The Tsarnaev Brothers / Братья Царнаевы

Let's discuss these guys! What went wrong?

Who precisely are these Russian Federation citizens who are Islamic extremists, and how did this happen?
Where were these people (or their parents) during the USSR times - I can't imagine they were roaming free, in Islamic dress, praying five times a day and eating halal....? What caused so many Russian moslems to become radical in the last 22 years?

They would equally happily have bombed the marathon in Moscow, right? So they were not against the USA in particular, just Western values or whatever? What do you think?

And there have been many instances of moslem extremist attacks in Russia, right? What exactly do these people want, and why do they hate Russia?

Would love to hear what Russian people and others have to say about this...

Djokhar Tsarnaev cover star of Rolling Stone magazine - how did that happen?
http://media.baltinfo.ru/photo/new/64758.jpg

Obviously Djokhar Tsarnaev cannot be released to society, but it scares me to think what the USA will do with him. Lock him up in solitary confinement for a decade, and then execute him with a lethal injection, probably!

And who here, like some... believe it was all a conspiracy and the brothers are innocent or useful idiots "allowed" to complete their attack?

What I have read about T-brothers makes me think that T Jr. is a close to 100% product of USA culture. He spent half of his life (from 10 to 19 years) in USA and was integrated well into society. And I tend to think that Tamerlan as well. USA provided them with some level of life and ambitions to be "champions" but not the proper ideology to put ambitions to good so they selected radical islam. A guy of non-islamic origin would go to nearby school and kill some children.

Muslim terrorists/guerilla in Russia usually have rather different reasons and different way.

Radical muslim sects hate everybody including the other radical muslim sects. Why? Because.
Where did it all come from? Well, you better ask those who helped to create the Taliban sect back in the day.

That's a brilliant example of when I wouldn't mind someone's private information on the web exposed so that those fellows' plans would've been revealed, and they would've gone to jail for the rest of their lives instead of blowing up dozens of ppl... (hey SnowdenThread)

If people kept a better eye on their kids and didn't let them lose on the internet or float about after school, then that's a more efficient way to keep them safe from pedophiles! The odds of becoming a victim of the pedophile is not high at all, and there are much bigger risks, like for example being hurt in a car accident.
It's a poor excuse and totally over the top for stifling free speech online and behaving like some kind of modern day Stasi. In fact it's a kind of blackmail to say that "unless you are in favour of spying on eveyrone online, you support pedophiles".

Same thing with terrorism. Terrorism will calm down the minute US and European troops pull out of all Middle Eastern countries and leave them alone. Foreign meddling in this area is the states reasons for all terrorist attacks taking place in Europe or the USA - and the number of such attacks is not high to begin with. Integrating existing Moslems in Europe/USA and not allowing any more into Europe. But it seems the powers to be has decided it's more convenient to continue to exploit their countries for oil and other assets, to continue keeping bases there against the will of the locals and instead spy on everyone to catch the potential opponents of this policy.

Why don't you investigate what is going on in Russia? Many here are 'left-wing' democrat types of Russians. They'll just say the same thing.

Putin wants a EurAsia so these types of people are in Russia. I don't quite recall the exact specifics but I think it was something like 1 in 8 newcomers are migrants from the Islamic republics or Asia. Something like that. Maybe worse. There's a lot of mosques in Russia and the number has been climbing. Putin doesn't give a flying **** who is there as long as they shut up and be like the rest of the sheep (and silently support him). I could go on but either American morons or Russian 'Putinists' will have some excuse or 'rationalization' for it. The USA also doesn't care. There were even conspiracies for this event but I think the Americans have shown enough incompetence and wrongdoings (i.e. unethical actions) when it comes to 'terrorists' by now. I think I've noticed you post on it before. So, why ask these questions? :)

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Same thing with terrorism. Terrorism will calm down the minute US and European troops pull out of all Middle Eastern countries and leave them alone. Foreign meddling in this area is the states reasons for all terrorist attacks taking place in Europe or the USA - and the number of such attacks is not high to begin with. Integrating existing Moslems in Europe/USA and not allowing any more into Europe. But it seems the powers to be has decided it's more convenient to continue to exploit their countries for oil and other assets, to continue keeping bases there against the will of the locals and instead spy on everyone to catch the potential opponents of this policy.

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That's true. It's an agenda, a global agenda and the foreign policy is to interfere when it benefits this imperialist purpose. Also, it's a military strategy.

It's also profitable to have high immigration and multiculturalism so follow the money. Does it make sense to have so many people that hate your guts in your own country? Those Chechnens or whatever they were tweeted, texted or communicated several times their disgust with 'American' and Western civilization. That is, if you believe the official reports. Regardless, it defies logic to say, I want cheap labour or pick some insignificant reason to have so many people with the eventual outcome of so many hating your country and citizens. At best. they're indifferent and don't really care to be there but take advantage of the benefits. At worst, they are disillusioned and easy to radicalize.

14Russian, I don't really understand where you are coming from in terms of politics. In one post you are against "left" (I presume socialist) leaning Russians. Then you critisize Putin, followed by some serious stabs at the USA + capitalism while also saying that Russia needs "cheap labour" (i.e. a pro-capitalism statement). The only thing I see you support consistently, is anti-islam, anti-immigration from Central Asia. Are you more of a nationalist? If so, is there any political party or movement in Russia that represents your views?

For me, I think socialism and communism is more appealing than capitalism. I am definitely anti-imperialist and I also support Green objectives. However, I am well aware that achieving communism is almost impossible, and socialism is susceptible to corruption, can encourage laziness and that there have been many failures. Basically, unless human nature changes or there is exceptionally good leadership it will be incredibly hard to succeed with any type of Marxist ideology.

I really don't see capitalism as a good alternative either and I think it's heading for a big crash. I also strongly dislike the foreign policy of the USA. And don't even get me started on immigration/"refugees".

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Originally Posted by it-ogo

What I have read about T-brothers makes me think that T Jr. is a close to 100% product of USA culture. He spent half of his life (from 10 to 19 years) in USA and was integrated well into society. And I tend to think that Tamerlan as well. USA provided them with some level of life and ambitions to be "champions" but not the proper ideology to put ambitions to good so they selected radical islam. A guy of non-islamic origin would go to nearby school and kill some children.

Muslim terrorists/guerilla in Russia usually have rather different reasons and different way.

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Tamerlan should have left some manifesto or something to explain himself!
I mean, what's the point of going out and doing some radical manifestation without explaining the reason?
That would be killing just for the sake of it. For almost any cause he actually supports, his actions didn't achieve anything! It certainly did not make more Americans reflect on their country's foreign policies and it certainly did not endear him to Russia where he was already under surveillance.

I think there is a small chance they were somehow set up, or allowed to carry out their attack. The reason for that is that it doesn't make a great deal of sense otherwise. I mean why would Djokhar ruin his life; he was in a good university and he was "well integrated" in America. They were not radical moslems - Neither was praying regularly, they did not have a beard and did not stick to halal meat.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Who precisely are these Russian Federation citizens who are Islamic extremists, and how did this happen?

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Propaganda rules the world
Older brother had Russian citizenship, formally, because he was born while Kyrgyzstan was part of the USSR
Younger brother doesn't have Russian citizenship at all but he is the citizen of the US, that makes him so much PITA that Western press is feverishly trying to stamp him with "Russian citizenship brand" not to besmirch democratic ideals of the US

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I mean, what's the point of going out and doing some radical manifestation without explaining the reason?

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I hope the one who says that is stopped before she can "do some radical manifestation" and "explain the reason"; (I guess it would be something like "I'm sick of the evil capitalist/corporatist world", but, as I said, I hope it never happens)

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I mean, what's the point of going out and doing some radical manifestation without explaining the reason?
That would be killing just for the sake of it. For almost any cause he actually supports, his actions didn't achieve anything! It certainly did not make more Americans reflect on their country's foreign policies and it certainly did not endear him to Russia where he was already under surveillance.

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Probably they wanted to prove something to themselves rather than to anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

14Russian, I don't really understand where you are coming from in terms of politics.

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That's because you're an 'EU socialist.' ;)

If you think 'capitalism' per se is the root of America's troubles, you could investigate further. Go on youtube and type in 'USSA.' Crony capitalism and corruption but with socialist politics. Capitalism needs competition for it to be a workable system and too often, greed, corruption and Government intervention steers it away from the only way it works at all.

I just know that Governments, special interest groups and powerful individuals always want 'socialism' or communism for the masses. Globalism is heading that way, too. The sheeple just don't understand yet but some people are waking up (well, sorta). Governments and Corporatism promote crony capitalism with socialist elements for the people.

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Originally Posted by 14Russian

That's because you're an 'EU socialist.' ;)

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Only on Saturdays... ;-)
On Sundays I am social conservative and on Mondays I am Green!

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Only on Saturdays... ;-)
On Sundays I am social conservative and on Mondays I am Green!

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No doubt. It's the logic of leftists. :)

Quoth Hanna:
"Obviously Djokhar Tsarnaev cannot be released to society, but it scares me to think what the USA will do with him. Lock him up in solitary confinement for a decade, and then execute him with a lethal injection, probably!"

Six weeks of Swedish Rehabilitation? OR Tossed in a Russian prison where he can die of tuberculosis?
In Russia he would be dead already.

"And who here, like some... believe it was all a conspiracy and the brothers are innocent or useful idiots "allowed" to complete their attack?"

rt.com

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

That's a brilliant example of when I wouldn't mind someone's private information on the web exposed so that those fellows' plans would've been revealed, and they would've gone to jail for the rest of their lives instead of blowing up dozens of ppl... (hey SnowdenThread)

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As for me, I don't really care if PRISM reads my emails and stuff. Unless they start arresting people who forgot to brush their teeth then I'm safe, lol.
But PRISM = FAIL. It was operating when the Tsarnaev brothers were making their plans online.

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Perhaps if we were doing the targeted surveillance envisioned by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., when he wrote the Patriot Act, we wouldn't need so many potential security risks.
It boggles the mind that we didn't listen to the Russians when they warned about the Tsarnaev brothers in part because, well, they're the Russians. But we want to preserve the records of every housewife in Des Moines because data mining that arguably invades the privacy rights of innocent Americans might reveal something.
One person whose privacy was not invaded by U.S. intelligence was Tamerlan Tsarnaev, as he repeatedly visited the al-Qaida online magazine Inspire for its recipe "Build a Bomb in the Kitchen of Your Mom."
The NSA's blanket surveillance did not detect Tsarnaev's interest in building the pressure cooker bombs he would use to devastating effect at the Boston Marathon. The massive databases that we are building a massive facility in Utah to store also failed to uncover the online communications that Tsarnaev had with a known Muslim extremist in Dagestan.

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Author James Sensenbrenner Says NSA Exceeded Patriot Act Authority - Investors.com

They put his face on Rolling Stone magazine. :evil: Not good! They should have put Maria Brink's face on that instead! :mrgreen: That would be worth looking at!
Btw, this is the first time I knew that the Tsarnaev brothers aren't Russian. All our media said they were Russian. Our media is Fail again.

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Btw, this is the first time I knew that the Tsarnaev brothers aren't Russian. All our media said they were Russian

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No wonder at all. Who cares about minor inconsistencies such as that they're Chechens whose culture is completely different from Russians and that they look really different from ethnic Russians? They came to the US from the Russian terrirory so they're Russians :D

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Who precisely are these Russian Federation citizens who are Islamic extremists, and how did this happen?
Where were these people (or their parents) during the USSR times - I can't imagine they were roaming free, in Islamic dress, praying five times a day and eating halal....? What caused so many Russian moslems to become radical in the last 22 years?
They would equally happily have bombed the marathon in Moscow, right? So they were not against the USA in particular, just Western values or whatever? What do you think?
And there have been many instances of moslem extremist attacks in Russia, right? What exactly do these people want, and why do they hate Russia?
?

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В СССР все злые люди были задавлены сильной государственной машиной. Господствовала интернациональная идеология (коммунизм), все были пионерами и ходили в школу. О вооружённом выступлении басмачей и прочих террористов не могло быть и речи. Потом государственную машину сломали, идеологию тоже. Народ был очарован в основном идеями свободы ("go west" pet shop boys). Но поднял голову и национализм. В центральной России они являются маргиналами и не взяли власть, но на Кавказе им это удалось. Плюс внешний фактор: другие страны стали им помогать деньгами, людьми и идеологически чтобы продолжить распад империи (отколоть от России ещё кусок территории). В итоге раскололась не Россия, а чеченский народ. Часть уехала на Запад (Европа, США), часть на Восток (Турция и т.д.), часть в лесах (это исламские интернационалисты), часть их ловит (это чеченские националисты), часть живёт в Москве и большой России и т.д. И кто из них попадёт под влияние мусульманских террористов - это угадать невозможно. В смертники могут завербовать даже студента высшего учебного заведения в Москве. Ну а в случае Царнаевых, завербовали в США. В принципе, чеченские террористы не воюют против США, так как США их поддерживали и поддерживают. Поэтому все террористические организации открестились от Царнаевых, сказав, что это не их люди.
В общем, Царнаевы - это случай, казус, нонсенс так как чеченцы не плюют в колодец. США их принимает, даёт жить, проводить свою пропаганду. В отношении США действует принцип: "враг моего врага - мой друг". Россия для чеченцев враг. Для США тоже. Поэтому США для чеченцев друг.

Что касается мотивации чеченского террора, то она может быть разной.
1. Кто-то является идеалистом и верит в светлое будущее исламского халифата или в рай после гибели на джихаде.
2. Кто-то зарабатывает таким образом. В Чечне ведь нет просто бандитов. Но там есть "идейные борцы с режимом". А методы у них такие же, как у простых бандитов из Москвы: облагают данью (рекет, вымогательство). Единственное отличие: они снимают фильмы для отчёта спонсорам.

Вообще чеченский террор начинался как национальное движение за отделение Чечни. Чем дальше, тем больше он движется в сторону интернационального (ислама), так как спонсоры дают деньги не для того, чтобы они стали счастливы в своей Чечне.

Царнаевы были наверное идеалистами. И повлияла на них интернациональная исламская идея, а не национальная чеченская идея. А старший из них наверное был агентом спецслужб США. Не зря его убили.

Yurka, thank you! That really answers many of my questions and confusion over this.

We'll never know who Tamerlan Tsarnaev worked for or not, since they shot him dead.
And the younger son will never get an opportunity to speak.

What drove them in particular will remain a mystery. But you answered many of my questions about radical moslems in Russia.

PressTV has done some really insightful features on moslem converts or "born-again" muslims in Russia; it seems to be quite a movement and some of them seem very sympathetic and they are certainly very intellectual.

For example, here is an interesting documentary: An Iranian woman goes looking for a Russian ex supermodel who converted to Islam [The Heart of Snow - In search of Masha Alalykina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ouPpDBI6ec

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Originally Posted by Hanna

But you answered many of my questions about radical moslems in Russia.

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Рад помочь. Я несколько лет общался с чеченцами на их форумах. Поэтому знаю на эту тему чуть больше, чем средний российский обыватель.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

For example, here is an interesting documentary: An Iranian woman goes looking for a Russian ex supermodel who converted to Islam [The Heart of Snow - In search of Masha Alalykina]

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Я про эту бывшую солистку группы "Фабрика" смотрел фильм на русском языке на канале НТВ: ссылка.
Сейчас она живёт в Дагестане. По сути она сменила культурную среду, отказалась от своей культуры. Дагестанцы говорят о ней, что в России она жила в нравственной грязи, а теперь в нравственной чистоте. Она с этим видимо согласна.
Вообще это явление, когда кавказцы обращают в свою веру и образ жизни наших девушек, я могу прокомментировать так.

1. Наши люди воспитаны как правило в интернациональном духе. Прична в том, что мы в империи выполняем роль объединителя и в том, что долгое время нас воспитывали на коммунистической идеологии (а она тоже интернациональна). Поэтому мы дважды интернациональны. Поэтому наши девушки как правило открыты для брака с другими народами. Причём, они не представляют, в какой степени на окраинах господствует другая идеология (национализм). Поэтому они морально не готовы противостоять чужой идеологии. У них розовые очки, они думают, что все люди братья и так далее.

2. В центральной России крепки традиции матриархата (или как минимум равноправия полов). На окраинах крепки традиции патриархата. Наши девушки не представляют, что это такое (особенно в крайних своих проявлениях). Но их привлекает всё необычное. Патриархальное воспитание кавказских мальчиков они воспринимают как их особенную мужественность.

3. Под влияние чужой культуры попадают чаще всего слабохарактерные люди, не чувствующие своих корней, "отбившиеся от дома". Творческие люди (артисты и т.д.) часты бывают такими. Поэтому я не удивлён, что дувушку из шоу-бизнеса качнуло в ислам.