# Forum General General Discussion  disrespect to Russian culture!

## Артемида

when i visited Masterrusian for the first time i ve noticed one strange thing -  *Leo* Tolstoy, while his real name was Lev actually. I forgot about this, but recently i got acquainted with portugues translation of War and Peace...again *Leon* Tolstoy, Andrew Bolkonski, Peter Bezukhov and so on, it's appreared that in Italian translation situation is the same, moreover Italians know only *Theodoro* Dostoievski. Also in all translations there s something strange with women sirnames - Natasha *Rostov* for example, i was really shocked. 
Why people dont respect russian culture? what for to translate names? and do other countries use the same method of translation?

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## Niamh

I don't think it's intentional disrespect! Sure you say ГИТЛЕР instead of Hitler and Hamlet takes G too. However name changing gets right on my t!ts too.

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## Старик

Many christian names have their roots in the (Latin) bible and developed different forms in different languages. Therefore it is not completely wrong to "translate" names (John, Jean, Johannes, Иван). But today it is done less often then in former times (that's at least my impression). 
About male / female forms of Russian surnames: For foreigners who are not familiar with Russian naming conventions it would often be confusing if two married persons have different surnames. Therefore some translaters decide to use only one (i.e. the male) form.
I don't think that it shows disrespect for Russian culture.

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## MasterAdmin

I do not think it's disrespect. Oftentimes it's simply impossible to immitate pronunciation of other languages and people are trying to find a way that works and means something for them.

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## Zhenya

How is changing some of the names disrespect pf the whole culture? Here in Sweden (where I am at the moment) they spell it Solzjenitsyn, and Pusjkin, because of the language special pronouciationrules...It is hardly discrespectful to adapt foregin names and places so that the natives can pronounce and say it. Same in all countries, everyone has their own way of saying things  ::  It is no more an issue of respect to say Швеция, than it is to say f.e Leo Tolstoy

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## Camel

Да.. Во наглые. Все нашу страну называют либо Россия либо Руссия а вы "Раша"  ::

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## JJ

Китайцы, наверно, тоже обижаются - они ведь "хань" и живут в Чжунго, а их - "китайцы", "Китай"....  ::

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## Dogboy182

Theres this russian guy at my work and his name is Ivan but he insists everyone calls him jhon. I guess he's disrespecting himself?

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## mountain girl

I don't think that people who change Russian surnames to the male form in English mean it disrespectfully.  My Russian teacher back in high school remembered when he was called to enrollment services and had to explain that 2 new Russian students really were brother and sister even though their last names weren't exactly the same.  They weren't going to enroll the students because they thought they were lying about being siblings in order to enroll in our district using the same address.  Keeping male and female surnames is difficult in the US where people are not used to it and it can cause confusion.

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## Dogboy182

Mountain girl from seattle? Me too. Exept, there are not any mountains in seattle. Unless of course you are lying and you are really from the seattle tacoma metropolitan area. In which case you live in a city like renton, or puyalup even! So, are you from the mountains or from the city? 
Also, about the names. Yea its no big thing. Some names are diffrent in diffrent languages.

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## mountain girl

Ok, you're right.  There's no mountains in Seattle, just lots of hills and water.  I'm from Mukilteo/unincorporated Snohomish county area and like spending my free time rock climbing and hiking in the mountains (hence the name mountain girl).  After I graduate from school I'll probably get a job in the city of Seattle.  Are you from right in the city?

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## Dogboy182

No, I'm from the Auburn, Kent, Federal way Area. (AKA area code 253!!)

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## Scorpio

Calling Tolstoy "Leo" became a tradition. But these traditions are totally illogical.
I'll prefer to see "Lev Tolstoy", "Fyodor Dostoyevsky", "Pyotr the Great" (not Peter), "Nikolay II" (not Nicholas), etc.

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## Zhenya

> Китайцы, наверно, тоже обижаются - они ведь "хань" и живут в Чжунго, а их - "китайцы", "Китай"....

  точно... 
[/quote]"Nikolay II" (not Nicholas) 

> Ok this one is doubtfull for me, I think that choosing "Nicholas" is just pushing it, it sounds silly to. Just like all biblical names sound very silly when made "Mary" instead of Maria, John instead of Josef and so on...

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## Zhenya

hm....reversed quoting...

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## Артемида

> Many christian names have their roots in the (Latin) bible and developed different forms in different languages. Therefore it is not completely wrong to "translate" names (John, Jean, Johannes, Иван). But today it is done less often then in former times (that's at least my impression).

 just imagin, you are reading russian folk tale and see such names: Johannes Zarevitsch(or even Kaiser), and you think that this is normal? People will absolutely forget that they are reading RUSSIAN story, it's nonsence! I was shocked also because nothing like this happens in russian translations. Пётр Джонс - if i saw this in a book, i would think that translator is a bit crazy.(with exception that it would be evident that the charachter was connected with russia/russians, was half russian, etc)   

> For foreigners who are not familiar with Russian naming conventions it would often be confusing if two married persons have different surnames.

 so what? translator must explain everything in a book, like it s done in russian translations, many words can't be rendered, there are many cultural differences, but we read foreign literature not only for fun. 
If to think like most of you, let's translate sirnames also, because foreign words, can confuse someone.

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## scotcher

So do you believe that when Russians decline western male names (Джордж Буш --> Джорджа Буша -->Джордже Буше etc) , that they are disrespecting the English language, which doesn't decline names in this way? 
Stop being paranoid.

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## TATY

Sometimes it can be a bit though. 
Like when people say "White Russia" I think that's taking translaiton a bit too far. 
Вера is the Russian equivalent of the english name Faith. But English aslo has the name Vera...

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## Nixer

Артемида, just imagine: english-speackers call Stalin "Joseph" or even "uncle Joe"  ::    

> So do you believe that when Russians decline western male names (Джордж Буш --> Джорджа Буша -->Джордже Буше etc) , that they are disrespecting the English language, which doesn't decline names in this way?

 Because there are some rights in Russian. If they speak Russian of course. So they never say "Георгий Буш" or even "Юрий Буш". Maybe just as a joke.  
...TATY, Вера is a short form of Вероника. (Veronica)

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## BETEP

> Like when people say "White Russia" I think that's taking translaiton a bit too far.

 Interestingly, but historically that's right ("Белая Русь").   

> Because there are some rights in Russian. If they speak Russian of course. So they never say "Георгий Буш" or even "Юрий Буш". Maybe just as a joke.

 Клавка Шифер.  ::

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by TATY  Like when people say "White Russia" I think that's taking translaiton a bit too far.   Interestingly, but historically that's right ("Белая Русь").        Originally Posted by Nixer  Because there are some rights in Russian. If they speak Russian of course. So they never say "Георгий Буш" or even "Юрий Буш". Maybe just as a joke.   Клавка Шифер.

 Yes that's what I'm saying. I know Belorus means White Russia. But you don't have to translate. Did people ever say Southslavland? No.

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## Zhenya

hehe

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## N

> So they never say "Георгий Буш" or even "Юрий Буш". Maybe just as a joke.

 Жора Куст - на некоторых форумах ::

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## BETEP

> Yes that's what I'm saying. I know Belorus means White Russia. But you don't have to translate. Did people ever say Southslavland? No.

 You didn't get. "Белая Русь" is an official term (it's the only name you shoud use when you are saying about 11-12 ages). It sounds sorta America instead USA.

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## Pravit

> Китайцы, наверно, тоже обижаются - они ведь "хань" и живут в Чжунго, а их - "китайцы", "Китай"....

 The origin of this word is actually kind of interesting. The word is derived from "Khitan", which was the name of some Mongol kingdom in the Uighur area. Apparently Russians adopted this term whereas other countries derived something from "Chin"(from the Qin dynasty).    

> just imagin, you are reading russian folk tale and see such names: Johannes Zarevitsch(or even Kaiser), and you think that this is normal? People will absolutely forget that they are reading RUSSIAN story, it's nonsence!

 Considering that in "War and Peace" people speak French half the time, sometimes I forget too.  ::

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## Propp

> So do you believe that when Russians decline western male names (Джордж Буш --> Джорджа Буша -->Джордже Буше etc) , that they are disrespecting the English language, which doesn't decline names in this way? 
> Stop being paranoid.

 Something like this happens with brand names. Take for example Coka-Cola, it doesn't decline in the ads: "Всегда с Кока-кола, пейте Кока-кола". F..., I hate this. I'll always decline Кока-колу.

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## scotcher

That'll be an example of Coca Cola's *Corporate Brand Control Department (International)*  at work right there. 
Yeah, you go ahead and decline away. Fight the power, brother  ::

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## Nixer

> Yes that's what I'm saying. I know Belorus means White Russia. But you don't have to translate. Did people ever say Southslavland?

 There is Russland in German  ::  
Кстати, а почему мы говорим Джордж Буш, но английский король Георг? У них же ондинаковые имена.

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## QWERTYZ

потому что буш новодельный а европейским королям в русском языке сотни лет ...наверное

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## Артемида

> So do you believe that when Russians decline western male names (Джордж Буш --> Джорджа Буша -->Джордже Буше etc) , that they are disrespecting the English language, which doesn't decline names in this way? 
> Stop being paranoid.

 read my posts more attentively, i ment absolutely another thing...if writing *Theodoro* Dostoievski isn't a disrespect, then why do people do it? I doubt that this is a tradition, simply arrogance, or just non comprehension of another culture and no will to understand and to know it...it seems to me that people who translate russian books dont really know where russia is...

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## scotcher

> read my posts more attentively, i ment absolutely another thing...if writing *Theodoro* Dostoievski isn't a disrespect, then why do people do it?

 My guess would be laziness. The point of the translation is to make the reader's life as easy as possible, and since the reader most likely couldn't care less about the accuracy of the way names were interpreted, they are often swapped for a related name from the target language.  
Besides, all the examples you've used are historical figures who's names were first translated decades or even centuries ago. They would be unlikely to be treated the same way now (in fact, I have an English translation of "Преступление и Наказание" right here where Федор is written as Fyodor, which is as close to a phonetic transliteration as is possible, in spite of the historical tendency to represent it as Theodore) 
If you were a little more attentive yourself you would have noticed that Nixer already gave an example of where Russian has exactly the same contradiction:  Джордж Буш/ король Георг. Both of these people were called George. Were Russians who called Prince George 'король Георг' being disresectful, arrogant, or lacking in understanding of a foreign culture, or were they just using a name they knew?   

> I doubt that this is a tradition, simply arrogance, or just non comprehension of another culture and no will to understand and to know it...it seems to me that people who translate russian books dont really know where russia is...

 Great, go ahead, doubt it if you want to. You can walk around with a needless chip on your shoulder for the rest of your life for all I care, just don't expect everyone to automatically go along with it. 
I'd like to know what motive you think a translator, someone who has devoted a large part of his life to studying another language and culture, would vindictively choose to insult that culture through something as inobtrusive as a name after spending weeks or months painstakingly translating the rest of the text, but I wont ask since I don't believe paranoia is ever reasoned.

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## VendingMachine

> Sure you say ГИТЛЕР instead of Hitler and Hamlet takes G too.

 Dunno, I think most people in my counrty say Амлет, Итлер - we tend to drop our haitches (the г in such words is corresponds to the Germanic H and when it is pronounced it's pronounced as in the interjection ага - that is aha, nobody says aga).

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## Nixer

This is difficult to realise that Джордж and Георг are the same name. 
Most people in Russia, if you ask them, will say that George V and George Bush had different names. 
May be there is another issue: in the Medieval many European monarchs married abroad, changed their countries, divided and merged them. So in different languages the name of a person would be different. Why the person must be called according the English rules if he is from France or the opposite. So, there was some "international" forms of names in use. 
For example, we say "Карл Великий", in spite that French call him "Шарль". In Germany he is Karl though. But according to XX century we say "Шарль де Голль".

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## Pravit

> Originally Posted by Niamh  Sure you say ГИТЛЕР instead of Hitler and Hamlet takes G too.   Dunno, I think most people in my counrty say Амлет, Итлер - we tend to drop our haitches (*the г in such words is corresponds to the Germanic H and when it is pronounced it's pronounced as in the interjection ага - that is aha, nobody says aga*).

 VM, this is what I was thinking the entire time(that the г was actually an "ага" kind of г, not a hard г) until someone told me that Russians actually say "Gitler." Which way is right?

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## Nixer

There is hard phoneme in "aha" - not г, but hard й sound or "Ukrainian г". It is not soft. 
Yes, we actually say Гитлер (Gitler).

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## Pravit

OK, hard, soft, whatever, my point is that it sounds different from the г in Горький.

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## Nixer

It sounds exactly the same.

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## Pravit

You're saying the г in ага sounds the same as the г in Горький?

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## Friendy

> You're saying the г in ага sounds the same as the г in Горький?

 No, "г" in "ага" _is_ different, it's "г" in "Гитлер" and in "Горький" that sound the same. VM was probably talking about some regional things.

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## Nixer

Не думаю, что в России есть регионы, где говорят "Итлер". В русский язык это слово вошло УЖЕ со звуком "г". Во всех СМИ говорили "Гитлер", "гитлеровцы", "антигитлеровская коалиция" и т.д. Может быть, он говорил о другой стране? Он же вроде в Великобритании живёт.

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## Propp

As we have already agreed, VM lives in the parallel reality.   

> This is difficult to realise that Джордж and Георг are the same name. 
> Most people in Russia, if you ask them, will say that George V and George Bush had different names. 
> May be there is another issue: in the Medieval many European monarchs married abroad, changed their countries, divided and merged them. So in different languages the name of a person would be different. Why the person must be called according the English rules if he is from France or the opposite. So, there was some "international" forms of names in use. 
> For example, we say "Карл Великий", in spite that French call him "Шарль". In Germany he is Karl though. But according to XX century we say "Шарль де Голль".

 Самое интересное, что если вдруг принц Чарльз станет королём, то официально его нужно будет называть Карлом.

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## Nixer

> Самое интересное, что если вдруг принц Чарльз станет королём, то официально его нужно будет называть Карлом.

 Does it exist any special rules for this? 
Кстати, видел как-то детскую библию с картинками, напечатанную в США на русском языке, так там написано, что Исуса крестил какой-то Джон  ::  
Вот врут ведь  ::  Ведь мы все знаем, что это был Иван, даже праздник есть в честь него.

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## Артемида

> Самое интересное, что если вдруг принц Чарльз станет королём, то официально его нужно будет называть Карлом.
> 			
> 		  Does it exist any special rules for this?

 This is just tradition, William will turn into Вильгельм for example    

> Кстати, видел как-то детскую библию с картинками, напечатанную в США на русском языке, так там написано, что Исуса крестил какой-то Джон  
> Вот врут ведь

 вот-вот и я о том же, но в данном случае думаю сильно повлиял английский язык, скорее всего русские иммигранты уже пошли по пути американизации, или сделали специально, чтобы русских детей американизировать.   

> Артемида wrote:  
> read my posts more attentively, i ment absolutely another thing...if writing Theodoro Dostoievski isn't a disrespect, then why do people do it?    
> My guess would be laziness

 no i can't agree with it, just because i am myself traslator, if i make such mistakes, noone will need my service, so i think there are another different standards in the West, standards of isolation, when people dont really interested in another cultures thinking that culture can be only here.   

> If you were a little more attentive yourself you would have noticed that Nixer already gave an example of where Russian has exactly the same contradiction: Джордж Буш/ король Георг

 if Russian translators wrote Георгий then this would be disrespect, but Георг came actually from Germany, and such translation became tradition.

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## VendingMachine

> Не думаю, что в России есть регионы, где говорят "Итлер". В русский язык это слово вошло УЖЕ со звуком "г". Во всех СМИ говорили "Гитлер", "гитлеровцы", "антигитлеровская коалиция" и т.д.

 I say Итлер, people around me say Итлер. But that's in casual speech, of course. In a more refined accent the Г is sounded but it's definately not the Г of город or прыгать, it's like the Ukranian г, a bit like a voiced English h.  In some words the historical г is completely dropped, even in refined speech. Tell me, oh ye native speakers of Russian sage and wise, do you say авария, азарт, ура or do you say гавария, газарт, гура, eh? Are you aware of the fact that those words have "h" in West-European languages? Do you know that people used to say гишпанский, but today you only hear испанский?    

> Может быть, он говорил о другой стране? Он же вроде в Великобритании живёт.

 No, I live in Russia.

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## Nixer

Вот только не надо впаривать, что в твоей деревне люди говорят "Итлер" и "Амлет".

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## N

Ну, по правде говоря, это "Г" почти не произносится. Едва обозначается. Хотя, конечно, нельзя сказать что его совсем там нет. ИМХО.

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## Nixer

Это где это такое, можно узнать?

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## N

См. location  ::  
Я имею ввиду обычную масковскую скороговорку, а не торжественный спич. Никто в этих словах "Г" по-левитановски произносить не будет. Хотя конечно это ещё не Амлет, Итлер. Но на пути к этому.

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## VendingMachine

> Вот только не надо впаривать, что в твоей деревне люди говорят "Итлер" и "Амлет".

 Для твоего сведения, я живу в С-Петербурге. В быстрой разговорной речи говорят таки Итлер, Амлет. В более официальной обстановке г таки артикулируется, но отнюдь не как в слове "ограда", а близко к г в междометьи "ага", что сильно напоминает английское h, но произнесенное шумно, с голосом. 
P.S. Кстати, если уже пошло говорить о деревнях, то недалеко от той деревни, откуда я родом (к сев.-востоку от С-Петербурга), есть местность где, как сейчас помню, простые люди говорят что-то среднее между [й:итлер] и [ж:итлер], там такой резкий и растянутый звук [й:], с таким небольшим жужжащим призвуком. Но там, кстати, есть вообще тенденция добавлять й к словам, начинающимся на гласный, т.е. "ютро" вместо "утро" и т.д. а в других словах, где есть й, оно отпадает, например эли (если), эслиф (если) и т.д. Так вот мне кажется, что в "Гитлер" та же фишка - сперва отпало начальное "г" из-за ослабленного произношения, а потом, по фонетическим законам этого диалекта добавилось "й". Что еще раз доказывает существование ослабленного произношения (раз на его основе пошло дальнейшее фонетическое развитие).

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## Nixer

Бред какой-то. Я НИ РАЗУ такого не слышал. Даже близко.

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## VendingMachine

> Бред какой-то. Я НИ РАЗУ такого не слышал. Даже близко.

 А Вы где живете, милейший?

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## Nixer

В Москве.

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## VendingMachine

> В Москве.

 Ааааа, ну так бы сразу и сказали...   ::

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## Floe

Нифига такого нет и не было никогда в Питере!
Ишь ты блин, "Амлет" )))))

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## VendingMachine

> Нифига такого нет и не было никогда в Питере!
> Ишь ты блин, "Амлет" )))))

 А вот фига - я родом из провинции к северо-востоку от Питера и говорю на фактически двух вариантах русского (на родном диалекте - говорю, пишу, и на "стандартном"  пишу, читаю, понимаю), дык вот, что у меня дома, что в Петербурге в таких словах г практически не произносится, точнее произносится как легкий выдох, а иногда создается впечатление, что вообще отбрасывается, поэтому Гамлет, если нарочно неверно поставить ударение на последний слог звучит также как и еда - омлет. Если чего не знаешь, так не надо тут из себе истину в последней инстанции выделывать. Раскрой уши и слушай.

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## Floe

я живу в питере
ни я сама, ни мои знакомые, да вообще никто здесь так не говорит

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## Lampada

На Украине никто не проглатывает "г".   ::

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## VendingMachine

> я живу в питере
> ни я сама, ни мои знакомые, да вообще никто здесь так не говорит

 Oh yeah? And you never heard people dropping their Г's? I don't believe you. Well, maybe you're one of those posh BZZZZZZZT ? If you live in St Pete you must understand the traditional St Petersburg dialect: зачепца, справядлю! (what did I just say?)

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## Floe

нет, такого не знаю,
более того, даже спросила у пожилой родственницы
(а насчёт "г" я, кстати, прислушивалась тоже)
хотя я и заметила, что чуть ли не каждая семья говорит по-своему, поэтому не будем лучше спорить

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