Thread: Я думаю, что...

Hello.

Я думаю, русским мужчинам абсолютно всё равно, на каком масле им готовят обед (или что там еще, крепы?) их женщины.

In some internet grammar I read this:

Perhaps the most common of the Russian subordinating conjunctions is the ubiquitous что. This conjunction marks a verbal complement, i.e. a sentence that functions as a direct object of a verb. For example, if you have a word for what you wish to express as a direct object, you simply put that word in the accusative case: Максим слышал музыку 'Maxim heard the music'. But what if there is no word for what Maxim heard. In that case you have to describe what he heard in a sentence. However, sentences cannot reflect case and direct objects must have case in Russian. So, in Russian you have to put in a 'dummy' pronoun to reflect case and the most common one is что: Максим слышал, что Горький произвёл скандал в Нью Йорке 'Maxim heard (that) Gorky created a scandal in New York'. Notice that the corresponding 'that' in English is omissible; in Russian it is not.

I think I am missing something. Already I have been puzzled by the fact that in some events, one may use a relative pronoun with no antecedent, as in Я понимаю, что ты хочешь сказать. I understand what you mean. It was hard already for me to accept this fact, as no grammar I've read (including the highly-praised "Comprehensive russian grammar" by Terrence Wade) does mention it.
Now I see an ellipsis of the subordinating conjunction which some say is mandatory. The more I learn about russian, the more grammar books seem to be absolutly unreliable.

Could someone tell me when and how the pronoun/conjunction что can be omitted? Or provide some clues?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Zubr

The more I learn about russian, the more grammar books seem to be absolutly unreliable.

I believe it should be true about every natural living language. Any rule has an exception; the problem is to detect when this exception is naturally appliable.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Could someone tell me when and how the pronoun/conjunction что can be omitted? Or provide some clues?

I do not know rules but can provide some examples like yours (omitted words are in brackets).

Бывает (так, что) и палка стреляет.
Я знаю, (что) город будет!
Приходит (такое) время, (что) с юга птицы прилетают.

Hmm... Looks like all of the omitted conjunctions was used in complex sentences.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Hello.

Я думаю, русским мужчинам абсолютно всё равно, на каком масле им готовят обед (или что там еще, крепы?) их женщины.

... So, in Russian you have to put in a 'dummy' pronoun to reflect case and the most common one is что...

"На каком" is that "dummy pronoun" here and you cannot insert "что" into this sentence. Basically "что" is very similar to English "what" and "that". The notable exception is English construction "what kind" which is translated as "какой".

What did you say? - Что ты сказал?
I said that I understood you. - Я сказал, что понимаю тебя.
I understand what you mean. - Я понимаю, что ты хочешь сказать.

What kind of oil do you use for cooking? - На каком масле ты готовишь?

In conversational Russian the что can sometimes be left out when it corresponds to English “that.” Thus in conversational Russian you may heаr both A and B:

A. Я думаю, что она скоро придёт.
B. Я думаю, она скоро придёт.

In formal written Russian you would not leave it out. In sentences A and B it is perhaps best not to think of что as a relative pronoun. Instead you can think of it is a complementizer, that is, a word that introduces a subordinate clause that does not require a relative pronoun.

When the что corresponds to English “what,” then it normally cannot be left out in either conversational or formal Russian. Thus C is okay in the meaning of “I want to know what she bought,” but D is not okay:

C. Я хочу знать, что она купила.
D. Я хочу знать, она купила.

Originally Posted by Полуношник

"На каком" is that "dummy pronoun" here and you cannot insert "что" into this sentence.

Why not? The "что" can be inserted: Я думаю, что русским мужчинам абсолютно всё равно...

[quote=Оля]

Originally Posted by "Полуношник":2bzxsmbq

"На каком" is that "dummy pronoun" here and you cannot insert "что" into this sentence.

Why not? The "что" can be inserted: Я думаю, что русским мужчинам абсолютно всё равно...[/quote:2bzxsmbq]
Yes, of course. Sorry.

Спасибо всем. Я думаю, (что) понял.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Я думаю, (что) понял.

Not quite.
Sometimes omitting pronouns sounds bad in Russian. So correct variants are:
(Я) думаю, что понял.
But:
(Я) думаю, _ я понял.

Originally Posted by Оля

Not quite.
Sometimes omitting pronouns sounds bad in Russian. So correct variants are:
(Я) думаю, что понял.
But:
(Я) думаю, _ я понял.

Originally Posted by Zubr

Hei, keep your head. At least for me, both your variants are perfect!
A. Я думаю, что понял.
B. Я думаю, понял.

To return to the example the original poster quoted from the grammar book:

Максим слышал, что Горький произвёл скандал в Нью Йорке 'Maxim heard (that) Gorky created a scandal in New York'. Notice that the corresponding 'that' in English is omissible; in Russian it is not.

I think the interesting point here is that this is a sentence which needs to follow rules for reported speech. So to clarify, is it permissible to leave out the что in sentences with reported speech, too? In English, reported speech is marked by a back shift of the verb tense in addition to 'that', as in 'I am sick of it' - 'he said he was sick of it'. In my native German, the verb form receives a subjunctive inflection which also permits leaving out the conjunction 'dass', which is identical to 'that' and 'что' here. In both English and German we have an additional grammatical feature which marks the utterance as something someone else said but which you just report and do not necessarily agree to. I am not aware of anything other than что to do the same for a Russian utterance with reported speech. Can the что still be left out?

Robin

Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

Hei, keep your head. At least for me, both your variants are perfect!
A. Я думаю, что понял.
B. Я думаю, понял.

No, the latter variant could mean "I think [you or he] understood". And actually that's exactly what it in most contexts would mean. It is a question of usage of one or another phrase, not even a question of grammar or vocabulary. "Я думаю, понял", without any context, has some vagueness in it: кто понял? Meanwhile the same sentence with the "что" does not have that vagueness. Strange enough, but that's how it is.

P.S. It's funny, but I do not see any problems about " _ Думаю, понял". Without the "я" at the beginning.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

To return to the example the original poster quoted from the grammar book:

Максим слышал, что Горький произвёл скандал в Нью Йорке 'Maxim heard (that) Gorky created a scandal in New York'. Notice that the corresponding 'that' in English is omissible; in Russian it is not.

I think the interesting point here is that this is a sentence which needs to follow rules for reported speech. So to clarify, is it permissible to leave out the что in sentences with reported speech, too? In English, reported speech is marked by a back shift of the verb tense in addition to 'that', as in 'I am sick of it' - 'he said he was sick of it'. In my native German, the verb form receives a subjunctive inflection which also permits leaving out the conjunction 'dass', which is identical to 'that' and 'что' here. In both English and German we have an additional grammatical feature which marks the utterance as something someone else said but which you just report and do not necessarily agree to. I am not aware of anything other than что to do the same for a Russian utterance with reported speech. Can the что still be left out?

Robin

Yes, it can.

Originally Posted by Оля

"Я думаю, понял", without any context, has some vagueness in it: кто понял?

Generally, I agree with you, but here we have context and it is clear for me кто понял. So I wouldn't say that it sounds bad.

Some more examples:

Иванов сказал, он заболел. - In a stand along sentence you should use the pronoun (and it still is ambiguous, btw)

Иванов скалал, он не придёт. - Почему? - Он сказал, заболел. - You can drop the pronoun

Я не согласен с тем, что вы говорите.

Could it mean both
i) I disagree with what you say.
ii) I disagree with the fact that you are speaking.

If yes, is there a way to disambiguate?

(Also the current debate is very interesting. )

Originally Posted by Zubr

Я не согласен с тем, что вы говорите.

Could it mean both
i) I disagree with what you say.
ii) I disagree with the fact that you are speaking.

Technically, yes, but logically, how can you disagree with the fact that someone is speaking? If he/she is, you must be deaf.