Soft ж

The soft pronunciation of ж is indicated in writing by doubling: жж (as in жжёшь "you burn"). Otherwise, the consonant ж is always hard, except in isolated cases of consonant assimilation (see below): жаба "toad". There is exactly one unassimilated exception: жюри "jury". In feminine nouns and in some inflexional forms, a soft sign ь is written by historical tradition after the undoubled ж at the end of the word, but there is no softening: рожь "rye". Similarly, a е, ё, or и written after the undoubled ж does not imply a soft pronunciation: также "also", жёлтый "yellow", жить "to live". The soft pronunciation of жж has in the twentieth century lost ground to the hard. Nonetheless, it continues to be standard in broadcasting, etc.

I didn't know that

That's from Wikipedia by the way/

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Originally Posted by TATY

Nonetheless, it continues to be standard in broadcasting, etc.

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:o Never heard it in broadcasting. Did anyone?

In a theatrical declamation only.

I've never heard the soft ж either (except for the cases when Russians fool around with their accents). When I try pronouncing one, it sounds unnatural. That's not a norm. By the way, wikipedia is written by everyone who can type.

Well, sometimes it is heard in words like
дрожжи, вожжи, визжать [вижж'ать], дожди [д/\жж'и]
Although I tend to pronounce дождь и дожди like [дошт'] и [д/\жд'и] instead of [дощ] и [д/\жж'и] (notice that щ is always long and soft)
But дрожжи are undoubtfully with soft жж'.
And how do you pronounce it? With hard ж? [дрожжы] что ли?

Methinks Дождь should be pronounced Дошть due to dovoicing.

traditionnally it it sometimes pronounced as дощщ.

I and all Russians I converse with pronounce "дрожжи" with hard 'ж'. But you're right, this word sounds fine with soft 'ж' too. I didn't realize that. I also pronounce 'ж' as a hard consonant in вожжи, визжать, дожди.

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Originally Posted by MasterAdmin

I and all Russians I converse with pronounce "дрожжи" with hard 'ж'.

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Me too, but, yes, now I also recall that I heard some people pronounced it as soft, but it always sounded odd and unpleasant to my ears.

What you refer to the soft pronunciation of 'дождь' is interweaved with two norms, the one being of Petersburg (accepted by most of us) and the other being of Moscow (soft 'ж').

I don't remember why they are called like that. Norms, I mean.

The Moscow norm is really weired. Things are pronounced like that:
[скварешник] - скворечник
[мойусъ] - моюсь
[тихай] - тихий
[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

That's it.

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

The Moscow norm is really weired. Things are pronounced like that:
[скварешник] - скворечник
[мойусъ] - моюсь
[тихай] - тихий
[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

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It's Moscow norm? :o

Just remember all those Soviet cartoons, for example.

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

Just remember all those Soviet cartoons, for example.

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Like what?

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

That's it.

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Isn't that normal pronounciation? I don't see anything strange about this one.

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Originally Posted by TATY

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

That's it.

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Isn't that normal pronounciation? I don't see anything strange about this one.

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I think the normal one is [лёхкий].

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Originally Posted by alexei

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

Just remember all those Soviet cartoons, for example.

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Like what?

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Oh, I can't say exactly the names of the cartoons without a mistake, where the accent is certain. Take any Moscow-made.

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Originally Posted by alexei

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Originally Posted by TATY

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

That's it.

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Isn't that normal pronounciation? I don't see anything strange about this one.

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I think the normal one is [лёхкий].

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Yes, it is.
And that variant has [к] instead of [х].

I see, like мягкий sounds like мяхкий.

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

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Originally Posted by alexei

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

Just remember all those Soviet cartoons, for example.

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Like what?

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Oh, I can't say exactly the names of the cartoons without a mistake, where the accent is certain. Take any Moscow-made.

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If I had known any, I woundn't have asked. I've seen a lot of cartoons but can't remember someone said [тихай] or [л'окк'ий].

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Originally Posted by alexei

If I had known any, I woundn't have asked. I've seen pretty much cartoons but can't remember someone said [тихай] or [л'окк'ий].

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I think I heard [тихай] (most likely in a cartoon but I don't remember where exactly) and I thought that it was sort of old-fashioned peasant accent but I don't think I heard [л'окк'ий]. I don't think it's a Moscow accent.

Friendy made me remember, I think Баба-Яга could say [тихай]. But it's not a Moscow norm, it's just, as Friendy said, a way to show her peasant accent/origin.

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And how do you pronounce it? With hard ж? [дрожжы] что ли?

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Well, I say it like that.

P.S. (с) Жжжёра, подержи мой макинтощщщь.

[тихай] is old-fashioned pronuciation. I think most people in villages and towns pronouced unstressed -ий ending like -ой. And this is originally correct, because in stressed position we have -ой. The written-ий ending came from Ukranian spelling in the beg. of XVIII century. After the fight for literacy in 1920-30-s all newly literate peasants and workers tended to pronounce words as they were written, not as they were traditionally pronounced.

[тихай] is old-fashioned pronuciation. I think most people in villages and towns pronouced unstressed -ий ending like -ой. And this is originally correct, because in stressed position we have -ой. The written-ий ending came from Ukranian spelling in the beg. of XVIII century. After the fight for literacy in 1920-30-s all newly literate peasants and workers tended to pronounce words as they were written, not as they were traditionally pronounced.

True. Толстой vs. толстый.

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

The Moscow norm is really weired. Things are pronounced like that:
[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

That's it.

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I've never heard any Muscovite said [л'окк'ий]... i mean a grown-up one ... but surely it's a norm for 3-4-year-olds

Well, I'm not a Muscovite, I'm a minging double st petersburger, but I sure as heck say "lock-key" for лёгкий.

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Originally Posted by Rtyom

What you refer to the soft pronunciation of 'дождь' is interweaved with two norms, the one being of Petersburg (accepted by most of us) and the other being of Moscow (soft 'ж').

I don't remember why they are called like that. Norms, I mean.

The Moscow norm is really weired. Things are pronounced like that:
[скварешник] - скворечник
[мойусъ] - моюсь
[тихай] - тихий
[л'окк'ий] - лёгкий.

That's it.

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There are hardly any norms left, seriously speaking. In our family we say it this way:

[скварешник] - скворечник
[мойусь] - моюсь
[тихий] - тихий
[л'охьк'ий] - лёгкий.
[дрожж'и] - дрожжи
[дажди] - дожди
[дошть/дощщ] - дождь

As for me, I can't stand the pronunciation of [дощ(щ)].

Norms aren't stable. They always shift.

In what way do the pronunciations of soft and hard ж differ? Could someone describe (or record) it please? I can't possibly imagine how I could make my ж sound either harder or softer. :?

To make it softer, articulate from the initial position and lift the front part of your tongue to the hard palate. You have to keep your tongue in the position for a while with ж sounding and then make recursion.

Perfectly fitting words to train it are: дрожжи, вожжи.

Ah, thanks for the explanation.