За что его благодарить?

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February 13th, 2011, 10:44 AM
tohca

За что его благодарить?

How do I translate this phrase? За что его благодарить?
Is it:
What is he thankful for? OR
What is there to thank him for?:dunno:
February 13th, 2011, 11:27 AM
alexsms

What is there to thank him for?
or

Why should i thank him? Why should we thank him? What for should we thank him?
February 13th, 2011, 02:05 PM
tohca

Thanks. So to say "What is he thankful for?" Can one say "За что он благодарит?"
February 13th, 2011, 02:23 PM
alexsms

If you follow all rules, благодарить is a transitive verb. So it requires that object be used.

So it should be said За что он ИХ благодарит? (what is he thankful for to them?)

or За что он ЕГО благодарит? (what is he thankful for to him?)
or За что он ЕЁ благодарит? (what is he thankful for to her?)
February 13th, 2011, 02:35 PM
tohca

What if the object is unknown (meaning there is no knowledge of gender or number)? Would it be OK to say,
За чего он благодарит?
February 13th, 2011, 05:18 PM
Seraph

?? За что он кому-нибудь благодарит? За что он благодарит кому-нибудь?

За что он не благодарит никому!
February 14th, 2011, 03:12 AM
tohca

Seems like this is a rather difficult concept to grasp hold of. Am not sure if I understand it clearly at the moment, but with time I'm sure I will ;).
February 14th, 2011, 10:33 AM
reibnitz

.. за что он благодарится.. ??? What should he be thankful for.... What is he giving thanks for....

правильно или нет ??
February 14th, 2011, 12:28 PM
alexsms

Ok, without the object it can be:

За что он благодарит? (but without object is sounds awkward, technically, this is incorrect)
or
За что он благодарен? (this sounds OK without the object, but still with object it'd be better)
(in real life we always know the situation, we know who thanks whom, so the object will be there in real life)

.. за что он благодарится.. ??? ?? За что он кому-нибудь благодарит? За что он благодарит кому-нибудь? - all is incorrect
February 14th, 2011, 03:03 PM
Throbert McGee

Isn't it possible to say simply: "За что ему благодарить?", or "Кого ему благодарить?", or "За что и кого ему благодарить?" ??

That is, using the dative as the "logical subject" of an infinitive -- the first question meaning "What is there for him be thankful for?", the second meaning "Whom should he be thankful to?", and the third combining them into a single question: "Whom should he be thankful to, and for what?"

Note that using the imperfective infinitive suggests a continuous state of gratitude, while the perfective suggests a one-time act of thanking: so "Кого ему благодарить?" could be translated "Whom should he (generally) feel grateful to?", but "Кого ему поблагодарить?" could be translated "Whom should he say 'Thank you!' to?"

The possible negative answers to these questions might include:

Не за что ему благодарить. (There's nothing for him to be thankful for.)
Некого ему благодарить. (There's nobody for him to be thankful to.)

(Note that syllable stress in "не за что" and "некого" must be on the "не" -- "ни за что" and "никого" have different meanings, and are spelled with an unstressed "и"!)

And the positive answers might include:

Ему за много благодарить! (There's a lot for him to be thankful for!)
Ему многих людей благодарить! (There are many people he should be thankful to!)
Ему поблагодарить Павла за подарок! (He ought to thank Pavel for the gift!)

(Native Russians, please correct this if I'm wrong!)
February 14th, 2011, 04:34 PM
alexsms

Hi, Throbert,

Не за что ему благодарить. (There's nothing for him to be thankful for.) Better - Ему не за что кого-либо благодарить.
Некого ему благодарить. (There's nobody for him to be thankful to.) Better - Ему некого благодарить.
Ему за много благодарить! (There's a lot for him to be thankful for!) Much better - Он должен быть им (ему, ей) за многое благодарен!
Ему многих людей благодарить! (There are many people he should be thankful to!) Much better - Он должен быть благодарен многим людям!
Ему поблагодарить Павла за подарок! (He ought to thank Pavel for the gift!) Better - Он должен поблагодарить Павла за подарок.

"Кого ему благодарить?", or "За что и кого ему благодарить?" - these are good ways of saying, sound Russian.
"За что ему благодарить?" - here it's not quite clear whom s/he is possibly not thankful to. Possible way is "За что ему их благодарить?"

The difference between "Кого ему благодарить?" and "Кого ему поблагодарить?" is explained perfectly.
February 14th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Throbert McGee

Thanks for the explanations, alexsms! But one question:

Quote:

"За что ему благодарить?" - here it's not quite clear whom s/he is possibly not thankful to. Possible way is "За что ему их благодарить?"

If you say "За что ему их благодарить?", doesn't this logically exclude "Ему некого и не за что благодарить." as a possible answer?

In order to emphasize that "nobody, no one" might be an answer to the question, while still using a direct object after the transitive verb, would it be better to say "За что ему кого-либо благодарить?"
February 14th, 2011, 05:25 PM
alexsms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

If you say "За что ему их благодарить?", doesn't this logically exclude "Ему некого и не за что благодарить. as a possible answer?

This could be a possible answer (not excluded), but the most expected answer in this very case would be "Ему их не за что благодарить."

"За что ему кого-либо благодарить?" - this variant might be possible;hm, now i think the following sounds better "За что ему кого-то благодарить?" (this i think is closest to real life, it's like 'Why should he be thankful to anybody?'
February 14th, 2011, 06:30 PM
Throbert McGee

Благодарю вас за объяснения, alexsms!

One other thing for tohca -- remember that you can use the (unstressed) particle же after the word you wish to emphasize:

За что же его благодарить? = WHAT is there to thank him for? or WHY should we thank him?
За что его же благодарить? = What is there to thank HIM for? or Why should we thank HIM?
February 15th, 2011, 04:03 AM
tohca

Благодарю, Throbert и alexsms, за объяснения и примеры. Теперь более ясно.
February 16th, 2011, 01:14 PM
Oxygent

Quote:

Originally Posted by tohca

Благодарю, Throbert и alexsms, за объяснения и примеров. Теперь более ясно.

Quick remark - за объяснения и примеры (don't forget about the declension), also "Теперь более ясно" sounds incomplete, "Теперь стало понятней" sounds better here (at least I think so).
February 18th, 2011, 11:15 AM
John_Douglas

Just try to translate the phrases into English and you'll see why some of them don't make sense.

You can't say "Why should he thank?" or "For what does he thank?" because the verb "to thank" needs a direct object.

благодарить is equivalent to the English "to thank"

"to be thankful" in Russian is быть благодарен.
February 18th, 2011, 12:28 PM
Oxygent

Quote:

быть благодарен

быть благодарным ;)
March 19th, 2011, 07:16 PM
RussianCause

Can someone explain the verbal adjective used here?

Он должен быть благодарен многим людям!

I thought when you used the -ен ending, the subject it's describing is the one that the thanking is being done to. It's using the passive voice. Would you use быть благодарящим. And isn't благодарен past tense?

I'm so confused.