Да побузят и успокоятся.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
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Да побузят и успокоятся.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Да прямо так и успокоятся)). Блажен, кто верует)).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
После референдума Крым станет субъектом международного права и при необходимости прекратит “по сигналу свыше” договорные отношения с Киевом. А пока останется территорией Украины, подчиняющейся законно избранному президенту Януковичу. МВФ вряд ли даст кредит самопровозглашенному правительству, не осуществляющему полный контроль над собственной территорией, в стране, где вполне вероятно ведение боевых действий. И придется Обаме изобретатьвелосипедспособы, как изыскать 30-40 млрд. долларов, которые в дальнейшем вполне возможно никто никогда не вернет. Ведь в случае поражения майдана его долги по всем стандартам будут признаны нелегитимными. Игра называется “Украинская рулетка”, а ставки принимаются на желтое или синее))) Шансы на успех - фифти-фифти.
А между тем, в замке у Шефа..
Quote:
Originally Posted by www.bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/02/140227_crimea_parliament.shtml
До мая много времени ещё. К тому же, насколько я понимаю, на референдуме вопрос будет ставиться технически не об отделении а об расширении статуса автономии. Нюанс, всё-таки. Насколько могу судить, восток Украины не больно то поднимает бучу. Притихли и сидят, ждут, чем дело обернётся.
Россия сегодня, кстати, официально назвала Януковича действующим президентом и предоставила ему убежище, что "какбе" намекает новым властям Украины, что договориться будет непросто. Но возможно.
Вот чуть юмора, дабы разбавить (нецензурщина):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UsGjzJSZ9o#t=45
Ибо расширение - понятние растяжимое. Парламент в Симферополе oчень осторожен. Всё-ж таки страшновато оказаться между китом и слоном.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Oh, I see you really wish Ukrainans a happy future considering how a typical Right Sector guy behaves (the guy in the cap):Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVZCTPeMsk0
In general I feel really sad after seeing what is happening in Ukraine now. I was there last time this January (at New Year holidays) and things were still relatively calm back then, at least at places there I was (Sumy and Chernigov oblasts). Damn, all this situation affects me pesonally because my kids usually spend summer at my mother-in-law's house in Ukrainian rural area. But after nazis came to power I'm afraid to even bring them to Ukrainian soil. Now I'll have to pay for summer camp for my son and for sanatorium for my wife and daughter in upcoming summer. Thanks, maidan imbeciles. I hope you'll all burn in hell.
This "typical Right Sector guy" is no other than Alexander Muzychko, who fought on the side of terrorists during the Chechnya campaign and is known for some other "feats". Today this piece of arrogant violence lectures Ukrainian police forces how to behave.
/* sarcastic mode on */Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Oh, why? Haven't you noticed that some 'intelligencia' in Lvov assures they like Russians and nothing bad will happen to Russians in Ukraine? Why are you judging the situation based on the actions of the dubious individuals? You know, every righteous movement would have their idiots and bandits, what makes you undermine the whole movement of the Ukrainians for the better future? Lvov 'intelligencia' assured you nothing bad would happen, so that is exactly what's going to happen, since, as you know, it is Lvov 'intelligencia' which are the true rules of the renewed Ukraine!
/* sarcastic mode off */
I understand you irony but my mood for seeing the situation in Ukraine with humor has gone since violent deaths occured there as the result of all these affairs. My mother-in-law tells that their oblast center recently got "visitors" from Lvov who captured regional goverment and police and command them what to do, are stopping cars with Russian plates at streets and openly rob people in them, several days ago they turned on the roof a shuttle-bus with people in it (there were small children among these people in bus) and other scary stories. They are not seem funny for me at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Oh so sad.... let me cry some tears that you won't go for vacation there. What is typical is your selfish, egocentric attitude. Where are the nazis that are in power? The ones getting appointed Government positions are all pro-EU liberals. The candidates will all be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Furthermore, if they get official power and sign EU contracts, part of that will be to outlaw the actions of Right sector and any right-wing groups. I am sure you prefer the incumbent regime's method of dealing with opposition and problematic individuals, shooting them, phony trials and imprisonment, torture and the list goes on. It is one of the reasons that the entire conflict escalated.
But, you are whining that it might not be a good time to send kiddies there. Well, many people in Ukraine are looking after wounded, trying to find jobs and need to clean up their country. I'm sad to hear that you don't think you can send anyone there for vacation. I see this place is still populated by mostly neo-Soviet Putinist apologists.
I'm sad because the plague which was infesting relatively small remote region of Lvov, Ivano-Frankovsk and Ternopol is now spreading to the whole country populated mostly by very nice, friendly people and quickly turning it into pretty dangerous place. But I see no way you can understand this so there is no point discussing with you. Have a nice day.Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
Ну да, и свежие законопроекты об упрощеной выдаче паспортов и порядке присоединения к РФ новых территорий никак с Крымом не связаны)). Свежо предание, да верится с трудом)). Крым – уже отрезанный ломоть))Quote:
До мая много времени ещё. К тому же, насколько я понимаю, на референдуме вопрос будет ставиться технически не об отделении а об расширении статуса автономии. Нюанс, всё-таки.
Ну потому что Крым – это преимущественно русские, а юго-восток населяют в основном русскоговорящие украинцы, а между планами “бандерлогов” первых “немножко рэзать” , а вторых “строго перевоспитывать” существует небольшое стилистическое различие. Ну, впрочем, сегодня на прессухе Янукович дал отмашку юго-востоку подниматься после прекращения выплат зарплат, пенсий, пособий. Так что непонятка остается лишь в сроках, а это целиком зависит от того, когда и насколько раскошелится “добрый американский дядюшка”.Quote:
Насколько могу судить, восток Украины не больно то поднимает бучу. Притихли и сидят, ждут, чем дело обернётся.
Честно говоря, думаю, что никакого намека не желание договариваться тут и в помине нет, а просто начата жесткая компания по мобилизации оппозиционного “майдановщине” электората. План Путина - это тебе не хухры-мухры :instruct:Quote:
Россия сегодня, кстати, официально назвала Януковича действующим президентом и предоставила ему убежище, что "какбе" намекает новым властям Украины, что договориться будет непросто Но возможно.
Кстати, дядюшка нынче не добрый. Как я понял, у МВФ денег нет, Силуанов на двадцатке в Сиднее сказал, что де сомневается в способностях МВФ. МВФ кивает на дядю Сэма, а пока раздает кредиты не деньгами, а обещаниями дать денег, когда денег дадут американцы. Американцы особо не торопятся, и их можно понять - "инвестиции" в Украину сейчас, мягко говоря, рискованны.
Вообще, мир современных финансов чуден и удивителен. МВФ дает бумажку, в которой написано, что они, может быть, перечислят по этой бумажке деньги, и предлагают "пока" занять денег в каком-нибудь банке. Банк этот чаще всего оказывается подконтрольным Федеральному резерву, который дает деньги в долг американскому правительству, которое должно как-нибудь потом перечислить деньги в банк ФРС в уплату обязательств по финансированию выдаваемого кредита.
В общем, у меня есть такое чувство, что кредиты МВФ выдает самому себе. А если понятнее, то вероятность получения денег от МВФ Украиной приближается к нулю. Не зря Лагард уже "призвала" Россию, как регионального партнера поучаствовать в судьбе Украины. Это они так намекают, что неплохо бы России взять и компенсировать им за весь тот бардак, который они же и устроили. С европейской непосредственностью.
Him and I are the same nationality, unfortunately he's the victim of propaganda.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
It's been a non-stop Russian bashing feast in our papers the last 15 years, and our foreign minister makes a sport of offending Russia. However a lot of people seem to be taking note now, so it'll hopefully change. But it seems 14Russian has read and believed all this for the last 15 years. Plus everything the US media says and a bunch of random conspiracy theories. Apologies on his behalf.
According to the front page of the main Swedish paper "Russian tanks are rolling in Crimea".
I don't actually believe this - the tanks don't look modern enough to be Russian, and are painted with with amateurish colours. They are saying that Russia invaded Ukrainian airspace and broke the contract for the bases in Simferopol.
I don't believe Russia would do anything that rash at the moment, and I am sure Russia's foreign ministry are going to play this much smarter than this, despite the odds being against. Russia has been impressive in international politics, since Syria.
Are these Russian, and are they breaking the treaty regarding the bases in Krim? They look really old, and why would anyone paint a crude flag on a camouflage vehicle?
Are the front page stories about Russian troop movements in Crimea true or false?
http://d2.dn-static.se/UploadedImage...c/original.jpg
If anything happens, Crimea might try to proclaim independence like some other places done. But I don't think there is any chance Russia will invade or occupy or anything like that. Or?
Рамиль, не пора ли уже составить другой прогноз? Чтоб с попкорном..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Actually these exact APCs (armoured personnel carriers) could be only from our naval base in Sevastopol. See the pair of big vertical tubes in the back? They made to prevent engine from stopping while descending from a carrier ship. AFAIK Ukraine don't have these APCs. I'm eager to hear how Putin is going to explain all these too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I have been reading so much about how Russia is modernising its military, so I thought those looked too old! Then of course. I am no expert...
I read that Russia sent 2000 troops to Crimea just now.
Since I don't know anything about wars I don't know the significance. It doesn't seem enough for any large operation though...
Plus I am aware that anything Russia does will be interpreted and written up in the most negative spin possible.
I'm aware that Crimea could be argued as being "Russian" territory but that many others would not agree.
If Russia does actually go in militarily, then it will change my perception of Russia as a peaceful country. I can certainly understand the reasons for doing it, but Nato, Poland, the Baltics, Scandinavia and others would immediately see that as "proof" of Russia's aggressiveness. So I hope that doesn't happen.
The worst fear would be civil war in Ukraine, and war by proxy between Russia and Nato. What have Russian papers been writing?
Ни один мой прогноз ещё не сбылся. Херовый я политолог. :D Надеюсь, хоть этот сбудется.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crocodile
Тут я кое-что почитал, у Крыма в стратегическом плане есть ещё одна весьма серьёзная проблема - пресная вода.
Водоснабжение осуществляется вот так:
- днепровская вода из Северо-Крымского канала, аккумулируемая в девяти наливных водохранилищах на территории АР Крым;
- вода из крупных водохранилищ естественного сбора, которых в Крыму насчитывается около 20-ти (но не все они являются питьевыми);
- вода артезианских скважин и каптированных источников.
Как я понял, если Северо-Крымский канал перекрыть, то воды будет очень сильно не хватать.
Why should it look new? It's not iPhone, you knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
There's no need in large operation. Russia sends military to control key transport. infrastructure objects and army depots. Looks like Kiev has no loyal troops in Crimea and no way to bring them there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
It's OK. Russia knows, if they blame you - you are doing all rignt, but if they praise you - you should stop and think what's gone wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
If it would be decided on local referendum - there would be no way to deny it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
No way Russia is a peaceful country. People in internet praise every successful military action, taken by russian forces. They somehow know all weapon models, helicopter models, clothes series, modifications and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
The worst fear would be civil war in Ukraine, and war by proxy between Russia and Nato. What have Russian papers been writing?[/QUOTE]
The thing is - civil war in Ukraine is advantageous for Russia. That doesn't mean Russia wants civil war or makes something to begin it. But in that case all eastern regions could be separated from Ukraine.
He's going to conquer the Crimea with these 3 APCs. Seriously though - I think they're from Sevastopol. It's a military naval base, after all and there are bound to be some armored vehicles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Could you elaborate a bit. In what way a civil war in Ukraine will be advantageous for Russia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
Это скорее сельскохозяйственная, нежели гуманитарная проблема. Могут возникнуть проблемы с электроэнергией и связью (один из провайдеров связи - "Укртелеком" - уже объявил, что потерял техническую возможность обеспечивать Киев связью и интернетом.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
В любом случае, подобные действия будут только ожесточать население Крыма.
Вот отключил бы Янукович сотовую связь в центре Киева в январе - и ничего бы этого не было.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
Ой. Не Киев, а Крым. Опечатался.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Russia can act as a peacemaker: take under military control eastern regions, accept refugees from western regions. Then eastern regions initate referendum and separate from Ukraine. Russia gets loyal country or even part of territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
You heard of Pridnestrovie, Kosovo, etc? Nobody won these wars. Thousands of refugees will go through the Ukraninan-Russian border and the locals won't like it. Moreover, rouble will go down, all Russian market will collapse. Our European 'friends' will 'discover' all sorts of military crimes committed by our 'peace-makers'. Trade sanctions will be imposed. We'll have military insurgents committing guerilla attacks not only in Ukraine, but in Russia itself. All Ukrainian infrastructure will be destroyed in the first several weeks. Russia will get ruins and extra several million hungry mouths to feed. I really cannot understand how can you be so blind to not seeing that a civil war in Ukraine will be a disaster. This war should be avoided at all costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suobig
I agree with this. I don't like what is currenltly happening in Crimea at all. Also Putin once again acts like a d!ck by not explaining to public what he is doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
I had been thinking same way few days ago. But after Crimea... Man, I'm impressed! I think Russia can fulfil it's goals in Eastern Ukraine and end civil war quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
It seems to me, that Russia wants to gain control over eastern territories, and, which is more important, eastern territories can allow this to happen - people there are fed up with political and economical chaos and they see it's source in Kiev. So they can start separation process and civil war would make it faster and easier.
And about "peace-makers crimes". Do you remember 8.8.8? Russia invaded other country and vaporized it's military forces. Any trade sanctions? Any military insurgents?
I don't say it won't be a disaster. Civil war - is the worst thing that can happen to any country. All I say - it would make russian positions in eastern part of Ukraine much stronger, and now I'm sure - Russia would use it's chances.
I agree with Ramil and Basil77.
We've already seen this happen before, a few time. We know how everybody involved will react. There are a few possible outcomes, but on the whole it's like a play where the script has already been written.
Plus, as they hint at: There is never any winner in a war! Only weapons manufacturers, political leaders, generals and bankers. Regular people of the countries involved are those who lose out.
Particularly not in these post USSR wars, some regions are still "unrecognised", "breakaway territories". They can't establish legal economies, they become dependent on aid from Russia or blackmarket activities and corruption. I
And Russia has NOT incorporated these places into the Russian Federation even if the population there would probably support it or at least accept it. Instead, Russia has to keep spending money there, to keep up their commitments.
I realise Crimea has strategic importance and is not "any" random territory, like the other breakaway republics.
But why get excited about the prospect of more land for Russia, it's already the biggest country!!
If Russia was directly responsible for ONE single death in Ukraine, then this would be used for an EXTREME propaganda campaign.
It would be absolutely relentless until everybody in Europe was scared to DEATH of Russia and approved of Nato missile launchers all over the place and more American bases. Pathetic that people are such sheeps, but it's true.
Just see how they managed to play the South Ossetia war - it's used by everybody who wants to be paranoid of Russia, or villify it, as an excuse.
And for what gain - do you really care about Crimea, does it MATTER?
I think the people in the Crimea should organise a referendum there asap - invite some human rights or EU observers there to monitor, for international credibilty and have a referendum. If the world knows the opinions of the Crimeans, then how can they object to a truly autonomous region, or an independent state..?
Another option (but I don't like it) is that Russia says "f-ck international opionion, we know what Crimeans want and we'll use our military to make sure they get it, and we keep the bases." However this would play straight into American weapons manufacturers, various nations and others who would love to see Cold War 2.0 and will manipulate any event to lead to that goal.
I agree - RU government should tell people what their plans are - since there are such close ties between the countries, and since everybod realises that Russia will have to choose a course of action. Maybe they are still thinking about it....?
I just read a "hilarious" thing in Swedish media, biggest paper.
Apparently 75 known Swedish neo-Nazis went to Kiev to fight with a movement called Svoboda. (I noticed that there is a new Swedish user to the forum with that nick. Co-incidence...? He ought to learn the Ukrainian language though, I would have thought, not Russian...)
Anyway, this put this paper in a bit of a twist. Because they are AGAINST neo nazis in Sweden, but FOR the nationalist movement in Ukraine. So how do they write the story without contradicting the official line....?
They didn't write very much, just reported that the neo nazis had gone to Kiev and helped the "peaceful protesters" by serving soup (that's a long way to travel just to serve some soup). The alleged neo nazi who was interviewed anonymously said that the Ukrainian nationalists saw Sweden as a particularly bad example of failed immigration and political correctness. Sadly, there is some point to that. They called it "revolution tourism", apparently the same people once visited Belarus for similar reasons
Either way - it's an entertaining dilemma for the paper - they love to keep tabs of what the Neo Nazis do, to criticize it, and suddenly that meant they had to acknowledge that this hated group has links with "freedom" movement which they favour, in Ukraine. So has the Nazis become good, or does this somewhat taint the heroic Svoboda movement? Propaganda can be challenging at times.
They solved the who problem by illustrating the article with a completely un-related picture of Russian nazis carrying a Russian flag, obviously nothing to do with Ukraine. A reader unfamiliar with the events just skimming over the page would still think "bloody Russians".
I googled and found some international coverage in "The Daily Beast" (no idea what kind of paper that might be, something online...)
hmmmm, very torn - I actually agree with some of the points he makes, even though I abhor nazism. Very disturbing. Just a footnote, feel free to ignore. Plus I am not sure it's possible to stand alone and refuse to choose allegiance today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik Hagberg
I can understand why Putin ordered to take control of Crimea without official warnings, UN security consil meetings, etc. Most likely he did this to avoid a single shot, because if it were expected than armed militants from Western Ukraine could arrive there earlier than Russian troops and arrange some violent resistance. But I don't see any solid legal grounds that could back such actions besides permission from Yanukovich who still calls himself a legitimate president. In South Ossetia case our peacekeepers who stationed there by official UN mandate were killed and it's a legitimate reason for intervention but in the Crimea case I don't see such solid ground at all. Of course Crimea means million times more for an average Russian than whole Caucasus region but still... As I already wrote I want to hear an explanation form Putin who is supreme commader of our armed forces.
I still can't believe that the EU was essentially applauding and supporting a coup d'etat against a democratically elected president, just because he didn't want to sign a deal with the EU.
I think my idealism when I supported my country joining the EU may have been misplaced. I had no idea it would turn into this. I thought it was about peacekeeping and solidarity between the regions. Right now I would feel much better if I was NOT an EU citizen. But for example Nowegian or Swiss.
And looking at Romania as a comparison I am actually not at all sure that EU membership would do anything for Ukraine. Romania is still corrupt and poor, more so than Ukraine, as far as I could tell.
Joining the EU will open the maket for European goods without any restrictions. Domestic industry will succumb immediately and will be replaced by imports. Same with the agricultural goods. And nobody didn't even guarantee Ukrain the membership. This one-sided 'association' will do nothing to help the Ukraininan economy.
Андрей Макаревич:
11:46 / 28.02.14 302849просмотров
"Про мерзость
Я переживаю за события на Украине. Но гораздо сильнее я переживаю по поводу того, что творится в этой связи у нас. Не покидает ощущение того, что наша власть полагает: страна, народ — это те, кто им управляет. Однако если правитель не слышит своего народа и при этом насилует его, народ его сметает. Так что на Украине произошла самая типичная революция, и при всей моей нелюбви к революциям я не могу назвать ее несправедливой. И теперь можно сколько угодно хлопать крыльями, называть восставших граждан «коричневой чумой» — выглядит это омерзительно.
Такой разнузданной пропаганды и такого количества вранья я не припомню с лучших брежневских времен. Да и то не сравнить: возможностей тогда было меньше. Ребята, вы чего добиваетесь? Создания общественного мнения для ввода войск на территорию суверенного государства? Оттяпать Крым?
ЦК КПСС, вводя войска в Чехословакию, с народом не советовался. И что, кроме того что обосрались на весь мир? Вот сегодня две страны вместо одной. И что, где первая, где вторая? Получили мы их любовь? Или что-то еще?
А ведь уже удалось зазомбировать довольно большое количество идиотов и просто неучей с нестабильной психикой. Уже рвутся с оружием в руках спасать русскоязычное население — как бы оно к этому взывает. А они и поверили. Ребята в телевизоре, вы чего добиваетесь? Надолго рассорить два народа, живущих бок о бок? У вас получается. А чем это кончается, знаете? Войну с Украиной захотели? Так, как с Абхазией, не выйдет: ребята на Майдане уже закалились и знают, за что бьются, — за свою страну, за свою независимость. А мы за что? За Януковича?
Ребята, зачем вы спрятали его в России? Честный человек не будет укрывать преступника и вора. А вор — будет. Зачем вы себя позорите перед человечеством? Я знаю, что вам наплевать, но все-таки?
Конечно, на Украине наделали массу глупостей — с русским языком, со сносом памятников. Но такие глупости неизбежно сопровождают любую революцию — пружина разгибается в обратную сторону. А потом все встает на места — глупость не может длиться вечно.
Ребята, нам с ними жить. По-прежнему по соседству. И желательно в дружбе. А как им жить, они решат сами.
Или пострелять захотелось? Говорят, патриотизм укрепляет.
Ненадолго."
I know virtually everyone here are neo-Soviet Putinists or at least status quo except for some left-wing liberals (and Communists) but Right Sector personnel have demonstrated themselves to be EU stooges in the media lately. So, this entire situation is hopeless. They're not right-wing nor nazis. So, you can all relax now.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBaldhead
Ukraine is F*cked and I can see why mods or no Ukrainians posted now. They are content with the changes. Neo-Soviet Russia trying to control Crimea and what's left of their influence and on the other side, the EU/USA/UN and Israel (of course) with their tentacles so this 'revolution' is a farce. Shoulda seen it. :(
^^^^^^ Да. Правильно. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Apparently there are now 6000 newly arrived Russian soldiers in Crimea.
Hm... It seems they are welcomed by the locals...
My prediction is that Crimea will try to proclaim independence, eventually.
I think they probably had enough of the insecurity and general chaos of Ukrainian politics.
I guess it doesn't matter massively to them, what the world thinks of it, because isn't the economy almost completely around military, agriculture and tourism from ex USSR? In that case, I guess they have nothing to lose and quite a lot to win.
Meanwhile the same shit happens in Venezuela.
Rumors says that China and Russia sent aircraft carriers "Admiral Kuznetsov" and "Shi Lang-07" for "joint exercises".
Let's wait for official info.
ZOG mode on
Meanwhile there are messages about homicides among high rank commanders in the USA.
Such as Navy Commander and Attorney General.
Is it truth?
Is Ukraine a distraction from coup-d'etat in the USA? :)
ZOG mode off
They could say that referendum's results were forged, for example.Quote:
I think the people in the Crimea should organise a referendum there asap - invite some human rights or EU observers there to monitor, for international credibilty and have a referendum. If the world knows the opinions of the Crimeans, then how can they object to a truly autonomous region, or an independent state..?