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Just two events:
US man, who made adopted son die terrible death in hot car, found not guilty
http://english.pravda.ru/society/storie ... ar_death-0
and
Iraq: Shoe reporter could face seven year jail term, says brother
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Se ... 2825579744
I just wonder what Americans think of that, throwing shoes at US President in Iraq is much more criminal than making a Russian kid die in the States?
I believe Americans don't think that making any kid die is good and that Miles Harrison's acquittal was fair. If some judge acquitted him, it doesn't mean that all Americans agree with that judge and would do the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
What a meaningless comparison.
An American found not guilty by an American court vs an Iraqi who hasn't even been tried yet, and when he does it will be by an Iraqi court.
What's this supposed to demonstrate?
And I might add that perhaps the tub-thumping scumbag Russian diplomats and press who are inevitably going to turn this into a nationalistic issue would be better off using their energy addressing the national disgrace that is the Russian juvenile care system.
It's supposed to demonstrate that democracies that America likes to show off and tries to built in foreign coutries are much tougher than in America itself or it's even not democracy at all. It means that America fails to built democarcy in Iraq by America's own template.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Can you name any else country with so many deadly issues about adopted Russians?Quote:
And I might add that perhaps the tub-thumping scumbag Russian diplomats and press who are inevitably going to turn this into a nationalistic issue would be better off using their energy addressing the national disgrace that is the Russian juvenile care system.
What has democracy got to do with two completely unrelated criminal court cases in two different countries? You're not even getting close to making a coherent point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
Can you name any else country with so many deadly issues about adopted Russians?[/quote:37i0qneo]Quote:
[quote:37i0qneo]
And I might add that perhaps the tub-thumping scumbag Russian diplomats and press who are inevitably going to turn this into a nationalistic issue would be better off using their energy addressing the national disgrace that is the Russian juvenile care system.
Yes I can: Russia. That was exactly my point.
Sorry, should have forseen shuch an answer, ok, let's say so
Can you name any else country with so many deadly issues about adopted Russians as foreign chilren?
В России:
http://www.rian.ru/video/20081216/157332099.html
20 убийств = от 6 до 20 лет в тюрьме. Каждая жизнь стоит не больше 1 годa заключения.
В Америке:
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/12/21/sentence/
Я думаю, что Россия не может обвинить американскую судебную систему ни в чем.
Mishau_:
I still don't see your point. More bad things have happened to Russian kids adopted by American families because the vast majority of foreign families who adopt Russian kids are American. That doesn't alter the fact that vastly more Russian kids have had their lives improved by being adopted into American families than have been victims of ill-treatment, and neither does it alter the fact that even if you accept Pravda's gutter journalism at face value any Russian kid would still be better off taking the risk of foreign adoption than remaining in Russian state care.
There is something really disgusting about watching Russian nationalists shed crocodile tears for kids they didn't give a damn about when they were languishing in some vile state orphanage.
Nationalism has nothing to do with it. It's natural that Russian journalists followed that story; because the kid was Russian. They're just surprised and indignant at the fact that Harrison was acquitted. I, personally, am indignant too. Not because the boy was Russian. The man is guilty anyway, even if he didn't want that to have happened. A father should not forget a kid in the car! So please don't say the tears are crocodile.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
I think all state orphanages are vile. It was his mother who repudiated him, not Putin or Medvedev, or we damned evil Russians in general.
But I actually think, too, that this case has nothing to do with the boots episode in Iraq.
_mishau,
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
And who gives a damn about what America thinks about anything?
This case was not an American trial! Ask the Iraqis what they think, it was tried in their court.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
I'm not merely talking about why bad things happen to those kids in America. I'm talking about why those parents remain in fact unpanished. 5 years ago I read in an American news paper that a foreigner was sentensed to one year term in America for leaving a kid in a car with an opened window. There was not much danger for the kid's life nor probably for his health. What's changed now? I see what: this time the parent wasn't a foregner, but a foreginer was the child.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
My point is how selective in some way American democracy is becoming these days. On one hand if an American becomes annoyed with their foreign kids adopted, they can get rid of their kids by just leaving them in a car to die, don't you agree? On the other hand, it is them, American democratic politicans that have built such a regime in Iraq. Why do they approve such harsh Iraqi legislation then? My conclusion is: Americans approve that their citizens can sometimes murder foreign kids and Americans approve (or don't care) long-term sentences for foreigners that throw shoes at their citizens in a country where they are responsible for the regime. I can repeat doesn't that mean not throwing shoes worth a lot for Americans than saving lives of children?
>>This case was not an American trial! Ask the Iraqis what they think, it was tried in their court.
DDT, you say as if it is not America at all that is responsible for building democracy in Iraq. What have they been doing there all this time then?
The US is not imposing Western morals on Iraqi courts. I wish they were. But to Iraqis, throwing shoes is serious. What can i say?Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
The kid in the car story: Hey! we weren't on the jury so we didn't hear the whole story. If you weren't at the court house during the trial you will never know why he was released.
That's how the system works in the USA. If a "jury of your peers" says you are not guilty then, you are free. It is not the judges decision.
No, it's just this time the foster father was fainting away very convincingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
I actually don't agree with the verdict of not guilty, too, but all this story has nothing to do with democracy!!! What the hell??
I'm not suggesting that you can only be worried about this case if you're a nationalist or that your concerns aren't genuine. Frankly I don't think you need to be any more than a human being to find this story tragic and the judgment probably unjust (at least on the little information we have to go on, which is hardly from an impartial source). What I'm saying is that Pravda has a history using this sort of tragic story as a vehicle for whipping up anti-American and anti-Western moral outrage and some more nationalistically inclined Russian politicians have a history of cynically taking advantage of it. It's their crocodile tears I was referring to. Yes they're indignant, but their indignation would carry a whole lot more water if they ever expressed similar indignation at the 800,000 Russian kids languishing in appalling conditions in state care. But of course they don't, because there's no political capital in expressing outrage for those hundreds of thousands of kids, only shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
I was actually in Russia in 2007 when the government, in response to an earlier story like this one, tried to halt all foreign adoptions. I was there, I saw the way it was reported on TV and in the press, so don't try and tell me there was no nationalistic or anti-Western undertone. Just look at the way mishau_ has reacted here.
Well, I see the way how this story is reported on TV, and I don't see any nationalism or any whipping up anti-American and anti-Western public mood in it. Really. Just the indignation at the sentence (i.e. its absence). Following the Russian kid story in America is just Russian journalists' job.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
If you could read everything what he writes in Russian, you'd understand that he's not a good example, and that he hates Russia State as well as America, or maybe even more.Quote:
Just look at the way mishau_ has reacted here.
They remain unpunished because they were found not guilty. Of course it's possible that the judgment was flat-out wrong or that he got off on a technicality or whatever, but you and I have no way of knowing that. If you think you do then I suggest you submit your evidence to the prosecutor who brought the case or the judge who presided over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
So you are taking two completely unrelated criminal court cases neither of which you know very much about and using that to surmise that the US justice system is biased against foreigners?Quote:
5 years ago I read in an American news paper that a foreigner was sentensed to one year term in America for leaving a kid in a car with an opened window. There was not much danger for the kid's life nor probably for his health. What's changed now? I see what: this time the parent wasn't a foregner, but a foreginer was the child.
Get a grip.
Please look up "democracy" in a dictionary, because you clearly don't understand what it means.Quote:
My point is how selective in some way American democracy is becoming these days.
No, I don't agree. I think this comment is droolingly stupid. You're talking about one particular case that you know very little about beyond what you read on an ultra-nationalist "news" site and then extrapolating it to reach your absurd conclusion.Quote:
On one hand if an American becomes annoyed with their foreign kids adopted, they can get rid of their kids by just leaving them in a car to die, don't you agree?
For one thing, the US has no say in the Iraqi justice system. The reporter was an Iraqi who committed a crime in Iraq, and so he is subject to Iraqi justice. This has nothing whatsoever to do with foreign justice systems and it has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy, imported or otherwise. Nothing.Quote:
On the other hand, it is them, American democratic politicans that have built such a regime in Iraq. Why do they approve such harsh Iraqi legislation then?
And for another thing, you're talking as if he'd already been sentenced, but in fact the Iraqi prosecutor still hasn't even decided whether to press charges. The "harsh sentence" you are fixating on is just a bit of speculation by his family. Hardly a basis for a discussion on comparitive justice.
Then you are insane, and there's no point in continuing this discussion.Quote:
My conclusion is: Americans approve that their citizens can sometimes murder foreign kids and Americans approve (or don't care) long-term sentences for foreigners that throw shoes at their citizens in a country where they are responsible for the regime.
I'll have to take your word for that. That Pradva article and quotes I've read from some Russian politicians elsewhere suggest otherwise though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
I read most of what he writes in Russian, so I know what he's like. His reaction might have been extreme, but it's clearly the reaction that article was trying to elicit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Totally, absolutely agree with that! No doubt about it. The only reservation being Russian nationalists I’d replace by journalists searching for a scoop.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Dear Passionate Forum Members,
My posting is not to put a dog into this fight or to debate you… it is simply to offer to you a perspective by someone who lives 30 minutes from where the Harrison tragedy took place. (Please forgive me Ramil… I know you don’t give “a damn about what America thinks about anything”)
When the news broke about the Harrison story, it was all over every television station and radio talk show in this area. Two things were discussed the most and I will include some of the responses:
1. How does a parent, any parent… forget their child is in the car with them? It seems that this happens when the parents schedules are altered from their normal routines and the child in the back seat and by law is facing the rear and therefore cannot be seen by the driver. When “we” are trying to be superhuman and work 12+ hour days, go to our children’s school and sporting events, make time with our spouses and in this area, our commute is over an hour each way… we become more and more distracted and never really put even 90% at best into anything any longer.
2. Should ANY parent who does this face jail time? Is the punishment of having to live the rest of your life knowing that you have killed your own child enough? If jail time is supposed to help protect society, rehabilitate and also punish someone for their crime, is there a purpose served by sending a parent to jail in this circumstance? Could a better alternative to a jail term be found? Some sort of community service? Or, should we not be sympathetic because of the nature of this case and only consider that another human has been killed and take all compassion out of the equation?
There were some people who did bring up the fact that the boy had been adopted and those people were quickly silenced. Here, it was not seen as a case of a child adoption gone wrong. It was actually seen as even more of a tragedy because the couple had waited so very long to have a child. The father even spent time in a psychiatric hospital after the death of his son.
There is a Washington Post Editorial about the verdict; by Staff Writer Marc Fisher and a poll on their Web Site…
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/raw...illed_son.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
It's not only my absurd conclusion. Vlasimir Soloview isn't communist, isn't ultra-nationalist and isn't stupid. He lectured in economics at the University of Alabama, 1992-1994. He's a Jew (or semi-jew). However, that's what I found in his blog (the first paragraph is about western diplomatic workers or something that killed Russians. The second paragraph is what I'm talking about:Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Видел сегодня министра иностранных дел РФ Сергея Лаврова. Говорил с ним о трагическом эпизоде, когда гражданин на «Порше» убил двух студентов. Как вы знаете, в частности, после нашего эфира, (хотя, конечно, не только из-за этого), вызывали посла Германии для дачи объяснений в МИД. Он обещал всячески помочь расследованию. Хотя, есть ощущение, что, к сожалению, никуда ничего не двинется. Получается удивительная ситуация. Такой подход к жизни россиян, который проповедуют как немецкий сотрудник школы, убивший двух студентов, так и американский вице-консул, тяжело травмировавший человека и избежавший наказания. То есть, они все плодят "калоевых". И это, конечно, безобразие.
Ну, и еще один момент, от которого я просто пришел в ужас. Оказывается, человеку, который бросал башмаки в Буша, грозит 7,5 лет тюрьмы. Ну, действительно, - настоящая демократия. Парню, который убил ребенка, забыв его в машине, не грозит уже ничего! Американцы даже не собираются опротестовывать решение судьи. А человеку, который бросил башмаки в Буша - 7,5 лет. Это что? Цена башмаков, цена жизни и защита гражданских свобод? Что-то я плохо понимаю в системе правосудия и в демократических ценностях. Ну и, конечно, создан прецедент: дескать, если вам надоели ваши дети – оставьте их в машине на жаре. Они умрут, а вас не посадят. Куда катится Америка?
He sais he can't understand very well in the justice system and democratic values. You might probably want to suggest him to look that up in a dictionary too.
Майлзу Харрисону ГРОЗИЛО 10 лет тюрьмы.Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
Насколько я понимаю, у них нет для этого законных оснований. Американская судебная система так устроена. Там два раза за одно и то же преступление не судят.Quote:
Американцы даже не собираются опротестовывать решение судьи.
It's not only my absurd conclusion. Vlasimir Soloview isn't communist, isn't ultra-nationalist and isn't stupid. He lectured in economics at the University of Alabama, 1992-1994. He's a Jew (or semi-jew). However, that's what I found in his blog (the first paragraph is about western diplomatic workers or something that killed Russians. The second paragraph is what I'm talking about:Quote:
Originally Posted by mishau_
Видел сегодня министра иностранных дел РФ Сергея Лаврова. Говорил с ним о трагическом эпизоде, когда гражданин на «Порше» убил двух студентов. Как вы знаете, в частности, после нашего эфира, (хотя, конечно, не только из-за этого), вызывали посла Германии для дачи объяснений в МИД. Он обещал всячески помочь расследованию. Хотя, есть ощущение, что, к сожалению, никуда ничего не двинется. Получается удивительная ситуация. Такой подход к жизни россиян, который проповедуют как немецкий сотрудник школы, убивший двух студентов, так и американский вице-консул, тяжело травмировавший человека и избежавший наказания. То есть, они все плодят "калоевых". И это, конечно, безобразие.
Ну, и еще один момент, от которого я просто пришел в ужас. Оказывается, человеку, который бросал башмаки в Буша, грозит 7,5 лет тюрьмы. Ну, действительно, - настоящая демократия. Парню, который убил ребенка, забыв его в машине, не грозит уже ничего! Американцы даже не собираются опротестовывать решение судьи. А человеку, который бросил башмаки в Буша - 7,5 лет. Это что? Цена башмаков, цена жизни и защита гражданских свобод? Что-то я плохо понимаю в системе правосудия и в демократических ценностях. Ну и, конечно, создан прецедент: дескать, если вам надоели ваши дети – оставьте их в машине на жаре. Они умрут, а вас не посадят. Куда катится Америка?
He sais he can't understand very well in the justice system and democratic values. You might probably want to suggest him to look that up in a dictionary too.[/quote:2831c3he]
I'm happy to say it. I don't care what his qualifications are, the person who wrote that is either an idiot, suffering from paranoia, dishonestly peddling an agenda, or any combination of those three. I can see no other possible explanation for trying to use a gross simplifaction of a single specific case to justify condemnation of an entire justice system, and/ or "democratic values" in general, which, I repeat, have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the judicial process anyway.
[quote=Оля]Майлзу Харрисону ГРОЗИЛО 10 лет тюрьмы.[/quote:206mbjow]Я слышал, что грозило 2,5.Quote:
Originally Posted by "mishau_":206mbjow
Насколько я понимаю, у них нет для этого законных оснований. Американская судебная система так устроена. Там два раза за одно и то же преступление не судят. [/quote:206mbjow]У нас тоже не судят за одно дважды (статья 50 Конституции). Пока не откроют скрытые ранее обстоятельства.Quote:
[quote:206mbjow]Американцы даже не собираются опротестовывать решение судьи.