Thread: softening of Russian"ч" (+стёб о разных говорах.Л.

I was wondering--when does the normal "ch" sound symbolized by "ч" become more of a "sh" sound like "ш"? For instance (I may be wrong), I think I've heard Russians pronounce "почти" as "pahsh-TEE." Then are words like "достаточно" or "точно" also pronounced with a "sh" rather than "ch" sound?

There is no strict rule.
There are words that some people pronounce with [ч], others with [ш].
But "тошно" и "точно" are different words. I've never heard anybody saying "точно" with [ш].

P.S.: Please correct my mistakes.

Originally Posted by laybackspinster

I was wondering--when does the normal "ch" sound symbolized by "ч" become more of a "sh" sound like "ш"?

There are some words that can be pronounced either with "ч" or with "ш" sound, depending on the person's social background, age or place of residence: достаточно, булочная, скворечник, сердечный, etc. I'm afraid, you just have to remember them to be able to recognise them regardless of the pronunciation. There's no specific rule.

"Почти" is always "pochti", "конечно" is either "koneshno" (in the meaning "of course"), or konechno" (in the meaning "finite" (adj. in neutral)).

Gromozeka, конечно is pronounced differently in different parts of Russia.

In St. Pete it is with a hard ч.
In Moscow it is with a soft ч.

... or the other way round :P

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

In St. Pete it is with a hard ч.

Even if it's true (and I need something more than VM's word to believe this, VM is a fibber) St.Pete is just one city; people who pronounce 'конечно' with 'sh' outnumber St.Pete's population by millions.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Gromozeka, конечно is pronounced differently in different parts of Russia.

In St. Pete it is with a hard ч.
In Moscow it is with a soft ч.

First, ч is always soft.

Second, I'm from St. Pete and I always said it as "koneshno" and many people there (I'd say, all) say it this way.

Originally Posted by Оля

First, ч is always soft.

And ш is hard.

We were taught by native St. Pete's that the pronounciation between the two cities were different...

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

We were taught by native St. Pete's that the pronounciation between the two cities were different...

We - who?
Maybe this native St. Pete's was old?

I don't notice any different between St. Pete's and Moscow pronunciation, and Ramil said in some topic that he doesn't, though he speaks to St. Pete's people on the telephone every day.

КОН’ЕЧНО [шн]
Ожегов.

[quote=Оля]

Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":1dpsc11x

Gromozeka, конечно is pronounced differently in different parts of Russia.

In St. Pete it is with a hard ч.
In Moscow it is with a soft ч.

First, ч is always soft.

Second, I'm from St. Pete and I always said it as "koneshno" and many people there (I'd say, all) say it this way.[/quote:1dpsc11x]We have already established that although you claim to have lived a certain part of your life in St Pete you still know bugger all of the dialect spoken here. But this time I agree with you - many people in St Pete say koneshno, and only some say konechno.

Some St. Pete's just like pondering on their differences and 'uniqueness' (they are more intelligent than Muscovites, they have 'greater' culture, etc. ), so they probably cling to some minor differences, that existed before, but now these differences are less and less prominent.

Anyway, Moscow pronounciation is a language standard since ~16th century, there's no use in learning to speak like a St.Pete.

Some notes on St.Pete's pronounciation:

... особыe редуцированныe предударныe гласныe. Если москвичи в слове "сестра" скажут нечто среднее между "е" и "и", у жителей Санкт-Петербурга там слышится буква "и".

...у москвичей и питерцев разный частотный диапазон. [...] Если попросить жителей двух столиц произнести одну и ту же фразу и замерить частотные характеристики их речи, то выяснится, что у москвича максимум этого показателя придется на 180 Гц, а у питерца — на 150. Проще говоря, московский язык более мелодичен и богат интонациями.

Словесные "пары" (Москва - Санкт-Петербург)
башня (высотный дом) - точка, точечный дом
булошная - булочная
бычок (сигаретный) - хабарик
вафельный рожок - сахарная трубочка
водолазка - бодлон
вожжи - возжи
гречка - греча
дрожжи - дрозжи
жёлчь - желчь
жулик - мазурик
конечная - кольцо
курица - кура
ластик - резинка
личинка (часть замка) - секретка
мобила - труба
пакет - кулек
палатка - ларек
перьевая ручка - вставочка
подъезд - парадное или лестница
пончик - пышка
проездной - карточка
сквер - садик
тачка (такси) - мотор
тротуар - панель
утятница - латка
учет - переучет
штука - тонна (тысяча рублей)
эстакада - виадук

Just for fun I marked the words that I use and hear daily in green, and ones that I've never heard before in this meaning or can misunderstand in red.

Well, Moscow is winning:
green - 17:7
red - 1:7

[quote=Оля]

Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":mpea5266

We were taught by native St. Pete's that the pronounciation between the two cities were different...

We - who?
Maybe this native St. Pete's was old?

I don't notice any different between St. Pete's and Moscow pronunciation, and Ramil said in some topic that he doesn't, though he speaks to St. Pete's people on the telephone every day.[/quote:mpea5266]You lot must be mutt or something. The differences are obvious to most speakers of Russian. Go to the South of Russia and see how quickly they place your accent as that of Moscow. I've always been placed as a native of St Pete down there and never as a Muscovite.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Some St. Pete's just like pondering on their differences and 'uniqueness' (they are more intelligent than Muscovites, they have 'greater' culture, etc. )

Bollocks, we in St Pete don't think the Muscovites are less intelligent or have less culture or anything like that. What we think is that they are stuck up and bossy.

so they probably cling to some minor differences, that existed before, but now these differences are less and less prominent.

Double bollocks. The accents are actually drifting more and more apart from what I hear. And these differences are so 'minor' that it takes a Russian from the South of the country no more than 10 seconds to tell if a person is from St Pete or Moscow.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

перьевая ручка - вставочка

Фигасе, если бы такое попалось, сам бы я не догадался о чем речь.
Еще, говорят, в Питере бордюр называют поребриком. =)

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I've always been placed as a native of St Pete down there and never as a Muscovite.

Man, who cares? Congratulations with your perfect 'St.Pete' pronuciation, but the question is "Is it necessary for the RSL to learn to pronounce a word in a specific way just because SOME people (whom most of us never met) in ONE Russian city pronounce it like that?". I'd say - NO.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

You lot must be mutt or something.

А ты или шут или иностранец, который говорит по-русски с акцентом, судя по той записи, якобы демонстрирующей "петербургское произношение", которую ты выложил в другой ветке. Так что уж если кому и верить, так только не тебе.

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Еще, говорят, в Питере бордюр называют поребриком. =)

Ага, и с хлебом/булками у них какая-то мешанина. =) Но я не просто скопировала список, как было. Он неполный.

EDIT: Да, насчет вставочки. )) Если такие вещи, как "точечный дом", "сахарная трубочка" (хотя какая же она "сахарная", если она из вафли ) и пр. можно понять по контексту, а другие ("хабарик") можно вспомнить,если поднапрячься, то бодлон, личинка, вставочка и латка меня просто оставили бы в полном недоумении.
У вас эти слова употребляют?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

башня (высотный дом) - точка, точечный дом

точка никто не говорит

жулик - мазурик

мазурик никто не говорит. это несерьезное слово, какое-то детское, из журнал мурзилка

пакет - кулек

Так говорят только старые люди, для молодых кулек - Институт Культуры (ВУЗ)

перьевая ручка - вставочка

нет перьевых ручек, нет и слова, не придумывай, никто так не говорит

подъезд - парадное или лестница

Еще парадная и парадняк.

пончик - пышка

Есть у нас и пончики и пышки, но это совершенно разные выпечные изделия.

сквер - садик

еще у нас говорят скверик

тротуар - панель

На панели только бл*ди работают, а достопочтенные граждане ходят по тротуару

утятница - латка

шо цэ таке?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Еще, говорят, в Питере бордюр называют поребриком. =)

Ага, и с хлебом/булками у них какая-то мешанина. =) Но я не просто скопировала список, как было. Он неполный.

Когда жила в Питере, называла батон "булкой". Белый хлеб был "булкой". "Кольцо" тоже помню, "ларек", "пышка" - да.
Но вообще-то многое в этом списке или надумано, или устарело. Например, я всегда и слышала, и говорила "проездной", а не "карточка". Ну и "тротуар", и "сквер" - вполне нормальные там слова.

А некоторые слова из этого списка я не знаю ни в московском, ни в питерском варианте.