# Forum About Russia Politics  Why Russia loves Putin

## mashamania

Why Russia loves Putin 
© 2006 Creators Syndicate Inc.  
Asked by the "Today" show's Matt Lauer about the recent caning Vice President Cheney gave him and Russia, President Vladimir Putin gave this cocky and cutting reply:  
"I think these kinds of comments from your vice president amount to the same thing as an unfortunate shot while hunting."  
In Rostock, Germany, Bush declined to defend Cheney or rebut Putin, though the veep's tough words in Lithuania May 4, accusing Russia of backsliding on democracy and using its oil as a weapon to blackmail neighbors, had to have been approved by the White House.   
Putin, a black belt in karate and the man into whose soul Bush famously saw five years ago, as he gazed into the eyes of that ex-KGB officer, takes no guff from these Americans.  
That is among the reasons Putin's approval rating in Russia is twice that of Bush in America and four times that of the veep. On the eastern shore of Delaware, where college girls from Eastern Europe come to work in the summer, Putin is a rock star among the Russians.  
Why is Putin popular in Russia? Why is America no longer so? As one of the achievements of the Reagan-Bush administration was to convert Russia from the hostile global power headed by Brezhnev into the friendly nation headed by Boris Yeltsin, these issues should concern us. For the relationship between the two greatest nuclear powers on earth has been going steadily downhill.  
Americans give these reasons for the estrangement: Putin's reversion to authoritarianism, his support for repressive regimes in Belarus and Uzbekistan, his closeness to Beijing (including joint military exercises), his sale of fighter jets to Hugo Chavez and anti-aircraft missiles to Tehran, his support for Iran's nuclear plant, his recognition of Hamas' election victory, his oil blackmail of Ukraine, his unplugging of Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, and his crackdown on U.S. NGOs promoting democracy in Russia. All seemed designed to show Russia's independence of – and, indeed, defiance of – the world leadership of the United States.  
And that is not an unfair conclusion. But Americans need to ask themselves whether we have had it coming. For consider how we have dealt with Russia's interests and sensitivities.  
Listening to U.S. advisers on how to privatize the wealth of the Soviet state, Russians saw their national assets looted by thieves, hustlers and "oligarchs" welcomed in the West, as their per capita income sank and their social security vanished.  
They saw the United States bomb into submission a Serb nation Russia had always seen as her Balkan godchild, for Serbia's crime of trying to hold on to her cradle province, Kosovo.  
They watched America go back on her word – given when the Red Army withdrew from Europe – and push NATO into Poland, the Baltic States, the Balkans and, now, Ukraine and Georgia. This is the political equivalent of Great Britain – had the United States come apart in the Civil War – making Virginia, South Carolina and Texas dominions of the British Empire.  
They saw U.S. agents, under cover of Bush's "democracy crusade," effect the defeat of pro-Russian governments in Kiev and Tiblisi – though the project failed in Minsk – and the election of regimes pledged to reorient their policies toward the EU, NATO and the United States.  
They saw Americans colluding with former provinces of the Soviet Union to develop pipelines that would bypass not only Iranian territory, but also Russian territory.  
They saw the U.S. bases in Central Asia they had approved for the Afghan war taking on a permanent character.  
They listened as U.S. neoconservatives cheered for Chechen rebels and officials from Cheney to McCain bashed Putin and Russia, with some calling for her expulsion from the G-8.  
Putin concluded, not incorrectly, that these Americans do not want partners, they want poodles. But Putin is not Blair. A patriot and nationalist, he has set about restoring Moscow's independence and self-respect, and started looking out for Russia first. He was determined to stand up for Russia, even if it meant standing up to the United States, which is why so many Russians respect him.  
He imposed a flat tax, stripped the oligarchs of their assets and jailed them or ran them out of the country, liquidated the Chechen murderers of Beslan, started using his oil wealth the way great powers always do, and began to reorient his foreign policy without consulting Washington, as Washington never consulted him.  
Though the West is losing Russia, Russia is not lost. But the minimal price of regaining Russian goodwill is to start treating her like a great nation. That means getting out of her face, getting our alliance off her front porch, and getting our bases and our Cold War agitprop agencies and pests out of her back yard.  
Russia today threatens no vital interest of the United States. Is it too much to ask that we treat Russia and her "space" the way we want Russia and Russians to treat ours? 
_________________ 
I couldn't believe Pat Buchanan wrote this article. He's actually sounding pro-Russian here.  ::  
edit - fyi, the article was written by Pat Buchanan who, for those who don't live in the US and don't know, is a conservative journalist in the US and an America first type. That's why it was surprising to see him write an article like this which is practically critical of the US and pro-Russia.

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## Dogboy182

Who wouldn't love pooty poot? Я хочу такого как Путин.

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## tdk2fe

> This is the political equivalent of Great Britain – had the United States come apart in the Civil War – making Virginia, South Carolina and Texas dominions of the British Empire.

 Interesting read - especially the above.  I never realized that the civil war was between the USA vs. Britain.  I thought it had something to do with succession... 
tdk

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## mashamania

^ I think he meant that if the US had split into several countries after the American Civil War and then Great Britain started making allegiances with those breakaway states.

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## mishau_

I'll tell you why. Because his regime encourages racist violence.  http://lenta.ru/news/2006/07/25/acquit/ 
So, foreigners, whatch out, now we can kill you with impunity.

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## Dogboy182

Another thing i can remember about the Soviet days. Most outsiders were treated with respect and kindly welcomed. People from central asia, Korea, China, Etheopia.... All over came to Russia to study. Now Racism runs wild... 
Good ol free speech.

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## Ramil

> Another thing i can remember about the Soviet days. Most outsiders were treated with respect and kindly welcomed. People from central asia, Korea, China, Etheopia.... All over came to Russia to study. Now Racism runs wild... 
> Good ol free speech.

 Soviet people were brought up within the concept of "Friendship among nations". It was a part of socialistic ideology. As the idiology went down so did the "friendship" (seeming to be a part of it). 
Socialistic ideology (all of it, even the good parts) was ruined by its own methods. The same are the consequences.

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## Vincent Tailors

Don't speak for everyone. I don't like him.

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## ST

yeah, i doesn’t liked him before, too. but after I has read this topic-my opinion has changed  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

> yeah, i didn’t liked him before either. but after I read this topic-my opinion has changed

 Interesting article! Me likey. 
Vincent, nobody is speaking for you. You can not deny the popularity of  your president in your country, this article just explain why he is so popular. You are free to not like him!

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## laxxy

Vow that was one ridiculous article if I've ever seen one. 
who tf is "creators syndicate"? probably some organization made to facilitate stealing from those $200m allocated for the "improvement of Russia's image worldwide"  ::

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## adoc

Who is "Russia"?  Who is that retarded sentimental broad?

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## mishau_

> Originally Posted by ST  yeah, I didn’t like[]him before either. But after I read this topic-my opinion has changed

  ::

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## Kirill2142

> with some calling for her expulsion from the G-8.

 Ну-ну, давайте, сделайте Россию враждебным государством. Вот только она не Северная Корея...

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## mashamania

[quote=mishau_] 

> Originally Posted by ST  Yeah, I didn’t like[]him before either. But after I read this topic-my opinion has changed

  :: [/quote:1s37ihvw]   ::

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## Vadim84

[quote=mashamania] 

> Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":ie7wwx4l        Originally Posted by ST  Yeah, I didn’t like[]him before either. But after I read this topic*,_*my opinion has changed

   :: [/quote:ie7wwx4l]   ::

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## mishau_

[quote=Vadim84] 

> Originally Posted by mishau_        Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":2m4hzwa4        Originally Posted by ST  No, I didn’t like[]him before either. But after I read this topic*,_*my opinion has changed

   :: [/quote:2m4hzwa4]   ::

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## Katyusha Grib

Well, if you read the book 'Putin's Russia' by the journalist Anna Politkovskaya, you might end up being not so keen on Putin! Yes, she may just be a touch biased but she raises a lot of ugly questions and is supposedly famous for her fearless, honest reporting.

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## Lampada

(Гуляет по интернету) 
Когда Путин летал на истребителе, он в неравном бою сбил двадцать нарушителей границы.  
Ложки, которыми ел Путин, исцеляют катаракту и глаукому.  
Вилкой, которой ел Путин, можно упокоить вампира одним ударом.  
Если наложить друг на друга отпечатки пальцев Путина, получится Государственный Герб Российской Федерации.  
Мальчик, которого поцеловал Путин, научился летать.  
Волос Путина нельзя использовать для магии Вуду. Все попытки закончились пожизненным заключением колдунов.  
Путин не только включает микрофон взглядом, но и выключает Windows Media Player голосом.  
Стол, за которым сидел Путин, автоматически получает звание генерал–майора.  
Ручка, которой писал Путин, явлется вторым официальным способом подписать договор о продаже души, наряду с кровью.  
В кино роль Путина всегда играет его брат–близнец Чак Норрис.  
Рубашки, которые носил Путин, составляют второй, секретный и самый мощный слой брони лучших российских танков.  
Носки Путина сбрасывают с бомбардировщиков на Чечню.  
На саммите G–8 в Петербурге Путин скрепил своей подписью декларацию о победе Сил Добра, действительную еще сто двадцать лет.  
Собака Путина спасала мир как минимум четырежды.  
Путин и Чак Норрис работают над одним проектом. Какой это проект — государственная тайна.  
Путин взглядом может вычислить точный домашний адрес человека по одному комментарию на любом сайте.  
Что–бы его не распяли, как в прошлый раз, Путин решил для начала выучить дзюдо.  
Носовые платки Путина являются собственностью Департамента Картографии и совершенно секретны.  
Путин не хочет идти на третий срок, потому что боится, что это затянется на 40 лет как в прошлый раз.  
Закон о защите чести и достоинства президента, является только дополнением к секретным бронированным трусам, защищающим честь президента сзади и достоинство спереди.  
Вопрос о пробуждении Ктулху немало позабавил президента, потому что Ктулху пробуждается каждое утро и идёт шить рукавицы.  
повторение фамилии "Путин" приумножает добро в этом мире.  
когда Путин был маленьким, он разбил чашку. из пролившейся воды образовались океаны, а из черепков материки.  
Фраза "Мутин пудак" служит пропуском в нижние круги ада.  
Путин не какает.  
Путин не пьёт водку, он вдыхает её через нос.  
на последнем чемпионате мира Путин мог стать лучшим бомбардиром, но не смог обыграть лучшего вратаря – себя.  
"Быть Владимиром Путиным". Двухглавая драма в трех частях по 4 года каждый.  
Иногда Путин спасает мир, поедая новорожденных наследников Князя Тьмы и при этом счастливо смеется.  
Взгляд Путина проникает сквозь лпятиметровую свинцовую стену и может вскипятить чайник на расстоянии трех километров за десять секунд. Для безопасности окружающих ему приходится не снимая носить специальные контактные линзы. Какого цвета глаза Путина на самом деле — знает только он сам и Чак Норрис, поскольку даже непрямой взгляд, отраженный в зеркале, испепеляет/превращает в камень/навсегда делает безумным (в зависимости от настроения Путина) любого человека, кроме этих двух.  
Новогоднее выступление Путина делает счастливыми 250,3 смертельнобольных ежегодно.  
А когда Путин сердится и топает ногой, в Индонезии трясется земля.  
Шамиль Басаев взорвал сам–себя, когда узнал истинное имя Путина.  
Когда Путин садится за руль автомобиля, его мощность увеличивается на 1000 л.с.  
Просмотр выступлений Владимира Путина способствует заживлению открытых ран быстрее в 4,7 десятых раза, чем просмотр программ телеканала "Звезда" их появлению!  
Путин замочил в сортире 144913 террористов и одного туалетного утенка (случайно, он потом выплатил родне компенсацию).  
Если обращение президента к избирателем прокрутить задом на перед, получится "Отче наш".  
По ночам, когда все спят, Путин объезжает города России на Вадике и убирает шпионские камни.  
У Путина есть костюм ниньзи.  
Путин создал группу Руки Вверх  
Путин назначил прокуратора Понтия Пилата. 
И лично снял его с занимаемой должности после одного громкого дела.  
Путин, как истинный Будда, совершенно не разбирается в деньгах. В них он видит только бумагу. Мороженщица подтвердит.  
Пойманным за руку чиновникам предлагают на выбор отставку или поединок с Путиным за должность президента.  
Каждый вечер Путин берет с полки Книгу Судеб и лично записывает туда все события грядущего дня. И когда он потом незримо включает микрофон — это не для того, чтобы послушать, о чем свистят два раздолбая… Это просто чтобы убедиться, что он, как обычно, все написал правильно. И убедившись в этом, он улыбается доброй отеческой улыбкой…  
Путин может в любой момент посмотреть вашими глазами и сказать вашим ртом.  
Фильм "Приключение Электроника" снят на основе реальных событий из жизни Владимира Путина.  
Если в пасмурном небе вы видите правильной формы небольшой просвет и оттуда светит солнце — значит, где–то рядом Путин.  
Путин лично спёр кольцо всевластья у одного американского Горлума, и с тех пор Саурон младший подчиняется его воле.  
Путин придумал якцупцоп.  
Номинал монеты, которую Путин достал из кефира — 100012341 рубль.  
Путин умеет ходить в интернет при помощи калькулятора.  
Путин вглядом сбил 15 американских спутников–шпионов, неосторожно пролетевших над Кремлём.  
Путин — агент Матрицы.  
Когда Путин инспектировал Стену Плача в Иерусалиме, Бог его шопотом попросил о каком–то одолжении.  
Когда Путину грустно, растет число самоубийств в целом по стране.  
Путин лично предотвратил 1065 Концов Света, в том числе самый страшный и неотвратимый Конец Света 06.06.06 года в 6 часов, 6 минут и 6 секунд.  
Когда Путину хорошо, самолеты разгоняют облака  
Путину не нравится, когда кто–то отвлеченными комментариями прерывает стройный рассказ он нем.  
Солнечные затмения случаются, когда Путин случайно поднимает взгляд.  
Для улучшения демографической ситуации, загримированный Путин играет главные роли в порнофильмах.  
Путин никогда не врет.  
Когда Путин идет в сауну, во всем городе кончается горячая вода.  
Создание клонов Путина строжайше запрещено, так как специальными исследованиями выяснено, что нескольких сверхгероев такой мощности планета не вынесет. Кстати, поэтому же Путин не может решить демографическую проблему в Росии, хоть и очень хочет этого.  
Путин не пользуется кроватями. Он спит, паря над землей на высоте человеческого роста.  
Путин одним усилием воли добавляет патриотизма в телевизионные передачи.  
Если Путина одолевает греховная страсть к детям, он никогда её не стесняется.  
В носу у Путина растут миниатюрные травы и цветы, опыляемые миниатюрными пчелками.  
Именно Путин является подлинным автором всех великих книг, за исключением книг о "Гарри Поттере", которые написала Кони.  
Известный фокусник Д. Копперфильд признался, что продал Путину душу  
Путину очень тяжело любить весь российский народ, а жить только с одной женой.  
Одно время Путин мимолетно увлекся рисованием акварелью. Инкогнито он выложил в интернет одну из своих картинок. Эта была та самая картинка, с закодированным посланием улучшать демографическую ситуацию и повышать культурный уровень нации.  
Комментарий о Путине прибавляет в среднем 20 очков брони, 15 здоровья и 1 кармы.  
Путин однажды продемонстрировал свою магическую мощь с помощью фаерболла миллионного уровня. Потом это назвали Тунгусским Метеоритом.  
наверняка на визитке у Путина написано "ВЛАДЫКА"  
Буш думает, что понял душу Путина. Он заблуждается.  
Прищурившись, Путин может читать и записывать на любой оптический носитель.  
Среди всех иконок в компьютере Путину больше всего нравится лопата.  
Любовь Путина к человечеству повышает среднегодовую температуру Земли на 2,35 градусов Цельсия в год — эффект, известный также под названием "глобального потепления".  
В полнолуние Путин не воет на луну. Это луна воет на Путина.

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## Alware

> Шамиль Басаев взорвал сам–себя, когда узнал истинное имя Путина.

   ::   ::   ::

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## adoc

> Мальчик, которого поцеловал Путин, научился летать.

 А я думал, он просто вживил в него миниатюрную камеру слежения.

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## Amaranta

::   I just love this article. 
If only for the not-so-politically-correct part. I seriously think that it is political correctness that caused the end of the Pax Americana.

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## mishau_

- Почему Путин и Патриарх при встрече всегда целуются?
- Потому что одной школы выходцы.

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## laxxy

> I just love this article. 
> If only for the not-so-politically-correct part. I seriously think that it is political correctness that caused the end of the Pax Americana.

 I don't see anything politically incorrect in that article, it's just stupid.
But I wonder what is this "Pax Americana", and when did it exactly end (or begin, for that matter).

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Amaranta    I just love this article. 
> If only for the not-so-politically-correct part. I seriously think that it is political correctness that caused the end of the Pax Americana.   I don't see anything politically incorrect in that article, it's just stupid.
> But I wonder what is this "Pax Americana", and when did it exactly end (or begin, for that matter).

 It derives from Pax Romana (Peace between nations within the Roman empire). Roman Peace. The author compares USA with the Roman Empire and alludes the fact they share the same fate.

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## laxxy

> Originally Posted by laxxy        Originally Posted by Amaranta    I just love this article. 
> If only for the not-so-politically-correct part. I seriously think that it is political correctness that caused the end of the Pax Americana.   I don't see anything politically incorrect in that article, it's just stupid.
> But I wonder what is this "Pax Americana", and when did it exactly end (or begin, for that matter).   It derives from Pax Romana (Peace between nations within the Roman empire). Roman Peace. The author compares USA with the Roman Empire and alludes the fact they share the same fate.

 Oh I know where it derives from. But, I asked about something different, didn't I?

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## Ramil

> Oh I know where it derives from. But, I asked about something different, didn't I?

 To answer your question - Pax Americana is the whole globe. (There ARE men who thinks more or less so). Fortunately, that's not true. Yet.

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## laxxy

> Originally Posted by laxxy  Oh I know where it derives from. But, I asked about something different, didn't I?   To answer your question - Pax Americana is the whole globe. (There ARE men who thinks more or less so). Fortunately, that's not true. Yet.

 Perhaps here we agree for once, on principle at least. But apparently Amaranta is of a different opinion, believing that it has been in place and somehow ended due to "political correctness".

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## Ramil

> Originally Posted by Ramil        Originally Posted by laxxy  Oh I know where it derives from. But, I asked about something different, didn't I?   To answer your question - Pax Americana is the whole globe. (There ARE men who thinks more or less so). Fortunately, that's not true. Yet.   Perhaps here we agree for once, on principle at least. But apparently Amaranta is of a different opinion, believing that it has been in place and somehow ended due to "political correctness".

 I'd agree with Amaranta in one thing. Political correctness and hypocricy for me is the same thing. Why should I twist my tongue and invent some "politically correct" words while there are already words that describe the thing? My attitude towards that thing would not change if I use politically correct word anyway so why bother?
There's more - by substituting the real words with the politically correct ones people add to hypocricy level in society. And that can be done harmlessly only to a certain level. I don't want to live in a world of hypocrites. 
Change the attitude, not words.

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## mekko

It seems that he has washed a lot of Oligarks/Capitalism there, but i really don't know if that is good for Russians or not after Chudorkovskij-tragedy.

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## Ramil

> It seems that he has washed a lot of Oligarks/Capitalism there, but i really don't know if that is good for Russians or not after Chudorkovskij-tragedy.

 Ходорковский you mean? Why tragedy? A thief has gone to jail. That's not a tragedy at all. (To him, perhaps, and some pro-western hypocrites).

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## Basil77

It's not a tragedy. It's a justice.  ::

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## basurero

> It's not a tragedy. It's _ justice.

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## kalinka_vinnie

Very selective justice, I might add   ::  I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent   ::

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## mishau_

> Very selective justice, I might add   I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent

 Особенно Прохоров со своими проститутками в Куршавеле.  ::

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## Scorpio

> Very selective justice, I might add   I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent

 All the other "New Russians", who are too far from innocence, are either in UK or in Israel.  ::

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## pisces

[quote=mishau_] 

> Very selective justice, I might add   I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent

 Особенно Прохоров со своими проститутками в Куршавеле.  :: [/quote:76qz74lx]
Я не знаю французских законов, но мне кажется, что если в его действиях был состав преступления, его следовало наказать на общих основаниях.
УК РФ не предусматривает наказания за пользование услугами проституток.

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## Scorpio

[quote=pisces] 

> Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":2fal1ujs  Very selective justice, I might add   I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent     Особенно Прохоров со своими проститутками в Куршавеле.

 Я не знаю французских законов, но мне кажется, что если в его действиях был состав преступления, его следовало наказать на общих основаниях.
УК РФ не предусматривает наказания за пользование услугами проституток.[/quote:2fal1ujs] 
Вообще-то, неплохо прежде всего доказать, что там вообще были какие-то проститутки, и Прохоров имел к ним какое-то отношение. А то ведь французское "правосудие" здесь облажалось немного.

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## Ramil

Я конечно могу ошибаться, последний раз во Франции был 4 года назад, но тогда проституция там была вроде как легализована...

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## Юрка

> Я конечно могу ошибаться, последний раз во Франции был 4 года назад, но тогда проституция там была вроде как легализована...

 Сутенёрство там наказуемо. Петю Листермана надо бы в кутузку.

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## mishau_

Кстати Путин еще раз подтведил, что мэры ответственны за сантехнику унитазов в каждом доме. Вот, очевидно, за это его и любят.

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## Юрка

> Кстати Путин еще раз подтведил, что мэры ответственны за сантехнику унитазов в каждом доме. Вот, очевидно, за это его и любят.

 Его любят за то, что он делает свою работу лучше, чем многие другие могли бы сделать на его месте.

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## mishau_

[quote=Юрка] 

> Кстати Путин еще раз подтведил, что мэры ответственны за сантехнику унитазов в каждом доме. Вот, очевидно, за это его и любят.

 Его любят за то, что он делает свою работу лучше, чем многие другие могли бы сделать на его месте.[/quote:zxd5ajlm] 
В смысле, лучше отвечает за сантехнику?

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## Basil77

> Very selective justice, I might add   I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent

 Yeah, selective, I'm not going to argue with you. But several thiefs in jail from thousands who deserves to be thrown there are better when no one.  ::

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## TATY

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Very selective justice, I might add   I am sure all the other "New Russians" are totally innocent     Yeah, selective, I'm not going to argue with you. But several thiefs in jail from thousands who deserves to be thrown there are better when no one.

 While that is true, it's not good for Putin/the government to be locking up just the ones that aren't there friends.

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## kalinka_vinnie

Hear, hear.  
When Khodorkovsky was arrested, I was in Russia at the time (purely by chance, I assure you). All the Russians I spoke to said nooo it wasn't for political purposes, so I asked why only him? Is he the only one? And they kept saying nooo, you just wait and see, he is only the first one. You gotta start somewhere! Well... I am still waiting...

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## mishau_

> I am still waiting...

 А это зависит от того, когда Англия Березовского выгонит и Израиль Гусинского.  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

ну да... а больше нету?  ::

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## mishau_

А больше и не надо, иначе будет раскулачивание. У все ваучеры назад потребуют.   ::

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## Basil77

Mr. Khoder made one big mistake - he thought that if he had so much money, he could play dirty games with the Holy Vertical of Power. He is paying now for that.

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## scotcher

[quote=mishau_] 

> I am still waiting...

 А это зависит от того, когда Англия Березовского выгонит и Израиль Гусинского.  :: [/quote:6tmcg80w] 
British courts legally can't extradite anyone to a country where he wouldn't receive a fair trial, or where the judiciary is not independent of central government, so the ball is really in Russia's court (pun intended) on that one.

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## Basil77

> British courts legally can't extradite anyone to a country where he wouldn't receive a fair trial, or where the judiciary is not independent of central government, so the ball is really in Russia's court (pun intended) on that one.

 If British courts were independent of central government, they would extradited such criminals like Berezovsky and Zakaev long time ago. The fact that they don't do that shows that they (the courts) can't do anything against the goverment's policy.

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## Ramil

[quote=scotcher] 

> Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":jz0v7wrr   I am still waiting...   А это зависит от того, когда Англия Березовского выгонит и Израиль Гусинского.

 British courts legally can't extradite anyone to a country where he wouldn't receive a *fair trial*, or where the judiciary is not independent of central government, so the ball is really in Russia's court (pun intended) on that one.[/quote:jz0v7wrr] 
And who would define what that "fair trial" thing means?
And technically (on paper), judiciary is independent of central government in Russia, but who decides whether Russian courts are corrupt or not? And by which criteria?
Or do British courts just rely on the UK's government opinion on the matter? In such case they cannot be defined as independent themselves.

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## scotcher

> Originally Posted by scotcher  British courts legally can't extradite anyone to a country where he wouldn't receive a fair trial, or where the judiciary is not independent of central government, so the ball is really in Russia's court (pun intended) on that one.   If British courts were independent of central government, they would extradited such criminals like Berezovsky and Zakaev long time ago. The fact that they don't do that shows that they (the courts) can't do anything against the goverment's policy.

 Heh. 
Even a cursory glance at the battles the Home Office has had with the courts when trying to extradite Islamic extremists such as Abu Hamza, or those Afgans who only got into the UK by hijacking an airliner, would show what nonsense your are talking. 
If the government can't extradite those people they really want and need to extradite, for whose extradition there is a great deal of public support, who have been convicted of crimes in the UK and contsitute a genuine threat to public safety, and who are wanted by the government's closest ally (in Hamza's case at least) with whom we have fast-track extradition treaties, then how much luck do you think they'd have pushing the courts to extradite people that no-one in the UK gives a stuff about, who aren't a danger to anybody, and who are wanted on obviously spurious charges by a country with a judicial system as laughable as Russia's? 
Get a grip lad.

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## scotcher

[quote=Ramil] 

> Originally Posted by mishau_        Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":2fg6x9cs   I am still waiting...   А это зависит от того, когда Англия Березовского выгонит и Израиль Гусинского.    British courts legally can't extradite anyone to a country where he wouldn't receive a *fair trial*, or where the judiciary is not independent of central government, so the ball is really in Russia's court (pun intended) on that one.

 And who would define what that "fair trial" thing means?
And technically (on paper), judiciary is independent of central government in Russia, but who decides whether Russian courts are corrupt or not? And by which criteria?
Or do British courts just rely on the UK's government opinion on the matter? In such case they cannot be defined as independent themselves.[/quote:2fg6x9cs] 
That would be for the judge to decide after hearing the legal arguments of both sides. And the arguments would focus soley on whether or not he would receive a fair trial, not on whether or not he is guilty. 
I'm not saying that the judgement was correct, just that there is no mechanism by which the UK government could interfere with it.

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## Ramil

So it's up to judge then?
And the judge, being a loyal citizen and experienced professional, would never issue a decree that goes wrong against the general policy of the government.

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## TATY

> Mr. Khoder made one big mistake - he thought that if he had so much money, he could play dirty games with the Holy Vertical of Power. He is paying now for that.

 But in reality you need lots of money and to be on good terms with someone like Putin.  :P

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## TATY

> So it's up to judge then?
> And the judge, being a loyal citizen and experienced professional, would never issue a decree that goes wrong against the general policy of the government.

 The general policy of the government is that the judge decides if the person will receive a fair trial in the home country. There is not a general policy of the British government that 'Russian courts are corupt, therefore you can't extradict anyone to Russia'. You will find other people have been extradicted to Russia by British courts. 
Also a judge in the UK can and will go against government policy if he sees fit. It is quite likely his own personal political beliefs differ from that of the current ruling party. 
I'm not saying the British courts are free from curruption, but everyone knows that Russian courts are more corrupt, you just won't admit it.

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## scotcher

> So it's up to judge then?
> And the judge, being a loyal citizen and experienced professional, would never issue a decree that goes wrong against the general policy of the government.

 Your clutching-at-straws is ammusing. Read the two links I posted earlier, they'll answer your question. 
Quite apart from the question of judicial independence though, why on Earth do you think the British government would _want_ to block Berezovsky and Zakaev's extradition back to Russia? What possible benefit does Britian, or, more cynically/ realistically, any specific member of the current government, get from providing those two with asylum?

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## mishau_

Возможно им удобно держать в Лондоне этих людей из-за того, что когда-то они придут к власти в России и дадут доступ Британцам к русским ресурсам.

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## Ramil

Yes, yes, I've read them.
All of that sounds pretty good. I just question judge's impartiality when his decision concerns politics. I can assume that he makes his decisions basing on his own free will but were there any cases in which courts had gone against the government when their decisions could influence the international politics and British interests abroad?
There must have been at least one such case in the history otherwise one can suppose that the British government has always been "holy" and haven't done anything wrong.

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## scotcher

> Yes, yes, I've read them.
> All of that sounds pretty good. I just question judge's impartiality when his decision concerns politics. I can assume that he makes his decisions basing on his own free will but were there any cases in which courts had gone against the government when their decisions could influence the international politics and British interests abroad?

 The courts regularly go against what the government wishes, but that is because the government's position isn't a factor in the decision. In fact, by convention, the government often doesn't even state its view on any given case until after the verdict is given.  
It is of course different when the government itself is either the defendent in a case, or has challenged the legality of a court's decision, or the court's interpretation of a law. In those cases the case would eventually go to the House of Lords (which acts as the highest court), but those cases are rare and are concerned with general points of law rather than  specific cases. 
Just to clarify. British judges are not appointed by the government, they cannot be dismissed or reprimanded by the government, their pay and conditions are not set by the government. And since any given judge can easily hold his position throughout the tenure of _many_ governments, formed by different political parties, so there's no question of loyalty to one of them either. 
Judges cannot make new laws or alter existing ones, they can only implement existing laws. The government, on the other hand, can only make and alter laws, they have no say in how they are implemented.   

> There must have been at least one such case in the history otherwise one can suppose that the British government has always been "holy" and haven't done anything wrong.

 One such case of what? Your question doesn't mean anything. It is not that they are all honest and squeeky-clean, it is that there is simply no mechanism by which a government can directly influence a court decision in that way. 
That does not mean that the government doesn't routinely change laws _in response_ to court decisions it doesn't like. It does that regularly. That is after the fact though, and so cannot be used to influence an individual case.  
It also doesn't mean that we have no bad laws. We do, lots of them, and one of them is what Berezovsky's lawyers used to hide behind: the EU Human Rights Act. The government may not like it, even the judge in question may not like it, but so long as it is on the legal books, the courts have to abide by it, end of story. The only way anyone could change it would be to repeal the Act, but that would have consequences way beyond a couple of Russian gangsters. 
Or that we have no bad judges who make bad decisions. We do, lots of them. Some of them are so old and out of touch you wouldn't believe some of the nonsense they come out with. It's their own nonsense though, and generally speaking the Bar Council and Law Society (sort of lawyer's and QC's proffessional associations who regulate judges) is pretty good at slapping any of them who do anything too ridiculous.

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## TATY

Yes, the fact is it is a European Union law which is preventing Berezovski's return to Russia, not a British one. What is the political gain Britain has on keeping him here anyway. Just to piss the Kremlin off a bit?

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## Ramil

> One such case of what? Your question doesn't mean anything. It is not that they are all honest and squeeky-clean, it is that there is simply no mechanism by which a government can directly influence a court decision in that way.

 Well I didn't say about mechanism. I thing there bound to be some unofficial methods of influence and persuasion. I'm not talking of the corruption or bribes...say the government's point of view on the matter is not a secret and I really doubt that the government cannot at least try some kind of a trick.
Moreover, I think that the labyrinths of the British law system make it possible to issue almost any decision upon any case and lawyers have means of manipulating the court into one decision or another.    

> Yes, the fact is it is a European Union law which is preventing Berezovski's return to Russia, not a British one. What is the political gain Britain has on keeping him here anyway. Just to piss the Kremlin off a bit?

 This too, among other things. Mainly just not to create a precedent. As far as I know the british immigration law is very tolerant to "political refugees". Berezovsky is not a dissident, whom he pretends to be, but a criminal.

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## laxxy

Yes, independent judiciary in the British (ie common law) system is probably the single hardest element of these societies for a typical ex-Soviet person to comprehend. I did not believe that this were even theoretically possible, lots of people still don't. And one does not even have to go to places Russia for comparisons -- simply getting across the channel would place one in quite a different environment, from what I heard. 
It does have many shortcomings, but yet, yes, it works, and yes, it is that independent. Although I do not expect any Russian here to really believe it -- it just runs too much in contrary to our experience. (although, think for a second about why, for example, is the Bush administration in the US taking such great effort to go around it in so many high-profile and reputation-damaging cases related to the "war on terror" -- e.g. would one even need to argue that it is necessary to conduct certain wiretaps without judicial approval if it were that easy to find a judge who would rubberstamp such decisions for the sake of "national security and public benefit"? Can you imagine such a public discussion in Russia?).  
In relatively simple cases common law also works much faster than a typical civil law system -- I've seen a paper where they studied how much time common civil cases (like eviction of a non-paying tenant) take to resolve in different countries, and the difference was quite striking. I suspect it gets worse (and much more expensive) as the cases become more complicated though.

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## scotcher

> Well I didn't say about mechanism. I thing there bound to be some unofficial methods of influence and persuasion. I'm not talking of the corruption or bribes...say the government's point of view on the matter is not a secret and I really doubt that the government cannot at least try some kind of a trick.

 What tricks are possible? What do you think they have over the judges? What loyalty do you think the judges owe to the serving government of the day, a government that might be gone tomorrow or next week? _Why_ do you think a judges would give a damn about the government's opinion on anything? You don't mean patriotism surely?  
At the very most, a senior government official might be able to have a 'quiet word' with a serving judge, but a) this would at least break the ministerial code of conduct, which would be political suicide, at most be actually illegal and so probably not worth it either way, and b) the judge would still have to act within the confines of the law anyway, since his judgement would be torn apart by the defense at the inevitable appeal. 
Other than that, the only way the British government can get him extradited is to take the case back to the high court themselves, but unless they could convince the judge that the facts are now somehow different to what they were originally, or unless berezovsky himself had done something in the meantime to breach the conditions under which he was granted asylum in the first place (I think he's come pretty close a couple of times, personally, but I'm not the CPS  ::  ), or unless the law has been changed in the meantime, it would have the same end result, and they would end up looking stupid. 
But in any event, that is looking at things back-to-front. The British government not being willing to interfere in a judicial matter is not the same as the British government deciding the outcome in the first place, which is the charge I keep reading not only here, but on Russian radio stations and in Russian newspapers time and again.   

> Moreover, I think that the labyrinths of the British law system make it possible to issue almost any decision upon any case and lawyers have means of manipulating the court into one decision or another.

 Laberynthine it may be, but there are lawyers on both sides, and you can bet your right arm the one defending Berezovsky earns a lot more than the one acting for the CPS. 
That is the probably the biggest complaint most people have with the British justice system at present: on balance, it tends to favour the defendent far too much (especially the human rights act), which is what Berezovsky was in this case.   

> This too, among other things.

 That says more about the state of your government than it says about the British one.   

> Mainly just not to create a precedent. As far as I know the british immigration law is very tolerant to "political refugees". Berezovsky is not a dissident, whom he pretends to be, but a criminal.

 Everybody knows that he is a criminal. I bet the judges that sat on his case know that. It doesn't alter the fact that it would be _illegal under current British law_  (any EU law that Britain ratifies automatically becomes British law) to extradite him. 
That's what "the rule of law" means. It is above government. You may be used to the law being a bit more maleable to those in power, but them's the facts. 
Interestingly, there is one person who does have the power to directly influence the case, or sack/ replace/ instruct a judge, or whatever. The Queen  ::

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## Ramil

> What tricks are possible? What do you think they have over the judges? What loyalty do you think the judges owe to the serving government of the day, a government that might be gone tomorrow or next week? _Why_ do you think a judges would give a damn about the government's opinion on anything? You don't mean patriotism surely?

 Have they tried blackmail yet? It usually helps.  ::    

> Interestingly, there is one person who does have the power to directly influence the case, or sack/ replace/ instruct a judge, or whatever. The Queen

 We'll have Putin to send her a poscard saying something nice then  ::

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## ST

анекдот на тему:   ::    _Референдум.
Вопрос: Не против ли вы того чтобы Путин снова был президентом?
1) Да, не против.
2) Нет, не против._

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## kalinka_vinnie

Thanks Scotcher, TATY and laxxy. I've been trying to tell our honorable forum members that the judges are independent, but they refused to believe me. At least you guys know more about the process than me. 
Hopefully the Russians realize that not all judicial systems have to be biased. 
Ramil, do you really believe that a random judge in Britian cares whether the government wants Berezovsky extradited or not? Besides, give me a good reason why the government would want to prevent the extridation in the first place... Surely not "to piss off Putin" ?

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## mishau_

Мне кажется решения насчет лиц такого масштаба как Березовский принимаются на уровне правительства.

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## Ramil

> Мне кажется решения насчет лиц такого масштаба как Березовский принимаются на уровне правительства.

 Это здесь от "масштабная фигура", там - очередной чудак на букву М из России.

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## TATY

Talking of extraditions, did you know the Russian Constitution forbids the extradition of its citizens from Russia?

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## Ramil

Russian citizens. Russia will extradict foreigners. Moreover, as far as I know, the international treaties take precedence over the constitution.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Мне кажется решения насчет лиц такого масштаба как Березовский принимаются на уровне правительства.

 Тебе кажется, но это вовсе не так.   ::

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## mishau_

[quote=kalinka_vinnie] 

> Мне кажется решения насчет лиц такого масштаба как Березовский принимаются на уровне правительства.

 Тебе кажется, но это вовсе не так.   :: [/quote:1j4fhtlb]
Мне кажется, ты работаешь в британском правительстве, коли у тебя такая уверенность, нет?  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

нет. но зато у меня здравый ум   ::

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## mishau_

Ну, это у всех у нас ума палаты.  ::

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## Lampada

> нет. но зато у меня здравый ум

 "У меня здравый ум" - мне почему-то не нравится это выражение. Но я не уверена, может быть, и можно так сказать.
 "Ума палаты" - тоже не нравится, никогда не слышала это выражение во множественное числе.
Оля!

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## Ramil

Я, имярек, находясь в *здравом уме* и трезвой памяти... 
Стандартная формулировка. Часто встречается в завещаниях и других нотариальных документах. 
Ума палата. 
Есть такое выражение. Напр. "У него ума палата" (he's very clever) но никогда не встречал во множ. числе. Скорее всего, не употребляется.

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## Lampada

> Я, имярек, находясь в *здравом уме* и трезвой памяти... 
> Стандартная формулировка. Часто встречается в завещаниях и других нотариальных документах.

 "Я, имярек, находясь в *здравом уме* и трезвой памяти..."  - в такой форме меня ничего не смущает.   ::

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## mishau_

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  нет. но зато у меня здравый ум     "У меня здравый ум" - мне почему-то не нравится это выражение. Но я не уверена, может быть, и можно так сказать.
>  "Ума палаты" - тоже не нравится, никогда не слышала это выражение во множественное числе.
> Оля!

 Если бы мы русский язык оценивали по принципу "нравится - не нравится", то Катя Туркина никогда бы не играла "на фортепьянах", Чапай никогда бы не кончал "академиев" или не было б таких поэтиццких строк  
"Меня медведь вскормила грудью"  (Волохонский). 
"Туда, где баловень болотного балета
На корточках сидит, надеждой не согрета."  (Волохонский). 
"Куриный суп, бывало, варишь
А в супе курица лежит
И сердце у тебя дрожит
И ты ей говоришь: Товарищь! -
Тамбовский волк тебе товарищ! " (Пригов) 
"Где в холодильнике пельмень, / Какую страстно поедаем" (Ким) 
"а вместо сердца пламенный морковь" (Цветков). 
"Но из душманов / любой Фарид отдаст мне свой медаль" (Еременко)"  http://www.levin.rinet.ru/ABOUT/zubova2.html  *УМА ПАЛАТЫ* http://www.dkvartal.ru/magazines/dk-ekb ... /umapalaty

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## Lampada

> Originally Posted by Lampada   "Ума палаты" - тоже не нравится, никогда не слышала это выражение во множественное числе.   *УМА ПАЛАТЫ* http://www.dkvartal.ru/magazines/dk-ekb ... /umapalaty

 Там не об уме речь, а выражение "ума палаты" употребляется для шутки в разговоре об "умных" домах, где _палаты_ (помещения, комнаты) устроены особым образом.  Пример:  дом Била Гейтца. 
Во всех твоих примерах языковые неправильности были сделаны авторами умышленно, для колорита.    
Когда я говорю "мне не нравится", я имею в виду что, как мне кажется, имеется какая-то грамматическая ошибка, а как обосновать своё мнение, не знаю.

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## mishau_

Слово "палата" в старом русском языке означало большое помещение в каменном здании. Потом это слово стало применяться к различным учреждениям, помещавшимся в таких обширных строениях: Оружейная палата, Грановитая палата... Обычно в таких палатах государственные люди, бояре, а позднее чиновники “думали думу”. Выражение ума палата как раз и рисует такого человека, у которого ум, разум равен целому собранию мудрецов. *Однако в настоящее время это выражение приобрело иронический смысл,* чаще так говорят о глупцах, чем об умных людях.

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## mishau_

Давеча на мобильник пришёл сей спам. 
Частушка (про Путина) 
Путин едет по стране
Hа серебрянном коне
Путин всем людям поможет
Дай ему здоровья, Боже! 
Всех бандитов перебьёт
Работягам он нальёт
Всё построит и починит,
Если надо - лично двинет 
Он борцовскою рукой... Ой!
Путин едет по стране,
А мы, по-прежнему /***/...

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## Bisquit

Насколько я помню, это частушка Шевчука.

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## pisces

> Давеча на мобильник пришёл сей спам. 
> Частушка (про Путина) 
> Путин едет по стране
> Hа серебрянном коне
> Путин всем людям поможет
> Дай ему здоровья, Боже! 
> Всех бандитов перебьёт
> Работягам он нальёт
> Всё построит и починит,
> ...

 Очень хорошая и правильная частушка. Мораль ее такова: каждый, кто вместо того, чтобы работать, будет критиковать власть, будет по-прежнему /***/...  ::

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## mishau_

> Очень хорошая и правильная частушка. Мораль ее такова: каждый, кто вместо того, чтобы работать, будет критиковать власть, будет по-прежнему /***/...

 Как говорится, работуй, не работуй, все равно получишь... кий!  ::

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