What's it like in Gagra today?

I understand the tourist resort Gagra is now located in Abkhazia which is a sort of "no-mans-land".

Has anyone been there at all, or even better -- recently? Or do you know somebody who's been there?
Is it possible to have a nice holiday there, despite all the troubles? What is the future for this region/town?

I am curious about it! I was fascinated to "discover" Transnistria / Pridnestrovie when I was out travelling and now I would like to find out about other areas in a similar situation. Perhaps Donbass will end up in a similar situation too.....

Отзывы о Гагре на «Тонкостях туризма»


Вот один хороший отзыв:

Вичка.Беларусь.Минск. был(а) здесь в июне 2015, оценка10

Отдыхали с подругой второй раз в Абхазии. Не знаю, про какую инфекцию пишут, но в июне и в июле ничего подобного не встречала. Природа супер!!!!!!! И между прочим, Гагра действительно красивое место! То, что море грязное - это полный бред, море там чистое, бирюзового цвета, очень много дельфинов (сама видела, причём с берега). Люди, лично нам, встречались все гостеприимные. Мы с подругой ходили каждый вечер в кафе, и по городу гуляли и никто на нас не нападал и тем более не грабил. Насчёт питания, то мы готовили сами и ничем не травились. А цены там не бешеные, а вполне приемлемы, у нас, в Беларуси, всё в три раза дороже (в частности, в Минске). Единственный минус, это проблема "как перейти дорогу?". Светофоров очень мало, поэтому рассчитываешь на сознательность водителей и собственную скоростную реакцию. Не знаю, как другие, но я влюбилась в Абхазию, её природу, горы... . И каждый год езжу и буду ездить!

Вичка. Беларусь. Минск. считает, что тут хорошо: ездить по экскурсиям, купаться - загорать на пляже

My mom visited Abkhazia several years ago when she was on vacations at Sochi. For Russian citizens it's easy but I don't know if it's even possible to visit for foreigners. She was there before at Soviet times and it's looks quite bad comparing to like it was looking before but mostly because of war in the beginning of 90s. Therea are still some war-torn buildings left. But it was about 5 years ago so I don't know how it looks like now. Btw I've spent my vacation this august in Crimea and it was beautiful. I strongly recommend to visit it, you will need a Russian visa for it though.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Отзывы о Гагре на «Тонкостях туризма»


Вот один хороший отзыв:

Вичка.Беларусь.Минск. был(а) здесь в июне 2015, оценка10

Отдыхали с подругой второй раз в Абхазии. Не знаю, про какую инфекцию пишут, но в июне и в июле ничего подобного не встречала. Природа супер!!!!!!! И между прочим, Гагра действительно красивое место! То, что море грязное - это полный бред, море там чистое, бирюзового цвета, очень много дельфинов (сама видела, причём с берега). Люди, лично нам, встречались все гостеприимные. Мы с подругой ходили каждый вечер в кафе, и по городу гуляли и никто на нас не нападал и тем более не грабил. Насчёт питания, то мы готовили сами и ничем не травились. А цены там не бешеные, а вполне приемлемы, у нас, в Беларуси, всё в три раза дороже (в частности, в Минске). Единственный минус, это проблема "как перейти дорогу?". Светофоров очень мало, поэтому рассчитываешь на сознательность водителей и собственную скоростную реакцию. Не знаю, как другие, но я влюбилась в Абхазию, её природу, горы... . И каждый год езжу и буду ездить!

Вичка. Беларусь. Минск. считает, что тут хорошо: ездить по экскурсиям, купаться - загорать на пляже

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Я скорее склонен доверять отрицательным отзывам, судя по тому что я слышал. Ситуация там не фонтан. Ехать туда отдыхать в ближайшее время я бы не советовал.

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Ехать туда отдыхать в ближайшее время я бы не советовал.

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Although I have no immediate plans, I think it would be very interesting to go there, particularly if it's possible to swim and get a tan at the same time.... I don't like packed beaches anyway.

I wonder what money they use, and how they support themselves? Particularly if there is no longer much tourism going on...

Regarding non-Russians/locals going there. Anyone wanting to try it would have to investigate beforehand.

I had an experience with this when I travelled through Pridnestrovie, I didn't have any information at all, apart from what some local people in Kishinev (capital of Moldova) told me. I had planned to simply take the train from Kishinev to Odessa, but they explained that Pridnestrovie was "in the way" and that the train was held up there for hours, in the middle of the night. Instead of train, they recommended marshrutka/bus. Because they were local, they didn't know that the bus was not allowed for foreigners (meaning non-ex-USSR people). I am sure the person who sold me the ticket could hear that I was not a local person, so they really should have mentioned it, or asked to check my passport. But they didn't.

When we got to the border, the bus driver got really irritated with me because I hadn't told him that I was a foreigner when I boarded the bus. (He never asked!) "Never do this again", he said angrily in front of the whole bus. But there was no actual problem, they let me through and issued a border visa. The other people on the bus didn't know about the restriction either.

After reading about Basil77's mother and her holiday it occurrered to me to check Youtube and I found some holiday clips by Russian speaking people. It doesn't seem like anyone else goes there.

You can really see the shadow of a glamorous past in this town, and the weather seems to be constantly sunny. The sea is a very pretty turquoise shade, but the beaches are not soft white sand but more gravel-like sand (this is a minus, in my opinion).

I also got the impression that Gagra can only be reached by car/bus (possibly also train). It makes sense - probably no airport in an "unofficial" country.
Hence: Land route via either Russia or Georgia.

Another thing on the plus side must be that it's cheap.

I feel sorry for the people. They absolutely don't want to be in Georgia, and Russia can/won't accept them so they are stuck in no-mans-land. I think it's a nice gesture of goodwill for anyone who feels inspired, to go there.

(On the other hand, as Basil77 suggested - Crimea might be a more fun option with more to see and do! I have never been there....)

As I said before, I don't recommend people from countries which didn't recognized Abhazia to visit it. First, is case of emergency, you will have no one to help you. There are Russian embassy there and Russian consulate so Russian citizens can contact it if they have problems with local authorities. But since your country count this territory as Georgia then officially you enter Georgian territory without permission from Georgian officials (if you cross the border from Russia), it's a crime by Georgian laws punishable by 10 years of prison. And you can't enter from Georgia, because the border is closed from there because they count Abkhazia as a Georgian province captured by some separatist bandints. If you enter from Russia they probably put a stamp in your passport and if you ever will go with this passport to Georgia you will be immediately arrested. For Russian and Belorussian citizens it's not a problem because we can visit Abkhazia just showing our internal passport (ID) without putting any stamps in it. When you visited Transdnistria you didn't encounted this problem because Moldavian officials allowed foreigners to visit Transdnistria enclave until recent events afaik (I don't know how the things are now but I suspect it's no longer valid because Pridnestrovie is in heavy blockade now from both Ukrainian and Moldavian sides by the order to Ukrainian and Moldavian puppet goverments from their masters in USA). In case of Crimea since you have a Russian visa you can visit safely (I suggest flight from Moscow or St. Petersburg or any other Russian cities, you can also cross the Kerch strait by ferry). Since Russia recognise Crimea as it's territory you are protected by Russian laws there, can contact Swedish consulate in case of any problems, etc. Ukraine counts visits to Crimea from Russia as a crime (they even started a crime case on Silvio Berlusconi recently for visiting Crimea with Putin, lol) but you shouldn't worry about it because there is no border control between Crimea and the rest of Russia so no stamps in passport and since you are not a public person the buisness where you go inside of Russia borders is up to you and Russian althorities and no one else. Also according my own experience police officers in Crimea suddenly become very uncorrupt just because their salary rised like 5 times since they became Russian policemen and very afraid to lose their job, so Crimea is probably the safest place in Russia now, lol. I was driving by Crimean roads for two weeks and chatted with a couple of road policemen there, this info is from my talks with them. Btw I saw quite a few foreign cars on Crimean roads, from EU in particular. Licence plates were from France, Germany Poland and Baltic countries as I remember. I even saw a Chinese licence plate there on some car.

I understand what you are saying and I hadn't considered the risk that I might take ill, or get in some other trouble, for example get robbed. This was mainly speculative though - I wasn't planning any immediate journey, just pondering it. It was prompted by some old pictures that I came across of Gagra, and I thought: "Wow that's really charming, I wonder what it's like now?" And it reminded me of Transnistria.

Sounds like Crimea is the place to go! I'd really love to and it's on my list of places to visit sometime soon.

But it would be an extremely strong political marking, from a European perspective. If I went to Crimea and told people, the reaction would be something like "you are a lackey of Putin and support Russia's invasion of Ukraine - you should be ashamed of yourself". Of course, I know that is not the truth, just a very skewed opinion. But that's the climate now.

My sister's husband for example, has a senior defense-related job. Since the Ukraine crisis kicked off he has become extremely anti-Russia. He has a Twitter account in his official position and is constantly tweeting negative stuff about Russia, in relation to his area of expertise. He's developed quite a following online. Possibly good for his career, or maybe he just became a fanatic. It's really infuriating. Talking about a trip to Crimea at Christmas dinner with him could really spice things up, and might lead to me not being invited to their guest cottage anymore.... Even my dad who can speak reasonable Russian and has always been very pragmatic about Russia/USSR has been taken in by the hype. And my best friend wast totally shocked about my trip when I stayed for quite a long time in Belarus. After all it's "the last dictatorship in Europe" and she totally believed it.

I'd ignore the criticism either way, but that's the reality of the situation - and it IS controversial!
I am not doubting the opinion of the Crimeans, but Russia did act in a very opportunistic way to get back it's crown jewel.

Because of the relentless propaganda: Expressing sympathy for Russia nowadays is just a few notches below expressing sympathy for ISIS in the eyes of many Europeans. After all "Putin shot down a plane of innocient people". That's how effective the propaganda has been.

I have a strong feeling that the EU cars you saw in Crimea mainly belong to expat Russians.
But I wonder how they drove there - when the Ukraine land route is closed? Maybe it isn't?

As far as Crimea being international: From my perspective, the less other Europeans there, the better!
To me, at least part of the attraction would be that it is 100% Russian speaking, with signs only in Russian.
I wouldn't learn anything if there were lots of Western Europeans around, and signs in English, like at Mediterranean holiday destinations. From Crimea's perspective I guess the more international tourists the better though.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

But I wonder how they drove there - when the Ukraine land route is closed? Maybe it isn't?

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Ukraine border isn't closed for private cars, but it's controlled by Nazi bandits from the Ukrainian side and you can be easily robbed or even beaten and raped by them, I'm not joking there are hundreds of accidents and even videos on youtube, "official" Ukrainian goverment in Kiev just "doesn't notice" this. Most people who drive by car there cross Kerch strait by ferry from Taman peninsula, ferry crossing takes only about an hour. My friend used this ferry a month ago and said it's very well organized, convinient and pretty cheap. I myself got there by plane and rented a car in airport just because I was afraid that almost 2000 km drive will be too hard to withstand for my 5 y.o. daughter.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Ukraine border isn't closed for private cars, but it's controlled by Nazi bandits from the Ukrainian side and you can be easily robbed or even beaten and raped by them

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I can see the objectivity of the channels you watch is truly unprecedented. :ROFL:

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

I can see the objectivity of the channels you watch is truly unprecedented. :ROFL:

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I personally know several people who got troubles there. Also there are hundreds of videos like this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGw1tyjR_k8

Ok, I appreciate the warning. (But I think you should be a bit more considerate about Ukrainians - can't all be Nazis even if there has been legitimate incidents on that border)

If I was going to take the land route (and I love travelling by train) then Ukraine would be easier. To have a really cool holiday I could, for example, arrive via Ukraine and then continue into Russia via the ferry route that you mention, and just do a kind of "loop".

What was that you said about Pridnestrovie / Transnistria?
Has Ukraine changed its stance against this "country" now? (I like that place - I think it's very cool and the people were super-nice.)

When I was travelling there, there was no major problem (however, I missed one of the stamps I needed in my passport; either exit from Moldova or entry into Ukraine). The Belarus border police was none too happy about it.

Odessa and Transnistria had quite a close relationship from what my taxi drive told me. He said lots of people travel back and forth between there all the time - so from the point of view of regular people that would be very sad.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

I personally know several people who got troubles there. Also there are hundreds of videos like this on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGw1tyjR_k8

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Even if we pretend for a couple of mins the video wasn't staged, there's a former Ukrainian citizen there who had supported the annexation of part of the territory of his country, and switched his citizenship. Of course, the officers had a few questions to ask him. But first, no one beat or raped him (following your video), and second - maybe Hanna, as a foreign tourist who was never involved in that annexation won't have such issues after all? =))

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Ok, I appreciate the warning. (But I think you should be a bit more considerate about Ukrainians - can't all be Nazis even if there has been legitimate incidents on that border)

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I never called all Ukrainians nazis. I called nazis this particular group, it's semi-official batallion "Azov" who openly declares it's nazi ideology and wear SS sybolic on their uniform. They are openly nazis and don't hide it at all:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion
They created their own checkpoints on roads before the official border guards and Ukrainian border guards and police pretend that they don't notice them. People who was robbed by them called police, police came than turned around and pretended that nothing is happening.

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If I was going to take the land route (and I love travelling by train) then Ukraine would be easier. To have a really cool holiday I could, for example, arrive via Ukraine and then continue into Russia via the ferry route that you mention, and just do a kind of "loop".

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All trains to Crimea was cancelled a year ago. If you want to get there by train you have to wait untill 2018 when the bridge will be opened.

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What was that you said about Pridnestrovie / Transnistria?
Has Ukraine changed its stance against this "country" now? (I like that place - I think it's very cool and the people were super-nice.)
When I was travelling there, there was no major problem (however, I missed one of the stamps I needed in my passport; either exit from Moldova or entry into Ukraine). The Belarus border police was none too happy about it.
Odessa and Transnistria had quite a close relationship from what my taxi drive told me. He said lots of people travel back and forth between there all the time - so from the point of view of regular people that would be very sad.

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Since the coup in Ukraine the things have changed. Now Transdnistria blockaded from both sides and it's very hard to cross the border there afaik, especially from Ukrainian side.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Even if we pretend for a couple of mins the video wasn't staged, there's a former Ukrainian citizen there who had supported the annexation of part of the territory of his country, and switched his citizenship. Of course, the officers had a few questions to ask him. But first, no one beat or raped him (following your video), and second - maybe Hanna, as a foreign tourist who was never involved in that annexation won't have such issues after all? =))

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You think that the guy deserve it because he just lives in Crimea and changed citizenship since Crimea became Russian, ok. Btw, when I was in Crimea I was told by locals that if you get Russian licence plate on your car issued in Crimea and go to Ukraine by it the car bill be confiscated because Ukraine consider such licence plates "illegal". So people who drive to Ukraine from Crimea are still keep their Ukrainian licence plates. But despite that the majority of Crimean car owners already changed plates to Russian. For comparison, than Soviet Union collapsed, most people were using old Soviet licence plates for years, my dad had Soviet licence plate on his car untill 2000.
Ok, have another example, this couple were robbed:

Участники блокады на границе отобрали у крымчан и разбили дорогое шампанское [фото] | Новости Севастополя

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Originally Posted by Basil77

You think that the guy deserve it because he just lives in Crimea and changed citizenship since Crimea became Russian, ok. Btw, when I was in Crimea I was told by locals that if you get Russian licence plate on your car issued in Crimea and go to Ukraine by it the car bill be confiscated because Ukraine consider such licence plates "illegal". So people who drive to Ukraine from Crimea are still keep their Ukrainian licence plates. But despite that the majority of Crimean car owners already changed plates to Russian. For comparison, than Soviet Union collapsed, most people were using old Soviet licence plates for years, my dad had Soviet licence plate on his car untill 2000.
Ok, have another example, this couple were robbed:

Участники блокады на границе отобрали у крымчан и разбили дорогое шампанское [фото] | Новости Севастополя

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All of what you said just goes to show the only side who benefited from the annexation of Crimea is mainland Russia, while it's a total inconvenience for both Ukraine and Crimeans.

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All of what you said just goes to show the only side who benefited from the annexation of Crimea is mainland Russia, while it's a total inconvenience for both Ukraine and Crimeans.

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Current Ukrainian goverment is trying to do it's best to create problems in everyday life of ordinary people who live in Crimea (border incidents, block freshwater channel, swich off electical lines, food blockade etc.) but it certanly don't help Crimeans to love their former state. Most people there started to hate Ukraine with all their hearts because of that. If at times of referendum about 20% of Crimeans didn't want to join Russia (most of them simply didn't vote) than now very few such people left, most of them changed their opinion. I met such people there myself.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Current Ukrainian goverment is trying to do it's best to create problems in everyday life of ordinary people who live in Crimea (border incidents, block freshwater channel, swich off electical lines, food blockade etc.) but it certanly don't help Crimeans to love their former state.

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If Russia wanted Crimea so badly, why wouldn't it consider solving all those technical issues prior to doing the annexation, so the peninsula wouldn't be dependent on "its former state" ? ;)

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

If Russia wanted Crimea so badly, why wouldn't it consider solving all those technical issues prior to doing the annexation, so the peninsula wouldn't be dependent on "its former state" ? ;)

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The answer is easy: if USA wouldn't organized violent coup d'état then Crimea would still be Ukrainian. This was a sudden response move, not a long planned operatioin.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

If Russia wanted Crimea so badly, why wouldn't it consider solving all those technical issues prior to doing the annexation, so the peninsula wouldn't be dependent on "its former state" ? ;)

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It was an urgent situation, not something that was pre-planned.
The people in Crimea got seriously worried about a Majdan type situation there, and hooligans from that neo-nazi organisation coming there and wreaking havoc (which they had said they would).

So various leading figures locally decided to take pre-emptive action by blocking action and talking about a referendum. Russia was more than happy to play along, with green men and everything else that followed.

There wasn't time to stop and think about water viaducts and gas pipelines or whatever else has been causing problems after Ukraine started blocking.
Plus, I think that as things progressed, the Crimeans got re-assurances from Moscow that Russia would have their back whatever happened.
I think Russia was prepared to do pretty much anything at all to help people there and was absolutely over the moon about having Crimea back.
It somewhat unfair though - that Crimea is treated like the Prodigal Son whereas Donetsk/Lugansk are on their own, and really suffering despite turning to Moscow.
It's a complex situation but Russia decided to pull out all the stops for Crimea but not for Donetsk/Lugansk.

On the Transnistria issue: Thanks for the update Basil77. That is SO sad to hear. Of course, this is not covered in Western media at all. Nobody knows anything about it. I know I said that the country is "cool" and that's true, but there is also a lot of poverty and problems there, so in a way, my comment was stupid.

They are cut off from the international monetary system. A lot of infrastructure was in a really bad state - for example I travelled in a tram that looked like 1950s vintage - it was fixed up with duct tape to keep it together.

People there are forced to live on really low sums of money - I'd guess a few hundred dollars a month if they are lucky. All sorts of shady business going on for people to stay afloat. That is not "cool", it's sad. It's the spirit of the people that was admirable. I spoke with a woman who had moved there from Moscow to be with her husband who was local She said they had chosen to live there, rather than Moscow because the country needed them. Admirable, since this couple was well-educated and could have a much better living standard in Moscow, no doubt. There were lots of banners and slogans saying things like "Friendship with Russia forever" and similar. Plus, instead of removing Soviet symbols, I got the impression they actually put up more. And everybody seemed to be religious! It was a very unique kind of place with a very resilient and gutsy population.

I wonder if Donetsk / Lugansk will end up in a similar situation as Transnistria and Abkhazia - in limbo / vacuum.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

People there are forced to live on really low sums of money - I'd guess a few hundred dollars a month if they are lucky.

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You would be surprised to learn that a lot of Russian/CIS areas, and specifically lots of those you traveled to in 2011 have that poverty issue - median salaries of $100-200 a month, it's safe to say that Moldova and Belarus are going through that for sure - those are the poorest countries of the area. Well, I think it's the price they pay for having socialist imbeciles in the office. What's sadder is not all of those areas let people decide on the government they wanna have, but that's another story.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

It somewhat unfair though - that Crimea is treated like the Prodigal Son whereas Donetsk/Lugansk are on their own, and really suffering despite turning to Moscow.

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The Russians know they broke the international law by the annexation of Crimea alone, and they're not likely to take the risk and gamble with other areas of sovereign countries with that sort of action. Plus, they've had the chance to see what those "Donetsk fighters" really are, and I think at this point, they despise them even more than the Ukrainians do.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

The answer is easy: if USA wouldn't organized violent coup d'état then Crimea would still be Ukrainian. This was a sudden response move, not a long planned operatioin.

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You have to stop your filthy rotten propaganda machine here. (Trolling, flaming)
Second warning.

I think there is a lot of truth to what Basil77 is saying even if he is a bit to blunt with saying it. There are definitely two sides to what happened there, and he is a strong supporter of the nationalistic Russian viewpoint - that's all!

I mean - we all heard those leaked phone calls from Washington, about who they wanted in charge and who was rejected. (and f*ck the EU!)

We know Basil77 - he's been a member for ages and is not some propaganda troll. This is his heartfelt opinion. Just like Eric C has a heartfelt dislike for Putin, Russian politics and anything relating to socialism.

And it's open to anyone to contradict him, or prove him wrong. I think he should be allowed freedom of speech as long as he isn't rude or offensive.

English speaking visitors are not likely to hear this anywhere else, so I think his voice is important. And after all - this forum is partly about understanding Russia. Basil77 expresses the viewpoint of millions in Russia.

Clearly this is personal for lots of people here and I think Basil77 has mentioned that he has in-laws in Ukraine, so it's understandable that he is passionate - particularly if his wife is affected.

That said, I also think Basil77 should be a bit more sensitive.

It's partly my fault as well, for asking about this.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

You have to stop your filthy rotten propaganda machine here. (Trolling, flaming)
Second warning.

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It's not propaganda, it's a simple truth. "Filthy rotten propaganda" is what you hear every day on CNN, BBC, Euronews, etc.

Thank you for your support, Hanna. You are right, my in-laws indeed encountered some personal problems now after all this happenings, I even think now about buying a house for them here in Russia becasue it's became litereally impossible to live in hellhole that junta in Kiev turned Ukraine into.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

You would be surprised to learn that a lot of Russian/CIS areas, and specifically lots of those you traveled to in 2011 have that poverty issue - median salaries of $100-200 a month, it's safe to say that Moldova and Belarus are going through that for sure

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Yes I am aware if this, and several people told me their personal situation; it's between 500-1000 for regular people in Belarus, but you need to bear in mind that they have regulated economy with artificially reduced prices for basic products.

Tragically in Ukraine, it's below USD 100 for some people, and simply no jobs for many healthy and well educated adults. Apparently over a million have are working in Poland in addition to millions already in Russia. It's too tragic for words. Well educated people picking fruit and cleaning in Poland while their kids are with grandparents.

(Deleted. L.)

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Originally Posted by Basil77

You are right, my in-laws indeed encountered some personal problems now after all this happenings, I even think now about buying a house for them here in Russia.

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That would be amazing, if you are in a position to do that.
It's so, so tragic and to think that Ukrainians should have to go through hell again, when they already experienced it in the 1990s.
I wonder about the forum member it-ogo and whether he has left his hometown or whether he's still around there. If he left, where he went to.
He was a very credible representative for the pro-Kiev viewpoint, despite living in Donbass. I think he had a good life there and I fear things could be really awful for him at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I wonder about the forum member it-ogo and whether he has left his hometown or whether he's still around there. If he left, where he went to.
He was a very credible representative for the pro-Kiev viewpoint, despite living in Donbass. I think he had a good life there and I fear things could be really awful for him at the moment.

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He lived in Kramatorsk which is controlled by Kiev for now.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Yes I am aware if this, and several people told me their personal situation; it's between 500-1000 for regular people in Belarus, but you need to bear in mind that they have regulated economy with artificially reduced prices for basic products.

Tragically in Ukraine, it's below USD 100 for some people, and simply no jobs for many healthy and well educated adults. Apparently over a million have are working in Poland in addition to millions already in Russia. It's too tragic for words. Well educated people picking fruit and cleaning in Poland while their kids are with grandparents.

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I think what makes Ukraine different from those other poor areas there is, it's only temporary in Ukraine, and caused by unforeseeable factors (violent war, terrorism, and annexation of their territories). Just as they deal with the situation in the east (which is the most crucial of all they still have pending), they'll start getting back to normal. They might even (at last) join the EU & NATO. While those other areas seem to have made their miserable existence their lifestyle.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

(Deleted. L.)

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Would you please stop putting my name in quotes from now on? Because that can very well be treated as a personal insult (and it will be), and this resource, AFAIK, has a zero tolerance policy for that.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

It's not propaganda, it's a simple truth. "Filthy rotten propaganda" is what you hear every day on CNN, BBC, Euronews, etc.

Thank you for your support, Hanna. You are right, my in-laws indeed encountered some personal problems now after all this happenings, I even think now about buying a house for them here in Russia becasue it's became litereally impossible to live in hellhole that junta in Kiev turned Ukraine into.

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Flaming and trolling.
Третье и последнее предупреждение перед баном на семь дней.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Would you please stop putting my name in quotes from now on? Because that can very well be treated as a personal insult (and it will be), and this resource, AFAIK, has a zero tolerance policy for that.

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Sure. I'll explain why I did it though. I do not think it's your name. That spelling is used in the English and French speaking countries. You are not a native English speaker and I do not believe you are from the francophonie either; or you would have been open about your background.

If my assumption is incorrect; feel free to explain the real circumstances!
In the meantime, I pay no respect to comments from somebody who is set to be a "ghost" while everyone else is debating with open cards.

My conclusion is that your nickname is not based on your real name — hence the quotation marks.

It would not bother me if somebody put quotes around my nickname; why should it?

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There was nothing rude about the above mark: It is an honest and politely phrased response to a comment directed at me, from a member who consistently joins every thread I start, or participate in. He expresses strong sentiments and views without ever explaining his own interest, or the source of his statement.

I find this situation frustrating.

If my response is removed, I will be offended.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Flaming and trolling.
Третье и последнее предупреждение перед баном на семь дней.

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Truth hurts?

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Truth hurts?

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Trolling. Честно заработанный бan - 7 days

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Sure. I'll explain why I did it though. I do not think it's your name. That spelling is used in the English and French speaking countries. You are not a native English speaker and I do not believe you are from the francophonie either; or you would have been open about your background.

If my assumption is incorrect; feel free to explain the real circumstances!
In the meantime, I pay no respect to comments from somebody who is set to be a "ghost" while everyone else is debating with open cards.

My conclusion is that your nickname is not based on your real name — hence the quotation marks.

It would not bother me if somebody put quotes around my nickname; why should it?

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There was nothing rude about the above mark: It is an honest and politely phrased response to a comment directed at me, from a member who consistently joins every thread I start, or participate in. He expresses strong sentiments and views without ever explaining his own interest, or the source of his statement.

I find this situation frustrating.

If my response is removed, I will be offended.

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I don't ask anybody here to "open their cards". If they do so, it's their deliberate choice and I just respect it. Just the same way, I expect my choice on that matter (not to reveal my personal information) to be respected too. I don't see how it could be a problem for anyone, except those planning to use that information to do malicious stuff. And honestly, nobody besides you on this forum has ever requested this information in a way that would make me worry.

Now, if I say it's my name, would I be expecting anyone saying s/he doesn't believe it's my name? Obviously, not! Making assumptions (faulty, mostly) about someone and doubting any fact about him like you do is at the very least impolite. I would expect that kind of behavior from someone who is 10-12 y.o., but from what you said about yourself, you're 3 times as old. So, please stop that primitive trolling - there are plenty of ways to smash your opponent's arguments in a debate, other than reducing to mocking their name.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

If Russia wanted Crimea so badly, why wouldn't it consider solving all those technical issues prior to doing the annexation, so the peninsula wouldn't be dependent on "its former state" ? ;)

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I think you are missing the point. It's Crimeans that wanted to go back to Russia for a long-long time. Russia just seized the opportunity and made it happen, before the war.
Crimea has lots of problems but what is certain - Crimians do not want to go back to Ukraine. And Kiev just wants to punish regular people for that, applying master-slave mentality here: closing borders, cutting water, trying to cut electricity and all this with European and American leaders turning a blind eye.

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Originally Posted by hddscan

I think you are missing the point. It's Crimeans that wanted to go back to Russia for a long-long time. Russia just seized the opportunity and made it happen, before the war.
Crimea has lots of problems but what is certain - Crimians do not want to go back to Ukraine. And Kiev just wants to punish regular people for that, applying master-slave mentality here: closing borders, cutting water, trying to cut electricity and all this with European and American leaders turning a blind eye.

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I can understand the explanation of the event (of annexation) being spontaneous, but then, their new mainland will have to build all the infrastructure necessary, anyway. It would be extremely stupid to rely on their former mainland helping them in what they're doing, especially given the circumstances of the mainland change.

I would be careful with statements like "It's Crimeans that wanted to go back to Russia", and "Crimians do not want to go back to Ukraine", maybe some of them don't, but those sound like "all of them don't". Some polls during that referendum of 2014 reported the will of 146% (or so, if I'm not mistaken) voters to change their country. =))

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

I would be careful with statements like "It's Crimeans that wanted to go back to Russia"...

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I think there will be long-lasting disinformation about Crimea in western media. It is perfect example of such thing.
Try to read wiki and try to answer some questions:
Which population is biggest in Crimea?
Which language is biggest as "native language" in Crimea?
Why did Crimea want to separate from Ukraine immidiately after USSR breakup?
Why did Crimea become "autonomous republic" among other regions of Ukraine?

And this is not the whole picture.

Alex80, yes, that is what any Western European would discover, who tried to investigate on his own.

(Deleted. L.)

For anyone else:
If Crimeans were unhappy about the situation, every single Western media outlet would be there interviewing the people with complaints!
It would be on the news and in the papers.

The problem is, they can't find anyone credible with legitimate complaints about Russia. And really, that's not surprising, given that everyone has doubled or tripled their income since the area became Russian. Also given that it's clear that the area is going to be revitalised and receive huge investments from Moscow. Who in their right mind would be unhappy with such a situation - most of them are ethnic Russians anyway! This is such a no-brainer.

I saw some news coverage shortly after the referendum and the reporter from a Western media outlet actually said"We've been trying to find somebody who is not happy with the result, but so far, we haven't been able to find anyone".

So from the Western perspective, there is no story worth telling, on the ground. No people who are really unhappy about the situation, hence they do not do on-the-ground reports from Crimea!

If Russia messed up and upset people on Crimea, so they turned against Moscow for some reason; Then Western media would immediately seize on it and start reporting about miserable, oppressed and tearful people. But it seems like Crimea is the darling of all of Russia at the moment. They are not likely to complain, given what the alternative is.

Same as Russian media regularly reports about people in Kiev who are unhappy about the current regime, and there seems to be plenty.
If you are against something, you only report about it if you can find people who criticize it. Propaganda 101.

Western media is instead writing pieces about how Russia obtained Crimea illegally, a position that at least has some amount of factual basis. It can legitimately be said that the annexation was not quite per UN principles (whatever they may be...)

Additionally: When writing about it, they are trying to make it look like Crimea was some completely random piece of foreign territory that Russia just wanted.... The implied suggestion is: If they could invade Crimea, they could invade anywhere! Tallinn or Helsinki could be next! Anyone could be next!

This argument is used in Sweden Finland at the moment, to try to steer public opinion towards supporting NATO membership.

A lot of younger people, uneducated people etc just take it at face value and are now genuinely scared of Russia.

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Same as Russian media regularly reports about people in Kiev who are unhappy about the current regime, and there seems to be plenty.
If you are against something, you only report about it if you can find people who criticize it. Propaganda 101.

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If to be honest, I can't recall that the Russian media reported that all people in Kiev are unhappy about the current regime. Russian propaganda machine works with our emotions, plays on our stereotypes, tries to inspire us, but it doesn't misrepresent facts.

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The implied suggestion is: If they could invade Crimea, they could invade anywhere! Tallinn or Helsinki could be next! Anyone could be next! This argument is used in Sweden Finland at the moment, to try to steer public opinion towards supporting NATO membership. A lot of younger people, uneducated people etc just take it at face value and are now genuinely scared of Russia.

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It's so strange to hear. Where is logic, at the hollydays? :) What did russians "forgot" in Tallinn or Helsinki? :wacko:

There is one clip in the Internet about russian view of information war. I don't like work of the autors, but this clip is cool. It has two versions:
* for russians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLes...ion_1457752363
* for english speakers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHfB...ion_2452199241.
Versions are same, only their endings are different.