The other article

It seems like there is something that Russians never get tought, but ought too. this article, mostly deals with food, or items such as cereal, or gum, where you can't really divide it up into one's and two's, but piles of stuff. I'm talking about "some". I wil provide a few examples. where "an/a" kinda sound "funny", and it is better to use "some".

well, i first thought of this, when one of my russian friends, who speaks really good english said "Can i have a gum" and i luaghed... becuase i had never heard that before. It sounds much better to say "Can i have some gum" or "a piece of gum".

another example

Can i have some soda?
can i have some cerial
do you have some gas? my car is almost out!
do you have some water?

Like i said, this is mostly used with, food, or liquids, where you can't really ask for specific amounts, just "some" of something. usually, it can be interchanged with "any", and it just depends which one you want to use.

Do you have any water?
do you have any cerial?

but, to me, "any" sounds a little desperate.

And make sure never to say "Can I have any..."

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

It sounds much better to say "Can i have some gum"

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If you're teaching, then teach properly. The proper question here is "May I have some gun". The original question may be answered with "you can but you may not", and I'm sure your parents have done that to you a few times, so remember it :-)

"May I have some gum" can also be answered with "Yes, but not from me/ some of mine". By an irritating snotty smarty-pants. You can't ask anything that couldn't be interpreted in another way than intended.

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If you're teaching, then teach properly. The proper question here is "May I have some gun". The original question may be answered with "you can but you may not", and I'm sure your parents have done that to you a few times, so remember it

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Sheer anachronistic pendantry. Can I make that clear?

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Originally Posted by Jasper May

"May I have some gum" can also be answered with "Yes, but not from me/ some of mine". By an irritating snotty smarty-pants. You can't ask anything that couldn't be interpreted in another way than intended.

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It misses the point. The point is that the "may" phrase is considered more polite and thus more suitable when you ask. The alleged Russians who find "some/any" difficult would do better by learning the polite form first. Politeness does not hurt.

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It misses the point. The point is that the "may" phrase is considered more polite and thus more suitable when you ask. The alleged Russians who find "some/any" difficult would do better by learning the polite form first. Politeness does not hurt.

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Learners of spoken English would do best to learn the English that English speakers speak. The notion that 'may' is more 'polite' than 'can' is totally outdated, at least in the opinion of this native speaker.

Not true...I still say "May I" when I talk to teachers, strangers, parents' friends, and such. I am 21 years old, and am sometimes still corrected when I forget. It is good to learn both, so you can sound polite when you need to, and more normal when speaking to friends.

Went to a pharmacy today. Girl behind the counter - perfectly polite - said 'Can I help you?'

It comes naturally. 'May' seems forced, almost frosty.

I split infinitives too :).

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Originally Posted by joysof

Went to a pharmacy today. Girl behind the counter - perfectly polite - said 'Can I help you?'

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That is a totally different case. Even the meaning is different. She asked whether there was anything you needed her help in, and whether she was able to provide it. She did not ask your permission to help you. In this case saying "may" would have been a mistake.

As already said by others, some people may mind your indiscriminate usage of "can".

Nobody says "May i" anything, unless they are the encredibly strict 70 year old hunchback, who got made fun of relentlessly when they were a kid, and now they just go around taking it out on other people.
last year i asked a substitute teacher "Can i go to the bathroom?" she said "yes you can, but may you?" and she wouldn't let me go untill i said "may i". i said screw that, it's not worth sounding like a dork just to leave the class.

Truth is, times change, and languages change with time. in the 50's maybe May and Can were had a pretty distinct and clear usage. But nowadays, most people just don't say "may". it sounds, snobby, and tight. just like, no one adresses their parents friends as "mr. and mrs." and no one calls theirs dad "Sir" anymore. Maybe in the 50, 60's 70's. but not now.

besides, look at your name "bad manners". can i really trust someone who's name is bad manners, with propper speaking ? i know, i know, Я собачный мальчик, but, if you're going to correct me, make sure you are living in the 21st century.

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Nobody says "May i" anything, unless they are the encredibly strict 70 year old hunchback, who got made fun of relentlessly when they were a kid, and now they just go around taking it out on other people.
last year i asked a substitute teacher "Can i go to the bathroom?" she said "yes you can, but may you?" and she wouldn't let me go untill i said "may i". i said screw that, it's not worth sounding like a dork just to leave the class.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Ah, that's my old Doggieboy, never willing to take a step back on good old fashioned American principles. So did you figure it was better to look like a dork squirming around in your seat? :wink:

I'm not a 70 year old hunchback who was teased repeatedly as a child but I say "May I" occasionally. I hear adults and polite adolescents say this fairly often. It depends on who you're speaking to. I never say "May I" in my house or with my friends, but if I'm trying to be polite, then I say "May I." There's no harm in learning that. And there's no harm in being polite or calling an adult you don't know as "Mr." or "Ms." It will generally make people think better of you, and that never hurts. Of course, as Mike once said, in real life you should always be polite as you can, but all politeness rules go out the window when you're on the Internet :lol:

Now what I do hate is "You can, but may you?" :lol: :lol:

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Originally Posted by bad manners

It misses the point. The point is that the "may" phrase is considered more polite and thus more suitable when you ask. The alleged Russians who find "some/any" difficult would do better by learning the polite form first. Politeness does not hurt.

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And this is said by the same bad manners who insists on using "роботиха" because it is 'the language used'? :lol:

Well, I can say I hear 'Can I have...' (by a buyer in a shop, for example) much more often than 'May I have...' :) - and not only from teenagers.

But right here I agree with you: It's better to speak correctly than to speak 'as majority of people do'. Especially when one just starts studying and doesn't feel the difference well.

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Originally Posted by Pravit

So did you figure it was better to look like a dork squirming around in your seat?

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you think i actually had to go to the bathroom? no way man. just trying to take up an opportunity to wander around в школьном коридоре.

"May I" is quite accepted British English. Maybe it sounds dorky in American, but it's just polite in English.

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Originally Posted by Zeus

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Originally Posted by bad manners

It misses the point. The point is that the "may" phrase is considered more polite and thus more suitable when you ask. The alleged Russians who find "some/any" difficult would do better by learning the polite form first. Politeness does not hurt.

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And this is said by the same bad manners who insists on using "роботиха" because it is 'the language used'? :lol:

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I'm not denying that "can I..." is being widely used as a substitute to "may I..." However, "can I..." appeared in a thread that was supposed to teach some English, and that was the whole of my objection. "роботиха" (even though I prefer "роботша":-)) was given after it was told that "робот" is strictly masculine and whatever deviation from that is a deviation, and then I merrily went on discussing marginal deviations.

Likewise, I can easily say that "may I..." is the form to be used when requesting a permission, and then say that perhaps you could use "can I..." just as well, but that requires per-case judgment and experience.

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Especially when one just starts studying and doesn't feel the difference well.

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Precisely.

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

besides, look at your name "bad manners". can i really trust someone who's name is bad manners, with propper speaking ?

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Then trust somebody whose name is Zeus. What he/she says must be divine truth.

BTW, have a look at the correct spelling of the genitive/possessive case of English "who", while we're at that.

As much as it pains me :wink: I'm gonna have to go with Dogboy on this one. At least in my region, saying "may I" makes you sound like a snot.

I'm sure it's perfectly polite other places, but if you're in northern Wisconsin, stick with "can I" :)

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Nobody says "May i" anything, unless they are the encredibly strict 70 year old hunchback, who got made fun of relentlessly when they were a kid, and now they just go around taking it out on other people.

i know, i know, Я собачный мальчик, but, if you're going to correct me, make sure you are living in the 21st century.

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Thanks...but I'm not a hunchback or old. In fact, I'm not that much older than you. But, I still like to be polite, and can sound perfectly natural saying something as simple as "may I." Not that "can I" is necessarily impolite, maybe it's just where you come from.

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But, I still like to be polite, and can sound perfectly natural saying something as simple as "may I." Not that "can I" is necessarily impolite, maybe it's just where you come from.

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Exactly - it's about where you come from. So why correct either version?

"May I...?" is correct and polite, "Can I...?" is wrong, impolite, and ignorant.

If you choose to murder your native tongue that's up to you, but don't try and justify it with all that "everyone round these 'ere parts speak that way so it must be the rightest way" BS.

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If you choose to murder your native tongue that's up to you, but don't try and justify it with all that "everyone round these 'ere parts speak that way so it must be the rightest way" BS.

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Language, and its usage, is constantly changing. We don't say 'forsooth' any more, nor do we substitute 'f' for 's'. Stubborn, rigid adherence to some 1950s school primer does not constitute 'proper' English. Read your Joyce and then try telling me to stick to the rules.

This is completely different though, it's nothing to do with resisting the devopment of a living language or "rigid adherence to some 1950s school primer" , it's to do with ignorant, stupid, and lazy people trying to justify their lazy and ignorant (ab)use and dumbing-down of a varied and rich language for their own convenience, and then having the brass to teach this as "correct" to people who are seeking to learn.

Come come. I'd say "May I" as well, but only because I grew at in a half-British family. I notice that the only people who think 'may I' is snotty or dorky are Americans. Therefore:
In British: May I=polite, Can I=less polite but quite acceptable
In American: May I=dorky, Can I=normal

End of discussion.

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End of discussion.

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No chance.

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This is completely different though, it's nothing to do with resisting the devopment of a living language or "rigid adherence to some 1950s school primer" , it's to do with ignorant, stupid, and lazy people trying to justify their lazy and ignorant (ab)use and dumbing-down of a varied and rich language for their own convenience, and then having the brass to teach this as "correct" to people who are seeking to learn.

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I would be the first to jump on bad grammar. This, however, is a matter of style. Teach 'may' if you must, but, in modern British English, 'can' is entirely acceptable. ''Varied and rich'', remember?

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No chance.

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Why not? If you criticise an Americanism/Briticism you could just as well criticise the whole language. Which is beyond the scope of this forum, I think.

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Why not? If you criticise an Americanism/Briticism you could just as well criticise the whole language. Which is beyond the scope of this forum, I think.

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At no point did I 'criticise' anything but pedantry. Even if I had, I would have thought that healthy debate amongst native speakers would be nothing if not instructive for our Russian friends :) .