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Hello.
Кому и знать горечь зависимости, как не бедной воспитаннице знатной старухи?
Does it translate word-by-word to something like "To whom is known bitterness of dependancy, if not to ..."? I had never seen such use of the word знать. Is it common and can you do it with other verbs?
Thanks!
(У)знать горечь of smth is very common (maybe a bit bookish though).
I do not quite understand what confused you.
What confuses me is the 'кому'. Also I think I did not post in the right subforum, is there any way to correct this ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Well, using dative like that is very common in Russian... I'm not sure I can explain it well, but I can provide some examples:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Мне/тебе/им виднее = Мне/тебе/им лучше знать = I/you/they [should] know it better.
Кому идти за пивом? = Who is to go for buying beer?
Тебе решать = It's up to you.
Zubr, infinitives sometimes take dative subjects. Here is an example from Гроза:
«Буре быть». “There will be a storm.”
Well I guess this is my first encounter with yet another cool feature of russian.
Is there a difference in meaning between
кому идти за пивом and кому хочется идти за пивом
or
Тебе решать and Тебе надо решать
?
Does it make sense to say that these forms are plain modal constructions, except without modal adverb?
It seems to me that "кому идти за пивом?" presumes that someone is going to go, and we're just figuring out who that will be, while "кому хотется идти за пивом?" asks if anyone has a desire to go. I'll admit to being kind of new at this, but it seems to me that the first is more direct, and more "Russian", while the second is more passive and more "American".Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
In the second, there seems to be a clear difference in meaning, because "Тебе решать" seems to say "it's up to you," or "the choice is yours," while "Тебе надо решать" adds necessity and says that "you need to make a decision". The second adds a sense of consequence.
кому идти за пивом? - whose turn to go is it? who should go?
кому хочется идти за пивом? - who wants to go?
More specifically, in this context it asks if there are any volunteers to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by randem
Also in this context, the verb "идти" doesn't sound good. It would better be "сходить" or "пойти".
The phrase as it is, with "идти", is perfect in a different kind of context, as a rhetorical question meaning "nobody wants to go".
Thanks for all your answers. All this is very interesting. :-)
Ok I should have thought of this before. How can you use this if the verb you need already governs a dative complement? As in "Guys whose turn is it to help me with ... ?"
Кому это мне помочь избавиться от трупа?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Кому и помочь мне избавиться от трупа, как не тебе? - "Кому и + inf." is standard expression. It means "Who will do it, if not [you]?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Кому хочется помочь мне избавиться от трупа. - "Кому" is a complement for "хочется" here.
Кому помочь мне избавиться - wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Кому сегодня помогать мне избавляться от трупа? - OK, more or less. I think it has to be an imperfective verb.
Proverb: Чему быть, того не миновать. Something like "one can not avoid his fate".
I think this kind of phrase expresses the fatality of the situation. Кому идти за пивом? - Who is destined to go for beer? Who's lot is to go? :D
I realised just now that this actually makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
But it means something different: To whom should I help... (Who is it that I should help...). "Это" is unnecessary; it emphasises some kind of emotion, like irritation or irony.
I see all this is subtle and I won't cope with it without heavy grammatical insight. Hope this topic is dealt with in Wade's book.
At least the use of кому и seems straightforward, I'll just go look for some more examples and it will do.
Thanks all.
I've heard of something similar with известен e.g. ей он известен. Знать is just used with the dative sometimes; not sure if there's a grammatical rule to explain it. BTW, get that Wade book, it's great. :good: Don't quite know how I would research this question though (in Wade.) :search:
Let me know... = Дай мне знать...
Almost word by word correspondence.
Ему не ответить этот вопрос. He can't answer this question.
Ему не отвечать этот вопрос. It is not for him to answer this question.
Вам сейчас нам отвечать за ваши преступления. You are now to answer (before us) for your crimes
Am I doing it right?
The phrase itself is correct but rather sonorous. Like if he can't answer this question because he left this world forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
He will never answer this question any more.Quote:
Ему не отвечать на этот вопрос. It is not for him to answer this question.
ОК. But the style is sonorous. Almost like "Thou art now..." :)Quote:
Вам сейчас отвечать перед нами за ваши преступления. You are now to answer (before us) for your crimes
Thanks it-ogo. You're like a black box -- I put the sentence in, you translate, and I get to understand how you do the job. It's quite challenging. :-D
I'll start jotting down every sentence of this sort I encounter. Eventually, I'll get some feeling. Or hang myself in despair.
Anyway.
Что мне делать? What am I to do? Question asked to some superior authority, like Gods or your dietician.
Что мне сделать, чтобы ты перестала меня мучить?
Тебе этого не понять? Can't you understand this (impossibility) ?
Тебе этого не понимать? I have no guess for this one, even assuming it is indeed something one can say.
Not necessarily. It can mean "He won't answer the question, while it is too difficult for him," but the phrase is a bit bookish anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
This interpretation is possible but I wouldn't understand the sentence in this way. Zubr's translation is OK for me, although my variant was "Nobody is going ask him this question, he doesn't have to answer this question (so he can relax), we have to answer it and we have to think what to answer".Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Ему-то хорошо, ему на этот вопрос не отвечать. А вот нам…
И что это за похоронные настроения? )
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
It's OK.Quote:
Что мне делать? What am I to do?
What should I do for you to stop torturing me?Quote:
Что мне сделать, чтобы ты перестала меня мучить?
Yes. And the affirmative sentence is also possible.Quote:
Тебе этого не понять? Can't you understand this (impossibility) ?
Тебе этого не понять. - You won't understand me/her etc. You can't understand it. You're not able to understand this (e. g. because you have other moral values, or while you have never been in such situation).
Don't try, it's wrong. )Quote:
I have no guess for this one
There is a good and common informal phrase, "кому-либо с кем-либо детей не крестить." E. g.
Тебе с ним детей не крестить. ≈ Don't care about what he can think/say about you, he won't play an important role in your life, you're not going to marry him, right?
It can be used in plural too:
нам с вами детей не крестить
etc.
Кстати, Zubr, ты девушка или парень? :-) Скажи, пожалуйста, чтобы я знала, как к тебе обращаться (или напомни, если я уже спрашивала).
Black boxing is my favorite sport. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
"What should I do?" This one is good everywhere and within any style. I think in questions this phrase has no style specificity and is quite general. Что мне делать? Как нам быть? Где мне поставить машину? Зачем тебе так долго спать?Quote:
Что мне делать? What am I to do? Question asked to some superior authority, like Gods or your dietician.
This one is hardly a question.Quote:
Тебе этого не понять? Can't you understand this (impossibility) ?
Тебе этого не понять! - You will never understand it!
I can not imagine the situation when it can have a sense.Quote:
Тебе этого не понимать? I have no guess for this one, even assuming it is indeed something one can say.
Ladies and gentlement, please meet my worst nightmare -- two russian-speaking fellows understanding given samples of Russian in different ways. :cry:
You meant "because it is too difficult" right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Is there a way to make the initial sentence less ambiguous? Playing with word order or putting some "это"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
"Это не ему отвечать на этот вопрос." может? :)
Great, I like such idioms. Мне с тобой детей не крестить. Yes I can perfectly imagine myself saying this -- now I'll go and look for conflict situations with innocent Russians, and get a chance to use this phrase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Я парень, поэтому я выбрал имя "зубр" а не "зубровка". :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Also, did you use спрашивать because you were just supposing maybe you already asked? In case you knew you asked before, would you say "Я спросила уже давно, и потом забыла, ты девушка или парень. Ну, давай, скажи!"
(I'm not sure wether this needs some ли or not...)
Great. It seems these sentences remain grammatical if you remove the dative subject, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Thanks for being so helpful guys. :)
Сейчас придет кто-нибудь еще, и будет третье толкование. ))Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Right. Sorry, my English is not perfect. :-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
I don't like this one. And I think your first translation is OK and the most likely, if we don't have context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
I just wanted to show that not only one way of translating this sentence is possible. If you want it to have only one meaning, we need the context (not "это" or another word order), and I gave the example of possible one. BTW it is often better to translate dialogs (phrases used in particular situations), than words/sentences.
Of course, we can think of all possible word orders etc., but in this case the conversation may be endless. ))
Not, I wouldn't say this, some parts sound unnatural. )Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
(Yes, no "ли" here. Variants "ты парень или девушка" and "парень ты или девушка" are also possible.)
Yes, I didn't remember if I had asked you this question. But even in case I knew I asked before I would use"спрашивала."Quote:
you were just supposing maybe you already asked?
Кстати, Zubr, ты девушка или парень? :-) Я знаю, я тебя уже когда-то спрашивала, но не помню, что ты ответил(а). Извини.
"Ну давай" would sound impolite in this situation (I asked and then forgot the answer, it's my fault, so I am expected to apologise, not to say sth like "c'mon, guy, say it to me"). "Давай" sounds OK when you want to hurry somebody.
:thumbs:Quote:
Я парень, поэтому я выбрал имя "зубр" а не "зубровка". :wink:
Только не имя, а ник. ;)
Интересно, ник водка уже кем-то занят? :-D
I remember seeing here one guy with the nickname "белка" (not "бельчонок" or sth), so I just wanted to make sure. ;)
Hmmm... Word "зубр" have some meanings in Russian. Direct meaning is wisent, indirect meaning is accepted expert, guru (usually an old one).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zubr
Zubrovka -белорусская водка http://www.brestvodka.com/data/i-cat...-20-labelx.jpg
Good to know. По словарю, это также значит консервативный человек.Quote:
Originally Posted by it-ogo
Но я не знаю, насколько этот перевод точен. Je ne parle pas français. )Quote:
Originally Posted by Lingvo 12
Zaya, if you ever meet a frenchman who tells you this, and if the guy happens to be green and smelly, please remember this friendly advice: run, run for you life, for he is a 150-year-old zombie and very likely will eat your brain if he catches you. In fact, even if you are yourself a 150-year-old zombie, I think it's still safer to run away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaya
Also it seems the meanings are not exactly the same, because the french phrase means "We won't stay together that long" (doesn't imply that there won't be any business at all between the two). I guess that's what French Casanovas used to tell their friends about their last conquest met at the village ball, back then, 200 years ago. :)
:lol:
Thanks, now it's clear. :)