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Что такое картавит?
Урусов — подпольный ходатай по делам. Картавит.
Урусов (читает очень картаво). «...Согласно каковым пунктам, уступаю в полную собственность Фомину Василию Елисеевичу извозопромышленное заведение моё в составе, как поименованно...»
Hmm... some reasearch indicates: speaking with the trilling of 'r'
I've also seen it defined as someone who trouble pronouncing the letters L and R, which doesn't make alot of sense to me unless the speaker is Japanese. :D
Japanese can pronounce the letter 'R' fine.
How do you say "thank you" in Japanese? :wink:
Картавить is to pronounce the "r" or "l" in Russian atypically. This is not always due to speech defect. The old Russian aristocracy sometimes pronounced the "r" differently, which is sometimes attributed to the French or German influence of their tutors since they were often brought up multilingually with multiple tutors in their households.
I'm told that Ленин сам картавил на «р». This is sometimes reflected in writing by replacing the «р» with a «г», which led a Russian friend of mine to snort and chuckle when she pointed out that Lenin never said «всё равно» but rather «всё гaвно».
Take a look at «Анекдоты о Ленине» at ru.wikipedia.org, which also mentions this.
I know a man who is the descendant of Russian aristocracy raised in England. Someone mocked him for his British accent when speaking Russian. Another listen rebuked the mocker saying that he had missed the point entirely. The accent he was hearing wasn't a British accent, but rather the old aristocratic pronunciation, which had been preserved in this family. His sibilants were curious, too. That is, his ш, щ and ж were pronounced differently than current Muscovite dialect.
Sometimes Russian children aren't able to pronounce [р] correctly and in most cases they картавят.
I wan't able to do that until 11 y.o. :oops: :oops: :oops:
Arigato or Aligato or somewhere in between, depending on who says it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
That's the whole point.
What's the whole point?
That's unfair! It wasn't easy to find the very place in the thick book (The Bleak House) where the cousin of Sir Leicester Dedlock speaks perfectly картавя and then be disappointed finding that in the original text he doesn't at all, because he does only in Russian translation but not in the original Dickens' novel! :(
I love when reading the book I encounter someone картавый, it's always so funny. At least untill the moment when you meet such people in the real life. Especially when you just have to have an earnest air. :lol:
Oh, and I кортавлю a little and can't say л or р properly. :lol:
Eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
My point was that Japanese can say 'R', and I prove it by using a Japanese word that contains an 'R'.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Then you repeat the word and call it the whole point.
I am soliciting more elaboration on what you call the whole point.
:lol:
[quote=kalinka_vinnie]My point was that Japanese can say 'R', and I prove it by using a Japanese word that contains an 'R'.Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
Then you repeat the word and call it the whole point.
I am soliciting more elaboration on what you call the whole point.
:lol:[/quote:20z7o8yh]
But the Japanese R is not an R, it is a sound we don't have in English or Russian or, I would wager, Norwegian, and is pronounced somewhere between an R and an L. That's why Japanese people can have trouble distinguishing Rs from Ls when they start speaking foreigns languages.
Which is, I think, what sperk meant.
So when you said "How do you say "thank you" in Japanese?" you were not even contradicting what sperk said, never mind proving it incorrect, even though you evidently thought you were doing both.
Well, the thing is it is the Chinese that can't say 'R', but the Japanese can. At least my Japanese friends could!
The thing is nothing Vinnie. Having a difficulty in distinguish L and R has been noted in speakers of both Japenese and Mandarin, as well as in every other language containing sounds that don't directly correspond to R and L.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
There's even a word for it: Engrish
Usual wikipeadia caveats apply, but from the link:
Quote:
The term originates from the fact that Japanese (as well as several other East Asian languages) does not have separate sounds for R and L. In Japanese the R sound is pronounced as an alveolar lateral flap (ɾ), articulated with the tongue flapped against the hard palate behind the front teeth, so that it sounds like a Spanish soft R. Because Japanese does not have a separate equivalent for the English L, native Japanese speakers not fluent in English often mispronounce English words containing the letter L. While the term mocks the accent, it is used mainly without malice in reference to humorous misuses, puns, and double entendres within written English, not difficulties in pronunciation. For example, "election" might be pronounced "erection".
Note that even though the "L" and "R" error is often attributed to Chinese, in reality, there are distinct "L" and "R" sounds in standard spoken Chinese (Mandarin). Various dialects of the Chinese languages, however do not have such clear separation with a general pattern being the further south in the country one travels, the more likely one is to see the "L" and "N" sounds confused (central China) or even the "L", "N" and "R" sounds freely alternated (south of the Yangtze River/Changjiang).
Lucky them. I don't think anyone has posited that all Japanese people find this difficult, any more than you meant all Chinese people do.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
I, of course, give up, but let me add that, contrary to popular belief, according to the above quote, Japanese don't have trouble pronouncing 'R', but pronouncing 'L'. I for some reason though Sperk was saying the opposite. Did I win the award for the most commas yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
You did commas great. The audience clap you. :oops:
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtyom
Yeah, sperk's post might have been better phrased "trouble distinguishing between..." rather than "trouble pronouncing...." if he had actually been talking about that particular phenomenon, but he wasn't, he was talking about the definition of Картавить in Russian and only alluded to the Japanese pronunciation of L and R to make a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
And anyway, none of that makes it any less nonsensical to use a Japanese word that doesn't contain an R to prove that Japanese people can pronounce an R.
It would be like saying that Russian people don't have trouble pronouncing the English letter i because their word for open is otkrit.
I guess that's what I really meant. Thanks. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by xRoosterx
Maybe so, but the point with "arigato" was to use a Japanese word that contains something equivalent the english "r' sound, which it does (or as Wiki said, a spanish soft 'r').
I understand your point, I just disagree with its validity :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
Japanese categorically does not have somoething equivalent to the English R sound, it has a group of five phonemes that each begin with a lateral apical postalveolar flap, which to English ears can sound close to an R, or an L, or a D, or anywhere in between, depending on the vowel sound that follows it or on the regional accent of the speaker. For the sake of simplicity it has at some point been given a constant value of R to make life easier when transliterating into and out of Japanese, but that does not make it an R. In fact the word you chose, ありがとう, contains り which is one of the two "R" phonemes that sound least like an R, (the other being ろ).
Whoa, I am impressed. Homage, brother. How come you know so much about Japanese? Usually people get fooled into thinking I know what I am talking about, but you sure have fooled me!
I studied Japanese for about four years in the late 90s, and spoke it better then than I speak Russian now (which isn't saying much, I admit). For the last year-ish though I never really had any opportunity to use or practice it, so I was just treading water in order to just forget as little as possible, and I got bored. That was why I started trying to learning Russian in the first place, just for a break from Japanese.
But, learning a bit of Russian led to me getting chatting in a bar to the lass who would eventually become Mrs Scotcher and the more that relationship progressed the less incentive I had to go back tp Japanese, so now I've forgotten most of what I knew (or at least can't recall it off the top of my head without unintentionally substituting Russia words without even realising it).
А мне вот кажется, что Вертинский картавил.
Если верно - его записи можно послушать.
По-моему, это общеизвестный факт. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
Наверное, и Пушкин картавил. Вся белая кость с младых ногтей по-французски лопотала.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
Я просто думал, что всё напутал.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
А Пушкин... Ну, думаю, тогда бы про него многократно написано было, что картавил. Что поэт был - это точно, а что картавил - это я не слышал такого. :lol:
А кто бы смог написать? Только такой же картавый, а для них это было в порядке вещей. =) Остальные неграмотные были. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
Да русские тогда вообще были либо картавые, либо неграмотные. :lol:
А если ты грамотный - изволь нарочно картавить, даже если ты вовсе не картавый, а то скажут mauvais tone!
И чего ж я такой неграмотный! :lol:
http://www.russiandvd.com/store/album_a ... Fnumber=17
Поёт Александр Вертинский
Иная песня
Скоро день начнется и конец ночам
И душа вернётся к милым берегам,
Птицей, что устала петь в чужом краю,
И, вернувшись, вдруг узнала Родину свою.
Много спел я песен, сказок и баллад,
Только был невесел их печальный лад.
И не будет в мире песни той звончей,
Что спою теперь я милой Родине своей!
И настанет время, и прикажет мать
Всунуть ногу в стремя иль винтовку взять
Я не затоскую, слёзы не пролью, а совсем иную песню запою.
А моя винтовка или пулемёт - верьте песню пропоёт.
Перед этой песней враг не устоит
Всем давно известно, как она звучит.
И за все ошибки расплачусь я ей.
Жизнь отдам с улыбкой Родине своей.
Картавит старательно!
Вот - слышите, вы, теперь, как надо картавить?!
Лампада, спасибо тебе за помощь!