Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians? Can't believe that for one moment. Not that I'm an apologist, but that's far too much.
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Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians? Can't believe that for one moment. Not that I'm an apologist, but that's far too much.
I didn't say Stalin killed more Russians than Hitler, I said he was more effective at it.
I wonder where you guys think all this brainwashing takes place. In school so much attention was focused on Hitler's crimes that those of Stalin barely got a footnote. Since the US was allied with Stalin, no one was eager to say he was as bad as Hitler. And those on the political Left in Western Europe and the US bent over backward to make excuses for that regime. Every American kid knows what Hitler was and what he did, I'd be embarrassed to find out how many even know who Stalin was.
According to some of the "ideas" floated in this forum, the Jews control the Western media and are brainwashing Americans against Stalin (for what purpose?), but wait, Bolshevism itself was a Jewish attack against Christians! So I guess the Jews didn't get their act together on this one....
It boggles my mind why any Russian would want to defend Stalin. Forced collectivization, politically induced famine, resettlement of ethnicities, the purges, the gulag, the decapitation of the Red Army before WWII, his refusal to believe that Hitler would attack or prepare adequately for it. ...And even after the bravery and sacrifice of the Russian army and people bailed him out, how did he repay returning Soviet soldiers?? Russia won WWII in spite of Stalin, not because of him. We all know what even Lenin thought of him.
All this is well-documented for anyone who cares to know. I guess the books of Conquest, Radzinsky, Getty, etc. are all just brain-washing Jewish propaganda??
".....В ходе исследований этим коллективом, состоящим из представителей Госкомстата СССР, Академии наук СССР, Министерства обороны. Главного архивного управления при Совете Министров СССР, Советского комитета ветеранов войны. Союза обществ Красного Креста и Красного Полумесяца, были уточнены категории людских потерь, произведена оценка полноты данных о населении страны в 30–40–е годы, внесены потери в расчеты количества населения на начало и на конец Великой Отечественной войны, выверены по архивным источникам имевшиеся оценки отдельных потерь.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper May
В результате проделанной работы людские потери Советского Союза во время Великой Отечественной войны, высчитанные методом демографического баланса, были оценены в 27 млн. человек, в том числе потери военнослужащих Вооруженных Сил — 8 700 тыс. человек. "
Look here
After this all BS about Holocost looks like an egregious lie. And they make money on it.
Интересно, здесь есть кто-нибудь из русских (украинцев, белорусов, казахов, азербайджанцев...) у кого дед на на войне не погиб? Мои - оба. Один под Москвой, другой - под Курском.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ
Since my messages are being deleted in this thread without leaving a trace, I am not going to participate in this discussion. I would still suggest that the wise guys like begemot read books that derive their data from verifiable sources rather than baloney falsifications.
What does this mean? Who is 'they' and what is the 'BS'?Quote:
After this all BS about Holocost looks like an egregious lie. And they make money on it.
I can take a lot, but when people start denying the holocaust, I'm off. I'm no Jew, but I know Jews who've lost their (grand)parents in Auschwitz, and you're not going to tell me that all of them are lying (and that it's all some big world-wide Jewish conspiracy). Incidentally, that's another thing that pisses me off, conspirationalists.
Have a good discussion.
What would recommend, BM, the Краткий Курс?Quote:
suggest that the wise guys like begemot read books that derive their data from verifiable sources rather than baloney falsifications.
I saw and enjoyed your rant before it was deleted. If you take the time to abuse me again, could you please do it in Russian? I'm trying to learn.
That would be a huge step forward for you. Anything is a step forward compared to your rectal literature.Quote:
Originally Posted by begemot
OK, I just returned to this forum just to find anti-Semitism! WTF is wrong here?! Where are the mods to close these kind of threads down and BAN the stupid f*cks who post such BS? Racism sucks! Racism has no place at masterrussian IMO. I am sorry to see the mods don't seem to agree.
There are no mods as of now besides MasterAdmin, who ultimately gets to decide what is proper content for his site anyway. However, please do note that the forum is undergoing a maintenance and most posts made during this maintenance will be deleted. After the maintenance is done, I think it's safe to say that all the recent flamewars that have been popping up will be regulated a bit more. What is with all the flamewars going on lately, anyway?
Hey, without Russian Jews, we wouldn't have Fiddler On the Roof:P
My grandma lost 2 brothers in that war. Her third brother had dead some years after the war becouse of his wounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander
BS mean bullsh#t. "They" means "jews".Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Really? Which Jews? Jerry Seinfeld, Woody Allen and the Weinsteins? Einstein, perhaps, or Disraeli? Or me? I don't think I've ever made any money whatsoever out of the Holocaust. Lost two family members though. Perhaps the cheque's in the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ
I am becoming increasingly fed up of scattergun anti-Semitism on this forum. It's even more galling when it comes from someone who is here regularly: I can dismiss the wandering nuts from my mind much more swiftly than I can you.
joysof, I do not think there is real anti-Semitism here. Nobody is denying the Holocaust. What is being told is that the Holocaust, while significant in itself, is smaller in the scale than the "asystemic extermination" the Nazis were practicing in the USSR. What is being told also is that the Jews have been able to use the fact (the fact, which is not disputed!) of Holocaust very favourably politically, unlike the Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians/etc, and there is a conflict between these two facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
I hope you're right. Taken together, however, I find JJ's posts here anti-Semitic in sentiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
You didn't get right what i said. I just want to say that becouse of the Holocaust "advertising" everybody forget 27 mln (see what Jasper wrote:"Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians?") russians, ukrainians, belorussians, tatars, jews, etc. from the USSR. And after all u call me as "anti-Semit". Moreover I don't feel hatred against germans and jews in spite of the fact that Adolf Shekelgruber (Hitler) killed 3 of my relatives and he was a jew.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
I think, then, that you expressed it badly. Have read it four time and still find it offensive (and, more importantly, just plain wrong).Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ
Not true. Urban myth. Had some - not much - Jewish ancestry.Quote:
Moreover I don't feel hatred against germans and jews in spite of the fact that Adolf Shekelgruber (Hitler) killed 3 of my relatives and he was a jew.
This is the bit I'd like you to explain. Which ''advertising'' and by whom?Quote:
I just want to say that becouse of the Holocaust "advertising" everybody forget 27 mln (see what Jasper wrote:"Whoever said Hitler killed 30 million Russians?") russians, ukrainians, belorussians, tatars, jews, etc. from the USSR.
Q: Was Hitler part Jewish?
A: (short answer) Maybe, and what difference does it make?
If my family gets killed by our neighbor in a fit of rage over surveyers boundries, and your family gets killed by a serial killer who offed 5 other families, we have both suffered essentially the same loss. Your pain does not diminish mine or vice versa.
It is not the Jewish people's fault the losses in the Soviet Union are not as publicized as the Holocaust. If you want to blame someone blame the Soviet leadership that notoriously fudged figures. Or the Allies who didn't take heed of Soviet suffering or assign the USSR the same level of heroism they did more Western nations. Anyway, Jewish people died right along side ethnic Russians, Bielorussians, Tatars, и.т.д. in the USSR.
I don't see how it is possible to blame Holocaust historians and activists for wanting the world to know about what happened in the concentration camps during WWII; after all, many of you here are saying that you wish your own suffering was as notorious. So instead of getting into a who-suffered-more contest, perhaps it would be better to simply educate people about the USSR's travails? One suffering does not cancel out or diminish the other; it is possible to feel sympathy and horror at more than one event. Historians often (although not often enough, honestly) point out that the activities Nanking rival the worsts atrocities of the Nazis, but they do not say "therefore we should ignore the concentration camps in Europe and focus only on Nanking," they say "we should study Nanking in addition to the events in Europe."
The USSR always insisted on 20 million total losses. While less than the actual 27, it is still huge. And that figure was continually circulated in Soviet publications since fifties. So maybe we should blame the "free democratic" press of the USSR’s Cold War enemies, who did everything to diminish the role played by the USSR in WWII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Линдзи
Head on.Quote:
Or the Allies who didn't take heed of Soviet suffering
Because they are distorting the truth. Those same camps killed a lot more Russians/Ukrainians/Byelorussians than Jews, yet those activists almost never mention the fact, which leads many to believe that the camps was created solely for the Jews and nobody but the Jews.Quote:
I don't see how it is possible to blame Holocaust historians and activists for wanting the world to know about what happened in the concentration camps during WWII;
Explain how. Like buy a couple of pages in the Life magazine? The only way the USA (let's just take one country) may be educated about that is by making the topic mandatory in the school program, at educational channels, and so on. That needs a go by the state officials, not just wishful thinking at some internet forum unheard of in the USA.Quote:
So instead of getting into a who-suffered-more contest, perhaps it would be better to simply educate people about the USSR's travails?
You may think what you think but there are no arguments in it. This is a such dialog like "you're stupid idiot - no, you're stupid idiot".Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.Quote:
Not true. Urban myth. Had some - not much - Jewish ancestry.
Ok, try to do this:Quote:
This is the bit I'd like you to explain. Which ''advertising'' and by whom?
go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising? Don't forget that USSR lost 27 million people and it mentions almost 30 times rarely than Holocaust. The Holocaust victims mention more often than all victims that awful war.
I don't know to whom it is profitable but the facts....
type in "world war two victims" and you get 2,950,000 results
type in "soviet world war two victims" and you get 600,000 results
type in "i smell like fish" and you get 1,170,000 results
I don't disagree that the Holocaust gets a lot of press, but I don't know anyone who doesn't realize that others perished right along side the Jews in the camps. And while I agree that Soviet suffering may well be underreported, I'm not sure an internet search is the best way of making your point, unless your point is that hott naked asian grrrls are sexxxy in pr0n. Search words can be manipulated to show any results.
It was hard to construct any sort of 'argument' when all you had done to that point was toss in a few gnomic hints about 'Jews' and 'Holocaust BS'. Thank you for the explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ
This is tantamount to saying that your local hospital ‘advertises’ coronary heart disease ('Look at all those leaflets...'). The Holocaust happened - you’re with me on this one, right? - and is worth writing about, as, needless to say, is what happened in the Soviet Union. Fashions come and go in the study of history (who would have thought thirty years ago, for example, that people would be so obsessed de nos jours with the minutiae of their ancestors’ daily lives?); to put this down to of any sort of concerted ‘Jewish effort’ is ridiculous and I would hope that you’re not trying to do so.Quote:
Ok, try to do this:
go to the real democratic resource www.yahoo.com
type "Holocaust victims" and you'll get 623,000 results
then type "WWII victims" and you'll get 264,000 results
then type "USSR victims in WWII" and you'll get only 23,800 results.
So, isn't it a Holocaust advertising?
Besides, I've read several very good books about Soviet casualties in WWII. Not sure the notion that there's a deficiency in this department holds water.
Thames Television? Esteemed Purveyor of trash TV to the masses? There are better sources, no?Quote:
I saw the movie about it made by BBC or Themes television. It was a year or a couple of years ago.
Well, I was planning to write something long about this - but then I realized I can mostly just say "Go Lindzi!".
I see the logic of states paying money to victims of their own earlier misdoings - like the USA giving compensation to the Native Americans - but if individuals were to carry the guilt of their forefathers/foremothers, what should f.ex. a German/Jew or any kind of Metis do? Should we sue ourselves?
There's a few things, though (oh please, please, please don't get me wrong, but I feel it's gotta be said...): It is kind of annoying (not to say unfair) that everytime someone critises a certain nationalist, militarist state known as Israel... It is labeled "anti-semittism".
For one thing, this is proposterous because Arabs are semittes too.
And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.
Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)? It's true, isn't it? Given, it is also true that fundamentalist Protestants might have even more responsibility for the military/economical support to Israel - but when people point this out, they are never called anti-christian.
I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.
Regarding the WWII thing, it is true that the massacres of gypsies, soviet-citizens and other groups are not dealt with enough when we learn about the Holocaust. I do, however, not think that this is a part of any Global Jewish Conspiracy - it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...
I did of course mean: Soviet-citizens, GYPSIES and homosexuals...Quote:
it might have more to do with the fact that soviet-citizens, slavs and homosexuals weren't all that popular in Western Europe and the USA even after the WWII...
Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel? I brought up anti-Semitism in response to comments about 'Holocaust BS'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihkkal
Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?Quote:
And the other thing is that you can't use the fact that history has treated your ancestors bad, to keep the world from commenting on the current skelettons in your closet. PLEASE NOTE: "You" and "your" does not refer to the Jewish nation/religious group, but to the state of Israel.
Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?Quote:
Oh yes, and there's a third thing: Why is it racist/anti-semittic when people point out that there's a powerful Jewish pro-israel lobby in the USA, that has much of the blame for the USA's Israel-support (and thus for the entire Mideast-mess)?
Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?Quote:
I don't encourage "bashing" of anyone, but I don't think any state or lobby should be untouchable because of their ancestors' tragic past.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
As the old joke goes, товарисчи, наши враги говорят, что я читаю свои речи по пластинке...по пластинке...по пластинке...Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
joysof wrote
bad manners wroteQuote:
Where in this thread did anybody mention Israel?
I think this was a reference to Israel. I can't really see what else it could be refering to - as far as I know, the Jewish republic of Yevrenia has never led racist/segregationalist policies, and as far as I know there aren't any other sovereign/autonomous Jewish lands than these two.Quote:
And always start that stink about "anti-Semitism" when their dirty deeds get to be scrutinized? While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades?
Even so: This thread is about anti-semitism, and that's what people get accused of every time they criticize Israel and/or the Jewish neocons in the USA.
I agree that it would be anti-semittic if one said Israel and the Jewish neocons are behaving badly because they are Jewish - however, most critics are simply saying that they're behaving badly. So I can, in a way, agree with some of what bad manners is saying here.
However, I don't think that one shouldn't lump all Jews into one "bag" and give them the blame for everything Israel does - and I think bad manners is in danger of doing just that, when he/she makes "they" in one sentance mean "jews in general" while in the next it clearly means "Israel"/"the Israeli government(s)".
Your point is well taken. However, it has become a custom to identify "Russians" with "Russia" (even if they live in the US), and whenever a statement about some bad things in Russia is made, this is immediately attributed to all the Russians. So it is only fair to treat the Jews in the same way. I understand that it goes against the western tradition of double standards towards Russia, but this thread is about double standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihkkal
Israel and Israelis (not jews)
Russia and Russians
not Russia and Eastern Orthodox christians. That would be your comparison. You are taking a country and labeling a whole people of a religion, Not a good comparison, and there is your flaw. Now of course most of Israel is jewish, but you are still making assumptions. Your logic of saying if people identify Russians with Russia does not hold up. Thats simply an excuse you are making for generalizing facts about jews.
[quote=[url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jew[/url]]
2 entries found for Jew.
To select an entry, click on it.
Jew
Wandering Jew
Main Entry: Jew
Pronunciation: 'j
[quote=bad manners][quote="[url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=jew[/url]":2mqvu6g8]
2 entries found for Jew.
To select an entry, click on it.
Jew
Wandering Jew
Main Entry: Jew
Pronunciation: 'j
Most of the prominent members of the American neo-conservative faction are Christian fundamentalists. Now there's a dangerous bunch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihkkal
No. Please consult the original URL. This article means no more than the word in question is as fuzzy as "Russian", and the political tradition of identifying the Jews with Israel exists independently of any statements of mine or yours or whoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
As I have just indicated, this identification exists regardless of my views. However, as you should already know, I strive for accuracy, and I am willing to correct my statement so as to avoid any incidental allusions: "While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades within their national state since the very moment they got a free hand there?"Quote:
This 'only fair' nonsense doesn't hold up, bad manners; twice you've used it now in separate threads and its only purpose is obfuscation. Something about two wrongs and a right springs to mind as an immediate refutation, but then you know that already.
I'm having a hard time following this thread so I won't pretend to try and sort anything out, but I just thought I would throw two cents in for whatever it's worth.
It appears that there may be some misunderstanding as to the term "Israelite" vs. "Israeli". "Israelite" is the ancient name for the Jewish race. The term "Jew" has replaced this term in the modern vocabulary. Those who are currently considered "Israelis" are citizens of Israel and may or may not be of Jewish lineage.
Anyway, If there is any confusion as to these terms I hope this helps clear it up.
Frances
Thanks, Frances. I'll pass that on to my parents' rabbi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances
If it exists, it exists erroneously. By all means identify Israel with Judaism, but not vice versa.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
Did. Mistake mine.Quote:
No. Please consult the original URL.
Would now be a good time to admit freely that Zionism is as dangerous for the world at large as Islamic fundamentalism? No? Ok.Quote:
As I have just indicated, this identification exists regardless of my views. However, as you should already know, I strive for accuracy, and I am willing to correct my statement so as to avoid any incidental allusions: "While having been conducting unequivocally racist and segregationist policies for decades within their national state since the very moment they got a free hand there?"
I do not even think that Z-thing exists. Do not put words in my mouth, please. All I ever wanted to say is that there are grounds for criticism, and that criticism should not be labeled "anti-Semitism". No more, but no less.
You know, I think I'm actually agreeing with bad manners. Jews aren't devils, but they aren't saints either. Western White people ditto. Black people ditto. It really irritates me when black people think they're being discriminated against every time they're accused of something. Never mind whether they're guilty or not, they're discriminated against. So they sue. And they win, somehow. Probably because no white person wants to be branded a racist.
Some goes for jews. As I said, there are a lot of good, nice jews and black people, but in the same ratio to bad ones as white people.
Jesus, this sounds childish. But you get my point.