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Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Can someone please tell me if I'm pronouncing these words correctly? The different variations of the sounds yeh, eh and whether or not oy appears are throwing me off.
комнатные - KOM nuht nih eh
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx7.mp3
высокий - vis OH kee
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx8.mp3
пересечение - peres chYEH nee eh
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx3.mp3
выступление - vihs too plYEH nee eh
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx5.mp3
Is the e at the end of some of words ever pronounced with a yeh sound even though it 's not stressed?
Thank you.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
Can someone please tell me if I'm pronouncing these words correctly?
Well, we don't actually hear how you pronounce them. Could you record your voice? ) Then it will be easier to say what is to be changed and how you can change it to "sound" better.
http://sayandpost.com/ (it's the programme many forum members used for it, but you can use any others, it doesn't matter :-))
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Heh, well I suppose pronounce wasn't a good word to use there. What I mean is...logically transliterate. As in do the cyrillic words match the English written sounds in real life, or come close?
I've spent about 30 minutes messing around with Say n Post, pretty neat little program. It doesn't allow me to upload the sound file though! :? I've set exceptions in my firewall, then tried it disabled, uninstalled say n speak, rebooted, reinstalled a few times with variation and nothing seeming to work. I just get an error pop up. I'll see if there's anything else out there that will do the job.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
The back of your tongue must lay more backward when pronouncing ы and your ль are too soft but apart from this you're doing good.
Just kidding. How do you expect people to comment on your pronounciation if they can't hear it? The sounds of English are very different from those of Russian, there is no way you can come close to Russian sounds with phonetical transcription in English.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
Heh, well I suppose pronounce wasn't a good word to use there. What I mean is...logically transliterate. As in do the cyrillic words match the English written sounds in real life, or come close?
Cyrillic is an aplhabet -
"Нүүр хуудас
Чөлөөт нэвтэрхий толь, Википедиагаас" ( Mongolian wikipedia)
So pronunciation of words written in cyrillic depends on language.
Written sounds are written using IPA
[komnətnɨjɪ] (комнатные)
It's hard to say what's the difference between 'nuht' and 'nut'.
Quote:
Is the e at the end of some of words ever pronounced with a yeh sound even though it 's not stressed?
No, and not 'even though' but 'right because': not stressed - reduced to [ɪ]
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
do the cyrillic words match the English written sounds in real life, or come close?
Russian words are pronounced using Russian sounds, not English ones.
As far as I know
English [p] is neither Russian [п], nor [п’]
English [t] is neither Russian [т], nor [т’]
English [h] is neither Russian [х], nor [х’]
And it's not the whole list. ))
It seems that many people who have no problems with English , cannot pronounce Russian [ы] properly (I don't mean they will never be able to do this, practice makes perfect)). It wouldn't be so if it was the same sound.
So even if you use Latin characters in transcription, you should try to pronounce Russian sounds.
В этом месте должна появиться Лампада, которая найдет песни со словами "комнатные", "высокий" и т. д. ))
P. S. Sorry for my English.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Alright, I found a newer version of Say and Post that works so sound files are in the original post of this thread. I'll not say they're accurate sounding, but my only language interaction is the occasional Youtube video and then with a Belorussian family once in a while with, as they put it, a country way of speaking. I'm also well aware that Cyrillic is only an alphabet. Since this is a Russian study forum, I assumed the language I was referring to would be clear.
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No, and not 'even though' but 'right because': not stressed - reduced to [ɪ]
That clears up some. Right because is an British English adverb clause? It's not something used in the U.S. and I'm not familiar with IPA past knowing what it is. It's not taught over here and probably not too hard to learn but any Russian language book over this way will have English spelled sounds to represent Russian syllables.
The biggest problem I'm finding with trying to reproduce "Russian sounds" is that from one book to another, they at least vary and at times are frustratingly different. A Charles Berlitz book I have instructs бальшое as in бальшое спасибо is pronounced "bahl-SHOY-yeh but I find nothing in that word to give an oy sound like in boy and the last letter е is not stressed. This and a few other words I've seen were the reason for asking about the 'yeh' sound above. Another weird example I've seen instructs ha-ra-SHO versus kha-ra-SHO. I don't expect fluency over the internet or just by book but I'd like to not learn the base of something totally wrong.
что/кто ето Лампада?
Thanks again.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
Can someone please tell me if I'm pronouncing these words correctly? The different variations of the sounds yeh, eh and whether or not oy appears are throwing me off.
комнатные - KOM nuht nih eh
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx7.mp3
What i hear - кОмнатьЕ ( with two perceived stresses )
пересечение instead.
пэрс-чени ( it is in orwx1a8yx6.mp3 actually)
First of all, it is misspelled - пересЕчеНие.
it should be [pʲɪrʲɪsʲɪʨɛnʲɪɛ]
The best of all three, but i hear 'и' instead of 'ы' , and 'л' is probably not palatalized, and 'т' is not dental. The -ие ending is better than of other 2 samples.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
кОмнатные -- высОкий -- пересечЕнии -- выступлЕние
(capital letters mean a stress)
ie-ee.mp3
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
That clears up some. Right because is an British English adverb clause?
If you are in doublt, it's probably English screwed up by me.
Quote:
. It's not taught over here and probably not too hard to learn but any Russian language book over this way will have English spelled sounds to represent Russian syllables.
It's bad. If English language book here was writing pronunciation in Russian letters it would be thrown to garbage.
Quote:
The biggest problem I'm finding with trying to reproduce "Russian sounds" is that from one book to another, they at least vary and at times are frustratingly different. A Charles Berlitz book I have instructs бальшое as in бальшое спасибо is pronounced "bahl-SHOY-yeh but I find nothing in that word to give an oy sound like in boy and the last letter е is not stressed. This and a few other words I've seen were the reason for asking about the 'yeh' sound above.
In real life [j] indeed is not pronounced. If you sit someoune in front of a microphone and ask him to record this word as a sound sample - you will hear [j]. The same with patronymics - "иван ваныч" with '-ович' becoming 'ыч'.
Quote:
Another weird example I've seen instructs ha-ra-SHO versus kha-ra-SHO. I don't expect fluency over the internet or just by book but I'd like to not learn the base of something totally wrong.
With 'kh' they try to emulate (IPA) [x] sound, (what in the lamest book referred as 'as ch in 'loch'' ) and those with 'ha-ra-SHO' think it will pass without 'kh' and no one will note the difference.
Luckily first sounds that are not subject to gender modifications are in basic (masculine) form on wiktionary, with sound samples that in general doesn't suck.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
but any Russian language book over this way will have English spelled sounds to represent Russian syllables
You know, we also have books for those who learn English, where Russian letters are used instead of "normal" English transcription signs (and no tipps about what are the differences between Russian and English sounds, no clues about how to pronounce English ones), but these books are, eh, not good. In "serious" books it's put in another way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
If English language book here was writing pronunciation in Russian letters it would be thrown to garbage.
Yep.
Я не сразу заметила твой ответ. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
Кто это — Лампада? or Кто такая Лампада? / Что такое Лампада? (there are also other ways of asking it, of course, it's just my choice; "это" should be written with "э", on the English standard layout we have ' and " on that button)
Lampada is a forum member. Sometimes when anyone asks how to pronounce a word, she posts songs with this word. ) You can try to find some songs with your words yourself, if you want. ) Here is our Music, Songs, Lyrics forum:
http://masterrussian.net/mforum/viewforum.php?f=61
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
The biggest problem I'm finding with trying to reproduce "Russian sounds" is that from one book to another, they at least vary and at times are frustratingly different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
I don't expect fluency over the internet or just by book but I'd like to not learn the base of something totally wrong.
Good approach! :) But if you don't have a teacher it seems that the only way out is to listen to Russian texts as much as possible, and to try to remember how native speakers say (I mean all types of the texts - audiocourses, TV, films, songs, radio, you can also listen to real people))), if there are no natives around, at least to try to speak with someone on the Internet) and to ask for help those who knows the language. Unfortunately I don't know any "speaking" Russian dictionaries, where not only words but some sentences too would be read by native speakers. Actually, in my dictionary this feature is not available even for Russian words (but I don't care, I don't learn Russian))).
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
I fixed the spelling and sound mismatches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
With 'kh' they try to emulate (IPA) [x] sound, (what in the lamest book referred as 'as ch in 'loch'' ) and those with 'ha-ra-SHO' think it will pass without 'kh' and no one will note the difference.
The "loch" sound reference is what I see very often. How does this sound?
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx10.mp3
A балшое too.
http://sayandpost.com/orwx1a8yx9.mp3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Звездочёт
кОмнатные -- высОкий -- пересечЕнии -- выступлЕние
(capital letters mean a stress)
ie-ee.mp3
Very helpful, thank you for that. In your пересечЕнии, your п is very soft and to my ears it barely sounds like the word starts on the р. In выступлЕние, I hear a bit of a [j] on the end. Are these generally normal sounds for those letters?
I do watch some video interviews and listen to some songs with Russian speaking "stars" and if they're not native Russian, they're Ukrainian who grew up with Russian. I'm definitely interested in more music though.
Is the IPA system a pretty standard method for learning foreign languages in Europe? I've studied French for 6 years in school and University along with some classes on Spanish and Italian and not once have I ever seen IPA used. I wonder if that contributes to why Americans seem to have a more difficult time with other languages than Europeans. (Yes, a gross generalization but not wholly inaccurate!)
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
What i hear - кОмнатьЕ ( with two perceived stresses )
пэрс-чени ( it is in orwx1a8yx6.mp3 actually)
First of all, it is misspelled - пересЕчеНие.
it should be [pʲɪrʲɪsʲɪʨɛnʲɪɛ]
The best of all three, but i hear 'и' instead of 'ы' , and 'л' is probably not palatalized, and 'т' is not dental. The -ие ending is better than of other 2 samples.
1. Well, I hear something like [н’] in in the end of the word, [н] should be harder.
2. -
3. Yes, the first consonant should be softer. [ч] should be softer too, I think.
4. I also hear "виступлэние" instead of "выступление." And I have the same opinion about the ending. :-)
Quote:
б[s:3jyruxow]ал[/s:3jyruxow]шое
There is no such word in Russian. It's spelled "большое" (mind the soft sign!).
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
Is the IPA system a pretty standard method for learning foreign languages in Europe?
Aucune idée. :-D (frankly speaking, I don't know French and don't know if I used the phrase right, I meant that I have no idea)
But In this topic is written that in Russian schools some new system is used now (they are speaking about English lessons). I don't know if it's IPA though.
Quote:
в школе требуют писать только знаки современной международной транскрипции
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anastasia
Я даю старые и новые символы через знак равенства, так как у многих старые словари. Но предупреждаю, что в дальнейшем буду использовать современные символы. Единственный символ, который постоянно все забывают почему-то - это новое обозначение краткого звука o - эта палочка слева смущает каждого второго, поэтому если на доске пишу, то довольно долго приходится напоминать, что это, если с группой работаю. А так не припомню никого, кто бы знаки транскрипции не осилил :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
I've studied French for 6 years in school and University along with some classes on Spanish and Italian and not once have I ever seen IPA used.
Can I ask you where are you from? :-) You can write it in this topic if you want. )
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
In your пересечЕнии, your п is very soft and to my ears it barely sounds like the word starts on the р.
It depends on a “surroundings” of a letter. Do not forget, some Russian vowel sounds are compound: я = й + а, е = й + э, ё = й + о, ю = й + у, и = й + ы. If the next letter is я, е, ё, ю or и, a consonant is softer.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWNJ
Good. Maybe a bit fast in the beginning, but nothing wrong.
'л' is not palatalized. See ru.wiktionary for 'большой' arcticle to hear the difference.
Also толкать/только on the same ru.wiktionary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Звездочёт
Very helpful, thank you for that. In your пересечЕнии, your п is very soft and to my ears it barely sounds like the word starts on the р. In выступлЕние, I hear a bit of a [j] on the end. Are these generally normal sounds for those letters?
It's another difference - in Russian, 'p' in the beginning is not aspirated. Maybe it in perceived in this way.
Quote:
Is the IPA system a pretty standard method for learning foreign languages in Europe? I've studied French for 6 years in school and University along with some classes on Spanish and Italian and not once have I ever seen IPA used. I wonder if that contributes to why Americans seem to have a more difficult time with other languages than Europeans. (Yes, a gross generalization but not wholly inaccurate!)
[/quote]
With live teacher it's not that important. But if you need to consult dictionary/forums to find pronunciation, you some unambigous system not tied to each language's pronunciation ('ch in loch', yes). Another idea is that they do not care much about pronunciation at all, give vast amount of dialects in that languages.
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Re: Word Endings in ие, ые, ии and ий
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
...На этом месте должна появиться Лампада, которая найдет песни со словами "комнатные", "высокий" и т. д. )) ...
:ache:
Слов выступление, вступление, наступление, отступление или преступление пока нет в наших песнях.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8_p2v4cDyE
А на пересечении двух дорог
А я стою, как тополь на ветру,
А я в который раз опять не смог,
Проиграл последнюю игру...
А я наверно не такой как все,
А там, где надо плакать, я смеюсь,
А я иду по встречной полосе...
Не прошу, не верю, не боюсь!
Не прошу, не верю, не боюсь!
Никого ни в чём я не виню,
Никого мне не за что прощать!
Знаю, ничего не изменю,
Так не буду даром обещать!
Никакого смысла больше нет
Ждать, когда опять придёт беда,
А я в один конец возьму билет,
Улечу отсюда навсегда!
Улечу отсюда навсегда!
Где-то в глубине моей души
Догорают искорки огня...
А ты меня обида не души!
Просто нет здесь места для меня!
Просто нет здесь места для меня!
Просто нет здесь места для меня!
____________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8ScNQYMkVI
Кто за чем бежит
На дистанции — четвёрка первачей,
Каждый думает, что он-то побойчей,
Каждый думает, что меньше всех устал,
Каждый хочет на высокий пьедестал.
Кто-то кровью холодней, кто — горячей,
Все наслушались напутственных речей,
Каждый съел примерно поровну харчей,
Но судья не зафиксирует ничьей.
А борьба на всём пути —
В общем, равная почти.
"Э-э! Расскажите, как идут,
бога ради, а?" —
"Не мешайте! Телевиденье тут
вместе с радио!
Да нет особых новостей —
всё равнёхонько,
Но зато накал страстей —
о-хо-хо какой!"
Номер первый рвёт подмётки как герой,
Как под гору катит, хочет под горой
Он в победном ореоле и в пылу
Твёрдой поступью приблизиться к котлу.
А, почему высоких мыслей не имел?
Да потому что в детстве мало каши ел,
Ага, голодал он в этом детстве, не дерзал,
Он, вон, успевал переодеться — и в спортзал.
Ну что ж, идеи нам близки —
первым лучшие куски,
А вторым — чего уж тут,
он всё выверил —
В утешение дадут
кости с ливером.
Номер два далёк от плотских тех утех,
Он из сытых, он из этих, он из тех.
Он надеется на славу, на успех —
И уж ноги задирает выше всех.
Ох, наклон на вираже — бетон у щёк!
Краше некуда уже, а он — ещё!
Он стратег, он даже тактик — словом, спец;
У него сила, воля плюс характер — молодец!
Он чёток, собран, напряжён
И не лезет на рожон!
Этот будет выступать
на Салониках,
И детишков поучать
в кинохрониках,
И соперничать с Пеле
в закалённости,
И являть пример целе-
устремлённости!
Номер третий убелён и умудрён,
Он всегда — второй, надёжный эшелон.
Вероятно, кто-то в первом заболел,
Ну а может, его тренер пожалел.
И назойливо в ушах звенит струна:
У тебя последний шанс, эх, старина!
Он в азарте, как мальчишка, как шпана,
Нужен спурт — иначе крышка и хана:
Переходит сразу он
В задний старенький вагон,
Где былые имена —
предынфарктные,
Где местам одна цена —
все плацкартные.
А четвёртый — тот, что крайний, боковой, —
Так бежит — ни для чего, ни для кого:
То приблизится — мол пятки оттопчу,
То отстанет, постоит — мол так хочу.
Не проглотит первый лакомый кусок,
Не надеть второму лавровый венок,
Ну а третьему — ползти
На запасные пути...
Нет, товарищи, сколько всё-таки систем
в беге нынешнем!
Он вдруг взял да сбавил темп
перед финишем,
Майку сбросил — вот те на! —
не противно ли?
Товарищи, поведенье бегуна —
неспортивное!
На дистанции — четвёрка первачей,
Злых и добрых, бескорыстных и рвачей.
Кто из них что исповедует, кто чей?
Отделяются лопатки от плечей —
И летит, летит четвёрка первачей.
_________________________________
http://www.bard.ru/cgi-bin/mp3.cgi?id=2396.11
Комнатные растения
Стихи Константина Арбенина
Музыка Вячеслава Ковалева
Настольные и застенные,
Стихи мои, Вы, по сути,
Комнатные растения,
Проросшие через судьбы.
Объекты моей опеки,
И те, что не прижились
Комнатные побеги
Растущие сверху вниз.
Мыслей моих погонщики,
Которых душа ждала
На солнечном подоконнике
Кухонного стола.
По осени занесенные
Случайностью сквозняка
В паркетные черноземы
Квартирного городка.
Как стая синиц в скворечнике,
Как голь на чужих бобах,
Роились вы, несозревшие,
В ящиках и горшках.
Сквозь мутные лужи за море,
Цепляясь за все живое,
Тянулась моя азалия,
Карабкалось каланхоэ.
В реальности заоконные,
За блочную многогрань
Стремилась моя бегония,
Бежала моя герань.
Бросало свои полтинники
В копилку неровных строк
Время декоративное,
Быстрое, как вьюнок.
И выпрыгнуло из ящика
Отложенное на потом,
Вчерашнее настоящее,
Растение, ростом с том.
Надежд ли моих гербарий?
Ошибок оранжерея ли?
Творения или твари
Двухклеточной инженерии?
Собрались под переплетом
И пущены в оборот
Мои нелегкие легкие,
Соленый мой кислород,
Окрестность моя нательная,
Неправый мой самосуд,
Балконные заблуждения
В кухонном, ночном лесу.
Застольные и настенные
Для вечности и для дня, -
Сегодняшняя предыстория
Завтрашнего меня.
