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The Russian Mind-Set::Moscow's virtual community for English speaking expats and Russians
The author makes some interesting assertions about Russian culture.
Would the Russian denizens of this forum say the author is correct? Or not?
Discussion? Comments?
"Russians seem to value the status quo and are reluctant to change."
Don't agree. If we don't easily accept liberal ideas doesn't mean we are conservative. Look on the history of the XX century and find any sign of conservatism in what happend in Russia.
"Traditional Russian values and core beliefs include: "
I'd call it "list of what differs russians from the others". Let's see:
love of children - nothing exceptional
respect for the old - nothing exceptional
sense of humour - we love good joke, but who doesn't?
strong people-orientation - it's common for all human beings
importance of friendship - agree
generosity - agree
pride - agree, but "We"-pride is higher in Russia then "I"-pride
patriotism - american patriotism is higher, but russian is different - less words and symbols, more self-sacrifice.
love of literature and arts - agree
nostalgia - agree
self-sacrifice - agree
apathy - being in apathy is a shame in Russia
conservatism - as already said, disagree
aversion to change - yeah, that's why we accepted communism, then rejected communism, then accepted liberalism, then rejected liberalism. That's why we sent first object and first man into space. Because we hate changes.
caution - no way. Cautious nations don't have word "авось" in their's dictionary :)
collectivism - agree
pessimism - no, we are very optimistic (see "авось" :) )
cynicism - no. It's some modern thing and I believe it's temporary. Just reaction for the dramatic changes of recent 20 years.
I would add: love to science and scient-fiction. Ray Bradbury is, I believe, among 3 most popular american writers in Russia.
I guess Steven King another one, but who's the third?Quote:
Ray Bradbury is, I believe, among 3 most popular american writers in Russia.
Mark TwainQuote:
Originally Posted by dtrq
Article about dacha is correct. In our awful soviet past every family could receive for free 600 square meters of land for lifetime with a right to propagate to childer. That's how bad evil communist tyrans treated us. I have no idea why we are growing fruits and vegetables on that land. May be because of our peasant traditions, may be because idleness was not common in the past - you have land, it should work.
Article about banya is also correct. There was a tradition of visiting public bathhouses (like in Ancient Rome), where unfamiliar people bath together. Nowadays people prefer finnish saunas, hot and dry. In russian banya pool with cold water isn't common - after steam room people jump into lake if there's one near (even in winter, these are very special feelings :) ), or snow if it's winter. But usually it's just a bowl with cold water nearby, or, nowadays, a cold shower.
Dammit!
Deb, that's all wrong (well, truth be told, almost all but still...)
Behaviours You May Find Puzzling
Russians can seem very rude and that they rarely smile in public.
Russians aren't rude at all unless they are forced to be rude.
Please, tell me what is considered to be rude? What made the author think so? Not saying "please"? Something else? I'd like to see a short review on this topic.
We rarely smile in public (well, it depends what you think is rare)
We don't smile all the time, that's the truth. A smile is either a sign of my own emotions towards a person I'm talking with, or a courtesy smile.
They can easily be differentiated from one another and personally I don't like these fake smiles you see when you come to an office and the girl smiling at you.
She's not my good old friend, nor have I have done anything good or hillarious to give me a smile but she's already smiling. This isn't good. She may express the attitude in some other way, like through intonations or a faint smile, not a real one. I always smile at small babies, they're sooooo sweet, they already deserved my smile by the sole fact that they are existing :)
70 years of history taught people not to trust anybody and to guard their own territory.
Bullsh!t
Just recall the famous Soviet poster "Ne Boltai" (Do not Chatter)
Bullsh!t Bullsh!t, wrong translation. It's "Don't blab out (secrets)".
There is also an inherited notion from "village Russia" that people who smile for no reason must be simpletons
No! The original saying is "Смех без причины - признак дурачины". Laughter, not smiling, you know!
They are often not used to people being polite and nice to them
They are used to it. In Russia every day we say hello to all the acquaintances we meet, when entering a public room, etc.
Otherwise we may be considered rude.
Russians seem to have very different concept of what it means to stand in a line. They tend to be pushy while getting on public transport and in the metro you will find that people try to get on while others are still trying to get off.
Well, this depends on the person. If someone in Russia will try to be pushy at me when getting into a bus the very next second he will learn to fly :)
Houses entrances, rest rooms and some other public areas may not be well cared for.
Depends on the owner. It's not common.
People - both men and women - still drink beer in pubic. While this is not publicly frowned upon...
This is not publicly frowned upon. If it were, we wouldn't drink beer in public. We don't drink either vodka or wine in public. Only beer.
Something like that.
The article seems to be aimed at creating a negative image of a Russian. F!ck it!
I don't think it's aimed at creating negative image. It's just bunch of stamps and observations with no effort to verify or analyze. Hundreds of such articles exist, nothing interesting.
I don't understand that stamp about russians standing close to each other while speaking. This explanations "This may be a remnant from the Soviet past when people had to be very careful about what they said and always made sure that no one else was listening." is ridiculous. USSR was not Oceania from "1984". You could speak out loud anything that was not unethical or illegal. As well as in any other country. There were some ideological topics that should had been discussed with care. But danger of such things is greatly exaggerated.
We just don't understand what "personal space" is. Of course, I would not feel comfortable standing in front of someone who's not my girlfriends with our faces closer than lets say 50cm. But I don't have any special "lets talk" distance. Well, it would be a bit weird if I speak with someone who's 5m from me, if i can come closer.
The good news are that Westerners finally forget some old cliches like drunken bears playing on balalaika )Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
Мне статья понравилась. Автор довольно глубоко и широко изучил нашу жизнь. Но есть моменты в статье, которые не надо воспринимать буквально. Например, приметы. Я ни разу не видел человека, бросающего соль через плечо. Может, такая традиция и была, но лет сто назад где-нибудь в деревне у крестьян или у купцов.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
Ещё момент: автор назвал нищих попрошаек в транспорте военными ветеранами. На самом деле это чаще всего профессиональные "нищие", использующие военную форму как профессиональную одежду.
В общем, моя оценка 4+ или 5- (по пятибальной системе).
I think the author was writing mainly to an audience of English-speaking ex-pats who have no experience with Russian culture. I agree, a lot of his conjectures about why Russians smile less than Americans, or stand close, etc, are crap. I never thought it was "rooted in the oppressive Soviet past."Quote:
Originally Posted by Medved
However, I have heard from other Americans before that they think Russians are "rude." I never thought Russians were rude personally, so I asked people why they made this observation and from what I can gather, it's just a cultural misunderstanding on the part of (mostly) Americans. Americans do not tend to be as direct as Russians are, and they will mistake directness for rudeness.
Americans and other English-language speakers seem more passive to me. For example, if they want a drink of water they will say, "Would you please get me a drink of water?" Whereas a Russian would probably just say "I need water" or "I want water."
I think sometimes we misunderstand each other precisely because of cultural differences. Americans say "I'm sorry" all the time and I've heard from lots of Russians that this makes us seem insincere, but in America it is considered proper and polite.
Generally, I think reading motives into the behavior of foreigners is a bad idea. What might be perceived as "rude" in one culture is honesty/directness in another, and what might be perceived as "insincere" in one culture is politeness/kindness in another.
I agree, the author is reaching a bit and sounds like yet another westerner trying too hard to psychoanalyze Russian behavior. I think a lot of the behaviors he is describing are not a direct result of Soviet times, but reach back far further than that and are not wrong or a sign of oppression but just cultural.
It took me a long time to get used to Russian concepts of personal space. But I never once thought, "oh, yes, this must be a sign of the oppressive Soviet times." I think that is a very strange, and unfair, observation to make. It seems like a lot of westerners will try to psychoanalyze Russia, as if they need to have some time or place to explain what caused the people to behave a certain way. And maybe Russian history has a role in shaping Russian behavior, but if so, it certainly goes back much further than the comparable blink-of-an-eye that was Soviet times. Some cultural behaviors may be more a result of the intermix of different ethnicities in Russia, too. The vikings certainly brought their own culture with them, as did the mongols, and the turks, and other ethnic groups which became part of the Russian melting pot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
Я тоже никогда не видела человека, бросающего соль через плечо.Quote:
Originally Posted by Юрка
Но столько раз, мои друзья настояли, чтобы я сесть за минуту молчания перед отъездом в путешествие :)
Bingo! That's it!Quote:
Americans do not tend to be as direct as Russians are
That's exactly what an American told me several years ago when I just started to learn English.
I guess the roots of this opinion come from the lack of knowlege of the right, roundabout English :)
What we learn at schools and further is just simplified, direct English.
Of course high-educated translators or like, they know the other sort of English but commonly we know only this version of the language.
So in my view, the folks just mistake language constraints for rudeness.
I think it could be based in language as well as culturally. Well, since culture and language are so tightly interwoven that makes sense. English is a rather passive language. In my experience Russians are usually very direct and honest. It has never offended me because my personality is very much the same, perhaps as a result of my Scandinavian/Viking heritage. I am a very direct person. This is frequently misunderstood and people have told me they thought I was "rude" when my intent was completely the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medved
Just this past weekend I was with some friends in Canada, and one of them told me I was rude because my "approach" when I asked her a question was not "subtle" enough. It was a silly situation, actually. She had an argument with a mutual friend on Facebook and I asked if the person was OK. She got very upset with me about how I asked and said that I should have phrased the question differently, more like, "I am acquainted with so-and-so. Can I ask how she is?" She totally judged my entire personality based on that one little interaction and now she won't speak with me! And all I was trying to do was show concern for a mutual friend. I can't wrap my mind around this passive way of talking. It would never have occurred to me to back into the question like that. I don't understand why just asking "is she ok?" was wrong.
But that is just a simple example.
Автор попал в самую точку. Россияне очень любят давать советы, хоть это и бесит всех и высмеивается постоянно. Даже поговрка есть: "у нас каждый суслик - агроном"Quote:
Russians love to comment and give advice. Don't be surprised to get unsolicited advice on how to dress your children in winter or on the necessity of wearing a hat in cold winter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LaolvEzivg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUqBtVdWyx0Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
They aren't Russians though =))
Americans do the same thing, though not usually to complete strangers. Once you are considered a "friend" though, they may start giving unwanted advice about how to run your business, how to treat your wife and kids, etc. More than advice though, I would say America is the land of opinions. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone thinks their opinion is important and equally valid. We also have a saying: "Opinions are like assh*les. Everyone has one and they all stink."Quote:
Originally Posted by sergei
I haven't checked it but some культуролог once told me that during Stalin's time дачи were distributed among the political elites and intelligentsia (so it was kind of a 'status symbol', of course it was not a place to grow staples there). Only later дачи are becoming as we know them now. As far as I remember there is something like дачный посёлок писателей in Большое Переделкино near Moscow (so these are this kind of дача).Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
Мне понравилось в статье несколько моментов.
1. Что страна не фундаменталистская. Это значит, что незнание традиций не приводит к летальному результату.
2. Автор не выдаёт свои гипотезы за истину.
3. Многие наблюдения точны и не поверхностны.
The article is under the Survival guide section (so there are some useful tips and the general discourse seems rather practical than 'political, negative, etc...').
There are some inaccuracies in the author's observations (some of them are just technical, some are cultural).
1. Russians love and value going to the theatre, opera, ballet and concerts. The arts are avidly devoured by all sections of society - the idea that plays or classical music could be "difficult" or unpopular is rarely encountered. They also enjoy attending readings of literature and poetry - i wish it were true, but this is a false statement. The classical arts tradition and school are strong in Russia, but the active participants (apart from performers and artists) are 'the culturati'. The usual pastimes are TV, football, dacha, shashliki, beer, package holidays, you name it. Classical arts is generally regarded as a more sophisticated pastime, sometimes (not always) within the elitist context.
2. Redcurrants usually grow in gardens and private dachas, not in forests (just a technical inaccuracy).
3. The reason why people stand close to each other in lines is more difficult to explain. In fact the explanation is obvious from a paragraph somewhere above: When you go to pay utility bills at a Russian bank, you may find that when it is almost your turn one or two people show up who had "reserved" a place in the line and then took care of something else at another counter or just sit down while waiting for their turn. So there is always a chance that someone may take a place BEFORE you in the line and on the subconscious level people try to control the space before them in the line.
4. Very often such questions arise from "fellow professionals" who are keen to know how their profession might be valued abroad. It must be added that they often ask questions about how much they earn in this or that country to compare the information with their own wages, irrespective of the professional interest.
5. While Russians devote considerable time and cost to their own personal wardrobe and grooming.... - Better to replace it with While MANY RUSSIAN WOMEN devote considerable time and cost to their own personal wardrobe and grooming...
6. many women had (and still have) the dual responsibility of adding to family income through a full-time job and of caring... - Better to replace it with Most of the women had (and still have) the dual responsibility of adding to family income through a full-time job and of caring...
7. The mindset of the younger Russian generation is not as much pro-anything, as it is anti-communist. - this premise can be discussed if people about 27-30 and over are meant (the rule of thumb could be Это те, кто был пионером). If they are younger they often have no idea what communism in practice means, in which case such 'anti-' feeling would be purely theoretical.
8. You might hear children shout something like "Hey Smirnova" or "Hey Smirnov". - Could hardly be imagined with pre-school kids. I would argue this is mostly true for high school kids (старшеклассники в средней школе).
9. you can ask for "Gospozha Tatiana Smirnova" (Mrs. Tatiana Smirnova) or "Gospodin Sergey Smirnov" (Mr. Sergey Smirnov). - Incorrect. Must be you can ask for "Gospozha Smirnova" (Mrs. Tatiana Smirnova) or "Gospodin Smirnov" (Mr. Sergey Smirnov). - only last name is traditionally used with Господин/Госпожа.
10. The shortened names Sasha and Zhenya are used for both females and males. - It must be added that there are many other names which take the same form for male and female in Russian.
11. about Вы (Vy)... Note that this word starts with a capital letter, which is similar to the French "Vous" and the German "Sie". - Incorrect. Better to say: Note that this word OFTEN starts with a capital letter, which is similar to the French "Vous" and the German "Sie". (Capitalization of Вы is used to signify a higher degree of respect in Russian, while in German it's the only correct 2nd person singular polite address form. I am not sure about French, but as far as I can tell in French the use of 'vous' et 'Vous' is absolutely the same as Russian "вы" и "Вы.)
12. there are only 31 letters plus two silent symbols. Incorrect. There are 33 letters in the Russian language. Though it helps to warn that 2 letters serve as silent symbols.
13. Do not cross your legs with the ankle on the knee or put your feet on the table. It is considered impolite to show others the soles of your shoes. It's not about the soles of one's shoes. Such body language is generally regarded as suspicious licence, legs on the table is regarded as licence - who is going to clean the table afterwards? - it's a cultural thing.
The whole Russian history can and must be used to analyse social behaviour patterns. To speak only about 'Soviet times' (1920s - 1991) is not enough, it's 70 years of history, though their critical importance can by no means be denied. I would certainly say something about the 90s - Russia's sorry new history - which changed the social behaviour patterns in many ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
Legs on the table is considered rude almost everywhere, I think. In America it certainly depends on your relationship with the people whose table you are putting your feet on as well as the quality of their furniture. Some of my friends have cheap furniture, and they even put their feet on it and so they don't object if their guests do the same. But other friends of mine have fine furniture and it would be very rude to put your feet up, especially with shoes still on!Quote:
Originally Posted by alexsms
In Russia, of course, people usually take off their shoes when they are in someone's home. In America, this is not as common a practice. People normally wear their shoes right into the house, on the carpets and floors. I tried to get my husband into the practice of removing his shoes indoors and wearing slippers, but alas, I am unable to train him :)
Some of our friends prefer guests to leave their shoes inside the doorway, and they always make that clear by saying so as soon as you walk in the door. But most of them don't have any such rules in place. However, if it is muddy outdoors and your shoes are dirty, it is considered very impolite to walk in and get dirt all over everything.
Hmmm. In American culture, it's generally advisable for a MAN to cross his legs with the ankle on the knee (if he chooses to cross his legs at all). To cross "knee over knee" looks a bit женеподобный to us. But "ankle on ankle" is okay for both sexes, I think.Quote:
13. Do not cross your legs with the ankle on the knee... It is considered impolite to show others the soles of your shoes.
Incidentally, one other "cultural clash" that I remember from Moscow in the early 1990s (and please, understand that I'm generalizing here and I hope that no one takes it too seriously or gets offended!):
Russians had an almost neurotic horror of the street-dirt on the bottom of people's shoes, but didn't worry much about the smell of their armpits.
Americans had an almost neurotic horror of armpit-odors, but didn't worry much about the street-dirt on the bottom of their shoes.
(Objectively speaking, neither dirt on the shoes nor stinky armpit sweat is likely to spread any kind of disease -- so in both cases, the "horror" is a culturally-learned aesthetic reaction and has nothing whatsoever to do with logic or medical science.)
Americans are a little over-obsessed with hygiene, I think. We cover up every little odor with endless assortments of sprays and perfumes and candles and unguents and so on... I actually found it a little refreshing in Russia and Europe, not to worry so much about bodily smells.Quote:
Russians had an almost neurotic horror of the street-dirt on the bottom of people's shoes, but didn't worry much about the smell of their armpits.
Americans had an almost neurotic horror of armpit-odors, but didn't worry much about the street-dirt on the bottom of their shoes.
(Objectively speaking, neither dirt on the shoes nor stinky armpit sweat is likely to spread any kind of disease -- so in both cases, the "horror" is a culturally-learned aesthetic reaction and has nothing whatsoever to do with logic or medical science.)
I hate armpit stink. Or wet stains there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
" Better Sorry Than Safe?
17 May 2002 | Issue 2439
By Michele A. Berdy
Avos: (participle) faith in success or good fortune, often unfounded. Can be translated as faith in good luck, trust in a favorable outcome, counting on/expecting a miracle or windfall, "with luck," or "God willing."
My trusty Dal dictionary tells me avos is a conflation of a vot seichas (a-vo-se) which I'd translate as "any minute now." As in, "Any minute now, Prosya, the rain will come and save our crops" or "You just wait, Vanya, any minute now my company will pay me the wages it owes me and then we can buy some drink." Over time, it's come to represent a deeply held belief in a deus ex machina salvation.
I think of avos as one of those seminal concepts in Russian life, something that goes into making Russians Russian. It's what Ivan the Fool counted on to get him out of a jam in Russian fairy tales, and what saved him time and again, despite his foolishness. Today it's what spurs the driver of the Mercedes 600SL to slip into the lane of oncoming traffic at 120 kilometers per hour: with certainty (totally unfounded) that he'll zip back into his lane before a truck appears.
It's avos that was responsible for probably half the babies in the country -- their parents were sure they could make love without protection just this once avos pronesyot (with any luck nothing will happen -- literally misfortune will pass us by).
And it's avos government officials count on when they plan a budget in which expenditures routinely exceed revenues by 50 percent: Somehow they are sure that the heavens will open and there will be enough money to pay the pensioners, the military and state employees. (And if the heavens don't deliver, maybe the IMF will.)
I can see how avos took hold of the Russian psyche. Imagine you are a Russian peasant, circa 1235. You live in a dark and smoky hovel with about 25 of your closest relatives, two goats, five chickens and a pig. Your daily back breaking struggle to work the land barely produces enough to sustain life, and you never know when you will be wiped out by a drought, flash flood, hailstorm, or early or late frost. Or when the local prince will need all your grain for some campaign in the south. Or when the church will need it to buy gold leaf for the new cupola. Or when Mongol invaders will come screaming over the steppes for a round of raping, pillaging and burning.
There is no way you can pull yourself and your family out of the muck and mud of poverty by your own efforts. When you are utterly powerless and without rights, the only thing you can do is hope that God willing the prince will collect enough grain before the officials get to your house or any minute now the Mongols will get bored with raping and pillaging and pass your village by.
We Western plodders, with our Protestant work ethic, our belief that "slow and steady wins the race," our genetic memories of gentler climates and richer land, never enjoy the adrenaline rush of avos. We rarely walk off the diving board of caution into the void of "it will all work out fine."
When a Russian driver stops dead in the middle of the Garden Ring at rush hour to consider whether he should pay his cell phone bill now or not, and it doesn't even occur to him to be afraid that the eight-ton Kamaz behind him will turn his car into a concertina -- well, this is evidence of a far deeper belief in a benevolent God than I possess. I envy him.
But a tip for state budget makers: Remember all those babies. Avos doesn't always work."
Michele A. Berdy, a Moscow-based translator and interpreter, is co-author of a Russian-English dictionary.
Better Sorry Than Safe? | The Moscow Times Archive | The Moscow Times
http://content.artofmanliness.com/up.../pitstains.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Medved
Про гигиену в историческом разрезе.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
Письмо Анны Ярославны из Парижа 11-го века:Quote:
Батюшка, да за что ты меня ненавидишь? И отправил в эту грязную деревню, где умыться-то негде
13 привычек, которые есть только у нашего человека
Под «нашими» в данном случае подразумеваются те, кто живет на территории России или в странах СНГ. Потому что детство у всех было примерно одинаковое, семейные традиции, обычаи, правила и приметы — тоже.
Узнать друг друга и себя в этих привычках очень просто. Это не плохо и не хорошо, — скорее, мило, тепло и по-родному.
1. Наряжаться перед походом в магазин.
Мы любим хорошо выглядеть. Спортивные штаны с вытянутыми коленями и зеленая растянутая футболка — не вариант даже для обычного похода в магазин. А вот милое платье и каблуки — идеальный наряд для прогулки. И это прекрасно.
2. Присесть на минуту перед поездкой.
Когда чемоданы уже собраны, мы обычно делаем паузу, чтобы спокойно посидеть минуту — на дорожку. Многие не любят эту традицию, считая ее пережитком язычества, но эта минута элементарно дает передышку в суматохе сборов.
3. Говорить действительно длинные и сложные тосты.
Только самый ленивый русский человек скажет простой тост «За здоровье!» или что-то в этом роде. Серьезно. Мы всегда готовы услышать длинные анекдоты и пожелания. Потому что нам есть что сказать.
4. Рассказывать анекдоты так часто, как это возможно.
Мы можем начать рассказывать историю и в середине воскликнуть: «О, это как в том анекдоте!» И обязательно вспомним его. Ведь мы любим посмеяться.
5. Поздравлять друг друга после душа или сауны.
Хотя по правилам нужно желать друг другу легкого пара до бани, мы говорим «С легким паром!» исключительно после бани или душа.
6. Отвечать честно и развернуто на вопрос «Как дела?».
«Как дела?» У иностранцев на этот дежурный вопрос принято отвечать дежурным «Хорошо, спасибо!». У нас все не так. Если уж нашего человека спросили, как у него дела, значит, нужно ответить по-настоящему и полно. Никто не рассказывает свою жизнь за полгода, но дать вменяемый ответ — почему нет?
7. Не улыбаться незнакомцам.
Мы не улыбаемся людям, с которыми просто случайно встретились глазами. По крайней мере, не во все 32. Улыбки у нас искренние только для друзей, родных и любимых.
8. Праздновать Новый год с большим размахом, чем Рождество.
Елка — на Новый год. Подарки — на Новый год. Новый год — главный зимний праздник. Рождество отмечается гораздо меньшим количеством людей и гораздо скромнее.
9. Постоянно пересматривать и цитировать старые советские мультфильмы.
Мы часто и с большим удовольствием напеваем песенки и произносим фразы из советских мультфильмов, сохраняя интонацию и голос персонажей, нисколько не смущаясь посторонних. Кто-нибудь пробовал цитировать иностранные мультики? Кроме смеха дятла Вуди и песни про Чипа и Дейла я вообще ничего не помню. А в наших старых добрых кино и мультфильмах смысла столько, что до конца жизни можно переосмысливать.
10. Называть всех женщин «девушка».
Если мы хотим позвать официантку, мы кричим «Девушка!» Если обращаемся к 40-летней женщине, мы называем ее «девушка». Любая женщина, которую язык повернется назвать девушкой, для нас — девушка. И все довольны.
11. Садиться за стол поужинать и просиживать так часами до полуночи или дольше, постоянно разговаривая.
Когда мы компанией собираемся за ужином, мы садимся за стол, ужинаем и разговариваем. Затем мы просто разговариваем, потом еще едим и разговариваем, потом пьем чай и разговариваем и, даже уходя домой, мы, стоя на пороге, еще некоторое время разговариваем. Мы любим поболтать и поесть. Особенно салаты с майонезом.
12. Никогда не выкидывать пакеты.
Серьезно, наверно, в каждом доме есть пакеты с пакетами. И ведь они используются.
13. Никогда не ходить в гости без подарка.
Это может быть тортик или вино к ужину, шоколад или цветы (при условии, что их нечетное количество). На самом деле, неважно, что именно, главное — что-нибудь принести. Потому что «ну не придешь же с пустыми руками».
Источник: 13 © AdMe.ru