What's going on in Kirgizistan?

I just read an article about chaos there; protesters are occupying buildings and the interior minister was killed. Anything could happen..

I have no idea what the political situation in Kirgizistan is, or how it's been run; but judging from the article the country seems to have terrible troubles.

The article explains that the president has failed to reduce corruption (as he had promised when he participated in something called the "Tulip revolution". He may be planning for his son to be his political "heir" like in some kind of feudal society, and he has completely given up on democracy as an option for the country.

Half the country lives on USD2 a day and is dependent on income from labour in Russia. Also -- Russia was planning to provide aid to Kirgizistan but withdraw it for various reasons, with very negative effects for the Kirgiz.

Is this something that would interest/concern someone in Russia? Or is it no more relevant than it would be for me, for example?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Is this something that would interest/concern someone in Russia? Or is it no more relevant than it would be for me, for example?

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As far as I can judge according to the people around me Russians takes the problems in Kirgizia very seriously.

Ok, I see. Just one comment: For a country where the average person lives on only a few dollars a day, I must say the police surely has very modern and high-tech outfits!! Robocop! And why are they writing "Police" in English on the helmets?

http://www.fergana.info/000/2010/buks06042010_3ogon.jpg

Вроде, Dogboy в Киргизии служил?

I guess that U.S. paid them with thouse outfits for deploying the military base there. And of course they didn't bother about writtings in Kirgiz or Russian on them.

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Originally Posted by BappaBa

Вроде, Dogboy в Киргизии служил?

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Yeah, he was there... But he didn't reveal exactly what he did. I don't think it's a very common holiday destination though, so I guess it was "business".

Hah, yeah that explains the police outfits.
The photograph was on a news site.

Apparently Kirgistan took loans from IMF The international Monetary Fund. This is terrible for a country from what I understand. Now they are in a pit, economically.

Apperently there has now been a revolution in Kirgistan, everybody thinks either Russia or the USA backed it... Anyone knows?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Yeah, he was there... But he didn't reveal exactly what he did. I don't think it's a very common holiday destination though, so I guess it was "business".

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Kyrgyzstan is actually an extremely beautiful collection of mountains and lakes. It's not a hugely popular tourist destination, but there are plenty of reasons to go if you are feeling adventurous. I am hoping to go this summer, but these recent events have thrown a monkey wrench into my plans.

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Apparently Kirgistan took loans from IMF The international Monetary Fund. This is terrible for a country from what I understand. Now they are in a pit, economically.

Apperently there has now been a revolution in Kirgistan, everybody thinks either Russia or the USA backed it... Anyone knows?

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The USA and Russia play many games, but I don't think that the US is responsible for this one. After all, the US had a good relationship with Bakiyev (the primary concern being the Manas Air Force Base near Bishkek, which is of the utmost strategic importance for American troops in Afghanistan) and had recently cut a deal with the Kyrgyz government on that issue. If anything, there seems to be a bit of an anti-American sentiment among the protesters -- resentment that the US has implicitly backed a corrupt and autocratic leader like Kurmanbek Bakiyev. Russia stands to benefit from this a lot more, but it might just be that they got lucky.

The whole "Tulip Revolution" was a big disappointment; under Bakiyev the country became even more corrupt and there was even more nepotism than before under Akayev. These latest protests seem to have been sparked by those reasons as well as basic economic grievances. I hope that whoever emerges from this fiasco provides better governance........but all too often it's a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

Poor provincal destitutes forgot their political ideas and hurried to maraud the capital city.

I have always been very fascinated by Central Asia... Just looked so amazing to stare at on the map.. endless space and poetic sounding names. Places like Samarkand are located there... Silk road history and amazing art. Practically nobody from Europe has been there.

What a tragedy it's gone downhill so much in that area lately. That's surely must be an area for which the USSR brought a lot more good than bad things?

Seems like Kazakhstan is able to manage fine on its own but the other Central Asian countries are struggling. Lord knows what's going on in Turkmenistan - quite mysterious country at the moment; apparently they don't let journalists in.

The new Kirghiz premier Okunbaeva seems sympathetic. What can they realistically do to improve conditions there? I mean, what skills do the people have and what industry or natural assets have they got?

I'm amazed at how easy it was to overthrow the gov't. A couple hundred people and bang, a new gov't.

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Originally Posted by sperk

I'm amazed at how easy it was to overthrow the gov't. A couple hundred people and bang, a new gov't.

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That depends on the government. First militia and then the military changed sides pretty quickly. This means that the government had no authority over these bodies.

I wonder if Russian is the language of instruction in schools there because the leaders speak it fluently. Russian is called the official language while Kyrgiz is the state language (whatever that means.)

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Originally Posted by sperk

I wonder if Russian is the language of instruction in schools there because the leaders speak it fluently. Russian is called the official language while Kyrgiz is the state language (whatever that means.)

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Kyrgizia (that's how it was called before the USSR dissolution) was a part of the USSR and naturally everyone learnt Russian there. Many people who is older than 30 probably speak Russian. I imagine that many young people there learn Russian simply because there are better job opportunities for those who speak it.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Kyrgizia (that's how it was called before the USSR dissolution) was a part of the USSR and naturally everyone learnt Russian there. Many people who is older than 30 probably speak Russian. I imagine that many young people there learn Russian simply because there are better job opportunities for those who speak it.

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Kyrgyz is very similar to Kazakh. I have a friend who speaks Kazakh who was told that she spoke Kyrgyz with a Kazakh accent. I once had a professor who said, "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy". I think that applies here.

Anyway, in my experience Kazakh simply isn't adequate for a lot technical subjects. Most people here use lots of loaner words from Russian -- nobody knows the Kazakh word for 'tomato', for example. I know a little Kazakh, so when people hear a foreigner speaking it, they comment, "молодец!", not contemplating the irony. For many years, Kazakh was a village language but it's being promoted more and more now. Unfortunately, there are few scientific and technical words that are in common use -- they've adopted a bunch from Turkish, but they haven't really entered the vernacular.

Kazakh/Kyrgyz isn't really an academic language (even if it's slowly changing). For now, you need Russian for certain things.

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Originally Posted by почемучка

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Yeah, he was there... But he didn't reveal exactly what he did. I don't think it's a very common holiday destination though, so I guess it was "business".

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According to this analysis, it is actually Russia which has orchestrated this coup in Kyrgizistan.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100412 ... bd51836d10

Oh yes, bloody KGB is behind everything.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Oh yes, bloody KGB is behind everything.

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The bloody KGB does not exist anymore. This time it was the bloody FSB.

Dear, esauder. Do you want me to find an 'analysis' that the US orchestrated the 9/11? :no: Don't believe every 'analysis' you read, especially if there is no analysis in that article. The only thing there is that this coup might be beneficial to Russia (or might not, we will see). So, based on the very similar logic, would you say that the recent events surrounding Iran elections were orchestrated by the US?

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Dear, esauder. Do you want me to find an 'analysis' that the US orchestrated the 9/11?

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Thanks for the offer, but that won’t be necessary. Such arguments don’t persuade me because it is generally not in the interest of a nation to blow up its own military and financial centers.

More to the point, however, it can be in the interest of nations to involve themselves in the affairs of other nations to their own benefit. The US and Russia both have considerable history and experience in this, so I don’t find it to be beyond the realm of possibility for either one. As to whether the article in question is true or not, I have no idea. My words were “according to this analysis…”, not “this is true and you ought to believe it.” I thought the article was at least interesting and worth considering in light of the subject line and that it might be of benefit to the discussion. The site where I read the article is generally quite balanced and objective in how they look at things. I'm sure they're not always right but they certainly are not given to wild speculation and neither am I. However, I have no wish to offend anyone here as I am brand new to the list and fear I may have gotten off on the wrong foot...so I’ll gladly drop it.

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Originally Posted by esauder

However, I have no wish to offend anyone here as I am brand new to the list and fear I may have gotten off on the wrong foot...so I’ll gladly drop it.

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Nah, don't worry, I'm sure you haven't offended anyone. That idea's been around for some time now, so I guess it was inevitable to pop up. Please make yourself comfortable in our forum. Welcome! :druzja:

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Nah, don't worry, I'm sure you haven't offended anyone. That idea's been around for some time now, so I guess it was inevitable to pop up. Please make yourself comfortable in our forum. Welcome! :druzja:

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Thanks! I've actually been reading the archives on here for a while and have enjoyed them. Good to be here finally!

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Originally Posted by почемучка

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Kyrgizia (that's how it was called before the USSR dissolution) was a part of the USSR and naturally everyone learnt Russian there. Many people who is older than 30 probably speak Russian. I imagine that many young people there learn Russian simply because there are better job opportunities for those who speak it.

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Kyrgyz is very similar to Kazakh. I have a friend who speaks Kazakh who was told that she spoke Kyrgyz with a Kazakh accent. I once had a professor who said, "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy". I think that applies here.

Anyway, in my experience Kazakh simply isn't adequate for a lot technical subjects. Most people here use lots of loaner words from Russian -- nobody knows the Kazakh word for 'tomato', for example. I know a little Kazakh, so when people hear a foreigner speaking it, they comment, "молодец!", not contemplating the irony. For many years, Kazakh was a village language but it's being promoted more and more now. Unfortunately, there are few scientific and technical words that are in common use -- they've adopted a bunch from Turkish, but they haven't really entered the vernacular.

Kazakh/Kyrgyz isn't really an academic language (even if it's slowly changing). For now, you need Russian for certain things.

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Interesting information! I had been curious about this. I am really looking forward to visiting Central Asia some time not so far from now... and I expect to be able to use Russian?

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Originally Posted by esauder

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Originally Posted by почемучка

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Yeah, he was there... But he didn't reveal exactly what he did. I don't think it's a very common holiday destination though, so I guess it was "business".

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According to this analysis, it is actually Russia which has orchestrated this coup in Kyrgizistan.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100412 ... bd51836d10

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I've seen this article passed around. Unfortunately, we must consider the source. Stratfor is a wannabe private intelligence service and their articles often read as if they were taken from a bad spy novel. While they are right sometimes (a broken clock is right twice a day...), a lot of their material is simply regular, typical behavior spun as if something really intense is happening. (It's a conspiracy!!!)

In this case, their article is largely based on the fact that there are FSB agents in Kyrgyzstan. That strikes me as a totally normal state of affairs and that hardly constitutes any sort of proof of a larger plot. I'm sure the CIA has plenty of contacts and people there, too.

So basically, it's possible, but there isn't much good evidence.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Interesting information! I had been curious about this. I am really looking forward to visiting Central Asia some time not so far from now... and I expect to be able to use Russian?

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It depends on where you go. Kazakhstan has the largest population of Russians of all the Central Asian countries and because of this, Russian is extremely common here. It's spoken by all except some rural elderly people. You won't have any problems getting by with Russian in the cities except perhaps Kyzylorda. The northern part of the country is especially Russian and even some of the Kazakhs up there don't speak Kazakh well (or at all).

I imagine that in Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan you could get by with Russian but you'd run into more non-Russian speakers -- but I'm not an authority on these countries. Tajikistan and Turkmenistan....well if you go to these places, good luck! Tajikistan is desperately poor and has very little infrastructure. Turkmenistan is a hermetic country whose bizarre leadership has cut off most outside influence. I don't know how common Russian is in the T-stans.

Thanks for the interesting info about the language situation in Kazakhstan.

Actually there is a guy from there who visits this forums from time to time. He once mentioned that he can't say anything in Kazakh apart from "What's your name?". Not sure where he lives but I think he's in school at the moment. Are you able to speak it?

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And back to the original question:
Conclusion:

1) Nobody really understands what's going on in Kirghizstan.

2) Nobody knows how to spell the name of this place in English!! (Haha.. I think there are DIFFERENT transliterations into different European languages and this causes some confusion).
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And actually, just planning a trip to Central Asia would be really interesting and fun. An old school friend of mine would like to travel by train in that area (and in Russia), so she's a perfect travelling companion. I am not sure which country I would prioritise; at first I thought only about Kazakhstan, but the others are interesting too..

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Thanks for the interesting info about the language situation in Kazakhstan.

Actually there is a guy from there who visits this forums from time to time. He once mentioned that he can't say anything in Kazakh apart from "What's your name?". Not sure where he lives but I think he's in school at the moment. Are you able to speak it?

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I know more than "What's your name", but I'm unable to have basic conversations. Basically, I know stock phrases, I can count, and I've learned a variety of random words. While people love it when you speak Kazakh, I find Russian to be more useful (because almost everyone speaks it, whereas not every speaks Kazakh) and Russian could be useful when I go home.

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And actually, just planning a trip to Central Asia would be really interesting and fun. An old school friend of mine would like to travel by train in that area (and in Russia), so she's a perfect travelling companion. I am not sure which country I would prioritise; at first I thought only about Kazakhstan, but the others are interesting too..

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To be honest, I would prioritize Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan. Kyrgyzstan has gorgeous mountains and lakes and generally holds a lot of natural beauty. Uzbekistan is home to most of the regions ancient cities -- Samarkand, Bukhara, Khiva, and most of the Fergana Valley.

Kazakhstan is quite a bit wealthier than the other -stans. The large majority of Kazakhstan's cities grew out of Russian forts or are entirely Soviet constructions, so many are rather ugly, unfortunately. It's the sort of place that would be great to visit if you knew somebody there, but there's not a lot to sight-see otherwise. If you are looking for a "pure" traveling experience -- a way to see life in another country without nearly any other tourists -- it would be a good choice, especially because you speak Russian and Kazakhstanis tend to be very friendly and hospitable. In my small city, I've met three tourists/travelers in two years: a Swede and two Aussies! (both coming through on bicycles).

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Originally Posted by Johanna

And actually, just planning a trip to Central Asia would be really interesting and fun. An old school friend of mine would like to travel by train in that area (and in Russia), so she's a perfect travelling companion. I am not sure which country I would prioritise; at first I thought only about Kazakhstan, but the others are interesting too..

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I would choose Kyrgizia in the first place, It's my dream to vizit Issyk-kul lake.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

I would choose Kyrgizia in the first place, It's my dream to vizit Issyk-kul lake.

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What a stunning place!
I *really* want to go there too now! Would be interesting to stay in a "sanatorium".
The beautiful and unique nature is really inspiring. That's what I value the most on a holiday.


Thanks Pachemuchka for the the summary of your experiences with Central Asia.
So where are you from then, and what are you doing in Karaganda? How long are you going to stay for?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Thanks Pachemuchka for the the summary of your experiences with Central Asia.
So where are you from then, and what are you doing in Karaganda? How long are you going to stay for?

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I was going to China, but I took a wrong turn and now I'm horribly lost. :wink:

Actually, I teach English and I do health projects (mainly involving students) in my little town. Originally, I'm from the Boston area.

I just read in the paper that things have gone completely out of control in Kirghistan; lots of people getting killed in conflicts between Kirghiz and Uzbeks inside Kirghistan.

The new Kirghiz prime minister then asked Russia to send [eacekeeping troops to help restore order.

However Russia said "no".

I don't understand why it declined? It didn't decline when South Ossetians asked for help?
What's the big difference?

It seems to me that Russia has a certain amount of responsibility to help out there, since it's been involved in the area for centuries as I understand it.. and it was during the USSR period that the unfortunate creation of borders took place there, which is leading to some of the problems now.

Don't you think Russia ought help them restore order? (in a completely peaceful way of course). Or if the Kirghiz are desperate for help, should they ask the UN, EU or the USA instead?

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Don't you think Russia ought help them restore order? (in a completely peaceful way of course).

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The only goal of USSR entered Afghanistan was to help Afg. government restore order in a completely peaceful way on their demand.

Reposted from other forum:

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TASHKENT, June 11 (Itar-Tass) -- The rapid response forces from the member-countries of the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) will not be put into action in Kyrgyzstan yet. “This is not considered yet,” Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told reporters on Friday.

The Russian president recalled that “the criterion for putting into action the CSTO forces is the transgression by a country or a non-state entity of the borders of another CSTO state, in other words, a foreign invasion, an attempt to seize power from outside.” “Just in this case the CSTO states have an opportunity to use the forces,” he noted.

“This is not considered yet, because all problems in Kyrgyzstan are rooted inside the country, were brought about by the previous authorities, their unwillingness to solve social and economic problems,” Medvedev underlined.

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http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2....9391&PageNum=0

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a poster on a kyrgyz forum reported that according to his acquiantance russian airborne units and their armour are boarding transport planes in the russian city of ul'yanovsk, the destination is reported to be osh. The guy says that he found about about the russian response to georgia's invastion of south osetia through the same channel long before it was on the news.

http://vif2ne.ru/nvk/forum/0/co/2035421.htm

there are also reports that the odkb countries will discuss sending peacekeepers on june 14, so perhaps this russian deployment (if true) could be a part of a coordinated response by odkb.

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Good explanation, thanks. I guess there might be more going on behind the scenes.

I should probably explain my interest in that area; from my view it's a very fascinating part of the world, a bit mysterious and exotic and with such beautiful nature and old architecture.

It was only recently that I found out (here on the forum) that Russia's involvement there goes back several centuries.

I also saw a BBC documentary from there a while back, which clearly showed how the standard of life for people in the smaller central Asian countries has fallen since the end of the USSR. It seemed that a lot of the people there regarded this period as the best that they had.

Basically the documentary showed a sad picture of drug smuggling, corruption, religious fanaticism, terrible economic destitution and pollution... All set in that gorgeous landscape with old fairy-tale style mosques and Soviet style boulevards and monuments..

It was sad to see that their independence had not worked out well. Europe has no connection to that area and has no reason to get involved, neither has the USA of course. That really leaves only Russia as a country that could perhaps help.

But I definitely see iti-Ogo's point about someone "asking for help". I think that was officially the story for Vietnam too... So it's definitely a bit dubious. It could turn into a commitment running for years leading to Russian troops killing local civilians. Russia is wise to be cautious. I am sure you are right, just because the current president wants it, doesn't mean that the people do.

And if Russia goes in, then there is certainly a risk that international media twists it and makes out that Russia invaded! (However, the story that I read was in a Swedish paper and was very neutral.)

Perhaps it's something the Kirgiz must sort out themselves, in their own time and their own way.
I guess I am just touched by the fate of Kirghistan and I hope they can find a way to move ahead... Not sure if that ought to involve Russia or not...

Uzbek migrant workers in Moscow came out to Russia's goverment building and asked Russia to stop violence against ethnic Uzbeks in Kirgizia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89TX0...layer_embedded

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7615/...aa41d4orig.jpg

That's terrible!!!! I didn't understand a lot of what they said, just some bits here and there. But they seem to want regular people who would like Russia to take action there. Do you think they illegal immigrants, or legal?