# Forum Learning Russian Language Translate This!  How do you say "The sacrifice of hiding in a lie" in Russian?

## OceanEyes

Hi there.
I would just like one or two people out there to make sure my Russian is correct.  
I was trying to work on translating "Wrapping myself in a Lie, I sacrifice myself". 
What I ended up with was "катаясь во лжи, я жертвую собой".. (да или нет?) 
It's just that my Russian books and "Myself" Conjugation Tables have me confused. :\
I was under the impression I had to use 'сбой' or 'себя'.. *я не уверен!*     
Any help is much appreciated!
большое спасибо!

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## it-ogo

Well, grammatically the sentence is correct and "собой" is used right. Though it has no sense as words "to wrap" and "to sacrifice" here should be translated somewhat differently. 
To keep a sense I'd translate it as "Утопая во лжи, я гублю себя."

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## Romik

Впутывая себя в ложь, я жертвую собой.
More literary:
Погрязнув во лжи, вредишь себе.
Единожды солгавший, кто тебе поверит?

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## OceanEyes

да? нет? ;]  tattoo.jpg 
(I have another post regarding what I wrote in the picture... just incase there are some out there who like to stay well informed)

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## BleuVert

It looks extremely beautiful and neat, but the letter "п" in the word "купаясь" and the letter "т" in the word "жертвую" are not correct. Also in the word "лжи" л usually is linked with the upper curve of ж, but I don't know, may be it's your own style)

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## gRomoZeka

"П" and "Т" look the same and both are not exactly right. Also "П" does not require a vertical dash above (such a dash is sometimes used above "Т" and below "Ш", but not with other letters).  
"Л" in "лжи" misses its right "leg". The line that connects "л" and "ж" should not be smooth, it must consist of a little hook (right part of "л") and a curve that moves upward (left part of "ж"). Same happend to "ая" in "купаясь" - both letters lost their respective "legs" (there should be two little hooks meeting between them). 
"Б" in "собой" looks unusual - more like a music note than a letter - but it can be attributed to your personal handwriting style, especially when the phrase looks so decorative. 
Overall it looks nice and letters have a pleasant "round" look about them. Not bad at all.  ::  
EDIT: Oh, I think it was "кутаясь", not "купаясь". Then my notes about "п" do not apply.

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## Ramil

The pic below is not an example of penmanship, but merely to illustrate some obvious mistakes:

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## OceanEyes

Thank you BleuVert, gRomoZeka and Ramil! 
You all were very helpful!

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## OceanEyes

Would it be better to use *"кутаться"* or *"тепло одеваться"* instead of *"катаясь"*?
Although I do at least like half of what it-ogo said with the use if *"Утопая"*.
I just want to make sure I correctly convey "hiding" in a lie, "wrapping myself in a lie" amd "being lost" in a lie.

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## Hanna

Can I ask two questions about this, please?   
I seem to remember that you were supposed to put a little line above the "m" letter when I did this at school. But it was not in the examples when I refreshed my skills last year. I assumed that I remembered it wrong. But now I noticed that OceanEyes had used it in her example. How should this be done?? 
Is there a little "bump" before the letter "ж" in cursive? (seems like it, from Ramil's correction) I thought it was not needed for "ж"?

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## it-ogo

> I seem to remember that you were supposed to put a little line above the "m" letter when I did this at school. But it was not in the examples when I refreshed my skills last year. I assumed that I remembered it wrong. But now I noticed that OceanEyes had used it in her example. How should this be done??

 Both ways are correct. These lines (above т and below ш) are old norms, which help much to read the cursive, but they were almost always skipped in a hurry so they are removed even from the contemporary school standards.    

> Is there a little "bump" before the letter "ж" in cursive?

 This "bump" is needed to separate letters (the same is between а-я in the first word).  Л is ended by the line-up and Ж is started by the line-down, so here is the "bump".

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## OceanEyes

> I seem to remember that you were supposed to put a little line above the "m" letter when I did this at school. But it was not in the examples when I refreshed my skills last year. I assumed that I remembered it wrong. But now I noticed that OceanEyes had used it in her example. How should this be done??

 When my friend was teaching me Russian cursive, she would always write out the Russian cursive "т" like a cursive "м" but with a line over it. You'll see the slight connection if you know what a capital cursive "т" looks like. 
Regardless, it's about personal taste. I prefer the cursive "т" with the line over it instead of the normal cursive "т" that looks like an "m". :]

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## OceanEyes

_простите!_ (I already have a similar post of this in another section, but was hoping for more input and advice)  I talked with a Russian professor a few weeks ago and he said to go with *"катаясь во лжи, я жертвую собой"* ... But I've been told that *"катаясь"* essentially means "rolling", which isn't exactly what I want if that's true. I like the rest of it though.  I can elaborate and say"The sacrifice of hiding in a lie" just refers to "One's life is sacrificed when living a lie".  And I've looked into using *"кутаться"* or even *"тепло одеваться"* (wrapping oneself?)  Im just trying to make sure the I end up with a translation that keeps the main idea of what Im talking about.       Thank you! And thanks to those who have already helped me! :]

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## it-ogo

As I told in another topic, the phrase is hardly intelligible. Neither "катаясь", nor "кутаясь" fit the situation, as well as "жертвую".  
"Кутаться" can refer to clothes only, while "жертвовать собой" obviously implies heroism (to sacrifice oneself in the name of high principles or something like) and never anything negative. 
My proposal in previous topic was "Утопая во лжи, я гублю себя", which is not literal translation but keeps a sense instead.  
Or maybe "Ложь затягивает и губит."

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## OceanEyes

it-ogo, could you better define "Утопая во лжи, я гублю себя" и "Ложь затягивает и губит" for me so that I understand them correctly?

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## it-ogo

> it-ogo, could you better define "Утопая во лжи, я гублю себя" и "Ложь затягивает и губит" for me so that I understand them correctly?

 Literally they are:"Sinking in the lie, I ruin myself." and "Lie sucks under and ruins." correspondingly. 
They are the best approaches to the same idea I was able to think of. 
It is always a big problem to translate aphorisms.  ::

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## OceanEyes

я согласен...
And yet again I have another thought: Is 'Утопая' a participle of 'to sink'? Or is it just understood or a different word altogether? 
I was under the impression I might be able to use 'жить' (in the right form of course) instead, while still keeping 'я жертвую собой' in hopes of saying "Living in a lie, I sacrifice myself".

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## it-ogo

> And yet again I have another thought: Is 'Утопая' a participle of 'to sink'? Or is it just understood or a different word altogether?

 It is a participle of verb "утопать", which has a direct meaning "to sink, to drown", but it is used mostly in indirect sense. Google translates it as "wallow".   

> I was under the impression I might be able to use 'жить' (in the right form of course) instead, while still keeping 'я жертвую собой' in hopes of saying "Living in a lie, I sacrifice myself".

 Yes, to use "жить" is a good way too. For example "Жить во лжи - себя губить" that means "To live in lie is to ruin oneself" and looks much more like a Russian aphorism. Though "жертвовать" will never work here as there is no way in Russian to give a negative sense to the phrase "жертвовать собой". In Russian "жертвовать собой" means only "to be a hero".

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## OceanEyes

сейчас я понимаю.
All I really need to do now is find a way to express "sacrifice" in terms of me sacrificing myself and learning to live a better life.. but doesnt necessairly depend on heroism, higher principles or being godlike. Still, im not looking for way to convey negativity or even being positive. It's just all about life and understanding... maybe optimism?
Anyway, are there any other words or phrases left that you can think of?

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## Demonic_Duck

I won't be able to translate, but it may help if you explain _exactly_ what you mean. Is the lie supposed to be a "noble lie" which is detrimental to yourself but told to keep someone else from harm? Is the "sacrificing" the sacrificing of your own soul by becoming tainted by this lie, or is it something else? How can this lie lead to "learning to live a better life"? I'm totally confused. 
Also, in cursive Cyrillic, I didn't know that the little downwards stroke was to be used with ж, I only thought it was needed with л, м and я.

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## it-ogo

I am afraid I missed completely logical connection between sacrificing and optimism.  ::  
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offtop: Why do usually someone want to say an aphorism in foreign language? Normally it is a good idea when that language fits that aphorism best, that is when it is a native phrase for that language and keeps its spirit. So, here is an advice: if you want a good phrase in Russian, find it in Russian sources, not translate.   
Russian is absolutely not the best language for the straightforward moralizing, BTW.

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## OceanEyes

*To it-ogo:* 
I absolutely agree with you. Though my knowledge of Russian isn't as advanced as yours, I still understand that English to Russian translations can be a complete mess. 
And that's exactly the case here.    

> Russian is absolutely not the best language for the straightforward moralizing, BTW.

 It's almost as if that's TOO true. ;O   *To Demonic_Duck:*  

> Is the "sacrificing" the sacrificing of your own soul by becoming tainted by this lie?

 That's essentially the main idea. 
I would only add that it's also about living a life worth living; living with meaning; not wasting ones life in a lie; understanding how lies and lieing to yourself affects your life. 
"The sacrifice of hiding in a lie" refers to you losing your ability to live a meaningful life becase you are lieing to yourself and/or actually living a lie. Which can double as a reminder: to live life the way you know you should; to live life to its fullest.   *To any and all:*
As for the meaning behind my entire investigation behind all of this would be that I am planning on getting a tattoo of what Im talking about.
All I want is one tattoo. I want it to be in my own Russian cursive and to be of something that means a lot to me. 
A few months after my friend Алина started teaching me Russian (and how to write in cursive too) I thought "I finally know exactly what I want my tattoo to be". (still... jut like in English, im positive there are sayings in Russian that describe "ones efforts being futile" or "somebody doing something even though there's no possibility of success" in some form or fashion) :\   *Nevertheless, thanks for the help!* (... and Im sure *трудно* would be a prefect word to describe me)

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## CoffeeCup

> Why do usually someone want to say an aphorism in foreign language?  Normally it is a good idea when that language fits that aphorism best,  that is when it is a native phrase for that language and keeps its  spirit. So, here is an advice: if you want a good phrase in Russian,  find it in Russian sources, not translate.

 Taking into account all similar threads here the answer is that people like to make a tattoo in a language nobody around can understand. If the people around were able to see and read the tattoo they would do it automatically and would not pay a lot of attention to it. But if the tattoo were in an unknown language they would stumble upon it and ask the question "What does it mean?" If it were a real Russian saying the direct translation to English would be clumsy and fail the purpose to amuse the person seeing the tattoo. But if the tattoo were in clumsy Russian it translation would turn into highly poetical English saying and makes the WOW factor for the person seeing the tattoo.

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## OceanEyes

> Taking into account all similar threads here the answer is that people like to make a tattoo in a language nobody around can understand. If the people around were able to see and read the tattoo they would do it automatically and would not pay a lot of attention to it. But if the tattoo were in an unknown language they would stumble upon it and ask the question "What does it mean?" If it were a real Russian saying the direct translation to English would be clumsy and fail the purpose to amuse the person seeing the tattoo. But if the tattoo were in clumsy Russian it translation would turn into highly poetical English saying and makes the WOW factor for the person seeing the tattoo.

 That's a good point, one I've thought about a lot and been told about quite a few times. Though I've been finding it hard to research my ideas and get direct Russian results rather than trying to force the translation of my English words into Russian words. 
Regardless, I'll still keep trying to find something I can work with.

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## it-ogo

Here is a classical quotation from Chekhov:
"Тля ест траву, ржа - железо, а лжа - душу" 
Literally: Aphid eats/cankers/corrodes grass, rust - iron, lie - soul.

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## Demonic_Duck

> Taking into account all similar threads here the answer is that people like to make a tattoo in a language nobody around can understand. If the people around were able to see and read the tattoo they would do it automatically and would not pay a lot of attention to it. But if the tattoo were in an unknown language they would stumble upon it and ask the question "What does it mean?" If it were a real Russian saying the direct translation to English would be clumsy and fail the purpose to amuse the person seeing the tattoo. But if the tattoo were in clumsy Russian it translation would turn into highly poetical English saying and makes the WOW factor for the person seeing the tattoo.

 On the contrary, if I was going to get a tattoo of any foreign language, I'd prefer it to be poetic and beautiful in that original language, even if it was somewhat clumsy in English. Besides, it's always possible to translate idiomatically, which makes the English translation sound natural and fluent. If the translation includes something specific and essential to the culture which speaks that particular language, that only adds more layers of meaning and leads to a more interesting story. 
Besides, people often desire authenticity in their tattoos. If someone has a tattoo of a Chinese symbol that means "supermarket", they (and their non-Chinese friends) won't know the difference from the symbol that means "spirituality". But 99% of people would still choose the tattoo meaning "spirituality", even if it looked less nice than the one meaning "supermarket". Why? Because they want it to be authentic. (Of course this may not apply to you, OceanEyes, I'm not one to tell you what is the best tattoo for you. That's something personal. And I'm not one to talk anyway, the only tattoo I have has no deeper meaning than my favourite band!)   

> Here is a classical quotation from Chekhov:
> "Тля ест траву, ржа - железо, а лжа - душу" 
> Literally: Aphid eats/cankers/corrodes grass, rust - iron, lie - soul.

 Sounds like straightforward moralising to me  ::  
Also why is it «лжа»? I can't see that in the declensions of «ложь»...

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## OceanEyes

> On the contrary, if I was going to get a tattoo of any foreign language, I'd prefer it to be poetic and beautiful in that original language, even if it was somewhat clumsy in English. Besides, it's always possible to translate idiomatically, which makes the English translation sound natural and fluent. If the translation includes something specific and essential to the culture which speaks that particular language, that only adds more layers of meaning and leads to a more interesting story. 
> Besides, people often desire authenticity in their tattoos. If someone has a tattoo of a Chinese symbol that means "supermarket", they (and their non-Chinese friends) won't know the difference from the symbol that means "spirituality". But 99% of people would still choose the tattoo meaning "spirituality", even if it looked less nice than the one meaning "supermarket". Why? Because they want it to be authentic. (Of course this may not apply to you, OceanEyes, I'm not one to tell you what is the best tattoo for you. That's something personal. And I'm not one to talk anyway, the only tattoo I have has no deeper meaning than my favourite band!)

 You're a thinker. :]
You make a few good points. Having it in Russian has its own good characteristics and having it in English has it's own good characteristics too.
Over the course of several months I've been weighing my options, and I seem to be coming back to "Ya, I should probably do it in English" more than I would like to admit.
But still, using Russian (especially cursive) is a better idea to me because Russian is different to me (and to 99.87% of the people around me), and Russian cursive has always been it's very own art form to me. I love the uniqueness... That's when I have to factor in "not necessarily being able to convey what I want to convey in Russian".  
In the end, I'll either end up being able to find the right set of words that I can work with or.. I wont end up being able to find the right set of words that I can work with.

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## it-ogo

> Sounds like straightforward moralising to me

 As a first approach - yeah, but as usual with classical quotations there is much more behind if one knows the source.   ::  It was not by Chekhov directly but by his fictitious hero. 
BTW Most well-known collection of moralizing in Russian classic literature often can be found on humor sites. Warning: no way of adequate translation.   

> Also why is it «лжа»? I can't see that in the declensions of «ложь»...

 That fictitious hero found that it sounds better. More aphoristic. Тля-ржа-лжа is a kind of rhyme.

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## OceanEyes

Here's another one of my attempts:
"погружённый в ложи, я не могу жить с собой"  
возможно... ?

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## it-ogo

Nope.

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## Inf

> ложи

 There's such word as "ложе" (old form/archaism of "bed"). "Ложи" is a plural "ложе"  ::  (but i never met "ложе" used in plural form).
And "masonic lodge" is "массонская ложа" (so, "lodges" -> "ложи").

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## OceanEyes

That was just me putting ложь into the wrong plural. :]
I didnt want to stick with the singular, and instead I wanted to use "lies".
What would be the correct plural? "лежит"?

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## Demonic_Duck

ложь - Wiktionary 
Has all the declensions.

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## alexB

In spite of what Wiktionary says *ложь* has no plural. It’s hard to say why but there are some, if not many, words in Russian that lack a number of their forms. It can sometimes be almost annoying, but on the other hand using the wrong imaginary forms may produce comic effect like, for instance, in this sentence  "погружённый в *ложи*, я не могу жить с собой"

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## alexsms

> That fictitious hero found that it sounds better. More aphoristic. Тля-ржа-лжа is a kind of rhyme.

 
It turns out there was the old archaic form "лжа" (Намеренное искажение истины; неправда, ложь.). It existed in Old Russian, here is the link:   лжа

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## OceanEyes

> In spite of what Wiktionary says *ложь* has no plural. It’s hard to say why but there are some, if not many, words in Russian that lack a number of their forms.

 Would it then be best to stick with "погружённый в *ложь*, я не могу жить с собой" where *ложь* is just understood as *lies*? 
Immersed in a lie...
Immersed in lies...

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## Demonic_Duck

wouldn't it be в лжи anyway = prepositional case?

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## alexB

> ...*ложь* is just understood as *lies*?

 I think they are one and the same, completely identical to each other.  

> wouldn't it be в лжи anyway = prepositional case?

   No way! Don’t even think about it!
   Well, it might look something like that in a similar sentence, say: *“**спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с самим собой**”*, but note the additional *o* in *во лжи*. I don’t know if they teach you this in grammar books, but we add the "*o*" to make the sound flow. Without it it’s almost a tongue-twister whereas in *в грязи*, for example, your *в* sounds just fine, all in accordance with the rule you may have made your assumption on.

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## OceanEyes

> I think they are one and the same, completely identical to each other.

 Fantastic! I believe I've (maybe) found the right words to use. :] 
So then "*погружённый во лжи, я не могу жить с собой*" can be read as "Immersed in lies, I cannot live with myself"?
Also, "*спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с самим собой*" can be read as "Hiding in a lie, I cannot be at peace with myself"? 
alexB, is "*самим*" absolutely necessary? Could I say "*спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с собой*"?

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## alexB

> *Would* it then be best to stick with...

  

> *wouldn't* it be...

  ::   ::  Sorry, couldn’t help but remember:
  "_Professor_, _without knowing precisely_ what the _danger is_, _would you_ say _it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open_ and feast on the _goo inside_?" 
  "Yes I *would*, Kent." *.*

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## Demonic_Duck

> No way! Don’t even think about it!
>    Well, it might look something like that in a similar sentence, say: *“**спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с самим собой**”*, but note the additional *o* in *во лжи*. I don’t know if they teach you this in grammar books, but we add the "*o*" to make the sound flow. Without it it’s almost a tongue-twister whereas in *в грязи*, for example, your *в* sounds just fine, all in accordance with the rule you may have made your assumption on.

 Yes I do know of this rule, I just always forget it (also I didn't know it applied to the consonant cluster «лж» specifically... is there a list somewhere of the consonant clusters this rule applies to?)

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## Lampada

_Погрязши во лжи, в грязи, в долгах..._

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## alexB

to OceanEyes  

> Погрязши во лжи, в грязи, в долгах..

      That’s the thought. *Погрязши во лжи*,…it seems, would fit right in to make the ultimate *“Погрязши (or Погрязший) во лжи, я не могу жить в мире с самим собой”.*
  Yes, to add *самим* would be a change for the better. Don’t you think the English _”I cannot live with myself”_ looks a bit awkward either?

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## OceanEyes

My only concerns are using *Погрязши (or Погрязший)* ("trapped" or "caught in" I suppose?) which I dont necessairly want to use... and having to insert "*самим*". 
What's the exact use and meaning of it? Im only asking because I've havent come across that word yet. :] 
I was perfectly fine with using "Immersed in lies, I cannot live with myself", which is the one I like the most.
And to me, _"I cannot live with myself"_ looks perfectly normal.

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## gRomoZeka

Ok, I missed this discussion.  ::  Your original attempt ("Кутаясь во лжи...") gave me an impression that you'd intended to say something like "Скрываясь за завесой лжи я теряю себя" (Hiding behind the curtain of lie I lose myself" (as in losing your identity). But I like the version with "погрязши" a lot.

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## alexB

> I was perfectly fine with using "Immersed in lies, I cannot live with myself", which is the one I like the most.
> And to me, _"I cannot live with myself"_ looks perfectly normal.

   Okay, that would do. "Погружённый в ложь (not во лжи), я не могу жить в мире с собой". 
  But you might take a shot with another one though: *“Запутавшись во лжи, не в силах больше быть в мире с самим собой”.*
  The first phrase relates the feeling of hopelessness of your ever getting out of that puddle of lies you were thrown into against your will. You are stuck in there unable to free yourself. Not a perfect motto to live by. While in the second one you’ve been searching your way probing here and there for the right path, but sh**t happens, you took the wrong turn, you made a mistake, you got entangled in lies, you have gotten fed up with all this and you are ready to break free.
  Yes, definitely the second one, as is, no changes allowed any more. ::

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## OceanEyes

> Yes, definitely the second one, as is, no changes allowed any more.

  
Well... lol
I'll be choosing one of these: *Погружённый во лжи, я не могу жить с собой*(saying "in lies" in this instance makes me feel better) *Скрываясь за завесой лжи, я теряю себя* 
And how would you define _Погрязши/Погрязший?_ 
When it comes to *Погрязши/Погрязший во лжи, я не могу жить в мире с самим собой* and *Запутавшись во лжи, не в силах больше быть в мире с самим собой*, I just dont like them as much as the two above. 
For me, it's all about the simplicity and elegance... and being able to get the Russian and English that I want.

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## alexB

They are all basically the same to me and most of the folks on the planet, and I repeat, your plural English *lies* cannot be plural in Russian. It may look like plural (во лжи, *за** завесой** лжи**)* but it’s singular anyway. 
  You may take a look at a similar thread that was here a while back How do you saw Sweet Dreams in Russian?
 Let me quote myself from there  ::  

> If she thinks having a Russian tattoo on her arm would be good for her dreams, be that her way. In any case, Americans will see that as something mysterious with Russian flavor to it and a stray Russian stumbling upon her foreign arm may shed a tear or two on seeing a grammatically correct and possibly meaningful insignia implemented in dear to his heart Cyrillic script

 . 
  I think it still holds true to this very day.  ::  ::  ::

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## OceanEyes

Alright then, singular it is and singular is how it shall stay! :] (_We definitely have this part straightened out now_) 
Everything else has pretty much been decided. 
And thanks for all of the help! 
Now I am just going to wait and see how everything works out :]

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## OceanEyes

> Ok, I missed this discussion.  Your original attempt ("Кутаясь во лжи...") gave me an impression that you'd intended to say something like "Скрываясь за завесой лжи *я теряю себя*" (Hiding behind the curtain of lie I lose myself" (as in losing your identity). But I like the version with "погрязши" a lot.

 Today has been an interesting day. :]
After thinking about all of my ideas, writing out everything in my classes instead of actually doing my work and spending all of my free time weighing my options, I decided to use some of what you said (the end result being: _Погружённый во лжи, я теряю себя)._ I prefer your idea over the reflexive form. :]  
Now I know exactly what I want. :]

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