Thread: Doku Umarov

Originally Posted by Ramil

Yes, you seem to forget that I AM a religious person,

No, no - I remember. But I thought you were arguing as if you had forgotten! I know it, because I do the same thing

Originally Posted by Ramil

Take me to your dealer. Mixing them all together....

Not at all! The mix was on purpose. Was too tired to think it through properly, the names popped into my head and I thought, why not those?

Because really, you wouldn't have any problem at all finding 10 million people to sign up on each one of the people I mentioned, as being a freedom fighter.

The trouble is: One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist or criminal! It's a hard balance. For example: Mahatma Gandhi was considered a terrorist by the British for a long time. Likewise David Ben Gurion who founded Israel. Hated by a billion moslems... a terrorist according to Britain for a decade... but a freedom fighter to the Israelis and Jews around the world.

The people I mentioned are considered heroes and freedom fighters in their countries and terrorist by others. Lenin: A hero to millions still, right? But a murderous tyrant according to others. It depends on where you are, your background and what time you live in... who it is politically correct and generally "safe" to call a freedom fighter or a tyrant. Jesus was executed for committing crimes against Roman laws, and agitating people against Rome. The PC view AD 30, was that Jesus was a troublemaker who deserved to die. (and how shocking that sounds now!)

And as we know, the winners always write the history!

Personally I think that anyone who is directly responsible for killing civilians is a gangster!
Certainly that includes Umarov.

But a more Politically Correct list of freedom fighters (according to the Nobel committee - so any complaints or jokes can be directed at them instead of making fun of me!): Aung San Suu kiu, Yassir Arafat. Andrei Sakharov, Barack Obama and the Dalai Lama.
Happy?

Originally Posted by Hanna

One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist or criminal! For example: Likewise David Ben Gurion who founded Israel. [...] a terrorist according to Britain for a decade... but a freedom fighter to the Israelis and Jews around the world.

I regret to inform you that I gave you a D for the history of Israel. Where did you found the information that Ben Gurion was ever a terrorist according to Britain? Quote the opposite, he served in the British Army in the WWI and was urging other Jews to serve in the British Army in the WWII. You seemed to confuse between Ben Gurion and another guy Yzhak Shamir who was indeed a former terrorist and became an Israeli PM some 50 years later when he turned into a seasoned politician and was never regarded as hero in Israel for his terrorist acts. For the rest of his life, he was trying to play down his role in those acts. Based on that, it seems to me that you might have heard about the Israeli terrorism against the Britain (which was real), but you have no clue what really happened. Hence you gave a very bad example to support your point.

However, you touched an interesting point and I'm ready to discuss that. You see, it's true that a "freedom fighter" can hate his "occupants" so much so that he would resort to the terrorism. But that would be a different kind of the terrorism. You see, if a person blows himself up in a military base or at least in a police department and kills those in service, I can agree he is a hero for his people and an enemy for the other party. Those in service have listed for it. There's no moral difference between that and the field battle. However, when a person blows himself up in a crowd to kill or wound as many civilians as possible which have little to say in their government's actions, that person is not a hero, not a freedom fighter, but a psycho. That who leads the psychos is not a psycho, however. Neither he is a freedom fighter. He is a cynical being that establishes (and enjoys) his power (and money) over his fellowmen by means of the psychos. So, please-please-please, don't ever call those who blow up the innocent civilians "rebels", "freedom fighters", or anything like that. Thanks in advance.