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I have a question regarding the pronunciation of feminine nouns that end with -а. For example, аватара (underlining the stress) or avatar in Russian,
аватара (sing. nom. case) vs. аватаре (sing. dat. case)
Are both of the pronunciation homonyms? Or maybe аватаре is pronounced more like аватари in Standard Russian?
That's a very good question. I for one can't say what the unstressed vowels in there exactly sound like. I think it's true for most, if not all, Russians. The only thing I'm fairly sure about is that аватара and аватаре don't sound the same.
correct. very close.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karavanshchik
аватара - close to 'shwa' in Engl.
аватаре - close to e in 'pen'
/e/ and /i/ merge in most unstressed positions (e.g. лиса 'fox' and леса 'forests' are pronounced [lʲɪˈsa]).
Some speakers distinguish /e/ and /i/ in the ending position, though. (звери vs о звере)
See Russian phonology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for details.
RedFox
Yeah, I think you're right about the merging thing. For example, I remember learning this rule back in school. Like what's right в дороги or в дороге. What was curious is that a lot of people had a great deal of trouble with this, but for me it was like "Come on. Can't you guys just hear it? I certainly can."
It brings back memories :)
So let me transliterate it in IPAQuote:
Originally Posted by alexsms
аватара = [ɐvɐˈtarʲə]
аватаре = [ɐvɐˈtarʲɪ]
(underlined "а" is the stress)
I'm not sure but it's probably more likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Karavanshchik
аватара [əvəˈtarə]
аватаре [əvəˈtare] - r should be soft here
[...rə]Quote:
Originally Posted by Karavanshchik
[r] is hard here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
Sorry, I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFox
аватара = [ɐvɐˈtarə]
аватари = [ɐvɐˈtarʲɪ]
аватаре = [ɐvɐˈtarʲə]
Got confused.
Still think all unstressed "a"s are schwas :)
For all practical purposes, unstressed "а"s are either [ɐ] or [ə]. I can't disagree with you on that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by iCake
Although iCake says he can distinguish -и and -е in the ending position, and there actually are minor differences in pronunciation in different areas of the country, I believe the standard language tends to fully merge these unstressed phonemes. (Except for such cases as желание, сиденье, приключение and so on.)
Letters е/и in тучи, лиса, леса, кое-где, ниже and море aren't required to be pronounced differently, neither has one to able to distinguish them to understand Russian.
The rules of reduction are actually quite simple, at least on a phonological level. There are four groups of vowels to remember: 1) those that are reduced to /ʊ/ (у, ю), 2) those that are reduced to /ɨ/, 3) those that are reduced to /ɪ/ (е, и, я), and 4) those that are reduced to /ɐ/ or /ə/ (о, а). Next, it is important in which syllable the vowel is found: whether it precedes the stressed syllable (i.e. pre-tonic) or is found elsewhere.
Group 1 (у, ю):
These are always pronounced /ʊ/.
Group 2 (э):
These are always pronounced /ɨ/.
Group 3 (е, и, я):
These are pronounced /ɪ/,
though я is pronounced /ə/ word-finally.
Group 4 (о, а):
These are pronounced /ɐ/ when preceding the stressed syllable.
These are pronounced /ə/ when found elsewhere.
Note that on a phonetic level there are more subtle distinctions among the vowels, but most normal learners do not need to know these rules (or care to learn them). The rules above are sufficient for most, and the subtle distinctions will eventually be picked up by the learner when exposed to spoken Russian.
Except for я in endings:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolya
Катя [ˈkatʲæ] vs Кати[ˈkatʲɪ]
дача [ˈdaʨæ] vs дачи [ˈdaʨɪ]
For about unstressed э, i.e. [ɛ] after a hard consonant, after a vowel or at the beginning of a word, it is rather rare and can be found only in loanwords:
экран, эфир, коэффициент, муэдзин, диэлектрик.
It is normally reduced from [ɛ] to [ɨ] or [ɘ], but not to [ɪ]:
[ɨkˈran]
[ɨˈfʲir]
[kəɨfʲɪʦɨˈɛnt]
[mʊɨˈdzʲin]
Exception: иэ as in [dʲɪ.ɪˈlʲektrʲɪk], ɪ + ɨ is assimilated to ɪ + ɪ.
I was a bit too quick when it comes to the vowel я, it is pronounced /ə/ in final positions. And what I wrote about the vowel э is wrong, it is of course reduced to /ɨ/ - like you said - not /ɪ/. I tried to keep it on a phonological level, so that it might be easier for a learner to understand. However, the word-final /ə/-reduction is found on a phonological level, and should therefore be included, my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFox
I have corrected my post.
(Didn't read whole thread, aslo I'm not linguist at all. But I am Russian, so I tried to understand difference by myself. Hope, this will be helpfull)Quote:
Originally Posted by Karavanshchik
For the most part, `аватАра` и `аватАре` are pronounced similar. You don't need to give attention to it.
But the light difference exists.
For example, if `аватар` means small user's picture on forum, then:
`У тебя нет аватАра` - pronounces with strength in it. Guess, it's something like `fIght`
`Что это у тебя на аватАре?` - pronounces softer than former one. It has nothing to do with exclusions or rules. It's because `е` in the end is "soft" sound, which makes `р` softer, and vice versa. So, `аватАре` gets his softness from `е`.