# Forum Learning Russian Language Pronunciation, Speech & Accent  Examples of Russian dialects?

## Hanna

I've heard that there are hardly any difference in dialects across Russia, Ukraine Belarus and some of the other USSR countries.. Is this true? *Are there any good videos of people speaking with accents?*  
I saw an interview with the president of Chechnya and he definitely had an accent. But I don't think Russian is actually his mother tongue, so I guess that's a totally different story. What about other regional accents?
Surely people in Vladivostok speak differently from people in Novisibirsk, Moscow, St Petersburg or Kazakhstan?

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## Оля

No dialects in Russia. Just NO DIALECTS. 
(it's not regarding those whose mother tongue is not Russian, as Kadyrov, the president of Chechnya). 
The only noticeable feature in speaking is unstressed "o" pronouncing exactly as "o" (not as "a" like in the standard Russian). It's the region in the northeast against Moscow: Kostroma, Yaroslavl, Vologda. By the way, educated (say, "posh"   ::  ) people speak standard Russian even there.
Also, in the south (Sochi, Krasnodar krai) and, I think, in the areas close to Ukraine some people pronounce "г" as Ukrainian "г". 
If you'll ever read any tales about differences about Peterburg and Moscow speaking, stop reading that rubbish.   ::  Those differences really existed, but now they don't. Moscow and Peterburg inhabitants speak *identical*. The same is true for almost the whole Russia, actually. 
P.S. When I see on TV people from Ukraine or other former Soviet republics speaking Russian, very often they sound completely like any of my neighbours to me. If I am not mistaken, the prime minister of Armenia sounds like a common Russian to me (and the President of Armenia has a noticeable accent, but anyway his Russian is very good).

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## Hanna

Wow, to somebody from Europe this is almost hard to believe. it sounds impossible. Even the USA has accents... 
But if you say so... !  ::   
So the people who sound like they have accents are simply those with a different mother tongue..... _
When I was kid and watched that film,  you know, with the man who gets drunk and ends up in Leningrad on New Years Eve (forgot the title), I thought the plot was very silly, since he ought to have been able to notice the difference in how all the other people were speaking.... I thought the whole plot was completely flawed for this reason..  But I guess I was mistaken._

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## Оля

> _When I was kid and watched that film,  you know, with the man who gets drunk and ends up in Leningrad on New Years Eve (forgot the title), I thought the plot was very silly, since he ought to have been able to notice the difference in how all the other people were speaking.... I thought the whole plot was completely flawed for this reason..  But I guess I was mistaken._

   ::   ::   ::   ::  
Ooooooh my God, Johanna!   ::  You made me laugh soooooo much! Thank you!   ::   ::  
I think it's the joke of the day.   ::   
P.S. The movie title is "Ирония судьбы".

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## it-ogo

There are some stereotypes about local accents but in cities accents are almost lost. Maybe there are some in far countryside, I am not sure. It's tricky to find Russian native speaker with an expressed local accent.  
As for Ukrainian г in Russian speach, I've noticed a funny phenomenon: it switches on and off randomly with no evident reason (I mean in Ukraine, where I live). I caught myself doing that and was surprized. And nobody really feel the difference as I understand.

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## Basil77

There are some slightly local differences in word choice. For example in St. Peterburg they say "поребрик" instead of "бордюр", "парадное" instead of "подъезд" and "шавЕрма" instead of "шаурмА". Also I used to know a girl who lives in Saratov and only difference between her speech and mine was that she used the word "базар" instead of "рынок".

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## Звездочёт

> There are some slightly local differences in word choice. For example in St. Peterburg they say "поребрик" instead of "бордюр", "парадное" instead of "подъезд" and "шавЕрма" instead of "шаурмА".

 Сейчас придёт Оля (  ::  ) и съест вас даже без кетчупа: она очень не любит эту ммм... сказку.  ::

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## Оля

> There are some slightly local differences in word choice. For example in St. Peterburg they say "поребрик" instead of "бордюр", "парадное" instead of "подъезд" and "шавЕрма" instead of "шаурмА".

 The only true one is the one about шаурма/шаверма. They in St.Pete really say _шавЕрма_. But even about this one, there is a cafe on Nevsky avenue, right near the central city square, with a huge sign "ШАУРМА". It's an exception, anyway (although it's strange that it's right on Nevsky).

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## Basil77

> Сейчас придёт Оля (  ) и съест вас даже без кетчупа: она очень не любит эту ммм... сказку.

 Почему сказка? Я могу лично засвидетельствовать. Кроме, пожалуй, "парадного", так сейчас только старушки в Питере говорят. 
Оля, у меня есть знакомый в Питере, который упорно говорит "поребрик", даже когда приезжает в Москву. И насчёт того, что в Саратове местный рынок все называют "базар" тоже могу засвидетельствовать.

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## Lampada

В Киеве рынки под открытым небом назывались базары, а вот Бессарабский рынок был в здании и так же назывался.  
Вещевой рынок называли толкучкой.
Сенной на улице был базаром, а потом для него построили здание и он стал называться Сенным рынком.

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## Basil77

> В Киеве рынки под открытым небом назывались базары, а вот Бессарабский рынок был в здании и так же назывался.  
> Вещевой рынок называли толкучкой.
> Сенной на улице был базаром, а потом для него построили здание и он стал называться Сенным рынком.

 Там, где мне приходилось бывать, все рынки (и крытые, и открытые) называли (и называют) рынками. Слово "базар" я слышал в детстве только у Чуковского: "пошла муха на базар и купила самовар". У меня оно почему-то ассоциируется с экзотикой и востоком. Поэтому, когда я приехал в Саратов и услышал постоянное "базар, базар" мне это сильно резануло по ушам.

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## Оля

> Оля, у меня есть знакомый в Питере, который упорно говорит "поребрик", даже когда приезжает в Москву.

 Ну, один знакомый еще не показатель. Это же не значит, что вообще никто в Питере не говорит "бордюр".   

> И насчёт того, что в Саратове местный рынок все называют "базар" тоже могу засвидетельствовать.

 А про Саратов я вообще ничего не говорила. Я и так тебе верю.   ::

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## Hanna

> Ooooooh my God, Johanna!   You made me laugh soooooo much! Thank you!    
> I think it's the joke of the day.   
> P.S. The movie title is "Ирония судьбы".

 Haha.... glad to be of service --- (hmm.... but it wasn't that funny?! Just an incorrect assumption...)   But UR  very funny yourself sometimes.. So no probs!   ::  
Actually, I think I'm going to see if I can get hold of that film with some English subs. "Ирония судьбы" was on that list that I made, but I didn't realise that this was the same film that I remembered.     _To be honest, I think those old Soviet films are partly "insider jokes" that can be hard for non-Russians (and perhaps even younger people?) to understand... (American films can be a bit like that too, but on the other hand American culture is better known across the world...) Not to say those old comedies are not outstanding films, but I think I probably miss a lot of the finer points.  I watched "Mimino" a couple of weeks back; another film that I have actually seen in the past (and I like it a lot). But the whole setup with his hotel room and how he got it was not exactly easy to understand..._  
But back on topic:   *So to conclude*: There is only ONE Russian dialect and the variations are minimal and only related to a few words. People who appear to have accents are people who speak Russian as a second and not first langauge.  
Surely it can't always have been that way though? 
It must be the result of some kind of language campaign, or perhaps of people moving around a lot..?   
In the 19th century there must have been dialects!! 
The illiterate peasants in 19th century rural Russia can't have spoken school-book Russian!!   
If you take Germany for example, which is much smaller than Russia (as we know) there are probably at least, what, 30 different dialects and then lots of sub-dialects within the dialects. They can practically hear which village somebody hails from, or which region or town... And Germany too has had lots of upheavals over the years...  Same thing in the United Kingdom - it easily has 20 to 30 distinct dialects.  
So the situation with Russian accents is really intriguing. But then again Russia is not exactly the "average" European country, lol!! Quite unique..  
But this is VERY good thing for learners though! 
At least ONE thing about Russian that is uncomplicated...   ::  * PS - so what does the Ukrainian G sound like?*

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## sperk

> _PS - so what does the Ukrainian G sound like?_ [/b]

 I'm wondering what the Ukranian R sounds like.

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## it-ogo

> But the whole setup with his hotel room and how he got it was not exactly easy to understand...

 Yes, now this situation is hardly imaginable. Well... even socialism had some flaws...   ::     

> *So to conclude*: There is only ONE Russian dialect and the variations are minimal and only related to a few words. People who appear to have accents are people who speak Russian as a second and not first langauge.

 That's it mainly.   

> Surely it can't always have been that way though? 
> It must be the result of some kind of language campaign, or perhaps of people moving around a lot..?

 Ah! That was the 20th century. It was full of events and processes breaking traditional way of life and massive population relocations. Someone will surely say more...  ::    

> In the 19th century there must have been dialects!! 
> The illiterate peasants in 19th century rural Russia can't have spoken school-book Russian!!

 Well, even now there are different levels of colloquial language plus many slangs (related to age, profession etc.) but they seems to be mainly uniform across the Russian-spoken areas.   

> _PS - so what does the Ukrainian G sound like?_

 In short Ukrainian Г is voiced Х while Russian Г is voiced К. In some variants Ukrainian Г is completely swallowed or replaced with non-syllable schwa. I think Ukrainian Г is close to French R.   

> I'm wondering what the Ukranian R sounds like.

 Er? 
I think Ukrainian Р is exactly the same as Russian Р.

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## bitpicker

Johanna, I assume that one thing which is different in Russia and Germany is that Russia, especially the former Soviet Union, is such a vast territory in which Russian, or indeed any Slavic language, was just the indigenous language of a relatively small area. Ukrainian, Byelorussian are languages in their own right because they are located in a certain political territory, but they are pretty close to Russian. I mean, I can read and understand texts in Ukrainian based on what I know about Russian. The differences are smaller than between German and Dutch, for instance, but Dutch itself is technically just another German dialect. Don't tell the Dutch, though. But the local dialect of Germans near the Dutch border is, to all intents and purposes, the same as the Dutch dialect of Dutch people living on the other side of the border. Walk from village to village from, say, Hannover eastwards towards the Netherlands, and you will see how relatively clean HIgh German morphs into Dutch. 
In Russia, however, you get a lot more ethnicities whose territories were incorporated into the Soviet Union (or the large political bodies which preceded it, beginning with the Kiev Rus) but who originally did not speak any Slavic language at all. In such territories, there are no dialects but accents of the Russian (2nd) language at best, influenced by the indigenous language. You can compare this situation to the US, where English used to be a second language for the people who first moved there, so that today East Coast and West Coast American English are less distinct from each other than the English spoken in any two British villages 50 miles apart. 
In Gemany you get the added problem that the nation as such only formed relatively late in history. France, Britain (or at least England), Russia had long been actual nations with an aristocracy the language of which was seen as the 'standard dialect', when Germany was mostly an collection of fragmented mini states. 
There was also a dialectal shift which separated the northern German dialects (called Low German (Niederdeutsch) because the north is less elevated, dropping off towards the sea, whereas the South is more elevated, rising towards the alps, giving us 'High' or rather 'Upper German (Oberdeutsch)). This dialectal shift refers to certain consonantal differences. The northern dialects retain the old consonant system which gives us, for instance, 'wa*t*er' for 'Wa*ss*er' just as it is in English and, I expect, the Scandinavian Germanic languages. The Southern dialects made that shift, replacing a number of consonants. 
Then Luther came along and wrote his German Bible translation. Protestantism grew strong in the North, but in effect they had to learn the Biblical German like a 2nd language because Luther had based his translation on Southern German dialects which were practically incomprehensible to Northern Germans. This language replaced local Northern dialects to such an extent that today they seem comparatively weak and rare, even extinct in places, in comparison to Southern dialects. High German, the German you would have to learn as a 2nd language and which is the language of the media, is an artificial construct based on that Biblical language - it is a language which is not actually spoken in any given region of Germany as an indigenous language. It is not the Tsar's (or Moscow's) Russian, not the King's (or Paris') French, not the Queen's English, it is an artificial construct. Some places pride themselves on speaking the most clean High German, for example Hannover, but that just means that the local dialects had in fact been suppressed in these places most effectively. 
I live in Remscheid, that's some 40 km from Cologne. Cologne has a distinct dialect which has survived and is very much alive. I can understand it pretty well, though a learner of German would have a hard time with it. Remscheid has a distinct dialect which is almost extinct and is very different from that of Cologne; if a person well-versed in that dialect used it in conversation with me I would probably not be able to follow it. People from more Southern areas, even if they speak what they think is High German, often speak a German so coloured by their Swabian, Frankonian, Saxonian or Bavarian areas that sometimes I just don't understand them. If they actually speak their dialect it might just as well be Suaheli for all it's worth. 
Robin

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## Оля

> _PS - so what does the Ukrainian G sound like?_

 In this clip
[video:5okfjkch]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM2Gm5coYo4[/video:5okfjkch] 
Fedor Dobronravov says at 00:15, "О, це ж доро*г*о", you can hear the Ukrainian G there. 
Also here
[video:5okfjkch]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp5X5UaEPHc[/video:5okfjkch] 
He says at the beginning of the clip, "Девушка, а дайте мне, пожалуйста, последний бестселлер 'Война *г*алактик'". He pronounces so clearly the Ukrainian G.  :: 
Further in the clip he repeats it several times.

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## CoffeeCup

> France, Britain (or at least England), Russia had long been actual nations with an aristocracy the language of which was seen as the 'standard dialect'
> . . .
> the Tsar's Russian, not the King's French, the Queen's English

 What a worthwhile idea. In the 20th century the media (news, movies) were entirely Moscow based products. Spreading over the vast Russia's territory this makes all the Russians to speak equally. 
Here is one specific to Russia point to add. Just at the begin of the 20th century there was the Russian language reform which changed the alphabet and brough many logical rules into the grammar. Of course all this made any sense only for educated people, which amount (just after world war I and 1917 revolution) was very negligible. But new Russian government (yes, those people from 1917) made an incredible thing using their unlimited power they EDUCATED all the Russian people. As far as the "new Russian" became the subject of education and nobody knew it before there can't be any dialects for the "new Russian". As a result, today we have a huge territory with the people speaking in the only Russian dialect.

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## BappaBa

> People from more Southern areas, even if they speak what they think is High German, often speak a German so coloured by their Swabian, Frankonian, Saxonian or Bavarian areas that sometimes I just don't understand them.

 А учатся они по одному общему учебнику, или для каждой области учебник свой?

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## bitpicker

> А учатся они по одному общему учебнику, или для каждой области учебник свой?

 "High German" - стандарт немецкого языка. Этот язык применют в школе и в учебниках. На самом деле ученики в несколько областях учатся говорить этот язык в школе. Но, конечно, они знают этот язык от телевизора.

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## Hanna

Wow, lots of interesting information here. 
This is sooooooooooo weird -- I never could have imagined that there are no accents at all.   _
Imagine if the EU could the same conformity....... One language, no dialects. What money it could save! The EU translation "circus" is one of the biggest jokes about the EU.._   

> А учатся они по одному общему учебнику, или для каждой области учебник свой?

 No they would use the same text books. 
It's just that people pronounce the words differently. And they  probably (bitpicker will know) also use their "own" words for many everyday things...  
Sweden has the same situation that Bitpicker is describing. If you drive for five hours from Stockholm you can get to places where it's VERY hard to understand what people are saying. They understand me because they are used to the Stockholm accent from TV and radio. But I sometimes don't have a clue what they're saying. Younger people can usually change their speech so it becomes easier to understand. But some older people can't... 
Coffeecups explanation was interesting:    

> Here is one [sgy71s51]specific to[/sgy71s51] Russia-specific point to add. Just at the beginning of the 20th century, there was [sgy71s51]the[/sgy71s51] a Russian language reform which changed the alphabet and brought many logical rules into the grammar. Of course all this only made any sense for educated people, [sgy71s51]which[/sgy71s51] who  amounted (just after world war I and 1917 revolution) to a very negligible number. But the new Russian government (yes, those people from 1917) made an incredible thing using their unlimited power; they EDUCATED all the Russian people. The "new Russian" became the subject of education and there couldn't be any dialects for the "new Russian". As a result, today we have a huge territory [sgy71s51]with the[/sgy71s51] where people are speaking in [sgy71s51]the[/sgy71s51] just one [sgy71s51]only[/sgy71s51] Russian dialect.

 _
(coffeecup there was nothing seriously wrong in that paragraph - your English is outstanding..  just a few minor things that I felt inspired to point out.. No big deal...)_ 
Educating such a large amount of people in such short time has got to be one of the biggest achievements of the revolution. Who knows what had happened if the revolution had never taken place... Some people might still be toiling the land and hardly able to read.  
I guess the spelling reform that  you mentioned is the one where some old Cyrillic letters were removed from normal use...?

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## bitpicker

To give an example of the variance of German dialects, here's the prayer 'Our Father' in various variants. Note that the dialectal renditions are mostly phonetic, as dialects have no standard orthography. 
First, Russian: 
    Отче наш, сущий на небесах! да святится имя Твое;
    да приидет Царствие Твое; да будет воля Твоя и на земле, как на небе;
    хлеб наш насущный дай нам на сей день;
    и прости нам долги наши, как и мы прощаем должникам нашим;
    и не введи нас в искушение, но избавь нас от лукавого.
    Ибо Твое есть Царство и сила и слава во веки. Аминь. 
English (plain, modern): 
    Our Father in heaven,
        hallowed be your name,
        your kingdom come,
        your will be done,
            on earth as in heaven.
    Give us today our daily bread.
    Forgive us our sins
        as we forgive those who sin against us.
    Save us from the time of trial
        and deliver us from evil.
    For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours
        now and for ever. Amen. 
High German:
    Vater unser im Himmel,
    geheiligt werde dein Name.
    Dein Reich komme.
    Dein Wille geschehe,
    wie im Himmel so auf Erden.
    Unser tägliches Brot gib uns heute.
    Und vergib uns unsere Schuld,
    wie auch wir vergeben unseren Schuldigern.
    Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung,
    sondern erlöse uns von dem Bösen.
    Denn dein ist das Reich und die Kraft und die Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
    Amen.  
Alemannic dialect: 
Vàter unser ém Hémmel,
Gheiligt sei dine Nàmme
di Rich soll komme
Dine Wille soll gschah,
wie ém Hémmel, so uf d'r Arde.
Unser alltajlige Brot géb uns hét,
un vergéb uns unsri Schuld
wie oi mér én dane vergann,
wo àn uns gschuldigt hän.
Un fiehr uns nét én d'Versüechung,
àwer erlees uns vom Beese. 
Bavarian dialect:
Insa vådar im himö,
ghàiligt soi werdn dài' nåm.
Dài' ràich soi kema,
dài' wuin soi gschegn,
wia-r-im himö, aso àf dar eadn.
Gib ins hàind insa täglis broud,
und vargib ins insar schuid,
wia-r-à mia dene vagebm,
dé an ins schuidig wordn sàn.
Und fiar ins nét in d vasuachung,
sundan darles ins vom ibö. 
Letzeburgian (spoken in Luxemburg): 
    Eise Papp am Himmel,
    däin Numm sief gehellegt.
    Däi Räich soll kommen,
    däi Wëll soll geschéien
    wéi am Himmel sou op der Äerd.
    Gëff eis haut eist deeglecht Brout,
    verzei eis eis Schold,
    wéi mer och deene verzeien,
    déi an eiser Schold sinn.
    Féier eis net an d'Versuchung,
    mee maach eis fräi vum Béisen.
    Well däint ass d'Räich an d'Kraaft
    an d'Herrlechkeet an Éiwegkeet. 
Plattdeutsch (northern German dialect):
    Uns Vadder in'n Himmel!
    Laat hilligt warrn dien Naam.
    Laat kamen dien Riek.
    Laat warrn dien Willen so as in'n Himmel,
    so ok op de Eerd.
    Uns dääglich Brood giff uns vundaag.
    Un vergiff uns unse Schuld,
    as wi de vergeven hebbt,
    de an uns schüllig sünd.
    Un laat uns nich versöcht warrn.
    Mak uns frie vun dat Böse.
    Denn dien is dat Riek un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit. 
Swabian:
Unser Fadder im Himmel,
dei Naame loss heilich sei.
Dei Reich loss kumme.
Dei Wille loss geduh sei,
uff die Erd wie im Himmel.
Unser deeglich Brot gebb uns heit,
Un vergebb unser Schulde,
wie mir die vergewwe wu uns schuldich sinn.
Un fiehr uns net in die Versuchung,
awwer hald uns vum Iewile.
Fer dei is es Reich, die Graft,
un die Hallichkeit in Ewichkeit. 
And that's just a small selection, actually some of the dialectal Wikipedia articles for a given dialect give different versions according to how they speak in different regions within the same dialectal family. It's also interesting to see that text in other, historical versions of Germanic languages. This, for instance, is Old High German, ca. 700 - 1050, actually an Alemannic version: 
Fater unsêr, 
thû pist in himile, 
uuîhi namun dînan, 
qhueme rîhhi dîn, 
uuerde uuillo diin, 
sô in himile sôsa in erdu. 
Prooth unsêr emezzihic kip uns hiutu, 
oblâz uns sculdi unsêro, 
sô uuir oblâzêm uns sculdîkêm, 
enti ni unsih firleiti in khorunka, 
ûzzer lôsi unsih fona ubile. 
Robin

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## rockzmom

Johanna... Sorry for jumping in so late onto this thread... I hope you do not mind.   ::   
I too thought the same as you about Russian accents, so do not feel bad at all.   ::  
When I first started out and was going to mention something in my book about them and thankfully I learned from a member that there was no such animal!!!   ::  I was as flabbergasted as you. How could there not be ANY accents anywhere when I only need to travel a short distance to find native English speakers with accents different from my own who have grown up in the same state as me?    

> ...You can compare this situation to the US, where English used to be a second language for the people who first moved there, so that today East Coast and West Coast American English are less distinct from each other than the English spoken in any two British villages 50 miles apart.
> Robin

 Robin... first off, let me say that you are just a wealth of information about languages. All of your postings about language history and the depth in which you explain (on this thread and others) have been fascinating to read.  
Secondly, while the east and west coasts (with the exception of New York, New Jersey and New England areas) may be getting less distinct, it is the speed at which we speak that is still very different. The east still speak at a much faster pace than the west and you will find this even if you call operator assistance. If you call information or weather, the pace at which the recorded information is given, is much faster and the words are clipped on the east coast compared to the west coast. When ever I travel to Los Angeles, I find myself wanting to pull the words out of people's mouths as they take too long to speak!  ::  
The southern states and midwest, those states are all together a different animal and you can tell people are from those areas as soon as they open their mouths. It is not only their accents, it is their pace and word choices.

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## kt_81

> Originally Posted by bitpicker  People from more Southern areas, even if they speak what they think is High German, often speak a German so coloured by their Swabian, Frankonian, Saxonian or Bavarian areas that sometimes I just don't understand them.   А учатся они по одному общему учебнику, или для каждой области учебник свой?

 В Германии школьное образование - дело отдельных федеральных земель, а не Бунда, то есть государства. Это не только причина разных, несогласованных между собой школьных книг, но и разница в самой школьной программе. Считается, что, например, абитур (степень образования, получаемая в гимназии; высшая из всех школьных), полученный в Баварии или Баден-Вюртемберг (юг Германии), "ценится" больше чем абитур откуда-нибудь с севера. Тут надо, однако, сказать, что центральные вопросы и темы абитура одинаковы по всей Германии, в этом плане земли каким-то чудом договорились.
Я неоднократно слыхал от учеников, переехавших сюда в Баварию, что тут немного тяжелей учиться. Но сам судить не берусь, ибо видал изнутри только баварские школы.

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## Hanna

> Johanna... Sorry for jumping in so late onto this thread... I hope you do not mind.

 Not at all - the situation with US accents is interesting since they aren't "ancient" accents as I understand it... Just perhaps related to the origins of the people who settled in the area, or... well who knows..?  But it's interesting that America has some distinct accents despite being a "young" country, while Russia, an ancient country has not..  
There is one area in the US that really fascinates me, called Appalachia.. A friend of mine has been there and I was really fascinated by her tales and pictures. It has quite a distinct accent, I understand, which sounds a bit comical but very friendly. The nature there is gorgeous and there is a hiking trail which seems great. This area is pretty high on my "dream holiday" list...

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## devochka

You should all come to Belgium! We have a different dialect in every town and village. Flanders (the Dutch-speaking part) is a bit over 13 000 km² and often it is almost impossible to understand each other when people speak their own dialect. I am from the east and I went to colleg in the west of Flanders, where I met mostly students from the West. Honestly, it took me a year to be able to fully understand a conversation   ::  . Even now, after 6 years of living here, I still occasionally have some problems.
Apart from dialects, there are also regional accents. Most people can usually tell by their speech where someone is originally from. 
Nowadays, a mix is emerging. Not really standard Dutch, but not a dialect either. Standard Dutch is often considered high-brow so most people mix in some slang, dialect words and keep their regional accents.  
These days though, dialects aren't spoken as often anymore. Standard Dutch is used on tv, in school, every official situation. So everyone of course understands standard Dutch but not everyone can speak it. Especially the older generation keeps speaking their dialect. Also, people move a lot more than they used to. My parents for example: my mom and dad are from different regions and speak different dialects but they moved to a third region (my dad as a kid, my mother after they married), but they don't speak that dialect. So my parents speak sort of a standard Dutch to each other and my brother and me. I never learned the dialect from my town although I can understand it.
In the West, dialects are more popular though. Which is one of the reason I had trouble understanding my friends for such a long time. They weren't used to talking standard Dutch (although they were able to) so I had to adapt. My best friend switches between dialect when she's with other friends and standard Dutch when she's just talking to me   ::  .

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## rockzmom

> There is one area in the US that really fascinates me, called Appalachia.. A friend of mine has been there and I was really fascinated by her tales and pictures. It has quite a distinct accent, I understand, which sounds a bit comical but very friendly. The nature there is gorgeous and there is a hiking trail which seems great. This area is pretty high on my "dream holiday" list...

 For a laugh, you might want to check out this old thread. I know that xRoosterx is from the Tennessee area; yet, I believe he stated that people said he sounds like he is from Boston and he has a mixture of native Russian and southern accent.  
I have heard this type of accent before on certain words that Russian's pronounce, they sound very "Bostonian," like a Kennedy. Yet I am surprised that it happened to someone who has spent a major portion of their life (from childhood) in a real southern state. 
I know we have other people from North Carolina on MR, I am not certain how close they are to the Appalachian area. As a child, I went to the Appalachian area many times. One of the sites you want to add to that dream vacation is the Smokey Mountains and Clingman's Dome. It is the highest point (6,643 feet) in Tennessee and a great hike.

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## Lampada

Вот пара интересных статей по теме: http://rus.1september.ru/2006/21/3.htm http://www.childlit.ccn.org.ru/dokl09.htm 
Есть Словарь русских народных говоров:  http://litagents.ru/languagelern/russia ... 1.-a..html

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## alexB

-	Look at that, look at that!
-	What?
-	It’s that Russian dude who when he speaks everybody in Russia understands. He’s a monster. Can you believe that?
-              Jesus merciful Christ! You don’t say!  
Just as we were all getting to be stuck up about our one distinction that places us high up above all the other nations in the world, looking down upon awestricken audience ready to deliver the prize, golden in all probability, Lampada swept us all away from the pedestal with those little links of hers. What is left now to be proud of?  ::

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## Lampada

> ...Just as we were all getting to be stuck up about our one distinction that places us high up above all the other nations in the world, looking down upon awestricken audience ready to deliver the prize, golden in all probability, Lampada swept us all away from the pedestal with those little links of hers. What is left now to be proud of?

 Like I am the only one who has access to Google.  ::

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## it-ogo

> Just as we were all getting to be stuck up about our one distinction that places us high up above all the other nations in the world

 M? Who did say that having no dialects and accents is good? Finger that person.  ::    

> Lampada swept us all away from the pedestal with those little links of hers.

 Sorry, didn't get it. What did those links change? Of course professional lingusts will find dialects or something like. It's their job. The point was one can hardly meet it in a real life.

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## Lampada

> ... What did those links change? Of course professional lingusts will find dialects or something like. It's their job. The point was one can hardly meet it in a real life.

  In real life travelling could help.

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## it-ogo

> In real life travelling could help.

 Yep. Search and you will find. But hardly other way. 
Edit: There was a time I was looking around for dialects and accents. No travels though. You see, in Donbass we have people of very different origin. Once I found a guy with something in his intonations made me guess he is originally from the Western Ukraine. I asked him. OMG, he was from Vladivostok. 
When in Odessa I tried to find famous Odessa speaking. I was walking around the city and listening how people conversates with each other. From little children to very old. Accent not found. Pure Russian everywhere.

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## CoffeeCup

> I guess the spelling reform that you mentioned is the one where some old Cyrillic letters were removed from normal use...?

 Here are two links to wiki: Russian and English. Note that the English page briefly covers all the evolutional changes of the Russian alphabet while the Russian link is specific to the reform of 1918.

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## Оля

> In real life travelling could help.

 Lampada, I don't need to travel to listen to how some passer-by in the Crimea speaks, stopped by a TV journalist in the street. 
Also, no one says people in Russia don't have speaking differences at all. The point is that the situation is absolutely different than in Europe or USA, or maybe some other places in the world: the distance between Moscow and Petersburg is big enough, but people speak the same way in both cities. I, personally, have been to some other cities in Russia, big and small (Tver, Tarusa, Sochi, Kostroma, Perm...). I also met people from many other towns in Moscow. If differences exist, they're very slight and casual. And mostly regarding pronunciation only, not vocabulary or grammar. In most cases no differences at all. 
P.S. As for Kostroma, they almost all "окают" there, that's true.

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## Hanna

> Finger that person.

 You mustn't say that!   ::  Particularly not in reference to women!  _If you want to know what that actually  means, search Google Images for "fingering" and turn off the "Safe Search" filter....  That's all I'm going to say...._   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::   ::    ::   
But seriously, I know what you meant and you should actually say: 
"Name that person"
"Identify that person" or perhaps 
"Point that person out".

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## Hanna

*
Hurrah for this single aspect of Russian which is actually EASY!*   _Thank you Peter the Great, Lenin and everybody else who made it so....   _

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## bitpicker

Oh, but there's the lack of different past tenses and of a subjunctive worth the name which is also very refreshing.  ::

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## it-ogo

::    

> If you want to know what that actually  means, search Google Images for "fingering" and turn off the "Safe Search" filter....  That's all I'm going to say....

 Hmmm... I didn't know about that meaning. But in my filtered vocabulary there is even meaning "point out with a finger" for this word. Fascinating. My foreign nature should be a good excuse to use this word more free... 
:"":  
BTW, Someone told me a story about a Russian guy in Sweden. There was a Swedish girl who had a problem with some PC software. When the Russian guy told her "Give me your mouse and I will show you" all Swedes in the room found it very funny. Is it really so funny?

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## Hanna

Haha, well you know I speak English as a foreign language too, and I have made some really embarrassing mistakes - particularly when I first moved to England and started using slang expressions before I really understood what they meant.  
Yes, you are right that "Pointing fingers" is correct. For example:    

> Everybody was wondering who the office thief was. Many people started *pointing fingers* at colleagues whom they did not like... _(meaning that they spread rumours,  insinuated or made accusations about who the thief might be)_

 English is FULL of illogical expressions and exceptions to the rules. 
It's frankly impossible to learn them all unless you are exposed to spoken and written English every day...  (Really, of all the languages in the world to be the common "lingua franca" English is really not very well suited since it's hard for most people to pronounce, has very illogical spelling and does not have consistent grammar...)  _Re the joke about "mouse" -- this was funny to the Swedish guys because "mouse" in Swedish is quite similar to the English word (mus),  and it is slang for private parts of women... Plus the rumour about Russian guys in Sweden is that they are very macho..   
This joke probably wouldn't even be funny to an English speaking person! The Russian guy surely had no way of knowing about it, particularly if they were speaking in English. _

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## Aimak

Вот уж не знал, что в других странах (относительно небольших) есть множество диалектов, что люди с трудом понимают друг-друга. В России, в национальных республиках, иногда употребляются слова, заимствованные из языка этой республики. Например, башка, айда. Иногда в речь специально вставляются слова из другого языка. Но это как правило исключение. 
Есть глухие деревни, где жители практически не говорят и с трудом понимают русский язык (ну очень редко).
Ну а про акцент… Все-таки он есть в разных областях. Коль  уж зашел разговор о Питере и Москве, то в Питере все-таки говорят мяягШе (Оля, это слово можешь не исправлять).  ::    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0% ... 0%B5%D0%B2

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## Оля

> в Питере все-таки говорят мяягШе

 Что ты имеешь в виду? Что там так произносят это слово или что там сама речь "мягче"? Если последнее, поясни, что ты имел в виду?
Что касается произношения самого слова, его там произносят так же как в Москве. "Мякше", как и "лекше", никто сегодня не говорит.

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## Aimak

> Originally Posted by Aimak  в Питере все-таки говорят мяягШе   Что ты имеешь в виду? Что там так произносят это слово или что там сама речь "мягче"? Если последнее, поясни, что ты имел в виду?
> Что касается произношения самого слова, его там произносят так же как в Москве. "Мякше", как и "лекше", никто сегодня не говорит.

 Ты совершенно права, это слово "мягче"  одинаково произносится по всей территории России. Я имел в виду речь (выговор). Хоть и очень слабый, но акцент есть (по сравнению с моим  регионом). Я каждый день общаюсь с людьми из разных регионов и везде есть ну очень слабый (специфичный для каждого региона) акцент в разговоре. Я бы даже разделил Россию в плане акцентов так - Русский север, Кавказ, Центральная часть (с Москвой и МО), Поволжье, Урал с Западной Сибирью Восточная Сибирь с Дальним Востоком (Хотя, может быть это субъективно)

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## Оля

Я так и не поняла, что значит "речь мягче". Ты пример этой "мягкости" можешь привести? (а заодно свой регион назвать?)

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## Aimak

Как можно передать словами запах цветов?
А регион...   Зачем? Это так важно? ::

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## Оля

> А регион...   Зачем? Это так важно?

 Боишься, что я тебя найду?   ::   
Регион - нет, конечно, это не важно, когда речь идет о говорах. Мы ж все так любим болтать отвлеченно о всяких говорах и диалектах - так зачем нам конкретика? Мы лучше в сотый раз ссылку на статью в Википедии дадим. И все дружно перечитаем.

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## Lampada

> ... Мы ж все так любим болтать отвлеченно о всяких говорах и диалектах - так зачем нам конкретика? Мы лучше в сотый раз ссылку на статью в Википедии дадим. И все дружно перечитаем.

 Ага, нам как кол на голове теши...    ::

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## Basil77

> Ага, нам хоть кол на голове теши...

 Лампада, если это просто такой прикол, тогда сорри за исправления   ::   .

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## it-ogo

> Ага, нам хоть колья на головах теши...

 Мои $0.05.  ::

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## Aimak

Ну если дело дошло до таких разборок... Тогда ладно.....
Волгари не ОКАЮТ, Москвичи не АКАЮТ, а кавказцы НЭ пишут в Питере шАверма 
Надеюсь все довольны и счастлины ??   ::

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## sperk

As a point of interest, before 1900 most of the people in France didn't speak French, rather various dialects that often differed from village to village.

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## Lampada

> Originally Posted by Lampada  Ага, нам хоть кол на голове теши...      Лампада, если это просто такой прикол, тогда сорри за исправления    .

 Не, это просто моя ошибка.   ::

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## raenoma

Я заметила что люди из других странах говорят не то же самое. У них разные произношения. Особенно из Украина люди вместо звука "г" делают "х". Также всё зависит от скольких языков они говорят в общем.

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## Звездочёт

> Я заметила, что люди из других ("из разных" is better) стран[s:3s9lqjrd]ах[/s:3s9lqjrd] говорят [s:3s9lqjrd]не то же самое[/s:3s9lqjrd] по-разному. У них разные произношения. Особенно люди [s:3s9lqjrd]из[/s:3s9lqjrd] c (exeption) Украины [s:3s9lqjrd]люди[/s:3s9lqjrd]: вместо звука "г" делают "х". Также всё зависит от того, на скольких языках они говорят [s:3s9lqjrd]в общем[/s:3s9lqjrd] вообще.

 In Russian Украина is exception. We speak «с» instead of «из» (from), and «на» instead of «в» (in): с Украины, на Украине. It was formed historically and depends on etymology of the country name. Modern Russian politicians don’t obey this rule and use “standard” prepositions, because some Ukrainians take offence at Russians for this exception, however, in spite of politicians, «с» and «на» in this case are still norms of Russian grammar.

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## Оля

> У них разн*ое* произношение.

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## Qwerty

Думаю, тут уместно будет спросить: частица "чай" сейчас в Москве (и вообще по России) употребляется?

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## translationsnmru

> Думаю, тут уместно будет спросить: частица "чай" сейчас в Москве (и вообще по России) употребляется?

 No, never.

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## Qwerty

> Originally Posted by Qwerty  Думаю, тут уместно будет спросить: частица "чай" сейчас в Москве (и вообще по России) употребляется?   No, never.

 А у нас тут в Нижегородской области достаточно часто в обычной речи. Значит, это местное...

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## Hanna

> Oh, but there's the lack of different past tenses and of a subjunctive worth the name which is also very refreshing.

 Bitpicker can you confirm that? Just ONE past tense in total and nothing else. I.e. 	
"Я говорилa"
No other way of speaking of the past? 
I thought there must be a few more that I hadn't come across...  
I didn't know what subjunctive was. Then I saw a German example and I understood what it is and I agree that this is tricky.

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## Оля

> Bitpicker can you confirm that? Just ONE past tense in total and nothing else.

 I don't know if Bitpicker can confirm that, but I can't   ::     

> I.e. 	
> "Я говорилa"
> No other way of speaking of the past?

 I'm afraid "говорила" is not the best example because the perfective verb for "говорить" is "сказать", i.e. a verb with another root. 
Let's take the verb pair "делать" and "сделать":
You can say "я делал(а)" and "я сделал(а)", so there are TWO ways for expressing the past tense.
But... then again, they're two different verbs... So yes then, only ONE way of speaking of the past.   ::

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## Hanna

Thanks for your infinite patience  ::   with my stupid comments!   ::   
I must start using a grammar book!  
I think it's time I gave up on that stupid Swedish-Russian grammar book which is never arriving. Apparently it's out of stock. There was an unexpectedly high number of kids that signed up for Russian this year as school started and it run out. Bad timing for me.That book is supposed to be genius, and Swedish has some minor grammatical similarities to Russian which English is lacking -- that's why I've been hanging on to this idea.
But I'll get some other version or an English one.

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## Pollymundo

Johanna, the main character of the film "Ирония судьбы" couldn't notice the difference in how all the other people were speaking even if there was such difference because he was drunk as a Lord    ::   ::      

> Wow, to somebody from Europe this is almost hard to believe. it sounds impossible. Even the USA has accents... 
> But if you say so... !   
> So the people who sound like they have accents are simply those with a different mother tongue..... _
> When I was kid and watched that film,  you know, with the man who gets drunk and ends up in Leningrad on New Years Eve (forgot the title), I thought the plot was very silly, since he ought to have been able to notice the difference in how all the other people were speaking.... I thought the whole plot was completely flawed for this reason..  But I guess I was mistaken._

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## Vincent Tailors

Eastern Ukrainians who speak Russian as their native language universally stretch sounds like "Нууу яяя емууу сказааал". 
In Russia everywhere you speak absolutely identical.

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## Hanna

> Johanna, the main character of the film "Ирония судьбы" couldn't notice the difference in how all the other people were speaking even if there was such difference because he was drunk as a Lord

 Lol!! I know he was drunk..... But he sobered up after he got to the flat, didn't he? Plus -- In the UK you would have to be DEAD not to notice the difference between Manchester and London accents. Or München  vs  Hamburg accent in Germany....   I think Russia is the ONLY country in the world that does not have accents.  
I have a bad habit of ruining the viewing experience for myself by thinking about what's implausible about a film. Silly habit really, but that makes me think of things like that.  
Other than that, this film is very funny and cleverly done. It sure looks like Russia is full of 1960s "rocket" style identical looking public housing, and streets with the same names.... I think it's a genius film, apart from feeling a bit sorry for the girl who got stood up on New Years Eve, and dumped in favour of the Leningrad girl. What did she do wrong to deserve such treatment??

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## Crocodile

> I think it's a genius film, apart from feeling a bit sorry for the girl who got stood up on New Years Eve, and dumped in favour of the Leningrad girl.

 There's a newer sequel of that movie in which Eugene actually marries Galya and they have a son. And also Nadya marries Ippolit (and they have a daughter). But both couples got divorced by the time the action takes place.    

> What did she do wrong to deserve such treatment??

 Nothing really. There wasn't anything terribly wrong with Ippolit either. That was I think the whole point of the movie: *It might be good, but is it really yours?*

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## it-ogo

> Eastern Ukrainians who speak Russian as their native language universally stretch sounds like "Нууу яяя емууу сказааал".

 ???  ::

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## Оля

> apart from feeling a bit sorry for the girl who got stood up on New Years Eve, and dumped in favour of the Leningrad girl. What did she do wrong to deserve such treatment??

 In the beginning of the film, when she leaves Zhenya's flat and stands out, in the staircase already, he says to her, "But, you know, it's not nice that we won't go to Katanyans [=his friend's family]". And she answers, "They'll manage without!". If you only can hear her tone in that phrase... And how rude that sounds, the tone and the phrase itself... That's definitely not how Nadya ever could answer. 
However, she behaves like a real fool when Zhenya calls her from Leningrad and tries to explain everything. Also, she is very tactless and stupid when she asks Nadya how old she is and afterwards: "Последний шанс?" (=is this your last chance?). That's very rude, and that's her exact intention.   

> There's a newer sequel of that movie

 ...which people didn't like at all.
Just a trashy market product.

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## Hanna

Yeah, that's right, I remember now. Ok that explains it. 
This film was shown every year in Sweden in between Christmas and New Years - so I've seen it many times. The other Russian film that was shown was "Three Musketeers" as a marathon of all episodes (and then old Lion Witch and Wardrobe cartoon, Ivanhoe from the UK... and the best of Disney..!) Nostalgia!   
I guess I won't be watching the sequel then if it's no good. I've got enough Russian films on my "to - watch" list...
What a treat!

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## Crocodile

> And how rude that sounds, the tone and the phrase itself... That's definitely not how Nadya ever could answer.

 Unfortunately, we don't know that for sure. I bet Galya sounded very nice the first time she and Eugene met...   ::

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## Оля

> Originally Posted by Оля  And how rude that sounds, the tone and the phrase itself... That's definitely not how Nadya ever could answer.   Unfortunately, we don't know that for sure. I bet Galya sounded very nice the first time she and Eugene met...

 The main thing is not how someone "sounds", but "the inner content". In some phrases, it only can become apparent... I don't think that the first time Galya and Eugene met, she sounded nicer than in the whole first scene of the film. In only that scene, too, some of her character traits have been shown to a viewer. It's strange, if you don't see the difference between her "niceness" and Nadya's.  ::

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## Crocodile

> The main thing is not how someone "sounds", but "the inner content".

 They say you shouldn't judge anyone until you put yourself in their shoes... So, imagine yourself in the same situation. You have a BF who is a really nice guy, you like him a lot and he seems to like you too, but unfortunately he can't realize you're not getting any younger... So, you decide perhaps he just needs a gentle push. So, one gentle push after another, and you find your BF becoming a pushover. You sincerely hate that situation because you want your BF to be a man, take responsibility, and maybe take some of your responsibility as well. At some point you decide this chapter has to be finished somehow and choose the New Year's Eve to become a special night of just the two of you. Unfortunately, even though you send him the right messages all over the place, your BF even in his thirties acts like a little puppy and asks what about his mom being staying with you? You say as loudly as you can: "Your mom is great!!" having your fingers crossed hoping she would hear and understand because she's also a woman. And (Oh, thank God!) she's a bit offended, but she's with you! So, just after you thought the worst was over, that puppy of yours sheepishly asks: "And what about my friends family?" It's hard to tell how angry and frustrated would you be at that point because whatever special you prepared for tonight is about to drain down the toilet!!   ::  So, you try to control yourself and manage not to scream, but tell as polite as you can (but firm) that they would just do fine without both of you. And again, you're neither a bully, nor a control-freak. The only thing you ask your BF is to come back from his sauna in, say, 3 hours to start the night. What would you feel after 4, 5, 6 hours? I think you would be rather torn between the desire of killing him or calling all the dead houses in your city... So, in the middle of the night he turns out to be just fine (!) with a phone call from another city with another woman!!!!    ::   If you can avoid being rude at that point, you deserve all my respect.   ::

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## Hanna

Interesting point Crocodile. From a modern perspective I agree with your point. Personally I am more likely to have acted like Galya, to be honest, although it's hard to say.   But the film was made in the 1970s though, and feminist concerns were probably not on the agenda of the director. He basically had no sympathy for Galya's dilemma (which you outline).   
In truth; Eugene himself had some shortcoming as a boyfriend: (It was a VERY long time since I saw this film, but as I recall it): 
-Cannot say "no" to his friends. 
-Possible alcohol problem.
-Lives with his mother despite being over 30.
-After just one night together he's crazy in love with another woman, despite planning to propose to Galya! With that in mind, how is he going to be able to be faithful in a marriage?  
He might still be a great guy, but personally I'd consider these things to be "warning signs".

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## Crocodile

> But the film was made in the 1970s though, and feminist concerns were probably not on the agenda of the director. He basically had no sympathy for Galya's dilemma (which you outline).

 Maybe it's true. Not sure... I was just wondering why Оля despised Galya's "inner content" so much ...  

> In truth; Eugene himself had some shortcoming as a boyfriend [...] He might still be a great guy, but personally I'd consider these things to be "warning signs".

 Yes, BUT!!! He didn't act with Nadya that way!! He seemed rather determined, didn't he?

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## Оля

> ...It's hard to tell how angry and frustrated would you be at that point...

 All what you described, was clear to me without your explanation. I know _why_ she is angry. It's the same if someone stands in a shop queue and finally begins to curse and cry aloud that he is tired and they are all bastards who invented those queues. It's clear _why_ the person is angry. Only _not everyone_ would behave like that. 
Also, when a woman begins to think "will he marry me, finally?", it means that LOVE somehow has been sidelined already. Maybe there was no even LOVE.   

> If you can avoid being rude at that point, you deserve all my respect

 Of course I can. Be sure. If I love a man, I'll hear him out, at least. Maybe that's an uncommon and outmoded behaviour.
And I would never insult some woman I don't even see in such a disgusting way ("Последний шанс?"). 
P.S.
However, I often see 'couples' (in life, in the streets, in transport) who have relations, and it's obvious that, pardon my French, they sleep with each other. And they probably really think they love each other. But often, the only one conversation I heard between them shows so much that I say to myself, "It's better not to have relations at all than have relations like that".
I think that people often just "have" their partners, I mean like they'd have a thing which they bought once and just use it and consider it as their "own". That's why Galya wants to kill him when he's not home at 12.00. He just MUST be there because he is her boyfriend and because she put on a new dress!!
That's the approximate way I see it...

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## Crocodile

> Maybe that's an uncommon and outmoded behaviour.

 Maybe. But, if you really believe in what you said, I take my hat off to you.

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## Crocodile

> That's why Galya wants to kill him when he's not home at 12.00. He just MUST be there because he is her boyfriend and because she put on a new dress!!

 And maybe because he promised and she wants to count on him in life.

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## Оля

> And maybe because he promised and she wants to count on him in life.

 This sounds like a demagogy to me. Это общие слова. А есть конкретная ситуация. В конкретной ситуации люди не делают общих выводов, они бесятся/расстраиваются по конкретному поводу. Выводы они делают потом, когда ситуацию уже пережили. 
And actually it's funny that Galya 'wants to count on him in life'. Ha ha ha. Does he look like that???? If she loves him as he is, it's okay, but if she 'counts on him in life' (or wants to), that means she wants to reform him. Why to reform someone who doesn't fit your ideas of an ideal man? It's better to find another one.

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## Crocodile

> Originally Posted by Crocodile  And maybe because he promised and she wants to count on him in life.   That sounds like a demagogy to me. Это общие слова. А есть конкретная ситуация. В конкретной ситуации люди не делают общих выводов, они бесятся/расстраиваются по конкретному поводу. Выводы они делают потом, когда ситуацию уже пережили.

 Or when they have the similar situation over again.  

> Why to reform someone who doesn't fit your ideas of an ideal man? It's better to find another one.

 Yeah... the old dilemma... Some people are more popular than others, I guess.

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## Оля

> Or when they have the similar situation over again.

 Крокодильчик, ты хоть понимаешь, что когда женщина в очередной ситуации говорит о тебе "ну вот опять этот козёл, твою мать!.......", это как-то слабо смахивает на любовь? Нет, если тебя устраивают такого рода отношения - пожалуйста. Меня лично нет. Я не понимаю, как это может быть - "он козел, он меня сто раз уже достал, но я хочу за него замуж". Но похоже, многие мужчины с этим мирятся. Ты мне сейчас, возможно, станешь рассказывать, что "милые бранятся - только тешатся" и т.п. Понимаешь, браниться тоже можно по-разному. Если ты готов принять отношение "ах, этот урод/козел/сволочь... и т.п." за любовь - твоё дело. Только не надо пропагандировать, что это норма отношений мужчины и женщины, что так и должно быть. 
И потом, дело не в том, что она ответила там про Катанянов и что именно ее возмутило. Дело в самом тоне этой ее фразы. Тон холодный и циничный. Там нет не только любви, но даже негодования. Там расчет - "я тебя на себе женю, и точка."

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## Crocodile

> Если ты готов принять отношение "ах, этот урод/козел/сволочь... и т.п." за любовь - твоё дело.

 Да я, вроде, и не говорил такое. Ни сном ни духом, как говорится.  

> Только не надо пропагандировать, что это норма отношений мужчины и женщины, что так и должно быть.

 И где же я такое пропагандировал? Зачем такой резкий тон? И к месту ли?  

> Дело в самом тоне этой ее фразы. Тон холодный и циничный. Там нет не только любви, но даже негодования. Там расчет - "я тебя на себе женю, и точка."

 Последний раз я смотрел этот фильм довольно давно, поэтому настаивать не буду. Но тон - дело деликатное. И субъективное.  
PS. А чего ты собственно так накинулась? Кто тебя укусил? Не нравится тебе Галя - и ладно. Ты считаешь, что Надя - образец для подражания? Пожалуйста. Хотя, как мне кажется, её образ в фильме раскрыт недостаточно. Возможно, чтобы больше подходить на роль положительной героини. Всё-таки фильм - не шедевр и с Гамлетом вряд ли сравнится.  ::

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## sperk

> You should all come to Belgium! .

 I've often wondered about Belgium. How do the Dutch and French speakers communicate? What's TV like, a choice between French and Dutch, subtitles?

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## Звездочёт

> Я не понимаю, как это может быть - "он козел, он меня сто раз уже достал, но я хочу за него замуж"

 Запросто, если в женщине говорит ревность и обида. Страстное желание обладать, приправленное "механизмами" самозащиты от самой же себя, вполне может дать _"я тебя на себе женю, и точка"_.

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## Hanna

> Originally Posted by devochka  You should all come to Belgium! .   I've often wondered about Belgium. How do the Dutch and French speakers communicate? What's TV like, a choice between French and Dutch, subtitles?

 They don't communicate so much! LOL! Only in Brussels where both languages are equally strong. Other than that the country is split into two different language areas. Many of the French speakers don't bother to learn Dutch but most of the Dutch speakers know French. That's based on ppl I know, anyway. They have BE TV channels catering to both groups, plus they can watch TV of their neighbouring countries. Don't know about subtitles. This is a really sensitive issue in Belgium.

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## sperk

> Originally Posted by sperk        Originally Posted by devochka  You should all come to Belgium! .   I've often wondered about Belgium. How do the Dutch and French speakers communicate? What's TV like, a choice between French and Dutch, subtitles?   They don't communicate so much! LOL! Only in Brussels where both languages are equally strong. Other than that the country is split into two different language areas. Many of the French speakers don't bother to learn Dutch but most of the Dutch speakers know French. That's based on ppl I know, anyway. They have BE TV channels catering to both groups, plus they can watch TV of their neighbouring countries. Don't know about subtitles. This is a really sensitive issue in Belgium.

 Thanks, always wondered how a country could be split up like that. I guess it's like Quebec...notice, it's always the French causing trouble.  ::

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## Оля

> PS. А чего ты собственно так накинулась? Кто тебя укусил?

 Я не "накидывалась", и никто меня не кусал.   

> Ты считаешь, что Надя - образец для подражания?

 Нет, я так не считаю. Хотя по сравнению с Галей - да, пожалуй, образец. В ней есть то, что называется "интеллигентность". Интеллигентный человек никогда не скажет того-то, того-то и того-то и не поведет себя так-то и так-то. 
[quote=Звездочёт] 

> Я не понимаю, как это может быть - "он козел, он меня сто раз уже достал, но я хочу за него замуж"

 Запросто, если в женщине говорит ревность и обида. Страстное желание обладать, приправленное "механизмами" самозащиты от самой же себя, вполне может дать _"я тебя на себе женю, и точка"_.[/quote:lhd8rnvo]
Ну я имела в виду, что не понимаю, как это можно считать любовью, да еще сочувствовать таким женщинам, что им не удалось осуществить их намерение.  ::

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## Звездочёт

Ну, любовь ведь разная бывает. Греки, например, различали двух Афродит. И я, если честно, не знаю, как выделить какую-то одну любовь и назвать её "настоящей". Хотя с тобой тоже соглашусь: понять описываемых тобой женщин могу, но оправдать их -- нет.  ::

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## Crocodile

> Интеллигентный человек никогда не скажет того-то, того-то и того-то и не поведет себя так-то и так-то.

 Мне представляется, что поведение "чего не скажет и не сделает" немного говорит о личности, важнее то, что сделает и скажет. Например: "не курит, не пьёт, не бьёт" - это обязательно хороший человек? Поэтому частенько главные герои описаны как наблюдатели. Положительные черты читателю (зрителю) предлагается домыслить самому на свой вкус. Чего Надя не сделала мы знаем. А что же она сделала? Чем она себя проявила? Мало чем, честно говоря. Но, например, успела выгнать ночью на улицу, на мороз обоих ухажёров, когда они начали пререкаться. Не хотела ручки марать и разобраться? Да и обставить ситуацию тоже можно было как-нибудь поприличнее, поинтеллигентнее. А уж тон-то был ух какой сердитый... и уж никак не тёплый.   ::     

> Хотя с тобой тоже соглашусь: понять описываемых тобой женщин могу, но оправдать их -- нет.

 Дело не в оправдании. Оправдать можно что угодно.  
"Виновных нет, поверь, виновных нет:
Никто не совершает преступлений.
Берусь тебе любого оправдать"

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## Звездочёт

> Чего Надя не сделала мы знаем. А что же она сделала? Чем она себя проявила? Мало чем, честно говоря. Но, например, успела выгнать ночью на улицу, на мороз обоих ухажёров, когда они начали пререкаться.

 Раз уж тут начали обсуждать негативные стороны героев «Иронии судьбы», то можно вспомнить статью, которая ходит по инету: герои фильма глазами психоаналитика. Не скажу, что я разделяю его мнение: мне оно кажется чрезмерно тенденциозным (если честно, я вообще не перевариваю фрейдизм за эту характерную для него тенденциозность), однако ТАК негативно о героях, по-моему, ещё никто не отзывался.  http://www.livejournal.ru/themes/id/13080

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## Crocodile

> Не прошедшие подлинного эдипова конфликта инфанты пребывают в иллюзии своего всемогущества и заранее обеспеченной победы. [...] Этот бытовой вудуизм, характеризует подлинный ментальный уровень любимого героя. [...] Приемы социальной адаптации у них, так или иначе, связаны с педалированием своей убогости.

 Спасибо, Звездочёт!   ::   ::   ::

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## Звездочёт

Да статья вообще "блеск" в этом плане. Если не делать скидку на то, что многие слова -- исключительный фрейдизм (где всё про ЭТО), то текст становится ммм... забавным.

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## Crocodile

Я уже полчаса под столом лежу, от хохота не могу отдышаться.   ::   ::  Класс!!!

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## Crocodile

Из комментариев к полному тексту вышеуказанного опуса:  

> Мой миленок в огороде
> Третьи сутки хмурый бродит -
> Вырос хрен невиданно,
> Мил ему завидует! 
> На свидание к миленку
> Я без Фрейда не хожу,
> На гармошку, на трехрядку
> Я трехтомник положу. 
> Мине милый говорит:
> ...

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