# Forum General General Discussion  Cultural Differences Between Americans and Russians

## Deborski

Someone wanted to see a post about cultural differences between these two "superpowers"... 
From my own experience, cultural differences should never be underestimated in their importance.  You can learn to speak a language, even fluently, but if you do not understand the culture that the language grew out of, you will never really be "fluent" in that language.   
I have lived in both countries and here are some of the cultural differences I have noticed (and some I have learned the "hard" way): 
Personal space.  Americans prefer a lot more personal space than Russians do.  In Russia, people are comfortable talking with maybe a foot of personal space between them, whereas Americans prefer closer to three feet.  Americans are very uncomfortable with "close talkers" so if they start to back away when you are talking, don't close in on them.   
Repeating "I'm sorry" or "thank you" or pretty much anything will make you look like you can't be trusted in Russian culture.  So, apologize once or say thank you once, and then let your actions show that you mean it.  Repeating the same words to emphasize them will hurt your credibility. 
Trust and openness.  Americans may seem very open at first, but in reality it can take a very long time to earn an American's trust.  Americans can even become close friends, and then disappear suddenly from your life.  This is hard for Russians to understand because they value their connections and friendships a great deal, perhaps more than Americans who are used to moving away from family and friends as a part of our lifestyle. 
Dating.  In Russia, men are expected to pay for all of a woman's expenses when they are on a date.  If you offer to "dutch treat" this can be very offensive, like saying that you don't think he can afford it.  Times are a-changing, so this may not be as big of a deal as it once was.  But "feminism" is still frowned on by a majority of people in Russia.  Russians prefer women to dress attractively and men are expected to open doors, carry your bags or luggage, and give up seats for women on public transportation.  They are not doing this to "control" you - they are doing it out of respect.  So just go with it and enjoy! 
In America, it's quite common for men and women to share the bill on a first date.  Also, dressing standards in America seem "poor" to many Russians who do not understand "Wal*Mart People". 
If you are in Russia, it is extremely unwise to call someone "comrade" or "commie" or even "russki" (even though that is the Russian word for Russian).   
That's all I can come up with on one cup of coffee.  Please feel free to add your own observations!!!  I know there is a LOT I have left out and it would help me to learn more as well.

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## fortheether

Thank you - I did observe the lack of smiling on my two visits to Brighton Beach.  Will add other observations after my trip.  Thank you about the say thank you once advise as I do say thank you a lot  ::   
Scott     

> Someone wanted to see a post about cultural differences between these two "superpowers"... 
> From my own experience, cultural differences should never be underestimated in their importance.  You can learn to speak a language, even fluently, but if you do not understand the culture that the language grew out of, you will never really be "fluent" in that language.   
> I have lived in both countries and here are some of the cultural differences I have noticed (and some I have learned the "hard" way): 
> Personal space.  Americans prefer a lot more personal space than Russians do.  In Russia, people are comfortable talking with maybe a foot of personal space between them, whereas Americans prefer closer to three feet.  Americans are very uncomfortable with "close talkers" so if they start to back away when you are talking, don't close in on them.   
> Repeating "I'm sorry" or "thank you" or pretty much anything will make you look like you can't be trusted in Russian culture.  So, apologize once or say thank you once, and then let your actions show that you mean it.  Repeating the same words to emphasize them will hurt your credibility. 
> Trust and openness.  Americans may seem very open at first, but in reality it can take a very long time to earn an American's trust.  Americans can even become close friends, and then disappear suddenly from your life.  This is hard for Russians to understand because they value their connections and friendships a great deal, perhaps more than Americans who are used to moving away from family and friends as a part of our lifestyle. 
> Dating.  In Russia, men are expected to pay for all of a woman's expenses when they are on a date.  If you offer to "dutch treat" this can be very offensive, like saying that you don't think he can afford it.  Times are a-changing, so this may not be as big of a deal as it once was.  But "feminism" is still frowned on by a majority of people in Russia.  Russians prefer women to dress attractively.   
> In America, it's quite common for men and women to share the bill on a first date.  Also, dressing standards in America seem "poor" to many Russians who do not understand "Wal*Mart People". 
> If you are in Russia, it is extremely unwise to call someone "comrade" or "commie" or even "russki" (even though that is the Russian word for Russian).   
> That's all I can come up with on one cup of coffee.  Please feel free to add your own observations!!!  I know there is a LOT I have left out and it would help me to learn more as well.

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## Deborski

I think the biggest piece of advice I would give to any American traveling to Russia - is *never* second-guess the Russians.  Never try to guess what they are going to say or do next, because if there is anything I've learned about Russians, they are unpredictable.  You can never guess how they are going to respond to anything, so just be yourself, try to be respectful, and open to learning from them.  But know that as soon as you think you "understand" the Russians, they will do something to confuse you again  :: )

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## Anixx

> Dating.  In Russia, men are expected to pay for all of a woman's expenses when they are on a date.  If you offer to "dutch treat" this can be very offensive, like saying that you don't think he can afford it.

 No! It is very much desired by any man, but Russian women are very greedy. If a woman refuses that you pay for her, it may indicate that she does not like you or may be even fears you and thinks about how to depart. But if she somehow indicates that she likes you, but wants to pay, it is VERY appreciated. Why? Because there are many "dynamo" women in Russia who knows how to make men to spend money on them and disappear. That's why many modern men are afraid of spending money on women the same way as it was practiced before, when women were more honest. If you as a girl spend money yourself, it will make your partner less restricted.   

> If you are in Russia, it is extremely unwise to call someone "comrade" or "commie" or even "russki" (even though that is the Russian word for Russian).

 Calling someone "comrade" is very much OK.

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## Deborski

> No! It is very much desired by any man, but Russian women are very greedy. If a woman refuses that you pay for her, it may indicate that she does not like you or may be even fears you and thinks about how to depart. But if she somehow indicates that she likes you, but wants to pay, it is VERY appreciated. Why? Because there are many "dynamo" women in Russia who knows how to make men to spend money on them and disappear. That's why many modern men are afraid of spending money on women the same way as it was practiced before, when women were more honest. If you as a girl spend money yourself, it will make your partner less restricted.  
> Calling someone "comrade" is very much OK.

 See what I mean about "second guessing" the Russians?    ::

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## Paul G.

I think you mean different meanings of the word 'comrade'. It's ok to call a friend 'my old comrade', for example. Or sometimes 'comrade' means just 'a person' (but with little satiric connotation). But when you mean an address to someone, like 'sir' or 'mister', it's not a good idea.
I hope it was helpful for your collection of Russian bizarre stuff, Deborah.

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## Боб Уайтман

Some general comparison of the two cultures. 
Americans value individualism a lot. A typical American would prefer relying on his/her own force to solve his/her problems. They do not like unasked advice. For example, if it is cold outside and you are not dressed appropriately, others are not expected to comment it. Even if you are walking with a child who is unsufficiently dressed. Americans respect the freedom of choice. Americans do not like to be bothered with other people's problems as well. This is a generalization, of course. 
The Russian culture is different. Traditionally Russians are collectivists. This is because of our history. The only way to survive in difficult life conditions (e.g. poor harvest, unsufficient food, hard physical job, poverty, external threats etc.) was to rely on each other's help. The peasants' community was a natural base of the rural old Russian society.
The times have changed greatly. But we clearly see the "traces" of our history. Unlike in the US, Russians often refer to some help from their relatives or friends when being faced to some life difficulties. They can just ask for some advice, or for some physical assistance, or for money which are normally lended for free. Many problems are easily solved by means of "social connections": if you know a right person, you can easily find a way around. Or if your friend knows a right person, that may help as well. Many Russians appreciate unasked advice: being advised by a friend means your friend really cares about your life, and thus he/she is a good friend. 
E.g. if it is cold outside and you are not dressed appropriately, at least your acquaintances or friends would inevitably comment it: "you are in risk of getting cold! you'd better put on something warmer!". It is especially inevitable if they see your child unsufficiently dressed. This is not because they do not respect your choice. This is because they feel their personal responsibility for your health (especially for your child!) And you may consider them "heartless" if they pretend not noticing it. 
That is normal that relatives and friends are involved into your problems. "Your problems are my problems, and mine are yours" is still a common way of thinking. 
In the US culture money is something very personal and it is a taboo to discuss your incomes with others.
In the Russian culture, that is not a big deal to discuss money. If you think you are under-paid at you job, that is nothing to be ashamed of if telling it to your friends: low salary is not considered as your own fault, that is your boss who is unfair and underestimates your skills. 
In Russia, children are expected to help their parents after their parents retire (including financial help since social pension is usually low).
In their turn, elderly parents are expected to help their children to look after their grandchildren. 
There are some very popular Russian sayings and proverbs which illustrate what is written above:  *Один в поле не воин.* - _One is not a warrior in a battlefield._ (Meaning that a single person is not a force to do something great). *Один за всех и все за одного.* - _One for all and all for one._ (One is responsible for everybody, and everybody is responsible for the one). *Не имей сто рублей, а имей сто друзей.* - _Do not have 100 roubles, but have 100 friends._ (The basic meaning is friends are more important than money). *Я - последняя буква алфавита.* - _"Я" is the last letter of the alphabet._ This saying was very popular during my school education in Soviet times. It is a sort of a play of words: "я" is the last (33rd) letter of the Russian alphabet, and "я" (yah) is also a separate word meaning "I". The meaning of this saying is: don't put your own "I" to high! Do not consider your personal interests as more important than the interests of the society you belong to. 
Compare: in English, the pronoun "I" is always capitalized: "You know what I want", and "you" is not.
In Russian it is the other way around: "я" is never capitalized unless it starts a new sentence: "Ты знаешь, что я хочу". But "Вы" can be capitalized to show respect (when used as a formal address to a single person): "Что Вы желаете?" (What would you like?) 
This is a generalization, again. But it shows that we often see the same things differently.

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## LXNDR

> Calling someone "comrade" is very much OK.

 if in addressing i'd perceive it as mocking, but if it's somehow genuine it sounds very unnatural, i recall a scene from "Moscow on the Hudson" where all dialogues in Russian happening in the US sound super ridiculous and corny 
the thing that irks me about Russian is that we don't use humane terms for address such as Sir, Mister, Miss, Missis, Ma'am, so another thing to remember for foreigners is how to address people when you're trying to draw their attention, according to gender and age
a young lady - девушка!
a women over thirty y.o. - женщина!
a young man - молодой человек! мужчина!
a man over thirty y.o. - мужчина! 
if even being over 30 or older a person looks younger people may use address for a young person, or just because they don't give much thought about that person's age 
the same terms are used when speaking about a (wo)man in 3d person in their presence 
these all are neutral addresses, there're of course more informal slang terms equivalent to buddy, mate, dude etc. 
in trying to be cold when addressing someone уважаемый/ая! can be used, it's not offensive though 
i strive to use господин/госпожа (sir/miss, missis) where possible, but so far have never tried to use it in direct address, but i neither will use the abovelisted ones, cause they sound dorky to me

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## Боб Уайтман

And
гражданин! (citizen, to a man)
гражданка! (citizen, to a woman)
are used mainly by the police.

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## LXNDR

> And
> гражданин! (citizen, to a man)
> гражданка! (citizen, to a woman)
> are used mainly by the police.

 i agree with Bob only would add that a person may feel offended if you address him/her that way just because its customary for the laws, since just like in the USA in Russia and former USSR in general lots of people aren't very fond of law enforcement bodies

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## Deborski

> I hope it was helpful for your collection of Russian bizarre stuff, Deborah.

 Sometimes, to my American mind, some things do seem a bit bizarre at first.  But when I had lived in Russia for a while, they seemed quite ordinary, and in fact when I returned to the States, there were many American customs which struck me as bizarre, even though at one time in my life I experienced them as "ordinary." 
Living in another culture, breathing it in and continually trying to wrap your mind around different values and ways of thinking has a permanent impact on a person.  I was never the same American after living in Russia for two years.  My perspective of the world was altered forever.  And that is really not a bad thing!

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## Doomer

Мои 5 копеек
Russians don't know how to relax/spend weekends, mostly because there are not a lot of places to go out in Russia and most of them are expensive. At the same time Americans(I'm going to say generally not to start racial discrimination) tend to work more, compared to Russians, but I can't say that Russians are lazy 
Russians much more bond to their parents and other relatives then typical Americans
Russians are less mobile then Americans mostly because of transportation problem but it affects personality

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## Deborski

I think there is far too much emphasis on WORK and PRODUCTION in America, and not nearly enough emphasis on family.  Just my two cents.  But from what I hear, it is becoming more like that in Russia, too.

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## LXNDR

i'm gonna add what i heard from an American, which is i think one of the profound differences in mentality between the Westerners and Russians 
Americans, in particular, are generally apt to change or improve things they don't like, Russian's are apt to get accustomed to and live with them 
i can't attest to the accuracy of this observation regarding Americans, although i feel the same way, but regarding Russians it's true

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## Deborski

> i'm gonna add what i heard from an American, which is i think one of the profound differences in mentality between the Westerners and Russians 
> Americans, in particular, are generally apt to change or improve things they don't like, Russian's are apt to get accustomed to and live with them 
> i can't attest to the accuracy of this observation regarding Americans, although i feel the same way, but regarding Russians it's true

 I think it is a fair observation.  Could it have something to do with the way Russians and Americans think about "fate"?   
Americans think "no fate but what we make" and Russians think "you can't fight fate"... and who is really right, or are we both right in the end?

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## Anixx

> I think there is far too much emphasis on WORK and PRODUCTION in America, and not nearly enough emphasis on family.  Just my two cents.  But from what I hear, it is becoming more like that in Russia, too.

 This is wrong. From my perspective there is much more emphasis on family in the West, especially in America.

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## LXNDR

> I think it is a fair observation.  Could it have something to do with the way Russians and Americans think about "fate"?   
> Americans think "no fate but what we make" and Russians think "you can't fight fate"... and who is really right, or are we both right in the end?

 probably, that also has something to do with traditionally little appreciation and reward for personal initiative in the Soviet society, unless it's approved by authority, which in turn discourages people to take initiative and so they become pretty passive 
there's even a saying - инициатива наказуема  
in the end everybody's equal, but the itinerary to the destination can vary

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## Deborski

> probably, that also has something to do with traditionally little appreciation and reward for personal initiative in the Soviet society, unless it's approved by authority, which in turn discourages people to take initiative and so they become pretty passive 
> there's even a saying - инициатива наказуема  
> in the end everybody's equal, but the itinerary to the destination can vary

 Like "Everybody is equal, but some are more equal than others"...?  Maybe George Orwell had it right.

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## Deborski

> This is wrong. From my perspective there is much more emphasis on family in the West, especially in America.

 Interesting.  What makes you think this?

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## LXNDR

the politicians especially the Republicans, who claim to be Christians, constantly in their election campaigns stress family values
and a presidential candidate absolutely has to be an exemplary family man 
but me, i don't see it the way Anixx does, it's more of a propaganda than reflection of the real state of affairs  
at the same time if Americans had to vote in a woman to the office, i feel they'd vote for a single mother without hesitation, so there go family values
but they probably wouldn't vote for a childless woman either married or not 
what do you think, Deb?

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## LXNDR

Ukraine 
there's a drop-down list of countries

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## Eric C.

> Personal space. Americans prefer a lot more personal space than Russians do. In Russia, people are comfortable talking with maybe a foot of personal space between them, whereas Americans prefer closer to three feet. Americans are very uncomfortable with "close talkers" so if they start to back away when you are talking, don't close in on them.

 Oh yeah, you're so right about that! I've happened to be confused by a number of Russians trying to get really close to me while talking. The most interesting thing is, no matter if you're stepping back, they won't really get it and won't give up their attempts to have your face a few inches in front of theirs. =)

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## Deborski

> the politicians especially the Republicans, who claim to be Christians, constantly in their election campaigns stress family values
> and a presidential candidate absolutely has to be an exemplary family man 
> but me, i don't see it the way Anixx does, it's more of a propaganda than reflection of the real state of affairs  
> at the same time if Americans had to vote in a woman to the office, i feel they'd vote for a single mother without hesitation, so there go family values
> but they probably wouldn't vote for a childless woman either married or not 
> what do you think, Deb?

 I think you understand American politics very well.  Yes, the right-wing propaganda is all about "family values" - but it's a facade.  Many of the leading right-wing champions of "family values" have cheated on their wives, divorced multiple times, or been involved in bizarre sexual scandals - like fondling men in airport restroom stalls!  They are a hypocritical bunch, indeed! 
In reality, those of us who work are expected to sacrifice EVERYTHING for our jobs.  There is no excuse here for not working.   
Yes, we might elect a woman as a President... but throughout our history, women's rights have been last, after the rights of other minorities.  We elected a Black President, so now we may finally be able to elect a female one.  Hillary Clinton will likely run for President in 2016.

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## gRomoZeka

> Oh yeah, you're so right about that! I've happened to be confused by a number of Russians trying to get really close to me while talking. The most interesting thing is, no matter if you're stepping back, they won't really get it and won't give up their attempts to have your face a few inches in front of theirs. =)

 Ahaha. I tried to imaging such a situation, and I realized, that it's very much true. "Hey, where are you going? We are talking right now". ))) 
Regarding conversation style: I've read once that Russians have problems with long pauses while talking to strangers, especially comparing to Northern nations (Scandinavians, etc.). When there's suddenly a lull in a conversation most Russians are afraid that it's "dying" and do their best to "restart" it, they redouble their efforts in engaging their interlocutor, trying new topics, etc. That's a classical culture misunderstanding. While Russians think that they are being good company people from other countries often see them as overly talkative, inattentive or even intimidating. The funny thing is that Russians do not necessarily_ like_ to talk that much, they just feel that they are supposed to make an effort for the sake of a person they are talking to.

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## Deborski

> Regarding conversation style: I've read once that Russians have problems with long pauses while talking to strangers, especially comparing to Northern nations (Scandinavians, etc.). When there's suddenly a lull in a conversation most Russians are afraid that it's "dying" and do their best to "restart" it, they redouble their efforts in engaging their interlocutor, trying new topics, etc.

 
Hehehe, I'm American and I have a habit of doing that!  If people stop talking, it feels like the conversation is broken and I have to "fix" it!  Maybe it's my Norwegian blood or something. 
I've also noticed that Russians have a tendency to analyze everything constantly.  I do the same thing, and many of my American friends find it annoying or intimidating.

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## Gnome

You gave very generalized statements about two countries that are very, very large.  I don't know how I feel about this topic in general.

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## Deborski

> You gave very generalized statements about two countries that are very, very large.  I don't know how I feel about this topic in general.

 Generally speaking, I dislike generalities.  But when discussing topics like "culture" - which are very broad topics - it's hard to avoid.  There will always be people who are exceptions to the rules, and certainly attitudes and cultural minutia vary from one part of a large country to another.  No offense is intended with this post.

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## Anixx

> Interesting.  What makes you think this?

 The right-wing ideology dominant to America empathizes family. This is even said in Wikipedia. This is because family seen as an instrument of inheritance for rich people. As an example it is often cited that American presidents usually have portraits of their wives and family on their workplace. The wive of the president is usually goes with him, while in the USSR only Georbachev borrowed this practice from the Americans because he admired them and this was widely publicized. 
In America sometimes dynasties are involved not only in industrial management but also in politics such as the Bushs and the Clintons which is not the case of Russia. 
Although currently the state attempts to impose similar values in Russia, it is still not universally accepted.  
Another example is the absence of orphanages in the US where all parentless children get adopted. In Russia there are lots of orphanages.

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## Deborski

> The right-wing ideology dominant to America empathizes family. This is even said in Wikipedia. This is because family seen as an instrument of inheritance for rich people. As an example it is often cited that American presidents usually have portraits of their wives and family on their workplace. The wive of the president is usually goes with him, while in the USSR only Georbachev borrowed this practice from the Americans because he admired them and this was widely publicized. 
> In America sometimes dynasties are involved not only in industrial management but also in politics such as the Bushs and the Clintons which is not the case of Russia. 
> Although currently the state attempts to impose similar values in Russia, it is still not universally accepted.  
> Another example is the absence of orphanages in the US where all parentless children get adopted. In Russia there are lots of orphanages.

 Well, as someone (not rich) who has lived in America most of my life, I would like to point out that not everything you read in Wikipedia is true.  This is only an "ideal" - vaunted by America's right-wing conservative christian community.  
In reality, many of us are separated from our families.  When we graduate high school, many of go away to colleges in different states, far from where we grew up.  Once we graduate, if we are lucky enough to find jobs, we may find ourselves living on the other side of the country.  We are expected to work long hours, with little time left over for family. 
Orphanages - foster homes - believe me, there are plenty. 
I cannot fully compare to Russia, because I only lived in Russia a short time in comparison, but from my perspective it seemed that Russians, often living in multigenerational homes, are much more family oriented (in reality) than Americans are.

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## diogen_

> In reality, those of us who work are expected to sacrifice EVERYTHING for our jobs.  There is no excuse here for not working.

 Sounds a tad irrational. Why are you so committed to your jobs? For what purpose? 
Btw, I watched a movie (Greenberg, 2010) a few weeks ago where a certain carpenter was quite comfortable in his own skin and enjoyed life practically doing nothing. Is it still an outrageous challenge to your social norms  or  a sign of a new trend?

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## Deborski

> Sounds a tad irrational. Why are you so committed to your jobs? For what purpose? 
> Btw, I watched a movie (Greenberg, 2010) a few weeks ago where a certain carpenter was quite comfortable in his own skin and enjoyed life practically doing nothing. Is it still an outrageous challenge to your social norms  or  a sign of a new trend?

 Just a tad?  I think it's completely irrational, and that we're headed for a crash.  
A lot of us are tired of the corporate-run oppression, but a lot more seem to just think "that is how it is" and their thinking is constantly reinforced by politicians backed by vast sums of cash from corporations. 
The rugged individualist American of the past does not fit into the corporocracy.  Individuality is not encouraged in corporate systems by and large, although some of the new companies are researching different ways of dealing with employees, but many corporations insist "there is no "I" in TEAM."  Sound familiar to you?

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## fortheether

Do you mind putting these types of statements in the "Politics" section of this forum so I can continue to ignore them? 
Thank you, 
Scott     

> I think you understand American politics very well.  Yes, the right-wing propaganda is all about "family values" - but it's a facade.  Many of the leading right-wing champions of "family values" have cheated on their wives, divorced multiple times, or been involved in bizarre sexual scandals - like fondling men in airport restroom stalls!  They are a hypocritical bunch, indeed! 
> In reality, those of us who work are expected to sacrifice EVERYTHING for our jobs.  There is no excuse here for not working.   
> Yes, we might elect a woman as a President... but throughout our history, women's rights have been last, after the rights of other minorities.  We elected a Black President, so now we may finally be able to elect a female one.  Hillary Clinton will likely run for President in 2016.

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## Deborski

> Do you mind putting these types of statements in the "Politics" section of this forum so I can continue to ignore them? 
> Thank you, 
> Scott

 Scott, I agree, politics is derailing the thread.  Can everyone please keep this to cultural differences without too much political discussion?

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## Doomer

> I cannot fully compare to Russia, because I only lived in Russia a short time in comparison, but from my perspective it seemed that Russians, often living in multigenerational homes, are much more family oriented (in reality) than Americans are.

 Agree
I have been living in Russia almost my whole life and almost 6 years in North America (5 in the US) and I will stand on what I said before - Russians are more bound to their parents and relatives

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## Doomer

Americans are more patriotic which is a good thing, I think
But sometimes "too patriotic" when patriotism is used as a cover up for something else

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## capecoddah

I manage a motel in a resort area at night (3-11)
I've had from 2 to 6 Russians (and Eastern Europeans, Belarus, Ukraine) work for/with me for the last ten years.
J-1 visa kids; college age. A different set of circumstances to observe. They are "Fish out of water". 
These aren't great jobs. Maids and Bellmen. Most have another job, usually at a restaurant.
They are mostly homesick for the first couple of weeks until they get settled in. They e-mail daily at first then feel bad when it tapers down to twice a week. At the end of the summer, they don't want to go home.  
My observations comparing them to US college-age kids:
Russian kids have better study/work habits than American kids. It shows in a number of ways. 
They are"smarter" because they were serious about school. Math. They speak English fluently and usually can "Pidgin" another 1-3. Americans can barely speak to Quebecois after 6 years of French or Maids after 6 years of Spanish. Guilty as charged. It's been 30 years since I studied French, I learned Spanish working in South Florida factories and never had a formal Russian lesson in my life. I get by though.
They show up, on bikes, after working a breakfast/lunch shift. Americans might show up, late, in a car their parents gave them. 
If Russians call in sick, they are sick (OK, sometimes a crippling hangover). Americans call in sick and show up the next day with a sunburn. 
Russian Горничные are better than Brazilian and Jamaican Maids. American kids are too lazy and entitled to work as maids.
 Russian Коридорные are on par with Jamaican and American Bellboys. Very polite and don't put their hand out for a tip.
Russian kids aren't as materialistic as American kids. Granted, they show up with 1 old suitcase and leave with 2 new ones filled with stuff, they seem to be able to get by with less.
Russian kids seem more appreciative. I get lots of free stuff. Free Boat rides, whale watching, baseball tickets, meals, etc. I don't give them to the American kids anymore.  
Observations I've heard from Russian kids:
Americans are fat, lazy and stupid. Americans are fit, work hard and smart.
You work too hard. You are always playing at work.
Americans are not happy. I heard about the "American Smile", but you are really happy!
You are too serious. You don't take life seriously.
 American food is better, it is fresh. American food is bad, it comes from cans.
American beer sucks. Americans hide the good beer.
I hate this place. I love this place. 
Some contradictions. Wide-eyed kids seeing a new part of the world. Most have never seen the ocean and a beach or have stayed in a hotel. Some are fairly worldly. "My Kids". I keep in touch with them for a couple years until they get real jobs, married and children.  
I learn, they learn.
2 girls are due June 16.  ::

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## Doomer

> I manage a motel in a resort area at night (3-11)
> I've had from 2 to 6 Russians (and Eastern Europeans, Belarus, Ukraine) work for/with me for the last ten years.
> J-1 visa kids; college age.

 I hope IRS and DHS are not watching  ::

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## Doomer

> They are"smarter" because they were serious about school. Math.

 Two things
1. If you see a Russian student in the US on J-1 then most likely that student stands out from the crowd. He/she either really smart and got scholarship to go to the US or his/her parents are rich (I doubt that you gonna see the second kind at the motel) 
2. Russian school system is yet stays analytic (thank God) comparing to the US school system. That means there are not a lot of tests where you supposed to pick the right answer from a few. There are tests which have no pre-defined answer, you need to use you brain to analyze and find/calculate the correct answer yourself using your knowledge. It is harder on teachers but it benefits the kids a lot. It develops creativity and analytic thinking. However Russian school system lacks home projects (like building the Solar system model from bunch of scrap) which you can find in the US 
Very interesting reading about the topic http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/ma...pagewanted=all

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## capecoddah

> Two things
> 1. If you see a Russian student in the US on J-1 then most likely that student stands out from the crowd. He/she either really smart and got scholarship to go to the US or his/her parents are rich (I doubt that you gonna see the second kind at the motel)

 You're confusing an F-1 Student Visa (F-1 Student Visa: Education in the USA - )    (Student Visas ) with a J-1 Exchange Visitor ( J-1 Visa Basics | J-1 Visa). 
2 different things.  
F-1 is a visa to be a student in the USA.Work part-time.
J-1 is a visa granted to students to work and see the USA. Work full time for 3 months and travel 1. 
F-1 kids are rare away from a university.
J-1 kids are pretty common. Not from "rich" families, they are usually in debt to their family though. Two jobs to pay back loans and buy stuff for their friends and family. 
F-1 kids think chess is exciting and have poor social skills.
J-1 kids will beat me in chess but are a whole lot of fun.  
F-1 kids go home as pale as when they arrived
J-1 kids go home with a nice tan and great stories. 
I met some F-1 Russians in my school life and 3 trying to work for a summer. I remember  the 2 guys as highly intelligent incompetents. The girl had "Total Recall" or Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory (HSAM). She could remember what a person ate, time date, credit card number, etc. She learned Brazilian-Portuguese in 2 months.  She was fairly "normal". She remembers me with "What the fuck".  ::  
My "Kids".

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## Deborski

I remember a time when Americans had more of a work ethic than we do now... when we weren't afraid to take low-wage, or manual labor jobs.  When I was a teenager, I mucked out manure at a stable.  I cleaned 20 stalls a day to pay for horseback riding lessons.  Later, I worked for a large greenhouse.  I was the only American there, the rest of the workers were Mexican summer workers.  Even then, not many American kids were willing to put their back into anything, and that was in the 1980's!  As I got older, I worked lots of jobs, payed my own way through college (back when a part time job was enough to pay for college) and became more and more amazed at how few Americans my own age were willing to go the extra mile. 
I think a lot of people are in for a rude awakening.

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## Doomer

> You're confusing an F-1 Student Visa (F-1 Student Visa: Education in the USA - )    (Student Visas ) with a J-1 Exchange Visitor ( J-1 Visa Basics | J-1 Visa). 
> 2 different things.  
> F-1 is a visa to be a student in the USA.Work part-time.
> J-1 is a visa granted to students to work and see the USA. Work full time for 3 months and travel 1.

 Yes, you are correct about visa types but I still think that "granted" is the key word here  ::

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## capecoddah

> Yes, you are correct about visa types but I still think that "granted" is the key word here

 "earned"... 
Kids have to jump through a few hoops to get a J-1. 
American Bureaucracy and Russian Bureaucracy together is a winning combination.   ::

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## Doomer

> "earned"...

 I guess the joke didn't work  ::   

> J-1 is a visa *granted* to students to work and see the USA. Work full time for 3 months and travel 1.

  

> Kids have to jump through a few hoops to get a J-1. 
>  American Bureaucracy and Russian Bureaucracy together is a winning combination.

 That was precisely my point
Not every kid can get a J-1, so the Russian kids you see are probably above average. Don't underestimate American kids and don't overestimate Russian kids, in general  ::

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## LXNDR

Ukraine: recent attacks on foreigners

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## capecoddah

> I guess the joke didn't work    
> That was precisely my point
> Not every kid can get a J-1, so the Russian kids you see are probably above average. Don't underestimate American kids and don't overestimate Russian kids, in general

 I know I get "The Cream of the Crop" Russian kids. I have a couple schools that "feed" me good candidates.
It's not as bad as it sounds. I want good employees. It's a process. A friend's daughter is being groomed for future employment.  It's her ticket to the USA 
American college students go to University because they are too stupid to flip burgers.
The "Top of the Class" Hospitality Major can't find Kansas or Antarctica on a map. Thinks Africa is a country. "How do I call 911?"   Can't add, subtract, multiply or divide without a calculator and is attached to a phone 24/7. 
Sorry about the rant, but welcome to my life. 
In general. :: 
My boss has also hired a Lifeguard that couldn't swim.

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## Doomer

> I know I get "The Cream of the Crop" Russian kids. I have a couple schools that "feed" me good candidates.
> It's not as bad as it sounds. I want good employees. It's a process. A friend's daughter is being groomed for future employment.  It's her ticket to the USA

 I feel you  ::   

> American college students go to University because they are too stupid to flip burgers.
> The "Top of the Class" Hospitality Major can't find Kansas or Antarctica on a map. Thinks Africa is a country. "How do I call 911?"   Can't add, subtract, multiply or divide without a calculator and is attached to a phone 24/7.

 Actually that reminds me of another cultural difference
Russian parents (as well as other Eastern European and Oriental parents) feel more responsibility for their kids. That's good and bad at the same time. The good things that parents try to give their kids best they can, especially when we talking about education. They help their kids with homework to get them to UNDERSTAND the quizzes. This also almost mandatory for Russians who live in the US because American junior and middle schools are joke. The bad thing about it that parents try to control kids too much which might to luck of self esteem and creativity. This also more tend in Oriental families, "Tiger moms" thingy  ::

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## Throbert McGee

Another one for Deborski's list: Russians -- or at least Russian men greeting other men -- will insist on shaking hands EVERY TIME they see each other. Americans, generally, shake hands as a greeting only on first making acquaintance (or if they haven't seen each other in quite a long time -- but not every single time they say "Hi" to friends). 
So my friends Sasha and Dima would want to shake my hand, and I'd be thinking, "What, *again*? I just shook your damn hand yesterday, dude! I haven't forgotten who you are in the past 24 hours!!" 
On the other hand, it makes no difference to most Americans if you shake hands _across the threshold of a door_ -- but this is a big no-no in Russia! 
In fact, you never do ANYTHING *через порог* -- "across the threshold" -- whether it's shaking hands, saying goodbye, giving/receiving a gift, etc. And a Russian-American immigrant that I know is a big fan of Halloween in general, but she says it still makes her uncomfortable when she sees her non-Russian husband (or other Americans) giving the trick-or-treaters their candy "across the threshold".

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## Throbert McGee

PS. Speaking of crossing thresholds, if you forget to remove your shoes and put on the "guest тапочки" within 1.5 nanometers of the door, you are a horribly rude person who was obviously raised by wolves.

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## Doomer

> Another one for Deborski's list: Russians -- or at least Russian men greeting other men -- will insist on shaking hands EVERY TIME they see each other. Americans, generally, shake hands as a greeting only on first making acquaintance (or if they haven't seen each other in quite a long time -- but not every single time they say "Hi" to friends).

 Yes, Russian men shake hands as a greeting also it would be weird to shake women's hands (hello to feminists  ::  ). Americans say "good morning" every day. I so got used to it that haven't even remembered this difference but it's true. Russians on the other hand have couple jokes about mornings: "Morning cannot be good" and "If you have a good morning that means yesterday's night wasn't that good"  ::   

> So my friends Sasha and Dima would want to shake my hand, and I'd be thinking, "What, *again*? I just shook your damn hand yesterday, dude! I haven't forgotten who you are in the past 24 hours!!"

 Right and why do you people insist that morning is good *every* day than I can clearly see that it isn't  ::   

> On the other hand, it makes no difference to most Americans if you shake hands _across the threshold of a door_ -- but this is a big no-no in Russia!
> In fact, you never do ANYTHING *через порог* -- "across the threshold" -- whether it's shaking hands, saying goodbye, giving/receiving a gift, etc. And a Russian-American immigrant that I know is a big fan of Halloween in general, but she says it still makes her uncomfortable when she sees her non-Russian husband (or other Americans) giving the trick-or-treaters their candy "across the threshold".

 I wouldn't generalize it, because it's a superstition. I, for example, don't have this problem  ::  However it is widely spread among Russian people (women especially)

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## Doomer

> PS. Speaking of crossing thresholds, if you forget to remove your shoes and put on the "guest тапочки" within 1.5 nanometers of the door, you are a horribly rude person who was obviously raised by wolves.

 Also true  :: 
Comes from a problem that most of the people in Russia travel by public transportation and the roads are also quite dirty
Considering that many houses in the US have carpet flooring I would listen to Russians  ::

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## LXNDR

In the face of many men failing to meet hygiene standards after visiting lavatory i find shaking hands uncomfortable and try to avoid it at all costs 
(i'm local)

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## gRomoZeka

> Another one for Deborski's list: Russians -- or at least Russian men greeting other men -- will insist on shaking hands EVERY TIME they see each other.

 Additionaly people often shake hands before leaving. It can be quite funny if a meeting lasts just for a few minutes - shaking hands among a group of friends can take more time than actual talking.  ::

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## xdns

As a rule, you (male) shake hands of your male peers once a day, when you first see them.
Shaking hands upon leaving is optional, and it is done when you expect not to see the person till tomorrow.
Shaking hands with females feels awkward to Russians. You just greet them verbally. 
Females usually greet each other only verbally too.
Among younger friends it may be accepted for girls to kiss each other on a cheek, and sometimes guys routinely kiss every girl on a cheek too.
But don't do this unless you are sure that such behaviour is expected.

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## Deborski

I'm pretty sure I broke every one of the rules you guys just mentioned... except for taking off my shoes!  That one, I happen to agree with!

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## kidkboom

> American college students go to University because they are too stupid to flip burgers.
> The "Top of the Class" Hospitality Major can't find Kansas or Antarctica on a map. Thinks Africa is a country. "How do I call 911?" Can't add, subtract, multiply or divide without a calculator and is attached to a phone 24/7.

 Очень жаль.  With that attitude, all you're going to achieve is helping to keep your countrymen as debased as your predispositions misrepresent them to be.  Maybe something in your vocation requires you to view American college students that way, but it doesn't lessen the shame your opinion contributes to.

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## Lampada

> Очень жаль.  With that attitude, all you're going to achieve is helping to keep your countrymen as debased as your predispositions misrepresent them to be.  Maybe something in your vocation requires you to view American college students that way, but it doesn't lessen the shame your opinion contributes to.

 Sorry to say, but I think you are being judgemental yourself here.

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## Deborski

There are stupid kids, and there are smart kids, in all countries.  Unfortunately, the education system in the US appears to be churning out more of the former, than the latter, these days.

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## zxc

Regarding the space thing, absolutely true.  While everyone has their 'bubble', Americans tend to have much larger ones.  If you can't get used to people being in your space, then God help you if you ever ride on a Russian metro or bus.  :: 
Both are usually fairly packed.  One thing I recall from riding on the автобусы was the procedure for getting on and then getting off.  Getting on was basically everyone cramming onto the overfull bus, and as soon as I everyone was on the bus driver would leave.  People might pay as they're boarding, but usually many people, especially in the back, don't get to pay their fare until after the bus is already moving.  In America you usually have to have exact change to ride the bus, and the bus doesn't leave until everyone has paid; my experience over there was people will pass money up to the driver, who will then make change and pass it back.  It seemed like a very honesty-based system--people never seemed to try and "cheat" and not pay at all, and all of your change would make it back to you despite passing through the hands of half a dozen strangers.  The drivers making change was a little bit disconcerting to me at first, but I never saw an accident.  Don't be surprised if you go and your bus driver looks like this:   
For getting off the process seemed to consist of tapping the person in front of you (usually after the bus leaves the stop before yours and is still in motion) and asking them вы выходите?  If the answer was no, you would begin this 'dance' of trading places (keep in mind the bus is usually extremely packed). You would continue to do this until the person ahead of you is responds that they are getting off, and then you are to assume that they have done the same thing you just did and that everyone in front of them is getting off as well.   
This might seem like normal every day activity for a native, but keep in mind that most Americans have their own cars and transport themselves (except for in the very big cities).   
I don't know if this holds true for everywhere, but I noticed over the course of the month I spent over there (these observations are for Kiev, Ukraine by the way, although as the 'mother of all Russian cities' I imagine most of it holds true for many parts of Russia) that many people would re-wear the same clothes a lot.  In America it's usually considered bad hygiene to not shower at least once a day and to wear the same pair of clothes twice without washing them (though you can get away with re-wearing a pair of джинсы).   
Also, I don't know if this was just the family I was living with, but most Americans have access to a washer and dryer.  The family I lived with in Kiev had a very small washing machine in the bathroom and then...I don't know exactly what to call it because I've never seen one before, but the best way I could describe it was they had something that looked like like multiple towel racks that radiated heat that they would hang their clothes on to dry.  
In America sales people are very courteous and will nearly bend over backwards to help you.  Over there, don't be surprised if the shopkeeper is quite literally yelling at you to see what you want within ten seconds of walking in the door.  ::  (This, of course, varies on the store.  I went to a bookstore and the people there were fairly kind and helpful) Also over there while standing in line at a restaurant or street vendor it'd be a good idea to know what you want well before it's time for you to order.   In America people can quite often hold the line trying to decide what they want to buy. 
Don't try to leave your change.  In America many establishments have "take-a-penny" cups by the register.  The idea is if you get a few pennies as change you can leave it for someone else to use to make things come out even.  (For example, if your change is 1 cent you can leave it in the cup. Then perhaps the next person, or someone else later, who has a total of $1.01 can give the person at the register $1 and then a penny from the cup.  That way they don't have to give the person at the register $2 and receive $0.99 cents in change--a lot of coins are annoying to carry around.)  While in Kiev I tried to leave my change with a lady selling newspapers, but she was quite adamant about making me take it.

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## Deborski

> For getting off the process seemed to consist of tapping the person in front of you (usually after the bus leaves the stop before yours and is still in motion) and asking them вы выходите? If the answer was no, you would begin this 'dance' of trading places (keep in mind the bus is usually extremely packed). You would continue to do this until the person ahead of you is responds that they are getting off, and then you are to assume that they have done the same thing you just did and that everyone in front of them is getting off as well.

 That brings back memories)) 
I remember two babushkas dueling with umbrellas for a seat on the bus!

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## LXNDR

> ....

 in continuation of the topic about Ukrainian public transportation (in a regional town) 
collecting fare after taking off is actually against the law, but nobody seems to care or be scared 
the passengers must request the stop out loud the earlier the better but even then there's no guarantee the driver will hear them so sometimes quarrels break out over who's mute and who's deaf, doors get slammed and driving becomes erratic 
exiting the bus some passengers thank the driver, and i always wonder what for 
buses are not equipped with air conditioning, so in summer the only source of coolness is hot air coming in through windows and open sunroofs. when there's a woman with a baby even those could get shut at her demand so the baby doesn't catches cold from the draught 
i rode once a Germany manufactured bus which i don't believe doesn't have climate control system, the day was hot but still it wasn't on  
overall it's an inherent chaos, if for some odd reason rules need to be put in place they're invented on the spot, very little is being done according to the written official legislation, disregard to the law is total and ingenuous

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## LXNDR

Bronx residential area courtyards in pictures  Блог о городах - Бронкс — крыши и дворы

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## gRomoZeka

> the passengers must request the stop out loud the earlier the better but even then there's no guarantee the driver will hear them so sometimes quarrels break out over who's mute and who's deaf, doors get slammed and driving becomes erratic

 "State" buses, trolleybuses, etc. always stop at predefined stops without asking. Only smallish "marshrutkas" ('taxis for poor') tend to skip small or "unpopular" stops and prefer to stop there on demand only, which is nice, since it makes the ride faster.  

> overall it's an inherent chaos

 ?? 
I'd say the system is pretty straightforward.

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## LXNDR

> "State" buses, trolleybuses, etc. always stop at predefined stops without asking. Only smallish "marshrutkas" ('taxis for poor') tend to skip small or "unpopular" stops and prefer to stop there on demand only, which is nice, since it makes the ride faster.

 OK, where i reside there're no 'state' buses, the 'state' trolleybuses run once an hour on two routes only, the rest is fixed-route taxis many of which technically are buses, and these do not like to stop on demand preferring to do so at fixed bus stops (another law violation) which still need to be requested, and skipping them if nobody requests or waives from the bus stop, sometimes they don't stop despite being thumbed
under passenger seat at the back you're likely to find a wheel or a tire 
over here it's the trolleybuses which can be called 'for poor' as the fare is lower and the ride is slower, i believe this should apply for everywhere since trolleybus and trolley depots are state owned   

> i rode once a Germany manufactured bus which i don't believe doesn't have climate control system, the day was hot but still it wasn't on

   

> ... We tested new buses on an exemplary Artiom street. Talked to a cashier and he confessed that buses made in Lvov (a Ukrainian city one of Euro-2012 hosts) constantly go out of order. From him we also found out the secret of the climate system, an issue which bothers many Donetsk residents, namely why the air conditioning being ostensibly present, doesn't actually function. It turned out that having spend the finances on the air conditioner the orderer (that is the city council) saved on the pipes which channel the cold air across the cabin.  
> source: Архив журналиста - Европатруль в Донецке, часть 1 (19 фото, 5 видео)

 --------------------------------------------------------------------   

> ?? 
> I'd say the system is pretty straightforward.

 that was said about life in general   
another very interesting custom is painting border stones white near houses on the eve of festal days that goes along with lime daubing of trees trunks

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## kidkboom

> Sorry to say, but I think you are being judgemental yourself here.

 I respect what you're saying - but what other response shall I give to "American kids go to college because they're too stupid to flip burgers?"  
Imagine the reverse: 
"Russian kids _____ because they're too stupid to ____ ." 
"Irish people ____ because they're too stupid to ____ ." 
"Asian people _____ because they're too stupid to ____ ." 
Where is this going to be acceptable? And in what sense could we fill in the blanks that it would not create a judgmental and biased statement? 
Maybe the error in judgment I made was thinking that his train of thought would lead to nothing but further debasement of that demographic. Maybe instead it will inspire some American kid. "Flip burgers, eh? Well, nothing to do in the face of insult but to change the entire frame of my personal life in the hopes it will sway the stereotypes made against my demographic, across the breadth of time to come. [_Attends college with the immeasurable goal of meeting capecoddah's unmentioned standards of behavior_]" 
I have no argument with the statement he/she is making about hiring practices. I do take issue with the wanton use of stereotypical language, only suitable here because the culprit is "American kids" and not "Russian kids" or "jews" or "blacks" or "women" or "disabled people."  
I like being friendly and agreeable with people on this website, but there are times when I have to speak frankly.  
And why would you want to defend this train of thought?

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## Lampada

> ...I like being friendly and agreeable with people on this website, but there are times when I have to speak frankly.  
> And why would you want to defend this train of thought?

 Where have you seen me defending negative stereotyping? I absolutely did not like that capeccodah's post but we are all entitled to our own opinions.  
It's when I feel that posting is getting too personal and too angry I want to interfere.

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## it-ogo

People talk ...(Deleted. L.)

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## it-ogo

::  That's a pity. It was a nice philosophic aphorism without anything personal towards anybody concrete.

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## gRomoZeka

> That's a pity. It was a nice philosophic aphorism without anything personal towards anybody concrete.

 You made me curious.  ::

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## Hanna

As a neutral observer.... It seems to me that one of the things that Russia and the USA have in common culturally, is that the level of education and intelligence varies dramatically between different parts of society. (Europe does not have as dramatic differences, everyone is more in the middle of the scale.... ) 
Russia is famous both for amazingly smart people... elite mathematicians, chess players..... and for yobs, hooligans and alcoholics!
The USA has some amazingly smart and creative people at the top universities and organisations... and like Capecoddah said, university graduates who think Africa is a country. 
I was wondering, what has the TREND been in education in the USA vs Russia over, say, the last 30 years? 
In the opinion of natives of the respective countries..? 
Is it getting better or worse.... what ought the government do, if anything?

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## kidkboom

> Where have you seen me defending negative stereotyping? I absolutely did not like that capeccodah's post but we are all entitled to our own opinions. 
> It's when I feel that posting is getting too personal and too angry I want to interfere.

 Well, I apologize.   
I could probably benefit from the utilization of a little more restraint, myself.  I'll watch it in the future.

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## Deborski

What could we say about the concept of "fate"?  There seem to be major differences in the way Russians and Americans think about fate or destiny. 
In my experience, Americans prefer to believe that they can create their own fate, whereas Russians seem to think fate is something outside of one's control.  Can anyone elaborate more on this?

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## zxc

Also--  

> Also, dressing standards in America seem "poor" to many Russians who do not understand "Wal*Mart People".

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## Deborski

I must confess, I don't understand Wal*Mart people either.  I refuse to go there.  When my husband shops there, I sit outside in the car.  I have anxiety attacks if I go inside.  It's crowded with the most ignorant people you can imagine.  *shudder*  And then there is the whole moral dilemma of buying stuff "cheap" - which destroys local "mom and pop" businesses, creates a retail economy, and supports horrific working conditions in countries like China.  Wal*Mart is pure evil, in my opinion.

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## Hanna

> lime daubing of trees trunks

 Why is this done? I have wondered about this all my life. In some countries this is really common and in some countries you never see it. I have never been able to figure this out.

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## Dmitry Khomichuk

They do it to protect trees from sudden weather change in early spring and late autumn. Also to protect from bugs, lichen, timber fungus, etc. There are many kinds of covering: different mixes of lime, clay etc.

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## xdns

Painting trees with some white substance is widespread in Russia  :: 
I remember an explanation from primary school that it's done to help insectivorous birds to find and eliminate bugs on snow-white trunks. But I'm not sure if it's true.

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## diogen_

> What could we say about the concept of "fate"?  There seem to be major differences in the way Russians and Americans think about fate or destiny. 
> In my experience, Americans prefer to believe that they can create their own fate, whereas Russians seem to think fate is something outside of one's control.  Can anyone elaborate more on this?

 Well, "fate" is probably a way too bookish and alien concept for most Russians.
The word "авось" (a syncretic union of chance, luck , hope, and some efforts) could probably  be more accurate. ::

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## LXNDR

> They do it to protect trees from sudden weather change in early spring and late autumn. Also to protect from bugs, lichen, timber fungus, etc. There are many kinds of covering: different mixes of lime, clay etc.

  

> Painting trees with some white substance is widespread in Russia 
> I remember an explanation from primary school that it's done to help insectivorous birds to find and eliminate bugs on snow-white trunks. But I'm not sure if it's true.

 i'm really curious how trees survive without it in other parts of the world 
basically if you wish to make a city look like a village daub trees with lime 
man, it's so lime  
ok this at least has explanation, is there explanation for painting border stones white?

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## Hanna

> i'm really curious how trees survive without it in other parts of the world 
> basically if you wish to make a city look like a village daub trees with lime 
> man, it's so lime
> ok this at least has explanation, is there explanation for painting border stones white?

 Well that's interesting because some of the countries where trees are painted have exactly the same climate and flora / fauna as countries where trees are not painted. 
So who knows?   
As for painted stones, the story I heard in school is that stones are sometimes painted white or reflective paint to be visible for low flying airplanes. 
It must be a very old practice though, because throughout my lifetime at least, there have been more modern ways of navigating for airplanes... 
A lot of weird things like this though, are from the War.... For example removing street signs... So if the enemy invades, they won't be able to know what street they are on... LOL! To this day there are still places in the UK where there are practically no street signs, and this is the explanation I have heard.  
 When I was going by train in Romania, I swear most stations had no sign to show the traveller what station you were at, and they did not announce it either. You were forced to ask somebody if you needed to know. Half the time you were not even sure whether the train was even at a station or not.  
This too, is supposedly some kind of old paranoia related practice, although it's hard to notice what difference it makes.

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## gRomoZeka

> i'm really curious how trees survive without it in other parts of the world 
> basically if you wish to make a city look like a village daub trees with lime 
>  man, it's so lime

 Man, do you see ANYTHING NOT in the negative light? 
The primary goal of painting trunks is to scare off hares and such (in village areas) and insects when a tree is in its most vulnerable (it also kills bugs who already managed to hide in the bark). The other reason is that it protects bark from sun and frost burns and prevents isolated parts of a tree from an early "awakening", because during early spring the difference between night and day temperatures can be quite big and potentially damaging. 
At least it's supposed to work this way, as our primary teacher insisted.  ::  There are different opinions on this matter. 
This practice is widespread in cities now, but initially it was used mostly for fruit trees for obvious reasons: they are more fragile than wild trees, and a fruit tree that awoke and blossomed too early would not give a lot of fruits - the blossoms often fall off when the late frosts strike. And in regards to city "non-blossoming" trees it's probably mindless tradition, supported by a fact that some people think that it looks nice (early spring in city could be very muddy and gray, and white trunks lighten it up a little).

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## gRomoZeka

In addition to my previous post.   ::  
I made a quick Internet search and apparently painting tree trunks is rather popular in many countries with hot climate for the same reason (fighting sun burns and insects). 
Mexico (there are accounts of seeing painted trees even in forests):  
Orange grove in Turkey:  
An article on ehow.com about paining trees (with reasons and explanations):   
I believe it's possible to find similar examples in some other countries with colder, or to be more exact with _acutely continental_ climate_._

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## Throbert McGee

Adding to what gRomoZeka said about painting tree trunks: when I lived on a military base in Okinawa, some of the trees were painted this way, although the Okinawan climate is sub-tropical, so the winter/spring temperature change isn't the issue.  
Apparently, in hot climates, it's done mostly to protect the bark of young trees from sunburn. This is especially important if you have trees planted far apart from each other along a road, since the trees don't get shade from each other's leaves. Also, along a road, the white paint makes the trees more reflective to vehicle headlights! (Border stones may be painted white for the same reason: so they're easier to see at night.)

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## Anixx

Interestingly some well-decorated American painters are involved in plagiarism of the works of Russian painters. 
For example, the honored American painter Sandow Birk created some of his paintings by copying from Russian art. Here is a painting "Minsk in 1944" by Belorussian painter 
Valentin Volkov which was created from 1944 to 1955:   
And here is "The Liberation of Baghdad" by Birk:  
Here is The Flying Carpet by Viktor Vasnetsov (1880):  
And this is "The President's Dream":   
I am quite sure that the first painting constitutes a criminal copyright infringement. 
Interestingly, the Wikipedia article about Sandow Birk Sandow Birk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
does not mention this his practice to use images by other painters as starting point for creating his pieces of art.

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## Throbert McGee

> I was wondering, what has the TREND been in education in the USA vs Russia over, say, the last 30 years? 
> In the opinion of natives of the respective countries..? 
> Is it getting better or worse.... what ought the government do, if anything?

 One general observation I'd make is that when reading news stories about how "30% of US high school graduates can't find the US on a world map", it's wise to remember Mark Twain's aphorism: _There are lies; there are damned lies; and then there are statistics._  
Different people with different agendas have different reasons to manipulate statistical numbers about educational performance -- sometimes making the students look better than they really are; sometimes making them look worse. For example, the claim that *N% can't find their own city/state/country on a map!!!* is an "Evergreen" topic for newspaper editorialists, because it's always guaranteed to generate letters from ordinary citizens as well as from officials and politicians, with everyone proposing his "pet" solution to the problem. 
Stereotypically, those on the left may exaggerate illiteracy figures in order to argue that we need to spend less on fighter planes and more on public schools; while those on the right may also exaggerate the problem, in order to argue that the public education system is corrupted by teachers' unions and that we should spend more tax money on public-school alternatives (such as "voucher coupons" that poor families can use to send their kids to private schools). 
But note that both sides quote _the same frightening statistic_ that 1 out of 4 students don't know such-and-such! (In other contexts, the picture painted is overly rosy, instead of overly gloomy, depending on the argument.) 
I don't have a strong opinion on this, though anecdotally, I've met quite a few college-educated African-American adults from lower-class backgrounds who attribute their success to the fact that their parents somehow or other managed to send them to Catholic schools instead of urban public schools.

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## Throbert McGee

> I am quite sure that the first painting constitutes a criminal copyright infringement.

 Difficult to say -- "satirical intent" and "parody" are often (but NOT always) a defense against copyright infringement, and I think it's clear that both of the Birk paintings have satirical intent. For example, I would assume that in _Liberation of Baghdad_, he intended to compare the Bush administration's portrayal of the war with _[ominous music]_ SOVIET PROPAGANDA!!! 
On the other hand, "parody" by nature assumes that the audience is generally familiar with the source being copied, and I doubt that the Volkov painting of Minsk is known to most Americans. So it would be difficult to prove unlawful "plagiarism" of Dali's _The Persistence of Memory_...   
...because the work is universally known and every viewer immediately understands that the artist does not intend to present his parody as a completely original work. But the "average American viewer" of Birk's work would not realize that _Liberation of Baghdad_ is "quoting" heavily from someone else's work. (However, if Birk presented a framed print of Volkov's original side-by-side with his own painting, that might be a successful defense against plagiarism.) 
On the third hand, IANAL, so my analysis might be totally wrong.

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## Hanna

> For example, the honored American painter Sandow Birk created some of his paintings by copying from Russian art. Here is a painting "Minsk in 1944" by Belorussian painter Valentin Volkov which was created from 1944 to 1955:
> .

 That first one is just too embarrasing! There is no doubt.... 
"Liberation of Baghdad", what tosh! 
As a result of this wonderful liberation we now have about 3 million Iraqis with refugee status in Europe... Prior to this liberation they were quite happy to stick around in their own country. And Iraq, if anything, is in a worse state than it was before the "liberation".    
Re the painting: I'm surprised they did not put in some cute little girls that offered flower bouqets to the "liberators".... 
It's amazing that anyone in this day and age can paint something like this and take it seriously.  
And after ALL the critisism by Americans about "propaganda" in the USSR..... they actually COPY Russian propagandistic type art, with the difference that Minsk genuinely WAS liberated from an occupying enemy, not attacked by a country on the other side of planet like in the case of Iraq.

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## kidkboom

> That first one is just too embarrasing! There is no doubt.... 
> "Liberation of Baghdad", what tosh! 
> As a result of this wonderful liberation we now have about 3 million Iraqis with refugee status in Europe... Prior to this liberation they were quite happy to stick around in their own country. And Iraq, if anything, is in a worse state than it was before the "liberation".  
> Re the painting: I'm surprised they did not put in some cute little girls that offered flower bouqets to the "liberators".... 
> It's amazing that anyone in this day and age can paint something like this and take it seriously.  
> And after ALL the critisism by Americans about "propaganda" in the USSR..... they actually COPY Russian propagandistic type art, with the difference that Minsk genuinely WAS liberated from an occupying enemy, not attacked by a country on the other side of planet like in the case of Iraq.

 I'm hoping that what Mr. McGee says is accurate, because to me it seems like a really tongue-in-cheek endeavor, an attempt to make a statement about the vacuousness of the whole Bush Crusades.  If anyone took this seriously, then (imho) it's not only in poor taste, but kind of crazy, too.  ::

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## Anixx

Thanks, If this is a parody or satire, it becomes clear for me. I somehow decided that this is a serious painting designed to to glorify American army but the painter found no other way than just take some historical paintings as a base in hope that nobody will spot.

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## it-ogo

> For example, I would assume that in _Liberation of Baghdad_, he intended to compare the Bush administration's portrayal of the war with _[ominous music]_ SOVIET PROPAGANDA!!! 
>  On the other hand, "parody" by nature assumes that the audience is generally familiar with the source being copied, and I doubt that the Volkov painting of Minsk is known to most Americans.

  There are several level of message. Most people will take it serious. Some will find that it is too cheesy to be serious. And very few will recognize the reference. Most probably the effect of all levels together is what was intended. This kind of art is called "postmodernism" even though this term is a bit old-fashioned (new-fashioned term is "trolling"  :: ).  
 I suspect that most works of Birk have such hidden references to poorly-known pieces of art of different times and cultures. So his fans can train erudition and search for deeper sense.  ::  
But technically it can be a plagiarism, yes.

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## Deborski

I've seen the white-painted trees in the States too.  Always wondered why they did that.  Thanks for the info, everyone.

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## maxmixiv

Про автобусы: Автобус - Autobus - YouTube  Копипаста:Копроэкономика — Lurkmore

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## Throbert McGee

> There are several level of message. Most people will take it serious. Some will find that it is too cheesy to be serious.

 I agree that, considered by itself, _Liberation of Baghdad_ might be taken seriously in a GO-USA! way by some jingoistic people. But when seen side-by-side with _The President's Dream_, that "too cheesy" quality and the general sarcasm become more obvious. 
As a more general observation, I would point out that in a domestic US context, some people's criticism of the Iraq War was hopelessly entangled with and colored by their anger over the 2000 election -- in other words, the war *had to be evil* not simply -- and perhaps not even primarily -- because many innocent Iraqis were killed, but because BUSH AND HIS PLUTOCRATIC RETHUGLIKKKAN NEO-NAZIS ILLEGALLY STOLE THE ELECTION AND GORE SHOULD'VE BEEN PRESIDENT ARGGH BARRGLE GAAAAH!!!!!!!! And analysis of "Bush's War" was sometimes colored by other factors that had nothing at all to do with the pertinent question _"Will this invasion of Iraq, in the long run, tend to improve stability in the Middle East?"_ (The gay columnist/blogger Andrew Sullivan, for instance, was an early supporter of the war, but turned completely against it with rather suspicious suddenness when George Bush endorsed the idea of a Constitutional Amendment to ban same-sex marriage.)  
Whether any of this applied to Birk, I can't say, because I don't have a clue about his general political views. But it's important to consider that his paintings supposedly about the Iraq War may have been, on an underlying level, paintings about the Bush Administration. (Of course, this also applies to supporters of the war -- some of whom may have been reluctant to criticize the war policy because they supported Bush's election in 2000 and did not want to ally with Gore supporters, or because they didn't want to be associated with "9/11 Troofers", or whatever. But in short, issues not related to "Does this war make sense as foreign policy?" affected their opinions on the war, too.)

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## Deborski

I'm not a big fan of Bush, but my hatred of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is bigger than my disgust with him as a President.  Initially, I supported the invasion into Afghanistan, since at the time supposedly we were going after Osama Bin Laden.  But Iraq??  I think it's almost impossible to separate the Iraq war from Dubya.  I'm Glad Obama is finally getting us out of there - although the military contractors still there are a whole other story.  And now it's starting to look like we will never leave Afghanistan. 
I think US media is complicit in the war crimes Bush/Cheney are accused of.  Although, I must admit it was brilliant strategy on the part of US military leaders to start "embedding" reporters.  The stupid reporters think they are getting some kind of scoop by being included by the military - when actually, they are being carefully positioned and controlled.  The last time we had an HONEST, UNCENSORED look at war was during the Vietnam era.  If we broadcast the carnage and nightly casualty reports today, the way we did back then, maybe we would have gotten out of Afghanistan a long time ago.  But then who knows?  Maybe nothing shocks us anymore, maybe we are so used to carnage that it has become a part of our lives.  That is a scary thought. 
On the other hand, once the predator drones start taking US citizens out on our own home turf, maybe there will be some kind of outcry.  It will be muffled of course, the way the Occupy movement has been muffled, but still - it's good to hear people at least attempt to fight back against the growing police state.

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## Anixx

Vietnam war was a different story because at the time US army was conscripted and casualties were high due the Soviet help to the Vietnamese side.

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## Deborski

> Vietnam war was a different story because at the time US army was conscripted and casualties were high due the Soviet help to the Vietnamese side.

 Good point... and I hate to say it, but today's wars seem quite mercenary to me.

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## Anixx

> Good point... and I hate to say it, but today's wars seem quite mercenary to me.

 Mercenary war usually does not create mass protest even it the casualties high because all the soldiers are volunteers. And American casualties in modern wars are negligible (less than of a similar group of civilians). I think during assault on Libya the US did not loose a single soldier with several tens of thousand killed from the Libyan side.

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## fortheether

As an American, I wasn't aware of the more polite way to ask questions:   http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile...le/488073.html 
Scott

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