Religion in Russia and the ex-Soviet countries

I am really a bit confused about how religious Russians and other ex Soviet people are. What do you think yourselves?

• Growing up, I was actually told that Russian Orthodox Christianity was almost dead, and that was definitely what the signs were showing in the 1980s. But this was very wrong!
• There was a big exodus of Jewish people Russia, Ukraine etc, to Israel. For religious reasons, one assumes.
• In the 90s there were man stories of spooky spiritualism, witchcraft and shamanism in Russia. Russians seemed to believe in just about anything supernatural without much discernment - at least if the tabloids were to be believed.
• Then, with Edinaya Rossia, Russia is now building more NEW churches than anywhere else on the planet.
• And I heard from several people that atheism during the Soviet years was mostly a myth - people continued to be religious during the Soviet years, just kept it very private, in the family.
• I was travelling in some ex Soviet countries and I must say that Moldova was easily the MOST religious country I have ever visited. There were icons everywhere, people were crossing themselves more than I've ever seen anywhere else and as you walked past a church, lively services were in progress with everyone taking religion very seriously.
• Meanwhile Estonia, another ex Soviet country, is the most atheistic country on earth..... Where is the logic in this, compared with Moldova?
• In Moscow, authorities just demolished a Pentecostal church for no apparent reason, looking very much like persecution of this group. Is there real persecution of evangelical Christians in Russia? If so, why?
• While Pussy Riot makes headlines for protesting the too close ties between the state and the orthodox church.

The situation is a bit confusing. How does everyone feel about religion in Russia and the ex Soviet countries?

Vladimir Putin speaks about his faith and religious background, with subtitles.

http://youtu.be/u3d_yxJhmjk

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In the 90s there were man stories of spooky spiritualism, witchcraft and shamanism in Russia. Russians seemed to believe in just about anything supernatural without much discernment - at least if the tabloids were to be believed.

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I think that's not just Russian trouble. Everywhere and at all times people were ready to believe in miracles. Not all people of course, but those who need them, for whom that was a last chance to live, terminally ill for example. And near them always were swindlers who used their despair. Some people are so dissatisfied with their lives, that also ready to go for those who promise them happiness or wealth.

The religious life in Russia never died, few people managed to bring their faith through all these terrible years. And there were lots of real martyrs during these years. One need great courage to be faithful - you will big problems at your work, for example, if someone sees you going inside the church or baptizing your child. Now the situation changed, most people baptize their children - but many of them do it just because "everyone does it" or "чтоб не болел". So it is kind of people who call themselves orthodox but visit the church twice a year (if so) - to bring "кулич" before the Easter and to take water on Epiphany. And to light a candle. I suppose that the most religious generation in Russia is people of 30-50, those who was young, open and looking for the sense of their living in the epoch of crushing the System. Those who older are too hard to believe, those who younger are the generation of pepsi.

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Then, with Edinaya Rossia, Russia is now building more NEW churches than anywhere else on the planet.

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We need them very much. When we moved to Izmaylovo, there was no a single church nearby. Since that one not very big church was built, but that’s not enough even taking into account that people are not very religious in Russia and few of them go to the church regularly.

Interesting comments on an interesting topic...

Particularly in Europe, it is a massive problem what to do with all old churches that few people visit, that are very expensive to keep running.
In Sweden it's done off taxes but more and more people are beginning to object to that. In the UK, the churches are simply locked up, or used as meeting rooms, concerts or even, in some cases for new flats - I.e. people live in them. The Church of England, simply sells the buildings to whoever wants to buy them.

Meanwhile in Russia new churches are being built. It really boggles belief.
As a Christian I think it's great though!

Interesting comments on who goes to church in Russia, and why. And on the stories about people keeping their faith during the Soviet years - somebody shared a very touching story about that here, getting baptized in a lake in the forest. That's really the real deal! Inspiring.

About new churches - I live in a rather small town - 90000 inhabitants. We have 3 churches. On Sundays they are full. On great holidays it is difficult to enter (and in Russian churches there are no sitting places!). On Epiphany we have a very long queue just to take some water - one would spend more than an hour. So we really need another church, as the town is growing up fast.
I never heard of baptizing in the forests, but I was baptized at somebody's home in a bath - not because of top secrecy, I suppose, but it was easier so. And my mother (atheist, of course!) asked me not to show the cross to anyone - so I tied it to my clothes inside. But it was on the edge of times.

I have a strong feeling that in spite of our constitution Russia is not a secular state, but rather a religious state. The subject "Fundamentals of Orthodox Culture" was introduced in school by the government. That's too much. Everyone must choose his faith himself, but what is now happening here is open Orthodox promotion for everyone and I'm really afraid about the future.

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Originally Posted by Aluette

One need great courage to be faithful - you will big problems at your work, for example, if someone sees you going inside the church or baptizing your child.

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В вашей альтернативщине, наверное, даже крестов на кладбищах нельзя было ставить?

I think that building new churches (they even call them быстровозводимые - quick construction churches; what a cheep, fastfood-ish approach!) is part of forcing religion upon people by the state.
In some cases people are actively protesting against it (for example, in several Moscow districts).
I support restoration and preservation of old (pre-1917) churches, though.
There are so many church ruins in Russia! One would better travel to these sites and grow in faith through some hardships of travel (say, five hours on Mercedes bus with air conditioning :)), than go to church every day as if to local pub.


Here is one more example of too close ties between the state and the church. Our rockets crash, but they are blessed now. What an improvement! What a shame...

http://s41.radikal.ru/i093/1207/58/090f21dcb0f5.jpg

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/syste...2/original.jpg

Интересные цифры (2010 год). По данным ВЦИОМ, 75% россиян считают себя православными, 8% - атеистами, остальные граждане причисляют себя к другим конфессиям.
Среди верующих есть и такие кто верит просто в Высшую Силу и ни к каким конфессиям себя не относит (менее процента). Из верующих всех конфессий лишь 66% соблюдают обряды.

Из тех 75% лишь 54% знакомы с содержанием Библии. Хотя из тех же 75 процентов, 73% соблюдают обряды. Однако, по данным Фонда "Общественное Мнение" лишь 4% православных россиян регулярно посещают храм и причащаются. Таким образом с точки зрения канонов православия, большинство современных православных, не настоящие православные, то есть не православные.

До 60 % людей, причисляющих себя к православным верующим, не относят себя к религиозным людям, и только около 40 % православных уверены в существовании Бога. Около 30 % из числа тех, кто называет себя православными верующими, вообще полагают, что Бога нет. По мнению аналитиков, данные социологических опросов свидетельствуют, что большинство отождествляет себя с православием на основе национального самосознания типа "Мы - русские, с нами Бог".

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Originally Posted by Hanna

There was a big exodus of Jewish people Russia, Ukraine etc, to Israel. For religious reasons, one assumes.

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Евреи уезжали по религиозным причинам? Я очень в этом сомневаюсь. Хотя бы потому, что в евреи записывались все, кому не лень. Кто хотел уехать, тот и искал у себя еврейские корни. Потому что уезжать разрешалось только им. Поэтому можно сказать, что это был не исход евреев, а позорный исход советских людей в единственном направлении, которое было открыто из СССР (Израиль) и через единственную дырку (принадлежность к еврейскому народу). Как я понимаю, эта дырка была пробита западом. Надавили на наше руководство и они разрешили.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

In the 90s there were man stories of spooky spiritualism, witchcraft and shamanism in Russia. Russians seemed to believe in just about anything supernatural without much discernment - at least if the tabloids were to be believed.

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Язычество в России было сильно всегда. Язычество - это открытая система. Оно впитывает в себя элементы всех остальных религий. Так случилось и с православием (оно было освоено язычеством). Например, гадания перед Рождеством, ряженые, сжигание чучела Масленицы и т.д. Христианство же наоборот - это закрытая система. Она отторгает всё чужеродное.

В 90-ые у нас много чего вылезло на белый свет. Не только шаманизм, но и спекулянты, сектанты, бандиты, сепаратисты, нацисты и прочие. Свобода, блин. Захлестнуло тогда через чур. Так всегда бывает при переходном процессе от несвободы к свободе. Первый всплеск самый большой по амплитуде.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Then, with Edinaya Rossia, Russia is now building more NEW churches than anywhere else on the planet.

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Власть поддерживает церковь, так как считают её силой, стабилизирующей общество. По этой же причине Pussy Riot выбрали церковь в качестве мишени (тоже видимо считают Церковь стабилизирующей силой в России).

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Originally Posted by Hanna

And I heard from several people that atheism during the Soviet years was mostly a myth - people continued to be religious during the Soviet years, just kept it very private, in the family.

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Настоящая вера всегда приватна. И тогда и сейчас. А показушное и массовое участие в религиозных мероприятиях - это не от веры. Многие ходят туда как на шоу, просто пощекотать себе нервы и получить удовольствие. А участие в таких "шоу" первых лиц государства только повышает статус этих "шоу". Я, например, знаком только с одной по-настоящему религиозной семьёй.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I was travelling in some ex Soviet countries and I must say that Moldova was easily the MOST religious country I have ever visited. There were icons everywhere, people were crossing themselves more than I've ever seen anywhere else and as you walked past a church, lively services were in progress with everyone taking religion very seriously.

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По моим понятиям Молдова - это самая отсталая, бедная, малообразованная, деревенская страна. Много молдаван работает у нас уборщицами и продавщицами на рынке. Слышал, что там очень высокая степень употребления алкоголя на душу населения. Даже младенцам могут дать сосать тряпку, пропитанную вином, чтобы не орал, а спал.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Meanwhile Estonia, another ex Soviet country, is the most atheistic country on earth..... Where is the logic in this, compared with Moldova?

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Эстонцы у нас всегда были самые западные. Видимо поэтому в их стране угасание религиозности максимальное. Ведь это в Европе началась секуляризация, то есть снижение роли церкви в общественной жизни.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

In Moscow, authorities just demolished a Pentecostal church for no apparent reason, looking very much like persecution of this group. Is there real persecution of evangelical Christians in Russia? If so, why?

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У нас запрещаются секты, опасные для людей. Жена моего дяди попала в такую секту, пропагандирующую конец света. Дело кончилось тем, что она покончила с собой, спрыгнув с 9-го этажа. Если же культ не требует кончать с собой и отдавать квартиры секте, то их не запрещают.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

How does everyone feel about religion in Russia and the ex Soviet countries?

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Большинство людей в России не верят. Но и не являются при этом атеистами. Большинство не приемлет карикатур на религиозную тему и прочих достижений западной цивилизации в этом вопросе. Но за свободу совести и сознания и за отделения церкви от государства и образования. Большинство считает религию своих предков самым приемлемым вариантом для себя, если вопрос встанет о выборе веры. Большинство готовы соблюсти религиозные традиции и обряды просто из уважения к старшим. Я например, крестился на похоронах при отпевании покойника. Хотя и не верующий. Почему не наложить на себя крест, если это может помочь близкому человеку?

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Originally Posted by Юрка

Я например, крестился на похоронах при отпевании покойника. Хотя и не верующий. Почему не наложить на себя крест, если это может помочь близкому человеку?

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Креститься без веры нельзя, это кощунственно и несомненно будет наказано не на Земле. (Если только зерно веры не прорастет)

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Originally Posted by mishau_

Креститься без веры нельзя, это кощунственно и несомненно будет наказано не на Земле. (Если только зерно веры не прорастет)

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А кто ты такой, чтобы определять, что кощунственно, а что нет? Ты православный священник? (Вытерто. Л.)

(Вытерто. Л.)

Вот линк

Митрополит КИРИЛЛ: Креститься без веры нельзя:

Митрополит Кирилл:
- Самое ужасное, когда человек ни во что не верит и не желает уверовать, но говорит себе: ладно, пойду, поучаствую в этом спектакле. - И он может быть наказан?
Митрополит Кирилл:

- Несомненно, он будет наказан.

Вот еще: о таинстве Крещения.

Принятие Крещения без веры и покаяния может послужить человеку в осуждение, поскольку «от всякого, кому дано много, много и потребуется, и кому много вверено, с того больше взыщут» (Лк. 12: 48). Креститься нужно для того, чтобы получить познание истины, прощение грехов и вечную жизнь, любые другие мотивы принятия этого Таинства («чтобы быть русским», «чтобы Бог помогал», «потому что все крещенные») недопустимы. Согласно правилам Православной Церкви Крещение должно предваряться периодом подготовки. При нашем храме действуют огласительные курсы, в ходе которых желающий креститься знакомится с основами христианской веры и жизни. К Крещению нужно готовиться также молитвой и постом, посещая храмовые богослужения и начиная еще до Крещения жить церковной жизнью.


Игумен Даниил: Крещение без веры - профанация Таинства.

Из Марцинковского В.Ф (1920 год):

Так что тем из вас, дорогие читатели, кто был крещен в детстве или хотя и в зрелом возрасте, но без искреннего покаяния «оглашения», т.е. научения, необходимо уверовать в Иисуса, принять его в свое сердце и креститься в воде с полным погружением - это будет настоящее православное крещение. Ведь то, что сегодня мы видим в большинстве Православных храмов - это НЕ ПРАВОСЛАВНОЕ КРЕЩЕНИЕ, А ЕРЕСЬ И ЗАБЛУЖДЕНИЕ.

Кафедральный собор Святых Новомучеников и Исповедников Российских и Святителя Николая в г. Мюнхене:

Ибо без веры – и без верности Слову Божию – крещение собственное или крещение чьего-либо младенца может обратиться по легкомыслию кощунственной пародией, чудовищной ложью.

Протоерей Макcим Козлов: Креститься без веры не только бессмысленно, но даже кощунственно.

Зря ты, Лампада. Переходов на личность там не было, я лишь указал на мегакрупный провал в аргументации оппонента - неверующий обвиняет верующего, что вера и познания этого верующего не соответствует заблуждениям того неверующего. Очень типично для современной России и ничего личного.

I found the discussion between mishau_ and Юрка about whether a non-believer should креститься ("make the Sign of the Cross on oneself") quite interesting.

I was raised Catholic, and in Roman Catholic teaching, only baptized Catholics are allowed to receive the bread and wine during причащение (Communion). Not all Protestant churches have such a rule -- in some cases, any baptized Christian from any sect can receive the bread and wine.

However, the Catholic argument is that Communion is very unlike the "miracle of the loaves and fishes" -- to which everyone was welcome, including tax collectors and whores -- but is a special таинство (sacrament) only for properly baptized Catholics who have been properly educated about the ritual and have recently made a proper confession.

Now, I'm a non-Christian and do not believe that the Supreme Being would be offended if I were to "receive the Body and Blood" or participate in other Catholic rituals without belief in them. But on the rare occasions when I attend Mass (generally for family reasons), I do not do these things: I don't take the bread and wine, I don't "cross myself," I don't recite the Catholic prayers that I learned as a child, etc. Sometimes I will sing hymns that are based on the Psalms or other parts of the Ветхий Завет (Old Testament), but I usually avoid adding my voice to hymns about Jesus.

But this is not because I fear punishment in the afterlife; it's partly about respecting the beliefs of my Catholic relatives, and also that I want to set a consistent example for my nephew. (He's not nearly old enough to understand that there a variety of religious beliefs and that billions of people don't believe in Jesus -- but someday he will, and I don't want him to say, "Uncle Rob, if you don't believe in Jesus, then why do you make the sign of the cross when you come to church with us ?")

P.S. And incidentally, although I'm not Jewish, I have from time to time visited synagogue services with Jewish friends -- and I made sure to ask ahead of time: "Are there things I should NOT take part in as a non-Jew? Would it be insensitive or deceptive if a non-believing Gentile puts on a kippa/yarmukle?", etc. Again, it's not that I believe God cares much, but I know that Jews may care about such things...

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Originally Posted by Юрка

У нас запрещаются секты, опасные для людей... Если же культ не требует кончать с собой и отдавать квартиры секте, то их не запрещают.

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But this is a relatively new development, isn't it? I mean, my impression is that historically -- both in pre-Revolutionary times and in the Soviet era -- there was a lot of discrimination by the State against any sect that did not have "long historical roots in Russia," which in practice excluded many Protestant churches.

And perhaps the real reason was not that these newer sects were truly опасные для людей, but that they were опасные для гегемонии Православной церкви! (After all, some Evangelical Protestant sects make it very simple and quick for an adult "convert" to join the church, whereas conversion to Catholicism or Judaism can take a couple years of mandatory study.)

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I found the discussion between mishau_ and Юрка about whether a non-believer should креститься ("make the Sign of the Cross on oneself") quite interesting.

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You misunderstood the word "креститься" (get baptized) in the context of that discussion. It is true that the word can also mean "cross oneself", but that is not what they were talking about.

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But this is a relatively new development, isn't it? I mean, my impression is that historically -- both in pre-Revolutionary times and in the Soviet era -- there was a lot of discrimination by the State against any sect that did not have "long historical roots in Russia," which in practice excluded many Protestant churches.

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Yes and no. Definitely yes about Soviet times. You can see the short documentary below about the public trial over sect "Христиане веры евангельской" to evaluate the scale of communist brainwashing in 1960s long after Stalin’s death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4sF0oLO-_4

No, about pre-Bolshevik times of the 20th century. Nicholas II was pretty enlightened and interested in unorthodox spiritual movements. For example, he participated in Martinism and its leader Dr. Papus was his spiritual adviser and a physician of the tsar family for quite a while.

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"В 1905 году император Николай II пригласил Папюса и его учителя мэтра Филиппа Низье в Царское Село, чтобы получить от них совет по поводу проблем во внутренней политике, вызванных русской революцией 1905 года[37]. Папюс бывал в Российской империи трижды: в 1901, 1905, 1906 годах. Целью приезда были лекции по магии и оккультизму, и укрепление Мартинистского Ордена в Российской империи. Также он консультировал царскую семью, как врач и оккультный советник. Именно Папюс посвятил Императора Николая II в Мартинизм. По версиям некоторых историков, Папюс предсказал гибель царя Николая II."

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Мартинизм — Википедия

Needless to say, that martinists as well as any other alien to communism unorthodox spiritual movement was cracked down after the coup d’état of 1917 and its leaders arrested, trialed, jailed, and died in concentration camps.

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20 мая 1926 года Б. В. Астромову, Г. О. Мебесу, его жене и другим оккультистам было предъявлено официальное обвинение. Г. Мёбес как и ряд других масонов, мартинистов и розенкрейцеров получили 3 года ссылки. После чего им было добавлено ещё 3 года, Мёбес был сослан в Сыктывкар (Усть-Сысольск).
В середине 1928 года в газетах «Ленинградская правда» и «Красная звезда» появились сообщения, что чекистами была раскрыта Великая ложа «Астрея» во главе с 70-летним «черным оккультистом» Мебесом. Начатое расследование, как утверждала газета, вскоре показало, что в Ленинграде действовали «вполне серьезные масонские ложи с несколькими десятками членов, с магистрами и мастерами, с посвящением, клятвами, подписанными кровью, уставом, заграничной перепиской и членскими взносами».

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http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/̸%E1%E5...B5.D1.81.D0.B0

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

But this is a relatively new development, isn't it? I mean, my impression is that historically -- both in pre-Revolutionary times and in the Soviet era -- there was a lot of discrimination by the State against any sect that did not have "long historical roots in Russia," which in practice excluded many Protestant churches.

And perhaps the real reason was not that these newer sects were truly опасные для людей, but that they were опасные для гегемонии Православной церкви! (After all, some Evangelical Protestant sects make it very simple and quick for an adult "convert" to join the church, whereas conversion to Catholicism or Judaism can take a couple years of mandatory study.)

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I think up to late-30s the Soviet state preferred Catholics and Protestants to Orthodox church, because they saw Orthodox as being monarchist and oppressive. It was Stalin who decided that Orthodox is more useful for patriotism and to keep people consent.

The shift of preference mostly coincided with changing of the main threat from counter-revolutionary monarchists to foreign influence.

Such an interesting discussion... I am following it, but I haven't got much to add myself. Just interesting to read the responses! Thanks Iorka, for answering each one of my questions separately.

The modern situation with religion in Russia and the ex USSR is really rather contradictory, I think.

One thing that nobody mentioned is that perhaps one of the reasons many are religious today is that things genuinely were very volatile and hard for many, particularly in the 1990s. Perhaps some turned to faith for the first time in their lives during this period, and remained religious since. A Russian woman told me something to that extent, although I am not sure I understood everything she said perfectly, I might have misunderstood.

On what to do in a religious service which is not your own branch of Christianity.... I think Throbert takes a very uncompromising stance! It is quite possible to just play along a bit. I don't see how any of us who actually do have faith can be 100% certain that the particular denomination we were born into is the right one. I wouldn't take communion in a Catholic church because it might offend some serious Catholics (I am Lutheran).

Orthodox Christianity seems even more ritualistic than Catholicism.... You really have to know what is about to happen and what to do to follow along! I got very self conscious about not walking into churches without covering my head, when I was in Eastern Europe. It just felt a bit insensitive, both to the locals and possibly to God (it's actually in the Bible).

My final comment is about Stalin. In many ways he seems to have been the least "orthodox" communist of all the Soviet leaders. He just went ahead and did as he pleased, without worrying about what communist doctrine would have to say about his plans. For example making religion acceptable again during the war. In this particular question I think he was right though.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

One thing that nobody mentioned is that perhaps one of the reasons many are religious today is that things genuinely were very volatile and hard for many, particularly in the 1990s. Perhaps some turned to faith for the first time in their lives during this period, and remained religious since. A Russian woman told me something to that extent, although I am not sure I understood everything she said perfectly, I might have misunderstood.

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I know many rather young people of about 30-40 who are religious and raise their children as Orthodox. Most of them have absolutely atheist parents or their parents came to the Church after them following their grown up children. And many of them told me that they were influenced by their religious grannies and when the freedom came they could choose their faith recalling that childish experience.

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Originally Posted by mishau_

Самое ужасное, когда человек ни во что не верит и не желает уверовать, но говорит себе: ладно, пойду, поучаствую в этом спектакле.

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Миша, я только буду наказан, а ты походу уже наказан.

Я крестился только один раз. Когда прощался со своей мамой в крематории. Поп читает, певчие поют, нас всех трясёт и слёзы из глаз.

А то, что ты, не зная обстоятельств происшествия, применил ко мне данную цитату ("ладно, пойду, поучаствую в этом спектакле"), говорит о том, что ты не любишь людей, и рад предположить у них самые худшие мыслишки и мотивы поведения. И после этого ты называешь себя верующим? Наша вера говорит "возлюби ближнего своего". (Вытерто. Л.)

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Originally Posted by Юрка

Миша, я только буду наказан, а ты походу уже наказан.

Я крестился только один раз. Когда прощался со своей мамой в крематории. Поп читает, певчие поют, нас всех трясёт и слёзы из глаз.

А то, что ты, не зная обстоятельств происшествия, применил ко мне данную цитату ("ладно, пойду, поучаствую в этом спектакле"), говорит о том, что ты не любишь людей, и рад предположить у них самые худшие мыслишки и мотивы поведения. И после этого ты называешь себя верующим? Наша вера говорит "возлюби ближнего своего". (Вытерто. Л.)?

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Вот и возлюби!

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Вот и возлюби!

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