Thread: Victor Bout - Russian Businessman (?) facing 25 years in US prison

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Well, go ahead and see you at a trial!

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. "Democracy" in action.

I ain't sure about the Megaupload guy, but those selling dangerous stuff to terrorists, including those like Iranian government, etc. should go to jail for a long term, no matter what country it is. They simply have to stop trading that stuff until it's too late.

Yes, they should go to jail. But there's no legal reason for them being prosecuted in the US and under American law. It's not universal, and there are still other countries around with their own laws, if you forgot. I could understand if this man would have been prosecuted in Russia or even in Thailand, since he operated on their territory, but Americans barging into the picture is too much.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. "Democracy" in action.

Yes, they should go to jail. But there's no legal reason for them being prosecuted in the US and under American law. It's not universal, and there are still other countries around with their own laws, if you forgot. I could understand if this man would have been prosecuted in Russia or even in Thailand, since he operated on their territory, but Americans barging into the picture is too much.

Well, as long as it doesn't concern U.S. national security, they could be dealt with somewhere else. Selling weapons to terrorists that are most likely going to use them to attack the U.S. is a completely different matter. I think it's just so obvious and clear, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Well, as long as it doesn't concern U.S. national security, they could be dealt with somewhere else. Selling weapons to terrorists that are most likely going to use them to attack the U.S. is a completely different matter. I think it's just so obvious and clear, isn't it?

No, it's not. The fact the US made some enemies does not give them the right to stomp all over the world abusing their power. The US is becoming the greatest Orwellian-type dictatorship of all, and in the light of this I see their so called fight for freedom as hypocrisy. Which is sad.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

The US is becoming the greatest Orwellian-type dictatorship

Sorry, didn't notice that. It treats its citizens millions of times better than many of the countries you would put up with do. Some of which would really remind me of Oceania.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Sorry, didn't notice that. It treats its citizens millions of times better than many of the countries you would put up with do. Some of which would really remind me of Oceania.

How they treat their citizens is their internal business. I'm more affected and disturbed by the fact that they treat the rest of the world exactly as any dictator would have treated it - like it does not have any say in the matter and its only right is to obey or be destroyed. And all this is going on to the accompaniment of inspired rhetoric and doublespeak, which was brilliantly described by Orwell.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

How they treat their citizens is their internal business. I'm more affected and disturbed by the fact that they treat the rest of the world exactly as any dictator would have treated it - like it does not have any say in the matter and its only right is to obey or be destroyed. And all this is going on to the accompaniment of inspired rhetoric and doublespeak, which was brilliantly described by Orwell.

First, how a country treats its citizens is not its "internal business", if the people are treated harsh, it's up to the world community to decide if it should intervene and help them get rid of those who provide such treatment.

Second, what Orwell described was exactly how dictatorial authorities can treat people in their own country. Did he write much about other countries? No. There was only one ministry that was engaged in waging wars - Miniwar, the other 3 - Minitrue, Minilove, and Miniplenty stuck to humiliating their own citizens. In fact, if you're looking for a 1984 prototype, you can go with almost any commie regime, they all fit fine.

And finally, don't you think that common people, like you or those from your environment don't have to be bothered by the things a country may or may not do to some international terrorists? For it can hardly affect you...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

First, how a country treats its citizens is not its "internal business", if the people are treated harsh, it's up to the world community to decide if it should intervene and help them get rid of those who provide such treatment

That's where our opinions differ. I consider such an arrogant desire to shape other countries to one's own standards or liking a source of instability, and generally no more than an excuse for aggression (if it suits one's interests).

Second, what Orwell described was exactly how dictatorial authorities can treat people in their own country. Did he write much about other countries? No

Seriously? Can't you extrapolate? ))) He described a way such a destructive power operates, how it corrupts and brainwashes people (making them believe in "a course" and succumbing to politically correct "truths"), and its consequences. A matter of citizenship is of no import here. The age of globalization has come.

And finally, don't you think that common people, like you or those from your environment don't have to be bothered by the things a country may or may not do to some international terrorists? For it can hardly affect you...

It definitely affects me, because I do not like it when a certain country takes upon itself to judge who's a terrorist and who's not, and what to do about it - without regard to anyone's opinion. If you let it go far enough, who can guarantee that it's not me, who'd be labeled a terrorist next according to some newly invented foreign law?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. "Democracy" in action.

Yes, they should go to jail. But there's no legal reason for them being prosecuted in the US and under American law. It's not universal, and there are still other countries around with their own laws, if you forgot. I could understand if this man would have been prosecuted in Russia or even in Thailand, since he operated on their territory, but Americans barging into the picture is too much.

Exactly. My opinion is that Russia should have dealt with him, if it needed to be done. It's another question why Russia hasn't, and there could be many reasons I suppose.

But I don't think there is ANY rationale that the USA arrests a Russian citizen, in Thailand, for selling weapons to non-Americans (the FARC guerilla).The FARC guerilla were considered a liberation army not so long ago, similar to the ANC in South Africa, for example, and received foreign aid from many respectable countries. The quarrel there is an internal matter for Columbia to solve - that country is not some kind of paragon of virtue and there is a good reason why the FARC exists, it is their methods that are questionable.

I don't see what Columbia's affairs have to do with the USA either. The only "American citizens" that would be affected would be CIA advisors or elite soldiers who are there meddling in Columbia's affairs. (his supposed crime was "plotting to kill American citizens").

Wait until China arrests an American who meddling in their sphere of interest, brings him to Beijing and sentence him for terrorism, to serve 25 years in a Chinese prison (probably not that much worse than a chain gang in Texas)... Maybe that would make people reflect a bit on the illogical and creepy precedent set by this sentencing. But with people's skewed perspective of reality it would more likely lead to a big political drama and biased media reporting.

And like I said, something like this recently happened to a British man too, and a school boy who hacked a US defense system for fun.

Here is an interesting entry about Victor Bout from Wikipedia

Viktor Anatolyevich Bout (Russian: Виктор Анатольевич Бут) (born 13 January 1967, near Dushanbe, Tajik SSR, Soviet Union) is a convicted arms smuggler and political prisoner.^[1]

Having graduated from the Military Institute of Foreign Languages,^[22][27][28] he is said to be fluent in six languages.^[29] These include Persian and Esperanto, which he mastered already at the age of 12,^[30][31] and in the early 1980's he was member of the Esperanto club in Dushanbe.^[32] Bout's personal website states that he served in the Soviet Army as a translator, holding the rank of Lieutenant.^[6]

Language genius and Esperanto club member turns terrorist arms dealer... how sad. He'll be a broken man when he gets out of prison in the USA. Assuming he even survives. I guess it's another fallout of the events in the 90s, in the ex USSR. Under different circumstances he would probably have been a really nice and legitimately accomplished person.

His main crime seems to be that he ignored existing embargos and shipped equipment to whoever could pay. His main fortune was made from shipping and not from weapons sale.