# Forum About Russia Politics  Racism

## JKDMan

Is it still rampant with skinheads chasing and beating non-whites in broad daylight? When will Russia join the 21 century?   ::

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## JJ

> Is it still rampant with skinheads chasing and beating non-whites in broad daylight? When will Russia join the 21 century?

  ::   ::   ::   ::   ::  What do you smoke dude?

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## JKDMan

> Originally Posted by JKDMan  Is it still rampant with skinheads chasing and beating non-whites in broad daylight? When will Russia join the 21 century?          What do you smoke dude?

 Nothing.
Is that your only response on the rampant xenophobia taking place in Russia?

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## JJ

Where is xenophobia? I see NO xenophobia here.

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## Rtyom

I'm lucky to see no xenophobia at my place. And I don't think it's rising. It's just like outbursts here and there.

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## JKDMan

> Where is xenophobia? I see NO xenophobia here.

 Have you been to Moscow or St. Petersburg recently?

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## DDT

Well, maybe some Russians don't want the same problems that the West has invited upon themselves.

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## JKDMan

> Well, maybe some Russians don't want the same problems that the West has invited upon themselves.

 So you _approve_ of the widespread racist mentality. I appreciate honesty.  
If Russians are comfortable with being backwards people then perhaps they should accept being denigrated, mocked and condemed by outside media outlets.

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by DDT  Well, maybe some Russians don't want the same problems that the West has invited upon themselves.   So you _approve_ of the widespread racist mentality. I appreciate honesty.  
> If Russians are comfortable with being backwards people then perhaps they should accept being denigrated, mocked and condemed by outside media outlets.

 Where do you see the *widespread* racist mentality? There're simply not that many people of other races in Russia for racism to become widespread. There are a bunch of skinheads (I think 10-12 gangs numbering no more than 500-1000 men in total which is a teardrop for such a megapolis like Moscow). Their numbers are more formidable in any European country than in Russia. They cause trouble from time to time, of course, but that doesn't mean that racism is widespread in Russia.

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## JJ

> Have you been to Moscow or St. Petersburg recently?

 Is there a lot of xenophobia in Moscow and Peter? I'm surprised. When have you been to Moscow or Peter and what had happened to you there?

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## JKDMan

*Russian racism 'out of control'* 
Racist killings in Russia are "out of control", according to a report by international human rights watchdog Amnesty International. The report into violent racism shows that at least 28 people were killed and 366 were assaulted in 2005.  
This year there have already been a number of high-profile cases, including the death of a Senegalese student.  
Amnesty condemns discrimination by the authorities and a failure to properly record or investigate racist crimes.  
The Amnesty report, entitled "Russian Federation: Violent racism out of control", includes examples of police and prosecutors routinely classifying murders and serious assaults by skinhead extremists as lesser crimes of "hooliganism".  
Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen *said racist killings and violent attacks against foreigners, visible ethnic minorities and anti-racist campaigners in Russia were out of control.*  
"Some Russian authorities are turning a blind eye," she said. "Instead of seeing only 'hooliganism' in *vicious organised attacks on students from African, south-east Asian countries and non-Slavic Russians from Chechnya*, Russia's police and prosecutors need to tackle head-on the growing scourge of violent racism in Russia."  
She said President Vladimir Putin's government should adopt a comprehensive "plan of action" to combat racism and anti-Semitism.  
Protests  
Cases highlighted in the Amnesty report include the killing of nine-year-old Tajik girl Khursheda Sultonov.  
She was attacked with other members of her family in St Petersburg in February 2004 by a gang. Khursheda was stabbed nine times in the chest, stomach and arms and died at the scene.  
Another victim was Vu Anh Tuan, a 20-year-old Vietnamese student, stabbed to death in October 2004 by a gang of 18 skinheads near a metro station in St Petersburg.  
Dmitri Krayukhin, head of anti-racist organisation United Europe, told Amnesty he had received threats to "cut off your head".  
He has repeatedly been denied protection from the authorities in Orel, western Russia.  
The report also heard from members of the Roma community who have stopped travelling into St Petersburg city centre, having been the victims of attacks.  
Russian citizens and foreigners living in the big cities have led demonstrations against the attacks and the authorities' failure to tackle the problem.

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## Ramil

As someone said - if a Russian gets assaulted, robbed or killed - it's just an 'ordinary' crime (murder or robbery), but if a man of some other nationality gets assaulted - it's a racism. 
The fact that the person who was assaulted was of another nationality or race doesn't automatically mean that the motives of that crime were nationalistic or racist. A robber doesn't care about the color of your skin or which nationality you are. He only cares about money in your wallet.

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## DDT

> So you _approve_ of the widespread racist mentality. I appreciate honesty.  
> If Russians are comfortable with being backwards people then perhaps they should accept being denigrated, mocked and condemed by outside media outlets.

 I approve of Russians deciding for themselves who they let into their country. Not the foreign press or foreigners or so called human rights groups. It is their country and they can do as they wish. That is fair, isn't it?
That is not "backwards".  America is backwards. America lets her enemies inside for the sake of political correctness and then wonders what went wrong when 3,000 people are killed in New York in at least two attacks,  and another plot to attack Fort Dix!  
 If they don't want me there, then I won't go. If I go anyway, then I am asking for troubles. There are some countries that I won't go to. There are some countries that I won't go back to.

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## ReDSanchous

JKDMan, I've got an interesting question to ask you. Here it is - do you have or have you ever seen the same stats for the highly developed countries? It's really hard for me to analyse those figures you supplied us with in the report because I do not have any other sources to compare the stats for Russia to other countries. What about the USA then? The civil war in the second half of the 19th century? Wasn't it racism?  
DDT, well, probably there WAS a need for the US to let a lot of foregin people in when it simply didn't have enough educated people ready to work for the country. I mean that most of your economy seems to be run by those whose ancestors were not Americans. Nowadays, I wouldn't approve of US immigration policies either if I were American.

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## Scorpio

> *Russian racism 'out of control'* 
> Racist killings in Russia are "out of control", according to a report by international human rights watchdog Amnesty International. The report into violent racism shows that at least 28 people were killed and 366 were assaulted in 2005.

 So I just left wondering: how much racist murders happened, for example, in USA?
(Considering the well-known fact, what it in some cities it's dangerous to visit certain places even in the broad daylight...  ::  )   

> Amnesty condemns discrimination by the authorities and a failure to properly record or investigate racist crimes.  
> The Amnesty report, entitled "Russian Federation: Violent racism out of control", includes examples of police and prosecutors routinely classifying murders and serious assaults by skinhead extremists as lesser crimes of "hooliganism".

 If couple of thugs -- white and not-white -- have a fight and start beating each other, is it "racism" or "hooliganism"? I guess, the second.   

> "Some Russian authorities are turning a blind eye," she said. "Instead of seeing only 'hooliganism' in *vicious organised attacks on students from African, south-east Asian countries and non-Slavic Russians from Chechnya*, Russia's police and prosecutors need to tackle head-on the growing scourge of violent racism in Russia."

  

> Cases highlighted in the Amnesty report include the killing of nine-year-old Tajik girl Khursheda Sultonov.  
> She was attacked with other members of her family in St Petersburg in February 2004 by a gang. Khursheda was stabbed nine times in the chest, stomach and arms and died at the scene.  
> Another victim was Vu Anh Tuan, a 20-year-old Vietnamese student, stabbed to death in October 2004 by a gang of 18 skinheads near a metro station in St Petersburg.

 This article forgot to mention, what both of the crimes are investigated, and convicts are already under arrest.  http://www.avesta.tj/articles/40/7228.html 
Again, I wonder... if, for example, some uzbek boy is killed by group of russian boys, it is racism?
Probably.
But, if some russian boy is killed by group of uzbek boys... is it racism too... or WHAT?

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## Ramil

Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.

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## ReDSanchous

> Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.

 That's right! That's why I pointed out that stats for another country are needed in this issue.

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## chaika

Нашел данные об этом для США http://www.ncjrs.gov/spotlight/hate_crimes/facts.html

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## JKDMan

*Putin apologises for racism*
27/09/2005 15:12  - (SA)     
Moscow - President Vladimir Putin apologised on Tuesday for racist attacks that have been on the rise in Russia in recent years and promised that law enforcement services would redouble their efforts to stop them.  
"I would like to offer my apologies for the incidents that have taken place," Putin said in response to a question on the attacks.  
"We are going to intensify law enforcement activities and do everything we can so to make skinheads and fascist elements disappear from the political map of our country," he said.   *Racist violence was a source of concern to Russian society at large and to him personally, Putin added.*  
Racist attacks in Russia, generally targeting people from the Caucasus region and the former Soviet republics of Central Asia as well as foreign students from Africa and Asia, have occurred with increasing frequency in Russian cities in recent years, officials say.  
Earlier this month, foreign students protested in the northern city of Saint Petersburg after a Congolese student died as a result of wounds he sustained after being attacked in the street. Authorities said on Monday they had arrested four people in connection with the attack.

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## JKDMan

To all my racist Russian friends and all the "racist apologists" in this thread: Russia's population is losing 700,000 people per year. People are moving out of your country in droves to seek better lives elsewhere. I hope you realize that Russia will need people of other nationalities to help your country sustain its growth coming out of the backwardness of communism. Most of the civilized world utilizes and accepts immigrants of a different hue to their advantage. The fantasy of Russia for "whites only" is sad, backward, and outdated. 
To point out acts of hate in other countries does not justify barbaric behavior in your own back yard.   ::

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## charlestonian

Ужос какой  ::   ::   ::

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## charlestonian

> Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.

 Say what? I don't see any of this! Just the opposite!

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## Cesar

> Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.

 What??? 
C

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## Lampada

> To all my racist Russian friends and all the "racist apologists" in this thread...

 Очевидно, что Вы открыли эту тему в уверенности, что тут одни расисты собрались. Часто люди склонны обвинять других в том, в чём сами грешны.   ::

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## JKDMan

> Originally Posted by JKDMan  To all my racist Russian friends and all the "racist apologists" in this thread...   Очевидно, что Вы открыли эту тему в уверенности, что тут одни расисты собрались. Часто люди склонны обвинять других в том, в чём сами грешны.

 Respond to me in english, please.   ::

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by Lampada        Originally Posted by JKDMan  To all my racist Russian friends and all the "racist apologists" in this thread...   Очевидно, что Вы открыли эту тему в уверенности, что тут одни расисты собрались. Часто люди склонны обвинять других в том, в чём сами грешны.     Respond to me in english, please.

 You are right about Russia. It is the fact.

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## Rtyom

> Originally Posted by Lampada        Originally Posted by JKDMan  To all my racist Russian friends and all the "racist apologists" in this thread...   Очевидно, что Вы открыли эту тему в уверенности, что тут одни расисты собрались. Часто люди склонны обвинять других в том, в чём сами грешны.     Respond to me in english, please.

 She said, "You started the topic because of the obvious reason: The certainty that there are many racists here. It is often sinful people who are inclined to pronounce guilty the other."

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## JKDMan

> Originally Posted by JKDMan        Originally Posted by Lampada        Originally Posted by JKDMan  To all my racist Russian friends and all the "racist apologists" in this thread...   Очевидно, что Вы открыли эту тему в уверенности, что тут одни расисты собрались. Часто люди склонны обвинять других в том, в чём сами грешны.     Respond to me in english, please.     She said, "You started the topic because of the obvious reason: The certainty that there are many racists here. It is often sinful people who are inclined to pronounce guilty the other."

 Thanks for the translation.   ::   
I hope one day soon things will change. Russia is a great country with a beautiful languange and cultural history. People who might want to visit, live, or work there should be welcomed instead of attacked simply due to their nationality.

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## charlestonian

Not exactly. Here is my version:
She said:
It is obvious that you have started this topic in hopes that only racists have gathered in here.
 People are often inclined to accuse others of what are guilty of themselves.

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## charlestonian

JKDMan,
 Hey where are you from guy?

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## JKDMan

> Not exactly. Here is my version:
> She said:
> It is obvious that you have started this topic in hopes that only racists have gathered in here.
>  People are often inclined to accuse others of what are guilty of themselves.

 OK. Now this translation is entirely different!   ::   
She can believe whatever she wants about the creator of this discussion. It is irrelevant, as it kind of takes us off of the topic at hand (Russia's racist citizens), now doesn't it?   ::

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## JKDMan

> JKDMan,
>  Hey where are you from guy?

 A non-local bar.  :P

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian  Not exactly. Here is my version:
> She said:
> It is obvious that you have started this topic in hopes that only racists have gathered in here.
>  People are often inclined to accuse others of what are guilty of themselves.   OK. Now this translation is entirely different!    
> She can believe whatever she wants about the creator of this discussion. It is irrelevant, as it kind of takes us off of the topic at hand (Russia's racist citizens), now doesn't it?

 Agree

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian  JKDMan,
>  Hey where are you from guy?   A non-local bar.  :P

   ::

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil  Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.   Say what? I don't see any of this! Just the opposite!

  ::  I didn't say that, you did  ::

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## Ramil

> I hope one day soon things will change. Russia is a great country with a beautiful languange and cultural history. People who might want to visit, live, or work there should be welcomed instead of attacked simply due to their nationality.

 I say - come now and see for yourself. Just don't roam at evenings alone across some suburbs (these places are always dangerous to foreigners in nearly all "civilized" countries). And! No one is insured against accidents. Accidents do happen. But just because some people somewhere get attacked for some reason it doesn't mean that all these attacks happen because of the racism, and believe me, your chances of being robbed or swindled here are much higher than being attacked by a bunch of skinheads. But we're speaking about racism here. Not the criminal situation in general. In fact, your chances of being assaulted in New York, USA are, again, much higher than in Moscow.

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil  Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.   Say what? I don't see any of this! Just the opposite!    I didn't say that, you did

 Yes I did: blacks and hispanics cause more trouble here than whites!

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil  Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.   Say what? I don't see any of this! Just the opposite!    I didn't say that, you did    Yes I did: blacks and hispanics cause more trouble here than whites!

 To *JKDMan* now you see who is really a racist  :: 
By the way - he lives in USA  ::

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil  Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.   Say what? I don't see any of this! Just the opposite!    I didn't say that, you did    Yes I did: blacks and hispanics cause more trouble here than whites!   To *JKDMan* now you see who is really a racist 
> By the way - he lives in USA

 I told the truth. Black and hispanic gangs are out of control.

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by JKDMan  I hope one day soon things will change. Russia is a great country with a beautiful languange and cultural history. People who might want to visit, live, or work there should be welcomed instead of attacked simply due to their nationality.   I say - come now and see for yourself. Just don't roam at evenings alone across some suburbs (these places are always dangerous to foreigners in nearly all "civilized" countries). And! No one is insured against accidents. Accidents do happen. But just because some people somewhere get attacked for some reason it doesn't mean that all these attacks happen because of the racism, *and believe me, your chances of being robbed or swindled here are much higher than being attacked by a bunch of skinheads*. But we're speaking about racism here. Not the criminal situation in general. In fact, your chances of being assaulted in New York, USA are, again, much higher than in Moscow.

 This is sooooo comforting, I am going to Russia right now!!!

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## Rtyom

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by JKDMan  I hope one day soon things will change. Russia is a great country with a beautiful languange and cultural history. People who might want to visit, live, or work there should be welcomed instead of attacked simply due to their nationality.   I say - come now and see for yourself. Just don't roam at evenings alone across some suburbs (these places are always dangerous to foreigners in nearly all "civilized" countries). And! No one is insured against accidents. Accidents do happen. But just because some people somewhere get attacked for some reason it doesn't mean that all these attacks happen because of the racism, *and believe me, your chances of being robbed or swindled here are much higher than being attacked by a bunch of skinheads*. But we're speaking about racism here. Not the criminal situation in general. In fact, your chances of being assaulted in New York, USA are, again, much higher than in Moscow.   This is sooooo comforting, I am going to Russia right now!!!

 Вези, вези свои денежки.  ::  Хоть доллар падает, лишняя зелёная бумажка никогда не помешает.

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## DDT

Actually, Charlestoneian is right!   

> Based on the 1999 rates of first incarceration, an estimated 28% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 16% of Hispanic males and 4.4% of white males.

 http://www.runet.edu/~junnever/bw.htm    

> # The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
> -- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
> -- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)
> Sixty-four percent of prison inmates belonged to racial or ethnic minorities in 2001.

 http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

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## charlestonian

> Actually, Charlestoneian is right!      
> Based on the 1999 rates of first incarceration, an estimated 28% of black males will enter State or Federal prison during their lifetime, compared to 16% of Hispanic males and 4.4% of white males.
> 			
> 		  http://www.runet.edu/~junnever/bw.htm  
> [quote:3tpicokc] 
> # The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for
> -- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%)
> -- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%)

 http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm[/quote:3tpicokc] 
Thank you.

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## Plastic-Saint

I've noticed recently, there is a lot of racism in the world... especially in so-called civilized countries like the USA (my native land, actually). Now, don't jump to conclusions... I think most of the racism now-a-days is directed at "whites" (white isn't a race, but w/e... race is kind of trivial anyways) by so-called minorities (read: "oppressed"). Not the other way around. 
Political Correctness, the mechanism by which 'whites' are pressured to avoid saying or doing anything that might offend one of the poor poor 'oppressed' people. This very mechanism which is meant to protect from racism has, in fact, led to allowed racism against 'whites'. 
Laws protecting the rights of Hispanics, Africans, Arabs, <insert nationality/'race'> abound... but where are the laws protecting the rights of the 'white' people? They don't exist. 'whites' get no special treatment and are constantly subjected to racism but are condemned for ever saying or doing anything even closely resembling something racist. 
college scholarships, there are tons of race-restricted scholarships around today for every race besides 'whites'. also, non-'whites' are given preference in nearly everything including general scholarships. 
That is racism. Middle school children being sued for leaving a pork bone in sight of a Muslim, that is insanity. People coming to a country and expecting special treatment just because they are different, that is racism. If I went to a country in Africa or the Middle East, would I be given special treatment just because I wasn't part of the main culture? no. Why do you expect a great nation like Russia to treat people who aren't part of their culture specially? You are the one who thinks incorrectly here.  
 I'd place even the idiotic skin-heads over you in this. At least skin-heads are straight forward about their racism... the way some people practice their racism (for it is racism, expecting special treatment of specific races) is insidious. evil, even. convincing people it is their moral obligation to treat said race specially, is just wrong.

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## charlestonian

> I've noticed recently, there is a lot of racism in the world... especially in so-called civilized countries like the USA (my native land, actually). Now, don't jump to conclusions... I think most of the racism now-a-days is directed at "whites" (white isn't a race, but w/e... race is kind of trivial anyways) by so-called minorities (read: "oppressed"). Not the other way around. 
> Political Correctness, the mechanism by which 'whites' are pressured to avoid saying or doing anything that might offend one of the poor poor 'oppressed' people. This very mechanism which is meant to protect from racism has, in fact, led to allowed racism against 'whites'. 
> Laws protecting the rights of Hispanics, Africans, Arabs, <insert nationality/'race'> abound... but where are the laws protecting the rights of the 'white' people? They don't exist. 'whites' get no special treatment and are constantly subjected to racism but are condemned for ever saying or doing anything even closely resembling something racist. 
> college scholarships, there are tons of race-restricted scholarships around today for every race besides 'whites'. also, non-'whites' are given preference in nearly everything including general scholarships. 
> That is racism. Middle school children being sued for leaving a pork bone in sight of a Muslim, that is insanity. People coming to a country and expecting special treatment just because they are different, that is racism. If I went to a country in Africa or the Middle East, would I be given special treatment just because I wasn't part of the main culture? no. Why do you expect a great nation like Russia to treat people who aren't part of their culture specially? You are the one who thinks incorrectly here.  
>  I'd place even the idiotic skin-heads over you in this. At least skin-heads are straight forward about their racism... the way some people practice their racism (for it is racism, expecting special treatment of specific races) is insidious. evil, even. convincing people it is their moral obligation to treat said race specially, is just wrong.

 How true. These Russians don't know anything about racism, and yet they are screaming their lungs out about "racist" America!

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## JKDMan

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by JKDMan  I hope one day soon things will change. Russia is a great country with a beautiful languange and cultural history. People who might want to visit, live, or work there should be welcomed instead of attacked simply due to their nationality.   I say - come now and see for yourself. Just don't roam at evenings alone across some suburbs (these places are always dangerous to foreigners in nearly all "civilized" countries). And! No one is insured against accidents. Accidents do happen. But just because some people somewhere get attacked for some reason it doesn't mean that all these attacks happen because of the racism, *and believe me, your chances of being robbed or swindled here are much higher than being attacked by a bunch of skinheads*. But we're speaking about racism here. Not the criminal situation in general. In fact, your chances of being assaulted in New York, USA are, again, much higher than in Moscow.   This is sooooo comforting, I am going to Russia right now!!!

 See ya. Don't let the door knob hit you on the ass on the way out!   ::

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## JKDMan

> I've noticed recently, there is a lot of racism in the world... especially in so-called civilized countries like the USA (my native land, actually). Now, don't jump to conclusions... I think most of the racism now-a-days is directed at "whites" (white isn't a race, but w/e... race is kind of trivial anyways) by so-called minorities (read: "oppressed"). Not the other way around. 
> Political Correctness, the mechanism by which 'whites' are pressured to avoid saying or doing anything that might offend one of the poor poor 'oppressed' people. This very mechanism which is meant to protect from racism has, in fact, led to allowed racism against 'whites'. 
> Laws protecting the rights of Hispanics, Africans, Arabs, <insert nationality/'race'> abound... but where are the laws protecting the rights of the 'white' people? They don't exist. 'whites' get no special treatment and are constantly subjected to racism but are condemned for ever saying or doing anything even closely resembling something racist. 
> college scholarships, there are tons of race-restricted scholarships around today for every race besides 'whites'. also, non-'whites' are given preference in nearly everything including general scholarships. 
> That is racism. Middle school children being sued for leaving a pork bone in sight of a Muslim, that is insanity. People coming to a country and expecting special treatment just because they are different, that is racism. If I went to a country in Africa or the Middle East, would I be given special treatment just because I wasn't part of the main culture? no. Why do you expect a great nation like Russia to treat people who aren't part of their culture specially? You are the one who thinks incorrectly here.  
>  I'd place even the idiotic skin-heads over you in this. At least skin-heads are straight forward about their racism... the way some people practice their racism (for it is racism, expecting special treatment of specific races) is insidious. evil, even. convincing people it is their moral obligation to treat said race specially, is just wrong.

 This post is laughable. So much ignorance I don't even know where to begin!   ::  I'll have to deal with this when I have more time.

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## JKDMan

[quote=charlestonian] 

> Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by "Ramil":2pl5uj78  Well, if we count up all the crimes being committed presently in USA against people of Afro-American or Latino-American background we will have USA as the most racist regime on Earth.   Say what? I don't see any of this! Just the opposite!    I didn't say that, you did    Yes I did: blacks and hispanics cause more trouble here than whites!   To *JKDMan* now you see who is really a racist 
> By the way - he lives in USA

 I told the truth. Black and hispanic gangs are out of control.[/quote:2pl5uj78]
You're from Charleston, South Carolina I presume. You sure do a good job of dispelling the myth of the racist southern redneck.   ::

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## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by JKDMan  I hope one day soon things will change. Russia is a great country with a beautiful languange and cultural history. People who might want to visit, live, or work there should be welcomed instead of attacked simply due to their nationality.   I say - come now and see for yourself. Just don't roam at evenings alone across some suburbs (these places are always dangerous to foreigners in nearly all "civilized" countries). And! No one is insured against accidents. Accidents do happen. But just because some people somewhere get attacked for some reason it doesn't mean that all these attacks happen because of the racism, *and believe me, your chances of being robbed or swindled here are much higher than being attacked by a bunch of skinheads*. But we're speaking about racism here. Not the criminal situation in general. In fact, your chances of being assaulted in New York, USA are, again, much higher than in Moscow.   This is sooooo comforting, I am going to Russia right now!!!   See ya. Don't let the door knob hit you on the ass on the way out!

 Just joking... Sh!t... I wouldn't go to Russia even if you paid my way!

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## JJ

JKDMan, when will you stop lying and join the 21 century? All russians here (actually Ramil is tatar I guess, Lampada is jew) said that there is no rasism in Russia like you said. I'm living in a town with about 200 000 population and we have ONLY ONE black here. He's a doctor, he drives an old used car (speaking frankly his car is a lemon) and NO ONE beats his ass because NO ONE here reads the BS what you read. What are we doing wrong???

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## charlestonian

> JKDMan, when will you stop lying and join the 21 century? All russians here (actually Ramil is tatar I guess, Lampada is jew) said that there is no racism in Russia like you said. I'm living in a town with about 200 000 population and we have ONLY ONE black here. He's a doctor, he drives an old used car (speaking frankly his car is a lemon) and NO ONE beats his ass because NO ONE here reads the BS what you read. What are we doing wrong???

 Come down comrade... You have no idea what this is all about, so hush now, OK?

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## Lampada

> Come down comrade... You have no idea what this is all about, so hush now, OK?

 А как же тогда "свобода слова"?

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## JJ

> Come down comrade... You have no idea what this is all about, so hush now, OK?

 Who the heck are you cowboy for hushing me?

----------


## Plastic-Saint

> This post is laughable. So much ignorance I don't even know where to begin! Laughing I'll have to deal with this when I have more time.

 Ignorance? I may be ignorant in many things, but I grew up the only white kid in a trailer park in Texas... I know what racism is. Anyways, like I said at the beginning of my previous post (in parenthesis) race is trivial... and in fact most of the 'races' you or I would speak about are not really classical races, they're simply labels placed on specific cultures... through a largely American tinted lens...  
That is besides the point though, which I think I need to express more clearly instead of rambling about reasons why you're wrong and are in fact a racist yourself. (as someone suggested earlier in this thread, essentially, look for the log in your own eye before pointing out the splinter in your neighbor's!) 
The resident Russians have already stated in this forum: Everyone has the same chance of getting robbed, beaten, or even killed in Russia. The so-called skin-heads are small groups which are not roving the streets looking for non-slavs to kill.  
What you want to happen is for the native Russians to give non-russians special treatment. Some kind of special protection against any form of persecution, even if Russians themselves have to deal with such problems. You are seeking special treatment for a few select groups based on their "race". You Sir, are a racist. This is the most logical definition of racism.

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## shadow1

I am not caucasian and I have been to Russia, and I have concluded that
most Russians are racist.  Of course I have not been beaten, stabbed or
shot, but there is often a notable uneasyness when speaking to Russians.
It was very humiliating, degrading, and frustrating experience.
Some of the Russians I have met treat me well, maybe because they
think I have a lot of money, some treat me with caution because they
think I might be a spy or something.   ::   Whether or not they treat
me well or not, it is still racism because they treat me differently. 
In America, especially in the city I live in, caucasians are a minority and
there is so much diversity, it is almost impossible to discriminate.  But
even in parts of America where caucasians are predominant,
Americans depend greatly on foreign imports from China and Japan 
and many music and sports figures are African American.  It is difficult 
to be racist if you drive a foreign car, watch sports, and listen to
music.  Even our food is international. 
In Russia, everybody is caucasian.  People drive Russian made cars,
listen to Russian singers, eat Russian food, watch Russian sports.  Many 
Russians have never met a non-Russian person.   
Saying that there is a black person in your town who has never been
beaten does not prove anything.  The proper question to ask is whether
or not he is treated the same as everybody else. Is this person your 
friend?  Have you ever asked him what he thinks about racism in Russia?

----------


## Ramil

> Whether or not they treat
> me well or not, it is still racism because they treat me differently.

 It's just xenophobia. An ordinary Russian is not sure of his own nationality himselft, not to mention the nationality of others. The thing you're describing is just cautious approach to any outsider (be he from another town or country - no matter). The Russians are very suspicious and cautious to the point of idiocy. They may murmur something to each other pointing at you but generally they would just watch and would not mistreat you in any way.   

> In Russia, everybody is caucasian.  People drive Russian made cars, listen to Russian singers, eat Russian food, watch Russian sports.  Many Russians have never met a non-Russian person.   
> Saying that there is a black person in your town who has never been
> beaten does not prove anything.  The proper question to ask is whether
> or not he is treated the same as everybody else.

 Yes he is. I know what you mean but you're wrong about the uniformity of the population of Russia. There are more than 150 nationalities live here. The nationalities you (being in America) haven't never heard of.
To you we all are the Russians (you don't see the difference between a Byelorussian, Ukrainian, even an Uzbek and an ethnic Russian, nevertheless we identify them and don't call them Russians).  Every nationality has been living here for several hundred years at least and every nationality has a collection of grudges against the Russians (who else is considered oppressors and invaders throughout the former USSR).
Some southern nations even have a proverb "If you have a Russian friend - wait for the bad news". Yes there is nationalism in Russia but it's directed at our neighbours, living among us not against some foreigners.
Some Ukrainians dislike the Russians and some Russians dislike them as well just like the Scotts dislike the Englishmen and vice versa. There's nothing new about that. Many Russians dislike people from Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan but that's because they rarely see any prominent representatives of these nations but mostly tradesmen from bazaars who are generally not very bright and with an arrogant and impudent attitude.
But you would never see any mistreatment against black skinned people. They are just too few to make any difference to us. They are just an exotic wonder because they are so rare here. That's why they cause a risen eyebrow but that's not because people hate them. They didn't make our life miserable and there's really nothing we can blame them for since we don't share a common past like in USA.

----------


## BappaBa

> In Russia, everybody is caucasian.  People drive Russian made cars,
> listen to Russian singers, eat Russian food, watch Russian sports.  Many 
> Russians have never met a non-Russian person.

 It seems to me, you never were in Russia.

----------


## gRomoZeka

> In Russia, everybody is caucasian.  People drive Russian made cars, listen to Russian singers, eat Russian food, watch Russian sports.

 Sure some of them drive Russian made cars, listen to Russian singers, eat Russian food, watch Russian sports. What's wrong with that? They don't do that because they are racists, but because they are Russians, and that is their culture.  
Anyway, you forgot to mention, that many Russians love non-Russian cars, singers and food (don't know, what you meant by Russian sport, though. Are you offended that Russians don't watch baseball?)   

> Many Russians have never met a non-Russian person.

 Exactly. Especially older people or people from small towns. So it's stupid to label the uneasyness you talked about as racism. For some people you're alien, you're different, even exotic. They just don't know how to treat you. Or, probably, they don't understand you or your behavior. Or maybe they are just shy. Or may be you acted like a jerk (sorry), all high and mighty. 
These are after-effects of the iron curtain, when people had very limited opportunities to meet non-Russian-speaking people. So I'd rather call it residual xenophobia, then a racism. 
PS. And you spy-remark is just... um.. You were kidding, right? Otherwise you draw information about Russians from Hollywood movies and Clancy's thrillers.

----------


## Ramil

Люди, только я вас умоляю, не путайте caucasian с кавказцем.  :: 
Сaucasian у них - это средиземноморский. (Человек с белой кожей, европеец) - долбанная политкорректность.

----------


## Yazeed

Wow, this post is so retarded I don't even know where to begin.  Putting aside the "whites are omg oppressed b/c of PC" crowd, and those who hint at approving the assaults on foreigners in Russia (DDT, I am deeply disappointed in you), I'll just jump to the point. 
Russians by and large are not racist.  Not one of them has said anything against me for being an Arab (not seriously, at least).  While there is a higher chance for me of being beaten up in Russia than, say, your average Russian, I'm not the one to go around and claim that Russians are racist.  I've met a Russian here, in Toronto, where I live, who was flat out racist (to me, at least) (and he wasn't even an ethnic Russian but we'll let that slip), does that mean that Russians are overall racist? Err, no.  Honestly, though, the Russians I've met so far have been extremely nice to me, they always invite me to their gatherings and even invite me to ski trips with them.  While many may act "improperly" towards foreigners, that's because Russia isn't accustomed to political correctness.  In fact, one of the reasons I like Russians is just that, they speak their minds without any constraints.  It's refreshing to meet a crowd that's not bound by political correctness (read: open and honest), and actually makes my friendship with them something I truly cherish. I've always had a positive impression of Russians, and they always seemed very smart and kind that I just can't believe what I hear in the media.  
And honestly, as an Arab, I can tell you that Arabs are far more racist (and openly so) than Russians (mostly against South Asians and blacks, but not against whites because many Arabs have European blood).  Why don't you go out and say 'OMG ARABS ARE TEH RACISTNESS!"? We might not be killing South Asians or blacks, mainly because many Arab countries are bound by authoritarian law, but trust me, the negative feeling is still there. 
I'm not the one to judge whether Russians in _Russia_ are racist, because I've never been there, and it does make me sad sometimes that I might never go there because of the racism (of which Russians themselves have warned me), but I'm not going to roam on random forums and tarnish an entire country, because that is extremely childish and retarded, and it won't change a thing.

----------


## JJ

> Some of the Russians I have met treat me well, maybe because they think I have a lot of money, some treat me with caution because they think I might be a spy or something.

 Fine. They treat you well because of your money, they treat you bad because of they racists or idiots who think that you are spy (btw, i've never seen such idiots in my life though I met a lot of russians). Man, don't you think that you look strage and agressive to them? For example I've noticed when americans feel uncomfortable they start talking very loud, making stupied jokes, talking to strangers, smiling, smiling, smiling and laughing... so for russians they look agressive and unequal, kinda mad people. Maybe the problem is in your aversion of different culture?

----------


## Ramil

And, generally racism or nationalism in Russia is expressed with jokes and mocking, and not with fists and baseball bats.

----------


## JJ

> And, generally racism or nationalism in Russia is expressed with jokes and mocking

 I would say that is racism in western style. In Russia it isn't racism thank God!

----------


## Yazeed

> Originally Posted by Ramil  And, generally racism or nationalism in Russia is expressed with jokes and mocking   I would say that is racism in western style. In Russia it isn't racism thank God!

 AMEN! 
EDIT: Actually, I take that back.  Come to think of it, what makes racist jokes so awesome is the fact that they're a taboo in the West.  Really, if it were legal it wouldn't be as good.

----------


## Оля

Rasists are the people who think that the word  "negro" is improper.
In Russia this word ("негр") is an absolutely usual word, it means a color of skin only and nothing more.

----------


## Ramil

> Rasists are the people who think that the word  "negro" is improper.

 No, those are just idiots. Rasits are the people who think that a single nation (usually theirs) is better and above all others. They invented the political correctness, they may be polite and not offensive but they think their race is better. It is that thinking that needs to be corrected not the words they speak.

----------


## Plastic-Saint

> "whites are omg oppressed b/c of PC"

 rofl... note that i always say 'white' because i dont honestly believe it is a race, and really the whole idea of race is outdated and has been proven to make no difference (it is, after all, simply the color of the skin and a few other minor differences mostly physical... the rest is culture)... but to argue with someone who deals in the terms one has to use similar terms. 
I was just pointing out that JDK is racist in his thinking, wanting special treatment for people based on their skin color or heritage. That he should look at his own argument before accusing all Russians of being racists. The only reason I'm even posting in this thread is because I'm bored and have been drinking.... lol... I have no idea if I'm even making any sense right now.  
anyways, hope I don't come off as thinking white people are oppressed, or that anyone is oppressed in America: because they aren't unless they're choosing to be oppressed. 
I had probably better stop posting here when i've been in the bottle--good night/afternoon/morning/midday/whatever time it is where you all are.

----------


## Cesar

> Rasists are the people who think that the word  "negro" is improper.
> In Russia this word ("негр") is an absolutely usual word, it means a color of skin only and nothing more.

 If you call "negro" some people of dark skin in some parts of the world then you would know how this word is, sometimes, improper. 
C

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## Оля

[quote=Cesar]If you call "negro" some people of dark skin in some parts of the world then you would know how this word is, sometimes, improper. 
C

----------


## Cesar

[quote=Оля][quote=Cesar]If you call "negro" some people of dark skin in some parts of the world then you would know how this word is, sometimes, improper. 
C

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## Ramil

There is no special nation or race. No one deserves any special attention or attitude. All nations and races are equally bad.  ::  There are no 'good nations or races'.

----------


## Cesar

> There is no special nation or race. No one deserves any special attention or attitude. All nations and races are equally bad.  There are no 'good nations or races'.

 Exactly! The problem is when some people think they are superior or inferior in any way. 
C

----------


## DDT

I agree with Оля there is no reason for this word to be taken as offensive. As a matter of fact it is racist and offensive to think that negro is offensive.  
Hey! I know a white guy who got off the plane  in Russia wearing a cowboy hat and boots that was beaten and robbed. Does that mean Russians hate cowboys??? Hmmm? .....Or maybe Russians don't like stupid people!  
Hey! I also know a white guy that was a teacher in Russia that got beat up and robbed. Does that mean that Russians don't like teachers?  Hmm?  ....Wait! ....... Well... I don't blame them for that!

----------


## Cesar

> I agree with Оля there is no reason for this word to be taken as offensive. As a matter of fact it is racist and offensive to think that negro is offensive.

 At least for me it's not racist nor offensive either in English or Spanish but maybe you should ask many people of dark skin about it. 
C

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## gRomoZeka

They probably mean that it isn't offensive in Russian, whatever people with dark skin may think. It may seem offensive only to those who applies their language rules to Russian. 
In Russian it's a literary word, which means "A person of Negroid race", where Negroid is a scientific term, so the word "негр" (Negro) is absolutly neutral, no more offencive than "African" or "black".
By the way, isn't it stupid that "black" is ok, while "Negro", which means the same, only in other language, is not?

----------


## Ramil

They were brought up to think like that. It's not their fault, really. It's just someone, some time ago told them to take offense and they had been doing it ever since. And I strongly suspect that the man who told them to take offence at the word 'negro' was a white male of the Anglo-Saxon origin.

----------


## Ramil

> Does that mean Russians hate cowboys???

 Yes!  ::  (DDT, I am not seriously)

----------


## Yazeed

> They were brought up to think like that. It's not their fault, really. It's just someone, some time ago told them to take offense and they had been doing it ever since. And I strongly suspect that the man who told them to take offence at the word 'negro' was a white male of the Anglo-Saxon origin.

 It has more to do with the time it used in.  Mostly you'd find it in pre-Civil Rights literature (i.e. science, academia) in the South, and so the word Negro itself evokes the image of racial segregation and racial supremacy in the South.  (Southern USA, that is)

----------


## Cesar

> They probably mean that it isn't offensive in Russian, whatever people with dark skin may think. It may seem offensive only to those who applies their language rules to Russian. 
> In Russian it's a literary word, which means "A person of Negroid race", where Negroid is a scientific term, so the word "негр" (Negro) is absolutly neutral, no more offencive than "African" or "black".
> By the way, isn't it stupid that "black" is ok, while "Negro", which means the same, only in other language, is not?

 I don't think it's stupid. As you said "негр" has another connotation in Russian. However, "negro" even though means literally the same it can be used in other ways in other languages... a matter of culture. That's the reason why in one of my previous posts I pointed one of the words mentioned -"negro" and not the word "негр". 
C

----------


## Cesar

> They were brought up to think like that. It's not their fault, really. It's just someone, some time ago told them to take offense and they had been doing it ever since. And I strongly suspect that the man who told them to take offence at the word 'negro' was a white male of the Anglo-Saxon origin.

 ... and a Spanish man or any other who probably had slaves in other parts of the world. 
C

----------


## Оля

> I pointed one of the words mentioned -"negro" and not the word "негр".

 "Negro" is translated as "негр" into Russian.
So ok, if you say "negro" in Russia, then again no one will be offenced.   ::

----------


## JJ

> Really, if it were legal it wouldn't be as good.

 How do you find this joke: A russian, an american and a german were captured by cannibals. The cannibal's chief gave 2 metal balls for everyone and said "I'll give freedom for anyone who'll make me laugh in 2 weeks and eat anyone who won't" Then he put them into prison cells. In 2 weeks he opens the 1st cell and sees how the american is juggle with metal balls. He doesn't laugh and they kill and eat the american. Then chief open the next cell, the german starts showing the hocus-pocus... The chief doesn't laugh and the cannibals kill and eat the german. Then the chief open the last cell goes into the cell and the cannibals hear the chief's laugh. "What does he show to you, chief?" - "Nothing" "But why are you laughing?"- "Because he's broken one of the metal ball... and he's lost another one". 
Or another rasist joke:
How does make a visit..
...an englishman? - With dignity.
...a french? - With his wife.
...a russian - With the bottle of vodka.
...a jew? - With the cake.
How do they come back?
...an englishman - with dignity
...a french - with the host's wife
...a russian - with the black eye
...a jew - with the cake.
What do they think:
...an englishman - have i been dignified or not?
...a french - it's interesting, who picked up my wife?
...a russian - i also kicked his ass!
...a jew - whomever can I visit now? 
Do you find it offensive?

----------


## Cesar

> Originally Posted by Cesar  I pointed one of the words mentioned -"negro" and not the word "негр".   "Negro" is translated as "негр" into Russian.
> So ok, if you say "negro" in Russia, then again no one will be offenced.

 Maybe they won't understand it and maybe I wouldn't find people of that color there  ::  
C

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## gRomoZeka

> Do you find it offensive?

 I liked the first one.  :: 
The second is so-so (the guest shouldn't come with the bottle of vodka, the host should provide it  :: ).

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## Оля

> Maybe they won't understand it

 They'll understand it as "негр".   

> and maybe I wouldn't find people of that color there

 You will.

----------


## Yazeed

> Do you find it offensive?

 I didn't really understand the first one   ::   
but the second one, I chuckled. )

----------


## Ramil

> Originally Posted by JJ  Do you find it offensive?   I didn't really understand the first one    
> but the second one, I chuckled. )

 
- Где шары?
- Первый разбил... второй прое.ал куда-то. 
It mocks a 'typical' Russian trait to lose things (even as important as these balls which may cost you a life) and don't care about that  ::

----------


## scotcher

It can be funny watching the total breakdown of understanding that can occur when Americans use the word "caucasion" to describe white people, while talking to Russians. 
It's also amusing that the absurd "caucasion" is seen as an acceptable way to describe a white person, while "negro" is unnaceptable for black people. 
One from Blighty: 
A person from Afghanistan can be an Afgan.
A person from Tajikistan can be a Tajik.
A person from Uzbekistan can be an Uzbek.
But a person from Pakistan is... no, no, _no_... a Pakistani. 
Logically, a Pakistani should come from a country called Pakistanistan.  ::

----------


## Ty

I've just read this thread and it goes back and forth
Russians/Americans are racist.  Russians/Americans are not racist. 
Some people are some people aren't.  
 I don't see the point in trying to generalize a population with statistics.
It wont tell you anything about anyone.  The more you average/generalize the more you distort reality blah blah blah.  
I also think crime has less to do with race and more to do with being poor.

----------


## charlestonian

Conclusion y'all: russkies is racists, an' merkins ain't  ::

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## sperk

Immigration. Racism. Whites have killed themselves off with civil wars, world wars, purges, abortion and birth control. But their economic engine, capitalism, requires labor and growth. That's why their countries are being overrun by browns, blacks and yellows. It's not that the western nations are morally superior and are building multi-ethnic nations from the goodness of their hearts. Will Russia follow? Time will tell. You have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture before calling a people racist.

----------


## Ramil

> Conclusion y'all: russkies is racists, an' merkins ain't

 And someday elephants will fly too

----------


## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian  Conclusion y'all: russkies is racists, an' merkins ain't    And someday elephants will fly too

 Shoot... they are flying already! Here is one, just flew by...

----------


## DDT

I have heard JJ's first joke before except it was "two cowboys" who lost one ball and broke the other. It was told to me by my boss. 
Also I don't think that "Negro" is thought to be offensive by anyone who is even remotely educated.  It just sounds old fashioned. I use it because i can never remember the latest name Black people in America want to be called by.  ::   
One of my oldest friends is a black man and he often jokingly refers to himself as "a Negro man".

----------


## Оля

> I use it because i can never remember the latest name Black people in America want to be called by.

   ::   ::

----------


## charlestonian

It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that  ::

----------


## scotcher

> It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that

 I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?

----------


## Rtyom

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian  Conclusion y'all: russkies is racists, an' merkins ain't    And someday elephants will fly too   Shoot... they are flying already! Here is one, just flew by...

 How much did you smoke today?  ::

----------


## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian  It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that    I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?

 Yes there is the difference: we are talking about racial slur, and not just any offensive word.

----------


## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by charlestonian  Conclusion y'all: russkies is racists, an' merkins ain't    And someday elephants will fly too   Shoot... they are flying already! Here is one, just flew by...   How much did you smoke today?

 I don't smoke, I drink  ::

----------


## scotcher

> Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by charlestonian  It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that    I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?   Yes there is the difference: we are talking about racial slur, and not just any offensive word.

 I include racial slurs in the list of names my mates can call me.

----------


## charlestonian

> Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by charlestonian  It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that    I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?   Yes there is the difference: we are talking about racial slur, and not just any offensive word.   I include racial slurs in the list of names my mates can call me.

 Are you black?

----------


## scotcher

> Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by charlestonian  It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that    I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?   Yes there is the difference: we are talking about racial slur, and not just any offensive word.   I include racial slurs in the list of names my mates can call me.   Are you black?

 Umm... is it only black people who can be subject to racial slurs?

----------


## charlestonian

[quote=scotcher] 

> Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by "charlestonian":26exakus  It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that    I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?   Yes there is the difference: we are talking about racial slur, and not just any offensive word.   I include racial slurs in the list of names my mates can call me.   Are you black?

 Umm... is it only black people who can be subject to racial slurs?[/quote:26exakus] 
No but I was talking about blacks: "It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that."

----------


## scotcher

[quote=charlestonian][quote=scotcher] 

> Originally Posted by scotcher        Originally Posted by charlestonian        Originally Posted by "scotcher":1mcimqxk        Originally Posted by "charlestonian":1mcimqxk  It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that    I dunno. My best mates can and do call me names that would earn a stranger a smack in the teeth if they said it to my face. Is that any different?   Yes there is the difference: we are talking about racial slur, and not just any offensive word.   I include racial slurs in the list of names my mates can call me.   Are you black?

 Umm... is it only black people who can be subject to racial slurs?[/quote:1mcimqxk] 
No but I was talking about blacks: "It's funny that blacks often call each other "n!gger" but they hate when whites call them that."[/quote:1mcimqxk] 
Yes, I got that. I was just pointing out, evidently too obliquely for you, that the rules of etiquette and social interaction are inevitably different between members of the same social group than between members of different social groups.

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## charlestonian

I have placed this in Putin topic: somehow, it came down to this over there: 
"I'll tell you more: I hate those blacks who rob and kill innocent people; who pimp white girls, and cut them to pieces when they disobey their orders; all those gangs; drive-by shootings; their stupid rap; and just simply dumb look on their ugly faces! Here..."

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

I, of course, agree, like usual, with Scotcher, who is usually the most sane person among us, being the insane. I like commas too. My buddies call me names like homo (although I am straight), Swede (being Norwegian, that is an insult   ::  ), Norwegian bastard, etc. These kind of things I accept from my friends, but from strangers or people I don't know too well, it would go very bad.

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## DDT

Yes, but here is the truth! The word "n!gger" was not even considered offensive until some "activist"  types decided that "whitey" couldn't use it anymore, a few decades ago, in America that is. In Australia it was a perfectly acceptable word until *after* I arrived in the USA.
 Now, it has changed in Australia too. 
On my trip back to Australia last year, I found that they had changed the name of my favourite brand of Licorice sticks to something more current and politically correct.   ::

----------


## kalinka_vinnie

Yes, but the word n!gger was used in America as a very mean slur. It wasn't said in the form of the following conversation: 
- Good day, how do you, my good n!gger?
- Fine thanks, Mr. Wicklepick
- Well, I better be off. See you later, my friend! Say hello to your good n!gger friend, Mr. Brown! 
But rather like:
- These dirty n!ggers are everywhere
- I tell ya, I don't want no n!gger near my family. I'd kill the n!gger right then and there 
It's Americans' own fault that the word became taboo, because they overused it as a mean racial slur. The word itself is fine, but it has too much negative connections with it these days.

----------


## gRomoZeka

> ...Swede (being Norwegian, that is an insult   )...

 They are evil!   ::

----------


## scotcher

> I have placed this in Putin topic: somehow, it came down to this over there: 
> "I'll tell you more: I hate those blacks who rob and kill innocent people; who pimp white girls, and cut them to pieces when they disobey their orders; all those gangs; drive-by shootings; their stupid rap; and just simply dumb look on their ugly faces! Here..."

 Isn't it enough to just state that you hate _people_ who commits those acts, or that you hate the acts themselves? Are there no white, hispanic, or asian people involved in robbery, murder, prostitution, etc?  
Do you think it is worse when it's blacks doing it, or do you just like to associate those acts exclusively with black people for some reason of your own?

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## Lampada

> Isn't it enough to just state that you hate _people_ who commits those acts, or that you hate the acts themselves? Are there no white, hispanic, or asian people involved in robbery, murder, prostitution, etc?  
> Do you think it is worse when it's blacks doing it, or do you just like to associate those acts exclusively with black people for some reason of your own?

   ::   Учителем небось работаешь.

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## DDT

*Klinky Ol' Boy Wrote:*  

> It's Americans' own fault that the word became taboo, because they overused it as a mean racial slur. The word itself is fine, but it has too much negative connections with it these days.

 I was not aware of any of that. I have never seen the word used that way. It must have happened before I came to USA. I know plenty of people who still use the word but it is just used just as one would use any word to describe any nationality. I even know quite a few American Indians who use the word and I know they mean no offence.

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## DDT

Hey, JDKman! Since you are back, why don't you tell this racist how your teaching gig went in Russia? It doesn't look like this topic is going anywhere further.
_________________

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## Vincent Tailors

To the original poster:
Man, what the hell are you talking about? Imagine a situation, like you're inviting some friends to your house, they come and there's a stranger behind their backs. You didn't invite him, you don't want him to be at your place, but he stays, smokes your  zigarettes, drinks your vodka, beats up your tamed bear, puts on your ear-flapped hat. What'd you do? I bet you would deliver him a beautiful kick and force him out. Wouldn't you? Or would you knee before him asking if he wants your wife/gf, offer him your bed, your fridge and your tree JUST because he's an unwanted guest? Ridiculous. 
So if you're not seeking troubles, keep away from where you're UNWELCOMED. Noone forces you to come, noone forces you to stay. If you want to -- the borders are open, but don't expect anything positive about YOU and YOUR staying. And  unless you cause troubles, noone's going to butcher you, except for some "gopnicks" who don't make any distinction between natives and foreigners. 
In advance... I treat blacks and arabs very WELL unless they bother me like someone with your attitude, yapping about their f@cked up rights and lousy privilegies.

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## Vincent Tailors

Мы уважаем все демократические ценности и страна наша являет собой образец политкорректности. И нам непонятна истерия развязанная недружественными нам государствами.
- Спасибо, господин президент, за разъяснение вашей позиции.
- Хайль Гитлер – тупо спалился президент Эстонии.  
(C) Frumich

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## Rtyom

> To the original poster...

 Well said.

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## Yazeed

> To the original poster:
> Man, what the hell are you talking about? Imagine a situation, like you're inviting some friends to your house, they come and there's a stranger behind their backs. You didn't invite him, you don't want him to be at your place, but he stays, smokes your  zigarettes, drinks your vodka, beats up your tamed bear, puts on your ear-flapped hat. What'd you do? I bet you would deliver him a beautiful kick and force him out. Wouldn't you? Or would you knee before him asking if he wants your wife/gf, offer him your bed, your fridge and your tree JUST because he's an unwanted guest? Ridiculous. 
> So if you're not seeking troubles, keep away from where you're UNWELCOMED. Noone forces you to come, noone forces you to stay. If you want to -- the borders are open, but don't expect anything positive about YOU and YOUR staying. And  unless you cause troubles, noone's going to butcher you, except for some "gopnicks" who don't make any distinction between natives and foreigners.

 Exactly.  I couldn't have put it any better.

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## iamjames

Ok, so for one thing, what are skin heads? I am not from Russia, and I didnt take the time to read all 8 pages of this post, so if someone explaided it I missed it... Sorry, but it would be much appreciated for an educational time for me! 
Ok so, as I made my subject: Story Time: here it is... 
I live in the USA, and I went to Mobil Alabama, to help out a family down there. Well this family lived in a one room shack in the ghetto, and I was sure that the roof would cave in at any given point of time. Well this family had 7 children, a widdowed aunt and her 4 children, and the grand parents, all living in one room, with an out house for the bathroom. They had to go to a local shower once a week to bathe. Well I went to church one day with the family (I am not religious, but I went anyway), and the family forgot the family bible, which was very important to them. Well the youngest daughter who was 5 and I went to walk back to the home to get it. On the way there, a little black car drove by. Mimi (the child) told me that it would be best if we walked faster, she didnt want any trouble. Well me being 14 at the time was niieve and had no idea what she could be talking about and I said we would be fine. Lo and Behold the car turned around, and as soon as they reached us I was shot at. I jumped into the ditch and grabbed Mimi to cover her up. The man walked out of the car, and told me to get up. I did as he told me, for he had a gun, I would not dare to disobey. I put the gun and I will never remember what he told me: "You better get your f***ing white a** out of here before I shoot you." Calmly I grabbed Mimi, and walked back to her home, which was two houses down the road. We stayed there until her mother came home from chuch. Needless to say, there is alot of Racism in the states still. 
James

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## iamjames

> I have placed this in Putin topic: somehow, it came down to this over there: 
> "I'll tell you more: I hate those blacks who rob and kill innocent people; who pimp white girls, and cut them to pieces when they disobey their orders; all those gangs; drive-by shootings; their stupid rap; and just simply dumb look on their ugly faces! Here..."

 Yeah me too! Read my last comment and you will know exactly why!!!!

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## Yazeed

While I'm not white (read earlier post), I still believe that racism goes both ways, and iamjames' story can attest to that 
However, having said that, it seems that many people took the initial thread for an anti-white rambling (before iamjames' participation).  And then it just turned into 'omg whites are discriminated against but ppl can be racist to whites but not the other way around" hissy fit, and then turns into a thread of victimizing a race (which, I would surmise, many of you see as a reason to critique the other race), and sweeping everyone under the banner of white vs. non-white. 
While I don't like the initial post to begin with, does it warrant all this racist reaction?  
Yes, racism goes both ways, but why do some of you (those who were first to answer) have to sink to their level?  
And iamjames, I am glad to see that you survived this and I commend you for your bravery.  Низкий тебе поклон.

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## DDT

What racist reaction? There is no racism here. Just an exchange of ideas and thoughts. Perhaps you need to visit  HERE  AndHERE 
to see what racism is.

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## Ramil

I think that the problem with people from USA is in the fact that the Americans had lived for many years in the society which indulged itself with racial segregation. Things may have changed by now (although from these posts and many others I see that the institute of political correctness didn't help people much to get rid of racial prejudices - maybe quite the opposite - like a bad medicine that cures symptoms only and not that what really caused a disease). The real causes of racism is povetry (for a nation that claims to be the richest in the world that's a real shame), illiteracy and ignorance. Illiterate and ignorant people tend to blame people who differ from them in any way. Maybe USA was unlucky to have people of different nationalities and races got mixed and jumbled together. There're too many different kinds of people live in America to help now, what makes matters worse - every single group is absolutely confident that they are the best of all and the others are unworthy. At least when political correctness had not been yet introduced people could see who was who and adjust their thinking. Now people are politically correct but anyone can take his .357 and decorate a nearby wall with bits of your brains. 
White and rich people dislike poor black people and the other way around. I think the only way to get out of this situation is grand interbreeding program - to mix races and nationalities to the point nobody could tell exactly which nationality or race he is. After this there won't be a place for racism or nationalism. Everybody would be of a common race.  ::

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## Rtyom

I don't think it will solve the problem. It's people nature to dislike something or someone.

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## Ramil

> I don't think it will solve the problem. It's people nature to dislike something or someone.

 Yes, it's called xenophobia. But we're talking about racism here. When there is only one race racism would be impossible.

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## Yazeed

> What racist reaction? There is no racism here. Just an exchange of ideas and thoughts. Perhaps you need to visit  .org/shtml]HERE  AndHERE 
> to see what racism is.

 The first link didn't work for me, but the second one is just terrible (and retarded, too)

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## DDT

*Ramil Wrote:*  

> The real causes of racism is povetry

 Not really. Racism is simply the natural desire for people to be attracted to their own kind. Everybody has it.

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## Vincent Tailors

*Ramil*, consider racism the natural development of the kin pride. Like you love your close relatives and naturally will favor them in every way. So do strangers have the right to blame you for kinship and "kinnism"? Hardly. The same here. Noone not of your race has the right to blame you for being favorable to your kinsfolk and indifferent to other nations/races/whatever. And truly mad is he, who disputes this natural instinct of every man. 
Race and nation are just a bigger scale of family.

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## Ramil

Well, I'm not shouting about any privileges my race has over the others. I agree that under some circumstances I would give privileges to those I like but that doesn't mean that others are bad or of 'lower kind'. And racism (or nationalism) is exactly this kind of thing. It declares that any man with white skin is better than any man with black skin. I don't really think so. I know many white people whom I'd treated with worse than with a pig. And I suppose there are many people of different races whom I'd treated better. I don't divide people, I look at each one I meet and decide whether he is worthy or not. And the color of his skin is the last thing I'd look at.

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## iamjames

> While I'm not white (read earlier post), I still believe that racism goes both ways, and iamjames' story can attest to that 
> However, having said that, it seems that many people took the initial thread for an anti-white rambling (before iamjames' participation).  And then it just turned into 'omg whites are discriminated against but ppl can be racist to whites but not the other way around" hissy fit, and then turns into a thread of victimizing a race (which, I would surmise, many of you see as a reason to critique the other race), and sweeping everyone under the banner of white vs. non-white. 
> While I don't like the initial post to begin with, does it warrant all this racist reaction?  
> Yes, racism goes both ways, but why do some of you (those who were first to answer) have to sink to their level?  
> And iamjames, I am glad to see that you survived this and I commend you for your bravery.  Низкий тебе поклон.

 THANKS! I was very much so frightend, but i am fearing that there are some racists/nationalists/sexits/and other ists here on this page, so I give up. 
I belong to this organization called Harmony NCCJ and I went to a workshop, and it tought me many many things, like I have to accept other peoples opinions, because I will try to belive that they will mine. I alos think that many people have reasons why they think the way they do, I see rasicm alot going to a school that was all african-american and me being one of the only whites, and then going to a school that was prodomitaly white, and trying to fit in with the African-Americans didnt work. Even though that was what I was used to. I think racism is everywhere, no matter what anyone thinks. Although, I can only speak from my own testaments, and my own acounters. Thanks for reading my story!

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## iamjames

Ok, one more thing before I give up, I think someone mentioned imagration. Me being from the USA I see alot of it. I dont agree with Bush not letting some families in the the USA from Mexico, when all they want is a better life? I can see why the whole "ITS STEALING THE AMERICAN JOBS" is a problem, but arent we a nation that WANTS TO HELP PEOPLE SO THERE ISNT POVERTY IN THE WORLD?! Hmm... I do think we are, so how come its an issue if someone who is from another country takes jobs? They want a healty life too! UGH... I dont know, maybe I am just "TOO YOUNG" to understand compleatly.

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## Ramil

About that 'stealing the jobs' thing - I see a lot of migrants here too, and I hear those talks about jobs here too, but a question I ask - why doesn't local population work in all those niches migrants go working into. The answer is simple - they don't want to go there. The job is lousy and the pay is even worse. Only a migrant will go there. Any local man or woman wants to get a better job, social compensations and a corporate free cell number. There isn't enough good jobs for all, so someone just have to take our sh|t from under us sometimes. I doubt I would ever see my neighbor hauling garbage. Go work if you want to, but don't ever say that someone has stealt your job if you turn your nose off it.

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## Vincent Tailors

> And racism (or nationalism) is exactly this kind of thing.

 Racism and nationalism are not equal. And could you answer one straight question, if you don't mind? 
What does keeping your house free of those you don't want to be in have to do with race superiority?

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## Leof

> *Ramil*, consider racism the natural development of the kin pride. Like you love your close relatives and naturally will favor them in every way. So do strangers have the right to blame you for kinship and "kinnism"? Hardly. The same here. Noone not of your race has the right to blame you for being favorable to your kinsfolk and indifferent to other nations/races/whatever. And truly mad is he, who disputes this natural instinct of every man. 
> Race and nation are just a bigger scale of family.

 Have you ever met a *racist* who is _indifferent_ to the people of the other race?  http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0% ... 0%B7%D0%BC 
If you think carefully you will find, that the human's pride doesn't relate with any hatred to the others.  
Naturally mad is everyone who calls the racism natural. 
Don't you think the only existing race is a human race? One of the genetic researches in the UK showed that a large group of Brits who, as they thought, were the complete Brits had the genes of Africans.
More than just that. There were a time when due to the global disasters the quantity of the humans were about one thousand. All the people you see have one great great grandmother. And she was't "white" as it was many times told on this board. 
Anyone who is indifferent to the people of other race in NOT a racist.

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## Vincent Tailors

*Leof*, I can't see how your post is related to mine. You seem to have read me upside down and not caught my idea...

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## Vincent Tailors

From your link  

> «Раси́зм — доктрина, провозглашающая превосходство одной человеческой расы над другой.»

 Where in the world did I proclaim race superiority?

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## Leof

Have I misunderstood you then?
You said :   

> Noone not of your race has the right to blame you for being favorable to your kinsfolk and indifferent to other nations/races/whatever

 Nobody blames people who are indiffernt to the other races. Nobody calls them racists. It is the racists who see the differences.

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## Vincent Tailors

But you say that if I claim that every human being must be treated equally and not with any benefits based on his or her nationality -- I'm a racist, since those who come to my country have some weird priviliges I'm constantly trying to deprive them of. 
Or have I misunderstood you too?

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## Leof

What I told about were these your words.   

> Ramil, consider racism the natural development of the kin pride. Like you love your close relatives and naturally will favor them in every way. So do strangers have the right to blame you for kinship and "kinnism"? Hardly. The same here. Noone not of your race has the right to blame you for being favorable to your kinsfolk and indifferent to other nations/races/whatever. And truly mad is he, who disputes this natural instinct of every man.  
> Race and nation are just a bigger scale of family.

 I do not see anywhere in that your post the phrase "if I claim that every human being must be treated equally and not with any benefits based on his or her nationality -- I'm a racist, since those who come to my country have some weird priviliges I'm constantly trying to deprive them of." 
Tell me what was the first:
the discrimination based on the color of skin or
the privileges for the people with not "white" color of skin?
Or the the privileges to those who comes to your country? 
When the Africans who were puted in slavery by the European "whites" came on the European and American soil - what kind of privileges did they have? Why do you think such privileges exist today?
Were those Africans the imigrants? The tourists? The conquerors? The explorers? Did they come as the unwanted guests? They were brought as a livestock. And they had no rights or privileges until the middle of the 20'th century in the USA, when you couldn't take a place in the bus if you had a black skin. 
In the WWII German nacists took the part in the jews' privileges. You know what happened.  
What kind of privilege do have those who come to your country?
Is it a privilege to be not killed in the synagogue?
Or on the market place?

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## Leof

Have you ever seen the sign: 
"Смерть славянам"? "Смерть русским"? "Бей русских"? 
Have you ever seen or heard that?  
Perhaps people who write "Смерть жидам" on the board connected with the mine did not mean what they wrote?

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## Vincent Tailors

I admit I could have been ambigous in my words. 
My main and ultimate goal is to make everyone equal when it comes to nationality. Everyone must be treated according to the Law, and not to which nationality this or that one is of. 
The current situation is that of blacks, arabs, other non-white races and nations trying to achieve more than anyone else making dirty claims like "we're blacks and are mistreated". 
That is racism. *They* put themselves above other nations, they say they deserve more, they cause unrest, they bring chaos. Tensions are rising not because of "bad whites trying to restore apartheid or any other form of racial segregation", but of the minorities trying to "rise and shine" just because they want easy life and money. 
That fills the hearts of people with hatred and unleashes drooling hordes of liberals, whining about "broken rights and crushed values". 
P.S. Not every black or arab or any other are that bad. But many of them and only about them we are talking here.

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## Leof

Да. Все люди, независимо от их цвета кожи, языка и вероисповедания, должны подчиняться законам, действующим на территории данного государства.  
Но, автор этой ветки не кажется тем, кто пытается что-либо выиграть от своего заявления. Я верю, он не причастен к этническим бандам, о которых здесь уже говорили. 
Где истоки того, что "цветные" заявляют о своих правах? Не в том ли, что "белые" на протяжении трёх столетий попирали эти права? 
Сегодня, если "цветной" преступник ссылается на расовую дискриминацию - вы скажете: "До чего дошло! И они ещё говорят о своих правах! Вот-де он, расизм!" 
Но, подумайте, если об этом скажет человек, которого избила на улице группа бритых выродков - да, русских, я подчёркиваю, как они сами себя нвзывают, выродков - избила его, а не какого-то русского, который возвращался один с работы или учёбы домой.
Много вы знаете случаев, когда бритоголовые избивали русских?   
Вы тут говорите о бандах, торговцах наркотиками, преступниках.
А в российских тюрьмах-то сидят в основном русские. Их гораздо больше, чем жителей Кавказа, африканцев, таджиков или китайцев.   
То, о чём здесь говорят, это что расизма, как явления в России не существует. Что если убивают русского, то это то же самое, что если убивают африканца, выходца из Латинской Америки или Азии. Что это просто хулиганы, что нет в России преступлений на национальной или расовой почве. 
А где-либо в России или в мире было такое: 
Толпа африканцев/перуанцев/корейцев/таджиков - кого угодно - избивает русского, громит русские торговые лотки с воплями: "смерть русским, бей русских, белая мразь, сдохните славяне, русское д"рьмо!"? Кто-нибудь может себе представить, что бы в православный храм во время службы ворвался бы еврей с ножом и ударил бы несколько прихожан и священника, прокричав: "смерть русским"? 
Здесь уже сказали, что в России расизма не существует.
Та же песня, что и утверждение российских военных, что в российской армии не существует дедовщины. Находятся такие, кто утверждает, что всё это выдумал комитет солдатских матерей и те, кто решил закосить от армии. 
Теперь в случае с расизмом утверждают, что ни о каких националистических группах в россии властям ничего не известно. Это просто мальчишки играют в расистов и фашистов. Они просто так стоят с флагами в центре Москвы. Просто так носят свастики и похожие значки, просто так кричат о своей русскости и призывают к искоренению нерусскости. Хулиганы. Шпана, что с них взять. 
Да вы тут х"рню какую-то пишете!

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## Ramil

> What does keeping your house free of those you don't want to be in have to do with race superiority?

 I just don't understand the question... Could you rephrase or clarify?

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## iamjames

> Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors  What does keeping your house free of those you don't want to be in have to do with race superiority?   I just don't understand the question... Could you rephrase or clarify?

 Nor do I...

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## Vincent Tailors

> Да. Все люди, независимо от их цвета кожи, языка и вероисповедания, должны подчиняться законам, действующим на территории данного государства.

 ППКС   

> Но, автор этой ветки не кажется тем, кто пытается что-либо выиграть от своего заявления. Я верю, он не причастен к этническим бандам, о которых здесь уже говорили.

 Не спорю. Но это уже другая тема. Я же говорил лично про себя. То, что я наехал на автора только потому, что не может он неправильно говорит в плане что русские убивают тех кто не их кожи. Тут скорее начинает играть роль общий облик, сложившийся в глазах нациеобразующего народа. Нельзя отрицать, что зачастую расовые меньшинства ведут себя нагло и вызывающе по отношению к коренному населению. Это есть расизм. И то, что русские к ним относятся враждебно -- не есть расизм, иначе можно сказать, что в любом вооруженном конфликте обе воюющие стороны -- расисты, ибо они убивают членов другой нации, а не принимают их с распростертыми объятиями. Думай об сегодняшней ситуации как о некотором отдельном взятом примере вооруженного конфликта. Даже если власть не признает это вооруженным конфликтом, на уровне столкновения двух миров и культур -- это вооруженное столкновение. И пытаться заставить замолчать одну сторону (причем хозяев!) и позволить делать национальным меньшинствам непозволительные дела только ради того, чтобы не унизить их чувства или не дать почувствовать себя униженными -- абсолютно неправильно!   

> Где истоки того, что "цветные" заявляют о своих правах?

 Они не заявляют о своих правах, они заявляют о том, что у них больше прав, чем у остальных. Вдумайся в разницу.   

> Сегодня, если "цветной" преступник ссылается на расовую дискриминацию - вы скажете: "До чего дошло! И они ещё говорят о своих правах! Вот-де он, расизм!"

 А по твоему нормально, что выродок прикрывается цветом своей кожи, уходя от наказания?   

> А в российских тюрьмах-то сидят в основном русские. Их гораздо больше, чем жителей Кавказа, африканцев, таджиков или китайцев.

 А сколько в пропорциональном отношении населения русского и нацменьшинств? Кроме того, думаю, к китайцам вряд ли кто имеет претензии.   

> Что это просто хулиганы, что нет в России преступлений на национальной или расовой почве.

 Есть, и с той И с другой стороны. Причем с другой стороны гораздо больше.   

> Толпа африканцев/перуанцев/корейцев/таджиков - кого угодно - избивает русского, громит русские торговые лотки с воплями: "смерть русским, бей русских, белая мразь, сдохните славяне, русское д"рьмо!"?

 Ты, наверное, не следишь за событиями. Названия "Кондопога", "Сальск", "Самара", "Ставрополь" тебе ни о чем не говорят? А ведь это только вершина айсберга.   

> I just don't understand the question... Could you rephrase or clarify?

 I'm saying that that is a _sound desire_ to clean your house of unwanted guests. You can't blame the host for doing that. And if the govt is too weak...

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## Ramil

> I'm saying that that is a _sound desire_ to clean your house of unwanted guests. You can't blame the host for doing that. And if the govt is too weak...

 I don't really think that way. Our country doesn't belong exceptionally to you or me, or whites, or ethnic Russians only. There're over 150 nationalities live in Russia and everybody is guaranteed with the freedom of living and working wherever they want. It just too bad if you don't like it.

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## Vincent Tailors

I don't have anything against reasonable non-russians. I consider russians those, who consider themselves citizens of Russia, accept its traditions, language, holidays, society, lifestyle.

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## Rtyom

> I don't have anything against reasonable non-russians. I consider russians those, who consider themselves citizens of Russia, accept its traditions, language, holidays, society, lifestyle.

 You want too much. Just don't get me wrong, your opinion is all right.

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## Vincent Tailors

> You want too much.

 То есть?

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## Rtyom

> You want too much.
> 			
> 		  То есть?

 Хотел сказать, что не очень-то естественно вот так взять всё сразу и перенять. Попробуй стать частью другого общества и увидишь, насколько быстро тебе захочется, да ещё насколько хорошо получится, принять чужие ценности.

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## VendingMachine

> Много вы знаете случаев, когда бритоголовые избивали русских?

 Да, знаю. Хипариков там всяких и проч. неформальную шушеру.

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## Vincent Tailors

> Хотел сказать, что не очень-то естественно вот так взять всё сразу и перенять. Попробуй стать частью другого общества и увидишь, насколько быстро тебе захочется, да ещё насколько хорошо получится, принять чужие ценности.

 Я знаю одно, я не гарантирую, что смогу стать частью другой культуры и общества, но могу гарантировать, что я не стану наглеть и говорить, что вокруг мне все обязаны, что меня не хотят учить на родном языке (это в другой-то стране!), что мне не дают делать что я хочу, и это значит, что меня притесняют по расовому признаку, что мне не дают больше денег чем остальным просто так, потому что я  вот такой особенный, а еще то, что я увидел в кафе как продавали свинину и теперь я должен подать в суд на это кафе, его владельца, посетителей и государство впридачу, потому что вид свиной косточки меня оскорбил.

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## Rtyom

В общем-то, да.

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## basurero

Nationalism is pointless when you think about it. What makes your own race so great? When you walk down the street do you think "wow, look at all these Russians/whatever, man I love them all so much"? It's not as though you know them, you probably don't want to know them either. Most of them are likely to be retards...  
Just because I live on the same piece of earth as some millions of other people doesn't mean I share some magical connection with every one of them. Have you heard of 'imagined communities' before?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_communities

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## Vincent Tailors

> Have you heard of 'imagined communities' before?

 People need them, just like many people desperately need friends to be happy.

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## basurero

> Have you heard of 'imagined communities' before?
> 			
> 		  People need them, just like many people desperately need friends to be happy.

 What do you mean? 
Anyway, friends aren't restricted to people of the same race.

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## Vincent Tailors

Do you want to say that the borders must be removed and all countries and races in the world must be merged into one giant foundation?

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## Yazeed

> Хотел сказать, что не очень-то естественно вот так взять всё сразу и перенять. Попробуй стать частью другого общества и увидишь, насколько быстро тебе захочется, да ещё насколько хорошо получится, принять чужие ценности.
> 			
> 		  Я знаю одно, я не гарантирую, что смогу стать частью другой культуры и общества, но могу гарантировать, что я не стану наглеть и говорить, что вокруг мне все обязаны, что меня не хотят учить на родном языке (это в другой-то стране!), что мне не дают делать что я хочу, и это значит, что меня притесняют по расовому признаку, что мне не дают больше денег чем остальным просто так, потому что я  вот такой особенный, а еще то, что я увидел в кафе как продавали свинину и теперь я должен подать в суд на это кафе, его владельца, посетителей и государство впридачу, потому что вид свиной косточки меня оскорбил.

 Я согласен. В чужой монастыр со своим уставом не ходить. И еще, если кому-то так сильно не нравится страна, где (в которой?) он живет, то он свободен возвращаться назад туда, откуда пришел. Так будет лучше и жителям, и иммигрантам, стремящимся ассимилироваться.

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## Rtyom

> Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors     
> 			
> 				Хотел сказать, что не очень-то естественно вот так взять всё сразу и перенять. Попробуй стать частью другого общества и увидишь, насколько быстро тебе захочется, да ещё насколько хорошо получится, принять чужие ценности.
> 			
> 		  Я знаю одно, я не гарантирую, что смогу стать частью другой культуры и общества, но могу гарантировать, что я не стану наглеть и говорить, что вокруг мне все обязаны, что меня не хотят учить на родном языке (это в другой-то стране!), что мне не дают делать что я хочу, и это значит, что меня притесняют по расовому признаку, что мне не дают больше денег чем остальным просто так, потому что я  вот такой особенный, а еще то, что я увидел в кафе как продавали свинину и теперь я должен подать в суд на это кафе, его владельца, посетителей и государство впридачу, потому что вид свиной косточки меня оскорбил.   Я согласен. В чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят. И еще, если кому-то так сильно не нравится страна, где (в которой?)It's all right to use either он живет, то он волен возвращаться назад туда, откуда пришел. Так будет лучше и жителям, и иммигрантам, стремящимся ассимилироваться.

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## Vincent Tailors

> И еще, если кому-то так сильно не нравится страна, где (в которой?) он живет, то он свободен возвращаться назад туда, откуда пришел. Так будет лучше и жителям, и иммигрантам, стремящимся ассимилироваться.

 Никогда ещё Штирлиц не был так близок к истине. 
Иммигрантов никто туда не звал, они САМИ просились, чтобы им позволили там жить, там остаться.

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## DDT

You can't let people live in  your house who are incompatible with your families values. Everyone agrees on this! This is not racism. 
Why can't you see that it is the same for everything..... including countries? 
Ask the Maoris or the American Indians what their ancestors thought of the arrival of "the White Man." 
If you want to keep your country you must be careful of who you let in.  
Just look at what has been happening in Australia now. Our culture has always been one that has had low crime and race issues. Since Australians live mostly along the coasts, they also love to wear small swimming suits and spend time on the beach. 
Recently we have allowed the arrival of thousands of Muslims into Australia who have *not* adapted to Australian lifestyle. The Australian Federal Police have been finding Terrorist Cells amongst their  populations. We have never had that before! 
Lately, these Muslims have been coming to the beach but instead of swimming like the rest of the Australians they wait at the entrances  for girls to walk onto the beach in their bikinis so they can spit on them and call them sluts and whores for wearing a bikini. They have no respect for the locals. They want to change our ways. 
As a result we have had riots along the beaches between the people who hold real Australian values who are trying to defend their girls their culture,  and Muslims who are trying to spit on them and make them put more clothes on. In one year there were over 50 incidents of Australian girls being gang raped by Muslim Lebanese gangs in one state alone. Only 5 were reported in the media.
I have seen the difference in Australia. I have watched it change to the point that I now know that the Australia that I grew up in, no longer exists. It  exists now, only in my memory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1qMD2FN9Hk documentary on the media
If you Russians here at MR want to keep the Russia you love then you had better pay attention.....or you will soon have the problems that the West is facing now! Your Russia will disappear and be replaced with Mac-Russia.  
Diversity does not work. It is a sick joke played on you all by people that took too many drugs in the 1960's. What works is the collection of people of similar language, culture and beliefs.

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## Vincent Tailors

The only thing that is able to save Russia from losing herself is some monstrous disaster that will shake the very foundations of the current system (like the WWII did). It's doomed to follow the rest of the world unless something ground-breaking happens, and it will. The outcome will be either complete destruction or purification. Time will tell, anyway.

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## basurero

I guess we now know what it was and is like for the Aboriginies. The ancestors of today's Australians didn't see any need to adapt to the values of the Aboriginies and decided to treat them like rubbish instead. It seems the same thing is happening today, except today it is state-sponsored in the name of PC   ::

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## coledavis

A few random observations. Some support the Russians are racist side, but b no means all. Just observations. To introduce myself: I am a Brit, who has visited Russia several times, in Moscow, St Petersburg and a provincial city to the south, spending some weeks in each at different times this century. 
I chatted with a black African Moscow resident. He reckoned about 30% of Russians were hostile to him. 
We get reports of racially motivated murders and assaults in Moscow, St P and Voronezh. In the last of these, university students e.g. from South America, are particularly the targets. 
Don't just accept the argument that Aussies are just fired up by muslims. They have had a big thing over their aborigines (i.e. native) blacks for years and have behaved appallingly over the decades (the word 'orphans' should ring a bell with many of them). Race is a stain on the Australian reputation. They are worsening it with their attitude to would-be refugees. 
Nigger has been a rude word for a long long time. Maybe you mean the word negro was once acceptable (e.g. in the middle of the last century). 
We get lots of knife and gun crime from young black men in London.  Almost no debate about that. 
I know people out in the Russian countryside who have never met black people, but think it's terrible to hear that England has a lot of black people. But then there are people in the rural county of Norfolk, in England, who think the same. 
An Indian guy I know, a very experienced teacher of English with very good English, used his cv and a telephone call to get himself an interview for a job in a language school in Moscow. The moment his face appeared at the interview (on a video link), the boss terminated the interview. 
An English Asian who finished his degree in Russian in Russia was only too pleased to return to London as he didn't feel safe going out by himself in the evenings. 
Russian people that I know look at people from the caucasus (e.g. azeris, georgians, armenians) with suspicion. Russian people who study English in London become a little more relaxed with them. 
Can I sum up. Not really, these were just random observations. My general thoughts: yes of course other nations are pretty bad about race, but then racial mixing is often a problem. On the other hand, I do find Russians to be the least thoughtful, or maybe the most likely to use the 'well other people are bad too' argument, rather than think about improving things in a positive way. I do like Russian people, but this isn't one of their strong points.

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## coledavis

The autoswear was working. I wasn't swearing, just using the word n*gg*r in context.

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## gRomoZeka

Well, the situation in Russia differs from the situation in many western countries. Due to some reasons (the absence of black slaves back in the days and an iron curtain are among them) there were no major communities of "black" russians, "asian" russians, etc., i.e. the person of another race in 99% of cases was and IS a foreigner with a different culture and/or religion, and almost always a bad knowledge of Russian, which hinders communication. 
So often that's not pure racism, that's just good old xenophobia and a suspicion toward 'intruders'. It's not smth uncommon, Japanese, who live in the pretty much monoracial country are quite the 'racists' too. The situation will change in a decade at best, or maybe never, because the only way to change it fast is to have a large number of black/asian/etc. Russian citizens, i.e. people, who are not percieved as foreigners (not international students or illegal immigrants). And I don't see how it could happen. 
I also may add that 'Afro-Russians' I've met (only two, actually) told me they never had any 'racial' problems, as they are percived by others as 'Russians', not 'blacks'. So, again, it's xenophobia of the community, which for decades had no prolonged contact with the foreigners and thought of them as of space aliens.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> I also may add that 'Afro-Russians' I've met (only two, actually) told me they never had any 'racial' problems, as they are percived by others as 'Russians', not 'blacks'.

 The Afro-Russian you've met was probably Пьер Нарцисс ?   ::   
Seriously, Russians' xenophobia is the most contradictory notion ever. Here you have an Empire that includes hundreds of races and spans from the Baltic to the Pacific, from the Arctic to the Black sea, and Russians complain about too many "foreigners" because they don't share the outward appearance. Well, maybe you shouldn't have been invading all these countries the last 400 years, then?   ::  
Russians should be happy with seeing Georgians, Afghans, Tartars, Chinese, Armenians, Balts, Finns, Japanese, etc. It shows how powerful their nation is/has been!    ::

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## Ezri

This is what the experts say in response to a geneticists recent assettion that a gene for stupidity should be looked for amongst blacks to show they are actually more stupid than whites. 
Watson isnt the only great scientist and Nobel winner who has made a foolish statement concerning race. William Shockley won a prise for his work on transistors, but spent the latter years of his career making racist comments, even writing about the mental inferiority of black Africans.  
But what of the research in this area? Does the condemnation of Watsons words stem from solid science or political correctness? 
One of the key issues is the nature of intelligence, a topic studied together with race by Robert Sternberg, Elena Grigorenko (Yale) and geneticist Kenneth Kidd (Yale). 
Its generally agreed by those who study intelligence that it comprises the set of abilities needed to learn effectively and adapt to ones environment. But the results of the narrow standard IQ tests are unlikely to reflect all the skills neccessary for learning and environmental adaptation. 
Psychologist John Carrol (University of North Carolina) proposed that auditory and visual perception and processing speed may also be inportant. Robert Sternberg emphasises the importance of creative and practical intelligence. The psychologist Howard Gardner (Harvard) includes other types of intelligences, including musical and interpersonal skills. 
The size of the differences and what groups do best in the tests depend on what is being tested. 
A further hugely complicating factor is what do we mean by 'race'. Populations in different parts of the world have clearly adapted to their environment in different ways. A trait that is beneficial in one environment may work against people in another.  
Stratification - classifying people into catergorys of higher and lower status in a society - occurs on the basis of weight, for example, just as it does on the basis of intelligence test scores. 
But there is nothing special about skin colour that serves as a basis for differentiating humans into so-called races. Skin color correlates only weakly with genetic differentiations. 
Sarak Tishkoff (Geneticist at the University of Maryland) and Kenneth Kidd have found that the genetic differences among black Africans are often greater than those between blacks and whites. 
The significance of those labels stems only from the fact that society has found it conveniant to label races on the basis of skin colour.  
Curiously we do not apply the concept of 'race' to colours of dogs or cats, or moths for that matter. For some of these colour can be important. Being a black moth conferes camoflage advantages in polluted environments and disadvantages in clean environments - vice versa for white moths. 
Our ancestors in Africa were almost certanly dark skinned because it proved better protection against the particular challenges of the environment, such as ultraviolet light.  
We could of course refer to moths as being of different 'races'. We do not, presumably because we are less interested in creating social classes for moths than for people.  
The problems with our understanding of intelligence and race show that the criticism being levelled at Watson is based on science rather than political correctness.  
Intelligence is clearly a far more complicated issue than standard testing allows. And race is a socially constructed concept, not a biological one. It derives from people's desire to classify.  
Whether people with a genetic predisposition towards, say, fatness will be classified as a seperate race remains to be seen.  
Potted version of an article written by Robert J. Sternberg for New Scientist Oct 2007. He is dean of the school of Arts and Sciences and professor of psychology at Tufts University in Medford Massachusetts.  
This kind of robust science may tell some here that there are just a lot of PC people in the world of science.  But perhaps others may get the idea why some of us reject the idea of science ever supporting racism.

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## gRomoZeka

> The Afro-Russian you've met was probably Пьер Нарцисс ?

 Nope.   ::   Anyway he's not Russian.  ::    

> Seriously, Russians' xenophobia is the most contradictory notion ever. Here you have an Empire that includes hundreds of races and spans from the Baltic to the Pacific, from the Arctic to the Black sea, and Russians complain about too many "foreigners" because they don't share the outward appearance.

 But _seriously_, these 'hundreds of races' are not foreigners!   ::  They were born and lived all their life in Russia/Russian Empire/USSR, unlike some black or asian person who came from God knows where for couple of years. You can't be actually xenophobic to your own compatriots, can you? And their appearance and race doesn't actually matter. That's why I said that the 'racist' Russians are more xenophobes (to REAL foreigners  :: ) than racists. 
Anyway, it's an elusive topic, and what I've said is a huge generalisation. Don't be too serious about it.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Curiously we do not apply the concept of 'race' to colours of dogs or cats, or moths for that matter. For some of these colour can be important.

 But we do apply these concepts. A springer spaniel has brown spots, a cocker spanial has black spots... that is the defintion of the different races!

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## kalinka_vinnie

> But _seriously_, these 'hundreds of races' are not foreigners!   They were born and lived all their life in Russia/Russian Empire/USSR, unlike some black or asian person who came from God knows where for couple of years. You can't be actually xenophobic to your own compatriots, can you? And their appearance and race doesn't actually matter. That's why I said that the 'racist' Russians are more xenophobes (to REAL foreigners ) than racists.

 You can be xenophobic to your own compatriots, sure you can. I am sure you are familiar with the word POGROM and from where it came from   ::  I am of course not saying that all Russians are suspicious of non-Russians, but those who are seem to me to be very hypocritical.   ::   
But no, someone born and lived all their life in the USSR shouldn't be treated any differently than a Russian native! Same goes for black in America and Samis in Norway!   

> Anyway, it's an elusive topic, and what I've said is a huge generalisation. Don't be too serious about it.

 Of course you are right, but it is sooo much fun this way!   ::

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## coledavis

On the subject of race and intelligence: in my view this is a matter of averages. Taking the commonsense approach. It's easy to find a really unintelligent white man in the street and then run into a bright black man. The point made by those scientists who appear to have taken an interest is that - putting statistics very crudely - there tend to be more cleverish white people (or less thick ones) than is the case for black people. Now I haven't seen the figures so can't be sure, but in any case this doesn't fully support Professor Genome's assertion that society is currently poorly structured because of an assumption of inequality. As I say, you can walk into the street and your black man can be the most intelligent man there; statistically unlikely, but also nevertheless quite possible.  (I speak as a man who once practised as a psychologist and still works regularly with statistics.)

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## Ezri

> But we do apply these concepts. A springer spaniel has brown spots, a cocker spanial has black spots... that is the defintion of the different races!

 Please tell me your joking!   ::   ::

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## coledavis

er, not helpful. if you tell me which bit you think is the joke, then I can explain a  bit more.

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## Ezri

> On the subject of race and intelligence: in my view this is a matter of averages. Taking the commonsense approach. It's easy to find a really unintelligent white man in the street and then run into a bright black man. The point made by those scientists who appear to have taken an interest is that - putting statistics very crudely - there tend to be more cleverish white people (or less thick ones) than is the case for black people. Now I haven't seen the figures so can't be sure, but in any case this doesn't fully support Professor Genome's assertion that society is currently poorly structured because of an assumption of inequality. As I say, you can walk into the street and your black man can be the most intelligent man there; statistically unlikely, but also nevertheless quite possible.  (I speak as a man who once practised as a psychologist and still works regularly with statistics.)

 Then as a psychologist you will be aware that the IQ test does not give the whole picture of an individuals intelligence. An often overlooked point when people talk about 'clever and dumb'.
As for walking into the street, I hear you and though I'm not very good at stats (numbers in general) it would depend on which street your referring to wouldnt it?

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## Ezri

> er, not helpful. if you tell me which bit you think is the joke, then I can explain a  bit more.

 I was commenting on Kalinkas post. You should be able to see her quote above mine.

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## coledavis

Thank you Ezri. 
The point about the word 'pogrom' isn't one you should dismiss out of hand. A  little bit of history.  For a long period of time, Russia had few or no jews; they just wouldn't allow jewish immigrants. Then in the late 18th century, Russia - along with Prussia (the eastern german power) and to a lesser extent the Austro-Hungarian empire - swallowed up Poland in three successive partitions. This meant that Russia suddenly acquired a lot of jews, many of whom were forced to emigrate east into Russia proper. The conditions of the jew were very harsh, allowing them only to work in restricted ways, including money-lending and acting as landowner's middlemen. Because of these enforced roles, they became hated and, with governmental collusion at minimum and possible encouragement (think of the czarist secret service's forgery of the so-called Protocols of Zion), the jews were persecuted terribly. The pogroms were usually massacres.  Why do you think so many people emigrated to UK and USA in the late 19th century? 
Ok, let's move to my point. You said:
"
Then as a psychologist you will be aware that the IQ test does not give the whole picture of an individuals intelligence. An often overlooked point when people talk about 'clever and dumb'.
As for walking into the street, I hear you and though I'm not very good at stats (numbers in general) it would depend on which street your referring to wouldnt it?
" 
First paragraph: This does of course depend upon what you believe intelligence to be. There's the idea of 'g', i.e. that there is a general intelligence. There is the idea of three core features: linguistic (own language, note, not the ability to learn new ones), numerical and spatial. And, as is suggested by your comments, the idea of multiple intelligence (e.g. sporting, musical, etc as well as the three I've mentioned). As far as real evidence is concerned, there is support for 'g' and also the 3-factor theory, but very little for 'multiple intelligence'. Multiple Intelligence is fashionable in schools these days (you can tell dull kids, well, you've got sporting intelligence or music intelligence - it's good, in that they'll feel better about themselves, but it ain't good science). 
Second paragraph: we're talking empirical here - i.e. what you're likely to see - not experimental. Of course you'll see different on Wall Street than on the Bronx (ok, pick your city and pick different names). This is not the point. The point is that IN EVERY RACE and most communities, there is a SPREAD of intellectual abilities. So, returning to my point, the differences between races, should they exist, are only averages covering a whole lot of individual people. Once again, at the risk of being boring, it does not make sense to say 'this race is better than that race' as you will always find very dull members of the so-called superior race and very bright members of the so-called inferior race. So, the whole argument of 'racial intelligence' for the sake of a better name, is of very limited use to anybody. Leaving aside the black people that the professor refers to. What about the evidence that Chinese people perform better than white people. Does that mean that all white people are stupid and none of them geniuses? Of course not. It's a matter of averages, isn't it? So again, the argument about comparative racial intelligences isn't a very productive one. 
Enough typing for one night.  All the best.

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## Ezri

> Thank you Ezri. 
> The point about the word 'pogrom' isn't one you should dismiss out of hand.   *I wasnt, in fact I hadnt commented on this subject at all. I'm very interested in history, particularly WWII which obviously lead me to other historical facts, including the treatment of the Jews in many countries. But thanks for your time typing that out, it's appreciated.*  
> First paragraph: This does of course depend upon what you believe intelligence to be. There's the idea of 'g', i.e. that there is a general intelligence. There is the idea of three core features: linguistic (own language, note, not the ability to learn new ones), numerical and spatial. And, as is suggested by your comments, the idea of multiple intelligence (e.g. sporting, musical, etc as well as the three I've mentioned). As far as real evidence is concerned, there is support for 'g' and also the 3-factor theory, but very little for 'multiple intelligence'. Multiple Intelligence is fashionable in schools these days (you can tell dull kids, well, you've got sporting intelligence or music intelligence - it's good, in that they'll feel better about themselves, but it ain't good science).  *I'm suprised you say there is little support for 'multiple intelligence' considering the huge amount of data out there! Creativity was not considered to be an important intelligence (for example) many years ago, until it was pointed out how society is built on creativity. But we have moved on since then and many are fully aware how narrow the 'official' IQ test is as well as how important and actually very good science to concentrate on wider aspects of intelligence. 
> Perhaps we are from different schools of thought (which is always interesting) and may have to agree to differ.* 
> Second paragraph: we're talking empirical here - i.e. what you're likely to see - not experimental. Of course you'll see different on Wall Street than on the Bronx (ok, pick your city and pick different names). This is not the point. The point is that IN EVERY RACE and most communities, there is a SPREAD of intellectual abilities. So, returning to my point, the differences between races, should they exist, are only averages covering a whole lot of individual people. Once again, at the risk of being boring, it does not make sense to say 'this race is better than that race' as you will always find very dull members of the so-called superior race and very bright members of the so-called inferior race. So, the whole argument of 'racial intelligence' for the sake of a better name, is of very limited use to anybody. Leaving aside the black people that the professor refers to. What about the evidence that Chinese people perform better than white people. Does that mean that all white people are stupid and none of them geniuses? Of course not. It's a matter of averages, isn't it? So again, the argument about comparative racial intelligences isn't a very productive one.  *100% agreed! If a person wants to advertise to the world that he is of low intelligence then he only needs to suggest one race is superior to another, that, in my book, is barrel scrapingly dumb!*    
> Enough typing for one night.  All the best.

 I put all my answers in bold above, hope thats ok. 
Cheers.

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## Rtyom

> Originally Posted by coledavis  er, not helpful. if you tell me which bit you think is the joke, then I can explain a  bit more.   I was commenting on Kalinkas post. You should be able to see *her* quote above mine.

 Kalinka is da man.  ::

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## coledavis

"I'm suprised you say there is little support for 'multiple intelligence' considering the huge amount of data out there! Creativity was not considered to be an important intelligence (for example) many years ago, until it was pointed out how society is built on creativity. But we have moved on since then and many are fully aware how narrow the 'official' IQ test is as well as how important and actually very good science to concentrate on wider aspects of intelligence.
Perhaps we are from different schools of thought (which is always interesting) and may have to agree to differ. " 
No, this is not to do with schools of thought, unless you're of the school of thought that opposes experimental research. Perhaps I should have been clearer and said that there is not a lot of experimental support for 'multiple intelligence'.  There is plenty of support amongst the educational community but that is not the same as saying that empirical research underlies the  support. What is the evidence? Sorry, but cries of 'old hat' and vague claims that society is built of creativity/capitalism/cream cheese are not scientifically falsifiable (i.e. you can't demonstrate if they're right or wrong). Sorry, I think that the main support for MI is fad support; education does go through several fads over a few decades.

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## Ezri

> I was commenting on Kalinkas post. You should be able to see *her* quote above mine.

 Kalinka is da man.  :: [/quote] 
Oh! How strange of me to assume Kalinka was a female name (though I have recently learned it's also a nice berry too I believe!).
Kalinka, my apologies. Most people assume I'm male so I should not have done the same in reverse! 
Thank you Rtyom for correcting me.   ::

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## Ezri

> No, this is not to do with schools of thought, unless you're of the school of thought that opposes experimental research. Perhaps I should have been clearer and said that there is not a lot of experimental support for 'multiple intelligence'.  There is plenty of support amongst the educational community but that is not the same as saying that empirical research underlies the  support. What is the evidence? Sorry, but cries of 'old hat' and vague claims that society is built of creativity/capitalism/cream cheese are not scientifically falsifiable (i.e. you can't demonstrate if they're right or wrong). Sorry, I think that the main support for MI is fad support; education does go through several fads over a few decades.

 All I can say is the vast amount of data out there to support my point of view has been around for a long time and has been well demonstrated.

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## coledavis

Re Kalinka: the daughter of a Polish neighbour of mine is called Kalinka. 
"All I can say is the vast amount of data out there to support my point of view has been around for a long time and has been well demonstrated.
_________________
More madness than method but it works for me.  " 
Vast amount, yes.  Data, I'm not sure. Vast amount of conjecture, yes. Well demonstrated, no. The research says no, the null hypothesis is supported (results are probably a matter of random variation).   
As for the idea being around a long time, so have most of the world's religions and a range of superstitions. The length of time, short or long, isn't relevant. 
More madness than method, pretty much sums it up.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by Rtyom  
> Kalinka is da man.    Oh! How strange of me to assume Kalinka was a female name (though I have recently learned it's also a nice berry too I believe!).
> Kalinka, my apologies. Most people assume I'm male so I should not have done the same in reverse! 
> Thank you Rtyom for correcting me.

 Oh no problem, I didn't even notice it until you brought it up. I thought Rtyom was giving me some sort of complement!   ::   
I used to be just Vinnie, but people also thought that was a female name. So I try to make my gender clear by adding belching sounds at the end of every post...   ::

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## Ezri

> Oh no problem, I didn't even notice it until you brought it up. I thought Rtyom was giving me some sort of complement!    
> I used to be just Vinnie, but people also thought that was a female name. So I try to make my gender clear by adding belching sounds at the end of every post...

 Perhaps your belching is too feminine?   ::

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## Rtyom

> I thought Rtyom was giving me some sort of complement!

 It was also.  ::

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## vegas2times

> I approve of Russians deciding for themselves who they let into their country.

 What about the countries where Russians were not welcome but where imported during the russification times? Has anyone asked most of the ex-soviet countries if they'd like to have some HUGE Russian invasion? Oh yea, they should have killed immigrants in the small streets one by one, right?  
God, we're talking about human beings here! NO ONE deserves death. You don't KILL anyone to say that you don't like his/her presence or do you? It's insane!

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## Ramil

> I approve of Russians deciding for themselves who they let into their country.
> 			
> 		  What about the countries where Russians were not welcome but where imported during the russification times?

 They all reverted in 1991. Any older 'russification' times are too far in the past to make any difference.    

> Has anyone asked most of the ex-soviet countries if they'd like to have some HUGE Russian invasion?

 The only countries USSR had actually annexed were the Baltic countries - Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia. As for the rest - there weren't any strong governments there to begin with. And you forget that USSR has been formed within the territory of the Russian Empire. It actually lost Poland, Finland, West and South Ukraine, Belorussia, Caucasus, and the whole Middle East. Siberia was Russian only nominally.
The 'russification' of these regions took place 500-600 years ago.   

> Oh yea, they should have killed immigrants in the small streets one by one, right?

 And so they did. Many Russians were killed in ex-Soviet countries after the collapse of USSR in ethnic purges. The fact that many forget.   

> God, we're talking about human beings here! NO ONE deserves death. You don't KILL anyone to say that you don't like his/her presence or do you? It's insane!

 It's insane, yes, but sometimes it does happen. 'Human beings' aren't very bright sometimes. And another thing - the one who tries to kill me does deserve death. It's a personal thing.

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## vegas2times

But the history doesn't begin with the Russian Empire, does it now? 
Nationalist extremists are causing this aggression with their propaganda. Both Russian and against Russian. It's so sad that people can't learn how to co-exist. There are still many Russian groups in my country that will attack you just because you're not Russian. Then again there might be some who attack Russians but I've never heard of such cases. Anyways, it shouldn't be cultivated. I respect Russians and I expect the same treatment. I hold no grudge against the Russian nation but I do dislike people who critisise my country because it's my home and I love it and I want it to be respected. 
Now when I went to St Petersburg I didn't feel like a foreigner that was likely to be attacked. I like Russia, it's a very interesting country with a beautiful culture and I hope that I won't get attacked just because I want to explore it as being an "unwanted element". 
Maybe I'm naive but I think that all the ex-Soviet countries should forget the grudges and maintain good relationships - we have so much in common.

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## Lampada

> ... Maybe I'm naive but I think that all the ex-Soviet countries should forget the grudges and maintain good relationships - we have so much in common.

 +1 
Привет, vegas2times!  Добро пожаловать в MasterRussian!    ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

So what nationality are you vegas2times?

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## vegas2times

Привет! Я так медленно пишу на компьютера в русском языке, вот эта фраза мне просила около 15 минуты и я даже непровераю ошибках
(Ещё 15 минут).
(Phew) But that's why I'm here,right?
I'm  a Latvian girl and I'd like to learn to use the Russian language (and cultural heritage in that matter) as well as my parents and relatives do. I've learnt to view this language as a tool  for opening new horizonts instead of a language that is spoken by those who can't learn Latvian even though they've lived here for many years. The situation has changed here a lot though. It's so nice to see that a lot of people are trying hard to learn the local language and many do so with admirable results - it's so inspirational, I almost feel like owing it to them to learn their language properly as well. 
Baaah, that's one huge offtopic I've made here.. I do apologise!
What I wanted to add is that human nature is prone to clinging to the bad things of the past instead of the possible good things that the future might bring and also we'd rather concentrate on the scandalous and bad deeds than on the good things that have been done  - they're just more noticeable. I think that this might be one of the origins of all those problems mentioned here.

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## lyube

cant we all just get along

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## Dimitri

Tolerance - is sickness, leave 21st century for u, europe and usa )) *They* are not tolerant to *us*. 
We haven't colonize no-one, we haven't slaves, we haven't KKK, we haven't Hitler, so we are not so tolerance like you, sorry, hhaha)))

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