Thread: "The west must not make an enemy of Putin"

I was really surprised to read clever and convincing article in FT

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/ba94637e-6b51- ... 511c8.html

Hello again Scorpio
I couldn't agree more about the article, but you shouldn't be surprised. The FT has long had a reputation as an excellent source of unbiased (or at least "multivalent", if I may) journalism - I guess because when money is at stake, people don't want to listen to bullsh*t.
Of course, this article is only someone's opinion. I happen to agree with it.

It is too bad that USA has not taken a more pro-active attitude toward offering friendship to Putin and Russia. This, I predict will be seen as an opportunity lost. I hope I turn out to be wrong.

On a similar principle (with present or past communist nations), what about the missed opportunity with Bill Clinton's US-China relations head-way being deliberately squandered by the follow-up adminstration, infavour of going solo toward stealing oil from the Middle-East. As if going solo is going to reep longer-term rewards than successfully co-operating with your would-be "worst f@#n' nightmare!". That one's gonna bite America on the ass, gangrene and all!

I disagree. Clinton made no headway with China. Unless you call sucking up to a totallitarian regime headway. China got what it wanted and paid nothing for it. They are still killing their own people.

I think it does Russia an injustice to compare them with China. Not that I think you meant it that way.

Originally Posted by DDT

They are still killing their own people.

As are the US, strictly speaking. Tongue only partially in cheek here.
As for imprisoning people without fair (or any) trial, again, the US is doing just fine thank you. Guantanamo etc.
The biggest difference between the US and China is that China is not killing hundreds of thousands of people outside its borders. At least not at this point in its history (and no, I don't think the Chinese are paragons of virtue).
But people in glass houses ...

I think it does Russia an injustice to compare them with China. Not that I think you meant it that way.

If you ask me, Russia should be trying a lot harder to imitate China, in some ways at least. There are many who consider that Putin is doing precisely that - they talk of the "Chinese model". Of course that may all be rubbish, but you should know that that opinion exists.
(In case you're not aware, I speak as someone who's lived, however "peripherally", in both countries.)

Originally Posted by waxwing

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But people in glass houses ...

Since there is no point hashing over old disagreements. And I do understand your points. I will only take issue on this one small thing. I think that this phrase is the weakest point you made. I say this because the similarities between China and USA (or any other country in the industrialised west) are few, if any. America, even with it's bad points and even Guantanamo and Iraq if you take that to be bad, still has more free and open society than China.
As a matter of fact, when in history has there ever existed a more benevolent superpower?
How benevolent was Persia
Assyria
Babylon
Greece
or Rome
Be thankful that the USA is not like any of those.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/003/11.38.html

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/003/16.42.html

I have no denial that USA isn't overtly quashing my freedom, compared to if I was in Iraq under Hussein, for example. But, an under-appreciated means of destruction is moral manipulation. Pretending to be good-willed, when you're not. Or pretending something is harmless, when it isn't. Covert oppression destroys minds, even if it doesn't show on the body. It's merely a well-bred cliche to presume that physical harm is worse than psychological harm. No, I'm not claiming you, DDT, are buying into that cliche. But, I can't agree with the term 'benevolent' to describe America. I feel great harm has come to me from living in Western society. But, as I don't have any physical scars to show for it, my sufferings would be down-played by most.

Means of control and oppression are getting more comlpex and covert to keep pace with our intelligence at detecting and evading the old ways. So, I don't deem USA's oppression to be more or less, but just a different breed. The new breed, basically put.

I'm not a cynic, though. ("Yeah, right, Brett!" ). I do acknowledge all
the successful steps that are occuring alongside, and inspite of, the destructive ones. But, the same must be said for China. Look at all the wisdom that has come from that country's civilians. (And no, I don't idolize Eastern cultures. I give Western culture equal credit in the wisdom stakes). The word wisdom may sound out of place in a political descussion, but keeping 'the bigger picture' is the only way to make sure that the political change being made isn't mere token gesturing, which only later down the line shows its repercussions.

What you have to understand is that fifty percent of America's population agree with the war in Iraq and I don't know what the figures are of Iraqi's being in support but there are a number of them who are. I would say the vast majority were very happy the day Sadam Husein fell in any case.

So those people who think that America is not a benevelant superpower must also think that the 50% of Americans and the Iraqis who support the war must be really bad people. And that is simply not the case.

How do you define benevelant? All the powers that I listed in my previous post dominated the known world. Why did they do this? Because they could. They did not care about the people of the countries that they invaded. The common practice was to kill all the educated and deport the rest of the population to be be used as a buffer zone between them and their enemies and to be used as slaves. Entire populations were removed or killed.

Since America does not fit into this catagory, perhaps you mean that america is not benevelant because you can now go down your street and get a pizza from Pizza Hut or there is a McDonalds on your corner. But that is every Australians own fault for ever setting foot inside those establishments.

So, in your eyes, America has gone from the country who would not fight in WW1 untill the very last year and who waited until Britain was on it's knees before helping out and joining the fight against Hilter,(because "It is not our war") to a Malignant cancer that must be stopped.

Well I think that you are missjudging Amerca's intentions. Sure, there are some ignorant people who eat junk food who don't know where France is here. But there is also an over abundance of good hearted people who are willing to help others at a moments notice. So I fail to see how you can deny that USA is the worlds most benevelant superpower.

I will just add that all countries governments look out for them selves first and that is the way it will be untill we get rid of borders and just have one country. But I hope I never see that day because then that goverment will still only be looking out for itself only there will be nowhere to go to get away from it.

@DDT

Where exactly do you get this 50% of Americans agree with the war in Iraq? only about 26-27% even voted for Bush to come into Office(again) much less on any other vote...

About America and the world wars...I really think of that as a completely different America, more good intentions in the gov't than today...

And saying Rome was not benevolent... It really was, considering the time period(people in general didn't have as much of a respect for human life as today)... It brought religious freedom, as much of a democracy as the USA(for a time anyways) and a lot less pain and suffering... Well, that is until the christians took control of the empire...

Since America does not fit into this catagory, perhaps you mean that america is not benevelant because you can now go down your street and get a pizza from Pizza Hut or there is a McDonalds on your corner. But that is every Australians own fault for ever setting foot inside those establishments.

The problem I see with this argument is that inorder to not play into the power's hands, you'd have to live in a bubble. It is natural to adapt to your surroundings. I like to avoid patronizing the corporate world, but not at the expense of my freedom to roam and wander through whatever society I am in. But, I do know that eveyone has their little role to play. But I deem it an over-simplification to say that a person eating at McDonalds is in the same category as the one who deliberately negates any potential variety and choice.

But in all, I agree with you that badness is not at the heart of everyone who agrees with going into Iraq, amongst billions of other ideals. People on either side of the arguemnet lgeitimately feel they're defending themselves against a threat. The war protestors in the 60's who were calling the soldiers "murderers!" were not living up to their peace slogans. They were just plain hurtful and hateful.

I've no cynicism as to the true nature of Americans (as it's the same nature as everyone else, just different triggers and circumstance). One thing non-Americans neglect to realize, is that being brought up in a country that teaches you you're better than everyone means you have to be that much stronger to NOT think you're better than everyone. So, Americans are victims of every other country's insensitivity, not just the other way around. I disagree on political matters to you, it seems. But the underlying sentiment I'm pretty much in agreement on. There are things that can be achived today under USA, that couldn't have once upon a time. It's not an American trait specifically. This 'benevolence' is something that the world is getting better at, amidst all the terrors that suggest the world is getting worse. The world's not getting worse and more evil. Its merely reaching more people simultaneously. eg. the bow and arrow vs the atom bomb.

So, I think the destruction that is there, is as bad as ever. But, the progress beneath it all is accumulative, therfore as a rule, is further along than in previous times. I suppose on some level, your saying America is benevolent is true. I was just commenting on the bits that aren't benevolent. Both truths are present, really.

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

@DDT

Where exactly do you get this 50% of Americans agree with the war in Iraq? only about 26-27% even voted for Bush to come into Office(again) much less on any other vote...

This figure was from a poll I saw two days ago on a news show, on how many people support the war, not how many voted for Bush. The figure was actually about 49%. It used to be quite a bit high

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

About America and the world wars...I really think of that as a completely different America, more good intentions in the gov't than today...

You got my point in reverse. I am saying the opposite. America had less noble intentions during the first and second world wars. In those times America was "isolationist" and only cared about itself. Your politicians had to pull your teeth out in order to talk you into fighting in those wars. AS it was, by the time USA entered WW2 Britain was nearly crippled with much of it's navy destroyed. America sat back and did nothing for almost two years while the rest of the world struggled against Axis powers. Even little old Australia was battling Nazis while Americans were enjoying their "Golden Age of Hollywood". Same thing happened in WW1.
These days USA is now taking the lead and everyone is complaining. Well I say "Three cheers for the Yanks, mate".

Originally Posted by Plastic-Saint

And saying Rome was not benevolent... It really was, considering the time period(people in general didn't have as much of a respect for human life as today)... It brought religious freedom, as much of a democracy as the USA(for a time anyways) and a lot less pain and suffering... Well, that is until the Christians took control of the empire...

Oh dear, where do I begin? So Romans were nice guys. Just like the lowly egg and getting a bad rap. Or maybe like my namesake the pesticide DDT it is really quite good for you (like me) it is just misunderstood.

Well, tell that to the inhabitants of Jerusalem in 70 AD. When the Roman Army had besieged the city for almost two years and turned the inhabitants into cannibals. Women were killing and eating their own children. I am sure I don't need to go into any more detail than that to give you an idea of the depravity that was caused by Rome at that time. You also might want to consider the thousands upon thousands of Christians that Rome killed for sport by having them torn to pieces by wild animals or burned alive for entertainment purposes. Especially under the rule of Diocletian. Or maybe you think that it is benevolent to skewer dissenters with a spear from anus to mouth on poles lining the streets for mile upon mile leading to the wonderful city of Rome.

And don't think that democracy was invented by Rome. Rome was a totalitarian state feared by all.

And don't believe that Christians ever took control of Rome. Rome, as stated earleir killed all the true Christians it could find until Constantine combined the State with their own corupt version of Christianity which bore little resemblence to the Christianity they fed to the lions.

I deliberately didn't answer DDT 'cos I was trying to avoid this ... sigh ... fat chance .. this is a Russian forum and Scorpio posted about Russian politics ... we really need to stop turning everything into a discussion about America here.
Sorry

You are right Waxwing. I knew that I should not have even started in this thread. It always seems to go to a topic on the US and now I've posted a short history on the Roman Empire. Oh what a joke....and I even missed an appointment this morning because I was writing it!! Ok ....I've learned my lesson....again..sorry ..also.

I don't actually enjoy politics, as my post history (not 'post-history' ) would suggest. But, it is addictive. It sort of drags me in, even though I don't really relate to political ways of thinking. I've a habit of getting too spiritual/psychological on the issue. But, I dip my toes in once in a while. And I probably learn something, even if I don't know what. I think I'm probably a bit disrespectful of politically-minded people (inadvertently, of course). But, I'm gradually learning to change that. Politics is a blind-spot for me.

Originally Posted by brett

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I disagree on political matters to you, it seems.

Don't worry, so do most people on this forum. I am the despised and hated DDT.
Anyway, getting back to topic here. Another angle on the subject for your viewing pleasure, for discriminating minds (and people who smoke Benson & Hedges).

Putin also said that he personally has good relations with Bush,saying "Bush himself, in my view, is a very decent and consistent man.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/read ... tNum=79287

Another decent article:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050131&s=cohen