So when is o pronounced as a?
For example: золото, около, кокаин, отходить, полтара, полгода, чувствовать.
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So when is o pronounced as a?
For example: золото, около, кокаин, отходить, полтара, полгода, чувствовать.
Unstressed "o" is not actually pronounced like "a".Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
It's a cross between "a" and "э" and "ы".
So this sound is pronounced when "o" is not stressed and the next syllable is not stressed too. For example:
з́олото, ́около, кока́ин, полтор́а, ч́увствовать.
But if the next syllable is stressed then "o" is pronounced nearly like "a" (one can pronounce "a"). For example:
вод́а, ход́ить, нос́ок, полтор́а etc
"Полгода" is a composite word: "пол" (половина, half) + "год", so two "o" are pronounced like "o", but the last "o" is stressed.
I suppose spoken language was before writing. So who got the idea to write "o" in place of this letter?Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
But for example "золото здесь",Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
the first o would be o, the second is the mixture of "a" and "э" and "ы" and because здесь is stressed, the last o must be actually "a"?
Well, every language was only spoken first ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
But to pronounce 'a' in unstressed syllables is a particular Moscovite accent. In some regions they pronounce 'o' everywhere.
I am pronouncing the first O here just like the 2nd one in "poltora".Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
I don't think this carries across word boundaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
The mixture of "a" and "э" and "ы" is called "ер" [йэр].Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
The faint "a" is called "крышка" (Λ)
The last o ("золото здесь") must be "ер", not "крышка".
aka schwa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
These rules work inside one word, not inside all the sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
We say "стол", but "стола" (o in "стола" is крышка). Do you offer to write it "стала"??? (btw "стала" is the form of a verb)Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
And who got the idea to write "hawk" if it's pronounced [hok]???
Who devised the words "right" & "write"?
Olya you've just confused the poor person.
The sound Olya is trying to describe is called a Schwa, which is the sound the a in the English Sofa has.
Sofa
Banana
Circus
It's an ultra-short vowel sound.
Schwa gets its name from the Hebrew "Sheva", which is a vowel sound represented by a :
The word Sheva in Hebrew means "nought" or "zero".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwa
The IPA symbol is an upside down E.
That's a really stupid question.Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
But anyway:
O used to be pronounced O all the time, it was much later that people in Russia started reducing unstressed O to A or Schwa.
Вод
Oh really?Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
Yes. He can hardly grasp the simple concept of O reduction, and you go saying the sound is a cross between A and Э and Ы. The guy can probably not even pronounced Ы yet :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Оля
I think paasikivi will grasp on his own.
I just replied to the question. If the answer is complicated then you offer do not reply?
That's some other stupid person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
So are you saying that Schwa = йер ? So that for example it would be present in "много"? This is clearly pronounced многa.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATU
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
Not clearly.
TATY, talk about confusing people. You wrote above that there is a second syllable in "played" that is pronounced schwa?
That's the way I hear it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
E.g. the word "молоко" we say as "мълако". This example illustrates the three levels of russian reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by paasikivi
That's a good example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guin
Did you know that in Belarussian, Akan'ye is also reflected in orthography?
вад
Родная моваQuote:
Originally Posted by TATY
(Группа Песняры)
Мова родная мово дзядоў!
Іншай мовы мы сэрцам ня чуем.
Мілагучнаеьцю любых нам слоў,
Быццам музыкай душу чаруеш,
Мы за вокнамі дзень залаты,
Нашых рзкаў пявучыя хвалі,
Роднай хаты сьвятыя куты
Ў гэтай мове раз першы назвалi.
Припев:
Наша мова - спатканне,
3 казкай ў цудным дзецкiм сне,
Наша мова - коханне,
што прыходзіць да мяне.
Любай песьняй старою гучыш,
3-над калыскi, з гадоў тых дзяцiнных
Салауiным разьлівам ўначы,
Звонам хваляў прыткой ручаіны,
3-пад вясковых прыветлівых стрэх
Мілагучна зьвiнiш ад сьвiеання;
Бы дзывочны, рассыпчысты, сьмех,
Быццам першаеў сэрцы каханне!
Припев:
Наша мова - спатканне,
з казкай, ў цудным дзецкім сне,
Наша мова - каханне,
што прыходзіць да мяне,
Сьвяты прадзедаў ты нам адказ,
Якім слаўна ў харомах гудзела!
Ты, як неба, як сонца, для нас –
Быццам наквецьцю сад заінелы.
Мова родная, мова дзядоў!
Іншай мовы мы сзрцам ня чуем,
Мілагучнасьцю любых нам слоў,
Быццам музыкай душу чаруеш,
Припев:
Наша мова - спатканне,
з казкай, у цудным дзецкім сне,
Наша мова - каханне,
што прыходзіць да мяне.
Косил Ясь конюшину
(Поют Песняры)
Касiў Ясь канюшiну, (3 р.)
Паглядаў на дзяўчыну.
А дзяўчына жыта жала,
Ды на Яся паглядала: -
Цi ты Ясь, цi ты не, (3 р.)
Спадабаўся ты мне...
Кiнуў Яська касиць, (3 р.)
Пачаў мамку прасiць: -
Люба мамка мая, Ажанi ж ты мяне! -
Дык бяры ж Станiславу, (3 р.)
Ка сядзела на ўсю лаву. -
Станiславу не хачу, (3 р.)
Бо на лаву не ўсажу! -
Дык бяры ж ты Янину, (3 р.)
Працявiтую дзяўчыну.
Касiў Ясь канюшiну, (3 р.)
Паглядаў на дзяўчыну.
Две моих самых любимых песни на белорусском:
Шуміце бярозы (Сябры)
муз. Эдуард Ханок
сл. Ніл Гілевіч
Вы шуміце шуміце
Надамною бярозы,
Калышыце люляйце
Свой напеў векавы,
А я лягу прылягу
Край гасцінца старога
На духмяным пракосе
Недаспелай травы.
А я лягу прылягу
Край гасцінца старога
Галавой на пагорак
На высокі курган
А стамлённыя рукі
Вольна ў шыркі раскіну,
А нагамі ў даліну,
Хай накрые туман.
Вы шуміце шуміце
Надамною бярозы,
Асыпайце мілуйце
Ціхай ласкай зямлю
А я лягу прылягу
Край гасцінца старога
Я здарожыўся трохі
Я хвілінку пасплю.
Вы шуміце шуміце
Надамною бярозы,
Асыпайце мілуйце
Ціхай ласкай зямлю.
Белы снег (Верасы)
муз. Эдуард Ханок
сл. Г. Буравкин
Белы снег белы снег
белы снег белы цень
Белы снег белы снег
белы снег белы дзень
Ты куды мяне клiчаш паслухай
Завiруха мяце завiруха
На дварэ нi машын нi людзей
На дварэ нi машын нi людзей
Завiруха мяце завiруха
Ты куда мяне клiчаш паслухай
На дварэ нi машын нi людзей
Нi машын нi людзей
Белы снег белы снег
белы снег белы след
Белы снег белы снег
белы снег белы свет
За табой асцярожна ступаю
Засыпае нас снег засыпае
Патрапляю ў замецены след
Патрапляю ў замецены след
Засыпае нас снег засыпае
За табой асцярожна ступаю
Патрапляю ў замецены след
ў замецены след
Белы снег белы снег
белы снег белы клен
Белы снег белы снег
белы снег белы сон
Як паходня твой шаль ружавее
На зямлi я i ты i завея
И вакол нi вачей нi акон
И вакол нi вачей нi акон
На зямлi я i ты i завея
Як паходня твой шаль ружавее
И вакол нi вачей нi акон
Нi вачей ни акон
Меня с дества интересовало - по радио говорят "12 годзiн 10 мiнут",Quote:
Originally Posted by Guin
а поют "хвiлiнку", как по-украински.
Сами не знают на каком поют, думалось мне.
О and Э never used in unstressed position (as Ё in Russian)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Это по Тарашкевичу писано? Или в наркомовке тут тоже мягкий знак?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Belorussian AKANIE:
http://www.funtomas.ru/up/1150822830_dk.jpg
I suppose in a way that make Belarussian easier for foreigners, as if there is an O in the word, or an Э (Э is common in Belarussian, unlike Russian), you know that's the stressed sylable. But then again, if the stress on a word shifts onto an A, you have to know whether than A is infact an unstressed O!
I think tihis is one of the main reasons why the so called "pure phonetical" orthography is not suitable for Russian. What we have now is "phonological orthography" where letters designate "ideal" sounds, which would be there in ideal positions, and not actual variations. Otherwise you, foreigners as well as natives, woud have to learn numerous variations -- стол, сталовая, сталовый (прибор) a in one position, o in another; мой друк, моего друга (unvoiced/voiced), друг бы помок, special sign for джь (voiced ч) sound would be needed for "помочь бы" etc. There are enough of old interchanges (ходить-хожу), no need for new and still obvious ones. Besides some people pronounce e in unstyressed е positions, others pronounce и, another ones something between и and е. The same for а, although strict o-accent is rare now. But I noticed, that in Volga and Ural regions people tend to pronounce o/a in unstressed position, while in Moscow and in the South it is more like comon a.
Isn't there something like Akaniye in English too? There's something kinda like that isn't there?
Explain to me please why do you pronounce the words: "How", "love", and "hot" like if there is A and not o, when it is written with O? It is sort Akaniye in English too, is in't it?
The fact is that there are more vowels in English than in Russian. Over the centuries the vowel system in Russian reduced, so now we have only а е/э о у и ы.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remyisme
The vowel in "hot" is more open and short than Russian o, so sometimes it sounds like short Russian a, especially in some American dialects.
The vowel in "love" must be the same as in "cup" (because it was a mistake of medieval copyists, luve -> love in Gothic or black-letter script).
The short closed "u" is not the same as short closed "o", although they may sound more or less the same for Russian ear. In different dialects it is pronounced in different ways. In "standart" English (if there is one) it is more or less unstressed а in Russian, but a little bit lower. I heard a guy from Manchester pronounced "London" (the same mistake: Lundinium-> Lundon -> London) and "husband" as "Лундон" and "хузбанд". The Beales used to pronounce "love" as "лов" because they were from Liverpool. Since then, as I heard, many pop-singers in their songs sing it the same way, because it is "cool".
O in "How" is another case, because it is a diphtong [au] and it must be pronounced as [au].
Moreover, there are no "rules of reading" in English. They are rather the rules of the transition from Middle English sounds to Modern English sounds in different positions, with a lot of age-old mistakes and loans from another languages.
Yea, I know British people pronounce the o a lot but anyway, my point was basically, that you could call it akaniye, since it is written with O but pronounce like A pretty much like in Russian, so I just wanted to point out, that there is such a thing in english too, may be than the Russian akaniye will be easier to understand?
Russian also has a Schwa sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Propp
If you put together all the vowel sound of all the dialects of English there would be soooo many.
Vowel reduciton does occur in English. Vowels reduce to Schwa though.
E.g. the word Photograph. Because the stress falls on the initial O, the second O is pronounced with less emphasis and reduced to a schwa.
Sofa. Because the O is stressed, the final a isn't pronounced clearly.
Yes, I told only about vowels in the stressed position. That's why it cannot be named "аканье"as Remyisme suggested, because аканье occurs only in unstressed positions.
I think that the majority of vowels in English in unstressed positions turn to shwa, or reduced "i", or come to zero sound altogether. Inthis respect English is similar to Russian and differs from the languages where all vowels are strong in all positions.
Akan'ye and Ikan'ye don't exist in Ukrainian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Propp
Akan'ye and Ikan'ye don't exist in many Russian regions also.Quote:
Originally Posted by TATY
We have to learn them anyway if we want to speak. If it is written the same way, we don't have to learn it in two different ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Propp