# Forum About Russia Society  Controversial Problems in Russian and Some Other Societies

## UhOhXplode

This is an off topic from Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia
__________________________________________________  ___________  
This is the most intelligent thread I've read about Snowden.
Snowden is free to leave the Transit Area now and enter Russia.  ::  Сноуден получил справку ФМС о разрешении пребывания в  Snowden received a certificate of FMS to be accepted in Russia - source - the Russian newspaper 
My opinions: Snowden is very dedicated to politics and that's cool. PRISM did violate the 4th amendment of our Constitution. But it's a useful program.
Since we have the technology to spy on everybody then that's what is happening. And if somebody stopped it, then it could still happen again. So there is really no way to stop it.
Snowden should be very happy that Russia accepted him. It does not help Russia for him to be there but Russia is strong and they are willing to let him stay.  :: 
Btw, President Putin is not weak. He is a great man and it's President Obama who looks weak.   *About other issues I read in this thread:* America is called the strongest and richest nation on Earth. Does that make it the best? A person can stay home all day and play video games, watch movies, swim, eat, study, and play tennis. But do we need that much?
The "best" nation on Earth is the one they are happy living in and that's not always the one they were born in. So I wonder if Snowden was really happy living in America. There are lots of reasons not to be.
I live in a safe place but I've read about all the crime, race riots, flash mobs, and other things in the news. I've even been to some of the cities and the people there are scary!  :: 
When I see some of the worse pictures of Russia, they still look better than the worse pictures of America. Maybe Snowden saw the same pictures.
America is not the best country and Americans are not the best people. 
Well, no country is perfect and every country has problems so the only thing that really matters is if somebody is happy living there. And I think Snowden wants a perfection that doesn't exist.
But Russia is an awesome country and I hope he will be happy there.  ::  I know I would!

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## Deborski

> But Russia is an awesome country and I hope he will be happy there.  I know I would!

 Unless you happen to be gay, of course.  Russia is not a good place right now to be gay.

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## Eledhwen

And will not.

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## UhOhXplode

> Unless you happen to be gay, of course.  Russia is not a good place right now to be gay.

 Yeah, I kinda noticed that, lol. That's cool! They can leave all those people in the USA.  ::  I really don't understand why they want to be gay anyway.
Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades. We never go to those or even watch them.

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## Deborski

> Yeah, I kinda noticed that, lol. That's cool! They can leave all those people in the USA.  I really don't understand why they want to be gay anyway.
> Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades. We never go to those or even watch them.

 I have many close friends who are gay and lesbian.  Not only do I go to the parades, I proudly support my friends and I am happy to have the freedom to do so.  The US never WAS a "Christian" nation although right-wing religio-fascists are doing their utmost to turn it into a religious totalitarian state.  You have the right to be Christian here, but you do NOT have the right to force ME to adhere to your beliefs. 
People don't "WANT" to be gay.  Who would willingly choose to be attacked and hated their whole life?  They are born gay.  It's in their DNA.  I expect that you and others will disagree, but I've heard your arguments before, so don't bother because I will only block and ignore you.  You will certainly gain lots of support for your beliefs in Russia, I am sorry to say.  But you will also discover, perhaps someday, that beating the hell out of people just because they are different than you is WRONG.  Right now, it's just gay people who are persecuted.  Later on, perhaps others can be added to that list.  Hitler also started out that way.   
If you support actions like this...  36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See 
...then I am very sorry for you, but I am a lot MORE sorry for the young people who are being beaten and killed by ignorant, homophobic haters like you. 
I agree with Putin about Snowden.  That does not mean I am in lockstep with everything else he does.  Not by a LONG SHOT.

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## Seraph

> Yeah, I kinda noticed that, lol. That's cool! They can leave all those people in the USA.  I really don't understand why they want to be gay anyway.
> Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades. We never go to those or even watch them.

   There is no doubt in my mind that America has changed drastically over the past few decades.  But there are still places that Huck Finn would feel right at home.  Just don't tell anyone, or they'll ruin it.

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## Doomer

Gay parades in my opinion are public actions of minorities that supposed to support "rights" of that minority group. These parades have huge impact on social life of all social groups
I dare say that the same level of impact would be delivered by let's say neo-nazi parades (usually to show importance of one particular race)
Although some social groups tolerate gay parades and and some social groups tolerate nazi parades, the majority wins practically all the time. 
We can debate on and on but reality check shows that majority of social groups in Russia do not tolerate gay parades, as well, as nazi parades. 
Social groups in the US I would say split in half between gay supporters and gay haters (there is nothing black and white here, of course) that makes gay parades in the US very possible, but at the same time nazi parades is a taboo (however this doesn't make white racism and black racism less real) 
You can always find people who would say: "what happened in Russia on gay parade is a bad thing" and people who would say: "what happened in Russia on gay parade is a good thing" 
But you shouldn't say: "what happened in Russia on gay parade is a bad thing because it doesn't happen in the US", you would be just one step closer to saying something like "There is only one true God - Allah and people who don't believe in this should not live on Earth"
There are many things that are different in different countries and that's life. You can try to change it but be ready to face consequences.

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## Deborski

When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist. 
    When they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat. 
    When they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a trade unionist. 
    When they came for the Jews,
    I remained silent;
    I wasn't a Jew. 
    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out.

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## Hanna

> Yeah, I kinda noticed that, lol. That's cool! They can leave all those people in the USA.  I really don't understand why they want to be gay anyway.
> Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades. We never go to those or even watch them.

 Totally agree. Russia's got the right end of the stick. People's sexuality should be a private matter, not something to display in parades, in particularly for gay people, since it's offensive to many.  
It's one thing to persecute people for their sexuality (wrong), but quite another to allow a minority to ram their peculiar and potentially offensive sexuality down the throat of people who find it offensive, as happens with gay pride parades. I'm against pornography as well, for that matter. Sexuality should be private.

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## Doomer

> When the Nazis came for the communists,
>     I remained silent;
>     I was not a communist. 
>     When they locked up the social democrats,
>     I remained silent;
>     I was not a social democrat. 
>     When they came for the trade unionists,
>     I did not speak out;
>     I was not a trade unionist. 
> ...

 Does it mean that the very same thing happens with gay parades right now?
Like: "I'm not a gay - I don't care about the parades"?

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## Deborski

> Does it mean that the very same thing happens with gay parades right now?
> Like: "I'm not a gay - I don't care about the parades"?

 It's one thing to "not care" about the parades, it's another thing to encourage violence against people because they are gay (or black, or Jewish, or Russian, etc, etc etc)  I am referring to this:  36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See 
Also, this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzcgy5NkeaE
Note that the dudes carrying the whips and attacking, beating, hitting gay protesters are wearing t-shirts which say "by the word of GOD." 
Seems very Nazi to me.  Just saying.  I do not expect anyone on this site to agree with me.  But then, I don't care.  I am used to having an unpopular opinion.  On the other hand, I'm a loyal friend - unlike many in the world today.  I would fight to the death to protect my friends, whether they are gay, or Russian, or whatever.

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## Doomer

> It's one thing to "not care" about the parades, it's another thing to encourage violence against people because they are gay (or black, or Jewish, or Russian, etc, etc etc)  I am referring to this:  36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See

 Yes, but you just showed what happened to people who "not care" about nazis, shouldn't people "start to care" as an opposite option?

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## Doomer

> Note that the dudes carrying the whips and attacking, beating, hitting gay protesters are wearing t-shirts which say "by the word of GOD." 
> Seems very Nazi to me.  Just saying.

 Very high chance that they are 
One minority fights another minority 
I remember a movie, where Bruce Willis stays on the street in the middle of "black neighborhood" wearing a sign that says - "I hate niggers". If I remember correctly he almost got killed, for wearing the sign(sounds awfully familiar when we talk about parades of any kind), so "if you happen to be a white guy - don't go the US", right, Deb?

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## Deborski

> Yes, but you just showed what happened to people who "not care" about nazis, shouldn't people "start to care" as an opposite option?

 If you're afraid that gays will become Nazis... I'm afraid all I can do is laugh!   ::

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## Deborski

> Very high chance that they are 
> One minority fights another minority 
> I remember a movie, where Bruce Willis stays on the street in the middle of "black neighborhood" wearing a sign that says - "I hate niggers". If I remember correctly he almost got killed, for wearing the sign(sounds awfully familiar when we talk about parades of any kind), so "if you happen to be a white guy - don't go the US", right, Deb?

 I'm not saying that it is WISE to hold a gay parade in the middle of a city where the majority of people despise gay people and think they should be executed.
But that doesn't excuse the actions of those who attacked and beat them, does it, Doomer? 
By the way, I found this study fascinating and revealing (even though it confirmed something I've known for a long time):  Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn | Psychology Today 
Anyway, I have no wish to further derail the Snowden thread into a debate about gay rights.  As far as Russia goes, gays have no rights.  But it saddens me that people are so easily distracted from the REAL ISSUES, by silly things like trying to control what others can or can't do in bed.

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## UhOhXplode

> Totally agree. Russia's got the right end of the stick. People's sexuality should be a private matter, not something to display in parades, in particularly for gay people, since it's offensive to many. 
> It's one thing to persecute people for their sexuality (wrong), but quite another to allow a minority to ram their peculiar and potentially offensive sexuality down the throat of people who find it offensive, as happens with gay pride parades. I'm against pornography as well, for that matter. Sexuality should be private.

 Yeah, I don't like seeing people getting hurt but sex is a private thing and there's no reason to have it in a parade.    

> I have many close friends who are gay and lesbian.  Not only do I go to the parades, I proudly support my friends and I am happy to have the freedom to do so.  The US never WAS a "Christian" nation although right-wing religio-fascists are doing their utmost to turn it into a religious totalitarian state.  You have the right to be Christian here, but you do NOT have the right to force ME to adhere to your beliefs. 
> People don't "WANT" to be gay.  Who would willingly choose to be attacked and hated their whole life?  They are born gay.  It's in their DNA.  I expect that you and others will disagree, but I've heard your arguments before, so don't bother because I will only block and ignore you.  You will certainly gain lots of support for your beliefs in Russia, I am sorry to say.  But you will also discover, perhaps someday, that beating the hell out of people just because they are different than you is WRONG.  Right now, it's just gay people who are persecuted.  Later on, perhaps others can be added to that list.  Hitler also started out that way.   
> If you support actions like this...  36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See 
> ...then I am very sorry for you, but I am a lot MORE sorry for the young people who are being beaten and killed by ignorant, homophobic haters like you. 
> I agree with Putin about Snowden.  That does not mean I am in lockstep with everything else he does.  Not by a LONG SHOT.

 Okay, I didn't write that very well.
"Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades." -- That's what grandad said. I was just repeating it.
"We never go to those or even watch them." -- My parents never take me to gay parades. That's not a topic they even want to discuss. But I'm not gay so that's cool. 
Gay bashing is just wrong in so many ways! I've heard that happens in public schools too but I've never seen it because I'm in home-school and it never happens here.
And no, I don't have the right to tell anyone what to believe. Religion is personal. People have to decide what they believe about life. 
Me? I'm a Christian and I believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and that there were dinosaurs and there could be people living on exoplanets in space somewhere. Grandad is a Christian too but he has a different way of believing.  
About President Putin. I already said in my first post that no country is perfect. So he's not perfect but I think he's doing a good job... better than President Obama. My little brother could do a better job than Obama.

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## Doomer

> If you're afraid that gays will become Nazis... I'm afraid all I can do is laugh!

 When people cannot find valid arguments to support their believes they start picking on opponents, for example laughing at them 
Just saying

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## Doomer

> But that doesn't excuse the actions of those who attacked and beat them, does it, Doomer?

 I don't think it excuses them, no
But I don't think we should blame one side and not to blame the other, as you were trying at the beginning.

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## Deborski

> When people cannot find valid arguments to support their believes they start picking on opponents, for example laughing at them 
> Just saying

 Doomer, it isn't that I can't find a valid argument, it's that I think your supposition is just laughable.  Please don't take it personally.  I'm not laughing at you, just at the idea that you think gays are like Nazis!  I am picturing Nazis in rainbow SS uniforms now and laughing my butt off!  But not laughing at you.  gay_nazis.jpg

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## Deborski

> I don't think it excuses them, no
> But I don't think we should blame one side and not to blame the other, as you were trying at the beginning.

 Doomer, we are never going to agree on this subject, and that is fine with me.  But you live in the US now, not Russia, so surely you have had to do some thinking about this subject.

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## Deborski

> Yeah, I don't like seeing people getting hurt but sex is a private thing and there's no reason to have it in a parade.    
> Okay, I didn't write that very well.
> "Grandad said that America was a Christian country but now it's not. They let people do almost anything here. Even gay parades." -- That's what grandad said. I was just repeating it.
> "We never go to those or even watch them." -- My parents never take me to gay parades. That's not a topic they even want to discuss. But I'm not gay so that's cool. 
> Gay bashing is just wrong in so many ways! I've heard that happens in public schools too but I've never seen it because I'm in home-school and it never happens here.
> And no, I don't have the right to tell anyone what to believe. Religion is personal. People have to decide what they believe about life. 
> Me? I'm a Christian and I believe the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and that there were dinosaurs and there could be people living on exoplanets in space somewhere. Grandad is a Christian too but he has a different way of believing.  
> About President Putin. I already said in my first post that no country is perfect. So he's not perfect but I think he's doing a good job... better than President Obama. My little brother could do a better job than Obama.

 Fair enough!  
I haven't met your little brother though, so I will have to reserve judgement.  There are many things I like about Obama, and many things I don't like.  I prefer him over George W. Bush, certainly, but he is not exactly Abraham Lincoln either.

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## Doomer

> Doomer, we are never going to agree on this subject, and that is fine with me.  But you live in the US now, not Russia, so surely you have had to do some thinking about this subject.

 Well, about "born this way" stuff
Vision of two kissing men makes me sick and I want to puke 
I'm fine with two kissing women though 
IDK what good old Freud would make out of this but I guess "I'm born this way" and I don't want to see "vision of two kissing men" in real life, so I would always be against of that kind of "social activity", these things I'm sure of and they are plain and simple for me, the rest is propaganda of different kinds

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## Deborski

> Well, about "born this way" stuff
> Vision of two kissing men makes me sick and I want to puke 
> I'm fine with two kissing women though 
> IDK what good old Freud would make out of this but I guess "I'm born this way" and I don't want to see "vision of two kissing men" in real life, so I would always be against of that kind of "social activity", these things I'm sure of and they are plain and simple for me, the rest is propaganda of different kinds

 I was taught to think that way too.
But I learned, over the years, that it isn't that simple.
Like I said, I have many friends who are gay and lesbian.  No one would CHOOSE to go through the hell they lived through.  Many of them are shunned by their families.  They have very hard, very tragic lives.  
But you don't have to understand them or even agree with me about this.  What I object to, is people who actively support violence against others because they are gay.

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## Doomer

gay parades create violence, at least in Russia. And gay parades participants are well aware of that fact, so it seems that they get what they wanted

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## Deborski

> gay parades create violence, at least in Russia. And gay parades participants are well aware of that fact, so it seems that they get what they wanted

 Like I said, we can agree to disagree.

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## Paul G.

> If you're afraid that gays will become Nazis... I'm afraid all I can do is laugh!

 Ah, really?

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## Deborski

> Ah, really?

 LOL... Paul, I think this is what some people are afraid of:

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## scotcher

That's like blaming theft on people with possessions. Gay pride doesn't cause violence, what causes violence is the state telling thick bigotted troglodyte scum that they may attack a minority with impunity.

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## Doomer

> That's like blaming theft on people with possessions. Gay pride doesn't cause violence, what causes violence is the state telling thick bigotted troglodyte scum that they may attack a minority with impunity.

 You are wrong on the root of the problem
The state doesn't want any kind of violence but violence still happens and something should be done about it.
Russian officials trying to pass a law that would forbid any gay propaganda (which includes gay parades), that should solve a problem with public violence at least for now, obviously it won't solve the hidden part of the problem
After that different approaches might be taken: one of them is to create more tolerance in social majority which seems to be very hard right now 
BTW "gay pride" is the US creation which is among other things (like "American democracy", for example) seems to be actively propagated in the whole world by the US, sometimes even by force. There is no unified opinion that this is a good thing 
"gay pride" is not the only "pride" in the US and the whole "pride" term is heavily overused in the US right now, especially by ignorant and stupid people it also became a coping mechanism to justify the means of some questionable actions, to give you an example: 
we have a black thug and a white thug
so when police arrests both and says these guys are thugs two things may happen:
1. everybody novadays speculates on police brutality, this speculation became a coping mechanism for some outlaws when they try to reach out to press to play on this "socially sensitive" subject
2. there is no doubt gonna be a question: is this black guy called a thug because he's a thug or because he's black? This is also "socially sensitive" subject and also a coping mechanism for some black thugs
3. "gay rights" is another social hysteria right now and it's fresh from the oven, mass media "писают кипятком" when they have something to brag about on this subject

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## Eric C.

I don't think discrimination in any of its forms is good; but following this logic there should be straight parades as well.

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## Doomer

> I don't think discrimination in any of its forms is good; but following this logic there should be straight parades as well.

 And parades of "whistleblowers" led by Mr. Snowden. They can have "I'm leaking and I'm proud" as their motto  ::

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## UhOhXplode

I don't like that people get bashed but I looked at this article again. There are some serious problems. 36 Photos From Russia That Everyone Needs To See  *31. Meanwhile, Russian lawmakers passed a bill barring same-sex foreign couples from adopting Russian children.*
The author is using the gay bashing to support letting gay Americans adopt Russian kids. That's way wrong! Russia is protecting those kids and they should protect them! Gay couple accused of sexually abusing adopted Russian boy for years — RT News Another adopted Russian boy beaten to death in US — RT USA 
I support the ban on USA adoptions of Russian kids 100%.
I also support the Russian Gay Progaganda law. There is no reason to parade again if they already know what happens when they do that.  
Anyway, all those things are Russian issues for Russia to decide about and the rest of the world should not interfere. Our country already interferes way too much and it doesn't help anybody except America.
I don't get why any country wants to be like America. Tons of horrible things are happening in our country.  
Back to Snowden. Yeah, we had a huge cookout at the lake today and I didn't see the news till we got home. So, Snowden will still have to wait longer. But he stayed there that long and didn't have to change his clothes? That's freedom!  ::

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## Deborski

> 31. Meanwhile, Russian lawmakers passed a bill barring same-sex foreign couples from adopting Russian children.
> The author is using the gay bashing to support letting gay Americans adopt Russian kids. That's way wrong! Russia is protecting those kids and they should protect them!
> Gay couple accused of sexually abusing adopted Russian boy for years — RT News
> Another adopted Russian boy beaten to death in US — RT USA 
> I support the ban on USA adoptions of Russian kids 100%.
> I also support the Russian Gay Progaganda law. There is no reason to parade again if they already know what happens when they do that. 
> Anyway, all those things are Russian issues for Russia to decide about and the rest of the world should not interfere. Our country already interferes way too much and it doesn't help anybody except America.
> I don't get why any country wants to be like America. Tons of horrible things are happening in our country. 
> Back to Snowden. Yeah, we had a huge cookout at the lake today and I didn't see the news till we got home. So, Snowden will still have to wait longer. But he stayed there that long and didn't have to change his clothes? That's freedom!

 
It isn't just gay parents who abuse kids in the United States.  There was a Russian boy adopted by right wing Christian parents as well.  They didn't like him, so they sent him home to Moscow on a plane, all by himself.  The issue of adopting Russian kids is a complex one, but it's unfair to target ONLY gay parents.  In my personal experience, some of the kids from gay families (and yeah, I happen to know some) turned out better adjusted than some of the kids from extremely religious homes, which believe in things like "spare the rod and spoil the child" (ie, beat your child to drive out the "spirit of satan").  You can argue that with me if you want, but my uncle was a televangelist, I was raised in a strict religious home, and I can tell you some personal stories about Christian, heterosexual families that would freak you completely out. 
Regarding the "gay propaganda" laws - I'm sorry you support laws which make it a crime for gay couples to kiss in public, or for anyone to even discuss the issue of gay rights.  All this is doing is forcing the issue underground again, rather than making any significant change.  Sweeping things under the rug is never a real solution.  Things will only fester and get worse, and more people will be beaten, or drink themselves to death (like my gay friend in Peterburg is doing) or perhaps worse - PRETEND to be "straight," get married, have a family, and then cheat on them with anonymous gay strangers, like right wing, Christian politicians in the US are caught doing on an almost daily basis. 
It isn't about anyone interfering.  I'm not going to fly to Russia tomorrow and hand out rainbow flags to anyone.  But I certainly do not actively SUPPORT state-sponsored suppression of minorities, nor do I support it when a blind eye is turned to the people who beat, maim or kill others just because their sexuality makes others uncomfortable. 
America has plenty of its own problems.  You are welcome to read my posts on this site and you will see me detail what they are just as passionately as I am talking about this.  But gay rights, women's rights, civil rights - those are important issues which will continually need to be fought for.  I will fight the good fight in America.  As far as Russia goes, if I am going to be arrested in Russia for saying any of the things I said here (and one Dutch couple already WAS arrested for speaking out in favor of gay rights while visiting Russia), then I will not be going to Russia any time soon.  I have very good friends who are gay.  They stood by me when the self-righteous, judgmental and mean-spirited, abusive Christian people did not.   
I cry for my friend in St. Petersburg, who is forced to live in a closet and cannot be who he was born to be.  And I cry for all the others like him, in Russia and every other country where they suffer.

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## Deborski

A few more facts regarding what science tells us (rather than what religious preachers tell us) about gay adoptive parents:  Why Gay Parents May Be the Best Parents | Gays, Lesbians & Same-Sex Marriage | Advantages of Gay Parenting & Gay Adoption | LiveScience *
From this article:* 
Gay parents "tend to be more motivated, more committed than heterosexual parents on average, because they chose to be parents," said Abbie Goldberg, a psychologist at Clark University in Massachusetts who researches gay and lesbian parenting. Gays and lesbians rarely become parents by accident, compared with an almost 50 percent accidental pregnancy rate among heterosexuals, Goldberg said. "That translates to greater commitment on average and more involvement." 
And while research indicates that kids of gay parents show few differences in achievement, mental health, social functioning and other measures, these kids may have the advantage of open-mindedness, tolerance and role models for equitable relationships, according to some research. Not only that, but gays and lesbians are likely to provide homes for difficult-to-place children in the foster system, studies show. (Of course, this isn't to say that heterosexual parents can't bring these same qualities to the parenting table.)  
Gay adoption recently caused controversy in Illinois, where Catholic Charities adoption services decided in November to cease offering services because the state refused funding unless the groups agreed not to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Rather than comply, Catholic Charities closed up shop. 
Catholic opposition aside, research suggests that gay and lesbian parents are actually a powerful resource for kids in need of adoption. According to a 2007 report by the Williams Institute and the Urban Institute, 65,000 kids were living with adoptive gay parents between 2000 and 2002, with another 14,000 in foster homes headed by gays and lesbians. (There are currently more than 100,000 kids in foster care in the U.S.)  *An October 2011 report by Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute found that, of gay and lesbian adoptions at more than 300 agencies, 10 percent of the kids placed were older than 6 — typically a very difficult age to adopt out. About 25 percent were older than 3. Sixty percent of gay and lesbian couples adopted across races, which is important given that minority children in the foster system tend to linger. More than half of the kids adopted by gays and lesbians had special needs.*

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## Deborski

As regards the safety of Christian families, there are frequent cases - much TOO frequent - of children being allowed to DIE because of their parents' religious beliefs.   
Here is just one recent case where that happened, but you can do a google search and find hundreds more.  It happened in the Church I grew up in also.   *
From this article:* 
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.  *Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.* 
***  
Not only did this happen one time, with these specific parents, but TWICE.  That is how forgiving the justice system is of people's religious beliefs.  They did not believe in going to a doctor, and because of that, now two children are dead.  But they are RELIGIOUS, so people want to sweep it under the rug, ignore it, and pretend it didn't happen.  Maybe they should be allowed to kill a THIRD child for the sake of their precious religious beliefs?  What do you think? 
And that doesn't even begin to delve into all the other abuse which exists in religious families.  Psychological, physical, emotional, often sexual abuse is RAMPANT among right-wing Christian homes, primarily because they sweep things under the rug, keep the silence, and refuse to deal honestly and openly with the issues. 
If that is not enough to make someone stop and think, then I highly recommend watching this movie:    
This is EXACTLY the kind of brainwashing which happens in Christian camps for kids all across the United States. 
So why is it that GAY parents are being focused on with Russia's new law?  The majority of abuse occurs in religious homes.  That is documented, studied and well known despite the best efforts of Christian groups to deny it.  If Russia wants to bar adoption of children to American homes because of rampant abuse which goes on in the supposedly "upstanding members of society" I can certainly understand that, because it is widespread, it is ugly and you can bet it is REAL.

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## Doomer

> The issue of adopting Russian kids is a complex one, but it's unfair to target ONLY gay parents.

 It is also unfair to left out gay parents on these issues in favor of your believes. Especially when we are talking about abusing children   

> Regarding the "gay propaganda" laws - I'm sorry you support laws which make it a crime for gay couples to kiss in public, or for anyone to even discuss the issue of gay rights. 
> ...
> It isn't about anyone interfering.  I'm not going to fly to Russia tomorrow and hand out rainbow flags to anyone.  But I certainly do not actively SUPPORT state-sponsored suppression of minorities, nor do I support it when a blind eye is turned to the people who beat, maim or kill others just because their sexuality makes them uncomfortable.
> ....
> As far as Russia goes, if I am going to be arrested in Russia for saying any of the things I said here (and one Dutch couple already WAS arrested for speaking out in favor of gay rights while visiting Russia), then I will not be going to Russia any time soon.

 The proposed law suggests a $300 fine for offenders. I'm not sure why you implying criminal charges here. Maybe because $300 fine wouldn't show the supporters as martyrs? 
I don't know why majority need step on their throats in the meaning "of born this way" in favor of minorities
I'm born the way that I don't like to see two men kissing why should I be silent about it in favor of their sexual orientation? 
Hypocrisy already consumed minds of many Americans, I don't see it as a good thing

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## Deborski

> It is also unfair to left out gay parents on these issues in favor of your believes. Especially when we are talking about abusing children  
> The proposed law suggests a $300 fine for offenders. I'm not sure why you implying criminal charges here. Maybe because $300 fine wouldn't show the supporters as martyrs? 
> I don't know why majority need step on their throats in the meaning "of born this way" in favor of minorities
> I'm born the way that I don't like to see two men kissing why should I be silent about it in favor of their sexual orientation? 
> Hypocrisy already consumed minds of many Americans, I don't see it as a good thing

 Well, Doomer, I'm not sure how much money you think I have, but I frequently am outspoken, and given the fact that I am not going to SHUT UP or supress my opinions, I don't plan on going to Russia and shelling out $300 every time I say that I believe gays should be allowed to exist. 
As for your rights?  You have a right not to go to gay parades if you don't like them.  You have a right not to be gay.  It's really that simple. 
The hypocrisy is certainly there.  And you don't even see how glaringly obvious it is in your own words, because you are so busy trying to point it out in mine. 
Regarding "stepping on people's throats"... interesting you should bring that up, since that is exactly what the gay-bashers did at the last gay pride parade in St. Petersburg.  They stepped on people's throats, punched them, beat them, attacked them, whipped them, and the police allowed it all to happen.

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## Doomer

> Well, Doomer, I'm not sure how much money you think I have, but I frequently am outspoken, and given the fact that I am not going to SHUT UP or supress my opinions, I don't plan on going to Russia and shelling out $300 every time I say that I believe gays should be allowed to exist.

 So we are back to Bruce Willis with "I hate niggers" sign in the middle of Harlem. 
Your post also shows the whole "American pride" thing so well. "I'm proud of my believes so much that I'm gonna brag about it"   

> As for your rights?  You have a right not to go to gay parades if you don't like them.  You have a right not to be gay.  It's really that simple.

 We all well know that gay parades is the beginning, then comes marriage, social acceptance, and then gays will becomes another "blacks" when you cannot say anything opposing them without having society bathing you in shit 
I just remembered watching CNN one day the topic was "the N word again". They were verbally beating up a political person, a women, who, if I'm not mistaken "said the N word 15 years ago". CNN was asking that women is to resign immediately
I mean the whole hypocrisy of this is just mind blowing: America is a free country, you have a right to express your thoughts. Yeah, riiiight. This whole thing smells like a big pile of BS

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## Deborski

> So we are back to Bruce Willis with "I hate niggers" sign in the middle of Harlem. 
> Your post also shows the whole "American pride" thing so well. "I'm proud of my believes so much that I'm gonna brag about it"  
> We all well know that gay parades is the beginning, then comes marriage, social acceptance, and then gays will becomes another "blacks" when you cannot say anything opposing them without having society bathing you in shit

 It isn't American pride at all!  LOL  You know better too.  You have seen me say many negative things about my country.  But on the issue of gay rights, I stand by it. 
Not sure what you mean about "bathing in shit."  I have black friends.  I also know black people who are assholes.  I don't shy from telling them all what I think.  But the good thing about America - at least for the time being - is that I won't be fined $300 each time I speak my mind. 
I am really sad that everything is "us and them" with your statement.  What is so bad about society ACCEPTING black people, gay people, or Russian people?  I don't care if people are gay, straight, black, white, male, female or purple with pink polka dots.  If they are nice to me, I will be nice to them.

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## Deborski

> I don't think discrimination in any of its forms is good; but following this logic there should be straight parades as well.

 Go ahead and start one, Eric!  It makes no difference to me.  You have the right.  Go for it.  LOL

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## Deborski

Anyway, as much fun as this debate has (NOT!) been, I am going to bow out of this thread.  There is a reason I usually avoid discussing issues like gay rights, feminism and racism with Russians.  These are issues we are likely to never find agreement on, I am sorry to say. 
So lambaste away.  Gang up on me, troll me, do whatever you feel you need to do.  I've spoken my mind and I am done.  I will return to writing my blog, which is a great deal more fulfilling than endless debates with people who are never going to see eye-to-eye with me. 
As the late great Edward R. Murrow used to say, "good night and good luck."

----------


## Doomer

> It isn't American pride at all!

 Unfortunately, it is. And you are blinded by it and cannot see it. I can see it because I'm a foreigner   

> Not sure what you mean about "bathing in shit."  I have black friends.  I also know black people who are assholes.  I don't shy from telling them all what I think.

 bathing in shit means that you will be beat up verbally and maybe physically for speaking up your mind   

> But the good thing about America - at least for the time being - is that I won't be fined $300 each time I speak my mind.

 They only make you to resign and lose you carrier and your lifestyle. I think it is way to much comparing to $300   

> I am really sad that everything is "us and them" with your statement.  What is so bad about society ACCEPTING black people, gay people, or Russian people?  I don't care if people are gay, straight, black, white, male, female or purple with pink polka dots.  If they are nice to me, I will be nice to them.

 Accepting is a broad term 
If they'd be nice not to kiss on public I would really appreciate it. But apparently it's too much to ask

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## UhOhXplode

I am learning all about Russia and how to speak Russian. That's because I want to live in Russia someday. I know I would be happier living there and I don't expect the USA to change just for me. 
If your gay Russian friends want to live where they can be happy then maybe they should do what I'm doing except learn English and move to America. 
Everybody has to decide where they will be happy. There are lots of governments so there will be one that can make somebody happy to live there.
Even in the USA people will move to another state if they aren't happy living where they are. A lot of gay people moved to California because the laws were better for them there.
Different states have different laws and different countries have different laws. 
And trust me, there are tons of kids in America who need parents. While people were adopting from Russia, was that helping the orphans here?
I don't know very much about psychology yet and that's not what I want for a career. But I do know that a lot of Russian kids were being hurt and now nobody in America can adopt Russian kids.
As for me, I think more Russians should adopt more Russian kids and more Americans should adopt more American kids.  
About the gay adoption thing. My parents are not gay and I am not abused or mistreated so we can agree to disagree and move on. Gays have rights in all of America and western Europe. That's tons of space where they can live and get happy. 
All I can say is people need to go and live where they are happy. Lots of Russians moved to America to get happy. Lots of Americans move to Russia to get happy. And people move to other countries to get happy.
Since gay parades are not wanted in Russia then that is not where gays should live. 
Since I'm not gay and I get along better with Russians - that I know in real-life - than I do with other Americans, then I should go and live with Russians. It's so simple.  :: 
America wants the whole world to be America. I don't. So I must be Russian, lol! 
But I will always believe that gay bashing is wrong. But people are not prevented from finding another place to live. I know I'm not.
Btw, the people who taught me how to say hi in Russian are a married couple from St. Petersburg. They gave me a Russian calendar too!  ::

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## Paul G.

It's a pity, but Deborski serially ignores common sense. No one cares about gays except for the strange people. On the contrary, some silly gays bother normal people. I don't know if someone is gay or not and I don't want to know. But these freaks run after me and cry "dude, we are different, we make love in a different way, so you must respect us because of that." The next step is substantiation that gays are better than normal people (some radicals already say like that). That's a "Nazi" style and it's obvious to me.
Also, everyone has to remember: parades are conducted by winners. If "gay mentality" has won in your country, you should allow all types of the parades. By the "gay mentality" I mean not only sexual life, of course.

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## Lampada

> It's a pity, but Deborski serially ignores common sense. No one cares about gays except for the strange people. On the contrary, some silly gays bother normal people. I don't know if someone is gay or not and I don't want to know. But these freaks run after me and cry "dude, we are different, we make love in a different way, so you must respect us because of that." The next step is substantiation that gays are better than normal people (some radicals already say like that). That's a "Nazi" style and it's obvious to me.
> ...

 Через какое-то время людям с такой точкой зрения будет стыдно за себя, очень стыдно.
Только, к сожалению, к тому времени ещё многие и многие российские подростки-геи покончат жизнь самоубийством. _ 
"Добавлено 30 июня 2013 в 13:57   Сергей Лазарев: "Гонения на геев могут закончиться волной самоубийств среди подростков" http://heat.ru/news/108695   "... Россия в депрессии: страну захлестнул вал самоубийств. Все чаще из жизни уходят подростки, а то и совсем маленькие дети. Какую же боль надо носить в душе, чтобы убить себя в таком цветущем возрасте?. ..." http://do.gendocs.ru/docs/index-284049.html 
"...Наши подростки сводят счёты с жизнью в три раза чаще сверстников из других стран. Ежегодно 1,7 тысяч российских детей и подростков кончают жизнь самоубийством. ..."_ http://www.rg.ru/2011/03/15/suicid-poln.html  _"...Согласно исследованиям, примерно одна пятая часть гомосексуальных подростков пытались покончить жизнь самоубийством. ..."_ http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D1%E0%...F1%F2%EA%EE%E2

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## Paul G.

> Через какое-то время людям с такой точкой зрения будет стыдно за себя, очень стыдно.
> Только, к сожалению, к тому времени ещё многие и многие российские подростки-геи покончат жизнь самоубийством.

 Мне не стыдно сейчас и вряд ли будет стыдно когда-нибудь, поскольку моя позиция не ангажирована. В первую очередь подростки-геи кончают жизнь самоубийством не потому, что они испытывают давление, а потому что они чувствуют свою ненормальность, что переносится тяжело в этом возрасте. Они испытывают психологические проблемы, но помощи им ждать неоткуда. По этой же причине высок риск самоубийств среди инвалидов, смертельно больных людей, сумасшедших и т.д. Хотя, конечно, давление на подростков-геев в каких-то конкретных случаях может иметь место, но это некритично для статистики. 
"Гонения на геев могут закончиться волной самоубийств среди подростков" - могут. Только виноваты в этом сами геи, вернее, та неумная их часть, которая противопоставляет себя обществу и пытается заработать политический, экономический или социальный капитал, втягивая в проблематику детей и подростков. Подросткам нужно помогать, я не втягивать их в борьбу в виде заложников. 
На самом же деле среди геев просто-напросто большой процент психически больных людей (и вообще людей с психологическими проблемами), бОльший, чем среди гетеросексуальной группы. Этим объясняются и склонность к суициду, и прочие вещи. Вообще, достаточно посмотреть на любой гей-парад, присмотреться внимательно к активистам ЛГБТ движения - и всё станет ясно.

----------


## Lampada

> Мне не стыдно сейчас и вряд ли будет стыдно когда-нибудь, поскольку моя позиция не ангажирована. В первую очередь подростки-геи кончают жизнь самоубийством не потому, что они испытывают давление, а потому что они чувствуют свою ненормальность, что переносится тяжело в этом возрасте. Они испытывают психологические проблемы, но помощи им ждать неоткуда. По этой же причине высок риск самоубийств среди инвалидов, смертельно больных людей, сумасшедших и т.д. Хотя, конечно, давление на подростков-геев в каких-то конкретных случаях может иметь место, но это некритично для статистики. 
> "Гонения на геев могут закончиться волной самоубийств среди подростков" - могут. Только виноваты в этом сами геи, вернее, та неумная их часть, которая противопоставляет себя обществу и пытается заработать политический, экономический или социальный капитал, втягивая в проблематику детей и подростков. Подросткам нужно помогать, я не втягивать их в борьбу в виде заложников. 
> На самом же деле среди геев просто-напросто большой процент психически больных людей (и вообще людей с психологическими проблемами), бОльший, чем среди гетеросексуальной группы. Этим объясняются и склонность к суициду, и прочие вещи. Вообще, достаточно посмотреть на любой гей-парад, присмотреться внимательно к активистам ЛГБТ движения - и всё станет ясно.

 _Оставь надежду, сюда входящий..._

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## UhOhXplode

> Оставь надежду, сюда входящий_..._

 Данте Алигьери.  ::     

> Причины самоубийство сильно отличаются в разных возрастных группах - так, суициды из за неразделенной любви у подростков до 16 лет составляют практически половину от общего числа самоубийств, а после 25 лет по этой причине кончают с собой гораздо реже.

 That's when it's more important to study and play sports. There's lots of time to think about other things later.   

> It's a pity, but Deborski serially ignores common sense. No one cares about gays except for the strange people. On the contrary, some silly gays bother normal people. I don't know if someone is gay or not and I don't want to know. But these freaks run after me and cry "dude, we are different, we make love in a different way, so you must respect us because of that." The next step is substantiation that gays are better than normal people (some radicals already say like that). That's a "Nazi" style and it's obvious to me.
> Also, everyone has to remember: parades are conducted by winners. If "gay mentality" has won in your country, you should allow all types of the parades. By the "gay mentality" I mean not only sexual life, of course.

 Yeah, the "gay mentality" just means weak. Even our president has that and it just makes him look weak. It's people who are tough that win. Weak people are just losers. When somebody hits me, then I fight. I don't cry about it.

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## Eledhwen

Don't worry the critics will not happen.
Just remember that's a system of values or value codes it's a sphere of intense competition. The losing side in this competition is waiting for a national disaster. System of values ​​and world view then it is very difficult to change. To rise above itself always need to make some effort. Go with the flow and follow their habits much easier.

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## Eledhwen

Deleted. L.

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## Hanna

One thing that is very irritating nowadays if you open a socialist paper, they won't write about social justice, anti-imperialism, better housing for workers and that kind of stuff.  
Instead they spend most of the paper banging on about GAY rights, feminism and anti-rasism. The three big socially correct issues at the moment. The whole movement for social justice has been literally hijacked by these issues! Meanwhile the social safety net for the middle class and working class is disintegrating. I wish they left wing politicians would let the homosexuals take care of themselves and focus on the real issue that concerns normal people. 
I must say Russia can count itself lucky to be spared from this. 
If a person is a black homosexual woman, she is literally a perfect being who can do NO wrong. Ridiculous!  
Sure, there is merit to these causes up to a point. But these issues have completely hijacked the social debates in Western Europe at least, especially in the Northern countries.  
And many countries go so far over board with this that you don't know whether to laugh or cry. My sister mentioned on the phone a few weeks ago that her child's nursery was closed so the teachers could get LBQT training (sensitivity to homosexual issues). These teachers look after kids up to six years old! Why do they need to consider issues of a sexual nature at all! The nursery then sent a letter encouraging the parents not to let children play only with toys that are not typical for their gender. Like encourage girls play with trucks and action figures and boys play with dolls. How silly!!! Let the kids decide themselves what they prefer to play with, rather than forcing some PC agenda on them. Most little girl enjoy playing with dolls more than playing with trucks. So what?  And the most ridiculous thing: If a little boy wants to wear a dress, the parents are not to traumatise him, but he can come to the nursery in a dress, if he likes. That was too much, even for my sister.  Not to mention ridiculous gay parades every year, and politicians going out of their way to prove how pro-gay they are, and complaining about the human rights of gay people in Eastern Europe. Not my problem!) The whole thing is twisted! I don't wish any harm on gay people but I don't want anything to do with their lifestyle and I'd much prefer if they can be discrete about it.  
One word: *Sodom and Gomorrah!*    http://www.svd.se/nyheter/utrikes/ny...la_8377908.svd 
Article that claims that Russian neo nazis have kidnap and torture gay people. Obviously this is terrible but these stories are a dime a dozen. We are supposed to believe that every gay person in Eastern Europe is practically fearing for their life.  
Refugees from Africa are starting to use homosexuality as a reason why they need asylum. It's interesting how many discover that they are gay AFTER they came to Europe. They happened to tell all their family and friends at home and now they can't return because they'd be killed..... Sigh.

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## Eledhwen

Лампада, удаление сообщения не решит проблемы. Это всё равно, что прятать голову в песок, как страус.

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## scotcher

Sodom and Gomorrah? Nazis? Really? 
Jeeze, what happened to this place? There are some truly vile people on this forum these days.

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## Hanna

> Sodom and Gomorrah? Nazis? Really? 
> Jeeze, what happened to this place? There are some truly vile people on this forum these days.

 
Are you saying Christians are vile? Ok, that's your prerogative. Or between you and God, I should say. 
Nobody in this thread claimed to be a Nazi.  
If you ask me, it's tyranny to expect everybody to love homosexuals and support gay pride parades. 
And to villify those that don't, in the name of political correctness. 
All we are saying here, is that people should keep their sexuality private. Including gays!
 It's a private matter, not something to go and rub into other people's faces when they happen to be out shopping or sitting at a cafe, as the Gay pride parade does.  
Little children should not have to look at people in penis costumes or and Catholics should not have to look a transsexual "nuns" with crucifixes next to dildos and similar vulgar, tasteless and antisocial displays that are common in Gay pride parades. It's offensive!

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## 14Russian

> Are you saying Christians are vile? Ok, that's your prerogative. Or between you and God, I should say. 
> Nobody in this thread claimed to be a Nazi.  
> If you ask me, it's tyranny to expect everybody to love homosexuals and support gay pride parades. 
> And to villify those that don't, in the name of political correctness. 
> All we are saying here, is that people should keep their sexuality private. Including gays!
>  It's a private matter, not something to go and rub into other people's faces when they happen to be out shopping or sitting at a cafe, as the Gay pride parade does.  
> Little children should not have to look at people in penis costumes or and Catholics should not have to look a transsexual "nuns" with crucifixes next to dildos and similar vulgar, tasteless and antisocial displays that are common in Gay pride parades. It's offensive!

 You used Svenska Dagbladet?  LOL   You have no credibility.   You are a good troll, though.

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## Eric C.

> You used Svenska Dagbladet?  LOL   You have no credibility.   You are a good troll, though.

 She was just born at the wrong time; her views would be perfect if she was living in the 1930s - 1940s...

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## Lampada

> Are you saying Christians are vile? Ok, that's your prerogative. Or between you and God, I should say. 
> Nobody in this thread claimed to be a Nazi.  
> If you ask me, it's tyranny to expect everybody to love homosexuals and support gay pride parades. 
> And to villify those that don't, in the name of political correctness. 
> All we are saying here, is that people should keep their sexuality private. Including gays!
> It's a private matter, not something to go and rub into other people's faces when they happen to be out shopping or sitting at a cafe, as the Gay pride parade does.  
> Little children should not have to look at people in penis costumes or and Catholics should not have to look a transsexual "nuns" with crucifixes next to dildos and similar vulgar, tasteless and antisocial displays that are common in Gay pride parades. It's offensive!

 Hanna, is it really you?  I am lost...  Could it be that somebody's kidnapped your nickname?

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## 14Russian

> Anyway, as much fun as this debate has (NOT!) been, I am going to bow out of this thread. There is a reason I usually avoid discussing issues like gay rights, feminism and racism with Russians. These are issues we are likely to never find agreement on, I am sorry to say. 
> So lambaste away. Gang up on me, troll me, do whatever you feel you need to do. I've spoken my mind and I am done. I will return to writing my blog, which is a great deal more fulfilling than endless debates with people who are never going to see eye-to-eye with me. 
> As the late great Edward R. Murrow used to say, "good night and good luck."

 That's because you have no argument.   (Deleted. L.)  ::    This is a trait quite apparent in most lefties. 
Let's look at this topic's most recent developments.   I'm not sure who knows this yet but these LGBT groups are calling (no, demanding) that people boycott Russian goods, especially the vodka companies.   But, all Russian goods so make certain you're aware of that. So, through no fault of their own, Russian companies are being singled out to be punished because of something their Government (supposedly) did.   Are those Russian companies run by 'anti-gay' owners, managers and CEOs?    Who knows, who cares?   But, you *must* boycott them.   This is the logic from leftists.   The one example I refer to is Stolichnaya (Stoli) vodka.   The LGBT community is calling up bars and pubs and demanding that they don't serve Stoli vodka.   No reason except that it is Russian and a Russian* company (we soon learn that it isn't technically Russian or can be perceived as not owned by Russian(s)).   If you investigate further, you discover that the Stoli company has publicly announced that they support the LGBT community and gay rights.   Um, hello?!?   LOL!   The logic is that by boycotting Russian vodka, you will pressure these businesses to thus pressure the Government.   Yes, that is how it works.   LOL!   Punish them first and try to ruin them in the hope that they might request the Government change their laws.   This kind of boycott and outside interference in businesses of the entire country is often done and has been done before.   All the LGBT community will do is hurt their cause and provoke more backlash and less and less people will be sympathetic.   But, they're too stupid to realize it. 
Oh, also, Stolichnaya is not, technically, owned and controlled by a Russian.   It's operated by the Luxembourg-based SPI Group which is owned by Yury Shefler (Shefler doesn't sound like a Russian surname to me).   He's also been called an Oligarch.    So, this part below is somewhat of a lie: 
"Yes, the company owner, Yury Shefler, *is Russian*, and quite prominent, but “He doesn’t live in Russia, he cannot even go to Russia, he was really kicked out,” Mendeleev said."  Anti-gay law prompts B.C. pub to ban Russian vodka - British Columbia - CBC News Amid Gay Boycott, Stolichnaya Downplays Russian Identity | World | RIA Novosti 
This is just a demonstration of the political spin, loss of logic and manipulation of things - so even though I am not a fan of Putin whatsoever, I can say with confidence, that this is all a political sham to milk the liberal left and stir up **** since it's so easy to with brainwashed people.

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## Eric C.

> Hanna, is it really you?  I am lost...  Could it be that somebody's kidnapped your nickname?

 You've been blind for years, and now you can see! Congrats?

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## Lampada

> You've been blind for years, and now you can see! Congrats?

 You might be right, I guess. I seldom have enough time or interest to read everything closely.
But, please, everybody stay calm and, please, refrain from personal insults.
As always, most all personal ideological positions is accepted here.

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## 14Russian

> You might be right, I guess. I seldom have enough time or interest to read everything closely.
> But, please, everybody stay calm and, please, refrain from personal insults.
> As always, most all personal ideological positions is excepted here.

 "....is *accepted* here?" 
Fair enough.   I don't mean to but to show where the thinking is flawed.   If it's a good argument but totally politically opposed from my perspective, I invite it.   
I don't share the theme that the law is 'just' per se but the reactions of people are totally illogical.   If anyone wants to dispute the law, the Russian people should do so on their own.  It's perfectly reasonable, imho, for an 'outsider' to assert a perspective if you disagree (I do it a lot - lol) but special interest groups who are using intimidation methods, not to mention, based on completely illogical grounds, is wrong.   Also, I think I am proven correct stating it's a political ploy so the people who support or accept the law will only have their positions reinforced by those actions.

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## Seraph

> One thing that is very irritating nowadays if you open a socialist paper, they won't write about social justice, anti-imperialism, better housing for workers and that kind of stuff.  
> Instead they spend most of the paper banging on about GAY rights, feminism and anti-rasism. The three big socially correct issues at the moment. The whole movement for social justice has been literally hijacked by these issues! Meanwhile the social safety net for the middle class and working class is disintegrating. I wish they left wing politicians would let the homosexuals take care of themselves and focus on the real issue that concerns normal people.....

   It is a fragmentation technique. And for distraction/misdirection.   Both right and left wings have fragmentation techniques imposed on them.  This is so that no effective inhibition of special interest agendas can operate.  If you look at right wing press you will see fragmentation issues also, but they are different than the left wing fragmentations.  It would be pretty easy to come up with a book "The Manufacture of Dysfunction" about what is going on, and who wins from all this, and who loses.  Try this book, it tells something about some of the distortions going on: Economists and the Powerful: Convenient Theories, Distorted Facts, Ample Rewards by Norbert Häring and      Niall Douglas

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## Doomer

> The one example I refer to is Stolichnaya (Stoli) vodka.   The LGBT community is calling up bars and pubs and demanding that they don't serve Stoli vodka.   No reason except that it is Russian and a Russian* company

 That's a good thing
I'd propose to ban Stolichnaya everywhere, because people drink that cheap crap and call it Russian vodka, while in reality it's not Russian anymore, this vodka brand sold outside of Russia is produced in the USA and Latvia
Ignorance is bliss  ::

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## Hanna

> Hanna, is it really you?  I am lost...  Could it be that somebody's kidnapped your nickname?

 No, no it's still me. And I don't hate gay people, and I don't wish anything bad on them at all.  
I just don't like the way it's going in Northern Europe at the moment, where homosexuality is almost promoted. 
I don't think anyone can imagine how extreme it is, until you see it yourself.  
Gay parades, gay nights at clubs and restaurants. 
You turn on TV and on one channel a gay program hosts is interviewing a transvestite. On the next channel, a film about a teenager discovering they are gay and having softcore gay sex. Open a paper, and there's a story where yet another celebrity explains how fulfilled and happy they are as gay
This is the reality in Sweden and the UK is moving fast in that direction.  
I am just too socially conservative, and it's a religious thing as well.  *
All I'm saying is that people should be more private about their sexuality. Not just gays, everybody! 
I am just as much against heterosexual pornography which I think is offensive too, towards us women, and it turns men into pathetic slaves of their lusts. I'm just as much against that.*  
I am strongly against anybody persecuting gay people. But I'm also against the gay lifestyle being constantly flaunted to people like me who don't want to know.  
Am I a horrible person because I don't want this outside my window like I had last year...

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## UhOhXplode

> That's a good thing
> I'd propose to ban Stolichnaya everywhere, because people drink that cheap crap and call it Russian vodka, while in reality it's not Russian anymore, this vodka brand sold outside of Russia is produced in the USA and Latvia
> Ignorance is bliss

 Since they don't even know what they're drinking, I'll post this: DO NOT BOYCOT Spirits of the Tsars because that's distilled in Ukraine not Russia. 
So they can cry and boycot vodka. Sounds really boring. As for me, I'll boycot nothing and just party!  ::  
Anyway, it's what I said in another post: Russian problems are for the people in Russia to decide about. They're the ones that have to live with the decision, not the rest of the world.

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## Eledhwen

I agree. If will be as little as possible information on same-sex marriages or gay parades, this anomaly will go away by itself. Any idea need to cultivate otherwise there will be no result.

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## maxmixiv

> I don't think anyone can imagine how extreme it is, until you see it yourself.

 Мдаа, далеко у вас всё зашло... У нас они тоже телевидение оккупировали, но пока песенки поют

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## 14Russian

> Мдаа, далеко у вас всё зашло... У нас они тоже телевидение оккупировали, но пока песенки поют

 Interesting.   This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin).   Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming.    
For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government.   There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination.    
More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.     Channel One Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Hanna

> Interesting.   This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin).   Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming.    
> For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government.   There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination.    
> More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.     Channel One Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
So Russia's got state TV like _any other_ European country? So they are not radically against the government? What a surprise. Who cares? Nowadays there are plenty of commercial junk alternatives for those who prefer that flavour of TV. 
Why would Russians be any more brainwashed than anyone else? In fact, you just need to read the comments here, to see that Russians are_ more_ cynical and pragmatic about politics than most people, and they certainly don't trust what they hear on TV. They have access to the same media and junk entertainment as anyone else. YOU are the one who is brainwashed if you don't realise that, and your comments are insulting to the "hosts" of the site, who are here to help people learn their language. So peg it down a notch or two would you.  
Leave it to the Russians to complain about Putin! You don't have to live in a country run by Putin & co, so why should you care?  
In fact, we are seeing a much wider spread in political and social views from the Russians and Ukrainians visiting the forum, than any other groups. Regular Russian visitors here include Pro West/USA fans, communists, anarchists, conservatives and plenty of other alternatives. 
How does that tie in with your brainwashing? I'd say it's completely fictional.  
Either way, who cares? It's their country and they can be as brainwashed as they like. It's not like Russians don't know how to overthrow a leader when they get enough, like they did, twice in the last century. Anyway; my impression is that they are LESS brainwashed than the average European or American.  
EDIT:   Further reason why Russia is sounder: We've got freakin' internet censorship in the UK!! In Russia people can do whatever they like online. And it's getting worse here every day.  
There are about 10 sites I regularly visit that are now blocked. Apparently porn will also shortly be banned. Doesn't bother me personally, I hate porn. But what will be next? RT.com perhaps? Far too radical.   
In fact, PRESSTV is BANNED in the EU! They are not allowed to broadcast on  any satellite over Europe. Nobody can watch this TV channel.  To my  knowledge there is no banned TV station in Russia, anyone can broadcast  what they like in Russian language via satellite. So who is the victim  of censorship?! 
Mark my word: There be MORE political asylum seekers from the West, to Russia. Seriously.

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## Eledhwen

Anyone who uses the phrase “Putin regime” — or he don't know what saying, or he is a big scoundrel.

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## 14Russian

> Anyone who uses the phrase “Putin regime” — or he don't know what saying, or he is a big scoundrel.

 I think you know what I meant (if you understood the points in the post).   As for the other reply, it gave me a good laugh. 
"Why would Russians be any more brainwashed than anyone else?"    Blah, blah, blah.   Stick to the topic.  Your debating and discussion skills are awful.  I made the distinction between the law and the political platform and what they do with TV programming.   Any sensible person could make the distinction.  So, stop inventing strawmen and going on a pointless rant.   Thanks.

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## Hanna

> I think you know what I meant (if you understood the points in the post).   As for the other reply, it gave me a good laugh. 
> "Why would Russians be any more brainwashed than anyone else?"    Blah, blah, blah.   Stick to the topic.  Your debating and discussion skills are awful.  I made the distinction between the law and the political platform and what they do with TV programming.   Any sensible person could make the distinction.  So, stop inventing strawmen and going on a pointless rant.   Thanks.

 If you don't want responses to your comments in a debate forum, then refrain from commenting...  
And speaking about "poor debating techniques" (who made you the appointed judge of that anyway?) : 
Avoiding the topic or the question and launching a personal attack against the opponent is usually considered about as cheap as you can get on that front!  ::  
It would also be interesting to hear what you base your "superior knowledge" about Russia on? 
You haven't made any comments in Russian here, so obviously you are not a Russian.  
Why don't you let the Russians be the judge of their own country and try to learn something, instead of telling the Russians what their country is like, according to YOU?

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## 14Russian

> If you don't want responses to your comments in a debate forum, then refrain from commenting...  
> And speaking about "poor debating techniques" (who made you the appointed judge of that anyway?) : 
> Avoiding the topic or the question and launching a personal attack against the opponent is usually considered about as cheap as you can get on that front!  
> It would also be interesting to hear what you base your "superior knowledge" about Russia on? 
> You haven't made any comments in Russian here, so obviously you are not a Russian.  
> Why don't you let the Russians be the judge of their own country and try to learn something, instead of telling the Russians what their country is like, according to YOU?

 So, you still can't stick to the topic.  Shame, shame....  
The point is made.   Russians can comment on it.   I cannot help it if you cannot understand.

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## Eric C.

> You haven't made any comments in Russian here, so obviously you are not a Russian.

  :: 
Just as much as the one who said that is Swedish.

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## Hanna

Anyone interested in my posts in Swedish can find them in the Scandinavian section where they belong.

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## Doomer

> So Russia's got state TV like _any other_ European country? So they are not radically against the government? What a surprise. Who cares? Nowadays there are plenty of commercial junk alternatives for those who prefer that flavour of TV.

 Sadly it is not yet true for Russia
Almost all free television in Russia is owned by government or sponsored by pro-government companies. 
And there is not a single big TV channel owned by opposition. Moreover government tries to control business which is not a good thing for the country, plus it eliminates a chance for opposition to appear and grow.
The satellites aren't an option for major part of Russia - people are not accustomed to it, even in big cities  
But because many Russians know that they are being brainwashed they try to resist it and tend not to trust TV that much

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## Hanna

> Sadly it is not yet true for Russia
> Almost all free television in Russia is owned by government or sponsored by pro-government companies. 
> And there is not a single big TV channel owned by opposition. Moreover government tries to control business which is not a good thing for the country, plus it eliminates a chance for opposition to appear and grow.
> The satellites aren't an option for major part of Russia - people are not accustomed to it, even in big cities  
> But because many Russians know that they are being brainwashed they try to resist it and tend not to trust TV that much

 Ok, but there are no TV channels "owned by opposition" in Europe either! The whole point is that only the establishment and the state can afford to run a TV station.  
There is state TV, and commercial TV. Both have essentially the same agenda but state TV tends to be more serious and commercial TV more "entertainment" oriented, and with ads.  
There was one alternative cable TV channel broadcasting across Europe, challenging status quo in the UK and siding with the "little guy". They got banned off every single European satellite and the channel is no longer available on TV.  
I can no more switch on the TV and expect to see somebody challenging the validity of the government in the UK than anyone in Russia can. 
I think the accusation that media in Russia is censored is exaggerated.  
Besides, this is not the Cold War era. There is the internet, Radio Liberty and any number of satellite channels for anyone in Russia who wants an alternative view.  
Interestingly enough the most alternative English speaking channel right now, is RT (other than PressTV before it got banned - they still broadcast online though).

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## Basil77

> Sadly it is not yet true for Russia
> Almost all free television in Russia is owned by government or sponsored by pro-government companies. 
> And there is not a single big TV channel owned by opposition. Moreover government tries to control business which is not a good thing for the country, plus it eliminates a chance for opposition to appear and grow.
> The satellites aren't an option for major part of Russia - people are not accustomed to it, even in big cities  
> But because many Russians know that they are being brainwashed they try to resist it and tend not to trust TV that much

 Doomer, looks like your information about current state of things in Russia is a bit outdated. From my experience, like 70-80% of households in Russia have at least 40-50 TV channels (satellite or cable) and only 6 of them are directly controlled by Federal goverment. I visited a small town Omutninsk in Kirov (Vyatka) region this year (it's my mother's native town) and every house there has a satellite TV plate, it's in the tiny town located in the middle of nowhere, i'm not talking about central parts of the country. Also most newspapers, radio stations and internet are not controlled at all. As for most Russians being sceptical about state propaganda you are right. No one I know don't take political programms and news at federal TV seriously because they look like this (sorry for non appropriate lexics at the picture):

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## UhOhXplode

> Interesting.   This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin).   Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming.   
> For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government.   There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination.   
> More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.    Channel One Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is very interesting since the Moscow Duma was the one that was refusing to pass anti-gay legislation. Boris Moiseev | The Disorder Of Things Russia: Moscow region rejects anti-gay bill / Russia / Country-by-country / Guide to Europe / Home / ilga - ILGA Europe 
Also, it's easy to just say "State Owned" or "Government Controlled". But the truth is that the Dumas contain hundreds of deputies - each one having his own views - and legislation has to be passed with a vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma Russian parliament passes bill that imposes fines for gay pride rallies, info sharing | Fox News 
I do think the 436-0 vote is a little suspicious but I'm also kinda suprised to learn that the regional Moscow Duma was so much more opposed to the anti-gay bill.
It just looks like the Moscow Duma was supporting the "gay" TV programming while the Russian Parliament was not. A political split.
Now I'm curious. How much do decisions in regional Dumas affect what happens in the Russian Parliament?

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## Lampada

> ... Russia is not a good place right now to be gay.

  

> And will not.

 God has Spoken! ::

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## Lampada

*On Gay Priests, Pope Francis Asks, ‘Who Am I to Judge?’ * 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/world/europe/pope-francis-gay-priests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

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## 14Russian

> This is very interesting since the Moscow Duma was the one that was refusing to pass anti-gay legislation. Boris Moiseev | The Disorder Of Things Russia: Moscow region rejects anti-gay bill / Russia / Country-by-country / Guide to Europe / Home / ilga - ILGA Europe 
> Also, it's easy to just say "State Owned" or "Government Controlled". But the truth is that the Dumas contain hundreds of deputies - each one having his own views - and legislation has to be passed with a vote. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Duma Russian parliament passes bill that imposes fines for gay pride rallies, info sharing | Fox News 
> I do think the 436-0 vote is a little suspicious but I'm also kinda suprised to learn that the regional Moscow Duma was so much more opposed to the anti-gay bill.
> It just looks like the Moscow Duma was supporting the "gay" TV programming while the Russian Parliament was not. A political split.
> Now I'm curious. How much do decisions in regional Dumas affect what happens in the Russian Parliament?

 "...each one having his own views"    Who cares?   What matters is what the government decides to implement.   I would even debate whether 'each' has their own view.   Not the ones with ties to the party. 
My point is the 'anti-gay' bill is really redundant when you note what kind of TV programming they put out.   The suggestion that 'most Russians' ignore it or don't get swayed by the propaganda is really irrelevant to the point.   Although, I am not disputing it at all and good for them.   I didn't criticize Russians in those posts or say they were getting 'brainwashed' although I suggest it could be influencing a great number.   Maybe people here like Hanna never talk to Russians outside this site but I do and I come across others.   Take a look at facebook and vk pages and tell me they don't watch that stuff.   A lot of the media is delivering 'western style' propaganda and considering the population, it only has to reach a proportion of the population.    
However, my point wasn't even any of that.   I was illustrating the hypocrisy of this theme and the 'fake' stance that the Government was taking.   It's not a 'political split' as you put it.   It's delivering two conflictory messages.  It's a political ploy 101.  Say two different things simultaneously.   What I wanted to do is show to those sympathetic to Putin and 'support' the law, that he doesn't care about it at all.   The TV programming proves it.   Also, I don't care whether there's more private networks in Russia.   These are probably operated and owned by Oligarchs and Elites that hold some power.  They are probably in Putin's pocket or vice vera.   It doesn't really matter.    
Hanna made a comment that there's all kinds of various Rusisans, some are 'pro-West' etc.   That is probably true but in being 'pro-West', they are being manipulated.  It's on purpose.   I am glad that many Russians are 'awake' to all this.

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## maxmixiv

> Interesting. This is more confirmation of the hypocrisy and brainwashing by the Russian government (see Putin). Implement a bogus law and then promote the brainwashing and indoctrination via TV programming. 
> For the people here (probably Americans who might not know), this video is from Channel One Russia, which is owned, operated and controlled by the Government. There's also RTR which is another state-sponsored network (division) which televises the same drivel and 'left-wing' western style indoctrination. 
> More evidence about the two-faced, hypocritical Putin regime.

 I understood "Interesting", and don't understand completely the remaining. What regime? What brainwashing?  It was just small detail of whole picture "Life in modern Russia". It has nothing to do with politics. TV channels might think twice how to present the news, but all the other programmes are just for making money. The state does not care what is on TV.
Surprisingly enough though, that today's TV bosses claim they are trying to please the audience, whereas soviet TV bosses did programmes of type they considered suitable. However, in USSR TV content was of great quality, now it is a total crap. Many people get along without TV set.

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## Hanna

Ok, so for those of you who are very pro-gay, FINE. To each his own. Gay people have been through some hard times in the past and I can completely understand that some want to show their support.  ::   
But honestly, Some countries take it too far. Here is an example, from TODAY'S paper (biggest paper in Sweden).  
Header *"The embassy in Moscow does not want to raise the gay pride banner"* Ambassaden i Moskva vill inte hissa prideflaggan - DN.SE  Summary of the story: a large national organisation was proposing that the Swedish embassy in Moscow should raise the HOMOSEXUAL rainbow flag, instead of the regular Swedish flag. 
This would be to mark a protest against Russia's supposed discrimination of gay people. 
Apparently the Swedish embassy in Kosovo (!?) had previously done this, because Kosovo too, apparently  discriminates against gay people. So they want the Moscow embassy to do the same thing.  
How ridiculous, rude, childish and unproductive is this idea?! 
Fortunately the embassy staff in Moscow did not entertain this idea.  
I can't believe that media even writes about it, but this "Russia-discriminates-against-gays" theme is a never-ending saga. They have yet to give a seriously disturbing example with actual testimony. 
And if they MUST consider these types of manifestation, why not start in Saudi Arabia where they stone homosexuals to death!? Or perhaps Afghanistan, Kenya, Nigeria etc....  
So I hope that this example illustrates that I some countries simply go too far in their pro-homosexuality agenda. They offend other countries and religions that don't appreciate this lifestyle. They should respect the law of the land in other countries and not imagine they know what's best for other countries.

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## Eric C.

> They offend other countries and religions that don't appreciate this lifestyle. They should respect the law of the land in other countries and not imagine they know what's best for other countries.

 Here we go again... How many times does it have to be said that it's people who decide what their lives will be, not some "culture" or "system" or "country"?! What kind of totalitarian fascist does one have to be to assume otherwise? Moderators, I hope you keep track of such intolerant statements here, and take appropriate measures...

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## Hanna

> Here we go again... How many times does it have to be said that it's people who decide what their lives will be, not some "culture" or "system" or "country"?! What kind of totalitarian fascist does one have to be to assume otherwise? Moderators, I hope you keep track of such intolerant statements here, and take appropriate measures...

 I think your English skills are letting you down a bit Eric. I was referring to COUNTRIES not homosexual people, which seems to be how you understood the sentence.  
My point is that it is a ridiculous notion for the Swedish embassy (representation of Sweden in Russia) to do a pro-homosexuality manifestation, by raising the rainbow flag. Russia's laws on homosexuality is an internal matter for Russia and it seems the majority support them.  
If they did indeed do a manifestation like that in Kosovo it is quite shocking.  
Likewise the death penalty in the USA is revolting to most people in Sweden. But nobody is proposing that the Swedish embassy in Washington D.C. should start doing manifestations against that. It would be both rude and meddling, not to mention the fact that neither the USA nor Russia could care less by any manifestations by a country the size of Sweden. 
As incomprehensible as it is, Americans apparently support that, and* it's their own country, so their business*.

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## maxmixiv

> I can't believe that media even writes about it

 I too. Obviously, no important problems remained in your country.

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## Hanna

> I too. Obviously, no important problems remained in your country.

 There are problems, allright. It's just that they choose to fill media with this kind of stuff. You literally can't open a paper in Sweden without reading about the latest politically correct ideas, i.e:    Homosexuality is a great lifestyle (and anyone who doesn't agree is an discriminatory homophobe)"Multicultural society" is great, i.e. mass immigration from the MIddle East and Africa (and anyone who doesn't fully agree is a rasist)Feminism is the only way; everything should be exactly equal between men and women - they should behave and think exactly the same way (and anyone who doesn't agree is an anti-feminist bigot).  
I'm sick and tired of being brainwashed about these ideas as soon as I open a Swedish paper. 
I have no major issue with either of these things, but I don't like to get ideas stuffed down my throat and be forced to agree with the latest ideas or be labelled a reactive fascist. 
The UK has somewhat better spread among media and their opinions. Not all papers have the exact same view on everything and I appreciate that a lot here.

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## Eric C.

> I think your English skills are letting you down a bit Eric. I was referring to COUNTRIES not homosexual people, which seems to be how you understood the sentence.  
> My point is that it is a ridiculous notion for the Swedish embassy (representation of Sweden in Russia) to do a pro-homosexuality manifestation, by raising the rainbow flag. Russia's laws on homosexuality is an internal matter for Russia and it seems the majority support them.  
> If they did indeed do a manifestation like that in Kosovo it is quite shocking.  
> Likewise the death penalty in the USA is revolting to most people in Sweden. But nobody is proposing that the Swedish embassy in Washington D.C. should start doing manifestations against that. It would be both rude and meddling, not to mention the fact that neither the USA nor Russia could care less by any manifestations by a country the size of Sweden. 
> As incomprehensible as it is, Americans apparently support that, and* it's their own country, so their business*.

 I just read what's been typed down; if someone wants to doubt my reading skills, they're strongly advised to first take a look at their writing skills  ::  
What I meant is, the "don't mess with other countries/don't tell other countries what to do, etc." attitude is utterly failing, as countries are nothing without people; and just because some people in some country prefer one particular lifestyle doesn't mean everyone who lives there will stick to it; now, if a country abuses its powers and tells PEOPLE what to do, or suppresses them in any possible way, that country should be told what to do, and it will (hopefully) eventually be told what to do, and forced to do so if needed; by all this, I don't mean the sexual orientation issue, or the feminism issue, or anything like that in particular, but the general concept of civil liberties and human rights; people don't serve countries, it's the other way around.

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## Hanna

> I just read what's been typed down; if someone wants to doubt my reading skills, they're strongly advised to first take a look at their writing skills  
> What I meant is, the "don't mess with other countries/don't tell other countries what to do, etc." attitude is utterly failing, as countries are nothing without people; and just because some people in some country prefer one particular lifestyle doesn't mean everyone who lives there will stick to it; now, if a country abuses its powers and tells PEOPLE what to do, or suppresses them in any possible way, that country should be told what to do, and it will (hopefully) eventually be told what to do, and forced to do so if needed; by all this, I don't mean the sexual orientation issue, or the feminism issue, or anything like that in particular, but the general concept of civil liberties and human rights; people don't serve countries, it's the other way around.

 *
So answer this, which is the logical follow-on from your reasoning*:     Who is to say what values are right or wrong in any particular country or culture, if not the citizens of that country, or their government?On what authority should another country have the ultimate say? Biggest army? Most widespread culture? Most moral or religious country? Most ideologically pure country?Which country in your view is the ultimate authority on what's right or wrong for other countries?Which country should shut up and change their laws and culture to comply?Or are you saying that every country start issuing judgement on all other countries with different cultures or values to themselves?   _(stupid question really, you never answer any direct questions so  100-1 you'll ignore this one, answer something entirely unrelated_ _or make a personal insult towards me. Will give you ONE chance  though, until I go back to ignoring you.)_

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## Throbert McGee

> How ridiculous, rude, childish and unproductive is this idea?!  
> So I hope that this example illustrates that I some countries simply go too far in their pro-homosexuality agenda. They should respect the law of the land in other countries and not imagine they know what's best for other countries.

 Umm, seems to me that a certain Swede on this board was thoroughly happy to lecture OTHER COUNTRIES on how awful and backward it is to have just one official national language. (And the Latvians, as far as I know, weren't preparing to impose criminal fines on people who "promoted Russian to minors" -- they just didn't want to subsidize the Russian language.)   

> this "Russia-discriminates-against-gays" theme is a never-ending saga. They have yet to give a seriously disturbing example with actual testimony

 "Disturbing" to whom? Carrying a sign like this on a public street can now, in theory***, get you a 5000-ruble fine throughout Russia (Photo is a couple years old, and AFAIK, the guy -- activist Nikolai Alekseev -- already got the same fine under the St. Petersburg law. Though I understand that foreign sympathizers chipped in with money, and he didn't have to pay out of his own pocket, at least:   
I'd imagine that Russian gays consider it "seriously disturbing" that saying the phrase *Я нормальный человек* where children might overhear you is now banned propaganda...  **P.S.* _However_, I understand the point that no one knows whether the new law will be actively enforced, and I agree that the Swedish gesture was rather stupid, and that calls to "boycott Sochi" are insane overreactions. (I'd note that the US had laws against consensual sodomy until 2003, but the very reason that it took so long to strike down these laws is that they were practically never enforced -- which meant there was no "legal standing" to challenge them.)

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## Eric C.

> *
> So answer this, which is the logical follow-on from your reasoning*:     Who is to say what values are right or wrong in any particular country or culture, if not the citizens of that country, or their government?On what authority should another country have the ultimate say? Biggest army? Most widespread culture? Most moral or religious country? Most ideologically pure country?Which country in your view is the ultimate authority on what's right or wrong for other countries?Which country should shut up and change their laws and culture to comply?Or are you saying that every country start issuing judgement on all other countries with different cultures or values to themselves?

 1. This one's incorrect, because in civilized countries every person is entitled to having their own system of values that can be different as much as they like from what might be offered by the government, etc., as long as it's ok with the law; 
2. A country can do that provided: 
a) There's a real problem indeed in the country that's being decided on;
b) The country that decides is flawless in the matter it's taking a decision about;
c) The country that decides can reasonably ensure carrying out its decision on the offender country; 
3. See items b) & c) of item #2 
4. See item a) of item #2 
5. See items ##2-4

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## Hanna

> Umm, seems to me that a certain Swede on this board was thoroughly happy to lecture OTHER COUNTRIES on how awful and backward it is to have just one official national language. (And the Latvians, as far as I know, weren't preparing to impose criminal fines on people who "promoted Russian to minors" -- they just didn't want to subsidize the Russian language.)

 Re Latvia: This is regional politics between two neighbouring areas with a very long and complex relationship and not a comparable situation. The Baltic states now want to be part of the Scandinavian/Nordic group of countries. I.e. they essentially want to be Scandis, like us in Scandinavia.   
Fine, but if they want to join us, they should take similar view on not discriminating on the basis of language. We have a very long history of getting over language discrimination in Scandinavia and it was solved to everyone's satisfaction, more or less, about a hundred years ago.  
If the Balts stop trying to be "Nordic" they can do what they like. I only object to them saying "we are like you", attempting to be part of the Nordic group and then engaging  in language discrimination, which we reject. If they allied themselves with some other area, I would care considerably less.  
Let's stick to the topic though, instead of attacking me personally and ignoring my questions. I'm not in the habit of digging up your old posts and launch a vendetta against you, because we have different opinions, so would you show me the same respect, please? Thanks.

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## Throbert McGee

P.P.S. At least this recent controversy produced an excellent one-liner:  
Парадокс: Российский парламент запретил "пропаганду гомосексуализма", а в правительстве сидят одни п*доры! 
Which you could politely translate as: 
"It's ironic that the Russian Parliament has banned 'homosexual propaganda', since 99% of what the government does and says is so TOTALLY GAY." 
Though more literally and vulgarly, сидят одни п*доры is better translated as "it's filled with nothing but c*cksuckers." (In US English slang, "c*cksucker" isn't always literal -- sometimes the meaning is more like паршивый козёл, without any reference at all to orientation.)

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## Throbert McGee

By the way, can anyone point me to political analyses IN RUSSIAN of what the real, practical effects of the recent "No Promo Homo" law might or not be? (Preferably by a legal expert who is neither a pro-gay nor an anti-gay activist -- much of the coverage I've seen in the US has had the tone of "the sky is falling!") 
And I've found plenty of news stories in Russian, but none that offered good legal analysis of what the law's language ACTUALLY MEANS (perhaps because no one knows!), or predictions of how strictly the law will be enforced.

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## UhOhXplode

> Umm, seems to me that a certain Swede on this board was thoroughly happy to lecture OTHER COUNTRIES on how awful and backward it is to have just one official national language. (And the Latvians, as far as I know, weren't preparing to impose criminal fines on people who "promoted Russian to minors" -- they just didn't want to subsidize the Russian language.)
> "Disturbing" to whom? Carrying a sign like this on a public street can now, in theory***, get you a 5000-ruble fine throughout Russia (Photo is a couple years old, and AFAIK, the guy -- activist Nikolai Alekseev -- already got the same fine under the St. Petersburg law. Though I understand that foreign sympathizers chipped in with money, and he didn't have to pay out of his own pocket, at least: 
> I'd imagine that Russian gays consider it "seriously disturbing" that saying the phrase *Я нормальный человек* where children might overhear you is now banned propaganda... **P.S.* _However_, I understand the point that no one knows whether the new law will be actively enforced, and I agree that the Swedish gesture was rather stupid, and that calls to "boycott Sochi" are insane overreactions. (I'd note that *the US had laws against consensual sodomy until 2003*, but the very reason that it took so long to strike down these laws is that they were practically never enforced -- which meant there was no "legal standing" to challenge them.)

 The US still has issues with sodomy. 13 States still have anti-sodomy laws and Louisiana is still trying to enforce theirs. One State Is Still Enforcing Its Anti-Sodomy Law - Connor Simpson - The Atlantic Wire 
And some States (including mine) use other methods to deal with the gay issue. They include beatings, bullying, and suicides. If you want to see what happened at the gay parade in Russia, just enroll in middle or high school in the USA. It gets really scary sometimes. Ohio Bully Beating of Gay Student Caught on Cell Phone - ABC News Anti-Gay Bullying: Does Silence = Death? | Oklahoma Observer 
That first link is just one case but trust me, there's tons more and a lot of them never even get reported, period. 
So maybe if it was illegal to have parades or even talk about being gay, then maybe a lot of kids would still be alive. 
I mean, I don't care if somebody's gay and it's not a huge issue. They're just people like everybody else and a lot of them like metal and alternative rock so that's pretty cool. But there's way too many kids that aren't as tolerant as I am.
The point is, it's people that cause the real damage, not laws. And Russia probably doesn't have any more violence against gays (well, at school anyway) than America does. Gays will still be persecuted and even killed till the attitudes change and the laws can't change that. Only people can. 
About the No Promo Homo thing. I thought that was just Tennessee. I haven't heard very much about it here so it must just be in the public schools?

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## UhOhXplode

Ummm.. This post was an accident. I made one post and somehow it posted twice. Sorry.

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## maxmixiv

> practical effects of the recent "No Promo Homo" law might or not be?

 I can only suggest that fate of the law will be like many others: it will be forgotten in a few months.

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## Doomer

> By the way, can anyone point me to political analyses IN RUSSIAN of what the real, practical effects of the recent "No Promo Homo" law might or not be? (Preferably by a legal expert who is neither a pro-gay nor an anti-gay activist -- much of the coverage I've seen in the US has had the tone of "the sky is falling!")

 I could only think of one practical use of this law: if you ban gay parades in Russia you would decrease raising numbers of broken jaws and ribs.
I mean what's the sacred point of gay parades anyway? I don't get it. I feel like these parades inhabited by exhibitionists rather than gays. 
I also think that any public actions of sexual nature(including gay parades) are in fact sexual harassment to the society. And sexual harassment cannot be considered as acceptable, in my view. 
I mean if you are a gay - fine. But don't stick your genitals to the faces of other people.
Go to Vegas, rent a place and stick it to the faces of people who give a damn. AEE does it, so should gay people do, if they so fond of their parades.

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## Lampada

> I could only think of one practical use of this law: if you ban gay parades in Russia you would decrease raising numbers of broken jaws and ribs.
> I mean what's the sacred point of gay parades anyway? I don't get it. I feel like these parades inhabited by exhibitionists rather than gays. 
> I also think that any public actions of sexual nature(including gay parades) are in fact sexual harassment to the society. And sexual harassment cannot be considered as acceptable, in my view. 
> I mean if you are a gay - fine. *But don't stick your genitals to the faces of other people.* Go to Vegas, rent a place and stick it to the faces of people who give a damn. AEE does it, so should gay people do, if they so fond of their parades.

 Я здесь в Чикаго ни на какие парады никогда не ходила и не пойду. Неинтересно. Если б мне не пришлось случайно увидеть фотографии с Mardi Gras, Key West или с Гей Pride парадов, не предствляла бы такое. 
Так что, если не хочешь, никакие гениталии не увидишь. 
А в детстве помню на русских пляжах все мужчины в* малюсеньких* плавках были. Вообще не смущало, вроде так и надо. Никто и не знал, что нужно возмущаться или пялиться. Чегой-то вдруг чьи-то гениталии стали диковинкой? 
Вот первое, что нагугливось, всё напоказ и никого не волнует:

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## 14Russian

^^^^^ What are you talking about?!?   I'm not sure how it's done in Florida (or Chicago) but in Canada, the Government actually funds these parades!   They obtain grants under the B.S. 'tourism' umbrella.   Furthermore, the municipal government (whichever city it takes place in) closes off all encompassing roads so traffic must detour.   This makes for a lot of inconvenience.   Also, shops along the route are ****ed!    So, you better not need to go through this area for any reason or you will witness the spectacle whether you want to or not.   This is just wrong.   Other organizations or groups don't get 'parades' or funding for it.   If it is perceived as a 'right-wing' group, they won't ever get the right or funding for such a reason so this is about politics.

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## Hanna

> I also think that any public actions of sexual nature(including gay parades) are in fact sexual harassment to the society. And sexual harassment cannot be considered as acceptable, in my view. 
> I mean if you are a gay - fine. But don't stick your genitals to the faces of other people.

 I feel the same way. I would be just as much against prostitutes having a *Prostitute Pride* Parade, in vulgar outfits, half naked.... Or a* Pedophilia Pride* Parade, a* Sadism parade* or anyone flaunting their sexuality in the faces of other people,* even if they are 100% straight and happily married*. It's tasteless, vulgar and doesn't achieve anything constructive. Perhaps I'm just too conservative, but that's my view.  
Ok, Russian gay people reading this.... since you can't march at home, you are apparently invited...   This festival is going on right now, for a week.... You are not forgotten, lol...  (this is silly....)   
Some gay bar in Sweden making a manifestation:  
PS - when I drink vodka I go for Russian vodka all the way! I boycott their boycott!!  
In fact, I wouldn't mind a blueberry shot right now, after a stressful day at work.    
I'm in London now, but last year, this time I was in Stockholm when the gay festival was on. It goes on for a week. They actually put gay pride flags on the buses and trams, in some flag-holders that they sometimes put the national flag in, on national holidays. This went on for a week. And inside the bus were ads for the Pride festival.  
When I was in the metro, some ladies with vests saying "Local municipality" (looked like office workers from the local municipality)  came on the train and handed out invitations for Pride week, saying "How are YOU celebrating the Pride festival?" blah, blah.. Implying that anyone who doesn't participate in this festival is some kind of reactionary! It's just too darn in-your-face.... 
I just thought "Leave me alone already!!!! I am not gay and I don't celebrate this nonsense!  If they must have a Pride festival I'd prefer if they had it somewhere outside town.  
All buses have gay flags for a week:    
Is this suitable?

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## Marcus

I wonder if gays can get a simplified visa to attend the parade in Sweden.

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## Throbert McGee

> I feel the same way. I would be just as much against ....  a* Pedophilia Pride* Parade
> [...]
> Perhaps I'm just too conservative, but that's my view.

 "Too conservative" is, perhaps, not quite the expression I would use.  
On the other hand, we've finally found a topic on which Hanna is to the right of FOX News...  ::    

> Is this suitable?

 What's unsuitable about that? Babies love bright, primary colors; it stimulates their visual development.

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## Throbert McGee

Regarding "Pride Parades" -- what the Russian government claims to be prohibiting is THIS:   
But what the phrasing of the law in fact prohibits is THIS, too:   
A "homophile rights" march from the early 1960s -- in Philadelphia or NYC, I'm not sure which. 
Is it *actually necessary* to ban the second example in order to prevent Russian society from going down the slippery slope to the first example? 
P.S. I just noticed this:   

> last year, this time I was in *Stockholm* when the gay festival was on. [...]  If they must have a Pride festival I'd prefer if they had it *somewhere outside town*.

 Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Stockholm (a) the largest and most populated city in all of Scandanavia, and (b) the political capital for all citizens of Sweden, including the homosexual ones?  
How incredibly STRANGE that they'd choose to have their Gayfest in Stockholm, of all places!

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## Throbert McGee

Говорит Бегемот: Хорошо, что наш уважаемый коллега Фагот просто был нормальным чёртом из ада, а не "faggot" в американском смысле -- а то российское правительство *сожгло бы рукопись!*   ::

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## Throbert McGee

And on a slightly related topic, recently here in the Washington DC region there's been a small controversy about a popular Mexican rock band called "Molotov" that will be performing in concert (somewhere in Maryland, just north of DC). Reason for the controversy: one of the their biggest hits is filled with Spanish words such as _puto_ and _maricón_, both of which are approximately equivalent to "c*cksucker" or п*дор. For this reason, some gays have complained that the band is homophobic, and some politically-correct straights agree -- though, on the other hand, the band and its supporters say that the words are intended in the sense of "corrupt f*cking politicians*, and not in an anti-gay sense. 
So, yet another example of "Do you mean fag as in homosexual, or fag as in Harley-Davidson biker?" (to quote _South Park_). Language is complicated!  ::  
P.S. If anyone's curious, _puto_ is literally the masculine form of _puta_ (бл*дь), while _maricón_ is literally "Big Mary" (the suffix _-on_ is an увеличительное in Spanish).

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## Doomer

> Regarding "Pride Parades" -- what the Russian government claims to be prohibiting is THIS:

 Just my opinion: people on that picture look weird. 
It also confirms that exhibitionists thrive on gay parades
FYI: being a gay isn't considered a mental disorder but being exhibitionist is.
Considering that most gays are under constant psychological pressure from the majority it's no wonder that some gay people might have some mental problems.

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## UhOhXplode

Yeah, I think the "mental illness" thing kinda kills the issue. But it's not like they made it illegal for them to do stuff like that at home.
Anyway, those parades look kinda meh and even old Sum 41 tracks trump Molotov. Imo, the only thing Molotov is bashing is peoples ears with old classical rock, lol!
If I go to parade I want to see Transformers, Dementors, Dragons (and not like the ones at the Aussie show!), Thestrals, Linkin Park, and this:    
Then I'll call it a parade!  ::

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## Basil77

I'm tired of all these recent gay discussions. It's not really a problem here at all. Nobody cares. For a change, here is a very good and funny video about some real problems in Russia and how our state TV blames USA:

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## maxmixiv

Талантливая песня. Значит, уже не коммунисты во всём виноваты ?
А я знал, с самого начала!  ::

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## Doomer

> For a change, here is a very good and funny video about some real problems in Russia and how our state TV blames USA:

 Yeah, blame the others, so people wouldn't notice the real cause of the problems 
Sadly this propaganda works for many people

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