# Forum Learning Russian Language Pronunciation, Speech & Accent  щ and шь

## jz12

What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?

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## TATY

> What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?

 Ш is always hard, so the Ь after it are obsolete. 
шь = ш 
Щ is always soft but I'm not sure if it is exactly just a soft Ш.

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## Spiderkat

> ...
> Щ is always soft but I'm not sure if it is exactly just a soft Ш.

 I would say it sounds kinda like a long ш, and soft like you said.

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## TATY

The thing is different people say it is different things. I've seen three different IPA symbols used for it.

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## Lampada

Щ = шч

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## jz12

шя=ща
ша=щя ? 
ешь=еш? 
when I hear the pronunciation of щ I don't hear a combination of шч even it is often transcribed as 'shch'.

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## TATY

> Щ = шч

 That is a lie. 
In Ukrainian it is. In Russian. Not at all. 
шя sounds like ша
ше sounds like шэ
ши sounds like шы
шё sounds like шо
шю sounds like шу 
ща sounds like щя
щэ sounds like ще
щы sounds like щи
що sounds like щё
щу sounds like щю 
Ш and Щ are different letters.

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## Murmur

so other than one being hard and one being soft, what is the difference?i've seen it described as shch or shsh. what is it really supposed to be?

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## Lampada

> Originally Posted by Lampada  Щ = шч   That is a lie.
> ....

   ::    Меня не шокирует твоё чувство юмора.  
Но всё равно щ = шч.  :P 
Может, кто-нибудь сделает запись?

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## Lampada

В слове "рощица" хорошо слышно "шч".  http://www.1001skazka.nsk.su/deti/music ... 03cd07.mp3 
КОШКИ-МЫШКИ. 
В. Приходько 
Гр. Гладков  
Пешком шагали Мышки по узенькой дорожке 
От деревушки Пешки до деревушки Ложки, 
А в деревушке Ложки у них устали ножки - 
Обратно в Пешки Мышки поехали на Кошке.  
Если Кошке с Мышкой по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти? 
Если Кошке с Мышкой по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти?  
И пели до порожка, и щелкали орешки 
От деревушки Ложки до деревушки Пешки. 
Пешком идти не близко, когда идешь обратно, 
А на пушистой киске и мягко и приятно.  
Если Кошке с Мышкой по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти? 
Если Кошке с Мышкой по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти?  
То рощица, то поле, то с горки, то на горку. 
Ах, нужно каждой Мышке попасть в родную норку. 
И что не говорите, дорогу знают Кошки 
От деревушки Пешки до деревушки Ложки.  
Если Кошке с Мышкой по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти? 
Если Кошке с Мышкой по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти?  
Если нам с тобою по пути, 
Отчего ж тогда не подвезти?

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## Lampada

Ещё два "щ":  http://www.1001skazka.nsk.su/deti/poem/ ... ov/syr.mp3  *Ворона и лисица.* 
Басня И. А. Крылова 
Читает Анатолий Папанов.  
Уж сколько раз твердили миру, 
Что лесть гнусна, вредна; но только все не впрок, 
И в сердце льстец всегда отыщет уголок. 
___  
Вороне где-то бог послал кусочек сыру; 
На ель Ворона взгромоздясь, 
Позавтракать было совсем уж собралась, 
Да призадумалась, а сыр во рту держала. 
На ту беду Лиса близехонько бежала; 
Вдруг сырный дух Лису остановил: 
Лисица видит сыр, Лисицу сыр пленил. 
Плутовка к дереву на цыпочках подходит; 
Вертит хвостом, с Вороны глаз не сводит 
И говорит так сладко, чуть дыша: 
"Голубушка, как хороша! 
Ну что за шейка, что за глазки! 
Рассказывать, так, право, сказки! 
Какие перушки! какой носок! 
И, верно, ангельский быть должен голосок! 
Спой, светик, не стыдись! Что, ежели, сестрица, 
При красоте такой и петь ты мастерица,- 
Ведь ты б у нас была царь-птица!" 
Вещуньина с похвал вскружилась голова, 
От радости в зобу дыханье сперло,- 
И на приветливы Лисицыны слова 
Ворона каркнула во все воронье горло: 
Сыр выпал - с ним была плутовка такова.

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## Lampada

Тут семь "щ":                          ::    http://vysotsky.russian.ru/songs/m3u.php?play=67005 
Песня о вещем Олеге  
Как ныне сбирается вещий Олег Щита прибивать на ворота,
Как вдруг подбегает к нему человек 
И ну шепелявить чего-то. 
"Эх, князь, — говорит ни с того ни с сего, —
Ведь примешь ты смерть от коня своего!" 
Ну только собрался идти он на вы —
Отмщать неразумным хазарам,
Как вдруг прибежали седые волхвы,
К тому же разя перегаром. 
И говорят ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего. 
"Да кто ж вы такие, откуда взялись?! —
Дружина взялась за нагайки. —
Напился, старик, так иди похмелись,
И неча рассказывать байки 
И говорить ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!" 
Ну, в общем, они не сносили голов —
Шутить не могите с князьями! 
И долго дружина топтала волхвов
Своими гнедыми конями: 
Ишь, говорят ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего! 
А вещий Олег свою линию гнул,
Да так, что никто и не пикнул.
Он только однажды волхвов помянул,
И то саркастически хмыкнул: 
Ну надо ж болтать ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего! 
"А вот он, мой конь, — на века опочил, 
Один только череп остался!.."
Олег преспокойно стопу возложил —
И тут же на месте скончался: 
Злая гадюка кусила его —
И принял он смерть от коня своего. 
...Каждый волхвов покарать норовит, 
А нет бы — послушаться, правда?
Олег бы послушал — ещё один щит
Прибил бы к вратам Цареграда. 
Волхвы-то сказали с того и с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!

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## translationsnmru

> Тут семь "щ":                            http://vysotsky.russian.ru/songs/m3u.php?play=67005

 And none of them sounds like "шч". 
"щ=шч" is a myth invented by lazy teachers who teach Russian to lazy students.

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## TATY

Yes, as a student who is learning Russian and Ukrainian, I can tell you Ukrainian Щ does sound like ШЧ, the sounds in Russian is different. 
Basically Ч or english ch is a combo of [t] and  (*ship*), this is shown by its IPA symbol which is the symbol for [t] joined to  the symbol for [sh] giving  - this is the IPA symbol for the ch in *ch*air. Similarly, the voiced counterpart of ch is *J*ames, which is a combo of [d] and [zh] 
[d] being the voiced counterpart of [t]
[zh] being the voiced counterpart of [sh] 
In Russian we see this as Дж as in Джугашвили. 
So Russian Ч can be written ТШ ( I know it is soft, but that doesn't matter for this exmaple)  
So back to Щ if it did indeed ШЧ that means it is something like ШТШ (it must contain a [t] sound in it)(again, I Щ is soft and штш would be hard) and if you listen to it, there is no break in the sybilant sound.  
And if you look at how phoneticians describe Щ they do it differently from Ukrainian Щ. 
It reprents the consonant  or  in Russian.  or  in Ukrainian. 
As you can see, the Ukrainian IPA rendering gives [sh] + [ch]
Russian gives either [sh][sh], or [sh]ь[sh]ь.  
And to conclude, here is a recording of Ukrainian Щ which you will clearly here as ШЧ and also hear how it is completely different from Russian Щ. http://lab.chass.utoronto.ca/slavic/Ukr ... 8/shch.wav

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## Zaya

Не по теме: _Меня_ не шокирует твоё чувство юмора. 
"Может" отделяется запятыми, но тема пунктуации здесь не в почёте, да и сама я грешу отсутствием запятых частенько)) 
А по теме...
Слышали бы вы, как в украинском произносится "щ", про русский бы после этого не говорили, что это два звука (ш+ч).   ::  
Аудиоматериалы мне, к сожалению, недоступны. 
Придётся доставать школьную тетрадку по русскому языку, чтобы вспомнить, какой же должна быть транскрипция слов с "щ".   ::

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## Lampada

> Не по теме: _Меня_ не шокирует твоё чувство юмора. 
> "Может" отделяется запятыми, но тема пунктуации здесь не в почёте, да и сама я грешу отсутствием запятых частенько))
> А по теме...
> Слышали бы вы, как в украинском произносится "щ", про русский бы после этого не говорили, что это два звука (ш+ч).   
> Аудиоматериалы мне, к сожалению, недоступны.
> Придётся доставать школьную тетрадку по русскому языку, чтобы вспомнить, какой же должна быть транскрипция слов с "щ".

 Спасибо за поправку.   ::   Сначала написала "Мне нравится твоё чувство юмора", потом передумала, но "мне" там так и осталось.  
Исправлю, пожалуй, и пунктуацию выше. Спасибо.   ::  
А по теме...  Я продолжаю слышать _шч_ в *щ*.  Но что с меня возьмешь:  я с Украины.     ::

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## Боб Уайтман

Historically, the Russian Щ is coming from the ШЧ combination indeed. It explains the fact why it is still transliterated this way in all the western languages, compare: ЩУКА in English would be transliterated as SHCHUKA, in French as CHTCHUKA, in Polish as SZCZUKA, in German as SCHTSCHUKA etc. 
But later, the pronunciation of the Russian Щ really changed. The most of modern Russian speakers really pronounce it as a long soft Ш nowdays, i.e. Щ = ШЬШЬ. But the pronunciation may vary depending on a dialect or even on individual speech characteristics. 
So, some Russian speakers may still continue pronouncing it as ШЧ. 
IMHO.

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## HA

я родился и вырос в Москве. Когда я произношу Ш, мой язык расслаблен, и воздух шипит между зубами. Когда я произношу Щ, мой язык напряжён, и воздух шипит между кончиком языка и нёбом. Я не произношу шч, мой звук Щ одинаков на всём протяжении шипения.

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## Leof

да, это верно!
Только, произнося Ш, мы издаём Шшипение
а произнося Щ издаём Щщипение   ::

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## Боб Уайтман

> да, это верно!
> Только, произнося Ш, мы издаём Шшипение
> а произнося Щ издаём Щщипение

 Nice! 
But this explains nothing to the learners of Russian. 
I just wanted to tell that maybe 90% of native speakers (or even more) nowadays pronounce Щ as a long palatalized Ш. But the remaining part still continues pronouncing ШЧ, I've heard it myself. Although that does not sound naturally in modern Russian, and as for me, I wouldn't recommend that pronunciation. Probably it is a dialect version.

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## Zovars

Щ никогда не произносится как шч. 
В словах в типа "вещий", "отыщет" Щ произносится скорее как [вещ-щий], [отыщ-щет], но никак не ШЧ.
Насколько я знаю, непереводимые русские слова и фамилии, содержащие Щ пишутся на английском через SHCH. Например:
Щи - Shchi
Тищенко (фамилия) - Tishchenko.
Однако это вовсе НЕ значит, что русские произносят их как шч. Просто shch это наиболее подходящие латинские буквы чтобы передать этот звук для носителей английского языка. В немецком, например, вообще используется 7 букв (schtsch) вместо одной русской Щ.
  Звук щ однородный и произносится как очень мягкое щ, примерно так, как описал в своем посте НА.
Мягкий знак после буквы Ш не смягчает звук ш, а используется для других целей. В частности, чтобы определить род существительных. 
ШЬ звучит точно также как Ш, но это не значит, что слова, которые пишутся через ШЬ можно писать через Ш.

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## igorfa100

> What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?

 for one I don't think you'll find many words with "шь" in them in Russian, this combination is rather rare, I, for one, can't really think of a single one off the top of my head (maybe my spelling ain't that good though). But if I were to read "щ" and "шь" in isolation, which I just did incidentally, they'd come out exactly the same (and they just did too), so don't sweat over it, there's no real difference pronounciationwise and you just might  ignore those who tell you otherwise. (I'm not being entirely serious here, just wanted to end this comment with a little rhyme)

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## Lampada

http://vysotsky.russian.ru/songs/m3u.php?play=67005 
Как ныне сбирается ве*щ*ий Олег *Щ*ита прибивать на ворота,
Как вдруг подбегает к нему человек 
И ну шепелявить чего-то. 
"Эх, князь, — говорит ни с того ни с сего, —
Ведь примешь ты смерть от коня своего!" 
Ну только собрался идти он на вы —
Отм*щ*ать неразумным хазарам,
Как вдруг прибежали седые волхвы,
К тому же разя перегаром. 
И говорят ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего. 
"Да кто ж вы такие, откуда взялись?! —
Дружина взялась за нагайки. —
Напился, старик, так иди похмелись,
И неча рассказывать байки 
И говорить ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!" 
Ну, в об*щ*ем, они не сносили голов —
Шутить не могите с князьями! 
И долго дружина топтала волхвов
Своими гнедыми конями: 
Ишь, говорят ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего! 
А ве*щ*ий Олег свою линию гнул,
Да так, что никто и не пикнул.
Он только однажды волхвов помянул,
И то саркастически хмыкнул: 
Ну надо ж болтать ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего! 
"А вот он, мой конь, — на века опочил, 
Один только череп остался!.."
Олег преспокойно стопу возложил —
И тут же на месте скончался: 
Злая гадюка кусила его —
И принял он смерть от коня своего. 
...Каждый волхвов покарать норовит, 
А нет бы — послушаться, правда?
Олег бы послушал — ещё один *щ*ит
Прибил бы к вратам Цареграда. 
Волхвы-то сказали с того и с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!

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## Боб Уайтман

> Originally Posted by jz12  What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?   for one I don't think you'll find many words with "шь" in them in Russian, this combination is rather rare, I, for one, can't really think of a single one off the top of my head (maybe my spelling ain't that good though).

 Rather rare? Let's see:
-All the Russian verbs in 2-nd person singular:
 читаешь (_you read_), пишешь (_you write_), думаешь (_you think_), спишь (_you sleep_), носишь (_you carry_), живёшь (_you live_), ...
-A lot of feminine nouns like мышь (_mouse_), вошь (_louse_), брошь (_brooch_), тишь (_silence, calm_), ...
-Some particles and adverbs as лишь (_only_), наотмашь (used in _бить наотмашь_),
-Sometimes ь after ш is used as a separation sign, as in forms of the verb шить (_to sew_): шью, шьёшь, шьёт etc. 
Enough examples, though...   

> But if I were to read "щ" and "шь" in isolation, which I just did incidentally, they'd come out exactly the same (and they just did too), so don't sweat over it, there's no real difference pronounciationwise and you just might  ignore those who tell you otherwise. (I'm not being entirely serious here, just wanted to end this comment with a little rhyme)

 In pronunciation *there is no difference* between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
But *there is a difference* between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by igorfa100        Originally Posted by jz12  What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?   for one I don't think you'll find many words with "шь" in them in Russian, this combination is rather rare, I, for one, can't really think of a single one off the top of my head (maybe my spelling ain't that good though).   Rather rare? Let's see:
> -All the Russian verbs in 2-nd person singular:
>  читаешь (_you read_), пишешь (_you write_), думаешь (_you think_), спишь (_you sleep_), носишь (_you carry_), живёшь (_you live_), ...
> -A lot of feminine nouns like мышь (_mouse_), вошь (_louse_), брошь (_brooch_), тишь (_silence, calm_), ...
> -Some particles and adverbs as лишь (_only_), наотмашь (used in _бить наотмашь_),
> -Sometimes ь after ш is used as a separation sign, as in forms of the verb шить (_to sew_): шью, шьёшь, шьёт etc. 
> Enough examples, though...        Originally Posted by igorfa100  But if I were to read "щ" and "шь" in isolation, which I just did incidentally, they'd come out exactly the same (and they just did too), so don't sweat over it, there's no real difference pronounciationwise and you just might  ignore those who tell you otherwise. (I'm not being entirely serious here, just wanted to end this comment with a little rhyme)   In pronunciation *there is no difference* between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
> But *there is a difference* between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

 Exactly.  *Igorfa100*, are you a native Russian speaker? If not you shouldn't be dishing out such incorrect advice.

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## igorfa100

> Rather rare? Let's see:
> -All the Russian verbs in 2-nd person singular:
>  читаешь (_you read_), пишешь (_you write_), думаешь (_you think_), спишь (_you sleep_), носишь (_you carry_), живёшь (_you live_), ...
> -A lot of feminine nouns like мышь (_mouse_), вошь (_louse_), брошь (_brooch_), тишь (_silence, calm_), ...
> -Some particles and adverbs as лишь (_only_), наотмашь (used in _бить наотмашь_),
> -Sometimes ь after ш is used as a separation sign, as in forms of the verb шить (_to sew_): шью, шьёшь, шьёт etc. 
> Enough examples, though...

 you mean those, in the final position it seems the ь doesn't affect the pronounciation of the preceding ш in any way whatsover so that носишь and носишь are pronounced exactly the same. In my previous post I was referring rather to the pronounication of a soft ш in principle and in priciple a soft ш in Russian is indicated with a щ which is mighty different from the way Ukrainian say щ as was already pointed out int his thread. so in final positions after ш the ь is to be ingnored as if it wasn't there. I think it's some sort of a traditional spelling that managed to escape the communist spelling purges of the early 1920's (before that there was a whole bunch of letters half of which were either totally silent or prounounced exactly the same as some other letters so those spelling purges were a good thing imho) 
 now as a separation sign  I'd say before ш it can be replaced with the ъ with little effect on the pronounciation, at least this applies to the area that I'm from (Smolensk) 
  Bottom line - in real words ш always remains "hard" so that in words like шьеш it's not the preceding ш that gets affected by the ь but rather the е that follows which in this case is pronounced the same as when you read the alphabet out loud.    

> Igorfa100, are you a native Russian speaker? If not you shouldn't be dishing out such incorrect advice.

  Yes, I am a native speaker of Russian and my previous post was an observation rather than advice, as I indicated there I simply tried to say шь and щ out loud and found that when I did, they sounded the same. I also pointed out that I was pronouncing them in isolation and yes I clean forgot about all those verb forms ending in шь because honestly when I'm typing in Russian (I haven't had to write in over 8 years) I simply omit those ь's altogether, letting the spellchekcer take care of them.

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## igorfa100

> In pronunciation *there is no difference* between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
> But *there is a difference* between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

 didn't see this one the first time around. you hit the nail on the head, spot on etc. the conclusion is that ш always remains ш in Russian. if there ever was any variance in pronounciation between ш and  шь it sure seems to have died out centuries ago. guess your post pretty much wraps up the whole thread.

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман  
> In pronunciation *there is no difference* between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
> But *there is a difference* between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.   didn't see this one the first time around. you hit the nail on the head, spot on etc. the conclusion is that ш always remains ш in Russian. if there ever was any variance in pronounciation between ш and  шь it sure seems to have died out centuries ago. guess your post pretty much wraps up the whole thread.

 
Basically Ш is one of the consonants that is never palatalised in Russian, therefore: 
шя sounds like ша
ше sounds like шэ
шю sounds like шу
шё sounds like шо
ши sounds like шы
шь sounds like ш  
On the otherhand Щ is ALWAYS palatalised in Russian, therefore: 
ща - щя
щэ - ще
щу - щю
що - щё
щы - щи 
I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form. 
That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"  ::

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## Leof

Ну вашще!!  :: 
You all guys are such linguists! Where only do you find all that stuff!!?
YOU ALL SHOULD TEACH RUSSIAN!!

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## HA

> I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form. 
> That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"

 Well, to me, a native Russian speaker, there is a huge difference. 
Russian spelling is quite close to pronunciation - basically you can read printed unknown words and 
you'll be easily understood over the phone, with relatively few exceptions.  
English is quite different - you can pronounce "read" in 2 ways depending on the context.
There no rule how to pronounce cow, row, now, bow, tow...
etc. etc. 
As the time goes by, Russian pronunciation may drift away from spelling, which is synchronized from time to time. 
So, because the letter "ь" in "шь" is spelled but never pronounced, it may be viewed by many as an unnecessary complication.
On the other hand, "th" is at least always pronounced - but you cannot tell how by spelling only.

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by TATY  I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form. 
> That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"    Well, to me, a native Russian speaker, there is a huge difference. 
> Russian spelling is quite close to pronunciation - basically you can read printed unknown words and 
> you'll be easily understood over the phone, with relatively few exceptions.  
> English is quite different - you can pronounce "read" in 2 ways depending on the context.
> There no rule how to pronounce cow, row, now, bow, tow...
> etc. etc. 
> As the time goes by, Russian pronunciation may drift away from spelling, which is synchronized from time to time. 
> So, because the letter "ь" in "шь" is spelled but never pronounced, it may be viewed by many as an unnecessary complication.
> On the other hand, "th" is at least always pronounced - but you cannot tell how by spelling only.

 You didn't get my point. All I why saying was 'th' is a common combination of letters in English, like шь is a common combination of letters in Russian.

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## HA

you did not get my point either, that's cultural differences for you. Most Russians feel that spelling should more or less match pronunciation, to the the point of adding new letters and removing obsolete ones.
That's what's wrong with "шь": it's an impossible combination of sounds, although a common 
combination of letters. 
That's why your analogy, which I understood the first time all right, did not feel right to me. You compared an unpronounceable combination of letters to a pronounceable one, which might be all the same
to you, but not to me.

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## chaika

When you say [sh] in a word like "she" your tongue is toward the front of your mouth. When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth. The sound is "darker". Say "she" and repeat it, pullling your tongue further back into the mouth. You may need to widen the opening of the mouth as you do this. 
Maybe some Russian could put up an audiofile of защищающиеся or защищаешь!
защищаю - каша
шуп or щупать 
or compare the words щит and *шит. (masc. short form passive, imperfective unfortunately)

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## HA

> When you say [sh] in a word like "she" your tongue is toward the front of your mouth. When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth.

 definitely not mine

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## Rtyom

Just trust the Truth! 
Otherwise you don't speak correctly.

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by chaika  When you say [sh] in a word like "she" your tongue is toward the front of your mouth. When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth.   definitely not mine

 This is true. English Sh is not the same as Russian Ш.

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## TATY

> you did not get my point either, that's cultural differences for you. Most Russians feel that spelling should more or less match pronunciation, to the the point of adding new letters and removing obsolete ones.
> That's what's wrong with "шь": it's an impossible combination of sounds, although a common 
> combination of letters. 
> That's why your analogy, which I understood the first time all right, did not feel right to me. You compared an unpronounceable combination of letters to a pronounceable one, which might be all the same
> to you, but not to me.

 OK then how about "I can't thing of a single English word with gh in it."

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## adoc

> When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth. The sound is "darker". Say "she" and repeat it, pullling your tongue further back into the mouth. You may need to widen the opening of the mouth as you do this.

 No way.  Where did you get that?  I almost threw up trying to follow this instruction.

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## igorfa100

> I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form. 
> That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"

 it's because I'm a native speaker rather than a native writer, I am literate in the sense that I can read but I've always been awfull at spelling and punctuation (Russian's got some strickt rules about where commas are supposed to go in a sentence)I always have a tendency in spell words the way I hear them in Russian. It's somewhat different with English because in english there are so many exceptions that for a large number of words you simply have to know the exact spelling, otherwise you might not even be able to read them. As for thinking of words with specific letter combinations off the top of one's head, I guess if you were to look hard enough you'd probably be able to find a couple of such  letter sequences  which do occur in English regularly but which some natives speakers might have difficulty remembering.

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## HA

> Originally Posted by HA  you did not get my point either, that's cultural differences for you. Most Russians feel that spelling should more or less match pronunciation, to the the point of adding new letters and removing obsolete ones.
> That's what's wrong with "шь": it's an impossible combination of sounds, although a common 
> combination of letters. 
> That's why your analogy, which I understood the first time all right, did not feel right to me. You compared an unpronounceable combination of letters to a pronounceable one, which might be all the same
> to you, but not to me.   OK then how about "I can't thing of a single English word with gh in it."

 makes perfect sence to me   ::

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## chaika

It's probably because the language is in flux that we are getting all the different interpretations of the sounds - they *are* pronounced differently. 
The following is from T. Wade, *A Comprehensive Russian Grammar*, 2nd ed., rev. and exp., 2003, pp.5-6:  
(iv) Unlike other consonants, ч and щ are always pronounced soft.... 
(v) The consonant щ is pronounced as a long soft ш (e.g. защищать...); the pronunciation штш [Wade uses IPA symbols I don't have- chaika] is falling into disuse. 
(vi) The double consonants жч ..., зч ... are pronounced like щ. The pronunciation [штш] [IPA symbols again - chaika], however, is preferred in prefixed forms such as бесчисленный innumerable', расчленить 'to dismember". 
(vii) Жж and зж may be pronounced either as a double soft ж (with front of the tongue raised towards the hard palate) in words such as вожжи, дрожжи, жжёт, жужжать, брызжет ... позже, especially in the speech of the older generation, as well as in that of actors and professionally trained announcers, or alternatively as a double hard ж, a pronunciation preferred by very many younger speakers. Зж is invariably pronounced as hard жж across the boundary between prefix and stem: изжить 'to eradicate'. The cluster жд in дождя 'of rain' etc. is prnounced as soft жж by some speakers and as жд by others.  
And more for your reading pleasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_ph ... rd_or_soft

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## TATY

> It's probably because the language is in flux that we are getting all the different interpretations of the sounds - they *are* pronounced differently. 
> The following is from T. Wade, *A Comprehensive Russian Grammar*, 2nd ed., rev. and exp., 2003, pp.5-6:  
> (iv) Unlike other consonants, ч and щ are always pronounced soft.... 
> (v) The consonant щ is pronounced as a long soft ш (e.g. защищать...); the pronunciation штш [Wade uses IPA symbols I don't have- chaika] is falling into disuse. 
> (vi) The double consonants жч ..., зч ... are pronounced like щ. The pronunciation [штш] [IPA symbols again - chaika], however, is preferred in prefixed forms such as бесчисленный innumerable', расчленить 'to dismember". 
> (vii) Жж and зж may be pronounced either as a double soft ж (with front of the tongue raised towards the hard palate) in words such as вожжи, дрожжи, жжёт, жужжать, брызжет ... позже, especially in the speech of the older generation, as well as in that of actors and professionally trained announcers, or alternatively as a double hard ж, a pronunciation preferred by very many younger speakers. Зж is invariably pronounced as hard жж across the boundary between prefix and stem: изжить 'to eradicate'. The cluster жд in дождя 'of rain' etc. is prnounced as soft жж by some speakers and as жд by others.  
> And more for your reading pleasure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_ph ... rd_or_soft

 
Just to clarify, ШТШ = ШЧ

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