# Forum About Russia Culture and History  What's "white" in russia?

## new1

Nice site you have here.This hapaned some time ago but goign through the boards is it offensive in russian custem to be called caucasian?No offense anyone but I used to think that meant "white" in general but aparntly this anoys people.I know prejutice is bad but is being indian with a germanic accent the cause or the people I spoke to?

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## Nixer

"Caucasian" (кавказец) means *black*. 
The police in Russia is instructed to stop only "*blacks*" (caucasians) and control their passports and registration. If there any explosion, terrorist act, or mafia actions, accidents in marketplaces and basars, all people (and the press) says, this is because "persons of caucasian nationality" or "blacks".

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## N

This *black* has nothing to do with *black races*, though.
It's an *offensive* name for a person from the Caucasus Mountains and this word is not used in polite speech.   

> The police in Russia is instructed to stop only "blacks" (caucasians) and control their passports and registration.

 No. They stop everyone. I'm white*, fair-haired, Slav. And they stop me twice a month to check my passport (I live in Moscow). Maybe they think I'm from Ukraine without registration. 
*Although Russians are white we never say about themselves that way. And I feel strange to say "I'm white". We have no such tradition.

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## Pravit

> Nice site you have here.This hapaned some time ago but goign through the boards is it offensive in russian custem to be called caucasian?No offense anyone but I used to think that meant "white" in general but aparntly this anoys people.I know prejutice is bad but is being indian with a germanic accent the cause or the people I spoke to?

 It annoys me, too, because the people who live in Georgia and Armenia(i.e. the Caucusus) really don't look like average white guys from the US. There is actually a thread about this somewhere in "English for Russians." 
BTW, Nixer, maybe you call people from the Caucusus black in Russian, but in proper English "black", when using it to refer to a person, means someone of African descent.

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## Propp

> BTW, Nixer, maybe you call people from the Caucusus black in Russian...

 I'm afraid they are called "black-assed" in this case, although I would never use this derogatory term myself.

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## kalinka_vinnie

Well, from my experience in Petersburg, Russians call the "black race" for "nigger" (негер) without the negative connotation... I was mildly shocked when I first heard it!

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## DDT

No reason to be shocked in any language. It simply means "black" . The same word in English means the same. Originally a Latin word. So whats all the fuss about?

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## Pravit

The word is негр, and it can be translated as "Negro", which does not have any negative connotations in the US. The word "Neger" is also used in Germany without any negative connotations. These are not translations of the word "n*gger."

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## DDT

Even the word "n*gger" had  no negative connotations until recently. When I was growing up we had this word taught to us in school as the correct name. We even had a popular candy named by this. It comes from the Latin word "Niger".

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## Pravit

Perhaps in Australia, but in the US that word has been regarded as offensive for quite some time.

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## DDT

So that's why I got those "funny" looks when I first came over here!

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## Propp

Mark Twain used 'n i gger' as a common word, the same as 'negro'. Perhaps it was common at his times.

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## brett

The tone of usage by hate-mungers dirtied this word. I've always known it to be inoffensive in its 'true' nature. Though, the same can be said for almost all words. Calling someone a 'slant-eyed' or an 'abo' (short for 'aboriginal' aren't offensive except for the fact that people 'mean' them in an offensive way when they say it. Between me and my friends, 'abo' and leb' (for Lebanese) is a term of endearment accepted in some circles, so long as ytou don't say it to the wrong person. ie. a stranger who doesn't know your neutrality of attitude.
There were once buscuits called 'golliwogs'. Chocalate buscuits. PC-ness has robbed them of their cuteness. I'd honestly never heard any complaints from any black people about this product. It was paranoid white people that took it upon themselves to decide it was offensive, so now it's long gone from the market. At least the name is gone. Maybe they're around under the name 'darker toned epidermal peoples with big curly hair buscuits'. Hence, they're no longer popular with the children. Hence- gone!

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## Propp

Brett, yes, you rightly noticed that it is white people who started this trend with "offensive names". West Europeans and North Americans, to be more specific. And how it all looks from the neutral point of view? First, they f@#ked those "n*ggers" and "slant-eyed" for many decades with their rasist theories, creating the ground for the abusive usage, and now they hypocritically fight for political correctness, f@#$king their minds.
I dont want to say that there are no such problems in Russia (of course they are, and many more serious than that one), it's just an impression of a third-party member.
P.S. Although I'd never call anyone "slant-eyed" myself, so, generally, I preffer just to make a little fun of PC-ness, rather than to hear rasist talks.
BTW, for the subject of this forum. I'm afraid the 'white' in Russian will be "русский"  ::  And 'non-white' will be "нерусский". Just a couple of useful examples from the rough real life:
"В том магазине работают какие-то нерусские."
"Понаехали тут чурки нерусские."
"Чё ты, правильно сделать не можешь? Делаешь всё не по-русски..."
And even: "Актёр такой, ну, он ещё в Матрице снимался, там один из главных чуваков, нерусский" 
(Это было бы смешно, если бы не было так грустно).  ::

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## brett

Yes. The people who legislate out such words and products are the very people who never look an ethnic person in the eye. They treat them as political crusades, rather than as people to connect with and learn from on a human level. That's the most offensive thing one can do. Using a racial unrest as a PC badge of honour, yet continuing ones own seperatist view of the peoples. It doesn't bring people together, it seperates them further.

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## DDT

> Yes. The people who legislate out such words and products are the very people who never look an ethnic person in the eye. They treat them as political crusades, rather than as people to connect with and learn from on a human level.

 Too right,mate!

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## Pravit

Some of those words have innocent backgrounds and some of them don't - I'm sure "abo" was originally thought up so people wouldn't have to say "aborigine" all the time. But do you really think the term "slant-eye" has ever been used in a neutral sense? It would be sort of like calling Jews "crooked-nose" and then expecting them to take it as a completely inoffensive term. For comparison, in China there's a term "gaobizi"(tall nose) to refer to white people. It has always been a pejorative term and to this day you will piss off white expats with it. Maybe not because of the term itself, but because of the context they hear it in. There's also a word that's more innocent, "laowai"(literally "old foreigner"), sort of the "hey old boy" way of referring to foreigners, but apparently Westerners are starting to find this offensive as well. It's interesting to hear about their experiences when they're on the receiving end. Many Westerners who were unaware of racism in their hometowns are suddenly complaining about people making fun of their big eyes and (perceived) lack of intelligence. 
Interestingly enough, in politically correct Germany you can still buy little chocolate snacks called "Negerkuss(Negro kiss)" or "Mohrkopf(Moor head)."

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## DDT

> Some of those words have innocent backgrounds and some of them don't - I'm sure "abo" was originally thought up so people wouldn't have to say "aborigine" all the time.

  You are right about that and I will tell you right now that word will not be dropped from my my vocabulary.  Anyone who takes offence at that is not worth having as a friend. 
That would be like me getting offended at being called an "Aussie". And that would be complete B.S.

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## Старик

> The word is негр, and it can be translated as "Negro", which does not have any negative connotations in the US. The word "Neger" is also used in Germany without any negative connotations. These are not translations of the word "n*gger."

 Pravit you are completely wrong about the usage of the word "Neger" in German. No one will use this word in public if he does not want to be strongly provocative.
I think the reactions provoked by using this word have changed in much the same way as when using the word "Nigger" in the US. 30 of 40 years ago "Neger" was a more or less neutral word for people of black skin. But nowadays it has a very strong derogative connotation.

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## Pravit

Alas! Old Mr. Cothrun in my high school German class must not have known, then.  ::  Good that I haven't used it yet.

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## Линдзи

> Yes. The people who legislate out such words and products are the very people who never look an ethnic person in the eye. They treat them as political crusades, rather than as people to connect with and learn from on a human level. That's the most offensive thing one can do. Using a racial unrest as a PC badge of honour, yet continuing ones own seperatist view of the peoples. It doesn't bring people together, it seperates them further.

 Unnnnngh.  My immediately family is racially mixed, so I'm pretty sure I've looked some duskier folks in the eyes lately.  (Incidentally, I do so hate the use of the word "ethnic" to describe anyone non-White.  Everyone has ethnicity, dur.)  And I'm quite a fan of using the correct terms for groups of people, which would be my definition of political correctness.  I believe those terms should be chosen by the groups whom they represent, though.

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## BlackMage

> There's also a word that's more innocent, "laowai"(literally "old foreigner

 My school is like 30% asian and its not uncommon to hear things like this but I think they say something more like, "weilao" but I know at least that the order is backwards of yours.  They say something more derogatory sometimes but I don't remember what it is...

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## BlackMage

My roommate from last year used to always call me that and speak Chinese to his parents whenever I was in the room until he realized I could understand what he was calling me and I started calling him "big fish" in english to my parents.  (His name is Dayu)

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## brett

I agree that it is offensive that whites seem to think 'being ethnic' is a one-way street. But, I disagree with you if your stance is that the term 'ethnic' should be done away with. eg.  A tree is a plant. It would be purposeless to avoid calling it a plant simply because there's a more specific reference out there, ie. a tree. Whether I call a black person 'ethnic' or 'African' is merely a matter of how specific the conversation is. Neither is more or less correct. Contrary to popular belief, it is actually impossible not to generalize. That is the nature of language itself. 'Me' is a generalization, in that it refers to everyone who is not someone else. It is merely consequential that it becomes so unambiguous. Its specific nature is a by-product of extreme generalization.(Yes, an obscure example. But, it is one way of looking at it, despite being a confusing way). 
The word ethnic is merely a relative term. To a black person I'm ethnic. I 'd full-heartedly welcome the description of myself as ethnic, in relation to an Aborigine. I don't say to people "I'm ethnic" because they wouldn't understand what the heck I'm talking about. But, inside myself, I do honest to God consider whites in Australia as ethnic. 'Ethnic' is only offensive to me if I'm of the delusion that being ethnic is a negative thing. It's neither negative nor positive, hence it's inoffensive. I'm less ethnic than a Chinese Australian, as Britsih people inhabited earlier. But I'm more ethnic than an Aborigine, as Aborigines inhabited earlier.
So, I agree that the word ethnic has been wrongfully applied as meaning 'non-white'. The only places where white people CAN'T be deemed ethnic in relation to their inhabited land, is Scandinavia, Northern Europe and the Ural Mountains.(I'm actually not sure about the Ural Mountains, but everyone says that's where whites derive from originally). Though, these places are shared with other equally native peoples. So, they'd be fine to consider each other ethnic.
So, rather than rebel against the word 'ethnic', do you not think rebelling against the 'mis-usage of' that term would be more fruitful? There's nothing negative about being ethnic.

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## Линдзи

It's just a stupid use of the word.  Everyone is ethnic, so describing someone as an "ethnic person" or whatever is just...dur.  It's like describing someone as a "dna-having person."  Well, _obviously_.  It's true, but it's also pointless to say it.

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## Линдзи

Incidentally, one of the meanings of the word "ethnic" _is_ (according to Miriam-Webster) "Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen."  It's not often used in this manner anymore, but the definition is there, so I generally prefer to use less ambiguous terms.

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## brett

It's not a wasted word if it's used appropriately. If there are two towns. One has all white people, or all black people. The second town has ten races mixed together. It is useful to say the second town is ethnic. Or, ethnically diverse. Whereas, the first town is British, or Aboriginal. 
I wouldn't trust a dictionary to tell me what a morally charged word means. Once upon a time the word 'superior' probably read- white person. It doesn't mean that is what it means. There never was such a defintion, even if the dictionary said there was.
Nowadays even, the word 'heathen' is said to mean 'non-spiritual'. I'm a heathen, and proud of it. I know that the true definition of 'heathen' means a person who lives in the fields (heaths) away from town and church. Since when is living in a field with God's trees and birds and wolves 'unspiritual'. Never. That has always been a false definition made up by church-going extremists. Therfore, I'm entirely comfortable with that word, and would not be offended by it, even if the dictionary says I should be.

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## kalinka_vinnie

Well, I think we should all be friends

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## Pravit

> My school is like 30% asian and its not uncommon to hear things like this but I think they say something more like, "weilao" but I know at least that the order is backwards of yours. They say something more derogatory sometimes but I don't remember what it is...

 Who speaks Chinese here, you or me? That may be a different word. And it is entirely possible it is some Cantonese/(insert dialect here) slang swear word.

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## Линдзи

> It's not a wasted word if it's used appropriately. If there are two towns. One has all white people, or all black people. The second town has ten races mixed together. It is useful to say the second town is ethnic. Or, ethnically diverse. Whereas, the first town is British, or Aboriginal..

 "Ethnically diverse" would be a proper use of the term.  There is diversity of the ethnic variety.  "Ethnic," however, is not the same thing as "ethnically diverse."  The primary definition of "ethnic" is just "related to cultural heritage" or something of that sort.

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## waxwing

Hey I'm easily offended, I don't like it when they call me laowai (laoshi please  ::  ) .. but then they like to call the Russians 'hairy ones' ... luckily I've forgotten what the word for that is so if they're calling me that I don't know about it  ::  
It's certainly an education from the point of view of racism. But I'm of the opinion that a Westerner's experience in China is easier psychologically than the other way round. 
All the same we get a taste of what it's like here. I don't really like being stared at very much but I've been pleased by my resilience. I always know when a "Hello!" is just a friendly greeting, and when it's a bunch of idiots who want the foreign monkey to dance. In the latter case I have the psychological strength not to get annoyed. But like I said it's nothing like what it would have been for a black guy from the West Indies in London in the 1960s.

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## Pravit

Interesting to hear from someone in the opposite situation, Waxwing! BTW, are you aware of bands of nationalist Chinese that roam around and attack foreign-looking men? I've always wondered why skinhead types are largely constrained to countries where the population is predominantly white.

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## BlackMage

> Originally Posted by BlackMage  My school is like 30% asian and its not uncommon to hear things like this but I think they say something more like, "weilao" but I know at least that the order is backwards of yours. They say something more derogatory sometimes but I don't remember what it is...   Who speaks Chinese here, you or me? That may be a different word. And it is entirely possible it is some Cantonese/(insert dialect here) slang swear word.

 I just talked to him he said it's wailao and that my foreign ears are stupid.
(I thought he was competent) 
Then I talked to another chinese dude... 
yomommasays (11:31:33 PM): laowai always
yomommasays (11:31:40 PM): its not even old foreinger
yomommasays (11:31:46 PM): its foreigner
yomommasays (11:31:51 PM): jsut part of the expression
blackmage (11:31:57 PM): dude d-liu used to call me wailao all the time
blackmage (11:32:02 PM): he even admits it
yomommasays (11:32:08 PM): HAHAHAAH
yomommasays (11:32:11 PM): n00b 
sorry I just post what I hear.

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## DDT

> I've always wondered why skinhead types are largely constrained to countries where the population is predominantly white.

 Generally white races don't want to all emmigrate to a third world country. For your answer just look at the island country of Vanuatu and it's recent coup and reasons surrounding it. I sure hope I don't have to give a history lesson here.

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## brett

'Ethnic' is a legitimate word. It's just a matter of knowing when to use it. It's only a superfluous term if one uses it incorrectly.

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## waxwing

> Originally Posted by Pravit   I've always wondered why skinhead types are largely constrained to countries where the population is predominantly white.   Generally white races don't want to all emmigrate to a third world country. For your answer just look at the island country of Vanuatu and it's recent coup and reasons surrounding it. I sure hope I don't have to give a history lesson here.

 Nothing to do with being white, everything to do with being relatively richer. Astarozhna.

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## Pravit

Yeah, I suppose you could attribute it to the amount of non-Asians in Asian countries, which is tiny in comparison to the amount of Asians in non-Asian countries. But still, why, why Russia? Why not Norway or some other country I'm not interested in visiting?  ::  
Blackmage: It doesn't mean old foreigner. If you look, I used the word "literal" in my post. I was giving a *literal translation.* And again, your friend who is using "weilao" probably doesn't speak Mandarin or is using a different word.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Why not Norway or some other country I'm not interested in visiting?

   ::   ::   ::  you do not want to visit my home country? You racist!   ::     ::

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## DDT

There was an Asian - American guy from Seattle who posted 270 photo's from his most recent trip across Russia. He spent 6 months there and travelled by train mostly. He met and talked to girls at every opportunutiy  he could . He would be sitting at a cafe or some place and take photo's , sometimes of a group of girls and then start "chatting them up".  Sometimes they would show him around their town for a few days and then he would catch a train for the next city. With every picture he wrote the story concerning it. The whole thing was really quite funny but interestingly enough , other than being pick-pocketed once he never had any troubles there. I tried to find the link to the site but it is gone.  This guy couldn't speak very much Russian at all,  either.  I wouldn't think you have too much too worry about, Pravitt.

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## Pravit

> Originally Posted by Pravit   Why not Norway or some other country I'm not interested in visiting?       you do not want to visit my home country? You racist!

 Awwwww! I...uh...well, uh, perhaps I've had a change of opinion! I mean...I *love* fjords! 
DDT: Yeah, I know I shouldn't be concerned about it. But it's just a little unsettling. In dark Moscow alleys I shall not tread!

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## new1

Wow dude(t?)s thankf for all your replies! S the guy must have thought I meat "from the cacuasian mountains" instead of "european". 
DDT, this refers only to a very small percent of history  ::  Ofcoutse actual pre-WW2 colines etc are too much to discuss but lets just say that when things were diferent white people didnt have to worry about skinhead attacking them. 
J/K I know they were only the rich people who could afford to come all the way  ::

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