underachiever

I've had a very long and wearisome dispute with some fans of the Russian movie "Kin Dza Dza" about a subtitle for one of its episodes. The dispute concerns the Russian word двоечник which does not have a precise correcpondence in English. Двоечник in Russian means "poor student", "student who earns poor grades", and nothing else and nothing more.
The guys are insisting on using the English word 'underachiever' for that.
As I understand from another native's very careful explanation, underachiever is someone who's not operating at his level being capable of more. For example, a student who earns A when he can earn A+. So I think the word is not fine for translating the Russian 'двоечник'.
I'm going to ask for your help in this question, could you (natives, please) express your opinion?
Here's the context, i.e. the lines which are pronounced in this episode:

- Vladimir Nikolaevich, you have a wife at home, a son doing badly at school, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for... And [instead of dealing with all those your problems] you're here, fooling about. It can finish bad.

What I want to ask is:
1. How does sound the line above?

2. How would sound this line below and is the word 'underachiever' realy fine here:
you have a wife at home, a son who's an underachiever, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for...

3. And what about the third variant:
you have a wife at home, a son who's a poor student, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for...

Your help would be very appreciated!!!
Thank you!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

I've had a very long and wearisome dispute with some fans of the Russian movie "Kin Dza Dza" about a subtitle for one of its episodes. The dispute concerns the Russian word двоечник which does not have a precise correcpondence in English. Двоечник in Russian means "poor student", "student who earns poor grades", and nothing else and nothing more.
The guys are insisting on using the English word 'underachiever' for that.
As I understand from another native's very careful explanation, underachiever is someone who's not operating at his level being capable of more. For example, a student who earns A when he can earn A+. So I think the word is not fine for translating the Russian 'двоечник'.
I'm going to ask for your help in this question, could you (natives, please) express your opinion?

---

My understanding of the word "underachiever" is the same as yours, so I think you're correct acoording to the above explanation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

Here's the context, i.e. the lines which are pronounced in this episode:

- Vladimir Nikolaevich, you have a wife at home, a son doing badly at school, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for... And [instead of dealing with all those your problems] you're here, fooling about. It can finish bad.

What I want to ask is:
1. How does sound the line above?

---

It's nearly perfect, but not quite. I would have written:

Vladimir Nikolaevich, you have a wife at home, a son doing badly at school, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for... And [instead of dealing with these problems] you're here, fooling around. It will end badly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

2. How would sound this line below and is the word 'underachiever' realy fine here:
you have a wife at home, a son who's an underachiever, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for...

---

It's inferior to your first example. The point is that the child is doing badly, not that he is doing worse than he is capable of doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

3. And what about the third variant:
you have a wife at home, a son who's a poor student, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for...

---

Even worse. This one says the same thing as the first sentence but isn't as idiomatic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scotcher

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

2. How would sound this line below and is the word 'underachiever' realy fine here:
you have a wife at home, a son who's an underachiever, a cooperative flat you haven't paid for...

---

It's inferior to your first example. The point is that the child is doing badly, not that he is doing worse than he is capable of doing.

---

Thank you very much, scotcher.
I just didn't get your opinion about the second example. Do you mean it's the same as the first one and sounds fine?

What does 'inferior' ("It's inferior to your first example") here mean? :oops: I've found in the dictionary too many meanings and I didn't get the sense of the sentence... :oops:

Inferior means not as good. (The opposite of superior.)

Anyway, to confuse you some more:

An underachiever is not necessarily a bad student. It is someone who does not reach his or her potential.

It's hard to tell you which works better (doing badly in school or underachiever) since we do not know the character in question. I'd say doing badly in school is more encompassing (the son could be an underachiever or just not good in school at all). It also, to me, fits better with the sentence. It's much more factually negative. That is, the word underachiever can express an opinion.

Thanks again!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

It's hard to tell you which works better (doing badly in school or underachiever)

---

Well, actually, taking into account that:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

An underachiever is not necessarily a bad student. It is someone who does not reach his or her potential.

---

and that the character says "у тебя дома сын-двоечник", and that:

Quote:

---

Двоечник in Russian means "poor student", "student who earns poor grades", and nothing else and nothing more.

---

...I think it's not so hard to say which works better... :roll:

I don't know, I think "underachiever" can just mean a bad student.

To clarify -

A Двоечник could just be a bad student (in English) or could be a bad student because he/she is an underachiever.

Underachiever is more encompassing. But, these are just kibbles and bits, really.

What I meant by it's hard to tell which phrase/word to use is that if the character of the son is actually an underachiever (which usually means he is very smart, just not applying himself), it would work. If the character of the son is just a bad student, then he is not under his level of achievement.

A son doing badly in school, to me, carries more weight in the sentence.

Ok, thanks.

As I understand it right, #3 sounds worse than #1 and #2 which mean more or less the same and sound more or less equally fine.

Did I get it right?

No, all are fine.

3 and 1 are essentially the same thing. 1 may sound a bit more colloquial.

A parent or teacher may say "so-and-so is a poor student." I don't see a thirteen year old saying, "I'm such a poor student!" I'd say that person saying, "I'm doing bad in school." (or "school sux"...but that's another story ;))

#1 Sounds best.

#2 Is possible but doesn't flow as well as #1 because the meaning is very slightly different

#3 Means the same as #1 but isn't convincing English.

О Господи... Они теперь предлагают son struggling in school... http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/madhouse/hang1.gif

It sounds worse, does it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

О Господи... Они теперь предлагают son struggling in school... http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/madhouse/hang1.gif

It sounds worse, does it?

---

That sounds OK. I still prefer the 1st options because "a son struggling in school" is only idiomatic in American English, BrE would be "a son [who's] struggling at school" , wheras the original sentence contained no such conflict.

Got it, thanks.

Son struggling in school sounds fine.

But me stoopid ameriken.

:)

I didn't say it was stupid, I just pointed out that it's not neutral.

I know! I'm just joking...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

I know! I'm just joking...

---

Fair enough, I was just clarifying!

This sub-forum has often been subjected to trans-Atlantic spats over the various differences between all the different flavo[u]rs of English, and I've been involved in most of them. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't starting off a new one by accident.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scotcher

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

I know! I'm just joking...

---

Fair enough, I was just clarifying!

This sub-forum has often been subjected to trans-Atlantic spats over the various differences between all the different flavo[u]rs of English, and I've been involved in most of them. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't starting off a new one by accident.

---

Haha. That's precisely why I started instigating another. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by scotcher

"a son struggling in school" is only idiomatic in American English, BrE would be "a son [who's] struggling at school" , wheras the original sentence contained no such conflict.

---

There's a question that worries me :)

If in AmE it's struggling in school, and in BrE it's struggling at school, why doing badly at school is ok for the both, AmE and BrE?


And I have another small question:
How would you read the words written as "chatl" and "chatle"? Is it чэтл for the both, or the second one is чэйтл?
Thanks!

I've found these translations among others in multitran:

двоечник (slang):
- labrake
- a D student

how about these?

D/C-student is ok, but it doesn't fit in "Kin Dza Dza", as for "labrake", online dictionaries don't know this word, not merriam-webster nor others.

Just to clarify: I am no longer looking for the best translation of that sentence, I've asked my previous question just of curiositiy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

If in AmE it's struggling in school, and in BrE it's struggling at school, why doing badly at school is ok for the both, AmE and BrE?

---

No idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

And I have another small question:
How would you read the words written as "chatl" and "chatle"? Is it чэтл for the both, or the second one is чэйтл?
Thanks!

---

I would read them both as чатл, but that's because I don't have the American accent necessary to justify the odd convention of transliterating English a into Russian э. If you are asking whether the final e would modify the sound of the a then the answer is no.

Do they both sound like "chattel", or not?..

Probably.

They could also conceivably be pronounced "shattel".

You can say (in AmE) "doing badly in school." I think that sounds better, anyway. I suspect "at school" is the proper phrasing.


By the way, what is chatl? And scotcher is right about the a. I would say it as the same AmE 'a' in cat. And, yes, I would say it as the word chattel.

Scotcher - out of curiosity, do you say can (the verb) and can (the noun) the same way? I realized I do not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

By the way, what is chatl?

---

A monetary unit on some planet :)
I prefer the spelling chatle. It seems more consistent with English language to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Оля

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

By the way, what is chatl?

---

A monetary unit on some planet :)
I prefer the spelling chatle. It seems more consistent with English language to me.

---

That's fine....Haha. But chattel is a real word...

P.S. А какие другие планеты вы навестили? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

Scotcher - out of curiosity, do you say can (the verb) and can (the noun) the same way? I realized I do not.

---

Yeah I do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZelyeUrsuli

But chattel is a real word...

---

Yes, I know... And that's no good in this case, I think... But it's чатл in Russian, so...

Quote:

---

P.S. А какие другие планеты вы навестили? ;)

---

Плюк, Хануд и Альфу. :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_dza_dza