the letter X

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February 22nd, 2006, 05:07 PM
Rounder22

the letter X

Ive posted about this before months ago.. but im still having problems with it... I listened to the letter X on this site on the webpage with the alphabet and to me it sounds like "Tsah" or "Zah" when pronounced.. is that correct? because also i had other people tell me when pronounced it should sound like a coarse "Hah" .... any help is appreciated... I should of mastered the cyrillic alphabet months ago but i rarely have time to study... and rarely see my russian friend to get help from her since she is busy with school and work...
February 22nd, 2006, 06:35 PM
Rtyom

Funny. Your'e muddled up by your ears. It's only "hah", as you said. With heavy air flow form your lungs.
February 23rd, 2006, 06:12 AM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Funny. Your'e muddled up by your ears. It's only "hah", as you said. With heavy air flow form your lungs.

Heavy Airflow doesn't really explain the difference between English H and Russian X. I can say an English H with heavy airflow and it doesn't sound anything like a Russian X, more like a Ukrainian Г infact.
February 23rd, 2006, 06:57 AM
Leof

I wonder when English write HAHAHAHAHAHAHA does it mean they say that close to Russian X (Xa)?
February 23rd, 2006, 07:11 AM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leof

I wonder when English write HAHAHAHAHAHAHA does it mean they say that close to Russian X (Xa)?

No.
February 23rd, 2006, 07:26 AM
Leof

:(
February 23rd, 2006, 01:24 PM
Rtyom

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Funny. Your'e muddled up by your ears. It's only "hah", as you said. With heavy air flow form your lungs.

Heavy Airflow doesn't really explain the difference between English H and Russian X. I can say an English H with heavy airflow and it doesn't sound anything like a Russian X, more like a Ukrainian Г infact.

The difference in the friction force. With Russian [х], the airflow ups more intense and you feel the strong friction. Maybe there is something else.
February 23rd, 2006, 06:46 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Funny. Your'e muddled up by your ears. It's only "hah", as you said. With heavy air flow form your lungs.

Heavy Airflow doesn't really explain the difference between English H and Russian X. I can say an English H with heavy airflow and it doesn't sound anything like a Russian X, more like a Ukrainian Г infact.

The difference in the friction force. With Russian [х], the airflow ups more intense and you feel the strong friction. Maybe there is something else.

It's the friction. Russian X has a much more closed, and closed at a different place vocal tract, creating greater friction.

English H is also a frictive, but it's there is a lot less friction noticable. H is a glottal frictive, that's like right at the end of the vocal tract. The glotis is the flap that separates the trachea ( wind pipe) from the osophegus ( food pipe). X is a Velar frictive, that the friction is between the back of the tongue and the top of the mouth. So you can see there is quite a distance between where the two letters are pronounced. Ukrainian Г is generally considered to be a voiced English H, so another glottal frictive.

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Su.../ipa_chart.gif

The horizontal axis represents the vocal tract from a side view, so the Bilabial column is the lips, then dental is a teath, alveolar is the ridge behind the teeth, Postalalveolar is like the roof of the mouth, Palatal is the soft palate. Uvular is that dangely bit at the back at the back of the mouth. Glotal is at the glotis which is down the thoat.

So Russian X is IPA /x/ and English H is IPA /h/, so you can see there is actually quite a large phonetic difference between the two.

X is basically a frictive of K.
February 24th, 2006, 01:09 AM
kalinka_vinnie

:? I think your chart is upside-down
February 24th, 2006, 01:17 AM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

:? I think your chart is upside-down

What
February 24th, 2006, 01:40 AM
kalinka_vinnie

In other words: :puzzled:
February 24th, 2006, 07:28 AM
Rtyom

I know the basics, or else I'm not even a tad of a linguist. But thanks for the charts, it's of use.
February 24th, 2006, 01:35 PM
BabaYaga

Quote:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

:? I think your chart is upside-down

:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Now look what you made me do!! *wipes coffee from keyboard and screen*

Thanks Taty - I had that chart somewhere back when the animals still spake - but it got lost in one of many moves..... good to have it again :)
February 24th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Lampada

В этой песне есть слово "хохотун" и многие "г" Высоц.кий произносит как "х".

http://vv.nexus.org/vv/14/vv14_07.mp3

Лукоморья больше нет (Антисказка)

Лукоморья больше нет,
От дубов простыл и след.
Дуб годится на паркет —
так ведь нет:
Выходили из избы
Здоровенные жлобы,
Порубили все дубы
на гробы.

Ты уймись, уймись, тоска
У меня в груди!
Это — только присказка,
Сказка — впереди.

Распрекрасно жить в домах
На куриных на ногах,
Но явился всем на страх
Вертопрах.
Добрый молодец он был:
Бабку Ведьму подпоил,
Ратный подвиг совершил —
дом спалил.

Ты уймись, уймись, тоска
У меня в груди!
Это — только присказка,
Сказка — впереди.

Тридцать три богатыря
Порешили, что зазря
Берегли они царя
и моря:
Каждый взял себе надел,
Кур завёл — и в ём сидел,
Охраняя свой удел
не у дел.

Ободрав зелёный дуб,
Дядька ихний сделал сруб,
С окружающими туп
стал и груб —
И ругался день-деньской
Бывший дядька их морской,
Хоть имел участок свой
под Москвой.

Ты уймись, уймись, тоска
У меня в груди!
Это — только присказка,
Сказка — впереди.

Здесь и вправду ходит Кот,
Как направо — так поёт,
Как налево — так загнёт
анекдот.
Но учёный, сукин сын:
Цепь златую снёс в торгсин
И на выручку — один
в магазин.

Как-то раз за божий дар
Получил он гонорар:
В Лукоморье перегар —
на гектар!
Но хватил его удар!
И чтоб избегнуть божьих кар,
Кот диктует про татар
мемуар.

Ты уймись, уймись, тоска
У меня в груди!
Это — только присказка,
Сказка — впереди.

И Русалка — вот дела! —
Честь не долго берегла
И однажды, как смогла,
родила —
Тридцать три же мужика
Не желают знать сынка,
Пусть считается пока
сын полка.

Как-то раз один Колдун —
Врун,
болтун
и хохотун —
Предложил ей как знаток
дамских струн:
Мол, Русалка, всё пойму
И с дитём тебя возьму...
И пошла она к ему,
как в тюрьму.

А бородатый Черномор,
Лукоморский первый вор, —
Он давно Людмилу спёр,
ох хитёр!
Ловко пользуется, тать,
Тем, что может он летать:
Зазеваешься — он хвать
и тикать.

Ты уймись, уймись, тоска
У меня в груди!
Это — только присказка,
Сказка — впереди.

А ковёрный самолёт
Сдан в музей в запрошлый год —
Любознательный народ
так и прёт!
И без опаски старый хрыч
Баб ворует, хнычь не хнычь.
Ох, скорей его разбей
паралич!

"Нету мочи, нету сил! —
Леший как-то недопил,
Лешачиху свою бил
и вопил:
— Дай рубля, прибью а то!
Я добытчик али кто?!
А не дашь, тады пропью
долото!"

"Я ли ягод не носил?! —
Снова Леший голосил. —
А коры по скольку кил
приносил!
Надрывался издаля —
Всё твоей забавы для,
Ты ж жалеешь мне рубля.
Ах ты, тля!"

И невиданных зверей,
Дичи всякой — нету ей:
Понаехало за ней
егерей...
Так что, значит, не секрет:
Лукоморья больше нет,
Всё, о чём писал поэт, —
это бред.

Ты уймись, уймись, тоска,
Душу мне не рань!
Раз уж это — присказка,
Значит сказка — дрянь.
February 24th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Rtyom

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabaYaga

somewhere back when the animals still spake

Is that an idiom or a one-time phrase?
February 24th, 2006, 08:40 PM
basurero

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rtyom

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabaYaga

somewhere back when the animals still spake

Is that an idiom or a one-time phrase?

I'm guessing the latter.
February 27th, 2006, 05:32 PM
Rounder22

so how is X pronounced then in simplest terms without a chart about our body parts in our throats lol ... :o :roll:
February 28th, 2006, 12:08 AM
kalinka_vinnie

It sounds like you are trying to clear your throat.
February 28th, 2006, 03:03 AM
basurero

It sounds like when a little kid simulates the sound of a jet engine.
March 13th, 2006, 12:05 AM
Rounder22

so a combination of American "H" and "K"? ...
March 13th, 2006, 12:23 AM
TATY

It's pronounced at the part of the mouth where you'd say a K, but instead you say an H.
March 13th, 2006, 04:23 AM
Dimitri

Quote:

В этой песне есть слово "хохотун" и многие "г" Высоц.кий произносит как "х".

Это он, наверное, произносит как мягкое украинское "г"
March 15th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Rounder22

so in other words it sounds like the "Ch" in the word Character? ... :(
March 15th, 2006, 04:37 PM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounder22

so in other words it sounds like the "Ch" in the word Character? ... :(

No!

Because Ch in Character is pronounced the same as the C in Cat, and K in King.

Just listen to a recording of it.
March 20th, 2006, 04:07 PM
lacechka

you basically release air harder and faster but it doesn't come from your throat. It doesn't really sound like your clearing your throat. Just "heh". Kind of raspy. You force air out of your mouth a lil harder than you would with a regular "h" sound.
March 22nd, 2006, 06:56 PM
Rounder22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacechka

you basically release air harder and faster but it doesn't come from your throat. It doesn't really sound like your clearing your throat. Just "heh". Kind of raspy. You force air out of your mouth a lil harder than you would with a regular "h" sound.

Thank you i will try it... I sent you a PM because i wanted to discuss russian more if that is ok? ...
March 22nd, 2006, 11:39 PM
Darobat

Say a 'k' but keep the air flowing after you say the letter (don't move your tongue). That static-like sound is what 'x' sounds like, except it doesn't have the 'k' sound at the front
March 23rd, 2006, 02:50 AM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounder22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacechka

you basically release air harder and faster but it doesn't come from your throat. It doesn't really sound like your clearing your throat. Just "heh". Kind of raspy. You force air out of your mouth a lil harder than you would with a regular "h" sound.

Thank you i will try it... I sent you a PM because i wanted to discuss russian more if that is ok? ...

Discuss Russian eh? More like you want to cyber touch her.
March 23rd, 2006, 02:52 AM
TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darobat

Say a 'k' but keep the air flowing after you say the letter (don't move your tongue). That static-like sound is what 'x' sounds like, except it doesn't have the 'k' sound at the front

Good explanation :D Although I'm not sure if it will work. I imagine people will drop the tongue down.
March 23rd, 2006, 06:50 AM
basurero

We need a recording to end this once and for all...

Dimitri, where are you?
March 23rd, 2006, 06:53 AM
Dimitri

Quote:

Originally Posted by basurero

We need a recording to end this once and for all...

Dimitri, where are you?

я тут )) что надо записать то? :о)
March 23rd, 2006, 06:58 AM
basurero

Надо записать букву "х"....
March 23rd, 2006, 06:59 AM
Dimitri

Букву "х"? ну вот, пожалуйста %)
March 23rd, 2006, 06:59 AM
Rtyom

Quote:

Originally Posted by basurero

Надо записать букву "х"....

Звук, а не букву. :)
March 24th, 2006, 03:04 AM
Rounder22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TATY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rounder22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacechka

you basically release air harder and faster but it doesn't come from your throat. It doesn't really sound like your clearing your throat. Just "heh". Kind of raspy. You force air out of your mouth a lil harder than you would with a regular "h" sound.

Thank you i will try it... I sent you a PM because i wanted to discuss russian more if that is ok? ...

Discuss Russian eh? More like you want to cyber touch her.

Nope.. discussed russian... asked her about a idea i have to learn the Cyrillic alphabet and if she was into metal music because she is flashing the sign of the horns in her pic.. you can ask her... anyways everytime i hear a recording the sound is different on each recording for X ...