Why are commas put in such a way?Quote:
Does anyone know what it was about; who did it, and why?
In general, what are main differences between English and Russian punctuation?
Answer in Russian if possible, please.
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Why are commas put in such a way?Quote:
Does anyone know what it was about; who did it, and why?
In general, what are main differences between English and Russian punctuation?
Answer in Russian if possible, please.
Marcus,
I don't know Russian so I'll let someone like Croc or Robin answer your question; however, I do have a graphic that might help you out about the importance of serial comas:
http://i.imgur.com/5MniD.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5MniD.jpg
Yummy! =:^)
A good text will provide you with extensive technical descriptions of similarities and differences which are way beyond the scope of forum help.
Your example: "Does anyone know what it was about; who did it, and why?" The semi-colon shows a big shift or contrast, from "what" to "who." The comma shows a lesser shift, moving the focus from "who" to "why" (that person's motives.) There may be "rules" but a sense of rhythm and contrast are what's important.
In Russian there is only one correct variant of this sentence: Кто-нибудь знает, о чём это (буквально), кто это сделал и зачем?
"о чём это" is probably wrong о чём идёт речь или что случилось.
May be "rules"?! Is English punctuation studied at school? When we had written works in Russian we got marks for both spelling and punctuation. One spelling mistake was usually accounted as two punctuation. We studied punctuation rules during all the school process. At the fifth grade we had a half a year general course of Russian syntax and punctuation, we learnt syntax (and rules of punctuation, of course) of simple sentence at the eighth grade and syntax of complex sentence at the ninth grade.Quote:
There may be "rules" but a sense of rhythm and contrast are what's important.
Primarily English has rules about where not to put a comma. Many people will put a comma before "and" in an enumeration, but it is not mandatory. It is, however, mandatory to use one in an enumeration where there is no "and" or "or", as in the list on the magazine front page; the woman in question finds inspiration in a) cooking, b) her family and c) her dog, not in cooking (her family and her dog), which is very much a one-time inspiration.
English allows for some user discretion. While the original is correct you can also write:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Does anyone know what it was about; who did it and why?
Does anyone know what it was about, who did it, and why? (a bit awkward)
Does anyone know what it was about, who did it and why?
A strict grammarian could probably find fault with some of that but they read fine to me.
I've heard German punctuation is similar to Russian. Is it true?
I don't understand how commas are used in Russian.
It seems to be a formal / spelling related matter, rather than splitting up the sentence to make it easier to read and more logical (that's the purpose of commas in English).
I can't say for sure about German, but I think the rules are more similar to English than to Russian.
But like I said earlier, for me, this is not a priority in my Russian studies at the moment.
Actually, I thought you should ideally NOT put a comma before "and".... Isn't that the rule?Quote:
Originally Posted by bitpicker
In Swedish it is, anyway.
It is in Russian. Or so I was taught at school. I don't think it is in English, and I like it. Now I often indulge myself putting this comma in when I write in English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
What is "spelling related"? Russian punctuation is strictly connected to syntax. For example, if a spread atribute is placed before the noun it is referred, it is not separated by a comma, but in the opposite case it is.Quote:
It seems to be a formal / spelling related matter, rather than splitting up the sentence to make it easier to read and more logical (that's the purpose of commas in English).
Живущие здесь люди очень дружелюбны. Люди, живущие здесь, очень дружелюбны.
Punctuation can tell you a lot about the structure of a sentence. It is sometimes necessary because of free word order.
Yes, insofar as there are specific rules about where to put a comma. But the rules are not the same. :) The most obvious difference to me, as far as punctuation in general is concerned, is the totally different usage of the hyphen. You cannot use it as a direct speech makrer in German, and it is no stand-in for a missing form of "to be".Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Естественно, не могут они быть одинаковыми. Но общий принцип строгости пунктуации в немецком сохраняется, а не, как в английском, кто, как хочет, так и пишет.Quote:
But the rules are not the same.
Естественно, не могут они быть одинаковыми. Но общий принцип строгости пунктуации в немецком сохраняется, а не, как в английском, кто, как хочет, так и пишет.Quote:
But the rules are not the same.
This is what I would use:
what it was about, who did it, and why?
Yes, when you have a list A, B, and C you need all commas. See Strunk & White.
These sources are in English; however, it might be of help to everyone as they cover many rules and have examples of both correct an incorrect usage. It is from Purdue University:
Commas: Quick Rules
Extended Rules for Commas
Commas After Introductions
Commas vs. Semicolons
Commas with Nonessential Elements
Thank you, rockzmom. These rules seem vague to me sometimes.
The baby wearing a yellow jumpsuit is my niece.
Professor Benson, grinning from ear to ear, announced that the exam would be tomorrow.
The only difference I see is that the participle in the first sentence is an atribute while that in the second is a modifier.
.
Это сделало меня хихикать. Это правда! Наши школы не так строго, я думаю .. =) Если я правильно понимаю, 'давным-давно' когда-то были объективные правила о пунктуации в английском языке. Но много вещи изменил эти правила в течение времени. Произведения искусства и литературы смел нарушать правила. И осколки разбитых правила стали новые правила.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
В качестве примера: "Run-on" предложение на английском языке грамматические ошибки. Но это не имеет объективного определения. Как многие понятия делится на слово "и" должно быть разрешено? Что собственно? Один человек "run-on" Приговор может быть совершенно правильные грамматики другого человека. Хотя человек может найти правила для использования с запятой, в реальном мире он найдет, что авторы используют их почти всякий раз, когда они хотят. (Что касается меня, я большой поклонник запятой; в большинстве случаев, что кто-то хочет больше остановки, чем запятая, но меньше, чем период, точка с запятой работает хорошо.) Большая часть Дать Толкиена использует очень длинные предложения, многие разногласия между многими понятиями . Современные "грамматникс*", вероятно, хотели назвать некоторые из его работ "run-on". И это только маленький пример.
* As far as I know, the word "grammatniks" is entirely invented by me. =)
NB: My Russian is probably terrible, and I'm sorry. Some of the things I wanted to talk about are above my skills with Russian. Will do better next time ><
PPS - response to Chaika
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaika
Chaika, the difference I see between: "1. What was it about; who did it, and why?" and "2. What was it about, who did it, and why?" is like this (at least in my mind):class A:
a = what.was.it.about;
b = who.did.it;
c = why;
class B("what was it about"):
a = who.did.it;
c = why;
The semi-colon (imVho) seems to denote that the concepts following it would be a part of the aforementioned, similar to the grocery-list ";" writing seen by Tolkien and similar. (Maybe it's relegated to the period of time in which he wrote, but he's the best example of this sort of writing I can conjure offhand).
Ваш русский вполне можно понять. Если трудно по-русски, можно и по-английски.
Rules of punctuation are, in general, more rigorously applied in Russian
than in English. Differences of usage between the two languages relate in
particular to the comma (especially in separating principal from subordinate
clauses), the dash and the punctuation of direct speech.
21 The full stop, exclamation mark and question mark
Usage of the full stop, exclamation mark and question mark is comparable
in the two languages:
ЛOди Iщут счстья в любвI. People seek happiness in love.
Какя прекрсная погBда! What magnificent weather!
Куд вы идёте? Where are you going?
20 Introduction 19–21
Note
(a) There is a tendency to use exclamation marks more frequently in
Russian than in English.
(b) An exclamation mark may appear in the middle of a sentence:
Так мне бNло плBхо, так г?рько и постCло! — хMже вс@кой
болJзни (Rasputin) ‘I felt so bad, so bitter and wretched! — it
was worse than any illness’.
(c) Exclamation marks are also used in commands expressed other
than by a grammatical imperative: Молч9ть! ‘Shut up!’, За мной!
‘Follow me!’, Вст9ли! ‘On your feet!’.
(d) An exclamation mark enclosed in parentheses (!) may be used to
indicate irony or indignation.
(e) Exclamation and question marks may appear together for special
emphasis: Да что же Gто так?е?! ‘Now what’s all this?!’.
22 The comma: introductory comments
The comma is more frequently used in Russian than in English. In extreme
examples a series of commas in a Russian sentence may have no English
equivalents at all:
Макренко пIшет, что дJти, котBрые умJют трудIться, уважют
труд другIх людJй, стрем@тся прийтI на пBмощь тем, кто в Kтой
пBмощи нуждется (Belyakova)
Makarenko writes that children who know how to work respect the
labour of other people and strive to come to the assistance of those
who need it
23 Uses of the comma
Correspondence with English usage
Commas are used, in Russian and English, to perform the following
functions:
(1) To separate
(i) two or more adjectives which define one noun:
Он шёл по тёмной, гр@зной, ш=мной Mлице
He was walking down the dark, dirty, noisy street
(ii) two or more adverbs qualifying one verb:
21–23 Punctuation 21
М>дленно, муч<тельно он встал с постJли
Slowly, painfully he rose from the bed
(2) To separate items in a list:
Плта за кварт<ру, электр<чество, газ составл@ет bколо 20 рублJй
(Belyakova)
The rent, electricity and gas bills amount to about 20 roubles
(3) To mark off words and phrases which stand in apposition:
Валент<на Терешк?ва, раб?чая девч?нка из старIнного
текстIльного городк, стла пJрвой жJнщиной-космонвтом
Valentina Tereshkova, a working girl from an ancient textile town, became
the first woman in space
(4) To mark off words which serve to define and specify:
Здние дJтского сда двухэтжное, с больш<ми св>тлыми ?кнами,
с вер9ндами для дневн?го сна (Belyakova)
The building of the kindergarten is two-storey, with large light windows
and verandas for a daytime nap
(5) After да ‘yes’ and нет ‘no’:
Да, я соглсен с вми/Нет, я не соглсен
Yes, I agree with you/No, I don’t agree
(6) In addressing people:
Здр9вствуйте, Ивн Ивнович!
Hallo, Ivan Ivanovich!
(7) After interjections:
— Ой, как неудчно. Вчер упл oли сегBдня? (Rasputin)
‘Oh, what bad luck. Did you fall over yesterday or today?’
(8) Between repeated words:
Ничег?, ничег?, утешл он себ@, смое трMдное позадI (Abramov)
Never mind, never mind, he consoled himself, the worst is over
(9) To mark off participial phrases:
По равнIне, освещённой п?здним с?лнцем, скакл табMн дIких
лошадJй
Over the plain, (which was) illuminated by the late sun, galloped a herd
of wild horses
22 Introduction 23
(10) To mark off gerundial phrases:
Я молчл, не зн9я, что дJлать (Rasputin)
I was silent, not knowing what to do
Note
In English, ‘and’ is often used as an alternative to a comma before the
final element in enumerations and when two or more adjectives qualify
a single noun or two adverbs a single verb (cf. (1) and (2) above).
Differences in usage between Russian and English
Russian requires the use of a comma in the following contexts, where usage
in English is optional or inconsistent:
(1) Between clauses linked by co-ordinating conjunctions (see 454 (2)
(i) and 455–457):
Tля знет бMквы, но я пок помогю ей читть (Belyakova)
Olya knows the letters, but for the time being I help her to read
Note
(a) While a comma always appears before но (except when it is the
first word in a sentence), the insertion of a comma before English
‘but’ depends largely on the length of the pause required by the
context, cf. ‘He is young but experienced’ and ‘He is young, but
everyone trusts him’.
(b) A comma is used between clauses linked by и if the clauses have
different subjects (Но волк был мёртв, и егB сейчс никтB не
бо@лся (Abramov) ‘But the wolf was dead, and no one was afraid
of him any more’), but not if they have the same subject (РазожглI
костёр и сварIли грибнBй суп (Belyakova) ‘They lit a fire and
made mushroom soup’). In such contexts и may be replaced by a
comma: Два дня он не пил, не ел (= не пил и не ел) (Abramov)
‘For two days he did not drink or eat’.
(2) Between clauses linked by the conjunctions и . . . и ‘both . . . and’, ни
. . . ни ‘neither . . . nor’, Oли . . . Oли ‘either . . . or’, то . . . то ‘now . . . now’:
На вJчере выступли и мльчики, и дJвочки
Both boys and girls performed at the party
Нельз@ ни спокBйно почитть, ни сосредотBчиться (Belyakova)
You can neither do a little quiet reading, nor concentrate
[то Oли собка, Oли волк
That is either a dog or a wolf
23 Punctuation 23
Он то смеётся, то плчет
Now she laughs, now she weeps
(3) Between a principal and a subordinate clause (see 458–467):
Я зню, что конJц бMдет не скBро
I know the end is still some way off
Мы не отдавли детJй в @сли, хот@ такя возмBжность был
(Belyakova)
We didn’t put the children into a day-nursery, even though we had the
opportunity to do so
ДенIс стал с нетерпJнием ждать лJта, чтBбы поJхать с ббушкой
к Чёрному мBрю
Denis waited impatiently for the summer, in order to go with his
grandmother to the Black Sea
Он рабBтал бы, >сли бы мог
He would work if he could
Он ухBдит, потом= что он опздывает
She is leaving because she is late
Note
The appearance of a comma between потом= and что in Мы победIм
потомM, что мы сильнJе throws the element of cause into sharper
relief: ‘We shall win because we are stronger’ (i.e. and for no other reason).
This effect can be intensified by distancing потомM from что (Потом=
мы победIм, что мы сильнJе), or by the addition of лишь, т?лько or
other intensifying words before потом=.
(4) To separate main from relative clauses (see 123):
Я посещл гBрод, в кот?ром (где) провёл дJтство
I was visiting the town in which (where) I had spent my childhood
Note
English distinguishes relative clauses (which are marked off by commas)
— ‘Cats (i.e. all cats), who have excellent night vision, are nocturnal
predators’ — from adjective clauses (which are not marked off by commas):
‘Cats (i.e. only those cats) who have no tails are called Manx cats’. In
Russian, however, both types of clause are marked off with commas.
(5) To mark off parenthetical words:
во-пJрвых/во-вторNх in the first place/in the second place
допMстим let us assume напримJр for example
24 Introduction 23
кжется it seems пожлуйста please
конJчно of course по-мBему in my opinion
к сожалJнию unfortunately скжем let us say
мaжду прBчим incidentally с однBй, другBй on the one, the
мBжет быть perhaps сторонN other hand
навJрное probably
Он, должн? быть, ушёл
He must have left
Нам, кон>чно, удBбнее, что дJти сид@т тIхо (Belyakova)
Of course, it’s more convenient for us if the children are sitting
quietly
Не спорь, пож9луйста, со мной, я зню (Rasputin)
Please don’t argue with me, I know best
Он сказл, что, к сожал>нию, нам придётся идтI без негB
He said that unfortunately we would have to go without him
(6) In comparisons:
Он лзит по дерJвьям, как обезь@на
He scrambles about in the trees like a monkey
КтB-то научIл своегB малыш плвать р9ньше, чем тот стал
ходIть (Belyakova)
Someone taught his baby to swim before he could walk
Он спал беспробMдным сном, б=дто егB ничтB не тревBжило
He was sound asleep, as though without a care in the world
24 The colon. The semicolon. The dash
The colon.
The colon is used to perform the following functions:
(1) To introduce a list, in which case the colon is usually preceded by a
generic term:
Мо@ семь@ состоIт из четырёх человJк: мой муж В<ктор, дв?е
дет>й и я (Belyakova)
My family consists of four people: my husband Victor, the two children
and myself
23–24 Punctuation 25
(2) To introduce a statement which elaborates on, supplements or
indicates the cause of the statement which precedes the colon:
И тут их ожидла нBвая бед: от>ц проп9л (Abramov)
And now a new misfortune awaited them: father had disappeared
В наMке всегд должн быть тBчность: к9ждому на=чному т>рмину
должн? соотв>тствовать одн? пон@тие (Vvedenskaya)
There should always be accuracy in science: a single concept should
correspond to each scientific term
\тром я со стрхом смотрJл на себ@ в зJркало: нос вспух, под
л>вым гл9зом син@к (Rasputin)
In the morning I gazed at myself in the mirror in horror: my nose had
swollen up, there was a bruise under my left eye
(3) To introduce direct speech, thought or other communication:
В кинофIльме «Доживём до понедльника» подрBсток пIшет:
«Сч9стье — Gто когд9 теб@ поним9ют!» (Kovaleva)
In the film We’ll survive till Monday a teenager writes, ‘Happiness is
when people understand you!’
(4) To introduce a quotation:
ПBмните, в «Евгнии Онгине»:
ПривNчка свNше нам дан:
ЗамJна счстию он
Do you remember, in Evgenii Onegin:
Habit is granted us from on high:
It is a substitute for happiness
The semicolon
The semicolon is used to separate extensive clauses which are not
linked by conjunctions, especially if each clause is itself broken up by
commas:
В Ленингрде все хот@т посмотрJть на легендрную «АврBру»,
побывть в пMшкинских местх, в многочIсленных дворцх;
в Уль@новске познакBмиться с местми, где жил и учIлся
В. И. ЛJнин; в Нбережных Челнх проJхать по огрBмному
молодBму гBроду, посмотрJть Кам^З (Vvedenskaya)
In Leningrad everyone wants to see the legendary ‘Aurora’, visit
places associated with Pushkin, the numerous palaces; in Ulyanovsk
to get to know the places where V. I. Lenin lived and worked; and in
26 Introduction 24
Naberezhnye Chelny to drive through the enormous new town, see
the Kamaz truck factory
Note
In 1991 Ленингрд ‘Leningrad’ reverted to Санкт-ПетербMрг
‘St Petersburg’ and Уль@новск ‘Ulyanovsk’ to СимбIрск ‘Simbirsk’.
The dash
The dash is extremely widespread in Russian. It not only has a number
of specific uses of its own but in some contexts substitutes for other
punctuation marks, in particular the comma, the colon and parentheses.
(1) Specific uses of the dash.
(i) It separates subject noun from predicate noun, replacing the verb
‘to be’:
Мой отJц — преподавтель вMза, а мма — врач (Belyakova)
My father is a college lecturer, and my mother is a doctor
Смое глубBкое Bзеро мIра — Kто пресновBдный красвец
Байкл (Vvedenskaya)
The deepest lake in the world is the beautiful fresh-water Lake Baikal
Note
(a) The subject may sometimes be an infinitive:
Смое тяжёлое при прощнии — не огл@дываться (Ogonek)
The hardest thing on parting is not to look back
(b) The dash is not normally used to replace the verb ‘to be’ when the
subject is a pronoun: Он водолз ‘He is a diver’.
(ii) In elliptical statements it replaces a word, usually a verb, which is
‘understood’:
СтудJнт смотрJл на профJссора, профJссор — на студJнта
(Shukshin)
The student was looking at the professor, and the professor (was
looking) at the student
(2) The dash is also used as a substitute for:
(i) The comma (when, for example, introducing an unexpected turn of events
or sharp contrast):
24 Punctuation 27
Он сдJлала ещё попNтку посадIть мен@ за стол — напр9сно
(=, но напр9сно) (Rasputin)
She made another attempt to seat me at the table, but in vain
Note
Generally speaking, the dash indicates a more pronounced pause than
the comma, for example, in expressing apposition: Со мной был
грузIнский чай — моё едIнственное удовBльствие (=, моё
едIнственное удовBльствие) ‘I had with me some Georgian tea, my
only pleasure’.
(ii) The colon:
(a) in introducing an enumeration, following a generic term:
Иногд клуб приглашет гостJй — учёных, педаг?гов, врач>й
(Belyakova)
Sometimes the club invites guests — scientists, teachers and doctors
(b) in elucidating a statement:
В Таджикистне гражднская войн — бегMт в РоссIю
таджIки. (Solzhenitsyn)
There is a civil war in Tadzhikistan, (and so) Tadzhiks flee into Russia.
(iii) Parentheses:
На территBрии РоссIйской Федерции — не забыв9йте о том,
что он9 заним9ет одн= седьм=ю часть всей с=ши Земл<! —
тNсячи рек и речMшек
On the territory of the Russian Federation (do not forget that it
occupies one-seventh of the Earth’s surface!) there are thousands of
rivers and streams
25 The punctuation of direct speech
(1) If the introductory verb precedes the direct speech, the verb is
followed by a colon, and the direct speech either
(i) appears on a new line, preceded by a dash:
Я пром@млил:
— Пр9вда (Rasputin)
‘It is true’, I mumbled
(ii) or runs on after the colon and is enclosed in guillemets (« »):
28 Introduction 24–25
Сам хоз@ин рза два кричл с крыльц «Эй, кто там?»
The master himself shouted a couple of times from the porch,
‘Hey, who’s there?’
(2) If, however, the verb follows the direct speech, the latter is flanked by
dashes:
— Усн=л, — услMжливо отвJтила СIма (Rasputin)
‘He’s fallen asleep’, answered Sima obligingly
(3) A conversation may be rendered as follows:
— Я зню, почемM ты все ещё живёшь со мнBй. Сказть?
— Ну, почемM?
— Да прBсто лень тебJ купIть раскладMшку. (S. Dovlatov)
‘I know why you still live with me. Shall I tell you?
‘Well, why?
‘You’re just too lazy to buy a camp bed.’
Note
(a) A full stop, comma, semicolon or dash follow inverted commas.
(b) Quotes within quotes may be distinguished as follows:
«КрJйсер “АврBра” сто@л на @коре» ‘The cruiser “Aurora”
lay at anchor’.
(c) In cursive script, inverted commas are rendered as follows: «Привт!»
‘Greetings!’
26 Suspension points (vyjujnóxbt)
Suspension points (. . .) indicate one of the following.
(1) Hesitation:
— ПроIгрываешь, навJрное?
— Нет, вы . . . вы<грываю (Rasputin)
‘I suppose you lose?’
‘No, I – I win’
(2) An unfinished statement:
Знать бы нам, чем Kто всё кBнчится . . . (Rasputin)
Had we but known how it would all end . . .
25–26 Punctuation 29