie. Commies are particularly responsible for certain crimes against humanity in the past. Doesn't sound like gay people, does it?

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## Deborski

> Deb, commies are a different story.  One is not born commie. One can willingly stop being a commie. Commies are particularly responsible for certain crimes against humanity in the past. Doesn't sound like gay people, does it?

 The point of my post was actually that *the scare tactics are similar.*  I wasn't saying that gay people are just like commies, or that commies are just like witches, for that matter... 
And as far as that goes, most of the so-called "commies" persecuted during the McCarthyist era were not really communists anyway!  Or didn't you watch "The Majestic"?   ::

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## Doomer

> I know the word маятник, but I'm not sure how to say "the pendulum had over-swung" -- does *маятник качнулся слишком далеко* sound okay?

 it's ok

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## maxmixiv

It's ok, but "слишком сильно" might be even better. 
А листовка похожа на самодеятельность какого-то начальника жилищной конторы  ::  Отключим газ! 
И пожалуйста, американцы! миленькие, родненькие: этих только не присылайте:  ::  orig-4655381.jpg

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## alexsms

> А листовка похожа на самодеятельность какого-то начальника жилищной конторы  Отключим газ!

 А также плакаты времен Второй мировой - "Будь бдительнее! Болтун - находка для врага!"

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## alexsms

> And, as *Lampada* alludes - it's the same tactics used during the middle ages when "witches" were the ones being persecuted.  
> I wish we would just evolve already. But, I am not holding my breath.

 This really looks like mediaevalism, right.

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## alexsms

> I would guess that this is some sort of malicious joke against a resident of the building who "looks gay", and that the notice wasn't posted in ANY other buildings in the city.

 Does the source say it could be a joke? Everything is possible in Russia: it could be a joke, but it could also be a vigilant building manager too.

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## DrBaldhead

> I would guess that this is some sort of malicious joke against a resident of the building who "looks gay", and that the notice wasn't posted in ANY other buildings in the city.

 According to the media, these notices were placed on numerous buildings across the city of Rostov-Na-Donu by prankers and contain random numbers of deviants found. The phone numbers mentioned in the notice belong to the police and one of the city goverment officials. 
The city's administration has claimed that they have never issued such notices, which is believable because the goverment notices would at least have the city herald on them. To those who have found such notices on their houses it was recommended to report it to the police. 
So, I presume this arrogant provocation was done by the prankers who intended to worsen the reputation of our country (not for the first time, actually) and maybe even belonged to an LGBT organization themselves.

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## Юрка

> Безграмотно! "в течении многих лет".

  

> So, I presume this arrogant provocation was done by the prankers who intended to worsen the reputation of our country (not for the first time, actually) and maybe even belonged to an LGBT organization themselves.

 И зачем вам в Америке неграмотные русские геи?  :: 
Зачем вам провокаторы - не спрашиваю.

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## Lampada

> И зачем вам в Америке неграмотные русские геи? 
> Зачем вам провокаторы не спрашиваю.

 Ты запутался: эту безграмотную прокламацию не геи соорудили, а гомофобы.

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## Lampada

How the IRS just handed gay marriage a huge win   _"On Thursday, the Internal Revenue Service ruled that, for tax purposes, same-sex couples legally married in any state are married, so far as the federal government is concerned, no matter where they live."
" And the ruling is retroactive, meaning married gay couples can re-file their taxes back to 2010, but don't have to if it isn't advantageous to do so."_

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## Юрка

> Ты запутался: эту безграмотную прокламацию не геи соорудили, а гомофобы.

 Логичнее предположить, что кто-то работает под гомофобов. Сами сочинили, сами сфотографировали, сами возмутились. Америка же платит, чего ж не поиграться.

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## Deborski

> these notices were placed on numerous buildings across the city of Rostov-Na-Donu by prankers and contain random numbers of deviants found. The phone numbers mentioned in the notice belong to the police and one of the city goverment officials. 
> The city's administration has claimed that they have never issued such notices, which is believable because the goverment notices would at least have the city herald on them. To those who have found such notices on their houses it was recommended to report it to the police. 
> So, I presume this arrogant provocation was done by the prankers who intended to worsen the reputation of our country (not for the first time, actually) and maybe even belonged to an LGBT organization themselves.

 I am relieved to hear it is not a government initiative.  It's still a terrible thing, and extremely malicious, but at least it's only an isolated group of troublemakers and not the police themselves.  )))

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## DrBaldhead

> Логичнее предположить, что кто-то работает под гомофобов. Сами сочинили, сами сфотографировали, сами возмутились.

 Come to think of it, it is quite believable. Most of the human rights organizations in Russia are much more interested in publicity and financial help to spend for their selfish ends rather than in someone's rights.

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## Throbert McGee

> So, I presume this arrogant provocation was done by the prankers who intended to worsen the reputation of our country (not for the first time, actually) and maybe even belonged to an LGBT organization themselves.

 There have certainly been some cases of that in the US -- self-described "LGBT activists" who write graffiti like *Kill the faggots!* on their own cars, then call the police to report a homophobic crime.

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## Throbert McGee

> Communists will brainwash you! Gay people will turn you into a homosexual!

 Speaking of gays AND communists, here in the States we've just observed the 50th anniversary of Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech. And it's worth remembering that one of the main organizers of King's 1963 "March On Washington" was a guy named Bayard Rustin -- who was black, gay, and (at one time) a card-carrying member of the КПСША.  
Shortly before the march in August 1963, ultra-right-wing Senator Strom Thurmond denounced Rustin as a "homosexual and Communist". In actual fact, Rustin had become disenchanted with Stalin and left the Communist Party in 1941 -- and by the 1960s, he was strongly anti-Soviet, arguing that the USSR's policies in Africa were imperialist, and no better than the imperialism of the West. But he never made any secret of his homosexuality (and he had been arrested for a "gay three-way" with two other men, in a parked car at night, back in 1953). For which reason many in the black civil rights movement tried to keep him out of public view, and probably 90% of Americans don't know his name, despite his distinguished career in the civil-rights movement.

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## Eric C.

> There have certainly been some cases of that in the US -- self-described "LGBT activists" who write graffiti like *Kill the faggots!* on their own cars, then call the police to report a homophobic crime.

 Maybe they got irritated with HD bikers at some point?  ::

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## Lampada

> Логичнее предположить, что кто-то работает под гомофобов. Сами сочинили, сами сфотографировали, сами возмутились. Америка же платит, чего ж не поиграться.

 Сами предположили, сами в это поверили.  Сами придумали, сами обвинили... Сами уверены, что все в эти сказки поверят.  Очень логично.

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## UhOhXplode

> 

 If that letter was authentic, I would call it "over the top!". I know lots of dudes that wear bright colors and they aren't gay, lol! 
But I do think this is kinda over the top. It happens in America too and they should at least help clean up the mess when they finish. I mean, I understand that he's a leading activist but they didn't arrest him so he shouldn't be unfairly punished with a huge mess to clean up. And why take the electronic stuff when they could just download even terabyte HDD's and SSD's onto flash drives? Russia&#39;s Leading Gay Activist&#39;s Home Raided | www.kirotv.com 
And this is way over the top! Like the Coca-Cola comany would really suffer if gays didn't drink cokes, lol! Gay Rights Coke Protests Over Sochi Olympics 
I'm trying to stay open about all this but if the west has gay reporters to cover the games, I'll watch the games on Russian TV!

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## Юрка

> Сами предположили, сами в это поверили. Сами придумали, сами обвинили... Сами уверены, что все в эти сказки поверят. Очень логично.

 Как бы Вам объяснить...
1) Ну, это как сирийские террористы. Сами применили химию, подарив США информационный повод начать войну. А США сделали вид, что поверили в то, что это сирийская армия применила, потому что им хочется начать войну. Тут тот же приём, но с бумажкой. Вы вообще слышал об идеологической войне?.. Если она есть, то должны быть и примеры, логично? Ну дык. 
2) К тому же, не вам ли не знать, что всё вертится вокруг денег. Если на мышиную возню выделяются деньги, то будьте уверены, возня будет.

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## UhOhXplode

^ I don't know how I missed that. But I already decided that the "painting" episode was the same thing - another tool that could be used against Russia.

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## Throbert McGee

> I
> And this is way over the top! Like the Coca-Cola comany would really suffer if gays didn't drink cokes, lol! Gay Rights Coke Protests Over Sochi Olympics

 Two examples of English gay slang that seem appropriate here: 
"Oh, Mary, please..." (sarcastically expresses *Серьёзно?!*, or *С  меня хватит!* -- a bit old-fashioned, but still heard) _drama queen_ -- someone who is ALWAYS "over-the-top" 
Neither of these seems to have equivalents in Russian gay slang, however. (But English speakers might be interested to know that "Он в теме?" is basically equivalent to "Is he a friend of Dorothy?" -- i.e., a coded way of saying "Is he gay?")

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## UhOhXplode

> Two examples of English gay slang that seem appropriate here: 
> "Oh, Mary, please..." (sarcastically expresses *Серьёзно?!*, or *С  меня хватит!* -- a bit old-fashioned, but still heard) _drama queen_ -- someone who is ALWAYS "over-the-top" 
> Neither of these seems to have equivalents in Russian gay slang, however. (But English speakers might be interested to know that "Он в теме?" is basically equivalent to "Is he a friend of Dorothy?" -- i.e., a coded way of saying "Is he gay?")

 Props for that!  ::  I've been avoiding slang as much as I can since it's a Russian site. But yeah, drama queen or drama llama woulda worked. They just needa moss, lol! Maybe listen to some sick tracks and party! I mean, I'm no bird around gays so they really don't needa be chirping so much. Btw, there's some secret codes for American gays too. Peeps that use "boi" instead of "boy" are typically gay. Also, if someone's swag then they're gay. 
But hey, I'm not all over my mains so yeah, I totally am opposed to gay persecution. Protecting the yutes, okay. But not the violence and persecution. But like I said, it's a Russian issue and outsiders will only make things worse.
Well, Russians are intelligent so maybe they can dream up something that works better than the western LGBT. With the escalating anti-gay violence in the US, they really are looking way out of the loop. They just don't reach and things are getting really cray!

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## Lampada

Putin waves off 'anti-gay' law criticism ahead of *Obama's LGBT visit*

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## Doomer

> Putin waves off 'anti-gay' law criticism ahead of *Obama's LGBT visit*

 That would make American LGBT activists jealous  ::  
I doubt anything else would change

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## Throbert McGee

Кажется, что ветка заканчивается, а мне хочется предложить список "Героев моего времени":  
Гетеросексуальный христианский психолог Warren Throckmorton утверждает, что считать ли "гомосексуальные акты" грехом или нет, всё-таки "ex-gay" лечение чаще всего не действует -- и к тому же, фрейдские теории о происхождении гомосексуализма не имеют малейшую научную основу. Раньше в его практике, Доктор Трокмортон в самом деле был сторонником "экс-гей" лечения, но он постеппено передумывал на основе сотен бесед с ЛГБТ-пациентами. Теперь он говорит другим християнам, что гомосексуальная ориентация (не акты, а сама ориентация) -- это *вполно естественное отклонение от норм*, которое существует *с естественной целью*, известной только Богу одному. (Однако, о грешности однополых актов, Трокмортон публичо ничего не утверждает, и ни в чём не отрицает. То есть, в качестве психолга, он не представляет собственное мнение о "правильном толковании" истории Содома, к премеру.) 
Гей-активист Bill Weintraub утверждает, что секс между мужчиными всегда должен быть непроникающим -- по его словам, *"не меч в ножны, так сказать, а меч о меч"* _("not sword into scabbard, so to speak, but sword against sword"_). По-видомому, Вайнтрауб частично основывает свои аргументы против пенетрации на раввинском обсуждении в Талмуде -- а он сам совершенно нерелигиозный еврей, и обращается к всем "МСМам" всякой религии и ориентации: и геям, и бисексуалам, и "просто любознательным". И разумеется, он тоже думает, что в эпохе ВИЧа/СПИДа, проникающий секс не стоит риска здоровью. (Его долгосрочный парень-партнёр-любовник заразился ВИЧом в начале 1980ых годов, до того когда пара познакомилась, и спустя 13 лет погиб от СПИДа, а Вайнтрауб до сих пор остаётся ВИЧ-негативным.) 
Гетеросексуальный раввин Simchah Roth (покойный) утверждал, что и сексуально активным однополым парам возможно жить в пределах _"halakha"_, т.е. еврейского религиозного закона. И я, говоря как "экс-католик" атеист, считаю что на вольшой степени,  ерудиция и аргументы раввина Рота могут говорить и неевреям. (Но, конечно, некоторые подробности касаются лишь тех еврейских геев и лесбиянок, желающих соблюдать "галаху"!) Кстати, в отличии от Трокмортона и Вайнтрауба -- которые давно пишут об "ЛГБТ-вопросах" -- Рот начал рассматривать этот предмет только в последних годах его жизни, когда в "Conservative Jewish" движении в США возникал спор об однополом браке. 
If any of my Russian was unclear, I can say it again in English! 
ЗЫ: In a comment from this thread, Юрка used the word *целомудрие*. I don't know about the exact nuances of the Russian word, but the English translation "chastity" does NOT always mean "total abstinence from sex" (the correct word for that is "celibacy"). Instead, "chastity" describes a "morally-ordered sexual life" -- and I would say that Weintraub approaches this subject in a secular way; Throckmorton speaks primarily to Christians, gay and straight; Roth primarily to LGBT Jews (especially those who are religious but non-Orthodox). But "как определяется целомудрие для ЛГБТ?" is a theme common to all three.

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## Deborski

Throbert - since you are an "ex-Catholic" - you might find this blog interesting, as well as the book which this man, Troy Fitzgerald, has published, titled "Cults and Closets."  Cults and Closets | Coming Out of Chaos 
It was written by a former member of the Worldwide Church of God, the cult my uncle founded which I had the exceedingly bad luck to grow up in.  He details his raw story of how he left the church and came out of the closet.  I'm in the process of reading it now, and in contact with this writer daily.  Powerful, gripping stuff.   
Maybe I am hasty in calling it bad luck.  After all, it was the WCG which sent me to Soviet Russia (and then pretty much abandoned me there), which was where I finally left the church (was disfellowshipped, actually) and began my slow deconversion journey and exodus from religious belief systems.  But, I might never have been able to live in Russia if not for the cult, so in retrospect, perhaps it was a blessing in disguise. 
As Sting said, "Men go crazy in congregations but they only get better one by one."

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## Throbert McGee

> на раввинском обсуждении в Талмуде

 Именно, о *точном* смысле библейского эвфемизма "как с женщиной" (Левит 18:22 и 20:13) -- анг. "as with a woman", ивр. _mishkevei ishah_. 
Сколько чернил -- да и крови -- пролились из-за этих стих? 
Очень жаль, что "Б-г" не выражал Свои мысли в прозрачном языке, а везде писал через туманные эвфемизмы!

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## Throbert McGee

> But, I might never have been able to live in Russia if not for the cult, so in retrospect, perhaps it was a blessing in disguise.

 This is, in general, a healthy attitude to have in life! I've said similar things about my stormy long-term relationship with my first boyfriend (I would never have moved to NYC in the 1990s if not for him), and about my love/hate attitude towards Catholicism and Christianity. 
By the way, *I didn't leave Christianity because the Catholic church says that gay people are sinners.* I left because I ultimately decided that the "redemptive sacrifice" and "substitutionary atonement" narrative is logically impossible to reconcile with monotheism.   
I have since changed my opinion slightly -- I now admit that the Death and Resurrection of Christ could total make sense if one assumes that it was essentially a Broadway show produced, written, and directed by God -- and that Jesus and Judas and Pilate and Satan were all actors contracted by God to perform roles authored by God, the playwright. Which is to say, in particular, that *Satan and Judas were only pretending to hate Jesus*, in the same way that Gene Hackman (as Lex Luthor) pretended to hate Christopher Reeve (as Superman).  In other words, the world's first "Passion Play" was the Passion itself. 
Сказка ложь, да в ней намек!
Добрым молодцам урок.  *PS. Is there a way to make large, annoying images display at thumbnail size in the MR version of BBCode? (I know how to do it in HTML.)*

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## Lampada

... утверждает, что считать ли "гомосексуальные акты" грехом или нет, (здесь чего-то не хватает: например: _пока достоверно не решено_) или может: ...утверждает,_ что ещё не решено_, считать ли ... 
...всё-таки "ex-gay" лечение чаще всего не действует -- и к тому же, фрейдские теории о происхождении гомосексуализма не имеют малейшую научную основу _под собой ни малейшей научной основы. ...  _ 
...Раньше в его практике, Доктор Трокмортон в самом деле _в действительности_ был сторонником "экс-гей" лечения, но, он постепенно передумывал основываясь на сотнях на основе сотен бесед с ЛГБТ-пациентами, _поменял своё мнение_. ...
... 
...(Однако, о грешности _греховности или негреховности_ однополых актов Трокмортон публично не_ высказывается._ , и ничего не отрицает .  
...

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## Deborski

> By the way, *I didn't leave Christianity because the Catholic church says that gay people are sinners.* I left because I ultimately decided that the "redemptive sacrifice" and "substitutionary atonement" narrative is logically impossible to reconcile with monotheism.

 Cognitive dissonance - believing in two ideas which directly contradict one another - is a hallmark of religion. 
IE, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son." 
You are supposed to believe that God loves us all.  But God killed his son. 
Thousands of examples of this kind of twisted logic are found all through religious texts, including, but not limited to the Christian Bible. 
I can understand some people conceiving of the bible as a kind of allegory (those who take it literally, I will never understand), but even then you have to cherry-pick which scriptures to hold up as examples of morality.  The mental gymnastics required to believe to maintain opposing beliefs can make a person crazy, which may help explain why so many religious people are not playing with a full deck. 
God is omnipotent.  But God needs our help to preach his word.  And he needs our money too, if you listen to the Pat Robertsons of the world...  
I think George Carlin summed it up the best:

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## Paul G.



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## Throbert McGee

А пожалуй, немного bullshit нравится Тому, кто заводит пружину наших солнечных часов...    
ЗЫ: The aphorism "God, who winds our sundials" is usually attributed to Georg C. Lichtenberg -- but I can't find it on Wikiquote (or Викицитатник).

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## Lampada

Украинский парламент готов *запретить дискриминацию гомосексуалистов* ради интеграции в Евросоюз - Газета.Ru | Политика   *
Рада работает над «еврозаданием»*

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## Throbert McGee

> ... утверждает, что считать ли "гомосексуальные акты" грехом или нет, (здесь чего-то не хватает: например: _пока достоверно не решено_) или может: ...утверждает,_ что ещё не решено_, считать ли ...

 Я хотел сказать: "Throckmorton asserts that regardless of whether one considers homosexual acts to be a sin, ex-gay therapy simply doesn't work." In other words, he argues that *even religious conservatives who condemn homosexuality* should also condemn ex-gay therapy, because it's unscientific.

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## Lampada

... И я, говоря как "экс-католик" атеист, считаю*,* что_ в большой_ степени, ерудиция и аргументы раввина Рота могут _быть признаны и неевреями._  
Рот начал рассматривать_/обдумывать/изучать_ этот предмет только_ в_ последние годыего жизни, когда в "Conservative Jewish" движении в США возникал спор об _однополых браках.
..._

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## Lampada

> That would make American LGBT activists jealous  
> I doubt anything else would change

 *Капля камень точит! * А завидовать чему? Они завидуют русским геям, что американский президент вступился за них?
Таки да, ни один российский президент не помог американским геям в их борьбе против дискриминации!          *Russian LGBT community thanks you in pictures 
Comments!!! *

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## Deborski

> Украинский парламент готов *запретить дискриминацию гомосексуалистов* ради интеграции в Евросоюз - Газета.Ru | Политика

 Did I understand this correctly?  Is the Ukraine going to ban discrimination against gays in order to fit into the European Union?  The title seems to translate that way but I could be misunderstanding it because the text seems to say that the measure lacks support in parliament.  I was unable to find any corroborating news stories about this.  
If Ukraine bans discrimination against gays, that would be a huge step and would really fly in the face of Russia's propaganda laws!

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## Lampada

> Did I understand this correctly? Is the Ukraine going to ban discrimination against gays in order to fit into the European Union? The title seems to translate that way but I could be misunderstanding it because the text seems to say that the measure lacks support in parliament. I was unable to find any corroborating news stories about this.  
> If Ukraine bans discrimination against gays, that would be a huge step and would really fly in the face of Russia's propaganda laws!

 "Работают" над решением "тяжёлого" задания, работают в поте лица! Могу себе предствить, как их разрывают внутренние противоречия: признать гомосексуалистов нормальными людьми! 
Посмотрим, что эти бюрократы со своей иной этикой там выродят.  
Из статьи: _"...Трудно придется депутатам, причем всех фракций, с проектом, касающимся запрета на дискриминацию гомосексуалистов._ _Необходимый для евроинтеграции закон вводит наказание за нарушение прав гомосексуалистов при приёме на работу. «У нас несколько иные этические нормы», — уходит от вопроса о законе Чечетов. Пашинский же считает, что Верховная рада найдет «другую форму урегулирования этого вопроса». ..." _ *Из комментариев:* _"На святое покушаются:
на возможность геев преследовать! Теперь жди новых таможенных неприятностей на российско-украинской границе ! "_

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## Deborski

I did find this short little article from Interfax, regarding the decision in Ukrainian parliament.    Rallies for European integration, against anti-discrimination bill underway outside Ukrainian parliament

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## Doomer

> А завидовать чему?

 It's strange to me that I have to explain it but here you go
It is clearly a political move which is unlikely has anything to do with gay people, however around any community that has public attention (and LGBT in the US has a lot of public attention right now) you can always find "clingfish" people(who are most likely not gay at all) that thrive on public attention, suck money and power whenever possible. Obama's move would make those guys jealous, that's what I meant. As for Russian people - I doubt they care if American president wants to talk to gays, so his move is for American audience or electorate if you will.  

> Они завидуют русским геям, что американский президент вступился за них? Таки да, ни один российский президент не помог американским геям в их борьбе против дискриминации!

 I wrote American LGBT activists, I didn't write American gays. See above for explanation

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## Lampada

> Я хотел сказать: "Throckmorton asserts that regardless of whether one considers homosexual acts to be a sin, ex-gay therapy simply doesn't work." In other words, he argues that *even religious conservatives who condemn homosexuality* should also condemn ex-gay therapy, because it's unscientific.

 _Throckmorton утверждает, что независимо от того считать или нет гомосексуальные связи греховными, противогомосексуальная терапия не даёт результата/ безуспешна. Другими словами, он настаивает, что даже религиозные консерваторы, которые резко осуждают гомосексуализм, должны в то же время осуждать противогомосексуальную терапию, как лженаучную и неэффективную. _  
По теме:_ http://flogiston.ru/articles/therapy...al_orientation_

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## Throbert McGee

> *Капля камень точит!*

 
At first this expression reminded me of the story about a little bird that comes to a huge mountain every 1000 years and pecks off one grain of sand! 
But maybe a better equivalent in colloquial English would be "Baby steps, baby steps..." 
Or "Every little bit helps."

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## alexsms

> Or "Every little bit helps."

 i like this one.

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## alexsms

> Did I understand this correctly? Is the Ukraine going to ban discrimination against gays in order to fit into the European Union? The title seems to translate that way but I could be misunderstanding it because the text seems to say that the measure lacks support in parliament. I was unable to find any corroborating news stories about this.  
> If Ukraine bans discrimination against gays, that would be a huge step and would really fly in the face of Russia's propaganda laws!

 Deb, the title translates directly, so probably you understand it correctly.

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## Юрка

> *Капля камень точит! * А завидовать чему? Они завидуют русским геям, что американский президент вступился за них?
> Таки да, ни один российский президент не помог американским геям в их борьбе против дискриминации!          *Russian LGBT community thanks you in pictures 
> Comments!!! *

 Комментарии? Пожалуйста! 
1. Вы пишите "капля камень точит". Камень - это наверное Россия, мы, наша политика. Но приглядитесь к фотографиям: на кого они должны воздействовать? Плакатики на иностранных языках. Похоже, что они призваны "точить" иностранный мозг, а не наш. Очевидно же, что объектом этой пропаганды являетесь вы, иностранцы. Это вас надо возбудить и правильно настроить. И во время Олимпиады мы будем смотреть Олимпиаду, а вы своих любимых ЛГБТ. Вообще, по сути это тоже самое, что Запад сделал с Московской Олимпиадой: решается задача испортить имидж страны. Есть бочка мёда (Олимпиада), Запад кидает туда свою ложку дёгтя. 
2. Плакатики написаны рукой. Это чтобы было ощущение самодеятельности, что слова идут действительно от души. Но подозрительно выглядит одинаковая последняя фраза "Из ... с любовью". И улыбки на фотках похожие. И фон выбран везде довольно живописный. Это ж организованная, профессиональная PR-акция. А такие акции не бывают без финансирования.  

> Таки да, ни один российский президент не помог американским геям в их борьбе против дискриминации!

 1. А американские геи помогли нам в борьбе против дискриминации? Например, на Московской Олимпиаде?
2. Американские геи находятся в юрисдикции российского президента? 
Это я подвожу Вас к мысли, что у нас нет ни моральной обязанности, ни юридического права помогать американским геям.

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## Throbert McGee

> Плакатики написаны рукой. Это чтобы было ощущение самодеятельности, что слова идут действительно от души. Но подозрительно выглядит одинаковая последняя фраза "Из ... с любовью". И улыбки на фотках похожие. И фон выбран везде довольно живописный. Это ж организованная, *профессиональная PR-акция. А такие акции не бывают без финансирования.*

 Really? How much financing do you need for three sheets of paper, magic-markers in three or four colors of ink, and a digital camera? And the phrase "From Russia with Love" was immortalized by the James Bond movie -- everyone knows "Roza Klebb" and her dagger-shoes -- so it's not really подозрительно that Russians addressing themselves to foreigners would use the phrase. 
Here's an English term for you: "grassroots activism", meaning person-to-person activism by individuals, without a lot of money or professional PR firms. And the opposite is "Astroturf activism", referring to the trademark for a kind of artificial plastic grass on football fields. 
The question is, do these photos represent "real" grassroots work by Russians, or "Astroturfing" paid for by foreigners? I agree with you that the second option is _possible_, but I don't think there's clear evidence of it in these photos. 
PS. But, incidentally, the use of _From Russia with Love_ by LGBT Russians is perhaps a little bit ironic --since the evil Roza Klebb is rather obviously implied to be a lesbian, while the beautiful Tatiana Romanova is totally heterosexual and (naturally) wants to defect to the West with the help of James Bond!

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## Throbert McGee

> Вообще, по сути это тоже самое, что Запад сделал с Московской Олимпиадой: решается задача *испортить имидж страны*.

 So when the Western press talks about homophobia in Jamaica, or in the Arabian Gulf countries, or in Uganda, do you think that's also part of some conspiracy to ruin Russia's image?

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## Doomer

> So when the Western press talks about homophobia in Jamaica, or in the Arabian Gulf countries, or in Uganda, do you think that's also part of some conspiracy to ruin Russia's image?

 I disagree that those are comparable examples 
Two of them are from a year ago and the other is from CNN Middle East - a specialized site for news that is not visited by many Americans, you can't even see it on regular TV news. But the Russian law has been widely criticized by Western media including prime time TV news channels, it's been made sure that majority of the Westerners(including the US population) would know about it. 
And the links you shown - few people know they even exist 
Of course if Obama would start meeting LGBT communities in ALL countries he visits - I'll take back my words, otherwise - totally not comparable

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## Doomer

> Really? How much financing do you need for three sheets of paper, magic-markers in three or four colors of ink, and a digital camera? And the phrase "From Russia with Love" was immortalized by the James Bond movie -- everyone knows "Roza Klebb" and her dagger-shoes -- so it's not really подозрительно that Russians addressing themselves to foreigners would use the phrase.

 That's what Юрка meant. He suggesting that those pictures targeting Western society, to stir things up there. But I think it was obvious from the beginning
We all going back to the very beginning of this thread: gays are just a "fork" to poke Russia. It's all nasty politics but right now they just painted rainbow

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## Юрка

> Really?

 Ну, то что это профессиональная постановка, я чувствую копчиком. Для этого просто надо жить в РФ. 
 Сомнения вызывают три вещи: 
- ориентированность на западного зрителя, 
- стандартность (одинаковость) фотографий, 
- сам факт существования движения снизу. 
Понимаете, они все приятные, причём именно для западного зрителя. 
У нас на улице не улыбаются. А у этих у всех на лицах стандартные улыбки.
И все снимки сделаны в центре города. Если бы снимки были любительскими, то уверяю Вас, что фон был бы не таким удачным.
У всех симпатичная и фотогеничная одежда.
У всех милые лица.
Это всё мелочи, но когда на фотках нет ни одного прокола (отклонения от стандарта), то профессиональная рука очевидна.
Кроме того, какие-либо движения снизу в России не характерны. Это большая редкость. У нас как правило всё делается по команде сверху.

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## Lampada

> Ну, то что это профессиональная постановка, я чувствую копчиком. Для этого просто надо жить в РФ. 
>  Сомнения вызывают три вещи: 
> - ориентированность на западного зрителя, 
> - стандартность (одинаковость) фотографий, 
> - сам факт существования движения снизу. 
> Понимаете, *они все приятные,* причём именно для западного зрителя. ?
> У нас на улице не улыбаются. А у этих у всех на лицах стандартные улыбки.
> И все снимки сделаны в центре города. Если бы снимки были любительскими, то уверяю Вас, что фон был бы не таким удачным. *У всех симпатичная и фотогеничная одежда.
> У всех милые лица.*
> ...

 Если милые, приятные, симпатичные, улыбчивые, то что это значит? Почему приятные только для западного зрителя? Кто по-твоему эти люди? Все подкупленные _буратины_? Вообще не* геи?* Что именно твой копчик чувствует?   
Что-то здесь сильно-сильно запахло старыми временами. Как это было раньше в КГБ, в ОБХЭСе: - _Как дела? - Шьются._ ::

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## Юрка

> Если милые, приятные, симпатичные, улыбчивые, то что это значит?

 Это значит, что их выбирали. Ведь Вы не будете утверждать, что среди ЛГБТ все милые и приятные?  

> Почему приятные только для западного зрителя?

 А кому ещё нужны сладкие улыбки и открыточные виды Исаакиевского собора?  

> Кто по-твоему эти люди? Все подкупленные _буратины_? Вообще не* геи?*

 Это могут быть просто прохожие, согласившиеся подержать плакатик в знак солидарности с геями. Им конечно не платили, а вот тому, кто фоткал и отбирал людей наверное платили. Ибо они профессионалы.  

> Что-то здесь сильно-сильно попахивает старыми временами. 
> Как это было раньше в ОБХЭСе: - _Как дела? - Шьются._

 Шьются, ещё как шьются. В Россию из вашингтонского обкома в обход нашего законодательства поступают миллиарды рублей, о чём ваши начальники говорят открыто. 
Кавказским лесным братьям тоже платят из-за рубежа. И они тоже снимают отчёты для своих спонсоров.

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## Lampada

> Это значит, что их выбирали. Ведь Вы не будете утверждать, что среди ЛГБТ все милые и приятные?
> А кому ещё нужны сладкие улыбки и открыточный виды Исаакиевского собора?
> Это могут быть просто прохожие, согласившиеся подержать плакатик в знак солидарности с геями. Им конечно не платили, а вот тому, кто фоткал и отбирал людей наверное платили. Ибо они профессионалы.
> Шьются, ещё как шьются. В Россию из вашингтонского обкома в обход нашего законодательства поступают миллиарды рублей, о чём ваши начальники говорят открыто. Поэтому не надо делать вид, что у нас всё, что ни делается - это движение снизу.

  
Когда уже тебе в этой теме надоест фантазировать? Шо тебе до этих геев?

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## Юрка

> Когда уже тебе в этой теме надоест фантазировать?

 Ну, я хоть придерживаюсь темы, а не обсуждаю участников темы.  

> Шо тебе до этих геев?

 А шо Вам меня?

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## Lampada

> Ну, я хоть придерживаюсь темы, а не обсуждаю участников темы.
> А шо Вам меня?

 Ничего ты не придерживаешься, только уводишь от темы. Бесконечный _поток сознания._ 
 Почему бы тебе не пойти посочинять в блог?

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## Юрка

> Бесконечный _поток сознания._

 Я могу и кратко.
Вот, пожалуйста: 
Тема "Сочи и геи" - это эпизод драки Запада с Россией. И драка эта не за права геев. Драка эта начилась много веков назад, когда геев на Западе вешали и сжигали на кострах. Ну а сейчас решили использовать их более рационально.  

> только уводишь от темы.

 Что касается увода от темы: уже в заголовке темы есть увод, так как закон против пропагандистов, а не против геев. Ведь не каждый гей является пропагандистом, и не каждый пропагандист является геем.

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## Doomer

> Почему бы тебе не пойти посочинять в блог?

 почему бы вам не закончить посещать эту тему, если вам не нравится что здесь пишут. Можете например открыть свой блог и там писать про права геев

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## Throbert McGee

> У нас на улице не улыбаются.

  ::  
А если русский на улице как-то улыбается *случайно*, тогда что дальше? Он превращается в летучую мышь и улетает?

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## Lampada

> ...Что касается увода от темы: уже в заголовке темы есть увод, так как закон против пропагандистов, а не против геев. Ведь не каждый гей является пропагандистом, и не каждый пропагандист является геем.

 Плавали-знаем.  Закон-шмакон, бьют не по закону, а по морде.

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## Deborski

> А если русский на улице как-то улыбается *случайно*, тогда что дальше? Он превращается в летучую мышь и улетает?

 Так странно... когда я жила в России (во времен Советского Союза), я помню, что иногда люди улыбались и  даже смеялись свободно! Может быть они все были КГБ, и они сделали большой обман на меня?  Наверное, я просто предположила это.  Конечно, все русские всегда ходят серёзнo и совсем не смеются.  ::

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## Paul G.

> А если русский на улице как-то улыбается *случайно*, тогда что дальше? Он превращается в летучую мышь и улетает?

 Он имеет в виду, если кто-то улыбается без видимой причины.
Как известно, "смех без причины - признак дурачины" (proverb).

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## Юрка

> А если русский на улице как-то улыбается *случайно*, тогда что дальше?

 Наши не допускают таких ошибок. А вот половина американских шпионов проваливается по этой причине в первый же день своего пребывания в РФ (забывают перестать улыбаться).  ::   

> Закон-шмакон, бьют не по закону, а по морде.

 Бьют по морде. Но не потому что есть закон, а потому что душа требует. И тут я предложил бы разделить проблемы: гомофобия и гей-пропаганда. Разные проблемы, но почему-то аргументы смешиваются. В заголовке темы закон (в искажённом виде), а все аргументы против гомофобии.

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## Lampada

> Это одна из причин, почему половина американских шпионов проваливается в первый же день своего пребывания в РФ. Они забывают перестать улыбаться. 
> Бьют по морде. Но не потому что есть закон, а потому что душа требует. И тут я предложил бы разделить проблемы: гомофобия и гей-пропаганда. Разные проблемы, но почему-то аргументы смешиваются. В заголовке темы закон (в искажённом виде), а все аргументы против гомофобии.

 Ой, "душа требует" бить по морде!  Теперь понятно за чьи души и за чьи проблемы ты тут копья ломаешь: бедные гомофобы могут загреметь по тюрьмам за побои и убийства!  Ну давай-давай, продолжай!

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## Юрка

> бедные гомофобы могут загреметь по тюрьмам за побои и убийства!

 Вы считаете, что могут? 
Если Вы считаете, что гомофобы могут у нас в РФ загреметь в тюрьмы, то это значит, что у нас в РФ правильное отношение к гомофобам. И тогда я не понимаю, по какому поводу Вы ломаете здесь свои копья.  ::

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## Lampada

> Вы считаете, что могут? 
> Если Вы считаете, что гомофобы могут у нас в РФ загреметь в тюрьмы, то это значит, что у нас в РФ правильное отношение к гомофобам. И тогда я не понимаю, по какому поводу Вы ломаете здесь свои копья.

 Очень правильное отношение:  сиди в кладовке и не высовывайся.  Держи своё существо под большим секретом, чтобы никто не догадался.  А лучше вообще забудь, кто ты есть или самоубейся.  
Да, я хочу, чтобы не убивали,  не били морды, просто оставили в покое, но для Путина будет предпочтительнее, чтобы наоборот. Ему плевать, что тюрьмы заполнятся гомофобами.  Кстати, может быть, и нет.  Для убийц и бандитов в таких случаях найдутся "смягчающие" обстоятельства.  "_Душа просила!_" ::

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## Doomer

> Да, я хочу, чтобы не убивали,  не били морды, просто оставили в покое

 Для этого нужно, чтобы общество доросло.

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## Lampada

_Через дурака перерос, до умницы не дорос._ (поговорка)  "Отголоски гомофобного закона дошли до регионов. В Забайкальском крае решили сразу пойти дальше введения запрета пропаганды "нетрадиционных отношений", и задумались над тем, как перевоспитать "нарушителей". 
С предложением, которое могло бы стать сюжетом жесткого гей-порно с БДСМ-уклоном, выступил депутат регионального заксобрания Александр Михайлов. *По его мнению, лучшее средство - это публичная порка,* пишет Чита.Ru. 
Михайлов вскоре планирует предложить ввести закон, по которому десантники и казаки смогут наказывать гомосексуалов. "Я хочу призвать людей к здравому взгляду на этот позор. Мы должны бороться с такими вещами. В крае необходимо принять закон, по которому десантники имеют право хватать геев и тащить на площадь, где казаки будут хлестать их нагайками. На Руси испокон веку задница служила для воспитательных целей, а не для любовных утех - вот и нужно использовать её по назначению", - не скупился в выражениях депутат. 
Михайлов аргументировал свою жесткую позицию проблемами, которые влекут за собой "нетрадиционные отношения". По его мнению, они вредят обороноспособности страны, демографической обстановке и провоцируют преступления на сексуальной почве. 
Между тем на предложение депутата уже откликнулся ЛГБТ-активист и организатор Московского гей-парада Николай Алексеев. В своем Twitter он написал, что "*готов потерпеть порку*". Правда, при одном условии - если чиновникам будут отрубать руки за воровство. "Введение наказания в виде отрубания руки за воровство приведет к тому, что у нас будет много безруких депутатов и чиновников", - подчеркнул он, отметив, что "Средневековье должно быть во всем"."  http://bluesystem.ru/news_topic/?aid=9715

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## Lampada

Gay unfriendly. Бизнес, терпимый к геям, меняет ориентацию -  
"_...У теперешнего фейс-контроля сложная задача – стать gay unfriendly, то есть предстоит не просто отбирать на входе модную и красивую публику, но еще и с ходу определять их сексуальную ориентацию. А сейчас это сделать непросто. «Более брутальных ребят сейчас нигде не найдешь – гей-публика неотличима от остальных», – говорит бывший работник фейс-контроля BarryBar Анатолий Козырев. ..."_

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## Deborski

> Михайлов вскоре планирует предложить ввести закон, по которому десантники и казаки смогут наказывать гомосексуалов. "Я хочу призвать людей к здравому взгляду на этот позор. Мы должны бороться с такими вещами. В крае необходимо принять закон, по которому десантники имеют право хватать геев и тащить на площадь, где казаки будут хлестать их нагайками. На Руси испокон веку задница служила для воспитательных целей, а не для любовных утех - вот и нужно использовать её по назначению", - не скупился в выражениях депутат.

  ::  
Ужас,  просто.... это на самом деле?  Вот мой самый сильный страх, это что от этих законов против "пропаганды" - идёт хуже законы, как эти.  И что тогда?  Сначало публичная порка, и потом, что?  Публичная смертная казнь?  Лучше Николеев не говорить, пусть он даёт ими идею  ::

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## alexsms

> Михайлов вскоре планирует предложить ввести закон, по которому десантники и казаки смогут наказывать гомосексуалов.

 Тогда можно будет снимать новый мультик "Как казаки в гей-клуб ходили".  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-mkkBX2as4

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## Paul G.

Why don't you all start paying attention to the homophobic laws in the US (in some states)?  (Deleted. L.)   

> Вот мой самый сильный страх, это что от этих законов против "пропаганды" - идёт хуже законы, как эти.

 Those guys are merely radical conservatives. Here is not the US, so it's just blah-blah-blah.

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## Deborski

Unfortunately, even in America, gays continue to be persecuted, bullied, murdered and raped.  Iowa Youth Pastor Rapes Boys To 'Cure' Them Of Homosexuality, Won't Spend One Day In Prison - 
And, at least in this particular case, there has been no justice.   
"Rape the gay away" was also a popular idea among far-right conservatives in some African countries, where young lesbian girls were being raped by thugs who claimed it was "for their own good"... and they got away with it too, until the girls decided to fight back with this nifty little invention:

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## Юрка

> Очень правильное отношение: сиди в кладовке и не высовывайся. Держи своё существо под большим секретом, чтобы никто не догадался.

 Я вот живу и при этом ни разу не рекламировал свою гетеросексуальность. И не чувствую себя притеснённым. Почему другие должны жить иначе, менее скромно? Сексуальность человека вообще должна быть под контролем. Человеческой морали, например.
Или Вы так не считаете? Даже у животных она под контролем.  

> _Через дурака перерос, до умницы не дорос._ (поговорка)

 Лампада, Вы учительницей не работали? Мне кажется, что это у Вас профессиональное - оценивать умственные способности людей, хотя они этого у Вас и не просят.  

> Ужас, просто.... это на самом деле?

 Дебора, подобные популистские предложения не имеют шанса стать законом. Лампада тащит сюда всё, что льёт воду на её мельницу. 
Но вообще казаки когда-то были опорой страны. Нагайка (плётка казака) была довольно гуманным и быстрым способом поддержания порядка, если речь шла о небольших нарушениях порядка и морали. Казаки после 1917-го сильно пострадали как сословие. У них отобрали землю, они потеряли свой образ жизни, десятки тысяч были убиты. Сейчас они пытаются возрождаться и поэтому иногда озвучивают проверенные рецепты своих дедов. Их нужно воспринимать адекватно (с юмором).
Ну а если учесть, что Запад при помощи своих голубых бойцов собрался сделать у нас очередную цветную (на этот раз голубую) революцию, то предложение казаков выглядит совсем адекватным, и говорит лишь о том, что наше общество не потреяло способности сопротивляться вторжению извне. Вы же помните, что цветные революции в Египте и Тунисе начинали интеллектуалы при помощи интернета? Западу всё равно, кого бросить на баррикады. Геи тоже подойдут. Вот в этом случае казаки могут решить проблему очень быстро. А казаки - это не полиция и не армия, это народ.  

> in some African countries, where young lesbian girls were being raped by thugs who claimed it was "for their own good"...

 Вот куда Вас занесло. Закон всего лишь о запрете пропаганды, а Вы уже сравниваете это с изнасилованием лесбиянок. Тогда у меня вопрос: когда у нас принимался закон о защите прав некурящих, почему Вы не сравнивали это с изнасилованием курящих?  ::

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## Deborski

> Дебора, подобные популистские предложения не имеют шанса стать законом. Лампада тащит сюда всё, что льёт воду на её мельницу. 
> Но вообще казаки когда-то были опорой страны. Нагайка (плётка казака) была довольно гуманным и быстрым способом поддержания порядка, если речь шла о небольших нарушениях порядка и морали.

 Ну, а устройствы пыток средневековья тоже принесли "порядок" и "морали."  И такие устройствы были совершенно "традиционными."  Но это не значит, что такие вещи правы!   

> Вот куда Вас занесло. Закон всего лишь о запрете пропаганды, а Вы уже сравниваете это с изнасилованием лесбиянок. Тогда у меня вопрос: когда у нас принимался закон о защите прав некурящих, почему Вы не сравнивали это с изнасилованием курящих?

 Наобарот, я не сравню ваши законы с ничем.  Я просто покажу, что может быть, когда общество считает, что охота на ведьм будут утверждены.

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## Throbert McGee

> Он имеет в виду, если кто-то улыбается *без видимой причины*.
> Как известно, "смех без причины - признак дурачины" (proverb).

 I would think that if one of your friends is pointing a camera at you and saying "Smile!", *that bloody well qualifies as a видимая причина*!!! 
Unless it was an invisible CIA camera, I suppose... 
P.S. To put it another way, Юрка's argument that "Russians don't smile on the street" would be very logical IF someone were claiming that these "From Russia with Love" photos were random, "candid" photos of random passersby, taken by automatic traffic cameras!   
But I'm not claiming that the photos were "random", and neither is anyone else; we can all agree that the photos were posed. 
The disagreement is whether these photos were posed by "ordinary LGBT Russians" as part of an инициатива снизу, or if they were the product of a professional PR agency funded by foreign money. 
And I stand by my argument that nothing in the photos -- including the smiles -- suggests "expensive and foreign". Has Yurka never heard the word "flashmob"? This sort of инициатива снизу can be done very cheaply nowadays; all you need is a Facebook group, email access, some digital cameras, and perhaps one or two volunteers with free time to help organize it. In other words, everything needed is either free of cost, or very cheap. 
The only thing I don't understand is this: Does Yurka have:   *(a) A psychological need to believe in foreign conspiracies against Russia?*  
or   *(b) A psychological unwillingness to believe that LGBT Russians actually exist?* (I once read somewhere that during the Soviet period, there were some Russian linguists who argued that words like х*й and п**да must have been borrowed from a non-Slavic language like Turkic or Mongolian,_ because the native Slavic soul was (self-evidently) incapable of producing such filth_! Of course, I'm not saying that MOST Soviet linguists believed such nonsense -- I'm just saying that there will always be certain individuals who are ready to believe any sort of stupid theory if it fits their worldview.)

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## Throbert McGee

Just to make my previous post more clear: I am not denying that Russian LGBT activists are getting some help from foreign sources. Sometimes this help comes in the form of "strategic advice" (for example, suggestions on how to organize an email campaign efficiently); sometimes it comes in the form of money. I know quite well from reading gay newspapers in the States that some LGBT groups here have asked for monetary donations to assist Russian activists with the payment of police fines, for example. 
But donations from abroad do not make Russia's gay-rights movement "non native."

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## Throbert McGee

> Я вот живу и при этом ни разу *не рекламировал свою гетеросексуальность*.

 I don't know what the equivalent would be in Russian, but in English there's a saying:  "A fish doesn't know that it lives in water."          
In other words, when something completely surrounds us all the time, *we become psychologically blind to the fact that we see it everywhere*. (Many detective stories are based on this fact!)

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## Throbert McGee

И это -- своего рода "рекламирование гетеросексуальности":    
И сегодня, даже кодга на автобусах в некоторых западных городах радужные флажки появляются -- на всего 1-2 недели в июне --  гетеросексуальность всё таки уважают, рекламируют, и "водружают на пьедесатал" как социальный идеал, ВЕЗДЕ и ВСЕГДА. 
И всё-таки, примерно 1 из 40 детей окажется геем или лесбиянкой! А мы тоже с детства смотрели такие к/ф, как "Спящая Красавица" -- также, как вы гетеросексуал(ист)ы!

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## Lampada

> И это -- своего рода "рекламирование гетеросексуальности":  
> ...
> И сегодня, даже кодга на автобусах в некоторых западных городах радужные флажки появляются -- на всего 1-2 недели в июне --  гетеросексуальность всё таки уважают, рекламируют, и "водружают на пьедесатал" как социальный идеал, ВЕЗДЕ и ВСЕГДА. 
> И всё-таки, примерно 1 из 40 детей окажется геем или лесбиянкой! А мы тоже с детства смотрели такие к/ф, как "Спящая Красавица" -- также, как вы гетеросексуал(ист)ы!

 Где-то я читала, что гомосексуалистов гораздо больше чем 1 из 40, просто понятно, что большинство скрытых.  Ой, какие смешные вопросы народ задаёт! "Откуда у нас в стране столько геев и лезбиянок?", "Почему среди геев столько талантливых людей"  и т.п.  Вот тоже смешно: 10 вопросов П

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## Throbert McGee

Короче -- the one most important thing I wish that Юрка and Eledhwen and Hanna and others would understand is this: these Russian LGBT people holding the "From Russia with Love" posters are very much *ВАШИ*.  
Они "рекламируют" свою ориентацию, потому что...
...им надоело жить в подполье. 
Им надоело жить во тьме, *ради чужого суеверного утверждения*, что любовь не может быть чистой, истинной, и достойной, если у влюбленных половые органы одного типа.  *Им надоело менять местоимения -- "он" за "она" или "она" за "он"* -- когда речь идёт о своей "лучшей половиной".   
Им надоело смотреть молча, пассивно и бессильно, как других ЛГБТ-людей обижают. 
Короче, им всё это надаело, и эти молодцы готовы "играть в мутанты-супергерои" и говорить гомофобным землякам: "Знаете, из-за таких людей, как вы, мы боялись идти в школу..." 
Неужели вы думаете, что без американцев, ЛГБТ-россияне никак не могли бы прийти к очевидному выводу, что провести всю жизнь в подполье -- это *totally sucks*???

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## Throbert McGee

> Где-то я читала, что гомосексуалистов гораздо больше чем 1 из 40, просто понятно, что большинство скрытых.  Ой, какие смешные вопросы народ задаёт! "Откуда у нас в стране столько геев и лезбиянок?", "Почему среди геев столько талантливых людей"  и т.п.  Вот тоже смешно: 10 вопросов П

 Ссылка прикольная -- спасибо! (I've downloaded the page to read at my leisure... alas, I'm a lot slower in Russian!)

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## Deborski

> Короче -- the one most important thing I wish that Юрка and Eledhwen and Hanna and others would understand is this: these Russian LGBT people holding the "From Russia with Love" posters are very much *ВАШИ*.  
> Они "рекламируют" свою ориентацию, потому что...
> ...им надоело жить в подполье. 
> Им надоело жить во тьме, *ради чужого суеверного утверждения*, что любовь не может быть чистой, истинной, и достойной, если у влюбленных половые органы одного типа.  *Им надоело менять местоимения -- "он" за "она" или "она" за "он"* -- когда речь идёт о своей "лучшей половиной".   
> Им надоело смотреть молча, пассивно и бессильно, как других ЛГБТ-людей обижают. 
> Короче, им всё это надаело, и эти молодцы готовы "играть в мутанты-супергерои" и говорить гомофобным землякам: "Знаете, из-за таких людей, как вы, мы боялись идти в школу..." 
> Неужели вы думаете, что без американцев, ЛГБТ-россияне никак не могли бы прийти к очевидному выводу, что провести всю жизнь в подполье -- это *totally sucks*???

 Unfortunately, I think that Russia will have to follow its own path with regard to gay rights.  I say "unfortunately" because we have already been down this road in America and we have seen what happens when homophobia is condoned and accepted by society.  Innocent people have been persecuted, bullied, killed, raped, tortured and so forth.  I tried to share the Matthew Shepard story earlier, not because I am trying to spread "propaganda" but because I wish Russians would just look and see what has already happened here, so that they could save themselves the same heartache and suffering. 
But I believe that in the end, goodness and love will prevail.  I know that Russian mothers love their children as fiercely as American mothers love theirs, so when gay teenagers are bullied and murdered, the mothers of these children will eventually protest for the lives of their babies - just as Matthew Shepard's mom did.  She and his father were both mildly homophobic themselves, but their son's horrific death forced them to come to terms with their own prejudices.  It was a long and bitter process, which Russia will simply have to experience on its own. 
As far as that goes, the fight for gay equality is far from over in America, where gay kids are still bullied to the point where many of them commit suicide because they cannot change what they are, and life simply becomes too painful to go on.  I will continue to fight for their right to be who they are without fear of persecution, but we have a long way to go even if we have managed to declare DOMA unconstitutional and allow gay marriage in some states.   
Russia's battle will be its own.  I only hope that the good people will condemn those who are so hateful that they would propose things like publicly humiliating and whipping people for being gay.  I cannot fathom how anyone except the most ignorant of souls could support something as barbaric as that.  But then, those who are ignorant are often the last to realize it, and it often takes a deep personal loss before they can finally learn empathy.

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## Throbert McGee

One other point for Hanna, Юрка, Eledhwen, et al.  Do you know what the word "marranos"/"марраны" means? If you don't know the term and its history, it might be worth your time to read the links. 
Historically, in Spain, a certain category of people were forced to live as "marranos" for one reason only -- because their very presence made the majority of other people emotionally uncomfortable. They weren't a threat to the lives of the majority; they weren't harming the majority in any REAL way; the only thing they offended were the sensibilities of the majority. 
That was their offense: they didn't quite fit into the worldview of the majority. But why should the majority have the right to play at being Прокруст?

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## Throbert McGee

> Unfortunately, I think that Russia will have to follow its own path with regard to gay rights.  I say "unfortunately" because we have already been down this road in America and we have seen what happens when homophobia is condoned and accepted by society.

 Well, as I've said, it could be fortunate if Russia follows its own path, because we've ALSO seen in America what happened когда ЛГБТ-Сообщество "выплеснуло и ребёнка вместе с водой". 
The "bathwater", in this case, being homophobia, and the "baby" being some elementary sense of self-restraint and sexual boundaries.  
For every Matthew Shepherd, there are thousands of young gay men who will be on expensive and toxic anti-viral pills for the rest of their lives because they believed that "it's more loving and intimate and exciting _without a condom_" -- and they chose to believe this because OTHER GAY MEN told them it was so.

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## Deborski

> Well, as I've said, it could be fortunate if Russia follows its own path, because we've ALSO seen in America what happened когда ЛГБТ-Сообщество "выплеснуло и ребёнка вместе с водой". 
> The "bathwater", in this case, being homophobia, and the "baby" being some elementary sense of self-restraint and sexual boundaries.  
> For every Matthew Shepherd, there are thousands of young gay men who will be on expensive and toxic anti-viral pills for the rest of their lives because they believed that "it's more loving and intimate and exciting _without a condom_" -- and they chose to believe this because OTHER GAY MEN told them it was so.

 If Russia can figure it out with less suffering, and get it better than we did, then I hope they succeed.  I would be the last person to claim that America has done everything right.

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## Deborski

I was reading an article about Soviet discotheques when I stumbled upon the fascinating Soviet performer Sergey Minaev:    
In reading a little about him, apparently he was known for performing very avant-garde and even wearing skirts, as he does in this video, and yet he had a huge following even in Soviet Russia.  In later years, he became known for championing gay rights, but he was criticized as a hypocrite for never coming out of the closet himself. 
It makes me wonder how the Soviet climate with regard to gay rights compares to the modern Russian climate.  Thoughts, anyone?

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## Deborski

Meanwhile, in Texas:  Public erections at Dallas pride will be charged as felonies, police say | Gay Star News

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## Deborski

Russian video reportedly shows gay student beaten and raped at gunpoint | The Raw Story 
This story is making the rounds in the US right now and unfortunately, it is causing a lot of people to react very negatively to Russia.  American perceptions of Russian homophobia are a big reason why there is so much anger and hatred towards Putin in the US right now.  
I am not saying I agree with them, in fact quite the opposite.  But these kinds of stories are not helping Russia's image in the world.

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## Lampada

I am not clicking on that. ::

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## Lampada

*Закон о пропаганде гомосексуализма - Большой город  Закон подлости.*  _"...Закон направлен против гомосексуалистов, даже трансгендеров — бедные, эти-то тут вообще ни при чем, и так несчастные. Против транссексуалов. Раньше во всем были виноваты евреи, теперь во всем виноваты геи. ..."_

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## Deborski

> I am not clicking on that.

 I didn't watch it either.  The description was revolting enough.  I don't need to actually see it happening.  Я тебя хорошо понимаю )))

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## Throbert McGee

> Meanwhile, in Texas:  Public erections at Dallas pride will be charged as felonies, police say | Gay Star News

 GOOD!

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## Throbert McGee

> Russian video reportedly shows gay student beaten and raped at gunpoint | The Raw Story

 It should be noted that this was apparently an "Uzbek-on-Uzbek" crime, which adds another dimension to it. Or, then again, maybe it's just the same "dimension" -- straight Russians are particularly offended by Russian gays, and straight Uzbeks are particularly offended by Uzbek gays, etc. (And before anyone protests, I DON'T MEAN TO COMPARE THE RUSSIAN "GAY PROPAGANDA" LAW WITH RAPE!!! I'm only comparing the "you're bringing shame upon our people" part.)

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## Юрка

> A psychological unwillingness to believe that LGBT Russians actually exist?

 Я верю, что они на самом деле существуют в России. И что это меняет?  

> A psychological need to believe in foreign conspiracies against Russia?

 В заговор не верю, так как всё давно делается открыто. 
Вы в курсе, что в 20-ом веке была интервенция США на территорию России (города Мурманск и Владивосток), и там американцы строили для нас концентрационный лагеря? Короче, кого бы Америка ни поддерживала в нашем обществе, я автоматически считаю их иностранными агентами. 
P.S. Видели проект, поддержанный США: Соединённые Штаты Сибири? Вроде чистое искусство, но платит Америка, а рисуют такое (явная поддержка территориального сепаратизма):   muratov_flag.jpg

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## Юрка

> "A fish doesn't know that it lives in water."

 Ну, это рыба. А для человека с интеллектом нет ничего невозможного.  ::   

> In other words, when something completely surrounds us all the time, we become psychologically blind to the fact that we see it everywhere. (Many detective stories are based on this fact!)

 Мы живём в стране, в которой много культур. Поэтому есть возможность сравнить. Например, на традиционной чеченской свадьбе нет жениха с невестой. Присутствуют только родственники с обеих сторон. Вопрос: почему? А потому, что люди не хотят рекламировать то, что принято рекламировать в западном обществе (гетеросексуальные отношения). 
Другой пример: попытка в современной чеченской школе внедрить традицию дарить открытки "валентинки" вызвала протест родителей, как несоответствующая морали чеченского народа. 
Что касается лично моего отношения к свадебному ритуалу, то оно следующее. 
Когда-то этот ритуал имел глубокий религиозный смысл: девушке меняли имя, расплетали косу и т.д. Кроме того, ритуал имел социальный смысл: девушка меняла племя (род, клан). 
Но уже к 19-ому веку (и даже раньше) свадьба потеряла религиозный смысл и превратилась в демонстрацию богатства и пьянку.
Сейчас модно превращать свадьбу в клоунаду (свадьба во время прыжка с парашютом, свадьба на велосипедах, свадьба в аквалангах, свадьба в Лас-Вегасе и т.д.). То есть свадьба теряет смыслы и вырождается. Поэтому я считаю, что от неё можно безболезненно отказаться, оганичившись чем-то очень камерным (например, ужин на двоих), и это ни на что не повлияет.  

> И всё-таки, примерно 1 из 40 детей окажется геем или лесбиянкой! А мы тоже с детства смотрели такие к/ф, как "Спящая Красавица" -- также, как вы гетеросексуал(ист)ы!

 А у меня в детстве была игрушечная лошадка с меня ростом. И я к ней испытывал определённые эротические чувства. Так что, мог бы стать зоофилом, если бы не сменил игрушки. Так что, воспитание влияет на выбор человека.  ::

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## CoffeeCup

> "A fish doesn't know that it lives in water."

 A fish doesn't know that it lives in water. 
Well, yes, but does the fish know that it was born? 
People don't live forever. And the world doesn't exist only for the lifespan of a single person who observes the life from the cave of his own mind. People die and to survive the humanity MUST produce newly born human beings. As the sky is blue and the water is wet, the new birth can be given ONLY by a female human cooperated with a male human. Giving a birth for a woman means a lot of risk: risk of health damage and death, risk to lose job, risk to lose all the social activity and social connections, risk to ruin her own entire life. But despite all the risks the birth is urgently needed. This is a strategic need for the entire humankind to survive. And the only encouraging for a woman to risk her life in the name of the society is actually a small ring of a shining metal on her finger, the white dress which she will put on only once, and the hand of a male who is the only possible insurance of her risking her life for the entire humanity to survive. 
Do you believe that stripping away these tiny signs of respect (which are probably the only things that keep the life on the Earth), by applying them to all the others who want to behave the same way but are not ready in any way to provide newly born human beings, will encourage the female humans to give more births? 
Since we are in the Olympic thread: wouldn't the showing-up of the gays behaving like a couple cause the same effect if the sportsmen participating in the Olympic game, all of them, would be granted with the gold medals despite that the winner was only one? Would the Olympic Games survive as a competition if the "PC" will cause us not to honor the winner, who put their life to achieve the significant results, but to honor all the participants despite their achievements?

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## Deborski

> Do you believe that stripping away these tiny signs of respect (which are probably the only things that keep the life on the Earth), by applying them to all the others who want to behave the same way but are not ready in any way to provide newly born human beings, will encourage the female humans to give more births?

 Speaking as a woman, I do not feel in the slightest that my "signs of respect" have been "stripped away" by gays finally being allowed to experience the same marital hell which heterosexuals "enjoy."  So if gays want to get married, and bicker and quarrel and get divorced and have custody battles and legal drama - by all means let them! 
My "respect" as a female has been stripped away more by a society which praises all that is male and masculine, and shames all that is female and feminine.   
Aggressiveness, toughness, ambition, power - these are masculine traits which society glorifies 
Passiveness, gentleness, sensitivity, compassion, cooperation - these are feminine traits which society only pays lip service to, but does not really honor. 
I do not believe that granting equality to another minority group in any way hurts my own fight for equality as a woman.  And I also do not believe that my value as a human being who happens to be female, should be relegated to being a vessel for a man's sperm and incubating baby humans, either. 
I spent long years as a journalist and witnessed so many things in my life that I could never describe all of them even if I wrote a thousand books.  But I never had children.  Some people look at me and think that is sad and shameful, but I do not feel ashamed for my life.  Why should every woman consider it her "duty" to have children?  There are already eight billion human beings on this planet.  That number is so vast it is almost impossible to calculate.  We are already overgrazing our planet and yet people are screaming "let's have MORE babies!" as if we had a whole other planet to unleash our population on. 
There is nothing wrong with choosing not to have babies.  And I do not believe that my entire value in the world is summed up in a wedding ring or a white dress. 
If those are the only tokens of appreciation society can bestow on a woman, then the problem is not gays, the problem is SOCIETY and its backward and male-identified view of women as sex objects, brood-mares and cleaning maids.

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## Lampada

omg! Celebrity gossip, news photos, babies, couples, hotties, and more - omg! from Yahoo   Cher Turns Down Offer to Perform at Russian Olympics Because of Homophobic Laws  
I wonder who is big oligarch?

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## Throbert McGee

> Since we are in the Olympic thread: wouldn't the showing-up of the gays behaving like a couple cause the same effect if the sportsmen participating in the Olympic game, all of them, would be granted with the gold medals despite that the winner was only one?

 At the Olympics, they don't give out gold medals only; they also award silver and bronze medals. This doesn't take away from the honor of the gold medalist; it simply recognizes that the 2nd and 3rd place athletes also gave world-class performances.  
As I've argued previously, I don't believe it's a great idea to call same-sex relationships "marriage." As a gay person, I'm not interested in imitating the traditions of heterosexual weddings with two little grooms or brides on top of a big cake; and if I were in a long-term relationship with a man, I certainly wouldn't think that one of us is "playing husband" and the other is "playing wife."  
But nonetheless, I think that same-sex couples (as citizens) can claim a right to have their relationship legally recognized by the government to which they pay their taxes. And I have no problem with saying that traditional heterosexual marriage is the "gold standard," while same-sex unions are a "silver standard." I don't believe that it degrades me or my relationships to call it "silver," and to recognize that heterosexual procreation is MORE IMPORTANT for society as a whole.

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## Deborski

> omg! Celebrity gossip, news photos, babies, couples, hotties, and more - omg! from Yahoo   Cher Turns Down Offer to Perform at Russian Olympics Because of Homophobic Laws  
> I wonder who is big oligarch?

 I saw that story and it struck me that Cher could have agreed to perform, and that she could have used the opportunity to make a statement by dedicating her song to Russia's gays and lesbians.  What would they do, arrest her?

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## Throbert McGee

> I saw that story and it struck me that Cher could have agreed to perform, and that she could have used the opportunity to *make a statement* by dedicating her song to Russia's gays and lesbians.

 Make a statement to _whom_? Among some gay men -- at least in the English-speaking world -- Cher has a sort of cult following as a "Diva," but do most non-gay Russians today even care who she is or what she says? (Her last really big hit, "Believe," was in the late 1990s.) So, once again, is the point of all this *to make LGBT Westerners feel flattered, special, important* as they're watching the Olympics on television in Europe and North America? 
Or is the point of this so that Cher can sell tickets to American gay men when they bring her out in a motorized wheelchair for her "No, Wait, THIS Is My Farewell Tour and This Time I Really Mean That It's the Last One", sometime around 2035?  
I thought the goal was to be helpful to LGBT people within Russian society! 
PS. Okay, hmmm... I just Googled and apparently she did tour Moscow and St. Petersburg in 2004. 
PPS. And, admittedly, there will always be a place in my heart for "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves". But even so, would she really be able to change-the-hearts-and-minds of the Russian public?   
PPPS. But on the other hand, I think it's a great idea in a _South Park_-ish way, in the spirit of Mecha-Streisand.

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## Deborski

> Make a statement to _whom_? Among some gay men -- at least in the English-speaking world -- Cher has a sort of cult following as a "Diva," but do most non-gay Russians today even care who she is or what she says? (Her last really big hit, "Believe," was in the late 1990s.) So, once again, is the point of all this *to make LGBT Westerners feel flattered, special, important* as they're watching the Olympics on television in Europe and North America?

 *shrug*  It was just a thought. 
Guess I can't win for losing. 
Bowing out of the discussion again.  No matter who I support, I am wrong.

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## Lampada

> ...Guess I can't win for losing. 
> Bowing out of the discussion again.  No matter who I support, I am wrong.

 Потому что можно доказать, что угодно, точно также можно доказать и обратное (софизм).  Just have to pick your fights or side. ::

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## maxmixiv

> Aggressiveness, toughness, ambition, power - these are masculine traits which society glorifies

 I think women are muuuch tougher, even if they seem "белые и пушистые". And as ambitious as men. And there will not be planes, TV, Internet, ... without ambitions.

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## alexsms

> I think women are muuuch tougher, even if they seem "белые и пушистые". And as ambitious as men. And there will not be planes, TV, Internet, ... without ambitions.

 I'd rather say more practical and down-to-earth.

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## maxmixiv

I wouldn't say so.  ::  Otherwise how would you explain jewelry?
But in relation to relationships - may be.

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## CoffeeCup

> I also do not believe that my value as a human being who happens to be female, should be relegated to being a vessel for a man's sperm and incubating baby humans, either.

 You got me totally wrong. 
I've not stated what a woman should or should not do, must a woman to have babies or not. It is totally her own business only. I addressed the attitude of the society to the Public Display of Affection (PDA) for straights and gays. The wedding ring and holding hand is also a sort of PDA under the discussion. 
The different attitude rises from the different expected income to the society. If the society sees a PDA of a heterosexual couple it expects the income in the form of a baby (not every PDA results in this but some amount of it does). Seeing it many time society became reflecting unconsciously that PDA means babies and encourage the PDA (of course if it is a sort of a weird society that needs babies). The more PDA, the more babies. So the PDA encouragement is a sort of benefit which was granted by a society to a heterosexual couple for a new baby to be born. Then if the society sees the PDA of a homosexual couple it reflects about babies but at the same time realizes that there will not be any babies at all. So the society thinks that it was cheated and discourages the homosexual PDA (especially if the homosexual couples demand the same benefits that were granted to the heterosexual couples for creating babies). If a couple disclosures its PDA to the society then the couple gives a message to the society and the society responds to the message back whether it approves the message or not. The society addresses its strategic needs. There is nothing homophobic or antigay in this, this is just about the public display of affection and its influence onto the society.   

> I do not believe that granting equality to another minority group in any way hurts my own fight for equality as a woman.

 It is not about granting equality. It is about granting benefits (PDA encouragement) for some achievements (babies). If somebody did something he got some benefits (or salary). What kind of equality can be if someone did nothing and ask for the same benefits (or salary)?

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## Юрка

Есть некий парадокс в том, что Америка не любит коммунизм, но любит искать обиженных людей. Тактика коммунистических партий как раз в этом и состоит: найти обиженных и сделать революцию их силами (пролетариат, уголовники и т.д.). У нас в России идеи социализма и защиты угнетённых была популярна даже среди дворян. Но только до революции и гражданской войны. Но сейчас у многих россиян есть иммунитет от революций. Когда КПРФ говорит, что рабочего человека притесняют и поэтому нужно менять власть, я иду и голосую за Единую Россию. Когда США говорят мне, что в РФ обижают ЛГБТ (а также сирот), то у меня срабатывает тот же рефлекс.

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## Lampada

> ... я иду и голосую за Единую Россию....   то у меня срабатывает тот же рефлекс.

 _Корреспондент: - За кого вы будете голосовать на выборах? Mужик: - Да зае... Корреспондент, перебивая: - Правильно! За "Единую Россию"!_

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## Deborski

> I think women are muuuch tougher, even if they seem "белые и пушистые". And as ambitious as men. And there will not be planes, TV, Internet, ... without ambitions.

 There is no question that women can be tough, ambitious and all the other masculine traits can also be applied.  I'm not saying women can't be tough.  I'm saying that masculine qualities are the ones society* values.*  The other qualities, compassion, kindness, nurturing, gentleness, cooperation - are equally important but society only gives them lip service.  In reality, the compassionate one is not the one promoted at work, the ambitious one is.  In reality, our countries do not cooperate with each other, they compete and try to out-do each other.  I am saying that I think our world would be a better place if society valued feminine qualities as highly as it values masculine qualities.

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## Deborski

> I wouldn't say so.  Otherwise how would you explain jewelry?
> But in relation to relationships - may be.

 I have never owned an expensive piece of jewelry in my life, or a real diamond.

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## Deborski

> You got me totally wrong. 
> I've not stated what a woman should or should not do, must a woman to have babies or not. It is totally her own business only. I addressed the attitude of the society to the Public Display of Affection (PDA) for straights and gays. The wedding ring and holding hand is also a sort of PDA under the discussion. 
> It is not about granting equality. It is about granting benefits (PDA encouragement) for some achievements (babies). If somebody did something he got some benefits (or salary). What kind of equality can be if someone did nothing and ask for the same benefits (or salary)?

 Let's agree to disagree.  I will just say that I do not understand any mindset which thinks that "public displays of affection" are something that should be "allowed" or "not allowed."   
When I was a lonely 20-something living in Leningrad, I saw many young Soviet couples kissing (and more) on the late-night metro and it didn't make me think "oh how sweet, they will have a baby!" It made me think, "God I am lonely.  I wish I had a boyfriend!"  Seeing two men kiss does not in any way threaten me as a heterosexual woman.  If they want to kiss, I don't care and it doesn't bother me anymore than watching those young couples making out in Russia did.  I'd rather people not have sex in public of course, I don't need to watch the entire act, but people kissing doesn't offend me.  I've dated guys in both Russia and America, and the American guys were actually the least likely to kiss me in public.  One of my American boyfriends also referred to this as "PDA's" and he was embarrassed if I took his hand in public.  I've never understood that mindset and I never will.  To each, their own.  As for me, I'd like to see more people kissing and holding hands in public and I find that far less offensive than people who fight in public, or rage and belittle each other in public, or humiliate someone in public.

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## Throbert McGee

> Вот тоже смешно: 10 вопросов П

 I enjoyed reading this, but I certainly don't agree with everything the author said! 
Regarding the percentage of the population that is bisexual, Kinsey and his disciples argued that sexual orientation can be mapped onto a standard-looking bell curve something like this:   
That is, with a small number of "total homosexuals" on the left, an approximately equal number of "total heterosexuals" on the right, and a huge mountain of "equal-opportunity bisexuals" in the middle. 
But other researchers have claimed that the actual bell curve for orientation is shaped more like this -- it's upside-down, and also asymmetric from left to right:   
Here, there's a small mountain of homosexuals on the left, a larger mountain of heterosexuals on the right, and a VALLEY of bisexuals in between -- in other words, bisexuals are RARER than homosexuals. (Although in reality, the "hetero peak" is possibly ten times as tall as the "homo peak" -- not twice as tall, as in this example.) 
If Kinsey was correct, then there is possibly a huge number of "hidden bisexuals", like the enormous mass of an iceberg underneath the water, though we can only see the tip of the iceberg. But if the "inverse bell curve" model is correct, then the 2-5% estimate for the number of homosexuals represents most of the non-heterosexual population -- in other words, there's NOT a gigantic number of bisexuals who are waiting to come out of the closet as soon as same-sex marriage is legalized, and thereby cause a demographic catastrophe. 
As to which bell curve more closely represents reality -- honestly, I have no idea.  
PS. I'd heard some of the author's points made by other people in English, but two things from the link that were totally new to me: First, the funny-but-disgusting neologism *гетераст* -- obviously meant to be an equivalent to the rude slang word "breeder" used by English-speaking gays, but to me it sounds even worse! 
Second, the author implies that King Saul may have felt a homoerotic attraction to David: ""Он [Давид] был белокур, с красивыми глазами и приятным лицем. [...] и очень понравился ему [Саулу]" (1 Samuel 16:12 and16:21). I have certainly heard the hypothesis that David and Jonathan (Saul's son) may have had a "chastely homoerotic" affection between them, or that D & J were even lovers. But this is the first time I've seen the suggestion that there was a "triangle of jealousy" between Saul, Jonathan, and David. The Bible makes clear enough that King Saul *envied* David because he knew that David was destined to be a greater king, but of course зависть (envy) and  ревность (jealousy) are two different things. And, honestly, I think that the author misquotes the verses to make it seem that Saul took special notice of David's good looks. 
PPS. If you're looking for an "ancient gay romance", I think the textual evidence is much stronger for Gilgamesh and Enkidu than for Jonathan and David. (Even Gilgamesh and Enkidu can be interpreted as platonic heterosexual friends, not male lovers -- but the "hints" of homosexuality are a bit louder in that case.)

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## Throbert McGee

> If you're looking for an "ancient gay romance"

 And even if you're NOT looking for one, this amazing 11-minute "claymation" film (UK, 1995, directed by Barry Purves) depicting Achilles and Patroklos as living statues is definitely worth a look:    
It's not really "safe for children" and would presumably give Putin a heart attack -- although if you've seen the puppet sex in _Team America_, by comparison THIS looks like «Крокодил Гена»!  ::

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## Lampada

*BREAKING NEWS* Thursday, September 19, 2013 10:55 AM EDT     Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion          _...“Some of the things in it really surprised me,” Father Martin said. “He seems even more of a free-thinker than I thought — creative, experimental, willing to live on the margins, push boundaries back a little bit.”..._

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## Lampada

Transgender teen crowned homecoming queen at O.C. high school - latimes.com

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## Valda

Вот это да. Необходимо мужество даже участвовать для таких как она... ой, знаешь... слово "мужество" как-то... неловко вышло..  но во всяком случае, я её поздравляю!

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## Throbert McGee

A little detail I just read in the _Washington Blade_ (easily one of the "top five" LGBT newspapers in America) -- a five-person Russian delegation visiting the US to discuss planning for the Sochi Olympics will include an open lesbian named Эльвина Ювакаева, who is a co-president of the Федерации ЛГБТ-Спорта России (the other president is figure skater Константин Яблоцкий).  
Apparently the decision to include her in the delegation was recently made by the US Embassy in Moscow -- undoubtedly as a political response to the propaganda law. However, Yuvakaeva was careful to avoid criticism of the Russian government -- instead stressing that her group was "officially registered" as an NGO in Russia:   

> Yuvakaeva said the Russian LGBT Sport Federation was founded in 2010 as a non-political organization with the purpose of promoting and facilitating sports among Russia’s LGBT community. Among other things, it serves as a representative of the Russian LGBT community on the board of the International Federation of Gay Games. 
> She said Russian authorities have not sought to revoke the group’s registration following the approval earlier this year by the Russian parliament of the gay propaganda law, which Russian officials have said is aimed at protecting minors from homosexuality. 
> According to Yuvakaeva, authorities consider the Russia LGBT Sport Federation to be in compliance with both the propaganda law and a separate law banning certain organizations from receiving money from foreign groups or governments on grounds that the Russian sports group is non-political. 
> “The only thing is we couldn’t invite minors to our events and we wouldn’t spread some information among minors about our events because it’s outlawed,” she said in discussing the impact of the gay propaganda law on her group.

 I wonder if other gay activists inside and outside of Russia will accuse her of being "Putin's poodle" (which was said about Nikolai Alekseev). And I wonder whether her organization will get in trouble with the "foreign agent" law because the US State Department was directly involved in issuing the invitation. (In other words, I certainly would never claim that THIS is an инициатива снизу!) 
On the other hand, I would emphasize that so far, this appears to have been covered only in the Gay Media. (And it seems that neither Yuvakaeva nor Yablotsky are major sports-celebrities in Russia.)

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## Throbert McGee

And incidentally, Yuvakaeva said she opposed any boycott or big rainbow-flag demonstration -- instead she suggested that Olympic athletes *of any sexual orientation* could simply hold hands with another athlete of the same sex. In other words, the "We are all Spartacus!" approach:      ::

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## Throbert McGee

PS. Another equally (in)famous scene from _Spartacus_ -- the aristocratic Roman general Crassus (Laurence Olivier) asks his slave Antoninus (Tony Curtis) "Do you prefer to eat *snails* or *oysters*?" But of course we know he's not REALLY talking about улитки and устрицы, ho-ho-ho!    
Trivia: In 1960, this scene was far too suggestive for Hollywood's team of self-censors, and so it was cut out and not publicly screened for decades. When the film was restored in the 1990s, Olivier was already dead and the audio for this scene had been lost -- so they brought in none other than Anthony Hopkins to dub Olivier's lines! Listen to the "snails or oysters" part and you can easily imagine Hannibal Lecter saying it!  ::

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## Lampada



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## Deborski

The Global Divide on Homosexuality | Pew Global Attitudes Project

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## Throbert McGee

The only problem with this Pew survey is that the word "homosexuality" may be subject to difficulties or ambiguities in translation.* And also the words "accept," and "society," and "should". Though at least the question mark is universally understood, I suppose! 
*In some cultures, for example, a "homosexual" is widely understood to be a male who takes the so-called пассивную роль when having sex with another male -- but people might not automatically assume that a male in the "active" role is a "homosexual," unless the question-asker *specifically* says something like: "By the expression _homosexual behavior_, I mean to include both the active and passive roles." For that matter, neither ancient Hebrew nor ancient Greek had a general term for "homosexual" that included both the male/male and female/female varieties; they were conceptualized separately. And I would expect that when some Russians HEAR the term "гомосексуализм", they might THINK "мужеложество", for example. (The latter word has had several different definitions at different times in Russian history, but according to Wikipedia, "мужеложество" always implied "male/male" -- as its etymology suggest -- and never included lesbian contacts.) 
Now multiply these basic problems of translation and connotation by more than a dozen different languages, and it's hard to be sure how meaningful the poll results actually were.

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## Throbert McGee

To put it another way, if you mean to ask about public attitudes towards same-sex sodomy between men OR between women, you need to use the actual phrase "same-sex sodomy between men OR between women" in the poll; (if you only say "sodomy", some people will assume you mean the male-male kind only. And if you mean to ask about attitudes towards legalized same-sex marriage, you need to use the actual phrase "legalized same-sex marriage"; you can't say "should same-sex unions be allowed," because "legalizing" and "allowing" aren't quite the same thing, and "marriage" and "unions" aren't the same thing. 
And you can't use say broad umbrella terms like "homosexuality" or "non-traditional sexual relations" and assume that the other person will understand it in the same sense that you meant it -- not if you want to get valid cross-cultural, cross-language results!

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## maxmixiv

Ух ты, нас в Европу определили! А Нигерия всех сделала.  ::

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## dtrq

> Ух ты, нас в Европу определили!

 Если бы Турцию тоже определили в Европу (тоже спорный момент, как и с Россией), мы бы не на последнем месте были =) 
Кстати, вроде бы в Америке и Азии Россию считают Европой без вопросов, в Европе, наверное, 50\50, а вот в самой России, похоже, мало кто вообще догадывается, что кто-то где-то Россию называет Европой =)

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## Deborski

Anti-LGBT pastor running for Massachusetts gov. because ‘homosexuality is condemned by God’ | The Raw Story   

> A Christian evangelical pastor who has been sued for his connection to Uganda’s so-called “kill the gays” bill and taken credit for Russia’s law against homosexual “propaganda” announced that he was running for governor of Massachusetts. 
> In a statement earlier this week, Scott Lively said that prayer had convinced him to make a bid for Massachusetts governor. 
> “The people of this state need a candidate who can clearly and unapologetically articulate Biblical values without fear or compromise,” Lively remarked. “They need a candidate who will tell the simple truth that abortion is murder, and homosexuality is condemned by God (but that Jesus forgives and heals those who repent). That parents and not the state have authority over their children, because government is our servant and not our master. That socialism is slavery and humanism breeds corruption.” 
> “But mostly they need a leader who will remind the people that Massachusetts was founded upon Jesus Christ and the Bible and that our future security and prosperity depend on restoring our trust in Him.” 
> The pastor, whose Abiding Truth Ministries has been deemed a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, went on to blame both Democrats and Republicans for legalizing same sex marriage, “promoting homosexuality to children in the public schools” and allowing “child-killing through abortion.” 
> “They both embrace and champion the culture of death,” he noted. “With these two liberal parties splitting the liberal vote, a true conservative independent could win the governorship.” 
> But Lively said he knew that winning was unlikely without some divine intervention. 
> “[I]t would take a miracle from God for Scott Lively to become Governor of Massachusetts — and I wouldn’t want it any other way,” the pastor insisted. 
> In August, a federal judge ruled that Lively must stand trial for crimes against humanity for his role in inciting the persecution of LGBT people in Uganda.

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## Throbert McGee

Once a non-believer came before the Rev. Scott Lively, and said unto him, "Reverend, can you summarize the whole Christian Bible while I'm standing on one foot?" 
The Rev. Lively smiled calmly and replied, *"If a man lies down with another man as with a woman, it is an abomination; their blood shall be upon them and they shall both be put to death. This is the whole of the Law, all the rest is commentary -- go, then, and study."* 
The non-believer said, "What the fucking fuck are you fucking talking about?!" and decided instead to take a class in Chinese cooking, where he made several new friends, and they all lived happily ever after. (Including the Rev. Lively, who was always happy when people asked him about the Bible.)   ::

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## Lampada

> This is an excellent movie about Matthew Shepard, the gay man who was beaten, tortured and killed in Colorado several years ago.  His story was a major turning point for the gay rights movement in the United States.  In my younger years, I was homophobic (thanks to religious indoctrination) and as I grew older I remained ambivalent.  But this story really changed my thinking on many levels.  I realized that gay people are who they are, and beating them or persecuting will never change them.  I fear that Russia will have a few Matthew Shepards of its own before attitudes in Russia change.  But I do have faith that most Russians do not approve of violence or cruelty, and that eventually Russia's attitude towards gay people will change.  It may be many years before this happens, but I believe that some day it will. 
> I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people.  We have a long way to go even here, where gay people are gaining rights, because gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes even in our "land of the free."  And I am always the first to say when I think America does wrong - such as in the case of our global military aggression.  But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things.  One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

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## Hanna

> The Global Divide on Homosexuality | Pew Global Attitudes Project

 I conclude that people who feel strongly about gay rights should go and complain in places like Nigeria and Jordan, rather than Russia.

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## Valda

> I conclude that people who feel strongly about gay rights should go and complain in places like Nigeria and Jordan, rather than Russia.

 Люди будут жаловать где они живут. При чем тут Нигерия если они живут в России? Они хотят право в своих странах.

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## alexsms

> I conclude that people who feel strongly about gay rights should go and complain in places like Nigeria and Jordan, rather than Russia.

 Over 70% is traditionally considered a majority with regard to opinion polls and sociologial analyses.  
So with 74% Russia is above this threshold.  
It's interesting that China's figure is 57 (considered as authoritarian, one-party system, not a democracy). 
Statistically speaking, it's also worth mentioning that (given that Russia is assumed as Europe) Russia's NO figure is the highest in Europe

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## Юрка

> The Global Divide on Homosexuality | Pew Global Attitudes Project

 А нет ли исследований, в каких странах терпимо (или не очень) относятся к коммунистам? Если такого исследования нет, то это несправедливо, так как они тоже люди и нуждаются в нашей с вами защите.  :: 
Я слышал, что в США "комми" - это обзывалка?.. А какие крупные соревнования скоро будут проводить в США, которые мы могли бы использовать для борьбы с данным отношением к коммунистам?..

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## alexsms

> Ух ты, нас в Европу определили! А Нигерия всех сделала.

 В 1960 г. вышла книга Political Man (Lipset, Seymour Martin. Garden City, New York: Anchor Books, 1960.)
В ней при сравнении стран СССР отнесен к Европе. 
Очевидно, с точки зрения геополитики (а не с географической точки зрения) Россию относят к Европе (и сама она больше тяготеет к Европе; Россия не принимает участие в чемпионате Азии по футболу, например).

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## alexsms

> And I would expect that when some Russians HEAR the term "гомосексуализм", they might THINK "мужеложество", for example.

 It's a valid observation. But to be exact, they might think 'MALE homosexual relations of any kind', while мужеложество implies 'intercourse' (let us say it's a narrower term,  :: ). 
People tend not to think about the technical accuracy (or scientific) of the term; besides, any borrowed word or scientific term may evolve in its own way in a given language. In Russian 'homosexuality' in everyday language almost always implies male homosexuality. One shouldn't forget also that lesbian relations are often not treated as something negative, even acceptable (at least it seems to me in Russia that is the case). 
The pollsters (researchers) probably (hopefully) clarified what they meant by the term 'homosexuality', but of course it's not always clear whether the interviewed understand the question 100%. Probably they had to use a broader term for the purpose of the survey (it is implied that the idea of the survey was to ask specifically about 'homosexuality', and not to make it gender-specific).

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## Eric C.

> А нет ли исследований, в каких странах терпимо (или не очень) относятся к коммунистам? Если такого исследования нет, то это несправедливо, так как они тоже люди и нуждаются в нашей с вами защите. 
> Я слышал, что в США "комми" - это обзывалка?.. А какие крупные соревнования скоро будут проводить в США, которые мы могли бы использовать для борьбы с данным отношением к коммунистам?..

 It doesn't work with commies/nazis/etc. , that is followers of any radical political beliefs, because: 
1. They CAN stop being ones by their own will.
2. They pose a threat to everyone else until they do.

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## Юрка

> 1. They CAN stop being ones by their own will.

 Вы хотите сказать, что можно перестать интересоваться справедливостью распределения материальных благ, но нельзя перестать интересоваться анальным сексом?  :: 
Даже не знаю, как прокомментировать... Получается, что у животных страстей есть привилегии над убеждениями совести?  

> 2. They pose a threat to everyone else until they do.

 Бывают ли случаи, когда геи насилуют гетеросексуальных и гомосексуальных мужчин или женщин? Если да, то они представляют угрозу.

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## Lampada

> Вы хотите сказать, что перестать интересоваться справедливостью распределения материальных благ - это возможно, а перестать интересоваться анальным сексом - это невозможно? 
> Даже не знаю, как прокомментировать...
> Бывают ли случаи, когда геи насилуют гетеросексуальных и гомосексуальных мужчин или женщин? Если да, то они представляют угрозу.

 You have to stop trolling.  This is a warning.

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## Eric C.

> Вы хотите сказать, что можно перестать интересоваться справедливостью распределения материальных благ, но нельзя перестать интересоваться анальным сексом? 
> Даже не знаю, как прокомментировать... Получается, что у животных страстей есть привилегии над убеждениями совести?

 _Спасибо, кэп_ (c)  ::  
1. На данный момент у человека данные категории распределяются следующим образом: животные инстинкты --> затем категории разума --> ЗАТЕМ категории совести (или чего там у вас); если бы было по-другому, человек был бы другим видом, и его активность на данной планете имела бы совершенно другую природу.
2. А что собственно делает человека гетеросексуалом или не- гетеросексуалом? Искренне хотелось бы полагать что не частота сексуальных контактов, ибо вряд ли можно найти человека у которого практика постоянно совпадает с теорией идеальных 2-3 раз в день; однако, это не меняет их ориентацию, ведь так? =) (если не понятно, ваша аналогия со специфическим видом секса неуместна)

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## Юрка

Deleted. L.

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## Lampada

> Deleted. L.

 Юрка is banned for 7 days for trolling.

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## Eric C.

> Юрка is banned for 7 days for trolling.

 Unfortunately, I never saw that particular response of his, which I'm actually curious about. If its presence on this thread violates the forum rules, is there a way I could receive it via PM? Thanks!

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## Lampada

> Unfortunately, I never saw that particular response of his, which I'm actually curious about. If its presence on this thread violates the forum rules, is there a way I could receive it via PM? Thanks!

 Отправила

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## Юрка

> Вспомним Раневскую:  _"Боже мой, несчастная страна, где человек не может распорядиться своей ж....,"- вздохнула Раневская._

 Запрет пропаганды гомосексуализма - это гарантия того, что каждый будет распоряжаться своей ж.... самостоятельно, а не под влиянием.

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## Throbert McGee

> Запрет пропаганды гомосексуализма - это гарантия того, что каждый будет распоряжаться своей ж.... самостоятельно, а не под влиянием.

 I hit "Like" after reading the Википедия link in Юрка's .sig -- I'd never heard of the "Эффект Даннинга -- Крюгера" in either Russian or English. Clearly, Юрка has a healthy sense of self-deprecating humor, and is able to cheerfully acknowledge the bathyscaphic depths of his own ignorance about homosexuality! 
And I'm not offended by the жопа comments as long as Юрка *actually understands* that anal sex is a learned/taught practice that is propagated in the modern gay subculture, and is not some kind of "homosexual instinct"; and furthermore that homosexuality might be described on some level as *"a desire to share orgasmic pleasure with a person of the same sex"* but beyond that it's not a desire for any specific sexual practice such as anal intercourse or oral-genital contact or "fisting" or whatever.

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## Lampada

> ...And I'm not offended by the жопа comments as long as Юрка *actually understands* that...

 Сильно на это не надейся. 
 И если Фаине Георгиевне Раневской позволяется любой по её желанию выбор слов, то это не значит, что нужно было как попугай повторять за ней.

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## Юрка

> И если Фаине Георгиевне Раневской позволяется любой по её желанию выбор слов, то это не значит, что нужно было как попугай повторять за ней.

 Конституция Российской Федерации.
Глава 2. Права и свободы человека и гражданина
Статья 19   

> 1. Все равны перед законом и судом. 
> 2. Государство гарантирует равенство прав и свобод человека и гражданина независимо от пола, расы, национальности, языка, происхождения, имущественного и должностного положения, места жительства, отношения к религии, убеждений, принадлежности к общественным объединениям, а также других обстоятельств. Запрещаются любые формы ограничения прав граждан по признакам социальной, расовой, национальной, языковой или религиозной принадлежности. 
> 3. Мужчина и женщина имеют равные права и свободы и равные возможности для их реализации.

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## RedFox

It seems Юрка treats Lampada as "law and justice". Maybe that was a masked compliment, though.

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## Throbert McGee

Hmmm, according to Викицитатник, Faina Ranevskaya was also the originator of the quip: "Гомосексуализм — это не извращение. Извращение — это хоккей на траве и балет на льду!" 
Which reminds me a little bit of an old _Simpsons_ quote -- after gay director John Waters rescues Homer from a herd of angry reindeer at the very last minute, Homer says: 
"It's a miracle!" 
And John Waters replies: 
"*No, Ultrasuede™ is a miracle* -- this was just good timing." 
P.S. Don't ask me to explain why the phrase "Ultrasuede is a miracle!" is so totally hilarious... it just is. (But it helps if you grew up in an English-speaking country sometime between the 1950s and 1980s.)

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## Lampada

> Hmmm, according to Викицитатник, Faina Ranevskaya was also the originator of the quip: "Гомосексуализм — это не извращение. Извращение — это хоккей на траве и балет на льду!" ...

 Вроде в интернете эта цитата чаще приводится в таком виде:  "_Лесбиянство, гомосексуализм, мазохизм, садизм – это не извращения" строго объясняет Раневская.: "Извращений, собственно, только два: хоккей на траве и балет на льду"._

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## xdns

I stumbled across this video:    
The performance is moving. But why no flags of Russia? Isn't it offensive to sing the anthem of the country and intentionally wave unrelated flags? And they are implying that Russia is "grey and barren without the colours of the rainbow". It sounds pretentious! 
Update: Oh, I've just spotted one flag of Russia on my second viewing. But it was hard with so many LGBT flags around!

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## Throbert McGee

> The performance is moving.* But why no flags of Russia?* Isn't it offensive to sing the anthem of the country and intentionally wave unrelated flags?

 Well, since most of the singers are presumably Swedes and only lip-synching to the Russian lyrics, it might've been more offensive if they waved the Russian flag in order to выдавать себя за русскими. By waving the rainbow flag, there was no appearance of "fakery".   

> And they are implying that Russia is "grey and barren without the colours of the rainbow". It sounds pretentious!

 [shrugging] I don't know -- I remember that when I was a kid, there was an anti-racism spot that used to run on television. It started with a close-up of the American flag; then the   red   stripes begin to disappear, and the   blue   field begins to fade. The narrator says in deep, mournful voice: "This is what our flag would look like if you took all the colors away" -- referring to the traditional all-white flag of surrender.  
I just mean that the color-symbolism of ANY flag has some "pretentiousness" in it. That's the point of flags.

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## edvalais

> bathyscaphic depths

 I wonder what "bathyscaphic" means? Perhaps it has something to do with loofahs and bath salts. 
When exiled to Kishinev, Pushkin sent this letter to his friend Vigel', a well-known homosexual: 
Но в Кишинёве, знаешь сам,
Нельзя найти ни милых дам,
Ни сводни, ни книгопродавца, –
Жалею о твоей судьбе!
Не знаю, придут ли к тебе
Под вечер милых три красавца:
Однако ж кое-как, мой друг,
Лишь только будет мне досуг,
Явлюся я перед тобою,
Тебе служить я буду рад –
Стихами, прозой, всей душою,
Но, Вигель, – пощади мой зад!  
For me, this is typical Pushkin: effortlessly balanced - affectionate, but taking the piss at the same time. 
By contrast, this Russian law is mean-spirited and not worthy of that wonderful nation. People who think that homosexual relationships are just about sex are as misguided as those who think heterosexual relationships are just about hiding the sosiska. такие несчастные люди - с шорами на глазах...

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