A ...Major?... Problem

I'm trying to teach myself Russian from "The New Penguin Russian Course: A complete Guide for Beginners" that I got for my birthday...I've been at it constantly for over a week now.

Learning the alphabet was fairly easy for me (although according to what this book says, ё and я are pronounced the same... Oh, that and the fact that it says that щ is pronounced 'shsh'...???).

But that's not my main problem. I'm just having trouble absorbing the vocabulary/grammar. I remember almost nothing that I've read through about grammar, and I've even reread the chapter several times! Pretty much the only words I understand are я, да, нет, это, спасивбо, and вот, plus cognates, like такси.

Are there any tricks or something that I can try to help me absorb the material (better)? The grammar seems very intimidating, but I just assumed that because I spoke English as a first language, where grammar isn't so...carefully paid attention to. (But even grammar isn't that bad, since I understand it completely in German, but things like noun declension seem...difficult to learn, at least to me).

So, as a sort of summary, I guess, my problem is that I can read Russian fairly easily (albeit, rather slowly and very choppy; except for щ and ь), but I just don't understand it, even though I had read the meanings of the words, like, 5 minutes before. I'm really eager to learn Russian, but I'm just finding it rather difficult. :(

Patience. In time, you will pick up the the feel of what russian sounds like, and that greatly helps learning words. It's also said that the first 100 words you learn will be the hardest words you ever learn.

Russian grammar is very different than English grammar. It takes a while for a lot of it to sink in. Just keep persevering, and there will come a time when everything suddenly clicks and makes sense.

щ is just ш but pronounsed longer (hense the transcription of shsh)
ь palatizes a consonant. Try to immagine a short "y" after it.
ё and я are not pronounced the same. ё is pronounced as "yo" as in "yogurt" or "yo". Я is pronounced "ya" as in "yeah".

Удачи!

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Originally Posted by Chibi

Learning the alphabet was fairly easy for me (although according to what this book says, ё and я are pronounced the same... Oh, that and the fact that it says that щ is pronounced 'shsh'...???).

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ё is pronounced "yo" as in yo-yo (the toy) and it is always stressed
я is pronounced "ya" as in yaba-daba-doo (from the Flintstones)
щ is pronounced like "shch" as in swiss-cheeze

Here are some audio examples of Russian greetings.
http://masterrussian.com/blday_greeting.shtml

Hope this helps :D

Ah, thanks for the pronunciation corrections. ^_^;

Anyway...Yeah, I guess patience makes sense (...of course it does...). I'll try to get myself to be more patient -_-;

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Originally Posted by kwatts59

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Originally Posted by Chibi

Learning the alphabet was fairly easy for me (although according to what this book says, ё and я are pronounced the same... Oh, that and the fact that it says that щ is pronounced 'shsh'...???).

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ё is pronounced "yo" as in yo-yo (the toy) and it is always stressed
я is pronounced "ya" as in yaba-daba-doo (from the Flintstones)
щ is pronounced like "shch" as in swiss-cheeze

Here are some audio examples of Russian greetings.
http://masterrussian.com/blday_greeting.shtml

Hope this helps :D

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What about X .. Kwatts? .. can you give a example of that..

The Russian letter "X" is pronounced similar to the English letter "H".

Examples:
http://masterrussian.com/media/audio/bad.wav
плохо
plO-ha

http://masterrussian.com/media/audio/finethnx.wav
спасибо хорошо
spaceeba harashow

Actually, it isn't like an English H. Let me quote what I wrote in another thread.

HOW TO PROPERLY PRONOUNCE THE RUSSIAN Х
1) Place the back of your tongue like you were going to say an English "k", but don't.
2) Say the "k", but don't move your mouth after saying, and keep pushing air through the opening. You should hear a sound that sounds something like static.
3) Now repeat, except do not make the "k" sound before the proper sound..

This is known as a voiceless velar fricative.

damn, how complex it is... :(

I think I'm not that confused by it because of my experience with German and Dutch...I believe I read somewhere that it was pronounced similar to the 'ch' in German or that weird gagging sound in Dutch. (I think it's, like 'g' in Dutch or something...I dunno, I haven't studied it a lot).

The Russian "X" is close to the German "ch" in Bach. Of course, if you don't know how to pronounce Bach as the Germans would, then this doesn't really do you any good.

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Originally Posted by lctp72

The Russian "X" is close to the German "ch" in Bach. Of course, if you don't know how to pronounce Bach as the Germans would, then this doesn't really do you any good.

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An easier way to think of it for people who have no idea would be close to "h" in "loch".

A very simple course, possibly with an audio section, might help you. I started out with new penguin Russian course and was stuggling with learning new words and with grammar and pronunciation, so I bought BBC Talk Russian, with a CD. I completed Talk Russian, and once I went back to the New PEnguin book I found it a lot easier. I'm not very far along with Russian either. I started a couple of months ago but have been able to spend very little time on it.

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Originally Posted by lctp72

The Russian "X" is close to the German "ch" in Bach. Of course, if you don't know how to pronounce Bach as the Germans would, then this doesn't really do you any good.

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Heh. I always thought of it as a hissing sound...maybe that's just me...

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Originally Posted by lctp72

The Russian "X" is close to the German "ch" in Bach. Of course, if you don't know how to pronounce Bach as the Germans would, then this doesn't really do you any good.

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Exactly... i never heard the German pronunciation of Bach.. to me in the U.S. Bach has a "K" sound...

To me x sounds a lot like someone hawking up some phlegm.

The German letter ch, when preceded by a, au, o, sounds like the Spanish letter j, it's an r pronounced from the throat. The Russian letter x sounds like a k you try to pronounce but only with the air coming out of your throat.

For Americans, the most familiar to Russian 'x' sound would probably be 'j' as in 'jalapen~o'.

To me it sounds like the kh, in arabic, I think it may be the closest one may get, unless youre russian, Hope that helps!

People like to say that X is pronounced as ch in ich. However, i feel i should note that according to my chinese textbook, x in hanyu pinyin is pronounced as ch in ich. The two sounds are incredibly different.
Moral of the story is, if you want to know how something sounds, use IPA.

And interestingly enough, the IPA for х is [x]. Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Chibi

I'm trying to teach myself Russian from "The New Penguin Russian Course: A complete Guide for Beginners" that I got for my birthday...I've been at it constantly for over a week now.

Learning the alphabet was fairly easy for me (although according to what this book says, ё and я are pronounced the same... Oh, that and the fact that it says that щ is pronounced 'shsh'...???).

But that's not my main problem. I'm just having trouble absorbing the vocabulary/grammar. I remember almost nothing that I've read through about grammar, and I've even reread the chapter several times! Pretty much the only words I understand are я, да, нет, это, спасивбо, and вот, plus cognates, like такси.

Are there any tricks or something that I can try to help me absorb the material (better)? The grammar seems very intimidating, but I just assumed that because I spoke English as a first language, where grammar isn't so...carefully paid attention to. (But even grammar isn't that bad, since I understand it completely in German, but things like noun declension seem...difficult to learn, at least to me).

So, as a sort of summary, I guess, my problem is that I can read Russian fairly easily (albeit, rather slowly and very choppy; except for щ and ь), but I just don't understand it, even though I had read the meanings of the words, like, 5 minutes before. I'm really eager to learn Russian, but I'm just finding it rather difficult. :(

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I have struggled with the New Penguin book as well. Everyone raves about it, but it is just extremely difficult for me to retain vocabulary in the context in which a dry grammar course such as that provides.

I am having the most fun right now with my Russian study through Pimsleur audio tapes, and a couple of Russian phrase books and dictionaries where I can pick and choose words and phrases that I know I will use in ordinary conversation. Studying Russian has become fun for me again through this process. I actually remember the stuff that I study!

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Originally Posted by JKDMan

[
I have struggled with the New Penguin book as well. Everyone raves about it, but it is just extremely difficult for me to retain vocabulary in the context in which a dry grammar course such as that provides.

I am having the most fun right now with my Russian study through Pimsleur audio tapes, and a couple of Russian phrase books and dictionaries where I can pick and choose words and phrases that I know I will use in ordinary conversation. Studying Russian has become fun for me again through this process. I actually remember the stuff that I study!

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This is why I believe that it is good to start out learning with Pimsleur, then after you are are well along in the course add the New Penguin. You will find that the Pimsleur will put you quickly to about the 6th chapter and the New Penguin will help you hear and make sense of the word endings and grammar in Pimsleur.

You sound like you learn vocab better with your ears. Try to find CD's with more vocab on them after you have finished Pimsleur but definately stay with the New Penguin. Read the comprehension exercises several times and the new vocab in each lesson will stick better.. before moving on to the next chapter.

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Originally Posted by DDT

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Originally Posted by JKDMan

[
I have struggled with the New Penguin book as well. Everyone raves about it, but it is just extremely difficult for me to retain vocabulary in the context in which a dry grammar course such as that provides.

I am having the most fun right now with my Russian study through Pimsleur audio tapes, and a couple of Russian phrase books and dictionaries where I can pick and choose words and phrases that I know I will use in ordinary conversation. Studying Russian has become fun for me again through this process. I actually remember the stuff that I study!

---

This is why I believe that it is good to start out learning with Pimsleur, then after you are are well along in the course add the New Penguin. You will find that the Pimsleur will put you quickly to about the 6th chapter and the New Penguin will help you hear and make sense of the word endings and grammar in Pimsleur.

You sound like you learn vocab better with your ears. Try to find CD's with more vocab on them after you have finished Pimsleur but definately stay with the New Penguin. Read the comprehension exercises several times and the new vocab in each lesson will stick better.. before moving on to the next chapter.

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Thanks for the advice! I definitely think I am more audio-inclined. I want to be able to speak/understand Russian much more than I want to read/write at this point.

I have wondered what audio to use after Pimsleur, but given that I am only on Pimsleur level 1, I won't need to worry about that for awhile! I have read here that Rosetta Stone is good for vocabulary building.

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

People like to say that X is pronounced as ch in ich. However, i feel i should note that according to my chinese textbook, x in hanyu pinyin is pronounced as ch in ich. The two sounds are incredibly different.
Moral of the story is, if you want to know how something sounds, use IPA.

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You're getting confused, BlackMage. Russian X is similar to German CH in Bach, auch, Spanish J in junta, Juan, Chinese H, not X (as H in HANYU, not as X in XIEXIE) and Scottish ch in "Loch". German CH in ICH is too soft, palatalised. Russian palatalized X is similar to German CH in CH but doesn't have this SH' sound - химия, хитрый, X is palatalized (soft) in these words.

Russian "ах!" is pronounced exactly as German "ach!" (and means the same thing, something like "oh!", "wow!", "ouch!").

The Chinese pinyin H is better described with the Russian X than with the English H (it has some friction).

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"Teach Yourself Russian", "Teach Yourself Beginners' Russian", "Colloquial Russian" come with CD's or tapes. I looked through them and as a native speaker, I would recommend those. All of them are similar in level.

"Teach Yourself Beginners' Russian" is the easiest to start with. In my opinion, Pimsleur is very poor in vocabulary but might be a good start if you need a constant guidance or if you can only learn when you drive :) I, personally don't like the series and they are too expensive.

If you have trouble using these textbooks, you need a teacher to get you started. You may have more difficulty towards the middle of each of them. Textbooks are not the medium - you need 2-way dictionaries a good grammar book, not sure which, maybe someone else will post.

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Originally Posted by JKDMan

I want to be able to speak/understand Russian much more than I want to read/write at this point.

I have wondered what audio to use after Pimsleur, but given that I am only on Pimsleur level 1, I won't need to worry about that for awhile! I have read here that Rosetta Stone is good for vocabulary building.

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IT's not likely that you will be able to speak and undestand a lot of Russian until you learn to write and read Russian, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Darobat

Actually, it isn't like an English H. Let me quote what I wrote in another thread.

HOW TO PROPERLY PRONOUNCE THE RUSSIAN Х
1) Place the back of your tongue like you were going to say an English "k", but don't.
2) Say the "k", but don't move your mouth after saying, and keep pushing air through the opening. You should hear a sound that sounds something like static.
3) Now repeat, except do not make the "k" sound before the proper sound..

This is known as a voiceless velar fricative.

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I'm sorry, but when I try to do this when pronouncing an actual word (I'm going from x to a, like in the plo-'ha), I get a wet sort of rippled/trilled noise. It's a bit throaty. I don't hear that in the sound clip. Is it possible that anyone can diagnose me? (Am I doing something wrong? Do you know what it is? Is this a natural result of the transition to a? Is it acceptable? etc.)

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Originally Posted by oatmealia

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Originally Posted by Darobat

Actually, it isn't like an English H. Let me quote what I wrote in another thread.

HOW TO PROPERLY PRONOUNCE THE RUSSIAN Х
1) Place the back of your tongue like you were going to say an English "k", but don't.
2) Say the "k", but don't move your mouth after saying, and keep pushing air through the opening. You should hear a sound that sounds something like static.
3) Now repeat, except do not make the "k" sound before the proper sound..

This is known as a voiceless velar fricative.

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I'm sorry, but when I try to do this when pronouncing an actual word (I'm going from x to a, like in the plo-'ha), I get a wet sort of rippled/trilled noise. It's a bit throaty. I don't hear that in the sound clip. Is it possible that anyone can diagnose me? (Am I doing something wrong? Do you know what it is? Is this a natural result of the transition to a? Is it acceptable? etc.)

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Have you listened to sound recordings yet? If yes, and it didn't help you need a teacher/native speaker to help you. Note that having an accent doesn't mean, you won't be understood. Anything between English H and K is close enough, it's rather H with some friction. As I mentioned somewhere else Spanish J, German CH are the same. If you are in the US and can't get hold of a Russian get a Spanish/Latin American person tell you "Juan".

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Originally Posted by Darobat

Actually, it isn't like an English H. Let me quote what I wrote in another thread.

HOW TO PROPERLY PRONOUNCE THE RUSSIAN Х
1) Place the back of your tongue like you were going to say an English "k", but don't.
2) Say the "k", but don't move your mouth after saying, and keep pushing air through the opening. You should hear a sound that sounds something like static.
3) Now repeat, except do not make the "k" sound before the proper sound..

This is known as a voiceless velar fricative.

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Wow, I've been pronouncing my differently. I've been keeping my tongue flat, not at the roof my of mouth like a k, and I would make like a staticy H sound, which I'm assuming could contribute to my accent sounding so american.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darobat

Actually, it isn't like an English H. Let me quote what I wrote in another thread.

HOW TO PROPERLY PRONOUNCE THE RUSSIAN Х
1) Place the back of your tongue like you were going to say an English "k", but don't.
2) Say the "k", but don't move your mouth after saying, and keep pushing air through the opening. You should hear a sound that sounds something like static.
3) Now repeat, except do not make the "k" sound before the proper sound..

This is known as a voiceless velar fricative.

---

Wow, I've been pronouncing my differently. I've been keeping my tongue flat, not at the roof my of mouth like a k, and I would make like a staticy H sound, which I'm assuming could contribute to my accent sounding so american.

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Originally Posted by Chibi

I'm trying to teach myself Russian from "The New Penguin Russian Course: A complete Guide for Beginners" that I got for my birthday...I've been at it constantly for over a week now.

Learning the alphabet was fairly easy for me (although according to what this book says, ё and я are pronounced the same... Oh, that and the fact that it says that щ is pronounced 'shsh'...???).

But that's not my main problem. I'm just having trouble absorbing the vocabulary/grammar. I remember almost nothing that I've read through about grammar, and I've even reread the chapter several times! Pretty much the only words I understand are я, да, нет, это, спасивбо, and вот, plus cognates, like такси.

Are there any tricks or something that I can try to help me absorb the material (better)? The grammar seems very intimidating, but I just assumed that because I spoke English as a first language, where grammar isn't so...carefully paid attention to. (But even grammar isn't that bad, since I understand it completely in German, but things like noun declension seem...difficult to learn, at least to me).

So, as a sort of summary, I guess, my problem is that I can read Russian fairly easily (albeit, rather slowly and very choppy; except for щ and ь), but I just don't understand it, even though I had read the meanings of the words, like, 5 minutes before. I'm really eager to learn Russian, but I'm just finding it rather difficult. :(

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I had a very similar problem. I came to russian from latin, and what I did was I would try to relate the russian cases and their uses to the one's in latin. That's not so much a big foundation on absorbing the material, just spend a few days on a case and then move on. Make sure you know how it's used and all. Also, if I can explain this well enough, try to picturize or imagine how that ending designates it's meaning in the context. It's not easy for everyone to do this, but it really seems to help me when I'm speaking russian and I'm picturizing what I'm trying to say in my head and all. I do the same with latin. One thing I do as a mistake, is that the plural dative case ending -ам/ям is the same as the singular feminine accusative, so sometimes I'll mistake the accusative of something for a dative. If this whole picturization thing is confusing to you, or not appealing, there's other ways, but I fancy this one the most.

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the first 100 words you learn will be the hardest words you ever learn.

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Do you mean the first words you learn as a baby? Or in a foreign language?

I know thousands of Russian words and cannot speak even a simple sentence.

Which just goes to show, don't think for one moment that it will just come to you if you keep trying.... people who give advice like that, just ASSUME that you have come kind of common sense.

Alas, I don't have any...it appears. Not that I've given up, mind you, but it does take direction. Requires effort. Homework. Actual study. Learning from experts.

My mistake was I just kept watching Channel One, and looking up words in the dictionary. Damn those 3 wasted years. I'm not even a beginner.

Geez.

sigh.

I feel better.

If someday this starts clicking, its going to be like a dam breaking or a nuclear bomb going off.

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Originally Posted by Superman

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the first 100 words you learn will be the hardest words you ever learn.

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Do you mean the first words you learn as a baby? Or in a foreign language?

I know thousands of Russian words and cannot speak even a simple sentence.

Which just goes to show, don't think for one moment that it will just come to you if you keep trying.... people who give advice like that, just ASSUME that you have come kind of common sense.

Alas, I don't have any...it appears. Not that I've given up, mind you, but it does take direction. Requires effort. Homework. Actual study. Learning from experts.

My mistake was I just kept watching Channel One, and looking up words in the dictionary. Damn those 3 wasted years. I'm not even a beginner.

Geez.

sigh.

I feel better.

If someday this starts clicking, its going to be like a dam breaking or a nuclear bomb going off.

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Channel 3? What do you mean, they have russian news on channel 3?! Wow. Yeah, you need to do more than work with a dictionary and watch TV. You need to speak it, write it, and read it as well.