Business lobby calls for twice as many migrants | POLITICS | The Moscow News
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As I understand it there are LOTS of non-Russians in Russia, particularly people from ex Soviet countries.
Since they were drawn into the Russian sphere of interest largely against their will, it seems a bit unfair to discriminate against them now... They are not taking jobs that regular Russians want, do they?
But on the other hand, no doubt there are the same problems in Russia as we see in Europe, i.e. people arriving who do not fit into society, form criminal gangs etc. Not sure how "Russified" people in Central Asia got during the USSR, but it's clear that they are quite different nowadays.
People from some Central Asian and Caucasian countries are eligible for refugee status in parts of the EU, I think. I have seen some such people and heard them speak Russian with an accent.
This is a really complicated question.
At least in Russia you have no "refugees" that draw on the resources of society without working. This is a huge problem in the rest of Northern Europe. People in general hate it, but it just continues regardless.
If they work, then there is less of an issue I think.
So do you think that if Pakistanis, Hindus, Arabs, Africans were in the sphere of England, France ets, they shouldn't be hindered to move there now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Of course there are works where they are needed but it seems there are already more than enough of them and many of them come not to work ...Quote:
They are not taking jobs that regular Russians want, do they?
During the USSR they were satisfied to stay in their republics but when they got the craved freedom they rushed to the oppressor ...Quote:
But on the other hand, no doubt there are the same problems in Russia as we see in Europe, i.e. people arriving who do not fit into society, form criminal gangs etc. Not sure how "Russified" people in Central Asia got during the USSR, but it's clear that they are quite different nowadays.
In Europe at least there are visa regimes with all those countries but in Russia visa regimes are only for civilized states ...Quote:
People from some Central Asian and Caucasian countries are eligible for refugee status in parts of the EU, I think. I have seen some such people and heard them speak Russian with an accent.
This is a really complicated question.
At least in Russia you have no "refugees" that draw on the resources of society without working. This is a huge problem in the rest of Northern Europe. People in general hate it, but it just continues regardless.
If they work, then there is less of an issue I think.
Russia doesn't even know what migrants are, yet. It's just tip of an iceberg
The problem is that Russian economy is not developed; if it were, there would be enough jobs for everyone. I've recently read an issue of the "Odnako" about and it was controversal. Migrants certainly cause problems, but I don't think we can forbid them to come, especially regarding the reitegration process. In the last 150 years millions of Russians moved (or have moved?) to the Central Asia and other places.
I don't suggest to forbid them to come but we already with uncontrolled migration have big unemployment, low salaries, high crime ets and the need of reintegration seems quite obscure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Yeah, wait until you have Somalis walking around in ghost-like burkas on your streets, cooking food that make everyone on the block feel sick...
Who can not read and write and are supported by the tax payers while they continue to have more and more children.
I know these Somalis are not bad people and I do not wish them any harm. But they do not belong in Northen Europe anymore than Europeans belong in Africa.
Well, they DID bring it upon themselves partly. But the immigrants in England and France at usually WORK.Quote:
So do you think that if Pakistanis, Hindus, Arabs, Africans were in the sphere of England, France ets, they shouldn't be hindered to move there now?
It's much worse in Germany, Netherlands and Scandinavia where they are said to be asylum seekers and refugees and are supported by the government for years as their asylum applications are processed. If they are sent back because their asylum application fail, they get something lik USD 20, 000 to start over on if they have a large family.
Also, in Russia you have a population deficit, don't you. So you might actually need the immigrants.
The article that Romik links to says that the immigrants have a lower rate of criminality than average in Russia.
Hanna, this made me giggle... I used to live upstairs from Somalis who fit this description.. (well, I don't know about their literary skills, but the other parts) .. The only two interactions we'd ever have were 1) They would tell me almost daily to turn my (admittedly loud) music down.. and 2) They would routinely burn cooking oil, and it would waft up to my place =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I agree with you that these types are probably not bad people.. All things considered, they weren't the worst neighbors I've had.
What would you think of a program like, a group of literate volunteers, who went around to these immigrant communities to impart some basic skills - survival reading/writing basics, etc....? Maybe that sounds silly, but at inception it seemed a good idea to me..
I don't like in Russia (as yet) but I would volunteer for something like this if I did and could..
There's probably more involved here than I know about, though.
Umm... and I know I probably shouldn't even go INTO this part but.. what you said about Europeans don't belong in Africa/Africans don't belong in Europe? As an acquaintance of yours who appreciates the personality you've presented on the pages of masterrussian.net... Well, you seem like a pretty tolerant person. I'd advise looking at that statement again.. Maybe in light of the well-supported scientific/archeological hypothesis that's quickly on its way to being accepted canon, namely that all human life began roughly in the center of Africa and worked its way out over millenniae, that this is an overly harsh statement.
I mean I get what you're trying to say - I think..... But maybe these immigrants have a need for a new place to be "from," and the old place that they were "from" is simply not tenable.. Such was often the case with the jews and the gypsies, from time to time in history.. Even the colonists who started the US were fish-out-of-water, and if the Native Americans told them they don't belong in America and need to go back to Europe.. well, not only would "religious freedom" be a lot less established in today's day and age, but my country and anything good it might have brought into existence would never have happened..
Anyway we're more likely in agreeance than not, that we all need to titrate one part Patriotism with one part Tolerance - if either one outweighs the other, the brew will be bitter.. (that's what I think, at least)
KidK ... Yeah I know my comment was a bit intolerant. It came out too harsh. Obviously I don't mean that there should be no Africans in Europe. I don't mind people who work and are part of society. The skin colour is not relevant.
But the situation with immigration is out of control in Europe, and it is a different type of people arriving in Europe, compared with America. I feel very torn about this. It's the culture clash that does not work.
But the facts cannot be denied. Most long term unemployed are foreign-born, and also most of those in prison.
And btw, in Sweden the state pays the immigrants to go to school and take literacy, language and work skills courses. So, volunteers are not needed. But many of them don't go, or they go and are not capable of learning. The women don't see why they need to read and write, and the men don't particularly encourage it.
I honestly think that they are decent people, many of them. They would probably like to work but they can't - they are not allowed to while the asylum claim is being investigated. And afterwards they cannot get a job because people simply don't trust that they are competent and hardworking, and their culture is different. Many male refugees from the Middle East and Africa do not use deodorant and or shower regularly and it is very noticable. These sorts of things prevent them from getting a job.
Anyonw can go by train, bus or walk to Europe from the Middle East. They turn up with $ 10, unrealistic dreams and are forced to start lying about having an asylum claim because that is the only way that they can stay legally. It takes years to check up their claims and they get a lawyer representing them, at no cost to them. In the meantime the system messes them up as they cannot work. Many become disillusioned, marginalised or criminal and lose their self esteem.
I would much rather see a quota for foreign workers, low skilled and high skilled - first come first served, and a special quota in each category for women, so that not only men come (that is a problem in the refugee groups, there are very few women).
Somali family in Sweden - will they ever be able to adjust_
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...0WFEjlAe_Wt2DM
The same goes for Scandinavia, doesn't it? So be happy for Somalis, they'll save you :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
They say whatever they want to achieve their goals.Quote:
The article that Romik links to says that the immigrants have a lower rate of criminality than average in Russia.
Quote:
Moscow Investigators say that every seventh murder and almost half rapes committed by foreigners. And in most cases the perpetrators were in the capital illegally.
Новости NEWSru.com :: Столичные следователи подсчитали, что на совести мигрантов половина изнасилований и каждое седьмое убийство
It seems you like, everywhere it's good, they work and improve demography but only for Scandinavia it's bad ;-)Quote:
In Moscow, in the I half of 2011 the proportion of crimes committed by illegal immigrants accounted for 48.1%.
МВД: Мигранты-нелегалы совершили половину всех преступлений в Москве :: NoNaMe
Why, there are good Swedish women for them ;)Quote:
special quota in each category for women, so that not only men come (that is a problem in the refugee groups, there are very few women).
Please leave alone your overborne PC for your Country, we aren't insulting them but we do not have to have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkboom
I see these kind of talks everywhere on Russian forums now. And mass media "подливает масла в огонь"
As you may read, Romik, these "articles" talking about illegal immigrants not just immigrants and they also saying that crime rate is going down comparing to 2010 but who would like to put THAT as a headline, let's put "rapes and murders" 'cause people like it more
It is very hard to become immigrant in Belarus. Any crime - go away for 2 up to 10 years. Every citizenship application is confirmed by the president.
Because of universal compulsory education if children don't go to school, they become unparent and the state force ex-parents to work because they should pay for their ex-children. You are not allowed to stay in country if you don't have work or don't study at the university.
So the state takes the children from the parents, if the parents don't make the children go to school...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry Khomitchuk
That is probably a quite efficient system.
I saw no gangs, vandalism or hooligans when I was in Belarus and I visited lots of different places. It's clean, quite well looked after and regular people are honest, at least they were to me. Everyone has a job. I got quite a good impression of Belarus.
But then at the same time I heard lots of bad things --- I met two people who really hated the president, and |English speaking media write that those who want to protest are not allowed and sometimes imprisoned or penalised. Some people live on very little money and find it very hard, blaming the government. But likewise, in Minsk many have a good and peaceful lifestyle - certainly much better than in the areas that the would-be refugees come from, in the Middle East and Africa. It's hard to form an opinion about Belarus. I am really glad I went there though - I had a very nice time.
I did see a few Arab and other Middle Eastern people in Minsk - not many. I could hear them speaking Arabic and the women were wearing headscarves etc. They were eating at a restaurant and shopping at a market. Don't know what they were doing in Minsk - could be anything, I guess. I think I saw one black person for the entire time I was in Belarus, over two months.
Respect. And of course the opinion of one insignificant liberal-minded american won't change a thing. But, well, here's the thing: These migrants, refugees, outcasts, are already everywhere else. They are being driven from their homelands, those who aren't sickened or killed there. And Russia happens to be the biggest (physical) country on Earth, at least so I'm led to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romik
So, sure, you don't have to have them. But where are they gonna go? There's a famous Catch-22 to the "NIMBY" principle. And what is going to become their fate, if they're not allowed in?
Better to have them in and tell them what to do and how to behave, enough so that all parties get along. Better to recruit them to make your country stronger, to employ the unique skills and assets they may be able to bring. It's moving with the force of the punch, instead of blocking it with resisting force. In the end, it can give you strength, instead of taking it away.
That said, nothing will ever make me like the smell of scalded cooking oil. ;
EDIT: For the record, I'm not at all a fan of the US' current policy on immigration, which causes problems for many people who would choose to stay in the US if they could. It's an old running joke, the Green Card thing.. But it's also a policy problem that needs to get fixed. (--1 romney)
Russia doesn't need migrants it's sure.
If we didn't have these migrants who take our jobs Russian population would stop die out.
Migrants it's just a pretext to not pay disent salaries. As no Russian want to wark like slave, but migrants gladly do it.
As a result we have:
1 enemployed Russians
2 migrants slaves
3 eitherway happy businessmen with big pockets! lol
The 'cheap worker' deception didn't work in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. But, it's been a disaster in Europe, especially.
The fact that the 'official' Russian government is trying to push the idea through definitely speaks volumes. The corrupt, unethical Government advocates more migrants.... warning bells go off for you.
This advice I want to give with pure sincerity and good faith. Amend your constitution in such a way that you allow foreign investments amounting to 100% of ownership equity like Singapore does. Read Lee Kwan Yew's book FROM THIRD WORLD TO FIRST. It narrates how the ex-Prime Minister turned the Singaporean economy into a miraculous one. Cut taxes at least to 15% like Lee does and Harper did this year. I can tell you, you can accomodate as many a labour force each year, as many a graduating class each year and as many a number of immigrants each year. If you are inspired with Lee's economic miracle and you want to make money from him, sell one of your smallest islands to Singapore for 40 billion dollars. Those are his surplus budget per year because of his economic policy. When worse comes to worse, Philippines will sell one of her islands to Singapore too.