# Forum About Russia Culture and History  Slavs Origins

## chukcha

I heard that there are two theories about the origins of slavic people: a normanist theory that is based on the Nestors chronicles and establishes the roots of Slavic people in Scandinavia and proto-Slavic theory which assumes that Slavic people are composed out of two peoples Venedes (proto-slavs) and slavs proper. The second theory is autochthonic in nature. I am more interested in the accounts on the second theory. I am curious if any of you guys have any interesting information relating to this topic.    ::

----------


## N

There are good books of very reputable Russian historian-archaeologist B.A.Rybakov (Б.А.Рыбаков) regard the topic. One of them a folio "Язычество древних славян" (Heathendom of ancient Slavs) - about the pre-Christian Slavic history and even prehistory (since paleolith). It's a pity my English is far far from good and I'm afraid writing something sensible about that in English is beyond my abilities - too many specific terms. 
The autochthonic theory considers archaeological levels of tshinecko-komarovskaya culture (term?) (1400-1300 B.C.), pshevorskaya and zarubinetskaya culture (300 B.C. - 300 A.D.), and culture of Praga-Korchack type (500-800 A.D.) as Slavic. All these archaeological cultures are in Oder, Vistula, and Dnieper river basins.

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

The only roots Russia has with Scandinavia is Rurik.

----------


## chukcha

thanks but i do know about the normanist theory and I am more interested in the proto-slavic.

----------


## N

AFAIK Normanist theory is about origin of Russian statehood not about Slavic origin.

----------


## chukcha

I belive that Nordic theory interprits the cultural and ethnic identity of Slavs. The Variagians who came down from Scandinavia got mixed with local tribes which created a present Slavic ethnicity or so the theory goes. So I guess it does talk about origins of slavs as an ethnic group and not only about the statehood.

----------


## N

There are no any notable trails of Scandinavian influence in Slavic folklore, folk-custom, mythology, legend, costume, housewares, housebuilding etc whatsoever. There were no that many Variagians to have an significant impact on peasant masses. They could influence the "ruling class" though but... I cannot see it. Just some mentions about them in Russian chronics where they figured as condottieres and merchants.

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

Well, N, that is why the Norman theory hasn't caught that well on. But the theory IS that the Normans gave Russia government, cohesion and culture approx when the Kieven state was born... (long before Rurik) This theory was created before the early history of southern Russia had been discovered, therefore, nowadays, there is little credence attached to this theory...

----------


## mp510

Vladimir the Great (Saint Vladimir), was a Scandanavian that converted to Christianity, went to Russia, kiled his brother that was a King out of Kiev, and assumed power. Then he went on to introduce Christianity to Russia.

----------


## Zhenya

We are still all from the same place originally!   ::

----------


## chukcha

Guys I did not post this thread to start a polemic discussion about Nordic theory.   ::   I was just wondering if you know any other scientifically based theories about the origins of Slavs.
 -N- thanks for the Rybakov book I will check it out. If you have any other sources, books or sites concerning the subject of Proto-Slavs please let me know. But once again I didn't post this thread to credit or discredit the Nordic theory. So please stop mentioning it   ::

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

Nordic theory! Nordic theory! Nordic theory!!!!!    ::

----------


## chukcha

good one, kalinka. Very mature   ::

----------


## DDT

Nordic theory!

----------


## chukcha

da...Durnoj primer zarazitelen   ::

----------


## FL

http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/english.html 
"Drevniaia Rus' i Velikaia Step' " 
"Old Russia and the Great Steppe". Gumilev's studies of the relationships between Russia and its neighbors, primarily nomads, in the 9th through the 14th centuries (1989). 
Annotation: If you can read in Russian, I highly suggest visiting Gumilevica. There you can find many"on-line books and a lot of articles by Lev Nikolayevich Gumiliov, as well as maps, links and all kinds of related materials."   On-line book:"Древняя Русь и Великая степь (Old Russia and the Great Steppe)"  
Завершающая книга третьей части "Степной трилогии" опубликованная в  конце 1989 г.. Книга посвящена одной из самых сложных и запутанных проблем отечественной истории: взаимоотношениям Древней Руси и ее соседей, главным образом - Хазарскому каганату и кочевников Великой степи.

----------


## FL

www.rustrana.ru Происхождение славян и русских

----------


## N

> "Old Russia and the Great Steppe". Gumilev's studies of the relationships between Russia and its neighbors, primarily nomads, in the 9th through the 14th centuries (1989).

 Ага, только уважаемый Лев Николаевич Гумилев был историософом, а не историком и писал в соответствующем жанре.

----------


## Welf

I d like to express my opinion. don't believe in Nordic theory. It was written in 18th century by 3 german guys, who had only one target - to weaken russian influence, at that time there was no any written Russian history, so that was a good idea to put down Russia in such way. And i doubt that it is possible to write smth authentic being in germany. Great russian scientist Lomonosov said that they had killed all russianness in their work and made russians the poorest people ever without their oun culture. 
and one more thing....
Rurik wasn't from Scandinavia, he was Baltic slav, half slavic, half baltic, and as we know baltic languages look slavic(some scientists combine slavic and baltic languages in one language groupe), so we can consider him almost slavic person.

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

He was baltic!? All my sources, books, etc. say he was a viking/ varangian. Can you provide more information?

----------


## Zhenya

I think we all came from one place...and then spread around the world, nameing things this and that...  ::

----------


## Welf

> He was baltic!? All my sources, books, etc. say he was a viking/ varangian. Can you provide more information?

 For Russian people there was no big difference between balts and vikings i guess, they all came from one side, so what s the difference? especially if all foreigners were called "немцы". I can tell you that there 2 approaches to history, Norman theory, is kind of anti-russian, slavic/baltic is a patriotic one....   

> Начиная еще с ломоносовских времен проблема была политизирована. Боролись два течения: норманисты и антинорманисты. Первые утверждали, что Киевскую Русь основали норманы (династия Рюриковичей), вторые — ни в коем случае (Рюрик — славянин или прибалт).

 Rurik wasnt the founder of Russia, there s such an opinion that he was working in Russia, he had a "contract", but then he could take the power.  

> Рюрик действительно был позван на Русь, но не княжить и владеть, а на службу. С ним якобы был заключён договор, согласно которому он с дружиной должен был служить местному обществу. Но, воспользовавшись временными неустройствами в этом самом обществе, Рюрик сумел захватить власть

----------


## N

А мне по-барабану кто был Рюрик. 
У нас Катюха была немкой, Виссарионыч - грузином, а мы от того не онемечились и не огрузинились. Наоборот - они обрусели, и стали больше русскими чем иные чистокровные.

----------


## Rtyom

По-моему, сейчас вообще разницы никакой в этом нет.

----------


## Welf

мдя...такое наплевательское отношение к истории родной страны, (считай к стране в целом) сильно удручает...мельчает наш народ..... 
Вот в одном форуме бросилось в глаза такое сообщение. Мексиканцы спросили у русской об истории русского языка. Та начала рассказывать об общеславянском языке, о племенах, о Крещении Руси. Мексиканцы решили, что женщина их обманывает, т.к. твердо были убеждены, что Рюрик немец, и что русский язык точно почти как немецкий......

----------


## Scorpio

> I heard that there are two theories about the origins of slavic people: a normanist theory that is based on the Nestors chronicles and establishes the roots of Slavic people in Scandinavia and proto-Slavic theory which assumes that Slavic people are composed out of two peoples Venedes (proto-slavs) and slavs proper. The second theory is autochthonic in nature. I am more interested in the accounts on the second theory. I am curious if any of you guys have any interesting information relating to this topic.

 Normanist theory explains not "origins of slavic people", but origins of *Russian state* (there's a lot of slavic peoples beyond Russia, remember?)
Anyway, this theory is a myth. 
"Venedes" were only "proto-slavs"? And who were "vyatichi", "krivitchi", "drevlyane", etc., etc.?

----------


## FL

Любопытный ресурс по истории. Классики ХIХ века.
books on-line  http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/history/ 
Материалы русской истории
Основные материалы для изучения русской истории
Н.М. Карамзин. История государства Российского 
В.О. Ключевский. Курс русской истории 
Н.И. Костомаров. Русская история в жизнеописаниях ее главнейших деятелей 
С.М. Соловьев. История России с древнейших времен 
В.Н. Татищев. История Российская 
м. Макарий. История Русской церкви 
С.Ф. Платонов. Полный курс лекций по русской истории 
      ... и другие материалы

----------


## charu

So we have ended the beautiful topic without any significant output.
Oh, How I was looking forward to knowing something interesting about Russia!
By the way, do all scholarly discussions end up like this!?

----------


## mp510

> So we have ended the beautiful topic without any significant output.
> Oh, How I was looking forward to knowing something interesting about Russia!
> By the way, do all scholarly discussions end up like this!?

 Could a scholarly discussion have ended any other way?!  ::

----------


## chukcha

who said the topic was over?

----------


## chukcha

A question: whats "хетт" in english?

----------


## Rtyom

> A question: whats "хетт" in english?

 a Hittite.

----------


## chukcha

thanks

----------


## chukcha

I found a very original theory that aperently Russians might be offsprings of etruscans. It seems that 80% of Slovenians and Bosnians (only those two example nations are given due to extensive genetic research) share same DNA patterns with etruscans. What do you guys think? Have anyone heard pros or cons for this theory?

----------


## FL

Форум "Центральноазиатского исторического сервера"  http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?act=idx 
Topic - "Этрусски - праславяне!" http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=300&st=0

----------


## chukcha

Wow, talking about far fetched fantasies. I have nothing against patriotism but some people are loosing their mind. I had good laugh though. The thing is Etruscans MAYBE "related" to Slavs just like all the nations in the world have a single common ancestor but equating Slavs to Etruscans... priceless :: 
One more interesting piece of info I came across is the Book of Veles. Although there is much controversy from what I've read it sound pretty legit.

----------


## Jeff

I also don't understand what the Etruscans and the Balkan peoples have to do with the origin of the Slavs, since the homeland of the Slavs' ancestors isn't anywhere near Slovenia or Bosnia and the Slavic countries of the Balkan peninsula were actually the last to be settled by the Slavs. 
More clearly revealed by such a hypothesis are the lack of critical standards applied to "trendy" technologies such as genetics and the compulsion of "individual" researchers in capitalist societies to promote their own books, lectures etc. by passing off flagrant distortions as facts. 
The simple truth is that the ancestors of the Slavs occupied the steppe lands of Ukraine and Russia no later than 2900 BC and probably much earlier--most likely having advanced northward at about 8000-7500 BC, during and soon after the end of the terminal Pleistocene ice age.

----------


## DDT

> . 
> The simple truth is that .

 The truth?? You mean someones best guess don't you because no one knows what the  actual truth is.

----------


## Греческо

Do Slavs have any origin from Scythians?

----------


## FL

> Do Slavs have any origin from Scythians?

 «Да - скифы мы, да - азиаты мы, с раскосыми и жадными глазами».
(А. Блок) 
Правда, Блок был еще тот историк. Скифы относились к европеоидам и вряд ли могли иметь "раскосые глаза".  http://slovari.yandex.ru/art.xml?art=bs ... %26isu%3D2 
"
Скифы(греч. Skythai), общее название основного населения Северного Причерноморья, состоявшего из родственных племён североиранской языковой группы индоевропейской семьи. С. были родственны савроматам (сарматам), массагетам и сакам. Одни исследователи считают их потомками носителей срубной культуры эпохи бронзы, продвигавшихся начиная с 14 в. до н. э. с территории Поволжья на З. Другие полагают, что основное ядро С. вышло из Средней Азии или Сибири и смешалось с населением Северного Причерноморья. Начало истории С. отмечено их войной с киммерийцами, которые были вытеснены С. из Северного Причерноморья к 7 в. до н. э., и походами С. в Малую Азию. С 70-х гг. 7 в. до н. э. С. завоевали Мидию, Сирию, Палестину и господствовали в Передней Азии, но в начале 6 в. до н. э. были вытеснены оттуда мидийцами. Следы пребывания С. отмечены и на Северном Кавказе. Основная территория расселения С. - степи между нижним течением Дуная и Дона, включая степной Крым и районы, прилегающие к Северному Причерноморью. Северная граница неясна. С. разделялись на несколько крупных племён. 
"
и т.д.

----------


## RusskiSlav

> I heard that there are two theories about the origins of slavic people: a normanist theory that is based on the Nestors chronicles and establishes the roots of Slavic people in Scandinavia

 There were originally a group of people living in the Urals who migrated to what is now Finland and established the Finnish population. I don't know if they were in any way related to the Slavs in Russia or Scandinavia, but I thought I'd just throw it out there  ::

----------


## Slavophile

Hmm, that theory on Etruscans sounds dangerously close to the Illyrian theory of origin which claimed Croats were descended from the Illyrian people of the Adriatic, perhaps backed up by the Dalmatian romance language? (or was this dying language a Roman/Medieval product)
Regardless, it has as much validity as the polish aristocracy believing they were decended from Samaritans...a way to be non-slavic, or have greater traceable roots. 
Well, I have here Bohyslav Chropovsky's The Slavs: their significance, political and cultural history, and although I fear the findings of a book published in 1989 in Czechoslovakia might be too baised for some sort of Moravia origin..  ::   
That said, it mentions a number of theories for the original Slavic homeland (and perhaps the people that would become the Slavs...or at least, a point on their migration that we have evidence of...)
The Vistula-Dnieper theory where the Slavs were on the river basin of the Dnieper some time between 1500BC to 500AD. (blame the length of time on scholarly arguement)
The Oder-Dnieper theory is another one, though most people agree to an early middle age time settlement.
The Dnieper theory holds Slavs existed on the Dnieper basin from earlier then 5th century BC.
The Oder-Vistula theory has their home originally between the Oder and Bug, around sixth to fifth century BC. (claims Germans pushed them out)
Chropovsky here seems most excited, however, with then Danubian theory.
He then proceeds to explain that the Balto-Slavs, or Ancient Slavs probably existed on the above territories by the end of the second millennium BC, until language divisions grew to split the Baltics off from the Slavic language, which was developed in the South.

----------


## detail

поправьте линки (напишите короткий текст), а то таблицу распирает сильно, приходится по горизонтали мотать.

----------


## Scorpio

> Originally Posted by Греческо  Do Slavs have any origin from Scythians?   «Да - скифы мы, да - азиаты мы, с раскосыми и жадными глазами».
> (А. Блок) 
> Правда, Блок был еще тот историк. Скифы относились к европеоидам и вряд ли могли иметь "раскосые глаза".  http://slovari.yandex.ru/art.xml?art=bs ... %26isu%3D2 
> "
> Скифы(греч. Skythai), общее название основного населения Северного Причерноморья, состоявшего из родственных племён североиранской языковой группы индоевропейской семьи. С. были родственны савроматам (сарматам), массагетам и сакам. Одни исследователи считают их потомками носителей срубной культуры эпохи бронзы, продвигавшихся начиная с 14 в. до н. э. с территории Поволжья на З. Другие полагают, что основное ядро С. вышло из Средней Азии или Сибири и смешалось с населением Северного Причерноморья. Начало истории С. отмечено их войной с киммерийцами, которые были вытеснены С. из Северного Причерноморья к 7 в. до н. э., и походами С. в Малую Азию. С 70-х гг. 7 в. до н. э. С. завоевали Мидию, Сирию, Палестину и господствовали в Передней Азии, но в начале 6 в. до н. э. были вытеснены оттуда мидийцами. Следы пребывания С. отмечены и на Северном Кавказе. Основная территория расселения С. - степи между нижним течением Дуная и Дона, включая степной Крым и районы, прилегающие к Северному Причерноморью. Северная граница неясна. С. разделялись на несколько крупных племён. 
> "
> и т.д.

 Насколько я понимаю, ближайшие родственники скифов (уцелевшие) -- это осетины. Со славянскими народами родство у них, мягко говоря, отдаленное.

----------

