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Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Hi there,
My first post, so hello to all.
Please advise how -ете should be pronounced when it occurs in the ending of verbs (in the 2nd person plural). For example "вы знаете". With the stress on the а, then according to my pronuncation guide, this should be "vy zna-it-ye" because the 1st е would reduce to sound like и but the 2nd one wouldn't (because it's at the end of the word). But, when I hear people say this word, it sounds more like "vy zna-yet-ay"... almost like the 1st е doesn't reduce.. and the last one does something very strange and sounds like ай? :?
Any help much appreciated.
Thanks,
Simon
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
I'd say that each of "е" can be either reduced to "и" or not. For example, zna-i-ti, zna-i-te, zna-ye-te all are equally acceptable IMHO. (With palatalized "t" of course.) And I don't see the way it can be pronounced like "zna-yet-ay" or smth. like that. No "ай"-s at the end.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
I'd say that each of "е" can be either reduced to "и" or not. For example, zna-i-ti, zna-i-te, zna-ye-te all are equally acceptable IMHO. (With palatalized "t" of course.) And I don't see the way it can be pronounced like "zna-yet-ay" or smth. like that. No "ай"-s at the end.
I second each word of that. :-) Can't understand how on Earth you Becksie hear "ay" there. :unknown: Hi. :-)
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
I'd say that each of "е" can be either reduced to "и" or not. For example, zna-i-ti, zna-i-te, zna-ye-te all are equally acceptable IMHO. (With palatalized "t" of course.) And I don't see the way it can be pronounced like "zna-yet-ay" or smth. like that. No "ай"-s at the end.
Zna-i-te is correct!
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
[quote=Оля] Quote:
Originally Posted by "it-ogo":1ex2u430
I'd say that each of "е" can be either reduced to "и" or not. For example, zna-i-ti, zna-i-te, zna-ye-te all are equally acceptable IMHO. (With palatalized "t" of course.) And I don't see the way it can be pronounced like "zna-yet-ay" or smth. like that. No "ай"-s at the end.
I second each word of that. :-) Can't understand how on Earth you Becksie hear "ay" there. :unknown: Hi. :-)[/quote:1ex2u430]
Presumably he means the "~ay" in "hay".
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Presumably he means the "~ay" in "hay".
Yes, that's exactly how I understood it. No "ay" there. :unknown:
Also, no "ай" (as in "hi").
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Presumably he means the "~ay" in "hay".
Yes, that's exactly how I understood it. No "ay" there. :unknown:
Also, no "ай" (as in "hi").
I wonder if this is a difference between native- and non-native ears, and becoming accustomed to the sounds. When I started learning Russian I also heard the last syllable in "вы знаете" as "ay" when native speakers said it quickly. Now I don't. :unknown:
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pronounce it "zna-it-ye" myself, and hopefully my non-native ears will gradually hear that that's how the locals are saying it too.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by becksie
Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pronounce it "zna-it-ye" myself, and hopefully my non-native ears will gradually hear that that's how the locals are saying it too.
There's no [j] sound. It sounds like [зна-и-т'э]
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriroma
Quote:
Originally Posted by becksie
Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pronounce it "zna-it-ye" myself, and hopefully my non-native ears will gradually hear that that's how the locals are saying it too.
There's no [j] sound. It sounds like [зна-и-т'э]
What if you say it slowly?
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriroma
Quote:
Originally Posted by becksie
Thanks guys. I'll be sure to pronounce it "zna-it-ye" myself, and hopefully my non-native ears will gradually hear that that's how the locals are saying it too.
I suggest you NOT to pronounce it like "zna-it-ye" because in fact there is not "ye" sound either, and that would be the typical strong English accent. Try to say "ee" there (like in "see"), only make it very short. It's just a short "и". Not "ye". Has nothing to do with "ye". Believe us natives. :)
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Радионяня поёт на стихи Даниила Хармса
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/album_a ... Fnumber=23
Врун
-- Вы знаете?
Вы знаете?
Вы знаете?
Вы знаете?
Ну, конечно, знаете!
Ясно, что вы знаете!
Несомненно,
Несомненно,
Несомненно знаете!
-- Нет! Нет! Нет! Нет!
Мы не знаем ничего,
Не слыхали ничего,
Не слыхали, не видали
И не знаем
Ничего!
-- А вы знаете, что У?
А вы знаете, что ПА?
А вы знаете, что ПЫ?
Что у папы моего
Было сорок сыновей?
Было сорок здоровенных --
И не двадцать,
И не тридцать,--
Ровно сорок сыновей!
-- Ну! Ну! Ну! Ну!
Врёшь! Врёшь! Врёшь! Врёшь!
Еще двадцать,
Еще тридцать,
Ну ещё туда-сюда,
А уж сорок,
Ровно сорок,--
Это ж просто ерунда!
-- А вы знаете, что СО?
А вы знаете, что БА?
А вы знаете, что КИ?
Что собаки-пустолайки
Научилися летать?
Научились точно птицы,--
Не как звери,
Не как рыбы,--
Точно ястребы летать!
-- Ну! Ну! Ну! Ну!
Врёшь! Врёшь! Врёшь! Врёшь!
Ну, как звери,
Ну, как рыбы,
Ну ещё туда-сюда,
А как ястребы,
Как птицы,--
Это ж просто ерунда!
-- А вы знаете, что ДО?
А вы знаете, что НО?
А вы знаете, что СА?
Что до носа
Ни руками,
Ни ногами
Не достать,
Что до носа
Ни руками,
Ни ногами
Не доехать,
Не допрыгать,
Что до носа
Не достать!
-- Ну! Ну! Ну! Ну!
Врёшь! Врёшь! Врёшь! Врёшь!
Ну, доехать,
Ну, допрыгать,
Ну ещё туда-сюда,
А достать его руками --
Это ж
Просто
Ерунда!
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Кто разбирается, пусть исправит. Мне кажется, дело в диалектах....
"Зна-и-те" это, конечно, норма (так и в школе пишут при фонетическом разборе слов). Однако я сама из Восточной Сибири и звучание "зна-и-те" кажется лично мне жеманным (особенно если растягивать "и").
"Зна-и-те" ("зна-и-т'э") прозвучит нормально, только если "и" будет очень беглым (reduced?)
Если растягивать, так уж лучше "зна-е-те" ("зна-йэ-т'э")
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lae
Кто разбирается, пусть исправит. Мне кажется, дело в диалектах....
"Зна-и-те" это, конечно, норма (так и в школе пишут при фонетическом разборе слов). Однако я сама из Восточной Сибири и звучание "зна-и-те" кажется лично мне жеманным (особенно если растягивать "и").
"Зна-и-те" ("зна-и-т'э") прозвучит нормально, только если "и" будет очень беглым (reduced?)
Если растягивать, так уж лучше "зна-е-те" ("зна-йэ-т'э")
Никогда не слышала, чтобы "и" растягивали, как Вы говорите. Этот звук уже беглый в данном примере, тем более, что ударным является "а". Не думаю, что человеку, начинающему изучать какой-либо язык, стоит заучивать все диалекты этого языка - достаточно выучить правильные формы для начала.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriroma
Не думаю, что человеку, начинающему изучать какой-либо язык, стоит заучивать все диалекты этого языка - достаточно выучить правильные формы для начала.
Согласна. Каюсь :sorry:
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
The pronunciation pattern that I found, which seems to most closely resemble what I actually hear is as follows.
-The vowels а and о are reduced to ə (schwa) when they occur outside of the stressed syllable, unless they occur in the syllable immediately preceding the stressed syllable.
-The vowels я and е are always reduced to и when they occur outside of the stressed syllable, unless they occur at the end of a word, where they are not reduced because they have to correctly indicate verb tenses and noun cases.
Based on that rule, I would say знà-и-те. This may or may not sound 100% correct to a native speaker, but I would feel confident that, at the very least, I wouldn't sound like a silly newbie.
With that said... and with respect to Оля's point above... the te should be considered a shorthand for тьэ. So it's not tye, but more like t'eh.
Or, at least that's how I understand the pronunciation to work.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by randem
The pronunciation pattern that I found, which seems to most closely resemble what I actually hear is as follows.
-The vowels а and о are reduced to ə (schwa) when they occur outside of the stressed syllable, unless they occur in the syllable immediately preceding the stressed syllable.
-The vowels я and е are always reduced to и when they occur outside of the stressed syllable, unless they occur at the end of a word, where they are not reduced because they have to correctly indicate verb tenses and noun cases.
Given that yandex finds 17000 occurences of "знаети" i'm not so sure that terminal 'е' is not reduced to 'и'.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
Given that yandex finds 17000 occurences of "знаети" i'm not so sure that terminal 'е' is not reduced to 'и'.
1st of all you shouldn't trust yandex so much. for example you can find "упячка" (710000 result), but this word doesn't even exist in literature! "Знаете" must be pronounced as "zna-yet-te". Variant "знаети" appears during fluent speaking.
Во-первых, Вы не должны доверять яндексу настолько. К примеру, Вы можете найти "упяка"(710000 результатов), но такое слово не существует в литературе! "Знаете" должно былть произнесено как "zna-yet-te". Вариант "знаети" появляется в разговорном языке
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImfromRussia
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
1st of all you shouldn't trust yandex so much. for example you can find "упячка" (710000 result), but this word doesn't even exist in literature! "Знаете" must be pronounced as "zna-yet-te". Variant "знаети" appears during fluent speaking.
Во-первых, Вы не должны доверять яндексу настолько. К примеру, Вы можете найти "упяка"(710000 результатов), но такое слово не существует в литературе! "Знаете" должно былть произнесено как "zna-yet-te". Вариант "знаети" появляется в разговорном языке
вы предлагаете "знаете" произносить как знаЕтте, причем буква "е" является ударной в вашем примере? Зачем тогда делается фонетический разбор слова в начальных классах? Буква "е" состоит из двух звуков "й" и "э" и не является звуком как таковым.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
For all its problems, I still think for a complete beginner 'zna-yet-ye' is the most useful (or least potentially misleading) approximation of the pronunciation.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
For all its problems, I still think for a complete beginner 'zna-yet-ye' is the most useful (or least potentially misleading) approximation of the pronunciation.
I agree. It's hard to tell how advanced the OP is, though.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
For all its problems, I still think for a complete beginner 'zna-yet-ye' is the most useful (or least potentially misleading) approximation of the pronunciation.
I disagree. Even a beginner should not be bound to the patterns of his native language 'for the sake of simplicity', or he ends up with something like
Quote:
1-One (pronounced o-ne)
2-Tsuwo
3-Fuee
4-Fuuru
5-Fube
6-Shiku
7-Sebenu
8-Eigufutsu
9-Nine (pronounces ni-ne)
10-Tenu
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
For all its problems, I still think for a complete beginner 'zna-yet-ye' is the most useful (or least potentially misleading) approximation of the pronunciation.
I disagree. Even a beginner should not be bound to the patterns of his native language 'for the sake of simplicity',
[/quote]
That's not what we're saying. Obviously, a beginner should try to pronounce the words as closely as possible to native speech, however, the vast majority won't be able to, so it's a question of managing the deficiency for the sake of being understood. Recommending that a beginner articulate the individual sounds of a word in a way that might sound unnatural to native speakers is sometimes the quickest and best way of teaching that student to speak intelligibly.
It's a little funny when the native speakers are debating over whether it should be 'zna-it-i' or 'zna-it-e', when the typical beginner is going to pronounce either one as знайты.
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matroskin Kot
Recommending that a beginner articulate the individual sounds of a word in a way that might sound unnatural to native speakers is sometimes the quickest and best way of teaching that student to speak intelligibly.
It's borderline to pronouncing 'th' like in 'rathole'. Articulating.
Quote:
It's a little funny when the native speakers are debating over whether it should be 'zna-it-i' or 'zna-it-e', when the typical beginner is going to pronounce either one as знайты.
I guess it may vary for the beginners over the rest of the world. And if they have no speaking sample and reluctant to learn IPA - ... ?
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Re: Pronunciation of -ете (at end of вы verbs)
Quote:
Originally Posted by vox05
It's borderline to pronouncing 'th' like in 'rathole'. Articulating.
It is? Will all due respect, that's not articulating, that's just pronouncing it wrong. Over-articulating a word would be to pronounce 'rathole' with a strongly audible 'h'. A bit stilted and unnatural sounding, but completely understandable, and a much better choice than trying to sound like a fluent native when your tongue is not capable of making the correct sounds, and having it come out sounding like 'rattle'.
