NATO troops to march in Red Square

It will be the first time ever that NATO countries' military units, specifically those of the United States, the UK and France, have been invited to take part in the May 9th military parade in Moscow's Red Square.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/01/22/3771889.html

Communists say no to NATO troops

Last year's parade:
Part 1 (Army march) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlKJwXiE4pk
Part 2 (Army march) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou7bxcOW_eQ
Part 3 (Armored automobile technics) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QAJULO87Is
Part 4 (Air forces) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uQVuAu8Xvs

I don't see any reason why not. It's a common victory, after all, and we're celebrating the victory in WW2.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

I don't see any reason why not. It's a common victory, after all, and we're celebrating the victory in WW2.

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That's exactly my point of view too, but I was surprised how many people in Russia are strongly against that, even among my friends.

Frankly speaking, I don't really care, because it's the least of all my concerns at the moment.
But if there were only 2 options - yes or no - I'd choose "No" (yep, that's me who voted for it).

As I see it, a "Victory day Parade" was always dedicated to the victory in the "Great Patriotic War", namely a period from 1941 (when German troops invaded USSR) to 1945. Victory in the WW2 was a joint effort, but I do not remember any allied troops paticipating in GPW and fighting agains invaders with us on our territory. They were busy elsewhere (basically nobody cared until Nazis attacked them too).

Yes, it's good for image of Russia to invite NATO troops, but I do not support this decision wholeheartedly. Especially considering that it will offend many veterans. It would be nice to invite foreign WW2 veterans and their relatives instead.

Короче, не скажу, что меня сильно заботит этот момент, но новость совсем не обрадовала. Иностранные войска маршируют на площадях захваченных городов - у меня всегда была именно такая ассоциация. :oops:

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Victory in the WW2 was a joint effort, but I do not remember any allied troops paticipating in GPW and fighting agains invaders with us on our territory. They were busy elsewhere (basically nobody cared until Nazis attacked them too).

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Normandie-Niemen? Lend-Lease? How about these and other examples?

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Короче, не скажу, что меня сильно заботит этот момент, но новость совсем не обрадовала. Иностранные войска маршируют на площадях захваченных городов - у меня всегда была именно такая ассоциация. :oops:

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That's exactly what communists say. Of course it would be better to organize the common parade, say, at the meeting point on Elbe river, but I think Austria and Germany wouldn't be very happy to invite these troops and celebrate with them. So I think that Moscow is the right choise as a capital of a country, wich do the hardest job to defeat Hitler, but of course Britain, US and France also take part in the efforts to reach that victory and I think it's good that we will celebrate it together this time.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Normandie-Niemen? Lend-Lease?

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I understand your reasoning. But I told you that the victory day in Moscow seems to me to be about battles for liberating Soviet territory specifically, and you tell me be about Normandie. Since when Normandie belongs to the USSR?
Even if I'm wrong about deviding the war into little sections like this (and I'm sorry for that), I'm all for inviting WW2 veterans and/or people related to them. They fought, and they made a difference, and I respect them tremendously. But for me WW2 vets and modern NATO troops are two different things.

What about lend-lease, invite bankers or factory workers to march in RED square then.

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That's exactly what communists say.

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Really? :mrgreen: In fact, I think that some people in other countries may share this subconscious image too. I don't think Germans would be entirely happy about other countries troops marching in Berlin. I also think that reaction in many other states would be mixed too (Russians in Washington? I dunno).

Well, I'll think about it later. Maybe it's one of my "moods". :D

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

But I told you that the victory day in Moscow seems to me to be about battles for liberating Soviet territory specifically, and you tell me be about Normandie. Since when Normandie belongs to the USSR?

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Ты бы хоть по ссылке кликнула. :mosking: Я говорю про французскую эскадрилию Нормандия-Неман, которая воевала на Восточном фронте и помогала освобождать территорию СССР.

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Originally Posted by Basil77

Ты бы хоть по ссылке кликнула. :mosking: Я говорю про французскую эскадрилию Нормандия-Неман, которая воевала на Восточном фронте и помогала освобождать территорию СССР.

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Я кликнула, но не прочитала. Каюсь. :mosking: Yay for French! Все остальные аргументы остаются в силе.
Вообще не вижу причины приглашать НАТОВские войска, кроме (очередной безуспешной) попытки задобрить мировое сообщество.
А так.. ну пусть маршируют, что уж. Осмотрятся. :crazy:

It's certainly not my business since I am not Russian or a citizen of a NATO country. I no have issue with it, since it's just a march.

But personally I wouldn't want either American (or Russian or other) troops marching in my country for ANY reason...! If I was Russian I would not support this. Inviting them seems a bit disrespectful to those who spent their careers or military service worrying about war with the US/NATO. Plus, isn't the day about defending Russia? NATO never did that -- quite the opposite, in fact.

Personally I am sick of NATO and its' meddling around the globe. I think it is an organisation that is ruled by serious double standards, self-righteousness and plain aggressiveness. But it's very good at PR/marketing. I view NATO as a military club of "USA and friends" -- protecting US interests across the globe, at a substantial cost of human lives, as witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't "buy" it at all! (NATO tricked Sweden about something very important in the 1980s. It was discovered around 2000 or so. I can't get over that, it was shameless.) I don't trust NATO at all.

A few years ago I would have thought this march was a nice "peace-event" and good contrast to the Cold War, for NATO to be marching in Moscow. But now, I can only imagine that this is a PR stunt instigated by Russia -- designed to show the world that it is an open friendly country... It's sad that such an extreme measure is thought necessary.

Anyway, perhaps Russia should invite China as well, and the EU joint forces! (although they're not much to get excited about to date...) My view: Hopefully NATO will wither away as the US runs out of money and is forced to become a "normal" country. I don't think any of the other members care enough, or have enough money to keep NATO going in its present form without the US doing most of the work and picking up most of the bill.

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Короче, не скажу, что меня сильно заботит этот момент, но новость совсем не обрадовала. Иностранные войска маршируют на площадях захваченных городов - у меня всегда была именно такая ассоциация. :oops:

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That's exactly what communists say. Of course it would be better to organize the common parade, say, at the meeting point on Elbe river, but I think Austria and Germany wouldn't be very happy to invite these troops and celebrate with them. So I think that Moscow is the right choise as a capital of a country, wich do the hardest job to defeat Hitler, but of course Britain, US and France also take part in the efforts to reach that victory and I think it's good that we will celebrate it together this time.

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Actually, Germany is 100% apologetic about the war. It takes full responsibility for what it did. As far as I know, Germans are the biggest pacifists in Europe today. There are often Germans attending memorial events in Britain and I really feel for these German officials having to come along a be apologetic for something that happened long before they were born. But they are being good sports about it and they should have credit for going along with these never ending events and representing the "bad" losing side with dignity.

If someone wanted to host a memorial on the Elbe they'd no doubt host it and support it.

But large parts of Europe and all of America has no idea of the scale of the war in Russia. They have heard of Stalingrad -- if even that. They don't know the scale of the invasion of the USSR and all the suffering and death because it was downplayed during the cold war and has never returned to school books or public consciousness. English peoples total ignorance about this was pretty shocking.

If Russia did a big military parade with tanks and missiles in Moscow, then Western press would not write a sympathetic piece about the Soviet Union's sacrifices of peace in Europe... More likely it would be a "now and then" piece, comparing modern Russia with some era of the USSR that they had similar footage from. The header would be something like "Russia's Military on the Rise" -- or juicer in less serious papers...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5gGVJiV ... re=related
There was a video exactly about that but I can't find it right now. Only the slideshow left.

Если мы позволяем ИМ делать ЭТО в центре Москвы, почему бы не suck еще и у НАТЫ?
Бл*, они в центре Москвы разъезжают на своих развалюхах, а х*ишники вместо того, чтобы положить всех мордой в пол за стрельбу в центре города, и отодрать как козлов, кортежи им бл* обеспечивают.

Sorry I'm in Russian, just dunno how to swear hard in English :evil: :evil: :evil:

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Originally Posted by Eugene-p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5gGVJiVYjQ&feature=related
There was a video exactly about that but I can't find it right now. Only the slideshow left.

Если мы позволяем ИМ делать ЭТО в центре Москвы, почему бы не suck еще и у НАТЫ?
Бл*, они в центре Москвы разъезжают на своих развалюхах, а х*ишники вместо того, чтобы положить всех мордой в пол за стрельбу в центре города, и отодрать как козлов, кортежи им бл* обеспечивают.

Sorry I'm in Russian, just dunno how to swear hard in English :evil: :evil: :evil:

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Кажется, что они хорошо зарабатывают деньги.

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Кажется, что они хорошо зарабатывают деньги.

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We say "Хорошо зарабатывают" usually, though your variant is just fine, too, it sounds mocking a tiny bit.

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Да. Этого у них не отнять. Диаспора, блин.
Как и все маленькие народы, они очень сплочены и серьезно помогают друг другу в бизнесе, обустройстве и т.п.
Нам бы так. :no:

Why not is my reaction, too. Actually, no, I'm all for it. NATO or no NATO, we were allies before the Cold War and if this is gonna help people remember, then it's good.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

Actually, Germany is 100% apologetic about the war. It takes full responsibility for what it did. As far as I know, Germans are the biggest pacifists in Europe today. There are often Germans attending memorial events in Britain and I really feel for these German officials having to come along a be apologetic for something that happened long before they were born. But they are being good sports about it and they should have credit for going along with these never ending events and representing the "bad" losing side with dignity.

If someone wanted to host a memorial on the Elbe they'd no doubt host it and support it.

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Yes, I totally agree. They seem nice and sincere about the past and should be given credit for it. I actually read somewhere once that Germans are raised with a sort of guilt complex about the past, which makes me feel really sorry for them. I hope it's not true. I mean, one should remember the past as a lesson not to do the same mistakes again. But there's no need to rub it in.
And to be sure humanity has many hundreds and thousands of years before it to forget everything and do all sorts of horrible things again. Can you tell I'm a pessimist yet?

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Originally Posted by Johanna

But large parts of Europe and all of America has no idea of the scale of the war in Russia.[/b] They have heard of Stalingrad -- if even that. They don't know the scale of the invasion of the USSR and all the suffering and death because it was downplayed during the cold war and has never returned to school books or public consciousness. English peoples total ignorance about this was pretty shocking.

If Russia did a big military parade with tanks and missiles in Moscow, then Western press would not write a sympathetic piece about the Soviet Union's sacrifices of peace in Europe... More likely it would be a "now and then" piece, comparing modern Russia with some era of the USSR that they had similar footage from. The header would be something like "Russia's Military on the Rise" -- or juicer in less serious papers...

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I don't think folks in others countries should know our history (they might not know their own) but a little more knowledge, sympathy, and respect from the media would be appreciated. Just to dispell the Cold War myths. :pardon: At the very least, this event might help get rid of such statistics:

"The second statistic was just as troubling as the first. Among a number of demoralizing facts about the continuing crisis in our schools over what our children know (and don't know), one item stood out. It seems that an unacceptably large number of graduating high-school seniors think we fought with the Germans against the Russians in the Second World War."
(Geoffrey C. Ward, Ken Burns. "The War. An Intimate History. 1941--1945; italics by the authors)

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Do you think it's proper to let NATO troops march in Red Square?

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I think as it's often happens in "the biggest of lies" the answers would have been different had the question been something like: "Do you think the WWII allies should have a common parade on May the 9th?" :roll:

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Originally Posted by starrysky

I actually read somewhere once that Germans are raised with a sort of guilt complex about the past, which makes me feel really sorry for them. I hope it's not true. I mean, one should remember the past as a lesson not to do the same mistakes again. But there's no need to rub it in.

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I think the mere fact Nazism happened in Germany is a proof enough that could happen in any country. I mean for centuries Germany had been a great source of science and culture in the world. I remember my grandparents told me some people in the USSR at the time of WWII believed that all the badmouthing about Germans was a lie "because Germans is a nation of culture". Well, the way those were proved wrong ... OMG. :wall: Germans in general have high reputation in my eyes, but again what happened back then... :no: So, to sum it up, the Nazism could have happened (and probably might happen in the future) to any nation. I agree with starrysky here - it's a lesson to everyone. :instruct:

Medvedev honors "Belfast" crew

British sailors given medals for helping Russian during WW2.
http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/03/24/5613585.html

www.1tv.ru/news/n163436
Алан Биир: "На политику тогда никто не обращал внимания. И не важно, какие отношения были между советским правительством и британским, мы просто помогали нашим друзьям".

August 15, 1945 was the end of WW2. Seven days after the USSR declared war on Japan as part of the Yalta Conference.

"In the east, the Japanese Army eyed Russian Siberia along with its resources with envy. After several failed attempts at challenging the Russian forces in the region, plus the shifting favor for a southward expansion, Japan eventually signed a cease fire with Russia. The two countries remained at peace for all but the final few days of World War 2 when Russia broke the treaty and attacked Japan by surprise."

"V-J Day is recognized as an official holiday only in the U.S. state of Rhode Island. The holiday's official name is "Victory Day",[14] and it is observed on the second Monday of August."

Merchant Marine sent ships in convoy to Murmansk during WW2. They don't march in many parades though.

Just some trivia.

Не имею ничего против, если по Красной площади проедет студебеккер груженый туш0нкой. =) Солдат нафиг.

http://i014.radikal.ru/0802/8d/34766f14fbdd.jpg

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

I remember my grandparents told me some people in the USSR at the time of WWII believed that all the badmouthing about Germans was a lie "because Germans is a nation of culture".

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Lawyer: But what about that tattoo on your chest? Doesn't it say, "Die
Bart, Die?"
Bob: [conciliatorily] No, that's German for "The Bart, The."
[The spectators laugh, understanding]
Officer: No one who speaks German could be an evil man.

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:crazy:

О.БЫЧКОВА: Как вы думаете, как распределились голоса? Много будет за вашу позицию, Евгений Иванович?

Е.КОПЫШЕВ: Я не "угадайка", но я считаю, что все патриоты советской социалистической родины проголосуют в мою поддержку и в поддержку моей точки зрения.

Г.ГУДКОВ: С учетом специфической аудитории вашей радиостанции, более либеральной, наверное, все-таки наша позиция имеет большую поддержку. Просто не хочу навешивать клеймо – кто патриот, а кто не патриот - я считаю, что в России должно быть право на любую точку зрения, которая не разрушает страну.

О.БЫЧКОВА: У нас нет клейма, у нас есть цифры: 95,3% проголосовавших считают, что могут страны Антигитлеровской коалиции участвовать в Параде Победы на Красной площади. 4,7% с этим мнением категорически, судя по всему, не согласны. Это была программа «Клинч», спасибо большое.

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Originally Posted by sperk

95,3% проголосовавших считают, что могут страны Антигитлеровской коалиции участвовать в Параде Победы на Красной площади. 4,7% с этим мнением категорически, судя по всему, не согласны. Это была программа «Клинч», спасибо большое.

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Это ж "Эхо...", там русского днем с огнем не найдешь. :lol:

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Originally Posted by BappaBa

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Originally Posted by sperk

95,3% проголосовавших считают, что могут страны Антигитлеровской коалиции участвовать в Параде Победы на Красной площади. 4,7% с этим мнением категорически, судя по всему, не согласны. Это была программа «Клинч», спасибо большое.

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Это ж "Эхо...", там русского днем с огнем не найдешь. :lol:

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Они ж по честному предупредили: "С учетом специфической аудитории вашей радиостанции..." :"": ))))

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

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Originally Posted by BappaBa

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Originally Posted by sperk

95,3% проголосовавших считают, что могут страны Антигитлеровской коалиции участвовать в Параде Победы на Красной площади. 4,7% с этим мнением категорически, судя по всему, не согласны. Это была программа «Клинч», спасибо большое.

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Это ж "Эхо...", там русского днем с огнем не найдешь. :lol:

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Они ж по честному предупредили: "С учетом специфической аудитории вашей радиостанции..." :"": ))))

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Кажется, что Эхо либеральный. Какой СМИ представляет противную сторону?

What kind of craziness is this then???!!!

Russian World War II Veterans Must Pay To Sing War Songs
http://torrentfreak.com/world-war-ii...comment-649621
The comments are usually as interesting as the stories on that site.

Who could possibly hold the copyright of old Soviet soldiers' songs?
Sounds totally insane.... On what grounds are they claiming to "own the rights" to such songs?

Actually, I thought everything from the USSR was free of copyright?

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Originally Posted by sperk

Кажется, что Эхо либеральный. Какой СМИ представляет противную сторону?

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Это лишь одна из множества точек зрения, а не одна из двух. Еще есть, например, такая:
http://limonka.nbp-info.ru/
Или такая:
http://zavtra.ru/
Или такая:
http://www.revolucia.ru/
...

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Originally Posted by sperk

Кажется, что Эхо либеральный. Какой СМИ представляет противную сторону?

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РСН http://rusnovosti.ru

Разговорные радио:

http://s53.radikal.ru/i139/0912/ab/98b0cca2e55e.jpg

Спасибо. Что эти данные показывают? Количество слушателей?

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Originally Posted by sperk

Что эти данные показывают? Количество слушателей?

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Да, видимо, по Москве.

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Originally Posted by Johanna

What kind of craziness is this then???!!!

Who could possibly hold the copyright of old Soviet soldiers' songs?
Sounds totally insane.... On what grounds are they claiming to "own the rights" to such songs?

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http://rao***net.rao.ru/catalogue/work.aspx (remove ***)
Try to put in e.g. "боже царя храни"
Briefly - by the article 1244 of Civil Code, these guys control, by default, every artwork unless copyright owner explicitly revoked their right to control it. No owner - no revocation.

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Originally Posted by vox05

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Originally Posted by Johanna

What kind of craziness is this then???!!!

Who could possibly hold the copyright of old Soviet soldiers' songs?
Sounds totally insane.... On what grounds are they claiming to "own the rights" to such songs?

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http://rao***net.rao.ru/catalogue/work.aspx (remove ***)
Try to put in e.g. "боже царя храни"
Briefly - by the article 1244 of Civil Code, these guys control, by default, every artwork unless copyright owner explicitly revoked their right to control it. No owner - no revocation.

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Hah! The songs were invented by someone in the "Red army", right?
So they are

1) Dead by now, and therefore cannot release control of it....
2) Ideologically probably they were communists, therefore would probably be happy to release their control so that everyone can enjoy the song for free :roll:

Just shows the illogical nature of copyright in the digital age.... :madred:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j-oY...eature=related

...

Seraph, in one way I agree with you about the nature of the USA and NATO.
However, I don't think modern Russia is much ideologically different to the countries you mention. So there is no big contrast.

I guess Russia is a bit less "neo imperialist" and less prone to start wars than the USA is, for example. Basically it minds its own business. But the ideology of "Edinaya Rossia" seems to be the same as any non-descript European party on the middle of the political spectrum. Perhaps a bit more colourful, somewhat less 'democratic' and with some rather unique problems to deal with. Otherwise no clear ideology of the traditional kind. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that!!! )

I do not want a huge gap between Russia and the rest of Europe - with suspicion and restrictions of travel and exchange. I would like to see a close relationship. So for that reason I think the participation in that parade was good. It was a huge PR success. Many Europeans will feel positive about Russia's military (instead of paranoid) when they see they are willing to invite NATO to an event like this.

What country are you from btw?

The New York Times review:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Cr9Kdf7AU

Hmm... My view is:

On the one hand: The problem with them [US] is like they'd like to march on all squares in all countries, everywhere.... while simultaneously selling cars and burgers and buying cheap oil...

On the other hand: It's in Russia's interest to have a good relationship with Europe and the US, and I guess this helped... The symbolism of actually seeing its' soldiers in Moscow probably made the US feel more positive towards Russia.

Ultimately it's the Russian peoples decision... I wonder what the results would have been if a newspaper had done a poll about peoples' opinion on this.
:unknown:

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Originally Posted by Johanna

I wonder what the results would have been if a newspaper had done a poll about peoples' opinion on this.
:unknown:

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Originally Posted by Levada center

16-19 апреля 2010 Аналитический Центр Юрия Левады (Левада-Центр) провел опрос по репрезентативной выборке 1600 россиян в возрасте 18 лет и старше в 130 населенных пунктах 45 регионов страны. Распределение ответов на некоторые вопросы этого исследования приводится в процентах от общего числа опрошенных вместе с данными предыдущих опросов.* Статистическая погрешность данных этих исследований не превышает 3,4%.

КАК ВЫ ОТНОСИТЕСЬ К ИДЕЕ УЧАСТИЯ В ПАРАДЕ ПОБЕДЫ В МОСКВЕ ВОЙСК СТРАН АНТИГИТЛЕРОВСКОЙ КОАЛИЦИИ, НЫНЕ ВХОДЯЩИХ В НАТО?

апр.10

целиком положительно
18 %

скорее положительно
37 %

скорее отрицательно
20 %

резко отрицательно
8 %

затруднились ответить
18 %




Более положительно относятся к участию в параде войск США, Великобритании и Франции мужчины (59%), россияне в возрасте 25-40 лет (69%), с высшим образованием (60%), жители Москвы (70%) и других крупных городов.

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http://www.levada.ru/press/2010050401.html

Intresting cellphone video, foreign soldiers at Varvarka street after general rehearsal, 7th of May:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jlg7x1soHTA