Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by LXNDR

no, they should not be allowed to determine national policy, that's all

Well, my point of view that there are no good and bad peoples, all born with equal rights, nobody should be discriminated based on their ancestry, and there can be different views on democracy. I also think that collective punishment is unacceptable as well as prosecuting or depriving of voting rights an ethnic group to further a certain ideology to which they could be statistically in opposition.

Unfortunately this is not compatible with current western (and EU) values.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I know this sounds terrible but I wish the Baltic people would stop their victim mentality and look to the future. If they want to be Europeans in the EU, then behave like it! Leave the past where it belongs and move on! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Being bilingual with Russian will eventually turn out to be a huge advantage - if they don't take it someone else will.

This will never happen because the EU and the western human rights institutions approve such policy. The Baltic states constantly rate high at various democracy indexes, freedom ratings and so on, produced by Freedom House, Amnesty International and so on, despite having up to 40% of population stripped of their citizenship and having imposed harsh restrictions on them, strikingly resembling those the initial Nazi legislation against Jews. They not only cannot participate in elections, but also cannot occupy various positions such as lawers, firefighters or pharmacists.

It should be noted that the only way to get the citizenship for them is to pass the exams which not only include the language test, but also require them to explain the official interpretation of history, that is to call their parents "occupiers" and to count the Latvian Waffen SS as heroes. Not all people are ready to do so.

It also should be noted that all those people were not citizenship-less initially. In addition to the Soviet Union citizenship they had the citizenship of the respective republics which was guaranteed by the constitutions of the respective soviet republics. So loosing their citizenship was not a natural process of the USSR dissolution, but was organized deliberately by the legislative bodies which they themselves voted for.

as far as Russian speaking population is concerned, i think that unfortunately its large part represents mentality alien and at times hostile to the Western world, therefore for a society which associates itself with this world it poses considerable hindrance

I was recently in the Baltics and noticed no such mentality among the Russian speakers. In most cases (except the market in Riga) it was very hard to tell who was ethnically Russian vs Latvian. They are not very warm people, like Ukrainians for example - but both groups were about equally well or poorly behaved. There were crooks and rude people from either nationality, nice and friendly people from either. The Russians are somewhat the underdog though, the native Latvians are a little bit better off economically I think.

And no, I do not support any of the pro-immigration nonsense, but that is a completely different question. The current generation moved there. They are first generation immigrants who consciously moved to Europe and have been well taken care of. As far as the Russians in the Baltics and Ukraine knew, they were moving within an existing nation and had not done anything wrong. I am not saying that the Russians in the Baltics should not try to learn the local language. I absolutely think they should. But the Balts are practically being fascist about it - that is what I oppose.
And I support the EU's acceptance of minority languages - it works well, everyone wins, everyone is happy.

And if you do not like immigration from Non-european countries, then you can thank your lucky star that your country was in the USSR! Otherwise you would have as many non-Europeans as we have in the EU, looking different, speaking differently and with different culture. The Baltic states are essentially culturally and ethnically homogenous from an outside perspective, which is more than what can be said for any country in Northern Europe for example. In Belarus were only Belarussians and Russians, in the Ukraine I was not able to determine, but there certainly were no Africans or Arabs there at any rate. In Latvia too, were only white people, Europeans.

...they are a legacy of illegal occupation of the Soviet.

All this talk about "occupants" is just rhetorics for biased or ignorant. Most of these "occupants" lived there for generations without having any specific rights or privileges over "natives". They worked usual jobs, including unglamorous ones, such as janitors or nurses, they lived at the same types of flats, they were no richer or more powerful. Basically it was just natural working migration.

So now you are gleefully punishing their children and grandchildren for that, acting all wounded and self-righteous? Kind of petty mentality. Especially considering that some of Baltic states probably would not have been independent now without said annexations.

I find that rather hard to believe - based on the people of pre baltica that I know here say - where do you get your statistics from?

Most - if not all - of them are firmly "anti-russian" language - even if they know how to speak it.

Also - nearly all of them I know (maybe 5 or 6) say that there was NO "indigenous" Russian speakers until the "occupation".

So - do you DENY that Russia FORCIBLY OCCUPIED pre balitica?

I am just wondering about your own perception of "history" here.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Also - nearly all of them I know (maybe 5 or 6) say that there was NO "indigenous" Russian speakers until the "occupation".

Are you serious? native Russian speakers were 12 % of the population in the pre-war Latvia.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

So - do you DENY that Russia FORCIBLY OCCUPIED pre balitica?

I am just wondering about your own perception of "history" here.

Well, possibly many of the Baltic peoples were not happy with the unification with the USSR, but actually an invasion by Nazi Germany was anticipated and the governments had to choose between the two evils, as they saw it, and choose the USSR. It is known that Roosevelt during the war asked Stalin to repeat the unification referendums in those republics after the war, because the pre-war referendums were influenced by the immence threat by Germany. Stalin rejected this proposal, saying that the pre-war referendums legally valid even if they were made in a difficult international situation.

So it is possibly true that the majority of those people did not like the idea to join the USSR for ever very much, but it is also true that they made their choice between Germany and the USSR in the pre-war situation. They possibly thought that Germany will not be bold enough to attack the USSR and that they would be able to leave the USSR after the world war is over.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Yep - yet they are still there at the behest of the "host country" - and they do not arbitrarily - and with military force - IMPOSE a government on those countries such as the Russian's did.

Thank you but you are not able to speak for me or any other European. We can speak for ourselves. I am European but not Russian. I do not want American bases in Europe and I am certainly not scared of Russia, never have been, other than while watching American films where they are villified. My views are not at all uncommon. In the countries where these bases are located, in Western Europe, for the most part, local people do not like them. The Germans still feel uncomfortable about complaining due to their legacy, but soon enough the US will be asked to pack up and leave. This is what the Japanese tried in Okinawa, but the USA plain refused to leave, for two decades! It should be interesting times when we get to that situation in Europe. I'll spare you the embarrassment of posting pics of anti-USA graffiti that is common near the American bases.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

They do not take things from those counties - they guard the countries against the CONTINUED threat of the Russian's.

You can't be serious or have you been smoking something? What are you doing on this forum if you are so paranoid and suspicious about Russia? And PS - there should be no apostrophe in "Russians" in your sentence above.

Originally Posted by KLAPA

Nobody trusts you - and for good reason!

Funny, that's exactly how lots of people around the world feel about the USA, so how's that for the pot calling the kettle black? This is a forum where (mainly) Russians are helping people who want to learn the Russian language. How about showing some respect to the hosts here? Or wait a second - let's just force them to become pseudo Americans in a cheap USA clone, that's more the spirit of people like you, isn't it!? I am totally apalled at the tone of your post!

I just watched on Эхо Москвы a talk with Riga's mayor Нил Ушаков, as you can tell by his surname he's Russian, by his personal name one can tell how much Russian he is,

Ok - but half of Riga's population is Russian (at least) so it is not very surprising. The mayor is democratically elected. And hopefully he was not choosen purely on the grounds of his family background. No doubt he had to do plenty of campaigning in absolutely accentless Latvian to get elected to the post.

The thing that was shocking is that there is another town in Latvia called Daugavpils that I visited. It is the second largest city in Latvia, close to the border with Belarus. Pretty much everyone there is a native Russian speaker. You hear no other language on the streets. Yet absolutely everything in the town was written in Latvian. It was practically comical. For example, in the supermarket, in restaurants etc, signs outside shops, streetnames etc. It was like a parallell universe. Imagine a village in England where everyone was speaking French.

The market reflected the reality of the situation, everyone trying to sell something had put up handwritten signs in Russian.

And I compare with Finland where I spent lots of time. Everything is double signed. As a Swedish speaker I have no trouble at all. If I lived there permanently I'd try to learn Finnish but like Latvian it is a very hard language with very few speakers

Originally Posted by Crocodile

In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

To me it makes perfect sense, but of course, I am not Ukrainian!

I still don't think that the logic of the anti-Russian language commentators adds up here. According to your way of viewing thing, French should not be an equal language in Canada. The French Canadians should adapt to the majority language. France for the record has some gruesome acts on its conscience from its' days as a colonial power in Africa and East Asia.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I still don't think that the logic of the anti-Russian language commentators adds up here. According to your way of viewing thing, French should not be an equal language in Canada. The French Canadians should adapt to the majority language. France for the record has some gruesome acts on its conscience from its' days as a colonial power in Africa and East Asia.

their bilingualism is a historical fact, history is made by the people and if people decide there should only be one official language in Ukraine, so will it be, and they already did decide once, i'm not aware of a law which summons to re-evaluate this decision every some years

again, there're legal procedures which allow such re-evaluation, their legality isn't conditioned by anyone's personal view on the subject, and if legally the re-evaluation succeeds i will respect that, i will only note that in modern day Ukraine legality of many decisions, processes and political initiatives is questionable

bilingualism in Ukraine is by far not a topical issue, it's only topical for the Party Of Regions on the eve of elections, a bone for their disillusioned voters

if French committed those crimes against the people of Canada (not talking about indigenous population), maybe their language doesn't deserve to have the official status IN Canada

Originally Posted by LXNDR

bilingualism in Ukraine is by far not a topical issue, it's only topical for the Party Of Regions on the eve of elections, a bone for their disillusioned voters

You contradict yourself. The fact that this language issue resurfaces regularly and is important enough to the voters to be a proverbial carrot during elections proves that it is a "topical issue". After all you spent quite a lot of time arguing about it here, so it does matter.

I believe any arguments about "preserving" or "defending" Ukrainian language against Russian (as the main reason against Russian as a second official language) have no real weight. Those who speak Ukrainian will continue doing so either way, and with no forceful Ukrainisation Russian speakers won't feel the need to "defend" their right to speak Russian, and maybe will use Ukrainian more often. For now language wars cause tension, they certainly do not consolidate the nation and serve no real purpose except petty vengeance.

their bilingualism is a historical fact, history is made by the people

Erm... I lost you here. So their bilingualism is a historical fact, and bilingualism in Ukraine is not, even if it exists and formed historically over time? It looks like you are bending facts and arguments to fit your purpose.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

For now language wars cause tension

please be honest, there's no such animal as language wars in the daily routine of Ukraine, they only reappear every elections round and are confined by the walls of the Parliament and maybe some web forums

when people aren't comfortable with something they protest, nothing prevents Russian speaking population of Ukraine from starting grassroots campaign for Russian language just like they did in Latvia, the constitution and legislation which guarantee the right of the people to initiate a referendum is there

i affirmed that quite a few times and i'll do it one last time, i'm not against the official status of Russian as long as it's decided upon by the lawful means, again Latvia is a perfect example, on the other hand i have my personal opinion and i don't think anyone needs to or should try to dissuade me from it

gRomoZeka please respond to this lowly request of mine

Originally Posted by LXNDR

now ARE YOU treated as a second grade citizen because you speak Russian? please describe the incidents illustrating that statement

Originally Posted by LXNDR

gRomoZeka please respond to this lowly request of mine

Originally Posted by LXNDR

now ARE YOU treated as a second grade citizen because you speak Russian? please describe the incidents illustrating that statement

I believe I'm treated as a second grade citizen every time I have no choice about what language to use, filling forms (almost all of them are Ukrainian only) or going to movies (no choice whatsoever, to watch a movie dubbed to Russian I have to go to Russia, it's nonsense, considering at least 15 millions of native Russian speakers in Ukraine). When Russian-speaking schools are turned into Ukrainian forcefully in purely Russian-speaking regions against wishes of teachers, parents and kids - usually without any way to oppose this decision since Russian officially has no more rights in situations like this than any other foreign language (and it concerns me personally because it affects my family, particularly two different schools attended by my niece and cousin).

When a person I talked to two days ago says something like: "I hope Russians will leave Crimea soon, and real Ukrainians will move in", implying that people who leave there are not "real" to this state or have no right to be there despite the fact that they have been living there for generations and real Ukrainians did not. It was just a personal point of view, but the real problem is that this ridiculous differentiation is widespread and is made purely on language basis, since "haters" have a wonderful and unbeatable argument: "We live in Ukraine, the official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian, ergo Russian-speaking citizens have no right to complain, they are essentially outlaws".

I'm for bilingualism with both languages equally respected and supported by the state, with people always having a choice between two languages anywhere, in any setting. Right now the state looks another way in regards to Russian (i.e. "allows" people to use it when it can't be avoided or forbidden or controlled anyway), and insists it does us a great favor by doing so. I don't need this kind of unreliable favors, I want this right being supported officially and irrefutably by law. Though I doubt it ever happens.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

if French committed those crimes against the people of Canada (not talking about indigenous population), maybe their language doesn't deserve to have the official status IN Canada

Sorry, what crimes did Russians commit in Ukraine? Maybe when Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire they treated it like subordinate, I don't know. But in the 20th century the Soviet Union actually reunited Ukrainian people - Eastern Galicia and Volhynia with its mostly Ukrainian population were taken from Poland and given to Ukraine (1939). Later Soviets gave Ukraine luxurious gift - the Crimea, a peninsula on the northern coast of the Black Sea and a part of Russia back then (1954). It is clear that Russians helped Ukraine to expand its territory and escape Polish and German (who were not so keen on preserving Ukrainian culture, religion and language) dominance. Thanks to these developments Ukraine emerged eventually as an independent state with one of the biggest areas in Europe. Russians lived in its eastern regions for centuries, and the Crimea was given to Ukraine with its mostly Russian population. How could it be that Russians in Ukraine do not deserve official recognition of their mother tongue after all that?

Originally Posted by xdns

Sorry, what crimes did Russians commit in Ukraine? Maybe when Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire they treated it like subordinate, I don't know. But in the 20th century the Soviet Union actually reunited Ukrainian people - Eastern Galicia and Volhynia with its mostly Ukrainian population were taken from Poland and given to Ukraine (1939). Later Soviets gave Ukraine luxurious gift - the Crimea, a peninsula on the northern coast of the Black Sea and a part of Russia back then (1954). It is clear that Russians helped Ukraine to expand its territory and escape Polish and German (who were not so keen on preserving Ukrainian culture, religion and language) dominance. Thanks to these developments Ukraine emerged eventually as an independent state with one of the biggest areas in Europe. Russians lived in its eastern regions for centuries, and the Crimea was given to Ukraine with its mostly Russian population. How could it be that Russians in Ukraine do not deserve official recognition of their mother tongue after all that?

none if you discount the operations against population in Western Ukraine, they did commit them in the Baltic states though
either way i was answering a statement about Canada in particular

Originally Posted by LXNDR

none if you discount the operations against population in Western Ukraine, they did commit them in the Baltic states though
either way i was answering a statement about Canada in particular

Based on this logic the decendants of Western Ukrainians should be stripped of all rights because their ancestors helped the Nazis to clear their region from Jews and Poles. Why the alleged crimes against Western Ukarinians and the Balts are more important than the crimes against Jews, Poles and Russians? I also note that there is nothing the history has recorded about anything happening to Western Ukrainians and Balts comparable to what they did to Jews and Poles in Western Ukraine, what the Latvian SS did to Belorussians in Belorussia and the locals to the Jews in the Baltics.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

either way i was answering a statement about Canada in particular

You see, if you want to draw the exact parallel, you should say that French Canadians should ban English from being a second official language.
The thing is that French Canadians arrived earlier than English settlers and, subsequently, French settlements should probably be considered Canadian and that way English actually conquered/occupied Canada. So, at the time of Confederation (=i.e. when Canada became a country) there were actually only two provinces which were interested: Quebec (mostly French speaking) and Ontario (mostly English speaking). The financial capital of Quebec was Montreal, but that city had the biggest English-speaking population in Quebec (think Riga). The official bilingualism united people in Canada, made it one country, so to speak. Allowed people to get past the wars of their ancestors.

The similar situation happened in some of the other countries with the official bilingualism. Another good example - South Africa. The Afrikaans and English were (and still are) the two official languages. That helped to unite the nation too.

I just fail to see why to re-invent the wheel and take the risk of unnecessary tension rather than using a peaceful solution that worked in the past and still works perfectly nowdays..

The other countries which used the 'boiling pot' language strategy (like the US and Israel) faced a totally different set of issues and were pressed to work out their aggressive language policies. But, I don't think that applies to Ukraine anyways.

PS.

Originally Posted by Ф.Купер

- Ну и дьявольщина! Ничего хорошего это не предвещает, - сказал Следопыт [...],
Только индейцу, развращенному хитрыми канадскими священниками, могло
прийти в голову вырезать это на своей трубке.
Ручаюсь, что негодяй молится на свой талисман всякий раз, как собирается обмануть невинную жертву или замышляет какую-нибудь чудовищную пакость. Похоже, что трубку только что обронили. Верно, Чингачгук?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

When Russian-speaking schools are turned into Ukrainian forcefully in purely Russian-speaking regions against wishes of teachers, parents and kids - usually without any way to oppose this decision since Russian officially has no more rights in situations like this than any other foreign language (and it concerns me personally because it affects my family, particularly two different schools attended by my niece and cousin).

If you lived in the European Union and this happened, you could complain all the way to the European Court in Brussels. Media would be writing stories about it, everybody would be on the side of your family. This kind of thing is absolutely unthinkable in Western Europe at least. A minority population could never be discriminated against in this way. Imagine if they did that in a school in the Catalunya, in Wales, in the Swedish speaking parts of Finland..... It would simply never happen.

I know they do it in the Baltic states, but it is a matter of time before public opinion catches on to it and they have to quit it. The situation with Russians in the Baltics is covered quite a bit in the Scandinavian press and nobody defends the behaviour of the Balts. I know the "big" world does not care what Scandinavia thinks, but as soon as it gets picked up in the German press (which is feasible) or a Baltic Russian sues the state in Brussels, they will get forced to change...

I don't know what would make things change in Ukraine, but I thought Yanukovich was supposedly more oriented towards Russia - doesn't this have a bearing on the language question too?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

Originally Posted by Hanna

But the Balts are practically being fascist about it - that is what I oppose.

they restore historical justice, they have every right to since they have been violated

You can't be serious about this! This is very primitive justice!

All countries in Europe have done terrible things to their neighbours at one time or another. If this sort of "an-eye-for-an-eye" retribution onto the next generation (sounds like something from the Old Testament..) was acceptable, then we might as well nuke each other right away, or start a civil war across the continent!

Recent history has shown that forgiving, forgetting and working together with your neighbouring countries is the way to retain peace and prosper.

Gosh, even in South Africa they can manage to leave the past behind for goodness sake!

It seems to me that people here are blackpainting Russians and the USSR far more than what can be justified, and that you are saying there is some kind of "special dispensation" to discriminate against Russians and the Russian language because of these highly debatable accusations against the USSR, from many, many decades ago.

Most people who have any memory of the Stalin era when all this *might* have taken place, depending on your viewpoint... are very old or dead! This attitude to me is really creepy - it makes me draw parallels with historical events.

Originally Posted by Anixx

On Russians in the Baltics:
They not only cannot participate in elections, but also cannot occupy various positions such as lawers, firefighters or pharmacists.

It should be noted that the only way to get the citizenship for them is to pass the exams which not only include the language test, but also require them to explain the official interpretation of history, that is to call their parents "occupiers" and to count the Latvian Waffen SS as heroes. Not all people are ready to do so.

All this sounds practically like fascism to me. It sounds really primitive. Brussels needs to look at this and punish Estonia and Latvia if they don't quit this. It's outrageous. Citizenship should have nothing to do with what opinions you hold about certain historical events, or whether you speak the minority or majority languge. And at 40% the Russians are hardly a small minority in Latvia. Without them, the country would no doubt stop functioning.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I thought Yanukovich was supposedly more oriented towards Russia - doesn't this have a bearing on the language question too?

Well, I can see where LXNR is coming from on that matter. AFAIR, Yanukovich addressed Crimean audience in Russian before him being elected the President several years ago. The language issue is still there. Implying, Yanukovich cares about the people and the state as little as the previous President. So, every time he wants to appeal to the Russian-speaking part of the country, he would employ the 'language issue', but otherwise he's just as ignorant. Based on that, LXNR thinks the 'language issue' is not real. Something like that.