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End of a drinking culture? Russia accepts that beer is alcoholic - Health News, Health & Families - The Independent
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End of a drinking culture? Russia accepts that beer is alcoholic - Health News, Health & Families - The Independent
Quote:
Originally Posted by sperk
Isn't it a good thing?Quote:
Over the past decade, vodka consumption has dropped by around a third, while beer consumption has rocketed by more than 40 per cent.
I think Russia should take more drastic action than that to stop their alcohol problems.
Admittedly I haven't been in Russia since...... an eternity.... but the stereotype about Russians and boozing is so strong that it has to be true.
I'd personally give Putin (actually, I'd prefer Medvedev) a tour of "Systembolaget (Sweden)", "Alko" (Finland) and whatever the Norwegian equivalent is called (forgotten). :grin:
It's a kind of rather old fashioned state owned alcohol outlet which is a monopoly and only sells at certain hours, to sober people over 20. They are trying to modernize a bit but in the countryside it's really backwards.
However, this system really works.
The only thing they can't stop is people making their own, or drinking ethanol. But no doubt that already happens in Russia.
It brings in a lot of money to the state too.
Incredibly frustrating for normal people who are not alcoholics to have to queue up to buy a bottle of wine for dinner....
But it probably reduces antisocial boozing with at least 2/3.
There is nothing more tragic than when a person boozes his life away and ruins the life of his/her family along the way.
By the way, is it true that Georgian wines are banned in Russia after the war in 2008?
This is indeed true. It is extremely hard to find Georgian wine in Russia nowadays. I looked for it on the menu at a Georgian restaurant in Moscow last summer and at one in Kazan this summer and didn't have any luck finding any. A friend of mine who taught English in Georgia last year told me that the ban is still quite in effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
You cannot buy alcohol in normal shops in Sweden?Quote:
It's a kind of rather old fashioned state owned alcohol outlet which is a monopoly and only sells at certain hours, to sober people over 20.
No, and it's the same in Finland and Norway (they noticed that the Swedish method reduced alcoholism).
It was very old fashioned earlier, and terrible queues on Fridays... but they have tried to modernise it a bit recently.
But most people do believe that it really helps to prevent alcohol abuse.
One of the slogans of the company is "We are the only company that is trying to sell less of our products"
The EU hates this because it's a state monopoly but both Sweden and Finland made a special exception when we entered the EU.
There really is quite a big alcohol problem in both countries and nobody wants it to get worse.
I think its days are numbered though. In this globalist society the big European alcohol vendors will want to get into this market... It's just a remnant of the past. I'd give it 10 years maximum. The streamlining of the European countries continues until we are all just clones of each other and of the US :-(
Logically, it's only alcohol addicts themselves who wouldn't like to "get it worse" because each normal person is pretty sure s/he won't consume loads of that stuff just because it becomes easier to buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
If you don't like being a clone of the US, feel free to be a clone of China (like Vietnam and North Korea), or some middle African states like Somalia or Sudan...
Just to add one point to the discussion, but could this be because of the cold in Russia, Sweden, etc? Of course we have maaaaaany problems with alcoholism in Brazil and South America, but I think (I'm not sure) that it's not such a huge problem like here in Russia and nothern countries. We don't hear the same about Italy (warmer country also), for example.
Do you guys think there's a connection with the cold? Or only with the mentality of the people?
Ok, there are about 100 studies all indicating that this system works, however silly it may seem. There are none indicating the opposite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Yes, most people are of this opinion because it's the cold countries that have the biggest problem with this.Quote:
Just to add one point to the discussion, but could this be because of the cold in Russia, Sweden, etc? Of course we have maaaaaany problems with alcoholism in Brazil and South America, but I think (I'm not sure) that it's not such a huge problem like here in Russia and nothern countries. We don't hear the same about Italy (warmer country also), for example.
Do you guys think there's a connection with the cold? Or only with the mentality of the people?
Also the DARK countries, it gets very dark in the winter in Scandinavia and in large parts of Russia.
I don't know though - personally I hit the chocolate in the dark winter nights, not the alcohol.
The worst problems with alcohol are among native people in the arctic area, particularly eskimos in Greenland. Also in Alaska, I've read, and as we know, in Russia..
Eskimos have different metabolism and get addicted faster, and get more sick from alcohol too. Also the people in Northern Scandinavia. It's only traditional Christianity and really strict control of the alcohol that's proven useful, and there is quite a big problem with alcoholism.
These people don't drink socially with dinner, or appreciate the taste. It's just the traditional spirit, or vodka that they drink.
It absolutely ruins their lives.
The French and Italians etc have a different culture and they drink wine, not stronger drinks.
I am willing to put up with a bit of inconvenience to save thousands of families and individuals. If the problems in Russia, Alaska, Greenland etc are as bad as I have read, then that's what we can excpect if we give up this system.
Banning advertising: No impact. I haven't seen a cigarette ad in a few years; I still smoke. I see liquor ads all the time and don't make my purchasing decisions based on what I see. (Bud Light with lime? Really? Are you serious?)
State liquor stores are about revenue. Period. A tax, a fee, a profit. Revenue. The State of New Hampshire has a huge store on every major road leading into it. Most cars are from out of state. Including Massachusetts Legislators than enacted laws to raise taxes (Kennedy jokes abound from Sunday road trips to NH). Tennessee has State liquor stores. Moonshine is popular there.
Social order or health? Nope, We know how well prohibition worked.
Just say no!
I seem to run across drunks on the subway here. I don't think it's ever been legal to drink on them.
I'm so confused about freedom sometimes.
So, some people in a free society (as pertains to alcohol - free to buy it, consume it, etc.) will drink themselves to death. This is conceded; Some other people in that same free setting will NOT drink themselves to death.
So is it Best (and is it Freedom?) to:
- allow all the people to drink, even those who choose to wipe themselves out with it?
- allow only some people to drink, and not those who've shown predilection toward self-immolation with it?
- slow down the process of buying alcohol, but not limit its availability, and empower the sellers of the alcohol with the right to make personal judgments on the tendency to alcoholism of each customer as they approach?
- Inform society that alcohol is ultimately a poisonous detriment and illegalize it entirely?
All of these have been tried in the past, but people still drink. I'm not confused about that - it's been suggested it's simply the 'death instinct' some humans carry - but I *AM* confused on what's best on a sociological scale, what lets people have the most personal liberty without turning our (collective) societies cold toward those in need.
I can't say I'd be bothered by having to wait in line for a bottle of red wine or what-have-you; it's not terribly different (as general cash-to-bottle delay time goes) from the system of magnet-tagging alcohol bottles that stores out here use - each tag requisite of manual removal at the cash register, and each removal taking a considerable amount of time (at least at my local store).... But I'm surprised the system you describe out in the nordic countries hasn't already been corrupted, played and cheated by those motivated to get a drink, who can't. I would have thought it would've become like the US food stamps system, (oft illegally) used like a form of currency to ultimately provide the most desired objects to the most desiring hands. The idea that this alcohol-queue system still stands and functions is more a testament to the honesty of the people in the nordic countries, than anything else, in my own fuddled opinion. (When I was 16, it was no hard task to stand outside of a convenience store for ten minutes, give a stranger a fiver and get him to buy your friends whatever alcohol you needed.. ah, the commonplace US corruption)
It doesn't seem likely things will become like they are in the US, at least in my experience... people here simply don't respect alcohol, for good things or bad things, nearly like people do in Europe. As the bad goes, people are very quickly willing to judge harshly against a drunk, here (cue the celebrity DUI photo reel); and as the good goes, to have a personal moratorium on alcohol almost makes one seem an oddity, here. So on either side of the coin, we don't have much respect for alcohol.. European nations as a whole would have to do a lot of social FORGETTING to get to where we are with, methinks.
Спасибо за интересную тему для обсуждения, друзья мои. :grin:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ine_poster.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
:grin:
This makes me laugh because it looks to be one of those very old Soviet propaganda posters, but in all reality it's from a 2006 copy of Komsomol'skaya Pravda
You are a well grown up person while the teenagers are easily affected by advertising. These days teenagers or people under 25 are really the beer addicts in Russia. The typical view of a Russian drunk man is changed from a grown up full of vodka for the USSR time to a teenager or under 25 full of beer for these days. This is why the beer commercials are considered as dangerous for making teenagers minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by capecoddah
+500Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeCup
It does seem silly that beer would need a commercial.. it's like steak. Everybody knows what it is, go get one if you want it, or don't. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by CoffeeCup
I would really like that Latvia becomes clone of the Scandinavia. :)Quote:
The streamlining of the European countries continues until we are all just clones of each other and of the US
That's why there were so much drunk Finnish tourists during "fat years" in Latvia. :DQuote:
There really is quite a big alcohol problem in both countries and nobody wants it to get worse
Yes, well that was before you were in the EU, right? So it's tax free on the ferry.
Even since the EU, alcohol is MUCH cheaper in the Baltics, mostly because of lower alcohol tax maybe other reasons, I am not sure. The Finnish people can't help themselves, it's just too easy - cheap and available everywhere.
I am going on the Riga to Stockholm ferry in a couple of days. Oh my word.... Half the reason most people go on these Baltic Sea trips is probably just to get drunk. It's really terrible but I don't want to fly so it's my only option.
On being a Scandinavia clone: Well if that's what you want.... :grin: There are definitely worse countries to use as a model! But we have almost a million immigrants from Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and other countries 3rd world countries with totally different culture. A large proportion of them have no job. As you can imagine, that is not working well at all. But I have not seen a black or middle eastern person at all in the Baltics. Compared with that, the Russians, who you are not crazy about, are nothing, the difference in culture is marginal. Sweden and Norway have made a terrible mistake with this, in my opinion, and you have not made that mistake. One day, this might bring down our countries into chaos, while the Baltic states are unaffected.
On alcohol ads: Those are banned in Scandinavia. You can not advertise for any alcohol at all. Only international papers have it. There is enough temptation for alcoholics without having to see ads about their drug. I think that is a good law.
Following from KidKBlooms comment:
The Scandinavian system will probably not last much longer. Scandinavia is absolutely under onslaught of American media and foreign owned papers, reading these papers and listening to TV with a different message than before is changing peoples opinions. People are voting differently and are starting to think like Americans/globalists... Our system is not going to hold up for much more of this, already some very fundamental principles have been abandoned.
The idea with that system is that it's not banning alcohol completely and therefore abandoning control to criminals.
But it's making it hard to get, expensive and under state control. It can be frustrating like I said, but the idea is that normal people put up with it to prevent mass alcoholism and help those who are already trapped. In France or Italy the system would make no sense, but for us, it does.
Capecoddah, this system can not be compared with anything in America. Profit is not the motive. The motive is to keep alcohol available, but under relatively strict control.
Here is a picture of the typical Systembolaget. You can view the merchandise through glass window and read their very informative text about each bottle.... Like "this traditional vodka from Russia has a woody and spicy flavour and is produced at the factory in xyz city.... blah, blah... It is best enjoyed with potato and herring... "
Then you take a queue ticket and wait for your turn... people have to show their ID card to buy alcohol and anyone who is visibly drunk will be refused.
http://naturetravels.files.wordpress...pg?w=200&h=150
http://www.senseair.se/images/application/systemet.jpg
How silly it may seem but during last couple decades the beer commercials were 9 of 10 of all the commercials at the night time on TV. So it did hit the minds of young people that drinking as much bear as you can is cool. The beer vendors fight to death for customers since they can get unbelievable profit if they would became the most popular vendor for beer. Some years ago the ban for showing up the bear commercials at the day time was released and the discussions in government for this ban were quite hot.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkboom
Russia :DQuote:
There are definitely worse countries to use as a model
I have :P - but mostly foreign students or tourists.Quote:
But I have not seen a black or middle eastern person at all in the Baltics
Those who think that you can parasite on social security here - better forget about it :D - you will live like a bum if you do not work :D
And Scandinavia also should reform its social security system to not allow immigrants or lazy locals to parasite on others.
I really like the way you sell alcohol Scandinavia, and would like that something like that here, but I doubt that It will be allowed - alcohol manufacturer's lobby is too strong.
Hanna,
it's funny how this wonderful swedish liquor store hypernanotechnology has done very little to change the stereotype most russians have of swedes (and finns for that matter), namely that "they are all pissheads". anyone who has been on a swedish / finnish ferry will have had the shock of their lives. this kind of binge drinking that goes on there is truly shocking to the average russian.
Strict control. OK, in my state, Beer, wine and liquor is bought at a licensed retailer. We call them Package Stores because everything must be put into a package ("packy" for short). No supermarkets or convenience stores. MUST be 21 years of age with ID. 8am to 11 pm Monday - Saturday, noon -11pm Sunday. A store wouldn't risk selling to an intoxicated person or under-age because they lose their license. Some towns are dry (nothing in stores or restaurants, no bars). No drinking in public (parks, beaches, buses, streets, etc).
Varies by state except the 21 years old part. Jack Daniels whiskey is made in a dry county. Some states still have drive-through liquor stores.
Yeah what you describe Capcoddah, sounds about the same.
Windup Merchantski, yes, this stereotype is mostly true, although these ferries are the most notorious boozing places in Northern Europe.
It was even worse before the EU, when all the liquor was completely tax free, which made a huge price difference. There is a little island in the middle of the Baltic sea, called Åland which has limited independence. It decided to stay outside the EU. For that reason all the ferries that stop there, can still sell tax free alcohol.
I am in Sweden at the moment and had to close the window at my hotel because drunk people were being noisy all night on the street outside. I had the same problem when I was in Latvia recently, but for some reason, Swedes are more noisy.
I hate this culture of just boozing and hanging around on the street while drunk. It should be illegal. I wish the police would take them, then maybe they wouldn't do it again, or at least do it at home.
Recently I was in Belarus, there, there was no problem with hooligans whatsoever. I only saw one really drunk person the whole time I was there. I know it is considered a police state etc, but in a way they are doing people a favour when they stop people from abusing alcohol and disturbing others.
What is the situation with this in Russia? Lots of drunk people creating trouble? What does the police do with them, if anything?
Drunk people partying on the streets are pretty common in Russia. But in my town, for example, if they starting to cause trouble or cry drunken songs too loud police usually quickly deals with them. I remember when my wife visited Belarus for the first time and we were walking with her by the streets of Vitebsk around 11 pm she was really surprised how we didn't see any drunk persons at the streets. But right after she said that we were approached by a completely drunk guy with a black eye. He was very polite though, asked for a cigarette and left. And I said to her: "See? And you were worrying. You can feel like home now". :grin:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
In Belarus you must be 18 years old to buy alcohol and cigarettes. You should show your passport to confirm your age. But if you are enough adult (having beard etc) sellers can sell it without passport. Drinking at the street is forbidden. You will be catch by the militia patrol and pay a fine. You can drink only at home and at special designated places (For example: http://www.nest.by/files/imagecache/...dnonews.by.jpg). If you are drunk, but not lying down on the street, sleeping on the bench militia will say nothing to you. But if you disturb other people you will be catch for the violation of public order. You will be transfered to the detoxication center and when you get sober you will pay a fine for the violations and pay for a staying at the center.
I really like that there was so little anti social behaviour in Belarus.
No vandalism, graffiti, yobbery or drunk people on the street.
I wonder why there is less of that in Belarus than in Latvia for example. or maybe Russia? What do you think?
In Minsk I saw the police go up to a drunk man who had collapsed on the street. I thought "now he's really going to get it!" I hate when the police is too brutal so I thought I'd watch to see what they'd do.
But actually they were not brutal at all. They just went up to him and actually asked him how he was doing and tried to get him on his feet without being violent or aggressive at all. They were nicer than British or Swedish police would have been, for sure. I was really surprised to see that.
I didn't stay to see what happened after that. Maybe they drove him to a cell to sober up like Dmitry said.
If he could say where he lives, they even could drive him home. It depends on situation.
Did you spot any signs of life there?Quote:
No vandalism, graffiti, yobbery or drunk people on the street.
I had a nice time there. I am glad I went there although it was in a way a substitute for going to Russia (had some visa trousbles).
Belarus is a really nice country though. The people are great and it's completely Russian speaking, as opposed to Ukraine.
There is not a lot of tourism so people are really nice and hospitable.
This is the only graffiti I saw in Belarus. It was on a wall of an small industrial area by the Minskoe More recreation area
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6697/0000p5230158.jpg
Waiting for a concert on the main square in Vitebsk:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/802...00p6250581.jpg
Street scene from central Minsk
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6690/fgxdfgfdhfd.jpg
A street with lots of outdoors cafes and restaurants in Vitebsk:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3186/00000p6220553.jpg
Some "encouragement" for young people from the government of Belarus...
http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/9...00p6290596.jpg
Skaters at the Hero City Monument in Minsk:
http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/729/000p5260248.jpg
Hanna, I've been trying to get it since you first time wrote about it, still I can't: what's wrong with graffiti to you? You've even been putting graffiti in the same category with crime rate... Why is that? Is it something personal?
Graffiti sounds a bit too glamorous, I can't think of a better word. What I mean is the anti-social behaviour or vandalism (yes, it's criminal) of using spray cans to paint messages and pictures on walls.
It's usually ugly and sometimes also vulgar.
Those countries that can and want to spend money on it have it removed immediately after it is reported. Others have really harsh penalties for it.
In the UK it's not very common anymore. In Sweden I am seeing quite a bit of it, but not quite as much as Latvia.
When somebody takes the time and expense to fix up a building or a public place to make it look nice, it's awful if some stupid kids come and desicrate it.
I'd like to seem them properly punished so they are put off it and don't do it again.
Yes, I dislike it because it's ugly and it costs tax payers money to have it removed. When it happens in metro trains etc it causes delays and add costs to tickets.
It's your perogative to like graffiti and vandalism if you want Eric, but I don't and neither do most people in society.