# Forum About Russia Politics  Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

## Marcus

Предлагаю прочитать статью "Сны разума", опубликованную в журнале "Однако".  В статье кратко и чётко сформулированы идеологические причины распада СССР, с которыми я полностью согласен. #19 (83)::Сны разума

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## mishau_

Риторика в стиле "Главный демократ Ельцин и вся российская либеральная тусовка..."  показывает, что статья не претендует на серьезность анализа причин распада СССР. И больше ставит автора на уровень "Московского Методологического Кружка"))
 Дальше читать не стал.

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## Crocodile

Ну, честно говоря статья не впечатлила. Там намешано и много правдивого и много спорного. Многие положения уже не раз мы тут обсуждали в разных вариантах. Основное положение, которое утверждает, что мы не очень знали, чего хотели - верно. А подспудное, обычно высказываемое положение в таких случаях, что мы были наивны, а Америка этим воспользовалась - ложно. Красивые слова про "демократизацию" были, но про этом был и резкий дефицит товаров, были талоны и на сахар и на водку. И принудительный обмен денег в 3 дня был. И однодневная инфляция, когда все цены ВНЕЗАПНО подскочили в 3 раза, тоже была. Многие верили в рыночную экономику, но не верили, что может быть такой уровень коррупции. Многое было.

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## Marcus

> А подспудное, обычно высказываемое положение в таких случаях, что мы были наивны, а Америка этим воспользовалась - ложно.

 Мы не были наивны? Америка этим не воспользовалась?

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## Vadim M.

А мне понравилась статья, хоть я и читал её с некоторым предубеждением после двух последних комментариев.  Вспомнил себя тогдашнего, да и других. Узнаваемо.

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## Crocodile

> Мы не были наивны? Америка этим не воспользовалась?

 Ох, вопрос вопросов. Понимаешь, если тебя выпускают из страны в исключительных случаях, то ореол недоступности - штука непростая. Если практически всё, что тебя окружает хорошего качества - импортное. Если ты постоянно слышишь истории от тех, кто там был, про то, что в США можно жить не сильно хуже, чем у нас и при этом нигде не работать. Если ты слышишь истории, что в США обычный инженер живёт в своём доме с двумя машинами и т.д. В этом случае наша пропаганда про пользу построения развитого социализма в одной, отдельно взятой стране совсем не канает. Это при том, что вся бодяга-то собственно и замышлялась ради светлого будущего состоящего из чего? Правильно, в идеале от каждого по возможностям, каждому по потребностям. А разница между потребностями и их практическим "удовлетворением" познавалась в сравнении с ним, вечно загнивающим. По ходу дела, за правое дело удовлетворения потребностей наломали кучу дров, вроде как движемся ударными темпами от пятилетке к пятилетке, а воз и ныне там. А авторитетные источники эманируют нам серьёзные исследования про количество потребления белков, жиров и углеводов в СССР и в США на душу населения. А белок - он и есть белок. И из рябчика и из второсортной курицы. Ферштейн за нашу наивность?  
А про то, как США воспользовались этой нашей наивностью - это другая история, которую я расскажу тебе в следующую ночь, о повелитель.  ::

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## Hanna

The sad thing is that the people gave up on the USSR which had many good points along with the bad,*but for what?*  
So that oligarchs could "steal" everything that was worth having, lots of wars between people who had previously managed to live together without killing each other... and the rest of the country fell into chaos and disrepair, and Russians got a bad reputation  
Everyone in Western Europe at least, at that time, knew that Eastern Europeans were "naive" and did not know the true value of things + lots of other things that people need to know in a capitalist society. There were lots of funny stories from Eastern Germany about that, because things happened so fast there. I am sure America took as much advantage of it as they could. 
CIA analysts and others have scenarios for "what to do if x happens". 
I am sure they had tons or ready-made plans for what to do in lots of different spheres, if the USSR started falling apart. From the point of view of economy, military. It was their dream come true anyway, and I think it has played out almost exactly as they wanted up until Putin came along.  
If I was Russian, I think I would have preferred to keep the USSR together, and reform it at a slower pace, or perhaps revise why there were problems with Communism. Like Gorbachev tried, but without letting things get out of hand.  *
That said, I am really happy that Russia and the other countries are more open now, and that there is more freedom for regular people.*

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## Marcus

Hanna, have read the article? If yes, was it difficult?  

> Like Gorbachev tried, but without letting things get out of hand.

 Gorbachev is just a traitor. He deliberately destroyed the Soviet Union.

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## Hanna

Many Russian people have said on this forum that Gorbachev was a traitor. 
It seems to be a common opinion. 
What is it exactly that you don't like, that he did? The Glasnost idea? The perestroika idea? Allowing the USSR to disintegrate, or what? 
What should he have done differently? Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?  
What do people in other ex USSR countries think about him, for example Ukraine and Belarus?

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## Vadim M.

Я не считаю Горбачёва плохим парнем. В любом случае менять что-то надо было. И в ту страну я не хотел бы, пожалуй, вернуться.

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## Marcus

> Allowing the USSR to disintegrate,

 He did not ALLOW to desintegrate, he deliberately destroyed the Soviet Union. First, STATE Media started making anti-soviet propaganda in 1987. They also allowed to do the same to Radio Liberty and many other Western organizations. Then they allowed to convert cashless ruble into cash, private international trade and something else, that lead to deficiency (latent inflation) in 1988. I've heard that they deliberately caused shortage of food by sabotage. They destroyed all the socialist allies in Europe in 1989. Finally, in 1990 the law that described the procedure to quit the Union by a republic was accepted. Gorbachev allowed Eltsin to take power, who started the process of leaving of Russia the Soviet Union.  

> Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?

 В истории нет "бы". (There is no "would" in history).  

> What do people in other ex USSR countries think about him, for example Ukraine and Belarus?

 Probably the same, but you have more opportunities to ask them than me.  

> What should he have done differently?

 Have converted some part of military industry and gradually change stupid socialist ideology.
You haven't answered my question, Hanna.

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## Hanna

> You haven't answered my question, Hanna.

  Well I didn't want to admit that the article was super hard to read and I gave up about 1/3 through...  ::

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## BappaBa

> А авторитетные источники эманируют нам серьёзные исследования про количество потребления белков, жиров и углеводов в СССР и в США на душу населения. А белок - он и есть белок. И из рябчика и из второсортной курицы. Ферштейн за нашу наивность?

 =) Сегодня случайно наткнулся:   

> Среднестатистический россиянин, по мнению чиновников, должен съедать по  366 г хлеба или макарон в день. При этом в 1941 г. паек для немецкого  военнопленного, содержащегося в местах лишения свободы или в пути  следования, составлял почти вдвое больше — 600 г. В пересчете на день  немцы получали в три раза больше рыбы, немного больше овощей, а также  вчетверо больше «соли, чая и специй».   
> Зато в продуктовом минимуме у россиян появились фрукты — по 63 г  в день, яйца и молоко, чем немцев обделили. Россиянам также положено в  два раза больше мяса, а москвичам — почти в три. Можно порадоваться и за  то, что россияне должны получать, по мнению властей, на 40 г больше  сладкого, чем немцы в дни войны, а также потреблять на 16 г больше  масла. Хотя в пайке немцев, в отличие от общероссийской корзины,  присутствовали еще и мука, томат-пюре, а в лучшие времена и горох,  фасоль, сухофрукты и кофе.

  
Фото, видимо, предвоенное.

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## mergike

Hanna asked: What do people in other ex USSR countries think about Gorbachev?
So, there comes an answer  :: 
Lithuania also was a part of Soviet union back then and I (being a Lithuanian myself) think that most of Lithuanians now are really very happy that such a union do not exist now anymore. I guess Gorbachev actually was the most normal president of Russia compared with other ones that ruled before him... 
And actually I'm really happy that Lithuania was the first country who regained independence after these terrible years of occupation and other countries did the same. ( I guess now a lot of Russians who will read this will start to hate me because of what I said but, anyway, it's my oppinion) 
Actually, I don't think that Soviet union do not exist anymore because of the things that Gorbachev did. 
It's existance wouldn't have lasted much longer even if he hadn't ruled this country. I think that it's really naive to think that you can create a stong union by occupying the country, starting killing and deportating it's people to Siberia... destroying culture and language of this country... trying to make all it's people atheists, nationalizing all their lands and forcing them to work in these terrible farms and of course paying almost nothing for it...and doing many other terrible things and then expect that these countries will want to be a member of such union, even though they never wanted to be a part of it at all!!! 
If such a union existed even now, the only one quite good thing would be just that now there wouldn't be any need for me to study Russian language by myself. And you know why? The answer is: because I would have been FORCED to learn that while I was still in primary school! Anyway, noone can change history and it would be quite stupid to start blaming someone now for the things that was done in my country, because nothing would change because of it anyway. But these things can never be delated from peoples' memory.

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## nulle

> He did not ALLOW to desintegrate, he deliberately destroyed the Soviet Union.

 And many many many many thanks him for that  ::   

> I guess Gorbachev actually was the most normal president of Russia compared with other ones that ruled before him...

 And after him too  :: 
Maybe except Yeltsin.  

> I (being a Lithuanian myself) think that most of Lithuanians now are really very happy that such a union do not exist now anymore.

 That's right - most of Baltic people think that way.

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## Eric C.

> And many many many many thanks him for that  
> And after him too 
> Maybe except Yeltsin. 
> That's right - most of Baltic people think that way.

 Guess the only countries that liked being in the USSR and gained anything from that were its Asian republics. Whereas it was torture for its European territory. I totally understand you, guys.

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## Юрка

> Many Russian people have said on this forum that Gorbachev was a traitor. 
> It seems to be a common opinion. 
> What is it exactly that you don't like, that he did? The Glasnost idea? The perestroika idea? Allowing the USSR to disintegrate, or what? 
> What should he have done differently? Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?

 Я думаю, что он был беспомощен в экономике и занимался только пиаром своих "реформ". Китайцы наоборот, начали с экономических свобод.
Горбачёву нужно было разрешить и организовать мелкий бизнес. Тем бы он решил проблему дефицита. А он вместо этого разрешил болтовню (гласность). А зачем голодным болтовня? Александр II освободил крестьян, но не дал им земли. А зачем стране крестьяне без земли? В общем, Горбачёв по моему мнению - слабый политик, который начал не с того. Да он вообще не политик, а аппаратчик. У него навыки проводить совещания и переговоры, а не страну строить.

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## Юрка

> 

 Классная фотка. Выражение лиц - отпад. Все взгляды в одну точку и чувствуется, что посещение этого магазина - событие для людей не маловажное. В общем, узнаю нашу жисть...

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## nulle

> What should he have done differently? Would you have preferred if he had never been president of the USSR at all?

 He should have given independence to Baltics much sooner - in 1985 when he got power.
And also should have ended war in Afghanistan much sooner.
But I agree that he should have given economic freedoms first and transistion to capitalism should have been more controlled.

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## Basil77

Baltic forest brothers are being faggots as usual. ::

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## Eric C.

> Baltic forest brothers are being faggots as usual.

 What makes you think so?

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## Basil77

> What makes you think so?

 Their posts.

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## Eric C.

> Their posts.

 The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?

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## Basil77

> The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?

 The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

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## Eric C.

> The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

 I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well. And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime. But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...

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## Lampada

> Baltic forest brothers are being faggots as usual.

 Все имеют право на своё мнение, любое.  Не надо обзываться.

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## nulle

It's pathetic. So what that I killed your family - I brought you a cake (that i stole from a neighbor) - or if you did not like what I have done, then you should give me my cake back.
I think most Lithuanians would rather choose independence instead of Vilnius region + Soviet occupation.  

> constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc.

 These are facts of history - ignoring them wont make them go away.  

> such repressions took place all over USSR

 Yes, but nothing like that happened in Baltics before occupation. Even when Kārlis Ulmanis got power in military coup - he killed no one.
Soviet occupation did not give us anything good - so it's no surprise that we are not particularly excited about it.  

> The general attitude towards Russians

 I do not hate Russians - it's Putin's regime that I can't stand. 
It is no surprise that Soviet Union disintegrated. Sad that it did not happen sooner.
It was not a normal country, but a giant prison.

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## mergike

> The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

 First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS and try to remember it if you are able to do it. And this capital city was founded by Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (this city was mentioned in written resources in 1323) therefore, from the beginning of it’s existence it’s Lithuanians who always lived there, and the fact that in 1920 Armija Krajova occupied Vilnius and it became part of Poland till 1939 doesn’t mean that Vilnius is a Polish city. And I completely don’t understand what Belarus has common with Vilnius because this city hasn’t ever been a part of this country and Belarussians have no right to it at all.

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## mergike

> I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well. And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime. But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...

 Most of them are just proud of it and think that these occupations were the best part of their history... this is why they don't like Gorbachev so much and think that he was a very weak politician and traitor...

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## nulle

> First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS

 Vilnius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Basil77

> These are facts of history - ignoring them wont make them go away.

 I'm not denying these facts, but constanly talking about it makes YOU pathetic - look that Germans did to Russians during WWII (and Balts were happily helping them in this): 27 million killed, 18 million from this number are civillians, but we don't blame modern Germans for this, actually attitude to modern Germans in Russia is rather friendly, we blame Hitler and Nazism wich are secretly admired in Baltics nowdays. How about acting like grown-ups and forgive&forget like we did?  

> I do not hate Russians - it's Putin's regime that I can't stand.

 I do not hate Balts either, it's just the behavior of some of them that pisses me off. Btw, what so-called "Putin regime" did to you that you can't stand it? Prohibited sprats export to Russia or what? I thought Russia can't affect you now when you are in EU and NATO, so unless you live in Russia I don't see how current Russian goverment could do you any harm.  

> First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS and try to remember it if you  are able to do it. And this capital city was founded by Lithuanian Grand  Duke Gediminas (this city was mentioned in written resources in 1323)  therefore, from the beginning of it’s existence it’s Lithuanians who  always lived there, and the fact that in 1920 Armija Krajova occupied  Vilnius and it became part of Poland till 1939 doesn’t mean that Vilnius  is a Polish city. And I completely don’t understand what Belarus has  common with Vilnius because this city hasn’t ever been a part of this  country and Belarussians have no right to it at all.

 I don't care how it's called in your language, it was called Вильно in Russian through most of it's history, so I prefer to call it so along with Reval, Helsingfors etc. And it doesn't matter who founded what, you would be the first who would scream out loud about Russian imperialism if Russians would demand back all cities we founded. And btw, majority of Wilno population in 1939 were Jews (44%), how convinient that soon nazis came and murdered them all (not without help of Lithuanians), huh?  

> Most of them are just proud of it and think that these occupations were  the best part of their history... this is why they don't like Gorbachev  so much and think that he was a very weak politician and traitor...

 Most of Russians see the annexation of Baltic republic (actually Baltic governments requested USSR membership, under Stalin's pressure, yes, you could resist as Finland successfully did but your governments had chosen to not)  as a necessary evil wich were needed to keep nazi forces further from Russian borders in aticipation of big war, wich was obviously inevitable, also it's viewed as an unsignificant side-event, so actually we don't pay much attention to this.

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## Basil77

> I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well.

 You shouldn't worry, I call these Russians faggots too.  

> And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime.

 And what makes a regime legal? AFAIK in the modern world it's a UN membership and following international agreements. It's funny that this "illegal" regime as you called it was one of the founders of UN itself.  

> But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...

 Russians "took over and opressed many neighbor contries", my ass. First, attitude to the people in national republics from the goverment didn't differ from the attitute to the people in ethnic Russian regions. Second, USSR was an empire "upside-down" actually: almost all national republics comsumed more overall GDP than produced and were leeching metropoly instead of feeding it. So it's a big question who opressed whom, please stop writing nonsense about Russians who thinks that it's good that we "opressed" somebody.

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## mergike

> I do not hate Balts either, it's just the behavior of some of them that pisses me off. Btw, what so-called "Putin regime" did to you that you can't stand it? Prohibited sprats export to Russia or what? I thought Russia can't affect you now when you are in EU and NATO, so unless you live in Russia I don't see how current Russian goverment could do you any harm.

 Haha you do not hate Balts ::  but you call us faggots! This greatly shows how much you love us!  :: 
Russia can‘t affect us now? But Russia is still so much trying to do that. For example, I hope that you know that Lithuania has to pay political but not economical price for Gasprom gasses (which is 40 persent higher than price which have to pay our neighbours) only because Lithuania implemented the third EU directive in gas sector and this way we are going towadrs energetical independence from Russia, However, it‘s just obvious that Russia hates it so much.  So how you‘ll explain this???

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## mergike

> I don't care how it's called in your language, it was called Вильно in Russian through most of it's history, so I prefer to call it so along with Reval, Helsingfors etc. And it doesn't matter who founded what, you would be the first who would scream out loud about Russian imperialism if Russians would demand back all cities we founded. And btw, majority of Wilno population in 1939 were Jews (44%), how convinient that soon nazis came and murdered them all (not without help of Lithuanians), huh?

 And what cities you founded????? You just destroyed everything man! 
I don‘t think that it was convinient at all because even in midleages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disapear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified  ::

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## mergike

> Russians "took over and opressed many neighbor contries", my ass. First, attitude to the people in national republics from the goverment didn't differ from the attitute to the people in ethnic Russian regions. Second, USSR was an empire "upside-down" actually: almost all national republics comsumed more overall GDP than produced and were leeching metropoly instead of feeding it. So it's a big question who opressed whom, please stop writing nonsense about Russians who thinks that it's good that we "opressed" somebody.

 
 LOL  ::  So now these respuplics which was occupied by Russia are the ones who oppressed USSR? damn, are we still oppressing you??  ::  That‘s the funniest thing I‘ve read on this forum  ::  whahahahah  ::   then maybe you can explain for to me this fact  ::  if these occupied countries was such a burden for Russia and Russia like usually ‘‘was the country of highest developements and there was the best walfare for it‘s people‘‘  ::  then why Stalinas, Chrusciovas, Breznevas, Andropovas, Cernenko din‘t canceled all these occupations and didn‘t stopped all these repressions against Baltic people and simply didn‘t let us live our life in free demokratic respublics?????  ::  
you actually couln‘t say a bigger nonsence than this  ::  :

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## BappaBa

Lithuanians beat Jews to death with steel bars

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## mergike

> Lithuanians beat Jews to death with steel bars

 
Do you think that if you put there fake photos and will say that it was Lithuanians who killed these Jewish people in Lietūkis it will be a proof? It won‘t be a proof at all.
Because the first photo has appeared in Polish press and under it was said that it‘s Polish prosecuted pogrom in Kelcai (city in south of Poland) but not the killings in Lietūkis garages. So how should one understand this fact??? 
But now let‘s talk about second photo. Do you know who is this man standing in the photo? Some kind of Lithuanian? I bet that you have no idea about it because otherwise you wouldn‘t have put this photo there and made such a mistake  ::  This man in the photo is SS obarshturmfhurer Joachim Hamman and I guess you understand from his name and surname that he isn‘t Lithuanian but German. Hamman was a leader of Rollkommando Hamann - a small mobile unit which committed mass Jewish murders in Lithuania and also was responsible for large number of murders in Latvia, Daugavpils. So are you still thinking that it‘s Lithuanians who are beating this Jewish people with metal steel bars??? 
Of course, I don‘t say that there was no Lithuanian who killed a Jewish (some were forced by Nazis), but as I said before most of Lithuanian people tried to save lives of Jewish people because we never had anything against them. 
Doesn‘t it really seems strange to you that since middle ages there was no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish and just suddenly when Nazis occupied Lithuania all Lithuanians started to ‘‘hate‘‘ Jewish so much? 
It‘s silly to put the blame on Lithuanians for Jewish massacres in my country, when most of the people risked their own lives to save these Jewish people. 
But anyway, why are you delving in topics about holocaust, when this thread was started do talk about Russia and collapse of Soviet Union? Don‘t you think that holocaust is off this topic????

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## Basil77

> Haha you do not hate Balts but you call us faggots! This greatly shows how much you love us!

 I called so not the Baltic people in general, but only the ones who expressed such opinions as yours.  

> Russia can‘t affect us now? But Russia is still so much trying to do that. For example, I hope that you know that Lithuania has to pay political but not economical price for Gasprom gasses (which is 40 persent higher than price which have to pay our neighbours) only because Lithuania implemented the third EU directive in gas sector and this way we are going towadrs energetical independence from Russia, However, it‘s just obvious that Russia hates it so much.  So how you‘ll explain this???

 By neighbours you mean Belorussia? But it has a discount as a member of Customs Union. You can also apply for membership and ask a discount after that. Btw, if you want to have nothing common with Russia why you keep buying gas from us and whinie about high prices? Buy it from your fellow NATO member Norway for example (but mind that Norway's export gas prices are even higher than the current price you are paying to Russia).  

> And what cities you founded????? You just destroyed everything man!

 How about all the cities and towns in modern Khazakhstan and Ukrainian Black Sea coast? Even Narva in modern Estonia was founded by Russians.  

> I don‘t think that it was convinient at all because even in midleages  Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think  that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW  II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disapear from  our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were  no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t  know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these  innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply  forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that  that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many  actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these  Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So  these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish  actually can‘t be really justified

 See photos in ВарраВа's post.  

> So now these respuplics which was occupied by Russia are the ones who oppressed USSR? damn, are we still oppressing you??  That‘s the funniest thing I‘ve read on this forum  whahahahah   then maybe you can explain for to me this fact   if these occupied countries was such a burden for Russia and Russia  like usually ‘‘was the country of highest developements and there was  the best walfare for it‘s people‘‘   then why Stalinas, Chrusciovas, Breznevas, Andropovas, Cernenko din‘t  canceled all these occupations and didn‘t stopped all these repressions  against Baltic people and simply didn‘t let us live our life in free  demokratic respublics?????  
> you actually couln‘t say a bigger nonsence than this

 You can enjoy your life in "free democratic republics" now: 
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession

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## mergike

> I(actually Baltic governments requested USSR membership, under Stalin's pressure, yes, you could resist as Finland successfully did but your governments had chosen to not)

 
1940 06 14 Lithuania received ultimatum from Russia which demanded to make a new government and guarantee entrance for red army which will be located in main strategic points in Lithuania. Lithuania had to answer to this ultimatum till June 15th, 10 o’clock in the morning. However, in 1940. 06. 15 morning soviets were already there and occupied Lithuania (bringing to Lithuania 15 red army divisions, about 150 thousands of soldiers).
 Therefore SSRS with this ultimatum broke: 
1920 07 12 peace treaty between Lithuania and Soviet Russia.
1926 september 28th nonaggression and neutrality pact between Lithuania and Soviet Russia.
1939 october 10th mutual help agreement.
In 1940 June 17th USSR also occupied Užnemunės region, which under 1939 September 28th treaty between Germany and Russia belonged to Germany, therefore later on Russia paid 7,5 million dollar compensation to Germany. And then all Lithuania belonged to USSR. This is what is called ILLEGAL OCCUPATION which left no choice for Lithuanians to resist (however, there was a partizanian war against USSR in 1944-1953), because red army already was in Lithuania’s territory.
Learn some history first of all!

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## mergike

> I called so not the Baltic people in general, but only the ones who expressed such opinions as yours.

 
Then you still hate most of them because most ot Baltic people think the same way.

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## mergike

> By neighbours you mean Belorussia? But it has a discount as a member of Customs Union. You can also apply for membership and ask a discount after that. Btw, if you want to have nothing common with Russia why you keep buying gas from us and whinie about high prices? Buy it from your fellow NATO member Norway for example (but mind that Norway's export gas prices are even higher than the current price you are paying to Russia).

 No, I mean Latvia, Estonia and Poland  ::  Are all these countries also members of customs union?  ::

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## mergike

> How about all the cities and towns in modern Khazakhstan and Ukrainian Black Sea coast? Even Narva in modern Estonia was founded by Russians.

 Haha you founded one city in Estonia  ::  Well done, good achievement after such destruction of this country  ::

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## mergike

> See photos in ВарраВа's post.

 See what I wrote under barbara’s post  ::

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## mergike

> You can enjoy your life in "free democratic republics" now: 
> Source: Late-2000s recession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
YES, YOU CAN’T EVEN IMAGINE HOW MUCH I’M ENJOYING IT  ::  
Taken from Wikipedia:
Lithuania is a member of the European Union and the biggest economy among three Baltic states. GDP per capita reached USD17,800 in 2008 and was higher than the ones of all its neighbors – Latvia, Poland, *RUSSIA* and Belarus[9].
GDP per capita in Lithuania is 70% above the world’s average of USD 10,500[9]. Lithuania has a favorable legislative basis for business as the country is ranked the 3rd in the region of Eastern Europe and Central Asia[10] and the 26th in the world by the Ease of Doing Business Index prepared by the World Bank Group [11]. Lithuania is ranked the 30th out of 179 countries in the Index of Economic Freedom, measured by The Heritage Foundation[12]. According to the Human Development Report 2009, Lithuania belongs to the group of high human development countries. Economy of Lithuania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Basil77

> there was a partizanian war against USSR in 1944-1953

 These "partizans" were the ones who served in Hitler's army and were afraid of rightful punishment for their crimes.  

> No, I mean Latvia, Estonia and Poland  Are all these countries also members of customs union?

 Well, as I wrote above, if you don't like the price, buy gas somethere else.  

> Haha you founded one city in Estonia  Well done, good achievement after such destruction of this country

 Destruction, yeah.   

> According to the Human Development Report 2009, Lithuania belongs to the group of high human development countries.

 Human development index counts most of all education and most of your adult population got one, at least partially, in so awful Soviet times.

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## nulle

> look that Germans did to Russians during WWII (and Balts were happily helping them in this): 27 million killed, 18 million from this number are civillians, but we don't blame modern Germans for this, actually attitude to modern Germans in Russia is rather friendly, we blame Hitler and Nazism wich are secretly admired in Baltics nowdays. How about acting like grown-ups and forgive&forget like we did?

 We do not blame modern Germans too - because their predecessors abandoned Nazism ideology, apologized and paid compensations to every victim of Nazi regime.
Nowadays Nazi ideology is illegal in Germany and they (except some nutjobs) do not celebrate Nazi "victories" and "achievements". 
Russia on the other hand refuses to abandon Soviet legacy, Communist party is not illegal, communist war criminals are not prosecuted - former KGB operative was your president LOL - In Latvia former KGB operatives are not allowed to run for electable office till the end of their lives - (Russia protested when Latvia prosecuted Vassili Kononov (I'm glad that this bastard, who burned pregnant woman alive, is finally dead, hope he rots in hell  :: . They also do not want to extradite Mikhail Golovatov who is responsible for 13.01.1991. massacre in Vilnius.).
They still celebrate Brezhnev's "Victory day" - even Staļin himself did not celebrate anything - because even he apparently thought that there is nothing to celebrate for.  

> These "partizans" were the ones who served in Hitler's army and were afraid of rightful punishment for their crimes.

 Soviet propaganda likes to repeat that. The truth is that partisans fought against *BOTH* invaders.
These who joined Nazis after communist atrocities in 1940 - can't really blame them - if my family was killed and/or deported to Siberia i would have joined Wehrmacht too to avenge them. 

> and were afraid of rightful punishment for their crimes.

 No one in Latvian Legion was prosecuted for war crimes.
Arajs Kommando of course is completely different matter, but no one except nutjobs celebrate his crimes now.  

> Destruction, yeah.

 I killed your family, but I built you a house - be grateful....

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## Hanna

It seems to have become a national hobby in the Baltic states to talk about this.
Why don't you let the past be the past and look to the future? Latvia and Estonia have a got a lot going for them, and some of those things are actually due to the USSR times. (I won't make the mistake of including Lithuania again because I don't know a lot about that).  
I have never discussed it with Latvians and Lithuanians before (except now) but Estonians are always talking about it. 
Several times I've heard Finnish and Swedish people tell them to just shut up. That is perhaps insensitive, but lots of Finnish and Swedish people went to Estonia in the Soviet times (my dad for example) and things looked fine. Plus everyone has heard the complaints so many times.  
Estonian SSR was only marginally worse off than Finland (and it's always been that way, so that was nothing new for the USSR era) before the 1980s, and in Estonia everyone had a job during the Soviet years, in contrast to Finland which had horrible unemployment and quite bad poverty, causing almost a million to emigrate. Estonians were able to go to Finland on holiday during this time. If it was so terrible, they could have stayed, but practically nobody did.  
The problems with the USSR are already well known and for the Baltic states, most of the bad things happened in the 1940s and early 50s, and after the death of Stalin, things calmed down. Some good things DID come out of the Soviet years - for example lots of good public buildings and structures, and high level of education.  
Scandinavia for example was full of goodwill and wanted to help in the 1990s. Also the EU. But there was so much criminality coming from there and it was like "we just want aid and compensation and compassion, but we are going to steal your cars and rob your houses".   
The Nazis did not build schools and hospitals in the countries they invaded! It's a different situation. 
Remember that the Soviets / Russians thought that they were doing the right thing towards the Baltics. Liberating etc. They thought they were helping working class people and would build communism etc, etc. Good goals, as far as they were concerned. And the Baltic states were not rich countries before the Soviet era. A lot of people might have got better lives as USSR citizens than they otherwise would have had. 
And yes, everyone already knows that this came at a wrong/immoral price of some being deported and that religion was wrongly supressed etc.  
Also, all the Soviet SSRs were run by local people in practically all important places, weren't they? It was not like Russians from Moscow came in and took over the country. Lots of local people joined the communist party and generally participated in the socialist state.  
Perhaps it's more convenient to just say "it's all the Russians fault" than admit that a majority probably (I don't know, but I'd guess) went along or actively participated in USSR life. Either because they were cynics or because they genuinely saw that some good things came out of it, or believed in the ideals. 
My point is: You are in the EU, you are in Nato, you've got your independence with practically no bloodshed. Things could be a lot worse: The USSR had already educated people very well, looked after their health and got them a job and somewhere to live. Despite this, everybody sympathisizes with what the Baltic states went through. 
But now it's time to look to the future!

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## Eric C.

As far as I understand, no one from Baltic states cares to recall those events and constantly talk about them. It's just when they're told they should give some other languages besides their only ones the official status, they simply explain why that can't be done.

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## nulle

> Also, all the Soviet SSRs were run by local people in practically all  important places, weren't they? It was not like Russians from Moscow  came in and took over the country. Lots of local people joined the  communist party and generally participated in the socialist state.

 Actually it was - if someone wanted to do something that Moscow disapproved, they immediately sent tanks inside.
Google "Prague Spring" or "Budapest 1956" and these countries weren't even part of Soviet Union.  

> "it's all the Russians fault"

 I do not blame Russians, I blame communists and their defective by design ideology.  

> Why don't you let the past be the past and look to the future?

 Because as I said - Russia does not want to abandon and deal with its past  - it is constantly glorifying it - just like in Soviet times.
If Russia's official propaganda constantly says that USSR liberated us - what should we do - simply agree with them? 
Do you think that Lithuania should simply forgive bastards like Golovatov and let him walk free after what he did?  

> Estonians were able to go to Finland on holiday during this time.

 All "holidayer" groups were infiltrated by KGB agents that watched after any potential "stayers".

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## CoffeeCup

The constant talking about exiling to Siberia amuses me a lot. Living here all my life I can say that there is a good bunch of Jewish names around here as well as a good bunch of German names (it is possible that they are the descendants of WWII captives) though these days these people are native Russians and only their surnames provides an idea of their origins. But during all my life *I hardly ever met a person with a Baltic type of surname*. Taking in to account that according to our Baltic guests every Baltic state lost about 300 000 which were exiled to Siberia I had to be occupied by Baltic people here.

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## nulle

Not everyone stayed there - some died en route, some died in camps, and some (like my grandparents) returned home after Stalin's death.

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## Hanna

> I do not blame Russians

 Ok, that's a good thing because nobody here is responsible for it and they probably feel bad that the USSR time is so disliked in the Baltic states.  
Since most people on the forum are Russians and all this is already known to them, perhaps we should just leave the topic.  *
Nobody here has defended Stalin's idea to incorporate the Baltic states or deport civilians.*  
Personally I like Russian culture and I think that Russian people are among the nicest and most sincere & fun Europeans. It's a pity that all the USSR legacy is preventing many people from seeing what is really a beautiful and interesting country with fundamentally friendly and fun people.  
Perhaps you should get yourself a visa and check it out Nulle? Just go against the stream a bit. That doesn't mean that you agree with anything that Stalin did etc - just that look to the future and not the past. Btw, being trilingual with Latvian, Russian and English is very impressive in the eyes of most people. After all, Russian is a language spoken by over 200 million people. 
Or go to Belarus or Ukraine (don't need a visa for Ukraine).

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## mergike

> Destruction, yeah.  
> Human development index counts most of all education and most of your adult population got one, at least partially, in so awful Soviet times.

 
You know I’m studying Political science at Vytautas Magnus university, which before occupation was called University of Lithuania. However, when Russians occupied Lithuania this university like many other universities and was simply closed and a warehouse was mare of it. (They also made warehouses of churches in Lithuania, I guess it was one of their favorite activities, even Vilnius Arkikatedra kad to become a warehouse in soviet times http://www.vestuviugidas.lt/images/c...34_image_5.jpg  ) So, if you are thinking that by closing Lithuanian universities and schools you helped to improve education then think again because one more time you are talking nonsences.
 Or maybe we should remember how their forced Lithuanians to become a pioneers and join communist party because otherwise they weren’t allowed to study at any university at all. And By the way even if you finished such university no one allowed you to stay in Lithuania but told to go and work inside of Russia.  So what country’s education they tried to improve??
This is how USSR tried to ‘’improve’’ education in Lithuania. At least it’s what they did there.

----------


## mergike

> Russia on the other hand refuses to abandon Soviet legacy, Communist party is not illegal, communist war criminals are not prosecuted - former KGB operative was your president LOL - In Latvia former KGB operatives are not allowed to run for electable office till the end of their lives - (Russia protested when Latvia prosecuted Vassili Kononov (I'm glad that this bastard, who burned pregnant woman alive, is finally dead, hope he rots in hell . They also do not want to extradite Mikhail Golovatov who is responsible for 13.01.1991. massacre in Vilnius.).
> They still celebrate Brezhnev's "Victory day" - even Staļin himself did not celebrate anything - because even he apparently thought that there is nothing to celebrate for.

 Yes, Nulle all you said is complete truth and the fact that Austria few days ago let Michail Golovatov come back to Russia and now he is sitting on his couch somewhere in Moscow really discredits EU cooperation…  This way, Austria just simply betrayed values of EU. And Lithuania is going to do everything so that next time when Golovatov will be flying to the hills to calm down his conscience for the massacres he made, he would get what he deserved. Lithuanians look at him the same way Americans looked at Osama bin Laden and one day he still will have to pay for everything he did to Lithuania.

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## mergike

> Well, as I wrote above, if you don't like the price, buy gas somethere else.

 Well it's no surprise that you couln't deny that Lithuania is paying a political price. It's just obvious isn't it? ::

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## Hanna

Mergike; I don't know anything about Mikhail Golovatov but if anything, the EU is usually partial AGAINST Russia, so whatever he did can't be a big outrage, or he would have found himself in the Hague answering for whatever he did.  
If we are talking about EU values, and being completely true to them - then the Baltic states MUST respect the language situation of the Russian speakers more than they do at the moment. It is such a basic thing in the EU that the situation in the Balticsa is really hard to grasp when you are used to constantly seeing countries going to almost ridiculous rights to respect their language minorities. 
Whereas the Baltic states is almost doing the opposite - not to mention the issue of citizenship.

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## nulle

> It's a pity that all the USSR legacy is preventing many people from  seeing what is really a beautiful and interesting country with  fundamentally friendly and fun people.

 In my posts I was referring to Russian state official policy - not Russian people.
And this policy apparently is to protect criminals.  

> so whatever he did can't be a big outrage

 Yeah - murder of 14 people is nothing special...
Austrians arrested him, because there was issued an arrest warrant.
Lithuanians were asking Austria to extradite him, but they cowardly let him free.
Baltic states already have started to "make noise" about this. 
Things like these simply can't be forgotten.   

> this university like many other universities and was simply closed and a warehouse was mare of it

 What else you can do to an university after all teachers/lecturers etc. have been deported?  ::

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## mergike

> Mergike; I don't know anything about Mikhail Golovatov but if anything, the EU is usually partial AGAINST Russia, so whatever he did can't be a big outrage, or he would have found himself in the Hague answering for whatever he did.  
> If we are talking about EU values, and being completely true to them - then the Baltic states MUST respect the language situation of the Russian speakers more than they do at the moment. It is such a basic thing in the EU that the situation in the Balticsa is really hard to grasp when you are used to constantly seeing countries going to almost ridiculous rights to respect their language minorities. 
> Whereas the Baltic states is almost doing the opposite - not to mention the issue of citizenship.

 
Baltic states paid low price for their independence??? If you really think that *it‘s a low price when when soviet tanks are crushing alive unarmed Lithuanians* who are making a peacefull demonstration  *and everything seems just really normal to you* then maybe:
A)	You do not have heart in your chest.
B)	You are not able to understand what are you talking. So which is the right answer?
And just for your info:   As Nulle said before Michail Golovatov is responsible for this massacre in 1991 01 13 (at least try to read what nulle is writting) when soviet tanks crushed unarmed peacefull Lithuanians.  Of course, he wasn‘t the only one who made all this. The other ones who took part in this even‘t and killed Lithuanians are hiding in Russia and Russia aren‘t extraaditing these criminals. Anyway, if you haven‘t already heard about this event , soon you will hear about it. And don‘t worry  even though now he escaped and didn‘t get what he deserved next time everything will not end so well for Golovatov.
Furthermore, stop talking about these discriminations against Russians. I said that there is no discrimination against them and if you think differently then give a proof. But the truth is that you simply do not have such thing, right? So, I‘m again telling you again to stop talking such nonsences. 
By the way, if you want to complain and try to convince everyone that it‘s very bad for Russians to live in Latvia then go and make your posts in the thread about this topic. This thread isn‘t about Russian minorities, is it clear?

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## mergike

> What else you can do to an university after all teachers/lecturers etc. have been deported?

 Just to close it, it was the only one thing what left for Russians to do  ::  and they liked it so much.

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## nulle

January Events (Lithuania) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Hanna - maybe do some research first...

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## Юрка

СССР распался наверное потому что:
1) Бездарные реформы привели к экономическому кризису. А в кризис коллективы распадаются и каждый спасается сам.
2) Элиты почувствовали, что они могут получить выгоду от самостоятельности.
3) Союз никто не держал силой. В сознании людей сидел лозунг о праве наций на самоопределение, поэтому протестов не было.  

> Lithuania also was a part of Soviet union back then and I (being a Lithuanian myself) think that most of Lithuanians now are really very happy that such a union do not exist now anymore.

 Читал на одном чеченском сайте (жаль, что его закрыли за экстремизм) прямо противоположное мнение одной литовки. Вот бы вас свети заочно вместе.  ::  Она там очень убедительно выступила.

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## mergike

> Читал на одном чеченском сайте (жаль, что его закрыли за экстремизм) прямо противоположное мнение одной литовки. Вот бы вас свети заочно вместе.  Она там очень убедительно выступила.

 
I don‘t care what you‘ve read. Is it such your ‘‘proof‘‘ to counter our arguments?  ::  Bad try  ::  I said what MOST of Lithuanians think about this topic, and if you don‘t believe it then come to my country and ask whatever Lithuanian if he/she liked occupation and all these 50 years of repressions or what they think about 1991 01 13 events. I think that the answer will be clear to you  ::  
PS. I understand how much you can‘t stand that we come here and tell all these facts. Anyway, everything we said is complete truth - this is why anyone couldn‘t deny it  ::

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## Basil77

What truth you've told? About commander of KGB "Alpha" group who defended the constitution of his country against criminal rioters who occupied TV tower and followed his military oath? I consider him a man who should be respected at least and your miserable court have no jurisdiction to juge him. About old partizan hero who fought nazis and punished some nazi helpers who betrayed his comrades to Gestapo (they were tortured to death and there were women and children among them)? There was a war going on and he is still a hero in my opinion and your buffon court showed it's true sympathy to nazis once again in this case. Balts who show such attitude just prove that your tiny republics still have a long road ahead to overcome inferiority complex and gain the right to call yourself civilized and grown-up nations. Have a nice day.

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## nulle

> About old partizan hero who fought nazis and punished some nazi helpers

 This unborn baby was a fucking nazi collaborator - Kononov did a very good job neutralizing him.  

> There was a war going

 Of course there was, but I think that there is a difference between battle-hardened Gestapo soldiers and unborn babies - or maybe they are so hard to tell apart? 
There were THREE sides in Latvia during WW2 - not two like soviet propaganda tells us.
1. Latvians
2. Nazis
3. Communists
And being AGAINST communism does not mean that we supported nazis. Hell - they killed 100 000 of our citizens.  

> and your buffon court showed it's true sympathy to nazis once again in this case

 Kononov's case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights and they did not object too - so maybe try to research some facts.
And if you think that Latvia can influence it's decisions - you are overestimating our powers big time  :: .

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## Eric C.

> What truth you've told? About commander of KGB "Alpha" group who defended the constitution of his country and followed his military oath? I consider him a man who should be respected at least and your miserable court have no jurisdiction to juge him.

 The problem is he was defending that constitution where it had no power anymore. The main mistake the Soviets then made was they too late realized they should just let it go. 
My second point here is no political issues/ambitions are worth a single human life. If what that man did led to deaths of 14 civilians, he's an ordinary criminal and should be prosecuted not only in Lithuania but in any country that respects international laws. 
And last, but not least, reducing to personal insults hardly makes your arguments more convincing...

----------


## Юрка

> occupation and all these 50 years of repressions or what they think about 1991 01 13 events

 Главное, чтобы вы там (западнее РФ) стали наконец счастливы. Но пока из Украины и Прибалтики я слышу не смех и веселье, а стоны в садо-мазо стиле от ковыряний в своих ранках и царапинках (которым 70-80 лет). То есть сами делаете антирекламу своему суверенитету.

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## BappaBa

> occupation

 Никакой оккупации не было, и твои предки имели такие же права, как и любой житель СССР.
null-ю сказки рассказывай, он из поколения пепси.

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## Eric C.

> Главное, чтобы вы там (западнее РФ) стали наконец счастливы. Но пока из Украины и Прибалтики я слышу не смех и веселье, а стоны в садо-мазо стиле от ковыряний в своих ранках и царапинках (которым 70-80 лет). То есть сами делаете антирекламу своему суверенитету.

 It's pretty significant that you left out Belarus...

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## Eric C.

> Никакой оккупации не было, и твои предки имели такие же права, как и любой житель СССР.
> null-ю сказки рассказывай, он из поколения пепси.

 What if they wanted to have more rights than average Soviet citizens which would've been possible if they hadn't been annexed to the USSR?

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## Eric C.

> Ты уточни, кому именно важно, чтобы мы ушли из Беларуси?
> - западу?
> - оппозиции?
> И что значит "ушли"?
> - перестали покупать белорусские товары? 
> - перестали поставлять свои товары?
> - вывели капиталы?
> - вывели прессу?

 I meant you'd missed Belarus in your list of "moaning about their wounds"...

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## nulle

Requests to extradite criminals are not "moaning about wounds".

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## BappaBa

> What if they wanted to have more rights than average Soviet citizens which would've been possible if they hadn't been annexed to the USSR?

 Здесь ты прав, СССР не давал прав на сегрегацию, апартеид и т.п.

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## nulle

> СССР не давал прав на сегрегацию

 That's Right - Latvia should end this segregation and close ALL russian schools immediately  ::

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## Hanna

> That's Right - Latvia should end this segregation and close ALL russian schools immediately

 Maybe instead, the EU should tell Latvia & co to follow the rules on how to treat minorities, or no more development funds!
Btw - all that money being spent on developing the Baltic states is nothing less than (oh horror!) Socialism! 
Taking money from the richer parts and redistributing to parts that need it right now.  
Personally I think it is good, but I would like to see the countries that benefit from this EU principle also adhering to directives such as provisioning for language minorities and granting citizenship to those born in the country! As all other civilised European countries do.  
 When the Baltics don't do this, then I don't want my tax money spent on fixing up their churches and roads and what-have-you. If you are going to reap the econonomic benefits, you should respect the social principles.  
And the whole point for christ's sake is to NOT bang on about who's done what wrong! All European countries have behaved like pigs at one point or another. If that was a reason for mistreating people, then we might as well nuke the whole continent right away.  
If the UK, Spain, Finland, France, Italy and many more can manage to treat language minorities ok then why can't the Baltics? How can it be OK to discriminate a small child or a pensioner because you think the Stalin took the wrong decision in the 1940s, or because you have a low opinion about Putin? I think it's pathetic and very un-European.

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## Basil77

Sources: Demographics of Latvia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Demographics of Estonia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Demographics of Lithuania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## nulle

Yes Basil77, but look a bit further -  File:Ethnic groups in Latvia.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And you will see that number of ethnic Latvians was +/- constant all the time (but is slowly decreasing now).
Ethnic Russian population on the other hand decreased a lot faster.
And rapid increase of Russian population in Soviet times was because Moscow sent immigrants here - and their inflow stopped after USSR dissolution.
And as you can see a lot of them went back to USSR after that.  
The same with Estonia - ethnic Estonian population did not change much - Russian population decreased there.
And the same with Lithuania.
In all Baltic states, after occupation ended, percentage of "main" ethnicity grew, but Russian population decreased.
And we view that as a good sign.  
Latvian population decreased in 90s because it was a period of crisis and uncertainty and people chose to have less children.
Russia's population chart is similar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Po..._of_Russia.PNG

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## Seraph

What is happening in Latvia?
. Neoliberalism, the development of underdevelopment, and the Latvian disease | Bersizns | Spectrum Journal of Global Studies
.

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## Hanna

> What is happening in Latvia?
> . Neoliberalism, the development of underdevelopment, and the Latvian disease | Bersizns | Spectrum Journal of Global Studies
> .

 (note - the site requires login) 
Well, if they want neo-liberalism, it's certainly their right as an independent country, to have it.
Basically, they wanted the exact opposite to Soviet socialism, and they got it, almost overnight and there have been some ups and downs since then. Whether this was great or not is for the Latvians to say.  
But it seems that the result at the moment is an extremely high level of unemployment. Many streets are not in a good shape at all and many buildings are literally falling apart. Some schools and public buildings are quite well fixed up though. But I have never seen so much graffiti in my life.There is graffiti on all empty surfaces.
 If you compare with how things LOOK, then Belarus looked a lot better. I can't say whether Latvia's economy is strong and has potential or whether it's living off borrowed money, subsidies and foreign investment. For the sake of the Latvians I hope it's the former.  
It's a pity because it's a really nice little country with a very cool geographical location and a well educated and bilingual population. Perfect location for being an East-West gateway. It's got lots of cool and interesting architecture and it's one of the few places in Europe where all three main branches of Christianity exist together in harmony.  
Prices are almost the same as elsewhere in the EU but peoples salaries are much lower. 
I can only imagine that it's quite hard for most people to afford the things they would like to buy on the salaries that they have.

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## Eric C.

> What is happening in Latvia?
> . Neoliberalism, the development of underdevelopment, and the Latvian disease | Bersizns | Spectrum Journal of Global Studies
> .

 Well, some people try manipulating other people's minds with such "smart" articles. I believe this is what's happening.

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## Seraph

I see the link does not allow everyone who wants to read the article, access not allowed.  Here is a different article link.  .World Economic Crisis: Latvia痴 Neoliberal Madness
.
.Picture is not clear to outside people, because of differing perspectives, from people like Hanna, and Eric.  How can we get the real picture?

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## nulle

> Prices are almost the same as elsewhere in the EU but peoples salaries are much lower.

 Look at Greece - their salaries are higher - and look where such policies got them.
Actually so-called crisis was a good thing - most of population learned a lesson that you cannot live off borrowed money forever - Greeks learned this in a harder way now.
I, for example, live a lot better than during pre-crisis or so-called "fat years" - when credits were easy accessible, real-estate bubble was getting bigger and salaries also were higher.
People at that time "lost their minds" over easy accessible cash  ::  - for example, low skilled construction workers took credits to buy cars like Porsche Cayenne or BMW X5, because salaries were really overinflated in construction sector at that time. 
It's no surprise that such situation did not last long - real estate bubble burst - prices fell, most of construction companies went out of business and banks took these BMWs back  :: .
So you see that this fall of GDP was not really a fall, but more like return to normal situation.
Now GDP is growing again, but more slowly, and this time there is no bubble.

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## Basil77

> If you compare with how things LOOK, then Belarus looked a lot better.

 I guess you see it right as it is:    Comparing Belarus to Latvia.

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## nulle

So if you are low skilled worker (and took unpayable credit during "fat years" for bonus points  :: ) then your life could be really hard now.
But if you did not take any bad credits (or took credits and invested them in a good non-bubble business) and/or you are educated/skilled specialist in your field you can live quite well - maybe not as good as in the Western EU...
I mainly speak out of my experience in IT field - no one of programmers I know is unemployed.

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## Eric C.

> I guess you see it right as it is:    Comparing Belarus to Latvia.

 ...have 0 times more chance of being detained and then put in jail for 15 days for clapping your hands on the street
...have 0 times more chance of being detained for screaming out such "terrible anti-state slogans" as "Long live, Latvia" (the initial one is "Long live, Belarus") 
Google "silent protests" (you don't even have to specify the country - just these two words)...  
Not to mention, that resource is in no way to be trusted. I tried comparing the US to Belarus, and it said you'd make 4 times more money in the US than in Belarus. This is such bullsh*t! While in the US you can hardly find incomes less than $30-40 an hour, in Belarus there're loads of people who get paid around $1 an hour or less...

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## Hanna

On Seraph's article: 
I'll read that article properly tomorrow - it's quite interesting. I just skimmed it.  
But yes it's true. These countries have been partly exploited by corporations in Western Europe. Rather shameless. But I think everyone knew this was going to happen as early as 1991-92. 
The point about banks was particularly interesting. Romania was the most extreme example. Every big European bank is there; Raifeissen the best example, their ads were everywhere in Romania. Trying to get people to borrow money they can't really afford in the first place so that they can join in with the consumption hysteria. In reality they don't have the cash - that type of consumption is unrealistic in in Western Europe too.  
In Romania, older people were really disillusioned with what capitalism  had offered so far, and younger people were just totally disillusioned  in general. 
I was given several examples of how Britain for example,  had treated Romania poorly in different ways, and tried to  preach about percieved wrongs in Romania and generally take the moral  high road while ripping off the country. They felt they were the trash can of the EU, literally, in more ways than one and several people even went as far as saying that a lot was better pre 90s (hard to imagine, the Ceaucescu regime seems to have been the worst in Eastern Europe). 
Nevertheless, the Romanians were nice and warm people.  
I could see that the foreign banks were making inroads in Ukraine too, including several Swedish banks. 
Belarus had a lot of banks, but all the names were unfamiliar to me - I assume they were local, or Russian.  
Latvia has all the big Swedish banks represented. It seems they may actually be the main banks in the country. These banks overexposed themselves by trying to lend money in the Baltic States, against insufficient guarantees. They were so keen to quickly get a footing in this untapped market that they basically dropped all normal safety precautions. The Swedish economy actually took a big hit at the same time as Latvia and the state had to go in with money to keep two of the banks afloat. Latvian consumers lose, Swedish tax payers lose but - surprise, surprise - the banks keep on winning and paying out their bonuses to the 'clever' directors who took this leap.  
I think that the Latvians negative stance against Russia is probably costing them a lot of money. For example - if they could chill with the rhetoric against Russia, they could have benefited from being transit countries for gas and oil. And that's just the beginning.    

> I guess you see it right as it is:

 That is really surprising. I actually would have thought that Latvia would do better than Belarus! But the Belarussians are a really cool people. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Lukashenko have done quite a few things right, I think. 
 While I was there, I kept thinking "it just LOOKS great, in reality the state has no money". I thought that the devaluation was a big failure. Be that as it may... The whole country LOOKs rather fixed up and you don't see unemployed people hanging around, or any excessive boozing or antisocial behaviour. They are extremely quality conscious there in terms of education, and keeping everything to a some 'certified' standard. And they certainly know how to clean! 
In Latvia on the other hand, there is a lot of boozing, and no, it's not particularly the Russians that booze. 
That can only be bad for peoples health. 
The Western European lifestyle is much more present here - compared with Belarus. People are cruising around in cars, playing super loud techno music at any hour of the day or night... People have a hard time finding a job. In the hotel where I stayed first, one of the waitresses (a Russian speaker) had a degree from an engineering college in Riga (the course was in Latvian, and she had struggled for a year). The course cost money and she had some kind of debt to pay off. She said she couldn't find a good job and had been unemployed. She was considering moving to Denmark.  
People in Liepaja are healthy, cycling and with a great sun tan and fashionable dress sense. Kids are rollerblading. Along the coast they have made a really good cycling / walking lane so people can commute by bicycle. Very cool it's got multiple lanes.  
@Nulle --- Interesting points and it's good that you know that credit is a bad thing in most situations. Construction workers buying BMWs... hm...!  
And you are in the right sector (same as me), obviously none of the problems will affect you, and if they do you could easily just leave the country..  
I'd like to see Latvia as a strong economy in it's own right, finding a unique niche in the EU and making up with Russia. Neoliberalism leads to the weaker countries being exploited, or even tricked or practically robbed, as happened a bit in Eastern Europe. European subsidies are not the way to go long term either and if I am not mistaken, it puts you in a weaker negotion position. Likewise IMF loans. Latvia as low cost area for textile work or IT outsourcing is probably not the way you want to go in the future.  

> in the US you can hardly find incomes less than $30-40 an hour

 I think all the people working on the US minimum wage of ~7.50 would like to know where to find these jobs 30-40 USD jobs. I think people in the Baltics have a much higher view of the US than it deserves. What did they ever do for you?

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## Basil77

> I tried comparing the US to Belarus, and it said you'd make 4 times more money in the US than in Belarus. This is such bullsh*t! While in the US you can hardly find incomes less than $30-40 an hour, in Belarus there're loads of people who get paid around $1 an hour or less...

  Haven't you heard about purchasing parity? Comparing people's salaries using exchanging course makes no sence. Such researches usually compare amount of standart goods that you can buy where you live on what you earn.

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## Basil77

> And rapid increase of Russian population in Soviet times was because Moscow sent immigrants here - and their inflow stopped after USSR dissolution.
> ...
> Russia's population chart is similar: File:Population of Russia.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Maybe you would care to explain why Russian population chart is similar? Who did send immigrants to Russia during the Soviet times?

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## nulle

> I think that the Latvians negative stance against Russia is probably costing them a lot of money.

 Do you think that we should be prostituting ourselves to Russia?
Lukashenko already tried that - and see where that got him.
He has two options now.
1. Resign and start a democracy in Belarus. That way Belarus can get help from the EU.
Of course situation will be hard - like 90s in the Baltics, but after that - situation will stabilize and maybe someday Belarus will become a normal European country. 
2. Sell Belarus to Russia. And lose all economic power. And probably get ousted by Russia anyway after some time and replaced by more loyal Kremlin's puppet.
Then Belarus will become de-facto autonomous oblast of Russia. 
Too bad that both of those options are bad for Lukashenko  ::  , and only first is good for Belarus in long term.    

> People have a hard time finding a job.

 Yes, outside of Rīga region it can be hard unfortunately - Latvia has become too centralized, but in Rīga - if you are able to do something useful and are not "boozing around"  ::  - you will not be unemployed for long. 
Practically everyone has a relative or a friend that is working abroad. (some of my relatives have emigrated to Ireland, but they are mostly doing shitty jobs - I actually know no one that has a good job there).  

> Construction workers buying BMWs... hm...

 It was a real madness.  :: 
During "fat years" there were sooo many new and expensive cars on roads. Traffic in Rīga was a complete nightmare, because most of city's infrastructure was built during Soviet years and was not suited for such a high congestion.
And when "crisis" started - most of them disappeared practically overnight (I'm exaggerating  :: ) and traffic problems were gone.

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## Seraph

.
.The Spectre Haunting Europe: Debt Defaults, Austerity, and Death of the 鉄ocial Europe Model
.

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## nulle

Skimmed through the last link - what Hudson actually recommends is - to restart "fat years" again - thank you very much.
Not try to not live higher that you can afford (even if it hurts in a short term), but fuck that - let's begin "public investment" -  i.e. pedal-to-the-metal, print money, start double-digit inflation, forget about joining Eurozone, etc...

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## Eric C.

> I think all the people working on the US minimum wage of ~7.50 would like to know where to find these jobs 30-40 USD jobs. I think people in the Baltics have a much higher view of the US than it deserves. What did they ever do for you?

 Yes, I forgot to specify, Americans' incomes. That is not illegal immigrants'. 
PS. That was really interesting to observe my transformation to nulle.  ::

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## Seraph

> Skimmed through the last link - what Hudson actually recommends is - to restart "fat years" again - thank you very much.
> Not try to not live higher that you can afford (even if it hurts in a short term), but fuck that - let's begin "public investment" -  i.e. pedal-to-the-metal, print money, start double-digit inflation, forget about joining Eurozone, etc...

  This is not what Hudson and Sommers recommend.  You have to know what denomination of national/public debts in foreign currency means to your economy, in order to see what he actually recommends.  And you have to know what he is talking about concerning dysfunctional tax policies.     

> Yes, I forgot to specify, Americans' incomes. That is not illegal immigrants'.

  Provide source.  And data collection method.  In American statistical reporting, there are various official methods.  Ones that are based on tax documents, necessarily do not include people who are below reporting thresholds.  In real terms, not only are there a lot of unemployed that cannot find jobs, a lot of people with jobs are just one or two pay checks away from the street.  Official stats are a joke.

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## mergike

> Maybe you would care to explain why Russian population chart is similar? Who did send immigrants to Russia during the Soviet times?

 It‘s because it was strictly forbidden to leave USSR and it’s simply natural that the number of people increased there because Russians were used to have BIG families  ::  and by the way as you know now there are more possibilities to leave this country, this is why number of people in Russia is decreasing  ::  By the way, first of all, try to find out if people were allowed to leave USSR during soviet times and then you won’t have such silly questions…  ::

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## mergike

> I think people in the Baltics have a much higher view of the US than it deserves. What did they ever do for you?

 And you are making mistake again  ::  If you don‘t like USA then it doesn‘t mean that everyone should dislike this country too. By the way, Americans at least aren‘t communists  ::  Personally, I‘ve always thought that USA is just an amazing country compared to Russia, and I think that there is no need to give any kind of proof to support such statement, it‘s just obvious  ::  And Baltic countries also have a view about Russia which this country really deserved, so get used to that idea.  
P.S. It seems so silly when Russians come here and try to prove that USSR has done something good to Baltic countries. Neither you lived in Baltic countries, nor you know what happened there, so stop wasting your time and trying to convince someone with your propaganda…

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## christo_tamarin

> Почему распался Советский Союз?

 По моему, расширять значение этого вопроса нельзя. Дмитрий Куликов пишет о "капиталистической контрреволюции". Но ведь "капиталистическая контрреволюция" могла бы осуществиться и в едином советском государстве. Именно такой сценарий был Западу более выгодным. Распад Советского Союза создал угрозу - советский ядерный арсеналь мог бы выйти из контроля разумных правителей. 
Конечно, возможности удержать Прибалтику не было. Но сохранить союз России и Украины, например, было вполне возможно. 
И так, разпался Советский Союз слчуайно. Так стеклись обстоятельтва. Или, если хотите, по воле Ельцина. 
В результате Августовского путча Горбачев практически лишился власти. Однако он продолжал стоять на верху Советского союза, занимал важный пост, но уже не мог выполнять объязанности. На верху таким образом появился вакуум.  
В той ситуации, чтобы спасти Советский союз от распада, Горбачев должен был сразу уйти в оставку и назначить Ельцина своим заместителем. Ельцин удержал бы Союз. Горбачев, может быть, не сознавал опасности и свой пост не уступал.  
В той ситуации, убедившись, что сам Горбачев не уйдет, Ельцин растрог союз и стал независимым правителем. Меньшего государства, чем могло быть, но все таки очень большого государства.

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## Lampada

_Этому способствовало (случайное/благоприятное) стечение обстоятельств.
Причиной того было неожиданное стечение обстоятельств.
Так сложились обстоятельства.
В силу стечения обстоятельств...
...мог выйти из-под контроля
не осознал/не осознавал опасности.
Расторгнуть, расторжение_ обычно о контракте, договоре _Указы, реформы? Ельцина раскололи, развалили Советский Союз._

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## Eric C.

> Provide source. And data collection method. In American statistical reporting, there are various official methods. Ones that are based on tax documents, necessarily do not include people who are below reporting thresholds. In real terms, not only are there a lot of unemployed that cannot find jobs, a lot of people with jobs are just one or two pay checks away from the street. Official stats are a joke.

 Well, I wouldn't say, of course, it's totally impossible to find incomes less than $30 an hour among the Americans, but I think it's quite rare. You're talking about terrible things, could you at least specify the kind of job those people have? Where the salaries are so incredibly small that people can't even pay for their bills...

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## Hanna

Eric, how exactly do you "know" this? You don't live in the USA. What do you think *waitresses, construction workers, cleaners and low skilled factory workers* in the USA make? It sure ain't no $30... _(note my yankee English!_  :: _)_ I don't know precisely what it is either, but if they were on anywhere near $30 they'd be well ahead of their collegues in the UK.... whereas the reality is the opposite. Low skilled workers in the US are less paid than in the UK, not more. I'd like to see the look on the employer's face if you walked in and asked for a 30 USD/ hour to do a low skilled job.

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## Hanna

On the article that Seraph linked to. I've read it more carefully now. 
It has an agenda: It's anti globalisation. Whereas IMF and all the other institutions whose advice Latvia's been following are pro-globalization.  
It happens to tie in with my political views, so I'd say it's pretty much right on the spot. 
But is it painting a too gloomy picture of Latvia? I have no idea because I don't know how normal people live or whether they really have as much debt as the article suggests.  
Nevertheless, I'd say that the way that Belarus has gone makes more sense _TO ME_. Instead of throwing out everything that the the USSR had built up, as useless, they choose to continue using it and make gradual reforms. As a result, their country is just a tiny bit 'old fashioned'... but everyone's got a job and they haven't sold out the country and all its assets to foreigners. Plus, the country looks very good - clean, no graffiti and renovation completed or in progress pretty much everywhere. You can live very cheaply there so the fact that the income levels are low is not massively relevant unless the person plans a holiday abroad, or buying something like an ipad.   

> Latvia has too little industry, too little agricultural modernization, but over 9 billion lati in private debt – now at risk of being shifted onto the government’s balance sheet, just as has occurred with the U.S. bank bailouts. 
> If this credit had been extended productively to build Latvia’s economy, it would have been acceptable. But it was mostly unproductive, extended to fuel land-price inflation and luxury consumption, reducing Latvia to a state of near debt serfdom.

  

> It was  Western neoliberals who financialized these economies with the “business  friendly reforms” so loudly applauded by the World Bank, Washington and Brussels.    
>  Far  lower levels of corruption obviously are to be desired (but whom else  would the West trust?), but dramatically reducing it would perhaps only  improve matters up to the level of Estonia’s  road into euro-debt peonage. These neighboring Baltic counties likewise  have suffered dramatic unemployment, reduced growth, declining health  standards and emigration, in sharp contrast to Scandinavia and Finland.

   

> And as  matters turned out, every design was the same. The names of individuals  were different, but most were linked to and financed by Washington, the  World Bank and European Union. And sponsored by the West’s financial  institutions, one hardly should be surprised that they came up with a  design in their own financial interest.   
>  It was a  plan that no democratic government in the West could have passed.  Public enterprises were doled out to individuals trusted to sell out  quickly to Western investors and local oligarchs who would move their  money safely offshore into the Western havens.

 I am beginning to wonder.... were these Eastern countries let into the EU so that they could be ripped off by businesses in Western Europe...? and so that their citizens can go to Germany, the UK etc and do crappy jobs that can't be filled by local people. So in the USSR built factories, schools and military bases..... The EU and USA are screwing the Balts for money. 
If I was Baltic I'd be pretty confused and fed up with the situation. They've been taken for a ride...

----------


## Seraph

> Well, I wouldn't say, of course, it's totally impossible to find incomes less than $30 an hour among the Americans, but I think it's quite rare. You're talking about terrible things, could you at least specify the kind of job those people have? Where the salaries are so incredibly small that people can't even pay for their bills...

 "44 million Americans on foodstamps". http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...s-incomes.html. "It’s A Cash-Flow Problem": The Ever Broker US Consumer Increasingly Relying On Credit Cards For Daily Staples | zero hedge
.$30/hr?? Under $30/hr is normal.  Those $30-40/hr jobs ain't open.  If you look at government stats, you see lots of people with $30-40/hr jobs.  But there are no openings. The truth is, lots of people really are in difficulty, and have difficulty paying bills.   The reality is, the incomes of ordinary citizens in real terms are dropping, purchasing power keeps dropping. 
.  

> ...It happens to tie in with my political views, so I'd say it's pretty much right on the spot. 
> But is it painting a too gloomy picture of Latvia? I have no idea  because I don't know how normal people live or whether they really have  as much debt as the article suggests. ... I am beginning to wonder....  were these Eastern countries let into the EU so that they could be  ripped off by businesses in Western Europe...? and so that their  citizens can go to Germany, the UK etc and do crappy jobs that can't be  filled by local people. So in the USSR built factories, schools and  military bases..... The EU and USA are screwing the Balts for money.  If  I was Baltic I'd be pretty confused and fed up with the situation.  They've been taken for a ride...

   The IMF/World Bank have a  track record.  40 years of austerity programs.  They all end the same  way.  And now the EU is playing the same game.

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## Hanna

> The IMF/World Bank have a  track record.  40 years of austerity programs.  They all end the same  way.  And now the EU is playing the same game.

 I think that might very well be true. Meanwhile most people in the Baltic States are so busy hating Russia, complaining about the USSR times and idolizing capitalism in all its forms and shapes... that they don't even notice that they are being (essentially) cheated and robbed. And the EU is turning a blind eye to the treatment of the Russian speakers, which would create a huge outrage if it happened to any other group, anywhere else in the EU.
That's my take on it, and I hope for their sake that I am wrong. I would like to see this area prosperous and not indebted and sold off to foreign interests. 
From Wikipedia, about the charming city of Liepaja, which is unfortunately struggling with unemployment:    

> *Economy*
> In the second half of 20th century under Soviet rule Liepāja became  an industrial city and a large number of high technology plants were  founded, including:   
> [list of ~20 factories] 
> After collapse of USSR's centrally planned economy, only a small number of these plants continue to operate.  
> [some info about the port in Liepaja] 
>  After joining European Union  in 2004, most Liepāja companies was faced with strict European rules  and terse competition and was forced to stop production or to sell  enterprises to European companies. In 2007 were closed _Liepājas cukurfabrika_ and _Liepājas sērkociņi_; _Līvu alus_, _Liepājas maiznieks_ and _Lauma_ has been sold to European investors.

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## Ann

> Well, I wouldn't say, of course, it's totally impossible to find incomes less than $30 an hour among the Americans, but I think it's quite rare. You're talking about terrible things, could you at least specify the kind of job those people have? Where the salaries are so incredibly small that people can't even pay for their bills...

 The minimum wage is not a statistical average, it’s a legal limit set by the federal government to ensure that workers (presumably citizens and legal residents) don’t get paid less than that, and $7.50 is an accurate figure in 2011.   
Throughout my college years I worked as a cashier on weekends in a large supermarket chain.  I started at $7 per hour in 1997 and after several raises and promotions, was making $10 per hour in 2001, the year I graduated.  A friend of mine was making about $100 a day waiting tables in a restaurant.  Back then $35,000 is considered a good starting annual salary for a college graduate with a bachelor degree in accounting. This was GROSS income, of course.  About 25% of it went to federal, state and social security tax, so the take-home pay was about $14 an hour.   
Here’s a list of minimum wage in 2011 by state:  List of U.S. minimum wages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
And a list by occupation:  Minimum wage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
As you can see, things have not improved much from 10 years ago for the low-wage earners, except that many of them had to work less hours during the recession.  I honestly don’t know how they can pay their bills (or not).  I can do some research but I’m afraid to.  Their after-tax income might be a little higher than their gross income because of all the tax credits they can claim.  But still, the monthly rent (not including utility, etc) for a small apartment in Atlanta costs at least $700; gasoline is at $4 a gallon now; a loaf of bread with decent amount of nutrient costs $3…

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## nulle

> After collapse of USSR's centrally planned economy, only a small number of these plants continue to operate.

 That's because USSR's production cannot compete with real world.
Even cheapest imported things (like plastic bags and chewing gum  :: ) were almost idolized in Soviet times when people got hands on them.
When Iron curtain fell and imports from west were allowed - suddenly people realized how shitty USSR production was.
And most of factories in Latvia got raw materials from the rest of USSR - after collapse it was not possible/too expensive.
That's why most of USSR time manufacturing died out. 
And Hanna - would you like to move to Belarus? 
People in Latvia do not - if they emigrate - they go to west.

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## Hanna

> And Hanna - would you like to move to Belarus?  People in Latvia do not - if they emigrate - they go to west.

 No, I wouldn't particularly want to live there... it depends completely on the circumstances.. It's not a bad place though. If someone was to offer me a well paid job there, I might consider it, for a short period. But that's not likely to happen.  
But I think that if a person is on a very low salary, then they might be better off in Belarus than in Latvia. I am not certain though, but things are so cheap in Belarus. In Latvia, the prices are more like in the rest of the EU. Rents etc are very low in Belarus too. So if you had.... say 800 USD per month.... You'd get a much better standard of living for that in Belarus, than in Latvia. 
 In Belarus I met quite a lot of people who said that they knew somebody or had a relative who was living in Sweden. I was really surprised to hear that. I have never met a Belarussian in Sweden (I have been living abroad though). It seems Sweden is one of the top places that Belarussians would like to emigrate to. One Belarussian woman who worked at the Swedish embassy was running a Swedish course (such a small language, surprising anyone wants to learn it!). She had almost 50 people in her course!  Sadly (for Belarus) it's the smartest and most hard working people who leave. I suspect it might be the same in Latvia.  
My main point about Belarus is that the situation there is completely misrepresented in Western European media. Although it has some problems, it's not half as bad as you'd think after reading an average European paper.

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## nulle

> I have never met a Belarussian in Sweden

 Possibly because they learn Swedish and do not ask Belarussian to be official language, like some Russians here in Latvia.
It's amazing actually - one day someone asked me directions in Russian - how to get to the bus - I answered him in Latvian - he did not understand ANYTHING.
How the hell you can live in a country and do not know local language that is spoken by majority?

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## Lampada

> Possibly because they learn Swedish and do not ask Belarussian to be official language, like some Russians here in Latvia.
> It's amazing actually - one day someone asked me directions in Russian - how to get to the bus - I answered him in Latvian - he did not understand ANYTHING.
> How the hell you can live in a country and do not know local language that is spoken by majority?

 Ты уверен, что это был местный?

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## Hanna

> Possibly because they learn Swedish and do not ask Belarussian to be official language, like some Russians here in Latvia.
> It's amazing actually - one day someone asked me directions in Russian - how to get to the bus - I answered him in Latvian - he did not understand ANYTHING.
> How the hell you can live in a country and do not know local language that is spoken by majority?

 He might have been Russian or Belarussian, did you think of that?  Someone told me that it's a real problem for tourists from Russian speaking countries.The Latvians simply respond in Latvian and obviously they don't understand a word. 
He could have asked you first if you spoke Russian. 
On the other hand, you could have tried in Russian or simply said "I don't speak it" 
In Finland there is a group of Swedish speakers who can't really speak Finnish, because they work with other Swedish speakers and socialise with others too. They learn it in school, but like Latvian it's a hard language and since they can get by in Swedish they don't really make the effort. The Finnish people don't really care about this though. It's much more of a problem for the person who can't speak Finnish, than it is for them - they can simply say - "sorry" and walk away. It happens to me occassionally when I go there.  
I agree it's surprising but I think your views on this are completely tangled up with your feelings about the past, about the USSR etc. Personally I think it's really cool that Latvians are bilingual. And it's not like anyone is forcing you to speak Russian against your will. All I am saying is that the state should be bilingual because of the composition of its citizens. Not that anyone should be forced to speak Russian who doesn't want to.

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## Eric C.

> No, I wouldn't particularly want to live there... it depends completely on the circumstances.. It's not a bad place though. If someone was to offer me a well paid job there, I might consider it, for a short period. But that's not likely to happen.  
> But I think that if a person is on a very low salary, then they might be better off in Belarus than in Latvia. I am not certain though, but things are so cheap in Belarus. In Latvia, the prices are more like in the rest of the EU. Rents etc are very low in Belarus too. So if you had.... say 800 USD per month.... You'd get a much better standard of living for that in Belarus, than in Latvia. 
>  In Belarus I met quite a lot of people who said that they knew somebody or had a relative who was living in Sweden. I was really surprised to hear that. I have never met a Belarussian in Sweden (I have been living abroad though). It seems Sweden is one of the top places that Belarussians would like to emigrate to. One Belarussian woman who worked at the Swedish embassy was running a Swedish course (such a small language, surprising anyone wants to learn it!). She had almost 50 people in her course!  Sadly (for Belarus) it's the smartest and most hard working people who leave. I suspect it might be the same in Latvia.  
> My main point about Belarus is that the situation there is completely misrepresented in Western European media. Although it has some problems, it's not half as bad as you'd think after reading an average European paper.

 Do some search on what I wrote in the reply to one of Basil's posts. Over 1500 detained over the last 1.5 months for clapping their hands. Learn how those arrests were done, how some civilians were beaten during them, etc. If it's not enough for you to think something is going wrong there (that is, if you think it's ok), then I just wonder what principles you were taught in your childhood. Some people even compared those events to what took place in Germany in the 1930s... 
Then, your another mistake is you don't take into account that salaries of $800 a month are considered top level incomes there rather than "low salaries".

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## mergike

> Latvian it's a hard language

 Maybe they would like to study Chinese if Latvian seems hard to them  ::

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## nulle

> Ты уверен, что это был местный?

  Im prettty sure - 70% of population in my district are non-Latvians.
And I have NEVER met a russian that asks: "Ты понимаеш по русски?".  

> but like Latvian it's a hard language and since they can get by in Swedish they don't really make the effort.

 Latvian is easier than Russian :P

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## Hanna

> Im prettty sure - 70% of population in my district are non-Latvians.

 Really? So how good is your Russian? Should be on par with your English then? I mean, in that case you hear people speak Russian in real life, every day.
And in that case you have to have lots of Russian friends? Doesn't that make you feel more sympathetic towards their situation? 
Eric, you are off the mark as usual.

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## mergike

> Latvian is easier than Russian :P

 Definitelly, I guess it would be just a fun to study Latvian, so they really can't complain that it's difficult  ::

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## mergike

> Eric, you are off the mark as usual.

  I think that he is really in the mark  ::  don't you like it? ::

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## Lampada

> Im prettty sure - 70% of population in my district are non-Latvians.
> And I have NEVER met a russian that asks: "Ты понимаеш по русски?". 
> Latvian is easier than Russian :P

 Конечно, местный бы не сделал такую большую ошибку, заговорив по-русски. Значит, даже если спрашивающий дорогу приезжий/не местный, ему никто не поможет, если он не знает латвийского? Почему такая неприязнь к ни в чём не повинному человеку?

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## Eric C.

> Конечно, местный бы не сделал такую большую ошибку, заговорив по-русски. Значит, даже если спрашивающий дорогу приезжий/не местный, ему никто не поможет, если он не знает латвийского? Почему такая неприязнь к ни в чём не повинному человеку?

 I think your imagination is taking you too far from what you actually read.

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## Eric C.

> Eric, you are off the mark as usual.

 Thanks, that's what really clarifies the thing. Now I totally get your point. 
PS. During one of those attacks on civilians walking on the street, the deputy head of the Swedish embassy, David Emtestam, was almost detained.  Deputy head of Swedish Embassy detained in Minsk - Euroradio 
But yeah, what could be more off the mark than mentioning such facts, right? How can one ever be dissatisfied with that socialist paradise and their wise authorities? Ehhh..

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## Lampada

> I think your imagination is taking you too far from what you actually read.

 I wish that this somewhat unfair treatment of innocent people were a figment of my imagination.

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## Seraph

> That's because USSR's production cannot compete with real world.
> Even cheapest imported things (like plastic bags and chewing gum ) were almost idolized in Soviet times when people got hands on them.
> When Iron curtain fell and imports from west were allowed - suddenly people realized how shitty USSR production was.
> And most of factories in Latvia got raw materials from the rest of USSR - after collapse it was not possible/too expensive.
> That's why most of USSR time manufacturing died out. 
> And Hanna - would you like to move to Belarus? 
> People in Latvia do not - if they emigrate - they go to west.

   It has nothing to do with the past, the USSR. It has to do with right now. 
Every ongoing productive economy requires money to be spent on maintenance, repairs, replacements, upgrades, etc.  Austerity programs always take money away from these necessary expenditures.  It does not matter what the previous economic system was.  Capitalist, socialist, communist, or any other, it does not matter.   Austerity programs always degrade economic productive capabilities.  When you combine this with ‘aid’ loans that are not in your local currency, the situation is worse.  International finance sees the austerity program, and the aid loans, and they know what it means.  They put pressure on the local currency relative to the loan currency.  This drives the debt servicing costs up in the local currency.  This extracts more money out of the economy, making the austerity worse, leading to less repair, maintenance, upgrading, etc.  And so a bad economic spiral, from worse to worse happens.  Also, the aid loans come with requirements for privatization.   This also compounds the situation, making it worse. 
The problems in the Baltic states now are the responsibility of the leadership there.  Enough time has passed.  It is not from any previous system.  We know this because whenever and wherever economic austerity programs combined with aid loans occur, the local economy declines, and economic dependence is developed to the creditor nation(s).  This is being said from the perspective of capitalism.  If you want to be a capitalist success, then you have to do the things that make capitalism successful.  This is definitely not taking aid loans, and going into austerity programs.  The reality is, the Baltic states are paying tribute to euro-bankers that are plundering the countries.  The euro-bankers will never allow the Baltic states to develop successful economies.  The processes are obvious, because they have been used over and over again.  In this case it is used to favor the traditional central powers of west Europe. 
The powerful economies of the world like in the US, and now in China, do not, and did not take aid loans, and do not go into austerity programs.  If you want to be a capitalist, you have to actually do what capitalists do.  This is not what the Baltics are doing.  They are being client/dependant states of other capitalist states that will never allow the Baltics to develop properly.  It is not the fault of communism from ages past, it is the fault of Baltics leadership right now that have sold out to other euro-zone powers.  Western capitalist powers are saying ‘do as I say, not as I do’.  If you do as they say, you will not succeed.  You have to do what they did to be successful, not what they say to do.

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## Seraph

> Do some search on what I wrote in the reply to one of Basil's posts. Over 1500 detained over the last 1.5 months for clapping their hands. Learn how those arrests were done, how some civilians were beaten during them, etc. If it's not enough for you to think something is going wrong there (that is, if you think it's ok), then I just wonder what principles you were taught in your childhood. Some people even compared those events to what took place in Germany in the 1930s... 
> Then, your another mistake is you don't take into account that salaries of $800 a month are considered top level incomes there rather than "low salaries".

 Look what has happened Canada: .Toronto G-20: Denying Civil Rights is a Crime
.Thousands of G-20 Detentions Illegal: Ontario Ombudsman
.Report from the G20
.These type of events are happening more than you realize, the mainstream news is not telling you everything that is happening in the glorious west.
."Some people even compared those events to what took place in Germany in the 1930s..."

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## Basil77

> Почему такая неприязнь к ни в чём не повинному человеку?

 This thread reminds me a quote:
"Такую личную неприязнь испытываю к потерпевшему, что кушать не могу".  ::

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## Hanna

> Look at Greece - their salaries are higher - and look where such policies got them.
> Actually so-called crisis was a good thing - most of population learned a lesson that you cannot live off borrowed money forever - Greeks learned this in a harder way now.
> I, for example, live a lot better than during pre-crisis or so-called "fat years" - when credits were easy accessible, real-estate bubble was getting bigger and salaries also were higher.

 On this, I agree with you. People and countries should live within their means. I don't know exactly what people's lifestyle is in Latvia but they are not destitute. On the other hand, I see no Ipads, BMW fourwheel drives or expensive designer clothes. That is luxury consumption though, and frankly I am not so sure anyone actually needs any of that.   *In Liepaja, I can see* that there is not a lot of fancy restaurants (or restaurants at all) and many houses are quite run down. People are dressed ok though, they have cars and things like mobile phones and computers. It's about the same as what I saw in Belarus, only there is (in my opinion) more attractive consumer goods on sale in Latvia. That said, I bought some fantastic value specs and stylish linen clothes in Belarus. And they DO have designer shops etc in Minsk. For example MaxMara one of my favourite designers. I can't make up my mind about what I think is better.   *On Belarus being a dictatorship:* 
1) All the signs are that Lukashenko did actually win the elections although it's true that the state more or less controls national media - and this probably worked in Lukashenko's favour - same principle as in Russia. But since they have free internet access and can get TV from other countries, those who are interested can easily get the other side of the story. Perhaps there was some cheating on the counting, perhaps not. But it seems the majority wants the stability of keeping Lukashenko for the time being. 
2) I met plenty of people in BY who said that on the whole, Lukashenko was OK and doing the best he could. I met two women who were quite passionate Lukashenko supporters, not to mention a guy I met at the sanatorium "Belaya Rus". Also, I believe that it' a sign of "better the devil you know" - they are scared of a chaotic revolution and the misery associated with dismantling socialism.  I totally respect what they have done. If you went there you'd be surprised. It actually looks better than Latvia, although less good shops. However, *I think that Belarus should allow full supervision of the elections by EU and Russian observers next time.* 
Yes, there are a few people clapping hands and protesting etc. Basically mostly in Minsk, people who are West oriented, hate the government for some specific reason, or would gain financially from a change in the situation. I respect their position and I understand where they are coming from. But I don't actually think they are the majority. Not YET, I should say, perhaps, but who knows?  
But what is not reported is that they have a massive pro-government youth movement (voluntary) that is really enthusiastic, most people are a state employees, so they hardly want to bring down the state having seen how that worked out in Russia. ETC!  
Being in Latvia has also opened up my eyes for what Swedish (Scandinavian) companies have done in the Baltics and the massive influence in general. I wonder what Baltic people think about it. To some degree the big invasion of Scandi companies must have stifled LOCAL initiatives. Not to mention that the profits leave the country.  
The whole country very much has a superficial likeness to Scandinavia. The Narvessen shops and similar, the Swedish banks, and little touches like plenty of cycle lanes everywhere. I LOVE that Latvia is using so much wind power. Big thumbs up for that. But Scandinavians would never treat the Russian speakers the way the Baltics do - not in a million years.   _There is a Swedish company that I particularly dislike that seems to have really infiltrated both Belarus and Latvia: Oriflame. I saw lots of Oriflame (makeup) vendors even in Belarus. This company is a scam - they trick people into buying their products to resell and hence make money. But in reality nobody makes money that way, only Oriflame themselves. Most people in Sweden already know that, so I suppose they needed to find some other area to scam. 
 If you hear of anyone thinking to start using that, talk them out of it!_   *
@Basil77* - I really enjoyed that country comparison site! Thanks for posting the link. 
I respect you sticking up for Russia in this thread! Personally I think the Balts need to move on, regardless of who was right or wrong in the 1940s and 1990s (it's complex and there are basically two sides of the story and perhaps no completely objective truth). 
Mimino is one of my fave old Russian films. I think it has a rather deep message, really and it's funny with its bizarre serendipity.

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## Eric C.

> Yes, there are a few people clapping hands and protesting etc. Basically mostly in Minsk, people who are West oriented, hate the government for some specific reason, or would gain financially from a change in the situation. I respect their position and I understand where they are coming from. But I don't actually think they are the majority. Not YET, I should say, perhaps, but who knows?

 What do you think of those arrests? That looked like people didn't have rights to walk wherever they wished. Everyone who was there was at the risk of being attacked and arrested. You'd been so lucky to leave that country before the attacks started taking place...

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## nulle

Yeah - Hanna - would you like that in Sweden police arrest you simply for going down the street?  

> On the other hand, I see no Ipads, BMW fourwheel drives or expensive designer clothes.

 You should have visited Latvia in 2006 or 2007  ::  

> But Scandinavians would never treat the Russian speakers the way the Baltics do - not in a million years.

 poor oppressed russian speakers  ::  &#x202a;9. maija konfrontācija Uzvaras laukumā, Rīgā&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube
If they are singing that Russia is their fatherland - why they are still here?  

> It has nothing to do with the past, the USSR. It has to do with right now.

 My post was about - why USSR manufacturing died out in 90s.
I completely agree with you that 2009 crisis was not USSR fault.  

> The powerful economies of the world like in the US, and now in China, do  not, and did not take aid loans, and do not go into austerity programs

 But now United States have an insane national debt that is getting bigger by 20k $/second http://usdebtclock.org/
Sooner or later they will need to do something about it...

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## Hanna

> What do you think of those arrests? That looked like people didn't have rights to walk wherever they wished. Everyone who was there was at the risk of being attacked and arrested. You'd been so lucky to leave that country before the attacks started taking place...

 No, I was there while it was happening, only, I noticed NOTHING. 
And certainly, the police paid no attention whatsoever to me, even when I (absentmindedly) crossed the street when the red man was showing. That is actually illegal in Belarus. But they didn't do anything. I passed by the main square (Independence) when some people had congregated there. The police were there, but they weren't doing anything.  
I am sure that there ARE people that are being poorly treated in Belarus. But it's not directed at people who don't stick their neck out. 
If you want a comparison, consider the university fee riots in London, where lots of people were arrested and beaten up, and anti-globalisation protests were a man was killed by police last year and many arrested. There is not A LOT of difference.  
What irritates me the most is that you pretend to be some kind of Belarus expert when in reality you haven't been there and had completely incorrect information when you first commented on it. If a Belarussian comments I would respect his views whatever they were. But you are just mindlessly repeating what you have read on Radio Liberty or whatever...

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## Hanna

> Yeah - Hanna - would you like that in Sweden police arrest you simply for going down the street? 
> But now United States have an insane national debt that is getting bigger by 20k $/second U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
> Sooner or later they will need to do something about it...

 See above for my comments on police in Belarus. 
The papers and people with an agenda blow up the situation in Belarus much more than it deserves. 
There is no real nasty regime in Europe, so it gets interesting to blow up "the last dictatorship in Europe" to something that it isn't. 
Guide books and similar make a big issue out of it being like the USSR - that is absolute tosh. The USSR must surely have been 10 times more controlling of its citizens, visitors and media than Belarus is. You hardly even notice anything like that going on at all. The only similarity is that they haven't taken down the old monuments, factories etc. It's a modern country, more or less. It's not that different from Ukraine really. 
If we really want to "help" the Belarussians, the thing to do, in my opinion, would to help to MAKE SURE that the next election there is fair and square in its execution. Independent foreign observers present during the voting and during the counts. Both from the EU and Russia. Russia has a lot of influence there and could probably get agreement for that from Belarus. If Lukashenko has nothing to hide, and doesn't have to pay for it, then there shouldn't be a problem agreeing to it. If he refuses, then it is rather suspect.  
On the USAs debt -- yes... surely this must be the beginning of the end of American empire. I am not a fan of USA foreign policy whatsoever. 
Just hope that whatever replaces it won't be worse. Perhaps there'll just be a split / power vacuum. China hasn't really been flexing its muscles yet, and the EU is too split at the moment to try. First thing I'd like to see, is the USA pack up its bases and leave Europe. If the EU needs defence we should take care of it ourselves, together. France and the UK have nukes, that's more than enough.

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## Seraph

> ...On the USAs debt -- yes... surely this must be the beginning of the end of American empire. ...

  

> 

   "I will tell you a little thing, only don't get angry..." 
Finance at the national and international level is completely different than at the personal level.  Various politicians and economists have been pulling the wool over the eyes of people about this for a long time.  They are using something called a fault of composition. .ERRORS OF LOGIC . 
Quote-
"5.    Division and Composition: Division attributes the  properties of the whole among the parts or members. It’s opposite,  composition, tries to compose the whole out of the properties or  qualities possessed by each of its parts."       "How can we love our country and not love our countrymen?"
     "It is not going to help the energy crisis to have more people ride buses instead of cars. Buses use more gas than cars."
     "Each manufacturer is perfectly free to set his own price on the  product he produces. So there can be nothing wrong with all  manufacturers getting together to fix the prices of the articles made by  all of them." "  
...In the case of finance, the finances of the nation are not simply composed of the finances of the individuals, corporations etc, and do not have the properties of the finances of the individuals/citizens/corporations of the nation.  Politicians try to fool people into projection, that the finances of the nation are comprehensible to ordinary citizens in the same way that they comprehend their own personal finances. 
Adam Smith said the debts of a super power never get paid.  Nothing will happen.  Try and collect.  All the confusion about the debt ceiling in the US is just political theater.  Politicians are trying to crush labor and un-tax the rich.  To be sure, real pain will be put on the people at the bottom, but it is completely unnecessary.  To the nation itself, and the rich and middle classes, it isn't much of anything at all.  Just a speed bump.

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## Hanna

But then why, according to this theory, does China lend money to he USA? Is it some kind of vicious circle where they have to keep propping it up because the alternative is even worse...?  I mean, why else lend to someone who isn't going to pay back? I am sure they have a very good reason for lending that money - they are clearly very shrewd. I've been wondering if the US isn't going to come up with some rhetoric about why their debts to China don't need to be paid... Or what other options do they have?  
During the cold war era, all companies in Sweden wanted to do business with the Eastern bloc, because those countries always paid, straight away, no fuss. My dads company did a lot of such business and he pointed that out many times.
All that  disappeared straight away in the 1990s though and whole businesses fell down because suddenly they no longer got paid, or even ripped off. I think I read somewhere that they also always paid their foreign debts, but did not have much debt. 
I think it's spooky about the US debt though. 
If the dollar just crashes, it would not just affect the Americans but everyone else.

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## Eric C.

> On the USAs debt -- yes... surely this must be the beginning of the end of American empire. I am not a fan of USA foreign policy whatsoever.
> Just hope that whatever replaces it won't be worse. Perhaps there'll just be a split / power vacuum. China hasn't really been flexing its muscles yet, and the EU is too split at the moment to try. First thing I'd like to see, is the USA pack up its bases and leave Europe. If the EU needs defence we should take care of it ourselves, together. France and the UK have nukes, that's more than enough.

 The US aren't actually gonna give this satisfaction to the leftists and commies from around the world. Hanna, could you HONESTLY answer the following question, "how many people in Sweden share your political and economic views?"

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## Hanna

> The US aren't actually gonna give this satisfaction to the leftists and commies from around the world. Hanna, could you HONESTLY answer the following question, "how many people in Sweden share your political and economic views?"

 I could, but I am not answering any questions from you, since you will not even say which country you are from.

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## Eric C.

> No, I was there while it was happening, only, I noticed NOTHING.
> And certainly, the police paid no attention whatsoever to me, even when I (absentmindedly) crossed the street when the red man was showing. That is actually illegal in Belarus. But they didn't do anything. I passed by the main square (Independence) when some people had congregated there. The police were there, but they weren't doing anything.

 Well, from what I know, really aggressive attacks started from 6/22, including that day. Was it when you were there?

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## Eric C.

> If the dollar just crashes, it would not just affect the Americans but everyone else.

 That's true. But also, it won't crash until the US themselves really want it. The dollar stability is kept by almost everyone's belief outside the US.  ::

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## nulle

> the debts of a super power never get paid.  Nothing will happen.  Try and collect

 Superpower can rapidly become a 3rd world country - that happened to USSR.
 USA also are not guaranteed to last forever. 
And US are paying interest on their debt all the time - if they stop - no one will lend them any more.

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## Hanna

It's a really interesting comment Nulle.... something for all countries to remember. 
But I'd have to say that I don't think the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia are third world. 
Maybe for a year or two in the 1990s at the most. But I suppose that depends on what the criteria for being a third world country is.  
@Eric, I was still in Belarus on the 22nd. I didn't find out about the problems until I read about it on the BBC.

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## Seraph

> But then why, according to this theory, does China lend money to he USA? Is it some kind of vicious circle where they have to keep propping it up because the alternative is even worse...?  I mean, why else lend to someone who isn't going to pay back? I am sure they have a very good reason for lending that money - they are clearly very shrewd. I've been wondering if the US isn't going to come up with some rhetoric about why their debts to China don't need to be paid... Or what other options do they have? 
> ...I think it's spooky about the US debt though. If the dollar just crashes, it would not just affect the Americans but everyone else.

   Think about it, the nations of the world are now running fiat currencies, un-backed by gold or anything else.  As a result of the 'financial crisis' the US, EU, China UK etc all had to go into some kind of QE to keep things from unwinding.  All currencies are being inflated in a sort of sloppy but coordinated way.  Thus parity is not in any real danger.  The USD is not dropping out of sight, or crashing.   Why did/does China lend to the US?  Think back to the industrial expansion of China.  China used the demand from US for cheap products to stimulate industrial expansion.  This required that they get on the USD bandwagon.  Once started, it is hard to get off.  China is pushing currency swaps with other nations now, and this will gradually reduce the demand for USD as reserves over time.  Not catastrophically, not drastically.   

> Superpower can rapidly become a 3rd world country - that happened to USSR.
>   USA also are not guaranteed to last forever. 
>  And US are paying interest on their debt all the time - if they stop -  no one will lend them any more.

   The US is rolling debt over.   Not paying it off.  It is the t-bill standard.  In reality the debt is  not being payed, because the central banks that are caught in the loop  cannot do anything with the dollars and t-bills they have except recycle  them with the US treasury.  Central banks that have USD/t-bills cannot  buy anything with them.  The US has no intention of stopping the rolling  over of treasuries.  But it is not really paying off the debts.  Again  this is the 'fault of composition' thing.  You can do something with USD  if you have it, and buy something.  The central banks that have USD  cannot buy anything with them, except exchange them for t-bills and they  can sell/swap USD for other currencies, and they are doing some of that.   But purchase of US assets is forbidden.  Only in special, select cases can anyone  outside of US buy US assets.  Buying consumer goods by individuals is completely different, and allowed.   
"Superpower can rapidly become a 3rd world country - that happened to USSR. USA also are not guaranteed to last forever."  And how is that going to happen?

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## mergike

> But I'd have to say that I don't think the Baltics, Belarus, Ukraine and Russia are third world.

  You said it as if you would be some kind of exception  ::  So, do all people in Sweden think that we are third world? ;D

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## nulle

> In reality the debt is  not being payed

 I said that they pay interest, not debt itself...

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## Hanna

> You said it as if you would be some kind of exception  So, do all people in Sweden think that we are third world? ;D

 What are you talking about? I said that these countries are NOT third world and I have certainly never thought that they were and nobody in Sweden or anywhere else thinks that. Read what I wrote again. And read Nulle's comment before mine - he seems to be saying that the USSR became 3rd world. I don't agree with that.  
It used to be "2nd world", but that expression was never actually used, although the idea was that the European socialist economies were "2nd world". Pretty much everything else in Africa and most of Asia was considered developing countries and/or third world. Perhaps these terms are getting outdated now.  
How to categorise the ex - socialist countries in the 1990s and now (1st, 2nd, 3rd) I really don't know - you are probably better placed to say how you would categorise it.

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## mergike

I seems that this time it‘s me who made a mistake. I‘m sorry for this misunderstanding. 
Anyway I‘m not going to categorise which countries of former Soviet Union could be 1st, 2nd or 3rd world. Of course, Baltics are not already as much advanced as some other west Europe countries, but I still think that we are really far away from third world... &#x202a;Lithuania Presentation [Long Version]&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube 
P.S. this video was made before economical crisis in Lithuania started, this is why it‘s said that Lithuania has been showing steady economical growth for more than 10 years. Of cource, when crisis started there was a fall of GDP in Lithuania and a lot of people lost their jobs but I can‘t agree that in Baltic states there was downright deadly crisis which was more devastating and severe than let‘s say in Greece (as it was said in one of the articles to which Sareph posted a link) And personally I don‘t think that any of Baltic states will face such things what Greece are facing right now.

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## nulle

> he seems to be saying that the USSR became 3rd world. I don't agree with that.

 Baltic states did not - Russia on the other hand...

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## Seraph

> I said that they pay interest, not debt itself...

   Actually, the US can cancel or default on a part of it's debt, without any problems, no interest rate problems, no foreign exchange problems, no problems of any kind.  Every country on the planet can cancel or default on some of their debt.  It is directly related to the ability to have high marginal tax rates for the highest tax brackets.  Look at the picture, from Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For many years, the US had high tax rates for the highest income earners.  It did not harm the economy, nor the rich.  The ability to do this exists in every country.  This is directly connected to the ability to selectively default (or cancel) on some debt, with absolutely no consequences.  Every country can do this. This means that they can also get out of even paying some of the interest.  That is why the debt crisis is completely irrelevant theater.  It is a big yawn.  The rich don't want you to know this, because they use it in politics to crush labor..
.
. 
.But what do we get?  We get... "What we get instead of a responsible and progressive tax policy or  trimming of the defense budget is the steady drumbeat of debt panic,  with loud demands to cut social services, shrink pensions and pay, and,  oddly enough, provide additional tax reductions for the well-to-do. This  debt panic has become the driving argument for a ferocious assault on  workers. Class war is being waged, and sensing victory, the owning class  is taking no prisoners."  from http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=25754
.
.

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## mergike

> Baltic states did not - Russia on the other hand...

 
Yes, that‘s right... a lot of things has changed to the good side in Baltic states during these 20 years of independance and this is why we are really happy that there is no USSR today... 
and if you Hanna say that somewhere in Latvia you see a building which is quite run down and restaurants doesn‘t seem to be fancy enough to you, then try to imagine how Baltic states looked during occupation when we were part of USSR and faced all these repressions... 
And it seems really silly when you are comparing Liepaja and Minsk  ::  maybe you first of all should find out how many times Minsk is bigger than Liepaja....  ::

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## Romik

> ‪Lithuania Presentation [Long Version]‬‏ - YouTube

 I like this comment under the video - "thank the russians and soviets for preserving all that beauty!﻿"  ::

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## mergike

> I like this comment under the video - "thank the russians and soviets for preserving all that beauty!﻿"

 It‘s obvious that it‘s not Lithuanian who wrote it. You never preserved anything here... 90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed by Russians. Is it what you call preservation????? Wake up at least once! All you are able to is just that - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Svh...eature=related

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## Romik

> 90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed by Russians.

 When it happened? there was bombing?  

> All you are able to is just that

  It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

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## mergike

> When it happened? there was bombing? 
>  It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

 
Of course, these two things can’t be compared. But does it means that killing unarmed civilians is normal and everything have to be like that???? Actually, you really didn‘t surprise me with comparison of dead people number during January events and the number of Jewish killed during the second WW in Lithuania. However, I‘m not even trying to compare these two things, it‘s you who is doing it because you simply don’t know how to make all these soviet crimes in Lithuania look less serious. 
By the way, if according to you it‘s Lithuanians who killed all these Jewish here then maybe you can explain one thing to me: Why when Nazis understood that they are going to lose against Russia they started digging out shot Jews bodies and then burned it? If it‘s Lithuanians who killed Jewish when we were occupied by Germany then why Nazi tried to hide proofs of this terrible crime? What was the point for Nazi to do that??? 
Anyway, I’m not going to delve in this topic anymore, if there is still something unclear to you then read my previous posts about it.
Furthermore, is it really important how Soviets destroyed towns of Lithuania? No matter how they did it, the result was the same – everything was destroyed.

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## nulle

> It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

 Before Nazi invasion there  were no problems with Jews in Baltics.
In Latvia yiddish was  one of the official languages - you could speak in it in the  parliament.
Antisemitic and Nazi organizations were banned at  that time and their leaders were imprisoned.
The same was in  other Baltic states too.
So please research the facts and don't  spread bullshit propaganda. 
Better look at Russia -  now there racism and nazism definately is on the  rise. &#x202a;Nazi crisis in Russia&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube &#x202a;Set My Brother Free!!!&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube
I  was going to post another video - but better not - it is really fucked  up...

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## Romik

> Of course, these two things can’t be compared. But does it means that killing unarmed civilians is normal and everything have to be like that????

 It means that we are not worse than you and your allies. There were bad things happened in Soviet Lithuania however in that time Lithuanians treated the same way as Russians and others and there were also similar clashes in Moscow in 1991, 1993.  You've thrown words "90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed" but how it was did, was it like in South Ossetia by night missile shelling on sleeping unarmed civilians by your ally? Or was there planned destroying worn-out buildings in order to build new ones?

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## Romik

> Better look at Russia - now there racism and nazism definately is on the rise.

 Of course there are such things in society but in no way it's connived by authorities, just try to conduct any nazi march (as it happens in the Baltics) and you'll know what it's look like Omon's bludgeons.  

> Antisemitic and Nazi organizations were banned at that time and their leaders were imprisoned.
> The same was in other Baltic states too.

 But why now they work?

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## mergike

> Of course there are such things in society but in no way it's connived by authorities, just try to conduct any nazi march (as it happens in the Baltics) and you'll know what it's look like Omon's bludgeons. 
> But why now they work?

 How many questions you have! Maybe first of all you would like to answer to the ones which I gave to you??? you ‘‘were destroying worn out buildings and instead of it built new ones‘‘?? Maybe in your dreams!!! And about what allies are you talking about? Who were our allies? Nazi who occupied us or communists who also occupied us? Since when occupants are called as allies??? There were no allies at all! You know, I even was starting to think that I might have been too harsh in this forum, but after all you said there it seems that I really wasn’t. 
First of all you say that Lithuanians killed all these Jews here but later on when there is no use of it and you are not able to give an answer to one simple my question then you start talking about these days? And what happens these days? Yes, everyone in Lithuania can express their own opinion, as long as it do not leads to criminal actions. It’s said in 25th article of Constitution of Lithuania that: Freedom to express convictions and to impart information shall be incompatible with criminal actions—incitement of national, racial, religious, or social hatred, violence and discrimination, with slander and disinformation. Therefore, doesn‘t matter if persons nationalistic or communistic ideas will lead to a criminal actions, racism or religion hatred etc., then you can be sure that this person will be punished there in a decent way. By the way, all Nazi and communist symbols are forbidden in Lithuania. Furthermore, if you say that Lithuanians are Nazi then find at least one registered nationalist party in Lithuania! But you know you‘ll simply waste your time because there is no registered Nazi party in Lithuania. 
And I think that before starting to blame Baltic countries of nationalism you should find out how Russians behaved with Jews all the time. 
Do you really want that I would remind you that Jews weren‘t even allowed to live in Russian empire during 1791 – 1917???? What was that???? Not a discrimination????? Not a racism????? ( to be more precise Russians let Jews live just in Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine.) However, as you know Baltic states before Nazi occupation didn‘t have any problems with Jews at all. Or maybe we should remember how Stalin cleaned up all the Jews from his party only because they were Jews????? What do you think was that? 
Or maybe you want to know that when Russians occupied Lithuania they just simply explode the biggest synagogue in Vilnius old town? Did you show your love to Jews this way? And of course all these Jews which were still alive there after Nazi occupation the same way like Lithuanians didn‘t have any right to profess their own religious belief. So why don‘t you before blaming Baltic States of Nazism first of all look at yourself?

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## BappaBa

> But now let‘s talk about second photo. Do you know who is this man standing in the photo? Some kind of Lithuanian? I bet that you have no idea about it because otherwise you wouldn‘t have put this photo there and made such a mistake  This man in the photo is SS obarshturmfhurer Joachim Hamman and I guess you understand from his name and surname that he isn‘t Lithuanian but German. Hamman was a leader of Rollkommando Hamann - a small mobile unit which committed mass Jewish murders in Lithuania and also was responsible for large number of murders in Latvia, Daugavpils. So are you still thinking that it‘s Lithuanians who are beating this Jewish people with metal steel bars???

 Поделись своим научным открытием с Яд Вашем. Там эта гнида названа _литовским_ погромщиком. Лагеря уничтожения и массовые убийства - Фотографии- Образование - Яд Вашем

----------


## mergike

And what do you think you‘ll prove by sending another link to the same photos? I said that this man in the photo is Joachim Hamman. Do some research about him if something is not clear to you.
And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it. So maybe you can give an answer to this simple question? Do you think that they without any reason were hiding proofs of the crime which according to you was made by Lithuanians???  And if it were Lithuanians who killed these 200 000 jews there then how Nazi knew where exactly all these bodies were burried??? Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?
First of all look at yourself before blaming us so perversively.. 
Do I have to remind you that more than *300,000* citizens of Estonia, almost _a third of the population_ at the time, were affected by deportation, arrests, execution and other acts of repression. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least *200,000 people* or 20% of its population to repressions, exodus, and war 
In all, over *200,000* people suffered from Soviet repressions in Latvia, of which some 60% were deported to the Soviet GULAG in Siberia and the Far-East. The Soviet regime forced more than *260,000* Latvians to flee the country.  
Between 1940–41, thousands of Lithuanians were arrested and hundreds of political prisoners were arbitrarily executed. More than 17,000 people were deported to Siberia in June 1941. After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the incipient Soviet political apparatus was either destroyed or retreated eastward. Lithuania was then occupied by Nazi Germany for a little over three years. In 1944, the Soviet occupation of Lithuania resumed following the German army's being expelled. Following World War II and the subsequent suppression of the Lithuanian Forest Brothers, Soviet authorities *executed thousands of resistance fighters and civilians accused of aiding them*. Some *300,000* Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost *780,000* citizens as a result of Soviet occupation. 
Or maybe you want to remember how Russians behaved with Polish people? Torture was used on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns. Prisoners were scalded with boiling water in Bobrka; in Przemyslany, people had their noses, ears, and fingers cut off and eyes put out; in Czortkow, female inmates had their breasts cut off; and in Drohobycz, victims were bound together with barbed wire. Similar atrocities occurred in Sambor, Stanislawow,Stryj, and Zloczow. 
During the years 1939–41, nearly *1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported,* of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and _7.4% were Jews_. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the _320,000_ Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 *were murdered*. 
This is taken from Wikipedia, and I mentioned just few countries which you occupied... Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
So after all, when we consider the fact that Russians love so much to celebrate 9th of May, and according to them they definitely have a ‘‘reason‘‘ to be proud of such ‘‘achievements‘‘...I think it says everything what is needed to be said....

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## Romik

> How many questions you have! Maybe first of all you would like to answer to the ones which I gave to you??? you ‘‘were destroying worn out buildings and instead of it built new ones‘‘?? Maybe in your dreams!!! And about what allies are you talking about? Who were our allies? Nazi who occupied us or communists who also occupied us? Since when occupants are called as allies??? There were no allies at all! You know, I even was starting to think that I might have been too harsh in this forum, but after all you said there it seems that I really wasn’t. 
> First of all you say that Lithuanians killed all these Jews here but later on when there is no use of it and you are not able to give an answer to one simple my question then you start talking about these days? And what happens these days? Yes, everyone in Lithuania can express their own opinion, as long as it do not leads to criminal actions. It’s said in 25th article of Constitution of Lithuania that: Freedom to express convictions and to impart information shall be incompatible with criminal actions—incitement of national, racial, religious, or social hatred, violence and discrimination, with slander and disinformation. Therefore, doesn‘t matter if persons nationalistic or communistic ideas will lead to a criminal actions, racism or religion hatred etc., then you can be sure that this person will be punished there in a decent way. By the way, all Nazi and communist symbols are forbidden in Lithuania. Furthermore, if you say that Lithuanians are Nazi then find at least one registered nationalist party in Lithuania! But you know you‘ll simply waste your time because there is no registered Nazi party in Lithuania. 
> And I think that before starting to blame Baltic countries of nationalism you should find out how Russians behaved with Jews all the time. 
> Do you really want that I would remind you that Jews weren‘t even allowed to live in Russian empire during 1791 – 1917???? What was that???? Not a discrimination????? Not a racism????? ( to be more precise Russians let Jews live just in Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine.) However, as you know Baltic states before Nazi occupation didn‘t have any problems with Jews at all. Or maybe we should remember how Stalin cleaned up all the Jews from his party only because they were Jews????? What do you think was that? 
> Or maybe you want to know that when Russians occupied Lithuania they just simply explode the biggest synagogue in Vilnius old town? Did you show your love to Jews this way? And of course all these Jews which were still alive there after Nazi occupation the same way like Lithuanians didn‘t have any right to profess their own religious belief. So why don‘t you before blaming Baltic States of Nazism first of all look at yourself?

 I do look at ourselves, there'd been bad things to Jews and other nationalities in USSR but it wasn't Nazism because they had the same that had Russians, there were exploded not only synagogues but also Russian churches. Anyways there is measure to any evil - exploded churches can be rebuilt but murdered people can't. As for occupation - it's not so big evil like genocide. We occupied, we were occupied and that has been going on all around the world, the best democracy is still doing it in Iraq, Afghanistan ets and the USA and many others are the result of occupation, so you can just thank God that you haven't shared fate with American Indians.

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## Romik

> And what do you think you‘ll prove by sending another link to the same photos? I said that this man in the photo is Joachim Hamman. Do some research about him if something is not clear to you.
> And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it. So maybe you can give an answer to this simple question? Do you think that they without any reason were hiding proofs of the crime which according to you was made by Lithuanians???  And if it were Lithuanians who killed these 200 000 jews there then how Nazi knew where exactly all these bodies were burried??? Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?
> First of all look at yourself before blaming us so perversively.. 
> Do I have to remind you that more than *300,000* citizens of Estonia, almost _a third of the population_ at the time, were affected by deportation, arrests, execution and other acts of repression. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least *200,000 people* or 20% of its population to repressions, exodus, and war 
> In all, over *200,000* people suffered from Soviet repressions in Latvia, of which some 60% were deported to the Soviet GULAG in Siberia and the Far-East. The Soviet regime forced more than *260,000* Latvians to flee the country.  
> Between 1940–41, thousands of Lithuanians were arrested and hundreds of political prisoners were arbitrarily executed. More than 17,000 people were deported to Siberia in June 1941. After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the incipient Soviet political apparatus was either destroyed or retreated eastward. Lithuania was then occupied by Nazi Germany for a little over three years. In 1944, the Soviet occupation of Lithuania resumed following the German army's being expelled. Following World War II and the subsequent suppression of the Lithuanian Forest Brothers, Soviet authorities *executed thousands of resistance fighters and civilians accused of aiding them*. Some *300,000* Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost *780,000* citizens as a result of Soviet occupation. 
> Or maybe you want to remember how Russians behaved with Polish people? Torture was used on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns. Prisoners were scalded with boiling water in Bobrka; in Przemyslany, people had their noses, ears, and fingers cut off and eyes put out; in Czortkow, female inmates had their breasts cut off; and in Drohobycz, victims were bound together with barbed wire. Similar atrocities occurred in Sambor, Stanislawow,Stryj, and Zloczow. 
> During the years 1939–41, nearly *1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported,* of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and _7.4% were Jews_. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the _320,000_ Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 *were murdered*. 
> This is taken from Wikipedia, and I mentioned just few countries which you occupied... Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
> So after all, when we consider the fact that Russians love so much to celebrate 9th of May, and according to them they definitely have a ‘‘reason‘‘ to be proud of such ‘‘achievements‘‘...I think it says everything what is needed to be said....

 Einsatzgruppen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  

> As the German invasion began, a massive series of bloody pogroms broke out, some of which were encouraged by the Germans, and all of which *were the spontaneous outbreaks of local anti-Semitism.*[28] Within the first few weeks of Operation Barbarossa, 40 pogroms had broken out with *about 10,000 Jews being killed by local people.*[29] The Canadian historian Erich Haberer has written that incidents such as the Jedwabne pogrom were not incidental, but rather "integral" to the Holocaust in Eastern Europe as *without local help, the Germans could not have murdered so many so quickly.*[30] Upon entering Kaunas on June 25, 1941, the Einsatzgruppen released all of the criminals from the local jail and encouraged them to join the already existing pogrom.[31] Between June 23–27, 1941, 4,000 Jews were killed on the streets of Kaunas by local people, and saw the first massacres of Jews in open pits *committed by Lithuanian anti-Semitics*.

 As for GULAG - it was all political and Russians there were much more than Lithuanians

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## Romik

> And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it.

 Where you found that rubbish? What the sense to dig out bodies to burn them, how that could help to hide proofs of who exactly that did?   

> Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?

 There are evidences of acts of executions and it's obviously without local help so many Jews could not be so quickly identified and murdered. Germans didn't know where lived every Jew.

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## mergike

> Where you found that rubbish? What the sense to dig out bodies to burn them, how that could help to hide proofs of who exactly that did?  
> There are evidences of acts of executions and it's obviously without local help so many Jews could not be so quickly identified and murdered. Germans didn't know where lived every Jew.

 
I said to you before to read my previous messages, but as I see you don‘t understood what I said.  _I don‘t think that it was convenient at all because even in middle ages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disappear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! _ 
And there comes the second one.  _Of course, I don‘t say that there was no Lithuanian who killed a Jewish (some were forced by Nazis), but as I said before most of Lithuanian people tried to save lives of Jewish people because we never had anything against them. 
Doesn‘t it really seems strange to you that since middle ages there was no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish and just suddenly when Nazis occupied Lithuania all Lithuanians started to ‘‘hate‘‘ Jewish so much? 
It‘s silly to put the blame on Lithuanians for Jewish massacres in my country, when most of the people risked their own lives to save these Jewish people._ 
By the way, that‘s not rubbish at all. That‘s a fact. Nazi were doing it not so that someone couldn‘t find out who killed Jews there, but because they wanted that the number of killed Jews in Lithuania wouldn‘t be so big and it wouldn‘t look as such a big crime, because when they started to lose to Russia, they understood that one day they still will have to pay for all these killings. So, as you understand when someone just burry the body of human it takes time while all the bones rots but when the bodies are burned who will count how many Jews were killed? Therefore, if it‘s Lithuanians who according to you killed 200 000 Jews in Lithuania then why Germans were trying to reduce number of dead Jews bodies???? Why they behaved so???? So, it‘s you not me who are saying noncences that Lithuanians who were occupied by Nazi killed all these 200 000 Jews. By the way, then what Nazi soldiers were doing in Lithuania according to you? Picking flowers from the fields of Lithuania?  :: .

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## mergike

> I do look at ourselves, there'd been bad things to Jews and other nationalities in USSR but it wasn't Nazism because they had the same that had Russians, there were exploded not only synagogues but also Russian churches. Anyways there is measure to any evil - exploded churches can be rebuilt but murdered people can't. As for occupation - it's not so big evil like genocide. We occupied, we were occupied and that has been going on all around the world, the best democracy is still doing it in Iraq, Afghanistan ets and the USA and many others are the result of occupation, so you can just thank God that you haven't shared fate with American Indians.

 Damn, do you think that I‘m so stupid? Since when one communist started killing another communist??? better go and tell such fairy tales to someone else. 
‘‘there'd been bad things‘‘ – you call it just as a bad things? It‘s strange that you don‘t say that it‘s completely normal and that there were no crimes that Russians made in Baltic because they only ‘‘built everything here‘‘ as most Russians are used to say. Haha, yes synagogues can be rebuilt, but why then these Russians who ‘‘built everything in Lithuania‘‘ didn‘t rebuilt it but just exploded? And definitely these people who died in exile or were killed in Lithuania really never will be alive... by the way doesn‘t really killing all these Lithuanian people without any reason doesn‘t seem to be a genocide? How would you call it then?  
Watch all this documentary if it‘s not clear what soviets did in my country… &#x202a;Red Terror on the Amber Coast (FULL MOVIE) 1&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

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## Romik

> by the way doesn‘t really killing all these Lithuanian people without any reason doesn‘t seem to be a genocide? How would you call it then?

 There were political crimes and applied the same way to Russians, it wasn't on nationalistic reasons. If there was genocide you don't talk here.

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## mergike

> There were political crimes and applied the same way to Russians, it wasn't on nationalistic reasons. If there was genocide you don't talk here.

 
The term genocide came from Latin word ‘gens‘ which stands for “people who claim common descent,” that is, a clan, tribe, or even nation. However, according to Historian Norman Naimark these soviet crimes should be considered genocide on three grounds. First of all, some of Stalin‘s attacks were genocide under the UN definition, for example his exile and starvation of minority ethnic groups. Second, he shows that some of those who sought to define genocide during and after World War II did not intend to restrict it to gens: they included political groups, that is, entities like the Kulaks. The Soviets and others demanded these groups be removed from the definition, and they were. Third, international law has evolved, and with it the legal meaning of genocide: recent proceedings in the Baltic states, for example, have broadened the definition.  
By the way, if it was just a crime for political reasons, then maybe you can explain what political crimes did just born babies, pregnant women or elders??? And if you still keep on claiming that during soviet times one communist kiled another communists then where is the info about all those ‘‘hundred thousands of Russians who died in Siberia because of starvation or slave labour‘‘ the same way as people from Baltic countries died????? Were russians massively deportated to Siberia without any reason and then people from occupied countries came to live in their houses? I said to you that you should go and tell fairy tales to someone else.

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## Romik

> The term genocide came from Latin word ‘gens‘ which stands for “people who claim common descent,” that is, a clan, tribe, or even nation. However, according to Historian Norman Naimark these soviet crimes should be considered genocide on three grounds. First of all, some of Stalin‘s attacks were genocide under the UN definition, for example his exile and starvation of minority ethnic groups. Second, he shows that some of those who sought to define genocide during and after World War II did not intend to restrict it to gens: they included political groups, that is, entities like the Kulaks. The Soviets and others demanded these groups be removed from the definition, and they were. Third, international law has evolved, and with it the legal meaning of genocide: recent proceedings in the Baltic states, for example, have broadened the definition.  
> By the way, if it was just a crime for political reasons, then maybe you can explain what political crimes did just born babies, pregnant women or elders??? And if you still keep on claiming that during soviet times one communist kiled another communists then where is the info about all those ‘‘hundred thousands of Russians who died in Siberia because of starvation or slave labour‘‘ the same way as people from Baltic countries died????? Were russians massively deportated to Siberia without any reason and then people from occupied countries came to live in their houses? I said to you that you should go and tell fairy tales to someone else.

 Deportation is not genocide and after Stalin's death the exiled were allowed to move back. Frankly speaking, it was a strategic step to remove untrusted people from the borders of the country as there were had shown terrible things during the nazi occupation.  
About hundred thousands of Russians dead from Stalin's repressions there is a lot of information, for example near Moscow in Butovo polygon were shot 20,000 political prisoners.

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## CoffeeCup

> And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried  to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or  priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children,  though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this,  and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill  these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot  themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to  kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified

 Из википедии:  

> 22 июня 1941 года, после нападения Германии на СССР, последовали мятежи в крупных городах Литвы. В Каунасе было провозглашено Временное правительство Литвы во главе с Юозасом Амбразявичюсом, которое с самого начала поддерживало тесные контакты с немцами. Как описывал Отто Кариус в своей книге «Тигры в грязи» начало оккупации Литвы:    
> 			
> 				Нас повсюду восторженно встречало население Литвы. Здешние жители  видели в нас освободителей. *Мы были шокированы* тем, что *перед нашим  прибытием* повсюду были *разорены и разгромлены еврейские лавочки*. Мы  думали, что такое оказалось возможно только во время «хрустальной ночи» в  Германии. *Это нас возмутило, и мы осудили ярость толпы*. Но у нас не  было времени долго размышлять об этом[6].

 Даже немцев шокировала ваша "любовь" к евреям. (Если вы уж русским не доверяете в плане истории.)

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## mergike

> Deportation is not genocide and after Stalin's death the exiled were allowed to move back. Frankly speaking, it was a strategic step to remove untrusted people from the borders of the country as there were had shown terrible things during the nazi occupation.  
> About hundred thousands of Russians dead from Stalin's repressions there is a lot of information, for example near Moscow in Butovo polygon were shot 20,000 political prisoners.

 
‘’Untrusted people’’? Then why all these ‘‘untrusted people‘‘ were deportated there by force? Did these ‘‘untrusted people‘‘ wanted themselves to go to Siberia and die there from starvation or slave work? What was the reason to exile everyone doesn‘t matter if they were babies, children, youth or elders, men or women? 
And I think that now you can really start comparing Russian victims with all the people who were killed by soviets in occupied countries... You really should see a difference...

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## mergike

> Из википедии: 
> Даже немцев шокировала ваша "любовь" к евреям. (Если вы уж русским не доверяете в плане истории.)

 
It‘s a subjective statement made by German commander. Did you expect that he would say: oh yes, we killed all these Jews when we came to Lithuania!? I again ask you to explain why German soldiers were digging out bodies of Jews and burned it if it was Lithuanians who killed all these Jews??? What was the reason for Germans to do that???
By the way, I have another question for you  ::  As you know when USSR occupied Baltic countries they nationalised everything what people who lived there had, therefore both Lithuanian and Jewish shops also became a possession of USSR. So do you think that Lithuanians would have been so stupid so that they would break into these USSR nationalised shops and this way chose death penalty for themselves??? 
By the way, how it happened so that Nazi knew which shops before USSR nationalization belonged to Jews? Before you Romik said that they even didn’t know where Jews lived but somehow they knew which shops 1 year before they came here were possession of Jews?   ::  Really, so many mystical things happened in Lithuania during Soviet and Nazi occupations... ::  ::  Don’t you think so?  ::  
Furthermore, if these Nazi saw such a terrible view of these ‘’Jews shops’’ then why no one knows when it actually happened and these events do not have such names like crystal night?  
And what is most important, it’s a long time since these who took part in Jews’ killings in Lithuania are sentenced, on the other hand, Russian criminals who killed innocent Lithuanians during occupation years, January events, Medininkai massacre etc. are still free and Russia isn’t extraditing them... therefore, I guess it again says more than it is needed to be said...

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## Hanna

_Nulle, I am not sure why I am seeing more poverty in Riga than in Liepaja? Some people look really poor..... 
Also, here, I can guess who is a Russian speaker, because they actually look more Russian in faces etc. Maybe the people who immigrated to Liepaja are different somehow than the ones that immigrated to Riga? Perhaps the Russian speakers in Riga are from further East in Russia or something? In Liepaja, everyone looked the same, and many Russian speakers were people I mistook for Scandinavian or German tourists._  
And following on from all the talk about Jews and the war etc: I don't think there are hardly any Jews here, but before the war, there were probably very many. I have heard the same thing about Vilinius. 
IN RIGA they are actually building a museum about the Ghetto that the nazis set up, and about the holocaust. I walked past it today.  
And regardless of what you think of Russians, I would be happy to swap Swedens 1 million Somalis, Iraqis, Afghans etc for 2 or 3 million Russians. You are much lucker in this respect. If you go to Scandinavia, Germany, Netherlands etc you'll see what I mean. Our situation is really problematic. These people can't adapt, in many cases they can't read and write properly and they can't speak any European language.... In the long run, it's going to create much more problems than your situation.

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## nulle

> These people can't adapt, in many cases they can't read and write properly and they can't speak any European language.

 As I said - we have the same problems here.
For example - parliament deputy Valery Kravcov (he is not the only one, but most notorious) - he does not understand Latvian almost at all.
Can you imagine that in Sweden's parliament deputies do not understand swedish?
Can you imagine that in Russia's parliament deputies do not understand russian?
Previously we had a law that prohibited people who do not understand official language to work in the parliament.
Recently we dropped that - and look what happens...

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## Hanna

You can't honestly compare a Russian with Somalis or Afghans? And on the language issue, Russian is a European language, and everyone in Latvia speaks it.  
Somalis or Afghans take ten years to learn Swedish to a useful level, they can't speak English to a useful level either and in most cases they have no job that is suited for the economy in Sweden. Many of them can't even read or write. 
But for what it's worth Valery Kravcov sounds like an arrogant twat.... I personally think he ought to set a good example for his constituency and try learning Latvian. But it's a democracy, so people have a right to vote for him anyway, I suppose. Maybe some of the Russian speakers are beginning to wake up to the idea of democracy and realise that with 40% of the population, their language needs should be better represented. 
But with Kravcov: Since everyone is forced to learn Latvian now, he's the last generation of people who will be able to realistically claim he can't speak Latvian. And the law doesn't force anyone to speak with him either. If he's being arrogant about it, they can give him the same treatment and just not speak with him.  
I can see from churches, inscription and culture in general that Russians were around in Latvia_ long before_ the Soviet era. I think with a small country like yours, in such a strategic crossroads in Europe, it's just unavoidable. Other countries (at least in the past) can't stay away. Neither their generals, nor the people. I think you just have to make the best of the situation. To be very negative or constantly complain about it won't help. 
Luxembourg for example is such a country. Their language is really small, and throughout history they are constantly invaded and had plenty of immigration.  But they take pride in learning the languages of their neighbouring countries and being friendly and open. As a result they are very prosperous and a very successful country.  
I understand that it was a fear in the Soviet days that the Latvian language would just disappear and the whole area would become an extension of Russia. Perhaps that was part of what Moscow politicians were trying to achieve, who knows?   The risk of that is gone though.  
But obviously, Russian is a much more internationally useful language than Latvian. There will be more books, culture and opportunities for those who can speak it. It seems that Latvia is trying to quickly make English fill that role instead, by constantly pushing English ahead of Russian, ignoring the Russian population.  
I have noticed that there are probably more Russian spoken on the streets of Riga, than Latvian. I can understang that this is really irritating for you and that it feels wrong. Yet, what can you do? This is going to make me sound terrible, but the Russians are Europeans, educated, mostly nice and have been part of your country for centuries. I am going to return to Sweden and the terrible immigration problem... Mass immigration into Scandinavia is just such a good example that there is something very dodgy with democracy. Practically nobody wants it, yet it keeps happening, and it's not even possible to protest about it. Like I said, I'd rather have the Russians any day.

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## nulle

> I understand that it was a fear in the Soviet days that the Latvian  language would just disappear and the whole area would become an  extension of Russia. Perhaps that was part of what Moscow politicians  were trying to achieve, who knows?

 Yes - in 1935 Latvians were 75% of population (Russians were about 10%, the rest were Germans and Jews), but in 1989 only 52% - and if Soviet Union continued to exist for some ~20 years, share would be probably ~40% or less.
That was the reason why we adopted such "apartheidistic" policies.  

> Practically nobody wants it, yet it keeps happening, and it's not even possible to protest about it.

 Allowing Afghans, Somalis, etc to immigrate was Swedish people's decision. We had no choice, because we were told: "Either you accept these immigrants or we send tanks to Riga".
And Latvian families had to wait even 10 years for an apartment, but to immigrants these were given immediately.  

> I have noticed that there are probably more Russian spoken on the streets of Riga, than Latvian

 Of course - Latvians actually are minority in Rīga.

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## Hanna

So the solution is to force the Russians to become Latvians, lol? If you add an "S" to the name, and force them to speak Latvian... 
Honestly, this is not my business obviously.... it's just so unbelievably un-PC that I can't believe it's going on in a neighbouring country. 
Oh well.  
I am writing from the ferry to Sweden. I remember doing this exact journey in my childhood on the scruffy little ferry that was running back then. It was so wobbly that I got sea-sick and at that ferry they had just one cafeteria and canteen. But this current boat is a floating nightclub/shopping centre/restaurant complex - there is one leaving every day.  
And... more than half the passengers and all the staff are Russian speakers. But there is practically no written Russian and no announcements in Russian.  
The internet connection here is rubbish so I will finish my "travel blog" tomorrow or so, with a summary about things to do in Latvia.  
I don't think most people realise that *almost all of Latvia's cost consists of gorgeous sand beaches*, or that the country isn't quite as small as it looks on the map. It takes a full day to travel from one corner to another.

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## nulle

> So the solution is to force the Russians to become Latvians, lol?

 Solution is to encourage everyone living in Latvia to know and use Latvian.
They can use any language they want in informal communication.
Not to make something like Belgium.
If someone really does not like Latvian and wants signs in Russian - well - ~300 km away is a country where you can put as many signs in Russian as you wish and Russian is official there.
And this country somehow happens to be biggest in the whole world.
But why they choose to live under this oppressive apartheid regime and not go to the happy land in the east where they will not be oppressed and forced to speak Latvian?
Hell, Putin himself have published many calls for Russians to return to the fatherland - why they do not return if their lives are so bad in Latvia? - We will happily help them to move.  

> it's just so unbelievably un-PC that I can't believe it's going on in a neighbouring country.

 Then why there are no signs in arabic/persian in Sweden? Why these languages are not official - if you say that there are ~1 000 000 speakers of these languages in Sweden?   

> And... more than half the passengers and all the staff are Russian  speakers. But there is practically no written Russian and no  announcements in Russian.

 Is it a Tallink ferry?  ::

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## Romik

> I can see from churches, inscription and culture in general that Russians were around in Latvia_ long before_ the Soviet era.

 Actually it is. Latvia was a part of Russian Empire after Great Northern War, Russia achieved that fighting not with Latvians.  

> Peter the Great was a big fan of Riga. He married Latvian Martha Skavronskaya, after his death known as Empress Ekaterina I. Having received a palace as a gift from the municipality of Riga (although he insisted on paying), Peter used to visit Riga regularly. He helped to rebuild the tallest church in Riga (St.Peter's church) after it was burned down, and created a general plan for Riga's development, including planning many parks and boulevards, and planting some trees himself. Riga became an industrialised port city of the Russian empire, in which it remained until World War I. By 1900, Riga was the third largest city in Russia after Moscow and Saint Petersburg in terms of the number of industrial workers and number of theatres.

 Wikipedia

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## nulle

> Russians were around in Latvia_ long before_ the Soviet era.

 Yes, and after 1918 when Latvia became independent - everyone (including Russians, Germans, Jews) received citizenship automatically.
 And in 1990 their citizenship was restored with no questions asked. 
Most russians here have citizenship - most Soviet time immigrants do not.
So russians that lived here for centuries always had the same rights as Latvians since independence in 1918.

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## Hanna

You make a good argument Nulle. 
All I can say is that it is probably not easy for these Russian speakers to simply emigrate to Russia even if the thought occurred to them. Perhaps all their family and friends are in Latvia, they were born and grew up there. Plus it is expensive to emigrate. The immigrants to Sweden have no ties whatsoever and no group is very large. None of the individual groups are over 1% of the population with the exception of Finns. Also there is absolutely no shared history.  
However, an interpreter is provided to them for free for quite a lot of different circumstances, such as police and hospital etc if they can't communicate in Swedish. My view is that this is excessive and too expensive to be tax subsidized. It's political correctness going too far in the other direction! A 
Sweden historically give gives out state information in Finnish and Sami in some areas though - but I don't come from such an area so I don't know how it works. There is practically nobody in that group who can't speak Swedish.  
Yes, the ferry was Tallink. In contrast, getting off the ferry there were lots of information in Russian, including "Welcome to Stockholm", maps, tour guiding etc.

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## nulle

> it is probably not easy for these Russian speakers to simply emigrate to Russia even if the thought occurred to them.

 But they do not have problems to emigrate to UK and Ireland. Which is way further than Russia and there Russian is not official too.

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## Basil77

However, Hanna, I would not recommend you to base your opinion on Russians in general from your experience meeting Latvian Russians. Here is some Swiss guy's opinion on that subject from another forum:  

> As I am sure you are aware there are substantial Russian minorities, especially in the Baltic states. 
> As  I talked with various business men, politicians and ordinary people  they all give me a impression of the Russians living there as being a  low social class with high crime rates, high abuse problems.. etc. 
> A quick look at economic demographics confirm this.    
> So after these experiences I had quite a bad view on Russians since I judged every russian based on the baltic ones.  
> But  then one day I was on a business trip to St Petersburg that changed my  mind completely, not only were the Russians, polite, well mannered and  pleasant to deal with, they also looked very differently from those  living in the Baltic.  
> They were tall almost blonde, those in the baltic are short gray creatures.  
> WHY IS THIS?
> What kind of people did you export during the soviet times?

 I think that the policy of Baltic governments towards Russian population during the last 20 years quite marginalized them and the most of the decent ones who didn't want to be a "second grade" non-citizens simply left.

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## nulle

I would not call them "second-grade" - the only difference is voting rights.
And as I said - most russians ARE citizens... 
If I posted something like previous Basil77's post on Latvian Russian forums, I would certainly be called Фашист, ганс, латышский нацист or something like that  ::  
But I agree, that we probably  received not the best people from USSR.

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## Hanna

My impression is that most of the Russian speakers in Liepaja were very blonde and looked Northern or exactly the same as the Balts. They were well dressed, polite and in my opionion more helpful than the Latvians. 
 On the other hand in Riga.... the Russians there are definitely mostly working class, and also, there was something different about their looks. No idea the reason for that. I had absolutely no trouble by anyone though - I think it's a safe city although like I said earlier, some areas looked a bit grim and some people were in a bad shape.  
It seems likely as Basil77 said, that many of those who could leave, left. 
I would probably leave if I was in their situation.

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## nulle

Good article about Latvia in Soviet years: Failed State Latvia?: The deeper roots of Latvia as a failed state lite
I really like this term - *Anticivilization*  ::  - fits Soviet Union perfectly.
A country where you could go in jail + interrogated by KGB for displaying this http://balticreports.com/wp-content/...tvian-flag.jpg
But could easily get away with stealing from your workplace because nearly everyone did that...

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## Windup Merchantski

> ... could easily get away with stealing from your workplace because nearly everyone did that...

 I trust it you have some official figures at hand? How many is nearly everyone? Chapter and verse, please.

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## nulle

What official figures?
No one registered how much he stole that day.  ::

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## Lampada

> What official figures?
> No one registered how much he stole that day.

 Раньше говорили:  "_Если ничего не стащил с работы, ходишь как оплёванный_". 
Ещё анекдот оттуда же: _Идёт прапорщик через КПП. Везёт тачку с мусором. Дежурный его спрашивает: 
- Что украл? 
- Да ничего я не украл, иду мусор выбрасывать. 
- Не может такого быть! Признавайся, что украл? 
- Да мусор выношу! Ничего не украл! 
- Давай, показывай мусор. 
Прапор вываливает перед ним кучу мусора. 
Дежурный смотрел-смотрел - правда мусор. Запихнул все назад, прапор повёз тачку дальше: "Что украл, что украл... Тачку украл!"_

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## Marcus

> Nobody here has defended Stalin's idea to incorporate the Baltic states

 I defend this idea because Germany would have taken them anyway, and the border would have been much closer to Leningrad. Stalin managed to return many parts of former Russian Empire without a war. That's great!

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## Marcus

> Anyway, everything we said is complete truth - this is why anyone couldn‘t deny it

 Everything you write is complete lie and nonsense. I can easily prove it.

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