Thread: Avvakum

Hello all,

I'm currently doing some research for school on Arch priest Avvakum who was an old believer during the Raskol.
I'm having a hard time determining his credibility as most of the texts I have read seem very biased one way or the other.
Is he considered important at all in Russia?
Is he seen as being noteworthy in any way or is he just seen as an old traditionalist who couldn't let go?

If anyone has any opinions on him it would be greatly appreciated if you could share them with me.

Thanks

I admire you. I, personally, only know that he was a famous 'raskolnik' who lived in the 17th century, and that his name is usually mentioned with the name of boyarynia Morozova. But you're a foreigner and trying to study all this profoundly.

Well, I really don't think he's "considered important in Russia", if we're talking about...er... simple people's opinion. The majority of Russians are not religious today, so they only know his name, at best. Those who are pious (or who study history) must be know more about him.

I think it's the first link you visited but just in case you need it here it is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avvakum

Follow the links in the bottom.
If you know Russian well enough you can switch to Russian version of the article (it's more extensive - there are also links there).

Also, this is the link you may wish to visit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Believers

(Keep in mind, that Russian versions contain more details).

I'm not sure that an ordinary Russian (not some overly religious person) thinks of Avvakum at all. Or knows anything about him except the very basic historical facts (at best).

Most people wouldn't be able to answer if they think him noteworthy or not, because this kind of judgement requires a strong opinion on the matter and an emotional involvement. And since the majority of Russians are atheists or not very religious (even the christened ones) they usually can't care less about some religious quarrels of the past long gone.

great. thanks for the input.
I did kind of guess that he wasn't really a huge figure in Russian history. I guess he is more the kind of person you might learn something about in history class and never think of him again.

I have seen a couple news articles recently dealing with the role of the Orthodox church in the Russian Fed. so I wasn't sure if maybe Russia is still having similar debates about the role of church and state (of course dozens of countries still have that debate today).
Is the church gaining or lessening in importance at all in Russia now? I'm from Canada and here Christianity is the main religion but most people are not really religious and it's more right-wing groups who make any sort of commotion about the churches role in politics.

Again, thanks for the input.

Oh, actually I had one more question.
From what I've read it seems that Nikon was trying to bring Russian Orthdox more in line with the other types of Orthodox (Greek, Eastern European etc) and the old believers were against this.
But some of the other areas of Russian Orthodoxy my class has looked at deals with people or subjects that made Russian Orthodoxy uniquely Russian or "Slavic" (Boris and Gleb as Russian saints, Russian icons, etc).
So would you say he succeeded in making Russian Orthodoxy more like the others and therefore removing the aspects of the church that made it unique? Is modern Russian Orthodoxy seen as being unique in a Russian way or is it seen more as just another type of Orthodoxy?

thanks,

To be honest I haven't a slightest idea about differences between Greek, Eastern European and Russian Orthodox churches.
As far as I know they recognize each other and titles of the patriachs. I gather that there is some territorial division between churches with no apparent center. Patriarchs are not subordinate to each other and have total control over their churches.

Well, at the same time there is a strong antagonism between the Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic Church to a point that they don't even have any particular desire to meet each other officially at least.

As for the religious feelings of the people in Russia, I don't think there are many zealots among us ))). The communists tried very hard to bring up a society of atheists and they partially succeeded. Not very many Russians have ever been to a church. Still the Orthodox church practically has a monopoly on souls of the rest.

It should be said further that about one third of the population of Russia are muslims (theoretically at least). That is to say that they live in territories where Islam is a dominating religion. Still many of them are not very religious too.

Originally Posted by Ramil

It should be said further that about one third of the population of Russia are muslims

One... third???! Are you kidding, Ramil?

A quotation from Wiki:
Самая массовая религия в России, в средних числах различных опросов на рубеже 2007-го и 2008-го годов, — православие (66-67 % опрошенных считают себя его приверженцами), 5-6 % — мусульмане

In English:
According to a poll by the Russian Public Opinion Research Center, 63% of respondents considered themselves Russian Orthodox, 6% of respondents considered themselves Muslim and less than 1% considered themselves either Buddhist, Catholic, Protestant or Jewish.

I am saying only that about one third of the population live in so called Muslim Republics. Many ethnic Russians live there too.

And... there is a difference between considering oneself a Christian and being a Christian. The same is true for the Muslims.

darren
i always thought that the main thing Protopop Avvakum is famous about is the fact that his book was probably the first ever written in (more or less) modern Russian. The details of 17th-century religious doctrine are not as interesting today, but Avvakum's Zhitie remains one of the most significant early Russian books.

Ramil
Are you sure that Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, North Caucasian Republics and (partly) Kalmykia make one-third of Russian population?

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Ramil
Are you sure that Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, North Caucasian Republics and (partly) Kalmykia make one-third of Russian population?

No, I'm not, but here are the regions that have substantial numbers of muslims living there:

Адыгея
Алтай
Башкортостан
Дагестан
Ингушетия
Кабардино-Балкарская
Калмыкия
Карачаево-Черкесская
Марий-Эл (Марийская)
Северная Осетия — Алания
Татарстан
Удмуртская р-ка
Хакасия
Чеченская р-ка
Чувашия
Ставропольский край
Краснодарский край
Волгоградская область
Астраханская область
Кемеровская область
Ленинградская область / Спб
Московская область / Москва
Нижегородская область
Оренбургская область
Ростовская область

Dug for some figures in Internet, it appears that I was wrong a little bit.

There are about 8% of Muslims live in Russia.

About 30% consider themselves non-religious and another 6% are atheists (non-religios mean simply that people don't know or never thought about this)

About 50% of the population consider themselves belonging to the Russian Orthodox Church - about 90% of all of the Christians in Russia.

Originally Posted by Ramil

About 50% of the population consider themselves belonging to the Russian Orthodox Church - about 90% of all of the Christians in Russia.

I don't think these numbers are very accurate. "Consider themselves" may mean whatever you like, including "it is fashionable", "they told us at school we are christians now" etc. Put the question in a more correct form, e.g "How many people are practicing orthodox christianity in Russia?" (probably coming to the Holy communion at least once a year could be a good test), and you will see quite different results. Maybe not much higher than the same 8 percent .

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Put the question in a more correct form, e.g "How many people are practicing orthodox christianity in Russia?" (probably coming to the Holy communion at least once a year could be a good test).

Well, I'm not really a Christian, but I reckon the sufficient test would be "How many people were baptized into Christianity in Russia?" (Since, technically, not going into the Church is not a sin.)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I'm not really a Christian, but I reckon the sufficient test would be "How many people were baptized into Christianity in Russia?"

Sufficient for what? If you just like to think that 60 percent of the population belong to the Orthodox church, the formula "consider themselves" is actually the best.

(Since, technically, not going into the Church is not a sin.)

yes technically it is a sin for a baptized person not to go to church.

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I'm not really a Christian, but I reckon the sufficient test would be "How many people were baptized into Christianity in Russia?"

Sufficient for what? If you just like to think that 60 percent of the population belong to the Orthodox church, the formula "consider themselves" is actually the best.

Sufficient to consider themselves Christians. If you were baptized and commit no sin, you're saved, aren't you?

Originally Posted by cinnabar

(Since, technically, not going into the Church is not a sin.)

yes technically it is a sin for a baptized person not to go to church.

Any reference from the Scripture why it's a sin?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Put the question in a more correct form, e.g "How many people are practicing orthodox christianity in Russia?" (probably coming to the Holy communion at least once a year could be a good test).

Well, I'm not really a Christian, but I reckon the sufficient test would be "How many people were baptized into Christianity in Russia?" (Since, technically, not going into the Church is not a sin.)

I was baptised when I was less than two years old. By your reckoning that makes me a Christian forever no matter what I do.

Originally Posted by scotcher

I was baptised when I was less than two years old. By your reckoning that makes me a Christian forever no matter what I do.

Did you happen to renounce your Christianity?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Originally Posted by scotcher

I was baptised when I was less than two years old. By your reckoning that makes me a Christian forever no matter what I do.

Did you happen to renounce your Christianity?

It wasn't my Christianity, it was my mum's, that's sort of the point. At no time in my life have I considered myself a Christian, yet you think I should be counted as one.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Any reference from the Scripture why it's a sin?

The main source of the Orthodox church practices is Holy Tradition, not the Scripture itself. Any Russian priest will tell you that "немолитвенность и пренебрежение к церковной службе" (which means exactly not-going to church and omitting communion) is a sin. Don't ask me why.

If you were baptized and commit no sin, you're saved, aren't you?

There's nobody without sin, I'm pretty sure this is a quote from the Scriptures