Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

I just can't agree with a principle that says:

"it's wrong to discriminate linguistic minorities*"
*Except if the minority happen to be Russians, then it's ok, because it's ok to discriminate against them since we did not like the USSR.

That seems to be what some of you are saying!

Or are you saying that it is ok in general, to discriminate against linguistic minorities?
I.e.

Forget the Welsh, the Frisians, the Basque, the German speakers in Italy, the Swedish speakers in Finland etc... and force them to speak the majority language using any means possible!

Because that seems to be what you are proposing in the case of the Baltic Russians, in particular.

I don't think even the USSR - which you say you dislike - would have supported such a policy, at least not post Stalin.

So as for the Baltics: Now they are in the European UNION instead, where they have to learn English instead of Russian... Many cannot get a job and emigrate, many live in poverty and they had a currency crisis and big unemployment. Their countries are used as a location for cheap manufacturing within the borders of the EU.

It's nice that they are happy with the current situation, I hope things will improve fast and I am glad to have them in the EU, but if you look at it objectively there are some big parallells between then and now.. The Baltic states were definitely not rolling in any wealth prior to the War and Soviet annexation - it was a similar situation to Finland. With this I am not saying I approve of the Soviet annexation, I don't. But there are two sides to this and I always disliked a one sided super-biaised view of things.

In the case of Finland - they had an absolute crap time of it until about 1980s. I wouldn't say it was much better than the Baltics. Whole villages and large parts of society were forced to emigrate to support themselves, this never happened in the Baltics, until recently. The situation in Finland had nothing to do with the USSR, they were just poor, with no major natural resources etc in a neglected and unglamorous part of Europe. Luckily things have improved a lot during the last 25 years.

I know this sounds terrible but I wish the Baltic people would stop their victim mentality and look to the future. If they want to be Europeans in the EU, then behave like it! Leave the past where it belongs and move on! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Being bilingual with Russian will eventually turn out to be a huge advantage - if they don't take it someone else will.

Originally Posted by Hanna

It's nice that they are happy with the current situation, I hope things will improve fast and I am glad to have them in the EU, but if you look at it objectively there are some big parallells between then and now.. The Baltic states were definitely not rolling in any wealth prior to the War and Soviet annexation - it was a similar situation to Finland. With this I am not saying I approve of the Soviet annexation, I don't. But there are two sides to this and I always disliked a one sided super-biaised view of things.

In the case of Finland - they had an absolute crap time of it until about 1980s. I wouldn't say it was much better than the Baltics. Whole villages and large parts of society were forced to emigrate to support themselves, this never happened in the Baltics. The situation in Finland had nothing to do with the USSR, they were just poor, with no major natural resources etc in a neglected and unglamorous part of Europe. Luckily things have improved a lot during the last 25 years.

you cannot know how it would pan out for them economically and progress wise in general had they not been annexed by the USSR, and your example of Finland only goes to show that they could have been better off staying independent, plus their national pride wouldn't have been hurt which is an important thing to consider evaluating relative happiness

Originally Posted by Hanna

Leave the past where it belongs and move on! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Being bilingual with Russian will eventually turn out to be a huge advantage - if they don't take it someone else will.

they can't leave the past behind them while former occupants and their descendants stir up language controversy looking up to their metropole which is Russia
why not just learn the local language?

Let me be blatant on this one, the idea of multi-culti is bollocks, we're witnessing what this policy has brought about in Western European countries with large Muslim immigrant population. Maybe you like the tendencies, i don't
It doesn't mean that ethnic minorities should be oppressed, but at the same time they should not dictate national policy or try to sway it in their favor, that's treacherous, they MUST integrate if they like to be integral part of society, that in particular means knowing local language
In Latvia one of the goals of the referendum was making Russian another language used in the sessions of the Seim. Why on earth is this important if the members of the parliament have to know the official language in the first place?

as far as Russian speaking population is concerned, i think that unfortunately its large part represents mentality alien and at times hostile to the Western world, therefore for a society which associates itself with this world it poses considerable hindrance.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

as far as Russian speaking population is concerned, i think that unfortunately its large part represents mentality alien and at times hostile to the Western world, therefore for a society which associates itself with this world it poses considerable hindrance.

This resembles to me the infamous "totalitarian genes" theory that alleged that Russians, Serbs, Belorussians had genes favoring totalitarianism, so to protect democracy those people should be prosecuted and/or eliminated.

Originally Posted by Anixx

This resembles to me the infamous "totalitarian genes" theory that alleged that Russians, Serbs, Belorussians had genes favoring totalitarianism, so to protect democracy those people should be prosecuted and/or eliminated.

no, they should not be allowed to determine national policy, that's all
not sure what Belorussians and Serbs have to do with the content of any of my posts, no need to multiply entities

Originally Posted by Anixx

I wonder how is it to be legally considered "occupier" in a country where you was born.

please do not wrench my words, why do you do this?

i said

Originally Posted by LXNDR

occupiers and their descendants

ok? see the distinction?

discussion with such attitude as you demonstrate is usually not productive

Originally Posted by LXNDR

no, they should not be allowed to determine national policy, that's all

Well, my point of view that there are no good and bad peoples, all born with equal rights, nobody should be discriminated based on their ancestry, and there can be different views on democracy. I also think that collective punishment is unacceptable as well as prosecuting or depriving of voting rights an ethnic group to further a certain ideology to which they could be statistically in opposition.

Unfortunately this is not compatible with current western (and EU) values.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I know this sounds terrible but I wish the Baltic people would stop their victim mentality and look to the future. If they want to be Europeans in the EU, then behave like it! Leave the past where it belongs and move on! What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Being bilingual with Russian will eventually turn out to be a huge advantage - if they don't take it someone else will.

This will never happen because the EU and the western human rights institutions approve such policy. The Baltic states constantly rate high at various democracy indexes, freedom ratings and so on, produced by Freedom House, Amnesty International and so on, despite having up to 40% of population stripped of their citizenship and having imposed harsh restrictions on them, strikingly resembling those the initial Nazi legislation against Jews. They not only cannot participate in elections, but also cannot occupy various positions such as lawers, firefighters or pharmacists.

It should be noted that the only way to get the citizenship for them is to pass the exams which not only include the language test, but also require them to explain the official interpretation of history, that is to call their parents "occupiers" and to count the Latvian Waffen SS as heroes. Not all people are ready to do so.

It also should be noted that all those people were not citizenship-less initially. In addition to the Soviet Union citizenship they had the citizenship of the respective republics which was guaranteed by the constitutions of the respective soviet republics. So loosing their citizenship was not a natural process of the USSR dissolution, but was organized deliberately by the legislative bodies which they themselves voted for.