# Forum About Russia Politics  Sanctions on Russia: Facts and end-resultsd

## Hanna

Just a thread to discuss the sanctions on Russia following the Crimea/Ukraine events.   Will this affect regular people at all?Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)What long term effects will the sanctions have...Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?  
My prediction is that the US and/or EU will also try to get RT off the air. It's getting more popular all the time, and it's driving Washington crazy.  
I think there is a good chance that they will "discover" some form of bureacratic issue to get RT off the air, in the same way as happened with PressTV in the EU and Russian speaking channels in the Baltics and Ukraine. Or all the reporters will find that they are denied visas etc.

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## DrBaldhead

It all depends on what sanctions are actually going to be invoked.  

> Will this affect regular people at all?

 Yes, it will. Yet, not everyone. 
IMHO the heaviest effect would come if VISA (or MasterCard) would actually stop operating in Russia. It won't make people lose their money, but it might be a drag to retrieve it for a while. The decision to create our own payment system (and this idea is far from new) is already made, so the harder Obama tries, the closer we are to taking measures on reclaiming Russian plastic card market.
Most trade sanctions would not actually harm regular people - we're not so dependent on the western markets when it comes to everyday goods as we were 20 years ago. Moreover, Russian manufacturers will not have to compete with foreign companies. It will take much effort and much losses to cancel enough supplies to actually cause major changes. Most of the money lost by the western companies shall go to Asia and China might get even stronger.  

> Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)

 It's kinda funny that those "sanctions" are declared not against Russia, but against Putin personally and his closest henchmen. And right now his "right hand men" are kinda proud that their efforts are recognized on such a level and ask for more.
Actually such sanctions could have a good effect earlier, but since when the Magnitskiy law (which manifests exactly the same sanctions for more than a year already) was enacted, we regularly witnessed runaways of various officials/politicians (with big bags of money). To be short, those who could suffer from it are either already left and have no influence or not intended to be the actual target.  

> What long term effects will the sanctions have...

 The markets shall suffer losses because it's not easy to isolate the 5th largest world economy. Even VISA has 100 millions customers here. Refusing to have all this money just because Obama says so is a tough decision.
Russia will meet new problems but also get new options, especially for mobilizing the domestic markets. 
In the end we will witness the dawn of the real New World Order, finally shattering the Old World we had inherited since the WW II.  

> Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?

 The political and economical chaos in Ukraine is much more dangerous problem for Russia than any sanctions. Actually the main success of the recent events is that Ukraine was stopped (surgically) from entering the Customs Union. If we manage to stop the ongoing civil conflicts and bring peace (taking at least part of Ukraine to our Customs Union would be the biggest luck) those sanctions shall mostly backfire rather than work.

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## UhOhXplode

Cool thread since it's something I've read a lot about.  *Will this affect regular people at all?* 
I don't know but since a lot of Russian people want Putin to invade Ukraine then it must not be having a huge effect.  *Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)* 
If it does then they don't seem to care. The Russian parliament wanted the West to sanction all of them and there's a popular saying in Russia right now: "Добавь себя в «чёрный список» США.". (Add yourself to the blacklist of the United States."
They have an online petition for that and it's viral.  *What long term effects will the sanctions have...* 
Imo, the long term effects will strengthen Russia and the eastern Trade Union. But it will also be devastating to the US and EU economies since the 5th largest economy will exist almost entirely in the east. And I don't see the TPP competing with that.
President Putin has already signed an agreement with Belarus and Kazakhstan, signed an agreement with China to double Russia's gas and oil trade with them, and signed an agreement in North Korea to construct new pipelines. Russia probably has enough options to make the Western sanctions irrelevant to Russian prosperity.  *Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?* 
Русские не сдаются. President Putin said at the meeting in Germany that the sanctions will have no effect on Russian policy. Russia's stands on the issues will never be changed by sanctions. 
Sanctions are like NGO's. They are used like weapons to attack other countries and force them to change to Western standards. Only weak nations cave in but Russia is not weak.
Btw, I think it's illegal to interfere with satellite signals. So even if the West attacks RT, people will still be able to receive the signal with satellite dishes. We have 2 dishes and we get RT on TV, on our PC's, and on the radio.

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## UhOhXplode

Cool thread since it's something I've read a lot about.  *Will this affect regular people at all?* 
I don't know but since a lot of Russian people want Putin to invade Ukraine then it must not be having a huge effect.  *Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)* 
If it does then they don't seem to care. The Russian parliament wanted the West to sanction all of them and there's a popular saying in Russia right now: "Добавь себя в «чёрный список» США.". (Add yourself to the blacklist of the United States."
They have an online petition for that and it's viral.  *What long term effects will the sanctions have...* 
Imo, the long term effects will strengthen Russia and the eastern Trade Union. But it will also be devastating to the US and EU economies since the 5th largest economy will exist almost entirely in the east. And I don't see the TPP competing with that.
President Putin has already signed an agreement with Belarus and Kazakhstan, signed an agreement with China to double Russia's gas and oil trade with them, and signed an agreement in North Korea to construct new pipelines. Russia probably has enough options to make the Western sanctions irrelevant to Russian prosperity.  *Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?* 
Русские не сдаются. President Putin said at the meeting in Germany that the sanctions will have no effect on Russian policy. Russia's stands on the issues will never be changed by sanctions. 
Sanctions are like NGO's. They are used like weapons to attack other countries and force them to change to Western standards. Only weak nations cave in but Russia is not weak.
Btw, I think it's illegal to interfere with satellite signals. So even if the West attacks RT, people will still be able to receive the signal with satellite dishes. We have 2 dishes and we get RT on TV, on our PC's, and on the radio. The radio signal is channeled through a separate transmitter.

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## Hanna

Should be interesting the day China imposes sanctions on the USA.
For war crimes in the Middle East, or whatever.  
Or Russia on the EU (although that could be rather cold in the winter... so only after I am in a house with solar panels... ) 
The same EU countries that are bashing Russia right now, import most of their gas and oil from Russia.  
Personally I think sanctions are ridiculous, but could be interesting to see it applied to the USA and after the US has destroyed economies around the world it seems that nothing apart from a taste of its own medicine would make the US change its ways. The US manufactures hardly no major industrial products, apart from weapons. 5 years without any computer parts from China, lol....

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## eisenherz

> The US manufactures hardly no major industrial products, apart from weapons.....

 that is factually wrong; a few products that come to mind
aircraft (eg Boeing)
tractors and agricultural machinery (eg John Deere)
gas turbines
automotive and automotive suppliers (gm, ford, chrysler - even the europeans and japanese manufacture in the US (bmw, merc, vw, bosch, zf, siemens, toyota)
medical equipment
pharmaceuticals
etc 
while manufacturing did in certain sectors decline over time, i do think the USA is still the single biggest manufacturer

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## eisenherz

in my opinion China is very unlikely to ever impose sanctions on any big trading partner as China's economy is particularly geared around exports (hence the artificially pegged weak Yuan / Renminbi) - plus they are a huge importer of natural resources (eg iron ore, coal) - they would hurt themselves the most. 
I believe that serious US/Euro sanctions on Russia actually have a more severe and longer term impact on Russia's economy than Russia would admit to. Please note that I am not commenting on the fairness of sanctions or lack thereof, merely on their effect. And I am not talking about restricting travel to Putin's inner circle, but level 3 or higher level of genuine economic sanctions. I believe this genuinely worries Russia's leaders, particlar with regards to longer term economic growth and development. If implemented, such sanctions would eventually affect ordinary people, though emotions of patriotism would for some time cloud the consequences. Such sanctions would hurt some European countries too; especially those that would have high level export opportunities with a growing Russian economy. In particular this is the case with Germany, whose export of high value and high tech machinery has been flourishing with Russian companies over the last years (automotive is one example). The issue of gas reliance from Russia gives Russia currently an advantangeous lever (the dependence on russian gas ranging from 30% in some countries to 100% in others within the EU). If Russia were to withhold supply, it would hurt Europe in the short term; but I am convinced that Europe as a unit would find alternate solutions to the energy supply and thus in the longer terrm Russia would be without one very valuable customer for their abundance of gas. As for the US, they have the least to lose with sanctions as their manufacturing industry is to a lesser degree reliant on exports (and in particular exports to Russia). 
In my mind Russia and some European countries would be the real loosers if severe sanctions were implemented.

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## Hanna

Yes, I agree with your main points. As for the "US produces only weapons" statement, that's been flying around for years now and there is some truth to it but obviously as you pointed out there is some level of local production. For a country that size and economy, the scale of the production deficit is really shocking though. And the American working class are the ones losing out.  But that's a different discussion.  
I think perhaps your fears about long term serious sanctions being perceived as a genuine threat, are warranted.  
It would explain Putin's unexpected change of position this week, on Eastern Ukraine.   He essentially tells rebels to calm down and try to negotiate internally.He tells them to postpone the referendum.He made a clear comment that an intact Ukraine with federalism is the way to go. Earlier it was more open-ended what objectives Russia might have.  
All good stuff that he communicates at last, but if that was the view all along, why not say so a month earlier, before over 100 people were killed on both sides! 
It gave the impression that he changed his mind. Why would that be? Well, *sanctions come to mind as a possible explanation*. Or possibly genuine concern that too many people had died, but frankly the sanctions seem more likely.  
If it's not that, then he's playing a very shrewd game indeed. 
Or he was genuinely indecisive, or communicated poorly.  
The thing about the sanctions is that it's ludicrous and rude of Washington to sit and talk about sanctions when they have practically  no trade with Russia anyway. China obviously would probably only laugh at it, or pay lip service in respect to "American" products that are made in China.   *The real victim of the sanctions would be European energy consumers, i.e most people in Europe, particularly North and East, and European companies that do business in Russia, i.e. almost all major companies.* 
Do we need this, in the middle of the financial crisis, Euro crisis, Greece and everything else that's going on. And frankly, to whom in the EU does it even matter on a practical level, which country Crimea belongs to? As usual, the USA looks only to its own interests and Europe is supposed to dance to its tune for no good reason. Some politicians are so keen to score points with Washington that they'd go with anything, but others are realising that these sanctions would hurt EU just as much as they would hurt Russia.  
Ever since the end of the Cold War, "trade with Russia" and "expand into Russia" has been the capitalist motto of Europe. But now we are adding the clause "but only if they behave as Washington wants".  
 I for one found Putin's turnaround very odd and am thinking, that either he genuinely fears sanctions, or he is playing a very elaborate game of poker with Russia's real intentions. If Russia isn't going to support separatists, the decent thing to do would have been to make that completely clear to them a long time ago, rather than let things drag on and even allow people to do. They obviously hang on every words Putin says, as was clear from their response to the request to postpone the referendum. Seems to me, something changed Putin's mind!

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## UhOhXplode

President Putin is trying to protect the Russian compatriots in Ukraine but don't forget, he also has to protect the Russians in Russia too. He had a 3 hour talk with the Swiss president of the OSCE and they were very agreeable towards Russia's position. I found that article in Komsomolskaya Pravda "Putin asked the southeast of Ukraine referendum move". Also there's a petition with 60,000 signatures in the European Parliament to classify the Right Sector as a terrorist organization. If it's approved by the EC then some of the Ukrainian parliament will be arrested and have their assets frozen. And that includes all the Right Sector activists in Ukraine. And Merkel wants to set up a "round table" conference with leaders from both West and East Ukraine to help resolve their differences. 
The EU is obviously concerned about how much serious sanctions would damage Europe. If President Putin can resolve the issues with diplomacy it will save a lot of lives. 
Btw, Donetsk and Luhansk voted to not postpone the referendum. That was also in Komsomolskaya Pravda "In Lugansk and Donetsk decided not to postpone a referendum on the status of the region".

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## Hanna

> President Putin is trying to protect the Russian compatriots in Ukraine but don't forget, he also has to protect the Russians in Russia too. He had a 3 hour talk with the Swiss president of the OSCE and they were very agreeable towards Russia's position. I found that article in Komsomolskaya Pravda "Putin asked the southeast of Ukraine referendum move". Also there's a petition with 60,000 signatures in the European Parliament to classify the Right Sector as a terrorist organization. If it's approved by the EC then some of the Ukrainian parliament will be arrested and have their assets frozen. And that includes all the Right Sector activists in Ukraine. And Merkel wants to set up a "round table" conference with leaders from both West and East Ukraine to help resolve their differences. 
> The EU is obviously concerned about how much serious sanctions would damage Europe. If President Putin can resolve the issues with diplomacy it will save a lot of lives. 
> Btw, Donetsk and Luhansk voted to not postpone the referendum. That was also in Komsomolskaya Pravda "In Lugansk and Donetsk decided not to postpone a referendum on the status of the region".

 
You are really well informed on this! Hats off! 
You're at uni, right? What's your major? I reckon you'd be perfect for Political Science.  
I didn't even know about the 60,000 signatures list in the EU. 
That's nothing though. The EU has, gosh can't remember, but something like 500,000,000 inhabitants. Should be no problem at all getting 1 mil signatures, just by showing people the pics of the Right Sector guys. (of course, they are not shown in mainstream EU media, but a lot of people are on to the fact that the covering is biaised.  
Good to hear that Switzerland took a more pragmatic view. Switzerland is the most democratic country in Europe actually, but that's a different story. And its pragmatic.  
Also interesting that some of the "pro-Russians" chose to ignore Putin's advice. 
I'm not quite so much dyed-in-the-wool pro-Russia/Putin as you are but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate your posts, and the same goes for people like Basil77 and others. Everything that it-Ogo said made me think.  
I just get an impression that the whole Donbass area simply doesn't HAVE a very clear national identity at all - it was "soviet" and now in the absence of that, it's both Russian and Ukrainian, or perhaps neither! Also,  there is a class and age related divide with as to who identifies more with Russia vs Ukraine. So an older working class woman might feel quite different than a younger well educated male living next door to her. 
From a Political Science perspective (I actually have a degree in that) it's wildly fascinating, but it's also incredibly upsetting. 
My view is whatever will make the area more prosperous and allow the people there freedom and stability will be the best bet. I don't think that as an outsider I really should offer a strong view. But if I was to take a view I'd say that federalism ought to be win-win for all sides. I don't particularly condemn Russia though - Russia is just reacting to the coup d'etat and trying to look out for its interests on its borders, and for Russian speakers which I think is completely reasonable. 
edit;  
I read the Beeb's story on this and they seem as surprised as I was, about Putin's comments. They said it's either 
1) RU genuinely fears sanctions
2) Putin is shocked at how events are developing and tries to prevent further escalation
3) It's a ploy with some ulterior motive

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## UhOhXplode

> You are really well informed on this! Hats off! 
> You're at uni, right? What's your major? I reckon you'd be perfect for Political Science.  
> I didn't even know about the 60,000 signatures list in the EU. 
> That's nothing though. The EU has, gosh can't remember, but something like 500,000 inhabitants. Should be no problem at all getting 1 mil signatures, just by showing people the pics of the Right Sector guys. (of course, they are not shown in mainstream EU media, but a lot of people are on to the fact that the covering is biaised.  
> Good to hear that Switzerland took a more pragmatic view. Switzerland is the most democratic country in Europe actually, but that's a different story. And its pragmatic.  
> Also interesting that some of the "pro-Russians" chose to ignore Putin's advice. 
> I'm not quite so much dyed-in-the-wool pro-Russia/Putin as you are but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate your posts, and the same goes for people like Basil77 and others. Everything that it-Ogo said made me think.  
> I just get an impression that the whole Donbass area simply doesn't HAVE a very clear national identity at all - it was "soviet" and now in the absence of that, it's both Russian and Ukrainian, or perhaps neither! And its obvious that there is a class and age related divide with as to who identifies more with Russia vs Ukraine.  
> From a Political Science perspective (I actually have a degree in that) it's wildly fascinating, but it's also incredibly upsetting. 
> My view is whatever will make the area more prosperous and allow the people there freedom and stability will be the best bet. I don't think that as an outsider I really should offer a strong view. But if I was to take a view I'd say that federalism ought to be win-win for all sides. I don't particularly condemn Russia though - Russia is just reacting to the coup d'etat and trying to look out for its interests on its borders, and for Russian speakers which I think is completely reasonable.

 Thanks!  ::  I just knew there had to be a reason for Putin to wanna postpone the referendum so I looked for any recent articles. But no, I won't be ready for uni for 2 more years and then I may wanna major in Physics. Haven't really decided yet.
Btw, I know members here have very different views but I respect that and I always learn something from everything I read. And I totally do agree that federalism is the best solution. Anyway, at least the "round table" discussions can give Ukraine a chance to have a government that's fair to all the Ukrainian people. I really hope that works.

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## diogen_

Obama has a  "cumulative" grudge on Putin for not only Ukraine but  also for Snowden, Syria, Iran, and other issuers, and he actually coverts to impose even those sanctions that can backfire and harm not only Russia but his big corporations. On the other hand, EU states are too effete and hedonistic to be ready to sacrifice their comfort and profits for the sake of Ukraine, but they still need to react somehow on "border shifts" to save their faces in order to finally found themselves on the right side of history. Hence, Putin has to meander to reach the dream of his life, and his moves are  very, very cautious and full of disguise. It's A Long Way to Tipperary Novorussia but slow and steady he wins the race...))

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## Hanna

Now, Russia is hitting back. I have no idea whether this is something that will hurt the USA or not. 
But it looks like Russia is planning the following:   "The 11 American GPS stations in Russia will _initially be turned off on 1 June, then_ “be permanently   terminated” from September 1, if the US continues with its aggression. ""Moscow is banning Washington from   using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to   deliver its military satellites into orbit."Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the   US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space   Station (ISS). 
Surprised that they don't also throw out any US astronauts currently in Russia, no doubt there must be some there training or something. I know none of this is their fault, but it would certainly get the message across.    

> Rogozin stressed that Russia will apply restrictive   measures of its own only as a response to sanctions imposed by   the West.

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## Eric C.

> Now, Russia is hitting back. I have no idea whether this is something that will hurt the USA or not. 
> But it looks like Russia is planning the following:   "The 11 American GPS stations in Russia will _initially be turned off on 1 June, then_ “be permanently   terminated” from September 1, if the US continues with its aggression. ""Moscow is banning Washington from   using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to   deliver its military satellites into orbit."Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the   US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space   Station (ISS). 
> Surprised that they don't also throw out any US astronauts currently in Russia, no doubt there must be some there training or something. I know none of this is their fault, but it would certainly get the message across.

 Such steps take very little dignity, and if the Russian authorities are serious about that, it will only make everyone treat the country even worse than it is treated now. As for the GPS thing, it's as insane as their political games resulted in the U.S. adoption ban. "If you continue to piss us off, we'll mistreat even more our fellow citizens" (c)

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## bytemare

> Such steps take very little dignity, and if the Russian authorities are serious about that, it will only make everyone treat the country even worse than it is treated now. As for the GPS thing, it's as insane as their political games resulted in the U.S. adoption ban. "If you continue to piss us off, we'll mistreat even more our fellow citizens" (c)

 And they will be happy to be mistreated  ::   It will be the west's  fault.  for some people, the idealogy is more important that how they  live or how much stuff they have or can buy, so they will deal with the sanctions.  Sanctions are hurting.   The value of the ruble has fallen, and sanctioning a bank causes panic.   Sure, for many people, it's just an invonvienence that it just got a  little harder to buy an app from the app store, but the sanctions are  bad for business and investment.   
By the way, the economic  situation in Ukraine was crap even before this all happened.  About two  years ago, their credit rating was reduced due to risk, heck even their  national airline went out of business due to debts (prinicple debtor was  SVO airport of course).  A shame, I actually enjoyed flying them.

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## Eric C.

> And they will be happy to be mistreated   It will be the west's  fault.  for some people, the idealogy is more important that how they  live or how much stuff they have or can buy, so they will deal with the sanctions.  Sanctions are hurting.   The value of the ruble has fallen, and sanctioning a bank causes panic.   Sure, for many people, it's just an invonvienence that it just got a  little harder to buy an app from the app store, but the sanctions are  bad for business and investment.   
> By the way, the economic  situation in Ukraine was crap even before this all happened.  About two  years ago, their credit rating was reduced due to risk, heck even their  national airline went out of business due to debts (prinicple debtor was  SVO airport of course).  A shame, I actually enjoyed flying them.

 One would argue if such an economic situation in Ukraine had arisen out of nothing, or it had resulted from the incompetent rule of the "regional party", the leader of which was kicked out of the office not long ago. Anyway, the most important thing for them now is to deal with all the "country traders" and to keep integrity, as THAT is the biggest threat now. After they're done with that, and after they have a legally formed government after the election, they can start solving the economic issues.

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## UhOhXplode

> Now, Russia is hitting back. I have no idea whether this is something that will hurt the USA or not. 
> But it looks like Russia is planning the following:  "The 11 American GPS stations in Russia will _initially be turned off on 1 June, then_ “be permanently   terminated” from September 1, if the US continues with its aggression. ""Moscow is banning Washington from   using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to   deliver its military satellites into orbit."Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the   US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space   Station (ISS). 
> Surprised that they don't also throw out any US astronauts currently in Russia, no doubt there must be some there training or something. I know none of this is their fault, but it would certainly get the message across.

 Those sanctions are a brilliant move. With NASA falling apart, it will give Russia an impressive edge on the space industry.  
In other news, is everyone aware that the US Vice President's son has been appointed to the board of directors of one of Ukraine's largest gas conglomerates, Burisma Holdings. While Ukrainians are dying, Hunter Biden has a huge smile on his face ($$$$$$$). Hunter Biden, Joe's Son, Joins Ukraine Gas Company - Business Insider 
Washington DC is busy right now trying to explain how this has nothing to do with the Ukrainian Crisis or the US government... yeah right...
*Waiting to read about the next US political $$$$ success story in Ukraine...

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## bytemare

Certainly not much evidence that NASA is "falling apart."  They've done quite a job with the Mars Curiosity thing (unless of course, you don't believe that has taken place)  ::  
Ukraine could have no gas as their main supply is about to be cut off.  Gas is what most of the population uses for heating, cooking, and hot water.  So I don't know why it would be such a huge surprise to hire a Yale trained lawyer who is an expert on international law.  Heck the CEO of one of the largest banks in Russia is an American.

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## UhOhXplode

> Certainly not much evidence that NASA is "falling apart."  They've done quite a job with the Mars Curiosity thing (unless of course, you don't believe that has taken place)

 I've been all over the Curiosity rover since the launch and I'm always watching for new discoveries. I was also watching the Messenger mission when it discovered ice under organic compounds in craters on Mercury.
I'm also waiting for the New Horizons mission to do the Pluto flyby and I've been all over the Cassini-Solstice, Kepler Space Telescope, and International Space Station discoveries too. Btw, Kepler 186f is Earth-sized and in the habitable zone.  :: 
This summer the new Angara heavy-lift rocket will be test launched at the Plesetsk Cosmodrome and Voyager 1 has reached the Depletion zone of the Heliosphere. It's 127.8 AU from the sun right now. 
Back to NASA. They're still using Atlas V rockets since the space shuttle program failed. Next they wanted to build the Ares 1 and Ares V rockets, under the Constellation Program, for near-earth and deep space missions. That got dropped so now they wanna build a new SLS heavy lift vehicle to support the Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle (rewind to Ares 1). 
But mostly they just wanna let commercial companies build the rockets now and they totally did change up their format. 
That's what I call falling apart. NASA - NASA Plays Key Exploration Role In New Administration Space Policy    

> Ukraine could have no gas as their main supply is about to be cut off.  Gas is what most of the population uses for heating, cooking, and hot water.  So I don't know why it would be such a huge surprise to hire a Yale trained lawyer who is an expert on international law.  Heck the CEO of one of the largest banks in Russia is an American.

 When somebody has to publish a whole article to try and prove they didn't do anything wrong... something did something wrong.

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## Hanna

> Ukraine could have no gas as their main supply is about to be cut off.  Gas is what most of the population uses for heating, cooking, and hot water.

 The expression *"Don't bite the hand that feeds you"* comes to mind.  
Take one guess why the the USA is so cosy with Saudi Arabia, a country that stands for everything the US normally can't tolerate;  i.e. dictatorship, oppression of women, lack of "freedom", homophobia, non-Christian values --- just as a starting point. They need the oil imports, at prices they can afford. So in light of that they brush their normal reservations under the carpet. And Russia is considerably less unpleasant than Saudi from pretty much any objective Western observer's perspective. They even share common culture and language with Ukraine. It really should not be very hard for Ukraine to ensure that it doesn't majorly upset Russia. But instead, Ukraine's done just about everything it can, to annoy Russia, going completely against their own best interests. Who are they going to buy cheap gas from then. Brussels, lol?  
For the exact same reason that the USA cozies up with Saudi, the Ukraine would be wise to make sure it has a working relationship with Ukraine. Through the foreign backed coup d'etat and subsequent events, they have jeopordized this, and now it looks like they'll be paying the price.  
Plus - it's not like Russia is refusing to provide gas. 
Unless I am mistaken, Russia asks nothing else than that Ukraine pays the same price for gas as the rest of the EU, and that (due to not having paid discounted fees on time) now pays for usage in advance. Completely acceptable practice within business. It's anyone's prerogative to decide who they want to give discounts to, or ask payment in advance from untrusted partners.  Basically in this respect *"they made their bed and now they have to lay in it"* to use another common expression.  
The US is seriously talking about building an underwater gas pipeline to Europe. 
I personally wish the natural gas sources in Europe were a bit more evenly distributed, but at the end of the day, that's where it's at. Russia may have gas, but it has some other challenges and problems that the rest of Europe doesn't have. 
By the way, does anyone know why gas is so expensive nowadays? 
I don't know where my gas comes from, but I pay a small fortune for it. It's totally ridiculous. When I was at university the gas bill was nothing. It might as well have been free. Literally, a month's supply cost about the same as a dinner out. Why is it so expensive now? What's changed?   

> Those sanctions are a brilliant move. With NASA  falling apart, it will give Russia an impressive edge on the space  industry.  
> In other news, is everyone aware that the US Vice President's son has  been appointed to the board of directors of one of Ukraine's largest gas  conglomerates, Burisma Holdings. While Ukrainians are dying, Hunter  Biden has a huge smile on his face ($$$$$$$). Hunter Biden, Joe's Son, Joins Ukraine Gas Company - Business Insider

 What irony. And how ridiculous. What on earth qualifies some American punk who doesn't even speak the local language, be on the board of this company? 
What's it going to take for Ukrainians to see that the US is no better than Russia, probably worse?   

> As a new member of the Board, I  believe that my assistance in consulting the Company on matters of  transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international  expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and  benefit the people of Ukraine," Hunter Biden said in the statement.

 Translation: _I have no relevant skills whatsoever, but I am good at bullshïtting. You should be honoured to pay me 1mil USD per year for my services._

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## eisenherz

> Kepler 186f is Earth-sized and in the habitable zone.

 reminds me of Kepler 62f; pity 62f and 186f are somewhat heavier then our beloved earth and hence likely to have an unihabitable dense He athmosphere...
pity the 500 lightyears distance - not easy to have it checked out in a rush

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## eisenherz

[QUOTE=Hanna;262503]. Why is it so expensive now? 
[QUOTE] 
it is pure greed and capitalist market factors. shell-bp-gazprom etc; all the same = they milk the paying customer as much as they can for as long as they can

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## Hanna

> *Waiting to read about the next US political $$$$ success story in Ukraine...

 Up until recently I was working with this American woman who had spent 6 year with a multinational, well known US firm in Kiev. It was UNBELIEVABLE how arrogant she was in her views of local business practices, local people and geopolitical matters. 
She hadn't bothered to inform herself about anything to do with culture etc.  
I quickly realised I could not mention my personal views to her, as she was a senior person to me. Why that particular company she worked for was even needed in Ukraine, I struggle to understand, it's related to a business practice that all civilised countries can do perfectly well for themselves. By allowing a US company to expand into Ukraine, and sending over Americans to serve in all key roles they sucked money OUT of the country and robbed local people of skills and expertise in a field which I am 100% certain Ukraine has plenty of qualified local staff. 
You see the same thing across Eastern Europe. Western European and American companies move in, make a lot of profit which is then moved out of the country. Local staff paid extremely low salaries and critical management roles filled by non-locals. And their local companies are not as good at PR and can't compete under EU laws. 
Was this why they threw out socialism, so they could be robbed by Western Europe and the USA and be second class EU citizens. It's very tragic and I think most clever people in countries like Romania and Bulgaria are beginning to wonder.    

> Certainly not much evidence that NASA is "falling  apart."  They've done quite a job with the Mars Curiosity thing (unless  of course, you don't believe that has taken place)

 The funding is but a fraction of what it used to be. They just can't  afford it, and there is no profit in it, so NASA's been reduced to  crumbs of what it used to be. That's probably what he meant. The same  thing happened in Russia, a decade earlier, so it's nothing unique. 
One thing that really got me at the time the USSR fell apart, was that they had developed this really AMAZING space launching system called Energia. It had some vessels called "Buran". They were just about finished and had started testing it, if I recall (I was pretty interested in that kind of stuff when I was younger).  
Then they just had to pull the plug. Nothing more was heard, ever about Buran. 
TWENTY years of engineering work at the highest possible level down the drain. 
 Unbelievable. I don't know what happened to this vessel, probably a lump of rust on the steppes of Kazakhstan by now. It was only launched once in a test. It was totally superior to anything the US had, or anything that has been built or even devised since. Both Roscosmos and NASA are but a spec of what they were before. Energia could have been used to launch a manned flight to Mars, if the USSR had continued on. What a tragedy.

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## bytemare

It's common for business to publish bio's about executives in their  company, and in many places it's required by law to publish changes in  the executive organization for a public organization.  A similar search  of Russian banks will produce bio's about their executives, including  the American CEO that I mentioned. 
I don't want to comment on  this thread about the US Saudi relationship since it's not on topic, and  I hadn't even commented on if it's right/wrong for Russia to change its  pricing structure for Ukraine for gas.  The fact is that Ukraine is in  dire straights with respect to gas so it makes sense for their gas  company to seek executives that can help them. 
Obviously many  people there (along with Georgia and Moldova) wanted a closer  relationship with Europe, which didn't happen as was expected.  The  economy, as I mentioned above, was already crap even before this.   People got mad, since they thought this was their last hope of getting  some improvement in their crappy economy, failing banks, and little  possibility for international travel.   So yes, they are dealing with  the consequences, they are trying to figure out how to heat people's  crappy apartments.

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## Hanna

[QUOTE=eisenherz;262506][QUOTE=Hanna;262503]. Why is it so expensive now?   

> it is pure greed and capitalist market factors. shell-bp-gazprom etc; all the same = they milk the paying customer as much as they can for as long as they can

 Yeah I *may* actually have worked for two of these. I think you can guess which ones, in that case. Surprised, huh? Since they are so rich, they are not bad places to be as an employee. But it's borderline whether you can look yourself in the mirror in the morning. 
Don't know exactly what Russia did to XX, but it was certainly *something* which management tried to brush over and whitepaint. Received lots of cryptical emails trying to pretend all was well. In reality I think Russia *took* some of the business and simply gave it go Rosneft, then kicked out all the executives or something like that. And they couldn't hit back or say anything for the risk of jeopardizing their remaining interests in Russia, or negatively affecting the stock price. LOL. Go Putin!
And today, Angola. I think you are in the vicinity, eisenherz, right? and have an idea what they are up to there, while the locals are killing each other. It just makes me want to cry.  
Earlier at YYYYY, lots of cryptical emails from management about "everything we do in Nigeria is PERFECTLY above water, the locals love us, anything else is just lies". Whereupon I looked into it and was totally disgusted, changing jobs at the next opportunity.   *It's creepy how such companies obsessively TALK about community values, ecology, ethics, anti-corruption and then go out and do the exact opposite.*  
Yeah you are probably right. In Scandinavia, at the time it was cheap, I got the gas from the local state owned company. So that would explain the cheapness. Nobody was trying to make a profit. I don't know where they got the gas from. Russia or somewhere else. I think you can actually make household gas from petrol as well, so that might have been what they did. There was something called "the gas factory".  
In the UK, all the gas companies were privatised some years back, not sure when. It was supposed to bring increased efficiency and competition resulting in lower prices. The exact opposite happened, and the whole thing is much debated in media. 
Low income families actually struggle to afford heating their own homes. I've seen stories in the news about single mothers dressing up their kids in coats indoors in the winter.

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## UhOhXplode

> reminds me of Kepler 62f; pity 62f and 186f are somewhat heavier then our beloved earth and hence likely to have an unihabitable dense He athmosphere...
> pity the 500 lightyears distance - not easy to have it checked out in a rush

 Not the same. Kepler 62f is 1 1/2 times larger in diameter than Earth. Kepler 186f is less than 10% larger. Since the STIS (Space Telescope Imaging Spectograph) on Hubble failed in 2004, there aren't many options for determining the composition of exoplanets yet - especially for a planet as small as 186f. They even had to work with the Keck and Gemini North telescopes on Mauna Kea to confirm the existence of 186f. That's always the case for exoplanets that small. But there's still hope because the failing Hubble Space Telescope will be replaced by the JWST (James Web Space Telescope) in 2018.  ::  Then they'll have a chance to learn more about the composition of 186f. 
And yeah, it's 500 light years away but the point is just to learn more about how solar systems evolve.   

> One thing that really got me at the time the USSR fell apart, was that they had developed this really AMAZING space launching system called Energia. It had some vessels called "Buran". They were just about finished and had started testing it, if I recall (I was pretty interested in that kind of stuff when I was younger).  
> Then they just had to pull the plug. Nothing more was heard, ever about Buran. 
> TWENTY years of engineering work at the highest possible level down the drain. 
>  Unbelievable. I don't know what happened to this vessel, probably a lump of rust on the steppes of Kazakhstan by now. It was only launched once in a test. It was totally superior to anything the US had, or anything that has been built or even devised since. Both Roscosmos and NASA are but a spec of what they were before. Energia could have been used to launch a manned flight to Mars, if the USSR had continued on. What a tragedy.

 It was too much like the US Space Shuttle system and that was epic fail. But the Energia system didn't just vanish.  ::  The purpose of the Energia was to engineer a successful heavy-lift vehicle and it started the series of RD-170 rocket engines and the Zenit launcher - the Zenit boosters are still being made and used in the Zenit rockets. And a scaled version of the RD171 rocket (the RD-191) is being used in the new Angara rockets.
So the only part of the project that got shelved was the space shuttle but hey, the US shelved that too. Tbh, it was the Energia design that made the new Angara heavy-lift launch vehicle possible. It's a level up from Energia.
And don't forget, Putin is throwing tons of money at space projects now, including a manned trip to Mars. Also, the new Vostochny Cosmodrome is under construction in the Svobodny and Shimanovsk districts of Amur oblast.
Tbh, it's Russian technology and determination that kept the MIR space station alive and manned beyond it's predicted life expectancy. And it's also what's kept the International Space Station manned since 2002. That's one of the reasons why I say that NASA is falling apart. It has a lot of technology but it has serious issues with dedication and NASA changes it's plans and policies almost as often as I change the sheets on my bed. =/ Russia has a long long history of proving it's dedication to space - including 12 years of sending Expedition Crews to the ISS without fail. And that's too long to wait for the US to even decide on what kind of rocket they wanna build and what they want for a space policy.   

> It's common for business to publish bio's about executives in their  company, and in many places it's required by law to publish changes in  the executive organization for a public organization.  A similar search  of *Russian banks will produce bio's about their executives, including  the American CEO that I mentioned.*

 The American CEO's bank job didn't depend on the results of a bloody conflict with the CIA and US backing the deaths of so-called terrorists (Ukrainian citizens) so that Hunter Biden could safely go to Ukraine and get even more wealthy than he already is.
I can respect the American CEO in Russia but I'll never respect Hunter Biden. Imo, greed is never a good reason to oust a democratically elected President and cause that many deaths.
And don't forget, if this does turn into a civil war, instead of Napolean arriving to find Moscow in ruins, after the Battle of Borodino, it could be Hunter that arrives to find Kiev in ruins.

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## eisenherz

> And don't forget, if this does turn into a civil war, instead of Napolean arriving to find Moscow in ruins, after the Battle of Borodino, it could be Hunter that arrives to find Kiev in ruins.

 that analogy is far-fetched and not at all fitting to the current situation 
1812 Moscow was left largely deserted and partially destroyed by fire (in ruins as you say) on purpose by a strategically retreating imperial russian army.
If Kiev is in ruins, then it is due to civil unrest of a divided country and internal strife fuelled by interfering outside forces on both sides.
There is no Borodino equivalent here at all, no big battle for the final push and open road onto Moscow (Kiev), no final stand. He we rather have a region slowly descending into chaos.
And to elevate the significance and impact of a Mr Biden to that of  Napoleon is beyond me.

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## eisenherz

[QUOTE=Hanna;262509][QUOTE=eisenherz;262506] 

> .  
> And today, Angola. I think you are in the vicinity, eisenherz, right?.

 it is our neighbour to the north - let me not comment on Angola for it is a different topic, save to say that i largely share you views regarding the oil companies (you see, we agree on something)

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## UhOhXplode

> that analogy is far-fetched and not at all fitting to the current situation 
> 1812 Moscow was left largely deserted and partially destroyed by fire (in ruins as you say) on purpose by a strategically retreating imperial russian army.
> If Kiev is in ruins, then it is due to civil unrest of a divided country and internal strife fuelled by interfering outside forces on both sides.
> There is no Borodino equivalent here at all, no big battle for the final push and open road onto Moscow (Kiev), no final stand. He we rather have a region slowly descending into chaos.
> And to elevate the significance and impact of a Mr Biden to that of  Napoleon is beyond me.

 LOL. That analogy was beyond far-fetched. There's no grande armee, Barday, Kutuzov, Cossack light cavalry, or even a Count Rostopchin to order the fires. And comparing Biden to Napolean is like comparing a plastic butter knife to a fine saber. It's also not attrition unless it's attrition for all of Ukraine in a civil war. But if that happens then Biden may not have any prize to collect when he arrives in Kiev. 
I really need to stop watching military re-enactments when I'm posting...

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## bytemare

> LOL. That analogy was beyond far-fetched. There's no grande armee, Barday, Kutuzov, Cossack light cavalry, or even a Count Rostopchin to order the fires. And comparing Biden to Napolean is like comparing a plastic butter knife to a fine saber. It's also not attrition unless it's attrition for all of Ukraine in a civil war. But if that happens then Biden may not have any prize to collect when he arrives in Kiev. 
> I really need to stop watching military re-enactments when I'm posting...

 Это вообще был набор слов.   
Quite amazing that CEO's from large American and west European companies change their positions to work in Russian companies -- this is ok.  But one guy does this for Ukrainian company and he's greedy (although there's no mention of salary anywhere).  Of course, everyone in Ukraine who wants something of a better life for themselves and children has been labelled a terrorist/nazi/killer.  This hatred is completely for new for me.

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## Hanna

[QUOTE=eisenherz;262538][QUOTE=Hanna;262509] 

> it is our neighbour to the north - let me not comment on Angola for it is a different topic, save to say that i largely share you views regarding the oil companies (you see, we agree on something)

 I'd love to hear about Namibia in some other context. Good to know we are on the same page. If those are your horses, I am green of envy....  
And please all, note how uHoHxplode is up to date on the space programmes. This kid is something out of the ordinary for sure. This is not information you just stumble across. Maybe easier today than when I was a teen, but still - I didn't know half of that.  
I am hoping for a manned mission to Mars by 2030 though, and I think most of us would have thought it would have already happened by now 
I bet the Soviets would have loved to conquer the "Red" planet, lol! To bad they never got around to it.

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## Lampada

Что-то вы тут, по-моему, далеко от темы уходите.  Если хотите, я могу отделить космические посты.

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## bytemare

[QUOTE=Hanna;262544][QUOTE=eisenherz;262538] 

> I'd love to hear about Namibia in some other context. Good to know we are on the same page. If those are your horses, I am green of envy....  
> And please all, note how uHoHxplode is up to date on the space programmes. This kid is something out of the ordinary for sure. This is not information you just stumble across. Maybe easier today than when I was a teen, but still - I didn't know half of that.  
> I am hoping for a manned mission to Mars by 2030 though, and I think most of us would have thought it would have already happened by now 
> I bet the Soviets would have loved to conquer the "Red" planet, lol! To bad they never got around to it.

 Maybe they did get around to trying to do it.  We just wouldn't know because they would have only reported it after it were all done and successful, and we wouldn't hear about all of the failed attempts and people who died trying, if history were to repeat itself.

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## UhOhXplode

> Это вообще был набор слов.   
> Quite amazing that CEO's from large American and west European companies change their positions to work in Russian companies -- this is ok.  But one guy does this for Ukrainian company and he's greedy (although there's no mention of salary anywhere).  Of course, everyone in Ukraine who wants something of a better life for themselves and children has been labelled a terrorist/nazi/killer.  This hatred is completely for new for me.

 You heard me so maybe you really do get what I'm saying. 
Hunter Biden isn't the devil, Kiev isn't Moscow, and this isn't 1812. The Ukraine crisis was created by journalists and it's monitored in the social networks. It's on the most popular gaming platforms and it's a Beta version of World of Warcraft... with massive mods.
In a perfect world, it's a simple economic decision to choose the correct International agreements to improve the Ukrainian economy.
In the real world, it's been distorted into a coup d'etat and a possible civil war. How productive is that? There's no logic. 
If Hunter Biden gets a job in Ukraine, the US will be accused of using him as a bargaining chip. If Russia even whispers that it likes ethnic Russians, Russia will be accused of supporting insurgents and destabilizing the region.
The media is Captain Obvious and the journalists are drama llamas. People are being damaged and even killed in Ukraine but what's being done to address the real $$ issues?
Imo, if foreigners really cared about the people of Ukraine, there wouldn't have been a coup d'etat, the demonstrations in Kiev would have stayed peaceful, and Ukraine would have gotten the $16 billion bailout from Moscow and would be creating new economic ties with Europe. If the West really cared about the people of Ukraine, they would have let Russia bailout Ukraine and added their support too. 
The "West vs Russia" game is responsible for all the damages in Ukraine. 
Now I'll ask you. Why was an obviously ethnic-Russian-hostile interim government hand-picked for Kiev? Also, how did installing the hostile government help the Ukrainian people or the Ukrainian economy?
Two words - Epic Fail. 
Back on-topic. I believe all the sanctions against Russia are temporary. But even if they get worse, Russia survived and thrived for 70 years in isolation so no, I don't believe the sanctions will be anything worse than an inconvenience... for Russia.
But it could be very damaging for Europe. Great Britain was heavily damaged by sanctions under Napolean's Continental System. It's why he was spying on Russia from Poland in a Polish military uniform. It's also what led to the Battle of Borodino. Napolean believed that Russia was violating the System's sanctions and supporting Great Britain. 
Well, now the tables have turned and John Kerry believes that France is violating the sanctions with plans to sell 2 amphibious warships to Russia later this year. So maybe the US will sanction France for that?
The sanctions are just wrong in so many ways. Businesses want profits and that creates suspicion and distrust. And even if the sanctions could prevent Russia from meddling in an impoverished country, how will Europe survive? Those countries are already suffering from the global economic crisis and there's riots over austerity. If it keeps getting worse due to sanctions on Russia, the Ukraine crisis could end up being just one in a long list. For references, see Spain and Greece. 
@ Hanna. Thanks  ::  but yeah, it is really easy to get information on almost any topic with Google... and aeronautics and space are my 2 favorite topics.

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## Hanna

If these people can't even stand Russians, their own neighbouring country, how do they expect to be EU members? As an EU state they are supposed to embrace "multiculturalism" which includes anyone from analfabets from Africa, to moslem middle easterners, not to mention any sexual orientation under the sun.  
And imagine the hypocrisy; if any other member state in Europe started erecting statues of known Nazis! There would furore in media! Likewise Nazi marches. In Ukraine (and occasionally the Baltics) it's not only allright, but it makes you some kind of heroic freedom fighter.  
If I expressed views like that under my own name online, I'd never be employed again and might face prosecution. But in Ukraine, it's ok, according to the EU.

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## bytemare

yeah, everywhere you look there are nazi marches and Jews being killed (sarcasm).    
Rambling from a resident in Kiev:
[8:57:07]  XXXX: да , Россие не выгодно чтобы здесь был порядок , они теперь  постоянно будут провоцировать и создавать бардак . Европа зависит от их  газа и побаивается Путина , Америка молодцы
[9:10:18] XXXX: И такой  жестокости к украинцам и ненависти мы ни от кого не слышали , а как они  радовались , что Крым стал Россией ( но это временно) , это не передать 
Why not tune into Ukrainian media to see what's going on Ukraine?  Most of the people you'll find agree with the above.   
By  the way, there are tensions in several European countries regarding  immigrants and "multiculturalism."  Even western media reports such  incidents and attitudes.  This unfortunately seems to happen everywhere  in the world.  For the record, Ukraine has no such laws against national  origin and sexual orientation.

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## Alex_krsk

> If these people can't even stand Russians, their own neighbouring country, how do they expect to be EU members?

 They may expect whatever they want but  EU membership of the western Ukraine is impossible in next 50 years. The whole EU economy will sink if that happens. 
Sanctions end results so far:
- rouble goes up
- russian stock market goes up
- oil prices go up

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## diogen_

> They may expect whatever they want but EU membership of the western Ukraine is impossible in next 50 years. *The whole EU economy will sink if that happens.*

 How specifically such a disaster  might happen? ::

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## Hanna

> yeah, everywhere you look there are nazi marches and Jews being killed (sarcasm).    
> Rambling from a resident in Kiev:
> [8:57:07]  XXXX: да , Россие не выгодно чтобы здесь был порядок , они теперь  постоянно будут провоцировать и создавать бардак . Европа зависит от их  газа и побаивается Путина , Америка молодцы
> [9:10:18] XXXX: И такой  жестокости к украинцам и ненависти мы ни от кого не слышали , а как они  радовались , что Крым стал Россией ( но это временно) , это не передать 
> Why not tune into Ukrainian media to see what's going on Ukraine?  Most of the people you'll find agree with the above.   
> By  the way, there are tensions in several European countries regarding  immigrants and "multiculturalism."  Even western media reports such  incidents and attitudes.  This unfortunately seems to happen everywhere  in the world.  For the record, Ukraine has no such laws against national  origin and sexual orientation.

 Yes, of course I know of the issues with immigration and racism in the EU. 
As for the Ukrainian perspective - well I don't have to read Ukrainian perspectives for that. There are pro-Ukraine (i.e. current Kiev government, also pro USA agenda) article in every newspaper and TV channel around  me. I can get it in every different language that I speak. So I am well aware what the narrative is.  
However, after looking into it, and trying to form my own opinion amidst all the propganda, I have come to the conclusion that *my opinion is:*   Western Ukrainians are being manipulated to support the US and EU agenda in relation to Russia and geopolitics in Eastern Ukraine.They lost a lot more than they gained by this coup d'etat, and it's becoming more evident every day.Some people are fooled by general naivité in respect to the EU and the USA, and their real objectives in Ukraine.Some are genuine Ukrainian nationalists, which I respect, even though it means they won't be able to share a state with other parts of the nation, who don't share their view on history, language and culture. Not everyone within their current borders wants to play Ukrainian nationalist, speak Ukrainian and partcipate in Russia-bashing. Particularly if they are in fact Russian, Jewish, Moldovan etc. If that's the country they want to be, they may need to shrink the country  a bit and let others go their own way.It's ludicrous to imagine that the Ukraine can join the EU in the next 15 years, even if they started preparing tomorrow.  It can't happen for more reasons than I care to list, and it's shameless of the EU to dangle this unrealistic goal, when it knows perfectly well what the reality is. In addition, the values that are supported by quite a few in Western Ukraine (ultra nationalism and nazi adoration) are not normally acceptable in the EU.Russia has not acted with complete integrity either! Russia could have done more to calm down the situation in Eastern Ukraine, if it wanted. It has, if anything, spurred the rebels on.It's unfair to allow the situation in Donbass to escalate, keep condemning and blackpainting the government in Kiev, then suddenly turn a cold shoulder and ignore pleas for annexation or support, coming from the Donbass.Moscow is playing some kind of game here too, for sure! The only mitigating circumstance is that Russia didn't start all this, the West did. Russia is responding to a situation, it did not instigate it.I also see that personal finances is behind a lot of what's going on in Eastern Ukraine. People's nationalities are not a clearcut question, and many are willing to go with whatever offers them the most money in their pocket at the end of the day - which is understandable.  
I'm finding the whole situation disturbing and uppsetting.  *I don't want to put my nose where it's not wanted.* Now that I have formed my own view of it, I guess it's just a matter of waiting and seeing what happens with the election and the People's republics....

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## Hanna

> How specifically such a disaster  might happen?

 No it won't, but the Ukraine would have to "voluntarily" opt out of the CAP (joint acricultural policy), some regional funds and industrial subsidies. Essentially everything that would really help their economy!  
The CAP is really only applied to Western Europe, hugely unfair, really - at the moment. It was a condition the Eastern European countries had to agree to, to join the EU, and they did, even if that meant they lost out on one of the biggest advantages there is, to EU membership.  
If you look at a country like Romania, EU hasn't really helped them at all, and they've been quite blatantly discriminated against as a nation in the EU. It's quite upsetting. The same thing would happen with Ukraine. And mind you, this is AT LEAST 15 years in the future, even if everything goes exactly to plan.  
I don't see what the attraction of the EU would be, from a Ukrainian perspective, if they are being realistic about it.

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## Alex_krsk

> No it won't, but the Ukraine would have to "voluntarily" opt out of the CAP (joint acricultural policy), some regional funds and industrial subsidies. Essentially everything that would really help their economy!

 To meet EU standards Ukrainian economy needs at least 70 billion of investment  besides the debt of about the same amount. If you withdraw 150 billion euro from EU economy what's gonna happen to it?

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## Hanna

I'm not sure where the figure 70 mil. comes from, and who can say that with such certainty, but whether it's 30 mil or 70 it's still outside of reach, and yes, I am aware of that. It's too bad the Ukrainians don't seem to be.  
So that's what I am saying, Ukrainians need to be realistic and not let the EU paint fluffy pink clouds in front of their eyes. 
It's hard to imagine that the current leaders don't understand what the real prospects are. I think they do.  
The EU can't solve the problems of much smaller and much older member states, so how could it solve the problems in Ukraine, which are more complex on most levels than what the EU normally faces?  
Furthermore; Ukraine would be at the top of the list population- and size-wise in the EU. It's unthinkable that Brussels would shift the balance eastwards that much, unless it knew EXACTLY what it was getting, i.e. the most obedient puppies in the Union. Based on the goings-on in Ukraine, that's just not the nature of that country. The EU cannot risk a situation whereby Eastern and Southern countries would be in majority and could shift the economic policies. Ukraine would tip the balance over the equilibrium.  
This just isn't going to happen for hundreds of reasons. There _is_ a union that will take Ukraine as it is, and be happy to welcome it, but it's not the EU and it won't be for 15 years, at least, if ever. That's the reality.  
Personally I'd love to have Ukraine in the EU like I always said (at least until the violence started) but it's a political decision and people like me do not decide.   *I predict it will NEVER join.
Same as Turkey.*  
Turkey went along with the EUs games for over a decade, like a rabbit chasing a carrot on a stick. Eventually they realised it was mainly just a game, that they were not treated with respect and nothing would come of all their efforts. So they turned to form alliances with other countries in the Middle East.

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## Alex_krsk

> *I predict it will NEVER join.
> Same as Turkey.*

 Speaking about western ukraine it has some chances to join as an agricultural area like romania or moldova with no industry at all.

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## Hanna

> Speaking about western ukraine it has some chances to join as an agricultural area like romania or moldova with no industry at all.

 Yes, I agree. If they split the country somehow (countries with any border conflicts whatsoever cannot join), and then if they do EXACTLY what Brussels says, for ~10 years, then they can probably join... 
Moldova will probably join at some point, but it needs to resolve the Pridnestrovie / Transdniestr situation and upgrade the industry... just for starters.  
Lord only knows how Romania got into the EU! 
They must have just dropped the actual requirements for some political reasons. 
It was sort of underdeveloped in socialism I think, then things got WORSE in the 90s, some Western companies entered the market place (very visible there, with German companies and Italian). 
Then suddenly the whole country is in the EU.... Including the gypsies who were the only ones that were ready. "Paris, here I come!" 
 I have actually never seen anything like Romania in Europe. I didn't think it existed. 
Both Belarus and Ukraine are much better developed. Even Moldova, I think ( I visited all these countries in 2011).  
I don't think the EU will ever do that again, there has been  A LOT of criticism about how Romania and Bulgaria got into the EU in the first place, they were not actually fully qualified.  
And the EU has taken them for a ride. They've got nothing to show for their membership so far, other perhaps the property bubble at the coast in Bulgaria. But EU companies are doing great business there.  
In Romania, almost everybody seemed to suffer from depression. They thought they were crap and couldn't even believe anybody would want to visit their country....  Can you imagine!  
A very large proportion of the population just left for Spain, Italy, the UK, Germany...  
It was really tragic. Several completely normal people who had even lived abroad told me that Ceaucescu and socialism was better than how they have it today (as EU citizens). To me, all this was totally unexpected. I thought things were getting better there, and they loved the EU. But the reality was the opposite. And they told me the corruption is horrible.  
I was touched, and felt really badly for them. Partly guilty, because I used to be tremendously in favour of EU expansion eastwards, when I was at university in the 1990s. I was even in an organisation that worked for it. But look how it worked out.

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## Alex_krsk

To split Ukraine was  a plan of all the three - Brussels, Moscow and Washington (some ppl say there's an agreement and all this madness is just perfectly staged). The question was who's going to pay for that. The main ukraine's sponsor Russia seems to quit. EU doesn't have money. The US just doesn't want to pay.  We only have to wait what's gonna happen. 
The best solution for the US and EU is Russian invasion.... but Putin doesn't seem to follow that. 
The keyword here is - gas 
If Ukraine splits and nobody invests the western part (east part well keep being funded bu Russia like all last 20 years) it's gonna be the worst times in whole Ukrainian history.   

> and upgrade the industry.

   here it means to DEMOLISH the industry   

> Several completely normal people told me that Ceaucescu and socialism was better than how they have it today (as EU citizens). To me, all this was totally unexpected. I thought things were getting better there, and they loved the EU. But the reality was the opposite.
> I was touched, and felt really badly for them. Partly guilty, because I used to be tremendously in favour of EU expansion eastwards, when I was at university in the 1990s. I was even in an organisation that worked for it. But look how it worked out.

 Only those countries got better that had been granted permission to have it's own industry. Ask anybody in e.g. Slovakia is it better in  EU or was it better back in 80s? They would tell you the same (but not on camera)

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## diogen_

> It's unfair to allow the situation in Donbass to escalate, keep condemning and blackpainting the government in Kiev, then suddenly turn a cold shoulder and ignore pleas for annexation or support, coming from the Donbass.

 This is indeed a huge moral dilemma  Russia faces. But Putin was very specific that the accretion of the whole Novorissiya to Ukraine  and not just two of its  constituent regions was the historic blunder. Thus, the task at hand as he sees it is to liberate the rest of the disputed territories, and only then he will accede to embrace the newly fledged province to Russia. The process is in the making now. Contrariwise,  once he were to artificially splinter off Donbass from Novorissiya, the remaining part of it would be under  severe duress of unmitigated suffering of not being able to satisfy its so much cherished yet unattainable yearning  to join Russia. President of Russia simply can’t afford such a myopic stance. How can he explain away his hastiness to future generations?

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## Hanna

> This is indeed a huge moral dilemma  Russia faces. But Putin was very specific that the accretion of the whole Novorissiya to Ukraine  and not just two of its  constituent regions was the historic blunder. Thus, the task at hand as he sees it is to liberate the rest of the disputed territories, and only then he will accede to embrace the newly fledged province to Russia. The process is in the making now. Contrariwise,  once he were to artificially splinter off Donbass from Novorissiya, the remaining part of it would be under  severe duress of unmitigated suffering of not being able to satisfy its so much cherished yet unattainable yearning  to join Russia. President of Russia simply can’t afford such a myopic stance. How can he explain away his hastiness to future generations?

 Oh I didn't know he had said that. So maybe he's waiting. That's quite a game of dare he's playing then.  
If he can pull that off, then Russia has well and truly arrived, and Putin will be legend.  Completely notwithstanding any ethical considerations, it would be pure genius to get not only Crimea, but the whole "Novorossiya" without meeting any meaningful resistance.  
While the US shows the world again and again how utterly incompetent they are att understanding any people at all, outside their own borders. Unless of course the destruction and suffering they are causing is deliberate.  
In that case, will Putin draw the line with Pridnestrovie, or not? 
That's officially Moldova, a different country, although not NATO and not EU. 
(I have actually been in Pridnestrovie, and those people LOVE Russia and they also idolize the Soviet Union. They are not even ethnic Russians, most of them, but they love it anyway. They have big banners all around town in Tiraspol and Bender, saying nice things about Russia... It's a very fascinating place - but does not appear on any map, hence I did not actually know it was there, until I was told I needed a "visa" for it, in order to travel from Kishinev to Odessa. w00t! It turned out to be a quite unique place of very independent minded and cool people. They have something in common with the People's Republics in Lugansk and Donetsk, I think.)  
If Putin does NOT plan to do anything more in Ukraine, because he's suddenly decided that he DOES respect the borders of Ukraine, then I think the decent thing to do would be to try to calm things down in Ukraine to the very best of Russia's ability. Washington is right on one question - of course the "people's republics" would listen, if Russia told them in no uncertain terms! 
 It's not right to let people ruin their own lives, destroy their communities and have lives lost for a hopeless cause. If Putin knows he will never annex, he should try to patch things up within the existing borders, rather than letting things progress any further. Anything else is just spiteful and cruel! 
But what about Odessa, at the Westernmost tip of "Novorossiya". It has no people's republic and although they speak Russian, how much do they identify with Russia? Would they really welcome Russia, if that is the end game of all this?

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## Hanna

> To split Ukraine was  a plan of all the three - Brussels, Moscow and Washington (some ppl say there's an agreement and all this madness is just perfectly staged).

 I think that is too extreme a conspiracy.... 
I know Russia is Conspiracy Central No 1 so all I'll say is, no, hardly likely. It's too far fetched. 
And the US can't be trusted, surely Russia knows that by now, and wouldn't make a secret deal with the US, since it normally doesn't keep its end of the bargain. Remember what happened with the NATO expansion promise, and Yalta which was a legit agreement, then suddenly the West backed and started laying claim to areas outside its' agreed area. I don't think Russia would bother making a deal about it, and I think this was relatively unexpected for Russia too.  
It might be that there was a scenario prepared and a script to follow for Crimea. Frankly it worked a little "too" well.... but that Russia had not anticipated quite the turn of events that expired in the Donbass. So for Donbass Russia had to improvise. Hence the long silence while Russia was figuring out how to handle it.  
I personally think the US *thought* it could pull this off (get all of Ukraine into their camp) but miscalculated due to poor intelligence, wishful thinking or whatever. Whereupon Russia immediately launched "Get Crimea, scenario No x" and was both skilled and lucky in that it went as well as it did. Which obviously infuriated Washington who had expected to have free reign after it got rid of Yanukovich.  
Listening to Victoria Nuland it's obvious that she is cynical and a real player to the core of her being. I hope this whole debacle costs her her career. What an unpleasant and snakey person.  
This whole colour / flower revolution thing, is an absolute staple for the US. It tried it tons of times. I read a very entertaining story about a "Jasmine" revolution that was attempted in China. It failed and the US ambassador got kicked out of the country. 
When I personally was in Belarus, they tried for the 3rd time, I think, a little orchid (?) revolution but there were not a lot of takers. But the European press was tipped off beforehand and the propaganda angle was insane - filming a crowd of 50 as if it was 5000, and passing off a mobile phone promotion event as a protest meeting. I think they try this every now and then, as soon as there is something that might spur people on, like a this EU decision in Ukraine, or the currency devaluation in Belarus.  
My impression is that most of what happened in Donbass was relatively spontaneous, and Russia chose to mildly encourage it, until suddenly it appeared to make a u-turn and pretend it was not involved. 
Keeping everybody guessing what will happen next.   *Stay tuned for episode 3 of "Madness, Murder and Mayhem in Ukraine", the action continues after this short break! *

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## Eric C.

And what they have next is a presidential election in 1 week or so, after which I hope all the armed freaks wearing masks can be legally erased from existence, and all the Ukrainian civilians can finally breathe a sigh of relief.

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## E-learner

> And what they have next is a presidential election in 1 week or so, after which I hope all the armed freaks wearing masks can be legally erased from existence, and all the Ukrainian civilians can finally breathe a sigh of relief.

 The second tour is expected.
A lot of time for Putin to probe other regions whether he can destabilise them  

> without meeting any meaningful resistance.

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## Alex_krsk

> I think that is too extreme a conspiracy.... 
> I know Russia is Conspiracy Central No 1 so all I'll say is, no, hardly likely. It's too far fetched.

 The phrase "To split Ukraine was a plan of all the three - Brussels, Moscow and Washington"  doesn't necessarily imply a conspiracy it may be just the same goal that matches for all three. And in phrase "some ppl say there's an agreement and all this madness is just perfectly staged" there is *some ppl say*  clause which you might have overlooked and those *ppl*  are not necessarily russian.   

> And the US can't be trusted, surely Russia knows that by now, and wouldn't make a secret deal with the US, since it normally doesn't keep its end of the bargain. Remember what happened with the NATO expansion promise, and Yalta which was a legit agreement, then suddenly the West backed and started laying claim to areas outside its' agreed area. I don't think Russia would bother making a deal about it, and I think this was relatively unexpected for Russia too.
> It might be that there was a scenario prepared and a script to follow for Crimea. Frankly it worked a little "too" well.... but that Russia had not anticipated quite the turn of events that expired in the Donbass. So for Donbass Russia had to improvise. Hence the long silence while Russia was figuring out how to handle it. My impression is that most of what happened in Donbass was relatively spontaneous, and Russia chose to mildly encourage it, until suddenly it appeared to make a u-turn and pretend it was not involved.

 No one can be trusted, but. But here Putin went a bit further then before. Russia doesn't want to play bad guy's role any more. And the US cannot do anything about that. 
All Putin has to do now is just to wait (not invading eastern ukraine, not giving money just doing nothing).    

> Listening to Victoria Nuland it's obvious that she is cynical and a real player to the core of her being. I hope this whole debacle costs her her career. What an unpleasant and snakey person.

 Look at Psaki. I'm afraid the only requirement left for an applicant to get hired in US state departament is to be plain dumb.

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## diogen_

> And what they have next is a presidential election in 1 week or so, after which I hope all the armed freaks wearing masks can be legally erased from existence, and all the Ukrainian civilians can finally breathe a sigh of relief.

 What it is your recipe how “the armed freaks wearing masks can be legally erased from existence”? Even pro- Ukrainian media outlets don't consider such turn of events feasible.   

> Референдум не дал ответа на вопрос, что будет с Донецкой и Луганской областями дальше. Тем временем *сепаратистские настроения в регионе усиливаются*, и эксперты называют три варианта развития ситуации. 
>  Во-первых, остается шанс на то, что конфликт удастся урегулировать мирным путем. 
>  “Я бы не исключал возможности, что Донбасс останется в составе Украины, но с особым статусом. Например, статусом автономии”, — предполагает глава Центра прикладных политических исследований Пента Владимир Фесенко.
> Достичь этого можно только в результате переговоров между центральной властью и местными элитами — тем же миллиардером Ринатом Ахметовым. 
>  Второй вариант — создание квазигосударства. 
>  “Постепенно Донецкий и Луганский регионы превратятся в анклавы по типу Сектора Газа. Это будут захваченные вооруженными людьми территории, где не будет никакой власти — ни центральной, ни местной. И так может продолжаться в течение нескольких лет”, — предупреждает руководитель социологической службы Украинский барометр Виктор Небоженко. 
>  И, наконец, самый худший вариант — продолжение военных действий, превращение Донбасса в территорию долгоиграющей гражданской войны со взаимными жертвами. 
>  “Или еще хуже — превращение Донбасса в Чечню 1990-х годов, когда бизнес и экономика были полностью уничтожены и зарабатывать могли только те, у кого есть оружие, — грабежами, захватом заложников”, — рисует мрачные перспективы Фесенко. 
>  Пока, по мнению политологов, возможны и первый и второй варианты. Как минимум ближайшие несколько месяцев ситуация будет колебаться между непризнанной республикой и автономией. А вот что вряд ли произойдет, так это присоединение Восточной Украины к России, считает Фесенко.

 Корреспондент: Образец законности. Как прошел референдум на Донбассе - Korrespondent.net

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## Eric C.

> What it is your recipe how “the armed freaks wearing masks can be legally erased from existence”? Even pro- Ukrainian media outlets don't consider such turn of events feasible.    Корреспондент: Образец законности. Как прошел референдум на Донбассе - Korrespondent.net

 I doubt the civilian people there support any of the sides of the conflict. What it really is is some masked a**holes who want to play a war vs. regular Ukrainian army. It's not a surprise that the latter should demonstrate a bigger ability to smash the enemy than the former one, which is eventually going to happen. It's not very smart to compare the area to Chechnya, as the masked clowns just lack so many attributes the Chechen fighters had.

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## Hanna

> I doubt the civilian people there support any of the sides of the conflict. What it really is is some masked a**holes who want to play a war vs. regular Ukrainian army. It's not a surprise that the latter should demonstrate a bigger ability to smash the enemy than the former one, which is eventually going to happen. It's not very smart to compare the area to Chechnya, as the masked clowns just lack so many attributes the Chechen fighters had.

 So on what basis are you saying this?  
Are you in Ukraine? Have you got some kind of inside information?  
And Chechen fighters are people you admire, judging on the tone of your comment?  (Deleted. L.) 
As opposed to the forces in Eastern Ukraine that you consider "clowns".   
I think you filled today's quota of trolling.

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## Eric C.

> So on what basis are you saying this?  
> Are you in Ukraine? Have you got some kind of inside information?  
> And Chechen fighters are people you admire, judging on the tone of your comment?  (Deleted. L.) 
> As opposed to the forces in Eastern Ukraine that you consider "clowns".   
> I think you filled today's quota of trolling.

 By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area. No position or personal attitude have been expressed by what I've said, really. But what I meant is that they were really different compared to the "Donetsk republicans", and whether they were good or evil, they had some ideas, beliefs and combat skills that are helpful in such fights, and that those "Donetsk republicans" don't have. And I mentioned them for the only reason of someone else having mentioned them while addressing me. 
I cannot help you with the quotas, maybe the mods can?...

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## UhOhXplode

@ Eric. Earlier in another thread you made this comment:   

> If they ARE backed up by a certain country, and that country does invade in case of a counter terrorist operation, well, then at least everyone will see the real face of that country.

 And now you say this:   

> I doubt the civilian people there support any of the sides of the conflict. *What it really is is some masked a**holes who want to play a war vs. regular Ukrainian army. It's not a surprise that the latter should demonstrate a bigger ability to smash the enemy than the former one, which is eventually going to happen.* It's not very smart to compare the area to Chechnya, as the masked clowns just lack so many attributes the Chechen fighters had.

 Since the Ukrainian military and police have been very disorganized and are working with very dated equipment then I'm forced to make this conclusion:
If Russia was really training and arming the pro-Russians, the entire Donbas region would probably already be secured by the Peoples Republics. 
But they are only a**holes and clowns playing war if you think it's a game. As for me, I believe this is happening in real-life.   

> By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area. No position or personal attitude have been expressed by what I've said, really. But what I meant is that they were really different compared to the "Donetsk republicans", and whether they were good or evil, they had some ideas, beliefs and *combat skills that are helpful in such fights*, and that those "Donetsk republicans" don't have. And I mentioned them for the only reason of someone else having mentioned them while addressing me....

 The pro-Russians have suffered a lot of casualties and they were driven out of Mariupol by a business man and some steel workers. That wouldn't have happened that quickly if the pro-Russians were trained and well armed troops. Imo, those masked pro-Russians are Ukrainian citizens defending themselves against ethnic abuse. 
And yeah, the Chechen "residents" had impressive combat skills and those are skills nobody has without a lot of special training. Imo, Chechnya needs a LOT of watching... That's all I'll say about that since I don't ever like to have to think about Chechens. 
@ Hanna. I think I may know what's happening now. President Putin was fine with Ukraine till the protests began on the Maidan in Kiev. His 2 concerns are the welfare of the compatriots and a workable relationship with Ukraine. That may be happening now.
Mr. Poroshenko has 54.7% in the polls for the upcoming election. He's pro-Ukrainian but he did say he would reject NATO and that he would work for the welfare of all the Ukrainian people. Also, he's not an ultranationalist and he does have a lot of his confection business in Russia. 
Since President Putin has softened his stand against Poroshenko and also towards the election, this may be somebody Putin can work with. If the elections do move foreward, it's very likely that Poroshenko will win the Presidency. 
This situation is definitely worth watching. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/19/wo...ance.html?_r=0 
Btw, thanks for the information about Romania and Bulgaria.  ::  I didn't know anything about those countries.

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## Hanna

> By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area. No position or personal attitude have been expressed by what I've said, really. But what I meant is that they were really different compared to the "Donetsk republicans", and whether they were good or evil, they had some ideas, beliefs and combat skills that are helpful in such fights, and that those "Donetsk republicans" don't have. And I mentioned them for the only reason of someone else having mentioned them while addressing me. 
> I cannot help you with the quotas, maybe the mods can?...

 
Have you got ANY proof or supporting facts whatsoever, or did you cook up the most insulting and sinister conspiracy theory on this site so far?  
Source to even remotely back any of this, please!  
To come to a Russia site, and make comments in favour of Caucasian terrorists is like turning up at an American site and starting to express sympathy for the 9-11 bombers. Rude, insensitive and deliberately provocative.  
To compare the situation in Ukraine, with muslim terrorism backed from Saudi Arabia is either ignorant, or a very desperate gripping of straws.  
If those are your views, then this is not really the place to air them.

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## eisenherz

> President Putin...His 2 concerns are the welfare of the compatriots and a workable relationship with Ukraine....

 haha ja sure... there is no self-interest of Russia in this at all..

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## iCake

> haha ja sure... there is no self-interest of Russia in this at all..

 Let me guess, you're all self-righteous and never do anything for your own profit  ::  
You made my day  ::  Reinventing the wheel like that again. No one had ever expected this nor had they ever thought that more or less all actions any human did were to sutisfy their needs

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## eisenherz

@ iCake
hmm, it was not exactly me who claimed that Russia is not doing it for their own profit
quite the opposite actually. 
i am with you on this one; I am not blaming Russia for pursuing their own interests (and largely support them); i am just against pretending it is 'for the wellbeing of compatriots'

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## Eric C.

> Have you got ANY proof or supporting facts whatsoever, or did you cook up the most insulting and sinister conspiracy theory on this site so far?  
> Source to even remotely back any of this, please!  
> To come to a Russia site, and make comments in favour of Caucasian terrorists is like turning up at an American site and starting to express sympathy for the 9-11 bombers. Rude, insensitive and deliberately provocative.  
> To compare the situation in Ukraine, with muslim terrorism backed from Saudi Arabia is either ignorant, or a very desperate gripping of straws.  
> If those are your views, then this is not really the place to air them.

 Has your reading ability been affected in some bad way, or whatever else has happened to you? I've already clearly stated I have no sympathy for those Chechen rebels, and I also had said what you just repeated, that comparing the situation in Ukraine to the one in Chechnya is not very smart. So, you now blame me for making that comparison, even though I said it should not be made in the first place? That's just incredible.

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## Alex_krsk

> By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area. No position or personal attitude have been expressed by what I've said, really. But what I meant is that they were really different compared to the "Donetsk republicans", and whether they were good or evil, they had some ideas, beliefs and combat skills that are helpful in such fights, and that those "Donetsk republicans" don't have. And I mentioned them for the only reason of someone else having mentioned them while addressing me. 
> I cannot help you with the quotas, maybe the mods can?...

 Do you consider seventy virgins as an "idea and belief" and independence as something else?

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## bytemare

> Have you got ANY proof or supporting facts whatsoever, or did you cook up the most insulting and sinister conspiracy theory on this site so far?  
> Source to even remotely back any of this, please!   *To come to a Russia site*, and make comments in favour of Caucasian terrorists is like turning up at an American site and starting to express sympathy for the 9-11 bombers. Rude, insensitive and deliberately provocative.  
> To compare the situation in Ukraine, with muslim terrorism backed from Saudi Arabia is either ignorant, or a very desperate gripping of straws.  
> If those are your views, then this is not really the place to air them.

 I thought this site was about Russian language, not a pro-Russia site.  Of course, if we're here then obviously we have some interest in all things dealing with Russia, but there are plenty of Russian speakers in the world who my not agree with policies of the Russian Federation.  FYI I'm not commenting on the previously mentioned conflict. 
Hanna, I really don't understand what you're trying to do here.  On one hand you've asked , "are you there (in Ukraine)?" "Do you have inside information from there?"  And also that why should you read the Ukraine media, when it's exactly the same as western media that's all around you.  I may be wrong on this, but from appearances it just seems you enjoy the opportunity to criticize "the west" and especially USA, and I don't see that you're actually interested in what's happening with respect to this conflict.  Somehow this translates as anti-west = pro Russia?    
Forgive me if I've misread your posts.

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## Hanna

@bytemare
I have no issue with honestly expressed questions, or with people having a well founded view that is different than my own. 
(Deleted. L.) 
Critisizing Russia for reasons grounded in reality is perfectly reasonable and I certainly don't mind it. I would do it myself, and have done. It's certainly not an ideal country.  
(Deleted. L.)

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## diogen_

> By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area.

 AFAIK, Chechen fighters are as omnipresent as American mercenaries in the Ukraine.)) Everyone knows about their existence but is still unable to capture these elusive creatures and demonstrate their true faces to the whole world thus far. So, it’s safer to consider all them byproducts of information wars for now.   

> I doubt the civilian people there support any of the sides of the conflict. What it really is is some masked a**holes who want to play a war vs. regular Ukrainian army. It's not a surprise that the latter should demonstrate a bigger ability to smash the enemy than the former one, which is eventually going to happen.

 You draw these conclusions from popular American press, don't you? I read NYT from time to time and find its coverage entertaining. But the editor-in-chief was fired the other day, as Putin would say, God knows why? ::    

> В американских СМИ активно муссируется и другое предположение: увольнение Абрамсон может быть связано с появлением в газете 3 мая репортажа из Славянска. В нем журналисты, которые провели несколько дней с пророссийскими сепаратистами, рассказали, что среди них нет граждан России, а *сами они в большей степени представляют местных жителей*, часть из которых — бывшие военные украинской и советской армии.

 Главный редактор The New York Times Джилл Абрамсон уволена со своего поста - Газета.Ru | Политика

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## Eric C.

> Do you consider seventy virgins as an "idea and belief" and independence as something else?

 I'm not sure what to say on the "seventy virgins" thing you brought up, but as for the independence, they had it as their foremost idea back in the 1990s too, didn't they? I feel like I cannot say anything further on this, or I'll probably be accused of having links to several terrorist groups or something... But you've got the idea. 
By the way, I can say I can perfectly understand Russia about their fight to keep integrity of their country in the 1990s. That was probably what a country should do in situations like that. So, I'm now wondering how they have been able to forget all THEY were doing, and take the position they took.

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## UhOhXplode

I said:   

> President Putin...His 2 concerns are the welfare of the compatriots and a workable relationship with Ukraine....

  

> haha ja sure... there is no self-interest of Russia in this at all..

 You missed one of the variables. X="compatriot welfare". Y="workable relationship". Z="profits". 
I realize my statement wasn't Extremely User-Friendly but most people would assume Z to be the most likely outcome for Y. 
Y and Z are vital to support X without W (warfare). Imo, anyone who doesn't understand that equation should seriously consider enrolling in a military academy - or at least take a course in military history.
The same equation was used during the colonization of America. In that case, the compatriots were fellow pilgrims and the workable relationship was with the Native Americans. W was frequently substituted for Y in the equation but the results were the same - the strategic military creation of the wealthiest nation on Earth - emphasis on "wealthiest". 
In a perfect world, the Native Americans would have been allowed to resolve their own International issues involving the new settlers.
In the real world, they live on reservations. And like I've said before, I'm not an idealist. 
/Lecture. 
There are variables in the Western equation that force me to side with Russia over the West (W=gay propaganda, X=racial chaos, Y=Anti-Christian ideals, Z=Harmful environment to raise kids in). When I have kids, they won't have to grow up with W, X, or Y. Imo, one of the most brilliant military strategies in history was depriving the victor of his spoils (ie. Napolean finding Moscow in ruins). So no, I've never believed that fortunes weren't a very important variable in military/political equations.
If President Putin wins this conflict, it will save a lot of Russian compatriots and create new options for enriching the economy in the long term. If he succeeds in bringing back Novorossiya, he could be one of the greatest Russian patriots in history. So yeah, self-interest is a strong motivation in any campaign.    

> @ iCake
> hmm, it was not exactly me who claimed that Russia is not doing it for their own profit
> quite the opposite actually.
> i am with you on this one; I am not blaming Russia for pursuing their own interests (and largely support them); i am just against pretending it is 'for the wellbeing of compatriots'

 Don't forget, more safe and healthy workers = more profits. So if you believe compatriots aren't valuable, try building a nation without them. I read that the USSR respected the workers and created one of the most powerful nations on Earth...   

> I thought this site was about Russian language....

 I learned how to speak English before I ever took a course in English grammar. How? By sitting in a classroom? No. I learned English by talking to other people and mimicking what they said.
Btw, I've learned more of the Russian language by posting in these threads than I've learned by studying the language. The active debate gives me a strong incentive to learn.   

> ....translates as anti-west = pro Russia?....

 I didn't notice. I've seen her give positive and negative opinions for both sides of the issues. I think it's more likely that she just has strong objections to a lot of Western policies but hey, a lot of people do. It doesn't mean they hate their side and love the other side.
Sometimes it's only a matter of logic and/or preference. 
Btw, I've met some anti-*insert country* people online and my conclusion is this: Anybody that's really anti-*insert country* will probably be anti-*insert country* no matter what country they live in. I think it goes way beyond preference for them.   

> AFAIK, Chechen fighters are as omnipresent as American mercenaries in the Ukraine.)) Everyone knows about their existence but is still unable to capture these elusive creatures and demonstrate their true faces to the whole world thus far. So, it’s safer to consider all them byproducts of information wars for now.
> You draw these conclusions from popular American press, don't you? I read NYT from time to time and find its coverage entertaining. But the editor-in-chief was fired the other day, as Putin would say, God knows why? Главный редактор The New York Times Джилл Абрамсон уволена со своего поста - Газета.Ru | Политика

 I bookmarked that article. It was titled "Behind the masks in Ukraine": http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...etType=nyt_now
Jill Abramson made a fatal mistake. She allowed facts to be published that didn't support the Western political narrative. I wasn't surprised that they fired her and she's probably at the top of the NSA watch list now.   

> ....By the way, I can say I can perfectly understand Russia about their fight to keep integrity of their country in the 1990s. That was probably what a country should do in situations like that. So, I'm now wondering how they have been able to forget all THEY were doing, and take the position they took.

 I read about the 1990's in Russia. What a nightmare! But Putin paid off the foreign debts and saved the country. It's one of the reasons I have so much respect for President Putin. Very few (if any) modern leaders have done as much to rebuild a nation as he has.
Btw, I believe it was because of the 1990/s that the Russians took the position they took. The best lessons are from experience. People here can't even get a decent job without it.

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## Alex_krsk

> they had it as their foremost idea back in the 1990s too, didn't they? I feel like I cannot say anything further on this, or I'll probably be accused of having links to several terrorist groups or something... But you've got the idea.

 They had had got de facto independence in 1996. What had happened next?

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## capecoddah

Result of sanctions (from ICQ): 
(14:57) :
I have bought a replacement cartridge for water filter Brita, Germany. But wine from California still absent in the store 
 (14:59) :
stupid sanctions

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## Hanna

Brita water filters huh? Russia is truly going middle class.  ::  
Plenty of other countries make lovely wine. And all electronics are made in China. 
It's probably both character building and good for the wallet to be under US sanctions. As long as Europe and China don't join in, it will hardly even be noticable.

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## UhOhXplode

The US Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers are NOT happy. They want the sanctions against Russia to stop and they plan to take out full-page newspaper ads to oppose any new sanctions against Russia. Business groups oppose any new sanctions on Russia 
If the Obama administration defies the wealthy American corporations, there could be some serious **** about to come down on the White House. It's those corporations that are keeping the US economy alive.

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## Hanna

Some ex USSR states signed a deal with the EU today. Mission accomplished.
They look they are about to start singing "The more we are together".  
Interestingly even the BBC admits that the EU was pressured by the US to not agree to a Ukrainian deal while the Ukraine still had a favoured status with Russia.  
The US forced Ukraine to choose, whereupon Yanukovich had to choose the best option, which was Russia's. Well that was not the "right" choice, so trigger plan B, simply get rid of the government that made the "wrong" choice, and make sure a new one is installed that will choose "right". Now accomplished but to a higher price than the Machievellian plotters in the CIA anticipated.  
Meanwhile these ex USSR countries are fooling themselves. The EU will not accept any new members for a long time, and these would be at the back of the queue anyway. Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova don't qualify for EU membership due to having unresolved border issues, and that is just the beginning. They will be third class associates, at best. This is a farce.    

> The US Chamber of Commerce and the National  Association of Manufacturers are NOT happy. They want the sanctions  against Russia to stop and they plan to take out full-page newspaper ads  to oppose any new sanctions against Russia. Business groups oppose any new sanctions on Russia 
> If the Obama administration defies the wealthy American corporations,  there could be some serious **** about to come down on the White House.  It's those corporations that are keeping the US economy alive.

 Interesting.  For me it's gone so far that I have no issue with the USA carrying on  with these sanctions. They hurt the USA a fair bit - China, India,  Russia and others don't stick with sanctions. But in countries that are  subject to the sanctions, to some degree it actually forces them to be  inventive and  prevent their countries from being  "Americanised". Neither is necessarily a bad thing. The only tragic thing about it is when these countries can't get hold of patented medicine by US corporation; apparently leading to deaths. 
And if general "human rights" and war-related matters were geniune causes for sanctions, then the US should sanction Saudi Arabia and China LONG before Russia. But wait, not possible. All this sanctions nonsense is totally hypocritical. Hopefully the US will be the country that loses out from it in the end. 
During the cold war, a family member of mine made a lot of money from circumventing (legally) silly blockades of perfectly legitimate goods in a certain field, by NATO associated countries towards Comecon countries. All that the ban led to, was a middle man (my family member's company) making a profit. Blockades and sanctions are pointless, but why not let the US lose market shares and friends by doing it.

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## Alex_krsk

> They look they are about to start singing "The more we are together".

    

> Mission accomplished.

 not yet   Меркель: СА Украины с ЕС вступит в силу после трехсторонних переговоров с РФ _По словам канцлера, задержка с вступлением в силу экономической части соглашения связана с необходимостью "найти решения, при которых опасения РФ будут сняты"._

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