# Forum About Russia Politics  Economic Sanctions against Russia  and Russia’s Retaliatory Trade Measures

## Antonio1986

http://www.interfax.ru/business/390120  http://rt.com/business/178636-russia...ucts-medvedev/ 
Russia decided to enter the economic war initiated by USA and EU and formally today. 
My personal opinion is that a country with a GDP of 2 trillions dollars cannot fight against countries with total GDP of 37 trillions (EU, USA, Canada, Australia and Norway) even if it is the biggest country by land, the 2nd biggest military power (given it's nuclear power) in the world and it has a permanent seat in the Security Council of UN.  
Do you think that this was the right decision from the Russian Government or it was just a "nationalistic firework" in order to disorientate or just to "entertain" the fears of the russian public in front of the imminent and unpreventable financial crisis(*1) in Russia? 
Specifically do you think that this move will render pressure to USA and EU to remove the financial sanctions or change policy? 
Also, a historical question: During the Soviet Union era (1917 - 1989) were any trade and economic relationships between Soviet Union and Western World?  
(*1) The imminent crisis will not be caused of course by the sanctions of the USA or EU. The sanctions constitute from an economic aspect a totally insignificant factor in front of the massive economy of Russia and its rich natural resources. The crisis is caused by the interior macroeconomic policy of Russia and the global financial crisis which started in 2008  _
P.S. please administrator change the title: "Economic war between Russia and the Western World", because in the everyone else is included also the B(R)ICS which are supporting Russia._

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## maxmixiv

> Do you think that this was the right decision from the Russian Government

 I think there is no other possibilities left.

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## iCake

If you don't hit back, you're going to be pushed around for the rest of your life

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## Antonio1986

> I think there is no other possibilities left.

 In the last days I am studying the book of Sun Tzu, the "Art of War" and I have collected many "clever lines". Three of them I think apply in the case of Russia:
1. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
2. Pretend inferiority and encourage the enemies arrogance.
3. The winner will be the the country that knows when to fight and when not.  
Russian government has many other tools to use and the biggest is it's political influence in: (a) China (b) Iran (c) Syria (d) Libya (e) Venezuela (f) Cuba (d) Eastern Europe (e.g. Moldavia, Belarus, Baltics) (e) Central Asia (f) Caucasus (g) Central Africa (h) Pakistan etc. 
No need for an economic war with economic superpowers like USA and EU.
I think the most effective tool would have been ignorance and pretending that nothing happens to Ukraine. 
Shortly, keep the line of Putin: "What happens in Ukraine doesn't have do to anything with Russia"

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## Suobig

> Russia decided to enter the economic war initiated by USA and EU and formally today.

 It looks like an economic war, but i can be something bigger - the end of the global economy as we know it.   

> My personal opinion is that a country with a GDP of 2 trillions dollars cannot fight against countries with total GDP of 37 trillions (EU, USA, Canada, Australia and Norway)

 It doesn't work that way. GDP matters if there's a global _hot_ war with massive casualties — how many tanks, traiers, cannons, guns and ammo can you produce, how many ammo can you afford to shoot in every attack and so on. 
You probably should calculate GDP per capita and keep in mind that there're a lot of countries that would be happy to take place on russian market - China, India, Turkey, Latin America etc.   

> Do you think that this was the right decision from the Russian Government or it was just a "nationalistic firework" in order to disorientate or just to "entertain" the fears of the russian public in front of the imminent and unpreventable financial crisis(*1) in Russia?

 One thing should be clear - Putin is _very_ western-oriented person. He's not willing to give away everything for just words of friendship and support as his predecessors did, but he wants Russia to be a part of the western world. Demarche like this is very uncharacteristic for him. It not pure populism - I'm sure.   

> Also, a historical question: During the Soviet Union era (1917 - 1989) were any trade and economic relationships between Soviet Union and Western World?

 There were economic relationships with Germany before WWII (technologies in exchage for resources mainly) and with allies during the war. But after the Cold war had begun relationships stopped. Only with the Warsaw pact countries.

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## 14Russian

> In the last days I am studying the book of Sun Tzu, the "Art of War" and I have collected many "clever lines". Three of them I think apply in the case of Russia:
> 1. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.
> 2. Pretend inferiority and encourage the enemies arrogance.
> 3. The winner will be the the country that knows when to fight and when not.  
> Russian government has many other tools to use and the biggest is it's political influence in: (a) China (b) Iran (c) Syria (d) Libya (e) Venezuela (f) Cuba (d) Eastern Europe (e.g. Moldavia, Belarus, Baltics) (e) Central Asia (f) Caucasus (g) Central Africa (h) Pakistan etc. 
> No need for an economic war with economic superpowers like USA and EU.
> I think the most effective tool would have been ignorance and pretending that nothing happens to Ukraine. 
> Shortly, keep the line of Putin: "What happens in Ukraine doesn't have do to anything with Russia"

 Everything about that is incorrect or inaccurate.   The Russians who replied are in denial (not surprising).  Every one of them. 
Today, big-talking Putin has sanctions against Canada's imports of food.   It will hurt the domestic/farming market in Canada but for Russia, stuff like that will cause inflation and shortages of food.   I think Russia should ban food products/imports from every Western country it can.   Have fun receiving Chinese food imports?  ::    Or wherever they're going to get it.   Even if Russia finds other partners, it won't help to choose China instead.   Russia will be at a trade disadvantage.   They are not sustaining.  Putin might want to make Russia into some EurAsian empire but other than getting cheap labour from the Caucasus, their main exports are still the same ones - oil, mining(?), machinery/weapons(?).   Also, I believe that imports from agricultural products often came from Ukraine?   So, they are in trouble there, too.   Expect some economic consequences in those areas that are probably unanticipated or ignored by many Russians who refuse to consider the fallout because they have been taught to avoid criticism of Government policies and bow down to anything the Kremlin does.   This is not a 'pro-West' view by any means, it one of realism and a critique of another Government that doesn't sustain itself.   Western ones don't either but they are not getting hit with as many sanctions.   The reason that the EU was soft on the sanctions is the same reason - they are not sustaining and also invested heavily in the Russian economy so certain entrepreneurs and large companies (read:  corporations) didn't want to take the hit.

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## diogen_

> Specifically do you think that this move will render pressure to USA and EU to remove the financial sanctions or change policy?

 Sure, the original calculation of the EU was that the negative impact of sanctions on its own economy would be insignificant, but now it’s a full-scale retaliation with substantial financial losses. Businesses don’t care too much about big politics and, therefore, may try to exert some pressure on governments to fix the issue with "crazy Russians" in order not to lose lucrative markets. This may create additional obstacles for Obama whenever he decides to hurt us even more with the next round of sanctions.   

> Also, a historical question: During the Soviet Union era (1917 - 1989) were any trade and economic relationships between Soviet Union and Western World?

 Yes, we sold gas, oil and metals to the West those days, especially after WWII, exactly as we do now. And we used to buy lots of wheat because communism and agriculture are incompatible.

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## Lampada

> Everything about that is incorrect or inaccurate.   The Russians who replied are in denial (not surprising).  Every one of them. ...

 Yours is the wrong way to approach discussion. You are passing judgement on something you have not viewed for yourself firsthand. You might have your opinion, but being so categorical never helps mutual understanding.

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## Eric C.

> If you don't hit back, you're going to be pushed around for the rest of your life

 To hit "the evil U.S. and EU" even more, somebody offer your government to confiscate all the foreign stuff (e.g. cell phones, laptops, TVs, cars, etc.) every citizen possesses. That will be a decent response by decent political figures, to the sanctions imposed by the evil rest of the world against innocent multi-billionaire state corporations. Yeah. Amen.

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## iCake

Eric C., please don't make more of my words than they are. I didn't say that I supported the action my government had taken. I just said that I believe that they had to do something. I'm not sure the sanctions were the right choice though

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## eisenherz

in my opinion this will hurt Russia more than the EU

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## hddscan

Right now it is not important because many big stores have 1-2 months food supply and by that time situation might change, also Russia limited import from many countries of the EU this winter already, so the sanctions are just continuation of that limit, looks like some kind of strategy. Maybe Russia wants the EU to appeal to WTO where it would also try to question Western sanctions on Russia and lift them.
Something tells me that in September Russia might bring gas "sanctions" on the table.
Russia was always telling that sanctions would hurt both sides, it looks like finally the EU realized that, it's a start.

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## bytemare

The title of this thread is over dramatic.  It's not a war, it's sanctions.  Even the "western world" is questionable but it could pass.

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## Lampada

> The title of this thread is over dramatic.  It's not a war, it's sanctions.  Even the "western world" is questionable but it could pass.

 Поменяла заголовок.  Просьба ко всем, особенно к Антонио, предложить другие варианты, если этот как-то не устраивает.

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## Meerkat

> There were economic relationships with Germany before WWII (technologies in exchage for resources mainly) and with allies during the war. But after the Cold war had begun relationships stopped. Only with the Warsaw pact countries.

 Finland (and seemingly India) and the Soviet Union had economic relationships: Bilateral trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
Just in case I want to remind, that Finland never was a member of Warsaw pact.

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## Basil77

I fully support Putin's food embargo from hostile countries. 10% of that imported food is delicacies and other 90% is total cr@p so no big loss. I don't buy any food from hostile contries anyway. The only problem for me was to stop buying Heinz ketchup becausue I used to like it. It's produced in Russia but the company owner is Carry's wife so (Deleted. L.) I stopped buying it. This embargo is a great help for our domestic farmers who was suffering after Russia entered WTO from western cheap crappy products.

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## Eric C.

> I fully support Putin's food embargo from hostile countries. 10% of that imported food is delicacies and other 90% is total cr@p so no big loss. I don't buy any food from hostile contries anyway. The only problem for me was to stop buying Heinz ketchup becausue I used to like it. It's produced in Russia but the company owner is Carry's wife so (Deleted. L.) I stopped buying it. This embargo is a great help fot our domestic farmers who was suffering after Russia entered WTO from western cheap crappy products.

 I fully encourage you also to break your iPhone/iPad with a hammer, like one Russian dude already did (and posted the evidence to youtube); it's very unfortunate if your car isn't Lada or Volga, too, coz otherwise you'll have to drown it in a lake. Money account or cash savings in dollars/euros? You'd better do anything to not let comrade Putin find it out, you don't want to let down his great trust in you, do you? And whatever happens, keep one thing in mind, whatever comrade Putin does, he does for the sake of your happiness and prosperity, and he's going to gain or lose from his every decision just the way YOU're going to gain/lose from them.  ::

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## Lampada

> I fully encourage you also to break your iPhone/iPad with a hammer, like one Russian dude already did (and posted the evidence to youtube); it's very unfortunate if your car isn't Lada or Volga, too, coz otherwise you'll have to drown it in a lake. Money account or cash savings in dollars/euros? You'd better do anything to not let comrade Putin find it out, you don't want to let down his great trust in you, do you? And whatever happens, keep one thing in mind, whatever comrade Putin does, he does for the sake of your happiness and prosperity, and he's going to gain or lose from his every decision just the way YOU're going to gain/lose from them.

  This all sounds like a private message. And could you please stop using this sarcastic tone against members here?

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## hddscan

> I fully encourage you also to break your iPhone/iPad with a hammer

 I thought China is not under sanctions  ::  Anyway you suggestion looks silly, maybe everybody should stop using periodic table, Russian rockets, Russian natural resources and so on, to follow your logic. 
The ban definitely looks interesting: it promotes Russian patriotism, supports Russian agriculture, increases involvement of Russia in BRICS and shows the West that sanctions could work in both directions. 
But both sides will suffer, for sure.

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## SergeMak

> I fully encourage you also to break your iPhone/iPad with a hammer, like one Russian dude already did (and posted the evidence to youtube); it's very unfortunate if your car isn't Lada or Volga, too, coz otherwise you'll have to drown it in a lake. Money account or cash savings in dollars/euros? You'd better do anything to not let comrade Putin find it out, you don't want to let down his great trust in you, do you? And whatever happens, keep one thing in mind, whatever comrade Putin does, he does for the sake of your happiness and prosperity, and he's going to gain or lose from his every decision just the way YOU're going to gain/lose from them.

 IPhones and iPads are assembled in China. Besides, there are a lot of cheap smart-phones and tablet PCs 100% made by China, so this is not an issue at all. Korean and Japanese cars are not a bit worse than the European ones, and the quality of Chinese cars has improved drastically in recent years, as well as that of lada-make cars. So, it's also is not a threat. Although Japan joined the sanctions it made it very reluctantly and there is no wonder, for Japan cannot stay aside watching the Russian-Chinese convergence. 
I have a question to Lampada. The decision of the USA and EU to introduce the sanctions against Russia is obviously connected with the Ukraine situation. Since all of the forum threads referring the political situation in Ukraine are banned on this site, I wonder why this one isn't?

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## SergeMak

> The title of this thread is over dramatic.  It's not a war, it's sanctions.  Even the "western world" is questionable but it could pass.

 You are wrong. It's a war. Moreover it's a war for survival. It's not a war against Putin or his government, it's the war against Russian people. The aims of the war range from provoking a forced change of the power in Russia as it was earlier made in Ukraine to disintegrating Russia into several unfriendly states leading permanent brother-killing wars against each other. The thousands of innocent victims in the South-East of Ukraine as well as the hundreds of the passengers of the Malaysian Boeing have already become the victims of this war.
On the other hand, the Ukrainian bomb is meant to undermine not only Russia, but Europe as well. So, it's very naive to hope to stay untouched by the war. The bell tolls for everyone, as I used to say earlier. 
As we cannot dodge from participating in this war, we have to take the sides. For Russians there is little choice since we are cornered. We will strike back.
As for Europeans there is a choice - either to follow the US politics and to lose their political and economical sovereignty or to take their own side and ally with Russia.

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## Lampada

> ...I have a question to Lampada. The decision of the USA and EU to introduce the sanctions against Russia is obviously connected with the Ukraine situation. Since all of the forum threads referring the political situation in Ukraine are banned on this site, I wonder why this one isn't?

 Упс! Поймали с поличным.  Ожидала такой вопрос.  Отвечаю: дискуссии о трагедии в Украине не должны были быть забанены на МР, но, как известно, перешли в откровенное перебрасывание "какашками" и всяких оскорблений в адрес людей и стран, что не могло здесь продолжаться.  Теперь же эта тема, открытая Антонио, которого интересует всякая экономика, вроде бы обещает в потенциале строиться на чинной, добропорядочной и взаимоуважительной основе. Я думаю, что это вполне возможно, конечно, при желании участников.

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## Lampada

> You are wrong. It's a war. Moreover it's a war for survival. It's not a war against Putin or his government, it's the war against Russian people. The aims of the war range from provoking a forced change of the power in Russia as it was earlier made in Ukraine to disintegrating Russia into several unfriendly states leading permanent brother-killing wars against each other. The thousands of innocent victims in the South-East of Ukraine as well as the hundreds of the passengers of the Malaysian Boeing have already become the victims of this war.
> On the other hand, the Ukrainian bomb is meant to undermine not only Russia, but Europe as well. So, it's very naive to hope to stay untouched by the war. The bell tolls for everyone, as I used to say earlier. 
> As we cannot dodge from participating in this war, we have to take the sides. For Russians there is little choice since we are cornered. We will strike back.
> As for Europeans there is a choice - either to follow the US politics and to lose their political and economical sovereignty or to take their own side and ally with Russia.

 Видишь ли, для простых американцев и, наверное, западных европейцев твоя точка зрения на современную политику, я думаю, будет полностью неприемлема.  Опять же я думаю, что они бы, если б задумались, пришли б к заключению с точностью "до наоборот" от твоего понимания политических событий.   Всё-таки СМИ тут и СМИ там диаметрально противоположно всё освещают.  Жаль, что Дебби нет, она бы, наверное, с твоей точкой зрения согласилась, а также мой племянник, твой тёзка, но он пока в тюрьме.  Через год выйдет, постараюсь его сюда затянуть.

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## SergeMak

"Перебрасывание какашками" происходит не из-за тем дискуссий, а из-за интеллектуального и этического уровня собеседников. Можно ведь устроить грандиозную перебранку с оскорблениями и мордобоем и по таким невинным и бессмысленным темам, как "что лучше - чай или кофе?", было бы желание. 
Это во-первых.
Во-вторых, экономические санкции - на самом деле являются инструментом политического давления, а не чисто экономическим явлением, так же как, скажем, порка является методом воспитательного воздействия на сознание, а не физическим упражнением или разновидностью массажа.
Поэтому, говорить о санкциях в отрыве от причин и прогнозируемых последствий невозможно, а как те, так и другие выходят за пределы экономики. Поэтому любой разговор о санкциях неизбежно приведет к обсуждению ситуации на Украине и новым порциям взаимных оскорблений.

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## hddscan

> Поэтому любой разговор о санкциях неизбежно приведет к обсуждению ситуации на Украине и новым порциям взаимных оскорблений.

 Я думаю, что интеллектуального и этического уровня собеседников должно хватить, чтобы не привело.
Хотя я думаю лучше наказывать провинившихся, нежели всех подряд, закрывая тему, хотя закрыть тему конечно проще.

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## Basil77

> I fully encourage you also to break your iPhone/iPad with a hammer, like one Russian dude already did (and posted the evidence to youtube); it's very unfortunate if your car isn't Lada or Volga, too, coz otherwise you'll have to drown it in a lake.

 My cellphone was made in Malaysia and no, I don't use and never used Apple products. I always thought it's overestimated marketing garbage.  

> Money account or cash savings in dollars/euros? You'd better do anything to not let comrade Putin find it out, you don't want to let down his great trust in you, do you?

 All my savings and bank accounts are in roubles. I only buy dollars/euros when go to vacation abroad.  

> And whatever happens, keep one thing in mind, whatever comrade Putin does, he does for the sake of your happiness and prosperity, and he's going to gain or lose from his every decision just the way YOU're going to gain/lose from them.

 I'm pretty anti-Putin actually. I still think he is a corrupt crook. But I agree with him on food embargo. It's a good thing in my opinion.

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## hddscan

> My cellphone is maid in Malaysia

 I'm sure it was a typo but just in case, it's "made" not "maid". Don't beat me too hard  ::

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## eisenherz

> I have a question to Lampada. The decision of the USA and EU to introduce the sanctions against Russia is obviously connected with the Ukraine situation. Since all of the forum threads referring the political situation in Ukraine are banned on this site, I wonder why this one isn't?

 while I can understand Serge's logic with this question, I for one feel that reasonable debate and exchange of opinions should be encouraged rather than banned. These are after all real and current world happenings that affect people's life. If we can't talk even about them, who can?

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## Basil77

> I'm sure it was a typo but just in case, it's "made" not "maid". Don't beat me too hard

 Thanks  ::

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## SergeMak

> while I can understand Serge's logic with this question, I for one feel that reasonable debate and exchange of opinions should be encouraged rather than banned. These are after all real and current world happenings that affect people's life. If we can't talk even about them, who can?

 Do you mean that the happenings in South-East of Ukraine don't affect people's life? Or do you mean that the inhabitants of that region are not people at all?

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## Lampada

> Do you mean that the happenings in South-East of Ukraine don't affect people's life? Or do you mean that the inhabitants of that region are not people at all?

 
Where do you see negative? Didn't he say "affect"?

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## Antonio1986

> Упс! Поймали с поличным.  Ожидала такой вопрос.  Отвечаю: дискуссии о трагедии в Украине не должны были быть забанены на МР, но, как известно, перешли в откровенное перебрасывание "какашками" и всяких оскорблений в адрес людей и стран, что не могло здесь продолжаться.  Теперь же эта тема, открытая Антонио, которого интересует всякая экономика, вроде бы обещает в потенциале строиться на чинной, добропорядочной и взаимоуважительной основе. Я думаю, что это вполне возможно, конечно, при желании участников.

 As an economist I am interested mainly in the economic aspects. 
I didn't link the issue with the Ukraine at all, even if it is connected.

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## SergeMak

> As an economist I am interested mainly in the economic aspects. 
> I didn't link the issue with the Ukraine at all, even if it is connected.

 Antonio, be careful! Don't use use the "the" with the word "Ukraine", lest the Ukrainian patriots claim that you are a Putin's spy and provocateur!

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## hddscan

> Antonio, be careful! Don't use use the "the" with the word "Ukraine", lest the Ukrainian patriots claim you as a Putin's spy and provocateur!

 Serge вам надо успокоиться, вы на грани нервного срыва
Я понимаю что СМИ нагнетают со всех сторони, враги мерещаться за углом и т.п.
Но в западных СМИ Украина по важности занимает строчки даже ниже Сирии, поэтому ваши выпады будут восприниматься с непониманием многими иностранцами.

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## SergeMak

> Where do you see negative? Didn't he say affect?

 Of course, see no evil, hear no evil! It's so convenient. "let's come together right now oh yeah in sweet harmony"

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## 14Russian

> Yours is the wrong way to approach discussion. You are passing judgement on something you have not viewed for yourself firsthand. You might have your opinion, but being so categorical never helps mutual understanding.

 Yes, it's my opinion and I explained and elaborated in the same post.   There should be mutual undersanding    
I only explained why Russians that posted in this topic underestimated the trade sanctions and demonstrated a rational theory about the current status/state of the Russian economy.   So, I theorized that they were inaccurate based on the facts.   It does not matter why or who are included in the sanctions.   Even if Russia finds other customers, they are at a huge disadvantage.   If they are 'buddies' with China concerning trade, they are a massive disadvantage.

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## hddscan

14Russian, why suddenly so much care for Russians? 
Oh that evil Putin, oh he wants to neglect Russians.
First of all what you are saying almost word to word repeats Western MSM, so you don't deliver anything new here.
Second, if you would talk to Russians (even here) you would notice that many of them approve the ban and think of it as more good than bad. But it seems that you want to believe Western MSM and don't want to believe Russians which you are trying to "protect".
Your position perfectly fits to "sour grapes" story and that's position also taken by many Western politicians right now. It's understandable, many people don't want to admit reality if it shows them in bad shape.
I wonder if Canada will try to do something even more stupid, like Australia talking about banning Uranium trades with Russia. Mr. Abbott was obviously so not ready to admit that Australia would be affected by Russian sanctions that he wants to shoot himself to the other leg. 
The truth is the West doesn't know Russia or Russians, but not only it claims that it does, it also thinks that it knows better what Russians want and need. Ignorance and snobbism, that are unfortunate qualities of current Western politicians.

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## Lampada

> Of course, see no evil, hear no evil! It's so convenient. "let's come together right now oh yeah in sweet harmony" ...

  Не знаю, что сказать... Пожалуй, здесь лучше мне остаться в непонятках.

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## eisenherz

> Do you mean that the happenings in South-East of Ukraine don't affect people's life? Or do you mean that the inhabitants of that region are not people at all?

 with all respect I do not understand how you read either of the two into my post;
i merely expressed my thinking that I prefer debate and exchange of opinions as opposed to discussions being banned.

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## Antonio1986

> I fully support Putin's food embargo from hostile countries

 Cyprus is not a hostile country.
With its 700,000 population is supporting Russia in both European Commission and Council.
We with Germany and other countries have voted many times against strict economical measures against Russia supported by Latvia, Estonia, Poland etc. 
I suppose there are also other countries within Europe that support Russian for many reasons (economical, political, cultural etc).

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## SergeMak

> 14Russian, why suddenly so much care for Russians?

 He doesn't care a hoot for Russians. The number 14 in his nickname is a code slogan of white nationalists which means the 14 words of either "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" or "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth". 
I don't think it's productive to join to discussion with nazis. It's better to ignore them.

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## Lampada

> He doesn't care a hoot for Russians. The number 14 in his nickname is a code slogan of white nationalists which means the 14 words of either "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" or "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth". 
> I don't think it's productive to join to discussion with nazis. It's better to ignore them.

 Зачем это здесь? Абсолютный оф-топик и скорее всего неправда.  Я читаю его ник как_ I for Russian_.

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## hddscan

> Cyprus is not a hostile country.
> With its 700,000 population is supporting Russia in both European Commission and Council.
> We with Germany and other countries have voted many times against strict economical measures against Russia supported by Latvia, Estonia, Poland etc. 
> I suppose there are also other countries within Europe that support Russian for many reasons (economical, political, cultural etc).

 That's a problem 
Although sanctions are supported by the EU, so Russia retaliated against the EU.
Those countries that were against the sanctions before need to put pressure on Brussels to lift the sanctions. Somebody gotta do the job.

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## Eric C.

> He doesn't care a hoot for Russians. The number 14 in his nickname is a code slogan of white nationalists which means the 14 words of either "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" or "Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth". 
> I don't think it's productive to join to discussion with nazis. It's better to ignore them.

 Wow! I would never come to that in my life, and I had to look it up on the web until I found something like that on Wikipedia. That's a real funny interpretation of just a random number in someone's nickname! Seriously though, the tendency of calling opponents "nazis" has been getting sadly persistent among Russians recently.

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## Eric C.

> That's a problem 
> Although sanctions are supported by the EU, so Russia retaliated against the EU.
> Those countries that were against the sanctions before need to put pressure on Brussels to lift the sanctions. Somebody gotta do the job.

 The real problem is, Russia didn't retaliate against the EU, neither against the U.S. What they did is retaliation against their own fellow citizens. I don't think losing the Russian market for the EU & U.S. is even 1% of what losing the ability to buy quality stuff from the first world is for ordinary Russians. Once again, the Russian authorities demonstrate that they treat people just like another resource, like oil, gas, etc. Maybe that will be the last straw for the people to finally wake up though?...

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## hddscan

> The real problem is, Russia didn't retaliate against the EU, neither against the U.S. What they did is retaliation against their own fellow citizens.

 As you may notice Russians disagree with you

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## Eric C.

> As you may notice Russians disagree with you

 I'm hoping the opinion on that is more diverse than what we've seen so far. =))

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## SergeMak

> The real problem is, Russia didn't retaliate against the EU, neither against the U.S. What they did is retaliation against their own fellow citizens. I don't think losing the Russian market for the EU & U.S. is even 1% of what losing the ability to buy quality stuff from the first world is for ordinary Russians. Once again, the Russian authorities demonstrate that they treat people just like another resource, like oil, gas, etc. Maybe that will be the last straw for the people to finally wake up though?...

 Yes, shooting down the second Malaysian plane during a half-year time span with a 100 virologists on board at the moment of a sudden out-break of ebola virus in Guinea, on the very day when Israel began the attack at South Lebanon demonstrates that the US treat people's lives just like another resource, like oil, gas, etc, regardless of whether these are the lives of Europeans or Africans...
But it's too naive to believe that the Europeans can finally wake up and to begin to notice what is happening around them - they got obesity of brain and soul.

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## hddscan

> I'm hoping the opinion on that is more diverse than what we've seen so far. =))

 Does that mean that you want Russians suffer? 
That is rather strange hope, I think.

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## Eric C.

> Yes, shooting down the second Malaysian plane during a half-year time span with a 100 virologist on board at the moment of a sudden out-break of ebola virus in Guinea, on the very day when Israel began the attack at South Lebanon demonstrates that the US treat people's lives just like another resource, like oil, gas, etc, regardless of whether these are the lives of Europeans or Africans...
> But it's too naive to believe that the Europeans can finally wake up and to begin to notice what is happening around them - they got obesity of brain and soul.

 This reminds me of an old Soviet dialog: 
- Я говорю, у вашей страны множество проблем, от полного внутреннего тоталитаризма, до абсолютной закрытости рынка и милитаризованности экономики.
- И что, а в Америке негров линчуют! 
I'd understand if those were excuses made by public figures, to hide up the faults of their policies by switching everyone's attention to "the evil U.S."; but how's that relevant to ordinary people???

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## Eric C.

> Yes, shooting down the second Malaysian plane during a half-year time span with a 100 virologists on board at the moment of a sudden out-break of ebola virus in Guinea, on the very day when Israel began the attack at South Lebanon demonstrates that the US treat people's lives just like another resource, like oil, gas, etc, regardless of whether these are the lives of Europeans or Africans...
> But it's too naive to believe that the Europeans can finally wake up and to begin to notice what is happening around them - they got obesity of brain and soul.

 And on the plane, since when do the U.S. help the separatists in eastern Ukraine?

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## Eric C.

> Does that mean that you want Russians suffer? 
> That is rather strange hope, I think.

 That means, I hope there are people in Russia who don't like their rights violated, and are ready to fight for them. Consumer rights, for instance.

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## Lampada

Никому не кажется, что тема уходит на оффтопиковую взрывоопасную территорию с переходом на личности?  Я боюсь, что надежда на уважительные отношения и взаимопонимание пока не оправдывается.
Закрываю на несколько дней.

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## Lampada

Тема открывается с требованием взаимоуважительного отношения участников и отсутствия присутствия любой пропаганды.

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## UhOhXplode

I think what's most important is the facts.
1. Nobody is being shelled in Crimea since they annexed to Russia. That's a very positive thing.
2. Russia has been sending humanitarian aid convoys to eastern Ukraine. I haven't seen any other country doing that.
3. The sanctions are counterproductive against a country (Russia) that has created a lasting ceasefire in Ukraine. It's not perfect but it is working.
4. If any other country is sending anything but military aid then please let me know. Because I haven't heard about any country, except Russia, helping those people. 
Imo, the sanctions are not only counterproductive, the are NOT deserved.

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## Eric C.

> I think what's most important is the facts.
> 1. Nobody is being shelled in Crimea since they annexed to Russia. That's a very positive thing.
> 2. Russia has been sending humanitarian aid convoys to eastern Ukraine. I haven't seen any other country doing that.
> 3. The sanctions are counterproductive against a country (Russia) that has created a lasting ceasefire in Ukraine. It's not perfect but it is working.
> 4. If any other country is sending anything but military aid then please let me know. Because I haven't heard about any country, except Russia, helping those people. 
> Imo, the sanctions are not only counterproductive, the are NOT deserved.

 For some reason, there are still armed forces in eastern Ukraine who still feel at war with the Ukrainian army, and who aren't willing to put down their guns. Ceasefire may work for a while, but is it the recipe to stop those forces forever? What can be done about those forces, anyway? Reason them? The last few months showed they cannot be reasoned with any logic or common sense at all. So, is there any other way but the military one to get rid of them? If you think it is, please share one.

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## hddscan

> I think what's most important is the facts.
> 3. The sanctions are counterproductive against a country (Russia) that has created a lasting ceasefire in Ukraine. It's not perfect but it is working.

 I don't think it is working, moreover I don't think it was intended to work. The "ceasefire" targets two things:
1. Elections to Ukrainian Rada. Ukraine needs to stop military actions, at least on paper, to make the elections "lawful"
2. Western press could stop printing disturbing articles about situation in Ukraine, leaving this situation to be solved "behind the curtains" of publicity. 
In reality fights continue every day, people die every day and hatred grows between two sides, every day.  

> 4. If any other country is sending anything but military aid then please let me know. Because I haven't heard about any country, except Russia, helping those people.

 Germany Sends Humanitarian Convoy to Ukraine | World | RIA Novosti Власти Украины отправили гуманитарную помощь на Донбасс - Korrespondent.net

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## hddscan

> Imo, the sanctions are not only counterproductive, the are NOT deserved.

 That is only if you think that sanctions were supposed to motivate Russia to do something different about Ukrainian situation.
IMO people who approved sanction couldn't care less about Ukraine. When they say that their target is "economical isolation" of Russia - I believe them. They don't like Russia's economy to grow and that's the real reason for the sanctions and Ukraine is just a convenient cover for this.

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## UhOhXplode

> For some reason, there are still armed forces in eastern Ukraine who still feel at war with the Ukrainian army, and who aren't willing to put down their guns. Ceasefire may work for a while, but is it the recipe to stop those forces forever? What can be done about those forces, anyway? Reason them? The last few months showed they cannot be reasoned with any logic or common sense at all. So, is there any other way but the military one to get rid of them? If you think it is, please share one.

 How about, there are still Ukrainian troops who still feel at war with the pro-Russian Ukrainians. I totally do believe its happening on both sides. And I have to disagree. The ceasefire and the pull backs prove that the pro-Russian Ukrainians can be reasoned with.
And yes I think there is a better solution than the extermination of the political opposition. Peace and negotiations.   

> I don't think it is working, moreover I don't think it was intended to work. The "ceasefire" targets two things:
> 1. Elections to Ukrainian Rada. Ukraine needs to stop military actions, at least on paper, to make the elections "lawful"
> 2. Western press could stop printing disturbing articles about situation in Ukraine, leaving this situation to be solved "behind the curtains" of publicity. 
> In reality fights continue every day, people die every day and hatred grows between two sides, every day.  Germany Sends Humanitarian Convoy to Ukraine | World | RIA Novosti Власти Украины отправили гуманитарную помощь на Донбасс - Korrespondent.net

 Imo, the elections in Ukraine will never be lawful. The new government was installed after an illegal and violent coup of the Ukrainian government. That wasn't lawful either.
And yeah, burning people alive and executing Ukrainians brought in for questioning then burying them in mass graves is extremely disturbing. So is shelling hospitals, orphanages, residential areas, and schools. But I really don't believe that the people reading the media are ever involved in the peace process. That's only for the politicians. 
But no, I wasn't aware of the reasons for the ceasefire. But at least it can reduce the number of deaths and injuries while they work on solutions. More military aid can't.
And yeah there will be a lot of hating both now and after the crisis is solved. I'm not even there but it's impossible to forget those people being burned alive and the Ukrainians laughing. It's also impossible to forget that old woman crying in her shelled house. Or all the children that died. So yeah, it will probaly be even more impossible for them to forget that nightmare. 
Good on Germany! I knew they had discussed sending humanitarian aid but this is the first time I've seen any proof that they were sincere about that. But I did believe they would eventually help out.
I also wasn't aware that the Ukrainian authorities had sent aid last August. But if they did then there must have been a political motivation for helping the people they shelled. Also this:  

> "Это помощь нашим соотечественникам, оказавшимся в зоне АТО в Донецкой и Луганской областях", - сообщил Бурбак

 So I seriously doubt that the Ukrainian aid from Kiev was ever given to anyone but the Kiev supporters. Anyone else that tried to get some of that aid was probaly arrested.   

> That is only if you think that sanctions were supposed to motivate Russia to do something different about Ukrainian situation.
> IMO people who approved sanction couldn't care less about Ukraine. When they say that their target is "economical isolation" of Russia - I believe them. They don't like Russia's economy to grow and that's the real reason for the sanctions and Ukraine is just a convenient cover for this.

 I was suspecting that. They know the sanctions won't change Russian policies. And the color revolution was staged right after the very successful Sochi olympics. When I saw all those EU and US politicians on the Maidan, I knew it was an NGO sponsored coup. 
After everything I've read in both the western and eastern media, my only conclusion is that the Ukrainian crisis is a western war against Russia. 
I believe the west (especially the US) is trying to weaken Moscow and spread unrest so they can take Russia out. Further proof is the fact that they are operating Radio Free Europe again and this time they are especially targeting Crimea.  

> As Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine in March, the station launched a special website for the peninsula in three languages — Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar.

 Radio Free Europe back on the frontline with Russian and Ukrainian broadcasts 
The west (especially America) wants more bloodshed and this time they want it in Russia.

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## hddscan

> Imo, the elections in Ukraine will never be lawful. The new government was installed after an illegal and violent coup of the Ukrainian government. That wasn't lawful either.

 But the alternative is complete chaos and unrest. In general people do not want to do meaningless things, even politicians around the world have to agree to some form of government in Ukraine. For example Russia has agreed to call Poroshenko president of Ukraine, even that before Russia was saying that the elections were unlawful     

> But I really don't believe that the people reading the media are ever involved in the peace process. That's only for the politicians.

 People, reading the media, are involved in elections and that's where politicians have to be careful   

> So I seriously doubt that the Ukrainian aid from Kiev was ever given to anyone but the Kiev supporters.

 maybe, I know that Mr. Ahmetov is helping Donbass people with humanitarian aid.

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## 14Russian

> Vladimir Putin is ok. I analyzed the events in Ukraine. It was a provocation. Analogous to this is what you call an insult to Russian culture. If you come visit Russia and the folks invite you to drink vodka, do not leave the crowd until you and the folks have finished the bottle of vodka. You're acting bourgeoisie if you do that.

 Putin is okay for oligarchs, banks and brainwashed people.    
This is what he's good for:  https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/pu...200700766.html  Russia Brain Drain Putin Ukraine Crimea - Business Insider  http://www.businessweek.com/articles...s-pension-fund 
He's good for destroying Russian culture, provoking ethnic Russians to leave and for inviting migrants in.   That's okay for many, it seems.

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## 14Russian

Putin cares about Russians!!!  LMAO!    7500 Mosques Have Been Erected In Russia Since Putin Became President | The Interpreter

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## Hanna

Well I bought some Russian shares for my pension fund on Monday.
No doubt they will be back to previous levels within 1-2 years maximum, so for me, this is a good deal.
My only worry about this is that Russian companies de-list from the London Stock Exchange. 
There wasn't a lot to choose from so I bought Sistema, Gazprom and Magnit.  
However I am very sorry that this is affecting Russia. What's happened is deeply unfair and corrupt. Basically Saudi acting on US orders to hurt Russia and Iran by bizarre manipulation of the oil prize.  
In the meantime, hysteria in Sweden about Russia is 10 times higher than ever in my lifetime. 
It's beyond a joke. It's total insanity.  It's a tragi-comedy.
A lot of people are actually falling for it, particularly young people.  
Anyone who just accepts media stories will believe that Russia is actually planning to invade Sweden shortly. 
They make up various accusations about planes, submarines illegally on Swedish territory.  
They are actually planning to re-call guys who did their military service 10 years ago on a refresher drill "due to the hostile threat from abroad".  
Those who are still able to think critically and aren't paralysed by irrational fear of Russia realise that there is manipulation going on. We are pushed into the arms of NATO probably and already half way in. It makes me sick. 
Tragic to see that my country has totally lost its independence and is now a puppet operated from Washington and Brussels.  
As for the unmentionanable country starting with a U..... 
A tragedy beyond belief to see what it looks like now. 
I just want to tell Russians: There are plenty of thinking people in Europe (and the USA, I think) who realise that you are being the victim of a very nasty conspiracy at the moment. I don't think Russia deserves this at all. Russia is being punished for not being the loser country it was in the 1990s anymore. I am not worried in the least about the alleged "aggressiveness" of Russia and I think Russia is behaving with integrity, more or less.

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## hddscan

> Basically Saudi acting on US orders to hurt Russia and Iran by bizarre manipulation of the oil prize.

 It is a possibility but to me it seems unlikely.    

> Anyone who just accepts media stories will believe that Russia is actually planning to invade Sweden shortly. 
> They make up various accusations about planes, submarines illegally on Swedish territory. 
> They are actually planning to re-call guys who did their military service 10 years ago on a refresher drill "due to the hostile threat from abroad".

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## 14Russian

Who cares about Sweden?

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## xXHoax

Swedes.

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## Hanna

Sorry if I am boring anyone with this. I can only talk about what I know, and I am not the Russia expert here, the Russians are....  
Personally I am interested in the view that people have of my country abroad, and I would have thought that that goes for people of other nationalities too.  
Yeah that video (heard of it) would be funny if this wasn't taken completely seriously. 
How can anyone believe this kind of talk, when it's so completely ludicrous.  *I feel like I'm in North Korea or something, with the level of propaganda going on.*  
There  is a kind of a national debating forum for Sweden and they had to  create a separate section just for crazy stuff about Russia. People are  totally obsessed with this and have lost all sense of perspective.  https://www.flashback.org/f484
It just goes to show what a well orchestrated media campaign can achieve.  
I  think there is plenty legitimate criticism against Russia that could be  discussed - it's not a perfect country, but I think the odds of Russia  invading Sweden is about as likely as Martians landing on my balcony  tomorrow.  
A few days ago it was discovered that somebody put up a  fake mobile phone transmitter in the parliament quarters of town, so  that all politicians telephones could be tapped. Immediately everybody  is convinced it's Russia doing this. Despite the fact that the country  that the USA is the country with a proven recent history of doing  this...  Not saying that Russia couldn't have done it, but it could be  any other country, a newspaper looking for scoops or whatever. Why point  a finger until there is proof? 
It's actually scary to live in a  situation where there is no respect for logic and truth as propaganda is  dished out and people around you just lap it up. Normally the agitation  or whatever you want to call it, is about "politically correct" causes,  like anti-racism, homosexual rights, femininsm or whatever. In my  childhood it was anti-imperialism. Annoying, but at least they mean  well; they believe these are positive causes to make people believe in.   *But  now there is agitation about an actual enemy, a whole nation that is  just pointed out as the evil empire from which nothing good can come.  Despite there being no realistic proof or threat! It's gone too far! This is the tactics of aggressive dictatorships!!*  It's hard to accept that it's going on under my nose. 
I am getting Nazi Germany vibes from this level of hysteria against another country.  
I  think the paranoia is worse regarding this, even than in Poland... Maybe  not the Baltic States,  but at least they have some kind of legitimate  reason and history for being Russophobes. We don't. And when it comes to Poles I think they know Russia a bit better than most Swedes do, who are quite prone to believe any proposterous lie about Russia, just because they have no direct experience themselves.

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## hddscan

> Yeah that video (heard of it) would be funny if this wasn't taken completely seriously.

 It's ok. It's a new game of the world: to be afraid of Russia. Who is afraid more will get some "made in USA cookies"™  :: 
I personally see nothing wrong if Swedes would want to brush up their military defense capabilities.

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## Hanna

> Well I bought some Russian shares for my pension fund on Monday.
> No doubt they will be back to previous levels within 1-2 years maximum, so for me, this is a good deal.
> My only worry about this is that Russian companies de-list from the London Stock Exchange. 
> There wasn't a lot to choose from so I bought Sistema, Gazprom, VBT bank and Magnit.

 
Blimey! This was Monday. Sistema shares went up by 150% since  then. Magnit with 9%. I made £3500 for my pension fund in 4 days, just  from buying random Russian shares. Спасибо вам, Владимир Владимирович! I got an email from the account manager warning me about insider trading. LOL! I dont know anything, just need to keep the money in that fund invested and I never have any clue what to buy. My strategy is BRICs, technology and energy. 
Or should I thank America for orchestrating this insanity in the first place?   

> It's ok. It's a new game of the world: to be  afraid of Russia. Who is afraid more will get some "made in USA  cookies"™ 
> I personally see nothing wrong if Swedes would want to brush up their military defense capabilities.

 Well it is insane, since the destroyer of nations, is the USA, whether it's via invasion like the Middle East, or orchestrating a coup d'etat or civil war (UA, Syria, Libya.....) 
Personally I think Russia's behaviour is predictable and restrained and I can't help admiring what Putin did with Crimea because it was incredibly slick. Ukraine brought that upon itself by pure stupidity. Besides, they should have seen that coming and had a plan for it.  
And even if Russia did become aggressive, Sweden has nothing that Russia could possibly want - not even an ice free port to the Atlantic. There is just zero credibility in this proposterous tin foil conspiracy.   
I am just really, really paranoid that Sweden will be pushed into NATO.  Not only would it be awful for Sweden (and Finland) but it would actually piss off a certain bear completely unnecessarily and create a really unpleasant situation pf suspicion where none needs to exists.  
There is a small section maybe 5% who say they'd love to be invaded by Russia to stop mass immigration, Pride parades, radical feminism, and they believe it would be fun to be conscripted to the Russian army since it is a "real" army and some other ideas along those lines. They believe a republic in the RF is no worse off than a country in the EU. Mostly young right wing men have this view.  
I thought we were done with the Cold War, but some people just couldn't leave a dead man in his grave.....

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## Serge_spb

> Well I bought some Russian shares for my pension fund on Monday.
> No doubt they will be back to previous levels within 1-2 years maximum, so for me, this is a good deal.
> My only worry about this is that Russian companies de-list from the London Stock Exchange. 
> There wasn't a lot to choose from so I bought Sistema, Gazprom and Magnit.

 .................. 
Forget about them.

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## Eric C.

> .................. 
> Forget about them.

 I understand she had already converted all her savings to Russian rubles  ::

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## 14Russian

> Swedes.

  ::     Where?!?

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## 14Russian

> I understand she had already converted all her savings to Russian rubles

 LOL!

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## Eric C.

> Where?!?

 There used to be a guy from Sweden on this forum, Fester, he was okay. I mean,  I've always had a lot of respect for the Swedes as a nation, and he wasn't an exception. But there's one more person from that country on this forum, that continuously tries to change my mind about that nation with her every post on any political thread. But she's not doing a good job. =))

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## 14Russian

> There used to be a guy from Sweden on this forum, Fester, he was okay. I mean,  I've always had a lot of respect for the Swedes as a nation, and he wasn't an exception. But there's one more person from that country on this forum, that continuously tries to change my mind about that nation with her every post on any political thread. But she's not doing a good job. =))

 Yes, and I think there is another one but I think he's young, a student?   What I found, is that most Swedes are 'leftys' or they are 'far-left' so the thing about being cautious or paranoid about what Russia is doing is just a distratction to their inevitable problems their government is doing.   If you are worried about something else, you'll focus less attention on what is really serious.   Sweden is under America's/Israel (sorry, mate  ::  ) hegemony so they don't have to fear Russia whatsoever in that regard.   The plane events are just geopolitical stunts as long as no one makes any fatal mistakes.   It's still childish and foolish but hey, governments are always doing stupid, foolish things, even to make a PR stunt.

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## Hanna

> .................. 
> Forget about them.

 Are you crazy! This is the best investment I've made in my life other than some China shares.
Система gained 153% in 5 days and it's trading at less than 25% of the value from last year. 
I will make over 1000% profit on this, when the Russian economy goes back to the level of last year. And that will absolutely happen before my retirement for goodness sake. (It's a self invested pension plan) I can't lose.

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## Serge_spb

> I understand she had already converted all her savings to Russian rubles

  
I wonder if Hanna or anyone else here are able to see the connection between: 
1. "System" shares growing from *6 to 14 roubles* (!) in one day, 18 December
(check АФК Система, акция обыкновенная. , section "График архивных значений..." 
.... and this 
2. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6b5cd064-8...44feabdc0.html 
(Russian investigators release billionaire Vladimir Yevtushenkov - December 17, 2014 7:54 pm) 
Russian economy is like: Putin said smth, shares go up, Putin said smth else - shares go down. Anyone notable got arrested
(ordinary thing for Russia - google Yukos history) - shares plunge immideately. 
In a long term perspective that is extremely risky choice. Since "АФК Система" contatains "Rosneft" oil company.
And you can`t predict if oil prices will go up. I believe, they won`t. Even in 1-2 years. 
Same with Gazprom. 
P.S. You can keep "Magnit", though. That`s a great company. (Food retail: stable and fast growing)

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## 14Russian

> [I 
> Russian economy is like: Putin said smth, shares go up, Putin said smth else - shares go down. Anyone notable got arrested
> (ordinary thing for Russia - google Yukos history) - shares plunge immideately. 
> In a long term perspective that is extremely risky choice. Since "АФК Система" contatains "Rosneft" oil company.
> And you can`t predict if oil prices will go up. I believe, they won`t. Even in 1-2 years.

 Don't worry.... Putin is an economic mastermind.... in 2 years, all will be better.  ::   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q5KBPHxkP4

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## 14Russian

Putin bails out his friends... while Russian serfs (i.e. citizens) deal with rising prices and struggle, financially...  Putin Gives $8 Billion Contracts To Sanctioned Russian Oligarch Friends - Business Insider 
"Companies linked to Russian billionaire Arkady Rotenberg and Gennady Timchenko, both close allies of Russian President Vladimir Putin, were given contracts worth 309 billion roubles (£3.6 billion, $8.1 billion) since western sanctions were imposed on the men in March. 
SMP Bank, which is also subject to sanctions and unable to trade with companies in the EU and the US, received a 10-year state loan of about 100 billion roubles at an interest rate of 0.51%, according to Bloomberg. The money was provided under the condition that Rotenberg's firm rescue another Russian bank, Mosoblbank, which had fallen into difficulties."

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## Eric C.

> I wonder if Hanna or anyone else here are able to see the connection between: 
> 1. "System" shares growing from *6 to 14 roubles* (!) in one day, 18 December
> (check АФК Система, акция обыкновенная. , section "График архивных значений..." 
> .... and this 
> 2. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6b5cd064-8...44feabdc0.html 
> (Russian investigators release billionaire Vladimir Yevtushenkov - December 17, 2014 7:54 pm) 
> Russian economy is like: Putin said smth, shares go up, Putin said smth else - shares go down. Anyone notable got arrested
> (ordinary thing for Russia - google Yukos history) - shares plunge immideately. 
> In a long term perspective that is extremely risky choice. Since "АФК Система" contatains "Rosneft" oil company.
> ...

 I had no idea about that guy, but that 150% growth in a day did seem extremely strange to me. Even if there was no sanctions/oil/currency rates background, such growth alone would look pretty suspicious, and I would probably refrain from becoming a shareholder of such a company. It's an indicator of something serious going on in its internals. I think you're right about this - there's no correlation between that temp growth and the value of its shares in a long term perspective. 
Btw, isn't that dude on the pic the ruler of a country where $1 is traded for more than 10,000 in their local currency?  ::

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## Hanna

Sistema is a telecoms & IT company.  
Of course that's going to grow in Russia, it's a government strategy in RU to grow this kind of industry, plus Russia is overall a growth market, as a BRIC country.
It doesn't have to grow immediately - my retirement is over 25 years off!
I didn't know about the CEOs stint in prison or about him being released. I wasn't looking for quick profit.  
The only risk I see with investing in Russia, is that the Communist party wins the election and starts to de-privatize or confiscate businesses without regard for the shareholders. Or that Russia's enemies manage to orchestrate some kind of neocon revolution and puts a pro-West puppet in charge of Russia. I think the chance of either thing happening is small. 
Also - with Russia, you have to actively monitor the shares. Quick takeovers seem very common in the CIS market  
There is no way that any US sanctions can hold Russia down in a longer perspective! BRICs are the future economically and Russia is part of that. A temporary glitch will change nothing. Quite the opposite - now is the time to invest in Russia.  
There are not a lot of Russian companies trading on the London stock exchange, and in some cases purchases go through dollar - Risky if the dollar crashes! When that happened, it will not recover since the dollar is a bubble. 
I bought something called "Raven Russia" too, apparently that's a property company in Russia.  
I have less than 10% exposure to Russia in this portfolio so the risk is very limited.

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## Serge_spb

> I had no idea about that guy, but that 150% growth in a day did seem extremely strange to me. Even if there was no sanctions/oil/currency rates background, such growth alone would look pretty suspicious, and I would probably refrain from becoming a shareholder of such a company. It's an indicator of something serious going on in its internals.

 Exactly.   

> Sistema is a telecoms & IT company.

 No offends, but you should read first what do other post here. Not only write down your beliefs. It`s always kinda weird when someone not enough competent is trying to tell me what is going on in my own country. 
АФК Система recently lost its large part - the oil company called Bashneft (I`ve made a mistake in earlier post, mixing its name). Which was purchased by Sistema in 2009. And got nothing in return. Welcome to Russia. That`s a real act of nationalization. It`s CEO finally got released (normal scheme for Russia: arrest for nothing->make him scared->take his company with no objections...) «Башнефть» перешла в собственность государства :: Бизнес ::  
Yes, they still have got another notable active - MTS, the mobile operator. But don`t  think that government or anyone else gives a sht about its future. Sistemas shares fell significantly since Evtushenkoves arrest and I doubt that without oil incomes they will ever recover. АФК Система, акция обыкновенная. [/url] (check them in 3 years perspective - График архивных значений.... on АФК Система, акция обыкновенная. ). MTS is not the only major operator, btw, others are Megafon, Beeline and Tele2. If MTS will disappear one day - no one will suffer much. 
And concerning communists - a complete laughter. Obviously you don`t understand the Russian reality. Because they will never win any elections. Simply because we don`t have any elections. And, moreover, there are few real communists in Russia these days. That`s a fake party. The real risk of turning to mass nationalisations and plain economy ended with 1993 political crisis. They won`t have any chance to rule the country in old-faschoned manner. So funny, that many europeans don`t get that. Russians would better support Putin than those clowns.   

> There is no way that any US sanctions can hold Russia down in a longer perspective!

 The country is falling into big big trouble fast. Since you still do not see the real problems of russians economy - I feel sorrow for you. I wrote enough in my neighbour thread. Sanctions are nothing but a catalyzer. There even was no need for USA to try hard (just like in 1991).

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## Hanna

Yes Serge, duh!!  
if I thought the communists were going to win any elections, I would hardly invest in Russia would I?  I invested exactly because I think Russia will remain capitalistic and that the economy will grow in the longer perspective.  
But the Communists is the second largest party in Russian politics, so it's not unfeasable that they would win, is it? If Putin completely messes up, then they are the second largest party. If the biggest country messes up, the second biggest country picks up the votes.  
It regularly happens in other countries and Russian poltics are more volatile than most. Just because it hasn't changed for a while, doesn't mean it never will. Only a very young person would think that status quo is forever. But as I said, I don't believe that's feasible in the least.  
Like I said I already make a considerable amount of money on this investment so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not regretting this investment. I made over £3000 in one week with a total investment in Russian shares, of £5500. So frankly, I don't care if you think it's stupid.  
If you read the British press on investing in Russia, most analysts say this opportunity to invest in Russian shares at rock bottom prices is too good to pass over.

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## UhOhXplode

> Who cares about Sweden?

 I can think of at least 7 epic reasons to care about Sweden... massively! 
1. In Flames
2. Amon Amarth
3. Dead by April
4. Meshuggah
5. Sonic Syndicate
6. Opeth
7. Nightrage 
Any questions?  ::  Swedish metal pwns... just saying. 
Nothing yet about the retaliatory sanctions... in response to the new sanctions against Crimea, Russia. Obama said he wouldn't issue any new sanctions against Russia. But the next day... Never listen to a liar.

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## Serge_spb

> But the Communists is the second largest party in Russian politics, so it's not unfeasable that they would win, is it? If Putin completely messes up, then they are the second largest party. .

 It is not the party. 
Have to say twice the same thing. Not a real political power, but a bunch of actors, employed by Kremlin and United Russia. In order to pretend that they participate in legislative process. Part of United Russia, if you wish. 
Still difficult to understand?   

> Like I said I already make a considerable amount of money on this investment so you'll have to excuse me if I'm not regretting this investment. I made over £3000 in one week with a total investment in Russian shares, if £5500. So frankly, I don't care if you think it's stupid.

 Take your 10 000 pounds (am I right) and invest in something else. As quickly as it is possible.
Avoid russian market as hell. 
Anyway, that`s your life, you choose.

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## Eric C.

> I can think of at least 7 epic reasons to care about Sweden... massively! 
> 1. In Flames
> 2. Amon Amarth
> 3. Dead by April
> 4. Meshuggah
> 5. Sonic Syndicate
> 6. Opeth
> 7. Nightrage 
> Any questions?  Swedish metal pwns... just saying..

 Yeah, exactly! Btw, my favorite ones of those are In Flames & Sonic Syndicate. And btw, this has been one of the main reasons I have so much respect for that country, that the Swedish metal bands pwn ! =)) 
I just hope that lefties and commies from that country are rather an exception than a regular rule. (Вытерто. Л.)

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## hddscan

> Avoid russian market as hell.

 I think market is not your strong side.
Russian market is one of the most promising at the moment, considering the recent fall of practically all Russian shares.  
I think you need to stop operating with emotions and start operating with facts. Although I understand that people that scream все пропало, шеф! are the most common kind in Russia currently, considering economical shock. Does not mean that you are right in every statement though.

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## Lampada

Не принуждайте меня закрыть эти горячие политические темы из-за переходов на личности.

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## 14Russian

> Не принуждайте меня закрыть эти горячие политические темы из-за переходов на личности.

 Where is the problem?   I think it's refreshing that a Russian, Serge_spb, is giving an accurate description of what is happening in Russia compared to the neo-Soviet rhethoric that dominates the political forum.   It's the reason topics on the Ukraine conflict is censored.   
I totally understand Serge_spb's frustration with Russians who sugarcoat problems in his country and ignorant Westerners who are left-wingers and cling to anyone who goes against the Western hegemony even though they are not informed regarding Russia.   
There is a spin on anything in Russia that portrays it in the best possible light since most if not all mainstream media is controlled by the Kremlin.   Ownership is concentrated in Putin/Kremlin-friendly entrepreneurs so it's difficult to obtain an objective report.   When Western sources report something negative, it's accused of propaganda.   So, I guess nothing 'bad' or worrisome happens in Russia.   Or, Putin will explain with 'cornered bear' bedtime stories.   ::

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## Lampada

> Where is the problem?   I think it's refreshing that a Russian, Serge_spb, is giving an accurate description of what is happening in Russia compared to the neo-Soviet rhethoric that dominates the political forum.   It's the reason topics on the Ukraine conflict is censored.   
> I totally understand Serge_spb's frustration with Russians who sugarcoat problems in his country and ignorant Westerners who are left-wingers and cling to anyone who goes against the Western hegemony even though they are not informed regarding Russia.   
> There is a spin on anything in Russia that portrays it in the best possible light since most if not all mainstream media is controlled by the Kremlin.   Ownership is concentrated in Putin/Kremlin-friendly entrepreneurs so it's difficult to obtain an objective report.   When Western sources report something negative, it's accused of propaganda.   So, I guess nothing 'bad' or worrisome happens in Russia.   Or, Putin will explain with 'cornered bear' bedtime stories.

 Это всё мимо. Ты русский знаешь?  Наверное,  "_из-за переходов на личности_" не понял.

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## UhOhXplode

> Yeah, exactly! Btw, my favorite ones of those are In Flames & Sonic Syndicate. And btw, this has been one of the main reasons I have so much respect for that country, that the Swedish metal bands pwn ! =)) ...

 *Fives / bro fist* Mine too but hey, if you like In Flames then you totally could get all over Dead by April. The new Let The World Know album they dropped last spring's just so totally amazing! Highly recommended. Spin "Beautiful Nightmare" and see. 
2 Swedish bands I almost forgot - At The Gates & Vildhjarta. The latter's seriously progressive.   

> ... It's the reason topics on the Ukraine conflict is censored.

 No. Serge_spb and other members have contributed a lot of valid points to the debates. Also, I haven't seen anything but irrelevant personal comments being omitted.    

> ... Westerners who are left-wingers and cling to anyone who goes against the Western hegemony...

 Too black and white. I'm a conservative and my parents are both Republicans. They voted for Romney in the 2012 elections. It's more about logic than political affiliation. 
EDIT: 
China has called Russia an irreplaceable partner on the world stage and China has made agreements to help get Russia through the financial crisis. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-1...ency-swap.html 
That's an awesome turn of events!
Btw, the Angara-5 heavy lift rocket will be test launched at Plesetsk, in Arkhangelsk, tomorrow. They moved the launch back 2 days. It will replace the Proton rocket.

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## diogen_

Валерия, Газманов и Кобзон - Песня про санкции (Голубой огонек) ::

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## Meerkat

Нынешнее развитие

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## SergeMak

An interesting article: http://plata.com.mx/mplata/articulos...idarticulo=260 
"President Franklin Delano Roosevelt when asked in 1940 why he did not embargo oil to Japan explained that this would have been a declaration of war. He launched the embargo on July 25, 1941. So any suggestion that the EU and the United States are not in a state of war with Russia is false."

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## Crocodile

I think the article is not too bad, however it seems too far hysterical and far reaching to me. First, there's fundamental difference between the energy (oil) embargo and any other type of embargo. In 1940s Japan related heavily on oil to the extent that: "_[...] leading the Imperial Japanese Navy to estimate that it had less than two years of bunker oil remaining [...]_" Events leading to the attack on Pearl Harbor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So, to draw a proper analogy, if Russia would stop exporting gas to Europe (as the article suggests) that would be Russian declaration of war against Europe (which I think would never happen). So, the present US and European's sanctions are way too far from being a declaration of war.  
Second, the proposed plan to dismember Ukraine as a way to please Russia and Germany seems to be too stretched out. As the latest events had shown, Russia is ok if the sovereign Ukraine stays neutral. (And by the latest events I mean the Agreement on the Settlement of Crisis in Ukraine dated 21 February, 2014.) Unfortunately, as the opposition who have subsequently gained power demonstrated their determination not to respect the agreements and, subsequently, exceed their authority, Russia was forced into alternative ways to ensure their security.   
Third, the article provides pitches scattered all over which make it look less realistic and more biased, like a demand to remove the missile base from Europe since, allegedly, Russian territory is fully covered by the nuclear-submarines'-carried Tridents anyways, so why the waste? That assumes that the military guys are stupid and that is not the case. The basics that the article's author is to be aware of is that the keyword in nuclear strategy is *diversification* and *proliferation*. The principal states that it is possible to destroy each and every component of the nuclear warhead delivery system, but it is never possible to destroy all of the components, hence rendering the assault useless. And so on.

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## 14Russian

These types of Russians support stuff like this:  Vladimir Zhirinovsky proposes to bomb Germany and burn Paris - - World in the joinfo.com  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l9R0Rr5I_U 
Putinoids really are mentally disturbed.

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## SergeMak

First of all. Zhirinovsky is not a "putinoid", he is pro-Zhirinovsky. Now he sees fit to support Putin - he does it. Tomorrow the situation changes and his views will change dramatically. 
Second. This video has been edited and very roughly - it's clearly seen. The frames were cut in the middle of a phrase.

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## SergeMak

Well, well... Let's see the original version of Zhirinovsky's speech?    
All the words mixed up and the sense completely changed. And 14Russian once again approved his lier status. No surprise.

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## 14Russian

> First of all. Zhirinovsky is not a "putinoid", he is pro-Zhirinovsky. Now he sees fit to support Putin - he does it. Tomorrow the situation changes and his views will change dramatically. 
> Second. This video has been edited and very roughly - it's clearly seen. The frames were cut in the middle of a phrase.

 (Deleted. L.)   Zhrinovsky is a Putinoid.   He's Putin's puppet - controlled opposition.   Anyway, maybe you are trying to achieve your quota of paid Kremlin posts.

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## 14Russian

> All the words mixed up and the sense completely changed. And 14Russian once again approved his lier status. No surprise.

 You don't know what the definition of lying is.   But, your Kremlin tricks won't work.  ::   
A Russian sent me the info.    Rech fyurera Zhirinovskogo. Razbombit Germaniyu. 
Putinoids will be Putinoids.  ::

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## SergeMak

Zhirinovsky is one of the oldest Russian politicians. His party exists since 1989. He used to be a candidate for all the presidential elections in Russia beginning 1991. Nobody even heard about Putin at that time. He survived the break-down of the Soviet Union, the Presidency of Yeltsin, he's probably going to survive everyone and everything.
But I am not going to discuss anything with you anymore, because it would mean to level with you and I cannot let myself come down so low. Западло.

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## 14Russian

> Zhirinovsky is one of the oldest Russian politicians. His party exists since 1989. He used to be a candidate for all the presidential elections in Russia beginning 1991. Nobody even heard about Putin at that time. He survived the break-down of the Soviet Union, the Presidency of Yeltsin, he's probably going to survive everyone and everything.
> But I am not going to discuss anything with you anymore, because it would mean to level with you and I cannot let myself come down so low. Западло.

 So what if he is one of the oldest ones?   He's even considered a clown in Russia but it's well known, he's a Putin puppet.   He's used by the Kremlin.   He has free reign to say whatever, in the Duma. In fact, more than one Russian I talk to has conceded this.   I don't know what you are trying to say here - except info that is irrelevant to the argument. 
'But I am not going to discuss anything with you anymore, because it would mean to level with you and I cannot let myself come down so low. Западло.'
Um, okay?!?   ::    Делай что хочешь.

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## 14Russian

Apparently, Russia needs more sanctions? 
Terrorists trained in Russia are caught after trying to kill Ukrainians during a peace march.  https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyi...es-381532.html 
Putin must have to recruit people with major mental problems but I guess that circumstance is quite prevalent after reading posts here and other places where these sentiments exist.   The amount of support and Putin/Kremlin sympathism is too great to simply declare it's a coincidence.

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## hddscan

> Terrorists trained in Russia are caught after trying to kill Ukrainians during a peace march.

 Yeah, about that 
1. Terrorist attack happened at ~13:30 02.22.2015
2. Turchinov said that terrorists were caught (note was published at 15:30, same day) - http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2015/02/22/7059383/  

> Секретарь СНБО сообщил, что СБУ совместно с МВД начали антитеррористическую операцию "в результате которой уже задержаны 4 участника подрыва и изъято оружие, *в том числе гранатомет*".

 3. On a video (published at 20:30, same day) where terrorists were "caught" it's night, so it cannot be between 13:30 and 15:30. It's just begs a question why to make a fake again? 
And here is that video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RT8a0o9JscE. See 2:15 on a video for *в том числе гранатомет* 
Since this video is obviously fake/staged begs another question, who were the actual terrorists? 
Some food for thought Плод. Должен. Созреть. - Теракт в Харькове 22.02.2015: Неряшливая и бездарная провокация СБУ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht-3x0V1A-4 
The West must have to recruit people with major mental problems to actually believe in that fake but I guess that circumstance is quite prevalent after reading posts here and other places where these sentiments exist.

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## Basil77

> ...a peace march.

 Lol. Poor "peaceful" nazi militants killed by their own masters once again, like it was on Maidan.

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## Lampada

> *Lol*. Poor "peaceful" nazi militants killed by their own masters once again, like it was on Maidan.

 "Lol"?  Ого, как смешно, когда люди гибнут.

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## Basil77

> "LOL"?  Ого, как смешно, когда люди гибнут.

 Люди? Мне абсолютно наплевать, сколько нацистов из падальёнов и активистов "Правого сектора" подорвались на бомбе, подложенной СБУ по команде ЦРУ-шников из Лэнгли. А вот когда каждый день на Донбассе у себя в домах гибнут ни в чём не повинные дети, женщины и старики под снарядами доблестных украинских вояк - это действительно трагедия. Только несколько дней назад был случай, когда родители спрятали детей в ванную во время обстрела, чтобы осколками не посекло, а туда попал снаряд. В западных СМИ про это не пишут и такое не показывают. Так что вот по ком, а по этим дохлым уродам с "мирного марша" я плакать точно не собираюсь.

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## Lampada

> Люди? Мне абсолютно наплевать, сколько нацистов из падальёнов и активистов "Правого сектора" подорвались на бомбе, подложенной СБУ по команде ЦРУ-шников из Лэнгли. А вот когда каждый день на Донбассе у себя в домах гибнут ни в чём не повинные дети, женщины и старики под снарядами доблестных украинских вояк - это действительно трагедия. Только несколько дней назад был случай, когда родители спрятали детей в ванную во время обстрела, чтобы осколками не посекло, а туда попал снаряд. В западных СМИ про это не пишут и такое не показывают. Так что вот по ком, а по этим дохлым уродам с "мирного марша" я плакать точно не собираюсь.

 Получаешь предупреждение за троллизм.

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## wanja



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## hddscan

I think that last video is way too simplifying.
Let's not forget that:
1. If there would no buyer then there would be no income for a seller (like Russia and China)
2. If there would be no way to pay debt it wouldn't mean that life or economy would stop on that. Russia went through a default for example and it's still alive and kicking.

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## 14Russian

(Deleted. L.)
Any Russian (national - who knows what group you belong to) who promotes Putin and the status quo that much is pathetic.

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## Eric C.

> (Deleted. L.)
> Any Russian (national - who knows what group you belong to) who promotes Putin and the status quo that much is pathetic.

 If Рutin promoted the "status quo", he would have Russia block the Russia-Ukraine border just as he learned about the crazy nutjobs there fighting everyone "in the name of Russians". Looking at what it is now, it can't be called anything but an aggressive war. And we all know who takes whose side in that conflict, so what "status quo" are you talking about?

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## 14Russian

> If Рutin promoted the "status quo", he would have Russia block the Russia-Ukraine border just as he learned about the crazy nutjobs there fighting everyone "in the name of Russians". Looking at what it is now, it can't be called anything but an aggressive war. And we all know who takes whose side in that conflict, so what "status quo" are you talking about?

 The status quo in general or the status quo regarding Ukraine?   Regarding Ukraine, the status quo is to interfere, engage but deny doing anything.   What did you think I meant?  Separatist fighter admits Russian tanks, troops 'decisive in eastern Ukraine battles' - Telegraph  https://news.vice.com/article/russia...ing-in-ukraine  Putin admits annexation of Crimea put in motion weeks before referendum - World - Israel News | Haaretz 
The Kremlin denied having soldiers that were blocking Ukrainian personnel - 'little green men' but later conceded - when it didn't matter any more.   The Kremlin/Putin confessed to having a plan to annex Crimea before the 'referendum' - before accusations of closing down Ukr. TV/media and the rest of unethical/immoral interference claims.   So, there are some occasions in which the Russian government concede their interference but the status quo is to deny, distract and accuse - until they're willing to admit A or B - and on their own terms.

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## diogen_

Putin's economic team plays Houdini.    

> Last week, the Russian central bank's currency reserves increased for the first time since last July, showing that the economy may have moved past the panic caused by last year's oil price slump. Perhaps Russia's improving indicators will convince Western governments that economic sanctions are having no discernible effect and that President Vladimir Putin's regime and the country it runs aren't facing imminent collapse.

  ::   Putin's economic team plays Houdini - Chicago Tribune

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## Lampada

What Sanctions? The Russian Economy Is Growing Again  BY BILL POWELL / APRIL 13, 2015 2:33 PM EDT   
http://www.newsweek.com/putin-was-right-be-confident-about-russias-economy-321934

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## UhOhXplode

> *Apparently, Russia needs more sanctions?* 
> Terrorists trained in Russia are caught after trying to kill Ukrainians during a peace march.  https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyi...es-381532.html 
> Putin must have to recruit people with major mental problems but I guess that circumstance is quite prevalent after reading posts here and other places where these sentiments exist.   The amount of support and Putin/Kremlin sympathism is too great to simply declare it's a coincidence.

 Needs more sanctions? Not really. The West has already proven how unreliable they are as business partners. Or is that hostile? I mean they did do everything they could do to try and crush the competition, right? Imo some of those countries should be sued for fraud and they should all be sued for slander.
About the Ukrainian Secret Service fairy tale - I would believe the sky was green with bright purple dots before I would believe anything they said. 
@ Lampada:
I'm not surprised that the Russian economy is growing again. Vladimir Putin brought the economy way up after the Yeltsin economic stagnation. And I noticed he was making all the right moves during the crisis. And now with Unionpay and all the plans for rebuilding industries in Russia, the future look really good. I also believe the Russian economy will grow even more and faster than the economists are predicting. 
Btw, happy May Day, everybody!  ::  I'll be watching the parade.

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## Hanna

To the people who critisized my purchase of Russian shares in December. 
YOUR LOSS people! 
Here is how these random shares performed since I bought them in November or December last year.  
Sistema +214%    
Amur Minerals +33.3%  
Gazprom  +34% 
Magnit  +40%
Raven Russia -5.3% 
VTB Bank +30%  
Average growth of my Russian shares in five months: 58 %   
Compare the with the average development of the FTSE or Dow Jones since then.  
With this level of growth I'll have 100% growth in under a year.. 
Russia, a loser country, doomed to failure? I think not! 
Russia has a fraction of the debt level of the USA, or even the UK.
It has substantive verified gold reserves, as opposed to the USA. They don't have the increasingly complex immigration problems Europe has, and they are not ruining their economy with endless wars and making enemies of everyone, like the USA. It may be a bit tough for Russia now, but the long term prospectives are good. 
I have kept an eye on events in Ukraine and Donbass, as sad and tragic as they are. After making sure I heard both sides of the story, I don't see that Russia has done anything sufficiently immoral for me to turn my back. Certainly not in comparison with the UK where I live.

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## Hanna

> If Рutin promoted the "status quo", he would have Russia block the Russia-Ukraine border just as he learned about the crazy nutjobs there fighting everyone "in the name of Russians". Looking at what it is now, it can't be called anything but an aggressive war. And we all know who takes whose side in that conflict, so what "status quo" are you talking about?

 If he had closed the border he would have been criticized for doing that instead!
I.e. *"Putin uses Soviet tactics and stops free travel"  "Families split by Putin's blockade", "Putin confiscates passports"* would be the headlines we'd see then! There is always a double standard when reporting about Russia.   
If the West does Action A, it's for freedom, democracy and human rights. 
If Russia also does Action A, then in that context it's a sign of "dictatorship", "infringement of human rights" and "aggression".  
Nothing that Russia could have done would have been acceptable.  
If Russia had tried to identify the people who wanted to go to Donbass and fight - by spying on citizens, then it would have been criticized for that instead. It would have also  had to physically prevent people from travelling (i.e. human rights) 
It seem some Chechens, some extreme Russian nationalists, and guys who simply like to fight did go to Donbass on their own initiative. But what can the modern Russian state do to prevent that?  
It's always been the case in Europe, that volunteers sometimes join in wars in neighbouring countries, for family reasons, historical, religious or ideological reasons. It's nothing new about the fact that some Russians decided to do that.  
 Russia clearly didn't instigate or want this new cold war.  
Whatever action Russia takes, it's always interpreted in the darkest possible light in Western media. This time Russia is being dragged into a cold war against its will and seems largely innocent if you take a step back and view both sides of the argument.  
Finally, the proof is in the pudding: Every time Western countries interfere in foreign countries, it ends up worse than it was before, with suffering, refugees and hardship. Maidan would not have resulted in the overthrow of the government, unless Western powers had been pulling the strings. That's what started the problem.  
Anyone who says they believe in democracy would have respected that Yanukovich was democratically elected and that there'd be an election the following year, i.e. now.  
Russia doesn't, for instance, spur on the recent riots in American cities, or make demands that the US president needs to step down because some people are unhappy with his government.  
Closing the UA/RU border as Eric proposes is simply not realistic. It's a very long border between to very large countries. It would have been cruel to people on both sides who have family across the border - there was no border there for 70 years, then relatively free movement for 20 years. Eric, apparently wants to build walls and close borders!

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## Eric C.

> If he had closed the border he would have been criticized for doing that instead!
> I.e. *"Putin uses Soviet tactics and stops free travel"  "Families split by Putin's blockade", "Putin confiscates passports"* would be the headlines we'd see then! There is always a double standard when reporting about Russia.   
> If the West does Action A, it's for freedom, democracy and human rights. 
> If Russia also does Action A, then in that context it's a sign of "dictatorship", "infringement of human rights" and "aggression".  
> Nothing that Russia could have done would have been acceptable.  
> If Russia had tried to identify the people who wanted to go to Donbass and fight - by spying on citizens, then it would have been criticized for that instead. It would have also  had to physically prevent people from travelling (i.e. human rights) 
> It seem some Chechens, some extreme Russian nationalists, and guys who simply like to fight did go to Donbass on their own initiative. But what can the modern Russian state do to prevent that?  
> It's always been the case in Europe, that volunteers sometimes join in wars in neighbouring countries, for family reasons, historical, religious or ideological reasons. It's nothing new about the fact that some Russians decided to do that.  
>  Russia clearly didn't instigate or want this new cold war.  
> ...

 So, am I getting it right, you say no Russian military or heavy weapons have been crossing the border ever since, and all who have were ordinary crazy Russian individuals, whom the Russian government would actually like to stop, but just doesn't know how ?

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## Lampada

> So, am I getting it right, you say no Russian military or heavy weapons have been crossing the border ever since, and all who have were ordinary crazy Russian individuals, whom the Russian government would actually like to stop, but just doesn't know how ?

  У каждого на этот счёт может быть своё мнение, основанное на различных источниках информации,  так что не нужно задавать провокационные вопросы.

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## Eric C.

> У каждого на этот счёт может быть своё мнение, основанное на различных источниках информации,  так что не нужно задавать провокационные вопросы.

 Я постарался как мог, чтобы этот вопрос не звучал провокационно, а только лишь уточняюще. Что ж, дождемся ответа, чтобы увидеть удалось ли это мне. =))

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## Eric C.

> To the people who critisized my purchase of Russian shares in December. 
> YOUR LOSS people!

 I sincerely congratulate you on making some profit of it, but you have to realize one simple thing: it's not OUR gain or loss, it's YOURS! That said, you probably shouldn't get engaged in market trading just to prove your point to your opponents. But it's all up to you. Good luck with that!

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