yes there is russian orthodaox, and yes they have big old catherdrals too. but this is all i know.
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yes there is russian orthodaox, and yes they have big old catherdrals too. but this is all i know.
yeh i know about all that stuff... i just have some questions
I am not Orthodox, but as a history student, I know an irrational amount about certain subjects and Eastern Christianity is one of them. If you have questions (you know, about actual rituals and history and such, and not "why are you Russian Orthodox" or "When did you take communion for the first time?") I may well be able to answer them. Feel free to PM me.
I am Russian Orthodox.
(ya pravaslavnaya)
The Russian Orthodox church and Greek Orthodox church are extremely similar. This dates back to 1472 when Ivan III married the last heiress to the Byzantine throne (and no doubt the influential relationship between the Byzantine Empire and Russia existed previous to this period). From this, huge amounts of culture were integrated into Russia from the Byzantine Empire such as a majority of "Russian" names... Alexander, Yevgeny, Demitry, etc, all of these have Greek roots. When I lived in Greece as an exchange student our горничная who was from Russia was describing to me all the similarities she saw between Greek and Russian.
For instance in Greek the second person plural verbal conjugation is EXACTLY the same.
Russian: вы понимаете
English: you understand
Greek: eseis katalavainete
The second person singular verbal conjugation is also clearly similar to the Greek just with a little phonetic change. (The "ei" spelling is a Greek dypthong which is pronounced like Russian "и" )
Russian: ты понимаешь
English: you understand
Greek: esu katalavaneis
The language share a lot of grammatical similarities as well, and I wouldn't imagine either would pose much problems for either speaker. But I still find Russian much easier than Greek, maybe just cause I'm more passionat about it. :D
Russian and Greek Orthodox are the same faith. Saints Cyril and Methodius (the apostles to the Slavs), were sent by Constantinople to convert the Slavs in around 848. St. Cyril developed a written alphabet based on the Greek alphabet and institued the use of the Slavonic language for the liturgy.
Today both churches still use the same liturgy. Russian, Greek and English are used in each church according to what the parishioners speak. Our faith is the same, the only difference is that each church follows the cultural customs of it's ethnic group. (The Russian churches tend to be less Americanized than the Greek congregations)
i know all about the history and what not... i wanna compare Catholicism to Orthodoxy
The Catholics and the Orthodox were the same church until the schism in about 1058. We recognize many of the same saints and even had almost the same liturgy until Vatican II. The Orthodox do not recognize the Pope as the head of the Church but he is still considered the Bishop of Rome. And he is definately not considered infallible. The Catholics continually strive to make their church modern by changing the rules and customs. The Orthodox continually strive to maintain the original Church and it's original customs.
thats not quite so true actually...if you have ever read Vatican II documents... you would know it wasnt in place to modernize the liturgy... you should watch a mass in Vatican City... you will see that it is very much the same. except for placement of the altar and what not... minor things. It is only here in America where pop culture infultrates to suburban parishes like the one i attend. And the date is 1054. And also... Orthodox and Roman Catholics have never had the same liturgy. Roman Catholicism uses the Latin Rite and Orthodoxy uses the Byzantine Rite. The Church is made up of 22 different churches all who follow under the pope's leadership. There are Roman Catholics, and more notibally Greek Catholics as there are Greek Orthodox who use the same liturgy.
Check out the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I was strictly raised in the Catholic faith and for years attended Mass in Latin. ( My family was one of the first Catholic Families in Maryland and donated the land for the second oldest Catholic college in America, also my relatives include many nuns, priests and bishops). When Vatican II came we were suddenly saying the mass in a different form every week. This week the kyrie is in, next week it's out. Our heads were spinning. High mass started shrinking and we were forbidden from singing Tantum Ergo.
When I started working for the Greek Orthodox Church I noticed many things in the liturgy were very familier. As a matter of fact I could follow the liturgy without any problem. All of the words I knew from childhood were in their usual place. Now I have no interest in dissecting the mass and the liturgy word for word. I have read parts of Vatican II, I have studied Catholocism for all of my life, and I can only tell you my personal experience. I don't know or really care what the historian's or scholar's view of the two religions are. I only know my decision to change was a long and hard decision based on my personal quest for deeper spirituality.
P.S. please forgive all errors in dates and spelling- too much wine for lunch.
yeh... who would care about what a Monseignor-historian would say about Catholicism and Orthodoxy :roll: ... by the way... i dont know where you were raised... but i sing the kyrie everysunday... kyrie eleison christe eleison... then we sing Agnus Dei in latin... so maybe the church had a quick spurt of liberalism there and now its becoming a little more conservative.
The Catholic Church has always been and will always be a part of my life. I study both Catholic and non-Catholic texts and have no disrespect for any theologin because of his religious persuasion.
I was raised in the Los Angeles diocese. I still live and work in Los Angeles and frequently attend Catholic mass. But the church today is not the same as it was over 30 years ago. And every parish is not the same in their practices. I can attend a mass today in Palm Springs that is very different from the mass tomorrow at St. Monica's in Santa Monica.
Your original post was about Orthodoxy. Did you have a particular question about it?
For what it's worth, I believe that the reason mass in Vatican City is celebrated in the traditional Latin is that Latin is the official language of the Vatican City. Masses are, according to Vatican II, supposed to be said in the language of the region, are they not? Here they give them in Spanish, Polish and English, as those are the primary languages spoken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon8
Also, it is not only in the US suburbs where popular culture has modified the mass - having attended mass in several regions, I can personally say that every one has reflected the region's cultural norms. I imagine that the Vatican City's old style masses are simply another reflection of norms - in this case, the culture of the Vatican City - traditional, historical, and somewhat staid.
I think you explained it perfectly Linda. Even the rules concerning the sacraments differ from one Catholic church to another. I've been to some Catholic churches that will only let Catholics take communion and then gone to another one that invites everyone, even non Catholics, to communion.
In the Russian Orthodox churchs the liturgy is always the same. The rules are always the same. Even the (English and Slavonic) songs are the same.
what is behind the icon screen
The second case is a bending of the official rules, but I think it is a good illustration of the regionalism of the Catholic church - those people in the last century that were worried about Irish Catholics moving to the US because they would be loyal to the Pope and NOT to the US were being fairly silly. Catholicism is hardly a constant. Many Catholic parishes in Central and S. America certainly do not encourage the no-birth-control rule, either. I think that people have taken the regionalism encouraged by Vatican II beyond the original intentions of the people at that conference.Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
I do have an interest, but I won't do so here. 8) I will say this - Brandon8 was correct when he said that:Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
However, JB was also correct. It's all a matter of time period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon8
The Roman Church and the Byzantine Church were once one in the same; prior to a certain point they have a shared history, and used basically the same prayers and liturgy. There were some slight variations by geographic location, but it was basically the same. They split into the two wholly separate rites as the churches split - but as sisters, they might look and sound different, but they have the same genetic code, if you will. The rites come from the same sources, and as such, are very similar in content and structure.
Well, unless you'll never get to see it; the congregation isn't allowed back there :wink: but the Sanctuary is back there. My comp religion classes were a long time ago, but here's what I recall: There is the altar where the communion is prepared, a room where the preparation for the liturgy occurs, called the "proskomide" in Greek (I don't know its name in Russian, but I imagine it's similar or the same) and another room, which I cannot for the life of me remember what is for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon8
Yes , the altar and preparation tables are behind the iconostasis. The area or room on the south side of this sanctuary is called the diaconicon. It is like the western church's sacristy. This is where the vestments and altar vessels are kept.
The proskomide is in the north end of the sanctuary and the table there is called the prothesis. It is on this table that the communion bread is prepared.
In Orthodox churches the altar always faces the east, so the icon screen is in the eastern end of the building. Only the priests and their attendants (all male) are allowed behind the Royal Doors in these rooms. During the liturgy the doors are open and if you stand near the front you can see inside.
For insite into pre-Vatican II Catholocism read "Growing Up Catholic" by Meara/Stone/Kelly/Davis , Doubleday Publishing.
you dont need to clarify the fact that it came from a book... i believe you. I wish the catholic church wasnt so liberal... there is the problem. They think it needs to change for some reason. Really, it was fine the way it was. Except maybe for moving the altar. Thats about it
Nothing came from this book, it's just a fun read. It's my Catholic generation making fun of ourselves and enjoying some communal memories of the way the church was as we were growing up. An example of some chapter titles: "A Uniformed Girl's Guide To Fashion", "Father What-A-Waste","How To Be A Lapsed Catholic", and many more completely irreverent and funny takes on living through the church's changes.
whatever... im just mad that tradition (lower case t) has gone down the drain
Many other people are also upset about the loss of tradition. I miss the candles, incense, Latin mass, and all of the Catholic expressions of faith and spirituality that I shared with my ancestors. But the Catholic church is a constantly changing church and even though some congregations try to return to former customs the church leadership ultimately runs the show and determines the direction the church will go in.
The priest that chrismated me into the Orthodox faith was raised Irish Catholic in America. He was a wonderful choice for a spiritual father because he also still loved the Catholic church. But the Catholic church no longer provided what we both needed and the Orthodox church offered a path to continue the spiritual life that we had both experienced in an earlier Catholocism.
Many members of both the Catholic and Protestant faiths have converted to Orthodoxy because they desire the strong customs and unchanging traditions.
however... there are some Roman churches that use the latin mass... in my diocese... this "trend" has spread... hopefully it will again replace what used to be... also... if you wanted "unchanging customs" you should have checked out a Greek Catholic church
Yes it's true that the Eastern Rite Catholics have more steadfast traditions,(and their priests can even marry in some countries!), but we still have the problematic question of the Pope's infallibility. And now that we know our darling crush, Father What-A-Waste, was really only interested in the alterboys........... Kinda makes me think I left just in the nick of time.
hmm... well no Catholic nor the Catholic church has said that her clergy is perfect... but an overestimation at the conferance of catholic bishops estimates 500 abusive priests... these abuses occured in the 60s and 70s. Now i know i cant convince you about the pope... but facts are facts when it comes to the scandal... people are blowing it out of proportion. when you take 500 out of the 500,000 priests worldwide... it isnt too big of a percentage now is it? But 500 priests are 500 to many... and all Byzantine Rite catholic priests can be married and then be ordained... they cant be ordained, and then get married. Either way you put it... people in the orthodox faith should still respect us and acknowledge there is only a "small crack" in between our two faiths. We are both apostolic... we acknowledge one anothers orders and bishops
... believe me... it has happened in EVERY denomination.. even in orthodoxy...you make think your Church is perfect... but the clergy isnt and some things like that have occured
One of the refreshing concepts of the Orthodox Church is that no man and no church is perfect or infallible. All humans are suseptable to sin and must strive constantly to avoid it. All churches can testify to every kind of sin being commited by their clergy. The Catholic Clergy's mistake was not just the sin, but that they followed orders from the top to cover it up and defend themselves at expense of the victims. We're not talking just a few isolated incidents here and there, we talking Church policy all the way from Rome. This is the sin that all Catholics and everyone else is upset about. It also has the Church in the hot seat legally.
kind of like an altar rail????
and guys stop arguing with each other.
I thought the altar rail and icon screen were just different versions of the same idea. But according to the book "Why Do Catholics Do That"? by Kevin Orlin Johnson PH.D., the Catholic church building is modeled after the Roman law court. A rectangular hall for the assembly with a raised platform at one end for the judge. The altar rail would approximate the railing in the courts that seperated the procedings from the spectators.
The other diference is the calendar. Russians have the old calendar and we have changed some things. For example Greek Easter is in a diferrent period than Russian etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
What do you mean that Greek church is Americanised? How can an orthodox church be Americanised? Can you explain further?
Have you also noticed the similarity in Greek and Latin 1st person?Quote:
Originally Posted by zelenymal'chik
I love = agapo / amo
I think this thread is as old as Orthodoxy :wink: .
Orthodoxy is not very old :D . It is older compared to Catholic or Protestant church but not very old.Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
And I am still waiting your anwser about 'Americanization'. That can be considered an insult by some. It is good to state something when you talk about it :) .
Since I "talked about it" 2 years ago I had to read the whole thread to figure out what you are talking about.
In America the Greek Churches have adapted to American customs.( My friends who have been to Greece tell me that the Church in Greece has not taken on these changes). Pews and organ music along with lack of head covering and "sexy" attire for women are just a few of the Americanizations that have caused a disapproving glance from the Russian Orthodox in America. But in all fairness the Russian churches in the USA are constantly reprimending their parishioners for a lax attitude towards behavior and attire, and some Russian churches already look far different than what you find in Russia.
OK we are clear now, I was talking about Greek churches. Not American churches where 5th generation Greeks go, lol :P .Quote:
Originally Posted by JB
The Greek Orthodox Churches in America are filled with not only Greek Americans but fresh off the boat Greeks (who still live in Greece and are here on vacation or are recent immigrants). They all consider themselves to be just as much a Greek as anyone living in Greece.