# Forum About Russia Politics  Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

## Hanna

So frustrating that Edward Snowden (a true hero, imho) didn't apply for asylum in Russia straight away. 
Russia may not be a perfect country, but  at least it's not a puppet to the US, and you can have a good life there It has beaches, ski slopes and great nature.. So why didn't he apply for asylum there straight away?!    Secondly: Politically, Russia is being SO lame in this matter. I am so unimpressed!Why couldn't Russia offer asylum with no strings attached?Or why can't Russia simply help Snowden get away, behind the scenes? They could have said he got away...   and didn't know where he was.  
It would be the simplest thing in the world, to sort out some travel documentation, do a radical makeover and off he goes, with nobody the wiser. Or simply sneak Snowden out the back door and put him on a commercial ship to Cuba or Venezuela or wherever he wants to go.  
Since no "real" country commits to helping him, maybe he should go to one of these ex-Soviet breakaway countries, that are not "real" countries. Like Pridnestrovie (which I visited!!), Abkhazia or South Ossetia. A stateless man in a country that doesn't exist.... Sounds a bit poetic.  
Last option: Iran or North Korea....?!  (or am I forgetting some even more obscure country?)  
I really think Russia should help out Snowden before it needs to come to that!  
What do you think?

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## Lampada

Привет, Ханночка!  Да уж, парень влип, так влип.  В руках полковника КГБ (хоть и в запасе) не сильно побарахтаешься. 
 Страшно за него.  Почему-то думаю, что вернётся он домой восвояси, отсидит несколько лет за тюремным компом и всё забудется.  Он своё дело сделал.

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## pushvv

Ну, во-первых, Сноуден (как нам показали) поступил, все таки, не очень хорошо - ему доверили секрет, а он его разболтал =). Во-вторых, afaik, его не выдали в США из России, но, при этом. потребовали прекратить безобразие, с какой целью, правда, не совсем ясно. В-третьих, вся эта история очень смахивает на фэйк (например, с целью отвлечь внимание общественности от чего-то другого).

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## maxmixiv

Выглядит так, будто Россия торгуется. Возможно даже обсуждая это с самим субъектом. Сноуден, кажется, из особой породы людей, которым не нужны горнолыжные курорты, ему справедливости хочется. И да, Россия - не Советский Союз, могут и выдать.

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## DrBaldhead

When I think about Snowden, I imagine the following scene: 
---
The Whitehouse. A military guy reporting to Obama. 
Obama: Greetings, general. You are free to report.
M.Guy: I have got two news for you, Mr. President, a good one and a bad one. From which should I start?
Obama: Start with the bad one.
M.Guy: In the country we've been sent in we haven't found any weapons of mass destruction.
Obama: Any? Really?
M.Guy: Certainly. Moreover, we haven't found any chemical, nuclear and biological weapons contrary to our current diplomatic agreements as well. 
Obama: What a drag... What's with the good one?
M.Guy: We've found Snowden there! And he has got the asylum!
Obama: Great! Arm the ships, general! There is some democracy to save! *To his secretary* Award Agent "Fisher" with medal and tell him that his next stop will be <yet another country>.
--- 
And after that line I understand that I do not really understand the matter I am talking about and just hope for the best. Yet, I still consider that Snowden guy suspicious.

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## diogen_

I experience cognitive dissonance when I try to imagine Mr Putin go into the trouble of granting  political asylum to Snowden because of sharing his ideals.))) On the other hand, to extradite him to the USA means display political weakness,  the quality that the Russian president simply cannot afford...  
As to the country that could host Snowden, I still think that despite the fact that Snowdan wasn’t found by Austrian police on board the president’s plane, the Plurinational State of Bolivia seems  the most probable next destination place for the whistleblower for now.

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## Hanna

Люди в России думают, Cноуден - фальшивка (заговор)?!  ::  :: 
Я читалa то же самое о Аssange...  По-моему вы слишком подозрительны. 
I think Snowden should have gone straight to Russia (or possibly China) and asked for help. Rather than going to Hong Kong. It needs to be a really big and strong country to support him. Alternatively he should have gone straight to a country that really doesn't like the USA and would help him on principle. However, many such countries are not big on freedom of speech etc - which Snowden values. He's really stuck between a rock and a hard place, but I think Russia would have been his best bet.  
The question is, how do you fly from Moscow to South America without passing over any EU or NATO territory? Austria is a neutral country! They should not take sides in this conflict - so rude to search the plane of the Bolivian prime minster. Maybe Snowden is stuck in Russia whether he likes it or not.   

> Сноуден, кажется, из особой породы  людей, которым не нужны горнолыжные курорты

 Haha -  В этом случае, попробуй Беларуси! 
He should start by joining Masterrussian.net either way! Seems like Russian might turn out to be a very useful language for him, the way things are going.

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## Eric C.

I didn't doubt for a second if the OP was going to return, stuff like this would be among the first subjects to discuss  ::

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## 14Russian

"Why couldn't Russia offer asylum with no strings attached?" 
Well, just offer it to him, yes.   Putin is wimping out?   So, there's no country willing to help this guy?   Not even Russia?    
The guy uncovered unethical and unjust spying and surveillance on their own people probably breaking numerous laws (not to mention Constitutional).   1984, anyone? 
So, what's the problem?   I thought Putin had a backbone.   I guess not. 
"I think Snowden should have gone straight to Russia (or possibly China) and asked for help. Rather than going to Hong Kong. It needs to be a really big and strong country to support him. Alternatively he should have gone straight to a country that really doesn't like the USA and would help him on principle. However, many such countries are not big on freedom of speech etc - which Snowden values. He's really stuck between a rock and a hard place, but I think Russia would have been his best bet." 
Duh, he is in Russia.   Well, the airport.   I bet Putin sent him a message with a smartphone or small TV with a video/movie, 'The Terminal.'    Putin:   "Хорошо повеселиться!"   Snowden:   "Да.  Большое спасибо."  (whispers:  'Jerk!")

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## Hanna

> I thought Putin had a backbone.   I guess not.

 Yeah, exactly! I am not a big Putin fan, even if I think his comments are quite funny sometimes, and I agree with SOME of the things he says. However, I did actually think he had backbone! Was I wrong?! 
But he said _"Snowden would have to stop his activities against our American partners"_. Either Putin has an identical program  running in Russia, and supports a mass surveillance state himself... Or he has no backbone! Or perhaps the USA is blackmailing him with something. He did say "as strange as this may seem, coming from me..." as if he wanted to hint that it was a bit of a strange position for him to take.

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## 14Russian

> Yeah, exactly! I am not a big Putin fan, even if I think his comments are quite funny sometimes, and I agree with SOME of the things he says. However, I did actually think he had backbone! Was I wrong?! 
> But he said _"Snowden would have to stop his activities against our American partners"_. Either Putin has an identical program  running in Russia, and supports a mass surveillance state himself... Or he has no backbone! Or perhaps the USA is blackmailing him with something. He did say "as strange as this may seem, coming from me..." as if he wanted to hint that it was a bit of a strange position for him to take.

 'Snowden would have to stop his activities against our American partners.'    Yes, everyone knows how often Putin takes an ethical stance.  ::

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## Eric C.

Any of you guys seen this? --> https://twitter.com/SnowdensSeat 
That's the funniest and most worthy thing I've learned about that guy, all the rest seems to be a time wasting blah-blah-blah...

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## 14Russian

> When I think about Snowden, I imagine the following scene: 
> ---
> And after that line I understand that I do not really understand the matter I am talking about and just hope for the best. Yet, I still consider that Snowden guy suspicious.

 Why?  What is suspicious? 
The only theory I've heard to date is a bit of conspiracy.  The idea is something like this:   There is some competition in the USA between the CIA and NSA for control (+ power) and this guy worked previously with the CIA (and obviously had connections).   So, this is to discredit and damage the NSA.   Take that as you will but I doubt that is what you were referring to.  ::

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## Doomer

> The guy uncovered unethical and unjust spying and surveillance on their own people probably breaking numerous laws (not to mention Constitutional).   1984, anyone?

 And that makes him what, exactly?
He's a giant PITA for any country 
BTW, technically there were no "spying", so the only thing that happen is "unethical behavior" of the government
But the guy broke some laws and committed treason in his country, that's a fact. And he's trying to "buy" his new life by publishing information related to other countries, doesn't look like a "hero" anymore, more like a "merchant"

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## Eric C.

> And that makes him what, exactly?
> He's a giant PITA for any country 
> BTW, technically there were no "spying", so the only thing that happen is "unethical behavior" of the government
> But the guy broke some laws and committed treason in his country, that's a fact. And he's trying to "buy" his new life by publishing information related to other countries, doesn't look like a "hero" anymore, more like a "merchant"

 I would also put it this way: there are really a lot of countries across the world where people are being spied on, and have no basic human rights; that dude, however, chose the U.S. for his "great mission" which makes him... well, an idiot

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## 14Russian

> And that makes him what, exactly?
> He's a giant PITA for any country 
> BTW, technically there were no "spying", so the only thing that happen is "unethical behavior" of the government
> But the guy broke some laws and committed treason in his country, that's a fact. And he's trying to "buy" his new life by publishing information related to other countries, doesn't look like a "hero" anymore, more like a "merchant"

 Why Edward Snowden Is a Hero : The New Yorker 
No spying?!?   LOL!   I've read stuff from you on here before.   I don't care if Baldy agrees with you.   I don't have time to argue.  
I'm glad that there's a lot of Americans who are against this - it shows how much they're hypocrites and proves I'm right about how the sheep tolerate anything their Government does.  
I don't care if he's considered a hero.   It's irrelevant.

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## 14Russian

> I would also put it this way: there are really a lot of countries across the world where people are being spied on, and have no basic human rights; that dude, however, chose the U.S. for his "great mission" which makes him... well, an idiot

 Yes, he's an idiot for exposing the Government and giving 'real proof.'   He's an idiot for creating the predicament for himself that prevents him having any freedom of movement and being wanted by the USA who would probably end up putting him in prison.   That is stupid, if you look at it that way.

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## Eric C.

> Yes, he's an idiot for exposing the Government and giving 'real proof.'   He's an idiot for creating the predicament for himself that prevents him having any freedom of movement and being wanted by the USA who would probably end up putting him in prison.   That is stupid, if you look at it that way.

 He chose a wrong target. There would've been no problem if he had chosen some third world sh@t of a country, and he knew that. He also knew he was going to ruin his life rather than actually help anyone with anything; it's obvious now almost no one in the U.S. gives a darn about what he did, except for those viewing him as a traitor; now, do you see it differently?

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## Doomer

> No spying?!?   LOL!   I've read stuff from you on here before.   I don't care if Baldy agrees with you.   I don't have time to argue.

 So, you only care for your own precious opinion, which obviously bestows us with its enlightening wisdom

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## 14Russian

> He chose a wrong target. There would've been no problem if he had chosen some third world sh@t of a country, and he knew that. He also knew he was going to ruin his life rather than actually help anyone with anything; it's obvious now almost no one in the U.S. gives a darn about what he did, except for those viewing him as a traitor; now, do you see it differently?

 'He chose the wrong target?'  LOL!    That is all you can say?   What a joke.  He's an American, working for top secret/security organizations of the USA and exposing their transgressions and breach of trust.    "it's obvious now almost no one in the U.S. gives a darn about what he did."    I hope you emphasize the word 'almost' but I can believe that.

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## eisenherz

> Apparently Obama is cancelling his meeting with Putin over this, and going to....... Sweden.......... instead, during the same period.   
> I'd much rather he was barred from entry. Or why not arrest him for war crimes against humanity? 
>  The Africans who booed him in South Africa had the right idea. 
> But no doubt the King will wine, dine and attempt to dazzle him.

 Hanna, without judging your argument either way, the 'Africans in South Africa' booed him for different reasons. They do not care much about Snowden / NSA etc. A fairly large section of the population in South Africa simply dislikes the USA for its perceived bullying and double standards around the globe - this has historical roots and Obama would have been booed anyway  - NSA/Snowden/Prism or not.

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## Hanna

Apparently there is now a (low resolution)  "Edward Snowden" computer game. A commenter in The Guardian said:   

> James Clapper has been playing it all week. 
>  He's really good at it, but still no nearer catching Snowden.
>  He finished the US level by collecting 98,000,000,000 phone calls and emails.
> He finished the Hong Kong level by accidently mis-spelling Snowden' name.
> He finished the European level by accidently stopping the wrong plane.
> He finished the South American level by managing to piss off almost everyone, everywhere south of Mexico.
> He's  currently stuck in the Russian level. He's tried threatening, begging,  bribing, calling off summits, but he just can't get past the level boss -  Putin.

   ::       

> Hanna, without judging your argument either way,  the 'Africans in South Africa' booed him for different reasons. They do  not care much about Snowden / NSA etc. A fairly large section of the  population in South Africa simply dislikes the USA for its perceived  bullying and double standards around the globe - this has historical  roots and Obama would have been booed anyway  - NSA/Snowden/Prism or  not.

 No, I realise that it had nothing to do with the NSA and that South Africans from all types of backgrounds have varying reasons to be fed up or disillusioned with the USA.  Nice to see someone from that part of the world in the forum.

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## Lampada

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/14/op...utin.html?_r=0

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## Lampada

*'Snowden is problem for both US & Russia' *  (close captured) *
With Steven Cohen*

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## Hanna

Hope Snowden is enjoying Russia. He is definitely in my thoughts and I will read his book the second its out.

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## Deborski

Guardian says Britain made it destroy Snowden material | Reuters  _From this article:_   

> Rusbridger said the destruction of the computer material was "pointless" as there were other copies of what was lost, and it would not stop the Guardian from pursuing Snowden stories. 
> "We will continue to do patient, painstaking reporting on the Snowden documents. We just won't do it in London," he said. 
> A British source with knowledge of the security services said GCHQ had no powers to seize material from the Guardian, but could have accused the paper of possessing stolen materials and demanded they be destroyed.

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## Юрка

1) Меня удивила реакция наших правозащитников, когда они сказали, что Сноудену нужно дать убежище. Они же всегда действуют в интересах США - подумал я. Почему же сейчас они против интересов США? А потом подумал, что те, кто им платит, заинтересован поставить Обаму (и Россию) в сложное положение.
2) Те же подозрения у меня насчёт Китая. Они выслали Сноудена не куда-нибудь, а к нам.

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## Юрка

> why can't Russia simply help Snowden get away, behind the scenes? They could have said he got away... and didn't know where he was.

 Кто же нам поверит?  ::  Этот вариант наивен. Ни один пассажир не может просто так перемещаться через границу, а программисту Сноудену как-то удалось. Хе-хе.  

> Why couldn't Russia offer asylum with no strings attached?

 Могли бы помочь без всяких условий, если бы это был наш агент. Но тут просто частное лицо. Помогаем ему чисто из гуманитарных соображений, но и свою страну при этом не нужно подставлять под удар. Поэтому условия и политические реверансы. Тоже из гуманитарных соображений.

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## maxmixiv

> Помогаем ему чисто из гуманитарных соображений

  ::

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## Hanna

Did you read that British police at Heathrow (main airport in London) stopped the Brazilian (gay) partner of Greenwald, the British journalist who had been liasing with Snowden.  
Greenwald (wisely) lives in Brazil. The Brazilian guy was just passing the UK in transit. However, they seized his laptop, memory sticks and lots of other electronic stuff, and haven't given it back.  
They held him for 9 hours using a terrorism clause, then released him. He is understandably furious, since he wasn't even involved in Greenwald's journalism.

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## Deborski

> 1) Меня удивила реакция наших правозащитников, когда они сказали, что Сноудену нужно дать убежище. Они же всегда действуют в интересах США - подумал я. Почему же сейчас они против интересов США? А потом подумал, что те, кто им платит, заинтересован поставить Обаму (и Россию) в сложное положение.
> 2) Те же подозрения у меня насчёт Китая. Они выслали Сноудена не куда-нибудь, а к нам.

 I am not against Obama.  In fact I voted for Obama twice.  But that does not mean I am in lockstep with everything he does. 
Americans are divided in their opinion about Snowden.  Some people call him a traitor.  Others call him a hero.  A lot of Obama supporters hate Snowden because, like people everywhere, they can not seem to separate the issues.

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## Deborski

> Did you read that British police at Heathrow (main airport in London) stopped the Brazilian (gay) partner of Greenwald, the British journalist who had been liasing with Snowden.  
> Greenwald (wisely) lives in Brazil. The Brazilian guy was just passing the UK in transit. However, they seized his laptop, memory sticks and lots of other electronic stuff, and haven't given it back.  
> They held him for 9 hours using a terrorism clause, then released him. He is understandably furious, since he wasn't even involved in Greenwald's journalism.

 Yes, I read about it.  That was the article I posted above!

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## maxmixiv

> Yes, I read about it.  That was the article I posted above!

 Уф, как всё же мне повезло, что я не поехал на олимпиаду в Лондон  ::  
А вообще, грустно всё это...

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## Deborski

> Уф, как всё же мне повезло, что я не поехал на олимпиаду в Лондон  
> А вообще, грустно всё это...

 I've stated it on other threads and I'll state it *again*.  I never supported a boycott of the Sochi Games.   ::

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## Doomer

We need to boycott Olympics in Europe and the US otherwise if you'd go there and you will be called homophobe. Everybody hates Russians there  :: 
будем все ветки красить в голубой цвет?

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## maxmixiv

Да нет, тут что-то другое. Если в Лондоне людей в мусор превращают, то уж лучше дома сидеть.

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## 14Russian

(Deleted. L.)   Snowden stayed at Russian Consulate while in Hong Kong, report says - The Washington Post 
Putin already knew about it and was lying - as usual. Not only that, but, I stated he was 'an opportunist.' That is proven correct, also. So, ppl saying 'yay for Putin' or crediting him with anything are shown to be fools. Putin supporters are fools, whether they are Americans or Russians. Governments always lie but so many people just don't realize it, I guess.

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## Юрка

> Americans are divided in their opinion about Snowden. Some people call him a traitor. Others call him a hero.

 Да, я видел интервью обычных граждан США на этот счёт. Сам я не считаю его предателем своей страны. Возможно, он предал своё ведомство, но это проблемы самого ведомства. 
Я считаю его идеалистом. Я, быть может, даже отговаривал бы его от такого поступка, чтобы он не ломал себе жизнь. Но с другой стороны, возможно, он внёс свой вклад в то, чтобы этот мир стал лучше. Надеюсь, ему будет уютно в Москве (или под Москвой). Освоит язык, потом книгу напишет. Почитаем.  ::  Только ему придётся жёстко ограничивать себя в перемещениях, чтобы не выдать своё место. Иначе американцы запихнут в машину, доставят в посольство и всё. Оттуда нам его не достать.

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## Deborski

By now, I am sure most of you have heard that Bradley Manning has changed his name to Chelsea Manning and wants to be sent to a prison for women instead of a prison for men.  I do not claim to understand why anyone wants to change their sexual identity, but I support their right to do that if they want.  But I have to say, it does not seem like a very wise choice for Bradley/Chelsea to make right now... he/she could end up in the all-male prison where he/she will be beaten and raped.  Or, maybe he/she will end up in a women's prison - in which case, he/she may be a genius.  I have no idea.  Manning lawyer gives more details on decision to become 'Chelsea' - U.S. News

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## Hanna

> Why Edward Snowden Is a Hero : The New Yorker 
> No spying?!?   LOL!   I've read stuff from you on here before.   I don't care if Baldy agrees with you.   I don't have time to argue.  
> I'm glad that there's a lot of Americans who are against this - it shows how much they're hypocrites and proves I'm right about how the sheep tolerate anything their Government does.

 Well -- Americans may have a lot of media to choose from, but 95% and the most accessible media is giving the "mainstream", gov't supported line. 
The majority of people will eventually fall for it.  
So although they may have initially been shocked at the relevations, the campaign immediately started to:  
1) Justify the NSA spying _"It's protection against evil terrrorists who HATE FREEDOM and the American way of life... and pedophiles, do you support them....?"_  
2) Focus on the person of Edward Snowden, rather than the issue: I.e. _"He abandoned his girlfriend who is good-looking and a dancer!"   "He said XYZ in an IT forum 5 years ago",  "He is just after the attention",   "He's got mental health issues"..... I_.e. blackpainting and general distraction from the actual topic.  
3) Insinuating that _"Putin is involved", "Russia is playing games and needs to be taught a lesson..."_ and generally using their ex arch enemy's completely incidental involvement as a distraction from the real topic.   
So after a month of this, most people are duly distracted by the above point, concerned about appearing un-patriotic...  *
It's also very easy to hoodwink non-technical people on this technical topic. * Making it sound less serious that it actually is. 
The actual technology behind it, and the potential implication of this amount of spying is simply not within most people's grasp, from a technical perspective.  
That's why this is so HUGE in the IT world where I work. Most people DO understand how truly sinister it is, and the absolutely mind-blowing implications. But for non-technical people it's understandable that it is hard to actually understand the problem.  
They are building huge data centres inside mountains for this, for goodness sake. The scope is incomprehensible. They want ALL data, from EVERYONE. 
 It's a combination of the worst spying thriller and the most spooky dystopian sci-fi you can imagine. 
Right now they can't decrypt and cross reference everything. But give it a few years, and they'll be able to use this data to pull out a full profile on anyone. Everything from their shopping habits, social life to political views.... Stasi (to mention this classic example of a spying org)  couldn't have dreamt of this and they might actually have had ethical reservations about it... But not so in the USA!     
Propaganda at its best, using "free" press...   Most people don't see it happening.  
Snowden did Americans a big, big favour at a huge price to himself, but sadly most Americans (just as he fears) are not in a position to appreciate it. Only somebody who seeks out alternative news sources and has the technical background to follow it, will be able to see the full picture.

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## Deborski

> Well -- Americans may have a lot of media to choose from, but 95% and the most accessible media is giving the "mainstream", gov't supported line. 
> The majority of people will eventually fall for it.

 Actually, public opinion in the US has swung in favor of Edward Snowden.  There were a lot of people calling him a traitor in the beginning, but as more information came out and it became clear just how vast the scope of government surveillance truly is, more people started calling him a hero.  And these days, the majority of Americans already KNOW that the mainstream media is bullshit.  There has been a rise of alternative news sources and citizen journalism, which on the one hand I applaud, but at the same time it also gives rise to a lot of conspiracy theories and fake news stories which garner more attention than they should.   
Most of the people I know are like me - they gather their news from a variety of sources both foreign and domestic.  In that way, we can deduce what is true and what is not true.    Poll: Americans say Snowden isn’t a traitor — MSNBC   

> Approximately 55% of American voters view Snowden as a “whistle-blower,” according to new Quinnipiac University poll. Only 34% consider him a “traitor” for revealing details on two of the nation’s top secret surveillance programs. 
> A majority view him as a whistle-blower in every subgroup–political party, gender, income, education, and age–except for African -American voters, among whom 43% call him a traitor and 42% a whistle-blower. 
> Researchers also spotted a “massive swing in public opinion” when it comes to how the public feels about spying programs in relation to civil liberties. Now, 45% of voters say the government goes way too far restricting civil liberties in regard to its anti-terrorism efforts. That’s a big switch from 2010 when 63% felt the government didn’t go far enough in its efforts to protect the country from terrorists.

 It is clear that Snowden's revelations have also succeeded in getting people TALKING more about the police state we live in here.  It isn't just the extremists talking about it either, now it has become a mainstream discussion.  Everyone I know is talking about it, and everyone I know agrees that the NSA has gone too far.

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## Eric C.

> Actually, public opinion in the US has swung in favor of Edward Snowden.  There were a lot of people calling him a traitor in the beginning, but as more information came out and it became clear just how vast the scope of government surveillance truly is, more people started calling him a hero.  And these days, the majority of Americans already KNOW that the mainstream media is bullshit.  There has been a rise of alternative news sources and citizen journalism, which on the one hand I applaud, but at the same time it also gives rise to a lot of conspiracy theories and fake news stories which garner more attention than they should.   
> Most of the people I know are like me - they gather their news from a variety of sources both foreign and domestic.  In that way, we can deduce what is true and what is not true.    Poll: Americans say Snowden isn’t a traitor — MSNBC   
> It is clear that Snowden's revelations have also succeeded in getting people TALKING more about the police state we live in here.  It isn't just the extremists talking about it either, now it has become a mainstream discussion.  Everyone I know is talking about it, and everyone I know agrees that the NSA has gone too far.

 Deb, you've been so much talking about the "black-and-white thinking" lately, and here you just demonstrate another example of it.  ::  I for one have never thought of that guy as a traitor or a hero, I think those are too strong words for a guy like him. He just did something not very smart and got busted.  ::

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## Deborski

> Deb, you've been so much talking about the "black-and-white thinking" lately, and here you just demonstrate another example of it.  I for one have never thought of that guy as a traitor or a hero, I think those are too strong words for a guy like him. He just did something not very smart and got busted.

 :shrug:  I was quoting a poll taken of US citizens, so I am not sure how I personally engaged in "black or white thinking" here.  My own opinion is that he's more hero than traitor.  He broke the law, certainly, but sometimes there are higher laws which we have to abide by, which supersede  petty legalities.  A crucial factor is that Snowden did not sell the information for money.  In my mind, that separates him from those who steal US secrets for the sake of making a personal profit.

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## Deborski

Snowden wins whistleblower award in Germany — RT News 
From this article:   

> The organizers of the prize commended Snowden’s work, stating that he had uncovered “massive and unsuspecting monitoring and storage of communication data, which cannot be accepted in democratic societies.” 
> The audience also heard a statement by Edward Snowden from Russia read out at the ceremony. “We should never forget the lessons of history when surveillance took the upper hand,” he said. 
> “Not only did [German Chancellor Angela Merkel], it seems, allow the US to spy on Germany, but it seems she also helped the US to spy on Germany. So this is one of the reasons why Edward Snowden has received this award,” RT correspondent Peter Oliver said from the ceremony in Berlin. “He is being honored with this by a number of groups for his work in revealing what turns out to be the wide ranging spying activities of the NSA and the US.” 
> The whistleblower award was first awarded in 1999 under the auspices of the Association of German Scientists and the German chapter of the International Association of Lawyers Against Nuclear Arms (IALANA).

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## Deborski

Snowden’s father has not yet been issued Russian visa – report — RT News 
Apparently Edward Snowden's father is having difficulty coming to Moscow to visit him.  Is this just typical bureaucratic red tape encountered during the visa process?  Or is something else going on?   

> The father of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden still cannot enter Moscow to visit his son because the Russian consulate needs the Foreign Ministry to sanction his visa before it can be issued, Russian media reported. 
> "The fact is that Lon Snowden still does not have a valid Russia visa,” a source close to Snowden Sr. said, as quoted by ITAR-TASS news agency. “When Lon’s lawyers asked for an explanation at one of the Russian consular offices, the response was that Russian Foreign Ministry needs to issue a sanction, which was not done yet, and only then a visa can be issued.” 
> Lon Snowden and his lawyer Bruce Fein appeared on ABC News on August 11, stating that they had received Russian visas and believed their trip would happen in the near future.  Both Snowden and Fein thought the visa issue had already been resolved. 
> The source could not name the reasons for the delay, but did note that Snowden Sr. is still planning a trip to Moscow and is looking forward to seeing his son.

 In other news, sounds like Edward has learned a few Russian words.   

> In the meantime, Snowden is spending his time traveling across Russia. He is learning about local customs and traditions through books that were passed on to him, Moskovskiy Komsomolets newspaper cited Snowden’s lawyer Anatoly Kucherena as saying. 
> The whistleblower is now able to speak a little bit of Russian. “Some words he can pronounce very clearly,” Kucherena said.

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## Юрка

> Is this just typical bureaucratic red tape encountered during the visa process? Or is something else going on?

 У меня две версии:
1) Американскую визу получить тоже не просто и не быстро. Так что, наша бюрократия мстит.  :: 
2) ФСБ нужно время на разработку операции "встреча отца и сына". Надо сделать так, чтобы американские шпионы не пронюхали, где младший Сноуден живёт. А Старший Сноуден может привести за собой "хвост".   

> In other news, sounds like Edward has learned a few Russian words.

 Эти слова цензурные, надеюсь...

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## Deborski

> У меня две версии:
> 1) Американскую визу получить тоже не просто и не быстро. Так что, наша бюрократия мстит. 
> 2) ФСБ нужно время на разработку операции "встреча отца и сына". Надо сделать так, чтобы американские шпионы не пронюхали, где младший Сноуден живёт. А Старший Сноуден может привести за собой "хвост".

 Вот, интересный взгляд...  наверное, правильно.  Спасибо.

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## Lampada

> Вот, интересный вид... Наверное правильно. Спасибо.

 _интересный взгляд
наверное_*,*

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## Юрка

> Вот, интересный взгляд... наверное, правильно. Спасибо.

 Дебора, у меня родилась ещё одна версия: Сирия. 
Возможно, что наши дипломаты решили не поднимать и не бередить скандальную тему Сноудена, пока есть шанс решить сирийскую проблему. В обоих случаях речь идёт о гуманитарных проблемах, но ставки в Сирии больше. Но как только Сирию начнут бомбить, наши дадут визу.

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## Deborski

> Дебора, у меня родилась ещё одна версия: Сирия. 
> Возможно, что наши дипломаты решили не поднимать и не бередить скандальную тему Сноудена, пока есть шанс решить сирийскую проблему. В обоих случаях речь идёт о гуманитарных проблемах, но ставки в Сирии больше. Но как только Сирию начнут бомбить, наши дадут визу.

 Я согласна, что ставки в Сирии больше.
Интересная теория.

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## Lampada

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us...s.html?hp&_r=0  *N.S.A. Examines Social Networks of U.S. Citizens*

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## Юрка

Отец Сноудена прилетел сегодня в Москву. Адвокат Кучерена заметил слежку. Ссылка.

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## sergei

> Адвокат Кучерена заметил слежку

  ЦРУ такие очаровашки  ::

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## Hanna

Check out the fantastic interview with Assange on RT today, covering the subject of Snowden in depth.  
Turns out that *Sarah Harrison a British journalist is also hiding in Russia* for her involvement with the Snowden leaks. She literally can't return to the UK without facing arrest. 
For telling the freaking truth in the so-called free media!
That's where we got to. 
Assange thinks she'll have to stay indefinitely in Russia too.

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## Deborski

Father of Edward Snowden says the NSA leaker is 'totally happy' and 'feels that his life is out of danger' in Russia | Mail Online   

> NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden is enjoying his new life in Russia and believes he is out of danger, his father Lon claimed on today. 
> 'He feels safe here and totally happy,' said Snowden senior as he left Moscow after an 'emotional' reunion with his controversial 'whistleblower' son. 
> 'He is grateful to Russia, and admits that he imagined it to be a very different country.'

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## Hanna

Yeah, good. But you spot the angle, don't you? Papers like the Daily Mail are completely incapable of writing anything that would portray Russia as a nice country, decent living conditions and normal people. It's either exaggerated stereotypes about communism, complaints about the current Russian leadership, or poverty, criminality etc. Lately, human rights and gay issues. 
Note how the article picked up on the fact that both Snowden and his dad where totally surprised about the warm reception in Russia and the nice lifestyle to be had. It's really discouraging -- particularly in light of Russia dropping the ideology that Daily Mail hates, and going all out in the other direction. The Mail still feels compelled to blackpaint Russia.

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## Eric C.

With such devoted defenders, nothing seems to be able to succeed in blackpainting that country  ::

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## dtrq

Meanwhile ФСБ добивается полного доступа к данным интернет-пользователей - ПОЛИТ.РУ

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## 14Russian

> Meanwhile ФСБ добивается полного доступа к данным интернет-пользователей - ПОЛИТ.РУ

 Just because someone disputes the 'cheerleader' factor above, it doesn't mean one supports whatever that paper writes. 
So, I will suggest that the other two posters above fail to consider that Mr. Snowden is going to be positive no matter what.   Of course, he'll praise the only country that took him.   Duhhhhh..... Also, anything is better there than being behind bars in, for e.g., the USA. 
With all that said, all praise Putin.... WHAT A WONDERFUL GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Good article above and it shows he is Russia's hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Lampada

Here's A Very Interesting Picture Of Edward Snowden On A Boat In Russia - Yahoo Finance

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## Hanna

Hurrah, Ed got a job offer in Russia!  
Don't have any English source on it, if anyone has seen one in Russian or English, please post! 
I started the thread when Ed was hiding at the airport in Moscow.  
The thread ought to change name to:   *"Edward Snowden and His New Life in Russia"* 
if he manages to survive a Russian winter, who knows what's next for him, a wife? 
So glad things worked out for him - he deserves it.

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## Юрка

> Hurrah, Ed got a job offer in Russia! 
> Don't have any English source on it, if anyone has seen one in Russian or English, please post!

 Вот BBC пишет: ссылка.

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## Paul G.

It's logical, because vkontakte is under the patronage of FSB. Snowden escaped from the US secret services and came running to the Russian ones. It's amusing.

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## Юрка

Сноуден открыл глаза простым американцам (не нам) на шпионскую деятельность Америки. Через некоторое время напишет книгу и откроет глаза простым американцам на Россию (мол, всё по-кайфу, ёпть). Похоже, у него судьба такая: открывать глаза соотечественникам то на одно, то на другое.  ::

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## 14Russian

> It's logical, because vkontakte is under the patronage of FSB. Snowden escaped from the US secret services and came running to the Russian ones. It's amusing.

 I actually agree with you here.  It's ironic but amusing with all the posts of praise of Russia when they have their own spying and surveillance and abuse of rights of Russians.   
Once again, I reiterate, he had little options and he chose Russia because they wanted to play a 'chess move' with the U.S.   Not play some sort of principled favour.    
I guess I have to be careful what I post as I am on some sort of 'FSB watch list' now.  
Snowden won't be criticizing Russia any time soon.   There's nowhere he can escape to after doing so.   Unless he writes a condemning article in his senior years and then doesn't care what happens.  ::

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## Юрка

> Snowden won't be criticizing Russia any time soon. There's nowhere he can escape to after doing so.

 Более актуальным считаю другой вопрос: если он начнёт хвалить Россию, то куда "побежит" наша внутренняя "оппозиция"?  :: 
Сноуден для них и их хозяев - это идеологическая опасность.

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## Eric C.

> Сноуден открыл глаза простым американцам (не нам) на шпионскую деятельность Америки. Через некоторое время напишет книгу и откроет глаза простым американцам на Россию (мол, всё по-кайфу, ёпть). Похоже, у него судьба такая: открывать глаза соотечественникам то на одно, то на другое.

 Эту задачу уже номинально выполняют представители "единой России" вроде вас. =)) Я не уверен что факт наличия у мистера Сноудена Американского гражданства как-то повлияет на вес его аргументов. =)

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## Paul G.

> he chose Russia because they wanted to play a 'chess move' with the U.S.   Not play some sort of principled favour.

 I think, he's just a pawn, if one follows your analogy, so he can't play a vital part of the game. I mean, he can't make important decisions. Some PR actions here, some there, that's all. All the information he has is an open secret. 
If we consider a situation with the "common free market zone" between the US and the EC, I assume, we can find some real reasons why Snowden did what he did. He gave PR trump cards those forces which don't think that the zone is a good idea and if Europe opens its market for the American goods it helps to overcome the crisis, but rather, on the contrary.

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## Hanna

> I guess I have to be careful what I post as I am on some sort of 'FSB watch list' now.

 I doubt the FSB cares about what you write on an Russian language forum.  
Besides, unlike a certain other country, Russia doesn't kidnap and torture people it doesn't like, lock them up indefinitely, torture and force feed them, or send drones to kill people it doesn't like.     **  
Thanks Edward Snowden for at least TRYING to wake people up. 
It's a pity that so many have their head full of Hollywood and propaganda to be concerned.

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## Deborski

> I doubt the FSB cares about what you write on an Russian language forum.  
> Besides, unlike a certain other country, Russia doesn't kidnap and torture people it doesn't like, lock them up indefinitely, torture and force feed them, or send drones to kill people it doesn't like.      
> Thanks Edward Snowden for at least TRYING to wake people up. 
> It's a pity that so many have their head full of Hollywood and propaganda to be concerned. [/SIZE][/FONT]

 Now that is just creepy!

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## Lampada

> Now that is just creepy!

 Ага, я вдруг узнаю мой айп!  Сначала хотела вытереть, потом догадалась, что это каждый видит свой.

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## dtrq

Доступность этой информации никакого отношения к нынешним скандалам с NSA не имеет - возможность определять IP, браузер и ОС стандартны для веба с древнейших времен.    

> Besides, unlike a certain other country, Russia doesn't kidnap and torture people it doesn't like

 How do you know.

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## Hanna

That's just the beginning of what a_ website_ can tell about visitors. 
The admin of this site, can easily get this info if he wants. 
It can tell languages installed on the computer, fonts, browser plugins, location settings, time settings and much more.  
If the site has a search function, it can tell what people searched for, and if they clicked on any of the search results.  
They can get enough information to tie a physical computer to a website comment without reasonable doubt. 
And no website based in the USA and most EU countries can refuse to co-operate.   *In addition, the NSA, GCHQ, FRA* and many others intercepts your communication, as default as it travels down the fibre-optic cables. They can pick up your communication, and most of the information I mention. If it's an email, they can see who the email is from, who it's going to, and the content.  *
What Edward Snowden revealed*, is that parts of this information, for everyone, not just Americans, is captured. 
The European spy agencies is sharing some of it with the NSA in America. The NSA keeps the information. 
Because the quantities are so mind-blowing, they have built the new data center in Bluffsdale, Utah. The only limitation is that they can't save the information indefinitely. They get rid of it after a certain amount of time, unless it's of interest.  
Obviously, no human can read all this information, so *they use bots to trawl through it, looking for patterns, keywords* etc.  If they find something, they can zoom onto that person to the extent that anything he does can be read like a book.   *The way to protect your privacy, is to use an anonymizing VPN and if you want to be on the safe side; paying with bitcoin or cash (not your own credit card).* They cannot decrypt encryption of 128 bit and higher, but Snowden suggests that if somebody of interest uses that, they safe ALL the traffic with the goal of cracking it as stronger and faster computing power becomes available.  
Odds are, that 99% of people reading this, are not of interest to the NSA, and obviously a lot comments that would interest them are missed. But you could also become falsely targetted, because somebody who was under suspicion contacted you. 
There have been cases in the UK, of people who just have the "wrong" friends or relatives, or wrote something picked out of context who were awoken in the middle of the night, taken away and interrogated by security services. 
It only happened to moslems and suspected peadophiles so far.  
Snowden has solid proof that all this is happening. But he is also warning, that since there is no proper control of the NSA, they break their own rules a lot and go further 
At the moment, all this is supposed to be tracking potential terrorists. 
The problem is that the system is open for abuse. It's also a threat for the future, as a lot of the meta data is saved. Nobody knows who will run America and Europe 10 years from now, or what they might want to use the data to. Consider how Jews in Europe were registered and never thought it would be a problem, just helpful census information. Until Hitler came to power and invaded their countries.

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## 14Russian

> Доступность этой информации никакого отношения к нынешним скандалам с NSA не имеет - возможность определять IP, браузер и ОС стандартны для веба с древнейших времен.  
> How do you know.

 Don't take it seriously.   She's trolling.

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## Hanna

> Доступность этой информации никакого отношения к нынешним скандалам с NSA не имеет - возможность определять IP, браузер и ОС стандартны для веба с древнейших времен.

 Yes, those of us who are technical and/or work in IT know this. But if  you look a the comments, you can see that it's obvious that several  others don't.   

> How do you know.

 If you know of any recent examples of Russia doing that, then please share them here. I am not aware that Russia snatches people abroad, takes them back to Russia and locks them up indefinitely, or that Russia assassinates non-Russians abroad. If you have information to the contrary, by all means share it.

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## Eric C.

> ...or that Russia assassinates non-Russians abroad

 Do you mean by this that it's ok for the Russian authorities to assassinate _Russians_ abroad?

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## Hanna

Oh yes Eric. If you read my comment properly you'll find that's exactly what I said. You are so clever.
And it so ties in with everything else I've been saying on this forum doesn't it, as well as my personality.
Kill'em alll!

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## xdns

> If you know of any recent examples of Russia doing that, then please share them here. I am not aware that Russia snatches people abroad, takes them back to Russia and locks them up indefinitely, or that Russia assassinates non-Russians abroad. If you have information to the contrary, by all means share it.

 Probably, Russia do assassinate her enemies abroad (if she can). For example, this Chechen militant was allegedly killed by Russian agents in Qatar.

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## Hanna

> Probably, Russia do assassinate her enemies abroad (if she can). For example, this Chechen militant was allegedly killed by Russian agents in Qatar.

 If that is true, it is bad. I don't support that at all, regardless who is doing it. The US, Russia, Israel...  
The other possible example of Russia killing somebody abroad (at least according to British tabloids) is Alexander Litvinenko, the ex spy who lived in London. No idea if it's true or not. Frankly, the way it was done seems too amateurish, based on what I read in the papers. Probably it was not done by a pro.  
But still regardless of these two possible cases, Russia does this on a significantly lesser scale than the USA, isn't it - and Russia isn't buying drones for the purpose, or blackmailing European nations into giving logistics support, which the US did. 
I know that the USSR did such things in the 1930s, like with Trotsky, and many others who had fled abroad or been exiled. Very, very disturbing and no excuse for it as far as I'm concerned.   
But the main perpetrator of foreign executions at the moment is the USA - or are you denying that?

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## Юрка

> If that is true, it is bad.

 В отношении Яндарбиева это скорее всего правда (его убили наши агенты). Но это хорошо, а не плохо, так как у него руки по локоть в крови. Это самооборона и в какой-то степени месть. Он же занимался террором в отношении мирных граждан РФ.  

> Alexander Litvinenko

 В отношении Литвиненко это скорее всего ложь. Его убили скорее всего чеченцы, живущие в Англии. Россия в данной истории была мишенью, а Литвиненко был пешкой, которой жертвовали в этой "игре".  

> Эту задачу уже номинально выполняют представители "единой России" вроде вас. =))

 Кто будет слушать Единую Россию на Западе?  

> Я не уверен что факт наличия у мистера Сноудена Американского гражданства как-то повлияет на вес его аргументов. =)

 Сноудена слушает весь мир не потому что у него было гражданство США, а потому что он совершил поступок, сделавший его знаменитым. Теперь его слушают миллионы. Это значит, что он может быть в какой-то степени нашим "агентом влияния" на Западе, меняя имидж нашей страны. Причём нам для этого почти ничего не нужно делать. Достаточно просто разрешить жить на нашей территории.
Любая звезда может выполнять функцию агента влияния. Например, Мадонна. Приезжая к нам он не гнушается заниматься этим, пропагандируя мнение Запада по поводу ситуациии с Pussy riot.

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## xdns

> But the main perpetrator of foreign executions at the moment is the USA - or are you denying that?

 No, I am not. USA abroad killings count is very high and there are rightful concerns about civilian casualties. But USA justifies its actions using the war on terror. Senior members of Al-Qaeda and Taliban are main targets for USA, just as leaders of Chechen terrorists are main targets for Russia. 
Putin usually emphasizes that terrorism is a threat to the whole world and that acts of terror in Russia is a part of worldwide Islamists agenda. You may watch BBC documentary "Smell of paradise" - there is the last interview with abovementioned Yandarbiyev and it's all about political Islamism and religious zealotry. He tried to look respectful and wise, but one should remember his direct involvement in financing terrorist activity on Russian soil (including infamous Moscow theater hostage crisis). 
Several ethnic groups in Russia are historically Muslim (Tatars and Bashkirs from the Volga river basin, and numerous ethnicities of North Caucasus and its outskirts - including Chechens). Putin urges their religious leaders to promote what he calls "traditional Islam" as he rightfully concludes that many ideas of radical Islamism are stemming from the abroad. In the 90s mainly Chechens were notoriously known for falling for these ideas (spurred by Chechnya's failed independence attempt), but these days Islamic radicalism is spreading to neighboring Dagestan. There are also attempts to bring it to Tatarstan and Bashkiria - federal districts with significant ethnic Russian population and long history of peaceful coexistence as part of Russia. The extremists even manage to occasionally lure ethnic Russians to convert to Islam and join terrorists (unthinkable, but there are several examples). Of course Putin tries to counter these trends, and targeting notorious terrorists to stop them from exercising their influence is part of this struggle.

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## UhOhXplode

It's awesome that Snowden has a really cool job in Russia now!  ::  But he really needs to learn that the world will never be perfect. Imo, the US has some serious issues that can't be fixed cause those issues aren't just in the government but in the people too. But now Snowden lives in a country that has a long history of working to fix issues and, imo, he picked the best country to live in. Most people here can get happy about snooping and lies but Snowden couldn't and neither can I. A strong part of US culture is all about snooping, lies, and intimidation. It's everywhere you go here and you can see it in the news - especially about invading and interfering with other countries. But it doesn't stop there cause it's also about weakness and trust. 
What was the worst thing that happened? I mean, Snowden believes we have the right to know what the government is doing. Well, if we believe in our country then that shouldn't be a problem, right?
No, the worst thing that happened was in our government. It failed on so many levels. It lost the trust of the people with a lot of it's lies but it was also proven, in the courts, that it violated 3 very important parts of the Constitution. 
Is that important? Well, maybe not as important as these: 
1. The government can't keep a secret and that violates National security.
2. Our security is so lame, even the Chinese know all about our new weapons systems.
3. Yeah, the politicians are liars but they're stupid liars - they always get caught lying.
4. Our president can't even shake hands with Putin without making excuses about being old and weak.
5. Our president smiles so much, he looks like a clown! 
Yeah, I can understand why Snowden wanted to divorce the US. No country is perfect but at least Russia has a really cool culture and it's a strong country. And yeah, people should be where they belong, not just where they're born. Imo, he has 2 choices now. He can become a Russian citizen and accept the fact that no country is perfect or he can hop from Russia to Germany and other places and become a dude without a country. But I don't get how anyone could be happy without a country to believe in and when he has kids, they'll probably want a country to believe in too. He really needs to be thinking about that. 
About Litvinenko and yandarbiyev:
Something else I really really like about Russia - No extraditions. Russia protects it's culture and it's citizens!  :: 
Well, since Litvinenko was protecting Berezovsky, then he was probably a Yeltsin supporter and a robber capitalist. Imo, that should be enough to convict anyone! And he was also a nutjob since he tried to convince people that Putin was staging terrorist acts. No way I would ever believe that. But Lugovoy's statements passed a lie detector test and I don't believe Litvinenko was assasinated by the FSB. 
And I won't even discuss Yandarbiyev! He was a Chechen and an enemy of the Russian people. If the FSB assasinated him, that's cool. Somebody needed to!
I think every country has the right to defend itself but if Russia does, it must be doing it discretely cause I never see much in the news. In our country, it's about as subtle as a nuclear disaster!

----------


## Paul G.

> About Litvinenko and yandarbiyev:
> Something else I really really like about Russia - No extraditions. Russia protects it's culture and it's citizens! 
> Well, since Litvinenko was protecting Berezovsky, then he was probably a Yeltsin supporter and a robber capitalist. Imo, that should be enough to convict anyone! And he was also a nutjob since he tried to convince people that Putin was staging terrorist acts. No way I would ever believe that.

 About Litvinenko.
Actually, he was not a spy. He was just an ordinary FSB official. Berezovsky paid him for his treason and supported him in London (but not that much as Letvinenko wanted). In fact, Letvinenko was just a greedy and silly loser. Berezovskiy was very greedy, too, so there was the one difference between them: Berizovskiy had big money, Letvinenko hadn't.
The western Media keep silence about the simple fact, that all the traces lead not to London, but from the city. We can suppose that Litvinenko had this radioactive material on hand. That's why everyone who contacted with him in London got a radioactive mark.
I guess, Letvinenko wanted to sell something illegal, like polonium etc, maybe he was a middleman, who knows. It looks like he didn't observe safety and radiation killed him finally. Of course, this fact was used by Berezovsky and other enemies of Russia like a reason to attack Putin again. But if we look at it objectively, all these "facts" are just a fog of PR. The version that Putin ordered to assassinate this complete loser who didn't know anything also sounds very funny.
By the way, Berezovsky worked on Great Britain secret services. So everyone must remember how traitors end up.

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## 14Russian

> About Litvinenko.
> Actually, he was not a spy. He was just an ordinary FSB official. Berezovsky paid him for his treason and supported him in London (but not that much as Letvinenko wanted). In fact, Letvinenko was just a greedy and silly loser. Berezovskiy was very greedy, too, so there was the one difference between them: Berizovskiy had big money, Letvinenko hadn't.
> The western Media keep silence about the simple fact, that all traces lead not to London, but from the city. We can suppose that Litvinenko had this radioactive material on hand. That's why everyone who contacted with him in London got a radioactive mark.
> I guess, Letvinenko wanted to sell something illegal, like polonium etc, maybe he was a middleman, who knows. It looks like he didn't observe safety and radiation killed him finally. Of course, this fact was used by Berezovsky and other enemies of Russia like a reason to attack Putin again. But if we look at it objectively, all these "facts" are just a fog of PR. The version that Putin ordered to assassinate this complete loser who didn't know anything also sounds very funny.
> By the way, Berezovsky worked on Great Britain secret services. So everyone must remember how traitors end up.

 Both Berezovsky and Putin are traitors, though.   Both were buddies for a while, also.  But, some traitors become expendable?   Maybe that's the key... and those are facts!!!!   ::   
Wow, this is pure comedy gold below!:
"Something else I really really like about Russia - No extraditions. ***Russia protects it's culture and it's citizens!***" 
Explode?!?   I think I'm gonna explode with laughter!   ::    Btw, you chose the wrong 'its.'

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## Eric C.

> Wow, this is pure comedy gold below!:
> "Something else I really really like about Russia - No extraditions. ***Russia protects it's culture and it's citizens!***" 
> Explode?!?   I think I'm gonna explode with laughter!     Btw, you chose the wrong 'its.'

 It's fast and easy to pick a country and be idealistic about it. It takes time to realize there's no such country anywhere.

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## Hanna

You two totally destroy any enjoyment of writing in this forum.  
Apart from that, you seem to deliberately misunderstand and misquote what I am saying, and others and you completely personify the definition of trolling. 
You seem determine to use this forum about the Russian language to blackpaint Russia to the greatest possible extent.  
It's not about goldplating a country that doesn't deserve it; it's about respecting a nation that this forum is about, and most of the partcipants are from.  
The dirt on Russia is available in any Western article or news story on the topic - do we really need to repeat the same stories here too? Every English speaking person with an interest in Russia have already heard it many times.  
And those Russians who hate their own country; fine - it's your prerogative and you may have many good reasons. But is it really the reason why you learned English? And what exactly are you getting out of proliferating your views to non-Russians? Some here are so determined and persistent that I have to wonder if they are getting paid by the comment. 
So go ahead and "explode with laughter" alone in this forum - I think you've managed to scare off or bore almost everyone else. There are much better places than this to get the dirt on Russia in English, and sans insults and snidy comments.

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## Deborski

When I lived in Russia, I didn't stay in fancy hotels or limit my associations to other westerners.  A lot of foreigners who claim they "lived" in Russia, don't even get to know much about the people, the language or the culture.  Just the other day I was talking with an American man who *hates* Russia even though he claims to have lived in Moscow for more than a decade.  He doesn't speak any Russian and he outright stated to me that "there is nothing Russia can do better than America."  I replied that it's hard for me to comprehend how anyone could live in Russia that long and still be convinced of American exceptionalism, then I threw a few not so nice words at him and told him to leave me alone. 
For some people, I guess, it seems like this is just one big dick measuring contest.  Who is "greatest", Russia or the US?  I find that so childish and so boring, comparing our countries.  There is nothing original about it, it's the same crap that has gone on all my life.  As long as we are comparing all the time, and competing to be "greatest," how will we ever learn from each other? 
Anyway, after living and working in Russia, I developed what I describe as a love/hate relationship with that country.  I think that when a country starts to feel like home, you can't help but see its flaws as well as its greatness.  I certainly see the problems in America, and there is a lot which I hate about America, but a lot that I love about America too. 
I will say that all the strong anti-American commentary in the forum sometimes makes me uncomfortable, even though I myself have contributed to it.  The forum is about Russian language, true, but it is also about learning English.  It would be nice to see an open cultural exchange where no one is made to feel intimidated or unwanted, and I agree that the trolling, snide comments and insults are tiring and immature. 
I should add that there is also a clear element of misogyny in this forum among some of the members.  If you pay attention, you notice that they only attack females, especially females who have strong opinions.

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## Lampada

> You two totally destroy any enjoyment of writing in this forum.  
> Apart from that, you seem to deliberately misunderstand and misquote what I am saying, and others and you completely personify the definition of trolling. 
> You seem determine to use this forum about the Russian language to blackpaint Russia to the greatest possible extent.  
> It's not about goldplating a country that doesn't deserve it; it's about respecting a nation that this forum is about, and most of the partcipants are from.  
> The dirt on Russia is available in any Western article or news story on the topic - do we really need to repeat the same stories here too? Every English speaking person with an interest in Russia have already heard it many times.  
> And those Russians who hate their own country; fine - it's your prerogative and you may have many good reasons. But is it really the reason why you learned English? And what exactly are you getting out of proliferating your views to non-Russians? Some here are so determined and persistent that I have to wonder if they are getting paid by the comment. 
> So go ahead and "explode with laughter" alone in this forum - I think you've managed to scare off or bore almost everyone else. There are much better places than this to get the dirt on Russia in English, and sans insults and snidy comments.

 Хорошо написано, Ханночка!  Спасибо тебе за твоё бесконечное терпение и умение смотреть на троллей с высоты.  
Любые доводы и переубеждения стекают с них, как с гуся вода. Им что в лоб, что по лбу - не пробъёшься. 
Я думаю, что наш форум читает много здравомыслящих людей, и я уверена, что твоя точка зрения находит у них отзыв, так что не расстраивайся по пустякам.  Лично мне всегда интересно читать твои посты и я восхищаюсь твоей чистотой, искренностью и желанием находить хорошее в России.

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## Eric C.

> I will say that all the strong anti-American commentary in the forum sometimes makes me uncomfortable, even though I myself have contributed to it. The forum is about Russian language, true, but it is also about learning English. It would be nice to see an open cultural exchange where no one is made to feel intimidated or unwanted, and I agree that the trolling, snide comments and insults are tiring and immature.

 Yeah, it would be great, but it takes "both sides" to agree. Meanwhile, there's a certain poster here with a very strong anti-American sentiment with no explainable background, and I'm not sure if that's treatable within reasonable time. =))

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## Deborski

> Yeah, it would be great, but it takes "both sides" to agree. Meanwhile, there's a certain poster here with a very strong anti-American sentiment with no explainable background, and I'm not sure if that's treatable within reasonable time. =))

 But arguing and name calling is not the "cure" if in fact there is one.  I don't blame people for hating on America right now.  I agree with many of Hanna's concerns.  It was not only Hanna I was referring to, however.  I've encountered very negative attitudes about America in the chat, too.  To an extent, I think that's just how people feel and there is nothing I can do about it.  But sometimes, it would be nice to see the people separated from their governments, instead of widespread blanket hatred which applies homogeneously to all Americans, regardless of their individual ethics or kindness. 
I grew up surrounded by very hateful attitudes towards Russia and Russians, and I never could understand all of that hatred either.  Even as a child, I knew that people living in Russia were just human beings like us, and had no control over what their government was doing.  So when I see the same "everything America/Americans do is evil" I just shake my head and think "cold war, round two."  I guess humanity will never learn.

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## UhOhXplode

> It's fast and easy to pick a country and be idealistic about it. It takes time to realize there's no such country anywhere.

 Who said anything about idealism? I've been wanting to go to Russia since I was little and some of mom's friends are Russian. I get along better with Russians than I do with my other friends so why wouldn't I wanna be around more Russians?
Like I said in my last post, the problem that can't be fixed is that it's not just the government but it's the people too. I just get along better with Russians.
And yeah, moving to another country won't be easy. Even just moving to another state wasn't easy. So yeah, there's no such anything anywhere that's perfect. That's why I decided that the people trump the government. Cause even if things get bad, you still have someone to talk to. 
Well, you can't say that our country isn't epic fail and epic face-palm right now. But things can happen and maybe it will be epic win someday. Would I still wanna go to Russia? Yes! Cause people would still be the same here and I would still get along better with Russians. And they have some epic houses for sale near Moskva! 
Anyway, our country didn't explode when one of my friends moved to Japan or when two of my other friends moved to Brazil and Taiwan. So, it won't explode if I move to Russia.
Btw, I think the economy's getting better. I got a huge raise on my allowance and dad ordered new tires for my mountain bike!  ::    

> Both Berezovsky and Putin are traitors, though.   Both were buddies for a while, also.  But, some traitors become expendable?   Maybe that's the key... and those are facts!!!!    
> Wow, this is pure comedy gold below!:
> "Something else I really really like about Russia - No extraditions. ***Russia protects it's culture and it's citizens!***" 
> Explode?!?   I think I'm gonna explode with laughter!     Btw, you chose the wrong 'its.'

 President Putin is NOT a traitor! If they were "buddies for a while" then that's probably cause Putin didn't know Berezovsky was a traitor. 
1. The Russian Constitution forbids extraditing Russian citizens.
2. President Putin banned adoptions outside of Russia cause people were hurting and even killing Russian orphans.
3. Who rounded up all those migrant workers when just 1 Russian citizen was murdered?
4. Who put up travel advisories when the US was arresting Russian citizens in other countries? 
And that's just a few things that happened. The Russian government does protect the people and the culture. 
Anyway, nothing that's been posted has changed how I feel about Russia and Russians. It's an amazing place and it has an awesome space program too!  ::

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## Юрка

Благодаря Сноудену я понял, почему посольство США часто отказывает в визах не объясняя причины. Наверное, они пробивают через АНБ, что данный человек писал в Фейсбуке или Твиттере по поводу Америки. И если там что-то не то, то ставят на таком челе чёрную метку.  

> He doesn't speak any Russian and he outright stated to me that "there is nothing Russia can do better than America."

 А Вы ему скажите, что Америку уже обогнала даже "младшая сестра" России, Белоруссия, сделав самый грузоподъёмный самосвал (БелАЗ 75710), обойдя американские Caterpillar и Terex. Он сразу выпадет в осадок и поспешит ретироваться.  ::   

> Спасибо тебе за твоё бесконечное терпение

 Терпеть кого-то из участников - для этого не так уж много терпения и нужно...  ::

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## Lampada



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## Hanna

::    Lampada hoe are you finding all these!!! They are so funny...

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## Lampada

> Lampada hoe are you finding all these!!! They are so funny...

 Most are from Facebook.

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## Юрка

Если говорить об ущербе, который нанёс Сноуден США, то это идеологический ущерб. Западные подростки читали Толкина и думали, что Мордор - это СССР. А теперь получается, что их собственные страны чем-то похожи на Мордор, а Сноуден спасается в РФ (то есть в Мордоре). Получается путаница, и вся идеологическая обработка подрастающего поколения Запада - коту под хвост. За такое не прощают.  :: 
Кстати, символ Мордора - это глаз. 200px-Escudo_Mordor.svg.png

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## Lampada

Off-topic's been moved. See http://masterrussian.net/f13/life-ou...nowdens-22123/

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## 14Russian

I hope the Russians understand what is going on here.   If the mod doesn't agree with your p.o.v., you're a troll here.  That is the essence of this forum.

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## Lampada

> I hope the Russians understand what is going on here.   If the mod doesn't agree with your p.o.v., you're a troll here.  That is the essence of this forum.

 Okay-okay, trying to upset/offend the moderator now?  Good luck with that!  :: 
It's not hard to recognize a troll and it has nothing to do with my views.

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## 14Russian

> Okay-okay, trying to upset/offend the moderator now?  Good luck with that! 
> It's not hard to recognize a troll and it has nothing to do with my views.

 Whatever, Miss Bolshevik. 
Edit:  Okay, I edited my post for ya.  ::    I think the following illustrates what is going on with Russia and that Putin didn't accept Mr. Snowden out of the kindness of his heart.  ::    Americans have PRISM, and the Russians have SORM and PAK. — Phantom Report Russia’s Hypocrisy on Snowden | The Interpreter FSB Seeking to Expand Online Surveillance | News | The Moscow Times Skype, Gmail and Hotmail give encryption codes to Russian security services (FSB). [Archief] - Marokko Community 
Look up SORM.   Educate yourselves.   
But, by all means,  keep posting the daily neo-soviet drivel here ...  ::

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## Lampada

> Whatever, Miss Bolshevik. 
> Edit:  Okay, I edited my post *for ya.*  ...

  Wrong, it was not for me.  You have no clue what I need for myself. 
But thanks anyway!

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## Paul G.

> Whatever, Miss Bolshevik.

 It must be "miss Bolshevichka" then.  :: 
Большевик = Bolshevik (masc.)
Большевичка = Bolshevichka (fem.) 
Everyone in Russia knows about SORM. That's an open secret.
But SORM just collects information and stores it encrypted. If FSB finds out that a certain person is a terrorist or hacker, they use the information for the investigating, in court etc. It's not on-line service like in the US, when your home (or even life and health) may be ruined by police because you were searching something "dangerous" in Google.

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## Lampada

> It must be "miss Bolshevichka" then. 
> Большевик = Bolshevik (masc.)
> Большевичка = Bolshevichka (fem.) 
> ... It's not on-line service like in the US, when your home (or even life and health) may be ruined by police because you were searching something "dangerous" in Google.

 _Большевик_ и _большевичка_ пишутся с маленькой буквы.  
Если бы они проверяли всё компьютеры, то смогли бы предупредить многие массовые убийства.  К сожалению, они с этим не справляются. Хотя, может, что-то и предупреждают.   _"... by Halloween of this year, 121 people had already died in 26 mass killings around the country, according to data from USA Today ._ _
In the last five years, there have been almost two mass shootings a month, according to a report  from Mayors Against Gun Violence, a bipartisan group made up of over 1,000 mayors from across the country._ _
The U.S. Department of Justice estimates__ that between 2009 and 2012, 404 people were shot and 207 killed in these kinds of mass shootings. In the meantime, statistics show over 47,000 people were murdered in the US by firearms between 2006 and 2010, according to the FBI. ..."_  http://fusion.net/dna_with_derrick_a...ootings-189696

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## Hanna

I will read up on SORM and form my own opinion. 
If anything needs to be leaked about it, I hope that happens. I doubt it's anywhere near a fraction of the scale of what the NSA is up to. 
Meanwhile in the land of the free & brave, from today's Guardian:    

> Jeremy Hammond, the Anonymous hacktivist who released millions of  emails relating to the private intelligence firm Stratfor, has denounced  his prosecution and lengthy prison sentence as a “vengeful, spiteful  act” designed to put a chill on politically-motivated hacking.  
>  Hammond was sentenced on Friday at federal court in Manhattan to the  maximum 10 years in jail, plus three years supervised release. He had  pleaded guilty to one count under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act  (CFAA) flowing from his 2011 hack of Strategic Forecasting, Inc, known  as Stratfor. In an interview with the Guardian in the Metropolitan  Correction Center in New York, conducted on Thursday, he said he was  resigned to a long prison term which he sees as a conscious attempt by  the US authorities to put a chill on political hacking.  
>  He had no doubt that his sentence would be long, describing it as a  "vengeful, spiteful act". He said of his prosecutors: "They have made it  clear they are trying to send a message to others who come after me. A  lot of it is because they got slapped around, they were embarrassed by  Anonymous and they feel that they need to save face.”  
>  Most pointedly, Hammond suggested that the FBI may have manipulated  him to carry out hacking attacks on “dozens” of foreign government  websites. During his time with Anonymous, the loose collective of  hackers working alongside WikiLeaks and other anti-secrecy groups, he  was often directed by a individual known pseudonomously on the web as  “Sabu”, the leader of the Anonymous-affiliated group Lulzsec, who turned out to be an FBI informant.

 By the way, sorry about the bad grammar in my rant against two individuals above. I just re-read it and noticed several grammar mistakes.  
Sometimes when I get really worked up,  my grammar goes out the window. 
Should be careful about that here, where many are trying to improve their English and don't need people setting a bad example... 
I've think the trolls are here to stay, but how dare they be rude the moderator who has had the patience of an angel with their childish antics?  
The trolling also prevents those of us with a genuine interest in these questions from having a serious discussion, as the topic keeps derailing into petty squabbling and insults.

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## 14Russian

> It must be "miss Bolshevichka" then. 
> Большевик = Bolshevik (masc.)
> Большевичка = Bolshevichka (fem.) 
> Everyone in Russia knows about SORM. That's an open secret.
> But SORM just collects information and stores it encrypted. If FSB finds out that a certain person is a terrorist or hacker, they use the information for the investigating, in court etc. It's not on-line service like in the US, when your home (or even life and health) may be ruined by police because you were searching something "dangerous" in Google.

 LOL!  You didn't read the articles then?   Ummmm... okay.   ::    

> I will read up on SORM and form my own opinion.

 Another one.   LOL!

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## Paul G.

> _Большевик_ и _большевичка_ пишутся с маленькой буквы.  
> Если бы они проверяли всё компьютеры, то смогли бы предупредить многие массовые убийства.  К сожалению, они с этим не справляются. Хотя, может, что-то и предупреждают.

 It was kinda nickname, so a capital letter was needed. 
All of these stupid actions are pitiful and absolutely useless. Checking the million computers can't be organized properly. That's an utopian goal which just spends money of the US taxpayers, no more. Also, it leads the society to a deadlock. The more fears FBI/NSA produce, the more spontaneous killings they get and the more forces they need to manage it and the more killings they get and so on. Vicious circle.

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## Lampada

> It was kinda nickname, so a capital letter was needed. 
> All of these stupid actions are pitiful and absolutely useless. Checking the million computers can't be organized properly. That's an utopian goal which just spends money of the US taxpayers, no more. Also, it leads the society to a deadlock. The more fears FBI/NSA produce, the more spontaneous killings they get and the more forces they need to manage it and the more killings they get and so on. Vicious circle.

 Большой процент убийц, особенно наиболее известных, психически больные, которые не лечились или не имели доступа к медицинской помощи.  Это может измениться к лучшему с внедрением Обамаcare, медстраховки, которая будет покрывать психзаболевания.  Если бы ещё начали честно проверять тех, кто покупает оружие.

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## Lampada

Политолог Николай Злобин прокомментировал Дмитрию Быкову свежие новости об Эдварде Сноудене | Дмитрий Быков | Собеседник.ру      *"По заявлению адвоката Эдварда Сноудена, Анатолия Кучерены, американец потратил в России почти все свои деньги. Между тем,* *ущерб, нанесенный самим шпионом, даже еще не осознан полностью. Ситуацию комментируетодин из самых известных российско-американских политологов, член Валдайского клуба, президент вашингтонского Центра глобальных интересов Николай Злобин.* *
– Я говорил тут с одним американским профессором – фамилию, сам понимаешь, назвать не могу, – чей сын работал со Сноуденом. Так этот сын сказал, что Сноуден – человек исключительного ума и хладнокровия: другой бы такую операцию не провернул.*  
– Сноуден оставил без работы не меньше ста тысяч американцев, а уж в какую сумму им влетят его разоблачения – думаю, тут речь о десятках миллиардов. Потому что придется увольнять всех, кто имел дело с прежней системой слежки и мониторинга; придется строить новую систему, потому что от этого тотального мониторинга национальная безопасность США все равно не откажется... 
Споры идут главным образом о том, «знал ли Обама» – помнишь, как у нас в свое время спорили, «знал ли Сталин». Допускаю, что Обама знал не все: руководитель агентства по национальной безопасности делает президенту доклад при вступлении в должность, это так называемая передача дел, и я вполне допускаю, что Обама не все услышал и не всему придал значение. Америка, как и Россия, большая страна, и бардак в ней тоже большой. Спецслужбы, разумеется, нигде в мире не находятся под контролем гражданского общества. Уже и то огромный прогресс, что конгресс запросил у Обамы и у руководителя АНБ – генерала Александера – сведения о том, действительно ли прослушивалась Меркель. И будь уверен, они не отстанут. Журналисты тоже вцепились, как бульдоги, – я был женат на американской журналистке и знаю, какая это хищническая профессия. Можем мы себе представить, как в Госдуму вызвали руководителя ФСБ и Путина для дискуссии о прослушке? Да у нас все уверены, что прослушивают всех, и не видят в этом ничего исключительного!
Что касается личности Сноудена. Я не думаю, что это хладнокровный и коварный разоблачитель. По-моему, он принадлежит к числу так называемых blown vessels – нарушителей спокойствия, буквально «пароходных гудков». Это часть американской культуры, ниша национального героя, который видит, что нарушается закон, и бьет тревогу. 
Иное дело, что человек он депрессивный, эмоционально нестабильный, с женщинами какие-то проблемы – что часто бывает у таких героев: у Ассанжа что-то было не очень хорошо с девочками. А информатор Ассанжа, рядовой Мэннинг, сам в итоге оказался девочкой. Раньше широко практиковалось привлечение к терактам депрессивных людей с суицидными намерениями: ему все равно, так пусть самоубивается с пользой! Но выяснилась обидная вещь: такие ребята легко меняют намерения. Впадают то в депрессию, то в эйфорию. Сноуден вряд ли хладнокровно готовился взорвать общественное мнение. Он, может, что-то и копировал, но, во-первых, ни одного сенсационного разоблачения от него пока не пришло. Во-вторых, его бегство выглядит достаточно спонтанным, непродуманным. А в-третьих, если бы он действительно так много вывез и знал – разве его отец свободно летал бы к нему? И что особенно интересно – тут объявили, что он нашел работу в крупной российской интернет-компании. Интересно, в какой, если все их серверы находятся в Силиконовой долине? Неужели «Яндекс» или «В контакте» решатся поссориться с американцами? А если они решились дать работу Сноудену – и это действительно правда, – значит, не такой уж он и враг. *
– Сам-то ты как думаешь – он герой или предатель?*
– Я солидарен с большей частью американцев, которым вообще не присущ экстатический восторг по поводу государства. Им кажется, что несколько штатов решились жить вместе – и прекрасно, и не нужно им никакое общее правительство, местное прекрасно справляется. И президент – фигура чисто представительская, а военное ведомство и разведка вообще нуждаются в постоянном гражданском контроле и ограничении аппетитов... Так что Сноуден этим большинством отнюдь не воспринимается как предатель. Проблема в ином – что, если он всеми начнет восприниматься как пример для подражания? А это обязательно будет, и вслед за Ассанжем и Сноуденом появится множество нарушителей конвенций. Представь, что будет, если возникнет полномасштабный конфликт чьей-то гражданской совести и военной тайны? Уже в будущем году я ожидаю нового Сноудена, не обязательно американского. И в этом смысле, пожалуй, даже хорошо, что в Америке есть мода на него – будут книжки, наверняка выйдет фильм, – а в России пока нет."

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## Юрка

> Сноуден оставил без работы не меньше ста тысяч американцев

  

> придется строить новую систему, потому что от этого тотального мониторинга национальная безопасность США все равно не откажется...

 Взаимоисключающие утверждения. Если придётся строить новую систему, то появятся новые рабочие места.  

> Можем мы себе представить, как в Госдуму вызвали руководителя ФСБ и Путина для дискуссии о прослушке? Да у нас все уверены, что прослушивают всех, и не видят в этом ничего исключительного!

 Если факты воспримаются населением бурно, это значит, что население живёт иллюзиями, которые вошли в конфликт с фактами.
Если факты воспримаются населением спокойно, то это значит, что население мыслит трезво, и оно не околпачено пропагандой.

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## Hanna

I am still angry that people are rude to Lampada, who is not a political person! She is just a person with a heart, and not into ideologies - prefers to use her brain for other things. It's clear from all her posts. 
And in terms of political view: Anyone who moves "СССР -> США" as Lampada, is hardly a "bolshevichka".  
Anyway, interesting article.   I hope things are going well for Snowden in his new job, and that he is able to replenish his personal finances.

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## UhOhXplode

> Whatever, Miss Bolshevik. 
> Edit:  Okay, I edited my post for ya.    I think the following illustrates what is going on with Russia and that Putin didn't accept Mr. Snowden out of the kindness of his heart.    Americans have PRISM, and the Russians have SORM and PAK. — Phantom Report Russia’s Hypocrisy on Snowden | The Interpreter FSB Seeking to Expand Online Surveillance | News | The Moscow Times Skype, Gmail and Hotmail give encryption codes to Russian security services (FSB). [Archief] - Marokko Community 
> Look up SORM.   Educate yourselves.   
> But, by all means,  keep posting the daily neo-soviet drivel here ...

 When President Putin heard about PRISM, he was impressed and he called it a "workable system". That was in a news feed so he wasn't trying to hide anything. It was also in a news feed that he ordered stepped-up surveillance for the Sochi olympics. Again, he wasn't trying to hide anything. 
Btw, I have a few issues with this article:  

> In most Western countries, law enforcement agencies and special services they need to get court approval for eavesdropping. This document is presented to mobile operators and ISPs.

 Americans have PRISM, and the Russians have SORM and PAK. — Phantom Report 
The only court the US security services get approval from is the FISA court and they never refused any of their requests. And how can anyone get all the court orders they'd need to wiretap and spy on over 300,000,000 Americans?
Yes, Russia has SORM and I wouldn't be very impressed if they didn't. National security and surveillance are vital for any Nation that wants to survive. At least Russia let the people know what they were doing. 
About Snowden: When he made all those leaks, I thought he was a traitor. Now I think he's just an idealist so I hope his new job works out. Maybe if he gets happy working and living in Russia, he can stop thinking about politics. I mean, how many people really believe that the internet or androids are private. I never believed that. And surveillance is a cool way to stop violence.
Anyway, Snowden is innocent. He didn't bust into the building to get the information. Our lame National security service let him walk in and take it. But did the Obama administration or Congress get all hot about that? No. They just wanted vengeance... and they still do. The real criminals are the ones that let him get into the building and take the information.
What really hurt about the Snowden thing was when I realized how weak our Country is. I mean we have a President that's all gay and a National security that's not secure and we've been sending money and arms to terrorists in Syria! And that's too nuts to even discuss! 
Btw, "neo-soviet drivel" is a poor choice of words in an intelligent discussion. Just saying.

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## Lampada

> ...Lampada, who is not a political person! She is just a person with a heart, ...

 Спасибо на добром слове, Ханочка!   ::

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## 14Russian

> Btw, "neo-soviet drivel" is a poor choice of words in an intelligent discussion. Just saying.

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## rockzmom

Bill Maher Celebrity Christmas Books  _"We See You when you're Sleeping"_ by The NSA.  
Love it!  Bill Maher Celebrity Christmas Books | Kick! Making Politics Fun  http://rackjite.com/bill-maher-celeb...ristmas-books/

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## DrBaldhead

> По-моему, он принадлежит к числу так называемых blown vessels – нарушителей спокойствия, буквально «пароходных гудков». Это часть американской культуры, ниша национального героя, который видит, что нарушается закон, и бьет тревогу.

 Is "blown vessel" a real term? I've heard about the term "whistle blower", yet the term "blown vessel" I see for the first time. I suspect this is a case of misheard speech. 
Somebody still remembers Snowden? Aren't his fifteen minutes of glory over yet? Ah, never mind.

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## 14Russian

> I am still angry that people are rude to Lampada, who is not a political person! She is just a person with a heart, and not into ideologies - prefers to use her brain for other things. It's clear from all her posts. 
> And in terms of political view: Anyone who moves "СССР -> США" as Lampada, is hardly a "bolshevichka".  
> Anyway, interesting article.   I hope things are going well for Snowden in his new job, and that he is able to replenish his personal finances.

 Yes, not political at all.   LOL!     
masterrussian.net/f13/не-всё-благополучно-в-сша-что-то-даже-хуже-чем-в-россии-21456/ 
(Deleted. L.)

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## Lampada

> Yes, not political at all.   LOL!     
> masterrussian.net/f13/не-всё-благополучно-в-сша-что-то-даже-хуже-чем-в-россии-21456/ 
> (Deleted. L.)

 For calling people here names ("_the sheep flock_" pretty insulting and disrespectful).  As the warning has been given already, 14Russian gets 7 day ban.

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## Deborski

Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald: The Men Who Leaked the NSA's Secrets | Politics News | Rolling Stone 
Excellent and in-depth article about Snowden and Greenwald from Rolling Stone.  Very thorough portrait of Snowden's background, his journey from hacker to NSA contractor to whistleblower and vilified spy.  Very good investigative journalism and writing.   

> Like Bradley Manning, whose case he would later study, Snowden had an idealized view of the United States and its role in the world. He also had a gamer's sense of his own ability to beat the odds – he'd later tell Greenwald that his moral outlook had been shaped by the video games he played as a kid, in which an everyman-type battles tremendous and seemingly invulnerable forces of injustice, and prevails. Following that ethos, and deeply affected by 9/11, Snowden enlisted in the Army in 2004, hoping to join the Special Forces and fight in Iraq. "I believed in the goodness of what we were doing," he said. "I believed in the nobility of our intentions to free oppressed people overseas." But he was quickly disabused of this idea – "Most of the people training us seemed pumped up about killing Arabs, not helping anyone," he said – and months into his Special Forces training course at Fort Benning, Snowden later said, he broke both his legs and was discharged.

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## DrBaldhead

This is the era when videogames affect one's political views no less than books do. Mostly because there were no videogames in other eras.

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## Lampada

_"Wikileaks и Сноуден многих научили тому что по-настоящему секретные документы могут быть только бумажными. Кое-где даже пишущие машинки опять появились." _ _"Федеральная служба охраны РФ заказала 20 пишущих машинок. Соответствующий заказ размещен на сайте госзакупок. В соответствии с документацией, каждый аппарат ФСО планирует приобрести примерно за 10 тысяч рублей._"  http://lenta.ru/news/2013/07/11/tape/

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## Ramil



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## Hanna

> Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald: The Men Who Leaked the NSA's Secrets | Politics News | Rolling Stone 
> Excellent and in-depth article about Snowden and Greenwald from Rolling Stone.  Very thorough portrait of Snowden's background, his journey from hacker to NSA contractor to whistleblower and vilified spy.  Very good investigative journalism and writing.

 Thanks Deborski, the article seems very good. Snowden is an extremely interesting person and who can blame him for starting out idealistic and loving his country? We all are a bit blind about our own countries. Don't blame him for working for the NSA either, everyone needs food on the table and obviously you get tempted to take the best paying or most interesting options. That job must have been a geek's paradise if you take the politics out of it. But he finally did one of the bravest things anyone's done in Intelligence for a long time.  
I bet most people have stopped following the leaks, but there is a new one almost every week and it just keeps getting worse.  
Imagine that they now try to sway the discussions in forums and on social networking sites!  A lot of people just have a sheep mentality and will go with the heard. If they can figure out how to use bots or swamp sites with their messages at the level that would drown the real discourse, then it's the most genius form of censorship and propaganda that was EVER invented. Göbbels, eat your heart out.

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## Ramil

> But he finally did one of the bravest things anyone's done in Intelligence for a long time.

 Say what you will, but the thing he did has always been called treason. In every country at every time. I disapprove even though he was betraying our opponents.

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## Hanna

> Say what you will, but the thing he did has always been called treason. In every country at every time. I disapprove even though he was betraying our opponents.

 Wouldn't you want to know, if your country was doing this kind of stuff?  I would!  
There is a border line where morality and decency kicks in and overrides patriotism, I think.  
Do you think Solzhenitsyn was a traitor for writing "The Gulag Archipelago" and "Ivan Denisovitj", and clearing off to the USA? 
And another example, different, but with a parallel: That officer who tried to kill Hitler? I'd say he was a German patriot.

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## Ramil

1. I would want to know too, but then again he was not supposed to compromise the state secrets he had *sworn* to protect.
2. What concerns Solzhenitsin - yes I consider him a traitor, a liar and an enemy of Russian people. One of the worst kind Russia ever produced.
3. That German officer is a traitor too despite all sympaties we might have towards him now. 
We can be sympathetic to traitors, we can understand their motives, but they still remain traitors nevertheless. 
Once a traitor - always a traitor.

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## Crocodile

> Once a traitor - always a traitor.

 That is a nice saying, however, I insist it should work both ways. That is the citizens do not betray the state and the state does not betray the citizens. And we all know the latter is rarely (if not never) a case. Therefore, I think the personal views should outweigh the oath to a state. Also, consider the fact that the oath is usually solemnly intended to be given to "the peoples" or any other decent notion, but in reality it is ALWAYS excercised by the limited number of criminals.

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## Ramil

> the state does not betray the citizens

 You know my views. State IS a crime. Snowden had the choice when entering the NSA. He could refuse. I still disapprove.

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## Crocodile

> You know my views. State IS a crime.

 I know your views and, as you know, I disagree with thew (partially). I think a state is a lawful entity, but the law could either be legitimate or illegitimate depending on the personal views of the people. Hence, in my opinion, the personal views are of a higher priority than the law and the state. Obviously, that is why a state would work hard to shape the personal views of its citizens in its own favour. And that is why betraying the state (a group of criminals that is) is a bad-bad crime in the eyes of the statesmen. And that is why they shape the public opinion to convince us that being a traitor is bad.   

> Snowden had the choice when entering the NSA. He could refuse. I still disapprove.

 I am pretty sure he had different intentions when he had sworn the allegiance to the NSA...  ::

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## Ramil

> the personal views are of a higher priority than the law and the state

 State is a legalized form of violence. Someone's personal views may contradict the other's and that's where the state brings up the law (a formalized set of someone else's personal views) and brings violence upon the one whose personal views contradict the views of the majority. Since the state is a legal entity and it has a law that prohibited Snowden to disclose the information he was entrusted with, Snowden's guilty! Thinking otherwise would question the personal views of the majority which is called law.
This all is schizophrenia, of course, but you insist, that the state is a rational thing.  ::    

> I am pretty sure he had different intentions when he had sworn the allegiance to the NSA...

 To serve and protect the people of the United States? Heh, actually his actions endangered some of his colleagues who also happenned to be the citizens of the United States.

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## Crocodile

> Since the state is a legal entity and it has a law that prohibited Snowden to disclose the information he was entrusted with, Snowden's guilty!

 Absolutely! He is guilty of treason and the legalized form of violence could come upon him any time they could physically pass through another kind of the legalized form of violence without a violence being imposed upon them in a very legal way.  ::  But, personally, Snowden has my approval of being a traitor under the specific circumstances as being delivered to us by the media (which might, by the way, be all lie). Having said that, I personally think Snowden's actions were not mature and I would not do that if I were him. He believed that by exposing the simple fact that the statesmen are criminal he would do his people a favour and that, I think, is childish. At the best, these criminals would be replaced by another criminals who are just looking for a chance to take over the power. The consequences of those actions to the ordinary people who just want to live their lives are either bad or nothing.

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## Ramil

Idealists like Snowden, as history shows, are the most dangerous ones. They do the most damage. Him inside the NSA's secrets reminds me of this:  
P.S. Was there anything you didn't know or suspected about in what Snowden's published? All he did was showing everyone the underwear of his government. The government that paid him his salary.

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## Crocodile

> Idealists like Snowden, as history shows, are the most dangerous ones. They do the most damage.

 I agree. The fact that he's a traitor does not bother me too much, but the butterfly effect of his actions is unpredictable mostly because his actions could serve example to some other even less careful individuals out there. As to the 'revellations', no they don't impress me much. Perhaps the US were able to acheive more since they were able to spend more, but that about it, I guess..

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## Hanna

> State is a legalized form of violence. Someone's personal views may contradict the other's and that's where the state brings up the law (a formalized set of someone else's personal views) and brings violence upon the one whose personal views contradict the views of the majority. Since the state is a legal entity and it has a law that prohibited Snowden to disclose the information he was entrusted with, Snowden's guilty! Thinking otherwise would question the personal views of the majority which is called law.
> This all is schizophrenia, of course, but you insist, that the state is a rational thing.    
> To serve and protect the people of the United States? Heh, actually his actions endangered some of his colleagues who also happenned to be the citizens of the United States.

 
I really don't understand how you can defend this disgusting programme!  
This is 1984 x 1984 ! The USA has turned into a menace to the freedom of the world, and has to be stopped. _(Note to the NSA and GCHQ: Just expressing feelings not stating any intentions.)_ 
Snowden believed that the USA was good initially, it once was, pretty decent and it has some good aspects to it. Then he dawned on him that it's become rather evil, particularly from the perspective of non-Americans or poor Americans.  
It's out of control with the invasions, bases everywhere and now spying on everyone!  He couldn't live with his conscience and took action. I think he's brave!   
If it was discovered that Russia had some evil plans or activities against its own citizens, or the world, I would applaud anyone who disclosed it. I doubt they've got anything that evil though.  
Snowden did the decent and moral thing. I don't care if that technically makes him a traitor.  
It is MORALLY WRONG to follow the orders of a corrupt and invalid state.  
An example which is a bit dubious, but applies: Remember those border guards who shot a few people who tried to cross the border between East/West Germany? It was just regular guys doing their military service. As I understand it, most of them had a half-hearted belief in the ideology and that the state was justified.  They may have thought that the people who were shot were a danger, they were spies or something. And some of the border crossers probably were. Either way,  they were following orders and they probably didn't even shoot with the intention of killing.  
But in united Germany they were prosecuted and sentenced to prison. 
The relevance is that they _WERE_ held responsible for their actions during a (supposedly) corrupt regime. 
In retrospect, the expectation on them was that they should have refused top shoot and taken the consequences, or they should have refused military service in the first place. I never heard anyone complain that the trials against these people were wrong.  *
As for what you said about states:* States are good if they are *not fascist* and *not oppressive*, imo....

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## Hanna

> Idealists like Snowden, as history shows, are the most dangerous ones. They do the most damage. Him inside the NSA's secrets reminds me of this: 
> P.S. Was there anything you didn't know or suspected about in what Snowden's published? All he did was showing everyone the underwear of his government. The government that paid him his salary.

 Yes you might have GUESSED some of it, and so did I of course. There were some signs, and it made logical sense that it would be happening.  
But even as an IT professional, and rather paranoid one at that, I could never have guessed the scope of this.
I don't believe you guys when you said there was nothing new. You couldn't have known all that!  
Unless you also reveal that you work for the Russian intelligence service, they knew it, of course!

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## Ramil

> He couldn't live with his conscience and took action. I think he's brave!

 Bravery often comes together with stupidity. This is the case.    

> If it was discovered that Russia had some evil plans or activities against its own citizens, or the world, I would applaud anyone who disclosed it. I doubt they've got anything that evil though.

 Right now, at this very moment, the Russian government is probably doing one or even several disgusting things all governments do. Disclosure won't make them stop.   

> Snowden did the decent and moral thing. I don't care if that technically makes him a traitor.

 I would agree if we could agree upon what's 'moral' and what's 'immoral'. You're applying your ethics and morality to everyone around you falsely assuming that these things are universally accepted.   

> It is MORALLY WRONG to follow the orders of a corrupt and invalid state.

 That word again. What if I told you that this corrupt and invalid state saves millions of lives every day by its mere existance? It may be corrupt and invalid, but it herds 300 million idiots trying very hard to keep them relatively safe and well-fed. Discrupting this state won't make people happy. I saw the fall of USSR. There was no happiness.   

> An example which is a bit dubious, but applies: ... But in united Germany they were prosecuted and sentenced to prison...I never heard anyone complain that the trials against these people were wrong.

 That only proves that since 1945 there was no original thought in Western Europe. Everyone thought what's moral and what's not in accordance to what the media had been telling them. To throw your life away by not shooting an idiot who decided to jump a fence - great choice!   

> As for what you said about states:[/B] States are good if they are *not fascist* and *not oppressive*, imo....

 State is a form of formalized monopoly for violence. How can it be unopressive?    

> I could never have guessed the scope of this. I don't believe you guys when you said there was nothing new. You couldn't have known all that!

 Actually, I think that Snowden didn't cover a tenth part of what's really going on. I'm afraid that he simply had no access to the most disgusting secrets of the US. Fortunately.

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## Hanna

You drive me crazy Ramil!  ::   You know perfectly well that the USA is out of order yet you appear to be defending it on a technicality.  
As for morality yes. I agree that it's an subjective term. Unless you decide you believe in a particular religion. I happen to think that Biblical morality is good and a reasonably standard for right and wrong. But you can't force this on others, it must be a personal choice. It was never intended to be foundation of national laws. 
And the Bible doesn't exactly comment on the morality of spying on the whole world and saving+datamining it indefinitely. 
That's my personal morality.  
Perhaps it's covered in "Thou shalt not bear false witness" or "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy  people." (I'm trying to think o something applicable from the bible...)  
And yes, I value personal and religious morality OVER state morality. Christianity says that people should follow the laws of the land except when the contradict with Christianity. I think that makes sense. And I think Christianity is against all war, so killing anyone in the army, is wrong.  
With this I am not saying that I am living a 100% biblical life, just that it's an external and objective sourse of morality that stands outside things like nation states and culture.  
The state has burned women at the stake for witchcraft, discriminated against people because of religion or ideology, and been tools in the hands of corrupt rich people. I maintain that it's morally defendable to go against the state as Snowden did, if you are genuinely convinced that the state is acting immorally. What are we otherwise.... state drones.......?  
And I don't believe for a second that the surveillance is protecting us from terrorism! 
I think we are seeing the beginning of a fascist globalist dictatorship that will make 1984 look like child's play. 
Or genuinely, the scenario from Revelation in the bible with antichrists empire and the mark of the beast without which you can't buy or sell.

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## diogen_

> _"Wikileaks и Сноуден многих научили тому что по-настоящему секретные документы могут быть только бумажными. Кое-где даже пишущие машинки опять появились." _ _"Федеральная служба охраны РФ заказала 20 пишущих машинок. Соответствующий заказ размещен на сайте госзакупок. В соответствии с документацией, каждый аппарат ФСО планирует приобрести примерно за 10 тысяч рублей._"  http://lenta.ru/news/2013/07/11/tape/

 Бывший президент США Джимми Картер признался, что не использует электронную почту, так как Агентство национальной безопасности может отслеживать его переписку, сообщает CNN. 
В связи с этим в случае появления необходимости отправить кому-либо важное письмо президент собственноручно печатает или пишет от руки письмо, после чего отправляет его по обычной почте. 
Комментируя скандалы по поводу шпионажа со стороны АНБ, Картер отметил, что «практики по добыче разведданных значительно либерализовались, в связи с чем стали объектом злоупотребления со стороны спецслужб». 
Примечательно, что ранее экс-президент открыто поддержал действия экс-сотрудника спецслужб США Эдварда Сноудена, передавшего СМИ сведения о ведущейся спецслужбами США, в частности АНБ, глобальной программе слежки.  Экс-президент США Джимми Картер не использует e-mail из-за страха слежки АНБ - Газета.Ru | Новости   ::

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## Ramil

For some reason, I missed this post.  ::    

> You drive me crazy Ramil!   You know perfectly well that the USA is out of order yet you appear to be defending it on a technicality.

 I'm not defending USA per se. I'm defending people who live there.    

> I happen to think that Biblical morality is good and a reasonably standard for right and wrong.

 Biblical morality is only good when  you apply double (or even triple) standards over the same things. Bible has too much ambiguities and mutually contradictory statements to be a good guidebook on morality.    

> And yes, I value personal and religious morality OVER state morality.

 Say that again - state morality? What's that? Besides, a state cannot exist if it respects every and all of its citizens. In order to function normally state now and then has to step on a few necks. Even a 'perfect state' from Utopia would have to do that - to do little evils for a greater good. What can be said about normal states? Your libertarian views can only function normally in anarchism but then again you wouldn't like that very much.  ::    

> Christianity says that people should follow the laws of the land except when the contradict with Christianity. I think that makes sense. And I think Christianity is against all war, so killing anyone in the army, is wrong.

 _ Epistle to the Romans (Paul), Chapter 13 
Obedience in Authority.
1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
2 Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4 for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
6 This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due._  
Please, do not bring Christianity to this. I will always prove you are wrong with the quotes from Bible  ::    

> The state has burned women at the stake for witchcraft, discriminated against people because of religion or ideology, and been tools in the hands of corrupt rich people.

 1. See above
2. It was not the state. It was people who did that.   

> And I don't believe for a second that the surveillance is protecting us from terrorism!

 You may not believe it, but normal people never know when their intelligence succeeded. They know only its failures. Technically this helps to prevent many acts of terrorism (among other things, of course)  ::  
To cut it short - a modern day state simply cannot exist if it does not spy on its own people. Like it or not. Every state does it and every state will.

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