# Forum Learning Russian Language Resources for Studying Russian Russian Names  Changing my name

## Funanori

Deleted

----------


## Leof

Hello. 
As I know you can chouse the name of your saint patron by any reason: the day you will be baptisized usually has several patrons, you can be named after any famous saint or clerical person of the past, eventually you can chouse any favorite ortodoxal name which fits or which the priest will advise you. 
Vasiliy is Bazil as I know and has nothing with William. 
William is Willy, Will - [Uiliam/Viliam, Uil/Vil, Villi] - I would say it sounds close to Ili*a*/Ilj*a* in Russian. 
Geoffrey is Efrem - old and very rare today (but very good) Russian name.
Patronim from Efr*e*m is Efr*e*movich.

----------


## Funanori

Deleted

----------


## Leof

You better forget the differense between Jewish and Russian. 
Maria is Jewish
Fedor or Alexander are Greek names
and Yulia is Roman
But they are now Russian. 
If you are looking for the paggan Slavic names (and you believe that they are Russian) you will eventually see that they are not Ortodoxal names. You have to chouse. If you wish to have the name like Borislav or Cviatopolk - you can not be baptisized with such a name. Russian is not equal with Slavic - remember that! Russian culture is multicultural it is a mixture, every period has its trace in its history and most of Russian names today are Greek, Roman and Jewish.
Anna, Elizaveta, Maria (and I guess Ioan) are Jewish and the most frequent names in Russia.
Russian names have Jewish, Roman, Greek, and even Turk origins and you can not help it.  
The full name of Iliya is Iliya. 
I did not tell you that Iliya means William in Russian. Read atantivelly.

----------


## Funanori

Deleted

----------


## Leof

Ok. William means the one who was wanted. It is an old english (if not even german) name and it does not have any equivalent in Russian. But there are some rare and weird Slavic names (I can presume that they sound like the name Norbert for the English ear). There is a thread somewhere in the forum about Slavic names, but I can not recall where it is. 
There is a feamale name Ждана (the one who was long expected), but I did not hear about such male names. 
If you wish to be Daniil (I believe it is a name which can be given after the babti...(I can't write this word properly, neither the other words) into the Ortodoxal church. There are many Ortodoxal priests with such a name) Efremovich,then your friends could call you Dan*i*la (which is well spread for this name). 
Full name Dani*i*l Efr*e*movich [last name]
The formal and polite Daniil Efremovich
Informal polite - Danila Efremovich
or just Danila

----------


## Leof

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ефремов,_Данила_Ефремович 
Here is the article abou your тёзка (the one who has the same name with you). 
It is written in Russian though. But is tells that he lived in 18'th century and was an honoured kazak's capitan.

----------


## Funanori

no- william is not of english origin, its of latin origin i believe (ex: william the conqueror of normandy) in spanish its guillermo, i think in greek (yes i know, not latin) its Vasilarose (Which is why i incorrectly assumed Vasily means William in russian), i am pretty sure Vasilorose is greek for william because there is a greek guy i know who always calls this guy i know (named william) vasilarose! 
by the way, jeffrey now is almost a purely english name to the best of my knowledge- it originates from Geofrey which in turn originated from the old english Godfrey, i am curious- how did that get translated into Efrem in Russian?

----------


## wanja

http://www.behindthename.com/name/william
It's a Germanic name, so there's no Russian equivalent.

----------


## kamka

Can I just ask why do you want to change your name? It always wonders me why people who don't live in the country, and cannot speak the language want to change their name into Russian, or any other, for that matter.
Or is that a requirement for joining the church?

----------


## TATY

I don't think it's a requirement of joining the church. 
I don't get it either, people will be like "where's your name from", "It's Russian", "So you're Russian?", "....no.", "Riiiiiiight", "I just randomly changed my name to a Russian name", "....  ::  " 
And yes, Jeffrey, Geoffrey (the more traditional spelling), derived from Godffrey, is Germanic, meaning roughly "God's peace". The German analogue is Gottfried. 
I suppose the Russian version of 'God's peace' would be Bogomir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomir_Korsov 
That's how they translated the name of the guy in that wikipedia article.

----------


## Leof

Radomir and Boromir, Frodo, Gendalf, Legolas...
When you baptisize you have to take the custom Ortodoxal name.
Bogomir can never be taken while baptisizing into the Ortodoxal Russian Church.

----------


## Funanori

> I don't think it's a requirement of joining the church. 
> I don't get it either, people will be like "where's your name from", "It's Russian", "So you're Russian?", "....no.", "Riiiiiiight", "I just randomly changed my name to a Russian name", "....  " 
> And yes, Jeffrey, Geoffrey (the more traditional spelling), derived from Godffrey, is Germanic, meaning roughly "God's peace". The German analogue is Gottfried. 
> I suppose the Russian version of 'God's peace' would be Bogomir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomir_Korsov 
> That's how they translated the name of the guy in that wikipedia article.

 i resent your ignorance of the matter- first of all i am russian american, second of all i have ample reason to change my name and there is absolutely nothing random about it, the fact is you have no idea who i am, what i do- or what i do it for. so i dont like it when you assume things you have absolutely no clue about, calling my endeavors random, and making blatant accuasations.

----------


## Funanori

> Can I just ask why do you want to change your name? It always wonders me why people who don't live in the country, and cannot speak the language want to change their name into Russian, or any other, for that matter.
> Or is that a requirement for joining the church?

 i have alot of reasons for changing my name- at least 5 of which i can think of off the top of my head, some reasons are private, others not so much. frankly- i identify as russian, even though i may be from america, my name was perferated at coney island when some of my family first arrived in this country- i also have many private reasons for changing my name which i will obviously not go into.

----------


## Volodymyr

It's not a requirement, but has many reasons- the strongest (IMO) of which being based in Christ's renaming of his disciples. For me the name change would serve as a constant reminder of Who I owe everything to. 
As for a patronymic I personally wouldn't try to make something up. It's one thing to adopt your patron saint's name, that has reasons... but realistically trying to create a patronymic just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We all try to find different ways to explore/celebrate our cultural heritage though so not knocking your idea, just my two cents. 
As for name conversions I never understood it. A name is a name as far as I'm concerned. I remember when I took Spanish and someone told me "Diego" was the Spanish equivalent of "James," so I used that in class- but you ask other people and they laugh at that idea. I guess finding names of same meaning is one thing but James is James, Vladimir is Vladimir, and Diego is Diego. <- My opinion! I know a lot of people have different ones on this! Another example: In Russian I don't *say* "Я учусь в витворте университете," because I don't go to school at "vetvort" university, I go to school at Whitworth University (I *say*, "Я учусь в Whitworth университете").   ::   
As for selecting a Patron Saint, as a convert I'd talk to your priest but I think it's pretty much up to you. Mine has particular importance in that it was largely through studying him (St. Vladimir) that I decided to look into Orthodoxy.

----------


## Funanori

> It's not a requirement, but has many reasons- the strongest (IMO) of which being based in Christ's renaming of his disciples. For me the name change would serve as a constant reminder of Who I owe everything to. 
> As for a patronymic I personally wouldn't try to make something up. It's one thing to adopt your patron saint's name, that has reasons... but realistically trying to create a patronymic just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We all try to find different ways to explore/celebrate our cultural heritage though so not knocking your idea, just my two cents. 
> As for name conversions I never understood it. A name is a name as far as I'm concerned. I remember when I took Spanish and someone told me "Diego" was the Spanish equivalent of "James," so I used that in class- but you ask other people and they laugh at that idea. I guess finding names of same meaning is one thing but James is James, Vladimir is Vladimir, and Diego is Diego. <- My opinion! I know a lot of people have different ones on this! Another example: In Russian I don't *say* "Я учусь в витворте университете," because I don't go to school at "vetvort" university, I go to school at Whitworth University (I *say*, "Я учусь в Whitworth университете").    
> As for selecting a Patron Saint, as a convert I'd talk to your priest but I think it's pretty much up to you. Mine has particular importance in that it was largely through studying him (St. Vladimir) that I decided to look into Orthodoxy.

 well i speak spanish fluently, and Jaime is the equivalent of james not Diego to the best of my knowledge, and i completely agree with you- i am trying to find a name that means something, i am not just making a name out of thin air, it has to mean something to me. i am trying to build my patrinomic based on a russified version of my fathers name. what is your advice on what i should do? i actually dont plan on changing my first name, just adding a middle and moddifying my last name. thanks for your input, i appreciate any insight i can get on the matter.

----------


## Volodymyr

Personally I wouldn't change your last name. For just realistic reasons, you ever apply for another job you gotta specify that you changed your name, they are going to ask why, and "personal reasons," is not only not going to fly with them... it is going to throw up a red flag. Middle name is much easier to explain, particularly if it reflects your patron saint.

----------


## TATY

> It's not a requirement, but has many reasons- the strongest (IMO) of which being based in Christ's renaming of his disciples. For me the name change would serve as a constant reminder of Who I owe everything to. 
> As for a patronymic I personally wouldn't try to make something up. It's one thing to adopt your patron saint's name, that has reasons... but realistically trying to create a patronymic just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We all try to find different ways to explore/celebrate our cultural heritage though so not knocking your idea, just my two cents. 
> As for name conversions I never understood it. A name is a name as far as I'm concerned. I remember when I took Spanish and someone told me "Diego" was the Spanish equivalent of "James," so I used that in class- but you ask other people and they laugh at that idea. I guess finding names of same meaning is one thing but James is James, Vladimir is Vladimir, and Diego is Diego. <- My opinion! I know a lot of people have different ones on this! Another example: In Russian I don't *say* "Я учусь в витворте университете," because I don't go to school at "vetvort" university, I go to school at Whitworth University (I *say*, "Я учусь в Whitworth университете").    
> As for selecting a Patron Saint, as a convert I'd talk to your priest but I think it's pretty much up to you. Mine has particular importance in that it was largely through studying him (St. Vladimir) that I decided to look into Orthodoxy.

 You've missed the point:
When we, as foreigners with foreign names, go to Russia, we use our English name, because that's our name. 
So James, would be Джеймс, not the Russian equivalent Иван.  
However Tamerlane wants an actual proper Russian name (with patronymic and surname), and wants the Russian *version* of his name.  
Furthermore, many English sounds don't exist in Russian, so if we pronounce our names exactly as they are in English, Russians have trouble understanding them and most importantly repeating them. 
Imagine if your surname was Whitworth... the _W, i, o, r,_ and _th_ sounds in that word do not appear in Russian and a Russian without good English pronounciation (i,e, who's studied the language for a while) would be able to repeat it. How do you expect a Russian to say / understand that. So we adapt our pronuncation of the English name to assist the Russians to understand it, and also so they can also say it. 
When I was living in Russia one of my friends was called Heather. When we first arrived and Russians asked her what her name was she'd me like "Меня зовут Heather". This usually resulted in a blank look from the Russians and they couldn't pronounce anything close to it. So over time she learnt to be known and and call herself Xьёзер (although personally I'd have gone for Xэзер) which is how the name was rendered on her Visa in cyrillic.
Even if I pronounced my name (Gregory) whith English Rs, some people couldn't understand it; simply rolling my R make it easy for them to understand, say.

----------


## Оля

> So James, would be Джеймс, not the Russian equivalent Иван.

 Иван is not the equivalent for James. It's the equivalent for John.

----------


## Volodymyr

But he's not going to Russia, thats one thing- though I would still tell them my name is James. I think its unfortunate we put almost everything into English these days but I wouldn't expect ethnic Russians to come up with some American name just to make it easier for me. 
Let me put it another way. Patrynomics are basically uniquely Russian, I know for a fact some couldn't care less, and others would be offended that an American had created one for himself. I have no interest in getting into a debate whether they should or not- but as far as I see it thats the case. So like I said, I personally wouldn't try and create a patronymic, if only for that reason. 
And I do understand where you are coming from Tamerlane. I have struggled to figure out how to participate in my Russian heritage since I first found out my family was Russian when I was 5 or 6. It's not easy to this day, to some people you say your Grandpa is from Ukraine and you are definitely "Russian," others laugh and think you are weird for trying to celebrate a heritage like that (two or three generations back).

----------


## TATY

Again, Volodymyr, you've not read /understand what I've written. Tamerlane has specifically asked for a *Russian* name, if he wanted to keep his English name, then he wouldn't have to change his name (read the title of this thread). 
I don't know what you mean about "everyone putting everything into English these days", that's a very vague statement and doesn't seem to refer to anything anyone's said in this post. 
In fact your whole last post doesn't make sense. 
And regarding your grandpa from Ukraine; I'm not sure if I've understood you right, but having one grandparent who is Russian (was he actually Russian and not Ukrainian?) doesn't make you "definately Russian". That would make you 1/4 Russian, unless you have additional Russian heritage from other grandparents.

----------


## Funanori

> But he's not going to Russia, thats one thing- though I would still tell them my name is James. I think its unfortunate we put almost everything into English these days but I wouldn't expect ethnic Russians to come up with some American name just to make it easier for me. 
> Let me put it another way. Patrynomics are basically uniquely Russian, I know for a fact some couldn't care less, and others would be offended that an American had created one for himself. I have no interest in getting into a debate whether they should or not- but as far as I see it thats the case. So like I said, I personally wouldn't try and create a patronymic, if only for that reason. 
> And I do understand where you are coming from Tamerlane. I have struggled to figure out how to participate in my Russian heritage since I first found out my family was Russian when I was 5 or 6. It's not easy to this day, to some people you say your Grandpa is from Ukraine and you are definitely "Russian," others laugh and think you are weird for trying to celebrate a heritage like that (two or three generations back).

 lol there are so many holes in your arguement- first of all how do you know i am not going to russia? for all you know, I AM! secondly, its simply not true that everything is put into english, my name has been put into chinese- and russian (my first name is already russian, the name changing is regarding my middle and last name)

----------


## Volodymyr

Okay but I mean immigrating, in which case I figured you would have stated that (most people don't change their name when they go on vacation   :: ). What I mean about everything going into English is stuff like "Иван" becoming "Ivan". What I'm saying is I know it happens, but that *I personally* don't expect Russians to come up with a friendly American name, meanwhile I'd hope they don't expect Americans to come up with a friendly Russian name. Names are names. Like I said, I know there are tons of reasons certain names translate into other names, I'm just saying IN MY OPINION. When I went to Russia the only translation I went through (my name) was from James to Джаймс. 
Like I said for a variety of reasons I wouldn't try to make a patrynomic. 
Oh and Taty: What I meant by some say that makes you "definitely Russian" is that you are definitely part Russian, others say at 1/4 that doesn't count for anything   :: . 
I'm not trying to start an argument or anything with anyone, I'm just saying in my opinion. Like I said we all try to figure out how to celebrate our culture our own ways. If you want to make yourself a patrynomic go for it. But this is the internets, its all about sharing ideas   :: .

----------


## TATY

> What I mean about everything going into English is stuff like "Иван" becoming "Ivan".

 But you said you don't like how everything goes into English... Иван is Ivan... 
Also James is Дж*ей*мс.
ай is the sound in t*i*me, b*ye*, cr*y*

----------


## Zaya

> Also James is Дж*ей*мс.
> ай is the sound in t*i*me, b*ye*, cr*y*

 +1.

----------


## xRoosterx

> Originally Posted by TATY     
> 			
> 				Also James is Дж*ей*мс.
> ай is the sound in t*i*me, b*ye*, cr*y*      +1.

 x3

----------


## Ramil

> some reasons are private, others not so much.

 I bet there is a girl.    ::

----------


## Volodymyr

That might be a good grammatical translation or whatever but they are not pronounced the same unless I'm missing something. (Ivan and Иван) 
I've seen like 4 different spellings for "James" in Cyrillic. I figured I would look at my Visa to find a definitive one and the consulate entered it as Джэймс, which I had yet to see so no help there   :: .

----------


## gRomoZeka

> I've seen like 4 different spellings for "James" in Cyrillic. I figured I would look at my Visa to find a definitive one and the consulate entered it as Джэймс, ...

 Which is wrong.  ::  Traditional transliteration for James is Джеймс.

----------


## Zaya

> I've seen like 4 different spellings for "James" in Cyrillic.

 Now what?   

> Originally Posted by Volodymyr  I figured I would look at my Visa to find a definitive one and the consulate entered it as Джэймс, ...   Which is wrong.  Traditional transliteration for James is Джеймс.

 +1. 
Но многим иностранцам в подобных случаях, увы, нравится именно «э».

----------


## xRoosterx

> Originally Posted by Volodymyr  I've seen like 4 different spellings for "James" in Cyrillic.   So what?        Originally Posted by gRomoZeka        Originally Posted by Volodymyr  I figured I would look at my Visa to find a definitive one and the consulate entered it as Джэймс, ...   Which is wrong.  Traditional transliteration for James is Джеймс.   +1. 
> Но многим иностранцам в подобных случаях, увы, нравится именно «э».

----------


## TATY

> That might be a good grammatical translation or whatever but they are not pronounced the same unless I'm missing something. (Ivan and Иван) 
> I've seen like 4 different spellings for "James" in Cyrillic. I figured I would look at my Visa to find a definitive one and the consulate entered it as Джэймс, which I had yet to see so no help there  .

 To write Иван in English it has to be "Ivan". English people may pronounce it incorrectly, e.g. like *I*van, instead of the correct ee-v*a*n, but that's just English speakers' ignorance of correct Russian pronunciation.
 It's the same with Vladimir; most English speakers pronouce it Vl*a*dimir, when with the correct stress it should be Vlad*i*mir. Basically you seem to expect that English speakers should be able to pronounce Russian names with perfect Russian pronunciation, and that Russian speakers should be able to pronounce English names with perfect English pronunciation. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

----------


## Volodymyr

No its the fact that no one has any interest in learning how to pronounce it correctly. It's not like I'm out there making a fool of myself by pronouncing it correctly, because everyone _expects_ you to pronounce it the butchered way. Obviously no one is going to learn how to pronounce everything properly  :fool".

----------


## Funanori

> Originally Posted by Tamerlane  some reasons are private, others not so much.   I bet there is a girl.

 lol... i wish it were so.

----------


## xRoosterx

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by Tamerlane  some reasons are private, others not so much.   I bet there is a girl.      lol... i wish it were so.

 I bet there is a man.

----------


## Funanori

> I bet there is a man.

 yes its you!  ::

----------


## xRoosterx

> Originally Posted by xRoosterx  I bet there is a man.   yes its you!

 O rly же? Or is it really this guy?    
Case closed.

----------


## Leof

xRoosterx, ты первый начал.
Нечего теперь вредничать.  ::

----------


## Funanori

> Hello. 
> As I know you can chouse the name of your saint patron by any reason: the day you will be baptisized usually has several patrons, you can be named after any famous saint or clerical person of the past, eventually you can chouse any favorite ortodoxal name which fits or which the priest will advise you. 
> Vasiliy is Bazil as I know and has nothing with William. 
> William is Willy, Will - [Uiliam/Viliam, Uil/Vil, Villi] - I would say it sounds close to Ili*a*/Ilj*a* in Russian. 
> Geoffrey is Efrem - old and very rare today (but very good) Russian name.
> Patronim from Efr*e*m is Efr*e*movich.

 as a patrinomic- would it be Villiamovich or Viliamovich? and would it be appropriate to make the patrinomic to honor a particular person as opposed to using the fathers name? also regarding last names, would the end part of a laste name be sky or ski? such as Dostoevsky or Arlovski?

----------


## Ramil

> as a patrinomic- would it be Villiamovich or Viliamovich?

 To choose between Vill- and Vil- you should discard latin letters and write your father's name in cyrillic.
If it's Ви*лл*ьям then you should use double 'l', if it's Ви*л*ьям, then use only one 'l'.   

> and would it be appropriate to make the patrinomic to honor a particular person as opposed to using the fathers name?

 No, your patronymic should point at your father. You can change surname to honor somebody. My surname, for example, is not the same with my grandfather's since my grandma changed her own surname and her children's (my father's and uncle's) after him as a birthday present. You can change the patronymic, I suppose, since this all is, after all, a bit artificial, but I don't see the point. A patronymic should have your father's name in it.   

> also regarding last names, would the end part of a laste name be sky or ski? such as Dostoevsky or Arlovski?

 Again, it's all  -ский in Russian. The Russians use cyrillic letters, remember. The rules of transliteration still require to use -sky.

----------


## it-ogo

> Again, it's all  -ский in Russian. The Russians use cyrillic letters, remember. The rules of transliteration still require to use -sky.

 AFAIK, contemporary official letter-by-letter cyr-lat transliteration (which is particularly used to produce Russian foreign passports) requires -skij/-skaja (mus/fem). 
-sky/-ska became a kind of international standard because it is used in Polish (which is Slavic language with the like surnames and use a latin-based alphabet).

----------


## Оля

> -sky/-ska became a kind of international standard because it is used in Polish (which is Slavic language with the like surnames and use a latin-based alphabet).

 No. In Polish the ending of such surnames is *ski*. (And -sk*y* would be read as "ск*ы*": say, Ковалевск*ы*, not Ковалевск*и*; but it's incorrect).

----------


## it-ogo

> No. In Polish the ending of such surnames is *ski*. (And -sk*y* would be read as "ск*ы*": say, Ковалевск*ы*, not Ковалевск*и*; but it's incorrect).

 Oops! Indeed... So, where this strange "-sky" came from?

----------


## xRoosterx

[quote=it-ogo] 

> No. In Polish the ending of such surnames is *ski*. (And -sk*y* would be read as "ск*ы*": say, Ковалевск*ы*, not Ковалевск*и*; but it's incorrect).

 Oops! Indeed... So, where this strange "-sky" came from?[/quote:73rs3saa]
I'm sure the origin is obscure, but my guess is that it is simply an anglicized transliteration; an 'ee' sound in the suffix of a word is nearly always expressed with 'y'.

----------


## Funanori

guys- i have been doing my research, and it turns out that the 3 names First Patrynomic Last is not a genuine russian name- that a genuine russian pre soviet name consists of the first name and the patrinomic only- such as Daniel Aleksandrovich of Moscow, last names such as Oslov, Koslov, Pavlov, etc. were all invented by communist regime- Koslov meaning goat, Zhukov meaning insect etc. does anyone know anything about this?

----------


## Funanori

> guys- i have been doing my research, and it turns out that the 3 names First Patrynomic Last is not a genuine russian name- that a genuine russian pre soviet name consists of the first name and the patrinomic only- such as Daniel Aleksandrovich of Moscow, last names such as Oslov, Koslov, Pavlov, etc. were all invented by communist regime- Koslov meaning goat, Zhukov meaning insect etc. does anyone know anything about this?

 
above^

----------


## it-ogo

> guys- i have been doing my research, and it turns out that the 3 names First Patrynomic Last is not a genuine russian name- that a genuine russian pre soviet name consists of the first name and the patrinomic only- such as Daniel Aleksandrovich of Moscow, last names such as Oslov, Koslov, Pavlov, etc. were all invented by communist regime- Koslov meaning goat, Zhukov meaning insect etc. does anyone know anything about this?

 In fact, originally "Aleksandrovich" and "Aleksandrov" means the same (the father's name is Aleksandr) but the former way is just more respectable. "Aleksandrov" is a genitive case of "Aleksandr" i.e. "Aleksandrov"=("[son] of Aleksandr"). "-ovich" was usually a reference to noble one while "-ov" - to a peasant. And "Kozlov" usually meant that father's (or family leader's) alias was "Kozel" = Goat. It was rather definition then sign of respect and therefore was more often used as a family name. So patrynomics often was the origin of family name. Now a family name and individual patrynomic name are used both. All individual patrynomic names are in respectable form now while family names usually keep a stamp of history. All of this was standartized before communists.  
PS In fact, family name of Daniil Aleksandrovich of Moscow was Rurikovich. Rurikoviches were the first dinasty of Rus (not exactly "royal" dinasty but something like). The founder of this family was viking Rurik. But at that time the system of names was not standartized.

----------


## Funanori

well the point being that- could a name that would traditionally be a patrinomic, be in fact a surname? could one feasibly have a name such as Dmitry Pavlovich, and thats it, no middle name? an example of this would be Ivan the terrible- his full name was just Ivan Vasilyevich. the concept of a last name did not exist in russian history until later years, even in Alexander Nevksy- nevksy means nothing but "from near the river" so as to differentiate him from another Alexander Yaroslavich. from what i have learned, when the communist regime took over- russians were given arbitrary, even derogotary peasant surnames because the communist revolution was essentialy a revolution for peasant land reform. "oviches" as surnames were removed because it represented nobility.

----------


## it-ogo

> well the point being that- could a name that would traditionally be a patrinomic, be in fact a surname? could one feasibly have a name such as Dmitry Pavlovich, and thats it, no middle name?

 Now surnames with "-vich" are widespread in Belorussia and less in Poland. In Russia they are few but they are. Yet usually surname with "-vich" does not sounds like Patrynomic name (PN). Even if it is used as surname (rare) sometimes the stress is changed. For example, Pavl*O*vich (surname) inatead of P*A*vlovich (PN).   *an example of this would be Ivan the terrible- his full name was just Ivan Vasilyevich.*
Ivan IV the Terrible was also Rurikovich. Traditionally  when referred to the monarch, his surname is not used, AFAIK it is true for the whole Europe.   

> the concept of a last name did not exist in russian history until later years,

 I say "family name" (or surname), not "last name", because "last" referred to some unnecessary standards and now in Russian it is "фамилия"="familia". But it was not standartized (and was not so obvious) until the implementation of effective bureaucracy. Not sure when it was though. You need professional historian consultation.   

> even in Alexander Nevksy- nevksy means nothing but "from near the river" so as to differentiate him from another Alexander Yaroslavich.

 Both of them were Rurikoviches. It was a very big dinasty.  ::    

> from what i have learned, when the communist regime took over- russians were given arbitrary, even derogotary peasant surnames because the communist revolution was essentialy a revolution for peasant land reform.

 Well, the first total population census in Russian Empire was in 1897, before communists. AFAIK surnames at that time were obvious. (Then there were other censi in USSR.) As I know most Russians at 1897 already had fixed surnames but many national minorities (mainly eastern) at that time mainly did not. I can imagine the procedure was like below: 
- Hey, you, come here!
- Err...
- What is your name?
- XXX
- What is your family name?
- Uh...
- OK, what is the name of your father?
- ZZZ. 
- OK, now you are XXX ZZZovich ZZZov. Got it? Next!..   

> "oviches" as surnames were removed because it represented nobility.

 Well is Russian surnames there was not effective sign of nobility (like "de" in French or "von" in German) so there was nothing to remove. As I did say "-vich" surnames were enough rare in all times. The second Russian dinasty were Romanovs not Romanoviches.  ::  And situation with PNs did not changed with communists. Both in that times and now we obviously have in our documents both PN and SN. And in usual speach we use PN when we want to emphasize respect.

----------


## Funanori

well my question is this- would it be possible for a last name to end in ovich? 
such as- Ivan (no patrinomic) Vasilyevich

----------


## Ramil

Yeah, but Russian speakers would think you are a jew. ))) A surname that ends with -ovich is very common among the Jews.

----------


## it-ogo

> well my question is this- would it be possible for a last name to end in ovich?

 It is possible but rare (in Russian). It is more often in Polish and very often in Belorussian.   

> such as- Ivan (no patrinomic) Vasilyevich

 If you mean zar Ivan IV the Terrible then Vasilyevich is his patrinomic. His "last name" is different.

----------


## Zaya

> Yeah, but Russian speakers would think you are a jew. ))) A surname that ends with -ovich is very common among the Jews.

 Also among Serbians and Croatians I think (e.g. Milla Jovovich). 
BTW  

> Так американское middle name и наше отчество - две совершенно разные вещи!

 http://www.trworkshop.net/forum/viewtop ... 645#p61645
American middle name and Russian patronymic name are totally different things.   

> damn- i feel like an idiot for not speaking russian. i feel like i am changing my name out of complete ignorance if i dont at least know the cyrillic alphabet.

 I couldn't agree more.  ::

----------


## Funanori

> Yeah, but Russian speakers would think you are a jew. ))) A surname that ends with -ovich is very common among the Jews.

 i'll be honest with you- i have never met a jew with a last name that ended in ovich- usually they have german names like greenberg, stein, goldman, and if they do have russian names it almost always (From my expierence) ends in sky or ski. ovich as the end of a surname from what i have seen is more typical of yugoslavians (milosovich, filopovich, blagojevich, malkovich etc.)

----------


## Оля

Vasìlyevich (Васи*ль*евич) can't be a surname. The surname would be Васи*л*евич - without the "ь" and with another stress. 
Another examples (patronymic - surname):
Григорьевич - Григорович
Михайлович - Михайлович
Максимович - Максимович
Адамович - Адамович
etc.

----------


## Funanori

hello

----------


## Funanori

^^above

----------


## gRomoZeka

> since my fathers name is not russian (Jeffery) would it be possible to just russify the patrinomic? as in Yefreyevich or something like that?

 The patronymic from Jeffrey would be Джеф(ф)ревич/Jeffrevich (second 'ф' is optional), but it sounds a little off. I'd use some Russian name that can be a (rough) equivalent of Jeffrey, say a nice Russian name Ефрем (Yefrem): Ефремович/Yefremovich.

----------


## Funanori

hello

----------


## it-ogo

Deleted.

----------


## Funanori

well- i wouldnt be considered an old man since its my father whos name translates as that! i have a question though- is Emelyan the same name as Yemelyan? i see it spelled differently in latin letters but i dont know if it is two different names or not. is it spelled the same way in cyrllic?

----------


## it-ogo

> well- i wouldnt be considered an old man since its my father whos name translates as that! i have a question though- is Emelyan the same name as Yemelyan? i see it spelled differently in latin letters but i dont know if it is two different names or not. is it spelled the same way in cyrllic?

 It is the same. "Емельян".

----------


## Funanori

guys- i found a prime example of a russian patrinomic surname. 
Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych

----------


## Оля

> guys- i found a prime example of a russian patrinomic surname. 
> Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych

 Yanukovych is not a patronymic, there is no such name, 'Yanuk' (and if it existed, the stress in the patronymic would be different).
Yanukovych is just an ordinary surname on '-ovich'.

----------


## Funanori

> Originally Posted by Tamerlane  guys- i found a prime example of a russian patrinomic surname. 
> Viktor Fedorovych Yanukovych   Yanukovych is not a patronymic, there is no such name, 'Yanuk' (and if it existed, the stress in the patronymic would be different).
> Yanukovych is just an ordinary surname on '-ovich'.

 its the name of a ukrainian politician- look him up. btw, does anyone know of any other rough equivalents to Jeffery besides "Yefrem" is georgi also a good equivalent?

----------


## Оля

> its the name of a ukrainian politician- look him up.

 Do you really think I don't know who Yanukovych is? I'm telling you that his surname is not a patronymic.
I meant there is no such name - 'Yanuk'.

----------


## Funanori

should i just remove my middle name? and simply only have my first and last name?

----------


## it-ogo

> should i just remove my middle name? and simply only have my first and last name?

 Your "middle" names in Russian formalism are just a part of name. A name may consist of as many words as one likes. To have a patronymic you should go ask your father what is his first name and add -vich. 
For example, if the father of Pedro Maria Manuel Gomez is Jose then his identification in Russian is the following. 
Имя (name): Педро Мария Мануэль
Отчество (patronymic): Хосевич
Фамилия (surname):Гомес 
This is accepted way. Of cause if he likes he can call himself "Пётр Мариевич" or whatever else but it is incorrect.

----------


## Оля

> For example, if the father of Pedro Maria Manuel Gomez is Jose then his identification in Russian is the following. 
> Имя (name): Педро Мария Мануэль
> Отчество (patronymic): Хосевич
> Фамилия (surname):Гомес

 I have strong doubts about the "Мария Мануэль" here. I believe it should be just Педро Хосевич in Russian (althogh it sounds quite ugly). No any "Мария Мануэль" after "Pedro". How would you address this Pedro then? "Педро Мария Мануэль Хосевич, простите, а можно вопрос?" He he. Never. Only just one word which is a name + one word which is a patronymic.   

> A name may consist of as many words as one likes.

 Sure. Only not in Russian.

----------


## Wowik

> I meant there is no such name - 'Yanuk'.

 Januk (Янук) — Polish (and Belorussian and Ukranian) diminutive from Jan (Ян) — Iwan (Иван). Here are some another variants: Янка, Ясь.  
Examples:
«Янук Сялиба» poem of Максим Танк
Januk Daraszkiewicz (see here)
Иван Луцевич — он же Янук из-под Минска, он же Янка Купала.

----------


## Оля

> Originally Posted by Оля  I meant there is no such name - 'Yanuk'.   Januk (Янук) — Polish (and Belorussian and Ukranian) diminutive from Jan (Ян) — Iwan (Иван). Here are some another variants: Янка, Ясь.

 Great.
Anyway, there is no such name in Russian, and Yanukovich in Victor Yanukovich is NOT a patronymic and does not sound like a patronymic. The patronymic would sound Y*a*nukovich (or maybe Yan*u*kovich), but NOT Yanuk*o*vich as in Victor Yanukovich. It is just a surname. There is nothing special about Yanukovich which Tamerlane "found as a prime example" - why not Step*a*novich/Stepan*o*vich, or Alex*a*ndrovich/Alexandr*o*vich, or Mikh*a*ylovich/Mikhayl*o*vich then? They all are even more "prime".

----------


## Wowik

> ...there is no such name in Russian...

 Poor, poor Янук Купала!   ::    

> ... but NOT Yanuk*o*vich ...

 Pronunciation in Polish manner: stress on the last syllable but one. Belorussian and Ukranian sometimes could have the same peculiarity. 
Да даже не в ударении дело - сербские фамилии на -ич тоже теперь не отчества.

----------


## gRomoZeka

> Originally Posted by Оля  I meant there is no such name - 'Yanuk'.   Januk (Янук) — Polish (and Belorussian and Ukranian) diminutive from Jan (Ян) — Iwan (Иван). Here are some another variants: Янка, Ясь.

 So what? Patronymics are made from the FULL form of the name only, not from some "diminutives", so Olya is right. "Янукович" as a legitimate patronymic is impossible. "Yanovich" exists, "Yanukovich" doesn't.

----------


## Оля

> Pronunciation in Polish manner: stress on the last syllable but one.

 What Polish pronunciation has to do with all that?? I thought we were talking about Russian patronymics.
And, by the way, do Poles have patronymics? They don't.

----------


## gRomoZeka

> I thought we were talking about Russian patronymics.

 I thought we were talking about Yanukovich, who's Ukrainian.  ::

----------


## Оля

> I thought we were talking about Yanukovich, who's Ukrainian.

 Yes, I thought we were talking about Russian and Ukrainian patronymics, and Russian and Ukrainian _surnames_.   ::

----------


## Zaya

> Azraim: А я вообще в детстве думал, что кулич - это отчество такое )

----------


## Funanori

i heard that if the father of the baby is unknown- he or she is given the patrynomic "ivanovich" or "ivanova" and the surname of the mother- is this true?

----------


## it-ogo

> i heard that if the father of the baby is unknown- he or she is given the patrynomic "ivanovich" or "ivanova" and the surname of the mother- is this true?

 AFAIK normally in this case baby is given the patrynomic on the choice of the mother. And the surname of the mother of course.

----------


## Оля

> i heard that if the father of the baby is unknown- he or she is given the patrynomic "ivanovich" or "ivanova" and the surname of the mother- is this true?

 It was. In the XIX century  ::  
And the female patrynomic is not "ivanò*va*" (this is a surname), but "ivàno*vna*".

----------


## Mist

I've always wondered what my name Alyona could be changed for except for Alex. Anyone got any ideas?   ::

----------


## Matroskin Kot

> I've always wondered what my name Alyona could be changed for except for Alex. Anyone got any ideas?

 What, to something more English-sounding? How about 'Allie'?

----------


## Funanori

> Originally Posted by Tamerlane  i heard that if the father of the baby is unknown- he or she is given the patrynomic "ivanovich" or "ivanova" and the surname of the mother- is this true?   AFAIK normally in this case baby is given the patrynomic on the choice of the mother. And the surname of the mother of course.

 in this case the patrynomic is the choice of the mother? so who would the patrynomic be honorific of?

----------


## it-ogo

> in this case the patrynomic is the choice of the mother? so who would the patrynomic be honorific of?

 Ask the mother.  ::

----------


## Funanori

you know- i once met a ukrainain girl whose full name was Svetlana Pavlovich. is this atypical?

----------


## Оля

> you know- i once met a ukrainain girl whose full name was Svetlana Pavlovich. is this atypical?

 What could be atypical about it? Pavl*o*vich was her SURNAME, not a patronymic. Obviously you still can't get the difference.
And actually a *full* name of a Ukrainain or Russian person ALWAYS consists of THREE components: a first name (like Ivan), a patronymic (like Iv*a*novich or P*a*vlovich for male and Iv*a*novna or P*a*vlovna for female) and a surname (like Ivan*o*v(a), or Smirn*o*v(a), or Pavl*o*vich).

----------


## kamka

> Januk (Янук) — Polish (and Belorussian and Ukranian) diminutive from Jan (Ян) — Iwan (Иван). Here are some another variants: Янка, Ясь. 
> .

 it's not Polish  ::  Janek is Polish.

----------


## Funanori

> Originally Posted by Tamerlane  you know- i once met a ukrainain girl whose full name was Svetlana Pavlovich. is this atypical?   What could be atypical about it? Pavl*o*vich was her SURNAME, not a patronymic. Obviously you still can't get the difference.
> And actually a *full* name of a Ukrainain or Russian person ALWAYS consists of THREE components: a first name (like Ivan), a patronymic (like Iv*a*novich or P*a*vlovich for male and Iv*a*novna or P*a*vlovna for female) and a surname (like Ivan*o*v(a), or Smirn*o*v(a), or Pavl*o*vich).

 well apparantly not ALWAYS because her full name was Svetlana Pavlovich and she was from Lviv (or as the polish say Lwow). her surname means son of pavlov, she had no patynomic- if she did it would have been pavlovna. that is why i was asking if her name is atypical- and according to you, it is because she did not have the full 3 components. she only had a first name and a surname (a surname that is very strange for a female, and very strange as a surname at all).

----------


## Оля

> well apparantly not ALWAYS because her full name was Svetlana Pavlovich and she was from Lviv (or as the polish say Lwow). her surname means son of pavlov, she had no patynomic- if she did it would have been pavlovna. that is why i was asking if her name is atypical- and according to you, it is because she did not have the full 3 components. she only had a first name and a surname (a surname that is very strange for a female, and very strange as a surname at all).

 Tamerlane, I am tired of trying to explain anything to you - you are too stubborn and you hear only yourself. 
P.S. Maybe some Ukrainian on this forum tell me if it is possible for a Ukrainian to not have a patynomic.

----------


## Ramil

A Pavlovich surname from Lviv is obviously Jewish. ))) It's the family name, not the name of her father. 
Surnames in Russia (and to a degree in all Slavic languages) don't bear the name of immediate parent even if they happen to be the same, but rather the name of the family founder, the ultimate grandfather of the whole blood-line.  
Thus, *the surname cannot point at your father*.

----------


## Оля

> P.S. Maybe some Ukrainian on this forum tell me if it is possible for a Ukrainian to not have a patynomic

 Well, a Ukrainian native speaker told me that it is not more possible than for a Russian.   

> i was asking if her name is atypical- and according to you, it is because she did not have the full 3 components

 Her name is not atypical at all. By the way, you can find hundreds Svetlana Pavlovich's in Russia, too. And if they don't tell you their patynomic, it does not mean they don't have it.

----------


## Funanori

> A Pavlovich surname from Lviv is obviously Jewish. ))) It's the family name, not the name of her father. 
> Surnames in Russia (and to a degree in all Slavic languages) don't bear the name of immediate parent even if they happen to be the same, but rather the name of the family founder, the ultimate grandfather of the whole blood-line.  
> Thus, *the surname cannot point at your father*.

 nope she is catholic.

----------


## Funanori

> P.S. Maybe some Ukrainian on this forum tell me if it is possible for a Ukrainian to not have a patynomic
> 			
> 		  Well, a Ukrainian native speaker told me that it is not more possible than for a Russian. 
> [quote:20i2dmuj]i was asking if her name is atypical- and according to you, it is because she did not have the full 3 components

 Her name is not atypical at all. By the way, you can find hundreds Svetlana Pavlovich's in Russia, too. And if they don't tell you their patynomic, it does not mean they don't have it.[/quote:20i2dmuj] 
well- i did ask her if she had a middle name, she said no.

----------


## Оля

> well- i did ask her if she had a middle name, she said no.

 I repeat:  *And if they don't tell you their patynomic, it does not mean they don't have it.* 
She doesn't have a patynomic ONLY if she doesn't have a father!!! (if you don't know, I'll tell you that it's physically impossible) 
P.S. If you asked her about a "middle name", she could understand you wrong. If you ask me, I also will tell you that I don't have _a middle name_. I only have a first name, a patynomic, and a surname.

----------


## Funanori

ok calm down!!!    ::

----------


## rockzmom

> ok calm down!!!

 So, Tamerlane.... does this mean you FINALLY and HUMBLY accept what the “natives/experts” on this forum here have been trying to tell you here for the past oh… SEVEN MONTHS?!?  
You do realize, if you give this much lip and back talk (I mean argue or debate "cough, cough") with your CO's... you are going to have a VERY difficult military life. Actually, my dear boy, any life. 
I wish you much luck and keep your head low. 
I am going to miss this thread.   ::

----------

