Еще один сторонник Березовского вдруг отравился!

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Well, I'm not giving up yet. I really want to understand the logic behind this thinking, and maybe, just maybe, they will see the disconnect and if not correct themselves, at least have a deeper appreciation for why westerners get frustrated with Russia as a whole :wink:

After all it is a learning process for me too, because they too have good points about Western biasness.

But thinking Scotland Yard would cover up some kind of Berezovsky involvement is sheer and utter ridiculousness with heavy gravy! Scorpio, if you could explain that to me, who knows, maybe I am wrong?

(If a man says that he might be wrong, you can be darn sure that he thinks he is not (c) somebody I forget)

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Simple. I'll explain.
Rule of law (and separation of power) does not exist => Berezovsky was allowed to live in Britain over Russian objections due to specific orders from someone important => that important person likes Berezovsky (or perhaps finds him instrumental in his plot to destroy Russia) => since he controls all aspects of British society (like the mainstream press, the Scotland yard, the courts, etc) and likes Berezovsky, he is not going to let Sc.y. to investigate him -- pretty logical, once you make a few assumptions, no? :):)

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Originally Posted by laxxy

Simple. I'll explain.
Rule of law (and separation of power) does not exist => Berezovsky was allowed to live in Britain over Russian objections due to specific orders from someone important => that important person likes Berezovsky (or perhaps finds him instrumental in his plot to destroy Russia) => since he controls all aspects of British society (like the mainstream press, the Scotland yard, the courts, etc) and likes Berezovsky, he is not going to let Sc.y. to investigate him -- pretty logical, once you make a few assumptions, no? :):)

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Well, I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth if you don't mind :lol:

(figuratively speaking guys, I am not saying anyone resembles a horse or even it's mouth)

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

Так за чем же дело стало?
Если есть "достаточное количество" доказательств -- почему бы не предъявить хотя бы одно?

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Это не раппорт скотланда ярда. Они вряд ли дадут доказательство пока расследование идет.

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Верно. Это -- всего лишь домыслы журналистов. Поэтому я и предлагаю подождать каких-либо официальных заявлений.
[/quote]

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Ещё это зависит от какие выводы делают. Легко говорить, что это был Луговой, но им нужно тоже расследовать кто платил Луговому за это, если он не сам решил достать радиоактивный материал и убить знакомого...
И если это было, к примеру, ФСБ или Путин, будет большой дипломатический кризис.

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Ну а если это, к примеру, люди Березовского или британские спецслужбы -- кризиса не будет? Или британская общественность просто этого не узнает?

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

Именно так.
Кстати, почему на этом основании они считают, что Литвиненко ничего не грозит, непонятно: если британское следствие предъявит реальные доказательства того, что он в чем то виноват, его может ждать судебный процесс в России.

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Смотри выше, он, наверно, не один виноват![/quote]

Безусловно, не один. См. выше. ;)
(Если, конечно, он действительно виноват, в чем я как-то очень сильно сомневаюсь...)

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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Как говорят государственные чиновники, им очень трудно объяснить российским властям, что суды в Великобритании полностью независимы, и что выслать Березовского невозможно, поскольку суд принял решение против таких действий."

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На самом деле, "объяснить" очень легко. Вот заставить российские власти в это поверить -- действительно трудно. ;)

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А вы, верите?[/quote]

Нет, не верю.
Вот если бы (несмотря на политическое давление британских властей) британский суд принял решение выдать Березовского и он был бы выдан -- вот тогда мы бы все увидели, что суд, действительно, совершенно независим от власти. А так -- где здесь пресловутая "независимость"?

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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Interesting. If Scotland Yard comes to the conclusion that it was Lugovoi who murdered Litvinenko, what are your reactions? Will you believe Scotland Yard? Or do you think they would lie and it is all a conspiracy?

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As I said before, lets wait for any serious evidence from Scotland Yard and see, what it does worth.

BTW, what do you think: if investigation will lead to Berezovskiy, Zakayey or any of their guys, do you really expect Scotland Yard to admit it?
Or they'll try to cover all this case, hide the truth, and try to find some scapegoat to blame instead?
I'll definitely vote for second option.

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:o
Why on Earth would they hide the truth? What would be the possible benefit from that? You think that England cares a rat's ass about Berezovskiy or Zakayev?[/quote]

Kalinka, are you pretending to be sooo naive. ;) You understand perfectly what I mean, do you?
*Obviously*, if it appear to be Berezovsky, or Zakayev behind this Polonium-dirty story (or even *involved* in it) -- it's going to be a very serious political scandal, hardly striking British authorities in first place. They made a lot of efforts to give a political shelter to Berezovsky (a person, too well known to the rest of world as an international swindler, multi-billion thief and sponsor of Islamic terrorists) -- instead, they called him an "innocent political victim", and brainwashed their own public to believe this cr@p. Now, when it seems tend to appear, what an innocent political victim contaminated lots of places with dangerous radioactive material -- what do you expect? Are you expecting British authorities to openly admit it?
Ha-ha. Just try to remember, how much they lied to justify war in Iraq, for example...[/quote]

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If they murdered Litvinenko, and they have proof, they are going straight to jail.

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Nope, sorry. I'm almost sure, that if BAB or Zakayev were behind this case, we'll never see an open public trial on them. What we'll see instead -- a couple of mysterious deaths. (Try hard to guess, who will be blamed for them. ;) )

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This is typical paranoia, which I've been suspecting from you Russians all along :wink:

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Paranoia, really? Try to read all this western media BS, about hordes of "killers from KGB", etc, etc. Do all this like as paranoia for you -- or what?

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You think their is a global conspiracy against Russia :roll:

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"Conspirancy" means something secretive. I don't see any "conspirancies" here -- I see an open and arrogant anti-Russian policy, which is extremely obvious when we're talking about Britain. Sheltering guys like Zakayev and Berezovsky is just a part of this policy.

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There is really no point for you to even follow this case, you've already made up your mind and whatever Scotland Yard says will not change your mind...

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Nope, I *did not* "made up my mind"! Actually, I'm really puzzled by this story, and haven't in my mind anything looking as a credible version (yes, just like a Scotland-Yard ;) ).
And, again: currently, I have no idea, what "Scotland yard says". (The only thing I heard, was unconfirmed rumors some reporter from Guardian said.) So, lets wait from an *officicial* statements from Scotland Yard -- this, at least, means some responsibility.

А почему бы, кстати, не послушать самого Лугового?

Lugovoy Defends His Innocence

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/video ... 00,00.html

Небольшой фрагмент этого интервью вчера показывали по НТВ. К сожалению не все, а скачать полностью у меня возможности нет. Кто нибудь знает, о чем он там говорит?

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Well, I'm not giving up yet. I really want to understand the logic behind this thinking, and maybe, just maybe, they will see the disconnect and if not correct themselves, at least have a deeper appreciation for why westerners get frustrated with Russia as a whole :wink:

After all it is a learning process for me too, because they too have good points about Western biasness.

But thinking Scotland Yard would cover up some kind of Berezovsky involvement is sheer and utter ridiculousness with heavy gravy! Scorpio, if you could explain that to me, who knows, maybe I am wrong?

(If a man says that he might be wrong, you can be darn sure that he thinks he is not (c) somebody I forget)

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Я смотрел Fahrenheit 9/11. Там приведены факты как Дж. Буш ловко обходит законы, когда ему необходимо и никакие судьи не помеха. А чем отличается Блэр? Да ничем.

STOP PRESS!!!

Massive anti-Russian conspiracy reveals itself in North West England!:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 258681.stm

In a shocking and flagrant attempt to damage Russia's international image around the world, Chelsea football club, owned by famous Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, were denied their natural right to three Premiership points by a Liverpool team manned by a motley crew of players sourced from a variety of western, notoriously liberal Anti-Russian nations.

"There is no other explanation for it", said Mr Abramovich, "we can clearly see the hand of Boris Berezovsky at work here, presumably in colusion with British MI6. The British, as agents of the Unites States, naturally, have failed to impose their value system upon us, so they are attempting to humiliate us on the football field instead. By beating Chelsea they beat me, and by beating me they beat their real target, Vladimir Putin. How else do explain what happened here today?"

The Kremlin press office declined to comment on the matter, though it is believed they will respond by throwing their toys out of the pram as usual.

Source: [Reuters]

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Originally Posted by mishau_

Я смотрел Fahrenheit 9/11. Там приведены факты как Дж. Буш ловко обходит законы, когда ему необходимо и никакие судьи не помеха. А чем отличается Блэр? Да ничем.

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Буш отличается от Блэра тем, что Блэр -- марионетка Буша, а не наоборот. ;)

В остальном - +1.

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Originally Posted by laxxy

Rule of law (and separation of power) does not exist => Berezovsky was allowed to live in Britain over Russian objections due to specific orders from someone important => that important person likes Berezovsky (or perhaps finds him instrumental in his plot to destroy Russia) => since he controls all aspects of British society (like the mainstream press, the Scotland yard, the courts, etc) and likes Berezovsky, he is not going to let Sc.y. to investigate him -- pretty logical, once you make a few assumptions, no? :):)

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Now go on, and try to explain the logic, which justifies accusation in address of Lugovoy for example.
Assumptions allowed. ;)

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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Originally Posted by laxxy

Rule of law (and separation of power) does not exist => Berezovsky was allowed to live in Britain over Russian objections due to specific orders from someone important => that important person likes Berezovsky (or perhaps finds him instrumental in his plot to destroy Russia) => since he controls all aspects of British society (like the mainstream press, the Scotland yard, the courts, etc) and likes Berezovsky, he is not going to let Sc.y. to investigate him -- pretty logical, once you make a few assumptions, no? :):)

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Now go on, and try to explain the logic, which justifies accusation in address of Lugovoy for example.
Assumptions allowed. ;)

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er? what exactly do you want explained?

Separation of powers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6314881.stm

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

Верно. Это -- всего лишь домыслы журналистов. Поэтому я и предлагаю подождать каких-либо официальных заявлений.

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Ну, не совсем домыслы, подтвердят, что у них источники, но конечно лучше подождать чего-то официального.

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Ещё это зависит от какие выводы делают. Легко говорить, что это был Луговой, но им нужно тоже расследовать кто платил Луговому за это, если он не сам решил достать радиоактивный материал и убить знакомого...
И если это было, к примеру, ФСБ или Путин, будет большой дипломатический кризис.

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Ну а если это, к примеру, люди Березовского или британские спецслужбы -- кризиса не будет? Или британская общественность просто этого не узнает?

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Не понимаю, почему должен быть кризис, если людей Березовского обвиняли? И при чем тут британские спецслужбы? Как Скотчер уже выше дал вам ссылку, Скотланд Ярд работает независимо от государства, и если есть в нем что-то нелегально они это докажут. Вы читаете только иносми, где пишут только то, что Запада пишут о России. Если вы читали нормальные западные газеты, вы понимали бы почему все думают, что:
1) Западная пресса не скрывает от общественности подозрительные дела в государстве, НАОБОРОТ. Если есть какие-то скандалы (и поверь мне, это большой скандал), они печатали бы это быстрее чем можешь сказать "свобода слов". Всё, что вы знаете про Буша, как он обходить законы, кто это распространил? Ага, западная пресса.
2) Полиция не скрывает нелегальных дел государства. Это уже доказано тысячи раз. И в этом случае - ничего особенного.

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

Нет, не верю.
Вот если бы (несмотря на политическое давление британских властей) британский суд принял решение выдать Березовского и он был бы выдан -- вот тогда мы бы все увидели, что суд, действительно, совершенно независим от власти. А так -- где здесь пресловутая "независимость"?

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Так, потому что британский суд не решили как вы хотели, он должен быть независен. Да, прям логика у вас крепкая. Думаете, что Англия как страна, сильно хотела прижимать Березовского к своей грудь?

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

Kalinka, are you pretending to be sooo naive. ;) You understand perfectly what I mean, do you?
*Obviously*, if it appear to be Berezovsky, or Zakayev behind this Polonium-dirty story (or even *involved* in it) -- it's going to be a very serious political scandal, hardly striking British authorities in first place. They made a lot of efforts to give a political shelter to Berezovsky (a person, too well known to the rest of world as an international swindler, multi-billion thief and sponsor of Islamic terrorists) -- instead, they called him an "innocent political victim", and brainwashed their own public to believe this cr@p. Now, when it seems tend to appear, what an innocent political victim contaminated lots of places with dangerous radioactive material -- what do you expect? Are you expecting British authorities to openly admit it?
Ha-ha. Just try to remember, how much they lied to justify war in Iraq, for example...

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Oh, I am being naive? And I thought it was you being paranoid, the two being polar opposites. I guess, we should meet somewhere in the middle. :wink:

You are missing my point entirely! You are again confusing the police with the authoritites. You are somehow indicating that the British authorities have a hand in killing Litvinenko, which is absurd! If Berezovskiy ordered the murder of Litvinenko and the police have hard evidence on it, why would the British authorities try to cover it up, which they cannot in any case! There is no scandal whatsoever if proof shows that Berezovksiy killed Litvinenko. Slight embarrasment, maybe, but scandal?

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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If they murdered Litvinenko, and they have proof, they are going straight to jail.

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Nope, sorry. I'm almost sure, that if BAB or Zakayev were behind this case, we'll never see an open public trial on them. What we'll see instead -- a couple of mysterious deaths. (Try hard to guess, who will be blamed for them. ;) )

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Oh please, now you think the Britsish government is going to order murders on their own citizens. Come on, you are walking to the edge of incredibility just to find an alternative to what seems to be offending your pride. It is typical conspiracy theory. If something is proven against your theory, you invent another layer of conspiracy... Wisen up! :)

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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This is typical paranoia, which I've been suspecting from you Russians all along :wink:

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Paranoia, really? Try to read all this western media BS, about hordes of "killers from KGB", etc, etc. Do all this like as paranoia for you -- or what?

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Well, I do not know what western media you've been reading, but I agree western media is biased against Russia, yes. That doesn't mean that they are always wrong, or that Russia never does anything wrong. And there are paranoid people in the west too. And they exhibit the same irrational thought process as you do! :wink:

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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You think their is a global conspiracy against Russia :roll:

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"Conspirancy" means something secretive. I don't see any "conspirancies" here -- I see an open and arrogant anti-Russian policy, which is extremely obvious when we're talking about Britain. Sheltering guys like Zakayev and Berezovsky is just a part of this policy.

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an annual anti-Russian 2 billion british pounds trade with russia you mean?
Don't you understand that Britain and the "West" has everything to lose in trying to piss off Russia?

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

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There is really no point for you to even follow this case, you've already made up your mind and whatever Scotland Yard says will not change your mind...

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Nope, I *did not* "made up my mind"! Actually, I'm really puzzled by this story, and haven't in my mind anything looking as a credible version (yes, just like a Scotland-Yard ;) ).
And, again: currently, I have no idea, what "Scotland yard says". (The only thing I heard, was unconfirmed rumors some reporter from Guardian said.) So, lets wait from an *officicial* statements from Scotland Yard -- this, at least, means some responsibility.

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Good for you then :)
I still gather from your previous comment, that even if Scotland Yard says it is Lugovoi, and have proof, you will refuse to believe it and blame it on a Western cover-up. Promise me you won't do that? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Scorpio

А почему бы, кстати, не послушать самого Лугового?

Lugovoy Defends His Innocence

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/video ... 00,00.html

Небольшой фрагмент этого интервью вчера показывали по НТВ. К сожалению не все, а скачать полностью у меня возможности нет. Кто нибудь знает, о чем он там говорит?

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Просто говорил типа "я не убил его. я сотрудничаю с скотландом ярдом"

Все-таки Калинка точно работает в Сктленд-ярде, говоря с такой уверенностью об этой организации. Ибо как воспринимать его "cannot" против моего "maybe"? :wink:

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Originally Posted by mishau_

Все-таки Калинка точно работает в Сктленд-ярде, говоря с такой уверенностью об этой организации. Ибо как воспринимать его "cannot" против моего "maybe"? :wink:

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извините меня, конечно, но так говорить немножко странно. Независимость Скотланда Ярда от государства доказано не один раз. Милый Скотчер дал вам ссылку выше, где пишут, что скотланд ярд арестовал близкого сотрудника Блэра, и это только вчерашные новости! А вы просто говорите "влияют!" а у вас доказательств нет... Давайте серьезно обсуждать, а? :wink:

Ну-ка, договорились на этом, нет?

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

..скотланд ярд арестовал близкого сотрудника Блэра, ...

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1) Это могло быть сделано с разрешения США.
2) Скандал не имел никакого отношения к России и международной политике.
3) Не исключать возможное и есть серьезная вещь. Исключать возможное (или даже очевидное) есть вещь легкомысленная.

[quote=mishau_]

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Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":1hk784nb

..скотланд ярд арестовал близкого сотрудника Блэра, ...

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1) Это могло быть сделано с разрешения США.
2) Скандал не имел никакого отношения к России и международной политике.
3) Не исключать возможное и есть серьезная вещь. Исключать возможное (или даже очевидное) есть вещь легкомысленная.[/quote:1hk784nb]
Милый ты мой! При чем тут США?????????? :o Скотланд Ярд присулшивает США? И что, если не казался Россией? Так, Скотланд Ярд независимо от государство, расследовает государство, но только когда речь идет о России, тогда всё: что государство говорит, то и надо говорить? :o

Why do you think so poorly about the independence of western police and judicial system? You all try to find connections that aren't there, because, God forbid, they might actually prove that Russia did something bad. And that of course HAS TO BE A WESTERN LIE. There is obviously no other option, right? :wink:

People like mishau, like scorpio, people who think the way they do, are exactly the reason Russia is such an unreformable and lawless sh1thole in the first place.

And why do you think my holy country should be reformed. We are used to living with our whims and premonitions towards West. And West did nothing to convince us that we are qrong. Now US plan to deploy messiles and a radar station in Easten Europe and it really poses a serious threat to Russia. We didn't anything like that except Cuba crisis. I think all Westeners remember very well of Cuba crisis. Moreover in 90s West tried to destroy my country by pro US IMF advisers. There is nothing we should love West for.

Bisquit, stop, please. I don't see any connection between independence of British police and US NMD program. :D But I really can't understand how Scotland Yard as a part of British police, wich is subordinated to interior minister, and who is subordinated, in turn, to the head of the cabinet, can be completely independent of this cabinet policy? :? I'm sure, if Blair wouldn't allow to arest that guy then Scotland Yard couldn't do this.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

But I really can't understand how Scotland Yard as a part of British police, wich is subordinated to interior minister, and who is subordinated, in turn, to the head of the cabinet, can be completely independent of this cabinet policy? :?

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But the British police are not directly subordinate to any "interor ministry", that's the whole point. There isn't even a national British police force, there are many regional police forces (of which the Metropolitan Police, aka Scotland Yard, is just one), and they are each partially subordinate to the Home Office (for policy), partially to the Treasury (for funding), partially to local Police Authority made up of magistrates and local councillors (for specifics, such as promotions to senior ranks), and are also answerable to the Independent Police Complaints Commission. There is no direct chain of command ("power vertical!") from anyone in the cabinet to anyone in the police.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

I'm sure, if Blair didn't allowed to arest that guy, Scotland Yard couldn't do this.

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Theoretically, he could probably block it, sure, but he could only do that within the law, and the decision would be open to massive scrutiny by a) the press, b) the Opposition, c) those in his own party who don't like him, d) any number of human rights organisations, and e) any number of ambulance-chasing human rights lawyers.

Why would he open up that can of worms over an issue that is, I can assure you, so low down on the list of most voter's priorities as to not even register?

So, you can be sure all you want, you are simply wrong.