Thread: когда-нибудь + н.в.

I see two phrases where когда-нибудь is followed by verbs of н.в. It will not be better in these phrases to use c.в. ? The phrases are:
a) Вы когда-нибудь брали на время какую-нибудь одежду у своего другa ? (better: взяли ?)
b) Вы когда-нибудь оказывали какую-нибудь серьёзную yслyгy своему другу ? (better: оказали ?)
Unless the sense of the phrases was: You used to take for a time ...? You used to assist your friend ....?
Thanks

Originally Posted by radomir

I see two phrases where когда-нибудь is followed by verbs of н.в. It will not be better in these phrases to use c.в. ? The phrases are:
a) Вы когда-нибудь брали на время какую-нибудь одежду у своего другa ? (better: взяли ?)
b) Вы когда-нибудь оказывали какую-нибудь серьёзную yслyгy своему другу ? (better: оказали ?)

Oh, I suppose I'll take a crack at these, though I'm not a native Russian speaker, so others can shoot me down if I get it wrong.

One of the uses of imperfective verb is to express the idea of "nullified" action. That is, when one does something and then undoes it, you use the imperfective verb. So in example "a," the fact that you returned the borrowed item later makes it a nullfied action, and the imperfective verb fits.

Another example. You walk into a room and see that the window is open. Since the result of opening is still valid, you ask, «Кто открыл окно?» But if you walk into the room in wintertime, and it's cold in the room so obviously someone opened it and let the heat out, but it's closed now, then you ask, «Кто открывал окно?» because the result has been nullified.

In example "b" there is something else going on. One description of Russian suggests that you use the imperfective verb as a default form, only using a perfective verb when three things apply simultaneously:

1- The action must be completed at the point in discourse; and
2- the action must be a one-time action; and
3- the result of the action must be relevant to the point of discourse.

So in the case of "b," the question is whether you have done a major service for a friend; it's not focusing on the result of the service, hence condition 3 is lacking and we use the default form (imperfective) instead.

Actually, example "a" can be explained by either the "nullifed action" concept or by the "must meet all three criteria" concept.

Let the shooting begin!

Originally Posted by radomir

a) Вы когда-нибудь брали на время какую-нибудь одежду у своего другa ? (better: взяли ? no, it's incorrect)
b) Вы когда-нибудь оказывали какую-нибудь серьёзную yслyгy своему другу ? (better: оказали ? no, it's incorrect)

I don't know why
We just say it this way.

It seems beeing no shooting Thanks for your explanations. I copy what you say and add it to the lesson "Aspects of verbs". Thanks again

Originally Posted by radomir

It seems beeing no shooting Thanks for your explanations. I copy what you say and add it to the lesson "Aspects of verbs". Thanks again

That looks good. I just like to add my own thoughts.

I cannot imagine any situation when I use perfective verbs with "когда-нибудь". They seem to be incompatible.
Thus, I would say that this type of question implies imperfective, when you ask someone "Did it ever happen to you..."

Basically the expression когда-нибудь is a very unspecific time expression. The action in question could have taken place once, twice, a hundred times or never. Thus a perfective verb is incompatible as it refers to concrete action, whereas когда-нибудь suggests only the possibility of an action.

>1- The action must be completed at the point in discourse;

Не нужно ли модифицировать это правило, так может относиться к действиям, выраженным глаголами с.в. непрошлого времени (perfective nonpast = pf. present)?

Originally Posted by chaika

>1- The action must be completed at the point in discourse;

Не нужно ли модифицировать это правило, так может относиться к действиям, выраженным глаголами с.в. непрошлого времени (perfective nonpast = pf. present)?

Whenever you try to write a linguistic rule in just a few words, you end up compressing a lot of meaning into those words. By "point of discourse" the rule has in mind "from the point of view of the time of the narrative." So in an example like «Папа позавтракает и пойдёт на работу», the event позавтракает is completed before the action of пойдёт.

The perfective/imperfective distinctions are among the trickiest for non-native speakers, particularly the общефактическое значение несовершенного вида. Trying to come up with words that will make sense to English-speaking students is quite difficult. I really appreciate what the authors of the "three conditions" rule have done, but the rule does take some explaining to say what they have in mind.

Oh, one other thing. There is no such thing as "perfective present" in Russian. There is perfective past tense. There is perfective future tense. The imperfective vs. perfective system is asymmetical in the present tense, having only an imperfective.

All the best, Don.