Крошка/Мужчина

Okay I have been arguing constantly with a native Russian speaker (who as I am with English, doesn't understand the rules, so when I say nominative, accusative its completely over her head). My argument was that Мужчина declines and acts like a female word in every way, but when you use adjectives you use the male versions. But at least this word can only ever refer to a man.

Now the word Крошка as far as I know just means Baby. and as with words like Врач can be used for both males and females.

So I'm asking is the phrase "Мой сладкий крошка" valid if you had a baby boy? I understand maybe it could sound weird and other words are available but I am just asking if it is valid/legal haha.

I would vote for "valid". Origin:

"Стала петь мышонку кошка:
Мяу, мяу, спи, мой крошка!
Мяу, мяу, ляжем спать
Мяу, мяу, на кровать."

I'd vote for non-valid.

"Крошка сын
к отцу пришел,
и спросила кроха:
- Что такое
хорошо
и что такое
плохо?"
_________________
Hence, I'd say cпросила моя сладкая кроха.

кроха=крошка

it does sound weird

i'd never use this word meaning a male person, even though a baby boy

i'd opt for малыш instead

but i can imagine it being said affectionately by a girl to a guy

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Originally Posted by diogen_

I'd vote for non-valid. ...

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+1
(Deleted. L.)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

I would vote for "valid". Origin:

"Стала петь мышонку кошка:
Мяу, мяу, спи, мой крошка!
...

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+1 ;-)

"...Ведёт кораблик утка,
Испытанный моряк.
- Земля! - сказала утка. -
Причаливайте! Кряк!"

С. Маршак

(Моряк/Женщина)

There are a few words with "-а" ending that can be used either as female or male nouns. There is even a special term for them. "Крошка" is one of that nouns. Nevertheless, male adjectives with these nouns do sound weird. "Мой крошка" or "крошка пришел/спросил" sound good. "Сладкий крошка"... I don't know.

"Врач" is a male noun. Although phrases like "хорошая врач посоветовала" are common in an informal language, you should avoid them in a formal text.

Имена существительные общего рода. Существует около ста пятидесяти существительных с колебанием по роду: http://russia-sng.iphil.ru/index.php...1&limitstart=4

So to collate all the above haha. Even though it sounds weird and in all likelyhood would never be used. It is legally possible to use male adjectives with female words such as крошка which can describe both sexes?

I mean if Мой крошка is valid then surely сладкий крошка must be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Полуношник

There are a few words with "-а" ending that can be used either as female or male nouns. There is even a special term for them. "Крошка" is one of that nouns.

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Do you happen to know the special term?

Моё солнышко!
Мой сладкий сахар!
....
Моя крошка!

По-моему, так. Или применяем такие однозначные конструкции как "крошка-сын".

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Originally Posted by ShakeyX

Do you happen to know the special term?

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Lampada knows:

Quote:

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Имена существительные общего рода

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Ahhhh cheers! Should of probably seen that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Полуношник

Lampada knows:

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I just learned it.

"Мужчина" is a masculine gender (even though it has the -a ending), "крошка" is always feminine. You cannot use masculine adjective with a word of feminine gender.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Имена существительные общего рода. Существует около ста пятидесяти существительных с колебанием по роду: 偕髑褂 ?茆 - 令? 碆關鉐 鱚鉋蓙 ?髓繪 鞳?. 緋? 體?髓礦鱚譛邇?

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крошка is not the case. It is always feminine.

Okay I'm getting mixed messages here :P

As the above poem uses мой крошка. Are you saying that only мой is allowed or just that using it at all is completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by ShakeyX

Okay I'm getting mixed messages here :P

As the above poem uses мой крошка. Are you saying that only мой is allowed or just that using it at all is completely wrong.

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The poet's grammar is correct. And it's not only you who is confused. This is a last thing we need here.

I think "мой крошка" is allowed, but is not the best choice in the normal speech. You should address a baby boy as "моя крошка", "моя утка", "мой селезень", "мой утёнок", "моё солнышко" and that would be the best. The usage of "сладкий" is usually avoided when addressing a baby for being overly-luscious. Those who address a baby that way in Russian are usually under a significant influence of a foreign language in which that would be a norm.

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Originally Posted by Anixx

крошка is not the case. It is always feminine.

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Грамота.ру:

2. КРОШКА, -и; м. и ж. Разг.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Полуношник

Грамота.ру:

2. КРОШКА, -и; м. и ж. Разг.

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Does the М. и ж denote Muzh and Zhena? As in you can use both?

Nouns of common gender (общего рода, marked as м. и ж. in dictionaries) can refer to objects of both genders. They are often emotionally charged and speak of some qualities of objects, or refer to their occupations:
староста, шалунишка, умница, неряха, жадина, непоседа, недотёпа, торопыга, etc.

Both verbs and adjectives in this case are changed accordingly and match the gender of the object in question.
Наш новый староста объявил о собрании. (male)
Наша новая староста объявила о собрании. (female)

Words defining occupations ( м. in dictionaries)
Some words defining occupations can also refer to both genders: врач, учитель, менеджер, etc.
In this case verbs should match the actual gender of the person:
Врач уже пришел (male)
Врач уже пришла (female)

But attributes/adjectives are always in masculine:
Он хороший врач
Она хороший врач

That's why such words are considered to be of masculine gender (NOT common gender).

Masculine nouns ending with -а (-я)
Папа, дядя, юноша, юнга, слуга, братишка, etc.

These nouns just happen to look like they are feminine, but they "act" like usual masculine nouns and should not be confused with nouns of common gender.

So... "крошка" belongs to the first category, thus technically it's correct to say "Мой сладкий крошка". But such a phrase is rather awkward, probably because it's something that is more likely to be said to women, and "крошка" with its "feminine" ending does not help.

Please note, that people often disregard these rules, going with what their guts tell them and saying things like "Наш врач пришел" (about a woman) or "моя кроха" about a boy. So don't be surprised. ))

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Does the М. и ж denote Muzh and Zhena? As in you can use both?

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Мужской и женский (род) - masculine and feminine (gender)

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Masculine nouns ending with -а (-я)
Папа, дядя, юноша, юнга, слуга, братишка, etc.

These nouns just happen to look like they are feminine, but they "act" like usual masculine nouns and should not be confused with nouns of common gender.

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'A' declension, masculine noun: From 野

Именительный	па'па	па'пы
Родительный	па'пы	па'п
Дательный	па'пе	па'пам
Винительный одуш.	па'пу	па'п
Творительный	па'пой, па'пою	па'пами
Предложный	па'пе	па'пах

Adjectives are in typical masculine pattern eg доброму папе

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So... "крошка" belongs to the first category

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i don't think so, unlike the listed nouns крошка denotes a unique object which has nothing to do with humans, namely a crumb, therefore it can only have one gender

in relation to humans it's only a metaphor and feminine metaphors usually aren't applied to men and vice versa

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Originally Posted by LXNDR

i don't think so, unlike the listed nouns
крошка denotes a unique object which has nothing to do with humans, namely a crumb, therefore it can only have one gender

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You are mixing things.
"Крошка" as a crumb is one thing, and "крошка" as a quality of a person is another. The latter it's an emotionally charged word that implies a tiny size (often figuratively, just like "baby" in English does not necessarily mean that the person is young) and corresponds to "крохотный" ("tiny"). They have different grammatical qualities, and it's represented in dictionaries:

крошка
I м. и ж.
(о ребёнке) little one
II ж.
(хлеба и т.п.) crumb

It says clearly that "крошка" in its first meaning can be either masculine or feminine, i.e. of common gender.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

крошка
I м. и ж.
(о ребёнке) little one
II ж.
(хлеба и т.п.) crumb

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Which dictionary or online resource did you get this from? Just out of interest as it seems to give more information than Wiktionary which I have been using.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

You are mixing things.
"Крошка" as a crumb is one thing, and "крошка" as a quality of a person is another. The latter it's an emotionally charged word that implies a tiny size (often figuratively, just like "baby" in English does not necessarily mean that the person is young) and corresponds to "крохотный" ("tiny"). They have different grammatical qualities, and it's represented in dictionaries:

крошка
I м. и ж.
(о ребёнке) little one
II ж.
(хлеба и т.п.) crumb

It says clearly that "крошка" in its first meaning can be either masculine or feminine, i.e. of common gender.

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i think the second meaning is derived from the original meaning, which i think is a crumb
i'm not talking about the variety of modern meanings of the word but about the primal one

if you review the words in the common gender list, none of them describes insentient object, these will represent either human characteristic, profession or occupation

adjectives крохотный and крошечный impose a quality of a crumb onto the objects they describe, which if you break it down means 'small like a crumb'

the verb крошить doesn't mean 'to make small' but 'to break something into tiny pieces (or crumbs)'

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Originally Posted by ShakeyX

Which dictionary or online resource did you get this from? Just out of interest as it seems to give more information than Wiktionary which I have been using.

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I use ABBY Lingvo (a desktop edition for 20 languages), it's my favorite dictionary.
They have an online service which is pretty good, though some features (for example, explanatory dictionaries) are not free:
http://www.lingvo.ua/ru/Translate/ru-en/крошка

Don't forget to try links "Примеры" (Examples) and "Словосочетания" (Set expressions) under the search for every word.

http://gramota.ru/slovari/ http://gramota.ru/slovari/dic/?word=...F8%EA%E0&all=x

Орфографический словарь

крошка, -и, р. мн. -шек, ж. (действие; крохотный кусочек, частичка, также собир.), м. и ж. (малютка)


Большой толковый словарь

1. КРОШКА, -и; мн. род. -шек, дат. -шкам; ж.
1.
к Крошить (1 зн.). Табак собственной крошки. К. и сушка цикория.
2.
Мельчайшая часть, маленький кусочек какого-л. вещества. Хлебные крошки. Крошки пирога. С утра даже крошки во рту не было. Хлеба в доме нет ни крошки.
3. собир.
Сыпучее вещество, состоящее из частиц чего-л. раздробленного. Отделать стены мраморной крошкой. Торфяная к.
4.
Самое малое количество чего-л. Цепляться за любую крошку радости. < Крошку,
в зн. нареч. Разг.
Очень мало, чуть-чуть. Крошечка (см.).

2. КРОШКА, -и; м. и ж. Разг.
1.
Предмет или существо небольшого размера.
2.
Маленький ребёнок. Наша к. уже спит?
3.
Ласковое обращение (к ребёнку, женщине). * Приходи, моя милая к., Приходи посидеть вечерок (Фет). < Крошечка, -и; м. и ж. Уменьш.-ласк. Крошечка-Хаврошечка (персонаж русской народной сказки).


Словарь синонимов

крошка см. дитя, малость, карлик

Just a note that "моя крошка" gives 159000 hits in Google, while "мой крошка" gives only 17200. This word applied to a masculine person sounds really awkward to the native ear. I would not use it so. I would choose the word "малыш" when referring a masculine person.

This is a piece of a poem by Vladimir Mayakovskiy:

Крошка-сын к отцу пришел,
и спросила кроха:
- Что такое хорошо
и что такое плохо?

Notice that to use masculine gender the poet had to attach "-сын" to the word "крошка". Notice also that in the second line he uses non-diminutive form of the word, "кроха" in feminine gender even though he refers to a boy.

Next verbose thread would be about Малютка :yahoo:

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Originally Posted by Anixx

This is a piece of a poem by Vladimir Mayakovskiy:

Крошка-сын к отцу пришел,
и спросила кроха:
- Что такое хорошо
и что такое плохо?

Notice that to use masculine gender the poet had to attach "-сын" to the word "крошка". Notice also that in the second line he uses non-diminutive form of the word, "кроха" in feminine gender even though he refers to a boy.

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Poets are known for bending rules for better rhyme or rhythm, so poems and songs are not 100% reliable in this regard (word stresses in poems are particularly "fluid"). But I agree that "спросила кроха" sounds natural enough, even if it's incorrect, strictly speaking.

Still, the question was if "сладкий крошка" is possible from grammatical point of view. It is, even if it might sound weird.

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Originally Posted by LXNDR

in relation to humans it's only a metaphor and feminine metaphors usually aren't applied to men and vice versa

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Metaphors often doesn't depend on the gender of the person they applied to. "Она тормоз", "профессор - дубина".

- Ты мой заспанный чебурашка.
- Не, не: чебурафка.
- Чебурафка :)
- И вроде вот это так мило, да, но так противно!
- Да. И то, что ты заспанный небритыш-чебурашка - это натяжка.
http://youtu.be/PDNX8aIOIyM

Question: Can you use крошка in a culinary sense (as in "покрыть котлеты кошками"), or would панировка be more usual there?

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

as in "покрыть котлеты кошками"

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панировать?

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Question: Can you use крошка in a culinary sense (as in "покрыть котлеты кошками"), or would панировка be more usual there?

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обвалять в крошках/в сухарях.

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обвалять в крошках/в сухарях.

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Aha, thanks! Я очень люблю готовить "русские котлеты" вместо обыкновенных гамбургеров! (Гамбургеры обожаю если они жареные на мангале или костёре, а если приходится жарить в сковороде на плите, то котлеты получаются вкуснее гамбургеров, по моему.)

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Aha, thanks! Я очень люблю готовить "русские котлеты" вместо обыкновенных гамбургеров! (Гамбургеры обожаю если , когда они жареные на мангале или костёре на костре, а если приходится жарить в на сковороде на плите, то котлеты получаются вкуснее гамбургеров, по-моему.)

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Originally Posted by Полуношник

Metaphors often doesn't depend on the gender of the person they applied to. "Она тормоз", "профессор - дубина".

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agreed, i was talking outta side of my neck making that statement

since we're discussing applicability of adjectives in the opposite gender, your examples are right on point, we wouldn't say профессор - старый дубина, but профессор - старая дубина or not Она - тормоз, но симпатичная тормоз, but Она - тормоз, но симпатичный тормоз

so the adjectives follow the gender of the metaphor word which perfectly applies to the word крошка, and incidentally the examples here

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2. КРОШКА, -и; м. и ж. Разг.
1.
Предмет или существо небольшого размера.
2.
Маленький ребёнок. Наша к. уже спит?
3.
Ласковое обращение (к ребёнку, женщине). * Приходи, моя милая к., Приходи посидеть вечерок (Фет). < Крошечка, -и; м. и ж. Уменьш.-ласк. Крошечка-Хаврошечка (персонаж русской народной сказки).

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only corroborate that since in none of the phrases adjective or possessive pronoun is in masculine