Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Думаете вы, что мужчина с ответсвенностью, например глава рода, чаще - честный гражданин?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Думаете вы, что мужчина с ответсвенностью, например глава рода, чаще - честный гражданин?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Я думаю, что нормальные люди становятся умнее и мудрее с годами, и начинают больше ценить жизнь -- свою и чужую. Товарищи скинхеды, конечно, вряд ли когда поумнеют.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Скинхед ли - мэр Москвы, Юрий Лужков? :spiteful:
http://www.legalvizit.ru/02122007.htm
Это совершенно нормально, стремиться сделать так, чтобы дворниками в наших дворах и рабочими на стройках были бы жители Москвы или подмосковья вместо граждан солнечного Таджикистана. Зарплата дворника по документам составляет около 25 000 рублей в месяц. Я уверена в Москве найдутся студенты, которые взялись бы выполнить эту работу за такие деньги. Что касается строек, конечно, эксплуатировать нелегальных мигрантов легче. Но и Путин В.В., и Медведев Д.А., и Лужков Ю.М. - настаивают на "...цивилизованных отношениях в сфере трудовой миграции..." А всякий порядок начинается только с четкого учета ресурсов.
It is a normal tendention to give an opportunity for inhabitants of Moscow and of its neighborhood to be workers in Moscow instead of illegal migrants (for example Tajikistan migrants). An official wage of a yardman is about 25 000 rubles a month. I'm sure that there is some students in Moscow that agree to do job like that for this sum of money.
Regarding building. It is obvious that to force any illegal migrants to work more is easier. But Putin, Medvedev, Luzhkov insist on "...a legal character of labour migration", and every civilization/well ordered life starts from precise accounting of resources. I don't know what author of http://www.legalvizit.ru/02122007.htm meant while he/she was writing it, but the result is too emotional. It cannot be considered like a serious text.
Больше людей нуждается в России.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Нашёл одну.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Ха-ха-ха!... А я, может, хочу в Великобритании жить! :D Так меня туда не то, что жить, меня даже в качестве туристки туда не пустят.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
LET'S TAKL ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEMS IN THE UK!!! :bravo:
(Or maybe Russians who don't have as much money as Berezovsky are not humans for you Brits?)
Вот аргумерты за и против миграции: http://www.izvestia.ru/russia/article3135943/
What did you mean? You phrase says that "More people (?than it had been before? This part may be added for context of the articles you had given in the links) need Russia." Are you sure in it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Do you mean Russia that has the name which is female gender? It is very original! Don't forget that the USA, Britain, France, German, Belgium, Spain and.. the whole Europe can be described like that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
And one modest addition. The illegual migration problem exists in the USA. BTW, the fact was mentoined in the article that you wrote down here http://www.izvestia.ru/russia/article3135943/.
The classification from trhe quote shows that the problem is very deep.Quote:
А, например, в США дифференцируют подход - пуэрториканская преступность, колумбийская и так далее.
What is the interest of yours to look for a woman who has a problem with immigrants? If it was not be like that you wouldn't write down:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Are you sure in your translation? His phrase is clumsy, but it is completely clear. Where do you find in it "than it", "had been" and "before"?Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Захотел сказать: Россия нуждается больше людей.
Khmm... No, he's not. It's one thing to try and resolve "the immigrant problem" legally and another to beat up people because of their race/ethnicity/nationality. I don't want Russia to become an outpost of Tadjikistan or China any more than anyone else... I love our culture too much. But I don't think it's likely too happen anyway. And the solution to it is in curbing illegal immigration and, most importantly, improving the standards of living. Besides, this 'problem' exists everywhere, as ekaterinak pointed out -- the US is swamped by Mexicans, France, Germany -- by Arabs, Great Britain -- by Indians?Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Here, in Siberia, it's more popular to talk about the Chinese. Though, for the life of me, I don't see a lot of Chinese in the streets -- a couple of students from Kazakhstan, and that's all...
Анекдот:
Решили однажды выяснить, как население Сибири и Дальнего Востока относится к китайцам. 15% населения на вопрос "Как вы относитесь к китайцам?" ответили "Хорошо". А 85% – "Халясё".
Another variation is, the population was asked "Как вам здесь живется?"
Is anyone stopping them? As I understand it, illegal immigrants usually perform work that natives are too fastidious to do. In addition, giving work to foreigners from poorer countries is more profitable for the employer -- they don't ask high wages and social guarantees. That's why some companies, like Nike and Reebok, relocated part of their business to Asian countries (China, Pakistan, etc). Check out sweatshop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshops.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
I suppose that it is true for many countries, not for Russia only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Для любой страны нет ничего хорошего в том, что производство перемещается в другую страну. Никто не спорит, это очень выгодно для работодателей, но для местного населения это означает одно: сокращение рабочих мест, безработицу, низкий уровень жизни, отсутствие развития технологий и прикладной науки. Возможно, что все эти последствия не произойдут одномоментно, но рано или поздно это приведет к такому результату. Вот почему, интересно, Китай выходит в лидеры? Да потому что там сосредоточено производство! Это миф, считать, что если завод/произоводство расположить в одной стране, то квалифицированных инженеров для него можно будет "воспитать" в другой. "Запала" хватит лет на 10-15, а потом - в производстве будут разбираться, а значит и развивать его, те люди, которые имеют на этот завод "доступ", а не те, которые сидят за тысячи километров в офисах и думают, что руководят.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Незаконная трудовая миграция не повышает уровень жизни, а наоборот, снижает его. Причём это "бьёт" по обеим группам: по группе местного населения и по группе тех же мигрантов. Для первых - работадатели снижают уровень заработной платы, из за чего платёжеспособность населения падает, уровень жизни тоже. Для вторых - работадатели получают возможность использовать практически рабский труд. Через поколение мигранты становятся местным населением, угадайте, в какой уровень жизни они попадут? :-)
Если это всё не регулировать, то начнётся "социалистический капитализм", когда работаешь как папа Карло, а зарабатываешь так, как будто работаешь на общественных началах.
Это - русский форум. I will discuss conditions in Madagascar somewhere else.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Permit me to remind you of the real issue here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
This is a forum about learning Russian language, for your information. If someone wants so much to talk about politics, there is a special section for that here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Actually, ekaterina didn't say that you cannot discuss Russia conditions here. What she says was just a reasonable remark which very well fitted the discussion you offered. Your reply to her is impolite.Quote:
I will discuss conditions in Madagascar somewhere else.
I don't think you, Оля, are in any position to criticise me for being impolite. I remember you shouting at me in another topic. There was also a time you were following me around and taking every opportunuty to contradict me, with or without reason. I was provoked by some of ekaterinak's earlier comments but you seem not to have noticed them. Please try to be impartial. In any case the lady in question is an adult and should be able to speak for herself without the intrusion of third parties.
Your distinction between a Russian forum and a forum for learning Russian where Russian issues are discussed seems like splitting hairs to me. And who is discussing politics? In general discussion there are topics about literature and film that could be placed somewhere else but I have not heard you complaining.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Dear sir, you seem to have a paranoia. I have no idea what you are talking about. Probably there was a discussion where I contradicted your opinion (I really don't remember it), but if you think I did it intentionally, you overrate importance of your person in my eyes. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Oh, you probably mean this post:Quote:
I don't think you, Оля, are in any position to criticise me for being impolite. I remember you shouting at me in another topic.
viewtopic.php?p=219913#p219913
Poor guy, you must be a very sensitive person if you took that line as shouting. However, anyone would have lost his patience if an obstinate guy from another part of the world would stubbornly try to prove that he and google know more about climate in the two cities where you spent all your life, and he has never been even in one of them. You've been "shouted" after a long bunch of polite and intelligible answers from people who really knew the subject.
Anyway, regardless of me being or not being rude to you, it has nothing to do with the fact of impoliteness of your reply to Ekaterina.
all of a sudden this belongs in culture and history??
[quote=Martin Miles]
Permit me to remind you of the real issue here:[/quote:1uophs0i]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Martin Miles":1uophs0i
Martin, do you see the difference between two kinds of problems: the first is illegal migrants (level of a state) and the second is some problems of some woman with "their rights over their bodies"(level of interpersonal communication)? I've got the impression that they are the same for you. It is strange.
And why do you not like emancipated women? Your posts show that you are offended by them. I'm sorry about this, but you don't have to fill youself any abhorrence. It is the road to nothing.
Good luck.
Oi vei...
Ну в Китае-то проблемы с низкой зарплатой не из-за иммиграции, а ровно из другой области -- перенаселенности. И их экономика наоборот на подъеме. Потом, я так понимаю, что "социалистический капитализм" это то же, что "капитализм с человеческим лицом" или "социальная демократия"? Джоанна описывала недавно в политике, как у них там все устроено в Швеции, когда нет ни чересчур богатых, ни слишком бедных, а политики зарабатывают столько же, сколько обычные люди -- так я бы хотела как в Швеции! Только у нас такое вряд ли когда будет, наверно.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Well, this totally doesn't belong here but I took a peek at that topic... As I understand it from my friends who have been in St. Petersburg in winter and my relatives who live there, subjectively, it seems colder than it actually is because of the wind. When there's a strong wind, even -15 degrees Celsius would seem like -30. So even if the average winter temperatures in St. Petersburg are lower than in Moscow, they would seem harder to bear because of the wind and general humidity. Believe me, we Siberians know something about cold. We've had -25 for about a week already...Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Well, you can't change it. There are a lot of advantages for women because of the emancipation and there's no changing the history... I personally think if there's a problem that should be discussed, it's overpopulation. We have now what, 6 billion people on this earth? Whereas it was only 1 bln at the beginning of the 20th century. Overcrowding creates many problems, like lack of food and other resources, which in turn leads to an increase in aggression and wars. Emancipation, or rather, advances in contraception, only help to solve those problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Если вы сомневаетесь в пользе регулирования вопросов связанных с трудовой миграцией, попробуйте получить разрешение на работу в любой из стран Евросоюза или в Великобритании, или в США. Совершенно точно, что это будет сделать нелегко. А теперь задайте себе вопрос: "Почему эти страны поддерживают у себя такое законодательство?". Я верю, что Вы сможете на него ответить, и тогда Вам станет понятно зачем нужно регулировать эти вопросы не то что на уровне города (Москвы, например), но и на уровне государства. Причем это регулирование просто обязано быть достаточно жестким.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Перенаселенность Китая отнюдь не единственная причина низкого уровня заработной платы/уровня жизни в этой стране. Проанализируйте историю СССР, США (причины Депрессии) и тогда Вам станет понятно что к чему.
Заметье, что ни один иностранец не высказывает таких сомнений в отношении своей страны.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Я и не сомневаюсь в том, что миграция должна регулироваться законом (а не скинхедами :wacko: ). Собственно, вроде законы-то у нас есть, может и недостаточно жесткие. Я всегда слышу, что в Россию, наоборот, сложно попасть -- много бюрократии и волокиты. Типа, не любят у нас иностранцев. Не знаю, может, неправда. :unknown: Основная проблема в нелегалах.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
P.S. Можно на "ты". :) По-моему, тут как-то больше на "ты" народ общается, нет? :flazhok:
Вообще-то я про законы и про систему нормативных актов которые бы навели порядок в этой области раз и навсегда. Скинхеды - это совсем другая "песня" (если конечно можно это "явление" назвать таким поэтичным словом :-)) я о ней даже не упоминала, и честно говоря - нет желания упоминать.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Законы у нас очень даже неплохие, но не всегда подготовлена база для их исполнения и отслеживания их исполнения. Но я оптимистично смотрю на это, наша страна движется вперёд и есть много изменений в лучшую сторону.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Иностранцев у нас очень даже любят. Везде по-другому смотрят на эммигрантов и иностранцев. Россия в этом плане на высоте.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
Причем в огромном и никак неконтролируемом их количестве. У нас полно людей, которые могли бы выполнять такую работу. Кстати, чем плоха работа сантехника (правда хороший сантехник - это действительно ценный работник!), дворника, рабочего??? Почти всегда рядом с домом, это как минимум одно преимущество - бежать по утрам никуда не надо! Если человек, например учится, или он приближается к отметке того возраста, когда работадатель предпочтет ему более молодого работника, ну чем плохо поработать в собственном дворе, благоустраивая его, за пусть небольшие, но всё же деньги? Кстати в городском хозяйстве полно таких рабочих мест!Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
P.S. Можно на "ты". :) По-моему, тут как-то больше на "ты" народ общается, нет? :flazhok: [/quote]
Здесь нет жесткого правила на этот счет. Кому как удобней. Учту твоё пожелание в будущем. :roll:
Ekaterinak, I don't abhor emancipated women. If I did, I would not have started a topic asking why Russian women seemed not to have the same status as their western sisters. And starrysky, I am not trying to change history. Female emancipation has benefits for both men and women. What I was saying, was that in addition to the benefits it also has at least one less favourable consequence, namely, for whatever reason, emancipated women tend not to have enough children to maintain the size of the national population which then creates a need for imported labour. Earlier in the thread, Ekaterinak, I talked about the situation in some other European countries, so i was never trying to single out one country for special blame. If we discuss this question in a serious, mature and unemotional way, no one's feelings will get hurt.
The question of overpopulation is important. Some economists believe that if you have more mouths to feed, you also have more hands to produce food and so on with. I would also note that, as far as the environment is concerned, the 1.2 children of the average Italian family have a larger carbon footprint than the lets say 4 of a Bangladeshi family. They are fewer, but they use up more of the world's resources.
Olya, I am not the one who is self-important. You clearly tried to shut down this discussion when you wroteWhen I ignored you the first time, you tried again...and failed. If you want to tell people what they should and should not talk about, and where, and how, then you should try to become a moderator. Until that time, I will be guided by people who actually have authority. As for your attempts to contradict me at every turn, if it was just the Petersburg question, I might forgive you, but you know very well what you have done and the evidence is available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
By the way, Martin, can you clarify what particular 'status' do you have in mind? What do you mean by this word anyway? The answer of your original question depends on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Hmm... the less people a country has the less services it needs, therefore having less demand for the jobs, and hence less imported labour. :mosking:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
I would agree with others who see a need for imported labour in people seeking more comfort for themselves (=better pay, working conditions, etc.) Whether that imported labour is legal or illegal that's another story... :hlop:
Если судить по названию ("Статус женщины" я поняла как "положение женщины"), то дискуссия на такую тему вполне могла бы быть об истории женского вопроса в России и культуре отношений между полами. А так как тема приобрела какой-то размашистый характер, то я уже не знаю, где ей лучше быть.Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
[quote=Martin Miles]You clearly tried to shut down this discussion when you wrote[/quote:7gzio9lr]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Оля":7gzio9lr
Dear Martin, you are so funny, really. It was 'clearly' for you, but not for others. I had no intention to shut down this discussion (and why sould I?). That sentence, and in that form, was just a joke which was, by the way, provoked by your incorrect Russian sentence (больше людей нуждаются в России) that meant, more or less, "More people want to live in Russia". So my sentence was a playful reply to your remark (as I understand it). And if you don't know, I can tell you that it's very hard for many Russians to visit the UK even as tourists (and at once you say 'more people want to LIVE in Russia', not just visit it), and that was the point of my reply. If you want people to understand you better, use the language you know better or add the English version to your post.
Actually, big letters meant 'addressing to all'. "Hey, all, I want you all to hear me, let's do such-and-such thing!.." And my 'shouting' was followed by a smiley, and it's strange that you didn't pay any attention to that.
Also, remember that Russians are more emotional and less bound by etiquette people than the English. If we shout or use big letters, it does not mean rudeness yet at all. If we don't intersperse our posts with remarks like "your post was brilliantly interesting, but...", "sorry for expressing my opinion which can be a bit harsh, but..." and so on, it does not mean that we have intention to contradict, offend or to be rude, either. If you want to learn Russian and are interested by Russia conditions and Russian society, you need to be less touchy and also more patient and open-minded then. You need to learn to understand if someone really meant to offend you or maybe has no idea that you feel offended about his remark/acts/behaviour. Otherwise you will always misunderstand people around you and be misunderstood yourself (as it often happens on this forum, let me tell you a secret, and not only because of your Russian).
If you call that 'contradicting', you are very strange, indeed... :-oQuote:
As for your attempts to contradict me at every turn, if it was just the Petersburg question
I was actually trying to answer your question. It was rather you who contradicted me in that thread (and not only me, and see now what starrysky has written above about the Petersburg weather) and then, in addition to all, called me a liar. :-o By the way, you didn't answer my question in that thread, about the singer's name. I see now that this question of mine was a crime, too. :o
Actually, I think it wouldn't be any problems, if I tried. :mosking:Quote:
then you should try to become a moderator.
Listen, stop this arrogant tone which is ridiculous. I haven't "done" anything for which I should justify myself before you. You seem to be a person with too many hang-ups who likes to seek out enemies and ill-wishers even in places where there are only friends. You wanted to see me as your enemy here, while I didn't even know that, so now you almost turned me into one. Who is next?Quote:
you know very well what you have done and the evidence is available.
Слава Богу, есть еще оптимисты в этой стране! :) А то что-то поднадоел весь этот негатив про то, как у нас все плохо.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Я считаю, что всякий труд нужен и благороден и должен хорошо оплачиваться, но тенденция почему-то такая, что менеджер в офисе (который полдня висит в интернете, пьет кофа и перекуривает) зарабатывает в разы больше, чем продавец в магазине или уборщица или дворник. Т.е. в плане часов и усилий, человек работает так же, или даже меньше, а получает больше. В результате кто ж захочет работать дворником? Не знаю, как в Москве, а у нас тут дворники 25 тыщ не получают.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekaterinak
Кстати, хорошая идея. Кое о чём тут уже упоминалось, но вообще эту тему можно развить. *думает чего бы такого умного сказать* Будет время, погуглю.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Maintaining the size of the national population is the last thing a woman would consider when planning her family. :D I would like to have, let's say, three children, provided the circumstances are right and health permits. But if it is to be the life of an average Bangladeshi family, no thank you. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Concerning the initial question, whether women in Russia are emancipated enough and enjoy the same rights and liberties that Western women do, yes, women here became quite emancipated during the Soviet times already, so nowadays I'd say there's almost no difference (I suppose this was already said at the beginning of this discussion). But feminism in Russia isn't quite so strong and there remain some vestiges of the older kind of men--women relationships. I do think it would be quite interesting to delve into the history and traditions as Lampada suggested.
If all age groups of the population declined at the same rate that might be true. When the birth rate declines, what happens is that the workforce contracts in relation to the sum of retired people. The pensions of retirees are, in effect, paid by the workforce, so if there are not enough people working, then pensions can't be paid. Furthermore, a population in which old people predominate is heading for eventual extinction. That's not my opinion, it's the view of leading Russian demographers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Btw, I have a personality of my own, so I am accustomed to being misunderstood. The Russian people, I am told, say that they too are often misunderstood. They should be glad, therefore, when anyone attempts to learn their language. But I would really prefer to talk about the status of women in Russia.
Ramil, my question was prompted by an article in 'Izvestia' (the link is on page one) which said that Russian women are not as well represented in politics and big business as women in the West. So by 'status' I meant their degree of participation in the leadership of the country.
I don't see any problem then. Medvedev may complain about small number of women in politics, but in reality a rare woman would want to choose a political career. It's not discrimination of any sort but a simple fact that women in general do not want to go into politics. And I don't think anything should be done to change this situation, but this is my personal opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
So be it. Russia is different, as they say. And if Russians are often misunderstood, whatever others might think, I would not say that they are "strange", "funny" or "paranoid" :hlop: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
How easily you decide for all women. :wink: Not so long ago it was thought that a woman is 'man's best friend' and nothing should be done about it. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I suspect that the ambiguity of this phrase is missed in translation.Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
I'd say that a woman is man's second worst enemy. After himself. *)
Have you perchance noticed me mentioning the words 'in general' and 'personal opinion'?Quote:
Originally Posted by starrysky
I've polled all women I work with about whether they want to make a political career, I've polled my wife and all her female friends. The universal answer was 'NO'.
And a woman is a man's best friend, after all. :wink:
Пожалуйста, объясните. :upset:Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
I get it now. In English, "Man's best friend" (the dog) and "the best friend of a man" are different in form and meaning, but a Russian would say something like "лучший друг человека" to translate both phrases. Хм...
Well, actually, in Russian "the best friend of a man" would be "лучший друг одного человека" (if you mean a certain man). Technically, you can translate it just as "лучший друг человека", but the context always dictates the exact phrase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
человек (a human) vs. мужчина (a male) - both these words can be translated as 'man' in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Miles
Actually, "the best friend of a man" in English would not refer to a certain man, the article is indefinite. A man can mean one as opposed to two or three or men in general. The real distinction is between a man (any male person) and Man (a human being, humanity in general). My understanding is that человек can cover both meanings, but I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong :rose: .Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля