# Forum About Russia Politics  Elections in Belarus

## bsod

Anybody knows about tomorrow elections in Belarus?

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## Ramil

> Anybody knows about tomorrow elections in Belarus?

 Elections of Lukashenko  ::

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## Eric C.

> Elections of Lukashenko

 The fifth time. Sadly...

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## bsod

Sad but true

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## Hanna

Does anyone have friends or family there who have a view on this? What do they think?  
I have had a chance to read up about Belarus now, and I really think there is a lot of BS floating about in Western media.  I don't think it is as bad as some media make out.    

> "Last dictatorship in Europe" "Lukashenko is a dictator" "No free elections""People are disappearing..."

 *The elections there ARE fair according to EU observers.* However hard they look they cannot find any proof of ballot stuffing or any type of coercion regarding the voting. The participation is about the same as Britain, about 60% 
The problem is that the majority of Belarussians are voting for the "wrong" party/candidate, namely Lukashenko, a socialist who will not open up the country for all-out market capitalism that many powers in the West would support.  *
Solution? Claim that the elections were rigged* and spread catchy one-liners such as "Last dictatorship in Europe".  *
They probably DO have many problems and bad practices* going on there, that should be stopped. But that's another story. If Belarussians prefer socialism/social democracy and think that Lukashenko is OK, so what?   
Also Lukashenko's party has refused to implement IMF recommendations of selling off public assets, reducing pensions, wages and state subsidies (which would mean plunging half of the population at least, into poverty).  
They keep voting for him because they don't want the political chaos of Ukraine, or the poverty of rural Russia. That makes perfect sense, at least to me. As it is now, they have decent free healthcare and good free universities and everyone can afford to live, buy food and clothes. Most families have a car and a computer. The country is clean and orderly. Many have a car and computer.  
Freedom of press is an subjective term but Belarus has privately owned media, including oppositional newspaper that critisize the government. Apparently they have banned printing of some anti-government papers in Belarus itself, so it is printed in the Baltics and imported.  
The "disappeared" people apparently largely left the country and can be found in London, Moscow, Paris etc. So they "disappered" from Belarus but not from the face of the earth. If they have any genuine political prisoners (I can't find anything when I google it) then I think they should release them.  *
Plus the US and the Soros institutions are literally pouring money Into the opposition in Belarus,* so there is probably an agenda there. They've tried several times to stage a "colour revolution" but not succeeded because not enough people are interested.  
I am just NOT convinced that Belarussians in general would be better off if Lukashenko was toppled and a pro-West or pro-Russia market capitalist system was introduced. 
Here is an interesting blog post, including the comments:  http://neilclark66.blogspot.com/2008...n-belarus.html http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2...blic%E2%80%9D/

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## Eric C.

OMG Hanna, I can't believe my eyes... Have you ever been there? You know, the term of "social democracy" as it's seen in Sweden pretty much differs from how it's seen in Belarus...

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## Hanna

> OMG Hanna, I can't believe my eyes... Have you ever been there? You know, the term of "social democracy" as it's seen in Sweden pretty much differs from how it's seen in Belarus...

  Of course I realise that. And no, I haven't been there, but maybe I should add Belarus to my CIS country itinerary this spring. A friend of mine went there for work (she is a journalist, specialising in education). She said the country was in better shape than Ukraine that she also visited. 
If somebody credible from Belarus comes here and says his life is a living hell because of Lukashenko's policies and gives some concrete examples, then I'll happily change my mind.  
But for the time being I believe that the claims about Lukashenko being an evil dictator are about as true as the statements regarding WMDs in Iraq or the righteousness of the war in Afghanistan. And if I was American I'd worry more about what goes in in Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, than in Belarus anyway. 
As far as I can make out, over 65% of Belarussians turned out to vote (normal figure). Of those, 80% voted for Lukashenko without any threats coercion or checks.
This is being verified by international observers, most of who would probably love to find something untoward.

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## bsod

Eric C. +1  Twitter - a lot of posts in English, Russian and Belorussian languages. 
Great protest action preparing in Minsk in 1-2 hour. But strange things occurs in our internet right now (somebody have made copies of greater opposition sites and rerouted belorussian DNS to them, also HTTPS protocol is blocked now (this means that we can't login to gmail, facebook or use any other site which uses a secure protocol).

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## delog

> But strange things occurs in our internet right now (somebody have made copies of greater opposition sites and rerouted belorussian DNS to them, also HTTPS protocol is blocked now (this means that we can't login to gmail, facebook or use any other site which uses a secure protocol).

 On elections eve all opposition sites (charter97.org, electroname.com, ucpb.org etc.) were blocked. ICQ, email and other communicative means too. 
Капец, я не успеваю обновлять сообщения в твитере, это даже на чат не похоже, сообщения льются как символы в заставке матрицы:  

> Мешают активистам выехать. Режут шины,останавливают машины.Задерживают на вокзалах.Люди все равно едут.Нас будет много

  

> Профессиональным взором скажу что сейчас на площади минимум 10 тыс. чел. Люди идут.

  

> ФОТО с Октябрьской площади, постоянное обновление - http://bit.ly/eqaWXd

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## Hanna

Charter97.org is available to me, and very conveniently, fully in English _(why would Belarussians set up an opposition site in English?)_ The site is hosted in the USA. The other sites are hosted in Russia and they seem indeed to be down.  
The Belarussian site "ale.by"is up and showing pictures of a crowd with some red-white banners on a square. No riots, no police violence. Compare with education reforms in the UK.  
Maybe the Russian language opposition sites are just getting more hits  than they can handle, due to the elections. It's pretty common for sites  to go down when lots of people legitimately try to hit them at a same  time, due to some specific event.  
Anyone who believes that a somebody with a genuinely held political view is going to change their mind because a couple of websites are down, is plain stupid. There are about a million ways around any such blocks anyway, and normally there is no restriction of internet usage in Belarus.  
If the sites were hosted in Belarus, then the authorities could take them down. But since they are not, there isn't anything anyone can do, apart from DDosing them a bit, or maybe blocking them at the largest ISPs. This is extremely easy to spot, since you'd get a completely different site, and wouldn't get to the site you are trying to reach at all. Here, you DO get the site but it is busy - either legitimately or by DDOSing.   
If that is really being done by Belarussian intelligence, then it's certainly wrong,  fairly pathetic and most of all a miracle the regime has lasted so long, since it would be imbecill to waste time on something like that. I hardly think it's anything they are involved in.   
EDIT 1:  *ROFL*  :: *- Guess who this lady voted for?*     _
EDIT 2: While I was on the Belarussian opposition website, I got a virus?!?!!!  Huh??! First time ever, that I got one just from being on a website, with Firefox. Not sure which site it was. Luckily I had a clone of my C drive, so no big harm done._

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## Basil77

> OMG Hanna, I can't believe my eyes... Have you ever been there? You know, the term of "social democracy" as it's seen in Sweden pretty much differs from how it's seen in Belarus...

 And have YOU ever been there? I have relatives there and visit them quite often and according to my expirience Hanna described current state of affairs in Belarus quite well and objective.

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## delog

CyberSecurity.ru | технологии | В Белоруссии заблокирован доступ к оппозиционным сайтам, Twitter, YouTube и Gmail

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## Hanna

> http://cybersecurity.ru/news/111113.html]CyberSecurity.ru | технологии | В Белоруссии заблокирован доступ к оппозиционным сайтам, Twitter, YouTube и Gmail[/url]

 If this was TRUE, then the opposition would have pretty solid cause for complaints against Lukashenko's regime.   *It would have very simple for anyone in Belarus to do a Trace Route (tracert) and confirm for SURE what was going on. Most advanced computer/IT people would know how to do it. Is a tracert available?*  
Otherwise it's just general rumour spreading. And how popular are these sites anyway? Wouldn't it make more sense to block the main Russian speaking websites? For example Mail.ru rather than Gmail.  
In China, for example, there is no doubt that these things are happening; the users can trace their packets and  and their requests get redirected long before they get to the blocked site. They get re-directed to a government site with an sign of an animated policeman and some text. It's clear as daylight what's going on. DDosing sounds really amateurish; likewise slamming a block on some randomly selected sites for one day only.  
Belarus is not generally considered to be a country that censors internet usage.  
Any pro-Lukashenko hackers/security people can only do two things: Block access to the opposition sites at the ISPs (which you can still get around with a proxy or VPN), or DDOS the sites (for that, you need your own botnet which usually only cybercriminals have.).  
Neither action makes any logical sense for them to be doing on the election day in particular, but not otherwise.  
The sites are normally accessible to Belarussians. Blocking it on the election day would simply be a bad reflection on them and achieve no benefit.

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## fortheether

A couple of links from drudgereport.com say that there was violence recently:   Thousands try to storm govt building in Belarus - Yahoo! News  France24 - Opposition cries foul over &#039;humiliating&#039; propaganda 
Scott

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## gRomoZeka

Revolutions and opposition lost their meaning when people started to get paid for being oppositioners. 
Anyway, whatever happens it's for people of Belorus to work out.

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## Crocodile

> _why would Belarussians set up an opposition site in English?_

 Ask Misha Tal. He knows the answer.  ::    

> Revolutions and opposition lost their meaning when people started to get paid for being oppositioners.

 I believe, Misha Tal is a good example, isn't he?  ::    

> If this was TRUE, then the opposition would have pretty solid cause for complaints against Lukashenko's regime.

   ::

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## Basil77

Everything seemed rather ok with elections until Lukashenko started to cheat with results (made 80% out of 50%), because he is really scared of the second tour where Moscow could support a different candidate. But the opposition crowd also acted very stupid (or it was a provocation? Although it doesn't look so from the videos that I've seen) trying to capture the goverment building (breaking doors, etc.):    
So goverment forces had to act strictly to prevent a putsch.

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## bsod

YouTube - Правдивый репортаж РЕН ТВ с выборов Лукашенко

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## Ramil

Да, с этими "революционерами" каши не сваришь. Переговоры с силовиками надо было проводить ДО выборов. Обработать нескольких высокопоставленных ментовских чиновников, чтобы, если и не выразили открытого неповиновения, то, хотя бы, задержали бы исполнение приказов. А ещё лучше обрабатывать военных, чтобы поддержали бронёй, если что. Искать союзников в России, Европе, чтобы информационную кампанию готовили.
Не читали Владимира Ильича, про "почту, телеграф, телефон". Телецентр надо было захватывать, выходить в эфир, обращаться к регионам, милиции, войскам. Призывать их на свою сторону. Кому нужно здание правительства?! Что они там забыли?! И толпой управлять не умеют, часть надо было на площади оставлять, а часть вести на телецентр. Плана никакого у людей не было. Вышли, поорали, получили по балде дубиной и побрели домой. Будут ещё 5 лет ждать... Ведь понятно же было, что Лукашенко "победит". Если действительно у него столь слабая поддержка населения, то план действий на случай его "победы" должен был быть готов за полгода до вчерашних событий.
В общем, россияне, мотайте на ус. Нас это ждёт в 2012... в крайнем случае в 2016.

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## Basil77

По ходу Батька действительно выйграл первый тур, но до полтинника не дотянул, так что светил второй, а там глядишь и Кремль бы Некляева или кого там ещё поддержал. Григорич слишком хорошо видать помнит померанчеву заварушку у соседей, чтобы самому идти на такой риск, особенно если не стопроцентно уверен в поддержке из Москвы.
Что же касается нас, то я сомневаюсь, что у нас толпы выйдут возмущаться против избрания Бэтмана или Робина. А вот когда Едре опять нарисуют конституционное большинство в парламенте, я бы может и сам присоединился к протестам, если будут.

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## Ramil

> По ходу Батька действительно выйграл первый тур, но до полтинника не дотянул, так что светил второй, а там глядишь и Кремль бы Некляева или кого там ещё поддержал. Григорич слишком хорошо видать помнит померанчеву заварушку у соседей, чтобы самому идти на такой риск, особенно если не стопроцентно уверен в поддержке из Москвы.

 Скажи, ты действительно думаешь, что даже если бы он набрал менее 5% голосов, сценарий вчерашних событий был бы другим? Не зря умные люди, пытаясь построить что-то вроде модели справедливого общества в виде демократии как формы правления, ограничили максимальный срок пребывания одного лица у власти. Хорошо, пусть Лукашенко -- незаменим, но государство теряет свою эффективность, когда начинается то, что сейчас происходит в Белоруссии. Если так угодно -- лучше (да, да, лучше!) изменить конституцию и реставрировать монархию, гегемонию, тиранию, что угодно. Это будет гораздо меньшим злом, чем то, что происходит сейчас. Государственный аппарат демократического государства всё равно неэффективен. Пусть будет гегемония, пусть будет тирания, но и гос. аппарат должен быть перестроен. А так -- будет в худшем случае бардак, а в лучшем -- стагнация. А результат будет всё равно один -- Лукашенко придётся уйти. Не сейчас, так через 5 лет. Но стране эти 5 лет дадутся гораздо более дорогой ценой.

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## Basil77

Если бы он набрал менее 5%, то его таки бы вышвырнули вчера, ИМХО. Белоруссия всё-таки не Туркмения. А во всём остальном я с тобой согласен. Но, возвращаясь к России, кого нам ещё выбирать-то, акромя тандема? Вот и в Белоруссии, похоже, та же проблема, а точнее искусственно созданное властью отсутствие других серьёзных кандидатур.

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## bsod

> Да, с этими "революционерами" каши не сваришь. Переговоры с силовиками надо было проводить ДО выборов. Обработать нескольких высокопоставленных ментовских чиновников, чтобы, если и не выразили открытого неповиновения, то, хотя бы, задержали бы исполнение приказов. А ещё лучше обрабатывать военных, чтобы поддержали бронёй, если что. Искать союзников в России, Европе, чтобы информационную кампанию готовили.
> Не читали Владимира Ильича, про "почту, телеграф, телефон". Телецентр надо было захватывать, выходить в эфир, обращаться к регионам, милиции, войскам. Призывать их на свою сторону. Кому нужно здание правительства?! Что они там забыли?! И толпой управлять не умеют, часть надо было на площади оставлять, а часть вести на телецентр. Плана никакого у людей не было. Вышли, поорали, получили по балде дубиной и побрели домой. Будут ещё 5 лет ждать... Ведь понятно же было, что Лукашенко "победит". Если действительно у него столь слабая поддержка населения, то план действий на случай его "победы" должен был быть готов за полгода до вчерашних событий.
> В общем, россияне, мотайте на ус. Нас это ждёт в 2012... в крайнем случае в 2016.

 Вот! Золотые слова! Сразу как все дело прошло, точно такие мысли и появились  :: 
Там действительно все неорганизованно было, что ой-ей-ей. Ну а милиция напротив, 5 лет готовилась - за 15 минут всех отколотили и распихали, сколько места было, по автозакам.

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## Crocodile

> 1. Переговоры с силовиками надо было проводить ДО выборов. 
> 2. Там действительно все неорганизованно было, что ой-ей-ей.

 Люди, вы чего серьёзно думаете, что служба безопасности просто так штаны просиживает и ничем не занимается? Вот так просто взял да и договорился с силовиками, мол, Лёха, такое дело - на следующей неделе, как Батьку перевыбирут, мы устраиваем типа протест, а ты со своими ребятами нам не мешай телецентр брать. Как-то так? Да и откуда тому Лёхе знать, что это не очередная проверка? Как вы себе это практически представляете?

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## bsod

В том-то и дело, что не просиживает, потому с ними либо договориться, либо они и 100 000 и 1000 000 с таким же успехом с "плошчы" сметут, там такой ОМОН, что дай бог. Просто обидно, что толпа была не маленька, а распорядились ей вообще бездарно, могли б хоть постоять подольше.
А вот взятки, вербовка, агитация - это да, этим революции и делаются (по крайней мере у нас). (Моральную сторону вопроса в расчет не берем). 
Просто Бацька за 16 лет себе такую опору сколотил из спецназа и чиновников, что попробуй ты к ней подступись. Но ведь подступится же кто-то, не будет же он вечно править, не Корея у нас.
А сейчас ситуация такая, что достал он уже добрую половину, но опозиция у нас вообще никакая, нет ни лидеров ни опыта, и разростись ей естественно никто не дает. А народ боится, т.к. почти все зависят от власти и чуть что - сразу "санкции". Вот и имеем, что имеем.

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## Ramil

> Люди, вы чего серьёзно думаете, что служба безопасности просто так штаны просиживает и ничем не занимается? Вот так просто взял да и договорился с силовиками, мол, Лёха, такое дело - на следующей неделе, как Батьку перевыбирут, мы устраиваем типа протест, а ты со своими ребятами нам не мешай телецентр брать. Как-то так? Да и откуда тому Лёхе знать, что это не очередная проверка? Как вы себе это практически представляете?

 А так и представляю -- думаю, что и в КГБ и в МВД достаточно людей, которых батька тоже задолбал. При определённых гарантиях (к примеру, обещание места в новом правительстве, какой-нибудь достаточно амбициозный человек из "органов" может и рискнуть). К тому же, Лёхе, в таком случае, делают предложение, от которого он "не может отказаться" (с) Марио Пьюзо. Вообще, какие-то странные там кандидаты. Если ты -- кандидат в президенты, у тебя должно быть представление о будущем кабинете министров (в том числе -- кто возглавит ведомства силовиков). Это ж не совсем государственный переворот, а лишь "принуждение президента соблюдать конституцию". И потом, не надо думать, что гэбня всесильна и вездесуща. Это они сами себе такой "имидж" создают. При желании, вполне возможно устроить заговор, про который она либо не узнает, либо узнает слишком поздно. 
Потом, можно было действительно поискать союзников в армии. ОМОНовцы под дулами танков думали бы секунды две, на чью сторону встать. Правда, всё бы это сработало, если бы оппозиция имела ОДНОГО общего кандидата. Тогда бы можно было бы прямо на площади "сформировать правительство", ввести "чрезвычайное положение" и т. п. Вспомните Ельцина в 1991.

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## BappaBa

> Что же касается нас, то я сомневаюсь, что у нас толпы выйдут возмущаться против избрания Бэтмана или Робина.

 +1
Выйдет несколько сотен стареющих мальчиков и девочек (блоггеров).

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## Ramil

> +1
> Выйдет несколько сотен стареющих мальчиков и девочек (блоггеров).

 Это в 12-м, а в 16-м, думаю, задолбают всех весьма основательно.

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## Hanna

Does anybody genuinely doubt that Lukashenko got the majority of the votes, I don't! 
If I was a pensioner, agriculture worker or state employee in Belarus I'd definitely vote for him to continue to have a stable lifestyle and some money coming in. Wouldn't you?  
About the opposition: Apparently Western influence is meddling so much in the opposition in Belarus that they are actually destroying its' chances, by dictating to them what they have to do. They can do this because they finance the opposition movement.  
Apparently Western "pro-democracy" lobbyists "picked" the opposition leader that_ they_ prefer - for example, in 2006 it was somebody whom the American ambassador preferred over the oppositions' own choice.  
If they stepped back and let the Belarussians organise their own opposition and decide who the front man should be, then probably the opposition would do better in the elections. The commentator that I read wasn't sure whether the change had been done as a genuine sabotage, to assure that Lukashenko's victory numbers was even higher than they already would have been (thereby looking more suspicious). Or whether the reason was that there was some kind of deal in place with the person they nominated.  
Belarussians are a tough people after everything they've been through - I think they should be left alone with Lukashenko, or to sort out a transfer of power to someone else themselves. I don't think it's the business of the EU, USA or even Russia.

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## BappaBa

> Это в 12-м, а в 16-м, думаю, задолбают всех весьма основательно.

  Трудно говорить, что будет в 16-м, но пока лично я кризис 2008-го переживаю без таких потерь, к-рые были в 98-м. Поэтому на 12-й год you can count me out. =)

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## delog

> Это в 12-м, а в 16-м, думаю, задолбают всех весьма основательно.

 Я там что-то слышал про шестилетний срок правления после 12-ого. Значит в 18-м. Хотя сомневаюсь, что что-то будет, они каждый день пиарятся в девятичасовых новостях. Зомбоящик делает свое дело.

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## Ramil

> Я там что-то слышал про шестилетний срок правления после 12-ого. Значит в 18-м. Хотя сомневаюсь, что что-то будет, они каждый день пиарятся в девятичасовых новостях. Зомбоящик делает свое дело.

 Не скажи, скоро поколение, которое его вообще не смотрит, достигнет совершеннолетия.

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## Crocodile

> Вспомните Ельцина в 1991.

 Ай, даарагой, лучше бы тебе Ельцина не приводить в пример. У него настоящая власть была на тот момент, как-никак президент РСФСР со своей годами проверенной командой. Да и оппозиционер он со стажем, конфликтовал с руководством на моей памяти аж с 87-го. Ибо Горбачёв разрешил "плюрализм". А у Батьки были все возможности всю организованную оппозицию покрушить. Что он, как я понимаю, и сделал основательно. Уверяю тебя, что Лёхе до его нынешнего места устраивали не только проверки на лояльность в виде предложений, от которых он не мог отказаться но и over 9000 других. Кадры решают всё. Всесильность гебни не нужна.

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## Ramil

> Уверяю тебя, что Лёхе до его нынешнего места устраивали не только проверки на лояльность в виде предложений, от которых он не мог отказаться но и over 9000 других. Кадры решают всё. Всесильность гебни не нужна.

 Не думаю, что в Белоруси прям уж такой "сталинский" подход к кадровому вопросу. К слову, и во времена Отца Народов находились подобные люди. Тухачевский, к примеру. Правда, закончилось плохо, но это политика.

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## bsod

Продажные люди есть всегда и везде  ::  
Забавное фото с воскресных мероприятий:

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## Crocodile

> Не думаю, что в Белоруси прям уж такой "сталинский" подход к кадровому вопросу.

 А почему, собственно нет? Был же, некто Саддам Хуссейн, и он, по его якобы утверждению, брал эту систему за основу для своей государственности. И ведь долго же держался на выбранной должности президента.    

> К слову, и во времена Отца Народов находились подобные люди. Тухачевский, к примеру.

 А вот с этого момента, можно, пожалуйста, поподробнее? Насколько мне известно, ситуация была с точностью наоборот.  ::

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## Hanna

This is very hard to form an opinion about.  
It still definitely seems to me like Lukashenko is supported by a great majority of the population for better or worse. The opposition needs to respect that. 
It's also without doubt that various foreign powers are meddling in the internal politics of Belarus when they should stay out. Working for the opposition is probably an excellent employment opportunity in Belarus...  
On the other hand, it seems Lukashenko keeps a bit too much of the Soviet approach to opposition and doesn't accept that is something he needs to live with, and something that is needed to keep control of what the government is doing... The picture of a security forces chasing after someone with a baton is a bit disturbing; the guy is already leaving so why chase him? Are they planning to beat him up because he showed up at the rally?  
I am wondering whether the people in the video that Basil77 posted, are typical of Belarussians in general, or if that is essentially the opposition movement in its entirety...

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## Ramil

> А вот с этого момента, можно, пожалуйста, поподробнее? Насколько мне известно, ситуация была с точностью наоборот.

 Ну какая "до наоборот". Тухачевского расстреляли за заговор против Сталина. И, что бы там ни говорили, -- заговор, таки, был. Рискнул и проиграл. А мог и выиграть. В политике всегда так...

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## bsod

> It still definitely seems to me like Lukashenko is supported by a great majority of the population for better or worse.

 It's not so true. You said that pensioners and agriculture workers votes for him. Major reason of this - it's a belarussian media: there are only 3 channel which people able to receive in countryside and of course all of them are government. So, of course pensioners think that Belarus is exactly such as it shown on TV (It shown really good  ::  ). They believe that Lukashenko - is a "Добрый Царь". But the distance between TV-Belarus and real Belarus increases more and more. And even most "закоренелые" pensioners begins to doubt. So, average payment of belarussian agriculture worker is ~200-300$ and average by all country <= $500. I think, it's a good reason for doubt.
Now I know a lot of people who voted Lukashenko at previous elections but not this. 
BTW. I joined this forum for learning English, politics and this elections it's only an actual theme for me right now (of course because of this elections) and I decided to start from it.
In this case I want to ask every to show me my spell mistakes (at least most rough) and help me fix them. If anyone needs my help with Russian - I'm always ready to help.

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## Hanna

Thanks for explaining. I understand that you joined the forum to learn English and not to talk about politics. I joined to learn Russian.. But I have posted too much here......  
So do you think that there was cheating when the votes were being counted, or do you think that the votes were counted honestly?

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## Crocodile

> Ну какая "до наоборот".

 Потому, что это как раз Сталин подготовил заговор против Троцкого и сверг его. Троцкий с самого начала революции был по своему положению в партии и правительстве выше Сталина. В политике всегда так ...  ::

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## bsod

Officially - there was no cheating and no violations. But you just need to see how it was  ::  
There are a lot of interest things to say but I'll try to show how it was in couple of words.
First interest thing - it's a "early voting" (досрочное голосование) - it's a several days before main elections when people votes voluntary-compulsory (добровольно-принудительно) i.e. you may not vote but if you are student, soldier, state employee or anybody other who depend governance - they'll tell you "you'll have a problems if you'll not vote early". For example, if you are student and you are living in hostel - you could be excluded (I've lived in hostel and I know this authentically). I don't say, what could be if you are soldier. 
But it's not important for who you'll vote, they need only your sign. During this several days ballot boxes protected only by one policeman and observers have access to them only in day. In the night they stay only with the policeman. Сontinuation think of by self. 
So, for election day ~30% electorate already have voted (easy to guess for who). But it's not all. The election day begins.  
It's an observers, they are using binoculars because they are really far from election process  ::   
and it's an election commission  ::  
and... 
Votes counting! (Something like this observer sees)  ::  
After this simple manipulations he have >= 80% votes. No cheating, no violations. 
BTW, people protested exactly against this "percents" (according to alternative exit-polls Lukashenko has only ~35%), but somebody have broken the door in the government house  ::

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## Hanna

Very interesting information! Thanks for explaining.  *Who (or what party) would you have preferred win, and why?*  
35% is still a lot though! They probably would win whether they cheat or not...  It depends on whether there is one opposing party (like in the USA) or many (like in most Western European countries).   _For example, while I was growing up in Sweden, the Social democrats always won the elections because 35-50% voted for them (approximately) in every election. And if they didn't get a large enough majority on their own, then they invited the communists to form government with them... Which was exactly what their opponents did not want. They were almost unbeatable and many people got very fed up with them. But the opposition could not agree enough to defeat them, and despite what some people thought, it was what they majority preferred._ 
It seems like if Lukashenko was to be beaten, then everybody who doesn't like him have to vote for just *one* other party... otherwise he'll just keep winning!  *Is there one party that could challenge him in the future? If so what is that party and what do they stand for?*

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## bsod

According our laws, if nobody got >= 50%+1vote, elections going into second round with only two candidates (1st and 2nd places). I don't think that he would win in second round.
We have a little bit strange situation with parties. We have several pro-government parties but nobody knows their names, their leaders or any other information about them (I mean that nobody talks about them in media. Media is totally filled by one person). Also we have several opposition parties but they haven't access to media at all (except BelSat (oppositional sat-channel, hosted in Poland, not translates through cable network)) => nearly nobody knows something about them (only who have affairs with politics or strongly interested). Also they haven't places in parliament. Sometimes they drops leaflets or organizes protest actions but rarely. So, only in election time people have ability to get some knowledge about political state. On this election out TV even showed every candidate twice (first time individual and second time on debates (without one of course)). 
So. On elections we have only two parties: "Lukashenko" and "Other candidates". On previous elections opposition promoted a single candidate - he found him in prison after election. On this - there was 9 candidates (except L), 5 of them now in prison.
Most "famous" party - it's BPF (Belorussian Popular Front), also we have BCD (Belorussian Christian Democracy), BSDP (Bel. Social-Democracy Party) and some other.
On this elections second place taken by Sannikov, third - by Rymaschevsky.
I think on next elections will be somebody new but if he will be the similar to the previous (by political power) - Lukashenko will be elected for the next time again... and then Nikolay Alyaksandravich Lukashenko will grown up...

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## bsod



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## Basil77

> It's not so true. You said that pensioners and agriculture workers votes for him. Major reason of this - it's a belarussian media: there are only 3 channel which people able to receive in countryside and of course all of them are government. So, of course pensioners think that Belarus is exactly such as it shown on TV (It shown really good  ). They believe that Lukashenko - is a "Добрый Царь". But the distance between TV-Belarus and real Belarus increases more and more. *And even most "закоренелые" pensioners begins to doubt*.

 I have to agree with that. My aunt who is rather old lady, but still works (she lives in Vitebsk and teaches students Latin and French at medical university) and always was a strong supporter of Lukashenko is started to doubt about him. She still voted for him at this elections, but just for the reason that "there is not any decent alternative", not because she is still great fan of him.

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## Eric C.

> Very interesting information! Thanks for explaining.  *Who (or what party) would you have preferred win, and why?*  
> 35% is still a lot though! They probably would win whether they cheat or not...  It depends on whether there is one opposing party (like in the USA) or many (like in most Western European countries).   _For example, while I was growing up in Sweden, the Social democrats always won the elections because 35-50% voted for them (approximately) in every election. And if they didn't get a large enough majority on their own, then they invited the communists to form government with them... Which was exactly what their opponents did not want. They were almost unbeatable and many people got very fed up with them. But the opposition could not agree enough to defeat them, and despite what some people thought, it was what they majority preferred._ 
> It seems like if Lukashenko was to be beaten, then everybody who doesn't like him have to vote for just *one* other party... otherwise he'll just keep winning!  *Is there one party that could challenge him in the future? If so what is that party and what do they stand for?*

 35% would simply have meant they would have to hold the second voting, and the other candidates (or at least some of them) could have united and created a coalition that would have beaten the dictator. 
I think anyone with common sense could challenge him. If you don't think so, you might not have seen all his brilliant speeches, and might not be completely realizing what his regime looks like.

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## Eric C.

> I have to agree with that. My aunt who is rather old lady, but still works (she lives in Vitebsk and teaches students Latin and French at medical university) and always was a strong supporter of Lukashenko is started to doubt about him. She still voted for him at this elections, but just for the reason that "there is not any decent alternative", not because she is still great fan of him.

 By the way, if "there is not any decent alternative", the choice is usually made in favor of "none of the above", or is not made at all - the election is just ignored.

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## Eric C.

> On this elections second place taken by Sannikov, third - by Rymaschevsky.

 And your one in charge declared that according to some official investigation no one of the asked had recognized Sannikov, and only 0.3% had recognized Nekliaev. ::

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## gRomoZeka

> By the way, if "there is not any decent alternative", the choice is usually made in favor of "none of the above", or is not made at all - the election is just ignored.

 Oh, rly? How smart. And who do you think will be a president if people vote for "none of the above"? Nobody? Or maybe the one who is now?
Voting for "nobody" or ignoring elections may seem like a good choice, but in fact it's just a lack of ability to use your vote wisely. And in the worst case scenario an "ignored" ballot may be used in falsification.

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## Eric C.

> Oh, rly? How smart. And who do you think will be a president if people vote for "none of the above"? Nobody? Or maybe the one who is now?
> Voting for "nobody" or ignoring elections may seem like a good choice, but in fact it's just a lack of ability to use your vote wisely. And in the worst case scenario an "ignored" ballot may be used in falsification.

 But votes for him are one hundred percent going to become his votes.  ::  
I'm not sure what exactly is going to happen in case of voting for "none of the above", but I thought ignoring the "election" was the best choice, as they need your signature or something anyway. And they just wouldn't have gotten material for falsification.

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## gRomoZeka

> But votes for him are one hundred percent going to become his votes.

 True.  :: 
But if some people, like Basil's aunt, believe that there are no better options it's their right to vote for the best available (Lukashenko). They choose him with their eyes open, so to speak.

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## Hanna

Very interesting to hear bsod's insights into the political situation in Belarus. 
The reason I seem like I "defended" Lukashenko was simply because I thought he was managing to protect people in Belarus from all the really terrible things that went on in Russia in the 1990s... For example when regular people were so desperate that they turned to prostitution, selling their personal property and memorabilia, gangster criminality... That is just so tragic and undignfied! And for what... so that a few people can cruise around in luxury cars and stuff away money in Switzerland and the IMF can say that "conditions conducive to a good investment climate have been created" (at the cost of human dignity)...   
I understand that there is a "middle class" in the large cities of Russia now... but there is still so much poverty and destitution in rural Russia, isn't that right? Same in Ukraine. I just can't support any politician who wants that to happen and I got the impression that Lukashenko's policies had prevented that, and that he was trying to introduce market reforms at a slower pace. That seemed sensible to me at least. But really, my understanding of all this is not that great...   

> Lukashenko will be elected for the next time again... and then Nikolay Alyaksandravich Lukashenko will grown up...

 Are you kidding?! Do people really think that would happen?   Surely people would not put up with that?!! It's outrageous.

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## Basil77

> The reason I seem like I "defended" Lukashenko was simply because I thought he was managing to protect people in Belarus from all the really terrible things that went on in Russia in the 1990s... For example when regular people were so desperate that they turned to prostitution, selling their personal property and memorabilia, gangster criminality... That is just so tragic and undignfied! And for what... so that a few people can cruise around in luxury cars and stuff away money in Switzerland and the IMF can say that "conditions conducive to a good investment climate have been created" (at the cost of human dignity)...  
> I understand that there is a "middle class" in the large cities of Russia now... but there is still so much poverty and destitution in rural Russia, isn't that right? Same in Ukraine. I just can't support any politician who wants that to happen and I got the impression that Lukashenko's policies had prevented that, and that he was trying to introduce market reforms at a slower pace. That seemed sensible to me at least. But really, my understanding of all this is not that great....

 That's funny but you've just repeated word-by-word what Alexander Prohanov said several hours ago at "Echo Moskvy" radio:  Радиостанция "Эхо Москвы" / Блоги / Видеорадио / "Особое мнение" Александра Проханова + кардиограмма эфира / Комментарии 
And btw, I agree with most of this, although I don't like Lukashenko at all.

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## Hanna

> That's funny but you've just repeated word-by-word what Alexander Prohanov said several hours ago at "Echo Moskvy" radio. And btw, I agree with most of this, although I don't like Lukashenko at all.

 I could only understand bits here and there of what Prohanov was saying and he's using a lot of "difficult" words...  
But as a general observation, it seems to_ ME_ that many things that happened in the early 1990s in the ex USSR was not generally in the interest of most people. Seems that Lukashenko was the only CIS leader who realised that and put the brakes on..  Whether what he did after that was right or wrong.. is the question. Perhaps he allowed the country to stagnate.  
I guess guess there_ WAS_ no easy solution, but the idea of "freedom" at the price of poverty, suffering and degradation for so many in society simply can't be what the majority would really have wanted! Doing the reforms slower might have prevented a lot of that.  
And look at the ex Soviet republics how things have worked out there... In Central Asia they certainly don't have any more democracy now, than under the USSR, but now they are also much poorer also have less opportunities to improve their lives.  
BBC makes pretty good and transparent surveys. Here is what they found in 2009, in the survey _"Twenty Years after Fall of Berlin Wall"_ (full survey with questions and methodology)Twenty Years after Fall of Berlin Wall   

> .....majorities would like their government to be more  active in owning or directly controlling their country’s major  industries in 15 of the 27 countries. This view is particularly widely  held in countries of the former Soviet states of Russia (77%), and  Ukraine (75%), but also Brazil (64%), Indonesia (65%), and France (57%).  Majorities support governments distributing  wealth more evenly in 22 of the 27 countries —on average two out of  three (67%) across all countries. In 17 of the 27 countries most want to  see government doing more to regulate business—on average 56%.   The poll also  asked about whether the breakup of the Soviet Union was a good thing or  not. (.....)   Among former  Warsaw Pact countries, most Russians (61%) and Ukrainians (54%) believe  the breakup of the Soviet Union was a bad thing.

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## Eric C.

> Are you kidding?! Do people really think that would happen?   Surely people would not put up with that?!! It's outrageous.

 If you turn your face to commie hell, you should be ready for all its features, not only for those you'd prefer to take out of it. 
And what makes you think there's no poverty or prostitution or criminal gangs there? When some people get paid around $80 - 100 a month, what is it called? I just don't wanna get myself disappointed finding out you're working for their official TV channels or so... tell me it's not true  ::  But then, I just fail to see what makes you see the things going on there through rose-colored spectacles...

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## Hanna

What people are paid is quite irrelevant, it is what they get for their money and the general standard and quality of living that is relevant.  
I am sure there is some prostitution and criminal gangs in the "commie hell" of Belarus...  but as far as I understand there has been less of that in Belarus than in Russia and Ukraine. It is certainly not something Belarus is known for outside it's own borders anyway. 
If Belarussians themselves think it's a good idea to go the same way as Russia, then that's their problem and none of my business. They are quite welcome to do it as far as I am concerned. But it _seems_ like the majority still vote for Lukashenko; people like Basil77s aunt.  
If there are problems with Lukeshenko, then frankly I think the Belarussians should sort that out themselves, without interference by the US, EU or Russia. They elected him, they should also  get rid of him if they don't like him anymore. It's nobody else's responsibility or business. Belarus isn't doing anything that is causing any problems for any other country. The main reason the US and others have a problem is that the market was never wide-open for exploitation like it was elsewhere in the former CIS and Eastern Europe.  
In case you didn't know (which seems likely...) power inherited within one family is certainly not what what any of the socialist or communist political philosophers supported. They would have been strongly against that.  
Now you can throw around a few more phrases like "commie hell" if you like but if you want to play cold war, I doubt you'll have much success here.

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## Basil77

Eric, have you ever been there, little hater? "Commie hell" is only in your wet dreams. "Socialist paradise" as say from my impressions  :: .

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## Eric C.

I, pace moderators, would like to get the thread back to the subject. 
People from Belarus, cast light on the issue, please. Are you really in ecstasies about your "socialist paradise"? Would you change anything about it? If so, what would you change?

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## sperk

European Parliament Panel Recommends Tougher EU Attitude Toward Minsk - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty   Белоруссию могут отлучить от Олимпийских игр и чемпионатов по футболу

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## Dmitry Khomichuk

Hi, people. I live in Brest. I want to write some words about elections in our country, previous, current, and as it looks like - next.
I know nothing about candidates. How are they? What is their policy? What have they already done for the country? How they want to rule the country without understanding of situation, skills and practice?
They always scrumbles out from somewhere before elections, and hiding after it. If they are real opposition, why do they do nothing? Они хотят стать президентом не слезая с печи.
And I should notice that may be this situation is usual in Western Countries, when prime-minister or president is a signboard of certain group of people, who has the same political course. But in our country president is the person who decide everything, others are just advicers. 
Thanks for reading this, and correct my mistakes please.

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## Eric C.

> Hi people. I live in Brest. I want to write some words about elections in our country, the previous, current, and as it seems - the next one.
> I know nothing about the candidates. Who are they? What is their policy? What have they already done for the country? How are they going to rule the country without understanding of the situation, skills and practice? They have always shown up from somewhere before each election, and hidden after it. If they are real opposition, why have they been doing nothing? 
> And I should note that maybe this situation is common in the Western Europe(probably), when a prime-minister or president is a representative of some group of people who have the same political views. But in our country the president is the person who decides everything, the others are just advisers.

 So, what's your point here? Do you think the country needs stronger opposition? Or are you just satisfied with your Shklow wise man?

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## Dmitry Khomichuk

I think the country should have several groups with their own understanding of Belarus future. But they should (I don't know how to say it in English) болеть сердцем за страну.
But current situation is following: stable goverment and some groups of clowns. And nothing more.

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## Eric C.

> I think the country should have several groups with their own understanding of Belarus future. But they should (I don't know how to say it in English) болеть сердцем за страну.
> But current situation is following: stable goverment and some groups of clowns. And nothing more.

 As for the expression, I guess it will be "their hearts should ache for the country". 
As for the current situation, I think clowns can be found on both sides. Like "a stable group of clowns vs unstable one". (btw, have a think about who created the last group)

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## belarusnews

> Does anyone have friends or family there who have a view on this? What do they think?  
> I have had a chance to read up about Belarus now, and I really think there is a lot of BS floating about in Western media.  I don't think it is as bad as some media make out.   *The elections there ARE fair according to EU observers.* However hard they look they cannot find any proof of ballot stuffing or any type of coercion regarding the voting. The participation is about the same as Britain, about 60% 
> The problem is that the majority of Belarussians are voting for the "wrong" party/candidate, namely Lukashenko, a socialist who will not open up the country for all-out market capitalism that many powers in the West would support.  *
> Solution? Claim that the elections were rigged* and spread catchy one-liners such as "Last dictatorship in Europe".  *
> They probably DO have many problems and bad practices* going on there, that should be stopped. But that's another story. If Belarussians prefer socialism/social democracy and think that Lukashenko is OK, so what?   
> Also Lukashenko's party has refused to implement IMF recommendations of selling off public assets, reducing pensions, wages and state subsidies (which would mean plunging half of the population at least, into poverty).  
> They keep voting for him because they don't want the political chaos of Ukraine, or the poverty of rural Russia. That makes perfect sense, at least to me. As it is now, they have decent free healthcare and good free universities and everyone can afford to live, buy food and clothes. Most families have a car and a computer. The country is clean and orderly. Many have a car and computer.  
> Freedom of press is an subjective term but Belarus has privately owned media, including oppositional newspaper that critisize the government. Apparently they have banned printing of some anti-government papers in Belarus itself, so it is printed in the Baltics and imported.  
> The "disappeared" people apparently largely left the country and can be found in London, Moscow, Paris etc. So they "disappered" from Belarus but not from the face of the earth. If they have any genuine political prisoners (I can't find anything when I google it) then I think they should release them.  *
> ...

 1. OSCE didn’t recognise the result of these “elections” as legitimate 
2. Some Belarusians keep voting for Lukashenko because they are compelled to do so. Yes, elderly population doesn't have the access to the Internet and they believe every word of belarusian state TV channels. There are also a lot of people who work in the state sector of economy and they are forced to vote for Lukashenko and they vote because they are afraid of losing their jobs.  
3. By the way, Lukashenko always raise salaries and introduces benefits for some time (e.g. free public transport for students and pupils) just before the election. Actually students, pupils and pensioner have NO social benefits in Belarus. Lukashenko tries to please people before the elections. But after the elections everything becomes worse again.  
4. Those who serve in the army or in the police force don't have their own choice and have to vote as their commanders tell them to do.  
5. rural Russia lives much better than rural Belarus. At least, in Russia and in Ukraine you may start up your business with no problem. In Belarus, everything belongs to the state.  
6. "The "disappeared" people apparently largely left the country and can be found in London, Moscow, Paris etc. "    - TELL THIS TO THE MOTHER, WIFE AND SON OF ANDREY ZAVADSKI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Some years ago the wifes, mothers and children of the "disappeared" people often gathered in the center of Minsk and stayed in silence for an hour or two keeping the photos of their "disappeared" sons, husbands and fathers..... Now the police doesn't allow them to do so.  
7. The US and Soros sponsor the Belarusian opposition. But where can the opposition find money if they lost their jobs just because they are "enemies of the regime".  
8. I'm also not sure that Belarus would be better without Lukashenko but why are we always afraid of any change???!! WE NEED CHANGES!    If you are interested, watch the video about the elections 2010 and everything after it, there are subtitles in English

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## belarusnews

> Hi, people. I live in Brest. I want to write some words about elections in our country, previous, current, and as it looks like - next.
> I know nothing about candidates. How are they? What is their policy? What have they already done for the country? How they want to rule the country without understanding of situation, skills and practice?
> They always scrumbles out from somewhere before elections, and hiding after it. If they are real opposition, why do they do nothing? Они хотят стать президентом не слезая с печи.
> And I should notice that may be this situation is usual in Western Countries, when prime-minister or president is a signboard of certain group of people, who has the same political course. But in our country president is the person who decide everything, others are just advicers. 
> Thanks for reading this, and correct my mistakes please.

 Those who want to find the information about the candidates, find it easily in the web. As for me, a saw a lot of people in the streets agitating the citizens to vote for this or that candidate. Lukashenko has no skills how to rule the country! The president is not an expert in economics and business. He just listens to the advisers and decides what to do. There were some good candidates in 2010 who could successfully replace Lukashenko.

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## BappaBa

> 2. Some Belarusians keep voting for Lukashenko because they are compelled to do so.

 Всегда хотел узнать как "заставляльщики" проверяют, чтобы их не обманули? Заставляют рабов ставить галочку не в кабинке, а под их присмотром?

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## Eric C.

> Всегда хотел узнать как "заставляльщики" проверяют чтобы их не обманули? Заставляют рабов ставить галочку не в кабинке, а под их присмотром?

 I guess it was about the so-called "early voting" when each vote doesn't matter and goes to the "wise man" anyway...

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## belarusnews

> I guess it was about the so-called "early voting" when each vote doesn't matter and goes to the "wise man" anyway...

 Yes, you are right. There are groups of people at state enterprises that agitate their collegues to vote earlier. If they disagree, they can loose their jobs.

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## belarusnews

> If somebody credible from Belarus comes here and says his life is a living hell because of Lukashenko's policies and gives some concrete examples, then I'll happily change my mind.

 Oh, it’s me. When I was a student I was interrogated several times by the KGB agents because I went to the “Human rights” conference in Belgium. They asked me for the information about the other participants who were the members of different Belarusian political parties. I didn’t tell them anything. Then the agents blamed me of being linked with FBI and threatened to expel me from the University. I showed no reaction but I was really shocked. Fortunately, I graduated from the University.  
After the University I have to work for a state company which is going bankrupt. My salary is $ 200 and it’s too low even in Belarus. But I can’t quit this job because of the so-called “career assignment” that obliges me to work for a state enterprise for 2 years earning $ 200 per month. If I don’t follow the rules I’ll pay a fee (as much as $ 10 000). This is because I got free higher education. I entered the University with better grades than the others and I passed the entrance exams better. I deserved free higher education. Why should I work for the state company like a slave in order to compensate it?

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## belarusnews

> Does anybody genuinely doubt that Lukashenko got the majority of the votes, I don't! 
> If I was a pensioner, agriculture worker or state employee in Belarus I'd definitely vote for him to continue to have a stable lifestyle and some money coming in. Wouldn't you?

 And if you had a son or a daughter for whom there's no good future in Belarus? What would you do?

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## belarusnews

> I, pace moderators, would like to get the thread back to the subject. 
> People from Belarus, cast light on the issue, please. Are you really in ecstasies about your "socialist paradise"? Would you change anything about it? If so, what would you change?

 Oh, yes! Judging by what i wrote above, the situation in Belarus drives me into ecstasies )))))))

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## Romik

> I deserved free higher education.

 Oh, you deserved! Just so! Do you mind if some don't give a sh!t what you deserved? You know, there are a lot of countries (and wealthy ones as well) where there is no such a thing - free higher education. The kids there don't deserve it?      

> Why should I work for the state company like a slave in order to compensate it?

 I assume there was an option to have paid studying, if so, why didn't you take it? Things have to be paid, FYI. Work off your study and do whatever you want. 
Of course that things like disappearing people are atrocious and I don't really know what's going on there but I don't know where's your "living in hell".

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## belarusnews

> Oh, you deserved! Just so! Do you mind if some don't give a sh!t what you deserved? You know, there are a lot of countries (and wealthy ones as well) where there is no such a thing - free higher education. The kids there don't deserve it?    
> I assume there was an option to have paid studying, if so, why didn't you take it? Things have to be paid, FYI. Work off your study and do whatever you want. 
> Of course that things like disappearing people are atrocious and I don't really know what's going on there but I don't know where's your "living in hell".

 
I also don't give a sh!t what you desrve. If you think that free higher education in Belarus is a great advantage, you are mistaken. The government don't give a sh!t to students and graduates sending them to villages for "career assignment". You can have a great career if you move to a village from the capital city, can't you? LOL!  
Everybody deserves free higher education. But you don't understent that FREE means "without any payment or other kinds of compensation". According to the Constitution of Belarus "everyone has a right for free higher education". "Career assignment" is a violation of the Constitution and everybody's rights for FREE education.

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## Eric C.

> You know, there are a lot of countries (and wealthy ones as well) where there is no such a thing - free higher education.

 Like Belarus. But their regime for some reason is boasting of providing anyone who wishes with free higher education while it's a total lie. So maybe you will be so kind to name this reason?

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## Romik

> You can have a great career if you move to a village from the capital city, can't you? LOL!

 What can impede you to move back after those 2 years to the capital and do your career? It's not a very long period of time. Do you think, right after the university, without experience, you would be offered the most prestigious jobs?     

> Everybody deserves free higher education. But you don't understent that FREE means "without any payment or other kinds of compensation". According to the Constitution of Belarus "everyone has a right for free higher education". "Career assignment" is a violation of the Constitution and everybody's rights for FREE education.

 You are a commy, aren't you? In the UK, USA the education is paid and they don't demand it to be free.

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## belarusnews

> Like Belarus. But their regime for some reason is boasting of providing anyone who wishes with free higher education while it's a total lie. So maybe you will be so kind to name this reason?

 I see 2 reasons for this:
1. To stop youth from going abroad (brain-drain)
2. The state companies that are going bankrupt need young labor force. So the government forces graduates to work there. The state enterprises (plants, factories etc.) are financially supported by goverment (actually by the taxpayers). If they close large plants (even those that don't bring any profit) a lot of elderly people will lose their jobs and there will be a chaos. So they continue to support unprofitable state companies.    
Among the workers of belarusian state plants and factories there are a lot of people who are over 50 (I think 70 - 80 %). But there are very few young specialists. 
Another interesting thing:
If you graduated from Pedagogical University, for example, you'll have to work at a school in a village and, perhaps, in Chernobyl area because nobody wants to work there. But a lot of people still live there and they need to be educated.

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## Romik

> Like Belarus. But their regime for some reason is boasting of providing anyone who wishes with free higher education while it's a total lie. So maybe you will be so kind to name this reason?

 Do you read their constitution and other rules? I don't. If telling only of the thing itself - I don't think it's unfair to work off that 2 years after unpaid study (I suppose there is some scholarship while it, isn't it?)

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## belarusnews

> Do you read their constitution and other rules? I don't. If telling only of the thing itself - I don't think it's unfair to work off that 2 years after unpaid study (I suppose there is some scholarship while it, isn't it?)

 So what? If you are a diligent student and get good marks at the exams why not to get a scholarship? By the way, the average scholarship in Belarus is about $40. You may not have the scholarship if you get bad marks, but anyway you'll have to pay the same fee ($10 000 approximately) if you won't work off. Is it fair?

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## Crocodile

> You are a commy, aren't you? In the UK, USA the education is paid and they don't demand it to be free.

 The thing is that almost all some of the western universities provide a lot of scholarships to those who study well. So much so that in practice you only have to pay (partially) for your bachelor degree. The master's and ph.d. are in fact free (and you're usually left with some extra money as well). Without any kind of allusion to the "commie" ideology. Indeed, it might make sense for the government to pay for your education if you agree to take on the government job for two years or something like that. However, that situation should not be officially titled the *Free Education* *(TM)* as the government gathers tremendous political dividends from that title while, as it turns out, requires their fee in just another way.

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## Eric C.

> ...However, that situation should not be officially titled the *Free Education* *(TM)* as the government gathers tremendous political dividends from that title while, as it turns out, requires their fee in just another way.

 Exactly right.

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## Romik

> The thing is that almost all some of the western universities provide a lot of scholarships to those who study well. So much so that in practice you only have to pay (partially) for your bachelor degree.

 To a few nerds in a particular university, and not always completely covering their study costs.  

> The master's and ph.d. are in fact free (and you're usually left with some extra money as well).

 They already work. You forgot to tell about academicians, never mind.   

> However, that situation should not be officially titled the Free Education (TM) as the government gathers tremendous political dividends from that title while, as it turns out, requires their fee in just another way.

 The word "бесплатный" literally is "unpaid", if you passed the entering contest, worked off 2 years you don't pay. The higher education is not mandatory there.

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## belarusnews

> To a few nerds in a particular university, and not always completely covering their study costs. 
> They already work. You forgot to tell about academicians, never mind.  
> The word "бесплатный" literally is "unpaid", if you passed the entering contest, worked off 2 years you don't pay. The higher education is not mandatory there.

 There are very few students in Belarus who want to pass their career assignment after the university. The majority is against but they have to.  
It's quite possible to find a job after the university if you're not a looser. It's better to gain experience and earn money than to work like a slave almost for nothing, isn't it? 
Career assignment in Belarus is a forced labour. It's not the same as in the USA.  
You are the only person here who supports lukashenko's ideology concerning education. Don't forget that the topic is presidential elections in Belarus and not education (neither in Belarus nor in the USA).

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## Dmitry Khomichuk

And what is the problem? Find the job, and work there 2 years.

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## Romik

> There are very few students in Belarus who want to pass their career assignment after the university. The majority is against but they have to.

 There are a lot of graduates in Russia having difficulties to find desired jobs. Situation can be: "no experience -> no job"  - "no job -> no experience".   

> It's quite possible to find a job after the university if you're not a looser. It's better to gain experience and earn money than to work like a slave almost for nothing, isn't it?
> Career assignment in Belarus is a forced labour.

 To work like a slave almost for nothing people have for example in Russian army. You was not forced to take on the state-financed higher education.   

> You are the only person here who supports lukashenko's ideology concerning education.

 Why:  

> Indeed, it might make sense for the government to pay for your education if you agree to take on the government job for two years or something like that.

 He seems just was discontented with some terminology.  ::

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## belarusnews

> There are a lot of graduates in Russia having difficulties to find desired jobs. Situation can be: "no experience -> no job"  - "no job -> no experience".  
> To work like a slave almost for nothing people have for example in Russian army. You was not forced to take on the state-financed higher education.  
> Why: 
> He seems just was discontented with some terminology.

 
I think it's better to remember the topic. Those who want to discuss education can create their own thread...
There is no point of discussing educational problems in Belarus now.

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## belarusnews

Look what's happening: massive arrests, pursuit of journalists, media war...The outcome of the elections in Belarus and that's only the beginning.

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## Eric C.

> Look what's happening: massive arrests, pursuit of journalists, media war...The outcome of the elections in Belarus and that's only the beginning.

 Btw, how many people who were then at the square have already been detained? I've heard of approximately 1,000, and I've also heard that the authorities are going to detain each single person who showed up near that square in the evening of 12/19/2010...  That's as terrible as ridiculous and absolutely awful...

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## Crocodile

> To a few nerds in a particular university, and not always completely covering their study costs.

 I think I mentioned earlier it's the pass for those who study well. It seems belarusnews was the one who "entered the University with better grades than the others". If you want to call him a nerd it's your right I guess, but had he studied in a western university he would have gotten a better attention "than the others" depending on his grades. Those, who graduate well and start their masters (which aren't just the typical nerds, but that is more or less what makes the difference between a university degree (институтское образование) and a college degree (образование техникума). Those who start their master's are typically assigned a nominal job (like grading a course homeworks) which usually takes two-three hours a week and completely covers for their tuition fee. Very reasonable, I guess, comparing to a two-year low-paid job. In addition, they might be assigned the TA's job which takes more effort, but pays well. The process is started by taking a student load from  a bank on a reasonable terms. The scolarships irregularly contribute something in between. As I said, in the end, once the master's is complete, a good student is left with an ultimately free high education, good grades, and a relatively brighter future. All that with not a minor hint to a communist ideology to say the least. That was my entire point. A free/unpaid/no money/no fee/etc. (whatever term you like the best, it doesn't really change a matter of things).  ::

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## Romik

> Those, who graduate well and start their masters (which aren't just the typical nerds, but that is more or less what makes the difference between a university degree (институтское образование) and a college degree (образование техникума).

  You seems muddle some things. Before masters - bachelors is not like "образование техникума". It does not make the difference that way. 
"college degree" - what you understand upon it? As I know there are different colleges out there - ones that give higher education and community ones that give professional education.

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## belarusnews

> Btw, how many people who were then at the square have already been detained? I've heard of approximately 1,000, and I've also heard that the authorities are going to detain each single person who showed up near that square in the evening of 12/19/2010...  That's as terrible as ridiculous and absolutely awful...

 Here you can see the list of the detained people 
I think a lot more than 1000 people were detained. There were actually no space for the detained people in belarusian prisons.  
Most of them were released on December 29, 2010. But their lives are broken, I think. They'll have to pay a large fine and won't find a good job in the country.

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## belarusnews

Belarusian television revealed the names of the provocateurs who broke the doors of the Government Building during the protests following the presidential election

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## Crocodile

> You seems muddle some things. Before masters - bachelors is not like "образование техникума". It does not make the difference that way. 
> "college degree" - what you understand upon it? As I know there are different colleges out there - ones that give higher education and community ones that give professional education.

  According to Знак о получении среднего профессионального образования (технического техникума) (з373) college and техникум are very close in a kind of education they provide. It's 3-4 years of a post-high-school kind of education that is named a bachelor degree. Среднее [специальное] образование. No muddling. That kind of education is not free in the western countries for an average student. There are scholarships which help, but they do not cover for the entire tuition fee. The master's university degree is equivalent to высшее образование (5-6 years of the university) and is *de facto* free for all the full-time master's students (yes, you have to pay for it by grading the other students' assignments working and hour or two a week, but I think that practically means free; haven't heard anyone complaining). Also, the university provides additional jobs (be it the teaching or the research) to almost all full-time master's students. That job is usually not very time-demanding and is very useful to the students, so it's just a kind of another course the students have to take. That helps to *completely pay off* the student loan the students had to take once they started their first year of bachelor. I call that a *practically free high education for those who study well*. The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy which includes the planned number of the specialists every year. Those students do not pay for their education since everything belongs to the state. Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. Be it a 120р. or $200 or $5000. That money can only buy the personal property (like fifty pairs of gloves, for example). Not a private property. The places to live are also distributed by the government the way they see fit. So, the kind of education you earned would probably correlate with a kind of job you're doing but much less with the quality of life you enjoy. That is a communist ideology and its relationship with the [free] education. Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling.   ::

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## Romik

> According to Знак о получении среднего профессионального образования (технического техникума) (з373) college and техникум are very close in a kind of education they provide. It's 3-4 years of a post-high-school kind of education that is named a bachelor degree. Среднее [специальное] образование. No muddling. That kind of education is not free in the western countries for an average student. There are scholarships which help, but they do not cover for the entire tuition fee. The master's university degree is equivalent to высшее образование (5-6 years of the university) and is *de facto* free for all the full-time master's students (yes, you have to pay for it by grading the other students' assignments working and hour or two a week, but I think that practically means free; haven't heard anyone complaining). Also, the university provides additional jobs (be it the teaching or the research) to almost all full-time master's students. That job is usually not very time-demanding and is very useful to the students, so it's just a kind of another course the students have to take. That helps to *completely pay off* the student loan the students had to take once they started their first year of bachelor. I call that a *practically free high education for those who study well*. The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy which includes the planned number of the specialists every year. Those students do not pay for their education since everything belongs to the state. Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. Be it a 120р. or $200 or $5000. That money can only buy the personal property (like fifty pairs of gloves, for example). Not a private property. The places to live are also distributed by the government the way they see fit. So, the kind of education you earned would probably correlate with a kind of job you're doing but much less with the quality of life you enjoy. That is a communist ideology and its relationship with the [free] education. Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling.

  I'll provide some citations:  

> *Higher education* in the United States and Canada specifically refers to post-secondary institutions that offer Associate's degrees, *Bachelor's degrees*, Master's degrees, Education Specialist (Ed.S.) degrees or Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D.) degrees, or their equivalents, and also higher professional degrees in areas such as medicine, dentistry, the law, optometry, etc.

  

> In the United States and Ireland, "college" and "university" are loosely interchangeable

  

> *Бакалавриат* в России — первый уровень *высшего образования*, который является базовым и длится 4 года.

  

> Диплом «бакалавра» дает выпускнику право при трудоустройстве занимать те должности, которые предусматривают наличие высшего образования в соответствии с их квалификационными требованиями.

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## Crocodile

> I'll provide some citations:

  I will too:  

> *Коммунизм* - есть *Советская власть* плюс электрификация всей страны.

   ::  
belarusnews, how many years have you studied after the high school?

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## Basil77

Belarus Accuses Poland, Germany of Takeover Plot | HeraldTribune.com

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## Romik

Капитализм - колбаса без мяса.  ::

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## Crocodile

> Капитализм - колбаса без мяса.

  There is a much better quote:  

> Одним бублик, другим - дырку от бублика. Это и есть демократическая республика.

 I wonder how what you said about the meat and the sausage fits into our previous discussion. The same way as your previous quotes?  ::

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## Crocodile

> Belarus Accuses Poland, Germany of Takeover Plot | HeraldTribune.com

  No, it obviously was the US again.  ::  This time though the US was successful enough to make it seem like Poland and Germany contemplated the takeover. Obviously.  ::

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## Romik

> I wonder how what you said about the meat and the sausage fits into our previous discussion. The same way as your previous quotes?

 Do you think my quotes were not enough to your "no muddling"? At all do you like sausage in Canada?  ::

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## gRomoZeka

> The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy... [...] Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. [...] Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling.

 Sorry, but there _is_ a little bit of muddling.  :: 
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

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## Crocodile

> Sorry, but there _is_ a little bit of muddling. 
> You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

  I agree, they were. That's what I think I said: the state was the only employer. So, if a janitor wanted to clean the public washrooms on the north side of the street or on the south side of the street, that was a choice available to him or her. However, the janitor would get the same salary established by the state regardless how clean those washrooms were. And the janitors would live in a place provided by the state when and where the state would see fit. So, when it comes to the education, it made sense for the state to cover the education cost for a rocket scientist and make those scientists work for 120 rubles a month for the rest of their lives regardless of what they were actually doing and how they performed. So, the whole point I was trying to make was that it's the communist propaganda that's muddling and makes it seem like the free education they provide is part of the state *care* for their people. I was trying to explain why I think it's a lie in a big picture. And back to the topic, the Belorussian government declares a free education (бесплатное образование) whilst, in fact, it doesn't provide it for free. But, in the meantime, they make it seem like they care about the young generation and that the education is their priority (or something like that). So, when a simple Belorussian is looking around and asking:  
- Why am I living worse than a similar average citizen of Poland? 
- Ah, but it's the whole package that matters. There's no free education in Poland, for example, but it's free in Belorussia to the good students. 
- Ok, I see. The education is important for my kids too. Hope, they will be able to become engineers some day and provide good living for my grandchildren. 
So, I was trying to say it's a lie, that's all. No muddling.  ::

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## Crocodile

> Do you think my quotes were not enough to your "no muddling"? At all do you like sausage in Canada?

  From the education in the US and the UK to the sausage in Canada. Практически "из Москвы - в Нагасаки, из Нью-Йорка - на Марс!"  :: 
My congrats, you would do a fair politician.  :: 
All I tried to say was a very simple thing. Our dear belorussianews would probably get a comparable education in the US and the UK without paying a dime by the time it's complete. In quite reverse to your allusion with the commies. Why it was so difficult for you to understand what I said? Why to start the casuistry of "free vs unpaid" terms or eluding to the vaguely-defined terms of college degree? Come on! I'm just a simple-minded crocodile, you don't need to be that clever with me.  ::  
PS. I buy the sausage mostly in Russian grocery stores, but that sausage is produced locally. It's just the Russian stores know how to make the right choice for me. For some reason, you can't find those sausages in the supermarkets. Tastes differ, I guess.  ::

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## belarusnews

> I will too:  
> belarusnews, how many years have you studied after the high school?

 Not all the universities in Belarus have the following system: Bachelors degree (4 years), master's (6 years).  
The majority of universities provide 5-year studies and the graduates are called "young specialists". 
After school I studied 5 years at the University.

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## belarusnews

> Sorry, but there _is_ a little bit of muddling. 
> You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

 Yeah, some teachers come to a village and work there in a library ))) By the way, will you choose to work in Chernobyl area?

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## Crocodile

> After school I studied 5 years at the University.

 That's exactly what I thought. So, your education is roughly comparable to the master's degree.

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## gRomoZeka

> Yeah, some teachers come to a village and work there in a library ))) By the way, will you choose to work in Chernobyl area?

 So? What it has to do with state monopoly? Some people in any country and in any economy have cr@ppy jobs, and some don't have any. This is life. I don't see anything particularly horrible in working as a village librarian either. I almost moved to a village myself at one point of life.  ::  
What about Chernobyl zone - isn't it closed and out of limits? Or are you talking about people who service some technical stuff that is left there? I would not choose it, since my interests lay in another area, but if I'd get a good offer, I'd think about it.

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## Eric C.

> So? What it has to do with state monopoly? Some people in any country and in any economy have cr@ppy jobs, and some don't have any. This is life. I don't see anything particularly horrible in working as a village librarian either. I almost moved to a village myself at one point of life.  
> What about Chernobyl zone - isn't it closed and out of limits? Or are you talking about people who service some technical stuff that is left there? I would not choose it, since my interests lay in another area, but if I'd get a good offer, I'd think about it.

 Maybe you haven't grasped the exact point, but it's not just about having "cr@ppy" jobs, it's about FORCING everyone (who gets the so-called "free education") to have them. 
And, belarusnews, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this practice of placing on jobs was abolished in Belarus right after the collapse of USSR and reenacted in 1998.

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## gRomoZeka

> Maybe you haven't grasped the exact point, but it's not just about having "cr@ppy" jobs, it's about FORCING everyone (who gets the so-called "free education") to have them.

 Maybe it's you who haven't grasped my exact point. I don't consider all state jobs cr@ppy solely because they are state jobs. You people think for some reason that if the job is not provided by a private company it automatically makes a person an unhappy and repressed individual. I do not agree. So half of your arguments do not work for me.

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## Hanna

I got a completely free education (didn't pay for it). Including a top boarding school (practically free) and 4 years of university (including a monthly stipend to live off).  
I would have thought it reasonable if the state had asked me to take on an assignment in a designated role for a couple of years after that. In fact, it's a good way for new graduates to get experience without having to apply for jobs on the open market. I don't see a problem with this at all.  
In my case, I promptly left the country that sponsored my education.... and became a contributor to the British economy and a tax payer there! Pretty bad, but I didn't consider that, at the time.

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## gRomoZeka

> And, belarusnews, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this practice of placing on jobs was abolished in Belarus right after the collapse of USSR and reenacted in 1998.

 If a state would give an opportunity either to pay for education and not to be placed on the state job, OR to get free education and be placed on the state job for some time - would you consider it an improvement?

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## Eric C.

> Maybe it's you who haven't grasped my exact point. I don't consider all state jobs cr@ppy solely because they are state jobs. You people think for some reason that if the job is not provided by a private company it automatically makes a person an unhappy and repressed individual. I do not agree. So half of your arguments do not work for me.

 If the jobs were just "provided", I would even consider that an advantage in some way... but FORCING someone to take a certain job (whatever sector of economy it belongs to) is unacceptable; if a person is satisfied with his/her placement, it's "half the trouble", but if not - it's just like kindof slavery...

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## Eric C.

> If a state would give an opportunity either to pay for education and not to be placed on the state job, OR to get free education and be placed on the state job for some time - would you consider it an improvement?

 I do not actually care about what kind of job a person gets. What matters is his/her actual free will to take that job and start working. What about improvements... if the state either starts providing everyone (passed certain tests or whatever) with real free education (without payments or compulsory working off afterwards) OR removes this fake form of free education and stops declaring it has free education of any kind, I would consider that an improvement...

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## Romik

> If the jobs were just "provided", I would even consider that an advantage in some way... but FORCING someone to take a certain job (whatever sector of economy it belongs to) is unacceptable; if a person is satisfied with his/her placement, it's "half the trouble", but if not - it's just like kindof slavery...

 Where is forcing? If a person is unsatisfied with the placement they just pay the compensation and work wherever they want. If you break a contract you shall compensate it, shan't you?

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## Hanna

I don't think any of us who don't live in Belarus need to tell the forum members from there what is good or bad in their country! 
I am sure they are already well aware of that.  
But personally I wish everyone there the best - And that doesn't necessarily involve 10 years of crazy cowboy capitalism like Russia and Ukraine had. Unless the Belarussians themselves (without external influence) decide that this is a price is worth paying in order to pave the way for a future market economy.  
And I am not sure that any EU countries that allow "torture flights" to Guantamo, participate in the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns and export "execution drugs" to the US....   need to lecture Belarus about human rights. I am very irritated that it doesn't seem to be possible for any media to mention the word Belarus without immediately starting to talk about "dictatorship" and "human rights abuse". 
I am sure there is some truth to the allegations. But there is clearly a smear campaign going on.

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## Eric C.

> I am very irritated that it doesn't seem to be possible for any media to mention the word Belarus without immediately starting to talk about "dictatorship" and "human rights abuse".

 That sounds like you've been living there and know for sure what's going on. 
To my mind, if there's just one person who lives there and confirms that human rights violation's taking place, that can be trusted.

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## BappaBa

Александр Рыгорич Лукашенка дает интервью "Вашингтон Пост" http://static.video.yandex.ru/lite/m...0fhxg2bt.3118/ 
=)
Президент вызывает к себе генералов.
– Сколько у Лукашенко дивизий?
– 4  дивизии, Дмитрий Анатольевич!
– Немного. У нас не возникнут проблемы, даже  если он пойдет на Москву.
– Боимся, что возникнут, Дмитрий Анатольевич: если  Лукашенко пойдет на Москву, то к Москве подойдут уже сорок дивизий.
(с)

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## Eric C.

> Александр Рыгорич Лукашенка дает интервью "Вашингтон Пост" http://static.video.yandex.ru/lite/m...0fhxg2bt.3118/ 
> =)
> Президент вызывает к себе генералов.
> – Сколько у Лукашенко дивизий?
> – 4  дивизии, Дмитрий Анатольевич!
> – Немного. У нас не возникнут проблемы, даже  если он пойдет на Москву.
> – Боимся, что возникнут, Дмитрий Анатольевич: если  Лукашенко пойдет на Москву, то к Москве подойдут уже сорок дивизий.
> (с)

 So, do I get it right, the Russian people are ready to take that "wise father" upon themselves to help the people of Belarus get rid of him? I think it's quite noble. Keep on!

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## bsod

немного запоздало, но все же
Белорусская деревня: TUT.BY | НОВОСТИ - Хроника исчезающей деревни: Марс 10 лет спустя - Калейдоскоп - 10.04.2011, 08:00

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## ladoga

I suppose that unlovely lassie in Hanna's video would prefer the constitution to be amended to allow Lukashenko to be made president for life like some banana republic African dictator, then they could save themselves the expense of having elections at all!  Who do you think are the likely culprits for the Minsk metro bomb?

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## Lampada

YouTube - 13 апреля. День траура в Минске 
Мои соболезнования всем пострадавшим.

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## Marcus

> Who do you think are the likely culprits for the Minsk metro bomb?

 Western special services, probably American or British. They want to punish Belarus for the alliance with Russia.

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## Lampada

> Western special services, probably American or British. They want to punish Belarus for the alliance with Russia.

 Ну шо на это можно сказать? Только одно: глухо как в танке.
Да, и отношения между Белоруссией и Россией сразу повредились.

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## Eric C.

> Western special services, probably American or British. They want to punish Belarus for the alliance with Russia.

 Wow, go on dude! You're just a unique kind of person! I always look forward to seeing your posts on such subjects! 
( I usually add smilies in such posts, but here it's actually not funny, people were killed after all... )

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## Ramil

Вспоминается Доренко: "Казалось бы, при чём здесь Лужков..."

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## BappaBa

Хоть кто-нибудь из капи принес соболезнования белорусам?

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## sperk

Телекомпания НТВ. Официальный сайт | Новости НТВ | Адвокаты Санникова обжалуют приговор
"...приговор он давно подписал себе сам, когда решил баллотироваться в президенты. Если ты решился изменить жизнь нашего народа, изменить жизнь нашей страны, значит, тебе прямая дорога в тюрьму." 
Жаль...

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## Eric C.

> Телекомпания НТВ. Официальный сайт | Новости НТВ | Адвокаты Санникова обжалуют приговор
> "...приговор он давно подписал себе сам, когда решил баллотироваться в президенты. Если ты решился изменить жизнь нашего народа, изменить жизнь нашей страны, значит, тебе прямая дорога в тюрьму." 
> Жаль...

 He just ran for president... what a terrible crime... =(((

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## mishau_

Сейчас новость прочитал.  *Ажиотаж в Белоруссии: жители сметают продукты с прилавков* 
Всю прошедшую неделю многие жители республики не столько работали,  сколько метались по магазинам в поисках чего бы еще купить. Они покупали  все, что еще не успело подорожать или подорожало, но пока не очень  сильно. Под ажиотажный спрос попали соль, уксус и макароны. Десятками  бутылок закупались спиртные напитки, моющие средства, пустели отделы  с норковыми шубами. Дефицитным товаром стали холодильники, стиральные  машины, пылесосы, современные телевизоры, утюги, электрочайники, мебель  и украшения из золота. 
бла-бла-бла http://news.mail.ru/politics/5956968/?frommail=1

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## sperk

Hanna, can you buy anything to eat? ::

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## Hanna

> Hanna, can you buy anything to eat?

 Yeah, definitely - there is plenty... See my travel blog.  *Actually, basically everything that's being written about Belarus in the English speaking press is a load of tosh. 
It's just not true*. This is not a dictatorship or an "outpost of tyranny", "axis of evil" or anything of the sort. Nobody looks or behaves like they are oppressed or scared of the police or state or anything else. I've met several people who critisized the government, and several who praised it. I think it's unfair on the people of Belarus to belittle their political choices and to impose sanctions which no doubt impact only regular people, not the leadership anyway. The politics of Belarus is the Belarussians problem, and nobody else's.  
It is not communist or even very socialist, and it's not very much like the USSR apart from some legacy stuff.* It has a unique character* though, which I am trying to explain in my travel blog. It's well worth a visit because of this unique character and also because it's simply *a very interesting, pleasant and charming* country in lots of different ways. People are great. The most annoying thing is that there is a lot of bureacracy.   *Whether the democracy is up to closer scrutiny* or not, I couldn't really say - there probably is merit to some of the criticism. 
But frankly I think that the majority DOES support the current leadership and they have done a very good job in lots of areas, so it's not surprising. Perhaps Belarus could invite the EU to actually organise the election next time, according to the existing budget for elections.  
I don't think Eastern Europeans in general, and particularly people in the ex USSR are massively hung up about "democracy" according to the Western model. I think they are more interested in a government that produces results - such as stability, prosperity and good living conditions - perhaps they are prepared to pay a small price in marginally less political freedom for that.  
If the current .by leadership mess up badly enough, then the people will probably eventually kick them out. There is plenty of external support for the opposition, I just don't think there is a critical mass of people inside of Belarus supporting the opposition right now. But if the devaluation problem gets any worse, that might change. I think the people in Minsk are generally more pro West than the rest of the country. 
In the building where I am staying, somebody has put up an EU sticker with the word "Belarus" inside the stars, similar to the stickers for EU member states. Someone else has then tried to erase the word Belarus from the sticker.  
But yeah, everything you need is available - though NOT to the very specialised level you'd get in a big city Western Europe, and not top-end stuff. But that's nothing special for Belarus though, it's the same in lots of countries. There is no visible crime at all, couldn't be safer.... No beggars, super-clean everywhere, the majority of buildings have been recently renovated or are well maintained. People are nice, friendly and helpful and you can feel completely safe.

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## mishau_

Надеюсь, Минск не был так уничтожен, как Москва (в смысле исторического облика).

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## BappaBa

1942 год, немецкая кинохроника.

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## Seraph

> *Actually, basically everything that's being written about Belarus in the English speaking press is a load of tosh. 
> It's just not true*.

 Maybe some of these boys have been hard at work trying to shape opinions....Another precious waste of tax payers' money. Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media | Technology | The Guardian The need to protect the internet from 'astroturfing' grows ever more urgent | George Monbiot | Environment | guardian.co.uk Washington's Blog
I think that maybe some of them have been on the MR forums too.

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## sperk

> *Actually, basically everything that's being written about Belarus in the English speaking press is a load of tosh. 
> It's just not true*.

 and in the Russian press too, at least that's what Lukashenko thinks - "Most of hysteria is produced by the Russian mass media." Telegraf.by | Lukashenko Ordered to Close Foreign Media in Belarus

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## Hanna

> Maybe some of these boys have been hard at work trying to shape opinions.... Revealed: US spy operation that manipulates social media | Technology | The Guardian The need to protect the internet from 'astroturfing' grows ever more urgent | George Monbiot | Environment | guardian.co.uk Washington's Blog
> I think that maybe some of them have been on the MR forums too.

 Wow, I had no idea that was happening! How super-creepy! 
Please read the Guardian article at the very least.  
And who's doing it, if not the US military and multinational corporation. 
It's propaganda at the creepiest possible level.....  
Can you really get a bot to act like a human and participate in debates?  
Apparently these "fake" users have a full online "persona" with email address, facebook account, and unique IP address in the city they are supposed to be living in.  
Occassionally the odd person on this forum appears so truly brainwashed that it's hard to believe they are for real. Unfortunately I think they are... 
And following from the BBC article that Seraph links to: In my childhood, the US carried out some psy-ops in Sweden. Basically they did things that upset the public, and made out that it was being done by the USSR, to make people scared of the USSR. It gradually started working. However in the early 00s it was revealed, using modern science, that these things were done by the US, and not the USSR. I just couldn't believe it, but there the evidence was completely clear. It's just absolutely disgusting to be subjected to such manipulation.    

> Perhaps the most startling aspect of the roadmap is its acknowledgement  that information put out as part of the military's psychological  operations, or Psyops, is finding its way onto the computer and  television screens of ordinary Americans. 
>  "Information intended for foreign audiences, including public diplomacy  and Psyops, is increasingly consumed by our domestic audience," it  reads.  
>  "Psyops messages will often be replayed by the news media for much  larger audiences, including the American public," it goes on.  
>  The document's authors acknowledge that American news media should not  unwittingly broadcast military propaganda.  "Specific boundaries should  be established," they write. But they don't seem to explain how. 
>  "In this day and age it is impossible to prevent stories that are fed  abroad as part of psychological operations propaganda from blowing back  into the United States - even though they were directed abroad," says  Kristin Adair of the National Security Archive.

 Translation: The bullshit lies and propaganda that we spread in faraway countries to suit our purposes must be prevented from being picked up by our own national media. 
This makes me wonder if I can trust ANYTHING I read in any media. If even bloggers and people can be faked, not to mention the news you get in newspapers and on TV because they are simply too outrageous.

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## Hanna

> 1942 год, немецкая кинохроника.

  What, is that Minsk? Awful!  
I think it's really sweet how Minsk has been rebuilt to be a truly elegant city... 
I mean, most of the public buildings are very impressive. There are parks everywhere and the domestic houses in central Minsk are very pleasant. 
Everything fits together, in harmony. 
I guess city planners in the USSR got together and said "let's rebuild Minsk for these poor people, and make it really nice". 
It's touching in a way.  
If you look at British or German cities that were destroyed in the war, they are always EXTREMELY ugly - cheap 1950s houses, just thrown together with no esthetics. In Minsk, it's been carefully planned to look good.

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## Eric C.

> And who's doing it, if not the US military and multinational corporation.

 Well, let's think. The authorities of the country you're now in? I wouldn't be any surprised...

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## Seraph

> Wow, I had no idea that was happening! How super-creepy!

  It gets worse. Washington's Blog

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## Hanna

> Well, let's think. The authorities of the country you're now in? I wouldn't be any surprised...

 Hardly! 
Belarus is incredibly bad at promoting itself abroad, and tweaking public opinion in other countries. Its attempts at promoting its views seem almost naive, and in addition the Belarussian government is not playing the diplomatic game with the EU at all; it seems they've given up 
The tourist information available is also not slick, enough said about all this. 
Of course, in MY view, all of that makes the country more likeable.  
But if you look at Belarus from a Western/Anglosaxon market driven perspective, what they need is: 
1) A kickass good PR agency
2) A top class spin doctor
3) SEO optimization of Belarus based sites
4) If you are going to be a bit black-hat, then a team of top class hackers..  
and much, much more.  
It's evident that a lot of what they are doing in terms of politics and promoting the country (tourism) is just a modern-day extension of what the USSR did in those areas. This model of tourism and PR is outdated today, at least if you look at the matter from a "Western" perspective.   *Compare the reality of Belarus*: "There is nothing particularly  sinister going on here, people are super nice and the country looks very  well kept everywhere." *...with the myth about Belarus*: "This is an oppressive dictatorship where everybody is super poor, there is corruption and everything is falling to pieces. "  *The average European believes that the USA is a much better country  than it really is, and that Belarus is a worse country than it really  is.  So who has the better propaganda?!* 
Per the US state department's information page about Belarus (which is the FIRST hit on Google) it says that the KGB comes into peoples hotel rooms and check their bags when they are out... Police regularly stop people on the street and ask for documentation. People are sometimes prevented from leaving the country, including foreigners, the risk for theft is very high because people are so poor ETC, ETC!  None of this has turned out to be true.   
If you take the USA on the other hand, the sophistication with which it promotes itself and conducts these "psy-ops" operations is fantastic. 
The way they manipulate public opinion not only in their own country but across the world is unmatched, ever! 
You have commercials, films, papers, NGOs, Psy-ops and lately now internet operations to push their view. 
Most people don't even realise that they're being affected by it.  *And Eric C.* After all this, I have an eerie feeling that I should perhaps show you a captcha.... 
And why are you saying "I wouldn't be ANY surprised" what kind of funny English is that? Several times you have written like a non-native speaker of English. What's up with that? Are you American as everyone assumes, or some other nationality?

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## Eric C.

> *And Eric C.* After all this, I have an eerie feeling that I should perhaps show you a captcha.... 
> And why are you saying "I wouldn't be ANY surprised" what kind of funny English is that? Several times you have written like a non-native speaker of English. What's up with that? Are you American as everyone assumes, or some other nationality?

 Oh no! Did I just screw up the whole thing revealing myself? I'm a bad robot, I let down my creator!  ::  
It seems to me, Hanna, that in your childhood some commies seriously affected your view on many things. Do you know who else thinks of a person whose opinion is different as a bot, and equates "I assume" to "everyone assumes"?

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## Hanna

> Oh no! Did I just screw up the whole thing revealing myself? I'm a bad robot, I let down my creator!  
> It seems to me, Hanna, that in your childhood some commies seriously affected your view on many things. Do you know who else thinks of a person whose opinion is different as a bot, and equates "I assume" to "everyone assumes"?

 Ok I think this comment proves that you are "probably" not a bot... we shall see  ::  
No "commies" affected my views in my childhood, the only thing that's different was that I wasn't under the influence of quite as much junk culture and conservative indoctrination as the average American, so therefore I developed the ability to view other cultures and countries from a neutral perspective instead of labelling them according to the latest "axis of evil" list.  
And as an adult who's been truly ensnared in capitalism, in one of its global hubs for the last 10 years, I am am just letting off some steam by thinking of what a good world we would have if some of the ideals of socialism could be implemented. That is not exactly extreme, half of Europe has the same opinion. Being AGAINST imperalism and exploitation doesn't automatically make a person a "commie" there are many nuances on that scale.

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## Eric C.

> Per the US state department's information page about Belarus (which is the FIRST hit on Google) it says that the KGB comes into peoples hotel rooms and check their bags when they are out... Police regularly stop people on the street and ask for documentation. People are sometimes prevented from leaving the country, including foreigners, the risk for theft is very high because people are so poor ETC, ETC! None of this has turned out to be true.

 How can you know that isn't true? Just because it hasn't happened to you? But I told you, exploring a country as a tourist doesn't give you a detail view on such things. I have a couple of friends there, and they all have been telling me since the middle of 1990s they live in a great country which happens to be so (no, it would be like sOOO)  unlucky with its authorities. And when you hear anything bad about that country in mass media, is it so hard to think for a bit and realize it's all about the oppressive regime, not about the people and the country itself? I don't know what else to say, please WhiteKnight, bsod, whoever living there, tell us something on the issue... do you like everything about the way the things are done in your country? (I once asked something like that, but I guess that needs to be shown up once more...). And is everything that appears in the foreign media about situation in your country always completely wrong? What could you confirm and what would you call a lie or misinformation from what Hanna has written about the country (that had been taken from mass media)?

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## mishau_

О, нашел.  YouTube - &#x202a;Рекорды луканомики. Поддон сахара - 1 минута 20 секунд&#x202c;&rlm;

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## Eric C.

> О, нашел.  YouTube - &#x202a;Рекорды луканомики. Поддон сахара - 1 минута 20 секунд&#x202c;&rlm;

 I saw loads of movies like that. I just wonder how those who support the way the economy is done there could explain why the people are trying to get rid of their local currency in whatever way they just can - buying up goods in stores, foreign currencies in banks, etc.

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## Hanna

Well I haven't seen any such scenes at all and I have been in the supermarket, the market place and shopping centres quite a fair bit.  
I spoke with a really nice woman today when I was at Dududtki, a handicraft village. 
She had been a chief economist there, but had retired (at age 55!!!) She gave me the VIP tour of the village, will write about that later. 
But later we talked a bit about finances (she started it!!) and she said that her pension was 150 USD per month, but had got a new job despite being past pension age, which paid 800 USD per month. If I understood correctly, her rent was 80 USD per month. No luxury on that salary, but as long as you stay in Belarus and keep it  basic, it should be possible to manage on that. She said she was disappointed at the currency devalution but she definitely did not want a revolution. She was actually a Russian, from somewhere in the Urals, but she is now a Belarussian citizen and she thought that Belarus is a better country to live in than Russia, based on her impressions from her annual trip to Russia to see family.   

> How can you know that isn't true? Just because it  hasn't happened to you? But I told you, exploring a country as a tourist  doesn't give you a detail view on such things.

 That is true, but the difference is, I have visited and you haven't. I  think you should wait to jump to any conclusions. And remember that the  people YOU speak with, are precisely the ones that are the most likely  to be fed up with the current government. I.e. young well-educated  people in Minsk. However they are not in the majority of the population.

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