I would advice you to wait for the inquiry to finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Second I think he has many important matters on his minds.
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I would advice you to wait for the inquiry to finish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Second I think he has many important matters on his minds.
Surely, he has a lot of important matters on his mind. How to cover all the lies he made during the election campain, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Everybody still interested in this story, *must* read this article:
http://www.anti-orange.com.ua/article/n ... ns/65/7439
All Yuscenko's and yuscenkovites' lies, exagerrations and insinuations taken together are shocking impression.
After reading this, I have 90% confidence, what Yuscenko wasn't poisoned at all.
Come on, you can't read an article from a site called anti-orange and not think it is so biased that it makes Enron's accounts look like the Pope's wallet!
Scorpio wants Yushchenko to be the bad guy in this story... simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
he lives in denial of reality
You are reading propaganda....Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
I won't go into this debate again on why I'm not reading propaganda and you are. Just open your eyes
Hark at Mr Moscow Times.
For the record I also read french newspapers and The Economist. It is not propaganda, it is FREE press. We don't have a State bullying us in our back.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
However I agree we do have ideological tendencies. But those biases are because of the editors, not because the State wants it.
Hm... anti-orange.com.ua isn't governmental site, zadonbass.org isn't government site... Your beloved orangists f@#$ed up half of Ukraine, and there're millions who stand against orange plague. If these people have their sites, it's called democracy and free press. If you praise orangists blindly and anything written against them is "enemy propaganda" it's called brainwashing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
So, when "your" side does it it's legitimate editorial, but when the "other" side does it it's sinister state propaganda?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
You really aren't very bright, are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Yes, yes. This is exactly what I expected. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
When I give you some facts, completely disproving the official version of this alleged "poisoning", I'm "denying the reality", not less.
(Yes, of course, this is anti-Yuscenko site. I know. You don't expect to find truth on any site controlled by his supporters, do you?)
Please, cut short this ranting, and just answer these simple questions:
1. What did group of american doctors from University of Virginia, headed by Dr. Gregory Saathoff (I hope, I spelled his name right), did with this case? Why it was so much secrecy about it? Do the american working for american government look as "indepenent experts" for you?
2. Why doctor Lothar Wicke -- a *real* medical expert, who actually performed analisis -- openly rejected the "poisoning" version? Why his was forced to leave "Rudolfinerhaus" clinic immediately after he made this statement?
3. Why all these results are based only on blood analisys (which is extremely easy to fake) and not on skin biopsy, for example?
4. How Yuscenko managed to survive the poisoning, which is (according to official results) exceeds lethal dose *many times*? Is he a kind of new Rasputin, or what? ;)
5. For this sake, what an idiot should use *dioxine* to poison anybody? If somebody has a principial ability to add poison to someone's food/drink, why he didn't use something more effective, like cyanide?
6. Finally, why, despite Yuscenko's claims what he knows who "ordered his poisoning" and etc, he still didn't provide *any* real names, or facts, or evidences?
Please, give reasonable answer to any of these questions. Than we'll see, who is denying the reality.
1- The case was also investigated by independant doctors, so I heard. European and american ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
2- Lothar Wicke may have received money for saying just that. or pressure or something else.
3- I thought they did both. Anyway I think by looking at his face, you can see something went wrong no?
4- Because "they" wanted to make people think it was some kind of "accident". So they used a soft poison. Another reason might also be that the poisoners sucked.
5- See above. So that it is not so obvious.
6- He "knows" but he does not have proofs obviously. His claim to know is entirely valid. And besides I think what he said was a clever political move, if that makes any sense to you?
Simple as that.
Back on reading my free press to know what happened in Kirghizstan ;)
Mord
Dear Mordan, do you realize that all you do in your answers is to speculate. You don
Reading Mordan's crap, one can get an impression that "free press" he enjoys invents facts instead of taking them from real life. :? Mordan, stop reading tabloids.
He keeps telling you what he reads: The Economist.
No ideological bias or agenda there then, oh no. I mean, a Western newspaper called The Economist isn't likely to have any bias at all when covering an ugly election in a former communist European state, and it's subsequent falling out with another former communist European state, when one of the core election issues was liberalisation and westernisation of their economy.
Nope, paragons of impariality through and through. :)
You have got something against that paper don't you? Ah yea, maybe the title? Who said The Economist does not have its own opinion? Hell that's for what the Editorial is for!!!!! But you can also find another kind of articles, articles that try to depict a situation with strong and honest reporting. I have a certain level of confidence in the Economist for exposing the facts without trying to intentionally twist those fact to fit their own opinions! The Economist often acknowledges when It was proven wrong or that facts depicted in some articles were wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
[quote=Kamion]Dear Mordan, do you realize that all you do in your answers is to speculate. You don
No, because you don
Unfortunately this is the only way to phrase any answer from both sides of the issue, since the truth is still unclear. Poor Mordan battles on defending his side with help from no one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamion
Mordan, I am curious. Are there many who share similar beliefs as you in Belgium?
Most people think as I do. We all have the same information. I mean we only know what have been revealed in our media, the pictures of his face were particularly shocking. However all the different medical statements are indeed confusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
After that, it is all speculation. From our perception of authoritarian regimes, it seems very likely that the poisoning was done on the behalf of the Kutchma regime.
But of course, we are all waiting for the investigation to finish. Without proofs, nothing is set in stone. Reading propaganda on scotcher or scorpio sites does not change that fact. "No definite evidence of what really happened has been found yet."
No evidence indeed but what we see everyday on TV is the scarred face of Yushchenko. Yushchenko is quite active and his seen a lot. I'm anxious though because It seems his hands are shaking sometimes on TV. I'm concerned his nervous system is damaged.
Brilliant!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Well, from our percetion of evil empire called USA, all recent "revolutions" were organised and sponsored from there, for geopolitic purposes of empire only, that have nothing to do with democracy, human rights and other such things.
BTW, I do not read Russian newspapers at all, I read only Western ones, Guardian, Economist, WP, NYT, etc. So we read the same, we're just different in our perceptions and conclusions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov
I excatly know what I wrote, and I knew one would point out the irony.
Now more on the substance, Why would an authoritarian regime not kill its opponents? They are not accountable to anyone! Have you not learn from History? I repeat... nothing prevents an authoritarian regime from killing people who disagree.
I don't understand why you are so irkful.
Why is your perception of the US (and the west) so bad? We don't see the Russian and the Ukrainian people in such a bad light! Actually quite the contrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov
You say that it is nothing to do with democracy? That sounds really foolish. Saying what happened in Ukraine has nothing to do with democracy is a bit extreme?
I have an ukrainian friend who would have given much just to go to Kiev and demonstrate with all those Ukrainians. This shows that democracystarts with the people Alex, not with the US. No doubts, ukrainians democracts got help from outside and western politic toward Urkaine may have helped, but that does not change the core fact democracy starts with the people.
I find this hard to believe my friend. You live in Kamtchaka and you read all those? And no russian newspaper? Why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov
Are you not the guy who would like to have another Stalin at the head of the Russian state? Then I would understand why your perception is so radically different.
"Normal" authoritarian regime doesn't have political opponents that worth killing them, first of all. Was there political killings in Brezhnev's SU? No. Dissidents were supressed by another means. They all are alive and well till today. Kuchma's "regime" theoretically, could try to kill Yuschenko, but not because it was authoritarian, but because it wasn't authoritarian just a little bit. That's why I couldn't hold that "Brilliant!".Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Elected deputees aren't any more accountable to anyone. It's the problem. As people who experienced different political systems, we can see the difference (or absense of difference) more clearly, than if our experience is limited to the one and only system that we consider the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Nothing prevents, but nothing demands to use such means. There was no such thing as "competition". Killings (political included) came to FSU along with competitive politics and economics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Actions speak louder than words. "Phrases and... bases" picture: http://www.plakaty.ru/i/plakats/medium/1733.jpg. (Was posted on this forum already).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Why nobody at the west calls for regime change in Saudi Arabia? But targets far more free states of Ukraine, Georgia and Belorussia. Democracy is a good slogan, but it is used as a tool, when it's necessary, to achieve goals that are equally far from both democracy itself and happiness of local people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
As I said before, "democracy", "freedom", etc slogans are used as a tool in geopolitic games. People are used as a tool as well. Ukrainians who supported orange coup (not all Ukrainians, fortunatelly, but less than a half of them) still do not understand what they've done. But they will understand soon enough. Ukraine agreed to drop import rates for most goods to join WTO. As a result, Ukraine's industry will die soon, not beign able to counter cheap import from Europe. Ukraine will be European camp of cheap labour force without any own manufacture, and a place where EU will sell goods. If you say it won't happen, look at Poland. Their unemployment is 20% already and is rising. Russia now has to stop all economic cooperation with Ukraine and rise export prices to world level. We won't pay for their orange adventures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
I read all this online, of course. Online versions, of course do not repeat paper version exactly, but contain a lot of articles anyway. Btw, I saw some guy who found "unbelievable" that I have internet connection while living on Kamchatka. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
As for Russian newspapers... Honestly, I read them also, but western press I read more often.
No, I am not. I think political views of real Russians are hard to understand for you. I was called Putin's supporter, though I'm not, I was called Stalinist, though I am not, I was called communist, though I'm rather anti-communist. Go on, i don't have any problem with beign called this or that. :)Quote:
Are you not the guy who would like to have another Stalin at the head of the Russian state?
You would not. To have such different perception one must live in a different state and be surrounded by different life. And Stalin has nothing to do with it.Quote:
Then I would understand why your perception is so radically different.
Interesting, I haven't seen one Russian here supporting the Ukranian banana revolution, or was it orange? Is this because Russians in general (yes, yes, I know) see Ukraine as "part" of Russia?
So Alex, you would rather see Yanukovitch as the president of Ukraine because you don't want the Ukraine in the EU, am I understanding you correctly? What other issues might you have with Yushenko and Timoshenko?
Just curious.
It is because we don't like foreign-backed and especially US-backed puppet governments worldwide. And we don't like when somebody makes fools of people to achieve his political goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
As for your second question, land called "Ukraine" now is our ancient Motherland, where all Russians came from. Once it was stolen from us and since then we struggle to get our homeland back. Western Ukraine was under foreign rule for too long - separate ethnicity is formed there as a result. But people of Russia and Eastern Ukraine are still the same nation.
As I explained already, countries should join EU, WTO and other organisations when they're ready. Today orange sect tries to hurry up integration process. Whether they want to bring to real life at least some of their pre-election fairy tales, or they just repay the support for their coup, anyway this would be a disaster for Ukraine for reasons I explained earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Interestingly, they try to hurry up integration processes with Russia. It was a puzzle for me, but now I understand. Free trade with Russia will help them to compensate losses from joining WTO, and make an illusion that their policy is successful. At our expense. No, we should treat Ukraine as a "far-abroad" now, until they kick orangists out.
So, what do I have against orangists? Everything they do serves their own personal interests and interests of their foreign masters who brought them to power. People mean nothing for them. And even more bitter that Eastern Ukraine is involved in this adventure against its will. I don't want my relatives to be part of this orange state.
Very interesting facts Alex. Do you know any websites where I can read more about what you have said?
First link that can be mentioned is http://ukraine-eu.mfa.gov.ua/cgi-bin...00503210.shtml. It's devoted to Ukraine-EU relations and have news sections with references to Ukrinform.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamion
Well, according to Timoshenko:
"[Ukraine]significantly lowered import rates, which were a barrier to beneficial relations between Ukraine and its foreign economic partners until recently. Mrs. Tymoshenko said that the next step on the road to liberalization of export-import operations would be significant reduction of import tariffs on foodstuffs, which would allow Ukraine to further accelerate its relations with its foreign partners. According to her, the policy of lowering tariffs has already started yielding results: budget revenues from import tax have tripled compared with last year".
So, Ukraine already drops import rates and will drop them even more by the end of the year, as WTO joining comes closer. Orangists present it as fully positive thing, that will allow to "accelerate relations with foreign partners" and "increase import tax revenues". Unfortunatelly, at the same time it will allow to bury Ukraine's industry and agriculture. It's clear for everyone who knows a little about economy of FSU. Look what's happened when soviet economy was liberalised overnight - yes, at the morning it was dead.
Russia is by far more ready to join WTO, because our economy is stronger and has at least some branches that can survive in competition. And still we are negotiate for acceptable terms of joining. If we abolish all import rates, we would be in WTO tomorrow, but nobody here needs it by such heavy price.
I know Russians that support the Orange and also dislike Putin. I also know russians that like putin and think that Ukraine should stay with Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
As far as I know:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
The Rudolfinerhaus was the *only* clinic, in which Yu. was examined *in person*.
All other "independent doctors", probably, just received his blood samples for lab testing. Obviously, they hadn't sufficient control over the process of taking samples -- neither they could knew, what happened with samples afterwards, before they received them.
You're just turning facts upside down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Dr Wicke really *was* pressured (he received phone threats, etc.), but only *after* his made his statement. However, there is absolutely no evidence he was bribed or pressured *before*.
You were wrong. The *only* test, result of which was presented to public, was a blood test. (See links below.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
What a wise conclusion! ;) Yes, obviuosly something's wrong with his health. The point of this discussion is: what exactly is wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Somebody poisoned someone by poison, which is *extremely* easy to detect (and according to all I heard needs *years* to be evacuated even from living person)... and this is done to look as an "accident"???Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
There's something seriously wrong with your logic.
Sigh. See above. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
If there it no crime, there obviously are no proofs of it. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
Probably, sometimes his statements really were kind of clever political move -- but now they start to sound *silly*. Even his followers are beginning to be uncertain in the "official" version...
Thank you. I know perfectly, what your favorite "free" press in writing about Kirghizstan. I bet, even if it turn into Taliban-like islamic regime, they will write the same. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
As I promise, here is the couple of very interesting links:
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=4164
[bThe Yushchenko 'Poison Plot' Fraud
He's poisoning Ukrainian politics with lies[/b]
The headlines blared: "Doctors Confirm Yushchenko Poison Claim" – and, yes, even I believed it. But, you know what? It's a lie. And now the truth is coming out….
And here is the article from medical blog:
http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueb ... gs_yu.html
YUSHCHENKO'S DISEASE : A TALE OF TWO POISONS
A very interesting analisys of his disease from medical point of view, absolutely free from politics...
Yes, I know, all the fewer puppet governments for Moscow to have! What a pity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov
I don't like Putin too much, but I don't support that "orange throwing". Domestic power, good or bad, is better than orange plague that hit the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by DDT
"Stay with Russia" or "Not to stay with Russia" are just empty words. In reality with any power, Ukraine will not go away from Russia, it's tied too closely, especially the eastern part. Even orangists understand it. But anyway, free Ukraine is better for us than orange western colony.
The first part of the question seems an interesting subject, and worth discussing, why not?
Although I agree the question was put in a rather strange way. It's a little antagonising and generalised. Then seems to ramble off into an attack on Russians in general.
So I'll give my opinion, for what it's worth.
Firstly 'Mordan' writes 'there is no proof'.
No direct proof? that's correct (ie. a reliable source giving first hand corroborated evidence that the event took place as suggested).
High probability? Yes, I agree when all things are considered, I find it highly unlikely that Yushchenko poisoned himself or that his supporters did. Especially at such a high level of toxicity. It would be a ridiculous thing to do, to almost kill yourself and inflict lasting damage with such a high dose. It was so high, it's unlikley to have been a miscalculation either.
So it's fair to assume that someone supporting the oposing candidate was responsible. with links to the Russian government? It wouldn't surprise me.
'What kind of government?' etc etc .....................Well let me tell you, pretty much every government in the world................................ Eastern, western American, British, Russian etc etc is capable of such things (including wars, conflicts, cheap tactics etc).
Some governments, I guess may have attempted something a little more subtle, but I think it's fair to say the Russians don't mess around!! Maybe making it so obvious would be part of the tactic, to send out a message, I don't know.
As for the bit about 'starting to get popular' and 'for your looks and ideas' The point is a little strange and put across in a generalised and confused manner, I'm not sure he was poisoned for his looks particularly, was he? Or that he was 'beginning to get popular' (I think he was already pretty popular!!) I don't think I'll try to answer this confused aspect. It doesn't make much sense.
The writer then briefly makes general comparisons with Islamic terrorists and his point becomes a little more lost and unsubstantiated.
As for the bit about Putin, though I wouldn't put it past him, the writer then presumes that Putin gave personal consent, of that there's little evidence. Possible, but it's hard to say who gave consent. Maybe he did. But only maybe.
The writer then seems to attack Russia Generally in a kind of rambling unsubstantiated manner 'poisoning with ideas' etc etc ??? make of that what you will, it's a bit confused and seems to assume everyone in Russia is out to kill him??
Why is the West so powerful today? We seem to be going off the subject here and I think would be hard to answer this in a concise way. Though it probably has more to do with finance and the Global economy.
So I think the initial question is fair, I suppose, the first conclusions, probably correct. But in general it's a rather rambling, misinformed general attack on the Russian people. Most of whom, I'm sure, are decent very hard working people. I'm sure they were no more personally reponsible for Yushchenko's poisoning than I am (being from Britain) responsible for bombing Iraq. Ask Tony Blair. On second thoughts, don't bother.
As for Bush?? Well, let's not even go there shall we?
Now, some decent, informative, and balanced discussions please. (PS your photo looks a bit smug Mr Mordan) :)
I'm not sure if this was even a seriously put question!!??
ah oh, the photo police are here!
Let's get it over with already. I poisoned Yushchenko!
Well that piece of news doesn't surprize anyone Mr Pravitt. We all know who signs YOUR weekly paycheck now, don't we?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pravit
Yulia TymoshenkoQuote:
Originally Posted by DDT
U.S.A. signs my weekly paycheck, baby!
BTW, the security around Askar Akayev's kitchen is so tight you couldn't believe. Good thing it didn't matter in the end, though.