о ком Путин говорит?

I was reading Putin's Address To The Nation in the wake of the Beslan disaster, and spotted some interesting insinuations that haven't been picked up on, especially in our esteemed Western press.

The following is taken from

http://president.kremlin.ru/eng/index.shtml ,

(full text here)

so I am assuming that the English translation is accurate and trustworthy. For those of you who's Russian is better than mine and who want to check for themselves the Russian text can be found here.

The bold is mine, by the way...

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In general, we need to admit that we did not fully understand the complexity and the dangers of the processes at work in our own country and in the world. In any case, we proved unable to react adequately. We showed ourselves to be weak. And the weak get beaten.

Some would like to tear from us a “juicy piece of pie”. Others help them. They help, reasoning that Russia still remains one of the world’s major nuclear powers, and as such still represents a threat to them. And so they reason that this threat should be removed.

Terrorism, of course, is just an instrument to achieve these aims.

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So, who is/are 'them' then?

So called "Al-Quaeda", and the guys behind these terrorist networks.
(And I'm almost sure the Saudis are behind... it's not a big secret anyway...)

I think it's the culmination of all his speach. And... Yes, I think your guess (I believe you have one) is right. That's what JJ speaks about in other threads and that's what is obvious for many Russians long ago.

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Originally Posted by scotcher

So, who is/are 'them' then?

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So, we're back to the question "Who got the profit of the world terrorism?" :)

Yesterday I heard the speech and I got nothing... there is only a stream of right words.

PS I saw many of tv channels and I was amazed when BBC made really wrong translations of interviews. I could call that as a lie.

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Originally Posted by BETEP

Yesterday I heard the speech and I got nothing... there is only a stream of right words.

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In my opinion Putin is beginning to get more and more like Gorby. Many words and no real actions. Putin himself is kind of PR-product. Numerous opinion polls scan peoples wishes and Putin tries never say something that people don't like and at the same time never say something that explains his position on fundamentals.

But yesterday I was a bit surprised by his broad hint. Nevertheless I think the West could sleep securely. Putin is not Stalin :wink: and is not a man of action. Just talker.

@N: Nevertheless it was your choice.

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Originally Posted by BETEP

@N: Nevertheless it was your choice.

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it? or he?

If you mean Putin he wasn't mine. Have never voted for him.

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Originally Posted by N

it? or he?

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Choice is always 'it'. :)

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Originally Posted by N

If you mean Putin he wasn't mine. Have never voted for him.

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May be it is not your personal choice but overwhelming majority gave him a vote. I don't like the situation where is no choice.

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Originally Posted by BETEP

I don't like the situation where is no choice.

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In my opinion this situation calls a 'democracy'. Market+'democracy' i.e. Western type of democracy. Money is winner not people. You have money - you have power, you have mass media and you always win. You do not win an election - you buy an election. And it doesn't matter which party will win since you have money and able to buy everyone. Since 1996 I haven't voted at all. That's useless.

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Originally Posted by JJ

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Originally Posted by scotcher

So, who is/are 'them' then?

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So, we're back to the question "Who got the profit of the world terrorism?" :)

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We'll, obviously not america, who, by the way lost billions of dollars on 9/11. And also lost billions more dollars fighting in afghanastan, and iraq. So yea. I hope you're not talking about america, because, yea.

It is naive to think that the "chain of command" stops at your countries President, no matter what that country happens to be. I read where one Russian President used to refer to those who controlled wold pollitics as "The magicians". I can't remember if it was Kruchev or Breznev.

>So, who is/are 'them' then?

а это смотря где ты сам

если в россии - то это, очевидно, "враги народа" (внутри страны) и "запад" (снаружи)

http://mina.ru/posters/soviet/79.jpg

если в сша - то такие главные из мирового еврейства,
которые в соответствии с conspiracy theory рулят
средствами масс-медиа, корпорациями, выборами и хз что там у них ещё

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

We'll, obviously not america,

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Why not? Because it is obviosly not America?

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who, by the way lost billions of dollars on 9/11. And also lost billions more dollars fighting in afghanastan, and iraq.

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Actually the economic always grows up if the war is not on your territory. It means at least a new job in weapon industry for millions people. So, it is logical to lost some billions and then to get hundreds billions.

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So yea. I hope you're not talking about america, because, yea.

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No, Dogboy, I'm talking about the USA. So what? If I see that it is profitable for Putin so I'd talk about Putin (actually, this situation is profitable for him too to reorganize KGB/police, for example, but he had enough power and right situation to make it a couple of years earlier if he wished it, but he didn't). I see my explanation doesn't suit you. Ok, then you tell me who's got a profit from these acts of terrorism.

Actaully under george bush we have lost more jobs than any president in 75 years. And we are down like 1.5 million jobs since clinton left. So, obviously we are not doing well on the job front either (my mom lost her job, actually).

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

my mom lost her job, actually.

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It means that you mom didn't work in weapon industry.

LOL... Boeing ?

If that's not weapons i dont know what is.

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Originally Posted by QWERTYZ

если в россии - то это, очевидно, "враги народа" (внутри страны) и "запад" (снаружи)

http://mina.ru/posters/soviet/79.jpg

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Good poster! :D

That's what actually happened on the Russian Presidential elections in 1996 when antagonistic oligarchs united facing danger to all of them. There is no secret they spent billions on Yeltsin advertising and the money had won.

And no need in conspiracy theory. So goes the world.

Actually..... I thought yelstin won, because the other guy was a 2 foot tall communist?

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

LOL... Boeing ?

If that's not weapons i dont know what is.

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:lol: Oops, Looks like I'm wrong this time. :)

=). Now she works for some metal company... for pennies an hour.

Im sure that somehow, some of the metal they sell goes to make weapons, but for the most part, they just sell to old men who need to patch holes in their fishing boats.

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Originally Posted by N

In my opinion this situation calls a 'democracy'. Market+'democracy' i.e. Western type of democracy. Money is winner not people. You have money - you have power, you have mass media and you always win. You do not win an election - you buy an election. And it doesn't matter which party will win since you have money and able to buy everyone. Since 1996 I haven't voted at all. That's useless.

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First of all, democracy and "democracy" are two big differences as Odesits say. :) Second of all, election is a one of tools which people can control their country. Russian people don't trust in law because it doesn't work properly, but it happens because they vote for nothing. I have never heard clear programme of Russian political party. Russians want not trust in calculations, they want to trust in miracle. May be it's a stuff of big industrial countries where people too far from administration and each next day reminds previous. PR money is working when you have nothing to lose otherwise you think about your personal interest.

CNN story

I have a bad habit to breakfast and to see TV. In the Monday I saw CNN channel (something about Ohio financial crises). There was an interview and reporter asked the question "Why you don't blame the government and president?" The response was "Because we don't change horses in the middle of the river". I was really shocked. I'll explain for them who haven't seen the movie "Wag the dog". The president of US was going to be re-elected and some guys made an action on TV. First squad make a virtual war with Albania but second squad make a common commercials with the slogan "don't change horses in the middle of the river".

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Originally Posted by BETEP

First of all, democracy and "democracy" are two big differences as Odesits say. :)

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Agreed. But I think democracy exists nowhere.

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Originally Posted by BETEP

Second of all, election is a one of tools which people can control their country.

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That's right but they 'can control' something only in theory.

In real life ordinary people have no real choice. While members of elite of society in this game play against each other for exquisite morsels of a pie (and we are free to choose betwen them), the elite as a whole, as owner of all big money, mass media etc plays against those ordinary people. Elites will not share their profits and power with anyone.

This game in 'democracy' is a playing with cheats who have all trumps.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by N

Agreed. But I think democracy exists nowhere.

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I disagree. The democracy is only a tool, and it's not a solution.
I know we have problem not because democracy doesn't work but because people make a wrong choice. I see the same problem in Russia but there are also other problems. Russia has only one stable source of income - raw resource export. IMHO, Russian oil and gas are a disaster for Russian politics and economics and the money doesn't improve high technology production because this kind of business is not gainful in Russia because economics is directed to resource export.

Let's get it straight. THE USA IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE WORLD PROBLEMS!!!! No person or government in any part of the world is responsible for their own mistakes or poor choices. Terrorism, war, famine, AIDS, cancer, poverty, unrest and unhappiness are all America's fault. The world would be a wonderful place if we could just blow the whole continent off the face of the earth.
So all of you who are blaming the US for Russia's problems need to start working right now and get every trace of America out of your country. Start with all the loans and bailout $ we send to Russia. Flush it down the toilet along with all the American products sold in Russia, all the American TV shows and movies, all the music and books. Next get all that English off your advertisements and media. Stop all those English classes in the schools and ban the teaching of Russian to Americans. Don't forget to revoke all the business visas you gave to Americans and shut down every company that is based in America, heavy fines for anyone who does business with America. Reeducation camp would be a good idea for all those brides advertising for an American husband and the mixed marriages that exist should be immediately annuled, deport the American spouses. :roll:

I'm working on it :P

Seriously though JB, who do you think Putin is talking about?

JB

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need to start working right now

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:roll: преувеличиваешь. Во всем кроме языка и фильмов рулит германия - по количеству кредитов, товарообороту, ихним фирмам тут и т д :wink:
А вот если россия перестанет покупать американскую курятину :lol:

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Originally Posted by JB

So all of you who are blaming the US for Russia's problems need to start working right now and get every trace of America out of your country. Start with all the loans and bailout $ we send to Russia.

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I thought if I give a loan to someone it is a very profitable business for me, but you said it is a great help. :o BTW, could you tell us in details what the bailout, to whom, what for etc the US sent.

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Actaully under george bush we have lost more jobs than any president in 75 years. And we are down like 1.5 million jobs since clinton left. So, obviously we are not doing well on the job front either (my mom lost her job, actually).

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Yours too?

I'm thinking about becoming an undertaker. A bit depressing, but at least it's a growth profession.

JJ, look into www.usaid.ru for a view of some of the present programs US government has in Russia. Also check out the history section and the web for info on billions of $ America gave (grants, not loans) to Russia in the 1990's.
Russia takes the cash and lets the USA stick her red white and blue nose in every kind of Russian business. And the reason USA gives $ is obviously so America can influence Russian politics and economy (under the guise of "America's tradition of humanitarian aid." So I find it amusing that Putin screams for America to mind our own business. I also find it irritating that when Russia has a problem it's America's fault. I hear this on Moscow TV, in the metro, at the office, and in newspapers and the web. Both from the politicians and general public.
Now do big powers with political agendas finance and benefit from terrorism? Probably. Did America benefit from the latest terrorist attacks on Russia? I don't think so, but maybe somebody can prove me wrong. Did Putin benefit from the latest terrorist attacks on Russia? Check out this weeks headlines on Putin's proposed new laws to centralize his power.

And as for Bush's legs, you still have Col. Sander's which serves pure poison!

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Originally Posted by JB

JJ, look into www.usaid.ru....

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I'll reply to you later about this, I have to read this site carefully.

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Now do big powers with political agendas finance and benefit from terrorism? Probably. Did America benefit from the latest terrorist attacks on Russia? I don't think so, but maybe somebody can prove me wrong.

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Just read the USA conception "The grand chessboard" by Zbigniew Brzezinski, there are all answers on your qwestions. Everything is going according to Brzezinski conseption.

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Did Putin benefit from the latest terrorist attacks on Russia? Check out this weeks headlines on Putin's proposed new laws to centralize his power.

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He didn't because Putin has occasions for it for many times during last several years. And he did nothing then.

I've read usaid.com so... First, there is no big USA aid. Look into http://www.usaid.ru..../en/main/activit ... ty_descr=1 Average amount of aid is about $199 million a years. What does it mean? It means there is no help! I'll try to show you what i mean. I live in a SMALL town (180 000 population) we have about 10 big works here. The average salary in my town is about $250. The amount of workers in industry is about 45 000 people. So only industry workers salary is about $11 250 000 a month, it means about $135 million a year. The tax is 13% so the goverment gets about $17.6 million only from industry of my town. Let's count services, the services is about 59% of all economic here, i've taken it from cia world fact book. So just 5-6 small towns give the same money like the USAID, and I even didn't mention about the taxes paid by works and factories... Btw, there are more than 1000 towns in russia. My town is 97th in Russia town's rating. So the all help is less than 1% of what Russia makes for itself.

Now lets find out what USAID spends money for...
to be continued....

I tried to got on your link but it wouldn't work.
Now to explain USAID;
This government organization does not provide all the money to do their work. You are correct that $199mil is a drop in the bucket compared to what it will buy in such a large country as Russia. But 100% funding of projects (or even developing projects) is not the goal of USAID. Read the section on their goals and mission and you will see that they are promoting a political agenda under the guise of humanitarianism. The money they provide via grants is SEED money. Each grant has a set of rules and requirements that promote their agenda. Now look under the partners section and see some of the companies who are currently recipients of these grants. Some are humanitarian groups and may actually be able to fund their project on the tiny bit they get from USAID. But this is not likely for the majority who bring in their own money (all sorts of tax write offs and government benefits) and get all the other money they need from other grants, loans, and or investors. If you research each of these companies and their finances you will see billions of dollars going into Russia. (I have not done this investigation personally as it would take every hour of every day for a long time, but I have seen the results of others' research in the financial news that estimates US $s to Russia in the billions) These programs benefit their host companies but also benefit the people of Russia. The only catch is that to get the $ you risk the effects of the propoganda that comes with it.