Think this goes under the politics section....KURSK

What did y'all think about that submarine "kursk" going down back in 2000 with all 118 people lost? I was angry as hell at Putin. USA offers to help. Putin goes "nyet." I think he was worried about secrets. More worried about damned secrets on a SUBMARINE then about the lives of living people! Befor August 2000 I was like "Oh, Russia has a new president. Ehhhh...." After August 2000 I was like "I hate putin." I even saw on the news where this one woman who lost a loved one on the submarine was flipping out at putin, and someone who was there stuck her with a needle that had something in it to make her shut up. Well...Putin....ex KGB chief.....member of the old boys club....whatta ya expect anyway?
Oh. Excuse me for the little bitch session but I felt I had to comment on this.

Why be mad at Putin?

You must understand the Russian state of mind. Russia is a proud people... They can do things on their own. When the big bad USA comes to town wanting to help, Russia doesn't want / need their help.

As I have said before. If the only victory for Russia is with help (from America), then it's not really a true victory.

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Why be mad at Putin?

You must understand the Russian state of mind. Russia is a proud people... They can do things on their own. When the big bad USA comes to town wanting to help, Russia doesn't want / need their help.

As I have said before. If the only victory for Russia is with help (from America), then it's not really a true victory.

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Forgive me, but
What have you been smoking?
If Russia couldn't get 'em out on their own, then they obviously did need help.
Perhaps Putin should have asked the Russian people what they wanted (hee). I know what they would have said. I think you do too.
I know you are like, a Neo Bolshevik or something, but no body goes through life without having help sometimes. Stalin needed help to fight the Nazis.
Looking for help is a sign of strength not weakness.
I totally understand Russia's distrust of the West, that's been around for centuries. Xenophobia I think it is called. Westerners looked down on them as if they were not as good as them. That was nasty. So I totally understand their distrust.
It will be a happy world when we all learn to get along, cooperate and help each other, not hurt each other. We cannot cut ourselves off totally from the rest of the world; so we must learn to live/survive within it.
If it was me, I would have accepted the help.

What have I been smoking? Besides some harmless сорняков, absolutely nothing.

Listen (wo)man. As much as it's cool that you want to help, you've still got that western mentallity.

It's not just with Kursk, (And stop calling me a f*cking bolshevik, it's common knowledge of russian culture.)For example with Beslan.

If American special forces offered help i 100% GAR- UN- TEE you Russia would have said no (they already did once in the past. After the theater incident a few years ago, some delta force guys and CIA guys went to Moscow to offer their help. Russia said "Thanks but no thanks.").

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Stalin needed help to fight the Nazis.

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No, Im afriad he didn't. I'm tired of americans telling british people and french people that they would be speaking german if it wasn't for them.

First, the British succesfully defeated the Axis for the battle of britain(By the time the invasion took place in france in 1944, Allies had like 99% domination of the skies over europe).

Also, by the time the americans landing in france in 1944, russia was what ? already in warsaw or something? Stalin would have eventually pushed Hilter all the way back. After stalingrad, and behind russia's Millions and millions of T-34s, Hitler was doomed.

So, i hate to break it to you, but im no more communist than the average russian (or iraqi... Seriosuly, i mean YAY we "liberated" (and i use this word losely) iraq and all, but we are still in their country... still in their space). Go ahead, ask any russian on this forum, i dare you. Or maybe i'll do it for you.

Would you like America to send to troops to Russia to help investigate in your accidents? How about to tell you what you did wrong in Beslan?

I'm not a mind reader, no, and not a communist, no, but, the answer, yes, i think i know it.

I couldn't wait for an answer, I had to get on ICQ Сразу!

Convo with anonymous Russian.

Matt (19:51) :
Man
Matt (19:51) :
wtf am i right?
Matt (19:51) :
About America to help Russia
Matt (19:52) :
You guys don't want our help

***** (19:53) :
We wouldn't ;)
***** (19:57) :
I think it's just matter of pride
We are not some france or holland

WOW. Isn't that exactly what i said above? Hm let me guess. This guy is a bolshevik commie nazi too.

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totally understand Russia's distrust of the West, that's been around for centuries. Xenophobia I think it is called. Westerners looked down on them as if they were not as good as them. That was nasty. So I totally understand their distrust.

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NO. You just don't understand Russia.
I don't think Russia really gives a damn about the west.

I mean, it's lovely that you want to help and all, but i must repeat. It's American (Candian in your case) western mentality to think that everyone else in the world wants our help. Clearly, they don't.

Yeah man, we kind of did need Stalin to fight the Nazis. They wanted Stalingrad so hardcore that they diverted a major amount of their effort to it. If the Russians hadn't defended it so valiantly, I doubt we would be speaking German, but we would have a couple fewer nukes ;-).

And the Russian submercables would have worked if Communism hadn't @@@@@@ their technology over so hardcore. (I.e. crappy crappy batteries)

i think like 80% of the casualties of WWII Were eastern Eurpian/CCCP counties.

America lost less than a million
Allies total lost maybe almost a million
Germany a few million
Russia like 16 Million.

I know the real facts are out there somewhere, but this is just a ballpark guess from what I can remember.

And, it brings us back to the fact that... The western allies wanted Stalin to do all the fighting, and Stalin, wanted to do all the fighting. He wanted to be the glorious Russian leader who defeated the evil facists, which brings me back to my original statement of RUSSIAN PRIDE W00t W00t!

Dogboy, I'm impressed. Btw I don't think the figures are quite right, for example I think it was 20 million for Russia, but whatever, nobody ever calculates these things correctly. The point is not changed by the exact number.

And now I'm going to be in danger of infringing copyright, but here is a very interesting quote from the Lonely Planet "Russia and Belarus" 3rd Edition June 2003, p. 362:

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Originally Posted by Lonely Planet

One conspiracy theory that has drifted to the surface and can't be submerged: there is reasonable evidence that the Kursk collided with a US submarine. Russian military officials claimed to have found a fragment of a foreign vessel 330m from the scene of the catastrophe. Moreover, the US Memphis, which first detected the explosions, took an abnormally long time to reach the Norwegian port of Bergen, which indicates that it may have been damaged. Both Russian and Norwegian military sources have stated that the Memphis underwent repairs in Bergen, and that the wives of 12 of its crewmembers were urgently and secretly flown to Norway.
Such a collision would not be unique. There have been more than a dozen collisions between Russian and US submarines, all of which have been officially denied by the USA.

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Well, who knows, but maybe Russia doesn't need this kind of 'help'.

Waxwing :wink: .

Still want to supress the American man's travel rights? :cry: :cry:

I think you confused me with badmanners. Check the post again.

On the other hand, I think the Brazilian govt.'s decision to fingerprint all American visitors was really funny :lol:

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Originally Posted by Светлана Ежова

If Russia couldn't get 'em out on their own, then they obviously did need help.

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It is well known that the men trapped inside lived only a few hours. Some say they lived up to two days, but that does not change anything. American involvement would not save those men.

You should also remember that there had been a number of submarine collisions, and it had always been an American sub vs a Russian sub. Thinking that it was yet another collision with an American sub was most natural in that situation, and that would obviously exclude any possibility of American help, for fear that they would use the opportunity to destroy any evidence.

Again, the men were doomed in any case, so I fail to see what help the Americans could provide.

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Perhaps Putin should have asked the Russian people what they wanted (hee). I know what they would have said. I think you do too.

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Please explain how Putin could have asked the Russian people. The only way to do so would be through a nation wide referendum. Do you know what time it takes to conduct one?

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Stalin needed help to fight the Nazis.

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He accepted help because it was stupid not to. But that help did not appear until late 1941, when all the fronts had stabilized and that help was nice to have but far from vital. If there was a nation in dire need for help, that would be the British.

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I totally understand Russia's distrust of the West, that's been around for centuries. Xenophobia I think it is called. Westerners looked down on them as if they were not as good as them.

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Looked down? Well, if you definition of "looking down" includes public discussion of atomic bombardment that would destroy all the major Russian cities and kill off most of the population, then, yes, the Westerners did look down.

How exactly do subs collide??
We have some pretty powerful sonar devices around here, and as long as one of the two sonar stations was actually paying attention, the only way this could happen is if one sub literally rear-ended the other.

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Originally Posted by waxwing

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Originally Posted by Lonely Planet

One conspiracy theory that has drifted to the surface and can't be submerged: there is reasonable evidence that the Kursk collided with a US submarine. Russian military officials claimed to have found a fragment of a foreign vessel 330m from the scene of the catastrophe. Moreover, the US Memphis, which first detected the explosions, took an abnormally long time to reach the Norwegian port of Bergen, which indicates that it may have been damaged. Both Russian and Norwegian military sources have stated that the Memphis underwent repairs in Bergen, and that the wives of 12 of its crewmembers were urgently and secretly flown to Norway.
Such a collision would not be unique. There have been more than a dozen collisions between Russian and US submarines, all of which have been officially denied by the USA.

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If my memory serves me correctly, Kursk was on an exercise to fire 'supercavitating' torpedoes. Such torpedoes release high-pressure gas into the water in order to create a 'bubble' in order to travel more quickly. If the doors in the torpedo compartment were closed, it would become very uncomfortable in there. So, perhaps many doors throughout the submarine were open. Liquid propellant in supercavitating torpedoes reacts with metal to create hydrogen and oxygen gas, as well as heat. Therefore, the propellant leaks out, and creates its own self-sustaining fire. But then, a second explosion, comparable to a warhead armed aboard the Oscar-II class. There we go, logic at last.

I don't think I understand how torpedo launching works. Are you saying that the doors to the torpedo launching area had to be open because the torpedos create a high pressure field? Why would they be creating such a field inside the ship? I thought that torpedoes were launched by a boat-based mechanism, then started doing their independent routines. It seems like an awfully bad idea for them to start releasing gas inside the boat.

When explaining this, please bear in mind that all my knowledge of submarines is based on a combination of my loopy retired submariner uncle's ramblings and that stupid movie where Denzel Washington starts a mutiny.

I don't know why they release their gas in the vessel, however I have read numerous reports claiming they do.

Fluid dynamics 101: Cavitation occurs when, the propellor of a vessel moves so quickly, that it creates an area of very low pressure around it. This causes the boiling point of the water to become less than its current temperature. It vaporizes. However, the air-bubbles are not stable, and when the leave the low pressure zone, they violently implode, which can cause damage to the propellor and whatnot. Generally cavitation is a bad thing. Also, it creates noise, which is the enemy of the submariner.

Supercavitation occurs when, sustained low pressure occurs and the projectile or vessel is completely surrounded by the gases. Water is many many times more dense than water, and therefore creates many times more drag. So, if the projectile is surrounded by the sustained gas bubble as it moves, it encounters much less resistance.

The Soviets created a torpedo, named Шквал, which takes advantage of such supercavitation and can allegedly travel at up to 500mph. It directs some of its rocket :o exhaust out the cavitators in the nose to supplement and help sustain the supercavitation. At that speed the torpedo could easily destroy any vessel, however the Soviets outfitted it with a nuclear warhead. :lol:

Here is a good link : http://www.deepangel.com/html/the_squall.html

And here is what it would kind of look like:
http://www.military.cz/russia/navy/w...l/Shkval_1.jpg

Or like this...
http://www.docuverse.com/blog/donpar...s/supercav.jpg

Now that I think of it, if they could break the speed of sound they would be entirely uncounterable... (Because they would outrun their sonar signatures)

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

How exactly do subs collide??

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I don't know the details, but are you really trying to suggest it never happens? Because that would be way more wacky than the conspiracy theory I posted :)

Incidentally I do now remember when a British Navy guy came and gave us a talk about nuc. sub design (I was doing a nuclear reactors msc) .. very interesting, giving us info on how the subs are basically utterly undetectable due to the noise reduction techniques used - of course this is only possible with a nuclear reactor for power.
Also the materials they use to make these super-compact reactors are just incredible, I forget now, but it is incredibly expensive.

For example during the Falklands war we only sent out one nuclear sub and it may as well have been 20 as far as the Argies were concerned, because it could be anywhere.

Btw people sometimes get confused, nuclear submarine doesn't necessarily mean nuclear warheads. It means nuclear-powered. Allows them to basically go anywhere in the world undetected, and stay out at sea for 6 months at a time (or whatever).

I don't think that their colliding would be all that surprising, and afaict it's happened before.

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Originally Posted by waxwing

I don't know the details, but are you really trying to suggest it never happens? Because that would be way more wacky than the conspiracy theory I posted :)

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No, of course not, however, if they aren't silent it is rather hard to do I would think.

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Originally Posted by waxwing

For example during the Falklands war we only sent out one nuclear sub and it may as well have been 20 as far as the Argies were concerned, because it could be anywhere.

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Oh, God bless you Brits! May the spirit of Imperialism live within you for all eternity.

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Oh, God bless you Brits! May the spirit of Imperialism live within you for all eternity.

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And your little brothers, the Americans!

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Originally Posted by Pravit

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Oh, God bless you Brits! May the spirit of Imperialism live within you for all eternity.

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And your little brothers, the Americans!

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HOOAH!

You keep stackin em up, and i keep knocken em down. That's right nubs, i'm talking to YOU.

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

Now that I think of it, if they could break the speed of sound they would be entirely uncounterable... (Because they would outrun their sonar signatures)

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Very interesting. And since the speed of sound travells about 5 times faster underwater than it does in air it may be easier than you think to break the speed of sound excep.....t then we run into the problem of "uncounterable or not"? What I am getting at is that when you break the speed of sound in air you get a sonic boom . So I would imagine that breaking the speed of sound underwater would produce an even bigger "disturbance" since water is a better conductor of sound than air. What say ye?

The speed of sound underwater is about 1.6km/s.

Also, I think they would be more occupied with the massive DEATH than the sonic boom to follow.

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

Also, I think they would be more occupied with the massive DEATH than the sonic boom to follow.

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Are they really, fatal?

How do aircraft (passenger liners like the concord) and fighter jets break the speak of sound and manage not to die ?

Seeing how the Russians outifit their Shkvalls with nukes, yes, fatal.

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

How exactly do subs collide??
We have some pretty powerful sonar devices around here, and as long as one of the two sonar stations was actually paying attention, the only way this could happen is if one sub literally rear-ended the other.

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Look up "Baton Rouge". It was decommissioned after such a collision. The Russian titanium-hull sub survived and now sports a star on her sail.

It may be the other way around, though. There is a lot of evidence supporting that at least two Russian subs sank following a collision with American submarines. One in the 60's (diesel), which led to the CIA-sponsored Glomar Explorer "salvage", another in 80's, just off the American shore (nuclear), both with thermonuclear warheads aboard.

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If my memory serves me correctly, Kursk was on an exercise to fire 'supercavitating' torpedoes.

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Nope. She had to test just a regular per-oxide powered torpedo. I do not even think she had Шквал.

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Now that I think of it, if they could break the speed of sound they would be entirely uncounterable... (Because they would outrun their sonar signatures)

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Why bother? They have their missile-torpedo combos, they launch one 100 miles away, it flies in the air (no underwater sound) and when it enters the other element it is too late to do anything.

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Originally Posted by waxwing

subs are basically utterly undetectable due to the noise reduction techniques used - of course this is only possible with a nuclear reactor for power.

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Nope. The nuclear submarines are the worst when it comes to silencing. Turbines and their reduction gear are inherently noisy, and the reactor is only silent at low power output levels. Conventional submarines are a lot less noisy when submerged. In the long run, though, conventional submarines will have to surface, and this is where the idyll breaks down.

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Originally Posted by Светлана Ежова

What did y'all think about that submarine "kursk" going down back in 2000 with all 118 people lost? I was angry as hell at Putin. USA offers to help. Putin goes "nyet." I think he was worried about secrets. More worried about damned secrets on a SUBMARINE then about the lives of living people! Befor August 2000 I was like "Oh, Russia has a new president. Ehhhh...." After August 2000 I was like "I hate putin."

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Accepting "help" from the people, who actually are responsible for drowning of submarine, seems to be a bit illogical.

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

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Originally Posted by Pravit

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Oh, God bless you Brits! May the spirit of Imperialism live within you for all eternity.

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And your little brothers, the Americans!

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HOOAH!

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Ugh.

I understand how low-pressure fields work as a means of propulsion; I'm reasonably educated. My question was WHY would a Шквал create such a field in the ship? And even if it did, wouldn't the boat's designers have built in some sort of control other than, oh, OPENING THE INTERIOR HATCHES? BM, can you back up your claim with any sort of documentation? I'm finding this entire scenario rather unlikely.

Repeat. It was. An ordinary. Kerosene/per-oxide. Torpedo.

The supercavitating torpedoes, as you can easily guess, will not start their main engine in the boat, just like missiles will not start their main engine in the same boat. Both will start their engines when they are far enough from the boat.

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A second, but less likely, cause of the fire is a solid rocket motor on a VA-111 Shkval super-cavitating torpedo. Explosive squibs generally utilised to initiate and light off a rocket motor are susceptible to static electricity.

"Normal handling of these motors requires a very specific set of actions and procedures to prevent initiation. If an inexperienced sailor made a mistake during torpedo loading the rocket motor could light off in the torpedo tube or room. It would likely take place at the moment when the torpedo is almost completely in the torpedo tube and the firing cables are being hooked up.

"A static discharge or a stray voltage in the firing cable results in rocket motor firing and the flame and exhaust would be back into the torpedo room.

"And would most certainly instantly kill all personnel in the area, if not the entire compartment, and initiate fires in other torpedoes and fuel, possible fuel tanks."

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http://www.murman.ru/kurskmem/articles/torpedoe.html

I remember reading about the whole Kursk-Shkval thing in Scientifici American... I'll stop by the library and see if they still have that issue.

@Lindzi : Sorry, it seems I have mislead you. The doors were not left open to dissipate pressure from the torpedoes, but rather to help dissipate the loud sounds associated with launching a torpedo. This is against protocol but common practice in the Russian Navy.

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Originally Posted by Black Mage

@Lindzi : Sorry, it seems I have mislead you. The doors were not left open to dissipate pressure from the torpedoes, but rather to help dissipate the loud sounds associated with launching a torpedo. This is against protocol but common practice in the Russian Navy.

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Yep, this:

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Originally Posted by Black Mage

I don't know why they release their gas in the vessel, however I have read numerous reports claiming they do.

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would have been fairly misleading, had I believed you, of course. Luckily my brain is capable of rudimentary logic.

Of course, if what bad manners says is correct, the whole discussion is moot anyway, since there'd be no Skval to set aflame.

I'd do some research myself, except I don't actually care that much.

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Shkval class torpedo (53cm / 8m) was taken in use in 1977. Shkval torpedoes are launched with a help of a trigger that produces gas, shooting the torpedo out at a very high acceleration. This encapsulates the torpedo in a gas cavern, easing the water resistance and allowing it to go at a speed of up to 200 knots (normal torpedo speed is between 40 knots and 50 knots). It is believed that the two representatives from Dagdizel, which were onboard the Kursk, were testing a modification of Shkval’s propulsion.

Russian military daily, Red Star, published an article in August saying that the Kursk was refitted at Sevmash shipyard in Severodvinsk in 1998 to carry upgraded torpedoes. The newspaper does not say directly whether these were Shkval class torpedoes, but the description placed in the article fits Shkval’s characteristics. The newspaper reported that the Navy was against the new torpedoes, saying that they were difficult to store and dangerous to handle. These protests did not help much, however

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http://www.bellona.no/en/international/ ... 18468.html

Yay America!!!

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Supercavitation has obvious applications. Dropped from helicopters and airplanes, new torpedoes supercavitate from the moment they enter the water. A supercavitating torpedo would contact liquid water only at its nose and could outrun any ship; the Russian Shkval torpedo has been clocked at speeds up to 230 miles per hour. Researchers at the US Naval Undersea Warfare Center were able to fire unpowered supercavitating projectiles at speeds faster than the speed of sound in water, approximately 1 mile per second!

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"Normal handling of these motors requires a very specific set of actions and procedures to prevent initiation.

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If it does, then sailors would not be allowed to do it. But I doubt it. It may be true that launching a torpedo requires a complex sequence, but it is utter BS that preventing initiation requires any special action. All complex and highly destructive weaponry is fool proof in the extreme, and this is true in any country.

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If an inexperienced sailor made a mistake during torpedo loading the rocket motor could light off in the torpedo tube or room.

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Hardly. Those boats have probably more officers than sailors, and inexperienced sailors might watch the operation or, at most, carry out some actions under very close supervision.

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"A static discharge or a stray voltage in the firing cable results in rocket motor firing and the flame and exhaust would be back into the torpedo room.

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BS. Static and stray voltage is assumed when things like that are designed. Because it happens all the time in real world conditions. And those things are tested very thoroughly before they are commissioned.

I am no submarine expert, but I saw on a tv show about Kursk that it sank because of the material HDP (or smth like that) that is normally harmless but when you put it with certain metals it reacts and can explode. This tv show said that this was what happened with the Kursk. The Russians weren't aware of HDP's abilities to become dangerous and the circumstances it needed to become dangerous.

HDP, maybe HyDrogen Peroxide? The properties are similar.

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Originally Posted by BlackMage

HDP, maybe HyDrogen Peroxide? The properties are similar.

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Well, it did wonders for Madonna!

Yes, that's it. Hydrogen Peroxide. Спасибо большое.