Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

Thanks for the interesting comments. I have some questions for you - a bit blunt so apologies in advance. Just ignore if you don't want to answer.

I can understand that Russia may not appeal to you, and that you are patriotic about being Ukrainian.

However, the negative things in Russia are present in Ukraine too, aren't they? Corruption, oligarchs, poverty, possible lack of democracy (although it expresses itself quite differently in Ukraine, compared to Russia.

I am not being insulting or patronising, just comparing with other "language minorities" or border areas that I am familiar with. It's a complicated equation, which nationality people end up identifying with..... Clearly, in Eastern Ukraine - it varies from person to person.

I assume you were born in the USSR, so it's not like Ukrainian is your "birth" nationality, right? And you don't speak Ukrainian in everyday life... So it's hard to understand where the strong Ukrainian patriotism came from? Or is it more a case of "better the devil you know", i.e. Ukraine is marginally better than Russia (why?) Do you despise Russia for some reason?

What if you'd have stability, significantly more money in your pocket and the bilingual status of your region guaranteed as a Russian citizen? Would that be so bad? I am guessing that's how the miners, pensioners and others reason. Perhaps for you the economic aspect is irrelevant?

Doesn't it bother you, that foreign countries spur on an undemocratic coup d'etat in your country, that Ukraine doesn't seem to be able to manage its budget regardless of who is in charge and that people in equivalent cities in Russia are better off? I mean, it's been 22 years, and Russia is doing a lot better, at least in the big cities. Whatever else you can say about Belarus, it's stable and everyone has a job. But Ukraine...?!

I mean, Russia didn't start this, it just reacted to it. It was started by the Western Ukrainians mostly as I understand, and then re-inforced and spurred on by the EU and USA.

My country also has brother nations, and if things went totally down the drain with foreign meddling, undemocratic rulers, failed economy etc, I'd seriously look towards Norway, Finland or Denmark, swallowing my pride. The nationalism is not an issue, since the countries are so similar culturally, neither is language. Particularly if they guaranteed my language and offered a better living standard, I think I'd make the pragmatic choice. What am I missing here?

As for what Russia and Putin does - I think Putin has played the silence game for a very long time. Maybe he genuinely doesn't know to do.

And this situation is "damned if you do, damned if you don't" from the Russian perspective!

Particularly if, as Basil77 says, domestic opinion in Russia is now in favour of intervention and will think that Putin is a "pussy" if he doesn't.
Whereas in the international perspective, Putin would launch at the very least the start of the new Cold War, if not a real war.

it-Ogo, I guess the thought must have occurred to you:
What will you DO, if Russia actually goes in with troops on the ground?
Would you join some kind of resistance, physical, or other....
Or would you just say "here we go again, 3rd nationality and counting..." and get on with life.... Or look to move West within Ukraine, alt. emigrate...

Originally Posted by Hanna

I can understand that Russia may not appeal to you, and that you are patriotic about being Ukrainian.

I have no much sentiments about specific Ukrainian culture, history and national movement. For me as ethnic Russian, Russian culture is much closer. My position is a question of practice as Ukraine is the only chance for us here in Donbass for the decent life. Also I feel responcibility of Ukraine being its citizen for many years.

However, the negative things in Russia are present in Ukraine too, aren't they? Corruption, oligarchs, poverty, possible lack of democracy (although it expresses itself quite differently in Ukraine, compared to Russia.

In Russia all these things are conserved and accepted by the population. In Ukraine we are trying to fight them. That is the difference. That and the people. The people are different and the difference grows.

I assume you were born in the USSR, so it's not like Ukrainian is your "birth" nationality, right? And you don't speak Ukrainian in everyday life... So it's hard to understand where the strong Ukrainian patriotism came from? Or is it more a case of "better the devil you know", i.e. Ukraine is marginally better than Russia (why?) Do you despise Russia for some reason?

I told you above. I have been in Russia enough many times. The people in Ukraine (even here, in Donbass) are less cruel, more polite, with less xenophobia and more dignity. That was my feeling and that was my first step. The second step was my intellect, which says that Russia now goes VERY wrong way. And the final step was the last events.

What if you'd have stability, significantly more money in your pocket and the bilingual status of your region guaranteed as a Russian citizen.

If there were a Russia of my dream, I'd prefer it to any kind of Ukraine. But Russia is what it is.

Doesn't it bother you, that foreign countries spur on an undemocratic coup d'etat in your country,

The Maidan events are very complicated phenomenon and the definition "an undemocratic coup d'etat" is absolutely marginal in my eyes. The influence of foreign countries were much less, than Russian propaganda says, I think.

that Ukraine doesn't seem to be able to manage its budget regardless of who is in charge

The previous government failed drastically in many areas and the rebellions (both Maidan and current disorders) are the consequences. We need urgent reformations and the spiritual raise of people from Maidan could help to conduct them.

and that people in equivalent cities in Russia are better off?

That is not true. In my knowledge most Russians are much worse "off" despite even of bigger average income (the difference in prices is much bigger). The quality of life in my feeling in Ukraine is better than in Russia in average. The Moscow is rich but the Russia is poor. Some people from Ukraine (including the ones I know) go to work to Moscow (not to the "equivalent cities") and despite of being regularly humiliated there, they like to live "like people in Moscow". Still we have no enough raw oil and gas to support Moscow level of life here. We must work and evolve to live better, no other way.

I mean, Russia didn't start this, it just reacted to it. It was started by the Western Ukrainians mostly as I understand, and then re-inforced and spurred on by the EU and USA.

Ukraine started rebellion against corruption. Russia stroke our back invading Crimea then started and fuelled rebellion against Ukraine to distract everibody from Russia's actions in Crimea.

My country also has brother nations, and if things went totally down the drain with foreign meddling, undemocratic rulers, failed economy etc, I'd seriously look towards Norway or Finland, particularly if they guaranteed my language and offered a better living standard. What am I missing here?

And what if they guaranteed much worse standards? Do you know how many Russian intellectuals found a job and new home in Kiev because of being pressed in Russia? And how many come regularly to do what can't be done in Russia? Ukraine is the only country for them to guarantee both political freedoms and their language. Probably that is the real reason why Putin attacked us. We present danger for his power because Ukraine is becoming more attractive for Russian intellectual and creative class than the very Russia. In return he stroke us with our poorest and least responsible but most aggressive class plus his militaries, propaganda machine and oil&gas money as he did before to Russian intelligencia.

What will you DO, if Russia actually goes in. Would you join some kind of resistance, physical, or other.... Or would you just say "here we go again, 3rd nationality and counting..." and get on with life.... Or look to move West in Ukraine, alt. emigrate...

If Russia actually goes in I feel myself now evil enough to celebrate, as I am sure that it would sign the economical and organizational death penalty of Russia. Then... I am not a combatant neither a resistance organizer. I'll try to emigrate as far as possible to save my family and life from ongoing economical crash of Russia which promises to be very bloody.