# Forum About Russia Travel and Tourism  US - Russia Visas

## capecoddah

Are changes going to happen?  
From The Moscow Times: Medvedev Asks U.S. to Ditch Travel Visas         14 March 2011
     By Nikolaus von Twickel
                  President Dmitry Medvedev has jumped onto the visa-free travel  bandwagon, with his top foreign policy adviser declaring that  the Kremlin sent a proposal to cancel visas to the White House before  last week's surprise announcement by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin.          
              But analysts warned that the country was nowhere near meeting  the U.S. Visa Waiver Program's stringent requirements and speculated  that the Russian initiative reflected frustration over ongoing talks  for visa-free travel with Europe.          
              Kremlin foreign policy chief Sergei Prikhodko told reporters Friday  that Medvedev had called for an end to visas before Putin brought it up  during talks with Vice President Joe Biden on Thursday. 
From The New York Times: Putin Throws Curveball to Biden With Suggestion on Visas *By ELLEN BARRY*  *Published: March 11, 2011   *  
MOSCOW — When Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. sat down for his meeting with Vladimir V. Putin this week, the Russian prime minister opened with a curveball.         
After noting joint projects on the table — cooperation on missile defense and Russia’s accession to the World Trade Organization,  among others — Mr. Putin cheerily suggested a brand-new idea:  abolishing visa requirements between Russia and the United States. The  early part of the meeting was featured on Russian television. 
 Mr. Biden responded “Good idea,” and Mr. Putin seized on the response,  saying he hoped Mr. Biden would make the case for the change in  Washington. The vice president then backpedaled, explaining that he does  not decide such matters.        
 “Mr. Prime Minister, in case you haven’t noticed, there’s a real  difference between being president and vice president,” he said, perhaps  referring to the structure of Russia’s leadership, in which Mr. Putin  occupies the country’s second-highest post but is widely viewed as its  paramount leader.

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## chaika

Hey, I got an idea for them -- why doesn't the Russian government drop all its visa requirements for Americans? And then just wait for the US to do the same for Russia? Do they not see the slight imbalance between travel between the two countries, I mean, how many US citizens have overstayed their Russian visa with intent to remain there?

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## gRomoZeka

> And then just wait for the US to do the same for Russia?

 Yeah, for a couple of centuries. ))
You are right, of course, and there are much more Russians hoping to visit the US, than there are Americans going to Russia, and the risk of Americans staying in Russia illegally is very low. But I think it's quite natural that Russia tries to get something in return: US visas policy towards Russia and some CIS countries is unreasonably strict.

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## sperk

> Are changes going to happen?

 I wouldn't hold my breath. They've been trying to set up a visa free thing with Europe for years.

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## sperk

Телекомпания НТВ. Официальный сайт | Новости НТВ | США упрощают визовый режим для  
This says Russians are going to get 3 year (!) tourist visas. Nothing about vice-versa. I can't find anything in English on this.

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## Hanna

I think there are some discussions with the EU about it too. 
This must happen,* it's a disgrace that we can't travel freely within Europe 20 years after the cold war.*  
The visa regime is totally pointless in my opinion. Scumbags from Russia and the other CIS countries who want to be in Europe are already there, so visa requirements will not stop them. Not even the USSR borders could keep them out, in fact. 
And nobody from Europe would be stupid enough to go to Russia and commit crimes or try to live on social welfare, so there is not much for Russia to worry about on that front. 
All that the visa regime does, is make travelling more expensive, time consuming and frustrating for NORMAL decent people who just want a holiday or want to experience another culture etc. It's not possible to travel spontaneously when visa processing is so complicated.  
Europe has a lot to learn from Russia (and the other CIS countries) and vice versa. I think there is everything to win and practically nothing to lose by losening up this visa regime. I think it would help if the EU stopped constantly critisizing Russia and being generally paranoid about Russia's military. Let the Russians sort out their politics and internal problems themselves - the EU has plenty of its own issues to worry about! Greece, the Euro, immigration, the Belgian problem and Lord knows what else... In the meantime we can co operate in science, culture, education and industry.  *I can't see what problems that losening the visa regime it would cause for the EU or Russia/ CIS to losen restrictions... Can anybody else think of anything?*  
As for the USA-Russia, I really don't know, but it's a longer journey and a bigger commitment since they there is an ocean to cross...   
And think of the people in Kaliningrad, they are almost locked in, or people affected by the split up of the USSR, such as Russian speakers in the Baltic states.

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## Marcus

> Nobody from Europe would be stupid enough to go to Russia and commit crimes

 Are you sure, although visas do not help much, probably. Spies, for example, come from Europe. I remember an English drug dealer was executed in China.

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## Hanna

Well there are always exceptions to the rule!!!  ::  
And I don't remember anything about an Englishman being executed in China! That would have been front page news.... 
I am sure there is already plenty of spying in Russia by Europeans and others. Visa requirements won't stop them since they'll pass themselves off as businessmen, embassy staff and get a visa without problems.  
There might be "white collar" crimes by Europeans in Russia but again, I don't think visas play any roll in controlling that.

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## Юрка

Согласен. Визы надо отменять. А шпионить в России иностранцы не умеют. Чтобы сделать хорошего шпиона нужно его долго тренеровать, учить языку и всё равно он "провалится", покупая пирожки.  ::  Поэтому они давно используют наших агентов, которые за копеечку продадут всё, что знают. 
Но, быть может, Европа боится трудовых мигрантов из России? Русские не очень мобильны и далеко работать не поедут. А вот таджики, узбеки и прочие - с удовольствием.

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## Hanna

Labour immigration is not really a problem as long as the people in question WORK which no doubt people from Russia would do.  
The balance between East / West / North / South is working quite well in the EU right now. 
The problem are with non-Europeans and with that I mean Africans, Middle East people who have a different culture and are not able to adapt or learn the language.  
The problem is the people who don't work but live on welfare and have large families who also need to live on welfare, etc etc. "Refugees" for example are not allowed to work until the issue about their refugee status is resolved. This can take many YEARS. In the meantime, the country where they are is supporting them financially while they do NOTHING apart from maybe attend some (free) language classes. Once the refugee claim has been investigated, most of the people are NOT refugees and are told to leave. In the case of Sweden etc, where you can not really live without documents of your identity, they usually leave. But in England and some other countries that are not strict with documentation, the people simply stay on illegally instead. This is also bad because they are living in the twilight economy, exploited and illegally.  
As for people from ex Soviet countries, there were plenty of problems with crooks from the Baltic countries in Scandinavia in in the 90s, but this has reduced I think. Now instead, I have read that there are people from Uzbekistan who make it to Scandinavia (land route - the border Finland - Russia is apparently quite porous. Finland won't have anything to do with them, so they continue to Sweden.) They claim political asylum, i.e that they are dissidents, persecuted etc. Not sure what the situation with this really is.  
The only Russian speakers I have met in Sweden are smart and hard working people in professional type jobs. In the 1990s there were some problems with criminals but that has stopped now.  
In the UK there are lots of really rich Russians living. Not sure what they actually DO in the UK, but I have seen them in expensive shops and restaurants. The only other Russians I have met in the UK are programmers.  
I have no idea what kind of Europeans go to Russia and work.... I think perhaps workers in multinational companies, language teachers,  perhaps people involved in voluntary work. Can't imagine they'd be much trouble either.

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## Crocodile

> А шпионить в России иностранцы не умеют. Чтобы сделать хорошего шпиона нужно его долго тренеровать, учить языку и всё равно он "провалится", покупая пирожки.

 Токмо справедливости ради... Ни одна разведка мира не будет пытаться переучить "своего" человека настолько, чтобы выдать его за "ихнего" человека. Это практически невозможно и бессмысленно. Русский человек провалится, покупая в Швейцарии лыжи. Или прыгая в воду в Антарктиде не совсем так, как остальные пингвины.  ::  Поэтому, резиденты работают под официальным прикрытием и вербуют агентов из местного населения. И при этом воруют секреты, в основном, не страны, в которой находятся, а секреты соседних стран.   

> Поэтому они давно используют наших агентов, которые за копеечку продадут всё, что знают.

 Или так, но там своя специфика. Тоже не просто.

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## capecoddah

From The Moscow Times: Investors Cheer Visa, WTO Progress
ST. PETERSBURG — In a significant easing of visa rules, U.S. and  Russian citizens will soon be able to secure three-year multiple-entry  visas and will not need to secure visa invitations, U.S. Ambassador John Beyrle said Thursday.
   Beyrle’s announcement and buoyant optimism about Russia joining the  World Trade Organization this year gave investors much to cheer about at  the opening of the three-day St. Petersburg International Economic  Forum.
   Beyrle won spontaneous applause when he announced at a Russia-U.S.  business session that the major travel liberalization between both  countries was just three weeks away.
   Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov  will sign an agreement giving tourists and business travelers from both  countries the three-year multiple-entry visas “as a general rule,”  Beyrle said.
   He acknowledged that existing hassles for obtaining visas were “the  most pervasive barriers” for business and said the liberalization would  have “a huge impact on a more active economic relationship.”
   He also promised that the agreement was just the start.
   “Three years is just the first step,” he said.

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## sperk

A three year multiple entry visa is pretty incredible, I'm not aware of the US having anything of the sort with any other country. And within 3 weeks with no congress approval BS.  The big boys must be talking behind doors. This seems like a really positive development in US-Russian relations. It's time for this pointless and self defeating US gov't negativity toward Russia to end.

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## chaika

sperk, the reason the US has stringent visa restrictions is that so many people want to move here. We are the land of milk and honey, you come here legally and you can go on welfare and get free money. And even as an illegal you can obtain certain free government benefits. The visa regulations here are not "self-defeating."

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## Marcus

The Usa criticised the USSR because it did not allow its citizens to leave the country, and now they do not want to give visas to Russian people. Isn't it hypocritical? Are there many illegal Russian immigrants? Many people have emigrated to America during the last 20 years, but who gained from that?? America. Many young qualified specialists went there. Without immigration the USA simply wouldn't exist. How can they say Russia is not open enough if they made entering their country so difficult.

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## Throbert McGee

> The problem are with non-Europeans and with that I mean Africans, Middle  East people who have a different culture and are not able to adapt or learn the language.

 Are they *unable* to adapt and learn the language, or do they decide that it's *not worth the trouble* to adapt and learn the language because most of the natives will never accept them or their children or their grandchildren as "real Danes" or "real Frenchmen" or "real Russians"? 
I know that in U.S. history, it was a long and painful struggle to persuade the majority of "native-born Americans" that someone born in China or Ecuador or Nigeria could become a "real" American. We're much better at this acceptance of non-European immigrants than we were in the past, but we're still working on it. However, when I read about the problems caused by non-assimilated Africans and Muslims in Europe, I always wonder: Is the real problem that they are not trying to assimilate, or that they try to assimilate but then give up because they are treated as "others"?

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## Hanna

Well don't get carried away by any of this just yet. The situation has NOT changed whatsoever and it's really bad.  
I was at the Russian (in Minsk) embassy today and it was so bloody frustrating that I hardly want to write about it because it's not going to be very polite or flattering about Russia!  
[BEGIN RANT]  
Basically they have the wrong form ON THEIR OWN website and then complained about me filling in the wrong form. I filled in exactly the form that was referenced online, on an official Russian site. And furthermore, the form that I filled in, has the exact same information as the other one. The only difference is the number on top of the form.  
Then they want the original of a document (invitation from some government ministry) which I don't have. The document in question has a unique reference number to a record in a database where they could easily verify that the correct document is stored. But they think it's much more logical for me to ship the physical original doc from Moscow to Minsk via DHL, which will take at least 3 days, and cost 30 Euro.  
Furthermore, they have NO fast track service and the processing of ANY type of visa whatsoever takes a week. 
Additionally, the whole idea of invitations is a joke, since invitations are for sale online and there is no relevance whatsoever to what the person is really going to do in Russia. The registration process too, seems to be just one huge waste of peoples time, since it's either stating the obvious (that a tourist is staying at a hotel) or it's fake (someone bought a phony registration).  
Additionally, just a note - nobody at the entire consulate section could speak English. (I decided to try Crocodile's advice about speaking only English.) But it was literally not a possibility. I think the situation with English as lingua-france is crap too, but it's the reality of the world we live in, and you might think that they would at least have a single staff member who is able to communicate with non-Russian speakers - at an EMBASSY. 
Ok I realise that I should have fixed this bloody visa before I left London, but this is the STONE AGE. I have been to a fair number of countries that require visa and I have never encountered anything like this. The Belarus visa took 2 days in total. That is reasonable. 1 for the invitation and one to get the visa into the passport.  
I have no idea how Russians are treated when they apply for EU visas, but if the process is half as ridiculous as that for Russian visas, then I am really ashamed. 
I am going to go to Vitebsk in North Eastern Belarus and have the document delivered to me there. Once I recieve it, I will consider whether I am going to bother going to Russia or not. I REALLY wanted to and I could never dream it would be so bloody hard! I have already been to Ru for goodness sake, and it was simpler then, in the days of the USSR which everyone thinks is was so bureacratic and useless. But at least they could give a person from a nearby country a flipping visa in 24 hours, which is more than can be said about Russia at the moment!  
I am so fed up with this crap now that I have almost lost my interest in going there.  [END OF RANT!!]

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## Basil77

Hehe, Hanna, I warned you that stuff at Russian embassies all over the world are the worst scumbags you can meet ever. Now you know it from your own experience. The people who works there are generally children of "cool" parents who decided to make a diplomat from their kid and "arranged" for them a diplomatic career, they never achieved anything in their life themselves. Also Belarus embassy considered among the less "cool" embassies so the staff there must be "losers among losers".

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## Hanna

Hm...  Yes, your warning was totally accurate. 
I think the woman made up the requirement for the original doc on the spot, because she didn't like me or something.  
It was amazing to see how people from various countries in Asia came and tried to speak English with her, and she just totally refused even trying. Leaving them to try to use their 5 word Russian vocabulary to explain the problem.  
I checked the requirements for Kaliningrad too, in the hope that they had some special setup there or something - I heard that it was visa free some years back. But now there is a requirement for a visa, and there is no fast tracking available.  
All I can say is that it is fortunate that the Russian language is spoken in other countries too. 
Apparently Kazakhstan does not require visas of EU citizens. (Probably with the condition that they can find the country on a map, and do not mention the word "Borat....")

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## Marcus

> All I can say is that it is fortunate that the Russian language is spoken in other countries too.

 As I said before, it is spoken in Latvia and Estonia. So you don't even have to leave the EU.

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## Hanna

Yes, that is "Plan B" if it turns out completely impossible to get a Russian visa.  _(It's only because I am so interested that I haven't given up yet. Any normal person would have given up a long time ago.)_ 
"Plan B" is to go to Daugavpils (Russian speaking) in Latvia, then Riga and Jurmala (beach resort) then to Estonia and ferry to Finland, then whatever way back from Finland, for example ferry. I'd like to pass the Åland islands on the way back to Sweden, for a personal reason. 
Alternatively I could just take the ferry straight from Riga to Stockholm.  
All these places, are relatively unexciting for me though - I've already been there, I know a fair bit about them and I'm not that keen on Baltic people.   
The cool and interesting thing for me to do would be to go back via St Petersburg (which will be totally unrecognisable for me, I am sure) and then some places in Karelia and perhaps as far up as Murmansk, and then go to Scandinavia from there.  
There used to be a ferry from St Petersburg to Stockholm but it was closed down a few years ago, so now it is necessary to go via Helsinki.  
As you may have guessed, this is a "no-flying" trip.

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## CoffeeCup

> I have no idea how Russians are treated when they apply for EU visas,  but if the process is half as ridiculous as that for Russian visas, then  I am really ashamed.

 Different states of EU have different rules for Russians to get EU visa. For an example, a couple years ago French embassy started to take your application only if you present it to them personally. Not a big deal for those who live in Moscow, but for those who live in Novosibirsk it is a great problem: there are 3500 km from Novosibirsk to Moscow. An applicant has to take a plane at early morning spend  USD 500 and 4 houes to flight to Moscow, put his face in to the French embassy window just for the girl to check that it is his face on the documents and spend USD 500 and 4 hours again to flight back to Novosibirsk. Needless to say that occasionally all the appropriate flights back to Novosibirsk are scheduled at a night time, so to add to applicant's impressions a two-day's non sleeping non-stop. if you think that the guys from Novosibirsk are complaining then think of the guys from Vladivistok which is twice as distant from Moscow as Novosibirsk. Thanks God there are other states in EU which embassies accept the documents sent with an express courier service. 
This is why it is a good idea to fully plan your trip in advance.

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## Hanna

Typical that it should be the French of all people who are doing that. They are known for meaningless bureaucracy and lack of sympathy for people affected. Most other countries would be a bit logical and sensible about this.  
For Schengen visas, I think that it does not matter what country you actually apply for a visa to. I don't know what would happen if you applied to the German embassy for example, and then went to France instead, and then leaving without having been in Germany at all. The hotel bookings can apparently be ignored completely. The only problem is if the person has no credit card that would work in the EU (this happens for Belarussians), or if they book the hotel but don't turn up, the hotel has their details and might charge them anyway.  
And while honest Russians are treated in this way, crazy islamists and african drug barons are simply WALKING across the eastern borders into the EU, or dropped at a beach in Southern Europe. I hate to admit it, but the Russians and Americans are right when they think that the refugee problem in Europe is out of control. It is, and it will probably only get worse. Lord only knows what the solution is. 
The requirement to have a visa organised takes the spontaneity out of travelling though, for example when doing a trip like the one I'm doing now.  
I don't care about America either way, because going there requires flying and it's not totally unreasonable to get a visa at the same time as booking the ticket. But in Europe people should be able to get on a train or a ferry without all this hassle!

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## Eric C.

> The only problem is if the person has no credit card that would work in the EU (this happens for Belarussians)

 How come? Their paradise creators forgot about this little thing?  ::

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## Hanna

You are being a muppet on purpose, aren't you? 
They have Visa Electron, not the standard Visa! Electron is just not accepted everywhere that's all. And believe it or not, it's not a human right or a requirement for a fulfilled life, to have a Visa card. It's simply useful if you are going to book a hotel in Western Europe, that's all.  
And regardless what you think of Lukashenko & co, thanks to him the Belarussians escaped the degrading chaos and national humilition that Russia went through in the 1990s. It's just the last few years it's become fashionable to complain about dictatorship there. Previously nobody cared. Whether Lukashenko is good or bad for the country now, is hard to say. I certainly can't say, and neither can you! The only people whose opinion I really respect on this are the Belarussians, and between the ones I have asked, the split is about 50-50 what they think, with educated people in Minsk being the most suspicious against him.  
But this is not a poor dump. 
My pictures from rural villages are coming soon and it's not as bad as you imagined. Right now I am writing from a very chic coffeeshop where Belarussians are sitting with laptops and other gadgets, eating very tasty food and drinking Italian coffee.

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## Basil77

Hanna, I must say that embassies of EU countries are not being very nice while giving visas for Russian citizens either. I personally know two people who's request for German visas was denied without ANY explanation after they filled all the forms, stood in all those long lines, payed fees and stuff. The only answer they got was "sorry, but we have the right to refuse without explanations and you have payed for the consideration of your visas, the fact you have payed fee does not guarantee that you shall actually get a visa". And those were young decent middle-class people without any criminal background or such. My own mom, a respectable old lady, when she was getting a tourist visa at Sweden embassy a couple of years ago had to bring reference to her property and bank account to prove that she is not a beggar and not planning to emigrate. All this things are quite humiliating, so Russia is not the ONLY bad player in this game.

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## Hanna

> (...)Russia is not the ONLY bad player in this game.

 Yes, totally agree and I have read other stories about Russians being denied visas for absolutely no good reason. Your mother's experience is terrible, there is no other word for it! Europeans should not have to be humiliated when they want to travel in Europe. What was she going to do in Sweden by the way?  
I think it would mean so much, symbolically, for friendship and understanding in Europe, if anyone could travel anywhere without visa. Personally I have no interest in denying Americans visa free travel in Russia, but that's a matter between Russia and the US and not my business. Americans don't need a visa for Europe (apart from Russia and Belarus) anyway.  
If anyone is going to Scandinavia the land route, then it's probably easiest to get a visa for Finland - they give visas to all Russians with no hassle, I have heard.   *The reason I am having trouble now, is to a large extent my own fault - it can't be denied.* I am sure I would have no problem at all, if I had simply started the process 3 weeks before leaving, while still in London. 
The problem is that I was really busy in the period leading up to this journey. I thought that a Russian visa was a mere formality, "pay& go".... I didn't even research it because I was so sure that it would be easy. I also assumed that the procedure was the same regardless of which embassy I went to. 
As it turns out, it is significantly easier (less paperwork) to get the visa in the country where you live, or in the country where your passport is from.  If not, then a whole host of other conditions kick in, and they are not really well known or well documented. There are a few cumbersome formalities too. 
But certainly, nobody has asked for the kind of stuff that your mother got asked for.  
But I feel very strongly that this visa requirement creates problem for NORMAL people who just want a holiday, whereas it does nothing to prevent crooks, spies and undesirable people from entering either the EU or Russia.  
America, is "protected" from suspect Europeans by the Atlantic, in a way, but illegally crossing one of the land borders into Russia or the EU is reputedly not hard at all.  
I am leaning towards passing on Russia actually. I just simply can't be fussed hanging around Minsk anymore waiting for stuff to happen. I might try again in Riga, just in case the embassy there is more relaxed about wanting original invitation. It's a real shame, because going to Russia was the main plan for this trip. 
But I can go later, I suppose.

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## Basil77

> Your mother's experience is terrible, there is no other word for it!  Europeans should not have to be humiliated when they want to travel in  Europe. What was she going to do in Sweden by the way?

  As far as I know it's a common requirement for all Schengen countries for Russian citizens. They wouldn't give you a visa if you haven't a certain amount of money on your account or haven't certain property or haven't a stable and well-payed job. It was an ordinary tourist trip, my mom went on ferry from St.Petersburg to Stockholm and spent several weeks in Sweden and Norway. She likes to travel and spend every vacation in some trip. My wife always complains about the fact that she does not want to act like a typical Russian 'babushka' spending her vacations at dacha with grandchildren.  ::

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## Hanna

I am in Vitebsk at the moment. Really nice town! 
I have decided to give up on Russia. Cutting my losses.   :: 
Russia will be there for my next holiday too.... I am going to Latvia after this.

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## Basil77

> I am in Vitebsk at the moment. Really nice town!

 Unfortunately you've come to Vitebsk a bit early. About two weeks from now Slavyansky Bazar fest will begin, I've been there at once, it's really worth visiting!

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## capecoddah

A few thoughts.
Basil, Most countries where a Visa is necessary have requirements to "prove" you will go home. Russia is no different. I can get an invitation from people I know for a 3 month Visitor status. BUT, I have to have a ticket home and they kinda want me to have a reason to come home like a job, house, family, money, stuff, etc. The J-1 "kids" that come here have to prove all that and jump through a few other hoops as well such as English proficiency. A few stay beyond their visa, and reside as illegals now. Personally, in my small area of the USA, the few Russians here "off the books" are better than the loads of Brazilians here "off the books". They don't segregate themselves, assimilate well and don't whore themselves. Meaning not here just for $, they genuinely like being here. 
Hanna, Congratulations on Belarus! I have quite a few friends there but was basically told I couldn't visit by them. A fist-full of invitations by well respected citizens wouldn't do much good. "You are too American" was the consensus. That's too bad and too political and beyond my control or influence. My friends in the Trinity area have moved and I'm sorry because they would be good tour guides and hosts. They might even say I was a nice guy. 
 Yes, you screwed up. Russia is notorious for bureaucracy. This is a known factor for a visit. EU, Swede, Brit or USA. I visit Washington DC on occasion and have met some Russian Embassy staff "after hours". Most were very nice and offered advice about how to get a visa faster. A couple were miserable bureaucrats trying to live up to a stereotype.  I wish you nothing but the best of luck. Perhaps a Master Russian will extend a Personal Invitation.  
 ALL countries set limits on immigration. Based upon many factors. That's reality. USA used to take in all Russians, not anymore. We are a big place, but we only have so much space. Mexico wants easier regulations to emigrate to the US. You should see the requirements they have for Americans emigrating!  
Life is not fair. That's why it's called life.

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## Hanna

Haha, Capecoddah -  yes, there probably _is_ such a thing as being "too American" for Belarus. 
People are a bit shy and you are not going to get any "how can I help you today, Sirs" or "Have a nice days!" in this country. Not to mention the politics. The people are among the most honest and kindest nationality I have ever come across though. It's one of the last countries in Europe where there is no mass tourism. You can't even find a postcard and you have all the sights (there are plenty) to yourself.  
But you COULD get a visa, I am sure. On what grounds could they deny you? There is no ban on Americans even though admittedly not everyone (particularly not Lukashenko) likes the US. But you could for example buy a fake business invitation online, then you simply say that you are going as a consultant to the company that issued the invitation. Once you are in the country, all you need to do is check into a hotel and register your visa for the duration of the stay. 
I saw an American (could have been Canadian, I suppose) at McDonalds in Minsk. He was having such trouble placing an order for a BigMac meal, that he had 4 staff members helping him..... and quite an audience! 
LOL!

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## Eric C.

> Haha, Capecoddah -  yes, there probably _is_ such a thing as being "too American" for Belarus. 
> People are a bit shy and you are not going to get any "how can I help you today, Sirs" or "Have a nice days!" in this country. Not to mention the politics. The people are among the most honest and kindest nationality I have ever come across though. It's one of the last countries in Europe where there is no mass tourism. You can't even find a postcard and you have all the sights (there are plenty) to yourself.  
> But you COULD get a visa, I am sure. On what grounds could they deny you? There is no ban on Americans even though admittedly not everyone (particularly not Lukashenko) likes the US. But you could for example buy a fake business invitation online, then you simply say that you are going as a consultant to the company that issued the invitation. Once you are in the country, all you need to do is check into a hotel and register your visa for the duration of the stay. 
> I saw an American (could have been Canadian, I suppose) at McDonalds in Minsk. He was having such trouble placing an order for a BigMac meal, that he had 4 staff members helping him..... and quite an audience! 
> LOL!

 LOL at that staff. Wherever else in Europe can you find a MC's where the staff can't speak proper English? 
I'm not sure WHAT is worth visiting there, but living there is not a box of chocolates for sure. The people are blocked from many opportunities each European naturally has. 
By the way, Hanna, since you're still there, try buying some Euros for their local currency for your next trip, and then tell us if it was easy.

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## Hanna

> By the way, Hanna, since you're still there, try buying some Euros for  their local currency for your next trip, and then tell us if it was  easy.

 I did, and I had to pay 6000 BYR to the dollar, instead of the real price which is 5000.   

> LOL at that staff. Wherever else in Europe can you find a MC's where the staff can't speak proper English?

 You need to travel more...

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## capecoddah

From the Moscow Times: *Beyrle: Visas Bigger Deal Than Arms Pact*     05 July 2011
     By Andrew McChesney
                  U.S. Ambassador John Beyrle said Monday that the New START nuclear  arms reduction treaty was important but the real highlight of a "reset"  in U.S.-Russian ties would come next week with the signing of agreements  on liberalized visa rules and child adoptions.
    The two countries' top diplomats, Hillary Clinton and Sergei Lavrov,  are to sign a deal granting three-year multiple-entry visas  and eliminating the need to secure visa invitations during July 12-14  talks in Washington. 
    They will also sign a long-awaited accord aimed at restarting child  adoptions, which stalled in April 2010 when a U.S. mother sent her  7-year-old adopted son back to Russia unaccompanied on a plane.
    Beyrle, speaking at a U.S. Independence Day celebration attended  by about 2,000 guests at his Spaso House residence, said the agreements  illustrate that the United States' relationship with Russia has changed  dramatically since he arrived in Moscow on July 3, 2008 — just in time  to address a similar July 4 gathering at Spaso House.
    "We can talk about a lot that we have got done together over  the last three years, especially this past year, over the past 12  months," Beyrle said, making his remarks first in Russian and then  in English. 
full story:   Beyrle: Visas Bigger Deal Than Arms Pact | News | The Moscow Times

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## sperk

meanwhile in Britain they're demanding that Andrey Lugovoy be convicted for the murder of Alexander Litvinenko before any change in the visa system can be made.  Телекомпания НТВ. Официальный сайт | Новости НТВ | Луговой в обмен на британские визы

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## capecoddah

> meanwhile in Britain they're demanding that Andrey Lugovoy be convicted for the murder of Alexander Litvinenko before any change in the visa system can be made.  Телекомпания НТВ. Официальный сайт | Новости НТВ | Луговой в обмен на британские визы

 You know there is going to be some politicking, but that is par for the course. 
"Meanwhile, on the other side of the island". Americans should know that means a volcano is going to explode or cannibals have landed. ::

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## Hanna

Those crazy Russians!!!  ::  The Litvinenko case is so horrible. Poor man, no matter what he did he should not have died in such a terrible way. 
I can understand that Russia does not surrender Lugovoi though -  everyone who has been reading British papers *knows* that he is guilty,  so he would not get a fair trial at all.  
That murder case is the craziest I have ever heard of. How can anyone  dream up such a crazy way of killing someone. Why didn't they just shoot  him?  (not that I approve of killing people whatsoever). 
But I don't see how this isolated incident is relavant to the visa negotiations. 
I think it's a really urgent priority for Europe to get rid of travel restrictions for European citizens on the European continent. I think it's more important than nukes - that's a long term issue to get rid of those.

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## Marcus

> That murder case is the craziest I have ever heard of. How can anyone dream up such a crazy way of killing someone. Why didn't they just shoot him?

 Это была провокация.

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## Hanna

Why should only Crocodile and Eric C get to "troll" and never me? Anyway, I was mostly joking. But it WAS a truly horrible murder though, and all the known evidence is pointing at Lugovoi. 
I don't think it has any connection with visas though.

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## Marcus

> and all the known evidence is pointing at Lugovoi.

 Чего? All the evidence is pointing at British special servises.  

> I don't think it has any connection with visas though.

 You are right.

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## Marcus

> Why should only Crocodile and Eric C get to "troll" and never me?

 I don't understand. Could you translate it into Russian or explain?

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## Eric C.

> I don't understand. Could you translate it into Russian or explain?

 Basically, she meant she wouldn't put up with me and Croc being the only chars who have permission to troll here.  ::

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## Eric C.

> Чего? All the evidence is pointing at British special servises.

 What evidence?

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## Hanna

Well you are right Marcus, some special service probably did it.... and if it was the UK, then that explains why all the signs point in some other direction. 
The UK screws up a lot of things, but as I understand it, the special forces are really, really good. 
I think the Russians have more of a motive though? Why would the UK want to get rid of Litvinenko according to you? What have Russian papers written about the case?

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## Marcus

> What have Russian papers written about the case?

 They laughed at British position. Probably Litvinenko knew something or did something against British interests.

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## Hanna

Well that just goes to show that it's very hard to trust anything you read in the papers! 
99% of everyone who read British papers (including me) basically take it as a fact that 'the Russians killed him'.
And then you say it's the opposite in Russia!  LOL!  
I guess we will never know... I can't remember the facts clearly, but at the time, it really seemed to me this Lugovoi person must be guilty and I thought it was pretty apalling even though I Litvinenko seemed a bit odd too.... 
There was another totally bizarre killing of a British spy recently. He was found dead inside of a body bag, in the bathtub, in his flat. Somehow media found out about it... after the story had been running for a few weeks, suddenly 'new' evidence was discovered, and it 'turned out' he was a pervert, participating in a sex game.... 
Who knows whether it was true, or a game. 
The guy was a top cryptologer, working for MI6.

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## Marcus

If Russians had wanted to kill him, they would have done it in another way. He could not be poisoned by polonium, because its halflife is 140 days.

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## zxc

> If Russians had wanted to kill him, they would have done it in another way. He could not be poisoned by polonium, because its halflife is 140 days.

 Which means its radioactive life is 280 days.  Given that he died in under 25 days after allegedly ingesting polonium, and that the alleged killer arrived from Russia to London only two days prior to the alleged poisoning, why exactly is it not possible for it to have killed him if it was in fact polonium?

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## Throbert McGee

> Which means its radioactive life is 280 days.  Given that he died in under 25 days after allegedly ingesting polonium, and that the alleged killer arrived from Russia to London only two days prior to the alleged poisoning, why exactly is it not possible for it to have killed him if it was in fact polonium?

 Actually, given a half-life of 140 days, after 280 days approximately 3/4 (75%) will have decayed, leaving 25% still active and emitting radiation. After 420 days (i.e., 3 half-lives), about 7/8 (87.5%) will have decayed, leaving 12.5% active. (Radioactive decay is exponential; after each half-life period, about *half of the remainder* decays.) 
Anyway, so if we assume that someone slipped some Po-210 into his food about 30 days before he died, then 30/140 means that approximately 1/5 (.2) of a half-life had expired. So using this formula: 
100% / 2^(.2) = percent of polonium left after 30 days = about 87% 
Meaning that about 13% of the Po-210 would have decayed in that time. Given a sufficiently large starting mass of the polonium, 13% translates to a sh*tload of alpha particles irradiating you from the inside out. 
So the real question to ask is, how much Po-210 *in grams* would they have had to dose Litvinenko with in order for him to die of acute radiation poisoning in just 30 days (rather than dying of leukemia 5 years later, for example)?  
And that's actually a question that no one knows the exact answer to -- basically because there are so few known human cases. (Besides Litvinenko's alleged poisoning, Marie Curie's daughter Irène died from accidentally inhaling polonium -- but from leukemia, a full 10 years after the laboratory accident.) 
So we can only make crude estimates based on tests done with rats, and then scale up to the body weight of a typical adult man. Also the quantity needed would depend in part on the chemical form of the polonium that was given -- for example, an oxide of polonium might be absorbed by the body differently than a polonium chloride salt. But the amount, for sure, would be a tiny fraction of a milligram; perhaps a few dozen micrograms.  
But again, that "10-50 micrograms" estimate is assuming that you're trying to cause *extremely acute radiation poisoning* that will kill someone within the course of several weeks -- you'd need much less than a microgram of Po-210 if you simply wanted to increase someone's odds of developing leukemia.

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## Throbert McGee

[accidental duplicate post deleted --Th.M.]

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## Throbert McGee

> If Russians had wanted to kill him, they would have done it in another way. He could not be poisoned by polonium, because its halflife is 140 days.

 Leaving aside the point that I made above about what "half-life" actually means, Marcus's statement is odd in another way: What on earth would the British gain by making up a lie that Po-210 was used to kill Litvinenko?  
Granted, most of the world's Po-210 is produced in Russia, so if Po-210 was indeed the poison, that tends to raise suspicion of Russian involvement. But (1) the use of Po-210 doesn't PROVE Russian involvement; and (2) Russia would've ALREADY been a logical suspect, because (duh) Litvinenko was a defected Russian agent, and had also made inflammatory claims that Russia was blowing up its own apartment buildings in order to frame the Chechens, etc. 
Thus, lying about Po-210 would seem to be unnecessary (because Russia would already be suspected no matter what), while at the same time being insufficient to conclusively blame Russia (because the Po-210 could have come from another source). So such a lie would accomplish nothing, in my opinion. 
Moreover, Litvinenko's symptoms were generally consistent with thallium poisoning -- in fact, this was the original diagnosis, and polonium wasn't confirmed until his autopsy.  
But if he had been indeed poisoned by thallium, making up a lie about Po-210 would create a totally unnecessary and expensive public health crisis for the UK -- because the sweat, urine, and feces of a polonium-poisoned individual are more hazardous to hospital workers and acquaintances than the bodily excretions of a thallium-poisoned person. Also, the general public is just scared as hell of radiation, even when there's not actually enough of it to harm them. (For example, the trace amounts of polonium-sweat that Litvinenko left on the seat of a London taxi would arguably pose very little danger to other people using the taxi, because your underwear and other clothes would block essentially all of the radiation!)  
So, in short, if you falsely tell the public that a thallium-poisoned person was actually killed by polonium, you have to spend a lot more money on decontamination efforts. And for what gain? If the point was to frame Lugovoi for something he didn't do, *planting a vial of thallium* in his hotel room would have done the job nicely, without creating a public radiation scare! 
Finally, making up a false story about polonium would require *a relatively large conspiracy* in which a lot of ordinary police and doctors and other investigators were paid off to lie about having detected polonium in Litvinenko's body, and in the blood of his wife and other associates like Mario Scaramella, and in various restaurants, taxis, and hotels that Litvinenko had visited, when they actually hadn't detected polonium anywhere or in anybody.  
And if you're MI6 and you're trying to kill a former Russian intelligent agent while framing Russia for the murder, you naturally want to involve _as few people as possible_ in your conspiracy! 
So, while different people can disagree about *who* poisoned Litvinenko with Po-210, it seems to me literally unbelievable that polonium wasn't the substance used to poison him.

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## Throbert McGee

[Aaargh. ANOTHER accidental duplicate deleted. I've been having some buggy Internet access in the past week, sorry... --Th.M]

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## Hanna

I must say I kind of agree with Throbert McGee but I don't know enough about chemistry or medicine to argue the case. I think that logic still points at Russians as the main suspects. 
I suppose the suspects in order would be:  
Russian spies
Some criminal corporation / interest that Litvinenko upset
British spies
the most bizarre suicide ever.... 
Not that I know a lot about Litvinenko but it's hard to imagine a good reason why the UK would like to kill him? After all, he was on "their" side...  
Depending on who actually did it, it's either a huge cock-up or rather successful... making it a very good warning for those who actually know the truth about what happened. What a horrible way to die! Nobody is going to upset that group/organisation again if they can help it!

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## Seraph

> ... making up a lie about Po-210 would create a totally unnecessary and expensive public health crisis for the UK -- because the sweat, urine, and feces of a polonium-poisoned individual are more hazardous to hospital workers and acquaintances than the bodily excretions of a thallium-poisoned person.

 not quite.  Difference between external emitters and internal emitters.  Externally, Po210 is very low risk.  Alpha particles can't even go through a piece of paper. Not even through skin.  Internally, very serious problem.  Commercial antistatic brush contains Po210.  Relatively safe.  Antistatic Brushes

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## Throbert McGee

> Externally, Po210 is very low risk.  Alpha particles can't even go through a piece of paper. Not even through skin.  Internally, very serious problem.

 You're right, seraph -- Po-210 has to be inhaled or ingested in order to be dangerous. So in the case of hospital workers caring for Litvinenko and changing his bedsheets, etc., the main danger to them would NOT be from getting a little bit of his radioactive sweat or urine on their skin.  
Rather, the risk would be that as the sweat/urine/feces _dry out_ on Litvinenko's clothing and bedsheets, particles of polonium dust could become airborne and then be *inhaled* by a hospital worker. Although the risk from a one-time inhalation might be negligible because the Po210 dose was so tiny, if the same worker were visiting Litvinenko's bedside several times a day over a period of two or three weeks, then the total amount of inhaled Po210 could, in theory, become high enough to put the worker at statistically greater risk of lung cancer or leukemia. (Which could translate into expensive legal liability for the hospital.) 
But as far as I know*, inhaling tiny amounts of airborne thallium dust from the dried bodily fluids of a thallium-poisoned patient wouldn't put hospital workers at significant risk. In other words, the "secondhand exposure" danger isn't as serious with thallium as it is with polonium.  
Hence, my argument (mainly to Marcus) that it would have been utterly irrational for British agents to poison Litvinenko with Tl but then make up a total lie for the public that he'd been poisoned with Po210.  * Based on a lot of Googling -- I'm not a medical expert!

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## Throbert McGee

Of course, if you believe that British agents killed Mr. L, you could argue that they chose to use Po210 on the assumptions that:   *A.* It would be mistaken for thallium poisoning (which it was, for a few weeks), while also... *B.* Killing with more certainty than thallium (there's a fairly effective treatment for Tl poisoning, quite a few victims have successfully recovered, and Litvinenko was said to be in robust physical health -- so there's a good chance that thallium would have failed to kill him) 
But if plan was indeed to kill him with polonium but make it look like thallium, then things backfired rather expensively when the Po210 was detected, which ultimately cost the UK government a few million pounds in decontamination efforts and laboratory tests for hundreds of people. (Fortunately, it appears that fewer than 20 people suffered a level of polonium exposure that MIGHT MAYBE POSSIBLY raise their risk of developing cancer during the next two decades.)

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## Seraph

> ...the risk would be that as the sweat/urine/feces _dry out_ on Litvinenko's clothing and bedsheets, particles of polonium dust could become airborne and then be *inhaled* by a hospital worker. Although the risk from a one-time inhalation might be negligible because the Po210 dose was so tiny, if the same worker were visiting Litvinenko's bedside several times a day over a period of two or three weeks, then the total amount of inhaled Po210 could, in theory, become high enough to put the worker at statistically greater risk of lung cancer or leukemia. (Which could translate into expensive legal liability for the hospital.)

 For another reason entirely, I was looking up radiological medicine issues for several weeks, and found out that the radioactive heavy metals do not eliminate as readily as things like radioactive iodine.  Iodine does eliminate as sweat, urine etc. Except for things like Tc99/Tc99m, the heavy metals do not behave so nicely, from the point of view of de-toxification.  The heavy metal elimination profile starts off at about 1% the first day (feces/urine), and then rapidly falls off to less than ~0.1% vicinity.  Large amounts are deposited on bone.  This is on longer time lines.  You can see from these kinds of things that the inhalation hazard is very low, to the point that you probably could not tell the difference from background.  The fact that you can legally buy antistatic brushes containing Po210 should be telling you something. 
Take a look at this radiation exposure chart.  If you look at the lower right area of the chart, you can tell that a worker probably would not get an amount from Litvinenko that could be even linked to an increased chance of getting cancer.  You have to do a little ball-park calculation, based on the low elimination rate, and dilution of dust, time in room,etc.  If you assume that the fatal dose was ~8 Sv (or even much larger), then you can see that the ~1% elimination as feces/urine first day would allow only a tiny fraction of 1% as a possible dose.  Estimate several hundred mL feces/urine, single digits volume mL drying would give thus 1% of 1% as a high estimate.   Then to dust, and more dilution before a worker could inhale it.  See where it is going?  We would now be down below the mSv level, but more likely much less than that.   A chest CT scan is list at 7 mSv.  . http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/03/19/radiation-chart/
.
Quote from IAEA "Po-210 can enter the body through eating and drinking of contaminated  food, breathing contaminated air or through a wound. The biological  half-time (the time for the level of Po-210 in the body to fall by half)  is approximately 50 days. If taken into the body, Po-210 is  subsequently excreted, mostly through faeces but some is excreted  through urine and other pathways. People who come into contact with a  person contaminated by Po-210 will not be at risk unless they ingest or  inhale bodily fluids of the contaminated person. " http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Fac...lonium210.html
When they say ingest of inhale, they mean amounts that get into several percent.  Not really very possible.  The 50 day bio-half life is including the decay in the body also at the 138 day radioactive half life.  The elimination rate slows down a lot after the first few days, resulting in incorporation in bones.  This behaviour is similar for Plutonium radium, etc. 
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## Throbert McGee

Seraph: Wouldn't the elimination rate depend on whether the radioactive substance was ingested in pure metallic form or as a salt? I would assume that finely powdered metallic Po would be passed very quickly in the feces, but a polonium salt might be significantly absorbed by the digestive system, with less going out in the feces and more going out in the urine and sweat. 
But anyway, if your main point is that the UK public health service spent a lot more money on "polonium clean-up" after the Litvinenko poisoning than was "logically necessary", then I would agree. But humans aren't Vulcans, and a lot of people in the general people have difficulty accepting that their risk from a low dose of polonium because they sat next to Litvenenko on the bus is going to "fade into the background" of the normal environmental polonium levels.

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## Throbert McGee

> You can see from these kinds of things that the inhalation hazard is very low, to the point that *you* probably could not tell the difference from background.

 Well, a lot depends on whether *I'm* an epidemiologist, or a tort lawyer!    ::

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## Seraph

> ...I would assume that finely powdered metallic Po ...

   You would not be able to administer this form, as it is an active metal.  Remember, it is only ~10 micrograms, not readily handle-able.  The handle-able form is a solution, for small amounts.  And as for tort lawyers, Po210 emits a characteristic gamma ray, and this would be the type of evidence that would have to be presented in court to prove actual exposure.  The amount of characteristic gamma ray emission would tell the amount of exposure, and a comparison then would be made to the background amounts in people.

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## zedeeyen

Personally, I don't think Lugovoi could be more obviously guilty even if he had "GUILTY" written across his forehead in flashing neon letters, but at most he's only guilty of being a delivery boy, and as for who he was working for - god knows. 
The British government's response to the incident and its actions since have been petulant, ridiculous and hysterical though. The visa regime for Russians visiting the UK is exactly the same as for nationals of many other countries, so when some minor government hack tries to link the continuation of tough rules to the Litvinenko case it's just pure bluster. The rules are as they are because the British establishment currently finds it expedient to dissuade all but the richest foreigners from coming here, and for no other reason. It doesn't even have anything to do with Russia, specifically, let alone one little detail of the UK's relationship with Russia.

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## chaika

Jeez, I was going to talk about my experience getting a Russian visa for my trip NEXT MONTH, but I see the thread had deteriorated into mush. Well, I'll say a few words anyway.  
As of July 1, Russian visas must be applied for online. The online website is very buggy, and it is slow so that you will spend an hour filling everything out. I had to dig up information on my employer of 20 years ago. Not fun. And then the site ate my wife's completely filled-out application forms, which I found out about when I got a call from the gotorussia tour company that is arranging things. I tried it too and couldn't log in. Next morning before beginning to re-enter everything I tried again just for kicks, and guess what -- her forms were there. I hope they stayed long enough for the embassy to issue the visas. I should know next week. Going to be in Moscow and Petersburg 9/7-9/19.

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## Windup Merchantski

Regarding visa proceedures: from what I've been told it's tit for tat. Don't whinge. Write to your MP  ::

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## fortheether

How was your trip?  I might be going to Russia/Ukraine in a few months - any visa tips will be great. 
Thank you, 
Scott    

> Jeez, I was going to talk about my experience getting a Russian visa for my trip NEXT MONTH, but I see the thread had deteriorated into mush. Well, I'll say a few words anyway.  
> As of July 1, Russian visas must be applied for online. The online website is very buggy, and it is slow so that you will spend an hour filling everything out. I had to dig up information on my employer of 20 years ago. Not fun. And then the site ate my wife's completely filled-out application forms, which I found out about when I got a call from the gotorussia tour company that is arranging things. I tried it too and couldn't log in. Next morning before beginning to re-enter everything I tried again just for kicks, and guess what -- her forms were there. I hope they stayed long enough for the embassy to issue the visas. I should know next week. Going to be in Moscow and Petersburg 9/7-9/19.

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