# Forum About Russia Society  A question about Russian dating practices and "going dutch"

## LightandBreezy

Hi all, 
I'm sorry if this was already asked, but couldn't find any thread on it.  My question is how is the concept of a man paying for a woman's dates in Russia viewed?  Is it the norm for couples to split the bill, or do men prefer to pay for entertainment?  
I ask, because my ex-boyfriend was Russian. He came to America when he was a teenager, but he expressed hostility towards the idea of a man paying for a woman.  My ex was angry at my mom for raising me to believe in traditional courting practices.   My female friend from Russia told me, *"If your ex were to move back to Russia, most women wouldn't want to date him." * I wanted to confirm on this forum if it's true that men in Russia are raised to be chivalrous.  
Even though I'm raised in America, my parents also come from an immigrant country where going dutch is unheard of. The ability for a man to provide and taking care of his woman is still prized in my family's culture. A man paying for a date isn't about letting the woman steal his money, but it's about treating her as special and demonstrating that he will make a good husband.  Even outside of dating, people in my culture offer to pay for their friends or houseguests as an act of hospitality and respect.    
In modern American culture, you will find a lot of men and women that also criticize the concept of a man paying.  It's acceptable to have sex on the first few dates with someone you barely know, but god forbid that you're a woman that likes to be paid for.  You're automatically considered a gold-digger, you don't care about the man or you're being unfair.   But, my parents didn't grow up in the feminist era where this "dutch" idea was created.   
Do these values exist in Russian culture too? Maybe my ex was too influenced by American culture? He said he doesn't like to date Russian women, because he thinks they "clean their men out."  I disagree, because I think it's just how some cultures raise their women.

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## alexsms

> Hi all, 
> I've also read articles on how Russian men open the doors for women, wipe a dirty seat in the bar clean, give a woman their jacket, or carry someone across the street?

 these are stereotypes, not exactly true... some men do it if it's appropriate, some not, depends on people...depends on relations between man and woman.

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## LightandBreezy

> these are stereotypes, not exactly true... some men do it if it's appropriate, some not, depends on people...depends on relations between man and woman.

 
Hi, this is a double post and I'm not sure how to delete the thread. 
Could you answer in the other thread where I provide a more detailed description?

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## alexsms

LightandBreezy, you say: _A man paying for a date isn't about letting the woman steal his money,  but it's about treating her as special and demonstrating that he will  make a good husband._ 
It looks like a cultural thing to me. In western thinking (in Russian culture, too) dating doesn't automatically mean they are going to marry. (Maybe it does in your culture).  
I am not a social scientist, but i'll try to suggest some thoughts on the matter... 
Much depends on degree of relations. If they are really a 'couple', real boy/girlfriend, not just first date, or acquaintances, the chances that the guy will pay are higher. But this is not a strict rule, some couples are flexible, sometimes they can spontaneously decide to go Dutch (doesn't mean they always do it), if they have known each other for a long time a girl could pay (might happen if the guy forgot the money when they meet casually). So, it seems stiff rules don't exist here in Russia (at least it looks so where I live), but generally and in most cases a guy pays, which psychologically is a sign, first of all, that he is capable of earning money and able to provide, take care, etc., and it is expected that the guy should pay due to this psychological interpretation.  
Again, much depends on degree of relation, or on how clear the relation is.

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## LightandBreezy

> LightandBreezy, you say: _A man paying for a date isn't about letting the woman steal his money,  but it's about treating her as special and demonstrating that he will  make a good husband._ 
> It looks like a cultural thing to me. In western thinking (in Russian culture, too) dating doesn't automatically mean they are going to marry. (Maybe it does in your culture).  
> I am not a social scientist, but i'll try to suggest some thoughts on the matter... 
> Much depends on degree of relations. If they are really a 'couple', real boy/girlfriend, not just first date, or acquaintances, the chances that the guy will pay are higher. But this is not a strict rule, some couples are flexible, sometimes they can spontaneously decide to go Dutch (doesn't mean they always do it), if they have known each other for a long time a girl could pay (might happen if the guy forgot the money when they meet casually). So, it seems stiff rules don't exist here in Russia (at least it looks so where I live), but generally and in most cases a guy pays, which psychologically is a sign, first of all, that he is capable of earning money and able to provide, take care, etc., and it is expected that the guy should pay due to this psychological interpretation.  
> Again, much depends on degree of relation, or on how clear the relation is.

 
Of course, you can't assume that all people are exactly the same.  There are some couples in my culture that don't agree with what I just said either. From what I gather in your post, it's socially acceptable for a man to pay and seems to constitute the majority? 
I know that dating doesn't always have to lead to marriage, but most people (regardless of if they're Western or not) I've met seem to crave meeting the right person eventually.  How you treat someone can be indicative of whether you're serious about them or not. I hear a lot of complaints in America about how it's so hard to find a man that wants to commit.  I believe that men do want to commit, but only to a woman that they deem worthy of commitment.  Just like women are evaluating how a man acts on dates, men are doing the same.  
Even in American culture, the person who asks for the date is supposed to be paying. If a woman asks a man out, she's expected to pay. That's understandable.   A woman offering to go dutch on the first date is nicely telling the man "I'm not interested and let's just be friends."     On a man's birthday, I will also offer to pay as a treat.  It's his birthday, and he shouldn't have to pay.  
Thanks for your reply.  ::

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## Deborski

I think that 20 years ago or so, that was the case with a lot of Russian guys, and some of the older guys (from the Jurassic era, like me lol) may still prefer to pay for a woman's dinner, open doors for her and other chivalrous niceties.  But the younger guys are becoming more accustomed to women paying for their meals.  I think a lot really depends on the individual and what his or her beliefs are, just like in the US.  There are guys here who still prefer to pay the bill. 
As for me, I like that gentlemanly behavior - as long as there are no strings attached, like "well I bought dinner so now you owe me sex".  You can kind of get a sense about a guy usually.  If I think all he wants to do is get in my pants, I will insist on paying for my own dinner.

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## BappaBa

> generally and in most cases a guy pays

 +500

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## Hanna

This is an interesting question to debate ....  
I think that Russians are among the most conservative Europeans in this matter, together perhaps with French and Italians and a few others.  
Whether this is a good or bad thing is down to personal preference, I guess - and there are surely exceptions to every rule!  
If the guy happens to be very short of money, and the girl is not... then it makes a lot more sense to go "dutch"!  
But it would be a bit of a romance killer, I think!

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## Doomer

> But it would be a bit of a romance killer, I think!

 exactly!

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## LightandBreezy

It's funny, because all of these American dating books are coming out and telling today's woman why they are so miserable in their dating lives. One of the things is *"Don't pay your own way. Let a man be a man and treat you like a lady."*  These dating authors were arguing that commitment phobia and men not wanting to get married didn't exist the 1950's, but it all came after the feminist movement.    
I have very good male American friends and my female friends' husbands that say they derive great pleasure in providing for the woman they love, even if they know she's capable of paying her own way. When I look at married couples that are really happy, the wife tells me that she rarely if ever had to go dutch.     
I'm glad to see that some people here see my point of view. My ex said that "most men wouldn't want to date you if you think like that", but he was also the first boyfriend to bring up this topic.  My previous ex-boyfriends from my culture never once asked me to go dutch.  They would even get offended when I offered to pay.  
During our first few months of dating, that was when he made the "Russian women are golddigging h*s" comment. I chose to ignore it, but that was a red flag on how he viewed women and money.

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## Anixx

In fact the women in Russia are very greedy and this trend grows. 
If some tens years ago it was normal for men to pay for women and women usually payed back honestly (they did not accept gifts from people they did not like). Also there was a tradition that they could make some dishes by themselves as a pay back for a restaurant which was paid for by a man etc. 
But now the situation changed. There appeared a lot of women who just want to get money from men even without giving anything in return. Some of them ask men to pay for entertainment, and then they just disappear without a trace in search for new men. Many want a paid restaurant bill as a pre-condition for acquaintance. They call such men with Russian word "лох" which means "fool who is easy to trick". 
Still others find permanent "sponsors" (the term originated from the first beauty contests where the girls had to have a "sponsor" to participate, and the "sponsors" usually were rich businessmen who payed for sex with those girls). So they just want to live at expense of such men and suck money from them. Some tell so openly. 
This triggered the back-reaction from men so that many of them are afraid of becoming "лох".

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## Anixx

> These dating authors were arguing that commitment phobia and men not wanting to get married didn't exist the 1950's, but it all came after the feminist movement.

 In Russia there is a strong women sexist lobby. Those women do not call themselves "feminists" but actually they employ some of the feminist arsenal. For example they want equal (by number) representation of women in
politics and work (i.e. sex quotas) while do not want the removal of laws discriminatory against men such as mandatory army service, havier criminal punishment and later pension. 
Many of the policies invented by such women over time made men's life very difficult. On average Russian men live about 15 years less than women, this is the greatest difference in the world. Combined with the fact that men go to pension five years later, an average woman receives pension for 13 years while an average man for only -2 years, that is most men do not reach the pension age. 
Many of the measures "to protect women" actually destroyed the marriage. This is because a man receives so many obligations with marriage that any reasonable man will not agree to marry. But in 1996 a new "innovation" was made into the law: now a love affair and a marriage actually became equated. In case of a child born, the woman can completely deprive the father of any contacts with the kid while receives alimony from the father as high as up to 50% of any his income (including selling realty he had before) for 18 years (this is to be increased to 23 soon). By contrast the state gives "mother's capital" to any mother who bore a child, but the father has no right to affect its use. This very much negatively affects the demographics: given such laws many men are afraid of bearing kids and more and more men choose not to risk and to go to Thailand for sex. Some even opt to pay to a surrogate mother so to have the rights to rise their children without a mother as did a popular pop singer Filipp Kirkorov.

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## diogen_

> In Russia there is a strong women sexist lobby...

 Here is their official anthem  ::    
Текст песни «Бабы-стервы» 
Что-то милый на меня ты больно сердишься,
Ну подумаешь монашкой не жила
В этом мире, как умеешь так и вертишься,
И не думай, что всегда тебя ждала 
И не надо меня мучить подозреньями, 
Ты мне лучше, что красивое скажи
И давай с тобой устроим день рождения
Моей маленькой, но все-таки души 
[Припев]
Все мы бабы-стервы
Милый бог с тобой
Каждый кто не первый,
Тот у нас второй 
[Припев]  
Но уж если мы с тобою повстречалися,
Я на прошлом на своем поставлю крест
И хочу, чтоб в церкви мы с тобой венчалися,
И чтоб я была не худшей из невест 
И не надо меня мучить подозреньями,
Ты мне лучше, что красивое скажи
И давай с тобой устроим день рождения
Моей маленькой, но все-таки души 
[Припев] 
[Припев] 
[Здесь соло]
[Припев] 
[Припев] 
Каждый кто не первый,
Тот у нас второй

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## Marcus

> more men choose not to risk and to go to Thailand for sex.

 ? Those who do not go to Thailand do not have sex? To risk in what way?  

> This very much negatively affects the demographics:

 Prove.

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## Hanna

I hope this terrible "Russian Wife" madness could stop - I think it's degrading for women in general and Russia as a country!  
I saw some commenting about this issue in a Swedish paper. The men were being sexist in a way that they would only dare to do anonymously online... 
They were essentially saying _"well Thai women are better than Russian women because the Russian women are so materialistic and want stuff and expect to be treated like a lady. Thai women are more submissive and accepting"._  
If the Russian women are AT LEAST demanding that any foreign man they are dealing with treats them like a lady, then GOOD FOR THEM!!!
I think they are a bit sad if these men have to go abroad to find a woman who will look up to them and accept them! Perhaps they should exercise a bit of self criticism instead of worrying about women being too feminist, materialistic or demanding.  
I can't help but wonder what kind of situation these Russian women are in, that they are prepared to marry a foreigner that they couldn't possibly know well. I wonder how many such marriages actually survives 3 years or whatever the magical line is.....   
In Kiev last summer I saw a girl of about 18 sit at a cafe and talk to a big American twice her age and size - clearly about dating related stuff.. She could hardly string a comprehensible sentence together in English, and he clearly wasn't paying much attention to what she was trying to say anyway.  If that's the beginning of a "serious relationship" it would just fall to pieces once they actually are able to communicate....!  If it was something else, taking place in broad daylight at a cafe then it is even more shocking.

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## Deborski

There are good women and bad women in every country, just as there are good and bad men.  To judge an entire group based on the action of a few "rotten apples" is ignorant and sad. 
I've been hurt terribly by some men, but I do not hold it against all men.  I have also been treated wonderfully by men.  It is completely an individual thing. 
I get sick of hearing about how "all Russian women are gold-diggers" etc.  I also hear that "all Russian men are drunken chauvinists who beat their girlfriends" but I choose not to believe it. 
You have to see each person for who they are, and not pile all of your bad experiences on them!  No one deserves to suffer for the bad behavior of someone they don't know and never met.  Every time you meet someone new, start with a clean slate! 
As for "going to Thailand where the women are nice."  Come on, that's a cop out.  Men go to Thailand to have sex without having to make any commitment.  In Thailand they have sex with little girls who haven't even turned 18 yet.  And there is lots of RISK, too.  But if some guys would rather go to Thailand and screw underage prostitutes and get diseases and they consider that less "risky" than dating and getting to know a woman as a person, then that says a lot about their character.  Or lack of it.

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## Eric C.

As for the bill issue, "why don't you guys stop acting like a couple of pussies and go at the same time?" (c)  ::  
That's to say, why wouldn't each one just pay their part of the bill? And no arguments whatsoever. =)

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## Eric C.

> In Kiev last summer I saw a girl of about 18 sit at a cafe and talk to a big American twice her age and size - clearly about dating related stuff.. She could hardly string a comprehensible sentence together in English, and he clearly wasn't paying much attention to what she was trying to say anyway. If that's the beginning of a "serious relationship" it would just fall to pieces once they actually are able to communicate....! If it was something else, taking place in broad daylight at a cafe then it is even more shocking.

 Did you tell this to them?

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## Anixx

> I saw some commenting about this issue in a Swedish paper. The men were being sexist in a way that they would only dare to do anonymously online...
> They were essentially saying "well Thai women are better than Russian women because the Russian women are so materialistic and want stuff and expect to be treated like a lady. Thai women are more submissive and accepting".

 This is because Thai women are not as corrupted as Russian women yet. But I expect this not to last long...   

> In Kiev last summer I saw a girl of about 18 sit at a cafe and talk to a big American twice her age and size - clearly about dating related stuff.. She could hardly string a comprehensible sentence together in English, and he clearly wasn't paying much attention to what she was trying to say anyway. If that's the beginning of a "serious relationship" it would just fall to pieces once they actually are able to communicate....! If it was something else, taking place in broad daylight at a cafe then it is even more shocking.

 I regularly see girls trying to catch the attention of blacks and Arabs near Russian Kremlin in Moscow. They would not even look at me. They also very much love the people from the Caucasus (Dagestan, Azerbaidjan etc).
It is indeed surprizing because one cannot expect those people to have more money than an average Russian.  
In Soviet times you could get foreign currency from Westerners or move to their country, but what makes now thousands of Russian women to marry Africans, Turks, Arabs etc - I have no idea. Some even go to Egypt or Turkey to get fucked (similarly to how men go to Thailand, Brasil or Philipines). There is a lot of Russian wives in Syria: there are even communities of Russian wives to Syrians in the Internet. And this is not only Russian phenomenon. I have read that in Israel there is a lot of Jewish women who marry Palestinians (despite Israel has serious shortage of women), while there is no opposite process: there are virtually no Palestinian wives to Jews. 
I only can explain it with an assertion that women prefer people with lower IQ which makes a man to appear more primatic.

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## Anixx

> In Thailand they have sex with little girls who haven't even turned 18 yet.  And there is lots of RISK, too.  But if some guys would rather go to Thailand and screw underage prostitutes and get diseases and they consider that less "risky" than dating and getting to know a woman as a person, then that says a lot about their character.  Or lack of it.

 Well, many women after 18 are much less attractive than before. And what is more important they did not yet learnt being mercantile.    

> than dating and getting to know a woman as a person, then that says a lot about their character.

 If you mean dating agencies, it is a completely wrong way. I for once looked into a dating database of a dating agency - there were only very ugly women, sometimes with children, most after 30s. They also want a rich, lavish man. 
And as I said they mostly want to marry while Russian laws has made the marriage a complete hell for a man. No normal man who knows the laws will agree to marry following such rules (also take into account that 83% of all divorces in Russia happen due to the women's initiative and a man looses all in a divorce, even his children).

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## Eric C.

> Well, many women after 18 are much less attractive than before. And what is more important they did not yet learnt being mercantile.

 Once they turn 18 they right away lose their attractiveness, right?
Besides, it's illegal to have any sort of sexual intercourse with ppl under 18.   

> And as I said they mostly want to marry while Russian laws has made the marriage a complete hell for a man. No normal man who knows the laws will agree to marry following such rules (also take into account that 83% of all divorces in Russia happen due to the women's initiative and a man looses all in a divorce, even his children).

 Two words man - marital agreement.

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## Anixx

> Once they turn 18 they right away lose their attractiveness, right?

 Well there is only a minority of women who becomes better with age.   

> Besides, it's illegal to have any sort of sexual intercourse with ppl under 18.

 In the USA - may be. In Russia pro-US activists also want to rise age of consent so it to be like in the US.    

> Two words man - marital agreement.

 I do not know how it is in the US but here you cannot negotiate anything in marital agreement.
You cannot negotiate that the kid will remain with you, you cannot negotiate your right to meet with him, you cannot negotiate alimony, you cannot negotiate abortion rights,
you cannot evict your former wife from your home if there are children, you cannot negotiate the usage of the state financial bonus for childbirth (only the woman can use it as she wishes).

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## Anixx

There is an interesting sci-fi novel by Viktor Pelevin "Snuff" who describes an anti-utopian post-apocaliptic society where an English-speaking society "Big Byz" similar to the US flyes in an artificial island over a Slavic speaking Urkaine.
The Big Byz has age of consent of 46 years and there is a debate to increase it to 48 (while the life duration remains the same as now). And many people fuck robotic dolls because of that. There is even an LGBT society of doll-fuckers. And the Big Byz tries to impose that practice on the Urkaine (they even cover in media those of Urkaine who fucks potatoe sacs as sex minorities). There are other interesting things in the book. For example, Big Byz frequently bombs Urkaine under ridiculous pretexts and the elites and dissidents of Urkaine support that. The very name "snuff" if referred to such staged "wars" in whick real people(soldiers) of Urkaine die while in the Biz Byz the wars are used as an entertainment due to their overwhelming technical superiority and absence of any casualties. 
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.N.U.F.F.

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## alexsms

> I do not know how it is in the US but here you cannot negotiate anything in marital agreement.
> You cannot negotiate that the kid will remain with you, you cannot negotiate your right to meet with him, you cannot negotiate alimony, you cannot negotiate abortion rights,
> you cannot evict your former wife from your home if there are children, you cannot negotiate the usage of the state financial bonus for childbirth (only the woman can use it as she wishes).

 As far as I know, Family Code (Семейный кодекс) provides for arrangement of everything that concerns property before marriage (this would be a marital agreement, so in theory it is possible to decide how property would be divided in case of divorce even before marriage), but I don't remember what it says about children.

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## Hanna

Well I happened to pick up a Finnish paper recently and there was a story of the phenomenon of Finnish women marrying Russian men, because they were "more romantic" (than Finnish men... this is probably true!)  But some relationships are a Finnish man and a Russian woman.  
The problem was that many such marriages ended in divorce, AFTER the couple already had a child. And then, in some situations there was trouble because the Russia and Finland have some rather conflicting laws regarding guardianship of children in case of a divorce.  
There have been some dramatic cases covered in media whereby one or the other parent snatched the child and crossed the border, and the other parent powerless to do anything.  So tragic - I just pity the children in such relationships.

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## Marcus

> Besides, it's illegal to have any sort of sexual intercourse with ppl under 18.

 В России, по-моему, в 16 лет уже можно соглашаться на секс.

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## Deborski

> Well, many women after 18 are much less attractive than before. And what is more important they did not yet learnt being mercantile.

 Wow, Anixx.  That says a lot about you.  I'm 46.  Guess that makes me one ugly old hag!!!  Hahaha!  I know men - very good men, intelligent and strong men - who find older women far more appealing than little girls. We are better conversationalists, we have better personalities, and we know what we want in life.  A secure man finds that attractive. 
An insecure man, on the other hand, a man who only likes young girls, just wants someone with no opinions and no power, so that he can have everything his way.  Such men do not even think of women as people, but as toys that can be bought and paid for.   
As for men who screw little girls, such men are child molesters.   They care about only one thing:  Their own pleasure.  At the expense of everyone else.  Even at the expense of a little child, whose whole life is still ahead of her. 
I am so deeply sad that such people exist.   
Perhaps you experience women as "gold diggers" more because of your own attitudes, rather than reality.  I think a little introspection would help you a great deal.  And maybe a psychologist.

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## Anixx

> Wow, Anixx. That says a lot about you. I'm 46. Guess that makes me one ugly old hag!!! Hahaha! I know men - very good men, intelligent and strong men - who find older women far more appealing than little girls. We are better conversationalists, we have better personalities, and we know what we want in life. A secure man finds that attractive.

 No, I do not find 46 year women more appealing than 18 years old. If I want conversationists, I can meet with friends. With age women become psychologically more like men. And what I like in women is their difference from men, not the likelyness.   

> just wants someone with no opinions and no power,

 Why you decided so? I want younger beauty, natural, non-corrupted behavior, joyfullness.
And besides the younger girlfriend you have the better the opportunity to educate her as you wishes. A young girl is like white paper, without bugs in the brain.   

> As for men who screw little girls, such men are child molesters. They care about only one thing: Their own pleasure. At the expense of everyone else. Even at the expense of a little child, whose whole life is still ahead of her.

 LOL. People who prefers young girls are not child molesters. It is normal to love youth and beauty. I know that in America you are educated that loving youth is perversion.

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## Deborski

> No, I do not find 46 year women more appealing than 18 years old. If I want conversationists, I can meet with friends. With age women become psychologically more like men. And what I like in women is their difference from men, not the likelyness.

 You know, that actually made me laugh.  You didn't need to confirm how you feel about older women, I could have predicted you would say something exactly as asinine as this!  We become more like men with age?  Wow.  No one has ever told me that I "looka like a man."  In fact, the older I've gotten, the more men I find are attracted to me!  And as of yet, I have not grown a penis or a beard!  
Sorry that doesn't fit in with your little preconceived notion of the world, where all women are supposed to be your personal sex slaves.  But for many people, it's reality,  and you are missing out on some of the finer things in life with your shallow, black and white mindset.  
My words:  

> just wants someone with no opinions and no power,

 Your words:  

> And besides the younger girlfriend you have the better the opportunity to educate her as you wishes. A young girl is like white paper, without bugs in the brain.

 They mean pretty much the same thing.  You don't want a relationship with a person.  You want someone you can control.  And as soon as she gets "too old" or "wears out" you'll just replace her with a younger model.  No need to explain yourself further.  I know your type all too well and let's just say that if I generalized ALL men and imagined them as you, I would probably have to become a lesbian. 
I feel sorry for people like you.  Obviously you care nothing for the girls.  It's all about you, your needs, your ego.  I feel badly for all the girls you have already hurt, especially if you really think there is nothing wrong with screwing little, underage girls! 
Someday perhaps you will have a sweet little daughter, and some older guy will screw her.  Maybe then you will understand, but I doubt it. 
PS:  I hope you get arrested or that someone reports you before another little girl is hurt by you.

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## Anixx

> In fact, the older I've gotten, the more men I find are attracted to me!

 In that case you're an exception.   

> where all women are supposed to be your personal sex slaves.

 I think this is an insult. Where I wrote such things?    

> I know your type all too well and let's just say that if I generalized ALL men and imagined them as you, I would probably have to become a lesbian.

 LOL. ALL men like younger women. Just as most women like older men. Feminists want to prohibit relations with younger women (which are more attractive) so to gain more attention themselves.   

> I feel badly for all the girls you have already hurt, especially if you really think there is nothing wrong with screwing little, underage girls!

 Why do you think I hurt anybody? Why do you assert that men have no right to love younger women? Why do you think it hurts them?   

> Someday perhaps you will have a sweet little daughter, and some older guy will screw her.

 You even do not know my age.   

> Maybe then you will understand, but I doubt it.

 I wish you guard your daughters of all men. As well as possible.
After all they are your property, right?   

> PS: I hope you get arrested or that someone reports you before another little girl is hurt by you.

 You think men should be arrested for loving women? It is a crime? This says in itself about American culture: normal love is crime, only lesbian love is good.

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## Deborski

> LOL. ALL men like younger women. Just as most women like older men. Feminists want to prohibit relations with younger women (which are more attractive) so to gain more attention themselves.

 Wow.  And how do you know this?  Did you talk with ALL the men and ALL the women?  I think that the woman-hating men you hang around filled your head with this kind of nonsense.     

> You think men should be arrested for loving women? It is a crime? This says in itself about American culture: normal love is crime, only lesbian love is good.

 Do not twist my words.  I said that men should be arrested for using underage girls for sex.   There is no "love" in that.

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## Anixx

> Wow. And how do you know this? Did you talk with ALL the men and ALL the women?

 This is just typical. In most marriages the men are elder than women - that's just statistics. Girls start to engage in relations earlier than boys. As I remember by 15 years most girls already had boyfriends and had tried all kinds of sex, were going to night clubs while for me all this stuff was like another planet.   

> Do not twist my words. I said that men should be arrested for using underage girls for sex. There is no "love" in that.

 You said you want me to be arrested. This is what you said. For what by the way? 
Anyway I wonder why you want arrested people who did nothing wrong to you. 
Of course you may feel strong about your own children but bear in mind that not all parents experience the same feelings as you do. Many allow their children sexual freedom or encourage them to find a boyfriend from early age, 13 or 14.    

> Do not twist my words. I said that men should be arrested for using underage girls for sex.

 "Underage" differs from country to country, in the US the consent age is highest in the world and they are trying to impose it on the rest, coupled with other feminist laws aimed at men, while promoting gay and lesbian relations. 
In 2003 the pro-US activists raised the age of consent from 14 to 16 in Russia. Tens of thousands of young people has been imprisoned for their love following this law. 
Given such consequences, the law has been amended last year: the sex with any sexually mature girl is not punishable any longer, thus effectively restoring the Soviet law. 
I would say that it is not only my opinion that this movement to increase sex age and the witch hunt came here from the USA.

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## Deborski

> I would say that it is not only my opinion that this movement to increase sex age and the witch hunt came here from the USA.

 There are psychological studies which show that a child's brain has not fully developed until at least 18.  The world is raising age of consent laws because of developments in science.  Of course, you already know this since you want a girl who is a "blank sheet of paper" so that you can program her to do your bidding. 
Take your conspiracy theories and your misogyny and go talk with someone who is interested in your views.  This thread has been derailed enough.

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## Anixx

> There are psychological studies which show that a child's brain has not fully developed until at least 18.

 Psychological studies cannot tell anything about brain development. It is not a subject of psychology. If a psychologist tells you about brain development, he is a charlatan.
Even if the brain is not fully developed at this stage, it is unevident how this can hinder sexual activity any how greater than other physiological necessities such as eating. 
Note also that boys serve at military at 17 in Russia. Their brain is already OK for bearing weapons and fight a war. You call people of this age "children". LOL. Do you mean that the army is composed of children? They should have right to fire and being killed but no right to have sex? 
The age 14-17 the the most fertile age for women. It is the age of hormonal peak and the highest sexual desire for both women and men. 
The sexual desire at higher age is orders of magnitude lower.
It is the age most typical for sex in all societies (possibly with exception of modern USA).  
The organism at this age experiences physiological necessity to have sex.

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## Anixx

> Of course, you already know this since you want a girl who is a "blank sheet of paper" so that you can program her to do your bidding.

 Any man wants a girl who yet did not learn to be mercantile or otherwise perverted by the society. Who believes in love. Who did not have negative experience with other men.
For whom being with a man is something special, not what she did 100 times already.
This does not have anything connected to physiology. 
Unfortunately you hardly can find a virgin at age above 15 in Russia. So once you passed 18 you have virtually no legal chance to mate a virgin. This means that the best girls pass to school hooligans who think about sex, not about learning. Good boys who want to complete study in university first only can expect to get the remainder: ugly girls whom no school hooligan liked, divorced, abandoned, with children etc. 
This system puts bad boys in preferential position and encourages sex in school rather than learning.

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## Deborski

Yes, and your predatory attitudes towards girls is not impressing me even remotely. I'm not sure who you think you are convincing with your arguments.  But I do not have the time nor the interest in continuing to talk with a pedophile. 
*blocking you*

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## Marcus

> Note also that boys serve at military at 17 in Russia.

 18  

> It is the age of hormonal peak and the highest sexual desire for both women and men. 
> The sexual desire at higher age is orders of magnitude lower.

 No, women have the peak of sexual desire after 30.  

> Unfortunately you hardly can find a virgin at age above 15 in Russia.

  

> As I remember by 15 years most girls already had boyfriends and had tried all kinds of sex, were going to night clubs

 Are you sure?  

> So once you passed 18 you have virtually no legal chance to mate a virgin.

 What for?  

> Good boys who want to complete study in university first only can expect to get the remainder: ugly girls whom no school hooligan liked, divorced, abandoned, with children etc.

 That's not true.  

> But I do not have the time nor the interest in continuing to talk with a pedophile.

 He is not a pedophile.  

> The organism at this age experiences physiological necessity to have sex.

 Necessaty?
I don't see much reason to have this age of consent.

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## Doomer

> This is just typical. In most marriages the men are elder than women - that's just statistics. Girls start to engage in relations earlier than boys.

 Yes
But it doesn't mean that men prefer younger women, it just means that women preferred older men at the age they got married  :: 
And since "girls start to engage in relations earlier than boys" they obviously have more experience than boys thus they play leading role in choosing a partner 
I think it is incorrect to say that men prefer younger women w/o specifying the age-group for both sides. The same goes for women 
PS: My wife is older than me  ::

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## Anixx

> But I do not have the time nor the interest in continuing to talk with a pedophile.

 Oh yes anybody who does not want 46 years old women is pedophile.   

> Are you sure?

 The average age of starting sexual life by girls is 14,5 years in Russia and Belarus Гинекология подростков, начало половой жизни, гинекологические заболевания | Гинекология на interfax.by
If we had American laws, we should imprison all men.   

> That's not true.

 Well do you contest that by 15 most girls already have permanent boyfriends?    

> I don't see much reason to have this age of contest.

 Which age? 
Actually if you look at the ages of sexually active men and women you can see the following.
The sexual activity of men as about 14-70, sexual activity of women is about 14-40.
So for each sexually active woman there are about 2 sexually active men. This creates a 
strict deficit of sexually active women.  
This makes men to pay large sums of money to attract women's attention and have sex. 
Note also that very young men are not usually subject of interest for older women
while younger women are usually subject of interest for older men. 
Thus by increasing age of consent the number of competing men does not decrease while the number of available women 
decreases significantly. This even more increases the deficit of women. You know a night with a prostitute in modern Russia
costs about an average monthly wage. It seems that the feminists want to increase that number. 
When there are many men who are not sexually satisfied, the number of rapists, maniacs and so on dramatically increases.
It has been exposed that this is a normal marketing tactic - to crate the desire and create frustration so to sell their
product for higher money.

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## Anixx

> Yes
> PS: My wife is older than me

 This may mean that you could not find a younger girl. Because they are in great deficit. Just imagine. If in your place (USA) age of consent is 18, this means
that all men from 18 to 60 want a 18-25 years old girl. Divide 7 by 42. You get 0.166 Evidently it would be VERY hard to find a free girl of this age. 
If the age of consent lowered by just 2 years, the proportion would be 9/42=0.214, the chance to find a young wife would be 30% greater!

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## Hanna

I think this discussion needs to get back on track rather than continue any personal mudslinging. 
Seems to me that both Anixx and Deborsky were taking a slightly provocative stereotypical view on these things, based on their respective backgrounds - there is no right or wrong in this matter - to each his own. But I agree with Marcus that what Anixx said does not make him a pedophile. To say that couples have sexual desires in their teens and that this is a good time to have children is more like some extreme branch of natural philosophy or something... And of course, a few hundred or thousand years ago, it was the norm... 
I am going to start a separate thread about womens issues in Russia because it is an interesting question and I don't know much about what the situation is like at the moment.

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## maxmixiv

> Seems to me that both Anixx and Deborsky were taking a slightly provocative stereotypical view on these things, based on their respective backgrounds

 You said it very well, Hanna! And put it so mildly! "Белены объелись", - I would say  ::

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## Doomer

> This may mean that you could not find a younger girl. Because they are in great deficit. Just imagine. If in your place (USA) age of consent is 18, this means
> that all men from 18 to 60 want a 18-25 years old girl. Divide 7 by 42. You get 0.166 Evidently it would be VERY hard to find a free girl of this age. 
> If the age of consent lowered by just 2 years, the proportion would be 9/42=0.214, the chance to find a young wife would be 30% greater!

 Awesome logic but you failed 
I've got married in Russia
And I've dated girls younger and older than me, before that  :: 
I didn't have any problems finding younger girls but I guess word love has nothing to say to you
Because you obviously like statistics more  ::

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## Doomer

> Actually if you look at the ages of sexually active men and women you can see the following.
> The sexual activity of men as about 14-70, sexual activity of women is about 14-40.

 The problem here is that men have peak of sexual activity at the age of 18 but women at the age of 28, so, first - it confronts you theory completely and second studies show that most of men active at 20s and 50s and significantly less active at 40s, 30s, 60s, and 70s (in this order)  

> So for each sexually active woman there are about 2 sexually active men. This creates a 
> strict deficit of sexually active women.

 I guess you only good in simple math, something a little bit more complex didn't cross your mind
Have you considered that number of man and women living on this planet is not the same and also did you look into the life expectancy? http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Соотношение_полов 
Anyway
If we talk about the US
Here is the statistics - http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005061.html
The difference is about two years, I don't think it's very significant, I also think that this difference covers differentiation of puberty of males and females.  Please also notice that age of 18 is not median for the marriage in the US
And Russia is very close to the US - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage  :: 
Also population in the US  - 49.2% males and 50.8% females http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004925.html  
There is another thing that you didn't think of. Age 21-25 is considered the completion of development of brain's frontal lobes. Frontal lobes are very important and they basically separate children from adults. 
"The executive functions of the frontal lobes involve the ability to recognize future consequences resulting from current actions, to choose between good and bad actions (or better and best), override and suppress unacceptable social responses, and determine similarities and differences between things or events. Therefore, it is involved in higher mental functions." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontal_lobe
By that age people should understand what marriage is and start searching for a partner

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## Anixx

> Awesome logic but you failed 
> I've got married in Russia

 Well this only shows how difficult to find a wife in the USA. You married an older woman from abroad. The feminist dream! Women are in such deficit that you have to go to other countries!

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## Doomer

> Well this only shows how difficult to find a wife in the USA. You married an older woman from abroad. The feminist dream! Women are in such deficit that you have to go to other countries!

 Man, you are so narrow minded
I'm Russian, that's why I've got married in Russia. I'd been living there at the time I've got married

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## Marcus

> Well this only shows how difficult to find a wife in the USA. You married an older woman from abroad. The feminist dream! Women are in such deficit that you have to go to other countries!

 Doomer is originally from Russia.

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## Marcus

Меня опередили.

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## Eric C.

> Man, you are so narrow minded
> I'm Russian, that's why I've got married in Russia. I'd been living there at the time I've got married

 Well, as I like to say, it's blind hate that makes one really narrow minded. And Anixx, before you go deep into sexual adventures with underaged girls, ask yourself if you really hate the U.S. system and mentality much enough to break the law and go to jail.

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## Anixx

> Well, as I like to say, it's blind hate that makes one really narrow minded. And Anixx, before you go deep into sexual adventures with underaged girls, ask yourself if you really hate the U.S. system and mentality much enough to break the law and go to jail.

 Well I am not in US so what's the point?

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## Eric C.

> Well I am not in US so what's the point?

 The point is, this law is pretty much similar everywhere, at least it definitely is in Russia where I'm guessing you are.

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## Anixx

> The point is, this law is pretty much similar everywhere,

 Age of consent is different in different countries, in the USA it is the highest AFAIK. In Russia sex with a a biologically sexually mature girl is not punishable regardless of age.

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## Eric C.

> Age of consent is different in different countries, in the USA it is the highest AFAIK. In Russia sex with a a biologically sexually mature girl is not punishable regardless of age.

 I think Marcus said the age of consent in Russia was 16. I guess if you molest a teen under that age you'll still be prosecuted, won't you?

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## Lampada

> ... In Russia sex with a a biologically sexually mature girl is not punishable regardless of age.

 Sounds sick. I doubt that you'd tell it to your daughters or to your younger sisters.

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## Anixx

> I think Marcus said the age of consent in Russia was 16. I guess if you molest a teen under that age you'll still be prosecuted, won't you?

 If she did not reach sexual maturity.  

> Sounds sick. I doubt that you'd tell it to your daughters or to your younger sisters.

 Tell what? What is written in the law? I do not think it is neccessary for girls to know. This information is much more neccessary for boys.
If I had son I would be very afraid of his possible sex with girls under 16 because tens of thousands boys has been imprisoned for that since 2003 in Russia, when age of consent was upped from 14 to 16 under Western pressure. This is a real risk for all parents who has boys. 
Of course those boys are getting beaten, raped, molested in the prisons, but males' rights do not concern the feminist state.

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## Deborski

Just to clarify:   

> As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia, or paedophilia, is defined as a psychiatric disorder in persons who are 16 years of age or older typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally those under the age of 14, though onset of puberty varies). The prepubescent child must be at least five years younger than the adolescent before the attraction can be diagnosed as pedophilia.[1][2][3][4][5]

 Source: Pedophilia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
By "pedophile" I am referring to guys over 18 who prefer girls under 14.  So, if anixx only prefers girls over 14, he is not a pedophile technically.  But he still has stated he prefers girls between 14 and 18 - and I find that disgusting personally. 
I am not disgusted by an 18-year-old guy who loves his sweetheart from school, who happens to be 15.  That is a different situation.  They are both teenagers. 
I am talking about a man, who is already out of school, who specifically looks for little girls under 18.  Anixx's comment about underage girls being a "blank sheet of paper" tells me that he wants a girl whose mind has not developed. It is a very shallow view, from someone who does not have the maturity to relate to a woman who knows her own mind and knows what she wants in love.   
As for me, my husband is 8 years younger!  So I am certainly not opposed to dating people who are younger or older, as long as both people in the relationship are adults.  He was already 27 when we met.  By contrast, if I had been 20, he would have only been 13 - and that would have been too young.  So a lot depends on how old the person is when they meet someone.

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## Anixx

> Anixx's comment about underage girls being a "blank sheet of paper" tells me that he wants a girl whose mind has not developed.

 I have already specifyed what do I mean. This mostly means that their brain is not polluted with  
- experience with other men (especially, negative experience but positive as well) 
- religion, politics etc. 
- mercantilism   

> As for me, my husband is 8 years younger! So I am certainly not opposed to dating people who are younger or older, as long as both people in the relationship are adults. He was already 27 when we met.

 This is the outcome of your feminist society. Your state prohibits him to meet with younger girls and his peers are too inaccessible for him. So he has to mate an older woman. For a 27 years old guy it is more natural to meet a 16 or 17 years old girl than a 36-years old woman.   

> By contrast, if I had been 20, he would have only been 13 - and that would have been too young.

 As I already said, adult women usually have no sexual attraction to teenage men. Cases of women's pedophilia or other relations with underages are very limited in number regardless of whether it is prohibited. This is a clearly anti-male law.

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## Marcus

> Sounds sick. I doubt that you'd tell it to your daughters or to your younger sisters.

 Why? That was the law in the Soviet Union. What harm is done to them by sex? Why are you talking about girls and not about boys?

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## Marcus

> This is the outcome of your feminist society. Your state prohibits him to meet with younger girls and his peers are too inaccessible for him.

 Can't it be the result of his love, for example?
There is a man on the Lingvoforum, who expresses somewhat similar views as Anixx, but he wants an experienced woman, not a virgin.  

> I have already specifyed what do I mean. This mostly means that their brain is not polluted with  
> - experience with other men (especially, negative experience but positive as well) 
> - religion, politics etc. 
> - mercantilism

 But the experience of relationships with men also teaches her tact, patience and other good things. Why do you think that religion, politics and mercantilism are completely alien for a teenager?

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## Lampada

> Why? That was the law in the Soviet Union. What harm is done to them by sex? Why are you talking about girls and not about boys?

 Oh yeah? No harm? Grown men with young teenage girls? Sick!  Same as the older woman with teenage boy, but how often this could happen?  Not so much.

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## Lampada

> ...But the experience of relationships with men also teaches her tact, patience and other good things. ...

 Sickening and off-topic.

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## Marcus

> Sickening and off-topic.

 это я ответил Аниксу, который говорил, что девушки, у которых не было до этого отношений с мужчинами, "лучше".

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