# Forum About Russia Politics  Ukraine, the EU and Russia (suspension of EU - Ukraine talks)

## Hanna

*I'd really like to hear some opinions on Ukraine's suspension of the EU talks?* 
The talks were only about co-operation, right? Membership in the EU for Ukraine has never seriously been on the agenda, or has it?  
Personally I really like Ukraine and Ukrainians and would be very happy to be in the same union as them. I think it would add a lot, and Ukraine has a lot to offer the rest of Europe. But I'd hate to see Ukraine taken advantage of by Western European businesses, in the way that happened in some of the new EU member states in Eastern Europe - they are no particular EU fans 
Ukraine as a member would massively shift power eastwards in the EU. Probably all sorts of old and new dynamics would blossom. I can't see any of the major EU countries allowing it. With regards to membership I think Ukraine has been lead down the garden path in a similar fashion as has happened with Turkey. Their time was wasted for 30 years and they got nowhere. 
So what do Ukrainians think of increased co-operation with CIS and Russia instead?  
It's also very worrying to hear that Ukraine is in dire straits financially. I really hope they can settle on a way forward.

----------


## DrBaldhead

For the last 20 years Ukrainian politics were playing the same game with Russia over and over. Its rules were simple: "You like us and give us cheap (if not free) resources and we stay your friends, but if you don't, we'll sail away to some other place and you'll regret this loss of respect from your brother nation". 
For the last 10 years, our politics used to answer something like "Okay then, go. Go where you like. Just go already. Just don't forget to pay for the gas".
And so Ukraine constantly tries to proudly go away and constantly returns for yet another drama. Just like now. 
The stupidest thing is that this everlasting dialogue is held mostly between politics and energy corporations rather than actual nations. Many of us have relatives in Ukraine (I got several cousins there), and it's kinda sad that we have to file additional documents just to meet each other in person.

----------


## Lampada

*Міліція планує розігнати євромайдан у Києві о третій ночі*

----------


## Hanna

Yes, it's sad. There is something very sad about borders separating families. 
You ought to be like we are in Scandinavia. Friends with open borders, leaving the past behind and supporting each other through ups and downs. Since you more or less have a language in common. 
I talked to some people in Ukraine, and it seemed literally all of them had family, friends or both in Russia.  
Seems to me that Ukraine needs a strong leader who can set a course and stick with it until things start improving. Not idiots who beat each other up in parliament and sell out their country to the highest bidder. 
I read a comment by Putin, which seems to suggest that he thinks foreign interests are behind ongoing protests in Ukraine. What do you think of that?

----------


## DrBaldhead

> I read a comment by Putin, which seems to suggest that he thinks foreign interests are behind ongoing protests in Ukraine. What do you think of that?

 It's not really certain. Of course there are foreign interests. Ukraine would prove as quite a boost to European economy (although it might be fatal for the Ukrainian economy), and one more factor in political games with Russia.
But it also should be noted that the modern Ukraine actually was created after the collapse of USSR, and its modern borders include at least two quite different territories: Eastern Ukraine and Western Ukraine. The Eastern one is much more Russian than the Western one, whose people are the most of those who now stand in Kiev and demand to continue the integration with EU.

----------


## Hanna

The sad thing about these guys waving EU flags is that A LOT of regular people in the EU definitely do not want another Eastern country in the EU, particularly not one which has well known economic issues. And among the elites, they would want Ukraine in, to exploit it, to put it bluntly. 
The more I think about this, the more I wonder. 
I don't know what Russia's intentions regarding Ukraine are. 
Saw that there was an anti-EU demonstration in Moldova today. Apparently they are really against the EU there. Surprised to hear that, but if they want closer integration with the CIS, that's for them to decide. I thought they would want to be in the EU like Romania, clearly there is more to the story.  
Personally I would like Ukraine to be an EU member, but I have no strong feelings about it.  
And frankly, I wonder if it's really in Ukraine's best interest. It's pretty obvious that several of the Eastern European countries that joined recently have just been plucked off the good bits of their economy, but Western European companies, have become outsourcing locations, and sites for undesirable industries. In some cases, it's worked out "well" in that a lot of factories have been relocated to the East because it's cheaper and less workers rights (how ironic is that....)  But at least it offers jobs.   
I work in a multinational corporation right now, and I am aware that they are putting a lot of European IT services, including call centre in Budapest. HR administration is already being done by a third party in Poland and some software development in Slovenia. Thanks to the EU expansion, I think it might cheaper to do these services out of these EU countries, than in India + it's almost on the same time zone. Eastern European countries don't get the agricultural support that the old member states get. It's a 1st and 2nd tier Europe.  
Plus ever waitress and barista in London is from Eastern Europe.  Wtf - is this what European unity is about; is this what we wanted when we dreamt of Paneuropa.... ? The vision has been hijacked, or it was never realistic. It was supposed to be about solidarity and peace.

----------


## Dmitry Khomichuk

My opinion is that Ukraine had exhausted natural resource and limit of USSR inherited industry. Ukraine has no money to renovate it so it will just disappear. So political elite have to decide where to put population and where to get money for themselves from. Some facts say that Ukraine is going to transform into Latino-American agriculture-type country (such as newly announced law about selling the land). Land will be divided between political clans. Population is planned to be exported as labours to other countries. And here is the problem. Western part of the country for 20 years works in EU and eastern one - in Russia. That's why Ukraine wanted to sit on two chairs. To be associated with EU and to be an observer in Customs Union. But tensions between Russia and EU are growing today, so they both have radical position - only with us totally.
But EU has many internal problems, it is very "loose", so they just don't care about Ukraine. And it seems that Russia had just bought Ukraine politicians. 
Speaking about Moldova, they have a problem with Transnistria. Moldovans are threated to be Romanians (political course) because Romania is a part of EU. But for Transnistrians Romanians are just "Gipsy scum". But from other side there is Ukraine and if it will became EU member Transnistria will get a problem. They would like to unite with Russia but it is distant, so they live in "pending" style for years. And EU today have enough problems with Kosovo, Basques, Catalonia etc. I don't think they like other "poor eastern sh.it" plus having separatists. Only Romania is interested into Moldova inclusion because it will be easy to claim it as a part of Romania (other political sh.it, you see). 
P.S. In fact Ukraine anarchy and political situation is the same as it was starting from the XVII century, when it formed as so-so exact territory. It is separated into 4 parts. Western - was under Austria-Hungary/Polish rule, so they are Western Europe type. Eastern - industrial, mines etc. Heavy populated from Russia they are tied with Russia economically and see no future as an agricultural part of EU. Crimea - is a part of Ukraine only from 1954 (was transferred from Russian SFSR to Ukrainian SSR because of administrative reasons) in fact is Tatar/Russian by culture. And tatars are becoming a problem in Chechnya style. And central (last but not least  :: ) part, plays different political games. Corruption, state contracts, etc.

----------


## RedFox

Вступление в ЕС — это смерть для украинской экономики. К сожалению, многие на Украине этого не понимают.

----------


## Basil77

The saddest thing how this whole issue is clearly only about concern of political and buisness elites. People's opinion is asked only when it suits elite's interests. Like it was in 1991 when 70% of Ukrainians voted to stay in USSR but half a year later after massive propagandf 70% voted for separation.

----------


## Hanna

Yes, it's not like Ukrainians were second class citizens in the USSR.  
It's a big country, on the sea, with a well educated population. There HAS to be a way for the Ukraine to become prosperous and stable.  
Dmitry's perspective makes sense, and were interesting to read.   
Well the dice is cast about the USSR - that train has left! 
I guess it could have been transformed into something else - a union, minus the ideology, if people were fed up with that, and it wasn't working.  
But there is no going back, so they have to decide on a future with the EU, or the CIS.
Can't keep going back and forth - really, it seems more important just to make a decision and stick with it!  
In the UK right now, a lot of Scots would like to leave the Union, and they are having a referendum about it in August next year. A lot of what the pro-independence Scots are saying makes a lot of sense, actually, even if the thought of dissolving the union is very sad.  
The Scots are fed up with wars, they want a more developed welfare state and policies that are more closely geared towards the needs of Scots in general. There is going to be a referendum about it in August next year. I don't think it will happen, the countries are too closely integrated, for too long. But the question is a hot potato and I guess everybody's realised that it's got to be settled once and for all.   

> The saddest thing how this whole issue is clearly  only about concern of political and buisness elites. People's opinion is  asked only when it suits elite's interests. Like it was in 1991 when  70% of Ukrainians voted to stay in USSR but half a year later after  massive propagandf 70% voted for separation.

 Wow - interesting; I vaguely remember when all this happened, but I  wasn't paying a lot of attention to any of this at the time. I was in  school then.   
Wikipedia says:   

> A 17 March 1991 referendum showed 76.4% of Soviet citizens voting  to  retain the Union. However, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldavia,   Georgia, and Armenia did not participate.[7]

 Look at the figures in Central Asia; they must have been kicked out screaming, from the USSR, if these figures are correct. That is certainly not the message that was conveyed in the news that I watched at the time.  
All of this is just tragic - I am sure there is a "brain drain" of smart and driven people out of Ukraine and to other countries. 
The only business dealings I have ever had with Ukraine, was briefly with an outsourcing company of software development. They were great, but outsourcing is cr&p and I think Ukraine can do better than that. But how! It's a lovely country of nice and smart people - they don't deserve this, and I don't understand how Ukraine can be in such a mess.

----------


## Alex_krsk

Украину снова делят. Как в старые времена. История возвращается на новом витке.

----------


## Hanna

Maybe they should  just split the country then. If it consists of two parts, and the people have different ambitions depending on where they live. 
It's not like Ukraine is a long established independent nation. They could just say "there was a mistake at the dissolution of the USSR, and now we have rectified it".  If the Western part of Ukraine feels held back by the Eastern parts and vice versa, then maybe they just need to go their separate ways?

----------


## Alex_krsk

> Maybe they should just split the country then.

 That happened before. Used to end up with a war.

----------


## xdns

Пользуясь геополитическими амбициями Евросоюза и России, Украина в очередной раз набивала себе цену. По всей видимости, Россия опять смогла предложить самую высокую ставку. Уже говорят о пересмотре газовых контрактов. К сожалению, банкет снова за счёт россиян.

----------


## Alex_krsk

xdns прав 
"Наши оппозиционеры, которые сейчас пытаются вывести людей на Майдан, как обычно врут, говорят, вот как только мы подпишем соглашение об ассоциации, Европейский союз нам даст 20 миллиардов. Простые люди не понимают, что это такое, но видят, что громадная сумма. И мы купаться будем в деньгах. Я говорю этим оппозиционерам, покажите мне хоть один документ, в котором бы зафиксировано это обязательство. Но ведь не вы, а мы ведем переговоры с Европейским союзом. Пока мы получили только такое обещание устное, что в течение 7 лет Украина может рассчитывать на один миллиард евро. Ну, что такое один миллиард евро? Это ничего. Это, так сказать, можно сказать, помощь нищему на паперти", - жалуется глава правительства Украины. 
"Деньги у ЕС есть. А когда речь заходит об Украине, то нам говорят, что вы давайте работайте, вы давайте двигайтесь вперед, но с деньгами не рассчитывайте", - сказал Н.Азаров. 
Читать полностью: Н. Азаров о Евромайдане: Играться не будем :: Политика :: Top.rbc.ru

----------


## RedFox

> Пользуясь геополитическими амбициями Евросоюза и России, Украина в очередной раз набивала себе цену. По всей видимости, Россия опять смогла предложить самую высокую ставку. Уже говорят о пересмотре газовых контрактов. К сожалению, банкет снова за счёт россиян.

 Учитывая, что все эти майданы могут вполне Януковича сожрать, возникает вопрос, *кто именно* там набивает себе цену. Кто реально руководит страной?

----------


## Hanna

RT has the following to say against EU membership for Ukraine (there may be a slight Russian bias here....) :  
1) Ukraine's factories etc are not up to EU standards and cannot pay for modernisation. 
2) Ukrainians would lose subsidised gas and electricity since it's against EU monopoly legislation. 
3) Existing advantageous deals with Russia would probably be lost. 
4) Ukraine's own products / industry would be knocked out by EU products that  are cheaper and possibly perceived as better quality.  
In addition to that: plenty of countries and people in the EU are strongly against further expansion. So it might just be wild goose chase, for nothing. 
I think that if I was Ukrainian, I would (perhaps reluctantly) turn towards Russia for the time being, and treat the EU as more of a long term in the future. But don't have any illusions about the EU. It's not really helped Southern and Eastern Europe; in some cases it's made things worse. 
The two richest countries in Western Europe (Switzerland and Norway) have decided to stay outside - and they are not tempted at all.

----------


## RedFox

> RT has the following to say against EU membership for Ukraine (there may be a slight Russian bias here....) :  
> 1) Ukraine's factories etc are not up to EU standards and cannot pay for modernisation. 
> 2) Ukrainians would lose subsidised gas and electricity since it's against EU monopoly legislation. 
> 3) Existing advantageous deals with Russia would probably be lost. 
> 4) Ukraine's own products / industry would be knocked out by EU products that  are cheaper and possibly perceived as better quality.  
> In addition to that: plenty of countries and people in the EU are strongly against further expansion. So it might just be wild goose chase, for nothing. 
> I think that if I was Ukrainian, I would (perhaps reluctantly) turn towards Russia for the time being, and treat the EU as more of a long term in the future. But don't have any illusions about the EU. It's not really helped Southern and Eastern Europe; in some cases it's made things worse. 
> The two richest countries in Western Europe (Switzerland and Norway) have decided to stay outside - and they are not tempted at all.

 Good point. 
I've talked to some Ukrainian — it seems they don't quite undestand that EU is not a kind of charitable foundation. EU membership can ruin Ukrainian economics.
I am not enthusiastic at all about Customs Union, but it looks as much better alternative.

----------


## 14Russian

> Good point. 
> I've talked to some Ukrainian — it seems they don't quite undestand that EU is not a kind of charitable foundation. EU membership can ruin Ukrainian economics.
> I am not enthusiastic at all about Customs Union, but it looks as much better alternative.

 Hopefully, enough Ukrainians wake up in time and refuse the EU.    Ukraine&#39;s Choice: East Or West? 
Choose neither.

----------


## Hanna

> Hopefully, enough Ukrainians wake up in time and refuse the EU.    Ukraine's Choice: East Or West? 
> Choose neither.

 The article is from Radio Free Europe, for Gosh's sake!  Are you serious?!   
Just what the Ukrainians need, huh? Americans telling them what to do. Because it always ends up so well when the USA interferes on other continents.  
No wonder Radio "Free" Europe doesn't want Ukraine to to be close to the EU or Russia! Go figure!
It wants Ukraine to lick the US butt, while being a super-cheap outsourcing country, in debt to US banks and hosting a few US military bases on the border to Russia.  
Next time, please quote a source that is not financed by an intelligence service.

----------


## 14Russian

> The article is from Radio Free Europe, for Gosh's sake!  Are you serious?!   
> Just what the Ukrainians need, huh? Americans telling them what to do. Because it always ends up so well when the USA interferes on other continents.  
> No wonder Radio "Free" Europe doesn't want Ukraine to to be close to the EU or Russia! Go figure!
> It wants Ukraine to lick the US butt, while being a super-cheap outsourcing country, in debt to US banks and hosting a few US military bases on the border to Russia.  
> Next time, please quote a source that is not financed by an intelligence service.

 I don't care where it's from.   The article is found on other sites and it's to demonstrate how much pressure (and PROPAGANDA)  the Ukrainians are getting to choose the EU.

----------


## maxmixiv

Об украинцах я бы не волновался. Чем бы дело не закончилось, Украина будет в выигрыше. Не на тех напали!  ::  
"Проиграл ли, выиграл ли Карлсон, он всегда сияет, как начищенный пятак"

----------


## 14Russian

These Ukrainians are, sadly, uninformed.   Perhaps, they need to figure things out, maybe watch some youtube videos of 'EUSSR' and ask some Britons what they think of the EU.   At last check, many want to leave.   They even want a referendum giving them the right to leave. 
Norway is not part of the EU and they are not struggling.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBCaB_mRFg 
The Orange Revolution was a farce and so will this be.

----------


## Юрка

По моим ощущениям на Украине в ЕС хотят подонки-нацисты и идиоты-лирики. Украина долго играла с Россией в игру под названием "дайте низкие цены на газ и откройте свой рынок для наших металлургов, так как мы с вами братья-славяне". Путин, будучи идиотом, конечно поддавался на эту уловку, и выполнял их условия. Янукович думал, что и сейчас этот приём сработает, но Путин дал понять, что он перестанет поддерживать экономику Украины, если Украина попытается сидеть на двух стульях.
Лично я может и хотел бы посмотреть на крушение иллюзий украинцев по поводу ЕС, но продвижения НАТО на восток не хотел бы. Россию никто экономически не поддерживал извне, как мы Украину и Белоруссию. Поэтому мы избавились от иллюзий по отношению к Западу. А украинцы (особенно западные) ещё мечтают. Первая их мечта: вечно сидеть на нашей газовой трубе. Вторая мечта: получить с Запада дешёвые товары. Вообще, надо учитывать менталитет украинцев. Для этого достаточно почитать Гоголя (например, "Вечера на хуторе близ Деканьки"). Их национальный приоритет - это дешёвое сало, горилка, возможность с важным видом называть себя панами. Насчёт горилки я слышал, что на Украине разрешено самогоноварение (самодельное изготовление водки). Насчёт сала - это газовая труба и ЕС. Насчёт панов - это нежелание дружить с Россией (так как друзья равны, а панство равенства не подразумевает).

----------


## Antonio1986

As a Cypriot my simple advice to Ukraine is: Stay away from European Union. 
Just form a Trade Union with EU where products, services, labor and capital will move freely. 
Nothing more, nothing less.

----------


## Lampada

> По моим ощущениям на Украине в ЕС хотят подонки-нацисты и идиоты-лирики. Украина долго играла с Россией в игру под названием "дайте низкие цены на газ и откройте свой рынок для наших металлургов, так как мы с вами братья-славяне". Путин, будучи идиотом, конечно поддавался на эту уловку, и выполнял их условия. Янукович думал, что и сейчас этот приём сработает, но Путин дал понять, что он перестанет поддерживать экономику Украины, если Украина попытается сидеть на двух стульях.
> Лично я может и хотел бы посмотреть на крушение иллюзий украинцев по поводу ЕС, но продвижения НАТО на восток не хотел бы. Россию никто экономически не поддерживал извне, как мы Украину и Белоруссию. Поэтому мы избавились от иллюзий по отношению к Западу. А украинцы (особенно западные) ещё мечтают. Первая их мечта: вечно сидеть на нашей газовой трубе. Вторая мечта: получить с Запада дешёвые товары. Вообще, надо учитывать менталитет украинцев. Для этого достаточно почитать Гоголя (например, "Вечера на хуторе близ Деканьки"). Их национальный приоритет - это дешёвое сало, горилка, возможность с важным видом называть себя панами. Насчёт горилки я слышал, что на Украине разрешено самогоноварение (самодельное изготовление водки). Насчёт сала - это газовая труба и ЕС. Насчёт панов - это нежелание дружить с Россией (так как друзья равны, а панство равенства не подразумевает).

 По-моему, такое называлось великодержавным шовинизмом.

----------


## Юрка

> As a Cypriot my simple advice to Ukraine is: Stay away from European Union. 
> Just form a Trade Union with EU where products, services, labor and capital will move freely.Nothing more, nothing less.

 Так им и предлагают открыть границу для товаров из ЕС (а не членство в ЕС). По этой причине Россия и закроет границу с Украиной (чтобы товары из ЕС не хлынули к нам). Это Украина и называет давлением со стороны России.  

> По-моему, такое называлось великодержавным шовинизмом.

 Шовинизм у меня или у Гоголя?  ::

----------


## Hanna

> Norway is not part of the EU and they are not struggling.   .

 As a Scandinavian you know perfectly well that they won jackpot in the oil lottery, and if it wasn't for that, they'd be begging to join the EU. Their only other natural resource is fish, and that's where their previous expertise laid. When the oil runs out, they will join the EU or whatever has replaced it.   

> ask some Britons what they think of the EU.   At last check, many want  to leave.   They even want a referendum giving them the right to leave.

 That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.  
The UK is used to running things, but is only the 3rd biggest country/economy in the EU, and has to compromise and work with French, Germans and others as equal. Having to compromise with Germans and others is just a bit of a blow to national self esteem.  
Another reason is that Britain uses different measurements, drives on the other side of the road, has different electronic plugs and some other aspects that don't gel well with the EU - and that the EU has tried to change, to the fury of many here. Again it's minor stuff. Educated people in the UK know that regardless of their feelings about it, it's not feasible to leave the EU at this point and nobody has any illusions that it will happen any time soon. Hell will freeze over before there is a refendum - or they will announce a referendum when they are already certain what the outcome will be. 
The situation with Cyprus may be different - I'm not up to scratch, likewise a few countries in Eastern Europe who got a more favourable assesment than they perhaps should have, for political/ideological reasons. And a few countries in Southern Europe who cooked the books together with Goldman Sachs, to qualify for the Euro, when really they did not meet the requirements.  *As for Ukraine:* If it completely turned its back on Russia (and sorted out a few other things) I am sure things would be back on track. I visited both Ukraine and Romania in 2011 and my impression was that Ukraine was in a better shape economically than Romania which qualified for the EU. Unlike Turkey, Ukraine is fully located in Europe and has a Christian heritage (some EU countries are against Turkey for these two reasons). Ukraine's human rights may not be world class but it's probably better than Turkey and no worse than Romania.  
If not a full membership, then certainly free trade and a customs union in a longer perspective.  
Latvia is another example of an ex USSR country that qualified and completely turned its back on Russia. 
Perhaps a fraction better off than Ukraine, from the point of view of a visitor, but not much. 
Social benefits in Latvia consists of a sack of oatmeal for food and a couple of hundred dollars to cover rent according to a man I spoke with. He was a perfectly competent techie, but unable to get a job and support himself were he lived.  
I would be extremely surprised, if Latvia's factories are EU standard. Parts of the country is literally falling to pieces because they haven't done maintenance in 25 years. It was quite shocking to see. People living in absolute squalor next to a site where the EU is spending big bucks on renovating some old fortress that few would care about and that can surely wait a few more years.   
If Ukraine REALLY wanted to, it could become a partner, or a member - I think. 
Whether it would help the economy is another story. Like Antonio said - it was a recipe for disaster, for some, and it leaves the door open for exploitation as people in Romania are saying. 
Plus, it would be at the expense of relations with Russia. 
I don't care either way; I just want the people in Ukraine to have more hope for a good future. I think they need to choose East or West and the sooner they do it, the better.

----------


## 14Russian

> As a Scandinavian you know perfectly well that they won jackpot in the oil lottery, and if it wasn't for that, they'd be begging to join the EU. Their only other natural resource is fish, and that's where their previous expertise laid. When the oil runs out, they will join the EU or whatever has replaced it. 
> That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.  
> The UK is used to running things, but is only the 3rd biggest country/economy in the EU, and has to compromise and work with French, Germans and others as equal. Having to compromise with Germans and others is just a bit of a blow to national self esteem.  
> Another reason is that Britain uses different measurements, drives on the other side of the road, has different electronic plugs and some other aspects that don't gel well with the EU - and that the EU has tried to change, to the fury of many here. Again it's minor stuff. Educated people in the UK know that regardless of their feelings about it, it's not feasible to leave the EU at this point and nobody has any illusions that it will happen any time soon. Hell will freeze over before there is a refendum - or they will announce a referendum when they are already certain what the outcome will be. 
> The situation with Cyprus may be different - I'm not up to scratch, likewise a few countries in Eastern Europe who got a more favourable assesment than they perhaps should have, for political/ideological reasons. And a few countries in Southern Europe who cooked the books together with Goldman Sachs, to qualify for the Euro, when really they did not meet the requirements.  *As for Ukraine:* If it completely turned its back on Russia (and sorted out a few other things) I am sure things would be back on track. I visited both Ukraine and Romania in 2011 and my impression was that Ukraine was in a better shape economically than Romania which qualified for the EU. Unlike Turkey, Ukraine is fully located in Europe and has a Christian heritage (some EU countries are against Turkey for these two reasons). Ukraine's human rights may not be world class but it's probably better than Turkey and no worse than Romania.  
> If not a full membership, then certainly free trade and a customs union in a longer perspective.  
> Latvia is another example of an ex USSR country that qualified and completely turned its back on Russia. 
> Perhaps a fraction better off than Ukraine, from the point of view of a visitor, but not much. 
> Social benefits in Latvia consists of a sack of oatmeal for food and a couple of hundred dollars to cover rent according to a man I spoke with. He was a perfectly competent techie, but unable to get a job and support himself were he lived.  
> ...

 LOL!   Norway would be begging while several countries in the EU are near bankruptcy and would be already under if not for being enslaved by IMF loans/bankers?!?   Please... 
'That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.'
LOL!   That's ridiculous.   They know the EU is a sham and they see what happens with other countries which become slaves to the EU system.   Check EUSSR videos and notice how the overwhelming pattern is that those in charge are not elected but appointed.   The freedoms are reduced or eliminated and 'free trade?'   LOL!   Tell that to every country not named Germany. 
(Deleted. L.)

----------


## Basil77

A couple of pictures to the topic  :: :

----------


## Hanna

I think those pictures says it all.  
Maybe another picture is needed, in which Ukraine can't unite on this, splits up and each side joins the group they prefer. Tragic, but it's happened to countries before. 
And perhaps another picture, where Ukraine finds some new friends altogether!? 
I think the truth of the matter is that you have to be part of an economic block these days, and have some solid allies. Wish it weren't so, but it is. Particularly for a "new" country like Ukraine.  
What about Belarus? 
We know that the EU absolutely HATES Lukashenko and is convinced that Belarus is completely undemocratic (I don't think that's necessarily true; there are different types of freedom - anyway it's the Belarussians problem, not the EUs.) 
But Belarus is also not on the best of terms with Russia - so maybe Ukraine can also look at how to work closer with Belarus? Not exactly a substitute for the EU or Russia, but at least a "friendly neighbour".  
Kazakhstan, Turkey, Iran are not too far away and not closely aligned to either bloc and might also be open for co-operation. 
Not sure what Ukraine has to offer but no doubt, something.
(just thinking, if there is a third way for Ukraine, since the Russia-Ukraine-EU unhappy triangle drama has been going on for a decade now.

----------


## Юрка

> I think those pictures says it all.

 По-моему, карикатуры говорят не всё. На Украине официальная пропаганда говорит следующее: "мы всей душой хотим в ЕС, а Россия грубо не пускает нас туда, используя экономические рычаги". На картинках украинец не знает, что выбрать, а в реальности голова украинца уже в ЕС, а грубая реальность не пускает его туда.
Получается шизофрения: мечты расходятся с реальностью. И эту шизофрению поддерживает официальная пропаганда Украины. 
Кажется Стросс Кан сказал, что "глобализация - это война". Когда-то немцы начинали войну ради того, чтобы другие европейцы работали за копейки на их заводах. Теперь глобализация позволяет достигать тот же эффект без войны. Треть населения Литвы уехало из страны ради поиска работы. То же ждёт и Украину.

----------


## eisenherz

> "... Когда-то немцы начинали войну ради того, чтобы другие европейцы работали за копейки на их заводах ...

 Now Germany is to blame for the poor wages in other countries?? You mean that one country with the hard-working, efficient and savings-orientated people and a very disciplined fiscal policy?

----------


## DrBaldhead

> Now Germany is to blame for the poor wages in other countries?? You mean that one country with the hard-working, efficient and savings-orientated people and a very disciplined fiscal policy?

 You mean those who made millions of working hands all over Europe and beyond unneeded and worthless? Don't take it personally, the corporations are to blame in any case. Yet I admit that it would be dumb to blame efficient people for being too efficient.

----------


## eisenherz

> You mean those who made millions of working hands all over Europe and beyond unneeded and worthless? Don't take it personally, the corporations are to blame in any case. Yet I admit that it would be dumb to blame efficient people for being too efficient.

 Hi, i do not think it is fair of me to debate this here as it would sidetrack from the Ukraine-topic of the thread; however think of the many German firms (BMW, VW, Bosch, ZF etc) that at least provide for some employment with relatively decent salary in many countries around the world (from Slovakia to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico and many countries inbetween, that would be the poorer if it was not for them.

----------


## Hanna

> Hi, i do not think it is fair of me to debate this here as it would sidetrack from the Ukraine-topic of the thread; however think of the many German firms (BMW, VW, Bosch, ZF etc) that at least provide for some employment with relatively decent salary in many countries around the world (from Slovakia to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico and many countries inbetween, that would be the poorer if it was not for them.

 Yes, it's the sunnier side of globalisation, and there are many very good sides to Germany and Germans. But the whole debate of who are the good guys/bad guys in the EU and who's ripping off, cheating or exploiting whom is a separate topic. It's not about the Germans per se. If I was you btw, I'd worry more about why there are still foreign army bases in my country....  
Another side of this debate is; exactly what's "poor" or "rich?" Is it job security, work-life balance, health, roof over your head and food on the table... 
Or is it having a BMW, designer clothes, credit card debts, TV games and a huge mortgage but no job security, and ruining your health from stress and poor habits. 
People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.  
But all this is another topic, and point taken, that you don't appreciate your country (?) being slandered. 
I understand there is A LOT of resentment against Germany in Southern Europe and Eastern Europe. 
Spent an hour waiting on a train in Romania, listening to a guy who spoke really good English explain how the EU had done absolutely nothing to Romania, was treating them like second class citizens and idiots according to him, and how he'd even started to re-think his previous rejection of socialism in his country. Had never expected to hear anything like that - and this person is probably not alone in is views. Every other interview from Greece or Spain contains a snidy or angry comment about Germany.  
It's very visible in Eastern Europe, it's full of Lidl, T Mobile, Big EU banks, McDonalds and lots of well known Western European or American brands for everything under the sun. I am not seeing THEIR brands, like you do in other parts of the world. In order to find a country that's not littered with ads for EU/US brands and trying to use their own products and services, you have to go to Belarus.

----------


## Eric C.

> People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.

 More miserable than those in Spain or Greece? o_O   

> In order to find a country that's not littered with ads for EU/US brands and trying to use their own products and services, you have to go to Belarus.

 Would you mind a few minor corrections here? --> In order to find a country where the government is trying to retain the remnants of the economy that it has gambled away in the last two decades by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for that -- you have to go to Belarus.

----------


## Hanna

> by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for that -- you have to go to Belarus.

  

> by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores  and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets  ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for  that -- you have to go to Belarus.

 1) I'd rather call the price level of their local stuff "ridiculously  low". But the economic policies of Belarus is another story, and best  explained by somebody from there, I think.  
2) Why don't you leave it to the Belarussians to condemn their  government, or not. They don't need you to speak for them. I was just  stating an objective truth; compared with other countries in the region,  they have less EU/global brands, and ads for it. However, if you want  it, you can find designer/brand stuff at roughly EU prices, in Minsk,  and a couple of McDonald's. Personally, I'd rather live in Belarus than  Romania after seeing both. *Despite their EU membership, Romania is in a much worse state.* 
As for contentment with the government and democracy, I think you'd have  to look pretty hard to find anyone in Romania who thinks their government is doing  a good job, or that "democracy" there is a success. And that's 25 years  after they hung Ceusescu from a lamp post. The Germans re-built their  entire country from rubble in less than that time - both east and west.  So clearly something is a little bit off in Romania.  
My point is that the Ukrainians should just bear in mind that although  EU is a great peace project, it's not a ticket to economic success, as  the Greek, Spaniards, Romanians, Latvians and others can confirm.

----------


## Eric C.

> I'd rather call the price level of their local stuff "ridiculously low"

 If you were reading that post properly, you would've probably noticed that I wasn't talking about their "local stuff", but actually the "imported stuff" their local producers feel jealous about and thus cause the enormously big custom rates for, making it more expensive than anywhere near that country.   

> Personally, I'd rather live in Belarus than Romania after seeing both.

 The truth is, you don't wanna live in either one. Unless you externally bring some funds with you there, your survival will be nearly impossible.

----------


## Hanna

The "expert" has spoken.

----------


## Alex_krsk

> People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.

 I don't know anout the "studies, followed by the UK" (here might come a "британские ученые" joke) but from my own experience german people are not happy with each other as I see the way they treat each other. In Germany there's worst service i ever dealt with.  
What about Belarus. I'm not a biggest Lukashenko's fan, but i must admit that there are huge recent changes in belorussian economy.   

> In order to find a country where the government is trying to retain the remnants of the economy that it has gambled away in the last two decades

 Information in western media on Russia or belorussia these days are like 5-7 years late.

----------


## Eric C.

> What about Belarus. I'm not a biggest Lukashenko's fan, but i must admit that there are huge recent changes in belorussian economy. Information in western media on Russia or belorussia these days are like 5-7 years late.

  

> Shortly before the 2010 presidential election average salaries in Belarus were increased by the government to $500 per month. It is believed to be one of the main reasons for the crisis in 2011.[14] Other reasons for the crisis were strong governmental control in the economy, a discount rate lower than inflation and the budget deficit.[15] 
> In January 2011 Belarusians started to convert their savings from belarusian rubles to dollars and euro. The situation was influenced by rumors of possible devaluation of the ruble.[16] Exchange rates in Belarus are centralized by the government-controlled National Bank of Belarus.[17] The National Bank was forced to spend $1 billion of the foreign reserves to balance the supply and demand of currency[16] On March 22 it stopped the support to banks.[16] The National Bank also didn't change the exchange rate significantly (3,000 BYR per dollar on January 1 and 3,045 BYR on April 1), so the increased demand of dollars and euro exhausted cash reserves of banks. In April and May 2011 many people had to wait for several days in queues to buy dollars in the exchange booths.[17] In April Belarusian banks were given informal permission of government to increase the exchange rate to 4,000 BYR for 1 dollar (later 4,500 BYR), but few people started to sell dollars and euro. On May 24 the ruble was officially devaluated by 36% (from 3,155 to 4,931 BYR per 1 dollar).[18] But the shortage of the currency retained. As a result of the shortage, a black market of currency was created. In July 2011 the black market exchange rate was nearly 6,350 BYR per 1 dollar,[19] in August it reached 9,000 BYR per 1 dollar.[20] 
> In September 2011 National Bank of Belarus introduced a free exchange market session to determine a market value of the ruble.[21] From November 2011 to March 2012 the exchange rate was 8,000—8,150 BYR per 1 dollar, but it started to rise in April 2012 and reached 8,360 BYR per 1 dollar on 10 July 2012.[22]

 Economy of Belarus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
That's the "economy" the country has... Do I have to remind that for now, that rate is well over 9,300 BYR for $1 ? So, what were you saying about changes and outdated information? =))

----------


## Alex_krsk

> Economy of Belarus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
> That's the "economy" the country has... Do I have to remind that for now, that rate is well over 9,300 BYR for $1 ? So, what were you saying about changes and outdated information? =))

 By economy (maybe i used wrong word)  I didn't mean currency exchange market and and other monetary indeces. I talk to people who live there.

----------


## Eric C.

> By economy (maybe i used wrong word)  I didn't mean currency exchange market and and other monetary indeces. I talk to people who live there.

 The funny thing is, so do I. =)) So, what do those people you talk to tell you?

----------


## Alex_krsk

> The funny thing is, so do I. =)) So, what do those people you talk to tell you?

 People who used to go to work to Russia now have jobs in their country.

----------


## Eric C.

> People who used to go to work to Russia now have jobs in their country.

 So they stopped going to Russia? If so, why? How are their wages compared to what they had in Russia?

----------


## Alex_krsk

> So they stopped going to Russia? If so, why? How are their wages compared to what they had in Russia?

 It's hardly so that they make  nearly same mone. But at least they can afford it to stay at home.

----------


## Hanna

Like I said, I spent quite a while there, and reported a bit about it here at MR. _(before the trolling started properly, and you could still have a interesting exchanges on this site) _ 
The bigger cities in Belarus are renovated, clean, free of graffiti and very few ads. 
Belarus is in a better state of repair/renovation than Ukraine.  
 It's true that their salaries are lower, but everything you need there, for everyday life, is subsidised. They are not paying market prices for a lot of things. The rents are extremely low, public transport is next to free, their jobs pay for room and board during their holidays etc, Healthcare, university etc free. So for everyday expenses they need less money. And everybody has a job, essentially.  
I don't think the salaries there are lower than in places like Romania or Latvia. I'm pretty sure they are better off than Romanians and a lot of people in Ukraine. However, I think retired people on state pensions can just about make it through the month. That's not unique for Belarus though, and I understand that the older generation supports Lukashenko almost universally, regardless.  
The problem kicks in if they want a new car, a lot of petrol, expensive electronic gadgets, designer clothes or a foreign holiday. Imported "luxury" stuff.  I think there's also a housing shortage, not massive, but affecting young people.   
I asked lots of people there what they thought about the current gov't because I was genuinely interested. About 70% were ok with it. Although they had some criticism they felt "better-the-devil-you-know" about Lukashenko. About 30% really hated Lukashenko, out of the people I spoke with. Those were younger people, in Minsk, essentially. One woman I spoke quite a lot with, in Minsk, said that she thought that Lukashenko was mentally ill, lol. However, she was upper middle class or whatever, in Belarus, and from what I could tell, her lifestyle was similar to my own, apart from she was annoyed that she couldn't afford chic holidays abroad. I respect everyone's view who lives ther and what goes on in Belarus is not my business who runs Belarus. But it p-sses me off that there are so many blatant lies about this country in European media.

----------


## Eric C.

> The problem kicks in if they want a new car, a lot of petrol, expensive electronic gadgets, designer clothes or a foreign holiday. Imported "luxury" stuff. I think there's also a housing shortage, not massive, but affecting young people.

 That kind of problem has been created artificially by their government, which I've been telling you several times now, but with no luck getting it through your pink colored glasses. The problem is that cars, "expensive electronic gadgets", designer clothes cost way more there than those in EU or in the U.S.! That's all because of the insane custom fees, tax rates for those resellers that sell them etc. Did you know that you cannot buy a car in that country for less than $5,000? (I mean a car that rides, of course) No matter how old it is, because the older a car is, the bigger custom fees they apply for it. Then, an iPad Air that you can buy for just $929 in the U.S. (128 GB, Wi-Fi + LTE) will cost you over $1,500 in that country!!! That's insane, especially considering how their salaries compare with the ones in the U.S.! A pair of Lewis jeans that you can get for $50-100 at any shopping mall in NY, will be priced at several hundred bucks in that country! Again, what a rich prosperous nation it must be to afford things at such prices... No wonder lots of people there hate that system and count days till its collapse.

----------


## Lakme

> People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.

  

> In Germany there's worst service i ever dealt with.

 Very interesting, but that's not true.

----------


## Hanna

> That kind of problem has been created artificially by their government, which I've been telling you several times now, but with no luck getting it through your pink colored glasses. The problem is that cars, "expensive electronic gadgets", designer clothes cost way more there than those in EU or in the U.S.! That's all because of the insane custom fees, tax rates for those resellers that sell them etc. Did you know that you cannot buy a car in that country for less than $5,000? (I mean a car that rides, of course) No matter how old it is, because the older a car is, the bigger custom fees they apply for it. Then, an iPad Air that you can buy for just $929 in the U.S. (128 GB, Wi-Fi + LTE) will cost you over $1,500 in that country!!! That's insane, especially considering how their salaries compare with the ones in the U.S.! A pair of Lewis jeans that you can get for $50-100 at any shopping mall in NY, will be priced at several hundred bucks in that country! Again, what a rich prosperous nation it must be to afford things at such prices... No wonder lots of people there hate that system and count days till its collapse.

 Yes, because _NOBODY_ can be_ TRULY_ happy and fulfilled in life until they have a pair of Levis, an iPad Air, purchased for the equivalent US retail price!  
Get that wrong and you are doomed to eternal misery.... **   Thanks for clarifying that, "Eric". *
 Alles klar!   * And as for your info on Belarus; the last time this topic came up, you claimed that Belarussians were not allowed to leave the country, until somebody corrected you.  So it's nice that you have read up a bit.  
If you want to convince anyone with your iPad example, please post links to a Belarussian,  Russian, German and American vendor selling iPad Airs. We are all aware that electronics and clothes are more expensive in Europe for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons and there is nothing sinister about that.

----------


## Eric C.

> If you want to convince anyone with your iPad example, please post links to a Belarussian, Russian, German and American vendor selling iPad Airs. We are all aware that electronics and clothes are more expensive in Europe for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons and there is nothing sinister about that.

 iPad Air - Buy iPad Air with Free Shipping - Apple Store (U.S.)       <--- The U.S. Apple Stores' offer (the top one costs $929) iPad       <--- The German Apple Stores' offer (the top one costs 869 Euros, or around $1173) iPad Air – Купите iPad Air с бесплатной доставкой - Apple Store (        <--- The Russian Apple Stores' offer (you'll have to do some math there, the top one costs 36,990 Russian rubles, that will be around $1121) 
Yes, in Russia you can get it for a lower price than in Germany, but I wasn't talking about Russia, was I? =)) 
Now, the most interesting part. There are no official Apple Stores in Belarus at all!!! What I've been able to find is some kind of "premium reseller store", but it's doubtful it even has that status. Anyway, here's the webpage:  iPad Air купить в Минске i-Store 
Don't get shocked with what you see at the first glance, because their currency rates can actually shock anyone! So, that nice price tag of "12,299,000" in their local currency becomes $1317, by their current rates. More expensive than that in Russia, more expensive than that in Germany. Yes, my information about the $1,500 price was a bit outdated, but you've got the idea. =))

----------


## Eric C.

> Thanks for clarifying that, "Eric".

 And by the way, what kind of mean person does it take to be trying to insult someone by putting their name in quotes all the time?...

----------


## Lampada

:: Лично я смотреть боюсь  (нервы слабоваты на насилие), но всё равно действия властей осуждаю.      http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2013/11/30/7003663/           http://storify.com/alionamelnyk/poli...-ukraine-beate

----------


## Alex_krsk

> Лично я смотреть боюсь  (нервы слабоваты на насилие), но всё равно действия властей осуждаю.

 Да уж. Беркут это вам не пацифисты из российской полиции. 
Особого насилия, кстати, в видео нет. 
тут насилия больше

----------


## Alex_krsk



----------


## DrBaldhead

I presume the joy from the discussion about whether Ukraine should or shouldn't get associated with the EU won't be full without this humble 900 PAGES (!) document about the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement.

----------


## 14Russian

> I presume the joy from the discussion about whether Ukraine should or shouldn't get associated with the EU won't be full without this humble 900 PAGES (!) document about the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement.

 Are there any Ukrainians reading this that can explain why any Ukrainians support joining the EU (calling it an 'Association?!?')?   Can you not read up on how the system works, how the ones who run the EU are not elected, but appointed?   How it's so ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, that many call it the EUSSR now?   Do they not know about how many EU countries were not helped but crippled economically?!?   Don't they know about Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy et al.?    
It seems that there's just a lot of investment and funding by special interest groups that really want this to happen.   Even Merkel voiced her displeasure to Yanukovich recently, saying she 'expected more.'   That's like saying, what's taking so long?!?   What a joke!  
It would be interesting to hear from Ukrainians who read this thread to know what is behind their reasoning and why so many want to desperately join this banking cabal.   Do they think their lives will improve?   Is it to get further away from Russian influence?   They would be moving from one problematic situation to a worse one, imho. 
Edit:  I bet no one will read that document.   I guess they try to make it as long and convoluted as possible.

----------


## Alex_krsk

Live from Kiev

----------


## Юрка

> Лично я смотреть боюсь (нервы слабоваты на насилие), но всё равно действия властей осуждаю.

 1. Звучит как "не читал, но осуждаю" из анекдота про Солженицина.
2. В драке два участника. Оба агрессивны, оба вооружены. Почему вы осуждаете одного из них, а не обоих или никого из них?

----------


## Lampada

> 1. Звучит как "не читал, но осуждаю" из анекдота про Солженицина.
> 2. В драке два участника. Оба агрессивны, оба вооружены. Почему вы осуждаете одного из них, а не обоих или никого из них?

 Потому что имею полное право на своё мнение и на свой выбор. Так же, как и все.  А почему вы меня спрашиваете?  Я понимаю, что имеете право. Просто интересно.

----------


## Lampada

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater  
Из комментариев: _ Саня, расшариваем._  ( не сразу поняла, что это).

----------


## Basil77

> 1. Звучит как "не читал, но осуждаю" из анекдота про Солженицина.

 Это было сказано про Пастернака:  

> _Не читал, но осуждаю!_ — по разным сведениям, часть фразы:  прозвучавшей из уст А. В. Софронова в 1958 году на заседании правления Союза писателей СССР при рассмотрении дела Бориса Пастернака, которого обвиняли в публикации за границей «антисоветского» романа «Доктор Живаго»[1];происходящей от заметки экскаваторщика Филиппа Васильцева «Лягушка в болоте», опубликованной в «Литературной газете»  (№ 131 от 01.11.5 по тому же самому поводу: «Газеты пишут про  какого-то Пастернака. Будто бы есть такой писатель. Ничего о нём я до  сих пор не знал, никогда его книг не читал… это не писатель, а  белогвардеец… я не читал Пастернака. Но знаю: в литературе без лягушек  лучше».
>  Неопределённость с первоисточником, возможно, объясняется тем, что  копии писем в «Литературную газету» были также направлены в Союз  писателей и, вероятно, оглашены на заседании правления.[_источник не указан 122 дня_]
>  Фразу используют, чтобы указать на невозможность конструктивной критики со стороны оппонента, не знакомого лично с предметом обсуждения.

----------


## Юрка

> Потому что имею полное право на своё мнение и на свой выбор. Так же, как и все. А почему вы меня спрашиваете? Я понимаю, что имеете право. Просто интересно.

 Мне тоже просто интересно. Деруться Вася с Ваней. Пострадали оба. Следствия и суда не было. И тут срабатывает какой-то психологический механизм, заставляющий заявить: "Ваню осуждаю".  

> Это было сказано про Пастернака:

 Возможно. Но:
1. Фраза стала крылатой. Мне кажется, что так могли говорить многократно и по разным поводам. Ведь хотелось и осудить, и уйти от ответственности за чтение неправильной литературы.
2. Иногда авторство приписывают кому-то, хотя фраза существовала задолго до. Например, фразу "хотели как лучше, а получилось как всегда" приписывают Черномырдину, хотя она существовала до него.

----------


## Eric C.

> 2. В драке два участника. Оба агрессивны, оба вооружены. Почему вы осуждаете одного из них, а не обоих или никого из них?

 Because the orders of the riot police are not to put up a fight, but to avoid a fight by any means with minimum injuries for the crowd. That's what they're paid for.

----------


## 14Russian

Ukraine's Yanukovich says will do his best to move towards EU Ukraine's Yanukovich says will do his best to move towards EU | Reuters

----------


## Lampada

> Мне тоже просто интересно. Деруться Вася с Ваней. Пострадали оба. Следствия и суда не было. И тут срабатывает какой-то психологический механизм, заставляющий заявить: "Ваню осуждаю".
> ...

 Здесь глагол _драться_ должен быть без мягкого знака. Отвечает на вопрос Что они делают? _Они дерутся._ 
Кстати, на мой вопрос вы не ответили. Это у вас обычное явление:  вопросом на вопрос.
Но я вам отвечу.  То, что происходит на Украине меня касается прямым образом: Я с Украины плюс там живёт мой любимый племянник и  есть много друзей.

----------


## Lampada

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater       _"Larisa Rabchenyuk 7 годин(-и) тому через кишеньковий пристрій  Вот так сейчас выглядит моя мама. 54-летняя 'провокатор', которая на ул.Институтской получила дубинкой просто в лицо. ЗЧМТ, сотрясение головного мозга, перелом носа со смещением осколков, гематома, ушиб мягких тканей лица."_

----------


## DrBaldhead

> Вот так сейчас выглядит моя мама. 54-летняя 'провокатор', которая на ул.Институтской получила дубинкой просто в лицо. ЗЧМТ, сотрясение головного мозга, перелом носа со смещением осколков, гематома, ушиб мягких тканей лица.

 Was this woman a provoker? Sadly, we might never know. Let's hope she wasn't.
Anyway, what where they thinking? First you scream at the police, then you threat them with a stolen bulldozer, after that you try to beat them with chains and sticks, kick them, throw bricks at them, try to blind their helmets with a spray can and hand-made smoke bombs. Ah yes, Molotov cocktail, of course. And after all that suddenly, by God, suddenly that freaking police fights back and moreover, they are armed with smoke and gas grenades which are much more effective anyway.
Not enough fun yet? No problem, grab more stones, even if you're a subtle girl and then have even more fun!
Notice that the guys on the left don't even have shields? You might ask, why? Because, these are actually not "Berkut" but simple "green" soldiers, who weren't equipped with shields, because there was a chance that they might lose it to the crowd. The mighty "Berkut" seemed to be throwing grenades from behind their backs.
I won't say that this particular woman was a provoker, I don't know, but I know this: the bastards who willingly led unarmed civilans under the police grenades (and who conviniently came to the scene armed) deserve the fate much worse than mentioned above. 
P.S.: experienced protesters recommend to wear an extra protective armor.

----------


## Юрка

> Здесь глагол _драться_ должен быть без мягкого знака. Отвечает на вопрос Что они делают? _Они дерутся._ 
> Кстати, на мой вопрос вы не ответили. Это у вас обычное явление: вопросом на вопрос.
> Но я вам отвечу. То, что происходит на Украине меня касается прямым образом: Я с Украины плюс там живёт мой любимый племянник и есть много друзей.

 Вы не ответили на мой вопрос (почему осуждаете Ваню, а не Васю), но ответили на вопрос, который я не задавал (почему вы интересуетесь событиями на Украине). Ошибка чисто логическая. Дело в том, что вопросы нужны не только для проверки необходимости мягкого знака, но и для получения ответов. 
А на ваш вопрос я ответил. Вы спросили почему я задаю вам вопрос. Я ответил, что из любопытства.  

> _Вот так сейчас выглядит моя мама. 54-летняя 'провокатор'_

 В Сирии нам тоже показывали как бы жертв режима, а потом оказалось, что тех детишек украли и убили сами фотографы.
И ещё вопрос: что мама (если она мама) делала на улице рядом с отрядом полиции?
И не стыдно ребёнку использовать фотографию мамы в политических целях? Или политика превыше всего? У меня тоже есть фотографии моей мамы после операции. Но я не использую их, чтобы обвинить врачей и режим в целом (типа, смотрите, что сделали эти гады). Хотя, вы бы упали в обморок, если бы увидели эти фотки. Что-то меня останавливает от публикации. Кстати, слово хам стало нарицательным после этой ветхозаветной истории с подглядыванием за родителями.

----------


## Alex_krsk

Вот очень качественный и не предвзятый материал zyalt: Штурм Администрации президента, Киев

----------


## Юрка

> Вот очень качественный и не предвзятый материал zyalt: Штурм Администрации президента, Киев

 В общем всё очевидно: штурмуют штурмовики, боевики, нацисты, подонки, дураки. А народ работает.

----------


## Basil77

> Вот очень качественный и не предвзятый материал zyalt: Штурм Администрации президента, Киев

 Да уж. Как после такого у кого-то язык поворачивается полицию обвинять в "жёстком" разгоне этих уродов. Любимый западом дерьмократ Ельцин в 93м в Москве приказал расстреливать протестующих против грабительской приватизации из снайперских винтовок и западные СМИ его хором поддерживали, он же защищал "идеалы свободы и демократии". А тут, небось, опять про "кровавый режим" выть начнут, если уже не начали.

----------


## Eric C.

> И ещё вопрос: что мама (если она мама) делала на улице рядом с отрядом полиции?

 "Когда свита барина идет по городу, челядь должна кланяться и убираться восвояси"... ?

----------


## RedFox

> не стыдно?

 А вооруженному дуболому в броне сломать нос пожилой женщине не стыдно? Всё нормально с психическим состоянием Беркутов и тех, кто отдаёт им приказы?   

> должностная инструкции "Беркута" по поводу применения "спецсредств" ( Про затвердження Правил застосування спеціальних засобів при... | від 27.02.1991 № 49 ). нарушено все - 
>     - Забороняється нанесення ударів кийком: по голові, шиї, ключичній ділянці, животу, статевих органах, сонячному сплетінні, нирках, копчику (а згідно коментарів постраждалих, саме по цих ділянках вони найбільше отримували ударів).
>      - Світлошумові засоби відволікаючої дії (зокрема, світлошумова граната "Заря", світлошумовий пристрій "Пламя") застосовуються на відстані не ближче двох метрів від людини (а багато хто отримав опіки й поранення від таких гранат).
>      - При застосуванні сльозоточивих речовин забороняється прицільна стрільба по правопорушниках, розкидання і відстрілювання гранат у натовп, повторне застосування їх у межах зони ураження в період дії цих речовин..."

----------


## Юрка

> Ельцин в 93м в Москве приказал расстреливать протестующих из снайперских винтовок

 Разве не сторонникам Хазбулатова раздавали оружие? Макашов был на их стороне. То есть подонки были за парламент. А потом на стенах чердаков эти снайперы писали "я убил пять человек и очень рад этому". Профессионал бы такую фигню не написал бы. Там у людей с головой в порядке. Такое мог написать только маргинал, недоделок, психопат, ненавидящий людей.  

> сломать нос пожилой женщине

 Наверное эту женщину ещё ни разу не называли пожилой. Такой для неё сюрприз: и нос сломали, и старухой обозвали. 
На вид она довольно молода. Но и старуха вполне может ткнуть авоськой милиционера в морду. В толпе люди ведут себя неадекватно, как агрессивные обезьяны. А женщины особенно беспощадны в драке. Так что, если она была в толпе, то была способна на всё.  

> "Когда свита барина идет по городу, челядь должна кланяться и убираться восвояси"... ?

 Вам известно выражение "русский бунт, бессмысленный и беспощадный"? В таком бунте могут участвовать и женщины, если ангрессия у них в крови. 
Что касается вашего вопроса: когда барин прячется у себя в доме, челядь должна бежать на штурм. Потому что это редкий шанс 
чтобы отвести душу и безнаказанно замочить кого-нибудь. 
Мы наблюдаем не что иное, как государственный переворот.

----------


## Alex_krsk

> "Когда свита барина идет по городу, челядь должна кланяться и убираться восвояси"... ?

 "Лес рубят - щепки летят"

----------


## Basil77

> Разве не сторонникам Хазбулатова раздавали оружие? Макашов был на их стороне. То есть подонки были за парламент. А потом на стенах чердаков эти снайперы писали "я убил пять человек и очень рад этому". Профессионал бы такую фигню не написал бы. Там у людей с головой в порядке. Такое мог написать только маргинал, недоделок, психопат, ненавидящий людей.

 Там было много всяких версий. Включая и ту, что первые убитые были застрелены с крыши американского посольства, которое находится прямо напротив "Белого дома". Вроде бы баллистическая экспертиза это доказала, но потом этот факт быстро замяли и материалы этой экспертизы куда-то из дела изчезли. Я могу сказать одно: я там был лично (решил, дурак, поглазеть из любопытства) и боевое оружие на поражение применялось с обеих сторон. Я своими глазами видел, как солдаты садили трассерами по окнам парламента, не говоря уже про стельбу из орудий танков.

----------


## Юрка

> первые убитые были застрелены с крыши американского посольства

 Очень мило.  

> Я своими глазами видел, как солдаты садили трассерами по окнам парламента, не говоря уже про стельбу из орудий танков.

 Ну, с этим не спорю. Армия стреляла по парламенту и это показывали по телевизору. А вот стрельба по прохожим на улице - это скорее всего макашовцы и прочие, кто почувствовал вседозволенность.

----------


## Lampada

> Там было много всяких версий. Включая и ту, что первые убитые были застрелены с крыши американского посольства, которое находится прямо напротив "Белого дома". Вроде бы баллистическая экспертиза это доказала, но потом этот факт быстро замяли и материалы этой экспертизы куда-то из дела изчезли. ...

  

> Очень мило.

  А что "очень мило"? 
И сомнений у Юрочки не возникает по поводу этой версии:  конечно американцы стреляли по русской толпе!
Дипломаты - отличные стрелки.   ::

----------


## Lampada

> ... _Но и старуха вполне может ткнуть авоськой милиционера в морду.  
> В толпе люди ведут себя неадекватно, как агрессивные обезьяны.  
> А женщины особенно беспощадны в драке.  
> Так что, если она была в толпе, то была способна на всё. 
> Вам известно выражение "русский бунт, бессмысленный и беспощадный"?  
> В таком бунте могут участвовать и женщины, если ангрессия у них в крови.  
> Что касается вашего вопроса: когда барин прячется у себя в доме, челядь должна бежать на штурм.  
> Потому что это редкий шанс чтобы отвести душу и безнаказанно замочить кого-нибудь._

 Истина на истине сидит и истиной погоняет!  Такие "истины" на языковом учебном форуме могут исходить только от истинного тролля.   
Предупреждаю последний раз.  За ещё одним троллизмом последует окончательный бан.

----------


## Lampada

> Там было много всяких версий. Включая и ту, что первые убитые были застрелены с крыши американского посольства, которое находится прямо напротив "Белого дома". Вроде бы баллистическая экспертиза это доказала, но потом этот факт быстро замяли и материалы этой экспертизы куда-то из дела изчезли. ...

 Чтобы сделать баллистическую экспертизу, я думала нужны по крайней мере две точки:  входа и выхода пули, и убитых нельзя передвигать. Там всё на месте было сделано по науке? Что-то я сильно сомневаюсь.
Почему решили замять? Такой был бы отличный поворот истории!

----------


## Юрка

> А что "очень мило"?

 Мило, как ведут себя американцы в чужой стране, как они относятся к нашей стране (как к банановой республике, где можно всё). Мил уровень наглости и песпардонности. Ну, если эта версия верна. А я не удивлюсь, если она верна. По крайней мере в других странах они это делали. Дать список переворотов с участием США? Он есть в интернете. Так что американцы могут так поступить, если сочтут целесообразным. Мораль их не остановит.  

> И сомнений у Юрочки не возникает

 А почему вы фамильярничаете со мной?  

> Дипломаты - отличные стрелки.

 В здании посольства США есть:
1. Дипломаты,
2. Морские пехотинцы (охрана посольства),
3. Агенты ЦРУ, работающие под дипломатическим прикрытием. 
Ваша версия, что стреляли дипломаты не выдерживает критики. У них не было необходимости это делать, так как есть более квалифицированные люди (см. пукты 2 и 3).  

> Чтобы сделать баллистическую экспертизу, я думала нужны по крайней мере две точки: входа и выхода пули, и убитых нельзя передвигать. Там всё на месте было сделано по науке? Что-то я сильно сомневаюсь.
> Почему решили замять? Такой был бы отличный поворот истории!

 Какой там поворот истории? Не смешите мои тапочки. У вас там президента грохнули, и то ничего не доказали, хотя вопросов море. А тут несколько русских туземцев...

----------


## Basil77

> Чтобы сделать баллистическую экспертизу, я думала нужны по крайней мере две точки:  входа и выхода пули, и убитых нельзя передвигать. Там всё на месте было сделано по науке? Что-то я сильно сомневаюсь.
> Почему решили замять? Такой был бы отличный поворот истории!

 Можно сделать и по пулям, застрявшим в различных предметах, асфальте и.т.п. Подробностей не знаю, но такую версию слышал неоднократно и из многих источников. А почему замяли - это же очевидно. Тогда в советниках у Ельцина и даже на руководящих постах в ФСБ (оно тогда по-моему ещё называлось АФБР - агентство федеральной безопасности России) сидели кадровые сотрудники ЦРУ и бывшие диссиденты, завербованные ЦРУ ещё в советские годы.

----------


## Eric C.

> "Лес рубят - щепки летят"

 Используя данную метафору, они изначально пошли рубить не тот лес.

----------


## Alex_krsk

> Используя данную метафору, они изначально пошли рубить не тот лес.

 Рубить могут любой лес. Лезть при этом бессмысленно под топор - всё равно, что пытаться остановить автобус руками. Чё потом жаловаться то, если мозгов нет?

----------


## shnuddy

1461640_10152009060092906_350555494_n.jpg 531979_10151992365802906_1422657082_n.jpg 1459948_10151992463932906_444423863_n.jpg    

> Because the orders of the riot police are not to put up a fight, but to avoid a fight by any means with minimum injuries for the crowd. That's what they're paid for.

 Having read some of your posts I came to think that you are too bright an expert on a lot of issues which you have nothing to do with. You know everything about Belarus' people and what is best for them, you know what Ukrainian police should do and what they shouldn't. I won't be surprised if you turn out to be an American. But I wonder what makes you think that your stance on all the subjects mentioned is in line with reality. It looks like you still keep on distributing "democratization" around the world as you did with Native Americans long time ago. Their level of democracy left much to be desired from your point of view and you "democratized" them. How many innocent soldiers were killed in Iraq in vain? For the sake of what? A lot of American politicians and other prominent figures are instigators and you are singing the same tune with them. 
It's a very dangerous game you are playing and it's dangerous for you in the first place. I am sick of hearing this sinister ranting produced by such swindlers as John Kerry, David J. Kramer, James Greene and others. All they want is destabilize a country in which a civil conflict arises. That is what happened in Yugoslavia that is what they want to accomplish in Ukraine as well. Those who shout themselves hoarse and vandalize the country are in the right. They pay no attention to those who work and do their civil duties without barbarism and insane provocations against the standing government. How do these evil speakers keep preaching with their arms stained with innocent blood of Native Americans, Iraqis, Yugoslavs, Libyans and so on? It's an unprecedented case of cynicism and hypocrisy. The truth is that there are always those who don't like something about their own government and every government has some flaws. But to use it for your own carnal purposes is inhuman. What are the USA gangsters waiting for in Ukraine to happen? They are waiting for the moment when they can deploy NATO troops. It would have happened already but for Russia.  
Don't be self-righteous or shall I say - Do stop being self-righteous! Don't speak for Belorussians or Ukrainians unless you are one of them. You were not born to teach others how to live. Don't take my message solely personally but you sound as the American invading propaganda sounds to me. 
PS: Треть Украинцев считают США главной угрозой мира на Земле http://www.capital.ua/news/11460-tre...-miru-na-zemle

----------


## Lampada

Начинаю волноваться и спешу призвать к полному спокойствию.   Понятно, что дискуссии, споры, обмен мнениями - это хорошо и нужно, но возможный переход на личности чреват неприятными последствиями и потерями. Так что, во избежание этого, пожалуйста, осторожнее на поворотах!

----------


## diogen_

> Having read some of your posts I came to think that you are too bright an expert on a lot of issues which you have nothing to do with. You know everything about Belarus' people and what is best for them, you know what Ukrainian police should do and what they shouldn't. I won't be surprised if you turn out to be an American. *But I wonder what makes you think that your stance on all the subjects mentioned is in line with reality...*

 How can you prove that your own "stance on all the subjects is in line with reality"? What is the source of your unadulterated pure knowledge? ::

----------


## shnuddy

> How can you prove that your own "stance on all the subjects is in line with reality"? What is the source of your unadulterated pure knowledge?

 As long as I am a citizen of a certain country I know better what reality in my country is. If you think that somebody from a foreign country knows better what to do in your country in your city in your street, home, mind and heart then it's your problem.

----------


## diogen_

> As long as I am a citizen of a certain country I know better what reality in my country is. If you think that somebody from a foreign country knows better what to do in your country in your city in your street, home, mind and heart then it's your problem.

 What is your sitizenship?

----------


## Lampada

> What is your sitizenship?

 С личной перепиской лучше сюда:  http://masterrussian.net/private.php

----------


## diogen_

> С личной перепиской лучше сюда: http://masterrussian.net/private.php

 Это не личная переписка. А гносеологическое выяснение позиции по изложенному вопросу. Все в пределах правил форума.

----------


## Lampada

> Это не личная переписка. А гносеологическое выяснение позиции по изложенному вопросу. Все в пределах правил форума.

 Хорошо, тогда это оф-топик.  Для глубокого изучения - откуда, как и каковы источники познания наших форумчан, можно открыть отдельную тему в Общем разделе.  (Спасибо за философский термин).

----------


## diogen_

> Хорошо, тогда это оф-топик. Для глубокого изучения - откуда, как и каковы источники познания наших форумчан, можно открыть отдельную тему в Общем разделе. (Спасибо за философский термин).

 Нет. Не офф-топик. Высказывания *shnuddy* теоретически могут иметь  смысл только в том случае, если он является гражданином Украины и Белорусии. Если же он не является гражданином этих стран, то его возможности по получению достоверной информации  по обсуждаемому вопросу ничем не отличаются от возможностей *Eric C.* и его утверждение  

> As long as I am a citizen of a certain country I know better what reality in my country is. If you think that somebody from a foreign country knows better what to do in your country in your city in your street, home, mind and heart then it's your problem.

 не имеет никакого смысла в рамках данной дискуссии.

----------


## Lampada

> Нет. Не офф-топик. Высказывания *shnuddy* теоретически могут иметь  смысл только в том случае, если он является гражданином Украины и Белорусии. Если же он не является гражданином этих стран, то его возможности по получению достоверной информации  по обсуждаемому вопросу ничем не отличаются от возможностей *Eric C.* и его утверждение 
> не имеет никакого смысла в рамках данной дискуссии.

 Хорошо, а по теме что-нибудь есть?

----------


## diogen_

> Хорошо, а по теме что-нибудь есть?

  Когда я полностью выясню, все что меня интересует в позиции *shnuddy*, тогда и выскажусь по теме.А в чем проблема- то? Обычная беседа, таких здесь были тысячи.

----------


## Lampada

> Когда я полностью выясню, все что меня интересует в позиции *shnuddy*, тогда и выскажусь по теме.А в чем проблема- то? Обычная беседа, таких здесь были тысячи.

 Это вряд ли, я эту тему временно закрою, во избежание... Добро пожаловать в другие разделы.

----------

