Are Т, Д, Л and Н dental or alveolar?

Hi,

As a native speaker of Portuguese I am used to producing these sounds as dental, but after a little study on phonetics I realized they are alveolar in most languages. So I assumed they would be alveolar in Russian as well.

But I have been listening to the Pimsleur lessons and I noticed that I can only reproduce the exact sounds of ть and дь in the dental position (OK, maybe not the exact sounds). I am not able to tell the position of the other sounds because dental and alveolar consonant are not that different, but I am really curious about that because I want to do my best to have a proper pronunciation.

So maybe they are actually dental, and not alveolar as I have thought? Or some of them are dental and some alveolar? Or they are all alveolar anyway?

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Originally Posted by Ngm

Hi,

As a native speaker of Portuguese I am used to producing these sounds as dental, but after a little study on phonetics I realized they are alveolar in most languages. So I assumed they would be alveolar in Russian as well.

But I have been listening to the Pimsleur lessons and I noticed that I can only reproduce the exact sounds of ть and дь in the dental position (OK, maybe not the exact sounds). I am not able to tell the position of the other sounds because dental and alveolar consonant are not that different, but I am really curious about that because I want to do my best to have a proper pronunciation.

So maybe they are actually dental, and not alveolar as I have thought? Or some of them are dental and some alveolar? Or they are all alveolar anyway?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_phonology

states that non-palatalized t and d are dental, but palatalized are alveolar.
http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/Dummies ... -4194.html

They are dental in Russian. I heard people speak portuguese, especially Brasilian, and I noticed that their consonants are much more like Russian ones. In this respect it is closer to Russian than many other european languages. "L", for example, there sounds like normal Russian Л, and not ЛЬ.

Thanks Propp! You helped a lot. But those links vox05 showed state that the palatalized consonants are laminal alveolar. Do you think I should not trust them?

Let me ask one more question. You said that Л sounds like the portuguese L, but our L does not really sound like an L when it is after a vowel. When I speak that sound, my tongue does not move toward the upper teeth. It only does so when it happens before a vowel. When it is after, it sounds more like "AU" "АУ". In fact, there are some words pronounced exactly the same because of this, like "mau" and "mal"(wich means "bad" and "badly"). So, when Russians pronounce the Л after a vowel, do they raise their tongue or not?

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Originally Posted by Ngm

So, when Russians pronounce the Л after a vowel, do they raise their tongue or not?

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Yes, they do. When I was a little boy I prononced hard L like you. It takes me some years to understand right way to prononce hard L.
If you prononce short U(У) instead of hard L(Л) it sounds like Polish accent (Ł).

Russian hard L must sounds clear esspesially before a vowel.

Ст́́ол – I think in this position it is possible to prononce Л not so clear.
На стол́́е – here Л must be clear

I don't agree with Wowik... I think russian hart L is always equal. Maybe it depends on the peculiarity of one's unclear articulation.

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Originally Posted by Оля

I don't agree with Wowik... I think russian hart L is always equal. Maybe it depends on the peculiarity of one's unclear articulation.

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Ну я честно потренировался – в слове столы Л звучит с напряжение, а в слове стол – немного спокойней. Но, разумеется, ни о каком У там речи нет.

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Originally Posted by Оля

I don't agree with Wowik... I think the Russian hard L is always the same. Maybe it depends on the peculiarity of one's unclear articulation.

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From what I hear and what I've read, hard Л is pronounced the same regardless of wether it follows or preceeds a hard vowel.

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Originally Posted by TATY

From what I hear and what I've read, hard Л is pronounced the same regardless of wether it follows or preceeds a hard vowel.

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TATY,
glad to see you :)

Thanks everyone for your help!

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Originally Posted by Indra

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TATY

From what I hear and what I've read, hard Л is pronounced the same regardless of wether it follows or preceeds a hard vowel.

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TATY,
glad to see you :)

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+1! :D
Татушкин, ты вернулся? Поделись впечатлениями!

hello everyone, I am new to the forum.

I have been studying Russian for about 3 months now with a native speaking friend, and so far the grammar has been much easier for me than the pronunciation.

Like the previous posters I have probelems with the soft л, really just at the ends of words. This is epecially difficult for an american speaker of english because most of use to not palatize any consonants.

Should the tip of my tounge touch the alveolar ridge, or should the middle of the tongue?

I really like learning this language, but am becoming frustrated. It seems that pronunciation is MUCH more critical in Russian than english? Also my teacher wants me to pronounce things without an accent even though she pronounces the english words with a russian accent, which seems like a double standard to me, lol.

Thanks for the help.

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Originally Posted by 8250

I really like learning this language, but am becoming frustrated. It seems that pronunciation is MUCH more critical in Russian than english? Also my teacher wants me to pronounce things without an accent even though she pronounces the english words with a russian accent, which seems like a double standard to me, lol.

Thanks for the help.

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Я думаю, что английское произношение более важное, чем русское, потому что в английском языке есть много слов, которые звучат почти одинаково. Когда я говорю с иностранцами, то что больше всего мне мешает в понимании, это когда они не могут произносить правильно гласные и т.д... К примеру, в речи многих иностранцев трудно отличать между "piss", "peace", "pass"....

Во всяком случае, твоя учительница просто хочет уменьшить влияние английского произношения на твой русский акцент. Это хорошо!

basurero, i agree with you somewhat.

Its just hard to think about where to place your tongue when you want to speak. Of course it comes with practice. For me it has taken nearly 2 months to hear the difference between soft and hard consonants. For us the audible difference is in the pitch.

My teacher also tells me consonant sounds are more important in Russian as opposed to the vowels sounds in English.

When I listen to a non-native speaker speak english, the understanding will come from the order of the words and the conjugation of verbs, and less from pronunciation though. This is why I say it is less important.

For hard and soft Л the tip of the tongue should be touching the back of the upper front teeth. But for soft Л the whole tongue is higher in the mouth, so that also part of the tongue behind the tip touches the alveolar ridge (and the tip may even not touch the teeth), and the sides of the back of the tongue touch the insides of the upper back teeth.

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Originally Posted by 8250

Should the tip of my tounge touch the alveolar ridge, or should the middle of the tongue?

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I think the tip. But you also can try to put the tip of your tounge between teeth. The most important thing is to tense muscles of the tounge.