Thread: So, my book doesn't mention some things

First of all, I might as well mention that I'm taking latin, and some because of the way my teacher explained certain things and what they are (Cases, participles, tenses, infinitives, etc) I have been able to study and understand them in russian. Now, we've not done anything dealing with moods, though I've heard we've done the indicative mood already without knowing it. I am now aware that russian has moods too, and my textbook failed to mention that just like it didn't mention gerunds, and the remaining participles. So...I am basically asking what the subjunctive mood and passive voice are, how to form them, how they're translated...and how to use them. I'm also wondering how to form gerunds...I've noticed a lot of them end in -я, so I'm assuming you take the stem and add that ending? How do you use gerunds? Thanks!

Your textbook will probably get to that a little later... I can't imagine a textbook without gerunds and the conditional-subjunctive.

Actually...I don't believe it does mention gerunds. I did make a mistake saying it didn't finish all the participles...I looked over it a few minutes ago and realized ,"Oh, I didn't get everything. Now I get it!". I'm using Russian: A self-teaching guide. The closest it comes to gerunds is when it says that particples and gerunds are left to the last chapter of a textook. That's it. It breathes not a word other than that on gerunds. I finished the text book two months after "re-starting" russian. So...no moods or gerunds.

Russian doesn't have moods.

I thought imperative and subjunctive were moods.

Originally Posted by Orpheus

I thought imperative and subjunctive were moods.

Out of curiosity, what is the name of the textbook?

Russian: A self-teaching guide by Kathryn Szcezpanska...or something like that.

Russian doesn't have a subjunctive tense.
And I'm not sure if imperative counts as a mood. They never use the word 'mood' in Russian grammars.

Russian has aspect.

According to the dictionary there are four of them : indicative, imperative, interrogative and subjunctive. I would say that it's not a good idea to learn the Russian verbs and try to make them fit in one of the English verbs category since it's a different concept.

You might have to use a different textbook which will cover a bit more about the grammar and a few other things. How about The New Penguin, for example!

О сослагательном наклонении: http://bgti.esoo.ru/eng_u4/soslag_nak.htm

И ещё:

О.Ф. Кравченко
(Пятигорск, Россия)

"Проблемы перевода сослагательного наклонения с английского языка на русский язык

При переводе сослагательного наклонения на русский язык в ряде случаев возникают трудности. А именно:

а) Форма would + инфинитив, если она употреблена в простом предложении с подразумевающимся условием, переводится на русский язык глаголом в сослагательном наклонении.

Any interruption to oil supplies would be hugely damaging to the world economy. Любые перебои в поставках нефти нанесли бы огромный ущерб мировой экономике.

Однако, в тех случаях, когда описывается содержание какого-нибудь внесенного, но еще не принятого проекта, плана или предложения, в русском языке принято употребление будущего времени изъявительного наклонения.

It was recommended that a special report should be submitted. This report would give a detailed account of the activities of the committee and their views o­n the situation.
Рекомендуется представить специальный доклад. В этом докладе будет сделан подробный отчет о деятельности этой комиссии и представлена ее точка зрения по данному вопросу.

б) Трудность при переводе представляет также бессоюзное подчинение условных предложений с частичной или полной инверсией.
Had this policy been adopted, the subsequent history of the treaty might well have been quite different.
Если бы такая политика была принята, последующая судьба этого договора вполне могла бы быть совершенно другой.

Часто не учитывается стилистическая окраска, литературный стиль инвертированного предложения и предложение переводится также с бессоюзным подчинением, что в русском языке характерно как раз для разговорного стиля.
Had it been as easy as that, no special negotiations would have been necessary.
Если бы это было так просто, не понадобилось бы никаких специальных переговоров (литературный стиль). (Будь это так просто... - разговорный стиль.)

Условие может быть выражено не только полным придаточным предложением, но и другими способами, например: if + причастие, или сочетание предлогов given, provided и др. с существительным, или составной предлог but for +существительное.
But for their willingness to assist, this decision would never have been arrived at.
Если бы не их желание помочь, это решение так и не было бы принято.

в) Форма were + инфинитив употребляется в придаточных условия для обозначения маловероятного условия, относящегося к будущему времени (еще менее вероятного, чем форма, омонимичная Past Indefinite); переводится глаголом в сослагательном наклонении. В русском языке нет грамматических форм для передачи различных градаций маловероятности, и поэтому они передаются, где это нужно, лексически (словами если... вдруг/почему-нибудь/паче чаяния, обстоятельственными сочетаниями с предлогом при и др.).

Such a system is bound to be unpopular among most Europeans, and if the Federal party were to support it, they would undoubtedly weaken their chances in the forthcoming federal elections.
Такая система наверняка не будет пользоваться популярностью среди большинства европейцев и если Федеральная партия вдруг (почему-либо) стала бы ее поддерживать, она, несомненно, уменьшила бы свои шансы на победу на предстоящих выборах.

г) Придаточные предложения условия с формой should (для всех лиц) + инфинитив при переводе на русский язык обычно начинаются словами в случае если бы… . В английском языке такие предложения часто бывают инвертированными, с опущенным союзом.
The resolution, passed unanimously by the Council members o­n March 2nd, promises the «severest consequences» should Iraq again hinder the UN's arm inspectors.
Резолюция, единогласно принятая всеми членами Совета безопасности ООН, предупреждает о « самых серьезных последствиях» в случае, если Ирак вновь стал бы чинить препятствия работе инспекторов ООН по разоружению."

http://pn.pglu.ru/index.php?module=subj ... scope=page

Originally Posted by TATY

Russian doesn't have moods.

http://masterrussian.com/aa042700a.shtml

heh

Meh, in grammars they just call it 'Conditional'.

When I learnt Spanish, there was a Conditional tense, and also a Subjunctive tense, they were separate things.


As for the Imperative, I was not aware it was clasified as a Mood. I knew it wasn't a tense, I didn't know what it was. Now I know.


So is Я хочу, чтобы он пришёл a subjuntive construction???

Also on that link it says

Я бы пошёл в кино, если бы у меня был билет

But I'm sure I've seen it without the бы is the second clause. Is that incorrect?

Если у меня был билет, я бы пошёл в кино?
Is a бы required in the first part as well?

But to the person who asked the question. I'm sure you book covers the imperative and conditional, but does not use the word 'Mood' when referring to them.

Originally Posted by TATY

Meh, in grammars they just call it 'Conditional'.

When I learnt Spanish, there was a Conditional tense, and also a Subjunctive tense, they were separate things.


As for the Imperative, I was not aware it was clasified as a Mood. I knew it wasn't a tense, I didn't know what it was. Now I know.

I've only seen it referred to specifically as 'mood' in Russian in big weighty comprehensive grammars, not in teach-yourself textbooks.

How any given language is broken down for explanation, and therefore which terms are used, is entirely the choice of whoever is analysing it or writing the grammar to explain it, or whoever the target audience is. For example, English-language Japanese grammars tell us that a word's function in a sentence is expressed using small words called particles or post-positions, wheras if you read a Japanese grammar writen for speakers of an inflected language, these particles are simply treated as inflections.

All languages have 'mood'*, but different languages express it in different ways. Some languages express it with distinct verbal forms, others through word order, and so on. My guess would be, it just so happens that Russian mood is expressed using such disparate verbal forms that it makes little sense to treat 'mood' as a cohesive subject for teaching purposes.

*(The American Heritage® Dictionary defines 'mood' as: "A set of verb forms or inflections used to indicate the speaker's attitude toward the factuality or likelihood of the action or condition expressed")

Originally Posted by TATY

So is Я хочу, чтобы он пришёл a subjuntive construction???

Yes.

Originally Posted by TATY

Also on that link it says

Я бы пошёл в кино, если бы у меня был билет

But I'm sure I've seen it without the бы is the second clause. Is that incorrect?

Если у меня был билет, я бы пошёл в кино?
Is a бы required in the first part as well?

I think you need a бы in both clauses, unless you are talking about a future conditional, in which case it doesn't require бы at all - Если у меня будет билет, я пойду в кино.

But I'm sh*te at Russian, so don't quote me on that

Originally Posted by TATY

Meh, in grammars they just call it 'Conditional'.

When I learnt Spanish, there was a Conditional tense, and also a Subjunctive tense, they were separate things.

There is no conditional or subjunctive tense. In Russian you have past tense, present tense, and future tense. The conditional-subjunctive is a mood. The Spanish subjunctive, being a Romance language, I'm sure is different from the Russian subjunctive; but not so different that it would be a tense If it's like the Latin subjunctive, then the Spanish subjunctive would be a great deal more difficult than the Russian.

Originally Posted by TATY

But to the person who asked the question. I'm sure you book covers the imperative and conditional, but does not use the word 'Mood' when referring to them.

I don't think he has a very good textbook, then.

Originally Posted by TATY

Meh, in grammars they just call it 'Conditional'.

When I learnt Spanish, there was a Conditional tense, and also a Subjunctive tense, they were separate things.
....

Like challenger said, these are not tenses but moods. You may find only one tense in a mood, which might make think it is a tense, and as you may find up to eight tenses in a same mood, in French for instance.

Originally Posted by TATY

But to the person who asked the question. I'm sure you book covers the imperative and conditional, but does not use the word 'Mood' when referring to them.

I don't think he has a very good textbook, then.[/quote]

No

I have many different grammars and text books on Russian and none use the word "Mood".

So a text book teaches the student how to form and use the imperative perfectly. But it doesn't mention that imperative is a mood. That makes it bad?

Originally Posted by challenger

Originally Posted by TATY

But to the person who asked the question. I'm sure you book covers the imperative and conditional, but does not use the word 'Mood' when referring to them.

I don't think he has a very good textbook, then.

Originally Posted by TATY

No

I have many different grammars and text books on Russian and none use the word "Mood".

So a text book teaches the student how to form and use the imperative perfectly. But it doesn't mention that imperative is a mood. That makes it bad?

No worse than teaching "this is the nominative, etc." without using the word "case," I suppose. You don't *need* to know the terms to speak, necessarily, but not only can it avoid confusion (when I started Greek I sometimes asked myself things like, "Is this verb aorist or indicative?" ) but it is also just basic knowledge of how language is described. Chemistry textbooks could teach Avogadro's number without mentioning it was called Avogadro's number, but the name is good information to have. In any event, everything I've ever seen teaches the words.

The word 'case' is almost always used though, and almost none use the word 'mood'.

Originally Posted by TATY

The word 'case' is almost always used though, and almost none use the word 'mood'.

I'm not sure about that, but even if it's so, it makes little difference. The ideas behind teaching the terms "case" and "mood" are essentially equivalent.