# Forum About Russia Politics  Russia today - new TV channel

## Welf

I ve heard recently about new TV channel in english telling news from Russian point of view and about intire news as well.  I wonder who will watch it and how popular it will be? For example, will *you* watch such channel? I'd like to know your opinion about this.

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## kalinka_vinnie

I would!
I think it is important to view the world as Russians do, in order to understand their extremely weird mentality fully   ::  . I mean, they come here and claim Stalin was a great guy after all, I mean wtf!   ::

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## Dogboy182

> I would!
> I think it is important to view the world as Russians do, in order to understand their extremely weird mentality fully   . I mean, they come here and claim Stalin was a great guy after all, I mean wtf!

 
Stalin tansformed Russia from a nation of pesants to the only world superpower that could challenge the USA. And well if 50 million Russians had to die in the process... well what are you gunna do?

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## BlackMage

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  I would!
> I think it is important to view the world as Russians do, in order to understand their extremely weird mentality fully   . I mean, they come here and claim Stalin was a great guy after all, I mean wtf!     
> Stalin tansformed Russia from a nation of pesants to the only world superpower that could challenge the USA. And well if 50 million Russians had to die in the process... well what are you gunna do?

 Stalin transformed Russia from a nation of peasants into a nation of peasants with a nuclear arsenal. :P

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## Lampada

> Stalin transformed Russia from a nation of peasants into a nation of peasants with a nuclear arsenal. :P

   ::

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## Welf

> And well if 50 million Russians had to die in the process... well what are you gunna do?

 50 million? let's play a game "who will say more?"  ::   
and back to the real topic...this TV channel is simply Kremlin cr@p, don't watch it!

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## kalinka_vinnie

I guess it would be just like watching Fox channel news?

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## FL

> Stalin transformed Russia from a nation of peasants into a nation of peasants with a nuclear arsenal. :P

 The picture and the true USSR of the 1960-80s are quite unlike. 
The population of the villages was thinning down that so many people were going to the cities. So many villages were vanishing so called «неперспективные деревни» (unpromising villages).
In 1980s there was even whole tendency in the art (books, movies) to plaint about the vanishing peasantry.

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## Scorpio

Agree with FL. There's not so much "peasants" remain in today's Russia. (The village population reduced much in 60-70's, and still going down; in villages birth rate is even less, than in cities, AFAIK).
And about "50 mln victims": this old lie is not only dead, but almost decomposed.

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Agree with FL. There's not so much "peasants" remain in today's Russia. (The village population reduced much in 60-70's, and still going down; in villages birth rate is even less, than in cities, AFAIK).
> And about "50 mln victims": this old lie is not only dead, but almost decomposed.

 I remember this discussion, only it was in Russian  ::  
It is strange the the birthrate is lower in the villages than in the cities, it has always been opposite in most countries! It is usually in the villages people have more children, a factor from education, availability of prevention (and abortion), social structure and, believe it or not, time! People have more time in villages to raise children than the busy cityslickers!  ::  But, I agree that the there is a net decrease in population, becaue everybody moves to the city, but I don't think it is related to birth rate!

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## Paxan

2Dogboy182
 "And well if 50 million Russians had to die in the process... well what are you gunna do" 
Что за ересь,вообще? Сам-то понял,что сказал?

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## FL

http://df5.ecfor.rssi.ru/weekly/2005/0197/barom01.php
"
Доля городского населения в странах Содружества Независимых Государств, по данным переписей и текущего учета, %   
"
==========================================  http://old.polit.ru/documents/441025.html
"
Численности всего, городского и сельского населения России, 1897-2001, в миллионах человек
(только РСФСР)  
"  http://www.perepis2002.ru/?id=7
"
Уровень рождаемости - показатель среднего числа детей, рожденных одной женщиной в течение репродуктивного периода - составлял в 2002г. в сельской местности 1,5 ребенка, в городских поселениях - 1,25. Средняя продолжительность жизни в сельской местности составляла 63,4 года (для мужчин - 57,1, для женщин - 71,3) в городских поселениях - 65,3 года (для мужчин - 59,0, для женщин - 72,3). 
Средний возраст городских мужчин составил 33,9 года, женщин - 39,8 года, сельских - соответственно 34,6 года и 39,9 года. 
" 
Про рождаемость еще другой параметр есть: количество рождений на 1 000 чел. в год. Этот показатель в городе может быть выше, т. к. в сельской местности больше людей пенсионного возраста.  
Например, про Тюменскую область пишут:
"Несмотря на общую тенденцию низкой рождаемости, проявившуюся и 
в городе, и в селе, сельское население, начиная с 1997 года, утратило традиционное преимущество перед городскими жителями по числу рождений на 1 000 населения.
"

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## FL

"Доля городского населения возросла в целом по СССР с 32% в 1939 г. до 48% в 1959 г., составив 62% в 1979 г. и 66% — в 1989 г.Однако в РСФСР, например, доля городского населения возросла с 33% в 1939 г. до 74% в 1989 г., а в Таджикской ССР — с 17% в 1939 г. до 37% в 1970 г., но затем снизилась до 33% в 1989 г. из-за более быстрого прироста сельского населения. " 
А внутри России тоже всё разнится сильно:
"Соотношение городского и сельского населения в России (1991-1997 гг.)" http://www.i-u.ru/biblio/archive/simagi ... nosheniye/

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## FL

http://df5.ecfor.rssi.ru/weekly/2005/0197/barom04.php 
==========================================   
Рисунок 9. Коэффициент суммарной рождаемости в городских и сельских поселениях Белоруссии, Грузии, России и Украины, 1958-2002, детей на одну женщину 
=========================================   
Рисунок 10. Коэффициент суммарной рождаемости в городских и сельских поселениях Азербайджана, Армении, Казахстана и Молдавии, 1958-2002, детей на одну женщину 
=========================================   
Рисунок 11. Коэффициент суммарной рождаемости в городских и сельских поселениях Киргизии, Узбекистана, Таджикистана и Туркмении, 1958-2002, детей на одну женщину

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## kalinka_vinnie

So, if I am reading your graphs right, the birthrate in the villages are higher than in the cities, right? Well, glad we got that sorted out. 
Now, how many people got purged by Stalin?   ::

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## JB

In Dmitrov we have a large cross next to the Moscow Canal in memory of all the people who died building the canal from 1932-1937. Our city museum has a display of artifacts and pictures also. The pictures show the people digging the canal with hand picks and shovels. They were slave labor from the gulag in our region and in the pictures they are wearing only rags and are working barefoot, without gloves or coats. They are men and women of all ages including the very old. They died by the thousands.

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## Welf

потрясающе, название топика полностью отражает его содержание  ::    http://www.russiatoday.ru

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## Scorpio

Thanks to FL! Interesting charts!   

> So, if I am reading your graphs right, the birthrate in the villages are higher than in the cities, right? Well, glad we got that sorted out.

 Yes, it is higher, but, alas, not much. Looks more like the urban population is slowly decreasing, the rural population remains more-less constant -- not so much reasons for optimism. ;(   

> Now, how many people got purged by Stalin?

 So, how many? Do you see "Stalin's purges" on these charts? I can't. What can I clearly see, are the great famine (1932-33) and the great War (1940-47). In the time of "purges", surprisingly, the population was only growing.  ::  
Here is a couple of different picts from different source -- www.demoscope.ru. Look of the people aging hystograms from 1982 and 2002:     
So, what can we see here? On both hystograms, I clearly can see the huge population decay, related to to the great war (2002-60 = 1942) and to the famine in the beginning in 30's (2002-70 = 1932). Also the "secondary demographic anti-wave" of the War is evident (the people aged near 35), and the dire consequences of the new "democratic regime" (10 years and lower). 
And, alas, not a trace of "these horrible purges".  ::

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## JB

So has anybody seen the Russia Today programs? I saw the news story on it on NTV a few weeks ago but I'm in the US now and can't find it on any cable station. The web link doesn't say what stations or venues in America will broadcast it. Does anyone know how to get this channel?

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  Now, how many people got purged by Stalin?     So, what can we see here? On both hystograms, I clearly can see the huge population decay, related to to the great war (2002-60 = 1942) and to the famine in the beginning in 30's (2002-70 = 1932). Also the "secondary demographic anti-wave" of the War is evident (the people aged near 35), and the dire consequences of the new "democratic regime" (10 years and lower). 
> And, alas, not a trace of "these horrible purges".

 I love pretty charts! And these are very pretty!!   ::  
I don't totally agree with your conclusions Scorpio, but then again, if I did, it would be a boring discussion! 
(2002-60 = 1942) is correct, but what does that mean? It means that less people _were born_ that year. The actually killing of the population would probably be evenly spread out over the 76+ ages. Same goes with the famine (what caused it can also be discussed), less people were born at that time, while the people who died of it is spread over a large spectrum.  
Anyway to the purges. Note I said purge, meaning removing unwanted elements from the government. The height of it was in 1937-1938 
For example the trial of the 21 in March 1938. the chief accused at the final trial were Alexei Rykov, Nikolai Ivanovich Bukharin, Nikolai Krestinsky, Christian Rakovsky, and Genrikh Yagoda. Other accused were Arkady Rosengoltz, Vladimir Ivanov, Mikhail Chernov, Grigori Grinko, Isaac Zelensky, Akmal Ikramov, Faizulla Khodjayev, Vasili Sharangovich, Prokopy Zubarev, Pavel Bulanov, Lev Levin, Ignaty Kazakov, Veyamin Maximov-Dikovsky, Pyotr Kryuchkov, Pletnev and Bessonov. They were all proclaimed members of the "right trotskist bloc" that intended to overthrow communism and restore capitalism in Russia, among other things.   
Berias letter to Stalin to execute 346 people 
The whole deportation thing is another story...

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## FL

> (2002-60 = 1942) is correct, but what does that mean? It means that less people _were born_ that year. The actually killing of the population would probably be evenly spread out over the 76+ ages. Same goes with the famine (what caused it can also be discussed), less people were born at that time, while the people who died of it is spread over a large spectrum. ...

 "
Расчет людских потерь Советского Союза в Великой Отечественной войне 
(22 июня 1941 г. - 31 декабря 1945 г.)  
Порядок расчета Млн. чел. 
Численность населения СССР на 22.06.1941 г. 196,7 
Численность населения СССР на 31.12.1945 г. 170,5 
(В т.ч. родившиеся до 22.06.1941 г. 159,5 )
Общая убыль населения из числа живших на 22.06.1941 г. (196,7 млн. - 159,5 млн. = 37,2 млн. чел.) 37,2 
Количество умерших детей по причине повышенной смертности (из числа родившихся в годы войны) 1,3 
Умерло бы населения в мирное время, исходя из уровня смертности 1940 г. 11,9 
Общие людские потери СССР в результате войны (37,2 млн. + 1,3 млн. - 1 1,9 млн. = 26,6 млн. чел.) 26,6  
Расчет выполнен Управлением демографической статистики Госкомстата СССР в ходе работы в составе комплексной комиссии по уточнению числа людских потерь Советского Союза в Великой Отечественной войне. - Мобуправление ГОМУ Генштаба ВС РФ, д. 142, 1991 г., инв. № 04504, л. 250.   http://soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter5_05.html 
По военнослужащим:
“
По возрасту жертвами войны среди павших оказались в основном, самые молодые и дееспособные люди. Их в числе 8,7 млн. погибших, умерших от ран и болезни и не вернувшихся из плена военнослужащих было более 6,4 млн. человек. Все безвозвратные потери по возрасту характеризуются следующими показателями:
20 лет и моложе 1560,3 тыс. чел. - (18 %), 
21-25 лет 1907,0 тыс. чел. - (22 %), 
26-30 лет 1517,0 тыс. чел. - (17,5 %), 
31-35 лет 1430,3 тыс. чел. - (16,5 %).
--------------------------------------------------- 
Итого 6 млн. 414,6 тыс. чел. - (74 %).
36-40 лет 1040,2 тыс. чел. - (12 %),
41-45 лет 693,5 тыс. чел. - (8 %),
46-50 лет 433,4 тыс. чел. - (5 %),
51 год и старше 86,7 тыс. чел. - (1 %)
---------------------------------------------------
И т о г о 2 млн. 253,8 тыс. чел. - (26 %).
“ http://soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/chapter5_03.html
По гражданским лицам – молодежь, угнанная на работы в Германию:
«
Из общего числа советских граждан, насильственно вывезенных на работы в Германию (5269513 чел.), после окончания войны было репатриировано на Родину 2654100 чел. Не возвратились по разным причинам и стали эмигрантами - 451100 чел. Остальные 2164313 чел. погибли и умерли в фашистской неволе. Причинами высокой смертности среди остарбайтеров являлись каторжный труд, плохое питание и жестокие наказания за малейшие отклонения от лагерного режима.
“
Одним из первых столкновений «холодной войны» было нарушение властями США, Англии и Франции договора о репатриации. Они задержали (не только пропагандой, но многих и силой) 451,5 тыс. человек «невозвращенцев», которые составили «вторую эмиграцию» из СССР.
"  

> Anyway to the purges. Note I said purge, meaning removing unwanted elements from the government. The height of it was in 1937-1938 
> For example the trial of the 21 in March 1938. the chief accused at the final trial were Alexei Rykov, Nikolai Ivanovich Bukharin, Nikolai Krestinsky, Christian Rakovsky, and Genrikh Yagoda. Other accused were Arkady Rosengoltz, Vladimir Ivanov, Mikhail Chernov, Grigori Grinko, Isaac Zelensky, Akmal Ikramov, Faizulla Khodjayev, Vasili Sharangovich, Prokopy Zubarev, Pavel Bulanov, Lev Levin, Ignaty Kazakov, Veyamin Maximov-Dikovsky, Pyotr Kryuchkov, Pletnev and Bessonov. They were all proclaimed members of the "right trotskist bloc" that intended to overthrow communism and restore capitalism in Russia, among other things.   
> Berias letter to Stalin to execute 346 people 
> The whole deportation thing is another story...

 What do you mean by the purges? 
And what conclusions would be coming from that?
They are only part of  the peak 1937-1938:
"
Число осужденных за контрреволюционные и другие
особо опасные государственные преступления 
Год высшая
мера  
1921 9701
1922 1962
1923 414
1924 2550
1925 2433
1926 990
1927 2363
1928 869
1929 2109
1930 20201
1931 10651
1932 2728
1933 2154
1934 2056
1935 1229
1936 1118
1937 353074
1938 328618
1939 2552
1940 1649
1941 8011
1942 23278
1943 3579
1944 3029
1945 4252
1946 2896
1947 1105
1948 - 
1949 8
1950 475
1951 1609
1952 1612
1953 198 
Итого 799455 
Под "прочими мерами" имеется в виду зачет времени нахождения под стражей, принудительное лечение и высылка за границу. За 1953 год приведены сведения только за первое полугодие. 
Из этой таблицы следует, что "репрессированных" было несколько больше, чем указано в приведенной выше докладной на имя Хрущева - 799.455 осужденных к высшей мере вместо 642.980 и 2.634.397 приговоренных к заключению вместо 2.369.220. Однако разница эта относительно невелика - цифры одного порядка. 
Кроме того, есть еще один момент - очень даже возможно, что в приведенную таблицу "затесалось" изрядное количество уголовников. Дело в том, что на одной из хранящихся в архиве справок, на основании которых составлена эта таблица, имеется карандашная помета: "Всего осужденных за 1921-1938 гг. - 2944879 чел., из них 30% (1062 тыс.) - уголовники"23. В таком случае общее количество "репрессированных" не превышает 3 миллионов. Однако чтобы окончательно прояснить этот вопрос, необходима дополнительная работа с источниками. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Pa ... epress.htm
" 
================================= 
Number of the ministers is micro amount in comparison with the whole nation.
If you are interested in these personalias: 
See here http://mos.memo.ru/
Click «С» then “Серафимовича ул.”, д. 2 
Then seach on the page: Рыков Зеленский Зубарев Чернов    
This is House of the government (Famous “House on the Embankment” on the opposite side of the river from Kremlin).  http://www.domna.ru/libra/press/07.htm

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## N

> For example the trial of the 21 in March 1938. the chief accused at the final trial were Alexei Rykov, Nikolai Ivanovich Bukharin, Nikolai Krestinsky, Christian Rakovsky, and Genrikh Yagoda. Other accused were Arkady Rosengoltz, Vladimir Ivanov, Mikhail Chernov, Grigori Grinko, Isaac Zelensky, Akmal Ikramov, Faizulla Khodjayev, Vasili Sharangovich, Prokopy Zubarev, Pavel Bulanov, Lev Levin, Ignaty Kazakov, Veyamin Maximov-Dikovsky, Pyotr Kryuchkov, Pletnev and Bessonov. They were all proclaimed members of the "right trotskist bloc" that intended to overthrow communism and restore capitalism in Russia, among other things.   
> Berias letter to Stalin to execute 346 people

 What is the point?  
In this particular case the Politburo sanction was required because NKVD could do nothing against a member of Poliburo without such a sanction. (Alexei Rykov, Nikolai Bukharin were Politburo members).

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## kalinka_vinnie

Oh, great, the old overload KV with Russian text trick! It works everytime! lol!  ::   *@N*, no point. I put that there in case somebody would dispute the fact of the purges. Nobody did, effect acheived.  ::   *@FL* Thanks for the overload, dude!   ::  What I meant by purge was this: 
The term "purge" in Soviet political slang was an abbreviation of the expression purge of the Party ranks. In 1933, for example, some 400,000 people were expelled from the Party. But from 1936 until 1953 the term changed its meaning, because being expelled from the Party came to mean almost certain arrest, imprisonment or even execution..   http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Great_Purge 
More from that link 
The purge of the Red Army was supported by fabricated evidence that German counter-intelligence had introduced through an intermediary, President Beneš of Czechoslovakia. This forged evidence purported to show correspondence between Marshal Tukhachevsky and members of the German high command. However the actual evidence introduced at trial was obtained from forced confessions. The purge of the army removed 3 of 5 marshals, 13 of 15 army generals, 8 of 9 admirals (the purge fell heavily on the Navy who were suspected of exploiting their opportunity for foreign contacts), 50 of 57 army corps generals, 154 out of 186 division generals, 16 of 16 army commissars, and 25 of 28 army corps commissars. 
- But fine lets use your list "of people who were condemned for counterrevolutionist activities and other specially dangerous government crimes" (BTW, what does this mean? Is this a list over ALL condemned people at that time? It seems too specific to capture all)
 = "Число осужденных за контрреволюционные и другие особо опасные государственные преступления" 
Hard to believe that Stalin was justified in killing 800 000 people under the pretext that they were all counter-revolutionists (and what does that really mean?). And this is using information from a website that even has the banner "For Stalin!" (за Сталина), hardly an un-biased collection of data. 
And even with this data, you deny that there was a purge??? That Stalin was a great leader? Tell me if I am hitting a nerve yet   ::  .

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## N

> The term "purge" in Soviet political slang was an abbreviation of the expression purge of the Party ranks. In 1933, for example, some 400,000 people were expelled from the Party. But from 1936 until 1953 the term changed its meaning, because being expelled from the Party came to mean almost certain arrest, imprisonment or even execution..

 Where did the term change its meaning? On the West? In SU it didn't. Purges were purges and repression were repressions.   

> Hard to believe that Stalin was justified in killing 800 000 people under the pretext that they were all counter-revolutionists (and what does that really mean?). And this is using information from a website that even has the banner "For Stalin!" (за Сталина), hardly an un-biased collection of data. 
> And even with this data, you deny that there was a purge??? That Stalin was a great leader? Tell me if I am hitting a nerve yet   .

 If you are that interested in this story and do not want to discuss it on "детсадовском" level then let me to recommend a book http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1555105/
In my opinion it is a thorough examination on the mechanism of power in Stalin time that was done by scrupulous scholar.

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## kalinka_vinnie

Can one buy russian books and have them ship it to USA? 
I don't know if I am ready for the scholary Russian language yet! 
BTW, the meaning officially didn't change in SU, they called it the same. All they were saying is that before purging meant only being expelled from the Party, while later it meant arrest and Siberia/target practice

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## N

> BTW, the meaning officially didn't change in SU, they called it the same.

 Who are they?  

> All they were saying is that before purging meant only being expelled from the Party, while later

 это - чистки  

> it meant arrest and Siberia/target practice

 это - репрессии 
Those very words were used in offical soviet documents at that time.

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## Scorpio

> (2002-60 = 1942) is correct, but what does that mean? It means that less people _were born_ that year. The actually killing of the population would probably be evenly spread out over the 76+ ages. Same goes with the famine (what caused it can also be discussed), less people were born at that time, while the people who died of it is spread over a large spectrum.

 Correction accepted. Yes, for example, in the War the people of allmost all  ages from 16 to 70 were dying -- the decrease of birth rate, is, actually *secondary* effect (of course, more men/women died -- means less babies were born). But even this secondary effect is more than evident from the charts!   

> Anyway to the purges. Note I said purge, meaning removing unwanted elements from the government. The height of it was in 1937-1938 
> For example the trial of the 21 in March 1938. the chief accused at the final trial were Alexei Rykov, Nikolai Ivanovich Bukharin, Nikolai Krestinsky, Christian Rakovsky, and Genrikh Yagoda. Other accused were Arkady Rosengoltz, Vladimir Ivanov, Mikhail Chernov, Grigori Grinko, Isaac Zelensky, Akmal Ikramov, Faizulla Khodjayev, Vasili Sharangovich, Prokopy Zubarev, Pavel Bulanov, Lev Levin, Ignaty Kazakov, Veyamin Maximov-Dikovsky, Pyotr Kryuchkov, Pletnev and Bessonov. They were all proclaimed members of the "right trotskist bloc" that intended to overthrow communism and restore capitalism in Russia, among other things.

 Did I deny any of this? Of course not! However, now we are talking not about "millions of innocent victims" -- but about 346 former government, party, military and NKVD officials. In 1938 they became the victims -- but a couple of years ago they were amongst the organizers and directors of the repressions. So, even if they are victims, they aren't so innocent, at least, for me.
I think you have some knowledge of european history -- and especially, history of the French revolution. I always was impressed, how similar were events happening in the Soviet Union in 1930's and in France in 1790's. The absolutely same scheme: Revolution -> terror against open enemies -> terror against hidden enemies -> terror against revolutionaries themselves.
So, what was happening, was an *objective process* -- this will happen with Stalin or without. "Revolution is eating its own shildren".

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## FL

I am agree that was an *objective historical process*. 
It will be one more overload but I think it is interesting to read original texts of the trial and other materials concerned with it in the same form as the people of that time read it. 
Issues of the newspaper “Pravda” 3-5 March, 1938 (“Pravda” was national newspaper number one in the USSR and published all important official press-releases). 
3 МАРТА 1938г. П Р А В Д А. http://oldgazette.ru/pravda/03031938/index1.html
5 МАРТА 1938г. П Р А В Д А. http://oldgazette.ru/pravda/05031938/index1.html 
One of the materials is :
"Свора кровавых собак" (М.Кольцов) - репортаж из зала суда.
"Murderous doggery" (M. Koltsov) - reporting from the trial room. 
Koltsov’s article is of special interest because of his following fate:
Arrested 14 December 1938, executed 2 February 1940, rehabilitated 18.12.1954.
Accusation: the same like “Murderous doggery” had. http://www.memo.ru/memory/donskoe/d40.htm#_DNI_2375 
I don’t want to say anything bad about Mikhail Koltsov. He was famous journalist and respected public figure and made many for the USSR (he fought against Fascists in Spain).
His this article is part of the same *objective historical process*.

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## FL

To the point:
Have you seen soviet movies on the subject like “Верьте мне, люди» (1964), «Чистое небо» (1961), «Завтра была война» (1987)? 
Or «Люди и звери» (1962) about Soviet displaced persons. 
Though, it demands special knowledge about the theme to understand the movies well. 
In 1960s they were very popular.  http://popsa.info/cgi-bin/ikonboard/top ... &topic=106 
Leaders in the distribution, year
movie's audience, million  *Лидеры проката 1961 года* 
· Полосатый рейс 45.8 млн. зрителей. 
· *Чистое небо 41.3 млн. зрителей.* 
· Две жизни 41.3 млн. зрителей. 
· Осторожно, бабушка 40.3 млн. зрителей. 
· Балтийское небо 38.6 млн. зрителей. 
· Битва в пути 38.3 млн. зрителей. 
· Операция "Кобра 34.6 млн. зрителей. 
· Евдокия 34.4 млн. зрителей. 
· Гулящая 27.8 млн. зрителей. 
· Чужая беда 24.7 млн. зрителей. 
· Казаки 24.3 млн. зрителей.   *Лидеры проката 1962 года* 
· Человек-амфибия 65.5 млн. зрителей. 
· Гусарская баллада 48.64 млн. зрителей. 
· *Люди и звери 40.33 млн. зрителей.* 
· Девчата 34.8 млн. зрителей. 
· Среди добрых людей 30.1 млн. зрителей.   *Лидеры проката 1965 года* 
· Операция "Ы" и другие приключения Шурика 69.6 млн. зрителей. 
· *Верьте мне, люди 40.3 млн. зрителей.* 
· Государственный преступник 39.5 млн. зрителей. 
· Свет далекой звезды 36.2 млн. зрителей. 
· Как вас теперь называть? 36.2 млн. зрителей. 
· Какое оно, море? 35 млн. зрителей. 
· Председатель 33 млн. зрителей.

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## FL

> Hard to believe that Stalin was justified in killing 800 000 people under the pretext that they were all counter-revolutionists (and what does that really mean?). And this is using information from a website that even has the banner "For Stalin!" (за Сталина), hardly an un-biased collection of data. 
> And even with this data, you deny that there was a purge??? That Stalin was a great leader? Tell me if I am hitting a nerve yet   .

 “counterrevolutionist activities and other specially dangerous government crimes" is Article 58 (RSFSR Penal Code)
see your link http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Ar ... al_Code%29  
799.455 includes some criminals (30% criminals in one of the documents which were included in this summary). Most likely real amount is close to 642.980.
Of course, those who really practiced this “counterrevolutionist activities and other specially dangerous government crimes" is a few percents in the number. Most of them were completely rehabilitated in 1950s after Stalin's death. 
That Stalin was a great leader?
Undoubtedly, he was a great leader; and yes, there are many misdeed on his conscience.

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## kalinka_vinnie

I hate to say this but "В "Известиях" нет правды, в "Правде" нет известий".   ::   When I get some more time, I will read them thoroughly, though. Thanks for the excellent site!  
I haven't seen those movies, but can one really trust a movie released in the 60s, with the blessing of the soviet government? I am just thinking in terms of objectivity... 
So the claim is that only 346 people were purged, Scorpio? The "millions of innocent victims" is a differnt stories. then we talk about repressions. For example (taken from FL's link http://www.memo.ru/memory/disc04/prelease.htm): "В базе данных объединены сведения о жертвах репрессий из России (62 региона), Казахстана, Узбекистана, Украины. Среди более чем 1 300 000 имен - представители 120 национальностей, уроженцы всех областей бывшего СССР и многих зарубежных стран. Значительная часть информации до сих пор никогда не публиковалась."  But this is a whole different topic! 
N, you seem to misunderstand me, we are arguing over semantics. The point was that they didn't usally execute the people they arrested until later. that's it.

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## Scorpio

> I haven't seen those movies, but can one really trust a movie released in the 60s, with the blessing of the soviet government? I am just thinking in terms of objectivity...

 H-mm, I wonder, what these movies have to deal with the point of discussion. But, anyway: there is the "blessing of the soviet government" in the comedies like "Полосатый рейс"?  :: 
(If you didn't see this movie, I'll recommend to -- very funny)   

> So the claim is that only 346 people were purged, Scorpio?

 Of course, not! We were discussing a concrete document which confirms Stalin's and Beria's responsibility for 346 victims. My point was: almost nobody of them is innocent. And many were, actually, responsible for the terror of previous years -- for example, Yagoda of Yezhov...   

> The "millions of innocent victims" is a differnt stories. then we talk about repressions. For example (taken from FL's link http://www.memo.ru/memory/disc04/prelease.htm): "В базе данных объединены сведения о жертвах репрессий из России (62 региона), Казахстана, Узбекистана, Украины. Среди более чем 1 300 000 имен - представители 120 национальностей, уроженцы всех областей бывшего СССР и многих зарубежных стран. Значительная часть информации до сих пор никогда не публиковалась."  But this is a whole different topic!

 _OK, let me quote: 
состоялось представление нового электронного издания 
ЖЕРТВЫ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКОГО ТЕРРОРА В СССР 
В базе данных объединены сведения о жертвах репрессий из России (62 региона), Казахстана, Узбекистана, Украины. Среди более чем 1 300 000 имен - представители 120 национальностей, уроженцы всех областей бывшего СССР и многих зарубежных стран. Значительная часть информации до сих пор никогда не публиковалась._ 
So, their edition is entitled "VICTIMS OF POLITICAL TERROR IN USSR"? (Not the "victims of Stalin's purges" or something alike?)
And "Memorial" (working for 15 years, having complete access to all open archives) finally found 1 300 000 victims *for entire lifetime of the USSR*? 
Thanks for the link, Kalinka.  ::

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## kalinka_vinnie

> H-mm, I wonder, what these movies have to deal with the point of discussion. But, anyway: there is the "blessing of the soviet government" in the comedies like "Полосатый рейс"? 
> (If you didn't see this movie, I'll recommend to -- very funny)

 I'll take note of that movie. I love funny Russian movies  ::  
Dunno what the other movies were for...   

> _OK, let me quote: 
> состоялось представление нового электронного издания 
> ЖЕРТВЫ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКОГО ТЕРРОРА В СССР 
> В базе данных объединены сведения о жертвах репрессий из России (62 региона), Казахстана, Узбекистана, Украины. Среди более чем 1 300 000 имен - представители 120 национальностей, уроженцы всех областей бывшего СССР и многих зарубежных стран. Значительная часть информации до сих пор никогда не публиковалась._ 
> So, their edition is entitled "VICTIMS OF POLITICAL TERROR IN USSR"? (Not the "victims of Stalin's purges" or something alike?)
> And "Memorial" (working for 15 years, having complete access to all open archives) finally found 1 300 000 victims *for entire lifetime of the USSR*? 
> Thanks for the link, Kalinka.

 Oh I see, my mistake. I was lumping all the evil on to Stalin, when I should of evenly blamed Krushev, Brezhnev, Lenin, Andropov, Chernenko and Stalin. 1.3 million people!!! Can you phantom how many that is? Besides, as I said this is something different than "purges". Remember this is 1.3 million NAMES of people. How many nameless is not known (of course). Check this link http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin for a list of references and their tolls. 
Back to the purges. That concrete document and trials were for those 346 people, I agree. but FL's own statistics show: 
1937 353074 
1938 328618 
number of people arrested for counterrevolutionary activies ==hope you have life insurance!  
Now that is a little more than 346, but they were all evil people, right? Note that these people are only accounting for the execution lists signed personally by Stalin from archives of NKVD

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## N

> Now that is a little more than 346, but they were all evil people, right? Note that these people are only accounting for the execution lists signed personally by Stalin from archives of NKVD

 So called "Stalin's lists":  http://stalin.memo.ru/images/intro.htm 
There are 383 lists signed by Stalin and other Politbuero members with 44,500 names. So the question is what did these signs mean? 
In the USSR at the times there were two type of extreme penalty (it was in the criminal code):
1. Expulsion from the country
2. Execution 
So NKVD requested to clarify what category should they use *if* accused persons would be accounted to be guilty in the court and sentenced  to death. The signs means just that - clarifying the type. Note - there were people in the lists that were acquitted. 
As for origin and initiators of the scale repression in 1937-1938 there are now scholar researches (one source I presented already). Hint  - Stalin was not autocratic tzar in spite of childish propaganda. Another hint - study relationship between Polibuero members and between branches of power.  Study ideology struggles of the time. USSR was a huge and complicated country, thinking that all was in hands of one man is over-over -oversimplification.

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## Scorpio

> Oh I see, my mistake. I was lumping all the evil on to Stalin, when I should of evenly blamed Krushev, Brezhnev, Lenin, Andropov, Chernenko and Stalin.

 You're almost right. For example, how about the Lenin's time terror, just after revolution? Thousands and thousands of victims (although, again: this is not only Lenin and leninists to blame -- there was a civil war waging over the country, remember? But this is entirely different discussion...) And don't forget Khruschev, who is responsible for suppression of revolt in Novocherkassk (1962 ??), for example. 
I'll exclude from this list only post-Khruschev leaders, because them all look almost like angels, if compared with their predecessors.   

> 1.3 million people!!! Can you phantom how many that is?

 I can. For example, only the death toll of civil war in Spain (1936-1938, AFAICR), is somewhere near 1 mln... And how much WW II costed to World? Well, before blaming Stalin alone, it's worth to look at the world beyond USSR in the end of 1930's. As for me, it's not a pretty sight too.   

> Besides, as I said this is something different than "purges". Remember this is 1.3 million NAMES of people. How many nameless is not known (of course). Check this link http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin for a list of references and their tolls.

 Thanks, I looked as this link, and there's a lot of interesting numbers confirming what I said above. Look at the death toll WW I, for example... 
But, coming back to questions of "Stalin's purges", I can't see refrences to *any* of new researches (neither Zemskov's, nor even new data from anti-Stalin's "Memorial"!!!). Just old boring speculations, and weird numbers taken from thin air by Conquest, Solzhenitsyn and Roy Medvedev. 
(Hmm, more serious researches seem to be more accurate. Alexander Dugin: "642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53", and even ultra-liberal "Moskovskie Novosti" in ultra-liberal 1990 found only "786,098 state prisoners shot".  :: 
As I see, some numbers varies (because criteries vary too...). But any *serious* historican (and even anti-stalinists and anti-communists!) just can't find more than 1 mln. victims shot and 2-3 mln. imprisoned. Alas, "facts are stubborn" ("Факты -- упрямая вещь").   

> Back to the purges. That concrete document and trials were for those 346 people, I agree. but FL's own statistics show: 
> 1937 353074 
> 1938 328618 
> number of people arrested for counterrevolutionary activies ==hope you have life insurance!

 Well, let's go back to the topic... Yes, there were 681692 people arrested in 1937-38. (Of course, not all of arrested were killed, and some of them were released even in 1939-40...). However, there's a more important point: *why they are called "victims of Stalin's repressions"*?
I'm sure you know: the head of NKVD was Nikolay Yezhov, not Stalin... and blaming Stalin for everything Yezhov did looks a bit unfair, isn't it? 
And, as for me, it looks like he was conducting a his own, quite independent from Politburo, political course (so independent, in fact, that some historicans suppose he planned to arrest Party leaders, including Stalin, and take the all power in the country in his own hands). So, maybe the "Stalin's purges" actually were the "Yezhov's purges"? IMHO, much closer to truth...

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## kalinka_vinnie

> Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie  1.3 million people!!! Can you phantom how many that is?   I can. For example, only the death toll of civil war in Spain (1936-1938, AFAICR), is somewhere near 1 mln... And how much WW II costed to World? Well, before blaming Stalin alone, it's worth to look at the world beyond USSR in the end of 1930's. As for me, it's not a pretty sight too.

 Well, I can't.  When numbers are that high, it gets difficult. Would you be more shocked if I said that it was 1.4 million people? No, but those 100 000 people would. That was my point. But, the examples you mention are all wars. War is very different than purges, I think you will agree.   

> (Hmm, more serious researches seem to be more accurate. Alexander Dugin: "642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53", and even ultra-liberal "Moskovskie Novosti" in ultra-liberal 1990 found only "786,098 state prisoners shot". 
> As I see, some numbers varies (because criteries vary too...). But any *serious* historican (and even anti-stalinists and anti-communists!) just can't find more than 1 mln. victims shot and 2-3 mln. imprisoned. Alas, "facts are stubborn" ("Факты -- упрямая вещь").

 Dude, again you are arguing about numbers. I think 1 million people shot is 1 million too many.   

> Well, let's go back to the topic... Yes, there were 681692 people arrested in 1937-38. (Of course, not all of arrested were killed, and some of them were released even in 1939-40...). However, there's a more important point: *why they are called "victims of Stalin's repressions"*?
> I'm sure you know: the head of NKVD was Nikolay Yezhov, not Stalin... and blaming Stalin for everything Yezhov did looks a bit unfair, isn't it? 
> And, as for me, it looks like he was conducting a his own, quite independent from Politburo, political course (so independent, in fact, that some historicans suppose he planned to arrest Party leaders, including Stalin, and take the all power in the country in his own hands). So, maybe the "Stalin's purges" actually were the "Yezhov's purges"? IMHO, much closer to truth...

 Weird, I thought those numbers came from the NKVD archives and were SIGNED by Stalin himself. If you are the CEO of your company, and one of your employees is killing hundreds of thousands of people over two years, and you do nothing, don't you think you have responsibility? Stalin is responsible for every one of those lives, as any leader of a country would be if the civil servants they appointed the leaders themselves would do something similar. The truth is probably that not only did Stalin know about it, but blessed it with all his heart and mustache   ::   
BTW, I posed a similar question on a Russian forum to see the response, and I think you will find it quite interesting: http://forum.privet.com/viewtopic.php?t=87411 already 12 pages!!!   ::

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## N

> Weird, I thought those numbers came from the NKVD archives and were SIGNED by Stalin himself.

 You probably missed what I've said about signing. Perhaps you have your own explanation what signs mean. 
Again ALL members of Politbuero signed 383 lists with 44,500 names. That's the fact we have.  http://stalin.memo.ru/images/intro.htm  
For the rest (~ 650,000 ) we have no info if lists with them were sigined (and if those lists existed).  
edit: From the link -  members of Politbuero signed lists only for Выездной Коллегии Верховного Суда. The rest people were sentenced to death by other судебными органами.   

> If you are the CEO of your company, and one of your employees is killing hundreds of thousands of people over two years,

 There was no CEO and employees. The whole analogy doesn't work.  

> and you do nothing,

 You are out of the picture. If he did nothing then you probably know how and why were the mass repressions stopped?  

> don't you think you have responsibility?

 Of course he had his portion of responsibility.  

> Stalin is responsible for every one of those lives,

 I agree, because he had a position of responsibility.   

> as any leader of a country would be if the civil servants they appointed the leaders themselves would do something similar.

 In USSR "leader of a country" was Politbuero. I mean in fact this organ made all important political decisions. By the times we are talking about Stalin earned a great reputation and he was the leader but it doesn't neccesary mean that he had all power because of that.  

> The truth is probably that not only did Stalin know about it, but blessed it with all his heart and mustache

 The truth is what we need. We don't need in a primitive theory (don't take this personally, I mean "common knowledge") about our past. And today the truth is that we don't know  the full truth because some important archives covering the events in 1937-38 are classified again. Considering that now in the official Russian version of history Stalin  is evil solely responsible for everything it is 'a bit' suspicious what they are trying to hide from the public.

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## Scorpio

I mostly agree with what N said. Just want to add my 5 kopecks to discussion...   

> But, the examples you mention are all wars. War is very different than purges, I think you will agree.

 When it comes to civil war, there's not much difference. My point is: what is traditionally called "purges", was actually *civil war* in the very top of the Soviet political system -- only, opposite to more "traditional" ones, this war was kind of "internal" and hidden from the world.
There was a set of different political clans: trotskists, stalinists, several intermediate (more or less) political fractions -- which at end of 1930's began their struggle for power. Plus, there was an army (Tukhachevsky, Yakir, Uborevich, etc.) with their own agenda. And NKVD (Yezhov, Berman, Frinovskiy, some other guys) with their own, too.   

> Dude, again you are arguing about numbers. I think 1 million people shot is 1 million too many.

 Agreed absolutely. But, yet again, here are my points: 
1. Yes, in the quiet stable peaceful country (surrounded but quiet, stable and safe world) -- this is way too much. But, in the situation we are discussing, the country was neither quiet nor stable (and the world around was much worse than the country itself). Its important to keep in mind. 
2. And, again, who is responsible for these million? The document you have quoted means Stalin is responsible for 346 people. I think, there were somewhat 1000 or the like victims, for whom Stalin was responsible -- compared for lots more victims of NKVD.   

> Weird, I thought those numbers came from the NKVD archives and were SIGNED by Stalin himself. If you are the CEO of your company, and one of your employees is killing hundreds of thousands of people over two years, and you do nothing, don't you think you have responsibility?

 As N noted above, this analogy is not quite correct. But I'll try to make it closer to reality... So, Stalin (at 1937, not the corporate CEO -- more like one of the Board of directors  ::  ) sees, what Yezhov (not "one of the employees, but the chief of corporate Security service") is killing innocent people. What must he do?
Well, he must gain enough power of his own to: 1) not to get killed himself by "corporate security"; 2) dispose of Yezhov when the time is right and he is powerful enough. This is exactly what Stalin did.   

> BTW, I posed a similar question on a Russian forum to see the response, and I think you will find it quite interesting: http://forum.privet.com/viewtopic.php?t=87411 already 12 pages!!!

 Interesting discussion, thanks. As you see, oipinion differs...

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## kalinka_vinnie

Ok guys, you win. I see your point of view now, although I am not fully convinced. But I won't be fully convinced until I convince myself  :: . 
Maybe Stalin wasn't as bad as so many people claim, but he still wasn't your Mother Theresa. Got it  ::

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## N

Nobody won. I think it was a dialogue and exchange of opinions and knowledge not a contest.   ::

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## Scorpio

Agree with N. But I still hope, I'll make a site somedays, with more information about Stalin's myths (and not only them). Cursed be my laziness.  ::

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## FL



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## FL

> but FL's own statistics show: 
> 1937 353074 
> 1938 328618

 
Of course, these numbers are not my own. They were taken from table 9 (see http://masterrussian.net/mforum/viewtop ... 06&start=0
). 
What “Memorial” exactly means by the “victims of the political terror in the USSR” (“ЖЕРТВЫ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКОГО ТЕРРОРА В СССР”) is not clear (the executed and died in the camps? or simply all arrested? Only the rehabilitated or also the non-rehabilitated? Most likely, they count all - the rehabilitated and non-rehabilitated. 
At least it is clear that they count not only Soviet citizens but also all foreigners who were convicted by the Soviet courts (for example, in Germany): 
«
В 1947 году Сталин отменил смертную казнь. Она была вновь введена в 1950 году. На территории Германии в это время в зоне советского влияния действовали как немецкие, так и советские суды. Советские занимались политическими преступлениями, немецкие - уголовными. С 1947 по 1950 год никого к расстрелу не приговаривали. А с 1950 по 1953 год было расстреляно 1000 человек. Причем, приговоренные советским трибуналом, они сначала были этапированы в Москву и только потом расстреляны, кремированы и захоронены на Донском кладбище. Имена впоследствии реабилитированных немцев были опубликованы в книге «Расстрельные списки. Донское кладбище», изданной обществом «Мемориал» и издательством «Звенья».
«  www.izvestia.ru (№191, 21 октября 2005)

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## kalinka_vinnie

> What “Memorial” exactly means by the “victims of the political terror in the USSR” (“ЖЕРТВЫ ПОЛИТИЧЕСКОГО ТЕРРОРА В СССР”) is not clear (the executed and died in the camps? or simply all arrested? Only the rehabilitated or also the non-rehabilitated? Most likely, they count all - the rehabilitated and non-rehabilitated. 
> At least it is clear that they count not only Soviet citizens but also all foreigners who were convicted by the Soviet courts (for example, in Germany): 
> «
> В 1947 году Сталин отменил смертную казнь. Она была вновь введена в 1950 году. На территории Германии в это время в зоне советского влияния действовали как немецкие, так и советские суды. Советские занимались политическими преступлениями, немецкие - уголовными. С 1947 по 1950 год никого к расстрелу не приговаривали. А с 1950 по 1953 год было расстреляно 1000 человек. Причем, приговоренные советским трибуналом, они сначала были этапированы в Москву и только потом расстреляны, кремированы и захоронены на Донском кладбище. Имена впоследствии реабилитированных немцев были опубликованы в книге «Расстрельные списки. Донское кладбище», изданной обществом «Мемориал» и издательством «Звенья».
> «  www.izvestia.ru (№191, 21 октября 2005)

 I have already given up, but I just wanted to comment:  The website lists all victims, ie the names of those who died (whether they got rehabilitated or not later is besides the point).  
Are you saying that killing germans is fine as long as they aren't soviet citizens? I know you are not, you are just saying that Stalin didn't repress his *own* people, just the foreigners who were under Soviet rule... hmm..  ::

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## JB

Didn't Stalin also invite back all the Russian expats after WW2, saying they were forgiven for leaving and were welcome to rebuild Russia, then murdered them all?  I read this somewhere about a group of Russians from France.  ::

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## FL

> I have already given up, but I just wanted to comment:  The website lists all victims, ie the names of those who died (whether they got rehabilitated or not later is besides the point).  
> Are you saying that killing germans is fine as long as they aren't soviet citizens? I know you are not, you are just saying that Stalin didn't repress his *own* people, just the foreigners who were under Soviet rule... hmm..

 I did not say that killing germans is fine. I want to say that they (Memorial) count all of Soviet courts (in countries  of the Soviet block  too).
Though,  in Germany in first years after WWII (in time of denazification) and when it became first line of the Cold War there were only simple criminal offences ... It hard to believe... 
But generally (for all soviet citizens and non-soviet) to make equal the non-rehabilitated and rehabilitated... that seems strange... some of the non-rehabilitated "victims" had too much blood on their hands (in WWII and a few years after they killed many people).

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