Moscow versus Petersburg

Forgive me if this has come up before. I have never been to either city, but in my reading about Russia in the 19th century, more than once I have come across comparisons between the two places. Moscow was seen as truly Russian while Petersburg was more European, and people from the western city had a quite different view of life, manners and morals etc. compared to Moscovites. My question: Is there still today a sharp difference between Moscovites and Petersburgers or have things evened out since Anna Karenina was written?

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

My question: Is there still today a sharp difference between Moscovites and Petersburgers

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Of course not.

Things have changed of course, but some rivalry exists even now. Both cities have become more cosmopolitan. In the times when St. Petersburg was the capital, Moscow was considered more provincial (by St. Petersburgers), now is the other way around (well, I'm a Moscovite :lol: ). St. Petersburg is called 'the northern capital' sometimes. And the St.Petersburgers often call their city 'the cultural capital'.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

And the St.Petersburgers often call their city 'the cultural capital'.

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... which actually is not true at all (but don't say that to St.Petersburgers!!! :D )

Yep, they are a bit zealous about that :)

I am niether Moscovita nor Petersburger and I think that St. Petersburg is more beautiful from the architecture point of view. The buildings are decorated, more Europian in St/ P than in Moscow. Petergof, Pushkino, the cente of St. P are amazing. The people are carmer, they needn't hurry so much.
Moscow is a financial center, it's a real megapolis. And the architecture is mostly modern in Moscow. People are always in a hurry, they try to catch the life.

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Originally Posted by Pollymundo

The people are carmer

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What do you mean, "carmer"?

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Moscow is a financial center

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Moscow also is a true cultural centre of Russia. All the best theatres are in Moscow. And the myth which says that Petersburgers are more courteous is just rubbish.

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Originally Posted by Оля

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Originally Posted by Pollymundo

The people are carmer

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What do you mean, "carmer"?

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I think it's calmer.

I read an interview with a Russian opera star who said that singers don't like to visit Moscow because the extreme cold affects their voices adversely. I believe the season for opera runs during the colder moths of the year. It seems as though the climate of St. Petersburg is a little milder than Moscow's. If foreign artists prefer the nothern capital, could this be one of the reasons why it claims cultural precedence?

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

singers don't like to visit Moscow because the extreme cold affects their voices adversely.

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Someone who calls Moscow weather "extreme cold" should be from Africa.

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It seems as though the climate of St. Petersburg is a little milder than Moscow's.

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In St. Petersburg, it's much much colder than in Moscow!! Just believe me!!

Does anyone else agree that Petersburg is much colder than Moscow?

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Does anyone else agree that Petersburg is much colder than Moscow?

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Sorry, I am not "anyone else", but I can add that maybe not "much much", but Petersburg is definitely colder.
Last weekend I travelled from Petersburg to Moscow with a girl from Khabarovsk, and she said, too, that Moscow is noticeably warmer. At 12.00 we left Petersburg, and at 23.00 we were in Moscow. We roamed about the streets till one o'clock in the morning, and it was warmer than in Petersburg in the daytime.
The main thing why Petersburg is colder is the cold wind from the sea, I think.

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Does anyone else agree that Petersburg is much colder than Moscow?

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Check it on any map. St. Petersburg is 800 km to the North from Moscow. Damp cold - what could be worse?

Sometimes it's easy to recognize a Petersburger with the way they talk: they speak with opening their mouth just a little; kind of speaking with a side of their mouth. Also, Petersburgers seem outward less emotional, somewhat restrained in their behaviour. That is not to say ALL Petersburgers are like that, but whomever I knew were that way. Moscovites are usually more relaxed and seem outward more open. That is not to offend Petersburgers in any way, as this is purely subjective and possible others would not find that true. (And probably being more restrained might even be considered a virtue by some.) Other than that, I would say there's no noticeable difference.

Here is some information from the site pagoda.ru:

Average yearly temp. St. Petersburg: 5.4 degrees C.

Average yearly temp. Moscow: 5.4 degrees C.

Average January temp. St. Petersburg: -6 degrees C.

Average January temp. Moscow: -7.5 degrees C.

Average June temp. St. Petersburg and Moscow: both about 18 degrees C.

My understanding is that being near to the sea or an ocean tends to make the climate more moderate, while being far from the sea favours severity (the so called 'continental climate'). This would explain why the two cities can have the same average annual temperature despite St. Petersburg being 800 km to the north of Moscow. It's not just a question of how far north you are.

The singer who said that artists did not like to sing in Moscow because of the cold in winter was not from Africa, but from Russia itself.

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My understanding is that being near to the sea or an ocean tends to make the climate more moderate

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It's only thanks to the Gulfstream. Tell that to people who live in Murmansk where sea freezes in winter.

Check relative humidity averages. Believe me, you would prefer dry -10 C in Moscow than damp -3 C in St.P.

I've got some friend from Siberia and they say that while they have -30C back home it feels much colder in Moscow while it's only -5C here. It's humdity that matters (checked by my own skin).

Some more info. from the same site:

Average yearly humidity St. Petersburg: 78%

Average yearly humidity Moscow: 77%

January av. St. P.: 85%

January av. Moscow: 83%

June av. St. P.: 68%

June av. Moscow 70%.

I am not convinced by the statement that the moderating influence of the sea only applies to areas bathed by the Gulfstream. There has to be some reason why a city 800 km north of another can have the same average annual temperature as its more southerly counterpart. Physics suggests that water stores the warmth of the sun during the day and releases it at night. But I am not a metereologist, and I suspect that you are not one either, and until such a person appears I fear this discussion will not be too productive.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Believe me, you would prefer dry -10 C in Moscow than damp -3 C in St.P.

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+1

When it's +20 in summer in Moscow, it's quite warm; but when it's +20 in summer in Petersburg, it could be very cold, because of the strong, cold wind and different dampness.

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The singer who said that artists did not like to sing in Moscow because of the cold in winter was not from Africa, but from Russia itself.

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Probably he meant that Russia itself is cold; I can't believe he could say that Moscow is colder than Petersburg. What was the singer's name, by the way?

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

I am not convinced.

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Well, you're arguing with people who have actually been in St. Petersburg and in Moscow in winter and can compare their experience. There are lies, big lies and statistics...

Come, feel it for yourself if you don't believe us.

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There has to be some reason why a city 800 km north of another can have the same average annual temperature as its more southerly counterpart. Physics suggests that water stores the warmth of the sun during the day and releases it at night. But I am not a metereologist, and I suspect that you are not one either, and until such a person appears I fear this discussion will not be too productive.

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There is simply nothing between St. Petersburg and Moscow to stop the weather. It's a flat plain. Rains come from the Baltic Sea and pour it down all their way South (they always go South for some reason). Since clouds carry more water when they are over St. P. it's only natural that you would feel colder there than in Moscow even if temperatures in the both cities are the same.

In Artic lattitudes (beyond the Polar circle where the Scandinavian peninsula effectively blocks the Gulfstream, sea simply freezes in winter making no difference whatsoever).

Ramil, here are some results of a search for the term "moderating influence of the sea" minus gulfstream:

"St. Petersburg experiences a humid continental climate of the cool summer subtype, due to the distinct moderating influence of the Baltic Sea cyclones" Wikipedia.

"Due to the moderating influence of the sea, the temperature in Bombay undergoes little seasonal fluctuation" theory.tifr.res.in

"Because of the moderating influence of the sea, places in eastern China have a much lower annual range of temperature than continental areas in the west." google.books

I could cite other qoutes that show that the said moderating influence of the sea is not tied to the gulfstream.

To be convincing you have to do better than: I went there last week with my girlfriend etc. Moscovites may well be biased, so producing some hard facts would make your case more credible. It's easy to dismiss evidence that doesn't support you as lies and statistics.

Russia may be different (isn't it always :) ) but in England when it rains in winter in tends to become warmer rather than colder.

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

To be convincing you have to do better than: I went there last week with my girlfriend etc. Moscovites may well be biased, so producing some hard facts would make your case more credible. It's easy to dismiss evidence that doesn't support you as lies and statistics.

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I am from Petersburg. I lived there till I was 16. Am I not convincing for you either, even now?

I spent A LOT of time in both cities. PETERSBURG IS COLD!! MOSCOW IS WARMER!! Period.

If you don't believe us Russian people on this forum, why you ask us here, and not some meteorologist in some meteorology centre?

Well, I will add one more thing - can you find any facts of the 'moderating influence of the sea' for Alaska, Northern Canada, Northern Siberia, Norway, Greenland etc.?

It's Arctic. Sea doesn't moderate anything there it just freezes.
The Gulfstream alone is moderating the climate over the British Islands.

The article on St. Petersburg in the Russian version of Wikipedia, presumably written by a Russian, says this:

"The humid, seaside climate of St. Petersburg, with warm summers and moderate winters, unusual for such latitudes, is explained by the influence of the Gulfstream...The character of the winter weather is defined by the fundamental influence of the Atlantic Ocean and the Baltic Sea. Winter in St. Petersburg is moderately cold, with some thawing that can last up to the middle of the season... Precipitation falls predominantly as snow..."

Ramil, Moscow actually gets more precipitation than Petersburg annually (705mm compared to 625). In winter most of it in both places is snow so the "rain makes it feel colder" argument does not apply. First it was the latitude that made it colder, then the humidity, then the rain...

If Оля lived in Petersburg up to the age of 16, why did he not make that argument when the question first came up, instead of saying: I spent a day there recently? I will believe the Russians in this discussion (all two of them) when they make themselves believable.

In any case, the question at issue is not a matter of life and death. I prefer to recall Pushkin's joke: In Russia in the winter it is too cold for love and in the summer there is too much light.

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Originally Posted by Martin Miles

If Оля lived in Petersburg up to the age of 16, why did he not...

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Does anyone else think my avatar looks male?..

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make that argument when the question first came up, instead of saying: I spent a day there recently?

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Sorry, I didn't know I should answer like I'm in a police office.

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I will believe the Russians in this discussion (all two of them) when they make themselves believable.

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Ha ha... So you mean my sentence "Last weekend I travelled from Petersburg to Moscow with a girl from Khabarovsk, and she said, too, that Moscow is noticeably warmer" doesn't sound believable?? :D And such a strict tone!..
You asked, we answered. You don't believe us - it's your problem. Don't ask us then. Your feedbacks are quite impolite. People want to answer your question and reply to you in good faith, and you call them liars... You're strange.

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The article on St. Petersburg in the Russian version of Wikipedia, presumably written by a Russian...

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Since it's written that climate of St. Petersburg has "warm summers", I don't think that the acticle was written by a Russian. Perhaps by a Petersburger who loves his city very much and wants to place it in a good light (for tourists or whoever).

P.S.
By the way, Wiki says that Petersburgers pronounce the Russian word "что" in a specific way, not like people in Moscow and other parts of Russia do. But in fact they pronounce it exactly like Moscovites and other Russians. You can hear that specific pronunciation of "что" from some very old people only. (But why am I wasting my efforts? You believe Wiki, weather forecasts and statistics, not real people.)

I had a great fun by reading this topic. It seems that Moscow and St. Petersburg hate each other.

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Originally Posted by Анечка

I had a great fun by reading this topic. It seems that Moscow and St. Petersburg hate each other.

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How did you arrive to such a facinating conclusion? :shock:

being a foreigner I do not know much about the difference between the people of these 2 cities, apart from historically (don't know what is like now) St. Petersburgers spoke Russian with a better accent than Muscovites...

but...

I have noticed something about people from Moscow, and please don't get mad at me anybody :D but umm, I don't think I'm crazy... but seems to me a lot of people I've met from Moscow have a certain strange attitude... I'm not saying everyone, but enough of them have it that I notice it is not unique to just one individual. This attitude is something like they are a little suspicious of people, at least people they just met...

ok maybe it's just me... but I swear that's what it seems like. Not everyone is like that of course, but enough that you think it is not just coincidence.

the replies in the thread is so funny, team SP and team M lol

Last year I went to Moscow during the summer and it was HOOOOOOOOOT!!

I'm brazilian, so I thought I'd be used to it, but it was one whole month of non-stop 35ºC, with the plus of the smog in the beginning of August.

Either way, I liked there. Though, there are many problems, but hey, is there a place in the world where there are none? =)

The last summer was unique.

I'm going back this summer to Moscow. Let's see how it's gonna be. =)

Well, I'm here in Moscow again and the summer is HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTT just like last year. I'm really having a bad time to sleep at night because of it. =/ I'm thinking of buying an air conditioner and taking it with me everywhere =P

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Originally Posted by fabriciocarraro

Well, I'm here in Moscow again and the summer is HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTTTT just like last year. I'm really having a bad time to sleep at night because of it. =/ I'm thinking of buying an air conditioner and taking it with me everywhere =P

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Wow! It's great! Welcome! How long do you be in Moscow?

I arrived here on the 16th of July and I'm staying until the 9th of August! Thanks for the welcome! =)

To be sure Moscow is colder in the winter but a little bit warmer in the summer and you may lay to that. And whoever argues with that ought to be keelhauled or hanged from the yardarm.

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Originally Posted by Анечка

I had a great fun by reading this topic. It seems that Moscow and St. Petersburg hate each other.

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Oh, definitely! Moscow was made the capital first time by Mongol-Tartars, second time by Bolsheviks. It explains a lot.

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Originally Posted by Stanislav

Oh, definitely! Moscow was made the capital first time by Mongol-Tartars, second time by Bolsheviks. It explains a lot.

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Yep. And St. Petersburg became the capital by the Anti-Christ Peter the 1st who was a paranoid psyco and showed no mercy whatsoever. His new capital had also become proverbial by the sheer number of people who died from diseases and hard labour building the city on the swamps. It explains the rest. ;)

LOL and generally, St. Peterstburg is built on a giant swamp. And weather there is miserable.

I just spent six days in St.P. and it was sunny 1/3 of the time.