# Forum Learning Russian Language Getting Started with Russian  Rosetta Stone (version 3)

## Platinum

I have asked about Rosetta Stone before, and I have gotten very mixed opinions.  I bought Levels 1 and 2, and I love it.  Granted, I am still very early in the lessons, but I think it's a fantastic way to learn.  Especially for somebody like me who does not like grammar lessons.  (I don't even know English grammar, and it's my first language).  I have also talked here about learning grammar.  I know it's a necessary evil, but if I can postpone it, I will. 
Anyway, my question is this:  Does anybody have any experience with Version 3 of Rosetta Stone.  I have Version 2, but since I bought it less than 6 months ago I can exchange it for the new Version 3.  They supposedly re-vamped the format and totally changed the order of the vocabulary.  But has anybody tried it?  Like I said...I really like Rosetta Stone, but I'm trying to decide which version to use.  Any comments would be appreciated.

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## Winifred

Rosetta Stone used to have an online version.  Maybe, since you have purchased from them, they would let you try the Version 3 online for a week, or something, to see the difference.   
It's probably worth asking them.

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## Platinum

> Rosetta Stone used to have an online version.  Maybe, since you have purchased from them, they would let you try the Version 3 online for a week, or something, to see the difference.   
> It's probably worth asking them.

 
That's a GREAT idea!  I don't know why I didn't think of that.  I will write them today and see if they'd allow that.

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## leccoguy

I am currently using Rosetta Stone Version 3. I think it's a great product. Unfortunately I have never used Rosetta Stone version 2, so I cannot compare the two versions. Anyway, if can update your version for free, I certainly advise to do so.
U

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## Gatton

> I am currently using Rosetta Stone Version 3. I think it's a great product. Unfortunately I have never used Rosetta Stone version 2, so I cannot compare the two versions. Anyway, if can update your version for free, I certainly advise to do so.
> U

 I wonder have they updated those awful photos. And the interface in the older versions looks like it was created in 1990. I'd be interested to know the differences but I don't see any "what's new" information on the Rosetta Stone website.

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## grumpos

> Originally Posted by leccoguy  I am currently using Rosetta Stone Version 3. I think it's a great product. Unfortunately I have never used Rosetta Stone version 2, so I cannot compare the two versions. Anyway, if can update your version for free, I certainly advise to do so.
> U   I wonder have they updated those awful photos. And the interface in the older versions looks like it was created in 1990. I'd be interested to know the differences but I don't see any "what's new" information on the Rosetta Stone website.

 I'm using version 3 and its a big upgrade from version 2. The interface is better, and the new photos give you a better idea of what is being illustrated. The course has been re-written to place a greater emphasis on grammar. I still need to dip into other reference works to supplement the course though.

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## Atomcat

Rosetta Stone 2 has more content and Rosetta Stone 3 has a better interface. 
Rosetta 2 allowed you to learn way more words, but 3 actually placed you in methodology to learn, but it is so small.

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## Lt. Columbo

for the record, i hate rosetta stone (and many of the other super expensive products like them), the only one i found excellent was the FSI tapes (dont think there is a full russian version available tho)
in any case, have a look here:
[link removed]
it looks like the full version of v3 is available (free - as its a glorious torrent) make sure you read the commentary before you dl.
good luck

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## Hangernaid

I am almost finished with Rosetta Stone v3 level 1.  In many ways, it is a great learning tool.  And it leaves a LOT to be desired. 
You associate words with photos, and never really know what the words mean. 
Couple Rosetta Stone with several other books/audio, and I am learning, although not as fast as I wish.  Earworms has a short audio download that is catchy, but does not have a lot of information.  Russian in 10 minutes a day is a helpful tool. 
But all of these are just entry, none of them touch on grammer.  I was so fed up with Rosetta Stone that I was ready to give up.  I actually learned about conjugating verbs and grammer from this and one other free web site. 
I think that these web sites along with Rosetta Stone might be a good combination.  But Rosetta Stone advertises as if it was a stand alone product and it is not even close.  
Let's see if my opinion changes when I finish level 2 & 3.

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## DDT

You jest if you think you can learn Russian quickly without a thorough knowledge of grammar. You need to know grammar so that you can make up your own sentences  and have the person you are talking to know what and who you are talking about or referring to. Not only that, it is the grammar of language that makes it interesting, otherwise it is simply just the repetitive learning of vocabulary.

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## paulb

> You jest if you think you can learn Russian quickly without a thorough knowledge of grammar. You need to know grammar so that you can make up your own sentences  and have the person you are talking to know what and who you are talking about or referring to. Not only that, it is the grammar of language that makes it interesting, otherwise it is simply just the repetitive learning of vocabulary.

 Did you acquire a thorough knowledge of English grammar when you were learning it as a child? 
Of course in some sense you did, but you were unaware of it. 
If you ever get a chance, read some of the recent literature on language acquisition. I'm not aware that ANYONE in that field pushes a grammar based approach these days. Obviously grammar is a component of language, and it has its place in learning, but there are indirect ways of learning it effectively.

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## DDT

> Did you acquire a thorough knowledge of English grammar when you were learning it as a child?

 No. Native speakers never have any knowledge of their grammar. They speak by feel and habit.     

> If you ever get a chance, read some of the recent literature on language acquisition. I'm not aware that ANYONE in that field pushes a grammar based approach these days. Obviously grammar is a component of language, and it has its place in learning, but there are indirect ways of learning it effectively.

 If you want to learn fast then learn grammar DIrect. If you wait till you have learned INdirectly you wait a lot longer. Particularly in Russian where the word endings and beginnings all change. Let's say you know a word in Russian книга. Does that mean that you can use it in all situations? No. You will have to know what ending to put on it and any other words connected to it. Otherwise the only thing the person you are talking to will understand is that you are saying something about a book.  
Now, there are two ways that you can do this.
1 You can practice talking and listening to Russian until you develop a feel for it or
2 You can look it up in a book 
 Now, since number 2 is so much faster, you may as well just keep the book open and memorize the endings for all the cases...in other words, the grammar.

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## paulb

The point about first language acquisition is that it is done fairly quickly without (normally) relying on teaching grammar. By the time a child turns four he has mastered the majority of the grammar he will ever learn. I have a four year old son who speaks nearly flawless English within his vocabulary limits. Since he didn't really talk for the first year, that amounts to just three years of active language learning. 
I have to disagree with the notion that learning grammar from a reference book is faster than other methods. One can look up grammar points in a reference, but that isn't the same as learning. By contrast, there are some phrases and sentences I memorized early on in Russian which I can always recall easily which illustrate various grammatical constructions. 
If you are interested in learning more about these things, get some of the work done by James Asher or Stephen Krashen or Rod Ellis. Each of them are experts on language acquisition, and each takes a different approach, but NONE of them promotes the old grammar-translation method. I've found Asher's work in particular to be particularly helpful when I'm teaching.

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## DDT

TPR may be a good idea as a teaching method and for learning in a class or with a tutor but as for self study I don't see how it is possible. The principle of learning as a child is fine, but as adults we have that as an advantage, we can use books aswell. What would take a child 6 years to find out, we can do in a matter of minutes.

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## vox05

> The point about first language acquisition is that it is done fairly quickly without (normally) relying on teaching grammar. By the time a child turns four he has mastered the majority of the grammar he will ever learn. I have a four year old son who speaks nearly flawless English within his vocabulary limits. Since he didn't really talk for the first year, that amounts to just three years of active language learning.

 Toddlers learn grammar ( not just separate words ) of their native language long before they begin to speak. Google for "head turn preference".  And when they become older, they lose the ability to learn that fast ( e.g. distinguish sounds that are allophonic in their first language )
Just a link. http://www.pediatricservices.com/parents/pc-34.htm

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## paulb

> Originally Posted by paulb  The point about first language acquisition is that it is done fairly quickly without (normally) relying on teaching grammar. By the time a child turns four he has mastered the majority of the grammar he will ever learn. I have a four year old son who speaks nearly flawless English within his vocabulary limits. Since he didn't really talk for the first year, that amounts to just three years of active language learning.   Toddlers learn grammar ( not just separate words ) of their native language long before they begin to speak. Google for "head turn preference".  And when they become older, they lose the ability to learn that fast ( e.g. distinguish sounds that are allophonic in their first language )
> Just a link. http://www.pediatricservices.com/parents/pc-34.htm

 I have no disagreement with that, except that from what I've read the ability to attain native pronunciation remains until around age 13 or so. It's been presented to me (in my ESL teaching program) that the biggest advantage children have in acquiring a second language is not some innate ability of children (as opposed to adults) to learn language, but rather the fact that children don't have other responsibilities taking up their time and mental energy. If you could spend all day playing with your friends who speak the language you want to learn, you could probably learn it very quickly also.

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## Lt. Columbo

these programs are like the language equivalent of those sh@tty ridiculous exercise machines you see on the shopping  channels. you are not gonna get shredded abs by doing 3 minutes on your abdominizer per day and you sure as hell will not learn russian 'the easy way' on rosetta stone. period. 
adults and teens cannot acquire language like a child. period.
get over it. that part of the brain is closed for ever and there's nothing you can do about it (and it has nothing to do with them having 'more time'). during the key years of language acquisition the brain is an extremely busy place. 
kids, apart form have the "magic" part of their brain being active, are also completely immersed and bombard with nothing but the target language - all day, every day.   
maybe for some languages you will be able to get away without studying grammar and maybe you'll be able to do it quickly, but not for russian. 
if you really want to master russian, you will need years and i do mean years.
be consistent, listen to radio, watch movies learn words and study grammar. grammar is not some super boring scary monster, just get on with it  
потом уже по-русски побазарим!   ::   
good luck

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## paulb

> adults and teens cannot acquire language like a child. period.
> get over it. that part of the brain is closed for ever and there's nothing you can do about it (and it has nothing to do with them having 'more time'). during the key years of language acquisition the brain is an extremely busy place.

 I'm curious how you know this. Did you do some sort of secretive research on this? 
I'm not at all defending Rosetta Stone. I've never seen it demonstrated and it sounds like it is overpriced for whatever it is. I'm just someone interested in the subject of second language acquisition.

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## Lt. Columbo

i saw a really interesting show on language acquisition a while back and read some stuff on it, but no formal research. without going into details that i cant remember, they said the natural language acquisition window closes at around age 7.
also, if an adult went and lived in another country and was completely isolated form their native language, they'd (im sure) still pick up stuff and be able to meet some communication needs, but would make hundreds of mistakes and have an accent (there was another thing in the brain that deals with that, also interesting). 
this listen and learn method is especially bad for russian because of the case system - it's easier just to learn the case rules than to simply not understand why one time you say на диване and another time рядом с диваном. maybe ok for simple stuff, but when you want to express complex ideas and thoughts, you'll need to know how to do it.
language acquisition is something really interesting, ill search about for some more stuff on it and maybe post it here, might be useful and save someone some cash on RS (although you can dl it for free at least   ::  )

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## paulb

If your research consists in having watched a tv show, I would offer that you might not be qualified to lecture me on the topic. Diane Larsen-Freeman has some books on language teaching methodology you might consider. Particularly I would recommend James Asher's  book Learning Another Language Through Actions. Asher is a cognitive research psychologist and made some startling findings about one way to acquire language. 
A good overview of the critical period hypothesis can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis 
Also, you might be interested in this abstract from Stephen Krashen (Krashen is one of the most respected voices in language acquisition research and theory): http://tinyurl.com/8ro4xh

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## rockzmom

PaulB, 
Greetings... While Lt. Columbo may have sited only one TV program, there are several studies/articles out there that support the idea that there is a "learning window" for language and it is from age birth to approx. age 10.   
Newsweek Magazine, from February 19, 1996, with the cover being "Your Child's Brain" discussed this issue stating that, "A child taught a second language after the age of 10 or so is unlikely ever to speak it like a native." http://www.gymboreeturkey.com/pdf/yo...n_newsweek.pdf 
In the Februrary 3, 1997, issue of Time Magazine, cover article, FERTILE MINDS, stated "The ability to learn a second language is highest between birth and the age of six, then undergoes a steady and inexorable decline. Many adults still manage to learn new languages, but usually only after great struggle."  http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...5854-9,00.html 
Here is another article from the University of Maine  http://www.umext.maine.edu/onlinepubs/htmpubs/4356.htm 
And here is a special report from the National Science Foudation  http://www.nsf.gov/news/special_repo...tics/learn.jsp 
I wish you good luck with your language endeavors.

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## Lt. Columbo

the thing is, ill never believe that an adult can acquire language like a child, regardless of any study. ive never seen and never will, an adult that has become native fluent by using these rosetta-esque methods.
i have taught myself russian, am fluent and work as a translator in moscow. i know what it takes and how long it takes (although i still work on it daily). (i can relate to the great struggle mentioned by rockzmom) 
forget the endless research, learning russian will require time, patience and will not be easy (unless you're Ukrainian). you can experiment with expensive programs if you like, but you'd be better off getting a solid self teaching book. 
if you do try some new, dynamic methods and have some success, post them here   ::

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## paulb

Ok, I won't argue about it any more, particularly since you start with the position that evidence doesn't matter. Also I envy your competence in Russian. My own progress has been pretty slow, but the time I spend on it has been pretty limited. I certainly agree that mastery takes a lot of time and effort. 
To rockzmom, I'm aware of what you are talking about of course (see the linked article on critical period hypothesis), but the fact that adults are less successful at learning new languages is not really germane to the question of what methods are appropriate to teaching an additional language to adults, which is what I do.  
If children are much more successful at learning language than adults, and the methods used by adults are radically different than those used by children, then it seems at least possible that traditional language teaching methods are less than ideal.

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## gospodin

well it depends on the "guy". some are good with languages, some are not. those who are good, learn faster and all. I know one guy who is. he bought a self-study book, and studied almost everyday. and he really was good, I mean VERY GOOD. he learned to speak it very well, and when he went to visit the country, people said he was speaking like a native speaker. 
and this guy is not me (for those who wonder if this was one of those " one of my friend...")
the amazing thing is, that he learned it so fast. it took like 1-4 years. (well, he studied almost everyday, at least he said so, and I saw him almost always with the textbook or watching movies or anything related to the language.) 
if Im talking about languages with someone, I always tell about this "language-guy"   ::  
I think, that some people can learn the language very well with some programs (like rosetta or something else)
and *I know* that some people can learn it with self-study books

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## studyr

> I think, that some people can learn the language very well with some programs (like rosetta or something else)
> and *I know* that some people can learn it with self-study books

 It may be helpful, but not enough to learn the language very well. Especially self-study books. When I had read these books (except dictionaries)I could read and understand pretty well but I couldn't understand a word watching a movie.

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## Lt. Columbo

It may be helpful (what may? books or rosetta), but not enough to learn the language very well. Especially self-study books (what does this refer to). When I had read these books (except dictionaries) (what happened when you read these books? was it helpful or not) 
just trying to clear the sentence up a bit

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## scotcher

'Learning language like a native does' sounds great in theory, but I don't think you can compare an infant acquiring a their first language while entirely immersed in it with an adult trying to acquire a second language in 30 minute chunks. Roseta Stone and other purveyors of expensive accelerated learning systems that forego grammar have always just struck me as snake-oil salesmen playing on people's natural laziness and desire for miraculous no-effort results.

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## studyr

> It may be helpful (what may? books or rosetta)

 Both.  

> Especially self-study books (what does this refer to).

 To "not enough to learn the language very well".  

> When I had read these books (except dictionaries) (what happened when you read these books? was it helpful or not)

 When I had read these books I could read and understand pretty well, so it was helpful, but I couldn't understand a word watching a movie, so it was not enough to learn the language very well.  

> just trying to clear the sentence up a bit

 Is it clearer now?

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## Lt. Columbo

ya, it's clear now

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## Pug505GR

I stumbled across this site whilst looking for other means to study Russian, and found this thread pretty interesting for what it says about adult language learning. 
I'm 35 and have had a nodding acquaintance with Russian for quite a few years. Studying it, then leaving it. I've used various methods. Initially I used just straight vocabulary tapes, but got frustrated as it didn't cover the construction of sentences. So I couldn't see it's effectiveness for someone new to the language. I also tried Russian in 10 Minutes a Day, but also found that frustrating as I became sort of familiar with the text, but that still required some decyphering and I found it hard to imagine how the words should sound. 
I only recently come across Pimsleur and listened to that quite a bit on my hour long drives to and from work. I found that struck a happy medium for me as it covered pronounciation as well as basic grammar - differnent endings for words depending on situation/target. For any words that I am unsure of the exact pronounciation I can look them up and work it out from the spelling. I'm currently only half way through level one, so I'm still completely new. 
So it's interesting what lt. columbo (i think) said previously about sitting down and studying the grammar from books. Is this really the best way? Because studying grammar was an arduous exercise even in my native language, something I don't fully have a grasp upon even now. Also books wouldnt really give you 'feel' of the language and how it rolls off the tongue. So is there any happy medium to be found? 
My intention for my studies is to carry on the way I am - with a product that I feel has an adequate mix of both vocabulary and grammar. At least letting you know that there are differences and when they apply, but just not so much why. Once a good basic grasp of conversation is attained, start studying the grammar side and written word closer. Otherwise I found to get bogged down in the details at such an early stage can potentially stifle matters - including trying to read from sight. 
I would appreciate any comments more experienced - or inexperienced for that matter - people would have on this approach. Does it sound acceptable or am I on completely the wrong track and doomed for failure? 
Many Thanks 
Matt

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## studyr

> Studying it, then leaving it. I've used various methods.

 There's no suitable method if you're short of patience.

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## Pug505GR

> Originally Posted by Pug505GR   Studying it, then leaving it. I've used various methods.   There's no suitable method if you're short of patience.

 It's not that I'm short of patience. I quite enjoy it and appreciate that it doesn't happen overnight. 
But sometimes lifestyles change where you are unable to dedicate the time to something. That has been my situation. I haven't stopped due to lack of progress. Try working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and see how much energy you have for other activities. Add children etc into the equation and you will begin to appreciate why I've had rather spasmodic prorgress. 
So out of my lengthy post, have you any other advice besides patience? 
Matt

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## studyr

I'll tell you about my experience. A school program gave me almost nothing. Later I had read English self-taught and some reading books. Step-by-step it became my hobby. I was reading everything from "Caution! Risk of electric shock!" at rear panel of my TV set to "Hamlet". Now I use to watch movies with subtitles. If you need plane and easy texts for beginning I advice to start with fairy tales and short stories for children.

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## Pug505GR

> I'll tell you about my experience. A school program gave me almost nothing. Later I had read English self-taught and some reading books. Step-by-step it became my hobby. I was reading everything from "Caution! Risk of electric shock!" at rear panel of my TV set to "Hamlet". Now I use to watch movies with subtitles. If you need plane and easy texts for beginning I advice to start with fairy tales and short stories for children.

 Thanks. That's pretty much what I have been doing. I realise that there are a few products out there that don't tend to be as good as they say they are. So I have found a product that works for me, but I don't consider that to be all there is to it. 
It has very much become a hobby as you say. I'm not studying it because I have to, I'm doing it for pure enjoyment and to keep the brain working. The need for Russian here in Australia is not great and I often get asked why would I bother to try to learn it. I just like it. I watch the Russian news on television, watch what movies I can get my hands on and read the subtitles while trying to follow by ear, and get podcasts to listen to. And it's a great excitement to me when I can make words out, even better when I can understand what the subject matter is. I've even got my boys - 5 and 8 - into it, often speaking small phrases to them or using Russian numbers and times in answer to their questions. To tell you the truth I love it and could think of nothing better than to immerse myself in the culture and language for a while. 
I've read here that some people suggest listening to songs or nursery rhymes as you say, with the text in front of you to follow. I'll definitely be trying that. 
So what do you think? Is it better to focus on the spoken word first, then reading and grammar will follow, or is it the general feeling that being able to read it an essential first step to understanding? 
Thanks 
Matt

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## studyr

When you read an interesting book you can't stop without finding out what the plot will come to. Using rosettalike soft you're just getting tired and want it no more IMHO.

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## Pug505GR

> When you read an interesting book you can't stop without finding out what the plot will come to. Using rosettalike soft you're just getting tired and want it no more IMHO.

 Certainly. I couldn't agree more. 
What I am seeing at the moment with what I'm doing is not just repetitive memorising of vocabulary and phrases, but I actually seeing my conversational ability increase to the point where I can get through the basics. It is this growth of usable ability that I find exciting and can't get enough of. 
The first 'product' I used was simply words in english followed by their russian equivalent. I could easily say the russian forms of grass, moon, dish, sugar, etc, but as for putting them in a sentence I had no idea. It didn;t even give any form of greeting before I gave up on it - the product, not the learnin. So basically all it gave me was the ability to point at random things and name them   ::  I'm finding Pimsleur much more suitable in this regard.

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## studyr

To listen Pimsleur is annoying and boring too. I'll tell you about me and Rosetta Stone. My daughter is learning French at school. To help her I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from the bay. Using it I found speaking test option and decided to try it. When you repeat after the speaker the program shows conformity. I tried and got 30-40%, my daughter couldn't get more then 15-20% so she's gone away offendedly. Having enough of both French and Rosetta Stone I decided to make an experiment and switched to Russian. What was my amazement when I got absolutely nothing. I did my best, even changed my voice but all in vain   ::   How people understand me if I can't speak Pussian  ::

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## paulb

> So what do you think? Is it better to focus on the spoken word first, then reading and grammar will follow, or is it the general feeling that being able to read it an essential first step to understanding? 
> Thanks 
> Matt

 Repeat after me: Listening, Speaking, Reading, Writing
These are the four language skills. You need all of them. Working on one will help with the others, but you need to practice all of them. Writing is generally the last skill to develop well. Listening is actually the most difficult skill to work on. Get yourself a variety of things to do with the language and work on all of them from time to time. If you are working on it and learning things, then you are doing it right.

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## Pug505GR

> To listen Pimsleur is annoying and boring too. I'll tell you about me and Rosetta Stone. My daughter is learning French at school. To help her I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from the bay. Using it I found speaking test option and decided to try it. When you repeat after the speaker the program shows conformity. I tried and got 30-40%, my daughter couldn't get more then 15-20% so she's gone away offendedly. Having enough of both French and Rosetta Stone I decided to make an experiment and switched to Russian. What was my amazement when I got absolutely nothing. I did my best, even changed my voice but all in vain  How people understand me if I can't speak Pussian

 Having just 'acquired' a copy of Rosetta Stone I gave it a go, just to see what all the fuss was about. I must say that I didn't find it all that useful - especially when you consider the price   ::   I see what you mean about getting the voice recognition right. Like you, I couldn't pronounce anything that it deemed acceptable and correct. So I just turned the precision down one number and it seemed to accept things better. 
As a learning aid I'm not so sure of it. I think it actually encourages people to rush through it, only trying to get the correct answer. Having spent a few hours on it yesterday and being mid way through level one, my recall of the majority of things done is minimal. A lot of the answers I got correct without actually knowing what was being said and why. I think its use as a supplment to other means would be good. If you get tired of listening to Pimsleur etc, or reading, then it could be a casual way to build on your knowledge, but it's definitely not the complete package. 
Although the one thing I did like was the ability to talk back to it. It's the first time I've been able to actually assess my pronounciation, even if the results aren't perfect.   

> Repeat after me: Listening, Speaking, Reading, Writing
> These are the four language skills. You need all of them. Working on one will help with the others, but you need to practice all of them. Writing is generally the last skill to develop well. Listening is actually the most difficult skill to work on. Get yourself a variety of things to do with the language and work on all of them from time to time. If you are working on it and learning things, then you are doing it right.

 Thanks Paul, 
Here are the things that I'm doing.
- Listening to Pimsleur
- Using Rosetta Stone to further broaden vocabulary, although not so grammar, as well as my reading
- Watching Russian news and listening to other Russian langauge radio shows
- Reading Russian text, although I may not understand most of the words, it is putting the sounds of the words together phonetically which is the aim here., If I understand what is written, then that's a bonus at this early stage.
- And most of all making sure that I'm enjoying it. If I get to the point where things just aren't sinking in, then I stop as it only leads to frustration. 
Sorry to get this thread off topic. I might start a new one discussing all this and my approach. 
Thanks 
Matt

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## studyr

> especially when you consider the price

 Sorry! I have missed the word "pirate" in  

> I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from *the bay*.

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## Pug505GR

> Originally Posted by Pug505GR   especially when you consider the price     Sorry! I have missed the word "pirate" in    
> 			
> 				I downloaded multilingual Rosetta Stone from *the bay*.

 Well that's always the best price to pay isn't it   ::

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## studyr

The best price to pay is ХАЛЯВА.

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## Pug505GR

> The best price to pay is ХАЛЯВА.

 конечна   ::

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