Thread: Does Communism still have a role to play, or is it dead?

Since we have several people who are knowledgeable about Communism here, let's consider whether we think that Communism still has something to offer to the modern world, or if it is dead dying...

In the 1990s all the talk was about the "Death of Communism" and how it was disgraced and would never again be relevant... The idea was that Communism was not able to survive on its own merits but needed such a tight control on any country where it was implemented, that the situation became intolerable for the very people it was supposed to liberate. Etc, etc. It stifled peoples work ethics and did not manage to produce the type of goods that people wanted. Plus there were endless examples of people being mistreated in the name of Communism.

But on the other hand, looking at the world today, we see rampant economic imperialism, the self destruction of capitalism that Marx predicted, growing class differences, greedy corporations trying to control people while slowly eroding culture, art and high ideals for the addictive junk culture that is the easiest and most profitable to sell. We are seeing wars for profit and while western workers are treated better than before, it is now sweatshop workers in other countries that are being (often) cruelly exploited just like in the days of Marx. Occupy Wall Street and the Arab Spring...

• So - is Communism dead or does it still have something to offer?
• Does it need to be replaced by some other ideology that can fight against injustices and greed?
• Do you think the predictions of Socialist philosophers are coming true, or have they been proven false?
• What will be the fate of the remaining socialist/communist countries?

My own knowledge of socialism has some serious gaps, and might be a bit too idealistic, so I am mainly interested to hear what others think.

Communism can only exist if all members of the society are highly educated and high moral persons
Not even single country succeeded in building of communism
However the idea of communism can be found in smaller groups and closed societies, on top secret scientific labs/bases for example, where people cannot get out to the real world but willing to spend their lives working on something interesting

Once you start forcing people to communism you can rather start calling it totalitarianism or sometimes socialism

There are theory and practice.

Theoretically classical Marxism (based on the idea of proletariat domination) became obsolete when informational society replaced industrial one and proletariat became a minority. As for Communism as an idea of perfect society, now there is no prove it is possible and no grounded plan to obtain it. On the other hand the idea of social justice will always be attractive.

In practice, all the regimes that proclaimed Communism as their ultimate goal were unsuccessful. On the other hand half-bred Socialism, which was implemented in Scandinavian countries, proved to be viable and rather nice. But you know more about that, Jo.

In ex-USSR countries Communistic symbols and rhetorics is a synonym of conservatism, patriotism and old-good-times for some part of elder population, nothing more.

Communism is still possible, I think, but not in the way Lenin or Marx saw it. And not in the near future.
If we imagine a society where the level of automation, overall production and energy output have reached a point to enable 1-2% of population to sustain the other 98-99% (by at least providing three basic essentials like food, clothing and houses for free) it will be technically an era of early communism. There will be no need for ideology or high moral principles of all society members. I may think too badly for the mankind, but I'm sure that 80-90% of population will stop working at this point being content with that free social minimum. Oh, there will be all sorts of poets, sculptors, musicians, movie producers and actors (yes, the majority of population) because there will be very little real work left (and 1-2% of those who really want to will continue to provide for the rest). To be more precise - people will start choosing their occupations according to their desires. Their choice will be dictated by what they really want to do and not by what they should do in order to survive. This, of course, will create many new problems, but I'll let the future generations to sort them out.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

There are theory and practice.

Theoretically classical Marxism (based on the idea of proletariat domination) became obsolete when informational society replaced industrial one and proletariat became a minority. As for Communism as an idea of perfect society, now there is no prove it is possible and no grounded plan to obtain it. On the other hand the idea of social justice will always be attractive.

In practice, all the regimes that proclaimed Communism as their ultimate goal were unsuccessful. On the other hand half-bred Socialism, which was implemented in Scandinavian countries, proved to be viable and rather nice. But you know more about that, Jo.

In ex-USSR countries Communistic symbols and rhetorics is a synonym of conservatism, patriotism and old-good-times for some part of elder population, nothing more.

Interesting and informative post! Thanks for responding.
Funny that there are people who think if Communism as Conservative.

As for Sweden - well, now that I am (temporarily) back here, I have my rose-coloured expat specs OFF and it's an absolute disgrace what has happened to all the nice (but occassionally annoying) socialist institutions of the past. Particularly a lot of previously state owned companies have been privatised and are providing a considerably WORSE service than before, with 1 grumpy stressed employee doing the job that was previously done by 2 people. At 3 times the old price...

The trains used to be clean, modern and punctual. Now, in the hands of their new private owners they are dirty, outdated and delayed! The only thing they have got better at, is checking the tickets.

The country used to be much cleaner before as well, we were famous for it. But now it's so bloody dirty and messy everywhere because street cleaning is carried out by some private company that does the bare minimum with as few employees as they can possibly get away with.

Previously, they were out ploughing and sanding the streets in about 5 minutes after it started snowing. Snow maintenance crew member was the ultimate job for alcoholics that could not manage anything else. Everything worked perfectly.

But it is not profitable to have snow maintenance crews standing by all winter.... so now that even snow ploughing has to be profitable there is chaos in the morning every time it has snowed....!

The two major old things that are still around are free child care and a central queue for rental flats. Both of these thing just irritate me at the moment. I was offered a flat which was very nice, but located in an absolute dump an hour from town by commuter train. So I declined it and got a harsh telling off. And since it's virtually impossible to sack anyone, no company dares hire people properly so every other job is done by a temp from an agency, or a consultant.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The country used to be much cleaner before as well, we were famous for it. But now it's so bloody dirty and messy everywhere because street cleaning is carried out by some private company that does the bare minimum with as few employees as they can possibly get away with.

But you're still democratic and preach multiculturalism... I wonder when the Europeans will finally say 'That's enough!' Do they still have that potential?

Originally Posted by Ramil

But you're still democratic and preach multiculturalism... I wonder when the Europeans will finally say 'That's enough!' Do they still have that potential?

No.... Sweden is rather spineless, sadly. Since we lost our empire the last viking spirit left the country.... (darn Russia!!!) It tends to get carried away with whatever ideological ideas are fashionable. Anything from racial hygiene to left wing utopianism.

Right now it's multiculturalism (right - because that always works out so well.... NOT!!!!)
The latest thing is feminsm. Even men have to be feminist, I am not joking. Political parties talk incessantly about how "feminist" they are, and feminism has some really weird results in the work place - mainly that many men cooly leave work at about 3 o'clock to collect their kids at the creche.

The idea is the more men are like women, and women are like men, the better.
It's just really irritating. I like being a woman and don't want to pretend that I have the personality and interests of a man. Similarly it is to me neither attractive, nor much point in men trying to be like women.
Saying something like this is totally unacceptable in Sweden at the moment.
A bit like saying America's invasion of Vietnam was justified, in the 1970s.... Haha!

Living up to your ears in hypocricy about multiculturalism, equal rights, feminism etc is a good way to keep the lid of the pot tightly pressed until the pot explodes. And it is usually very messy.

Well if we ever have a revolution here, it will have to be scheduled for the summer because it's too dark and cold for ANYTHING to happen in the winter. Probably people would get so hung up around getting a permit and filling in forms and follow the process for having a revolution... that nothing would ever happen!
Right now it feels like Norway have their oil and gas and can do whatever they please.
Finns work hard and are finally having a bit of luck with their economy. And using their proximity to Russia and EU membership for a successful synergy - it is booming.
Only Sweden is confused, disillusioned and starting to lag behind....

Originally Posted by Ramil

Living up to your ears in hypocricy about multiculturalism, equal rights, feminism etc is a good way to keep the lid of the pot tightly pressed until the pot explodes. And it is usually very messy.

EDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do so many people here reply to this socialist feminist? I PERCEIVE A HYPOCRITE. Say one thing and then the total opposite in the next sentence.

"Right now it's multiculturalism (right - because that always works out so well.... NOT!!!!)" LOL! YOU CANNOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. When will Russians here have real political discussions here?

And for the record, Communism won't work. It hasn't worked anywhere and it's 2012 so what Marx viewed doesn't apply. The State interference in society and economy is what is causing the decay of economies. The enabling of bankers is based on an incestuous relationship with Government and Finance. These are socialist inventions. It's crony capitalism. (Edited.L.)Maybe I'll get a visit since that other guy Marc can't call this out either.

I edited my own post. I am sure, it would have been. Also, for the record, I think Hanna and her sister have posts that seem to indicate brainwashing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well if we ever have a revolution here, it will have to be scheduled for the summer because it's too dark and cold for ANYTHING to happen in the winter. Probably people would get so hung up around getting a permit and filling in forms and follow the process for having a revolution... that nothing would ever happen!

1317350717_facepalm_3.jpg

Yes, that's the bigest European problem that need to be solved.

Communism in theory is nice.
You go and work for free, then you go to a store and take what you want for free.

The main problem is - why should I work if I can just go and take what I want?

Originally Posted by nulle

Communism in theory is nice.
You go and work for free, then you go to a store and take what you want for free.

The main problem is - why should I work if I can just go and take what I want?

Read my post above (#4 in this thread). Apparently you belong to those 98-99% who will do exactly that - parasite on the system. There will be 1-2% however who will do all the work for free simply because they feel like working a little. Work will become a privilege, not a burden.

It is possible. We just don't have all necessary technologies yet.

haha, saw your picture and remembered, the Star Trek universe is allegedly communist. In the future!

Live long and prosper!

It is possible. We just don't have all necessary technologies yet.

I agree, that when everything is nearly 100% automated - it might be possible.

Let's say, the system is 99% automated and it produces the goods to satisfy the 'basic needs' according to Ramil.

Say, I go to the store to get a bottle of vodka and meet Ramil in the same store. So, we start chatting and then discover Hanna is not in the store to pick up her daily fresh flower basket. It turned out Hanna got sick that day and the flower basket got delivered to her right to her doorstep (by automation, I guess). So, then I start asking: why do I have to get up and go to the store to get vodka? Ah, says Ramil, that's because that's not your basic need, since you can go to the store yourself. So, for you that would just be a comfort. And the comfort cannot be satisfied by definition, since there's never limits to the comfort. But, then I say: ok, but the store is closer to me than to Ramil, so Ramil would normally go an extra mile, meaning the location adds more value to me than to Ramil. Are you ok with that, Ramil? He would say, of course I'm not, I think I should live closer to the store because I'm doing sports for fun and I get tired more than Crocodile who is only writing poems all day long, also for fun. In the end, we all agree that there's no social justice until the food is delivered right to the doorstep of both Ramil's and mine.

And after that basic need is satisfied, we start wondering about who is going to cook for us? The freely delivered food tastes bad and not healthy, and both of us can't cook, so should we be going on destroying our health and writing worse poems and achieving worse results in sports than we could? No, we want the delicious and healthy food for both of us! And that would be another basic needs. So, let's say that is resolved by the automation. The next one is the orientation. Hanna is getting more sun, because her apartment faces the South, and Ramil's and mine are facing the North. Getting enough sun is a healthy issue and therefore is basic need. So, me and Ramil applied and got the automated parabolic outside mirrors which reflect the sun delivering some of it into our apartments. Then a new issue arises.. and so on. There's never end even to the so-called 'basic needs'.

And then, the bigger issue starts to loom: the socially just wealth distribution. Say, you have 7 people and 3 pieces of bread. So, Ramil says: there cannot be Communism in that case! The basic needs would have to be satisfied by automation. Ok, so let's do that and change the question: there are 7 people and 11 pieces of bread. Who gets the pieces and how many? Based on what?

Since, both of the problems (the satisfaction of the basic needs and the socially just distribution) cannot really be solved fairly, the Communism implementation according to Ramil is not feasible. There may be more Communism or less Communism, but there never could be THE Communism. What do you think of that?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

...

Impressive "towel", Cap. "Consumer society is incapable of self-restraint" TM

Originally Posted by Ramil

It is possible. We just don't have all necessary technologies yet.

I agree with those that say Communism is a lovely idea, and that human nature is the obstacle.
It's too bad that humanity is not (yet?) at the point whereby it can work. Also, I don't like revolutions and lots of the bad stuff that comes with implementing communism or even socialism.

But I particularly like "from all according to their abilities, to all according to their needs.

I am aware that socialist countries to varying degrees try to educate / influence people from childhood, to become better human beings, that would function better under Communism. But I am not sure how successful that really is/was.

The Christian view on socialism/communism is interesting too:

According to the Christianity I grew up with, Jesus pretty much WAS a socialist... The disciples shared everything, and likewise the early Christians, Jesus despised wealth and preached against rich people. Liberation theology etc. Christianity was all about solidarity and taking care of the weaker people in society.

According to other Christians, for example many in the UK and US, socialism is practically un-christian and communism is impossible due to the sinful nature of people. To try to create a paradise on Earth goes against God's will. Not to mention the fact that Marx was rather anti-religion.

Then we have the argument that nobody has actually managed really Communism anyway, so there is no telling whether it actually works once it is in place.

But I share Nulle's worries that people simply get lazy and don't work unless there is something making them. The majority of people do not have jobs that are stimulating, interesting or fulfilling...

Perhaps in the future when robots do all the boring work and humans do only interesting work, it would work.
Or perhaps somebody could refine communism in such a way that people have sufficient incentive to work, without having to threaten them.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Impressive "towel", Cap. "Consumer society is incapable of self-restraint" TM

And I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I know it's probably common to compare the Communist regimes to the prison, but let's look at that objectively. The inmates have clothes, roof, work, and some leisure time. The basic needs are satisfied. To the cave men, that would seem like a very decent life. Nobody is dying from hunger. There's even some medical service. At least, much more than you could wish in the tribal society. Some leisure time allows for some intellectual and creative life, like books and art. So, the Communism exists now. For the cave men though.

If that would seem like stretching it out, let's look closer to a typical person on the financial relief (like Welfare) in a typical bloody-sucking capitalist country. That person would have free: one-room apartment, food, clothes, etc. and don't even have to work for that! Isn't that the Communism a typical proletarian of the end 19th century would dream? It's right here, before our eyes! No need for Great October Socialist Revolution, Civil War, Industrialization...

Why the prison or the welfare is not acceptable for everyone? Obviously it's due to the social competition, which I think is a positive and constructive optimization force. We want to maximize our comfort and minimize our efforts. It's thanks to that drive that we're not in a cave right now.

I agree with those that say Communism is a lovely idea

I don't agree.