# Forum About Russia Immigration to Russia  Почему Вы хотите жить в России?

## Mist

An I'm-just-wondering thread.  ::  
America has always been a symbol of ideal life: low prices, high life quality, wealth, civilization... Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US. But no place on Earth is a paradise, and there will always be people who long for changes. What don't you like about your country? Why have you chosen Russia as a place to relocate to?  
Please, share your motivation!

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## Оля

> America has always been a symbol of ideal life

 To whom?   

> low prices

 Er... Are you kidding??   ::   ::     

> Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US.

 Where did you get these statistics?

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## Mist

> Originally Posted by Mist  America has always been a symbol of ideal life   To whom?

 To the whole world. At least this is the way the states keep positioning themselves. One gotta be blind not to notice it. In fact the word "symbol" here is more like a synonym of "stereotype".   

> Er... Are you kidding??

 Hey! Waky-waky! Compare fuel prices in USA with those in Russia. There are a lot of things America gets for free. Should I explain the world famous dollar trick? Plus compare American salary and welfare rates with those of Russia.  ::    

> Where did you get these statistics?

 That's just what I hear from people around me. Maybe not every second, but just very many people. The USA is quite a successful country, so I just can't get what there's to escape from. So I'd like to hear from those willing to change America or Europe for Russia. Pretty interesting. I love Russia, but still I used to face the truth: it's not the best country to relocate to - no offence, just my opinion. It's ok if you are born in Russia, but for a European / American it may appear to be a little bit wild.

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## Оля

> To the whole world.

 Please don't say on behalf of the whole world.   

> At least this is the way the states keep positioning themselves.

 Exactly. I expected the answer to be "to Americans".   

> Hey! Waky-waky! Compare fuel prices in USA with those in Russia. There are a lot of things America gets for free. Should I explain the world famous dollar trick? Plus compare American salary and welfare rates with those of Russia.

 I actually don't think we can find an American who would agree with you about "low prices" in America... But we should better ask Americans. Not everyone in America has a good salary and welfare, and fuel is not everything.   

> Where did you get these statistics?

 Mist, I am very sorry to tell you this and don't want to hurt you, but... if I remember well, you are from Ryazan. A small provincial town, not so far from Moscow, by the way... You know, before I read this thread, I didn't know how big is the difference in thinking in Moscow or Saint Petersburg and that in small towns like Ryazan where people only dream every day to leave for "somewhere". To think that everyone is happy in America, it's so naive. Like living in Ryazan and thinking that if people there wish they were born in America that's how it is on the whole Earth. I assure you, in Moscow or StP people around you do not think that America is the best place in the world, and not every second person at all dreams to be born in the USA. At least, I never met anyone of the kind. America is just another country with its own drawbacks, where beggary exists, too.
Just watch a bit of American movies, at least. 
Are things really so bad in Ryazan?

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## Matroskin Kot

> An I'm-just-wondering thread. 
> What don't you like about your country? Why have you chosen Russia as a place to relocate to?

 For me there are a lot of reasons, and it isn't so much that I dislike the USA, as that there are many things I like about Russia and Ukraine. First and foremost: they speak Russian! Everybody does, it's great! Also, I really like the people. If I might make a generalization, Americans might have more money, but Russians have more value. Does that make sense?

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## sperk

where are all these people that want to move to Russia? Maybe Chinese and Vietnamese.  ::

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## Mist

> Are things really so bad in Ryazan?

 As far as job searching is concerned, yes, they really are. I'm looking for a job where I could apply my foreign language abilities, but here in Ryazan there're very few such openings. 
Another thing is that one shouldn't compare life in small Russian towns with that in St. Pete and Moscow. Big cities are other Russia, it's just like in any country.   

> First and foremost: they speak Russian! Everybody does, it's great!

 I'd love to move to some English speaking country for the same reason.   

> Also, I really like the people. If I might make a generalization, Americans might have more money, but Russians have more value.

 That's a very laudable motive, but upholding values it is not an easy way to go. I hope you understand what I mean.

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## Оля

> Another thing is that one shouldn't compare life in small Russian towns with that in St. Pete and Moscow. Big cities are other Russia, it's just like in any country.

 I don't dispute that, but it's just that every second person in Ryazan is not every second person on Earth.

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## Leof

And for me it seems like every person both in Moscow in StP is absolutely not the rest of Russia, needles to say the rest of the world. I presume that most of inhabitans of both American continents excluding Canadians would like to get the citizenship of the United States. Most of the people living in Africa and Eastern Europe try to leave their lands and move to the Western Europe. If the USA were closer all those people would chouse to live there and not in their own homecounries. 
Оль, seems like the citizen of Ryazan has more rights to speak for the rest of Russia and even the rest of the World than anyone who lives in Moscow or StP.

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## Оля

> Оль, seems like the citizen of Ryazan has more rights to speak for the rest of Russia and even the rest of the World than anyone who lives in Moscow or StP.

 Лёва, I think that inhabitants of Ryazan can only speak for Ryazan as well as Muscovites can speak for Moscow and residents of St. Petersburg for St. Petersburg. That's all. 
And I actually think that many people in "the rest of Russia" wish to be born in Moscow. As said, we do not have statistics of that.

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## Leof

I agree.
But eventually Ryazan is much more like the rest of Russia. That why I thought the view from Ryazan is more objective. 
It's like to say that the inhabitans of your house can speak only for your house and not for the rest of StP.
Рязанцы и россияне ближе к тождеству чем москвичи и россияне. Россия начинается где-то за МКАДой.

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## SAn

Во-первых, сам факт наличия жизни за МКАД-ой ещё не доказан. 
And the second, nobody want to live in Russia except Russians.

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## Оля

> And the second, nobody wants to live in Russia except Russians.

 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15701

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## Leof

I'd say exept some Russians.
I was trying to find for myself the answer for the original question and get some ideas. 
The main reason why the Americans (or elseone) could want to live in Russia is very because the reasons which Mist named above. What I mean is that there is the sort of people which always look for changes and adventures or even for неприятностей на свою ass. Like Feodor Koniuhov. People which are thirsty to свершений, событий and испытаний на hardness. Some go to the polar expedition, others take the full circle trip or climb the mountains. Some start to learn Japanese or work as the Medics withour boarders and risk to catch Abola or HIV or to be killed by some separatists in Combogia. And some move to Russia. They do not want all what Mist listed.  
I am sure that the ones whom Mist was asking are so rare and unique people that I am not astonished there are some.
But many people move to Russia because they can earn here lots of money. Some specialists are very wanted, not to say the stereotypes which are in our blood make all foreigners look higher and more clever that they are.  
An American, a man in a nice suit and white shirt, nicely parfumed, with a strong accent and American name can somehow give ten points to the Russian man which looks the same. Why? Because since the Peter the Great we are acustomed to learn from the European samples.  
So, Mist, everything you noticed works like the advantage for everyone who come in Russia from America.

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## SAn

> Some go to the polar expedition, others take the full circle trip or climb the mountains. Some start to learn Japanese or work as the Medics withour boarders and risk to catch Abola or HIV or to be killed by some separatists in Combogia. And some move to Russia...

 Excellent   ::  
— I live in Russia.
— You live in Russia?!
— Yep.
— Cool!
— If this is so cool, then may be you want to go here too?
— No, thank you. I will not survive.

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## Dreams

I'm from America, and would like to live in Russia someday. But, I'm the type who has wanderlust. I'm fascinated with foreign language and culture, and wherever it takes me, I will go. Seems to me that every country has its benefits and problems - some which may not be evident at first. I love America, but there are many social problems I would rather do without... however, the push for freedom in all areas of life is the factor behind this. So I suppose I'd rather have those freedoms, despite what they may bring, when there are other countries in the world living in oppression, etc. 
But I think that's a bit off topic. Anyway, I enjoy reading people's posts about Russia here, because I won't truly be able to judge or experience the country until I live/visit there. In the same way America's greatness may be overexaggerated, I feel the stereotypes of Russia that I've grown up with are probably overexaggerated as well.

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## SAn

I think this report will be very interesting to read: http://web.archive.org/web/200706202354 ... 05_HDI.pdf . It compares different countries. The report is from this site: http://hdrstats.undp.org/countries/coun ... s_RUS.html 
Also you may be interested how the toilets looks like in Russia before visiting this country: http://img-2004-02.photosight.ru/09/407428.jpg http://taiyo-vostok.ru/images/toilet.jpg http://img-2006-01.photosight.ru/13/1221926.jpg

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## Оля

> Also you may be interested how *some* toilets looks like in Russia before visiting this country

 Я вот не понимаю, в чем удовольствие и смысл поливать собственную страну, передергивать, выдирая самые неприглядные кадры и умалчивая о том, что ты нашел именно такие картинки специально. На последней картинке - это вообще не туалет, это _бывший_ и _неработающий_ туалет. Зачем пытаться убедить инстранцев, что у нас ВСЕ туалеты такие? Боишься, что они все сюда приедут и тебе места не хватит?

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## Mist

2 *SAn* 
В любом поселке любой страны таких toilets навалом.

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## SAn

Блин, я ведь не серьёзно. Это была шутка. А отчёт, ссылку на который я дал, всё же рекомендую почитать. Много интересного. 
Но не стоит отрицать, что в России плотность _таких_ туалетов на душу населения явно выше, чем в США. Советую зайти в общественные туалеты в вокзалах, школах, и других государственных организациях. 
В моём блоке общаги, когда я только поселился, унитаз был чёрный от грязи, смыв не работал, на пол лилась канализация из пробитой трубы, и в ней копошились черви. Мне пришлось голой спиной лежать в этой канализации и червях, чтобы заделать трубу эпоксидкой, и замотать бинтом, перемешанным со шпатлёвкой (труба была под унитазом, иначе как лёжа к ней не подберёшься). 
Когда я попросил у соседей удлинитель, чтобы включить фен, чтобы прогреть эпоксидку, чтобы лучше держалась, они сказали, что сейчас «гамают» (играют на компьютере), и удлинитель поэтому занят. А то, что я хочу починить унитаз — так «это моя проблема, и я не должен со своими проблемами лезть к ним и мешать гамать». В нашей общаге треть унитазов выглядят так, как показано но последней фотке (только не разбиты). Общежитие Московского Физико-Технического Института, ведущего технического ВУЗа страны.

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## Mist

> Но не стоит отрицать, что в России плотность таких туалетов на душу населения явно выше, чем в США.

   ::  Yess... Acknowledged!

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## Leof

Ну, про туалеты. В американском кино очень часто показывают именно такие туалеты в школах с неблагополучным климатом. И уж точно, что во всех фильмах в жанре "Поворот не туда" показывают именно такие вот туалеты.
А! Это! Хотел сказать, что многие российские телеканалы грешат именно такими вот сортирными взглядами на российскую действительность. НТВ например. Ситуация такая, что миллионам людей впихивают это в башку.
То есть, это в рамках нормального, пугать иностранцев, если уж нас самих стараются напугать.

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## iriroma

> Ну, про туалеты. В американском кино очень часто показывают именно такие туалеты в школах с неблагополучным климатом. И уж точно, что во всех фильмах в жанре "Поворот не туда" показывают именно такие вот туалеты.
> А! Это! Хотел сказать, что многие российские телеканалы грешат именно такими вот сортирными взглядами на российскую действительность. НТВ например. Ситуация такая, что миллионам людей впихивают это в башку.
> То есть, это в рамках нормального, пугать иностранцев, если уж нас самих стараются напугать.

 +1 Эт точно! Мне один иностранный гражданин как-то раз сказал: " А вы, оказывается, нормальные! А мы у себя в стране думаем, что у вас медведи по улицам ходят!"

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## Freegman

> America has always been a symbol of ideal life: low prices, high life quality, wealth, civilization... Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US.

 This vision of an "American dream" is nothing but Hollywood propaganda. What you see in American movies and television isn't like real life. Most Americans don't live like the "kids" in Beverly Hills 90210  ::  That's not to say America is a terrible country, but amongst developed nations, it doesn't even rank near the top in living standards. And even the countries that do are only there because of raw statistics, which removes the human aspect from it all.  
Some American cities are even comparable to third world countries, with murder and aids rates similar to what you'd find in Africa (like Washington for example). On the other hand, some Russian cities (like Moscow and St. Pete) are comparable to the developed world, and much more safe and clean that those worst places in America. Those particular cities don't represent the countries as a whole of course, and neither does San's hometown in Russia and his terrible experiences with toilets represent the entire country as a whole. Every city and town is different, some are better, some worse. One cannot judge the living standards of an entire country on personal experiences alone unless they themselves have lived in every region and experienced it all, especially countries as huge and diverse as Russia and America. And by the sounds of things, you've never even been to America! 
As a Canadian myself, I can think of many reasons why someone from the western world would want to live in Russia (or at least visit for an extended period of time). If I were given the opportunity, I'd jump at it in a second. Going beyond the reasons stated by others above, all you would need to do is observe how the average person here spends an average day. You would see just how empty, dumb, depressed and morally bankrupt we are as a society. 
Here's an interesting fact: Antidepressants are the most prescribed drug in America, with 1 in 10 women over 18 taking them. It's just as bad here in Canada. Do they need those drugs because they live happy, fulfilling lives?  ::

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## Scholes

Well that's pretty easy. First of all my girlfriend is Russian. Besides that, I have lived in Russia for 5 months and I loved it. Why? I don't know. It's hard to say, but something attracts me. Oh and once you managed to find a nice apartment, the rest is all super cheap. That's what it is, compared to the Netherlands. Enough reasons for me.

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## FedorV

Here's an interesting fact: Antidepressants are the most prescribed drug in America, with 1 in 10 women over 18 taking them. It's just as bad here in Canada. Do they need those drugs because they live happy, fulfilling lives?  ::  
yes... and you know why? i think it happen because live in america is much easily than in russia, in our case we have no time for the Antidepressants and psychologist, in addition we can't pay for that, it's for rich people... we even don't think about it...
and every time when life come to normal way, a government do something... to make our life more extremal... 
concerning prices, yes, our prices is lower than yours, but and our real wages is more lower, for example wages in my city about 5000-40000 rub in month ~150-1250usd... how you like that? 40000 is very gooood for my place (no one of my friend have it) (not for the moscow)!
Who want talk about it - PM to me, i have much more to say. 
sorry for my english.

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## delog

Antidepressants in Russia are replaced with vodka  ::

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## FedorV

))) 100%   ::  
and bears )

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## josmo

hey misty... it may takes a little 'latent' way of thinking that would answers a lot of your question and worries   ::

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## NuBoseTHX

Random Fact, homes in view from my Window start around
$1,250,000
or 37,536,413.66959 RUB 
low prices my ass...
and thats for a family house. 
I dont like living in America, I want to move back to Europe [Netherlands, or Russia]

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## Crocodile

> ))) 100%   
> and bears )

 And, of course, the inevitable balalayka.   ::

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## Hanna

> concerning prices, yes, our prices is lower than yours, but and our real wages is more lower, for example wages in my city about 5000-40000 rub in month ~150-1250usd... how you like that? 40000 is very gooood for my place (no one of my friend have it) (not for the moscow)!
> sorry for my english.

 No worries about your English, just keep practicing.. 
But can I ask you something?  
How can they live on less than USD 1000 a month? 
What kinds of jobs do the people have who make such salaries?  
i am guessing that they do not own their flat, but rent it --- what's the rent for a decent flat?    
How much does it cost to buy groceries (normal food) per month in your city? 
After paying the rent (or mortgage) and food, can they afford to go to a restaurant, buy clothes, buy stuff like an ipod, books, computer equipment?  
How much does a programmer make? (I am wondering because I work in IT).

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## Оля

> How can they live on less than USD 1000 a month?

 In Russia, even in Moscow, $1000 is quite enough for one (or even two) person to eat well and pay public services (water, electricity, heating, etc); and for some other incidental expenses. If one has his own flat, of course.
40000 is a good salary for Moscow, too (not the best, though).   

> I am guessing that they do not own their flat, but rent it --- what's the rent for a decent flat?

 For one whose salary is 5000 or 10000 is impossible to rent a flat. The rent depends on a city, and the difference can be very very big. In Moscow, the rent for a one-room flat (that is, a hall, a bathroom unit, a kitchen, _and one room_) is very high, and also depends on the flat condition and a district (also the proximity to the metro). I don't know... I suppose the very *lowest* price is... 20 000? (but it's only because of the crisis; before the crisis, it was about 25000 already).
In Petersburg, those prices are much lower. You can rent a two-rooms flat for 15000 (or even less), and just a room (that is the flat owner lives in the flat, too) for about 5000 (depends on the room's size).

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## vj1k

> How much does a programmer make? (I am wondering because I work in IT).

 30.000 - 50.000r is an average salary for a programmer. IT is one of the most perspective spheres in Russia nowadays. I can say that because i'm working as a network engineer here myself.  
You shouldnt worry about medical ensurance here too. Its free. The rent for an appartment outside Moscow will cost something near 5000-15000 r. The grocery and everything else - it all depends on your expectations   ::   but 20.000r for a normal life for a one person is quite enough.    

> America has always been a symbol of ideal life: low prices, high life quality, wealth, civilization... Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US.

 And about all those Russian guys who want to find a better life abroad and showing rural toilets here. I think that a person may complain about the life here only if he didnt find a place for himself. And I strongly doubt that such a person will manage to find a good job in a foreign country. And if you hope that a government will support you there and you will get everything for free so I wish you good luck.   ::   The life somewhere isn't much easier and better.

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## FedorV

> How can they live on less than USD 1000 a month? 
> What kinds of jobs do the people have who make such salaries?

 Easy, i already have a flat. And my wage before the economic crisis happens was very good (more than 1500 usd), i had my own busines. I still have it, but now it is not so good work.
If you want to see about wages you can see http://www.moyareklama.ru/search1.php?sc=7 region is Белгород.
Fore example, average wage programmers is about 15000-25000 (for a good programmer in good company). Teacher is 5000-10000. Accountant - 10000-17000. As you can see it is less then 1000 USD. And 20000 is very good they think.
The rent of studio flat is about 8000-16000. It's depends on place and furniture. 
But now we too can buy it using mortgage. So many peoples use it. 
By the way...    

> 40000 is a good salary for Moscow, too (not the best, though).

 Khm... I disagree with that. It's normal if you already have a flat. But if you live alone and you haven't the flat... 
Many of my friends live in Moscow right now. They gone to Moscow to got money, they work hard and get about 60000-80000 (few of them 100000, it is good) in month (they all are programmers). To rent a flat you must pay about 20000-30000 in month. Food, transport and relaxation with friends is not low-price too. So they tell to me they can keep not much from their wage.    

> You shouldnt worry about medical ensurance here too. Its free.

 ))) I didn't say so. Maybe in Moscow it is free. But in my place it's free only in paper.  In fact you must pay for a "normal" medicine. Not long time ago, this summer, one of my friends hurt his hand very much, we gone to a hospital, and we had to pay to doctor 500r for his job (free job  ::  ), or we didn't get any anaesthetic or other cure (we pay not in the cash desk, we gave the bribe). And while i sit there and wait for my friend, to the hospital arrive another girl, a dog bite her. Not much, but there was some blood and went is make some trouble for her. And know what they did? They refused to heal her and refered her to another hospital. When she gone, I heard one of doctors say it would a trouble to cure her because there might be infection and it's hard to cure. That's why they refer her... 
I don't want to live in country like that )))) This is only one of exemples...   

> And I strongly doubt that such a person will manage to find a good job in a foreign country.

 I have some exemples )) But most of them had a good work here. And they leave russia only because of that i wrote on top. You can get good money here, but things don't changes, a goverment remain, peoples remain, law remain (lawlessness) 
of couse imho... if only somebody understand a word...

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## Оля

> Originally Posted by Оля  40000 is a good salary for Moscow, too (not the best, though).   Khm... I disagree with that. It's normal if you already have a flat.

 So you do agree with me. Because I mean it's good for Muscovites, that is for those who have a flat. If you read my post carefully, you'd understand that I meant that.

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## FedorV

No. It's no "good", maybe it's possible to live, but not "good", i think so. I would say it closely to minimum for live. If you alone. But if you have a partner, it's maybe OK. However, as i know, salary for programmers begins from about 40000r in moscow. 
I want you to understand me correctly. It is the good country, here live many good people, most of men i know is good. And you can normaly make one's living. And maybe it more simple than in USA, but actualy to do that you must break the law. And all that things going wrong with medicine, police, goverment, taxes and others area of life. And i think that's never change here. A long time ago goverment says to peoples that all going to be good over 5-10 years. And still no changes. And always it will be. "Someday all gonna be good". And you have no confidence in the future. The next day goverment make do something and you ought to sell yours flat to cover yours arrearages. 
Like they do it now increasing taxes by twice http://www.rian.ru/society/20091024/190344231.html .

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## Freegman

> yes... and you know why? i think it happen because live in america is much easily than in russia, in our case we have no time for the Antidepressants and psychologist, in addition we can't pay for that, it's for rich people... we even don't think about it...
> and every time when life come to normal way, a government do something... to make our life more extremal...

 You missed my point. If people live happy lives, they shouldn't need prescription drugs. Forget about comparing countries. Just look at America or Canada on its own. We're supposed to be the greatest countries in the world...but by what measure? How easy life is? It seems the easier life becomes, the more worthless, shallow and ignorant our society becomes, and the worse our mental health becomes. An easier life doesn't necessarily mean a happier or better life.

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## Hanna

Gosh I forgot that I had posted in this room and didn't see the response until now. 
Very interesting. Thanks Olya and the others who explained about the costs etc.  
I have been considering the possibility of spending a bit of time in Russia -- I am also in the software industry, a project manager. Depending on what the possibilities are. Maybe a year from now. Either as an international project manager... or perhaps just doing something fulfilling and fun. But right now I can't.  
To the original post:  From the point of view of a European person there is nothing very strange at all about wanting to spend some time in Russia. I look forward to the day when there is a Schengen-type agreement between Russia and the EU so people don't have to fuss with visas. It will happen sooner or later.

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## Оля

> It will happen sooner or later.

 Better sooner than we die.

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## Горанн

Большой привет всем !
Почему я хочу... потому что я из Сербии, потому что очень люблю братями и сестры, и самое главное, потому что очень люблю одну девушку из России, котора найлучша девушка в мире !!!
Еще раз большой, большой привет, и извините за мой плохой русски язык.

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## Звездочёт

> Большой привет всем!
> Почему я хочу... потому что я из Сербии, потому что очень люблю братьев и сестёр, и, самое главное, потому что очень люблю одну девушку из России, которая найлучшая девушка в мире!!!
> Еще раз большой, большой привет, и извините за мой плохой русский язык.

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## Горанн

Спасибо Звездочёт !  ::

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## FYAN

Russian society has to change. And otherwise it will be a lot of problems. I think some problems has already begun! 
Eventually more foreign people will go to our country)

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## FYAN

ooops. miss-click on report)

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## Venje

Russia is very bad country. There's many stupid things. Your brain will be broken and you'll say: "Oh my god! There's a lot of problems. I don't want to live in this country! Please somebody take me back!".  
I'm seriously.

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## delog

Venje, it could be worse, like in Zimbabwe or North Korea, so we're pretty lucky  ::

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## maxmixiv

delog
I am not sure. We see the living conditions in N.Korea as the most extreme ones, but those, who was born there, possible are quite happy. 
On other side, a life in Russia is deteriorating almost for 4 decades, and no hope for noticeable enhancements on the horizon. Nothing left to be proud of, and the possibility of oil prices collapse is really scary. It could be fatal for the state without industry. 
Though, oil money does not benefit a lot too. "Воруют..."

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## Ramil

> the state without industry

 An interestinc cliché, totally unfounded, of course, but interesting... Media's doing its job, after all.

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## delog

There's nothing to be proud, of course, since we're comparing formerly superpower with Zimbabwe. Concerning NK I think that citizens are happy because they were ordered to be happy (if you don't know what I mean). We can be sad at least  ::

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## Basil77

> There's nothing to be proud, of course, since we're comparing formerly superpower with Zimbabwe. Concerning NK I think that citizens are happy because they were ordered to be happy (if you don't know what I mean). We can be sad at least

 Lol. Your link reminds me the story from my childhood. When Brezhnev died I was 5 y.o. kid in kindergarden. That day our governess hanged his big photo on the wall in a black frame and ordered us "to sit still and don't make any noise". I accidentally laughed later that day and was put in a corner for this.

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## gRomoZeka

I think that considering that people in the NK or the USSR were/are happy because they were "ordered" to to be, is a bit of oversimplification. It adds to the stereotype that people in so called dictatorships are nothing but scared sheep, which is sad. I do not agree that people in the late USSR were terribly oppressed or scared. The ideological press was there, and people believed in things that could seem naive or wrong now, but they were not brainless drones.  

> Lol. Your link reminds me the story from my childhood. When Brezhnev died I was 5 y.o. kid in kindergarden. That day our governess hanged his big photo on the wall in a black frame and ordered us "to sit still and don't make any noise". I accidentally laughed later that day and was put in a corner for this.

  Lol. I can believe that.  ::  It was not state policy to make little boys sad, though, it's your 'governess' had weird ideas about what was appropriate in a day like this. Особый подвид "тетка дубовая". ))) 
 I remember an episode a few years after Brezhnev's death. I was in the 1st or 2nd grade and me and my friend told popular jokes ("anecdotes") about late Brezhnev (including classics about "письки сосиськи" and "кому сиськи"  ::  ). We were laughing loudly and were making quite a racket. And then it turned out that our teacher (a stern and scary one) was withing earshot the whole time, she was literally behind our backs. I remember being scared that she'd berate us (the jokes were both political and vulgar), or would tell my parents about that, or would give me a bad mark or something. She pretended she had not heard anything. Go figure... (and she was very "ideologically correct").

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## maxmixiv

> An interestinc cliché, totally unfounded, of course, but interesting... Media's doing its job, after all.

 Can you tell any "product", made in Russia, for what you wouldn't grudge your money? 
And satellites are falling and falling and falling...

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## Crocodile

> Can you tell any "product", made in Russia, for what you wouldn't grudge your money?

 Well, probably not some assembled products, but stuff like the steel is still competitive. However, it's obvious there's some work involved to produce that. There has to be some modernizations, maintenance, care for the specialists, etc. Of course, the governing bodies couldn't care less as long as there are raw materials to sell which require even less investments. But, don't worry about the oil/natural gas prices too much. As soon as that goes down, the local governing bodies would realize that Moscow could give them even less in return than today, so the separatism sentiments would grow a way more than today. The central governing bodies would have to do something practical, so the situation with production could turn out for better.  ::

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## Ramil

> Can you tell any "product", made in Russia, for what you wouldn't grudge your money? 
> And satellites are falling and falling and falling...

 http://bit.ly/HOyfTY

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## delog

> Let me google that for you

 Bwahaha! Site is awesome!  ::  But concerning your search query, I think this picture speaks for itself:

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## Alex_krsk

::

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## Lampada

Постоянное движение народов. Эмигрируют из одной страны в другую и приживаются, кто как, по-разному.  ::  
Есть такие, которые возращаются домой. Об этом можно здесь почитать:   Эмигранты возвращаются в 
 и здесь:  Айтишники-эмигранты возвращаются в  
Интересный рассказ одного вернувшегося: Издательский дом

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## Serge_spb

> Lol. Your link reminds me the story from my childhood. When Brezhnev died I was 5 y.o. kid in kindergarden. That day our governess hanged his big photo on the wall in a black frame and ordered us "to sit still and don't make any noise". I accidentally laughed later that day and was put in a corner for this.

  :: ) 
There is a great story from _cynical_ memoirs of one man who used to be a police officer during those days:  

> Еще не понимая, что за этим кроется, начинаю ржать на тему того, что якобы «Брежнев помер». Иванов смотрит
> на меня, как на идиота, и вполголоса говорит, что так оно и есть.
> Угадал! 
> Официальное сообщение о смерти генсека объявляют по электронным СМИ только утром следующего дня.
> Страна скорбит.  *Матерятся все. Каждый по-своему. 
> Я тоже.*
> Через неделю у меня отпуск и через десять дней начало срока путевки в МВДшный дом отдыха в Анапе. А *отпуска отменены до неопределенного срока*.

 <...>   

> Всех офицеров милиции распределяют по перекресткам основных улиц для обеспечения в нужное время остановки автотранспорта на время молчания.
> Мне достается перекресток проспекта Народного Ополчения и улицы Счастливой. Неподалеку проходит железнодорожная линия с Балтийского вокзала. Она еще не отгорожена от проспекта торговыми и хозяйственными постройками. 
> В нужное время получаю по рации команду приступить к действиям. Выхожу на перекресток, размахивая полосатой палкой.
> Шоферы дисциплинированно останавливаются. Все автомобили, даже дизельные, глушат двигатели. 
> И вдруг делается жутко.
> На оживленнейшем и шумнейшем месте наступает полная тишина. Она длится несколько десятков секунд и начинает давить. *Вдруг на железнодорожном пути начинает гудеть тронувшаяся было от «Ленинского Проспекта» и остановившаяся электричка. Истошно и тоскливо.
> Гудки подхватывают остановившиеся автомашины. Жуткая какофония клаксонов.
> И полный ужас…* 
> Стрелка на часах показывает, что пора заканчивать. То же самое командует дежурный по рации.  *Делаю несколько разрешающих махов жезлом и убегаю с проезжей части. 
> Гудки обрываются, двигатели взревывают и все разъезжаются.*

 Юрий Михайлович Лучинский 
Ordered to be sad, LOL  :: )

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## Hanna

> Can you tell any "product", made in Russia, for what you wouldn't grudge your money? 
> And satellites are falling and falling and falling...

  ABBYY products are  market leading (software) and Kaspersky.Some other software products, less well known but still very good brands.Furs...Russian craft (traditional) is very nice, I think at least. This could sell for good money abroad if marketed correctly.There is a Russian company that makes e-Reader, forgot the name, but I've seen reviews of it and it seems good.oil & gas......Lada jeep (forgot the real name, but you know which one I mean. It's a good four wheel drive for a good price). I imagine it's made in Russia..  
I don't know why Russians are so negative about their country! Be positive, be pro-active! 
You have oil, gas, rare and precious metals coming out your ears! Europe has hardly none of that. You are lucky!  Look at Americans they think their country is much BETTER than it actually is. You think your country is much WORSE than it actually is. The moment you get rid of oligarchs and corruption, Russia will bloom. It's already doing well. Olympics?!  You're the only country that can launched a manned space flight! Enough with the negativity!

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## Serge_spb

> I don't know why Russians are so negative about their country! Be positive, be pro-active! 
> You have oil, gas, rare and precious metals coming out your ears! !

 Unnecessary flattery. 
Can`t see neither "intelligence" nor "conscience" in your list. Concerning the nation itself.

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## Hanna

> Unnecessary flattery. 
> Can`t see neither "intelligence" nor "conscience" in your list. Concerning the nation itself.

 Don't know how to take a compliment?!   ::  
If you want to hate your country, perceive genuine compliments as useless flattery,and not acknowledge that there is anything to be proud of, then that's your right..
I am not going to argue about it. Perhaps it's true. You live there, I don't.
 It's not the impression that I have though! 
I haven't actually been to Russia since my childhood in the 80s, so I  don't know for sure. 
I know it's better off than Ukraine and Belarus where I visited recently. And I watch Russian TV a fair bit. My impression is  that things are improving, at least in the cities.  
Re "Intelligence" and "conscience". 
Well, I certainly wouldn't credit my own country with being "intelligently" run. Most hardly any country in Northern Europe is. If you think your country is run by idiots, you are not alone! We didn't HAVE any serious problems, but we imported them from abroad, and now we have plenty as a result, but that's a different discussion.   *Syria* was very cleverly (intelligently) handled byRussia, and likewise *Crimea*. Also getting the *Olympics* and running them competently with no major hitches.  
As a comparison, look at the USAs fiascos and fails, one after another! And compare with Russia's successes recently.  
I know Russia has many very serious problems. But you started from the chaos of 92 and look how much better it got! 
 Western Europe is in decline, and it's mainly of our own making. Our countries are WORSE today than they were in 92. Immigration, social norms, family values, social welfare sold out, everything  privatized, more poor people. * For us, the trend is downwards. For you, it's going up. * 
I don't know what else to say. I felt really SORRY for Russians in the 1990s. Everything was tragic, pathetic and horrible. A previously proud nation that I had looked up to was literally crawling in the dust, with people resorting to begging, crime and prostitution to get by. All the ideals spitted on, and the notion that a country wasted 70 years and millions of lives on a failed project. 
At least that's what it looked like from the outside.  
I don't feel sorry for Russians now.  Should I?  Russia is emerging like the Fenix bird from the ashes. Congratulations, I think.  
You Russians scrapped socialism. You sold out everything the USSR had tried to create. You can never get that back. You made your choice! (or your parents, if you are young).  
But regardless of what you lost, or how bad things were for a while, today Russia is stronger and most people have much better lives than 20 years ago. In -94 the Crimeans wanted Ukraine. Today they want Russia. Maybe some other country or region will come knocking on your door...

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## Serge_spb

> And I watch Russian TV a fair bit. My impression is  that things are improving, at least in the cities.

 False impression. 
I`ve got no urge to be rude, dear Hanna, but it would be better to say directly.
Your incompetence made you to write so much about nothing, the whole passages based on superficial knowledge.
And for me, there is no much reason in argument, since you have to realize a lot at first. Would be an idle talk...   

> Don't know how to take a compliment?!

 I`ll give you a hint. A fat ugly girl who gets compliments all the time from her family. A junkie who "thinks" that he is cool, because his  addicted friends say so. Is it good for them? 
Another hint. Not everything that makes an average person happy can be counted by money. "For us, the trend is downwards. For you, it's going up. " - on which criteria, my friend? Have you heard anything about Human rights? What about the level of culture (n.b. I definetely mean not the number of written books or paintings hanging in Hermitage, but manners of exact citizen)? Public safety? Of course, there is no sence in watching Russia Today channel if you want to elaborate the question and see the reality. 
And another hint...  Since I began talking about money... Germany, Japan, South Korea etc etc don`t have oil, but are doing much better that "rich" Russia. (You can compare salaries and prices in my city (St Petersburg) with any of these - there is a link to a special website in one of my previous posts.) Why is it so? 
I hate receiving advices myself, but... It would be good for you to try to read some russian classics. Chekhov, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy explain such things. A hundreed years have passed, but the country is the same. We do have H&M`s and Volvo`s on our streets, but what happens in everyday life is far from being _"civilized"_. 
It is not about "country is run by idiots" like you said. It is about behaviour of ordinary people and their moral standarts.

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## Hanna

Ok Serge. So I will "downgrade" my "rating" of Russia following your explanation.
I guess I shouldn't have an opinion unless I've spent time there. But it has started to trouble me that so many Russians seem convinced that their country is trash. 
And I am wondering what your ideal is...  
If everybody is convinced that some other country is so much better run, or knows better than the 
Russian people and the Russian leaders how Russia should be run. 
I.e. USA, Germany, South Korea or whatever.

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## maxmixiv

> It is not about "country is run by idiots" like you said. It is about behaviour of ordinary people and their moral standarts.

 Note, Hanna, this says the person living in "cultural capital" of Russia. Try to imagine, what do people in less lofty places feel. So much hatred, so little respect, and constant readiness to attack. Animals behave more politely.
Russia may be anyhow rich and successful in geopolitical affairs, but our people will never benefit of it. It is "by design".

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## Hanna

> Note, Hanna, this says the person living in "cultural capital" of Russia. Try to imagine, what do people in less lofty places feel. So much hatred, so little respect, and constant readiness to attack. Animals behave more politely.
> Russia may be anyhow rich and successful in geopolitical affairs, but our people will never benefit of it. It is "by design".

 Do you think people in Russia are worse than people in Ukraine and Belarus? I was in both countries, several months in Belarus and a couple of weeks and a bit, in Ukraine. I thought people were extremely kind and helpful.   
In Ukraine, there were plenty of yobs and drunks about, but nobody seemed dangerous. People in general were extremely kind, I thought. Several people helped me.  
In Belarus, there was almost no anti-social behaviour, it felt very safe. Extremely bureacratic country though, and that caused me some problems.  However regular people helped me even though my Russian is very bad. Nobody tried to take advantage. From what I could see, people treated each other with respect. 
I saw one drunk person my entire time there. He had fainted at a tram stop. The police were downright NICE to him. I heard them ask him if he was ok, needed medical care or whatever, and helped him on his feet. It really raised my opinion of Belarus. I was thinking of seeing police in several Western European countries  kicking drunk people, hitting them and shouting at them. Several bystanders tried to help the man too.
I have read that in Russia, drunk people can get beaten up by police. 
The only people who were *unhelpful* were 1) some government officials in Belarus and  2) the staff at the Russian embassy (they refused to accept my visa application for Russia, for a silly, imho invalid reason). Everyone else were either nice, or indifferent. For  me, I was surprised at how nice people in these two countries were. And I thought Russia was the same.  
I'd say that many people were a lot nicer to a stranger than they would have been, in a similar situation in London, Paris or Berlin.  
I think that to some degree, the way that you speak to a person will dictate how they respond. 
And I have been taught to treat everybody with the same respect, regardless of whether they are drunks on the ground, sweeping the floor, or they own the place. It's quite rare that people are deliberately rude to someone who treats them with respect.

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## maxmixiv

Hanna, I don't say, that rude people is majority in Russia, quite opposite. Ordinary people can be very nice. You can make as many good friends as you wish.
But you will encounter unprovoked aggression, sooner or later.
There is certain percent (approaching 100% among men in power), that will do whatever to harm you, even without any advantage to themselves. Something to do with genes (and permanent drinking), I guess. 
I can't compare my region to any other place except Czech, and couple others regions in Russia. 
And comparison is not in favor of Russia. Czechs are more patient and benevolent to each other (let's don't speak of foreigners).
Russians are noticeably wilder.
I think Belorussians are closer to Czechs in this matter (solely from rumors, and from couple of Belorussians that I came across).
So speaking of that little percent of unpleasant people:
-Too agitated and harsh people are in Omsk.
-Calm and unforgiving people are living in Moscow.

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## SergeMak

There is a saying, that Russians can scold and criticize Russia at the top of their voice and be very convincing arguing that Russia is probably the worst place on earth, but the same Russians would hate and despise a foreigner should he/she agree with them.

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## Hanna

Well my mother thought that Russians were incredibly rude, based on her experiences accompanying my father on business trips there. (He on the other hand likes Russians - although not the "new"). She had plenty of stories to tell her friends of how rudely she felt she had been treated in restaurants, department stores and hotels among other things.   
I listened to hear stories on this (happened to her in lots of places, not just Russia)  growing up, and I always thought that she brought 95% of it upon herself by having unrealistic expectations, a negative outlook and not being very polite herself...  
So that's a person who did not like Russians and felt they were rude and incompetent. *Happy?*  
Seriously - I had a very good experience, like I said, in Belarus and Ukraine which both surprised me, in different ways. I am looking forward to the opportunity of an extended trip to Russia within the next few years and I'll be able to make up my own mind. Perhaps, like you say, the Ukrainians and Belarussians are actually friendlier than Russians ?! I always thought it was a very similar situation though - not much different. I'll post and let you know when I go to Russia!  
I am really put off by Moscow though, and although I've never visited it, I actually don't think I'd enjoy it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that people in Moscow are the least friendly and helpful in all of Russia.  
Seems that today, it's like London where I currently live; only more extreme in every way. More crowded, more luxury shops and dirt poor people, traffic, super expensive prices and stressed out people. 
Such a city doesn't attract me at all. 
And even if some Russians are obnoxious and rude, I can name at least 5 nationalities that I really don't like to have to deal with because I think are consistently quite unpleasant to have interact with, because most of them have some very unpleasant traits. Not going to list it here, but Russians is not on that list.

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## Serge_spb

> Perhaps, like you say, the Ukrainians and Belarussians are actually friendlier than Russians ?!

 Quite possible. 
Actually, sometimes I think that today we have got nothing in common except the language.
Different countries. 
P.S. When you come to Russia - make a short trip outside from the city centre and visit one of the _"спальный"_ districts. You might see a lot of new for european national. It`s better to take some russian speaking friend, though.

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## Paul G.

> I always thought it was a very similar situation though - not much different.

 Hanna,
don't listen to the people who have some inferiority complex about their country, ancestry and so on. They are miserable and pathetic. Such people usually try to set us on to fight. 
Of course, we are one people, as three parts of the one Russian family. If you take a look at the US, you'll see that Americans much more differ from each other than even Ukrainians and Russians (and especially Belorussians).

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