# Forum Learning Russian Language Pronunciation, Speech & Accent  Pronunciation of "x"

## diadia vania

Don

----------


## Misnomer

same as "h" in
"help","hi","hut" etc

----------


## TATY

No it's not the SAME as H, it's similar to H.

----------


## gRomoZeka

The difference between the two is so minor it really doesn't matter. Incorrect pronouncation of soft and hard consonants makes a noticable accent, not "wrong" "x", "п", "в", etc.

----------


## laxxy

> The difference between the two is so minor it really doesn't matter. Incorrect pronouncation of soft and hard consonants makes a noticable accent, not "wrong" "x", "п", "в", etc.

 I must agree, while "x" and "h" are quite different and mixing them up creates a very noticeable accent in English, in Russian it does not sound nearly quite as bad. Soft and hard consonants, and mixing in the "y" sound are definitely a larger issue.
It doesn't mean that you shouldn't try getting it right of course. Sorry, I don't have a good advice on how to do it, it's a bit hard to describe.

----------


## TATY

> The difference between the two is so minor it really doesn't matter. Incorrect pronouncation of soft and hard consonants makes a noticable accent, not "wrong" "x", "п", "в", etc.

 P and П
V and В are exactly the same though. The only difference is in aspiration 
Х and H are not. You probably can't do a proper English H, and probably say something like Russian X which is why you think they are very close. 
They are not. (Incidentally, Ukrainian Г is the closest you can get to English H). 
English H is a Glottal frictive. It is produced at the glottis, the flap that closes off the 'wind pipe' from the 'food pipe'. It is at the back of the throat, and down a bit. 
Rusian X is a Velar frictive, produced at the back of the tongue, at the same position as K. The difference in location of the Glotis and where X is pronounced is large. 
[The difference between Ukrainian Г and Enlgish H, is that the Ukrainian letter is a VOICED Glottal frictive, whereas the English is VoiceLESS. 
Voiced = with vibrating vocal cords
Voicelss = just air, not vibration of vocal cords.
E.g. V is a VOICED labiodental frictive, F is a VOICELESS labiodental frictive.] 
So, yes, maybe if you mispronounce X is doesn't matter than much. But you can no way compare the difference between Russian В and English V, with the difference between Russian X and English Н. 
Afterall, if Russian X was that close to English H, where do we transliterate it as Kh, and not just H?

----------


## Оля

I think "kh" is not correct. I don't understand, why do you use "kh". "H" in "hut" is closer.

----------


## TATY

> I think "kh" is not correct. I don't understand, why you use "kh". "H" in "hut" is closer.

 You've misunderstood. I am talking about *transliteration*. I didn't say it sounded like kh.  
E.g. Хрущёв = Khrushchev по-английски.
Астрахань = Astrakhan

----------


## Оля

So do you pronounce this "kh" like russian "х"?

----------


## laxxy

> So, yes, maybe if you mispronounce X is doesn't matter than much. But you can no way compare the difference between Russian В and English V, with the difference between Russian X and English Н. 
> Afterall, if Russian X was that close to English H, where do we transliterate it as Kh, and not just H?

 You are probably right in theory, but the accent perception is largely a psychological phenomenon, and it crucially depends on the language one speaks. 
In English mispronouncing "h" as "x" stands out for me, while the inverse in Russian does not. See, there are no other sounds similar to "h" or "x" in Russian, and so an English "h" falls into an (almost) acceptable range. It may sound very slightly unusual, but nowhere near as bad as how the Russian "x" sounds in English, to me at least. 
Also, in past I have actually asked a few ppl what sound they thought was closer to "h" -- Ukrainian "g" or Russian "x", and most said that they are about equally bad. One interesting question that arises here is what is the right way to transliterate "h" into Ukrainian, and there are two camps on this issue.

----------


## TATY

> So do you pronounce this "kh" like russian "х"?

 Kh should be pronounced as Russian X, but most English speakers don't know Russian and will just pronounce it as K. 
The usual way people pronounce Хрущёв is "Krooshev", or "Krooshov"

----------


## TATY

> Originally Posted by TATY  So, yes, maybe if you mispronounce X is doesn't matter than much. But you can no way compare the difference between Russian В and English V, with the difference between Russian X and English Н. 
> Afterall, if Russian X was that close to English H, where do we transliterate it as Kh, and not just H?   You are probably right in theory, but the accent perception is largely a psychological phenomenon, and it crucially depends on the language one speaks. 
> In English mispronouncing "h" as "x" stands out for me, while the inverse in Russian does not. See, there are no other sounds similar to "h" or "x" in Russian, and so an English "h" falls into an (almost) acceptable range. It may sound very slightly unusual, but nowhere near as bad as how the Russian "x" sounds in English, to me at least. 
> Also, in past I have actually asked a few ppl what sound they thought was closer to "h" -- Ukrainian "g" or Russian "x", and most said that they are about equally bad. One interesting question that arises here is what is the right way to transliterate "h" into Ukrainian, and there are two camps on this issue.

 To me, Ukrianian Г is much closer to English H, than Russian or Ukrainian X.

----------


## gRomoZeka

> Originally Posted by Оля  So do you pronounce this "kh" like russian "х"?   Kh should be pronounced as Russian X, but most English speakers don't know Russian and will just pronounce it as K. 
> The usual way people pronounce Хрущёв is "Krooshev", or "Krooshov"

 That's why it's so much better to transliterate (and to pronounce) it as "h"!   ::

----------


## Оля

> Kh should be pronounced as Russian X, but most English speakers don't know Russian and will just pronounce it as K.

 That's why I don't like "kh"!

----------


## Оля

> Originally Posted by TATY        Originally Posted by Оля  So do you pronounce this "kh" like russian "х"?   Kh should be pronounced as Russian X, but most English speakers don't know Russian and will just pronounce it as K. 
> The usual way people pronounce Хрущёв is "Krooshev", or "Krooshov"   That's why it's so much better to transliterate (and to pronounce) it as "h"!

 YES!!!   ::

----------


## TATY

> Originally Posted by TATY        Originally Posted by Оля  So do you pronounce this "kh" like russian "х"?   Kh should be pronounced as Russian X, but most English speakers don't know Russian and will just pronounce it as K. 
> The usual way people pronounce Хрущёв is "Krooshev", or "Krooshov"   That's why it's so much better to transliterate (and to pronounce) it as "h"!

 Transliteration's primary goal is not about pronunciation though, it is about preserving spelling. 
There is a similar problem with Hebrew. There is a letter which is a VERY guttural H (it sounds horrible to me), and Arabic has it too. 
The standard transliteration of the letter is Ch. But English people think it's Ch as in Chair. 
The problem is there is another letter in Hebrew which is the same as English H. 
Hannukah is also spelt Channukah 
The final H is the letter Heh, which is the same as English H
The initial H/Ch is the nasty sounding letter. 
And in Ukrainian they have Г which is almost the same as Enlgish H, and Х which is the same as Russian X 
So they have to disinguish between the two, so Г = Н, Х = Kh. Also Г sounds much more like English H. 
The combination Kh is used partly because, Russian Х is pronounced at the same location as the letter K. 
K is a Velar plosive. Velar decribed the location of the obsrutcion of airflow, which is between the back of the tong and roof of the mouth. Plosive describes the manner of the airflow. Plosive is like an explosion. The airflow is completely obstructed briefly, building up pressure, which when released make a K sound. This is why you can't make a continous K sound. You can only do it once, then again, then again.  
Russian Х is a Velar frictive. Frictive means the airflow is partially obsrtucted, but there is just enough gap to allow a steady air flow.   
To pronounce Russian X, the learner should say a [k] sound, as in King or Cat, and pay attention to how back of the touch is touching the roof ot eh mouth. When K is pronouced, the back of the tongue blocks the airflow. 
The precise location of the contact should be identified, by repeating and paying close attention. 
Say K, K, K, K, K. Then say whispers of K, K, K. Now try and make a 'silent' K.  
Hold the tongue in position to produce a K. Gently try and force some air through, allowing the tongue to allow only the least amount of air through. You should hear a soft sound that sounds a bit like an aeroplane engine  :P

----------


## chaika

All the same, learn to differentiate /k/ and /x/. You never want to say the wrong one in phrases like this: Куй железо, пока горячо.

----------


## Rounder22

stop the Madness!!! lol I guess X is the most difficult letter in the russian cyrillic alphabet .... it is the one letter i have the most difficulty with... in my books they say it sounds like the CH in Bach or Loch... but to me that sounds like "K"....  but from what I can gather Russian X sounds closer to the combination of KH .... perhaps if i heard some simple russian words with the X it would help...

----------


## Оля

It's not K at all. Absolutely.

----------


## paasikivi

How about comparing to Chinese h? That is like hawking saliva from one's throat when preparing to spit.

----------


## Wowik

> How about comparing to Chinese h? That is like hawking saliva from one's throat when preparing to spit.

 That is not Russian "Х" also

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

It's like Bach

----------


## Rounder22

I think we all agree that we can't agree on what the Russian X sounds like or how to pronounce it lol ...

----------


## Trzeci_Wymiar

Here's an easy way to pronounce it: 
Make the "K" sound and hold it out in time.  Requires keeping the tongue close to the area of articulation (which means up in the back). 
I think this is a good Russian X...airy/subtler than the Arabic and Hebrew variants. 
And if you want to make an Arabic X...well... 
Snort some snot into the back of your throat and make that (classic) "Khhhhhuwayk" sound...which gathers the snot toward the front. 
Spit it in the trash can.... 
Pat yourself on the back.  The "khhhhuwayk" contains the X, obviously enough.  Repeat.  Practice.   
The biggest problem with pronunciation, as with anything, is over-thinking.  Fall back on your loogie-hocking instincts.   
And as for the Yeri...brush up on your reverse peristalsis.

----------


## Rounder22

How about the "Ch" in the word Chaos? ... would that be a better closeness to the pronunciation of the Russian "X"? ....

----------


## Ramil

That depends on how do you pronounce chaos.  :: 
To my Russian ear, the English word 'chaos' sounds like: к-эйос or something like that. There isn't any х sound in it, though in Russian it sounds pretty audible in хаос.

----------


## VendingMachine

Whoever said it wasn't possible to lengthen the sound of K was wrong - they have no problem with long K's in Karelian (kaikki, fyysikko, etc) and probably also in Finnish. And these K's are indeed long, they aren't pronounced like double consonants.

----------


## сэи

Well, I just want to give my two cents on this. ^^ 
Most English people study Spanish right? And, when I remember (  ::  ) I'll say a word that has the sound I'm talking about. But since it's so close to Portuguese, I'm sure there must be a close alike sound. 
So, I'd say the letter X is like "rh". But there's the problem of English people not being able to make "proper" Rs... This one is made at the beginning of the throat and is very slightly rolled, all together with the H sound... It becomes the X I've heard Russians speak. 
If anyone knows Portuguese... it's like the "r" in "rato" (mouse).   ::   
That's why I hate it that there are no proper Russian textbooks in Portuguese. It's annoying to see the transliterations in English and the explanations of the pronunciation that look so off from the real ones, when in Portuguese the real sounds can be easily found...  
Should make a protest to... someone... to make Portugal have more language books. :P They are extremely rare here, and almost always, just phrase books.   ::   
Hope this has helped anyone (most probably not).   ::

----------


## Оля

> So, I'd say the letter X is like "rh".

 What??   ::     

> If anyone knows Portuguese... it's like the "r" in "rato" (mouse).

 I don't know Portuguese... But I think it's like Italian or Spanish r, isn't it?
There is a quotation from my Portuguese manual:   

> *r*
> Между гласными произносится мягко, близко к итальянскому r в слове 'caro' или как р в слове 'река'. Может произноситься твёрдо, раскатисто, как в слове 'ротор', когда изображается двойным rr или стоит в начале слова. В конце слова тянется дольше. Но в Бразилии оконечное r обычно опускается.
> barato [бэ-'ра-ту] дешёвый
> carro ['ка-рру] машина
> amor [э-'мор] любовь

 Is the *r* in "barato" like the *r* in "rato", or not?

----------


## сэи

> I don't know Portuguese... But I think it's like Italian or Spanish r, isn't it?

 Well, I'd say in Portuguese the sounds tend to be stronger. But I can't remember an Italian r which is like Portuguese (I only studied Italian for a year though). And Spanish, close, but maybe a little softer.   

> There is a quotation from my Portuguese manual:      *r*
> barato [бэ-'ра-ту] дешёвый
> carro ['ка-рру] машина
> amor [э-'мор] любовь   Is the *r* in "barato" like the *r* in "rato", or not?

 Wow. Why do they put the "a" like "э"??  ::   That's not at all how it sounds... Only correct one is "carro"... 
And no, barato isn't like the "r" in rato. The first is much more pronounced. When saying "ra" in barato your tongue is supposed to move forward and hit the top of your mouth just behind the teeth. But when saying the "ra" in rato the tongue is slightly back in the mouth and doesn't go up at all to hit the top of the mouth. It's more of a throat thing.

----------


## Оля

> But I can't remember an Italian r which is like Portuguese (I only studied Italian for a year though). And Spanish, close, but maybe a little softer.

 I'd say that Spanish "r" is like Italian "r". Maybe there is a difference, but very slight. I'd never think that this sound can have something in common with Russian "х". More likely that Russian *х* is like Spanish *j* in "trabajo".   

> Wow. Why do they put the "a" like "э"??   That's not at all how it sounds...

 Maybe it's a typo...   ::  That quoting is from an electronic version of the manual.

----------


## сэи

> I'd say that Spanish "r" is like Italian "r". Maybe there is a difference, but very slight. I'd never think that this sound can have something in common with Russian "х". More likely that Russian *х* is like Spanish *j* in "trabajo".

 I think maybe you're thinking of a very strong "r" sound. I really mean a very light one. I believe English speakers would probably only see a weird H sound... But in reality there's a slight roll in the beginning of the "h" sound, which makes the Russian X sound. It's not a strong "r" at all...

----------


## TATY

No, phonetically, Spanish R is nothing like Russian х. 
FRENCH R has a similar sound, yes, but Spanish R, no. 
As for K. Olya, we are not saying that Х has a K sound, merely that K and Х are pronounced at the same location in the mouth. Basically to pronounce both K and Х, the mouth is in the same poisition. The difference in sounds is produced by the airflow. K is a plosive, that means the flow of air is blocked for a moment to build up pressure, then released. (Other plosives are B, P, M, N, T, D, G). Russian Х is a frictive, this means that a narrow channel is formed in the mouth/throat with which a flow of air is forced. Other frictives are F, S, Sh, Zh, Z, V, Th.

----------


## TATY

[quote=Оля] 

> But I can't remember an Italian r which is like Portuguese (I only studied Italian for a year though). And Spanish, close, but maybe a little softer.

 I'd say that Spanish "r" is like Italian "r". Maybe there is a difference, but very slight. I'd never think that this sound can have something in common with Russian "х". More likely that Russian *х* is like Spanish *j* in "trabajo".   

> Wow. Why do they put the "a" like "э"??   That's not at all how it sounds...

 Maybe it's a typo...   ::  That quoting is from an electronic version of the manual.[/quote:3kl1mvod] 
It's the same reason why English A is often transliterated as Э in Russian. 
Basically neither Russian A and Э are the same as the A in Amor. Russian A is too open. People pay too much attention to the way the letters look though and think. Oh, it's A in Portugues so it must be A in Russian too. 
If we take the English example: 
How to write the word 'Man' in Russian. 
Ман or Мэн? 
If a Russian said Ман it would be like _marn_ (rhymes with barn)
Мэн sounds closer to the English word 'Man' than 'Ман' does. 
Basically the English short A in Man, Pan, Tan, Can etc. is NOT a stressed Russian A.

----------


## Оля

> No, phonetically, Spanish R is nothing like Russian х.

 Who said that?... Nobody.   

> FRENCH R has a similar sound, yes

 Not at all.

----------


## TATY

> Originally Posted by TATY  No, phonetically, Spanish R is nothing like Russian х.   Who said that?... Nobody.        Originally Posted by TATY  FRENCH R has a similar sound, yes   Not at all.

 1. My mistake, he said Portuguese R. 
From Wikipedia: About Portuguese R: 
In Brazil, on the other hand, it has developed into a voiceless velar fricative [*x*]*, voiceless uvular fricative [χ] or a voiceless glottal fricative [h],[1] although the trill remains frequent in the three southernmost states and in the city of S

----------


## Оля

> This is a list of almost exact equivalents of Russian X:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_ ... Occurrence

 Yes, for me it's exactly like a Spanish *j* or a German *ch* (ach-Laut). Only the Russian *х* is a bit more "light". But the difference is not noticeable at all.

----------


## сэи

I must say, I'm confused now by the answer. I hate to be confused...   ::   
Anyway, I'm more referring to Portuguese from Portugal. Brazilian tends to not exactly be the same. But think the "Rs" are similar. 
And the r... Notice there are several "Rs" in Portuguese. Several ways of saying it. But the one I am referring to is close to that example in that page - "rabo". Though in "rabo" is a bit stronger. 
On the transliteration thing... English is not Portuguese. Obviously. I'd definitely say that for "man" the correct would be "Мэн". Ман is just too off. But in Portuguese, and in those words, the use of э is just completely off. If you said that to a Portuguese he would go like "huh?" and not understand you at all. But if you use the "a", even if it's slightly harder than it should be, he would understand you. But still, that "a" in those words, sounds practically like the unstressed "a" in Russian I have heard... So I really don't see the necessity of using э in those cases. 
I'm a "she" by the way. Though not sure if "he said Portuguese R" was referring to me or not. ^^ Just wanted to clear up anyway.  
Edit: Oh, I think I got it now after reading the posts again.   ::  Glad I was right. It did really sound like the Portuguese "R" in "rato".

----------


## Оля

> I'm a "she" by the way.

 I knew that!   ::  I don't know why.   ::

----------


## сэи

[quote=Оля] 

> I'm a "she" by the way.

 I knew that!   ::  I don't know why.   :: [/quote:1cze5rz5] 
Sometimes people just..."feel" it.   ::   :P

----------


## TATY

> I must say, I'm confused now by the answer. I hate to be confused...    
> Anyway, I'm more referring to Portuguese from Portugal. Brazilian tends to not exactly be the same. But think the "Rs" are similar. 
> And the r... Notice there are several "Rs" in Portuguese. Several ways of saying it. But the one I am referring to is close to that example in that page - "rabo". Though in "rabo" is a bit stronger. 
> On the transliteration thing... English is not Portuguese. Obviously. I'd definitely say that for "man" the correct would be "Мэн". Ман is just too off. But in Portuguese, and in those words, the use of э is just completely off. If you said that to a Portuguese he would go like "huh?" and not understand you at all. But if you use the "a", even if it's slightly harder than it should be, he would understand you. But still, that "a" in those words, sounds practically like the unstressed "a" in Russian I have heard... So I really don't see the necessity of using э in those cases. 
> I'm a "she" by the way. Though not sure if "he said Portuguese R" was referring to me or not. ^^ Just wanted to clear up anyway.  
> Edit: Oh, I think I got it now after reading the posts again.   Glad I was right. It did really sound like the Portuguese "R" in "rato".

 Baically, Cеи, you are know what a Spanish J sounds like? Russian X sounds very much like it, only not as harsh. If you say Spanish J, you will be perfectly understood.

----------


## Оля

> Baically, Cеи

 The nick is *сэи*. The second letter is Э, not Е.

----------


## сэи

> The nick is *сэи*. The second letter is Э, not Е.

 Thanks.   ::  
The nick is supposed to sound like the English "say", but I'm not sure if the characters are the correct ones. I sort of made it up quickly from the nick I usually use (sei) to enter the forum.  :P

----------


## Оля

> The nick is supposed to sound like the English "say", but I'm not sure if the characters are the correct ones.

 _Say_ would be "*сэй*", not "*сэи*" at all. These (*й* and *и*) are two different letters and two different sounds. 
Сэи sounds like sa- (from "say") + ee (from "meet"). Actually it's something difficult to pronounce (for Russians at least   ::  ).

----------


## сэи

> _Say_ would be "*сэй*", not "*сэи*" at all. These (*й* and *и*) are two different letters and two different sounds. 
> Сэи sounds like sa- (from "say") + ee (from "meet"). Actually it's something difficult to pronounce (for Russians at least   ).

 Yeah, I noticed that AFTER I had signed up. I should have put й... But only because my book says it's used in...hm... well... 2 letters put together ^^. Like ay, ey, oy... and so.  
But to be honest, I haven't been capable of identifying the difference between *й* and *и* so far. They seem so close alike I haven't really been able to identify the real difference in the sounds.

----------


## Lampada

http://sayandpost.com/5muqhcqlx7.mp3  ::

----------


## Оля

Keeping on the comparison with Spanish - *и* is i (in hijo), and *й* is y (in yo).
Or don't you really notice the difference between an English *y* (in say, day, yes) and an English *ee* (in meet, see, feel)?

----------


## сэи

> Or don't you really notice the difference between an English *y* (in say, day, yes) and an English *ee* (in meet, see, feel)?

 Well, I might have before... but right now I find it hard to separate "sa" from the "y", so I can't identify the sound well. 
But... thanks Lampada!   ::  That was awesome, really helped. So yeah... should be й in "sei"... Can't change it now though, right? *goes explore* 
Edit: Nope, can't change my name.   ::

----------


## Joshuac

> So do you pronounce this "kh" like russian "х"?

 Kh should be pronounced as Russian X, but most English speakers don't know Russian and will just pronounce it as K. 
The usual way people pronounce Хрущёв is "Krooshev", or "Krooshov"[/quote]
That's why it's so much better to transliterate (and to pronounce) it as "h"!   :: [/quote] 
Transliteration's primary goal is not about pronunciation though, it is about preserving spelling. 
There is a similar problem with Hebrew. There is a letter which is a VERY guttural H (it sounds horrible to me), and Arabic has it too. 
The standard transliteration of the letter is Ch. But English people think it's Ch as in Chair. 
The problem is there is another letter in Hebrew which is the same as English H. 
Hannukah is also spelt Channukah 
The final H is the letter Heh, which is the same as English H
The initial H/Ch is the nasty sounding letter. 
And in Ukrainian they have Г which is almost the same as Enlgish H, and Х which is the same as Russian X 
So they have to disinguish between the two, so Г = Н, Х = Kh. Also Г sounds much more like English H. 
The combination Kh is used partly because, Russian Х is pronounced at the same location as the letter K. 
K is a Velar plosive. Velar decribed the location of the obsrutcion of airflow, which is between the back of the tong and roof of the mouth. Plosive describes the manner of the airflow. Plosive is like an explosion. The airflow is completely obstructed briefly, building up pressure, which when released make a K sound. This is why you can't make a continous K sound. You can only do it once, then again, then again.  
Russian Х is a Velar frictive. Frictive means the airflow is partially obsrtucted, but there is just enough gap to allow a steady air flow.   
To pronounce Russian X, the learner should say a [k] sound, as in King or Cat, and pay attention to how back of the touch is touching the roof ot eh mouth. When K is pronouced, the back of the tongue blocks the airflow. 
The precise location of the contact should be identified, by repeating and paying close attention. 
Say K, K, K, K, K. Then say whispers of K, K, K. Now try and make a 'silent' K.  
Hold the tongue in position to produce a K. Gently try and force some air through, allowing the tongue to allow only the least amount of air through. You should hear a soft sound that sounds a bit like an aeroplane engine  :P[/quote]  
That was a lot of help! Спасибо.))

----------

