Foreign Patronoymic Names

I was reading an old thread about this subject (viewtopic.php?f=15&t=693) and decided to create my own instead of bumping it :roll:

I am 100% Polish and can speak the language fluently and I have great interest and desire to learn Russian in college. I have taken preliminary steps towards learning the Russian language, such as learning and understanding the Cyrillic alphabet, listening to Russian songs, watching Russian movies w/ English subtitles, reading (or at least attempting :)) wiki articles in Russian, and, of course, reading the lessons on this site. I have also found that knowing Polish has helped me discern the meaning of many Russian words.

I have two questions. The first question being about the Cyrillic form of my last name. My last name is spelled Grzechnik (if you are unsure of the pronunciation, type it in here and listen here: http://www.ivona.com/). The best I can come up with is "Гжехник," but I am sure you guys can correct me if I'm wrong.

My second question, which is more related to the original thread, is whether it would be insulting to Russians for me to use a patronymic form of my name if I were to go to Russia? I would also be worried as to whether it would sound unusual to native Russians. My fathers name is Sławomir, and since there is no ł sound in Russian, the Cyrillic form would be (or at least I think) Славомир. So my full name, including patronymic, would be Пётр Славомирович Гжехник (Piotr Slavomirovich Grzechnik), assuming I got my last name in correct Cyrillic form.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I have two questions. The first question being about the Cyrillic form of my last name. My last name is spelled Grzechnik (if you are unsure of the pronunciation, type it in here and listen here: http://www.ivona.com/). The best I can come up with is "Гжехник," but I am sure you guys can correct me if I'm wrong.

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Yes, your last name in Cyrillic would be Гжехник, and also you can come across another spelling, Гржехник, which is wrong as you know even better than me, bur there is a tradition in Russian, to transliterate Polish "rz" as "рж", not as just "ж".
I'm sure many of Russians will be trying to read your name (if they see it in Latin letters) as Гречник. :-D

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

My second question, which is more related to the original thread, is whether it would be insulting to Russians for me to use a patronymic form of my name if I were to go to Russia? I would also be worried as to whether it would sound unusual to native Russians. My fathers name is Sławomir, and since there is no ł sound in Russian, the Cyrillic form would be (or at least I think) Славомир. So my full name, including patronymic, would be Пётр Славомирович Гжехник (Piotr Slavomirovich Grzechnik), assuming I got my last name in correct Cyrillic form.

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I think it would be great and even very pleasant, and not at all insulting, of course. :) We are used that foreigners don't have patronymics, but when the name sounds so much Slavic, it looks very nice and natural. Only remember that we pronounce the name Sławomir with the stress on the last syllable, and your "Russian" patronymic would be Славомирович (which sounds very nice to me, really).

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I have also found that knowing Polish has helped me discern the meaning of many Russian words.

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Yes, I found that knowing Russian and Ukrainian allows me to get the essence of most Polish texts even without any special efforts to learn Polish.

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My second question, which is more related to the original thread, is whether it would be insulting to Russians for me to use a patronymic form of my name if I were to go to Russia? I would also be worried as to whether it would sound unusual to native Russians.

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No insult of cause. Sometimes foreign patronymics sound funny but in case of Slavic name it sounds quite natural. Just remember that if you use Patronymic it means that you pretend to be official and respectable.

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

No insult of course. Sometimes foreign patronymics sound[s:gu3hcu7x]s[/s:gu3hcu7x] funny, but in case of slavic names (but when slavic names are concerned), they sound[s:gu3hcu7x]s[/s:gu3hcu7x] quite natural. Just remember that if you use Patronymic it means that (it means that could be omitted) you intend to be official and respectable.

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in case you did not do it on purpose :pardon:

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Originally Posted by alexB

in case you did not do it on purpose :pardon:

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"Pretend" was intended. ;) Thnx. I found even two more typos in my post but already corrected it to hide my shame. :tease:

I have some questions about patronymics :) (sorry if they are old questions that you have already answered....)

1) Does everybody in Russia have a patronymic or are there some ethnic groups or others who don't have them ( individuals who don't know they name of their father....?)

2) Which countries other than Russia uses patronynymics?

3) Do you know if foreigners who live in Russia use patronymics?

4) How old should a person be before you address them with the patronymic?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I have some questions about patronymics :) (sorry if they are old questions that you have already answered....)

1) Does everybody in Russia have a patronymic or are there some ethnic groups who don't have them (or individuals who don't know they name of their father....?)

2) Which countries other than Russia uses patronynymics?

3) Do you know if foreigners who live in Russia use patronymics?

4) How old should a person be before you address them with the patronymic?

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1) I think Russian Empire's officials write almost all people's name with the patronymic especially when wrote documents on Russian. In Soviet time this rule also was used.

2) East Slavic.

3) See 1). Альфред Бернхард Эммануэлевич Нобель

4) 0 yeas old ;-)
For examples:
- Grand Duke a son of Emperor.
- My son. А не пора ли вам, Александр Владимирович, ложиться спать?

The age is not so essential. The patronymic is used to address senior (higher status) peoples even it are young.
The patronymic is used in all official cases.

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Originally Posted by Оля

I'm sure many of Russians will be trying to read your name (if they see it in Latin letters) as Гречник. :-D

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Grzech - Грех; Grzechnik - Грешник ;-)

Thanks Wowik! :rose:

Well I don't live there, so I don't need a patronymic.
Unfortunately my father has an old Viking name that sounds very strange outside Scandinavia. But based on his name, I think my patronymic would be "Бэнгтовна" or "Бенгтовна" Lol!
I ran it in Yandex and it only got one hit... Sounds weird I think.
Oh well, I'll worry about that if I ever move there..

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Which countries other than Russia uses patronymics?

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I think of Arabic countries they use "ibn" to indicate patronymic relation.
Also there is the wikipage which reveals a lot about history of patronyms an matronyms for Nordic countries like Sweden! Briefly many family names originate from patronyms or matronyms with the use of ending -son or -dotter. You can also find the patronymic origins in Scotland for Family names with the prefix Mac-.

Here is a cite from Russian rules for execution of graduating documents in Russian colleges or universities.

http://www.edu.ru/db/mo/Data/d_05/prm65-1.htm

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Фамилия, имя и отчество иностранного гражданина записываются по данным национального паспорта в русскоязычной транскрипции. Транскрипция должна быть согласована с выпускником вуза в письменной форме и включена в личное дело выпускника вуза.

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So foreign student do not receive patronymic if has no it in his national passport.
But it surely receive Cyrillic transcription of its name ;-)

Another rules concerning foreign peoples living in RussiaЖ
http://www.vnl-migrant.ru/pravovoe-polo ... ntsev.html

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имя иностранного гражданина, временно проживающего в Российской Федерации, включающее его фамилию, собственно имя, отчество (последнее - при наличии)

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So at present time it is possible do not have the patronymic in Russia for foreign citizens

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Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

many family names originate from patronyms ... with the use of ending -son

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-ов in Russian (Иван сын Федоров = Иван Федорович)
-ич in Serbian (and another Yugoslavian countries)

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Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

for Nordic countries like Sweden!

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I read Icelandic people has the patronymics ( xxx-son xxx-ditter) but has no family names ;-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_name

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Originally Posted by Johanna

But based on his name, I think my patronymic would be "Бэнгтовна" or "Бенгтовна"

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Yes! The traditional rule for transliteration foreign names is use Russian letter Е (witch initially was not yotized) for Latin letter E.
So Bengt should be written as Бенгт.
Letter H from German languages is traditionally substituted by Russian Г (Ганс, Гамбугр, Иоганн ...) because Г was fricative in Crunch Slavonic- old literature language in Russia.

At present time many names are transliterated more phonetically.
H are transliterated with Russian letter Х (Ханс, Йохан)
E are transliterated with Russian letter Э (Эрик)

Йоганна Бенгтовна :flazhok: .

more archaic:
Иоганна Бенгтовна

more modern-like but a little ugly for me:
Йоханна Бэнгтовна

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Originally Posted by Wowik

Йоганна Бенгтовна :flazhok: .

more archaic:
Иоганна Бенгтовна

more modern-like but a little ugly for me:
Йоханна Бэнгтовна

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http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...216334#p216334

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I have settled for Юханна! *)
Thanks for the advice with that earlier! The nicknames for my name is normally Hanna, Hanni or Jojo - but I think Hanna is the only one that sounds "normal" in Russian.

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Originally Posted by Zaya

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I have settled for Юханна!

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А, да! :oops: Теперь вспомнил!
So Юханна is modern-like phonetic transliteration could be assisted with also phonetic version of the patronymic

Юханна Бэнгтовна.

Бэнгтовна, по-моему, ужасно выглядит, Бенгтовна и Бенгт намного лучше (при этом [б] остается твердым, как и принято в словах иностранного происхождения, напр. Бенджамин, Бен).

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Originally Posted by Zaya

Бэнгтовна, по-моему, ужасно выглядит,

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По-моему тоже, но, к сожалению, теперь так становится модно.
Кстати, Бенгтов всё же ещё больше
http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%C1%E5%ED%E3%F2
http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%C1%FD%ED%E3%F2

I know about one Bengt: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Даниельссон,_Бенгт
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengt_Danielsson

He was a cook in Thor Heyerdahl's crew of Kon-Tiki and his name was transliterated as Бенгт.

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

He was a cook in Thor Heyerdahl's crew of Kon-Tiki and his name was transliterated as Бенгт.

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Oh, yeah! When I was a schoolboy I read his beautiful book about Polynesia.

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Originally Posted by Wowik

Юханна Бэнгтовна.

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Super! :good: I'll keep it like that for the time being.
Thanks for the advice!

There is relatively famous German author whose name has been transliterated as "Йоханна". (Спури). But the Icelandic singer who was in Eurovision has been transliterated as "Юханна" The letter "Ю" looks a bit "cooler" than "Й"... I even considered the English transliteration briefly --- simply because it contains "ж" (my favourite Cyrillic letter). But that would change the prounounciation from the correct "soft J" into English American "hard J" which I never really liked much.

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You are right about Scandinavian names. At least half the population has a surname that ends with -son (Sweden) or (-sen) Norway and Denmark.
Most other names are related to where the person comes from:
Green valley (Gröndal), Stream in the mountains (Strömberg) Bear's meadow lake (Björnlund) ETC!

It seems Russian names are sometimes constructed in the same way.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

3) Do you know if foreigners who live in Russia use patronymics?

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Гус Иванович Хиддинк. :D (there was even a documentary on Russian TV titled this way)

P.S. To be quite honest, Johanna, "Бэнгтовна", and even "Бенгтовна" looks and sounds very difficult to Russians.

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Originally Posted by Оля

P.S. To be quite honest, Johanna, "Бэнгтовна", and even "Бенгтовна" looks and sounds very difficult to Russians.

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As for me "Бенгтовна" is good enough for Russian eyes and ears.

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Originally Posted by Wowik

As for me "Бенгтовна" is good enough for Russian eyes and ears.

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It's because you've been to Sweden. :D

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Originally Posted by Оля

It's because you've been to Sweden. :D

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I've been only in Sweden Airspace.
http://pic.ipicture.ru/uploads/09112...U3WUjPmibZ.jpg

Okay, to Norway. No difference in this case.:)

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Originally Posted by Оля

P.S. To be quite honest, Johanna, "Бэнгтовна", and even "Бенгтовна" looks and sounds very difficult to Russians.

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Hm... Well this isn't an urgent problem since I don't live in Russia.
But if I worked in St Petersburg for a while as I had considered, then it would be nice to have a patronymic.

I wonder how to solve it? Use his second name "Erik"? OR:

How are they going to know what my father's name is... It's not in my passport. Maybe I should just "make up" the most stylish-sounding patronymic I can think of..

But I've noticed that people in Central Asia use patronymics and some of them are based on very un-Russian names.

Do such names sound strange to you? Or perhaps they are familiar anyway, because of the Soviet history?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

But I've noticed that people in Central Asia use patronymics and some of them are based on very un-Russian names.
Do such names sound strange to you? Or perhaps they are familiar anyway, because of the Soviet history?

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I think yes. Although, for example, I never was able to make out by ear what exactly is Булат Окуджава's patronymic and how it is spelled. :oops: I know it's Шалвович because I've seen it in writing once.

As for you not having a patronymic, when in Russia, there is no problem at all. Foreigners shouldn't have it, and just Юханна would be okay. Then again, if you were to stay in Russia for a long time or even forever, I think Ивановна would work perfectly. :D

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Originally Posted by Оля

I think Ивановна would work perfectly. :D

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Originally Posted by «Необыкновенный концерт» спектакль кукольного театра имени С.В.Образцова

Бетховен, Людвиг Ваныч.

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But I think Петровна is closer to Бенгтовна

Johanna, I think your patronymic should be Бенедиктовна in Russian, since Bengt is a Swedish form of Benedict which is in turn a modified Jewish name Baruch (בָּרוּךְ) (Blessed).

:D

Юханна Бенедиктовна - звучит очень красиво.

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Originally Posted by Wowik

Бергтовна

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Вот, сам же и перепутал. А говоришь, простое отчество.

Я согласна с Рамилем.

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Originally Posted by Оля

Вот, сам же и перепутал. А говоришь, простое отчество.

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Клавиши рядом!

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Originally Posted by Ramil

is in turn a modified Jewish name Baruch (בָּרוּךְ) (Blessed).

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is in turn a modified Latin Benedictus (благословенный) is in turn...???
http://kurufin.narod.ru/html/Translate/benedict.html

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Originally Posted by http://www.sweden.orthodoxy.ru/ru/chronicle/2007/

15 сентября в Покровском приходе Гетеборга прошла очередная Божественная литургия. Впервые в истории прихода ее совершили клирики трех Поместных Православных Церквей: Московского, Сербского и Константинопольского Патриархатов. Богослужение возглавил настоятель Сергиевского прихода в Стокгольме протоиерей Владимир Александров. Ему сослужили священник Неманя Мияйлович и диакон Бенгт (Бенедикт) Хагстрем.

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But sometimes these names are distinguished

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Со стороны компании «СтатойлГидро АСА» в заседании приняли участие президент г-н Бенгт Ли Хансен, директор по связям с промышленностью г-н Бенедикт Хенриксен.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Johanna, I think your patronymic should be Бенедиктовна in Russian.

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No it shouldn't! Here are another variants :flazhok:

Юхана Венедиктовна or
Юхана Венидиктовна!

Венидикт is "REAL Russian" name - it is in Orthodox church calendar so this name can be given while christening.

Тогда честнее будет Баруховна :D

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Тогда честнее будет Баруховна :D

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1. Это не по-русски. Такого нет в свяцах.
2. Я не уверен, что Benedictus заимствован из Барух. Это же просто перевод! http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Benedictus

Начнем с того, что имени Юханна тоже в святцах нет. Мне больше нравится Бенедиктовна. Оно подчеркивает иностранность, но звучит красиво.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Начнем с того, что имени Юханна тоже в святцах нет. Мне больше нравится Бенедиктовна. Оно подчеркивает иностранность, но звучит красиво.

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Тут руссифицировали именно отчество, а не имя.
Ну а в целом - так звучит гораздо привычней, чем Бенгтовна.
Бенедиктовны у нас на каждом шагу! Польша-то рядом, да и Германия. Да и мировая революция была на носу.
http://yandex.ru/yandsearch?text=%D0%91 ... 0%BD%D0%B0

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Johanna, I think your patronymic should be Бенедиктовна in Russian, since Bengt is a Swedish form of Benedict which is in turn a modified Jewish name Baruch (בָּרוּךְ) (Blessed).

:D

Юханна Бенедиктовна - звучит очень красиво.

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Thanks Ramil! Honestly, that that sounds pretty chic, doesn't it?

I had no idea the name was based on "Benedikt" - I thought it was an old viking name! Thanks for putting me right!

Бенгт vs Бенедикт is a Russian Orthodox custom, everyone must have a name from a list of saints. Russian female parishiners whose name is Tatiana routinely name themselves "Fotinia" before taking communion. Other Orthodox Churches don't have this tradition.

So once Johanna needed a patronimic, an official would register what he/she would hear.