Дык рабство ведь тоже было легальным
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Дык рабство ведь тоже было легальным
Ну, это вопрос философский. Нравственные и юридические аспекты первоначального накопления капитала - это разные вещи. Мы же являемся непосредственными свидетелями того, как происходила и происходит приватизация, то есть отчуждение государственной (общей) собственности в пользу частных лиц. Коммунисты считают всю приватизацию в России несправедливой и предлагают её отменить. Путин предлагает применить чисто юридический подход: если юридические формальности были соблюдены, то новый собственник чист (как в случае Абрамовича). Если не соблюдены, то его можно и нужно преследовать в уголовном порядке (как в случае Ходорковского). "Иначе мы слишком далеко зайдём" - это его фраза из ответа по поводу аморальности приватизации в 90-ые годы. Я например видел, как скупалась земля в той местности, где я отдыхаю летом. Земли бывшего коллективного хозяйства были скуплены московским спекулянтом у местных жителей очень дёшево при активной помощи местных властей, которые наверняка были подкуплены. Юридически там всё чисто, но нормы морали там явно нарушены. Местная власть запугивала людей, обманывала их, рекламировала покупателя (занималась PR). А когда сделка состоялась, маски были сброшены. Новый владелец забыл все свои обещания, начал притеснять людей, запрещать ходить по своим землям. Вот статья про него. Президент Медведев несколько лет назад говорил, что земли сельскохозяйственного назначения при их не использовании в течении нескольких лет должны изыматься у собственников, но реально это не делается.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
So you think that there is a difference between having money, and having power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Can you really not see that your guy with $100 billion has power. Or your $100 billion annual turnover corporation? Money IS power.
Who do you think runs the USA for instance? Whoever has the money; corporations or individuals. With the actual people and democracy playing a very distant second fiddle.
Who would like to pull off the same trick in Brussels as they did in Washington, and are well on their way...
In the UK, the super rich and very powerful + people who are popular with the establishment have their own Chamber in the Parliament. They can stop new laws and basically choke any initiative they don't like. Virtually everybody who is a billionaire, is also knighted and can have a place there, if they like. All it takes to get in, is a very large donation to some government project.
The super rich are usually above the law if they commit crimes; they don't usually pay taxes, or only pay as much as they want to.
Right now I am doing an assignment at a very, very large erm.. international corporation in an extremely lucrative area of business. They are as powerful as the government in many areas. They lobby to get their way, they buy off politicians and businessmen at home and abroad. The state almost certainly to some extent carries out industrial espionage on their behalf and the security services is behind their business in places like Russia and South America. They are one of the main beneficiaries of the two recent wars/invasions that the UK has been involved in. Interesting "chance".
In Sweden, we have a family that is incredibly rich and has its tentacles in just about every lucrative business. Their actual family creed (in Latin) is "To act, but not be noticed". It's almost laughable because they really give the game away.
People know they are rich and influential, but nobody knows just how much.
I have a couple of friends from that actual family. They are (individually) very nice people and those I know are not personally involved in the family business even if they benefit from it. I would not bash them as individuals, necessarily. But that family is an example of someone who gets in bed with anyone with the slightest level of power and influence, and manipulates them. This family was so shrewd that they even managed used 80 years of almost no-interruption social democracy to knock off the competition and get richer. In those days, they had to keep their money abroad, but lately with the "Moderates" ruling, and this family funding one right-wing "think tank" or national publication after another, they can now keep their money at home and be a bit more open.
To imagine that rich people exist in isolation, is naive.
How did they get rich, how do they managed to stay rich, or get richer? Obviously because they know how to play the system. Hard work and/or brains alone does not make you a multi billionaire - for that you have to be shrewd and ruthless as well, networking at all levels in society. To stay like that for generations you have to raise your kids right for the purpose.
Look what Facebook, Google and large ISPs had to do to stay on top. Sell out their users private data to security services. It was a price they were willing to pay.
The give and take between state and capital goes both ways. They are in bed together. Or rowing the same boat as a famous punk song goes.
And if you love rich people, prepare to start loving the Chinese! They are just like the family I mention. Not outwardly aggressive or obviously out of control. But they are beginning to buy up major assets in all worthwhile industries in Europe. America is up to its ears in debt to China, and China is the new best friend of many African nations after giving them actual aid on terms the Africans like, in return for stakes in mineral claims.
They are probably working Russia too, but I don't know exactly how.
The USA is turning into a debt-ridden, war-obsessed country run by corporations and billionaires while regular people are getting worse off and public services are crumbling.
China is running a much more effectively controlled ship, and they are not even in a hurry to get there.
My point is Money=Power.
Rich people are not the isolated philantropists that you seem to imagine.
I can agree that money can give you some power to some extent, but that's not the power to mess with other ppl's lives. Neither is it the power to break the law and get away with it. When you're rich, you just don't have to break the law, that makes no sense. You've succeeded in life in such a way you can just watch your wealth make even more wealth in a legal market play. If you have say a couple million bucks, you have maybe about a dozen legal ways to make it work for even a bigger wealth of yours. If you have a couple billion bucks, this number is probably hundreds or thousands of ways. Etc. etc. etc. That's what all the major corporations are doing. Btw, speaking of corporations. Look at Microsoft or Apple. I bet ppl like you in the 1970s (and especially hippies) hated "the evil corporations" just about the same way. They said big corporations had taken over everything, there were no ways for small businesses, etc. Well, look at 2 of those small businesses now. Having started from scratch, they've turned into the world's largest software corporations with annual revenue around $100 billion. They were supposed to have no chance to ever make it to this current level back then in the 1970s, but they did, and nothing stopped them. Maybe money's not the problem if people aren't spoiled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I don't see that you are making any coherent point, other than re-iterating your admiration for rich people and large corporations.
To each his own...If the throwaways of capitalism is what inspires you then I'm sure you'll be able to find interesting challenges working for an oligarch, in the service industry or in a foreign owned sweatshop. To each his own.
Odds of you building a legal small business into something profitable are heavily against you, even in well established capitalist economies - I think you have a very romanticized view of it. Most businesses fail. Those that don't have extremely hardworking, ruthless, bold and intelligent leaders. If you fancy those attributes apply to you and envisage that you'll end up a corporate mogul some day yourself, then glad you found a satisfying daydream. Getting Rich is the Opium for the Masses in this day and age. Seems like you are high on it.
How anyone can find the Russian oligarchs to be inpiring role models is completely beyond me
What's completely beyond me is how one can think I find Russian oligarchs an inspiring example, while I never said anything about any of them in particular in the first place, and then made an explicit point that none of what I was talking about was linked to any of them. That's the worst case of misunderstanding and word twisting I've ever encountered on this forum, and I believe it's being done on purpose, out of someone's manipulative intentions.
Who are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
"...and this family funding one right-wing "think tank" or national publication after another?"
In Sweden? LOL! (Deleted. L.)
If you are Swedish you really ought to already know; if you are not, it's all the same to you, isn't it.
And if you are Swedish, this article from today illustrates pretty well what's happening. Kanadensiskt larm: Svensk hälsa hotad | Nyheter | Aftonbladet
Even Canada is warning Sweden about the "ideological u-turn" and it's affect on national health and a number of other factors. However instead of caring about social equality, public welfare etc, we are supposed to care about "choice" and about the latest and greatest politically correct concepts such as gay issues. All the while class divides are growing and everything that previous generations spent 100 years creating -- one of the fairest and safest societies to ever exist ---- are being sold out to the highest bidders, from abroad. And it's not even necessary.
Whatever. Can you be more vague? That is not a 'right-wing' problem or created by the right. There's only two right-wing parties in Sweden, neither which have much influence at all in Governing or policy decisions. An alleged third, the Sweden Democrats, are a Pro-Israel group and a 'phony right-wing' party which panders to the few Swedes who don't want to vote for leftist parties but do anyway in ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
You quoted Aftonbladet which is a mainstream publication there and is owned by Schibsted, which is controlled, operated and owned by big banks. The other major media company/corp. is owned by the family, Bonnier, which do I really have to explain that one?
Where is your 'right-wing U-turn' here? LOL! The problem, is these interest groups and Elites have promoted high spending and runaway multiculturalism which has exasperated your Welfare system and it can't be sustained as is. I have discussed how it is with a Norwegian friend and he goes to private med clinics whenever seeking health services. The public system is likely inefficient and ineffective as it is in Canada and elsewhere. It's needed or subsidized care is beneficial to an extent but the Government waste cancels out the usefulness. Sweden has decided to open its doors for anyone from Syria and it is more evidence of the stupid, mindless thought process from Swedes! How come Swedes are so stupid and mindless to bankrupt their Welfare system and destroy their society?!? LOL! The population is brainwashed and has been indoctrinated fully and a large part of it is controlling information and how it's presented (i.e. media) and that is all leftist propaganda. You can't criticize it or you are labelled a 'neo-nazi,' extremist or something like that.
Russians don't care about this topic, though, but it is food for thought. Putin pursues his own model much like this without the 'Social Democracy' (socialist) version but it's more or less the same idea.
Thanks for confirming your nationality. I was wondering.
And for the record, there are some interesting parallels with Russia - I responded to your comment because you particularly singled out that paragraph. The big difference, is that most intelligent Russians are pretty aware and cynical about what's going on with their country, in terms of media and the other factors you mention. The same cannot be said for Swedes in most cases. I am not going to get into an ideological debate with you but leave you with a tip:
With the views you seem to have, you'd better make sure you are set up with insurances and well filled savings account so you can afford the new "choice driven" economy. And before you get on any high horses wrt ideology, consider what you've already received by the welfare state you seem to despise. Would you have gone to university, if you'd have had to pay for it? Would your parents? The real price, is 180,000 SEK per year. How would you have got hold of that, and paid your bills while at the same time studying. I won't even go there with medical care which millions of people in the US are losing sleep over but has been handed to you on a silver platter by the welfare state you despise. You won't appreciate it until you lose it. But by all means, enjoy the "choices" and don't forget to save every penny - if your dreams of living in a miniature replica of the USA come true, you will need it.
My husband and I were responsible American citizens. We both worked hard and never accepted any handouts. Then one day my husband caught a virus which settled in his heart, damaging it and causing him to have severe arrhythmia. For three years his condition worsened, and although doctors tried every procedure they could think of to help him they finally told him that his only hope to continue living would be a heart transplant. He was hospitalized for nine consecutive months while he waited for a heart. By then he had congestive heart failure and I worried every day that he would die. I continued to work while he was hospitalized and paid for his insurance, which - since he was now on an extended medical leave of absence - was only available through a program called COBRA and cost more than $1200 per month. He died, and was brought back to life, five times. They installed two artificial hearts - Ventricular Assist Devices (VADs), one for his right and left ventricles, to keep him alive until he finally got a real heart. He chest was sliced open and stapled shut five times and he was on life support for 41 days following the installation of the VADs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
He finally received a heart transplant and, though he worked hard to start walking again (all of his muscles had completely atrophied) so that he could return to work, his employers informed him that they had fired him while he was in the hospital and he had no job to go back to. He had been a loyal employee for 15 years but they cut him off because they did not want to pay for his insurance. The medical bills began to pour in, and even with the insurance which I had struggled to pay for, our out of pocket cost was $500,000. The total cost was $4 million and from what we have learned, his insurance defaulted and never was able to pay for that. We were forced to file for bankruptcy and we lost everything in our savings and almost lost our home.
It does not matter how "responsible" you are, how much you put away in your savings, or how hard you work - tragedy can strike out of a clear blue sky and I for one am very, very grateful for the social benefits which are in place, even though they are lacking when compared to other countries. My husband was granted disability and that has meant the difference between eating or going hungry many times.
People who think everything should be privatized and who blame all of our economic woes on the poor or the sick (instead of the last decade of nonstop wars in foreign countries) are living in a bubble of non-reality. They think that if you are just responsible and hard working, everything will be OK. They judge people like me and my husband and would like to cut all social programs and leave people like us homeless or dead, I suppose. Without Medicare and Disability, my husband would not be able to afford the $2,000 worth of prescription drugs he must take every month so that his body does not reject his new heart. But I suppose that the ultra-wealthy, who have millions of dollars in their banks, do not have to worry about such petty and trifling concerns and can just consign the rest of us away while they gamble with our economy as if it were one big game of gin - winner take all.
OMG what a horrific story. That should make certain people think twice what they wish for -- and that's how the glamourized "choice" pans out for real people. Fortunately people like 14Russian is in a very tiny minority.
Capitalism showing it's REAL face. It's not whether or not he's an employee that says he should get healthcare. He's a human being and that's enough. Living in a rich country that can pay for endless wars, for space programs and and lord knows what else. So there are resources to cover the cost for his care.Quote:
He had been a loyal employee for 15 years but they cut him off because they did not want to pay for his insurance.
Smiling faces of pretty nurses and re-assuring doctors in glossy insurance pamphlets is the propaganda; and they won't even talk to you, let alone smile, unless you have the insurance, or hundreds of thousands in the bank to pay up. Imagine having to prove you can pay, before they'll treat you - I understand this happens in the US.
Cost to you and your husband in the UK would have been £0. In most other European countries, 0-200 USD in TOTAL. Yes, the difference is tax sponsored, but it means that nobody will ever be denied treatment, and the treatment will be the same, regardless of who you are. There is no need to lose any sleep over hospital care; if you need it you'll get it, and you will never have to sell your house or anything else to pay for it.
All human lives are worth the same! One human life is not worth more than another, just because that person has more money in the bank. I had to spend a month in a hospital as a kid, and shared a room with the daughter of a very rich celebrity, and the daughter of an immigrant taxi driver. We had similar conditions and got exactly the same treatment.
The medicines your husband needs would have cost $10 per batch you collect at the pharmacy, in England (can be covering several months), or free in Scotland. In Sweden you pay the real cost up to $100 after that, whatever medicine you need, is free for you, for a year.
I think healthcare is more or less free in Russia, from what I've read here and elsewhere. Standard is OK, but could be improved. Don't know about Ukraine, but in Belarus it's essentially free, including the meds. Standard is not gold plated but acceptable.
The American view on healthcare is INCOMPREHENSIBLE to everyone this side of the pond.
I read an article in a Swedish Christian paper, trying to explain why Christians in the States hate "Obamacare". Apparently the idea is that if the state provides, then people become dependent on the state, rather than on God. So for that's reason they hate it. It makes no sense to me. What if God is using the State to provide the healthcare? Every other hospital is named for a Christian or biblical figure for goodness sake. And what about the Good Samaritan? Public healthcare is completely in the spirit of what he did - that's Jesus' own parable. Public healthcare is allowing us all to be like the Good Samaritan towards each other. What could be more Christlike on the health front? As with many other issues, these people appear to lose the plot.
Because you'd be destroyed. ;-) So, you didn't even really read the post. I don't need your tip and you didn't bother to read the post fully, obviously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
But, you know that Russians are 'aware' of what's going on, yeah, okay. You are pathetic to try and 'score points' based on nothing. No backbone, no knowledge, no nothing. :) Actually, there are many who do but probably not based on what reasons you have. The protests in Russia show that they are at least aware, many of them. They are to be commended too, because unlike some of the clueless people in other countries, they are at least, not apathetic. That is the difference though with your assertion and mine. You base yours on nothing and I am at least trying to illustrate some reference. I think, when Russians are out protesting in the thousands against Putin's rule and against the destruction and neglect of their country, that it shows they know something is seriously wrong. Also, my questioning of how many are unaware is based on what other Russians have told me or comments that many have made (not directly to me).
I have had many discussions with various Russians and informed myself reading several sources. It's not meant to demean or ridicule those who are 'unaware.' It's meant to help. Often, you need a kick in the butt or a wake-up call in order to 'snap out of it' and enlighten yourself.
Anyway, you're another example of how clueless many Swedes are. 'Can't even understand or have a clue when reading, too.... that's sad.
I agree that everyone's life is worth the same. But did you ever wonder why hundreds if not thousands of citizens of those countries try to collect amounts like hundreds of thousands of $ and go to a clinic somewhere else, should anything serious happen to them? Because the healthcare system there is terrible! It can treat cases like cold or flu, or some emergency cases, but if it comes to a complex surgery, that's it. If someone needed a heart transplant surgery like the one Deb described, they wouldn't do it there for either $500K or $4M. That would just be technically impossible. You can say the healthcare system in the U.S. needs a lot of improvements, but please, don't bring it down to the CIS area level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
It doesn't matter whether you believe in a totally public (subsidized) system or if you want a 'mixed' system or one wants a libertarian/totally private system, it's always the same. You need it paid for if you want a 'social safety net.' Since, you and Hanna are both 'liberals' in the 'American' or 'Western' sense of the word, you just don't get it. You are totally clueless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
But, I presented a theory or reason why the system in Sweden is crumbling and she had no clue. Still couldn't comprehend it. :) That is the problem and why the system is breaking.
You think it's a simplified system of the rich beating down the poor. Yes, it is but it's more than that. The public and private system works in different ways and unfortunately, Governments utilize crony capitalism and many leftist policies to bankrupt the public system. One of the most noticeable consequences is what happens to public healthcare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
It's incompressible to me, too. The right-wing "christians" do not seem to have anything in common with the person they claim to follow, Jesus. Their idol is money, and their prophet is Ayn Rand, and their virtue is selfishness. They have a cruel streak, really, and they have shaped their brand of Christianity to justify their cruelty. But in reality they are exactly the same as the pharisees who despised Jesus and had him crucified. If they ran into Jesus today, they'd do the same thing all over again, and gleefully.
In the good state of Missouri, known for having one of the highest concentrations of "christians" in the entire "bible belt," the leaders refused to accept federal funds for the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) but they did fork out millions to pay for better chemicals to be used in lethal injection of people. They are against paying any tax money to help the sick, but they are not opposed to using tax money to kill people. It says a lot about their "christianity."
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
You have to contain your anger! It's like you are have a chip on your shoulder.Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
It's sickening and destroys everybody's good opinion about our forum.
Take it as a warning.
I hope Hanna developed a thicker skin by now to take your attitude and not to get upset.
Sorry Hannochka, I want to keep this post as a sample of what we have from 14Russian.
That's because the motto of the US is "they eat each other" (c). And nowdays it needs an addition: "just for fun".
Some hot news, as I like:
Calif. police shoot, kill 13-year-old with fake rifle - CBS News
California sheriff's officials and family members say deputies shot and killed a 13-year-old boy who was carrying a replica assault weapon.
Two Sonoma County deputies saw the boy walking with the replica weapon at about 3 p.m. local time Tuesday in Santa Rosa. Lt. Dennis O'Leary says they repeatedly ordered him to drop what appeared to be a rifle before firing several rounds.
The boy fell to the ground. Deputies handcuffed him and began administering first aid, but he was pronounced dead at the scene.
"...handcuffed him and began administering first aid..." - they handcuffed a half dead boy? That's merely amazing. The Gestapo is alive. I'm not that young to be astonished with all such things, but news from the US surprise me all the time.
I wish I could say such stories surprised me... but they do not, anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G.
There was a time, when I was very young, when I respected police officers. We had a TV-show back then called Adam-12, and if you watch this short clip, it can give you an idea of what cops used to be like. They were much more community-oriented back then. In Los Angeles, where Adam-12 was filmed, their motto was "to protect and to serve."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fzpa5emToQc
Some of it may have been propaganda, certainly. I grew up in Los Angeles and not all of the police were as kind as the two guys in this show. BUT... compared to today's paramilitary police who shoot first before asking questions, who don't even bother to read people their Miranda rights anymore... it's like a lost dream.
And I wish this militarization was only an American problem, but whenever I turn on the news I see the same crap all around the world with cops. They look and act like gestapo and they stomp all over people who peacefully protest.
Speaking of over-zealous cops...
http://rt.com/usa/uc-davis-pike-comp-641/
http://rt.com/files/news/20/df/10/00...hn-pike.si.jpg
According to this article and others, the cop who assaulted several Occupy Wall Street protesters at a university in California was awarded $38,000 for HIS "pain and suffering." Apparently all the negative publicity he got from spraying people in the face with burning hot pepper spray while they were sitting down was just too much for him to handle.
You forget to mention that just a few days ago, another 12 y.o. kid committed a shooting with a real gun at school and killed several people (I don't remember what state that was in); I think though, the cops shouldn't have fired at that fake gun owner, tasers would've been more than enough. Even if that was a real rifle, illegal possession of a gun and disobedience are not punished by capital sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G.
A bit off topic, but very interesting to hear. Some of the views of these Christians are so offputting that it makes me doubt my own faith. What if they got it right, you know? At the end of the day, God is sometimes showing a really harsh side in the old testament, for instance. I once visited a Christian forum, and these people were right up there with some of the most radical republicans we see here, plus some and with faith to spur them on. It's miles from what anyone I met face2face actually believes, but because they are so strong in numbers in Christianity, they tend to set the tone a bit. Hence that article I read - trying to make sense of them. Plus it's the language issue - their views are easily accessible, while people with a more similar interpretation to me, tend to write in other languages that I don't speak. Even more puzzling,many of them aren't well to do themselves, and could become financial victims of a medical disaster any time. But on this one I am just confused, not worked up. Whatever is done on this matter is happening within the borders of the US, to Americans - so it's not my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
Я неверующий, но могу предположить, каковы их мотивы. Возможно, что они считают неправильным любой способ уклониться от божественного наказания, от ответственности за свои грехи и свою жизнь. Поэтому им может доставлять удовольствие наблюдать как люди мучаются, болеют и умирают, ибо они грешники (в соотвествии с доктриной христианства), а бог не может быть несправедлив.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
P.S. Что касается моего мнения, то любое философское утверждение не может быть доказано или опровергнуто. Это в общем известный факт.
On the contrary, I think this hateful, judgmental attitude by America's right-wing "christians" has a profound impact on the world outside. They are the same ones who constantly push for war, and some of them actually believe they are "helping God" to bring about the final apocalypse of mankind. They are so fanatical, that they actually want to make it happen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Yeah, but plenty of American Christians are not like that though! I wouldn't want to blackpaint the whole lot. For example Quakers, Mennonites, Jehovas Witnesses.... the Amish people, and probably many more that I don't know about are pacifists. There are some other high profile Christians who are against wars as well. Ron Paul, I think, for instance, but I don't know too much about his other views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborski
There is a church here in my neighbourhood that I go to sometimes, and it has some kind of vice pastor who preaches occassionally and runs some groups and charities. This man is American and once he started banging on about "our troops" (meaning both British and US) in Afghanistan, and how one person came to faith when he was under attack by the Taliban or something schmoozy like that. He described the Taliban as "pure evil" - ex US- allies and people who are trying to fight a foreign invasion. He had some kind of point which I've forgotten, but he was taking sides in this war, in church.
Myself and a few other people started giving each other meaningful glances and I was EXTREMELY close to just getting up and walking out. I am not a liberation theologist or Jesus comrade, but it's certainly better than these fanatical right wing people. But it's hard, since I agree with their views on some other matters - but on this, no.
And I totally agree with you on their apocalyptical madness. They are more extreme zionists than many Jews that live in Israel. w00t!! If God wants to bring about the apocalypse per the book Revelation, he can take care of it without some war hawk Christians with nukes and drones... The other verse they should read is the one about how "no man will know when that time is, not even the Son". etc, etc. So they can predict it all they want. These people make me wonder if Marx didn't have a good point about religion being like opium. In the case of these people, they are high on twisted religion. If they are going to abuse Christianity like that, then they are to Christianity what jihadists are to Islam.
By the way; I think it's tragic that you lost your faith because of experiences with idiotic Christians. Hope you don't think I'm like that and that you'll reconsider at some point. You can't judge all Christians on those you came across. There are some very cool and radical Christians who you'd feel right at home with.
I don't think most Christians would be like that, but some are: Health and Wealth Gospel - where ministers go on TV and hint about how illness can be a punishment from God, along with poverty. Don't know if you have that in Russia - very vulgar, so hopefully not! I'll never forget the first time I saw such a broadcast. It is not real Christianity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Юрка
The story of the Good Samaritan shows that the Christian spirit is to to make sure that anyone who needs it gets healthcare, no matter what. Samaritans were a people that regular people didn't like. A bit like gypsies. I really like this story, so just for fun: Parable of the Good Samaritan in easy Russian, from some "easy" translation I found:
От Луки 10:25-37
Притча о милосердном самаритянине
25 И вот один законоучитель встал и начал испытывать Иисуса, говоря: «Учитель! Как я должен поступать, чтобы унаследовать жизнь вечную?»
26 Иисус ответил ему: «Что записано в Законе? Что читаешь ты там?»
27 И ответил тот: «„Люби Господа Бога своего всем сердцем своим, и всей душой своей, и всей силой своей, и всем разумом своим”, [a] а также „люби ближнего своего, как самого себя” [b]».
28 Иисус же сказал ему: «Ты ответил верно. Поступай так и будешь жить».
29 Но законоучитель, желая оправдаться, спросил Иисуса: «А кто мой ближний?»
30 На это Иисус ответил: «Один человек шёл из Иерусалима в Иерихон и попал в руки разбойникам, которые сорвали с него одежду, избили и ушли, оставив его полумёртвого лежать на земле. 31 Случайно той дорогой проходил один священник. Увидев избитого, он ушёл прочь и не остановился, чтобы помочь ему. 32 Пришёл на то место также и левит и, увидев избитого, обошёл его, не остановившись помочь ему. 33 Но некий самаритянин, находившийся в пути, проходил мимо и, увидев этого человека, сжалился над ним. 34 Подойдя к нему, он перевязал ему раны, омывая их оливковым маслом и вином и, посадив на своего осла, привёз его на постоялый двор и позаботился о нём. 35 На следующий день он дал два динария хозяину постоялого двора, сказав: „Позаботься об этом человеке. И если истратишь на него денег сверх этого, то отдам тебе, когда вернусь”.
36 Кто из этих троих, по-твоему, был ближний тому, кто попался в руки к разбойникам?»
37 Законоучитель сказал: «Тот, кто сжалился над ним».
И сказал ему Иисус: «Иди и поступай так же».
He probably thought the Taliban were "freedom fighters" during the Soviet-Afghan war...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
It's funny how the labels change depending on who is killing whom... and who does the reporting...
Attachment 835
Thanks very much for posting that, Hanna! I would consider this to be one of Jesus's most important parables -- and also, incidentally, a parable that seems to be original to him (whereas some of the other sayings/parables of Jesus were most likely borrowed from the Jewish rabbinical tradition).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
The only problem is that some people nowadays forget that the Samaritans were outsiders that nobody liked, and (at least in English), "Samaritan" is sometimes used as a synonym for "nice person." So, it often makes sense to change the identities of the injured traveler and the helpful stranger, depending on your audience.
E.g., If I were speaking to an audience of conservative evangelical Christians, I might make the injured person a conservative evangelical Christian, while the helpful stranger is a gay drag queen. But speaking to an audience of liberal secularists, I'd make the injured person a gay drag queen and the stranger would be a conservative Evangelical. In other words, the "Samaritan" should be a member of a group that most of the audience will find it difficult to identify with -- that's the whole point of the story.
An Arab cartoonist who works under the name "Abu Mahjoob" clearly understood what the parable is about:
http://www.synthstuff.com/mt/archive...mi-cartoon.jpg
(and, mind you, if you check out his other work, the guy is definitely not very pro-Western!)
Каково назначение притчи (не только этой, а всех христианских притч)? Изменить человека, изменить стереотип поведения, который вырабатывался тысячи и миллионы лет. В человеке остались старые стереотипы, рефлексы, алгоритмы, эмоции, которые помогали ему выживать тысячи лет (бронзовый век, каменный век и т.д.). Опыт многих поколений говорит нам "убей" и "укради" (особенно у чужих), а книжка говорит противоположное. Но изменить человека за 2 тысячи лет невозможно. Поэтому мы имеем сейчас так называемых христиан (и так называемых мусульман и прочих), которые на самом деле являются людьми со старыми страстями. А любую философию можно приспособить под эти старые страсти и стереотипы поведения. В том числе и Библию и Коран. Казалось бы, там всё зафиксировано, но есть тысячи трактовок, благодаря которым и пацифист и людоед найдёт себе что-то близкое в священных книгах.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Поэтому я не считаю, что среди христиан должно быть больше добрых людей, чем среди прочх. Все люди одинаковые, разные у них только флаги.
